From vumip1@gmail.com Fri Apr 2 09:58:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB95C3A69D5 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:58:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.133 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.133 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pIDuFPKWa1oe for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f177.google.com (mail-yx0-f177.google.com [209.85.210.177]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E054B3A67EF for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe7 with SMTP id 7so95516yxe.19 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:59:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:received:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=JrURaRB6hyyfGZ6N41XL7uzPnDJ/p6M0u8Ou4MxmaPU=; b=nKvHUkOxFtDA3yJZWfNhNMVwZGLNdnF/IWTD4NDZ6gRnOdjxjiGNTsnFAHaIXDpm/F HKpM8KR0ZxcobSCLqPAMvbt8hgiXs+Oivax2S/FAdqHWYmhLdO88C/xN1SVAxwl+Gvep iWZObKsbM0r49sX+1gL1TDI/NL9yxAu3M1uPg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=VHA6oVP+1cwMCPNEC/8+IZNANs1LUQqTTM8WWmztA4UjfFR5+75tpfUotm+rwiKa/a gJmXguEF+JLUwUMBU6I445s0pO9TOElfQRTOHcmZZuuPp7FQYh327ks7fzZ5Yf+2Rwti tV63qlMp6raklQDcpspo9xvxDfdyPtTDIfjjU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.168.20 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:59:14 -0400 Received: by 10.150.131.12 with SMTP id e12mr2967099ybd.237.1270227554599; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Bhumip Khasnabish To: clouds@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd487702d01f0048343e6ca Subject: [clouds] Fwd: Clouds bar BoF Preso Slides (IETF-77, 25March2010) X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:58:49 -0000 --000e0cd487702d01f0048343e6ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, Below please find the slides (texts, web links, etc.) that we used during IETF-77 Clouds bar BoF. As we discussed during the session, we plan to conduct a survey of Cloud-based systems and services, and prepare a report for presenting durin= g IETF-78 in Maastricht, Netherlands (July 25-30, 2010). I plan to publish an outline (proposal) of that Survey Report and the notes from the bar BoF session very soon. Thank you very much for your continued interest and contributions. Bhumip Khasnabish (vumip1@gmail.com) Clouds bar BoF Convener ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ IETF-77 Clouds bar BoF clouds@ietf.org Please send comments to Bhumip Khasnabish (vumip1@gmail.com ) Clouds bar BoF Convener Pacific B room (Ballroom level, 2nd floor) Hilton Anaheim, CA, USA 11:30 AM, Thursday, March 25, 2010 *****************Slide-2************************* What is a Cloud-based System? =95 Cloud-based systems are conveniently-connected modular blocks of resources =96 Both physical and virtual modularizations of resources are possibl= e =96 For this discussion, the resources include computing (CPU), communications (bandwidth), memory (storage), management, database, software, applications, services, interconnectivity, etc. =96 The objective is to make the resources available ubiquitously for mission-specific applications and services in order to support the ultimate level of privacy/security, scalability and reliability cost-effectively and without the headache of owning and maintaining the infrastructure =95 Clouds Discussion Archive: =96 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/clouds/current/maillist.html =95 NIST definition =96 *http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SNS/cloud-computing/ * *****************Slide-3************************* Service over Cloud =95 Utilize (stitch, weave, embroider, =85 ) the resources from Cloud= to provision, create, deliver, and maintain an End-to-End Service =95 Use the service only when you Need it =95 Pay only for the time duration and type of use of service (incl= . the costs for resources used) *****************Slide-4************************* Problem Statement =95 There is no Standard Reference Framework for Cloud Services =96 May need to develop a ref. framework =95 Need to define =96 Resources Availability Announcement Protocol =96 Cloud Resources Reservation Protocol =96 Cloud Resources Authentication Mechanism =96 Cloud Resources Privacy and Protection Mechanism =96 Cloud Resources API =95 Need Cloud Resources List/Pool Registrar (a server) =95 Universal Resources Description Language (URDL) *****************Slide-5************************* =95 Conduct a survey of Cloud-based systems and services, and prepare= a report =95 Determine what can be, and needs to be done in IETF/IRTF =96 Synergize with what are being done in e.g., APP/decade, IRTF/vnrg, TSV/nfsv4, OPS/netconf, .. =95 Define Scope and Charter, and discuss through the mailing list ( clouds@ietf.org) =95 Report back during the IETF-78 *****************Slide-6************************* Questions & Answers (including discussions, comments, concerns, issues, nex= t step, etc.) *****************Slide-7************************* The NEED for open Standards is reviewed, as discussed in the article from the following Website: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18172802/Cloud-Computing-Use-Cases-Whitepaper *****************Slide-8************************* Main concerns about Cloud Storage are as follows: - Security - Reliability - Performance - Cost - Regulatory Concerns *****************Slide-9************************* US Federal Gov. Security NEEDs (Source: IEEE ComSoc Region 1 Presentation) =95 Not all cyber threats are equal. They vary in terms of intentions= , technical sophistication, access methods, financing and tools and techniques. FIVE different levels of cyber threats can be considered: =96 *Cyber Vandalism*: Widespread non-targeted attacks over the Intern= et designed to cause disruption of services =96 *Cyber Crime* : Adversaries motivated by greed or ideology =96 *Cyber Surveillance** *: Broad based general surveillance conducte= d via internet-based attacks designed to gain large amounts of information held by the target =96 *Cyber Espionage*: Specifically targeted espionage using a number = of highly sophisticated approaches =96 *Cyber Warfare* : Multi-prong attacks to degrade or destroy an opponent=92s use of its information infrastructure *****************Slide-10************************* Service Providers=92 Security NEEDs (Source: IEEE ComSoc Region 1 Presentation) =95 TWELVE (12) layers of information services defense are used in a = US tier-1 service provider=92s Wireline networks. That company is merging the Business and Telecom carrier-class networks together to form the Wireline network. The 12 layers of security include the following.. =96 Physical =96 People =96 Compliance =96 Training =96 Business continuity planning =96 Operations =96 Governance =96 Policies =96 Procurement =96 Network communications =96 Software =96 Management ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --000e0cd487702d01f0048343e6ca Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,

Below please find the slides (texts, web links, etc.) that we = used during IETF-77 Clouds bar BoF.

As we discussed during the session, we plan to conduct a surve= y of Cloud-based systems and services, and prepare a report for presenting = during IETF-78 in Maastricht, Netherlands (July 25-30, 2010). I plan to publish an outline (proposal) of that Su= rvey Report and the notes from the bar BoF session very soon.

Thank you very much for your continued interest and contributi= ons.

Bhumip Khasnabish (vumip= 1@gmail.com)

Clouds bar BoF Convener

=A0

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++++++++

IETF-77 Clouds bar BoF
clouds@ietf.org

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Please send comments to

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Bhumip Khasnabish (vumip1@gmail.com )

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Clouds bar BoF Convener

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Pacific B room (Ballroom level, 2nd floor)=

<= font face=3D"Calibri">Hilton Anaheim, CA, USA=A0

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">11:30 AM, Thursday, March 25, 2010 =

=A0

=A0

*****************Slide-2*************************

What is a Cloud-based System?

=95Cloud-based systems are conveniently-connected modular blocks of resources=

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Both physical and virtual modularizations of resources ar= e possible

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 For this discussion, the resources include computing (CPU= ), communications (bandwidth), memory (storage), management, database, soft= ware, applications, services, interconnectivity, etc.

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The objective is to make the resources available ubiquito= usly for mission-specific applications and services in order to support the= ultimate level of privacy/security, scalability and reliability cost-effec= tively and without the headache of owning and maintaining the infrastructur= e

=A0

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Clouds Discussion Archive:

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 http://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/clouds/current/maillist.html

=A0

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 NIST definition

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SNS/cloud-computing/

=A0

=A0

*****************Slide-3*************************

Service over Cloud

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Utilize (stitch, weave, embroider, =85 ) the resources from Cloud to provis= ion, create, deliver, and maintain an End-to-End Service

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Use the service only when you Need it

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Pay only for the time duration and type of use of service=A0=A0 (incl. the costs for resources used)

=A0

*****************Slide-4*************************

Problem Statement

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = There is no Standard Reference Framework for Cloud Services

=96= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 May = need to develop a ref. framework

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Need to define

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Resources Availability Announcement Protocol

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Cloud Resources Reservation Protocol

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Cloud Resources Authentication Mechanism

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Cloud Resources Privacy and Protection Mechanism

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0Cloud Resources API

=95= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 N= eed Cloud Resources List/Pool Registrar (a server)

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Universal Resources Description Language (URDL)

=A0

*****************Slide-5*************************

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Conduct a survey of Cloud-based systems and services, and prepare a report<= /font>

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Determine what can be, and needs to be done in IETF/IRTF

=96= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Syne= rgize with what are being done in e.g., APP/decade, IRTF/vnrg, TSV/nfsv4, O= PS/netconf, ..

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Define Scope and Charter, and discuss through the mailing list (clouds@ietf.org)

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Report back=A0 during the IETF-78

=A0

*****************Slide-6*************************

Questions & Answers (including discussions, comments, conc= erns, issues, next step, etc.)

=A0

*****************Slide-7*************************

The NEED for open Standards is reviewed, as discussed in the a= rticle from the following Website:

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">http://www.scri= bd.com/doc/18172802/Cloud-Computing-Use-Cases-Whitepaper

=A0

*****************Slide-8*************************

Main concerns about Cloud Storage are as follows:

  • = Security
  • = Reliability
  • = Performance
  • = Cost
  • = Regulatory Concerns

=A0

=A0

*****************Slide-9*************************

US Federal Gov. Security NEEDs (Source: IEEE ComSoc Region 1 P= resentation)

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Not all cyber threats are equal. They vary in terms of intentions, technica= l sophistication, access methods, financing and tools and techniques. FIVE = different levels of cyber threats can be considered:

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Cyber Vandalism: Widespread non-targeted= attacks over the Internet designed to cause disruption of services<= /font>

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Cyber Crime : Adversaries motivated by g= reed or ideology

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Cyber Surveillance : Broad based = general surveillance conducted via internet-based attacks designed to gain = large amounts of information held by the target

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Cyber Espionage: Specifically targeted e= spionage using a number of highly sophisticated approaches

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Cyber Warfare : Multi-prong attacks to d= egrade or destroy an opponent=92s use of its information infrastructure

=A0

=A0

*****************Slide-10*************************

Service Providers=92 Security NEEDs (Source: IEEE ComSoc Regio= n 1 Presentation)

=95=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = TWELVE (12) layers of information services defense are used in a US tier-1 = service provider=92s Wireline networks.=A0 That company is mer= ging the Business and Telecom carrier-class networks together to form the W= ireline network.=A0 The 12 layers of security include the foll= owing..

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Physical

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 People

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Compliance

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Training

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Business continuity planning

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Operations

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Governance

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Policies

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Procurement

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Network communications

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Software

=96=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Management

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++++++++

=A0

--000e0cd487702d01f0048343e6ca-- From shore@arsc.edu Fri Apr 2 10:05:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171813A68EA for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.149, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fr+pt9Vdmx3E for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arsc.edu (mail1.arsc.edu [IPv6:2001:480:150:75::229]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF01F3A6951 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from viking-e0.arsc.edu (viking-e0.arsc.edu [IPv6:2001:480:150:860:223:32ff:feda:4a52]) by arsc.edu (20090828.ARSC) with ESMTP id o32H67ww024272; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:06:07 -0800 (AKDT) Message-Id: <3C1A6F64-68E1-42FE-82C8-5F8DDB008C6F@arsc.edu> From: Melinda Shore To: Bhumip Khasnabish In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:06:07 -0800 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-CanIt-Geo: No geolocation information available for 2001:480:150:860:223:32ff:feda:4a52 X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on IPv6:2001:480:150:75::167 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] [Spam: 0005 SpamScore] Fwd: Clouds bar BoF Preso Slides (IETF-77, 25March2010) X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:05:55 -0000 Are there minutes? Melinda From vumip1@gmail.com Fri Apr 2 10:09:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3B13A6A39 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.168 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.168 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zy5UtwwEa077 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f191.google.com (mail-iw0-f191.google.com [209.85.223.191]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7E23A6A64 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn29 with SMTP id 29so1695847iwn.17 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:09:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=doD43zOZDDHDZcCbMkBpowGDSuy5BwYkjy7mExkhb5E=; b=VeJYtfoNP4LWVSAF3OvdG2KgT9u4/H4iG3GCavn4LNfQI7KZvW7R1N1EHX8UOO1rti nTua5LKUHSXJxSwCQzBaI9FbqViAqCKPiuSokYEtQAJqAaQItLdgq+wnTj/2bGuHBK9S 8e3sZ1HBTZcOM6vbwB3Gs5Xrix7P9+b49gddg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=iTeSZctO2Gnwsdt7UyKQ4WxUitT1coRI3Rm7F003yqzz0HCvzlY0FZQFpYQLCnikCQ pWvMKtE0IbCiebqmu6HiNqV759pdImyagW/EYlPCQgSbGZ7kHYjZhzM3Nw2BNkswH6h4 NVyZ4EGCY17+kDPLcK13ETlmC45tjGB4aV6Gk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.168.20 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:09:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3C1A6F64-68E1-42FE-82C8-5F8DDB008C6F@arsc.edu> References: <3C1A6F64-68E1-42FE-82C8-5F8DDB008C6F@arsc.edu> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:09:28 -0400 Received: by 10.231.167.65 with SMTP id p1mr952760iby.20.1270228168142; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Bhumip Khasnabish To: Melinda Shore Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636d3448dbef0030483440a88 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] [Spam: 0005 SpamScore] Fwd: Clouds bar BoF Preso Slides (IETF-77, 25March2010) X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:09:19 -0000 --001636d3448dbef0030483440a88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, will publish the notes from the Clouds bar BoF session soon. Thanks an= d BR. Bhumip On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: > Are there minutes? > > Melinda > > --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --001636d3448dbef0030483440a88 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, will publish the notes from the Clouds bar BoF session soon. Than= ks and BR.
Bhumip


=A0
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Melinda Shore <shore@arsc.edu>= ; wrote:
Are there minutes?

Melinda




--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003= , bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhu= mip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the content of this e= mail if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9.
--001636d3448dbef0030483440a88-- From gene@alertlogic.com Tue Apr 6 06:06:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319653A68EF for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:06:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.336 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.336 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zwZnRv9y6ybs for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp131.dfw.emailsrvr.com (smtp131.dfw.emailsrvr.com [67.192.241.131]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850B43A6897 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay13.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id CA46D313109C for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 09:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com [67.192.133.192]) by relay13.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 8F3983130D5D for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 09:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 34093-MBX-C01.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.62]) by 152340-HUB02.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.196]) with mapi; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:05:59 -0500 From: Gene Golovinsky To: "clouds@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:05:57 -0500 Thread-Topic: Subscribe info? Thread-Index: AcrVieWtBoH8pheEREOO34ICLGs/YA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D410418960B1034093MBXC01me_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 06:40:40 -0700 Subject: [clouds] Subscribe info? X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:06:31 -0000 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D410418960B1034093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. How does one subscribe to this discussion? Cheers. --Gene --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D410418960B1034093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi.
How does one subscribe to this discussion?
 
Cheers.
--Gene
 
 
 
 
 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D410418960B1034093MBXC01me_-- From tme@americafree.tv Tue Apr 6 07:32:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B193A691D for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.747, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id flhKEnUP1RYj for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.americafree.tv (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837813A687F for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by mail.americafree.tv (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACFE686135E; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: From: Marshall Eubanks To: Gene Golovinsky In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:32:22 -0400 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] Subscribe info? X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:32:26 -0000 On Apr 6, 2010, at 9:05 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > Hi. > How does one subscribe to this discussion? > > Cheers. > --Gene > > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds Go to that URL (https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds) and follow instructions. Regards Marshall From gene@alertlogic.com Wed Apr 7 07:41:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A31A43A69ED for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:41:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.336 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.336 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e-7HxuUY2O71 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp171.dfw.emailsrvr.com (smtp171.dfw.emailsrvr.com [67.192.241.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD08A3A6949 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay17.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay17.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F183C2C72B7B for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com [67.192.133.192]) by relay17.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 6781D2C7237E for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 34093-MBX-C01.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.62]) by 222721-HUB08.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.207]) with mapi; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:40:41 -0500 From: Gene Golovinsky To: "clouds@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:40:40 -0500 Thread-Topic: Use cases Thread-Index: AcrWYEt/rTPLYLRbT6mk9pKXjgpMKQ== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896117A34093MBXC01me_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:41:04 -0000 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896117A34093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. I just joined the mailing list yesterday and have a few questions. 1. Is The Cloud Computing use cases white paper still document in prog= ress and it id finished? 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not rea= lly figure out if the WG was chartered. Thanks. --Gene --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896117A34093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi.
 
I just joined the mailing list yesterday and have a few questions.
 
  1. Is The Cloud Computing use cases white paper still document in progress= and it id finished?
  2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeti= ng, but could not really figure out if the WG was chartered.
 
Thanks.
--Gene
 
 
 
 
 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896117A34093MBXC01me_-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Wed Apr 7 07:47:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F653A67E9 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98RSWVJixalZ for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (stpeter.im [207.210.219.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E0C3A67D1 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from squire.local (dsl-228-252.dynamic-dsl.frii.net [216.17.228.252]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5FF6D40E15 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:47:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 08:47:40 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clouds@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070002040000070906010809" Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:47:46 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070002040000070906010809 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered.=20 It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. 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--------------ms070002040000070906010809-- From gene@alertlogic.com Wed Apr 7 07:58:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 603723A67F4 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:58:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.556, BAYES_05=-1.11, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fwzOOSm01er5 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp171.dfw.emailsrvr.com (smtp171.dfw.emailsrvr.com [67.192.241.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069683A6858 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay17.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay17.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 051272C72719; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com [67.192.133.192]) by relay17.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 9566D2C72723; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 34093-MBX-C01.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.62]) by 197751-HUB03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.197]) with mapi; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:57:49 -0500 From: Gene Golovinsky To: Peter Saint-Andre , "clouds@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:57:48 -0500 Thread-Topic: [clouds] Use cases Thread-Index: AcrWYVhrMWEHxracSgqQI49KTUY9RQAAOgow Message-ID: References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:58:11 -0000 V2VsbCwgSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGlzIGEgdG9waWMgd29ydGh5IG9mIElFVEYgdGltZSBhbmQgYXR0 ZW50aW9uLg0KSG93IGNhbiBJIGhlbHAgdG8gbW92ZSB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBmb3J3YXJkPw0K DQpXYXMgdGhlcmUgYW55IHNwZWNpZmljIGFyZWEgb3V0IG9mIHRoZSB3aGl0ZSBwYXBlciBkaXNj dXNzZWQ/IA0KSSB0aGluayBDbG91ZCBpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5IGFuZCBzZWN1cml0eSBhcmUg dG9waWNzIHdlcmUgSUVURiBpcyB0cmFkaXRpb25hbGx5IGZvY3VzaW5nIGl0cyBlZmZvcnRzLg0K DQotLUdlbmUNCg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogY2xvdWRzLWJv dW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzpjbG91ZHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxm IE9mIFBldGVyIFNhaW50LUFuZHJlDQpTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEFwcmlsIDA3LCAyMDEwIDk6 NDggQU0NClRvOiBjbG91ZHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbY2xvdWRzXSBVc2UgY2Fz ZXMNCg0KT24gNC83LzEwIDg6NDAgQU0sIEdlbmUgR29sb3ZpbnNreSB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiAgICAy LiBJIHNhdyByZWZlcmVuY2VzIHRvIGJhciBCb0YgYXQgbGFzdCBJRVRGIG1lZXRpbmcsIGJ1dCBj b3VsZCBub3QNCj4gICAgICAgcmVhbGx5IGZpZ3VyZSBvdXQgaWYgdGhlIFdHIHdhcyBjaGFydGVy ZWQuIA0KDQpJdCB3YXMgYSBiYXIgQm9GLCBub3QgYSByZWFsIEJvRi4gQW5kIElNSE8gdGhlIGRp c2N1c3Npb24gd2FzIHNvIG5lYnVsb3VzIHRoYXQgZm9sa3MgYXJlIGEgbG9uZyB3YXkgZnJvbSBm b3JtaW5nIGEgV0cuDQoNClBldGVyDQoNCi0tDQpQZXRlciBTYWludC1BbmRyZQ0KaHR0cHM6Ly9z dHBldGVyLmltLw0KDQoNCg0K From mwebb@cisco.com Wed Apr 7 08:09:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDD43A6945 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tvWXisXeE8Dp for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6913A6869 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhQFAOo8vEtAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACPVotncaJHmSCFCQQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,378,1267401600"; d="scan'208,217";a="99714141" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Apr 2010 15:09:16 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.79] (rtp-vpn5-500.cisco.com [10.82.233.245]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o37F9Ftt019227; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:09:15 GMT Message-Id: From: Mark Webb To: clouds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-30-287979103 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 11:09:15 -0400 References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:09:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail-30-287979103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could > not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so > nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > --Apple-Mail-30-287979103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was not there at the BoF, but = did get reports from a couple of people in = attendance.

An important perspective is to ensure = IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum = already underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring = they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =  

Seeking contributions on relevant & = IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at = this point in time.

Mark = Webb


On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, = Gene Golovinsky wrote:

=

Well, I = think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I = help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific = area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud = interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally = focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original = Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 = 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
= Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene = Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to = bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not
= >       really figure out if the WG was = chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the = discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a = WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



= _______________________________________________
clouds mailing = list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/clouds

=

= --Apple-Mail-30-287979103-- From gene@alertlogic.com Wed Apr 7 08:45:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8552F3A6929 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:45:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.103 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.161, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r1Oyulf6yHUO for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp151.dfw.emailsrvr.com (smtp151.dfw.emailsrvr.com [67.192.241.151]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DEC13A6860 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay15.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay15.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7F00B30B15E1; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 11:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com [67.192.133.192]) by relay15.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 2F02D30B1AF2; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 11:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 34093-MBX-C01.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.62]) by 207041-HUB06.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.201]) with mapi; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:45:40 -0500 From: Gene Golovinsky To: Mark Webb , "clouds@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:45:39 -0500 Thread-Topic: [clouds] Use cases Thread-Index: AcrWZGmg3j/uFR8vSrm5kICeP4YP6AABJ/TQ Message-ID: References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896120134093MBXC01me_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:45:57 -0000 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896120134093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark. I would agree with that. Like you said there are several initiatives going on in SNIA and TOG for ex= ample. I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data exchange formats and secu= rity covered anywhere. --Gene From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Cc: Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in = attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that= overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not= need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _m= ost_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditi= onally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896120134093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark.

I would agree with  that.

Like you said there are several initiatives going on in SNIA= and TOG for example.

 

I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data exchange f= ormats and security covered anywhere.

 

--Gene

 

 

 

 

From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

I was not there at the BoF,= but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important perspective is= to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Fo= rum already underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring they = are relevant to cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on re= levant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM= , Gene Golovinsky wrote:



Well, I thin= k this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting,= but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

--_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896120134093MBXC01me_-- From ldunbar@huawei.com Wed Apr 7 08:47:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CD23A6929 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:47:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nz8rDA9fDvFX for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga02-in.huawei.com (usaga02-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E1B93A685D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L0I00DU4JVC67@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 08:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from L735042 ([10.124.12.68]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L0I005SVJVBRC@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 08:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:47:35 -0500 From: Linda Dunbar In-reply-to: To: 'Mark Webb' , clouds@ietf.org Message-id: <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_YH71p5WyK97EngcUYfdwgA)" Thread-index: AcrWZG3CXjqNFavLQbKotmOiCqs3WAABEIbA References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:47:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_YH71p5WyK97EngcUYfdwgA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories: * Infrastructure-as-a-Service ( IaaS), * Platform-as-a-Service ( PaaS) and * Software-as-a-Service ( SaaS) There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group. Linda Dunbar _____ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --Boundary_(ID_YH71p5WyK97EngcUYfdwgA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I attended the CLOUD’s bar BOF. I don’t think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:

p     Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS),

p     Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and

p     Software-as-a-Service (SaaS)

 

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:



Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

--Boundary_(ID_YH71p5WyK97EngcUYfdwgA)-- From mwebb@cisco.com Wed Apr 7 09:05:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DA73A6AF7 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XFnqHp2xdyzq for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B323A6AF6 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmQFANlJvEtAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACBPpl+caM1mSKCXIItBA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,379,1267401600"; d="scan'208,217";a="99730211" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Apr 2010 16:05:17 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.79] (rtp-vpn5-500.cisco.com [10.82.233.245]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o37G5GGI013357; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 16:05:16 GMT Message-Id: <68DC040F-2B5C-4920-8E4B-AF750917D5E6@cisco.com> From: Mark Webb To: Gene Golovinsky In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-36-291340133 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:05:16 -0400 References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:05:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail-36-291340133 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DMTF with OVF is the primary group for Virtual Machine format & exchange for IaaS. Look for that to evolve into something that will allow some abstractions for policy - security. Given the dynamic nature of cloud today, the more abstraction that is allowed the better. This will enable demand to grow and the use-cases to expand and viable services to be offered. The cloud incubator effort, (in DMTF) looks to be spawning several other working groups. Three different APIs have been submitted to the cloud incubator and look like a working group will be created to look at that. There are several ways to look at the API user role and/or use-case of APIs. I think DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially for the APIs as well. For Security, Cloud Security Alliance is the clearing house for best practices, potential certification process in Cloud Audit. These may end up serving the industry as the security focal point. There are likely _most_ of the components for security existing today in various SDO. So, this profiles (or frameworks) for security are what is most needed right now IMO. Most of my comments are IaaS focused. I believe PaaS and SaaS are too ill defined with no center of gravity to be something mature enough to consider standardization yet. What the industry wants and will support in a functional, technical and business models from PaaS and SaaS has some design, use and clarification before we will know what is worth locking up IMO. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > Mark. > I would agree with that. > Like you said there are several initiatives going on in SNIA and TOG > for example. > > I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data exchange formats > and security covered anywhere. > > --Gene > > > > > From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Cc: Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of > people in attendance. > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new > effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The > industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud > computing IMO. > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is > the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > Mark Webb > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could > not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so > nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --Apple-Mail-36-291340133 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DMTF with OVF is the primary = group for Virtual Machine format & exchange for IaaS.   Look = for that to evolve into something that will allow some abstractions for = policy - security.  Given the dynamic nature of cloud today, the = more abstraction that is allowed the better.   This will enable = demand to grow and the use-cases to expand and viable services to be = offered.

The cloud incubator effort, (in = DMTF) looks to be spawning several other working groups. =  Three different APIs have been submitted to the cloud incubator = and look like a working group will be created to look at that. =  There are several ways to look at the API user role and/or = use-case of APIs.  I think DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially = for the APIs as well.

For Security, Cloud = Security Alliance is the clearing house for best practices, potential = certification process in Cloud Audit.  These may end up serving the = industry as the security focal point.  There are likely _most_ of = the components for security existing today in various SDO.  So, = this profiles (or frameworks) for security are what is most needed right = now IMO. 

Most of my comments are IaaS = focused.  I believe PaaS and SaaS are too ill defined with no = center of gravity to be something mature enough to consider = standardization yet.  What the industry wants and will support in a = functional, technical and business models from PaaS and SaaS has some = design, use and clarification before we will know what is worth locking = up IMO.

Mark Webb
On Apr 7, 2010, = at 11:45 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

I would agree with  = that.
Like you said there are several initiatives going on = in SNIA and TOG for example.
I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data = exchange formats and security covered = anywhere.
 
 
 
From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 = 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre; Gene = Golovinsky
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use = cases
I was not there at the BoF, = but did get reports from a couple of people in = attendance.
An important = perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps = with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The industry does not = need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =  
Seeking contributions = on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that = should be pursued at this point in time.
 
Mark = Webb
On Apr 7, 2010, at = 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:


Well, I think this is a topic = worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the = discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white = paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are = topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its = efforts.

--Gene


-----Original = Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 = AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use = cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky = wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at = last IETF meeting, but could = not
>       really figure out if the = WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the = discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a = WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_________________________________= ______________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
To: "'Linda Dunbar'" , "'Mark Webb'" , References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:58:58 -0400 Organization: MCSR Labs Message-ID: <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0105_01CAD652.171B06F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcrWZG3CXjqNFavLQbKotmOiCqs3WAABEIbAAAKmDwA= Content-Language: en-us X-ELNK-Trace: 43c6fb6bcad0e12d8fb8d53de325e2572debb5e46b7d1beea9f9781bd0baf922d884ef567d0245ab350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.241.19.12 Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:59:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01CAD652.171B06F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking. There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis. Carl From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories: p Infrastructure-as-a-Service ( IaaS), p Platform-as-a-Service ( PaaS) and p Software-as-a-Service ( SaaS) There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group. Linda Dunbar _____ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01CAD652.171B06F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could = change to avoid distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and = that is what was discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the = purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are = thinking.  There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a = gap analysis.


Carl

 

 

From:= clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too = big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar BOF. I don’t think it = is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” because it means = different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that = involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories: =

p  = Infrastructure-as-a= -Service (IaaS),

p  = Platform-as-a-Servi= ce (PaaS) and

p  = Software-as-a-Servi= ce (SaaS)

 

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest = separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them = to become a working group.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

I was not there at the = BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important perspective = is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and = Forum already underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring = they are relevant to cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on = relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued = at this point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 = AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

 

Well, I = think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF = meeting, but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

------=_NextPart_000_0105_01CAD652.171B06F0-- From ldunbar@huawei.com Wed Apr 7 10:16:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491903A6870 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:16:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YnB+bmUdGOha for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga04-in.huawei.com (usaga04-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.180]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8430A3A6811 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga04-in [172.18.4.101]) by usaga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L0I00IHNNZBEP@usaga04-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:16:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from L735042 ([10.124.12.68]) by usaga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L0I00M7BNZABR@usaga04-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:16:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:16:21 -0500 From: Linda Dunbar In-reply-to: <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org, 'Mark Webb' , clouds@ietf.org Message-id: <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_+mLqzPAEb6QY4VCUp2t6IQ)" Thread-index: AcrWZG3CXjqNFavLQbKotmOiCqs3WAABEIbAAAKmDwAAAKcaoA== References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:16:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_+mLqzPAEb6QY4VCUp2t6IQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. Linda _____ From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking. There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis. Carl From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories: * Infrastructure-as-a-Service ( IaaS), * Platform-as-a-Service ( PaaS) and * Software-as-a-Service ( SaaS) There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group. Linda Dunbar _____ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --Boundary_(ID_+mLqzPAEb6QY4VCUp2t6IQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.

 

Linda

 

From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking.  There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis.


Carl

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar BOF. I don’t think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:

p     Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS),

p     Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and

p     Software-as-a-Service (SaaS)

 

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

 

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

--Boundary_(ID_+mLqzPAEb6QY4VCUp2t6IQ)-- From shore@arsc.edu Wed Apr 7 10:24:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DC73A6979 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:24:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FFLabl3bTOd for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arsc.edu (mail1.arsc.edu [IPv6:2001:480:150:75::229]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5A93A6A70 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from viking-e0.arsc.edu (viking-e0.arsc.edu [IPv6:2001:480:150:860:223:32ff:feda:4a52]) by arsc.edu (20090828.ARSC) with ESMTP id o37HN704027933; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:23:08 -0800 (AKDT) Message-Id: From: Melinda Shore To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org In-Reply-To: <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:23:07 -0800 References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-CanIt-Geo: No geolocation information available for 2001:480:150:860:223:32ff:feda:4a52 X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on IPv6:2001:480:150:75::167 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:24:29 -0000 This all seems really incoherent to me. The usual approach is "Here's a problem, let's solve it" or sometimes "Here's a problem and here's the solution." Undertaking a gap analysis suggests that there's not a problem that's been identified, but that people want to undertake work in the area, don't want to work with the other bodies for whatever reasons, and so are looking for a problem that somebody else hasn't tackled (yet). I'm considerably more comfortable with work being driven by a real problem that's already been identified, personally. Melinda From meng.yu@zte.com.cn Wed Apr 7 18:04:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFC83A6829; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 18:04:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -90.19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.19 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id THgmSG3g3HBW; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 18:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx6.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [63.218.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF93D3A659C; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 18:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.99] by mx6.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 580712668162798; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:02:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from [192.168.168.1] by [192.168.168.15] with StormMail ESMTP id 83532.3699838823; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:04:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse2.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id o3813Kpn080684; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:03:20 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from meng.yu@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: To: Mark Webb MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 Message-ID: From: meng.yu@zte.com.cn Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:03:13 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 2010-04-08 09:03:19, Serialize complete at 2010-04-08 09:03:19 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0005CA55482576FF_=" X-MAIL: mse2.zte.com.cn o3813Kpn080684 Cc: clouds@ietf.org, clouds-bounces@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogUmU6ICBVc2UgY2FzZXM=?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UJD8-dEDNlfg for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f217.google.com (mail-gx0-f217.google.com [209.85.217.217]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A53D3A67BD for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9so1117940gxk.8 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:22:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ldpwaH0YVihZCRrbSOIOXrGh8QnQf5O7CqjwicYfGDQ=; b=nZH4chlEdnVv/zUC5Jxj344dh6hDw3J7uDPTdG0DCb1Wz4MSK7/av0HPBUnSUjHtyF 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"clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 04:22:51 -0000 --0016e68e7f66a8c5640483b206bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for all of the inputs and discussion. So far looks like the following could be the possible work items in IETF=92= s Clouds ... =B7 Interoperability =B7 API development =B7 Data exchange formats (may be use of metadata for defining services and/or moving services from one cloud to another or using hybrid cloud) =B7 Privacy and security profiles (or frameworks) for privacy and security in a variety of clouds domains =B7 Functional, technical and business models for clarification and use in Clouds services Any other suggestions and/or comments?! Bhumip +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mark Webb wrote: > DMTF with OVF is the primary group for Virtual Machine format & exchange > for IaaS. Look for that to evolve into something that will allow some > abstractions for policy - security. Given the dynamic nature of cloud > today, the more abstraction that is allowed the better. This will enabl= e > demand to grow and the use-cases to expand and viable services to be > offered. > > The cloud incubator effort, (in DMTF) looks to be spawning several other > working groups. Three different APIs have been submitted to the cloud > incubator and look like a working group will be created to look at that. > There are several ways to look at the API user role and/or use-case of > APIs. I think DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially for the APIs as well= . > > For Security, Cloud Security Alliance is the clearing house for best > practices, potential certification process in Cloud Audit. These may end= up > serving the industry as the security focal point. There are likely _most= _ > of the components for security existing today in various SDO. So, this > profiles (or frameworks) for security are what is most needed right now > IMO. > > Most of my comments are IaaS focused. I believe PaaS and SaaS are too il= l > defined with no center of gravity to be something mature enough to consid= er > standardization yet. What the industry wants and will support in a > functional, technical and business models from PaaS and SaaS has some > design, use and clarification before we will know what is worth locking u= p > IMO. > > Mark Webb > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > Mark. > I would agree with that. > Like you said there are several initiatives going on in SNIA and TOG for > example. > > I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data exchange formats and > security covered anywhere. > > --Gene > > > > > *From:* Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Cc:* Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people i= n > attendance. > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort > that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry do= es > not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the > _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > Mark Webb > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous > that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --0016e68e7f66a8c5640483b206bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for all of the inputs and discussion.
So far looks like the following could be the p= ossible work items in IETF=92s Clouds ...=A0
=A0

=B7=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Int= eroperability

=B7=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 API= development

=B7=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Dat= a exchange formats (may be use of metad= ata for defining services and/or moving services from one cloud to another = or using hybrid cloud)

=B7=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 Privacy and securi= ty profiles (or frameworks) for privacy and security in a vari= ety of clouds domains

=B7=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 F= unctional, technical and business models for clarification and use in Cloud= s services=A0

=A0

Any other suggestions and/or comments?!
=A0
Bhumip
=A0
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mark Webb <mwebb= @cisco.com> wrote:
DMTF with OVF is the primary group for= Virtual Machine format & exchange for IaaS. =A0 Look for that to evolv= e into something that will allow some abstractions for policy - security. = =A0Given the dynamic nature of cloud today, the more abstraction that is al= lowed the better. =A0 This will enable demand to grow and the use-cases to = expand and viable services to be offered.=20

The cloud incubator effort, (in DMTF)=A0looks to be spawning several o= ther working groups. =A0Three different APIs have been submitted to the clo= ud incubator and look like a working group will be created to look at that.= =A0There are several ways to look at the API user role and/or use-case of = APIs. =A0I think DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially for the APIs as well= .

For Security, Cloud Security Alliance is the clearing house for best p= ractices, potential certification process in Cloud Audit. =A0These may end = up serving the industry as the security focal point. =A0There are likely _m= ost_ of the components for security existing today in various SDO. =A0So, t= his profiles (or frameworks) for security are what is most needed right now= IMO.=A0

Most of my comments are IaaS focused. =A0I believe PaaS and SaaS are t= oo ill defined with no center of gravity to be something mature enough to c= onsider standardization yet. =A0What the industry wants and will support in= a functional, technical and business models from PaaS and SaaS has some de= sign, use and clarification before we will know what is worth locking up IM= O.

Mark Webb=20

On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

Mark.
I would agree with=A0 that.
Like you said there are several initi= atives going on in SNIA and TOG for example.
=A0
I do not see, however, interoperabili= ty/API, data exchange formats and security covered anywhere.
=A0
--Gene
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
From:=A0Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com]=A0
Sent:=A0Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To:=A0clouds@ietf.org
Cc:= =A0Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky
Subject:=A0Re: [clouds] Use cases
=A0
I was not there at the BoF, but did get repor= ts from a couple of people in attendance.
=A0
An important perspective is to ensure IETF do= es NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already un= derway. =A0The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant = to cloud computing IMO. =A0
=A0
Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF = appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point= in time.
=A0
Mark Webb
=A0
=A0
On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky = wrote:


Wel= l, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I = help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I thin= k Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally= focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----<= br> From:=A0clouds-bounces@iet= f.org=A0[mailto:clouds= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To:=A0clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases
On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>=A0=A0=A0 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but = could not
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 really figure out if the WG was charter= ed.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so= nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https:= //stpeter.im/



__________________________________________= _____
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
<= a style=3D"COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href=3D"https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/clouds

=A0


_____________________________= __________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds



--
Best Regards.

Bh= umip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. = Do not view, print, forward, and save the content of this email if you are = not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9.
--0016e68e7f66a8c5640483b206bd-- From masum@cisco.com Wed Apr 7 21:54:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1E13A6986 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:54:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bnUSUwewxtoF for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A153D3A696F for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiYFAM79vEurR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACBPpltcZ8nmSCCXBWCGASDJA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,168,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="112027786" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Apr 2010 04:54:34 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o384sYm9005955; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 04:54:34 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.43]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:54:34 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAD6D7.952ACCB4" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:54:28 -0700 Message-ID: <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5BEEE@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clouds] Use cases Thread-Index: AcrW0ywwnHlwv2zBQwOlGUf5bCGCyAAAJ9sg References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im><68DC040F-2B5C-4920-8E4B-AF750917D5E6@cisco.com> From: "Masum Hasan (masum)" To: "Bhumip Khasnabish" , "Mark Webb (mwebb)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Apr 2010 04:54:34.0686 (UTC) FILETIME=[956ECDE0:01CAD6D7] Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 04:54:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD6D7.952ACCB4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - Interoperability of what? A what level/layer? - API development? Yet another? No. There are plethora of them. = Mark pointed out DMTF may get into API spec work. There are also OGF = OCCI (for compute) and SNIA CDMI (storage). IETF/IRTF could define = requirements, specially as they relate to certain aspects of networking = (IETF's forte), which other SDOs could use as input to extend existing = APIs (OCCI/vCloud/CDMI). - Data exchange format (DEF)? What data? Exchange (virtual = appliance) package spec? Consider OVF. Exchange Amazon SimpleDB Table = data with Microsoft Azure? Metadata for defining services? Other SDOs = are working on this. Also, Metadata for defining services and DEF are = the same? I think, not. =20 - Privacy/security profiles? You got to figure out what other = SDOs are not already targeting. - The last bullet ... too vague. =20 =20 --Masum =20 408 219 9713 Cell 408 853 5926 Desk http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/ http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet) =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Bhumip Khasnabish Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:22 PM To: Mark Webb (mwebb); meng.yu@zte.com.cn Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases =20 Thanks for all of the inputs and discussion. So far looks like the following could be the possible work items in = IETF's Clouds ... =20 =20 =B7 Interoperability =B7 API development=20 =B7 Data exchange formats (may be use of metadata for defining = services and/or moving services from one cloud to another or using = hybrid cloud) =B7 Privacy and security profiles (or frameworks) for privacy = and security in a variety of clouds domains =B7 Functional, technical and business models for clarification = and use in Clouds services=20 =20 Any other suggestions and/or comments?! =20 Bhumip =20 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mark Webb wrote: DMTF with OVF is the primary group for Virtual Machine format & exchange = for IaaS. Look for that to evolve into something that will allow some = abstractions for policy - security. Given the dynamic nature of cloud = today, the more abstraction that is allowed the better. This will = enable demand to grow and the use-cases to expand and viable services to = be offered.=20 =20 The cloud incubator effort, (in DMTF) looks to be spawning several other = working groups. Three different APIs have been submitted to the cloud = incubator and look like a working group will be created to look at that. = There are several ways to look at the API user role and/or use-case of = APIs. I think DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially for the APIs as = well. =20 For Security, Cloud Security Alliance is the clearing house for best = practices, potential certification process in Cloud Audit. These may = end up serving the industry as the security focal point. There are = likely _most_ of the components for security existing today in various = SDO. So, this profiles (or frameworks) for security are what is most = needed right now IMO.=20 =20 Most of my comments are IaaS focused. I believe PaaS and SaaS are too = ill defined with no center of gravity to be something mature enough to = consider standardization yet. What the industry wants and will support = in a functional, technical and business models from PaaS and SaaS has = some design, use and clarification before we will know what is worth = locking up IMO. =20 Mark Webb=20 =20 On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Mark. I would agree with that. Like you said there are several initiatives going on in SNIA and TOG for = example. =20 I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data exchange formats and = security covered anywhere. =20 --Gene =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Cc: Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases =20 I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people = in attendance. =20 An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort = that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry = does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing = IMO. =20 =20 Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the = _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. =20 Mark Webb =20 =20 On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: =20 Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is = traditionally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds =20 =20 _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the = communiqu=E9. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD6D7.952ACCB4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-          Interoperability of what? A what level/layer?

-          API = development? Yet another? No. There are plethora of them. Mark pointed out DMTF may = get into API spec work. There are also OGF OCCI (for compute) and SNIA CDMI = (storage). IETF/IRTF could define requirements, specially as they relate to certain aspects = of networking (IETF’s forte), which other SDOs could use =A0as input to extend = existing APIs (OCCI/vCloud/CDMI).

-          Data = exchange format (DEF)? What data? Exchange (virtual appliance) package spec? = Consider OVF. Exchange Amazon SimpleDB Table data with Microsoft Azure? Metadata = for defining services? Other SDOs are working on this. =A0Also, Metadata for = defining services and DEF are the same? I think, not. =A0

-          Privacy/security profiles? You got to figure out what other SDOs are not already = targeting.

-          The last = bullet … too vague.

 

 =

--Masum

 =

408 219 9713=A0=A0 Cell=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = 408 853 5926=A0=A0 Desk

http://home= .comcast.net/~masumz/

http://wwwi= n-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet)

 =

 

From:= clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Bhumip Khasnabish
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:22 PM
To: Mark Webb (mwebb); meng.yu@zte.com.cn
Cc: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

Thanks for all of the inputs and = discussion.

So far looks like the following could be the possible work = items in IETF’s Clouds ... 

 

=B7         Interoperability

=B7         API development

=B7         Data exchange formats (may be use of metadata for defining services and/or = moving services from one cloud to another or using hybrid = cloud)

=B7     &nbs= p;   Privacy and security profiles (or frameworks) for privacy and security in a variety of clouds = domains

=B7     &nbs= p;   Functional, = technical and business models for clarification and use in Clouds = services 

 

Any other suggestions and/or = comments?!

 

Bhumip

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mark Webb <mwebb@cisco.com> wrote:

DMTF with OVF is the primary group for Virtual = Machine format & exchange for IaaS.   Look for that to evolve into = something that will allow some abstractions for policy - security.  Given the dynamic nature of cloud today, the more abstraction that is allowed the = better.   This will enable demand to grow and the use-cases to expand and = viable services to be offered.

 

The cloud incubator effort, (in DMTF) looks to = be spawning several other working groups.  Three different APIs have = been submitted to the cloud incubator and look like a working group will be created to = look at that.  There are several ways to look at the API user role and/or = use-case of APIs.  I think DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially for the = APIs as well.

 

For Security, Cloud Security Alliance is the = clearing house for best practices, potential certification process in Cloud Audit. =  These may end up serving the industry as the security focal point.  There = are likely _most_ of the components for security existing today in various = SDO.  So, this profiles (or frameworks) for security are what is most = needed right now IMO. 

 

Most of my comments are IaaS focused.  I = believe PaaS and SaaS are too ill defined with no center of gravity to be something = mature enough to consider standardization yet.  What the industry wants = and will support in a functional, technical and business models from PaaS and = SaaS has some design, use and clarification before we will know what is worth = locking up IMO.

 

Mark Webb =

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Gene Golovinsky = wrote:



Mark.

I would agree with  that.

Like you said there are several initiatives going on in = SNIA and TOG for example.

 

I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data = exchange formats and security covered anywhere.

 

--Gene

 

 

 

 

From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

I was not there at the = BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in = attendance.

 

An important = perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and = Forum already underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring = they are relevant to cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions = on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued = at this point in time.

 

Mark = Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at = 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

 

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF = meeting, but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds=

 

 


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds




--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the = communiqu=E9.

------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD6D7.952ACCB4-- From vumip1@gmail.com Wed Apr 7 22:40:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D1328C0DF for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 22:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rkkOHJPAHK2z for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 22:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f189.google.com (mail-iw0-f189.google.com [209.85.223.189]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC673A69C6 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 22:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn27 with SMTP id 27so1217043iwn.5 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 22:40:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=NGNCR2vh0Dq0P0okHFET/94fj6/DrjZgv35zFP42blo=; b=ZZnW77AiFQOs/42BFbKulaJ5wrHmEMhIVCWjd+3ssYZdWw392jWcKaatPziO7iSAia e1M0OndQ/PX+Bmh/Ve1E7XE1fsiQIOVfDeg4f3QMr/H9FynJv9XX8KnFMZaMyzZQrzpn 29MVeh3aUaeqY16UVLL8DXAlRYB6gXZu8+IEk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Z8SK3msznM++3CC6phs3jVUckaemGSfTX8txYNPpdXHYRAW1hSFIMKbRo+PEsdz92f Hn8i4RoEDWSWLi8MJOt0iqP5LvSDoLOshmu0bC7WXh5ibYprchvNZyTJEl8PvkkMOs/Y E/M/ouWyF9+g81qAZkInLVPoAWbAhAZA4NCe0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.8.147 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 22:40:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5BEEE@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <68DC040F-2B5C-4920-8E4B-AF750917D5E6@cisco.com> <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5BEEE@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 01:40:16 -0400 Received: by 10.231.146.134 with SMTP id h6mr4556605ibv.16.1270705216974; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 22:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Bhumip Khasnabish To: "Masum Hasan (masum)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64806781271460483b31d66 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 05:40:47 -0000 --0016e64806781271460483b31d66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Surely, these are good inputs and comments since we are still at bar BoF stage. As was mentioned earlier, "the interoperability between cloud entities or between different clouds could be the candidates." For the API work, yes, we'll look into what are being *planned* by other SDOs, and what are actually being *delivered*. The requirements may be driven by the services (XaaS) and use cases under consideration, and IETF Clouds group can contribute to that as well. Metadata may be useful for hiding configuration and provisioning complexity in each clouds, and may in turn support seamless interoperability. Service-specific, privacy and security profiles are very important, and as you mentioned " You got to figure out what other SDOs are not already targeting " and that's what we plan to do in the Std. survey and gap analysis. The last bullet simply mentions the need for business, technical, and functional ref. framerwork for cloud services. Thanks again. Bhumip On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Masum Hasan (masum) wrote= : > - Interoperability of what? A what level/layer? > > - API development? Yet another? No. There are plethora of them. > Mark pointed out DMTF may get into API spec work. There are also OGF OCCI > (for compute) and SNIA CDMI (storage). IETF/IRTF could define requirement= s, > specially as they relate to certain aspects of networking (IETF=92s forte= ), > which other SDOs could use as input to extend existing APIs > (OCCI/vCloud/CDMI). > > - Data exchange format (DEF)? What data? Exchange (virtual > appliance) package spec? Consider OVF. Exchange Amazon SimpleDB Table dat= a > with Microsoft Azure? Metadata for defining services? Other SDOs are work= ing > on this. Also, Metadata for defining services and DEF are the same? I > think, not. > > - Privacy/security profiles? You got to figure out what other > SDOs are not already targeting. > > - The last bullet =85 too vague. > > > > > > --Masum > > > > 408 219 9713 Cell 408 853 5926 Desk > > http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/ > > http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet) > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Bhumip Khasnabish > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:22 PM > *To:* Mark Webb (mwebb); meng.yu@zte.com.cn > *Cc:* clouds@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases > > > > Thanks for all of the inputs and discussion. > > So far looks like the following could be the possible work items in IETF= =92s > Clouds ... > > > > =B7 Interoperability > > =B7 API development > > =B7 Data exchange formats (may be use of metadata for defining > services and/or moving services from one cloud to another or using hybrid > cloud) > > =B7 Privacy and security profiles (or frameworks) for privacy and > security in a variety of clouds domains > > =B7 Functional, technical and business models for clarification a= nd > use in Clouds services > > > > Any other suggestions and/or comments?! > > > > Bhumip > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mark Webb wrote: > > DMTF with OVF is the primary group for Virtual Machine format & exchange > for IaaS. Look for that to evolve into something that will allow some > abstractions for policy - security. Given the dynamic nature of cloud > today, the more abstraction that is allowed the better. This will enabl= e > demand to grow and the use-cases to expand and viable services to be > offered. > > > > The cloud incubator effort, (in DMTF) looks to be spawning several other > working groups. Three different APIs have been submitted to the cloud > incubator and look like a working group will be created to look at that. > There are several ways to look at the API user role and/or use-case of > APIs. I think DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially for the APIs as well= . > > > > For Security, Cloud Security Alliance is the clearing house for best > practices, potential certification process in Cloud Audit. These may end= up > serving the industry as the security focal point. There are likely _most= _ > of the components for security existing today in various SDO. So, this > profiles (or frameworks) for security are what is most needed right now > IMO. > > > > Most of my comments are IaaS focused. I believe PaaS and SaaS are too il= l > defined with no center of gravity to be something mature enough to consid= er > standardization yet. What the industry wants and will support in a > functional, technical and business models from PaaS and SaaS has some > design, use and clarification before we will know what is worth locking u= p > IMO. > > > > Mark Webb > > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > > Mark. > > I would agree with that. > > Like you said there are several initiatives going on in SNIA and TOG for > example. > > > > I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data exchange formats and > security covered anywhere. > > > > --Gene > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Cc:* Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases > > > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people i= n > attendance. > > > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort th= at > overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does no= t > need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. > > > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the > _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > > > Mark Webb > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous > that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > > -- > Best Regards. > > Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) > > =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the con= tent > of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. > --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --0016e64806781271460483b31d66 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Surely, these are good inputs and comments since we are still at bar B= oF stage.

As was mentioned earlier, "the interoperability between cloud= entities or between different clouds could be the candidates."=A0
=A0
For the API work, yes, we'll look into what=A0 are being planned by other SDOs, and what are actually being delivered. The requirements may be driven by the services (X= aaS) and use cases under consideration, and IETF Clouds group=A0can contrib= ute to that as well.
=A0
Metadata may be useful for hiding configuration and provisioning compl= exity in each clouds, and may in turn support seamless interoperability.=A0=
=A0
Service-specific, privacy and security profiles are very important, an= d as you mentioned "=A0You got to figure out what oth= er SDOs are not already targeting "=A0and that's what we pl= an to do in the Std. survey and gap=A0analysis.
=A0
The last bullet simply mentions the need for business, technical, and = functional ref. framerwork for cloud services.
=A0
Thanks again.
=A0
Bhumip
=A0
=A0
=A0
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Masum Hasan (ma= sum) <masum@cisco.com> wrote:

-=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Interoperability of what? A what level/layer?

-=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 API development? Yet another? No. There are pletho= ra of them. Mark pointed out DMTF may get into API spec work. There are als= o OGF OCCI (for compute) and SNIA CDMI (storage). IETF/IRTF could define re= quirements, specially as they relate to certain aspects of networking (IETF= =92s forte), which other SDOs could use =A0as input to extend existing APIs= (OCCI/vCloud/CDMI).

-=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Data exchange format (DEF)? What data? Exchange (v= irtual appliance) package spec? Consider OVF. Exchange Amazon SimpleDB Tabl= e data with Microsoft Azure? Metadata for defining services? Other SDOs are= working on this. =A0Also, Metadata for defining services and DEF are the s= ame? I think, not. =A0

-=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Privacy/security profiles? You got to figure out w= hat other SDOs are not already targeting.

-=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The last bullet =85 too vague.

=A0

=A0

--Masum

=A0

408 219 9713=A0=A0 C= ell=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 408 853 5926=A0=A0 D= esk

http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/=

http://wwwin-people.cisco.co= m/masum/ (Intranet)

=A0

=A0

From:<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Bhumip Khasnabish
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:22 PM
To: Mark Webb (mwe= bb); meng.yu@zte.co= m.cn
Cc: clouds@ietf.org=20


Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

=A0

Thanks for all of the i= nputs and discussion.

So far looks like the f= ollowing could be the possible work items in IETF=92s Clouds ...=A0 =

=A0

=B7= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Interoperability

=B7= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 API development

=B7= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Data exchange formats (may be use of metadata for defining s= ervices and/or moving services from one cloud to another or using hybrid cl= oud)

=B7=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0 Privacy and security profiles (or frameworks) for privacy and security in a variety of clouds d= omains

=B7=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0 Functional, technical and business models for clarificat= ion and use in Clouds services=A0

=A0

Any other suggestions and/or comments?!

=A0

Bhumip

=A0

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mark Webb <mwebb@cisco.com> wro= te:

DMTF with OVF is the primary group for Virtual Machi= ne format & exchange for IaaS. =A0 Look for that to evolve into somethi= ng that will allow some abstractions for policy - security. =A0Given the dy= namic nature of cloud today, the more abstraction that is allowed the bette= r. =A0 This will enable demand to grow and the use-cases to expand and viab= le services to be offered.

=A0

The cloud incubator effort, (in DMTF)=A0looks to be = spawning several other working groups. =A0Three different APIs have been su= bmitted to the cloud incubator and look like a working group will be create= d to look at that. =A0There are several ways to look at the API user role a= nd/or use-case of APIs. =A0I think DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially fo= r the APIs as well.

=A0

For Security, Cloud Security Alliance is the clearin= g house for best practices, potential certification process in Cloud Audit.= =A0These may end up serving the industry as the security focal point. =A0T= here are likely _most_ of the components for security existing today in var= ious SDO. =A0So, this profiles (or frameworks) for security are what is mos= t needed right now IMO.=A0

=A0

Most of my comments are IaaS focused. =A0I believe P= aaS and SaaS are too ill defined with no center of gravity to be something = mature enough to consider standardization yet. =A0What the industry wants a= nd will support in a functional, technical and business models from PaaS an= d SaaS has some design, use and clarification before we will know what is w= orth locking up IMO.

=A0

Mark Webb

=A0

On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:<= /p>



Mark= .

I wo= uld agree with=A0 that.

Like= you said there are several initiatives going on in SNIA and TOG for exampl= e.

=A0<= /span>

I do= not see, however, interoperability/API, data exchange formats and security= covered anywhere.

=A0<= /span>

--Ge= ne

=A0<= /span>

=A0<= /span>

=A0<= /span>

=A0<= /span>

Fro= m:=A0Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com]=A0
Sent:=A0Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To:=A0clouds@ietf.org
Cc:= =A0Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky
Subject:=A0Re: [clouds]= Use cases

=A0

I was not there at the = BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

<= /div>

=A0

An important perspectiv= e is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SD= O and Forum already underway. =A0The industry does not need more SDO declar= ing they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =A0

=A0

Seeking contributions o= n relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be= pursued at this point in time.

=A0

Mark Webb

=A0

=A0

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:5= 7 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

=A0

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How = can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific ar= ea out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditi= onally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message= -----
From:=A0clouds-bounces@ietf.org=A0[mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter = Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To:=A0clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use= cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>=A0=A0= =A0 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It= was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous tha= t folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter S= aint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


_______________________________________________
clouds mai= ling list
clouds@ie= tf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

=A0

=A0


__________________= _____________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/clouds




--
Best Regards.
Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabi= sh. Do not view, print, forward, and save the content of this email if you = are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9.




-- Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9= 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the content = of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --0016e64806781271460483b31d66-- From gene@alertlogic.com Thu Apr 8 05:37:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1DF28C142 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:37:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.335 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.335 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.929, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HcaDoDZpy06s for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp181.dfw.emailsrvr.com (smtp181.dfw.emailsrvr.com [67.192.241.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C3828C140 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay18.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay18.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 294DA16F1E93; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com [67.192.133.192]) by relay18.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 14FA616F1D94; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 34093-MBX-C01.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.62]) by 152340-HUB02.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.196]) with mapi; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:36:46 -0500 From: Gene Golovinsky To: Linda Dunbar , "carlw@mcsr-labs.org" , 'Mark Webb' , "clouds@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:36:45 -0500 Thread-Topic: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Thread-Index: AcrWZG3CXjqNFavLQbKotmOiCqs3WAABEIbAAAKmDwAAAKcaoAAn7/1g Message-ID: References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189615B334093MBXC01me_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 12:37:17 -0000 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189615B334093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all ba= sically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions as service. As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authen= ticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, data prote= cted, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with th= ose issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment rec= ommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really covered. Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people that = care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability,= nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is no= t good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and d= ynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available. --Gene From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally diff= erent subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. Linda ________________________________ From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distr= action. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was dis= cussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was to ge= t some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking. T= here seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap an= alysis. Carl From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IETF to= have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to diffe= rent people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves d= elivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories: p Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS), p Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and p Software-as-a-Service (SaaS) There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest sepa= rating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of th= em to become a working group. Linda Dunbar ________________________________ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of= Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in = attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that= overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not= need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _m= ost_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditi= onally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189615B334093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categor= ies they all basically do the same thing – letting people consume IT func= tions as service.

As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users ne= ed to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited= , data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on.<= /span>

 

Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessari= ly deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deploym= ent recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really covered.

 

Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure th= at people that care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neit= her ability, nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslo= g) is not good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared = and dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available= .

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.=

 

Linda

 

From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.o= rg]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

The name is irrelevant an= d perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction.  The technolog= y discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking.  There seems = to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis.


Carl

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar BOF. I don’t think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” because= it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general te= rm for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:

= p  Infrastructure-as-a-S= ervice (IaaS),

= p  Platform-as-a-Service= (PaaS) and

= p  Software-as-a-Service= (SaaS)

 

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents f= or one of them to become a working group.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

I was not there at the BoF= , but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important perspective i= s to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Fo= rum already underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring they = are relevant to cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on r= elevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 A= M, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

 

Well, I thi= nk this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting,= but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

--_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189615B334093MBXC01me_-- From gene@alertlogic.com Thu Apr 8 06:02:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A463A6A6B for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:02:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.774, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ApH+FhyuMSdL for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp121.dfw.emailsrvr.com (smtp121.dfw.emailsrvr.com [67.192.241.121]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A8F3A6A69 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay12.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A06EE20807E7; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com [67.192.133.192]) by relay12.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 7B6C820815C7; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 222716-HUB11.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (192.168.1.205) by 197751-HUB03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (192.168.1.197) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.393.1; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:01:17 -0500 Received: from 34093-MBX-C01.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.62]) by 222716-HUB11.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.205]) with mapi; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:01:17 -0500 From: Gene Golovinsky To: Bhumip Khasnabish , "mwebb@cisco.com" , "meng.yu@zte.com.cn" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:01:16 -0500 Thread-Topic: [clouds] Use cases Thread-Index: AcrW0xsmkHTh4g1hR1GHyNsZov+kCwASBAtw Message-ID: References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <68DC040F-2B5C-4920-8E4B-AF750917D5E6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189615DB34093MBXC01me_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:02:01 -0000 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189615DB34093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All of those are fine choices, but I would really focus on Security profile= s, auditing (including API) --Gene From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:22 PM To: mwebb@cisco.com; meng.yu@zte.com.cn Cc: Gene Golovinsky; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases Thanks for all of the inputs and discussion. So far looks like the following could be the possible work items in IETF's = Clouds ... * Interoperability * API development * Data exchange formats (may be use of metadata for defining servic= es and/or moving services from one cloud to another or using hybrid cloud) * Privacy and security profiles (or frameworks) for privacy and sec= urity in a variety of clouds domains * Functional, technical and business models for clarification and u= se in Clouds services Any other suggestions and/or comments?! Bhumip +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mark Webb > wrote: DMTF with OVF is the primary group for Virtual Machine format & exchange fo= r IaaS. Look for that to evolve into something that will allow some abstr= actions for policy - security. Given the dynamic nature of cloud today, th= e more abstraction that is allowed the better. This will enable demand to= grow and the use-cases to expand and viable services to be offered. The cloud incubator effort, (in DMTF) looks to be spawning several other wo= rking groups. Three different APIs have been submitted to the cloud incuba= tor and look like a working group will be created to look at that. There a= re several ways to look at the API user role and/or use-case of APIs. I th= ink DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially for the APIs as well. For Security, Cloud Security Alliance is the clearing house for best practi= ces, potential certification process in Cloud Audit. These may end up serv= ing the industry as the security focal point. There are likely _most_ of t= he components for security existing today in various SDO. So, this profile= s (or frameworks) for security are what is most needed right now IMO. Most of my comments are IaaS focused. I believe PaaS and SaaS are too ill = defined with no center of gravity to be something mature enough to consider= standardization yet. What the industry wants and will support in a functi= onal, technical and business models from PaaS and SaaS has some design, use= and clarification before we will know what is worth locking up IMO. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Mark. I would agree with that. Like you said there are several initiatives going on in SNIA and TOG for ex= ample. I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data exchange formats and secu= rity covered anywhere. --Gene From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Cc: Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in = attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that= overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not= need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _m= ost_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditi= onally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds -- Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189615DB34093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

All of those are fine choices, but I would really focus on Security profiles, auditing (including API)

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.= com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:22 PM
To: mwebb@cisco.com; meng.yu@zte.com.cn
Cc: Gene Golovinsky; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

Thanks for all of the inputs and discussion.=

So far looks like the following could be the possible work ite= ms in IETF’s Clouds ... 

 

=B7    =      = Interoperability

=B7    =      = API development

=B7    =      = Data exchange formats (may be use of metadata for defining services and/or movin= g services from one cloud to another or using hybrid cloud)=

=B7         Privacy= and security pro= files (or frameworks) for privacy and security in a variety of clouds domains

=B7         Functional, technic= al and business models for clarification and use in Clouds services 

 

Any other suggestions and/o= r comments?!

 

Bhumip

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++++

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:0= 5 PM, Mark Webb <mwebb@ci= sco.com> wrote:

DMTF with OVF is the primar= y group for Virtual Machine format & exchange for IaaS.   Look for that to evolve into something that will allow some abstractions for policy - securi= ty.  Given the dynamic nature of cloud today, the more abstraction that is allowed the better.   This will enable demand to grow and the use-case= s to expand and viable services to be offered.

 

The cloud incubator effort,= (in DMTF) looks to be spawning several other working groups.  Three different APIs have been submitted to the cloud incubator and look like a working group will be created to look at that.  There are several ways= to look at the API user role and/or use-case of APIs.  I think DMTF focus will remain IaaS initially for the APIs as well.

 

For Security, Cloud Securit= y Alliance is the clearing house for best practices, potential certification process in Cloud Audit.  These may end up serving the industry as the security focal point.  There are likely _most_ of the components for s= ecurity existing today in various SDO.  So, this profiles (or frameworks) for security are what is most needed right now IMO. 

 

Most of my comments are Iaa= S focused.  I believe PaaS and SaaS are too ill defined with no center o= f gravity to be something mature enough to consider standardization yet.  What the industry wants and will support in a functional, technical a= nd business models from PaaS and SaaS has some design, use and clarification before we will know what is worth locking up IMO.

 

Mark Webb

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:45 AM= , Gene Golovinsky wrote:



Mark.

I would agree with  that.

Like you said there are several initiatives going on in SNIA and TOG for example.

 

I do not see, however, interoperability/API, data exchange formats and security covered anywhere.<= /span>

 

--Gene

 

 

 

 

From:&n= bsp;Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cis= co.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds= @ietf.org
Cc: Peter Saint-Andre; Gene Golovinsky
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance= .

 

An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The industry does= not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

 

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clo= uds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bou= nces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting,= but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

 


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds




--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9.<= /o:p>

--_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189615DB34093MBXC01me_-- From mwebb@cisco.com Thu Apr 8 06:24:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12DD28C14D for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:24:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7iKBYuBHFaMo for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E77A28C15A for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AowFAM91vUtAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACBPo4ni0xxoAOZIIJcgi0E X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,170,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="100032190" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Apr 2010 13:23:03 +0000 Received: from rtp-mwebb-8713.cisco.com (rtp-mwebb-8713.cisco.com [10.116.65.196]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o38DN25F017942; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:23:02 GMT Message-Id: <9DF482BD-96B8-4E85-941C-190134DBB2CC@cisco.com> From: Mark Webb To: clouds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-63-368006267 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:23:02 -0400 References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im><008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:24:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail-63-368006267 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Look at http://www.cloudaudit.org/ For cloud audit. It is difficult to specify audit when the services =20 are so different today. The industry has not settled on a small set of services definitions of =20= what "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, PaaS? When the services =20= offered in that space are so different? IaaS is the most mature and =20 perhaps the lcd of cloud. So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is =20 something that IETF can specify? OK that was rhetorical. My point =20 is, the real opportunity is to look for elements that are mature =20 enough to have some problem to be solved defined. Then ensure you are =20= not duplicating what other SDO or Forum are already working on. Mark Webb On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they =20= > all basically do the same thing =96 letting people consume IT =20 > functions as service. > As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be =20= > authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities =20 > audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes =20= > on. > > Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal =20= > with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with =20= > deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is =20= > not really covered. > > Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that =20 > people that care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. =20 > Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is there. While =20 > traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud simply =20= > because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated =20 > resources and user info is not consistently available. > > --Gene > > > > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On =20 > Behalf Of Linda Dunbar > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM > To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about =20 > totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving =20 > forward. > > Linda > > From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM > To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to =20 > avoid distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and =20 > that is what was discussed in the informal meeting. =46rom what I can = =20 > tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and =20= > see what people are thinking. There seems to be some conclusion =20 > that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis. > > Carl > > > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On =20 > Behalf Of Linda Dunbar > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM > To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appropriate = for =20 > IETF to have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means different = =20 > things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for =20 > anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can =20= > see three basic categories: > p Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS), > p Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and > p Software-as-a-Service (SaaS) > > There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I =20 > suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough =20 > contents for one of them to become a working group. > > Linda Dunbar > > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On =20 > Behalf Of Mark Webb > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of =20 > people in attendance. > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new =20 > effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The =20= > industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud =20= > computing IMO. > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is =20= > the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > Mark Webb > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is =20= > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On =20 > Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could =20= > not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so =20 > nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --Apple-Mail-63-368006267 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Look = at 


For cloud audit.  It is difficult to specify = audit when the services are so different today. =  

The industry has not settled on a small = set of services definitions of what "cloud" is. So, how does one audit = SaaS, PaaS?  When the services offered in that space are so = different?  IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of cloud. =  

So, who here thinks that "IT functions = as a service" or ITaaS is something that IETF can specify?  OK that = was rhetorical.  My point is, the real opportunity is to look for = elements that are mature enough to have some problem to be solved = defined.  Then ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO or = Forum are already working on.

Mark = Webb

On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Gene = Golovinsky wrote:

While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and = PaaS are different categories they all basically do the same thing =96 = letting people consume IT functions as = service.
As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: = users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, = activities audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the = list goes on.
 
Cloud Security Alliance mentioned = earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read their = guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, but the = area of auditing for example is not really = covered.
 
Ability to audit is really = important if we want to insure that people that care about compliance = actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor technology for = that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for = the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically = allocated resources and user info is not consistently = available.
 
 
 
 clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 = 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the = Cloud is too big
 
I find it = difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different = subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving = forward.
From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 = 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark = Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the = Cloud is too big
The name is = irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid = distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and that is = what was discussed in the informal meeting.  =46rom what I can tell = the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what = people are thinking.  There seems to be some conclusion that the = next step was to conduct a gap analysis.
 
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 = 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud = is too big
I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I = don=92t think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on = =93CLOUD=94 because it means different things to different people. Cloud = computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering = services over the Internet. I can see three basic = categories:
p p  and
p  There are a lot = of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them = and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to = become a working group.
Linda = Dunbar
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark = Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 = 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use = cases
I was not there at the BoF, = but did get reports from a couple of people in = attendance.
An important = perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps = with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The industry does not = need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =  
Seeking contributions = on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that = should be pursued at this point in time.
 
Mark = Webb
On Apr 7, 2010, at = 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

 

Well, I think this is = a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the = discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white = paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are = topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its = efforts.

--Gene


-----Original = Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 = AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use = cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky = wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at = last IETF meeting, but could = not
>       really figure out if the = WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the = discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a = WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_________________________________= ______________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:40:52 -0500 Thread-Topic: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Thread-Index: AcrXHrRieHAe1ZKCSZCZFf4aHaSMTAAATaLQ Message-ID: References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im><008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <9DF482BD-96B8-4E85-941C-190134DBB2CC@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9DF482BD-96B8-4E85-941C-190134DBB2CC@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896160C34093MBXC01me_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:41:08 -0000 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896160C34093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard. The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF: http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid97_g= ci1508024,00.html Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to take= on. When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going to be a lot= of work to make it a standard. At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Cloud= Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group. Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and how critical= Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2. --Gene From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Cc: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Look at http://www.cloudaudit.org/ For cloud audit. It is difficult to specify audit when the services are so= different today. The industry has not settled on a small set of services definitions of what= "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, PaaS? When the services offered = in that space are so different? IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lc= d of cloud. So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is something = that IETF can specify? OK that was rhetorical. My point is, the real oppo= rtunity is to look for elements that are mature enough to have some problem= to be solved defined. Then ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO = or Forum are already working on. Mark Webb On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all ba= sically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions as service. As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authen= ticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, data prote= cted, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with th= ose issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment rec= ommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really covered. Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people that = care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability,= nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is no= t good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and d= ynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available. --Gene From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ie= tf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally diff= erent subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. Linda ________________________________ From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distr= action. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was dis= cussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was to ge= t some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking. T= here seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap an= alysis. Carl From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IETF to= have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to diffe= rent people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves d= elivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories: * Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS), * Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and * Software-as-a-Service (SaaS) There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest sepa= rating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of th= em to become a working group. Linda Dunbar ________________________________ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in = attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that= overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not= need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _m= ost_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditi= onally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896160C34093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://www.clou= daudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard.

The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF:

http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news= /interview/0,289202,sid97_gci1508024,00.html

 

Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic f= or IETF to take on.

When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still go= ing to be a lot of work to make it a standard.

 

At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Cloud Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group.

Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving a= nd how critical Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2.

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Cc: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

Look at 

 

 

For cloud audit.  It i= s difficult to specify audit when the services are so different today.  =

 

The industry has not settle= d on a small set of services definitions of what "cloud" is. So, how doe= s one audit SaaS, PaaS?  When the services offered in that space are so different?  IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of cloud. &nbs= p;

 

So, who here thinks that &q= uot;IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is something that IETF can specify?  OK that was rhetorical.  My point is, the real opportunity is to look for elements that are mature enough to have some problem to be solved defined.  Then ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO or Forum = are already working on.

 

Mark Webb

 

On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:36 AM,= Gene Golovinsky wrote:



While I agree that SaaS, = IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the same thing R= 11; letting people consume IT functions as service.

As a result the same mult= iple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their access need to = be controlled, activities audited, data protected, functionality provisioned a= nd the list goes on.

 <= /p>

Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, but the are= a of auditing for example is not really covered.

 <= /p>

Ability to audit is reall= y important if we want to insure that people that care about compliance actua= lly use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is the= re. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources and = user info is not consistently available.

 <= /p>

--Gene<= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org]=  On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, Apr= il 07, 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds= ] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.=

 

Linda

 

From: Carl Williams = [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, Apr= il 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; = 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds= ] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

The name is irrelevant an= d perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction.  The technolog= y discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking.  There seems = to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis.=


Carl

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org]=  On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, Apr= il 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Sc= ope of the Cloud is too big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar BOF. I don’t think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” because= it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general te= rm for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:

p  <= span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Infrastructure-as-a-S= ervice (IaaS),

p  <= span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Platform-as-a-Service= (PaaS)&= nbsp;and

p  <= span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Software-as-a-Service= (SaaS)

 

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents f= or one of them to become a working group.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org]=  On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, Apr= il 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds= ] Use cases

 

I was not there at the BoF,= but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important perspective is= to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Fo= rum already underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring they = are relevant to cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on re= levant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at= this point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM= , Gene Golovinsky wrote:

 

Well, I thi= nk this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting,= but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

 

--_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D41041896160C34093MBXC01me_-- From sjj@google.com Thu Apr 8 06:38:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BCA3A688A for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:38:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dP6ELc6PRysZ for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [216.239.44.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08183A6358 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wpaz33.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz33.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.97]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o38DcIdP018594 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:38:18 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1270733899; bh=Id+UVcsByeJDX1OfplhVWeSMhm8=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=d7wr6DVRc2cV9wsHgslSSpT+pw2+gMAjUX+pJtOmaDYYGNtYk/wsLmVrDOXA/3neR TxWOSJ+WnrEXRY3C8PqHQ== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=UfeAD1g3xDh1J1qu7V0yKb+7eMneVekKaQSqdd8bP82Z8pJttusIpmKZDfl2Do5tf WJAedt9VO02/u5uRH+5+Q== Received: from bwz7 (bwz7.prod.google.com [10.188.26.7]) by wpaz33.hot.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o38DcHTf006964 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:38:17 -0700 Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so1898280bwz.16 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 06:38:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.136.210 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:38:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:38:16 +0200 Received: by 10.204.132.196 with SMTP id c4mr180773bkt.5.1270733896481; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 06:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Sam Johnston To: Gene Golovinsky Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174780c480fb7e0483b9ca48 X-System-Of-Record: true Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:44:05 -0000 --0015174780c480fb7e0483b9ca48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8 April 2010 14:36, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all > basically do the same thing =96 letting people consume IT functions as > service. > > Agreed - cloud computing shifts computation [back] from the nodes to the network, typically making it someone else's problem in the process. The delivery of computing as a service (ala the electricity grid) rather than a= s a product (ala a diesel generator) will certainly require some standardisation effort, particularly given it's far more complicated than just setting a voltage and frequency. Regarding the definition, it's not precise but who cares - it doesn't need to be so long as it's accurate (note that nobody cared that client-server was imprecise). The best definition I've been able to come up with so far (with the help of fellow Wikipedians) is "*Internet-based computing, whereb= y shared resources, software and information are provided to computers and other devices on-demand, like a public utility*", which is itself a refinement of my earlier definition, simply "*Internet ('Cloud') based development and use of computer technology ('Computing')*". If you try to drill down from here to improve precision you lose accuracy - trust me, I'v= e tried. Let's just accept that we're not going to have a definition/stack/etc. everyone agrees with and move on. One way to look at it is that the Internet (the global network of networks) kept us amused for a few decades by relaying packets between nodes at the edge (most of the time). Some nodes were providers (servers), some consumer= s (clients) and others filled both roles (e.g. P2P). It's like the electricit= y grid without power stations - cloud computing just adds the latter (typically in the form of nextgen data centers but could just as easily be p2p or volunteer computing for all the client cares). Today we have a number of largely independent "clouds" (Amazon, Google, Microsoft, etc.) that are loosely coupled with protocols like OpenID as wel= l as proprietary protocols like Amazon's EC2 and S3. These will eventually merge into the Intercloud (the global cloud of clouds) and for this to happen we will certainly need distributed but coordinated (in the sense of collaboration rather than control) standardisation. I personally believe th= e IETF could play a key role here, as it did for the development of the Internet. Cheers, Sam --=20 *Sam Johnston* *Technical Program Manager* Site Reliability Engineering Google Switzerland GmbH --0015174780c480fb7e0483b9ca48 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8 April 2010 14:36, Gene Golovinsky <gene@alertlogic.com> wrote:

While= I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the same thing =96 letting people consume IT function= s as service.

Agreed - cloud computin= g shifts computation [back] from the nodes to the network, typically making= it someone else's problem in the process. The delivery of computing as= a service (ala the electricity grid) rather than as a product (ala a diese= l generator) will certainly require some standardisation effort, particular= ly given it's far more complicated than just setting a voltage and freq= uency.

Regarding the definition, it's not precise but who = cares - it doesn't need to be so long as it's accurate (note that n= obody cared that client-server was imprecise). The best definition I've= been able to come up with so far (with the help of fellow Wikipedians) is = "Internet-based computing, whereby shared resources, software and i= nformation are provided to computers and other devices on-demand, like a pu= blic utility", which is itself a refinement of my earlier definiti= on, simply "Internet ('Cloud') based development and use of= computer technology ('Computing')". If you try to drill d= own from here to improve precision you lose accuracy - trust me, I've t= ried. Let's just accept that we're not going to have a definition/s= tack/etc. everyone agrees with and move on.

One way to look at it is that the Internet (the global = network of networks) kept us amused for a few decades by relaying packets b= etween nodes at the edge (most of the time). Some nodes were providers (ser= vers), some consumers (clients) and others filled both roles (e.g. P2P). It= 's like the electricity grid without power stations - cloud computing j= ust adds the latter (typically in the form of nextgen data centers but coul= d just as easily be p2p or volunteer computing for all the client cares).

Today we have a number of largely independent "clo= uds" (Amazon, Google, Microsoft, etc.) that are loosely coupled with p= rotocols like OpenID as well as proprietary protocols like Amazon's EC2= and S3. These will eventually merge into the Intercloud (the global cloud = of clouds) and for this to happen we will certainly need distributed but co= ordinated (in the sense of collaboration rather than control) standardisati= on. I personally believe the IETF could play a key role here, as it did for= the development of the Internet.

Cheers,

Sam

--=A0
Sam Johnston
Technical Program Manager
Site Reliability Engineer= ing
Google Switzerland GmbH

--0015174780c480fb7e0483b9ca48-- From sjj@google.com Thu Apr 8 08:19:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9323A67E9 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:19:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.129, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nf7spCoknpca for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [74.125.121.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1998A3A67A6 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hpaq13.eem.corp.google.com (hpaq13.eem.corp.google.com [10.3.21.13]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o38FJDS7023371 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:19:13 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1270739953; bh=LWugZoGYbjD5JfVRI1WHv/MMe5k=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=JDvaEQp933TYytouHvfDMVgDFqjht4iNN9AH5vJ1ZFvPiQWe17cDPnBCUPJ4+1IiJ 9AGH+l32l41M2MRYeISiQ== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=TTQBW5ZqGMibc/8/UYVAiSAgiuBNMCZN76Saa2lZ3fTvs8UdzsVUzV7wMsHPjYVcU 7ILlbOlq/GqwOiSdq8jGg== Received: from bwz23 (bwz23.prod.google.com [10.188.26.23]) by hpaq13.eem.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o38FItl4017927 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:19:12 +0200 Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so1952546bwz.26 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:19:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.136.210 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:19:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <9DF482BD-96B8-4E85-941C-190134DBB2CC@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:19:08 +0200 Received: by 10.204.15.5 with SMTP id i5mr276430bka.182.1270739948960; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Sam Johnston To: Gene Golovinsky Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325557bb2427b8f0483bb332a X-System-Of-Record: true Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 15:19:24 -0000 --000325557bb2427b8f0483bb332a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Gene, You're definitely not alone in thinking this would be a worthy topic for IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco's Chris Hoff) and author of the existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd love to see IETF people starting to work with the group. We have weekly calls on Monday at 10am PST/1pm EST and discuss in the cloudaudit Google Group[1]. The goal for v1 is to create a trivial HTTP-based interface that can be implemented by uploading files rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's OCCI working group has produced a number of Internet-Drafts that could be picked up by IETF. Another area that I think would be very interesting for IETF to take on (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, HTTP-based storage API like Amazon's S3 - only without the potential patent problems[2]. I believe that HTTP already takes care of many/most of the issues (e.g. authentication, encryption, ranged GETs, etc.) and IETF has proven experience in the area (WebDAV). Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how to remotely instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, moving a virtual machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a mobile device on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a good start (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed and possibly promoted for more generic application. Considering that most of these APIs (at least the ones I'm involved in) are trying to be as close as possible to the "uniform interface" of HTTP, I believe there's benefit to be had in reviewing the relevant RFCs with these new applications in mind. For example, while HTTP has a perfectly good metadata channel (headers) and thus obviates the need for envelope formats (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability to link, annotate and categorise resources. It also has some internationalisation problems (e.g. ASCII) and inefficient serialisation (e.g. SPDY). HTTP 1.1 has served us well for many years but perhaps it's time to start thinking about what HTTP 2.0 might look like? Sam -- *Sam Johnston* *Technical Program Manager* Site Reliability Engineering Google Switzerland GmbH 1. http://groups.google.com/group/cloudaudit 2. http://tinyurl.com/s3patent 3. http://code.google.com/p/cush/ On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard. > > The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF: > > > http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid97_gci1508024,00.html > > > > Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to take > on. > > When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going to be a lot > of work to make it a standard. > > > > At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Cloud > Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group. > > Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and how critical > Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2. > > > > --Gene > > > > > > > > *From:* Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Cc:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky > > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > Look at > > > > http://www.cloudaudit.org/ > > > > For cloud audit. It is difficult to specify audit when the services are so > different today. > > > > The industry has not settled on a small set of services definitions of what > "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, PaaS? When the services offered in > that space are so different? IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of > cloud. > > > > So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is something > that IETF can specify? OK that was rhetorical. My point is, the real > opportunity is to look for elements that are mature enough to have some > problem to be solved defined. Then ensure you are not duplicating what > other SDO or Forum are already working on. > > > > Mark Webb > --000325557bb2427b8f0483bb332a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gene,

You're definitely not alone in thinking this w= ould be a worthy topic for IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco'= ;s Chris Hoff) and author of the existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd lov= e to see IETF people starting to work with the group. We have weekly calls = on Monday at 10am PST/1pm EST and discuss in the cloudaudit Google Group[1]= . The goal for v1 is to create a trivial HTTP-based interface that can be i= mplemented by uploading files rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's OCCI= working group has produced a number of Internet-Drafts that could be picke= d up by IETF.

Another area that I think would be very interesting for= IETF to take on (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, HTTP-= based storage API like Amazon's S3 - only without the potential patent = problems[2]. I believe that HTTP already takes care of many/most of the iss= ues (e.g. authentication, encryption, ranged GETs, etc.) and IETF has prove= n experience in the area (WebDAV).

Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how = to remotely instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, mo= ving a virtual machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a= mobile device on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE ver= bs are a good start (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could = be reviewed and possibly promoted for more generic application.

Considering that most of these APIs (at least the ones = I'm involved in) are trying to be as close as possible to the "uni= form interface" of HTTP, I=A0believe there's benefit to be had in = reviewing the relevant RFCs with these new applications in mind. For exampl= e, while HTTP has a perfectly good metadata channel (headers) and thus obvi= ates the need for envelope formats (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability = to link, annotate and categorise resources. It also has some internationali= sation problems (e.g. ASCII) and inefficient serialisation (e.g. SPDY). HTT= P 1.1 has served us well for many years but perhaps it's time to start = thinking about what HTTP 2.0 might look like?

Sam

--=A0
Sam Johnston
Technical Program Manager
Site Reliability Engineering
Google Switzerland GmbH

3.=A0http://code.google.com/p/cush/
=
On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky <gene@alertlogic.com> wrote:

http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard.

The p= lan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF:

http://searchsecuritychannel.tec= htarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid97_gci1508024,00.html

=A0

Which= means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to take on.

When = and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going to be a lot of work to make it a standard.

=A0

At le= ast two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Cloud Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group.

Consi= dering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and how critical Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2.

=A0

--Gen= e

=A0

=A0

=A0

From: Mark Webb [mai= lto:mwebb@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM
To: clouds@ietf= .org
Cc: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky

<= div>
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

=A0

Look at=A0

=A0

=A0

For cloud audit. =A0It is difficult to specify audit when the services are so different today. =A0

=A0

The industry has not sett= led on a small set of services definitions of what "cloud" is. So, how doe= s one audit SaaS, PaaS? =A0When the services offered in that space are so different? =A0IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of cloud. =A0

=A0

So, who here thinks that = "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is something that IETF can specify? =A0OK that was rhetorical. =A0My point is, the real opportunity is to look for elements that are mature enough to have some problem to be solved defined. =A0Then ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO or Forum are already working on.

=A0

Mark Webb

=
--000325557bb2427b8f0483bb332a-- From ldunbar@huawei.com Thu Apr 8 08:21:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC7D28C0CF for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:21:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2kKkffLa1jdp for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga02-in.huawei.com (usaga02-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A63D3A67E9 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L0K00MP2DBZFA@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from L735042 ([10.124.12.68]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L0K000HWDBU6B@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:21:32 -0500 From: Linda Dunbar In-reply-to: To: 'Gene Golovinsky' , carlw@mcsr-labs.org, 'Mark Webb' , clouds@ietf.org Message-id: <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_J0Ard64NwygtWigYW1UMXw)" Thread-index: AcrWZG3CXjqNFavLQbKotmOiCqs3WAABEIbAAAKmDwAAAKcaoAAn7/1gAAYvOAA= References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 15:21:57 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_J0Ard64NwygtWigYW1UMXw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I am looking at a very different angle of the "Cloud". Rather than the "IT functions as a service", I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers. Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group. Linda Dunbar _____ From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com] Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions as service. As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really covered. Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people that care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available. --Gene From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. Linda _____ From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking. There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis. Carl From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories: * Infrastructure-as-a-Service ( IaaS), * Platform-as-a-Service ( PaaS) and * Software-as-a-Service ( SaaS) There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group. Linda Dunbar _____ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --Boundary_(ID_J0Ard64NwygtWigYW1UMXw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

I am looking at a very different = angle of the “Cloud”. Rather than the “IT functions as a = service”, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Services which can = be offered by Service Providers.

Are there anyone else interested in = this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group. =

 

Linda = Dunbar

 

From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, = 2010 7:37 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; = carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; = clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all = basically do the same thing – letting people consume IT functions as = service.

As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, = data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes = on.

 <= /o:p>

Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really = covered.

 <= /o:p>

Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people that care = about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor = technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough = for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically = allocated resources and user info is not consistently available. =

 <= /o:p>

--Gene<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally = different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. =

 =

Linda =

 =

From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark = Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and that is = what was discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the = purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking.  There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was = to conduct a gap analysis.


Carl

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; = clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope = of the Cloud is too big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar BOF. I don’t think it is = appropriate for IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” because it means = different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for = anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:

p     Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS),

p     Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and

p     Software-as-a-Service (SaaS)

 =

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest = separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them = to become a working group.

 =

Linda Dunbar

 =

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use = cases

 

I was not there at the BoF, but did get = reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important perspective is to ensure IETF = does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already = underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to = cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this = point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky = wrote:

 

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF = time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF = meeting, but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

--Boundary_(ID_J0Ard64NwygtWigYW1UMXw)-- From vumip1@gmail.com Thu Apr 8 09:07:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29EF728C0EF for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:07:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UQaD9OGZPaxw for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f191.google.com (mail-pz0-f191.google.com [209.85.222.191]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB433A690F for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk29 with SMTP id 29so2034902pzk.29 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 09:07:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Lt5dGOILdgR1arjaACrWHGQK6NIb/iT4RdMa/GYtIVU=; b=IpStZVcFKoVzIovjQJLSQhZh3Lv1Fa9B8MAxdjXLaX8gsFSbXkc63zzXmmGbgWEIFB hnTi4TMWVBD6Gz/JCcSi4na57bTUKX5AiGiJJh/CN3vS3+d632xapD8pybhMPquRqGkF bMJvGEmpkczAbgOfHhm1c4gIY9cHxVbII/QJs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=K6B+bI7YLwA/5X8CNMpHbl1YP3kTO9YvUiaFuDmWuYTxltbtt7I1pE/frlrx+Dbv6n LYJ4vXXP8o6QQPL5TN8bBl1gMmpNHXXtSbewCQUC4/LgfqveMfOa3q/LgFNVPCl/bunQ NGS4KJ6uXgCVScEFxXWa14kGYGDRziM3Czk+A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.8.147 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:07:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:07:01 -0400 Received: by 10.141.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr493234rvi.166.1270742821558; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 09:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Bhumip Khasnabish To: Linda Dunbar Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd109567ad9cd0483bbde00 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:07:09 -0000 --000e0cd109567ad9cd0483bbde00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in the same group please. Thanks a lot. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > I am looking at a very different angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than t= he > =93IT functions as a service=94, I am looking at Virtual Network Services= and > Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers. > > Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a > separate discussion group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM > *To:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all > basically do the same thing =96 letting people consume IT functions as > service. > > As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be > authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, da= ta > protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. > > > > Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with > those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment > recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really cover= ed. > > > > > Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people tha= t > care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither abilit= y, > nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is n= ot > good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and > dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently availab= le. > > > > > --Gene > > > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM > *To:* carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally > different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. > > > > Linda > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM > *To:* 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid > distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what = was > discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was = to > get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking= . > There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap > analysis. > > > Carl > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM > *To:* 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appropriate for I= ETF to > have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means different things to > different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that > involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic > categories: > > p Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS > ), > > p Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS)and > > p Software-as-a-Service (SaaS > ) > > > > There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest > separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one= of > them to become a working group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Webb > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases > > > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people i= n > attendance. > > > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort th= at > overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does no= t > need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. > > > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the > _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > > > Mark Webb > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous > that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --000e0cd109567ad9cd0483bbde00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-ba= sed systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on.=A0 Cloud-based storag= e, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, =A0cloud-based network service i= n order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, e= tc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in the same group please= . Thanks a lot.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar <ldunbar@huawei.co= m> wrote:

I am looking at= a very different angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than the =93IT functions= as a service=94, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Serv= ices which can be offered by Service Providers.

Are there anyon= e else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion = group.

=A0

Linda Dunbar

=A0

From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]=
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2= 010 7:37 AM
To: Linda Du= nbar; carlw@mcsr-l= abs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org=20


Subject:<= /b> RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

=A0

While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are differen= t categories they all basically do the same thing =96 letting people consum= e IT functions as service.

As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply:= users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activi= ties audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes o= n.

=A0

Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not = necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly d= eals with deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example = is not really covered.

=A0

Ability to audit is really important if we want to = insure that people that care about compliance actually use cloud technologi= es. Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is there. While traditiona= l logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud simply because we are d= ealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources and user info is not= consistently available.

=A0

--Gene

=A0

=A0

=A0

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, = 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org;= 'Mark Webb'; = clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope= of the Cloud is too big

=A0

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about = totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.=

=A0

Linda

=A0

From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] =
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, = 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'L= inda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope= of the Cloud is too big

=A0

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it cou= ld change to avoid distraction.=A0 The technology discussions is what is ke= y and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting.=A0 From what I ca= n tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see = what people are thinking.=A0 There seems to be some conclusion that the nex= t step was to conduct a gap analysis.


Carl

=A0

=A0

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, = 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'M= ark Webb'; clouds@= ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope of = the Cloud is too big

=A0

I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appr= opriate for IETF to have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means di= fferent things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for a= nything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see thre= e basic categories:

p=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS),

p=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and

p=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Software-as-a-Service (SaaS)

=A0

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. = I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents= for one of them to become a working group.

=A0

Linda Dunbar

=A0

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Mark W= ebb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, = 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases<= /span>

=A0

I was not there at the BoF= , but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.<= /p>

=A0

An important perspective i= s to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO a= nd Forum already underway. =A0The industry does not need more SDO declaring= they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =A0

=A0

Seeking contributions on r= elevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pu= rsued at this point in time.

=A0

Mark Webb

=A0

=A0

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 A= M, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

=A0

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF t= ime and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?
Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditi= onally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message= -----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Sain= t-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use c= ases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>=A0=A0=A0 = 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It= was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous tha= t folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter S= aint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


_______________________________________________
clouds mai= ling list
clouds@ie= tf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

=A0


________________________________________= _______
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

=



--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mo= bile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save= the content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the com= muniqu=E9.
--000e0cd109567ad9cd0483bbde00-- From ning.so@verizonbusiness.com Thu Apr 8 09:09:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483E828C13A for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oQ1W+FRKlKg2 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ashesmtp02.verizonbusiness.com (ashesmtp02.verizonbusiness.com [198.4.8.166]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87DFE3A687F for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdcismtp01.vzbi.com ([unknown] [166.40.77.67]) by firewall.verizonbusiness.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.03 32bit (built May 29 2009)) with ESMTP id <0L0K007DPFJTTHA0@firewall.verizonbusiness.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:09:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pdcismtp01.vzbi.com ([unknown] [127.0.0.1]) by pdcismtp01.vzbi.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.03 32bit (built May 29 2009)) with ESMTP id <0L0K00537FJTAQ00@pdcismtp01.vzbi.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:09:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ASHSRV142.mcilink.com ([unknown] [153.39.68.168]) by pdcismtp01.vzbi.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.03 32bit (built May 29 2009)) with ESMTP id <0L0K005EUFJL7000@pdcismtp01.vzbi.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:09:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ASHEVS008.mcilink.com ([153.39.69.129]) by ASHSRV142.mcilink.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:09:22 +0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAD735.C9A927C2" Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:08:53 +0000 Message-id: <14584D6EE26B314187A4F68BA206060003A394BD@ASHEVS008.mcilink.com> In-reply-to: <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-topic: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Thread-index: AcrWZG3CXjqNFavLQbKotmOiCqs3WAABEIbAAAKmDwAAAKcaoAAn7/1gAAYvOAAAAEJnIA== References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> From: "So, Ning" To: clouds@ietf.org X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Apr 2010 16:09:22.0541 (UTC) FILETIME=[DA1331D0:01CAD735] Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:09:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD735.C9A927C2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carrier/operators indeed do have a unique angle to the Cloud-based Services, including but not limited to storage, data mining/search, computing, and so on. How does this new type of services interwork with the existing MPLS-based network technologies? For example, how does these service interwork with today's L2 and L3 VPN based-services? How is the virtual separation of the traffic/data/queries maintained end-to-end for the security conscious customers? =20 =20 Ning So Lead Engineer Global Data Network Traffic Planning 972-729-7905 =20 ________________________________ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:22 AM To: 'Gene Golovinsky'; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I am looking at a very different angle of the "Cloud". Rather than the "IT functions as a service", I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers.=20 Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group.=20 =20 Linda Dunbar =20 ________________________________ From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions as service. As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. =20 Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really covered.=20 =20 Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people that care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available.=20 =20 --Gene =20 =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.=20 =20 Linda=20 =20 ________________________________ From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking. There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis. Carl =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:=20 * Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS ), * Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and=20 * Software-as-a-Service (SaaS ) =20 There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group.=20 =20 Linda Dunbar=20 =20 ________________________________ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases =20 I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance. =20 An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =20 =20 Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. =20 Mark Webb =20 =20 On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: =20 Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD735.C9A927C2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Carrier/operators indeed do have a = unique angle to the Cloud-based Services, including but not limited to storage, = data mining/search, computing, and so on.  How does this new type of = services interwork with the existing MPLS-based network technologies?  For = example, how does these service interwork with today’s L2 and L3 VPN = based-services?  How is the virtual separation of the traffic/data/queries = maintained end-to-end for the security conscious customers?  =

 

Ning So

Lead Engineer

Global Data Network Traffic = Planning

972-729-7905

 

=

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Thursday, April 08, = 2010 10:22 AM
To: 'Gene Golovinsky'; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I am looking at a very different = angle of the “Cloud”. Rather than the “IT functions as a service”, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage = Services which can be offered by Service Providers.

Are there anyone else interested in = this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group. =

 

Linda = Dunbar

 

From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, = 2010 7:37 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; = carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; = clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all = basically do the same thing – letting people consume IT functions as = service.

As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, = data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes = on.

 <= /o:p>

Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really = covered.

 <= /o:p>

Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people that care = about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor = technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough = for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically = allocated resources and user info is not consistently available. =

 <= /o:p>

--Gene<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally = different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. =

 =

Linda =

 =

From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark = Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and that is = what was discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the = purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking.  There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was = to conduct a gap analysis.


Carl

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; = clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope = of the Cloud is too big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar BOF. I don’t think it is = appropriate for IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” because it means = different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for = anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:

p     Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS),

p     Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and

p     Software-as-a-Service (SaaS)

 =

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest = separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them = to become a working group.

 =

Linda Dunbar

 =

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use = cases

 

I was not there at the BoF, but did get = reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important perspective is to ensure IETF = does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already = underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to = cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this = point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky = wrote:

 

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF = time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF = meeting, but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD735.C9A927C2-- From ldunbar@huawei.com Thu Apr 8 09:27:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C0AD3A6A67 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:27:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bEXexSYjnVgv for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga02-in.huawei.com (usaga02-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D193A6993 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L0K00MN1GDJFA@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 09:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from L735042 ([10.124.12.68]) by usaga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L0K00GMMGDJAI@usaga02-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 09:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 11:27:19 -0500 From: Linda Dunbar In-reply-to: To: 'Bhumip Khasnabish' Message-id: <00d201cad738$5bf47bd0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Ktmff3yYsNVMi/ZKbIo49w)" Thread-index: AcrXNYsTIXgTEIPWRQ2boiZGpJonhwAAoMYw References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:27:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Ktmff3yYsNVMi/ZKbIo49w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Keeping all the discussion in one email list is good. However, I = recommend people state which application scenario their issues are under. So that = we are not comparing apple with orange.=20 =20 Linda =20 _____ =20 From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:07 AM To: Linda Dunbar Cc: Gene Golovinsky; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. = Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in = the same group please. Thanks a lot. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar = wrote: I am looking at a very different angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than = the =93IT functions as a service=94, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers.=20 Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group.=20 =20 Linda Dunbar =20 _____ =20 From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org=20 Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the same thing =96 letting people consume IT functions as service. As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, = data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. =20 Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with = deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really = covered. =20 Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people = that care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither = ability, nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is = not good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently = available. =20 --Gene =20 =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.=20 =20 Linda=20 =20 _____ =20 From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what = was discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was = to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are = thinking. There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a = gap analysis. Carl =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appropriate for = IETF to have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:=20 * Infrastructure-as-a-Service ( IaaS), * Platform-as-a-Service ( PaaS) and=20 * Software-as-a-Service ( SaaS) =20 There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for = one of them to become a working group.=20 =20 Linda Dunbar=20 =20 _____ =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases =20 I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people = in attendance. =20 An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort = that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does = not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =20 =20 Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. =20 Mark Webb =20 =20 On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: =20 Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds =20 _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --Boundary_(ID_Ktmff3yYsNVMi/ZKbIo49w) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Keeping all the discussion in one = email list is good. However, I recommend people state which application = scenario their issues are under. So that we are not comparing apple with orange. =

 

Linda

 

From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, = 2010 11:07 AM
To: Linda Dunbar
Cc: Gene Golovinsky; = carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; = clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

of course there are and will be many = workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on.  Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service,  cloud-based network service in order to maintain service = continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep = the discussion in the same group please. Thanks a = lot.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar = <ldunbar@huawei.com> = wrote:

I am looking at a very different = angle of the “Cloud”. Rather than the “IT functions as a = service”, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Services which can be offered by = Service Providers.

Are there anyone else interested in = this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group. =

 

Linda = Dunbar

 

From: Gene = Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, = 2010 7:37 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org


Subject: RE: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

While I = agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the = same thing – letting people consume IT functions as = service.

As a result = the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their = access need to be controlled, activities audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on.

 

Cloud = Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. = I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, = but the area of auditing for example is not really covered. =

 

Ability to = audit is really important if we want to insure that people that care about = compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor technology for = that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for the = cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated = resources and user info is not consistently available. =

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I find it difficult that people in = the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.

 

Linda

 

From: Carl = Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark = Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid = distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed = in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking.  = There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap = analysis.


Carl

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope = of the Cloud is too big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar = BOF. I don’t think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on = “CLOUD” because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general = term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can = see three basic categories:

p     Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS),

p     Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and

p     Software-as-a-Service (SaaS)

 

There are a lot of stuff under each = of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if = there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group. =

 

Linda Dunbar =

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark = Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use = cases

 

I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of = people in attendance.

 

An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new = effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The = industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing = IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap = analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in = time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky = wrote:

 

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF = time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF = meeting, but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds=

 


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds




--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the = communiqu=E9.

--Boundary_(ID_Ktmff3yYsNVMi/ZKbIo49w)-- From masum@cisco.com Thu Apr 8 10:31:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E43128C15A for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:31:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SKxDAdbKu3so for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9072B28C141 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AloFALOvvUurR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACBP5l5caF4mSmCXBWCGASDJA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,171,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="511559292" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Apr 2010 17:29:26 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o38HTQr0003578; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:29:26 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.43]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:29:26 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAD741.08C624CA" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:29:23 -0700 Message-ID: <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5C09B@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Thread-Index: AcrWZG3CXjqNFavLQbKotmOiCqs3WAABEIbAAAKmDwAAAKcaoAAn7/1gAAYvOAAABGba4A== References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im><008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org><00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> From: "Masum Hasan (masum)" To: "Linda Dunbar" , "Gene Golovinsky" , , "Mark Webb (mwebb)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Apr 2010 17:29:26.0025 (UTC) FILETIME=[092CAF90:01CAD741] Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 17:31:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD741.08C624CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Focusing on specific area, specially as it relates to network (like "virtual network services for Cloud"), is a good idea to pursue in IETF (so far the focus is lacking).=20 =20 =20 --Masum =20 408 219 9713 Cell 408 853 5926 Desk http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/ http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet) =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:22 AM To: 'Gene Golovinsky'; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb (mwebb); clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I am looking at a very different angle of the "Cloud". Rather than the "IT functions as a service", I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers.=20 Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group.=20 =20 Linda Dunbar =20 ________________________________ From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions as service. As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. =20 Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really covered.=20 =20 Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people that care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available.=20 =20 --Gene =20 =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.=20 =20 Linda=20 =20 ________________________________ From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking. There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis. Carl =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:=20 p Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS ), p Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and=20 p Software-as-a-Service (SaaS ) =20 There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group.=20 =20 Linda Dunbar=20 =20 ________________________________ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases =20 I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance. =20 An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =20 =20 Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. =20 Mark Webb =20 =20 On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: =20 Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD741.08C624CA Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Focusing on = specific area, specially as it relates to network (like “virtual network services for = Cloud”),  is a good idea to pursue in IETF (so far the focus is lacking). =

 

 =

--Masum

 =

408 219 9713   Cell           &nb= sp;      408 853 5926   Desk

http://home= .comcast.net/~masumz/

http://wwwi= n-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet)

 =

 

From:= clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Linda Dunbar
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:22 AM
To: 'Gene Golovinsky'; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb (mwebb); clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too = big

 

I am looking at a very different angle of the “Cloud”. Rather = than the “IT functions as a service”, I am looking at Virtual = Network Services and Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers. =

Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a = separate discussion group.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; = clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too = big

 

While I agree that = SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the same thing = – letting people consume IT functions as service.

As a result the same = multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their access need = to be controlled, activities audited, data protected, functionality = provisioned and the list goes on.

 

Cloud Security = Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read = their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, but the = area of auditing for example is not really covered.

 

Ability to audit is = really important if we want to insure that people that care about compliance = actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is = there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud = simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources = and user info is not consistently available.

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too = big

 

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking = about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving = forward.

 

Linda

 

From: Carl Williams = [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too = big

 

The name is irrelevant = and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction.  The = technology discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed in the = informal meeting.  From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking.  There = seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap = analysis.


Carl

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too = big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar BOF. I don’t think it = is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” = because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general = term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can = see three basic categories:

p  = Infrastructure-as-a= -Service (IaaS),

p  = Platform-as-a-Servi= ce (PaaS) and

p  = Software-as-a-Servi= ce (SaaS)

 

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. = I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough = contents for one of them to become a working group.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

I was not there at the = BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important = perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and = Forum already underway.  The industry does not need more SDO declaring = they are relevant to cloud computing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions = on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued = at this point in time.

 

Mark = Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at = 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

 

Well, I = think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF = meeting, but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD741.08C624CA-- From masum@cisco.com Thu Apr 8 10:36:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44FB328C144 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UbQKle25g5jy for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34C528C14F for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AloFAO+vvUurR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACBP5l5caF8mSmCEkoVghgEgyQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,171,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="112452835" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Apr 2010 17:34:52 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o38HYq2o016147; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:34:52 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.43]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:34:52 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAD741.CB8C0C48" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:34:51 -0700 Message-ID: <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5C0AB@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Thread-Index: AcrXLujbh3xcXg7PSMSXWnS9N9HeDwAEkF2w References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im><008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org><00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><9DF482BD-96B8-4E85-941C-190134DBB2CC@cisco.com> From: "Masum Hasan (masum)" To: "Sam Johnston" , "Gene Golovinsky" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Apr 2010 17:34:52.0614 (UTC) FILETIME=[CBD63660:01CAD741] Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 17:36:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD741.CB8C0C48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re. your comment on pursuing "storage API like Amazon's S3" in IETF. Why that is needed when storage networking SDO SNIA is working on one (SNIA CDMI)? =20 =20 --Masum =20 408 219 9713 Cell 408 853 5926 Desk http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/ http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet) =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sam Johnston Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:19 AM To: Gene Golovinsky Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 Gene, =20 You're definitely not alone in thinking this would be a worthy topic for IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco's Chris Hoff) and author of the existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd love to see IETF people starting to work with the group. We have weekly calls on Monday at 10am PST/1pm EST and discuss in the cloudaudit Google Group[1]. The goal for v1 is to create a trivial HTTP-based interface that can be implemented by uploading files rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's OCCI working group has produced a number of Internet-Drafts that could be picked up by IETF. =20 Another area that I think would be very interesting for IETF to take on (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, HTTP-based storage API like Amazon's S3 - only without the potential patent problems[2]. I believe that HTTP already takes care of many/most of the issues (e.g. authentication, encryption, ranged GETs, etc.) and IETF has proven experience in the area (WebDAV). =20 Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how to remotely instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, moving a virtual machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a mobile device on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a good start (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed and possibly promoted for more generic application. =20 Considering that most of these APIs (at least the ones I'm involved in) are trying to be as close as possible to the "uniform interface" of HTTP, I believe there's benefit to be had in reviewing the relevant RFCs with these new applications in mind. For example, while HTTP has a perfectly good metadata channel (headers) and thus obviates the need for envelope formats (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability to link, annotate and categorise resources. It also has some internationalisation problems (e.g. ASCII) and inefficient serialisation (e.g. SPDY). HTTP 1.1 has served us well for many years but perhaps it's time to start thinking about what HTTP 2.0 might look like? =20 Sam =20 --=20 Sam Johnston Technical Program Manager Site Reliability Engineering Google Switzerland GmbH =20 1. http://groups.google.com/group/cloudaudit 2. http://tinyurl.com/s3patent 3. http://code.google.com/p/cush/ =20 On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky wrote: http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard. The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF: http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid9 7_gci1508024,00.html =20 Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to take on. When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going to be a lot of work to make it a standard. =20 At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Cloud Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group. Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and how critical Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2. =20 --Gene =20 =20 =20 From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Cc: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 Look at=20 =20 http://www.cloudaudit.org/ =20 For cloud audit. It is difficult to specify audit when the services are so different today. =20 =20 The industry has not settled on a small set of services definitions of what "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, PaaS? When the services offered in that space are so different? IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of cloud. =20 =20 So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is something that IETF can specify? OK that was rhetorical. My point is, the real opportunity is to look for elements that are mature enough to have some problem to be solved defined. Then ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO or Forum are already working on. =20 Mark Webb ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD741.CB8C0C48 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Re. your comment on pursuing “storage API = like Amazon's S3” in IETF. Why that is needed when storage networking = SDO SNIA is working on one (SNIA CDMI)?

 

 =

--Masum

 =

408 219 9713   Cell           &nb= sp;      408 853 5926   Desk

http://home= .comcast.net/~masumz/

http://wwwi= n-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet)

 =

 

From:= clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Sam Johnston
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:19 AM
To: Gene Golovinsky
Cc: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too = big

 

Gene,

 

You're definitely not alone in thinking this would = be a worthy topic for IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco's Chris = Hoff) and author of the existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd love to see IETF people starting to work with the group. We have weekly calls on Monday at 10am = PST/1pm EST and discuss in the cloudaudit Google Group[1]. The goal for v1 is to = create a trivial HTTP-based interface that can be implemented by uploading = files rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's OCCI working group has produced a = number of Internet-Drafts that could be picked up by IETF.

 

Another area that I think would be very interesting = for IETF to take on (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, = HTTP-based storage API like Amazon's S3 - only without the potential patent = problems[2]. I believe that HTTP already takes care of many/most of the issues (e.g. authentication, encryption, ranged GETs, etc.) and IETF has proven = experience in the area (WebDAV).

 

Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was = how to remotely instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, = moving a virtual machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a = mobile device on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a = good start (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed and possibly promoted for more generic application.

 

Considering that most of these APIs (at least the = ones I'm involved in) are trying to be as close as possible to the "uniform interface" of HTTP, I believe there's benefit to be had in = reviewing the relevant RFCs with these new applications in mind. For example, = while HTTP has a perfectly good metadata channel (headers) and thus obviates the = need for envelope formats (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability to link, = annotate and categorise resources. It also has some internationalisation problems = (e.g. ASCII) and inefficient serialisation (e.g. SPDY). HTTP 1.1 has served us = well for many years but perhaps it's time to start thinking about what HTTP = 2.0 might look like?

 

Sam

 

-- 
Sam Johnston

Technical Program Manager

Site Reliability Engineering

Google Switzerland GmbH

 

3. http://code.google.com/p/cush/

 

On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky <gene@alertlogic.com> wrote:

http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a = standard.

The plan for the group is to = submit proposal to the IETF:

http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news/interv= iew/0,289202,sid97_gci1508024,00.html

 

Which means I am not alone = thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to take on.

When and if the proposal will = be submitted there is still going to be a lot of work to make it a = standard.

 

At least two approaches are = possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Cloud Audit proposal. 2. Start working with = the group.

Considering how fast Cloud = technologies have been evolving and how critical Security is for the adoption of it I = am for #2.

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Cc: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky


Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too = big

 

Look at 

 

 

For cloud audit.  It is difficult to specify = audit when the services are so different today.  

 

The industry has not settled on a small set of = services definitions of what "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, = PaaS?  When the services offered in that space are so different? =  IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of cloud.  

 

So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is something that IETF can specify?  OK that = was rhetorical.  My point is, the real opportunity is to look for = elements that are mature enough to have some problem to be solved defined. =  Then ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO or Forum are already = working on.

 

Mark Webb

------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD741.CB8C0C48-- From mark.carlson@oracle.com Thu Apr 8 10:40:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C123A6AA6 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:40:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n6Wjisut8Oi8 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet11.oracle.com (rcsinet11.oracle.com [148.87.113.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0BA3A6A8D for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rcsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o38Hdbia019592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:39:39 GMT Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rcsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o38GBiW1030675 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:39:36 GMT Received: from abhmt018.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 158599961270748374; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:39:34 -0700 Received: from Macintosh-335.local (/67.166.17.211) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:39:33 -0700 Message-ID: <4BBE14D5.3030307@oracle.com> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 11:39:33 -0600 From: Mark Carlson Organization: Oracle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: clouds@ietf.org References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im><008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org><00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><9DF482BD-96B8-4E85-941C-190134DBB2CC@cisco.com> <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5C0AB@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5C0AB@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090606060506050300020401" X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4BBE14D9.007C:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 17:40:55 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090606060506050300020401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Exactly. http://snia.org/cloud - CDMI is essentially done. -- mark On 4/8/10 11:34 AM, Masum Hasan (masum) wrote: > > Re. your comment on pursuing "storage API like Amazon's S3" in IETF. > Why that is needed when storage networking SDO SNIA is working on one > (SNIA CDMI)? > > --Masum > > 408 219 9713 Cell 408 853 5926 Desk > > http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/ > > http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet) > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Sam Johnston > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:19 AM > *To:* Gene Golovinsky > *Cc:* clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > Gene, > > You're definitely not alone in thinking this would be a worthy topic > for IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco's Chris Hoff) and > author of the existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd love to see IETF > people starting to work with the group. We have weekly calls on Monday > at 10am PST/1pm EST and discuss in the cloudaudit Google Group[1]. The > goal for v1 is to create a trivial HTTP-based interface that can be > implemented by uploading files rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's > OCCI working group has produced a number of Internet-Drafts that could > be picked up by IETF. > > Another area that I think would be very interesting for IETF to take > on (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, HTTP-based > storage API like Amazon's S3 - only without the potential patent > problems[2]. I believe that HTTP already takes care of many/most of > the issues (e.g. authentication, encryption, ranged GETs, etc.) and > IETF has proven experience in the area (WebDAV). > > Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how to remotely > instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, moving a > virtual machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a > mobile device on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE > verbs are a good start (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they > could be reviewed and possibly promoted for more generic application. > > Considering that most of these APIs (at least the ones I'm involved > in) are trying to be as close as possible to the "uniform interface" > of HTTP, I believe there's benefit to be had in reviewing the relevant > RFCs with these new applications in mind. For example, while HTTP has > a perfectly good metadata channel (headers) and thus obviates the need > for envelope formats (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability to link, > annotate and categorise resources. It also has some > internationalisation problems (e.g. ASCII) and inefficient > serialisation (e.g. SPDY). HTTP 1.1 has served us well for many years > but perhaps it's time to start thinking about what HTTP 2.0 might look > like? > > Sam > > -- > *Sam Johnston* > > /Technical Program Manager/ > > Site Reliability Engineering > > Google Switzerland GmbH > > 1. http://groups.google.com/group/cloudaudit > 2. http://tinyurl.com/s3patent > > 3. http://code.google.com/p/cush/ > > On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky > wrote: > > http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard. > > The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF: > > http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid97_gci1508024,00.html > > Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to > take on. > > When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going to be > a lot of work to make it a standard. > > At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for > Cloud Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group. > > Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and how > critical Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2. > > --Gene > > *From:* Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com ] > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Cc:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org ; > Gene Golovinsky > > > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > Look at > > http://www.cloudaudit.org/ > > For cloud audit. It is difficult to specify audit when the services > are so different today. > > The industry has not settled on a small set of services definitions of > what "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, PaaS? When the services > offered in that space are so different? IaaS is the most mature and > perhaps the lcd of cloud. > > So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is > something that IETF can specify? OK that was rhetorical. My point > is, the real opportunity is to look for elements that are mature > enough to have some problem to be solved defined. Then ensure you are > not duplicating what other SDO or Forum are already working on. > > Mark Webb > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > --------------090606060506050300020401 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Exactly. http://snia.org/cloud - CDMI is essentially done.

-- mark

On 4/8/10 11:34 AM, Masum Hasan (masum) wrote:

Re. your comment on pursuing “storage API like Amazon's S3” in IETF. Why that is needed when storage networking SDO SNIA is working on one (SNIA CDMI)?

 

 

--Masum

 

408 219 9713   Cell                  408 853 5926   Desk

http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/

http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet)

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sam Johnston
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:19 AM
To: Gene Golovinsky
Cc: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

Gene,

 

You're definitely not alone in thinking this would be a worthy topic for IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco's Chris Hoff) and author of the existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd love to see IETF people starting to work with the group. We have weekly calls on Monday at 10am PST/1pm EST and discuss in the cloudaudit Google Group[1]. The goal for v1 is to create a trivial HTTP-based interface that can be implemented by uploading files rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's OCCI working group has produced a number of Internet-Drafts that could be picked up by IETF.

 

Another area that I think would be very interesting for IETF to take on (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, HTTP-based storage API like Amazon's S3 - only without the potential patent problems[2]. I believe that HTTP already takes care of many/most of the issues (e.g. authentication, encryption, ranged GETs, etc.) and IETF has proven experience in the area (WebDAV).

 

Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how to remotely instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, moving a virtual machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a mobile device on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a good start (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed and possibly promoted for more generic application.

 

Considering that most of these APIs (at least the ones I'm involved in) are trying to be as close as possible to the "uniform interface" of HTTP, I believe there's benefit to be had in reviewing the relevant RFCs with these new applications in mind. For example, while HTTP has a perfectly good metadata channel (headers) and thus obviates the need for envelope formats (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability to link, annotate and categorise resources. It also has some internationalisation problems (e.g. ASCII) and inefficient serialisation (e.g. SPDY). HTTP 1.1 has served us well for many years but perhaps it's time to start thinking about what HTTP 2.0 might look like?

 

Sam

 

-- 
Sam Johnston

Technical Program Manager

Site Reliability Engineering

Google Switzerland GmbH

 

3. http://code.google.com/p/cush/

 

On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky <gene@alertlogic.com> wrote:

http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard.

The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF:

http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid97_gci1508024,00.html

 

Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to take on.

When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going to be a lot of work to make it a standard.

 

At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Cloud Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group.

Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and how critical Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2.

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Cc: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky


Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

Look at 

 

 

For cloud audit.  It is difficult to specify audit when the services are so different today.  

 

The industry has not settled on a small set of services definitions of what "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, PaaS?  When the services offered in that space are so different?  IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of cloud.  

 

So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is something that IETF can specify?  OK that was rhetorical.  My point is, the real opportunity is to look for elements that are mature enough to have some problem to be solved defined.  Then ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO or Forum are already working on.

 

Mark Webb


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds
--------------090606060506050300020401-- From shore@arsc.edu Thu Apr 8 11:51:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4687F28C0FE for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:51:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SIMm7OfwhFk6 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arsc.edu (mail1.arsc.edu [IPv6:2001:480:150:75::229]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331BA28C0CF for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from viking-e0.arsc.edu (viking-e0.arsc.edu [IPv6:2001:480:150:860:223:32ff:feda:4a52]) by arsc.edu (20090828.ARSC) with ESMTP id o38IowBS018226; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:50:58 -0800 (AKDT) Message-Id: <8FA8FF27-FB6D-42EF-A056-6D631D4A2F04@arsc.edu> From: Melinda Shore To: Bhumip Khasnabish In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:50:58 -0800 References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-CanIt-Geo: No geolocation information available for 2001:480:150:860:223:32ff:feda:4a52 X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on IPv6:2001:480:150:75::167 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 18:51:58 -0000 On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Bhumip Khasnabish wrote: > of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of > cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. Cloud- > based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based > network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster- > tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the > discussion in the same group please. Thanks a lot. I think it might be worthwhile for people who are fishing for work to do to sit down and take a look at the charters for some established working groups, with a particular eye to how the work is scoped, how the deliverables are defined, and so on. I think it's kind of weird that people want to work on something but they aren't sure what - usually it's an idea or ideas that drive work, or at least some problem that's got at least some wee little bit of definition - but as long as people seem intent on taking this approach it might help to have some sense of what this flailing about ought to produce. Work in the IETF is much more narrowly-focused and precisely-scoped than is the norm in other standards bodies and/or industry consortia. Melinda From mark.carlson@oracle.com Thu Apr 8 12:09:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D314B28C11B for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:09:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kzcxyjFS662a for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com (acsinet11.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51C228C121 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o38J9HA6005443 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 8 Apr 2010 19:09:19 GMT Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o38D2WEI003205; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 19:09:16 GMT Received: from abhmt002.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 158918371270753653; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 12:07:33 -0700 Received: from Macintosh-335.local (/67.166.17.211) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 12:07:33 -0700 Message-ID: <4BBE2973.2080003@oracle.com> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:07:31 -0600 From: Mark Carlson Organization: Oracle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Melinda Shore References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <8FA8FF27-FB6D-42EF-A056-6D631D4A2F04@arsc.edu> In-Reply-To: <8FA8FF27-FB6D-42EF-A056-6D631D4A2F04@arsc.edu> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030206070205060606050105" X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4BBE29DD.0069:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 19:09:50 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030206070205060606050105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Agreed. If you want a good place to start, go to: http://cloud-standards.org We are already coordinating cloud work from the various SDOs there, and IETF is represented by Dan Romascanu . -- mark On 4/8/10 12:50 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Bhumip Khasnabish wrote: >> of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of >> cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. >> Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, >> cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, >> disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we >> keep the discussion in the same group please. Thanks a lot. > > I think it might be worthwhile for people who are fishing > for work to do to sit down and take a look at the charters > for some established working groups, with a particular eye > to how the work is scoped, how the deliverables are > defined, and so on. I think it's kind of weird that > people want to work on something but they aren't sure what - > usually it's an idea or ideas that drive work, or at least > some problem that's got at least some wee little bit of > definition - but as long as people seem intent on taking > this approach it might help to have some sense of what > this flailing about ought to produce. Work in the IETF is > much more narrowly-focused and precisely-scoped than is > the norm in other standards bodies and/or industry consortia. > > Melinda > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --------------030206070205060606050105 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Agreed. If you want a good place to start, go to:

http://cloud-standards.org

We are already coordinating cloud work from the various
SDOs there, and IETF is represented by Dan Romascanu.

-- mark

On 4/8/10 12:50 PM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Bhumip Khasnabish wrote:
of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on.  Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service,  cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in the same group please. Thanks a lot.

I think it might be worthwhile for people who are fishing
for work to do to sit down and take a look at the charters
for some established working groups, with a particular eye
to how the work is scoped, how the deliverables are
defined, and so on.  I think it's kind of weird that
people want to work on something but they aren't sure what -
usually it's an idea or ideas that drive work, or at least
some problem that's got at least some wee little bit of
definition - but as long as people seem intent on taking
this approach it might help to have some sense of what
this flailing about ought to produce.  Work in the IETF is
much more narrowly-focused and precisely-scoped than is
the norm in other standards bodies and/or industry consortia.

Melinda

_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds
--------------030206070205060606050105-- From gene@alertlogic.com Thu Apr 8 12:17:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94793A6ADF for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:17:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.684 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.684 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.580, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJAN7ZouBxZo for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp141.dfw.emailsrvr.com (smtp141.dfw.emailsrvr.com [67.192.241.141]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06193A6AB8 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay14.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay14.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 73C6E9087F3; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com [67.192.133.192]) by relay14.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 3914D908D41; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 222716-HUB11.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (192.168.1.205) by 222721-HUB08.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (192.168.1.207) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.393.1; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:17:06 -0500 Received: from 34093-MBX-C01.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.62]) by 222716-HUB11.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.205]) with mapi; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:17:06 -0500 From: Gene Golovinsky To: Bhumip Khasnabish , Linda Dunbar Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:17:05 -0500 Thread-Topic: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Thread-Index: AcrXNZBrpNT0MH+3T8eb/EHkrJtdHAAGRrNA Message-ID: References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189619B234093MBXC01me_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 19:17:27 -0000 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189619B234093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am sure that different people are interested in aspects of Cloud technolo= gies. Much as there are multiple areas of interest for the Internet. But precisely because the conversation is still in its infancy it is probab= ly useful to keep it in the same context at least for now. In the same time to avoid talking past each other and to make the scope mor= e manageable, should we pick a topic or two? This way conversation will be more focused. Can I suggest logging and auditing? Like I pointed out before, lack of cons= istent logging and auditing facilities prevents people requiring compliance= from adopting cloud technologies. --Gene From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:07 AM To: Linda Dunbar Cc: Gene Golovinsky; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-ba= sed systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. Cloud-based storage,= cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based network service in or= der to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. = are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in the same group please. Th= anks a lot. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar > wrote: I am looking at a very different angle of the "Cloud". Rather than the "IT = functions as a service", I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Stora= ge Services which can be offered by Service Providers. Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separ= ate discussion group. Linda Dunbar ________________________________ From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com] Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark We= bb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all ba= sically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions as service. As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authen= ticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, data prote= cted, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with th= ose issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment rec= ommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really covered. Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people that = care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability,= nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is no= t good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and d= ynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available. --Gene From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunb= ar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ie= tf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally diff= erent subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. Linda ________________________________ From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org= ] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distr= action. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was dis= cussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was to ge= t some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking. T= here seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap an= alysis. Carl From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunb= ar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IETF to= have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to diffe= rent people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves d= elivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories: * Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS), * Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and * Software-as-a-Service (SaaS) There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest sepa= rating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of th= em to become a working group. Linda Dunbar ________________________________ From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in = attendance. An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that= overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does not= need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _m= ost_ that should be pursued at this point in time. Mark Webb On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditi= onally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:cloud= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds -- Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189619B234093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am sure that different people are interested in aspects of Cloud technologies. Much as there are multiple areas of interest for the Internet.

But precisely because the conversation is still in its infan= cy it is probably useful to keep it in the same context at least for now.

 

In the same time to avoid talking past each other and to mak= e the scope more manageable, should we pick a topic or two?=

This way conversation will be more focused.

 

Can I suggest logging and auditing? Like I pointed out befor= e, lack of consistent logging and auditing facilities prevents people requirin= g compliance from adopting cloud technologies.

 

--Gene

 

 

 

 

 

From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.= com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:07 AM
To: Linda Dunbar
Cc: Gene Golovinsky; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; clouds@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

of course there are and will be many workitems wit= hin the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on.  Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service,  cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the = discussion in the same group please. Thanks a lot.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:2= 1 AM, Linda Dunbar <ldunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

I am looking at a very different angle of the “Cloud”. Rather tha= n the “IT functions as a service”, I am looking at Virtual Networ= k Services and Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers.

Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: Gene Golovins= ky [mailto:gene@alert= logic.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ie= tf.org


Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categor= ies they all basically do the same thing – letting people consume IT functions as service.

As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users ne= ed to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited= , data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on.=

 

Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessari= ly deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not rea= lly covered.

 

Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure th= at people that care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neit= her ability, nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslo= g) is not good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared = and dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available= .

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ie= tf.org [mailto:clouds= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@m= csr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ie= tf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally differ= ent subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.

 

Linda

 

From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr= -labs.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change= to avoid distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and that= is what was discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people= are thinking.  There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis.


Carl

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ie= tf.org [mailto:clouds= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar BOF. I don’t think it is appropriate f= or IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” because it means differ= ent things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything = that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:

p     Infrastructure-as-a-S= ervice (IaaS),

p     Platform-as-a-Service= (PaaS) and

p     Software-as-a-Service= (SaaS)

 

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

From: clouds-bounces@ie= tf.org [mailto:clouds= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf= .org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

 

I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

 

An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT star= t a new effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway.  T= he industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud comput= ing IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate= gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:=

 

Well, I thi= nk this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-b= ounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting,= but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous t= hat folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

 


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds




--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9.<= /o:p>

--_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D4104189619B234093MBXC01me_-- From mwebb@cisco.com Thu Apr 8 12:30:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D9A3A6A8B for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:30:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y1zT8dd0HSCW for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6123A6AB8 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Al8FAFvLvUtAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACBP44si05xohmZM4JcFYIYBA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,172,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="100144710" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Apr 2010 19:30:02 +0000 Received: from rtp-mwebb-8713.cisco.com (rtp-mwebb-8713.cisco.com [10.116.65.196]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o38JU0gA024487; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 19:30:00 GMT Message-Id: <88211173-A7E9-4603-928A-4618174C7CA4@cisco.com> From: Mark Webb To: Gene Golovinsky , clouds@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-71-390023981 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:29:59 -0400 References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 19:30:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail-71-390023981 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not trying to be in disagreement, However, the job to be done is a =20 still experiencing a high rate of change IMO. So, what of the broad set of things possible within the scope of =20 cloud, would you like to log and audit? Alternately, I think what we are seeing people discuss is CSA-like =20 best practices & SAS-70 assurances from providers acting as a =20 substitute for audit for some time until services are solidified. Mark On Apr 8, 2010, at 3:17 PM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > I am sure that different people are interested in aspects of Cloud =20 > technologies. Much as there are multiple areas of interest for the =20 > Internet. > But precisely because the conversation is still in its infancy it is =20= > probably useful to keep it in the same context at least for now. > > In the same time to avoid talking past each other and to make the =20 > scope more manageable, should we pick a topic or two? > This way conversation will be more focused. > > Can I suggest logging and auditing? Like I pointed out before, lack =20= > of consistent logging and auditing facilities prevents people =20 > requiring compliance from adopting cloud technologies. > > --Gene > > > > > > From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:07 AM > To: Linda Dunbar > Cc: Gene Golovinsky; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of =20 > cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. Cloud-=20= > based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based =20= > network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-=20 > tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the =20 > discussion in the same group please. Thanks a lot. > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar =20 > wrote: > I am looking at a very different angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than = =20 > the =93IT functions as a service=94, I am looking at Virtual Network =20= > Services and Storage Services which can be offered by Service =20 > Providers. > Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form =20= > a separate discussion group. > > Linda Dunbar > > From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM > To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they =20= > all basically do the same thing =96 letting people consume IT =20 > functions as service. > As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be =20= > authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities =20 > audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes =20= > on. > > Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal =20= > with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with =20= > deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is =20= > not really covered. > > Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that =20 > people that care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. =20 > Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is there. While =20 > traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud simply =20= > because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated =20 > resources and user info is not consistently available. > > --Gene > > > > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On =20 > Behalf Of Linda Dunbar > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM > To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about =20 > totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving =20 > forward. > > Linda > > From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM > To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to =20 > avoid distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and =20 > that is what was discussed in the informal meeting. =46rom what I can = =20 > tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and =20= > see what people are thinking. There seems to be some conclusion =20 > that the next step was to conduct a gap analysis. > > Carl > > > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On =20 > Behalf Of Linda Dunbar > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM > To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appropriate = for =20 > IETF to have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means different = =20 > things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for =20 > anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can =20= > see three basic categories: > p Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS), > p Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and > p Software-as-a-Service (SaaS) > > There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I =20 > suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough =20 > contents for one of them to become a working group. > > Linda Dunbar > > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On =20 > Behalf Of Mark Webb > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of =20 > people in attendance. > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new =20 > effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The =20= > industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud =20= > computing IMO. > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is =20= > the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > Mark Webb > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is =20= > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On =20 > Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could =20= > not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so =20 > nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > > --=20 > Best Regards. > > Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) > > =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the =20= > content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the =20 > communiqu=E9. --Apple-Mail-71-390023981 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not trying to be in = disagreement,  However, the job to be done is a still experiencing = a high rate of change IMO.

So, what of the broad set = of things possible within the scope of cloud, would you like to log and = audit?

Alternately, I think what we are seeing = people discuss is CSA-like best practices & SAS-70 assurances from = providers acting as a substitute for audit for some time until services = are solidified.

Mark

On = Apr 8, 2010, at 3:17 PM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

I am sure that different people are interested in = aspects of Cloud technologies. Much as there are multiple areas of = interest for the Internet.
But precisely because the = conversation is still in its infancy it is probably useful to keep it in = the same context at least for now.
In the same time to avoid talking past each other = and to make the scope more manageable, should we pick a topic or = two?
This way conversation will be more = focused.
 
Can I suggest logging and = auditing? Like I pointed out before, lack of consistent logging and = auditing facilities prevents people requiring compliance from adopting = cloud technologies.
 
 
 
 
 Bhumip = Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 = 11:07 AM
To: Linda = Dunbar
Cc: Gene Golovinsky; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the = Cloud is too big
of course there = are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, = services, inter-cloud system, and so on.  Cloud-based storage, = cloud-based mobile-data backup service,  cloud-based network = service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant = communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in = the same group please. Thanks a lot.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar <ldunbar@huawei.com> = wrote:
I am looking at = a very different angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than the =93IT = functions as a service=94, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and = Storage Services which can be offered by Service = Providers.
Are there anyone = else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion = group.
Linda = Dunbar
From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 = 7:37 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark = Webb'; 
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the = Cloud is too big
 clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 = 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark = Webb';  Re: [clouds] Scope of the = Cloud is too big
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 = 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb';  [clouds] Scope of the Cloud = is too big
 There are a lot = of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them = and further studying if there are enough contents for one of them to = become a working group.
 clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark = Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 = 10:09 AM
To:  Re: [clouds] Use = cases

 

Well, I think this is = a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to move the = discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white = paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are = topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its = efforts.

--Gene


-----Original = Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 = AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky = wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at = last IETF meeting, but could = not
>       really figure out if the = WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the = discussion was so nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a = WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
clouds@ietf.org
clouds@ietf.org



-- 
Best = Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do = not view, print, forward, and save the content of this email if you are = not the intended recipient of the = communiqu=E9.


= --Apple-Mail-71-390023981-- From sfleece@tmforum.org Thu Apr 8 12:34:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 344BD3A6B1B for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:34:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4dC2h-kqLmKa for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MIS005-3.exch005intermedia.net (mis005-3.exch005intermedia.net [64.78.17.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297943A6AF1 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Importance: normal Priority: normal Received: from EXVBE005-1.exch005intermedia.net ([10.254.1.72]) by MIS005-3.exch005intermedia.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:34:19 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.4325 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAD752.398F2490" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:33:35 -0700 Message-ID: <037A5997CB9E104ABB1E1FA80858FD560773BEB7@EXVBE005-1.exch005intermedia.net> In-Reply-To: <4BBE2973.2080003@oracle.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Thread-Index: AcrXUmFdVmoacU5qT7qERafhw3etjg== References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <8FA8FF27-FB6D-42EF-A056-6D631D4A2F04@arsc.edu> <4BBE2973.2080003@oracle.com> From: "Stephen Fleece" To: "Mark Carlson" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Apr 2010 19:34:19.0302 (UTC) FILETIME=[7B840460:01CAD752] Cc: Matthew edwards Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 19:34:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD752.398F2490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, thanks for bringing this opportunity for up. There's plenty of work to do in best practices and standards for all of us, but we need to be smart about it so we can make the most efficient and positive impact on industry and society. =20 Stephen Fleece TM Forum =20 From: Mark Carlson [mailto:mark.carlson@oracle.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 3:08 PM To: Melinda Shore Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 Agreed. If you want a good place to start, go to: http://cloud-standards.org We are already coordinating cloud work from the various SDOs there, and IETF is represented by Dan Romascanu . -- mark =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD752.398F2490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark, thanks for bringing this opportunity for up.  = There’s plenty of work to do in best practices and standards for all of us, but = we need to be smart about it so we can make the most efficient and positive = impact on industry and society.

 

Stephen Fleece

TM Forum

 

From: Mark Carlson = [mailto:mark.carlson@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 3:08 PM
To: Melinda Shore
Cc: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too = big

 

Agreed. If you = want a good place to start, go to:

http://cloud-standards.org

We are already coordinating cloud work from the various
SDOs there, and IETF is represented by Dan = Romascanu.

-- mark

 


This message contains confidential information and is intended only = for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should = not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the = sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake = and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be = guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be = intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or = contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any = errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a = result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please = request a hard-copy version. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD752.398F2490-- From ldunbar@huawei.com Thu Apr 8 12:54:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFB13A6945 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:54:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.273 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.273 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mUCcF8U9bJph for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga04-in.huawei.com (usaga04-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.180]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C1D3A6868 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga04-in [172.18.4.101]) by usaga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L0K00E6YPXNMV@usaga04-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:53:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from L735042 ([10.193.101.53]) by usaga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L0K00EHLPXI8U@usaga04-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:53:47 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:53:42 -0500 From: Linda Dunbar In-reply-to: To: 'Gene Golovinsky' , 'Bhumip Khasnabish' Message-id: <019c01cad755$32992610$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_c3LSWJOFvyzutRVBkMBtjQ)" Thread-index: AcrXNZBrpNT0MH+3T8eb/EHkrJtdHAAGRrNAAAFPPhA= References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 19:54:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_c3LSWJOFvyzutRVBkMBtjQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable For a group discussing =93logging and auditing=94 aspects of Cloud, it = should have a separate name for the group (definitely not =93Cloud=94).=20 =20 Having a name being =93cloud=94, you will just invite all other = discussions which are not related to =93Logging and Auditing=94.=20 =20 Linda=20 =20 _____ =20 From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 2:17 PM To: Bhumip Khasnabish; Linda Dunbar Cc: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I am sure that different people are interested in aspects of Cloud technologies. Much as there are multiple areas of interest for the = Internet. But precisely because the conversation is still in its infancy it is probably useful to keep it in the same context at least for now. =20 In the same time to avoid talking past each other and to make the scope = more manageable, should we pick a topic or two? This way conversation will be more focused. =20 Can I suggest logging and auditing? Like I pointed out before, lack of consistent logging and auditing facilities prevents people requiring compliance from adopting cloud technologies.=20 =20 --Gene =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:07 AM To: Linda Dunbar Cc: Gene Golovinsky; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. = Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in = the same group please. Thanks a lot. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar = wrote: I am looking at a very different angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than = the =93IT functions as a service=94, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers.=20 Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group.=20 =20 Linda Dunbar =20 _____ =20 From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org=20 Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the same thing =96 letting people consume IT functions as service. As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, = data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. =20 Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with = deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really = covered. =20 Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people = that care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither = ability, nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is = not good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently = available. =20 --Gene =20 =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.=20 =20 Linda=20 =20 _____ =20 From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what = was discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was = to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are = thinking. There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a = gap analysis. Carl =20 =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appropriate for = IETF to have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means different things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories:=20 * Infrastructure-as-a-Service ( IaaS), * Platform-as-a-Service ( PaaS) and=20 * Software-as-a-Service ( SaaS) =20 There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for = one of them to become a working group.=20 =20 Linda Dunbar=20 =20 _____ =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Mark Webb Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases =20 I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people = in attendance. =20 An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort = that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does = not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =20 =20 Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. =20 Mark Webb =20 =20 On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: =20 Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. How can I help to move the discussion forward? Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts. --Gene -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM To: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > really figure out if the WG was chartered. It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds =20 _______________________________________________ clouds mailing list clouds@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --Boundary_(ID_c3LSWJOFvyzutRVBkMBtjQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

For a group discussing = “logging and auditing” aspects of Cloud, it should have a separate name for the = group (definitely not “Cloud”).

 

Having a name being = “cloud”, you will just invite all other discussions which are not related to = “Logging and Auditing”.

 

Linda

 

From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, = 2010 2:17 PM
To: Bhumip Khasnabish; = Linda Dunbar
Cc: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I am sure that different people are interested in aspects of Cloud = technologies. Much as there are multiple areas of interest for the = Internet.

But precisely because the conversation is still in its infancy it is = probably useful to keep it in the same context at least for = now.

 <= /o:p>

In the same time to avoid talking past each other and to make the scope = more manageable, should we pick a topic or two?

This way conversation will be more focused.

 <= /o:p>

Can I suggest logging and auditing? Like I pointed out before, lack of = consistent logging and auditing facilities prevents people requiring compliance = from adopting cloud technologies.

 <= /o:p>

--Gene<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, = 2010 11:07 AM
To: Linda Dunbar
Cc: Gene Golovinsky; = carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb; = clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

of course there are and will be many = workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on.  Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, =  cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, = disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in = the same group please. Thanks a lot.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar = <ldunbar@huawei.com> = wrote:

I am looking at a very different = angle of the “Cloud”. Rather than the “IT functions as a service”, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage = Services which can be offered by Service Providers.

Are there anyone else interested in = this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group. =

 

Linda = Dunbar

 

From: Gene = Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, = 2010 7:37 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org


Subject: RE: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

While I = agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all basically do the = same thing – letting people consume IT functions as = service.

As a result = the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be authenticated, their = access need to be controlled, activities audited, data protected, functionality = provisioned and the list goes on.

 

Cloud = Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with those issues. = I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment recommendations, = but the area of auditing for example is not really covered. =

 

Ability to = audit is really important if we want to insure that people that care about = compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, nor technology for = that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not good enough for the = cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and dynamically allocated = resources and user info is not consistently available. =

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

I find it difficult that people in = the same room talking about totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.

 

Linda

 

From: Carl = Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark = Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid = distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and that is what was discussed = in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking.  = There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap = analysis.


Carl

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope = of the Cloud is too big

 

I attended the CLOUD’s bar = BOF. I don’t think it is appropriate for IETF to have a working group on “CLOUD” because it means different things to different = people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic categories: =

p     Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS),

p     Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and

p     Software-as-a-Service (SaaS)

 

There are a lot of stuff under each = of the categories above. I suggest separating them and further studying if = there are enough contents for one of them to become a working group. =

 

Linda Dunbar =

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark = Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April = 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use = cases

 

I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of = people in attendance.

 

An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new = effort that overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The = industry does not need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing = IMO.  

 

Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap = analysis is the _most_ that should be pursued at this point in = time.

 

Mark Webb

 

 

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky = wrote:

 

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF = time and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditionally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF = meeting, but could not
>       really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous that folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds=

 


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds




--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the = communiqu=E9.

--Boundary_(ID_c3LSWJOFvyzutRVBkMBtjQ)-- From sjj@google.com Thu Apr 8 14:03:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51513A6A7A for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c+0bUXg9sSz0 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [74.125.121.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B553A67A4 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kpbe20.cbf.corp.google.com (kpbe20.cbf.corp.google.com [172.25.105.84]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o38L3RlU027892 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:03:28 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1270760608; bh=81llUY96fzNMyHmQ2TiDiPUIjfQ=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=Y/wMlZSVNeJJ1TSdnDR36UDT79N2fmKRjyA1qfVpRGCxkNO62vyZRkquhObprr6Jv Xsi+P9DLFofw+QMtjOIqw== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=mEQ48zJSeXfBaJPaLC/jgHbhJN9wR+cZsgzYm88gh37yjDoiup5uBu2RpVlTc/phm 36H9IcBKHjvcdfP3cxcrA== Received: from bwz28 (bwz28.prod.google.com [10.188.26.28]) by kpbe20.cbf.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o38L3PMN024045 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:26 -0700 Received: by bwz28 with SMTP id 28so2090500bwz.34 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:03:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.136.210 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BBE14D5.3030307@oracle.com> References: <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <9DF482BD-96B8-4E85-941C-190134DBB2CC@cisco.com> <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5C0AB@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> <4BBE14D5.3030307@oracle.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:03:22 +0200 Received: by 10.204.22.75 with SMTP id m11mr762806bkb.51.1270760602640; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Sam Johnston To: Mark Carlson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555404a52b40c0483c00293 X-System-Of-Record: true Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:03:37 -0000 --00032555404a52b40c0483c00293 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, I should perhaps have been more specific. I'm well aware of CDMI but am looking for something simple and lightweight, somewhere between HTTP and WebDAV rather than a HTTP-based SMB/CIFS. There's certainly applications fo= r the latter but it wasn't what I had in mind. Sam On 8 April 2010 19:39, Mark Carlson wrote: > Exactly. http://snia.org/cloud - CDMI is essentially done. > > -- mark > > On 4/8/10 11:34 AM, Masum Hasan (masum) wrote: > > Re. your comment on pursuing =93storage API like Amazon's S3=94 in IETF.= Why > that is needed when storage networking SDO SNIA is working on one (SNIA > CDMI)? > > > > > > --Masum > > > > 408 219 9713 Cell 408 853 5926 Desk > > http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/ > > http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet) > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > *On Behalf Of *Sam Johnston > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:19 AM > *To:* Gene Golovinsky > *Cc:* clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > Gene, > > > > You're definitely not alone in thinking this would be a worthy topic for > IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco's Chris Hoff) and author of = the > existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd love to see IETF people starting to wo= rk > with the group. We have weekly calls on Monday at 10am PST/1pm EST and > discuss in the cloudaudit Google Group[1]. The goal for v1 is to create a > trivial HTTP-based interface that can be implemented by uploading files > rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's OCCI working group has produced a > number of Internet-Drafts that could be picked up by IETF. > > > > Another area that I think would be very interesting for IETF to take on > (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, HTTP-based storage A= PI > like Amazon's S3 - only without the potential patent problems[2]. I belie= ve > that HTTP already takes care of many/most of the issues (e.g. > authentication, encryption, ranged GETs, etc.) and IETF has proven > experience in the area (WebDAV). > > > > Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how to remotely instru= ct > servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, moving a virtual > machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a mobile devic= e > on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a good sta= rt > (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed and possib= ly > promoted for more generic application. > > > > Considering that most of these APIs (at least the ones I'm involved in) a= re > trying to be as close as possible to the "uniform interface" of HTTP, > I believe there's benefit to be had in reviewing the relevant RFCs with > these new applications in mind. For example, while HTTP has a perfectly g= ood > metadata channel (headers) and thus obviates the need for envelope format= s > (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability to link, annotate and categorise > resources. It also has some internationalisation problems (e.g. ASCII) an= d > inefficient serialisation (e.g. SPDY). HTTP 1.1 has served us well for ma= ny > years but perhaps it's time to start thinking about what HTTP 2.0 might l= ook > like? > > > > Sam > > > > -- > *Sam Johnston* > > *Technical Program Manager* > > Site Reliability Engineering > > Google Switzerland GmbH > > > > 1. http://groups.google.com/group/cloudaudit > 2. http://tinyurl.com/s3patent > > 3. http://code.google.com/p/cush/ > > > > On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard. > > The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF: > > > http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid97= _gci1508024,00.html > > > > Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to ta= ke > on. > > When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going to be a l= ot > of work to make it a standard. > > > > At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Clo= ud > Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group. > > Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and how critic= al > Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2. > > > > --Gene > > > > > > > > *From:* Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Cc:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky > > > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > Look at > > > > http://www.cloudaudit.org/ > > > > For cloud audit. It is difficult to specify audit when the services are = so > different today. > > > > The industry has not settled on a small set of services definitions of wh= at > "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, PaaS? When the services offered= in > that space are so different? IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd= of > cloud. > > > > So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is somethin= g > that IETF can specify? OK that was rhetorical. My point is, the real > opportunity is to look for elements that are mature enough to have some > problem to be solved defined. Then ensure you are not duplicating what > other SDO or Forum are already working on. > > > > Mark Webb > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --00032555404a52b40c0483c00293 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,

I should perhaps have been more specific. I'm = well aware of CDMI but am looking for something simple and lightweight, som= ewhere between HTTP and WebDAV rather than a HTTP-based SMB/CIFS. There'= ;s certainly applications for the latter but it wasn't what I had in mi= nd.

Sam

On 8 April 2010 19:39,= Mark Carlson <mark.carlson@oracle.com> wrote:
=20
Exactly. http://snia.org/cloud - CDMI is essentially done.

-- mark

On 4/8/10 11:34 AM, Masum Hasan (masum) wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Re. your comment on pursuing =93storage API like Amazon's S3=94 in IETF. Why that is needed when storage networking SDO SNIA is working on one (SNIA CDMI)?

=A0

=A0

--Masum

=A0

408 219 9713=A0=A0 Cell=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 408 853 5926=A0=A0 Desk

http://home.comcast.net/~masumz= /

http://wwwin-people.cisco.c= om/masum/ (Intranet)

=A0

=A0

From:= clouds-bounces= @ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sam Johnston
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:19 AM
To: Gene Golovinsky
Cc: clouds@ie= tf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

=A0

Gene,

=A0

You're definitely not alone in thinking this would be a worthy topic for IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco's Chris Hoff) and author of the existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd love to see IETF people starting to work with the group. We have weekly calls on Monday at 10am PST/1pm EST and discuss in the cloudaudit Google Group[1]. The goal for v1 is to create a trivial HTTP-based interface that can be implemented by uploading files rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's OCCI working group has produced a number of Internet-Drafts that could be picked up by IETF.

=A0

Another area that I think would be very interesting for IETF to take on (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, HTTP-based storage API like Amazon's S3 - only without the potential patent problems[2]. I believe that HTTP already takes care of many/most of the issues (e.g. authentication, encryption, ranged GETs, etc.) and IETF has proven experience in the area (WebDAV).

=A0

Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how to remotely instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, moving a virtual machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a mobile device on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a good start (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed and possibly promoted for more generic application.

=A0

Considering that most of these APIs (at least the ones I'm involved in) are trying to be as close as possible to the "uniform interface" of HTTP, I=A0believe there's benefit to be had in revie= wing the relevant RFCs with these new applications in mind. For example, while HTTP has a perfectly good metadata channel (headers) and thus obviates the need for envelope formats (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability to link, annotate and categorise resources. It also has some internationalisation problems (e.g. ASCII) and inefficient serialisation (e.g. SPDY). HTTP 1.1 has served us well for many years but perhaps it's time to start thinking about what HTTP 2.0 might look like?

=A0

Sam

=A0

--=A0
Sam Johnston

Technical Program Manager

Site Reliability Engineering

Google Switzerland GmbH

=A0

3.=A0http://code.google.com/p/cus= h/

=A0

On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky <gene@alertlogic.com&g= t; wrote:

http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard.

The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF:

http://searchsecuritych= annel.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid97_gci1508024,00.html

=A0

Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to take on.

When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going to be a lot of work to make it a standard.

=A0

At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Cloud Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group.

Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and how critical Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2.

=A0

--Gene

=A0

=A0

=A0

From: Mark Webb [mailto:mweb= b@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM
To: clouds@ie= tf.org
Cc: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky


Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

=A0

Look at=A0

=A0

=A0

For cloud audit. =A0It is difficult to specify audit when the services are so different today. =A0

=A0

The industry has not settled on a small set of services definitions of what "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, PaaS= ? =A0When the services offered in that space are so different? =A0IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of cloud. =A0

=A0

So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is something that IETF can specify? =A0OK that was rhetorical. =A0My point is, the real opportunity is to look for elements that are mature enough to have some problem to be solved defined. =A0Then ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO or Forum are already working on.

=A0

Mark Webb


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list

clou=
ds@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds


--00032555404a52b40c0483c00293-- From mark.carlson@oracle.com Thu Apr 8 14:12:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4969E3A694D for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:12:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2QFHE7j-6MBV for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com (acsinet12.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555E13A67A4 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o38LCdjk001723 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:12:41 GMT Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o38LCcTi002279; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:12:38 GMT Received: from abhmt003.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 159327891270761081; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:11:21 -0700 Received: from Macintosh-335.local (/129.150.48.127) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:11:21 -0700 Message-ID: <4BBE4678.6040202@oracle.com> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 15:11:20 -0600 From: Mark Carlson Organization: Oracle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Johnston References: <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <9DF482BD-96B8-4E85-941C-190134DBB2CC@cisco.com> <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5C0AB@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> <4BBE14D5.3030307@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000208070807000006050201" X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4BBE46C7.0119:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:12:57 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000208070807000006050201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CDMI objects can be accessed through plain old HTTP at their URL (subject to standard access controls) and can be POSTed without having to code to CDMI semantics. No "mount" is needed. CDMI is shrink to fit, so if this is all you offer, you can just put up a cloud that does these functions. -- mark On 4/8/10 3:03 PM, Sam Johnston wrote: > Mark, > > I should perhaps have been more specific. I'm well aware of CDMI but > am looking for something simple and lightweight, somewhere between > HTTP and WebDAV rather than a HTTP-based SMB/CIFS. There's certainly > applications for the latter but it wasn't what I had in mind. > > Sam > > On 8 April 2010 19:39, Mark Carlson > wrote: > > Exactly. http://snia.org/cloud - CDMI is essentially done. > > -- mark > > On 4/8/10 11:34 AM, Masum Hasan (masum) wrote: >> >> Re. your comment on pursuing "storage API like Amazon's S3" in >> IETF. Why that is needed when storage networking SDO SNIA is >> working on one (SNIA CDMI)? >> >> --Masum >> >> 408 219 9713 Cell 408 853 5926 Desk >> >> http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/ >> >> http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet) >> >> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Sam Johnston >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:19 AM >> *To:* Gene Golovinsky >> *Cc:* clouds@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big >> >> Gene, >> >> You're definitely not alone in thinking this would be a worthy >> topic for IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco's Chris >> Hoff) and author of the existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd love >> to see IETF people starting to work with the group. We have >> weekly calls on Monday at 10am PST/1pm EST and discuss in the >> cloudaudit Google Group[1]. The goal for v1 is to create a >> trivial HTTP-based interface that can be implemented by uploading >> files rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's OCCI working group has >> produced a number of Internet-Drafts that could be picked up by IETF. >> >> Another area that I think would be very interesting for IETF to >> take on (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, >> HTTP-based storage API like Amazon's S3 - only without the >> potential patent problems[2]. I believe that HTTP already takes >> care of many/most of the issues (e.g. authentication, encryption, >> ranged GETs, etc.) and IETF has proven experience in the area >> (WebDAV). >> >> Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how to >> remotely instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for >> example, moving a virtual machine, database, etc. from one >> location to another using a mobile device on a 3G connection. I >> believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a good start (this is >> what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed and >> possibly promoted for more generic application. >> >> Considering that most of these APIs (at least the ones I'm >> involved in) are trying to be as close as possible to the >> "uniform interface" of HTTP, I believe there's benefit to be had >> in reviewing the relevant RFCs with these new applications in >> mind. For example, while HTTP has a perfectly good metadata >> channel (headers) and thus obviates the need for envelope formats >> (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability to link, annotate and >> categorise resources. It also has some internationalisation >> problems (e.g. ASCII) and inefficient serialisation (e.g. SPDY). >> HTTP 1.1 has served us well for many years but perhaps it's time >> to start thinking about what HTTP 2.0 might look like? >> >> Sam >> >> -- >> *Sam Johnston* >> >> /Technical Program Manager/ >> >> Site Reliability Engineering >> >> Google Switzerland GmbH >> >> 1. http://groups.google.com/group/cloudaudit >> 2. http://tinyurl.com/s3patent >> >> 3. http://code.google.com/p/cush/ >> >> On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky > > wrote: >> >> http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard. >> >> The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF: >> >> http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid97_gci1508024,00.html >> >> Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for >> IETF to take on. >> >> When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going >> to be a lot of work to make it a standard. >> >> At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting >> for Cloud Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group. >> >> Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and >> how critical Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2. >> >> --Gene >> >> *From:* Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com ] >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM >> *To:* clouds@ietf.org >> *Cc:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org >> ; Gene Golovinsky >> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big >> >> Look at >> >> http://www.cloudaudit.org/ >> >> For cloud audit. It is difficult to specify audit when the >> services are so different today. >> >> The industry has not settled on a small set of services >> definitions of what "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, >> PaaS? When the services offered in that space are so different? >> IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of cloud. >> >> So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is >> something that IETF can specify? OK that was rhetorical. My >> point is, the real opportunity is to look for elements that are >> mature enough to have some problem to be solved defined. Then >> ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO or Forum are >> already working on. >> >> Mark Webb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clouds mailing list >> clouds@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --------------000208070807000006050201 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CDMI objects can be accessed through plain old HTTP at their URL
(subject to standard access controls) and can be POSTed without having
to code to CDMI semantics. No "mount" is needed. CDMI is shrink to
fit, so if this is all you offer, you can just put up a cloud that does these
functions.

-- mark

On 4/8/10 3:03 PM, Sam Johnston wrote:
Mark,

I should perhaps have been more specific. I'm well aware of CDMI but am looking for something simple and lightweight, somewhere between HTTP and WebDAV rather than a HTTP-based SMB/CIFS. There's certainly applications for the latter but it wasn't what I had in mind.

Sam

On 8 April 2010 19:39, Mark Carlson <mark.carlson@oracle.com> wrote:
Exactly. http://snia.org/cloud - CDMI is essentially done.

-- mark

On 4/8/10 11:34 AM, Masum Hasan (masum) wrote:

Re. your comment on pursuing “storage API like Amazon's S3” in IETF. Why that is needed when storage networking SDO SNIA is working on one (SNIA CDMI)?

 

 

--Masum

 

408 219 9713   Cell                  408 853 5926   Desk

http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/

http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet)

 

 

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sam Johnston
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:19 AM
To: Gene Golovinsky
Cc: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

Gene,

 

You're definitely not alone in thinking this would be a worthy topic for IETF and as co-conspirator (along with Cisco's Chris Hoff) and author of the existing CloudAudit draft spec I'd love to see IETF people starting to work with the group. We have weekly calls on Monday at 10am PST/1pm EST and discuss in the cloudaudit Google Group[1]. The goal for v1 is to create a trivial HTTP-based interface that can be implemented by uploading files rather than coding. Similarly, OGF's OCCI working group has produced a number of Internet-Drafts that could be picked up by IETF.

 

Another area that I think would be very interesting for IETF to take on (moreso than virtualisation management) is a simple, HTTP-based storage API like Amazon's S3 - only without the potential patent problems[2]. I believe that HTTP already takes care of many/most of the issues (e.g. authentication, encryption, ranged GETs, etc.) and IETF has proven experience in the area (WebDAV).

 

Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how to remotely instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, moving a virtual machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a mobile device on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a good start (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed and possibly promoted for more generic application.

 

Considering that most of these APIs (at least the ones I'm involved in) are trying to be as close as possible to the "uniform interface" of HTTP, I believe there's benefit to be had in reviewing the relevant RFCs with these new applications in mind. For example, while HTTP has a perfectly good metadata channel (headers) and thus obviates the need for envelope formats (Atom, SOAP, etc), it lacks the ability to link, annotate and categorise resources. It also has some internationalisation problems (e.g. ASCII) and inefficient serialisation (e.g. SPDY). HTTP 1.1 has served us well for many years but perhaps it's time to start thinking about what HTTP 2.0 might look like?

 

Sam

 

-- 
Sam Johnston

Technical Program Manager

Site Reliability Engineering

Google Switzerland GmbH

 

3. http://code.google.com/p/cush/

 

On 8 April 2010 15:40, Gene Golovinsky <gene@alertlogic.com> wrote:

http://www.cloudaudit.org/ is an initiative, not a standard.

The plan for the group is to submit proposal to the IETF:

http://searchsecuritychannel.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid97_gci1508024,00.html

 

Which means I am not alone thinking this is a worthy topic for IETF to take on.

When and if the proposal will be submitted there is still going to be a lot of work to make it a standard.

 

At least two approaches are possible. 1. Do nothing while waiting for Cloud Audit proposal. 2. Start working with the group.

Considering how fast Cloud technologies have been evolving and how critical Security is for the adoption of it I am for #2.

 

--Gene

 

 

 

From: Mark Webb [mailto:mwebb@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:23 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Cc: Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Gene Golovinsky


Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

Look at 

 

 

For cloud audit.  It is difficult to specify audit when the services are so different today.  

 

The industry has not settled on a small set of services definitions of what "cloud" is. So, how does one audit SaaS, PaaS?  When the services offered in that space are so different?  IaaS is the most mature and perhaps the lcd of cloud.  

 

So, who here thinks that "IT functions as a service" or ITaaS is something that IETF can specify?  OK that was rhetorical.  My point is, the real opportunity is to look for elements that are mature enough to have some problem to be solved defined.  Then ensure you are not duplicating what other SDO or Forum are already working on.

 

Mark Webb


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list

clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds


--------------000208070807000006050201-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Apr 8 19:40:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49163A68E9 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 19:40:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.803, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_SUBJECT=1.762, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sGKr7sZN8t04 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 19:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE75D3A68A7 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 19:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.134]) by 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multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon318057003331_=====" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon318057003331_===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U2FtIGFuZCBhbGwsDQogICBUaGUgdG9waWMgb2Ygc3RhbmRhcmRpemluZyAodmlydHVhbCApcmVz b3VyY2UgbWlncmF0aW9uIGVzcC4gaW4gZGlmZmVyZW50IGNsb3VkcyB5b3UgbWVudGlvbmVkIHNv dW5kcyBpbnRlcmVzdGluZy5EbyB5b3UgaGF2ZSBtb3JlIGRldGFpbHMgdG8gc2hhcmU/VGhhbmtz Lg0KICAgIEFub3RoZXIgcG9pbnQ6SXMgdGhlcmUgc3RhbmRhcmQgcHJvdG9jb2xzIGluIGludGVy Y29ubmVjdGluZyBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcmVnaW9ucyBvZiBjbHVzdGVycz9JIHRoaW5rcyBpZiB0aGVy ZSBhcmUgcm9vbSB0byBleHBvbG9yZSxpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBhIHN1aXRhYmxlIHRvcGljIGluIElF VEYuDQoNCkJSDQpZdW5mZWkNCg0KDQoNCg0Kemhhbmd5dW5mZWkNCjIwMTAtMDQtMDkNCg0KDQoN CreivP7Iy6O6IFNhbSBKb2huc3Rvbg0Kt6LLzcqxvOSjuiAyMDEwLTA0LTA4IDIzOjM3OjEzDQrK 1bz+yMujuiBHZW5lIEdvbG92aW5za3kNCrOty82juiBjbG91ZHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3zOKjuiBS ZTogW2Nsb3Vkc10gU2NvcGUgb2YgdGhlIENsb3VkIGlzIHRvbyBiaWcNCg0KR2VuZSwNCg0KDQpZ 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aW4iPk1hcmsgDQogIFdlYmI8L1A+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9CTE9D S1FVT1RFPjwvRElWPjwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon318057003331_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Apr 8 23:10:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 200B73A68D6 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:10:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.069 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.069 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.546, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_SUBJECT=1.762, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tghm3q-NFq7A for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D2E3A67EC for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.4.61]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010040914274428-11814 ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:27:44 +0800 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:09:58 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Sam Johnston" , "Mark Carlson" References: <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><010401cad673$ 9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org><00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><9 DF482BD-96B8-4E85-941C-190134DBB2CC@cisco.com><0C9A0528F0979949A5 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 14:27:44, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 14:10:05, Serialize complete at 2010-04-09 14:10:05 Message-ID: Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: [clouds] (no subject) X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF 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L1BSRT48L0JMT0NLUVVPVEU+PC9ESVY+PEJSPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fPEJSPmNsb3VkcyANCiAgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0PEJSPjxBIGhyZWY9 Im1haWx0bzpjbG91ZHNAaWV0Zi5vcmciPmNsb3Vkc0BpZXRmLm9yZzwvQT48QlI+PEEgDQogIGhy ZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vY2xvdWRzIiANCiAgdGFy Z2V0PV9ibGFuaz5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2Nsb3Vkczwv QT48QlI+PEJSPjwvQkxPQ0tRVU9URT48L0RJVj48QlI+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9GT05UPjwvRElW PjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= --=====003_Dragon802266145077_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Apr 8 23:21:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868A73A67B3 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:21:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.267, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_81=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y9CXyW8Ijo9A for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B66C3A67EC for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.4.61]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010040914391410-12164 ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:39:14 +0800 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:21:28 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "clouds@ietf.org" , "sjj" Message-ID: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 14:39:14, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 14:21:31, Serialize complete at 2010-04-09 14:21:31 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon803740436532_=====" Subject: [clouds] scope of the cloud X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 06:21:38 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon803740436532_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Hi all. Some kindly told me that my email is not displayed corretly.So send again. ------------------------------------------------- Sam and all, The topic of standardizing (virtual )resource migration esp. in different clouds you mentioned sounds interesting.Do you have more details to share?Thanks. Another point:Is there standard protocols in interconnecting different regions of clusters?I thinks if there are room to expolore,it would be a suitable topic in IETF. BR Yunfei zhangyunfei 2010-04-09 --=====003_Dragon803740436532_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Hi all.
    Some kindly told me that my email is not displayed corretly.So send again.
-------------------------------------------------
 
Sam and all,
   The topic of standardizing (virtual )resource migration esp. in different clouds you mentioned sounds interesting.Do you have more details to share?Thanks.
    Another point:Is there standard protocols in interconnecting different regions of clusters?I thinks if there are room to expolore,it would be a suitable topic in IETF.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
 
zhangyunfei
2010-04-09
 --=====003_Dragon803740436532_=====-- From meng.yu@zte.com.cn Fri Apr 9 00:04:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED04E3A67EB; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 00:04:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -88.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-88.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_81=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S3qMpPcDF27I; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 00:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx5.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E99A3A67E3; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 00:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.100] by mx5.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 368872668162798; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:02:08 +0800 (CST) Received: from [192.168.168.1] by [192.168.168.16] with StormMail ESMTP id 65934.5147255223; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:01:39 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse2.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id o3970VDj016673; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:00:31 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from meng.yu@zte.com.cn) In-Reply-To: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> To: "zhangyunfei" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 Message-ID: From: meng.yu@zte.com.cn Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:00:18 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 6.5.4|March 27, 2005) at 2010-04-09 15:00:22, Serialize complete at 2010-04-09 15:00:22 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00267C6648257700_=" X-MAIL: mse2.zte.com.cn o3970VDj016673 Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" , clouds-bounces@ietf.org Subject: [clouds] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIHNjb3BlIG9mIHRoZSBjbG91ZA==?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 07:04:54 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00267C6648257700_= Content-Type: text/plain; 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Fri, 9 Apr 2010 00:45:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_81=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gRMzokmwb0iK for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 00:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f189.google.com (mail-iw0-f189.google.com [209.85.223.189]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678723A69CB for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 00:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn27 with SMTP id 27so2174900iwn.5 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 00:45:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=PiWFTRPAvRVFy9ee+K8k/1NCugSB0ING+tCieOhQUAw=; b=Hw5yaJTh9jtYQASfvFpgBDBQ489gCUSe6bXkBzsua3cS4nydfcLx4Bq9O5crUZDzst OxwYfXcZXSRnHBomvSAQ2CGdTVR1COLHy+mdrs+94WSIZtr0KidF/vn8seFKqL9I3Qd8 CiNMXsiO69fjO3sHXgFdi6GNyCf2BjdXeEWts= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Y2QOyZWqtxrc725xtqol6wVlnuYm0o+khBSOi0PbX5ZNy8H3Uc+VVvie0efCYzJZ47 uhvgLfOPdF7l/DW5s30J3et2Izg8BGVRYcLqHVksHgctEbHctELTyXpvEVQ3g80os24V srz7z3zzxoWxFJpWpjRMXgvOXk2tGOeCU8CjU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.199.204 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 00:45:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:45:40 +0800 Received: by 10.231.169.145 with SMTP id z17mr564131iby.83.1270799140690; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 00:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Wang Xu To: "meng.yu" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBzY29wZSBvZiB0aGUgY2xvdWQ=?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 07:45:51 -0000 Yunfei and Meng, Do you have any practical use case of live migration of virtual machine? I do not find any case of heavy utilization of=C2=A0VM migration. And some tests indicated that the migration in product environment is not mature enough yet. 2010/4/9 > > Not only (virtual )resource/(or tasks) migration esp. in different clouds= , but migration from different servers in one cloud, I think it could be re= sonable. > > Further, I am thinking could them be harmonized together for the protocol= aspect? > > > > "zhangyunfei" > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: =C2=A0clouds-bounces@ietf.org > > 2010-04-09 14:21 > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA > "clouds@ietf.org" , "sjj" > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81 > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98 > [clouds] scope of the cloud > > > > > Hi all. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some kindly told me that my email is not displayed corretly= .So send again. > ------------------------------------------------- > > Sam and all, > =C2=A0 =C2=A0The topic of standardizing (virtual )resource migration esp.= in different clouds you mentioned sounds interesting.Do you have more deta= ils to share?Thanks. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Another point:Is there standard protocols in interconnectin= g different regions of clusters?I thinks if there are room to expolore,it w= ould be a suitable topic in IETF. > > BR > Yunfei > > > ________________________________ > zhangyunfei > 2010-04-09_______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > -- Wang Xu From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Fri Apr 9 01:08:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07C073A69BE for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:08:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -90.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-5.061, BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_81=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vhz5f+rgkavG for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C323A6876 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.4.61]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010040916251962-15703 ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:25:19 +0800 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:07:32 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Wang Xu" , "meng.yu" References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 16:25:19, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 16:07:56, Serialize complete at 2010-04-09 16:07:56 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon538650113278_=====" Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] =?gb2312?b?X1+08Li0Ol9zY29wZV9vZl90aGVfY2xvdWQ=?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:08:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon538650113278_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" 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Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84043A69DE for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:18:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kiCJ+WCVdt-w for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2CE3A69B7 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAB5/vkurR7H+/2dsb2JhbACPbYtOcZ9MmSyCXBWCGAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,176,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="511947235" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Apr 2010 08:18:16 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o398IAxB010470; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:18:16 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-110.cisco.com ([144.254.74.85]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:18:15 +0200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAD7BD.339057D4" Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:18:14 +0200 Message-ID: <317616CE96204D49B5A1811098BA895001A24F22@XMB-AMS-110.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Thread-Index: AcrXNY56NlmO6QiMSF+9s8v3ZgFwIAAhi/d1 References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im><008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org><00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com><008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> From: "Monique Morrow (mmorrow)" To: "Bhumip Khasnabish" , "Linda Dunbar" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Apr 2010 08:18:15.0100 (UTC) FILETIME=[33C7BFC0:01CAD7BD] Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:18:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD7BD.339057D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bhumip, Having attended-participated at the BoF and following this thread, some = of my suggestions moving forward: 1. Clear problem statement; and specifically what corresponding protocol = work should the IETF develop and or reuse; 2. To [1] goes an SDO/Forum gap analysis [if not done already] as to = assure there is unnecessary replication of work and/or potential of = SDO/forum clash output =3D scope 3. Identification of use case examples; 4. Finally, is there any potential for interlock with work being kicked = off at the IRTF Virtual Networks Research Group WG? Best regards Monique -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Bhumip Khasnabish Sent: Thu 4/8/2010 9:07 AM To: Linda Dunbar Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. = Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in = the same group please. Thanks a lot. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar = wrote: > I am looking at a very different angle of the "Cloud". Rather than = the > "IT functions as a service", I am looking at Virtual Network Services = and > Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers. > > Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a > separate discussion group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM > *To:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they = all > basically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions as > service. > > As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be > authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, = data > protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. > > > > Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal = with > those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with = deployment > recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really = covered. > > > > > Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people = that > care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither = ability, > nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) = is not > good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared = and > dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently = available. > > > > > --Gene > > > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM > *To:* carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally > different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. > > > > Linda > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM > *To:* 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid > distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is = what was > discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose = was to > get some informal discussion going first and see what people are = thinking. > There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a = gap > analysis. > > > Carl > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM > *To:* 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for = IETF to > have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to > different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that > involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic > categories: > > p Infrastructure-as-a-Service = (IaaS > ), > > p Platform-as-a-Service = (PaaS)and > > p Software-as-a-Service = (SaaS > ) > > > > There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest > separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for = one of > them to become a working group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Webb > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases > > > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of = people in > attendance. > > > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort = that > overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does = not > need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. > > > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is = the > _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > > > Mark Webb > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could = not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous > that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD7BD.339057D4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

Bhumip,

 Having attended-participated at the BoF and following this thread, = some of my suggestions moving forward:

1. Clear problem statement; and specifically what corresponding protocol = work should the IETF develop and or reuse;

2. To [1] goes an SDO/Forum gap analysis [if not done already] as to = assure there is unnecessary replication of work and/or potential of = SDO/forum clash  output =3D scope

3. Identification of use case examples;

4. Finally,  is there any potential for interlock with work being = kicked off at the IRTF Virtual Networks Research Group WG?

Best regards

Monique

-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Bhumip Khasnabish
Sent: Thu 4/8/2010 9:07 AM
To: Linda Dunbar
Cc: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of
cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on.  = Cloud-based
storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service,  cloud-based = network
service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant
communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in = the
same group please. Thanks a lot.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar <ldunbar@huawei.com> = wrote:

>  I am looking at a very different angle of the = "Cloud". Rather than the
> "IT functions as a service", I am looking at Virtual = Network Services and
> Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers.
>
> Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form = a
> separate discussion group.
>
>
>
> Linda Dunbar
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM
> *To:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; = clouds@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories = they all
> basically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions = as
> service.
>
> As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to = be
> authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities = audited, data
> protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on.
>
>
>
> Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal = with
> those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with = deployment
> recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really = covered.
>
>
>
>
> Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that = people that
> care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither = ability,
> nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging = (syslog) is not
> good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared = and
> dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently = available.
>
>
>
>
> --Gene
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM
> *To:* carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about = totally
> different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving = forward.
>
>
>
> Linda
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM
> *To:* 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to = avoid
> distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and = that is what was
> discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the = purpose was to
> get some informal discussion going first and see what people are = thinking.
> There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct = a gap
> analysis.
>
>
> Carl
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM
> *To:* 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for = IETF to
> have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means = different things to
> different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything = that
> involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three = basic
> categories:
>
> p     Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS<http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDef= inition/0,290660,sid201_gci1358983,00.html>
> ),
>
> p     Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS)<http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinitio= n/0,,sid201_gci1332892,00.html>and
>
> p     Software-as-a-Service (SaaS<http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDef= inition/0,290660,sid201_gci1170781,00.html>
> )
>
>
>
> There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I = suggest
> separating them and further studying if there are enough contents = for one of
> them to become a working group.
>
>
>
> Linda Dunbar
>
>
>    ------------------------------
>
> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Webb
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
> *To:* clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases
>
>
>
> I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of = people in
> attendance.
>
>
>
> An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new = effort that
> overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The = industry does not
> need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing = IMO.
>
>
>
> Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap = analysis is the
> _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time.
>
>
>
> Mark Webb
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:
>
>
>
> Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and = attention.
> How can I help to move the discussion forward?
>
> Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
> I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF = is
> traditionally focusing its efforts.
>
> --Gene
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org<clouds-bounces@ietf.org>]
> On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
> To: clouds@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases
>
> On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:
>
> >    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF = meeting, but could not
> >       really figure out if the = WG was chartered.
>
> It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous
> that folks are a long way from forming a WG.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> clouds mailing list
> clouds@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/clouds
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> clouds mailing list
> clouds@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/clouds
>
>


--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content
of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the = communiqu=E9.

------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD7BD.339057D4-- From zongning@huawei.com Fri Apr 9 01:44:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2FD3A6359 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:44:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0iPKhJw6y2rC for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC6E3A69C1 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L0L00FQGPKVCC@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:43:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L0L00FK1PKUBV@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:43:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.138.84.86]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L0L00I8VPKTVO@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for clouds@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:43:42 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:43:41 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: <317616CE96204D49B5A1811098BA895001A24F22@XMB-AMS-110.cisco.com> To: "'Monique Morrow (mmorrow)'" , 'Bhumip Khasnabish' , 'Linda Dunbar' Message-id: <001f01cad7c0$c1ccfd50$56548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_rbCFw928BGcy7uJXLYmCCA)" Thread-index: AcrXNY56NlmO6QiMSF+9s8v3ZgFwIAAhi/d1AAERR8A= Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:44:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_rbCFw928BGcy7uJXLYmCCA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I Agree with Monique. =20 So far, I couldn=92t see any concrete problems need to be solved and why = IETF is the right place for such study. IMO, we could not move forward = without getting agreement on these basic issues. Clear Problem Statement and Gap Analysis on both SDO-wide and = protocol-wide are definitely required at this stage. =20 My 2 cents. =20 BR, Ning Zong =20 _____ =20 From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Monique Morrow (mmorrow) Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 4:18 PM To: Bhumip Khasnabish; Linda Dunbar Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =20 Bhumip, Having attended-participated at the BoF and following this thread, some = of my suggestions moving forward: 1. Clear problem statement; and specifically what corresponding protocol work should the IETF develop and or reuse; 2. To [1] goes an SDO/Forum gap analysis [if not done already] as to = assure there is unnecessary replication of work and/or potential of SDO/forum = clash output =3D scope 3. Identification of use case examples; 4. Finally, is there any potential for interlock with work being kicked = off at the IRTF Virtual Networks Research Group WG? Best regards Monique -----Original Message----- From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Bhumip Khasnabish Sent: Thu 4/8/2010 9:07 AM To: Linda Dunbar Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. = Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in = the same group please. Thanks a lot. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar = wrote: > I am looking at a very different angle of the "Cloud". Rather than = the > "IT functions as a service", I am looking at Virtual Network Services = and > Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers. > > Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a > separate discussion group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM > *To:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they = all > basically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions as > service. > > As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be > authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, data > protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. > > > > Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal = with > those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with = deployment > recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really covered. > > > > > Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people = that > care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability, > nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) = is not > good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared = and > dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available. > > > > > --Gene > > > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM > *To:* carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally > different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. > > > > Linda > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM > *To:* 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid > distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is = what was > discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose = was to > get some informal discussion going first and see what people are = thinking. > There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a = gap > analysis. > > > Carl > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM > *To:* 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for = IETF to > have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to > different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that > involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic > categories: > > p Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS > ), > > p Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS)and > > p Software-as-a-Service (SaaS > ) > > > > There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest > separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for = one of > them to become a working group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Webb > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases > > > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of = people in > attendance. > > > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that > overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does = not > need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. > > > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is = the > _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > > > Mark Webb > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could = not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous > that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > -- Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --Boundary_(ID_rbCFw928BGcy7uJXLYmCCA) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

I Agree with = Monique.

 <= /span>

So far, I = couldn=92t see any concrete problems need to be solved and why IETF is the right place for = such study. IMO, we could not move forward without getting agreement on these basic = issues.

Clear Problem = Statement and Gap Analysis on both SDO-wide and protocol-wide are definitely = required at this stage.

 <= /span>

My 2 = cents.

 <= /span>

BR,

Ning = Zong

 <= /span>

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Monique Morrow = (mmorrow)
Sent: Friday, April 09, = 2010 4:18 PM
To: Bhumip Khasnabish; = Linda Dunbar
Cc: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] = Scope of the Cloud is too big

 

Bhumip,

 Having attended-participated at the BoF and following this thread, = some of my suggestions moving forward:

1. Clear problem statement; and specifically what corresponding protocol = work should the IETF develop and or reuse;

2. To [1] goes an SDO/Forum gap analysis [if not done already] as to = assure there is unnecessary replication of work and/or potential of SDO/forum clash  output =3D scope

3. Identification of use case examples;

4. Finally,  is there any potential for interlock with work being = kicked off at the IRTF Virtual Networks Research Group WG?

Best regards

Monique

-----Original Message-----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Bhumip Khasnabish
Sent: Thu 4/8/2010 9:07 AM
To: Linda Dunbar
Cc: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of
cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on.  = Cloud-based
storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service,  cloud-based = network
service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant
communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in = the
same group please. Thanks a lot.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar <ldunbar@huawei.com> = wrote:

>  I am looking at a very different angle of the = "Cloud". Rather than the
> "IT functions as a service", I am looking at Virtual = Network Services and
> Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers.
>
> Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form = a
> separate discussion group.
>
>
>
> Linda Dunbar
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM
> *To:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories = they all
> basically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions = as
> service.
>
> As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to = be
> authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities = audited, data
> protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on.
>
>
>
> Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with
> those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with = deployment
> recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really covered.
>
>
>
>
> Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that = people that
> care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability,
> nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging = (syslog) is not
> good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared = and
> dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently available.
>
>
>
>
> --Gene
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM
> *To:* carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about = totally
> different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving = forward.
>
>
>
> Linda
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM
> *To:* 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to = avoid
> distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and = that is what was
> discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I can tell the = purpose was to
> get some informal discussion going first and see what people are = thinking.
> There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct = a gap
> analysis.
>
>
> Carl
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM
> *To:* 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for = IETF to
> have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means = different things to
> different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything = that
> involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three = basic
> categories:
>
> p     Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS<http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDef= inition/0,290660,sid201_gci1358983,00.html>
> ),
>
> p     Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS)<http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinitio= n/0,,sid201_gci1332892,00.html>and
>
> p     Software-as-a-Service (SaaS<http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDef= inition/0,290660,sid201_gci1170781,00.html>
> )
>
>
>
> There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I = suggest
> separating them and further studying if there are enough contents = for one of
> them to become a working group.
>
>
>
> Linda Dunbar
>
>
>    ------------------------------
>
> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Webb
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
> *To:* clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases
>
>
>
> I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of = people in
> attendance.
>
>
>
> An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new = effort that
> overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The = industry does not
> need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing = IMO.
>
>
>
> Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap = analysis is the
> _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time.
>
>
>
> Mark Webb
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:
>
>
>
> Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and = attention.
> How can I help to move the discussion forward?
>
> Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
> I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF = is
> traditionally focusing its efforts.
>
> --Gene
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org<clouds-bounces@ietf.org>]
> On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
> To: clouds@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases
>
> On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:
>
> >    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not
> >       really figure out if the = WG was chartered.
>
> It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so = nebulous
> that folks are a long way from forming a WG.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> clouds mailing list
> clouds@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/clouds
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> clouds mailing list
> clouds@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/clouds
>
>


--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the = content
of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the = communiqu=E9.

--Boundary_(ID_rbCFw928BGcy7uJXLYmCCA)-- From sjj@google.com Fri Apr 9 01:46:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F4D3A69C2 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:46:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.784 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.784 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.592, BAYES_05=-1.11, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_81=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QugZd52gXEti for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [216.239.44.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF293A6A03 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wpaz17.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz17.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.81]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o398kNWo024731 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:46:23 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1270802784; bh=FHeD+l0jmdy63aJfUjAS4QW1qhU=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=DPHEr/BhKomwZ5x84F6wUTDoHpXFXom5AHU6+PtokgzfTGKrpwIHaXDh9CqYTExej Vor3aYskPwunfKGIv1OTA== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=T5eFt9Sf4k+ZlflVOliSPFebgPyJc/LvWMdhE3YGk46/zKByv3+nzUNjn/cAY7jZ+ /oxIx+0YU6NVct9XOWvww== Received: from bwz6 (bwz6.prod.google.com [10.188.26.6]) by wpaz17.hot.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o398kMPg017520 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:46:22 -0700 Received: by bwz6 with SMTP id 6so2675782bwz.13 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 01:46:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.150.67 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:46:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:46:21 +0200 Received: by 10.204.137.81 with SMTP id v17mr1447030bkt.93.1270802781562; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 01:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Sam Johnston To: zhangyunfei Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151747c0f05fedec0483c9d4a9 X-System-Of-Record: true Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] =?gb2312?b?X1+08Li0Ol9zY29wZV9vZl90aGVfY2xvdWQ=?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:46:48 -0000 --00151747c0f05fedec0483c9d4a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yunfei/Wang/Meng, My interest was not limited to virtual machines (which require some amount of choreography on either side of the actual move) but rather files, databases, code, documents - basically anything that you might want to move from A to B (where you are not necessarily A or B). Another area of potential interest is a lightweight "profile" of HTTP for constrained devices, whereby one does not have to implement a full-blown HTTP client & server pair simply to query an electricity meter. Some of these issues were already discussed earlier this week[1]. The same could be said for application of [vanilla] HTTP to files, databases, etc. (e.g. the relevant subset of CDMI). We're also missing a way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, platforms, etc.) and workloads (e.g. applications, virtual machines). CloudAudit provides a technical solution to the former (but it's out of scope) and Cisco's James Urquhart has been working on a descriptor format for the latter[2]. Both of these areas seem appropriate for IETF involvement, and indeed CloudAudit could be worked into a generic catalog service (e.g. the legal name of the provider, its location, logo, services, SLAs, etc.). I think the best next step would be for to work torwards formalising the "clouds" effort somewhat, which will necessarily involve enumerating the opportunities for standards development and prioritising them. IETF-78 woul= d presumably be a good forum for this activity (assuming it can't be done mor= e inclusively on this mailing list). Sam 1. http://nih.blogspot.com/2010_04_01_archive.html 2. http://news.cnet.com/8301-19413_3-10440799-240.html On 9 April 2010 10:07, zhangyunfei wrote: > I just want to know more praticial deployment on this point since Sam > mentioned this. > ---------------------------------- > [Sam] > > Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was how to remotely instru= ct > servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, moving a virtual > machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a mobile devic= e > on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a good sta= rt > (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed and possib= ly > promoted for more generic application. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > ------------------------------ > zhangyunfei > 2010-04-09 > ------------------------------ > *=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* Wang Xu > *=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA* 2010-04-09 16:03:32 > *=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* meng.yu > *=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA* zhangyunfei; clouds@ietf.org > *=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA* Re:_[clouds]_=B4=F0=B8=B4:_scope_of_the_cloud > > Yunfei and Meng, > > Do you have any practical use case of live migration of virtua= l > machine? I do not find any case of heavy utilization of VM > migration. > > And some tests indicated that the migration in product environme= nt > is > not mature enough yet. > > 2010/4/9 > > > > Not only (virtual )resource/(or tasks) migration esp. in > different clouds, but migration from different servers in one > cloud, I think it could be resonable. > > > > Further, I am thinking could them be harmonized together for > the protocol aspect? > > > > > > > > "zhangyunfei" > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: clouds-bounces@ietf.org > > > > 2010-04-09 14:21 > > > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB > > "clouds@ietf.org" , "sjj" > > =B3=AD=CB=CD > > =D6=F7=CC=E2 > > [clouds] scope of the cloud > > > > > > > > > > Hi all. > > Some kindly told me that my email is not displayed > corretly.So send again. > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > Sam and all, > > The topic of standardizing (virtual )resource migration esp= . > in different clouds you mentioned sounds interesting.Do you have > more details to share?Thanks. > > Another point:Is there standard protocols in interconnecti= ng > different regions of clusters?I thinks if there are room to > expolore,it would be a suitable topic in IETF. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > > > > > ________________________________ > > zhangyunfei > > 2010-04-09_______________________________________________ > > clouds mailing list > > clouds@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clouds mailing list > > clouds@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > > > -- > Wang Xu > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --00151747c0f05fedec0483c9d4a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yunfei/Wang/Meng,

My interest was not limited to v= irtual machines (which require some amount of choreography on either side o= f the actual move) but rather files, databases, code, documents - basically= anything that you might want to move from A to B (where you are not necess= arily A or B).

Another area of potential interest is a lightweight "pr= ofile" of HTTP for constrained devices, whereby one does not have to i= mplement a full-blown HTTP client & server pair simply to query an elec= tricity meter. Some of these issues were already discussed earlier this wee= k[1]. The same could be said for application of [vanilla] HTTP to files, da= tabases, etc. (e.g. the relevant subset of CDMI).

We're also missing a way of describing containers (= e.g. hypervisors, platforms, etc.) and workloads (e.g. applications, virtua= l machines). CloudAudit provides a technical solution to the former (but it= 's out of scope) and Cisco's James Urquhart has been working on a d= escriptor format for the latter[2]. Both of these areas seem appropriate fo= r IETF involvement, and indeed CloudAudit could be worked into a generic ca= talog service (e.g. the legal name of the provider, its location, logo, ser= vices, SLAs, etc.).

I think the best next step would be for to work torward= s formalising the "clouds" effort somewhat, which will necessaril= y involve enumerating the opportunities for standards development and prior= itising them. IETF-78 would presumably be a good forum for this activity (a= ssuming it can't be done more inclusively on this mailing list).

Sam

On 9 April 2010 10:07, zhangyunfei <zhangyunfei@chi= namobile.com> wrote:
I just want to kno= w more praticial=20 deployment on this point since Sam mentioned this.
------------------= ----------------
[Sam]

Another issue I ran into while writing cush[3] was h= ow to=20 remotely instruct servers to migrate (live?) resources - for example, movin= g a=20 virtual machine, database, etc. from one location to another using a mobile= =20 device on a 3G connection. I believe WebDAV's COPY and MOVE verbs are a= good=20 start (this is what we're using for OCCI) but they could be reviewed an= d=20 possibly promoted for more generic application.

 

BR

Yunfei

 
zhangyunfei<= /font>
2010-04-09
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA Wang=20 Xu
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4=A3=BA=20 2010-04-09 16:03:32
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA=20 meng.yu
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA zhangyunfei;=20 clouds@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA=20 Re:_[clouds]_=B4=F0=B8=B4:_scope_of_the_cloud
 
Yunfei  and  Meng,
 
Do  you  have  any  practical  use  case= =20  of  live  migration  of  virtual
machine?  I  do  not  find  any  case=20  of  heavy  utilization  of VM  migration.
 
And  some  tests  indicated  that  the=20  migration  in  product  environment  is
not  mature  enough  yet.
 
2010/4/9   <meng.yu@zte.com.cn >
>
>  Not  only  (virtual  )resource/(or  tas= ks)=20  migration  esp.  in  different  clouds,  but= =20  migration  from  different  servers  in  one= =20  cloud,  I  think  it  could  be=20  resonable.
>
>  Further,  I  am  thinking  could  = them=20  be  harmonized  together  for  the  protocol= =20  aspect?
>
>
>
>  "zhangyunfei"   <zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com &g= t;
>  =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:   clouds-bounces@ietf.org
>
>  2010-04-09  14:21
>
>  =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB
>  "= clouds@ietf.org"   <clouds@ietf.org >,  "sjj"=20   <sjj@google.c= om >
>  =B3=AD=CB=CD
>  =D6=F7=CC=E2
>  [clouds]  scope  of  the  cloud
>
>
>
>
>  Hi  all.
>        Some  kindly  told &nbs= p;me=20  that  my  email  is  not  displayed=20  corretly.So  send  again.
>  -------------------------------------------------
>
>  Sam  and  all,
>      The  topic  of  standardi= zing=20  (virtual  )resource  migration  esp.  in=20  different  clouds  you  mentioned  sounds=20  interesting.Do  you  have  more  details  to= =20  share?Thanks.
>        Another  point:Is  ther= e=20  standard  protocols  in  interconnecting  differe= nt=20  regions  of  clusters?I  thinks  if  there= =20  are  room  to  expolore,it  would  be  = a=20  suitable  topic  in  IETF.
>
>  BR
>  Yunfei
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  zhangyunfei
>  2010-04-09_______________________________________________
>  clouds  mailing  list
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  clouds  mailing  list
>
 
 
 
--
Wang  Xu

_______________________________________________
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds


--00151747c0f05fedec0483c9d4a9-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Fri Apr 9 02:21:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFB73A6809 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 02:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -90.283 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.283 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.555, BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_56=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_81=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sf9OcoCG7Ksu for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 02:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6CC13A6359 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 02:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.4.61]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010040917374728-18128 ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:37:47 +0800 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:20:00 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Sam Johnston" References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201004091720002817140@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 17:37:47, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 17:20:22, Serialize complete at 2010-04-09 17:20:22 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon232873512212_=====" Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] =?gb2312?b?X1+08Li0Ol9zY29wZV9vZl90aGVfY2xvdWQ=?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 09:21:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon232873512212_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" VGhhbmtzIFNhbSBmb3IgdGhlIHJlcGx5Lg0KUGVyc29uYWxseSBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBtaWdyYXRp b24scmVzb3VyY2UgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24obWF5YmUgdGhlcmUgYXJlIHNpbWlsYXIgZWZmb3J0cyBp biBvdGhlciBTRE9zIGFscmVhZHkpIGFyZSBnb29kIHRvcGljcyB0byBkaXNjdXNzLg0KQXMgZm9y IGxpZ2h0d2VpZ2h0IEhUVFAsIEkgYW0gbm90IHN1cmUgaWYgdGhpcyBpcyBhbiB1bmlxdWUgcHJv YmxlbSBpbiBjbG91ZCBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMuSXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHRyZWF0ZWQgYXMgYW4gaW5k ZXBlbmRlbnQgcHJvYmxlbSBpbiBteSBwb2ludCBvZiB2aWV3Lg0KSnVzdCB0d28gY2VudHMuDQoN 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sunshaoling@chinamobile.com Fri Apr 9 03:05:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 647093A6919 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:05:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.832 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.832 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=1.456, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kNOVZa9-ehEx for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB253A6946 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmcc- ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010040918231157-19408 ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 18:23:11 +0800 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 18:05:23 +0800 From: "=?utf-8?B?U3VuIFNoYW9saW5n?=" To: "=?utf-8?B?TmluZyBab25n?=" , "=?utf-8?B?J01vbmlxdWUgTW9ycm93IChtbW9ycm93KSc=?=" , "=?utf-8?B?J0JodW1pcCBLaGFzbmFiaXNoJw==?=" , "=?utf-8?B?J0xpbmRhIER1bmJhcic=?=" References: <001f01cad7c0$c1ccfd50$56548a0a@china.huawei.com> Message-ID: <201004091805235103629@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 10, 201, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 18:23:12, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-04-09 18:05:27, Serialize complete at 2010-04-09 18:05:27 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon507233688752_=====" Cc: =?utf-8?B?Y2xvdWRzQGlldGYub3Jn?= Subject: Re: [clouds] =?utf-8?q?Scope_of_the_Cloud_is_too_big?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 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NO X-Spam-Score: -0.073 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.073 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.525, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2KeGee4NzIft for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f179.google.com (mail-yx0-f179.google.com [209.85.210.179]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B58F3A67D2 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe9 with SMTP id 9so1737157yxe.29 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 03:58:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=NrSNNYUPJKBM2zhBKNHsjfdKLrjM2jCfcg1AbYhHLlc=; b=RCVYQC90O2Oe2MZWCilh2H6Eg0beDaHvbpRfbuUwGIEJEDVhIKUdm+ItvpJWOymrzP 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[clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:58:57 -0000 --0016e68e91af16bf240483cbad89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are both client side and server side API requirements, and we would need both for effective use and rolling out of cloud-based services. On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Sun Shaoling w= rote: > I fully agree with that. I think we shouldn't reinvent APIs or formats > defined by other SDOs unless we can prove those are good enough. > > > 2010-04-09 > ------------------------------ > Sun Shaoling > ------------------------------ > *=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* Ning Zong > *=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA* 2010-04-09 17:02:17 > *=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA* 'Monique Morrow (mmorrow)'; 'Bhumip Khasnabish= '; 'Linda Dunbar' > *=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA* clouds@ietf.org > *=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > I Agree with Monique. > > > > So far, I couldn't see any concrete problems need to be solved and why IE= TF > is the right place for such study. IMO, we could not move forward without > getting agreement on these basic issues. > > Clear Problem Statement and Gap Analysis on both SDO-wide and protocol-wi= de > are definitely required at this stage. > > > > My 2 cents. > > > > BR, > > Ning Zong > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Monique Morrow (mmorrow) > *Sent:* Friday, April 09, 2010 4:18 PM > *To:* Bhumip Khasnabish; Linda Dunbar > *Cc:* clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > Bhumip, > > Having attended-participated at the BoF and following this thread, some = of > my suggestions moving forward: > > 1. Clear problem statement; and specifically what corresponding protocol > work should the IETF develop and or reuse; > > 2. To [1] goes an SDO/Forum gap analysis [if not done already] as to assu= re > there is unnecessary replication of work and/or potential of SDO/forum > clash output =3D scope > > 3. Identification of use case examples; > > 4. Finally, is there any potential for interlock with work being kicked > off at the IRTF Virtual Networks Research Group WG? > > Best regards > > Monique > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Bhumip Khasnabish > Sent: Thu 4/8/2010 9:07 AM > To: Linda Dunbar > Cc: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of > cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. Cloud-base= d > storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based network > service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant > communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in th= e > same group please. Thanks a lot. > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > > I am looking at a very different angle of the "Cloud". Rather than the > > "IT functions as a service", I am looking at Virtual Network Services a= nd > > Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers. > > > > Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a > > separate discussion group. > > > > > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com > ] > > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM > > *To:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > > > > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > > > > > While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they al= l > > basically do the same thing - letting people consume IT functions as > > service. > > > > As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be > > authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, > data > > protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. > > > > > > > > Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal wit= h > > those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployme= nt > > recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really > covered. > > > > > > > > > > Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people > that > > care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither > ability, > > nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is > not > > good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and > > dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently > available. > > > > > > > > > > --Gene > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > *On > > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM > > *To:* carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > > > > > I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally > > different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. > > > > > > > > Linda > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org = ] > > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM > > *To:* 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > > > > > The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid > > distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is wha= t > was > > discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose wa= s > to > > get some informal discussion going first and see what people are > thinking. > > There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a g= ap > > analysis. > > > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > *On > > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM > > *To:* 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > > *Subject:* [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > > > > > I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don't think it is appropriate for IET= F > to > > have a working group on "CLOUD" because it means different things to > > different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that > > involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic > > categories: > > > > p Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS< > http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,290660,sid201_gc= i1358983,00.html > > > > ), > > > > p Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS)< > http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid201_gci13328= 92,00.html > >and > > > > p Software-as-a-Service (SaaS< > http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,290660,sid201_gc= i1170781,00.html > > > > ) > > > > > > > > There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest > > separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for o= ne > of > > them to become a working group. > > > > > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > *On > > Behalf Of *Mark Webb > > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases > > > > > > > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people > in > > attendance. > > > > > > > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort > that > > overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does > not > > need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. > > > > > > > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is th= e > > _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > > > > > > > Mark Webb > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > > > --Gene > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org > ] > > On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > > To: clouds@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulo= us > > that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > > > Peter > > > > -- > > Peter Saint-Andre > > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clouds mailing list > > clouds@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clouds mailing list > > clouds@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > > > > -- > Best Regards. > > Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) > > (c) 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the con= tent > of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=A8= =A6. > --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) (c) 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=A8=A6. --0016e68e91af16bf240483cbad89 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are both client side and server side API requirements, and we would n= eed both for effective use and rolling out of cloud-based services.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Sun Shaoling <sunshaoli= ng@chinamobile.com> wrote:
I fully agree with= that. I think we shouldn't reinvent APIs or formats defined by other S= DOs unless we can prove those are good enough.
 
 
2010-04-09 =
Sun Shaoling=
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Ning Zong
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA 2010-04-09  17:02:17
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA 'Monique Morrow (mmorrow)'; 'Bhumip Khasnabish'; '= ;Linda Dunbar'
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA = clouds@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA = Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

I= Agree with Monique.

&= nbsp;

S= o far, I couldn’t see any concrete problems need to be solved and why= IETF is the right place for such study. IMO, we could not move forward wit= hout getting agreement on these basic issues.

C= lear Problem Statement and Gap Analysis on both SDO-wide and protocol-wide = are definitely required at this stage.

&= nbsp;

M= y 2 cents.

&= nbsp;

B= R,

N= ing Zong

&= nbsp;

From= : clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Moniqu= e Morrow (mmorrow)
Sent: Friday, April 09, 201= 0 4:18 PM
To: Bhumip Kha= snabish; Linda Dunbar
Cc: clouds@ietf.org<= br> Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope= of the Cloud is too big

 

= Bhumip,

 Havi= ng attended-participated at the BoF and following this thread, some of my s= uggestions moving forward:

1. Clear problem statement; and specifically what corresponding protoco= l work should the IETF develop and or reuse;

2. To [1] goes an SDO/F= orum gap analysis [if not done already] as to assure there is unnecessary r= eplication of work and/or potential of SDO/forum clash  output =3D sco= pe

3. Identification of use case examples;

4. Finally,  is the= re any potential for interlock with work being kicked off at the IRTF Virtu= al Networks Research Group WG?

Best regards

Monique

--= ---Original Message-----
From: clouds-b= ounces@ietf.org on behalf of Bhumip Khasnabish
Sent: Thu 4/8/2010 9:= 07 AM
To: Linda Dunbar
Cc: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

of course there = are and will be many workitems within the theme of
cloud-based systems, = services, inter-cloud system, and so on.  Cloud-based
storage, clou= d-based mobile-data backup service,  cloud-based network
service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant
commu= nications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in the
sa= me group please. Thanks a lot.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Lind= a Dunbar <ldunba= r@huawei.com> wrote:

>  I am looking at a very different angle of the "Cloud&qu= ot;. Rather than the
> "IT functions as a service", I am lo= oking at Virtual Network Services and
> Storage Services which can be= offered by Service Providers.
>
> Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should= form a
> separate discussion group.
>
>
>
> = Linda Dunbar
>
>
>  ------------------------------ >
> *From:* Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]
> *Sent:* Thursda= y, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM
> *To:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb= '; clouds@ietf.org=
>
> *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
><= br>>
>
> While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are differen= t categories they all
> basically do the same thing - letting people = consume IT functions as
> service.
>
> As a result the same multiple problem spaces = apply: users need to be
> authenticated, their access need to be cont= rolled, activities audited, data
> protected, functionality provision= ed and the list goes on.
>
>
>
> Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does= not necessarily deal with
> those issues. I read their guidelines an= d it mostly deals with deployment
> recommendations, but the area of = auditing for example is not really covered.
>
>
>
>
> Ability to audit is really important i= f we want to insure that people that
> care about compliance actually= use cloud technologies. Yet neither ability,
> nor technology for th= at is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is not
> good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared an= d
> dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently= available.
>
>
>
>
> --Gene
>
><= br> >
>
>
>
>
> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces= @ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:1= 6 PM
> *To:* carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
><= br>>
> I find it difficult that people in the same room talking ab= out totally
> different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion mov= ing forward.
>
>
>
> Linda
>
>
>   ----= --------------------------
>
> *From:* Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.or= g]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM
> *To:* 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE= : [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> Th= e name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid
> distraction.  The technology discussions is what is key and that = is what was
> discussed in the informal meeting.  From what I ca= n tell the purpose was to
> get some informal discussion going first = and see what people are thinking.
> There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a = gap
> analysis.
>
>
> Carl
>
>
><= br>>
>
> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:4= 8 AM
> *To:* 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [clouds] Scope of = the Cloud is too big
>
>
>
> I attended the CLOUD's bar BOF. I don'= t think it is appropriate for IETF to
> have a working group on "= ;CLOUD" because it means different things to
> different people.= Cloud computing is a general term for anything that
> involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic<= br>> categories:
>
> p     Infrastructur= e-as-a-Service (IaaS<http:/= /searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,290660,sid201_gci1358983= ,00.html>
> ),
>
> p     Platform-as-a-Service (Pa= aS)<http://searchcloudcomputing.t= echtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid201_gci1332892,00.html>and
>
> p     Software-as-a-Service (SaaS<http://searchcloudcomputing.techtar= get.com/sDefinition/0,290660,sid201_gci1170781,00.html>
> )
>
>
>
> There are a lot of stuff under each = of the categories above. I suggest
> separating them and further stud= ying if there are enough contents for one of
> them to become a worki= ng group.
>
>
>
> Linda Dunbar
>
>
> &nbs= p;  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clo= uds-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Webb
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 A= M
> *To:* clouds= @ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases
>
>
>
> I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple = of people in
> attendance.
>
>
>
> An importa= nt perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that
> o= verlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway.  The industry does = not
> need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO.
&= gt;
>
>
> Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF ap= propriate gap analysis is the
> _most_ that should be pursued at this= point in time.
>
>
>
> Mark Webb
>
>
>
>
&= gt;
> On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:
>
= >
>
> Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and = attention.
> How can I help to move the discussion forward?
>
> Was the= re any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
> I think Clou= d interoperability and security are topics were IETF is
> traditional= ly focusing its efforts.
>
> --Gene
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
&= gt; From: clou= ds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org<clouds-bounces@ietf.org>]
> On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010= 9:48 AM
> To: c= louds@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases
>
> = On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:
>
> >    2. I saw references to bar BoF at last = IETF meeting, but could not
> >      = ; really figure out if the WG was chartered.
>
> It was a bar B= oF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous
> that folks are a long way from forming a WG.
>
> Peter
= >
> --
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> clouds mailing= list
> clouds@i= etf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________= _
> clouds mailing list
> clouds@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/clouds
>
>


--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobil= e:+001-781-752-8003, bh= umip@acm.org)

© 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print,= forward, and save the content
of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=A8=A6.=




--
Best Regards.
Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

© 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, = print, forward, and save the content of this email if you are not the inten= ded recipient of the communiqu=A8=A6.
--0016e68e91af16bf240483cbad89-- From vumip1@gmail.com Fri Apr 9 04:04:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472A43A687E for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:04:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.967 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.967 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.631, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id czC1Zw3eNxZw for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f179.google.com (mail-yx0-f179.google.com [209.85.210.179]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6AF73A67FA for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe9 with SMTP id 9so1739151yxe.29 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 04:03:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=weY/6lHNjT6BdRks3NEt4sc3Qnay/8F8B+P7nZ8wVmI=; b=MxUrSbNYWZt5ZyCFy67KqJfKPAKSmksylB4Vq7bXCahcHUf7IjOERt9Bgp91h+Kmsv qVUN5WVvTRpdLmN7Uv4XHT/9oJzGWz0TCP1IZw3Ta+PZ8yqg4tRBPseDudq/XpubaDeu Vn7kI5PXOIJ9gSwNHk394u5RiYzFg0vjXzIlA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=uDObfDekomobprgYQ+cYrrR/2BO8aO1KvRpxrnVPsTWCb/rW7Yq2RFcMCXN4bQbaPQ 1679Xb2VQo+yZJDgjGtjJmZ5ADJL7cFbNqgt4jW2c4vw8Y0Ypj3Lo/bQpnpJ82jZofSB Q4c54FMnxFJvVSYWCVPbQ+UO2FBwREwreBsnM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.8.147 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:03:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <14584D6EE26B314187A4F68BA206060003A394BD@ASHEVS008.mcilink.com> References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <14584D6EE26B314187A4F68BA206060003A394BD@ASHEVS008.mcilink.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 07:03:54 -0400 Received: by 10.150.254.5 with SMTP id b5mr81457ybi.161.1270811034686; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 04:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Bhumip Khasnabish To: "So, Ning" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd2dcde4c97af0483cbc0c4 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:04:12 -0000 --000e0cd2dcde4c97af0483cbc0c4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Ning. We are seeing wide-spread need to find effective and implementable answers to these questions in Clouds environment. We'll certainly add this as one work item. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:08 PM, So, Ning wrot= e: > Carrier/operators indeed do have a unique angle to the Cloud-based > Services, including but not limited to storage, data mining/search, > computing, and so on. How does this new type of services interwork with = the > existing MPLS-based network technologies? For example, how does these > service interwork with today=92s L2 and L3 VPN based-services? How is th= e > virtual separation of the traffic/data/queries maintained end-to-end for = the > security conscious customers? > > > > Ning So > > Lead Engineer > > Global Data Network Traffic Planning > > 972-729-7905 > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:22 AM > *To:* 'Gene Golovinsky'; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.or= g > > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I am looking at a very different angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than th= e =93IT > functions as a service=94, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and > Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers. > > Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a > separate discussion group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM > *To:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all > basically do the same thing =96 letting people consume IT functions as > service. > > As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be > authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, da= ta > protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. > > > > Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with > those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment > recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really cover= ed. > > > > > Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people tha= t > care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither abilit= y, > nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is n= ot > good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and > dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently availab= le. > > > > > --Gene > > > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM > *To:* carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally > different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. > > > > Linda > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM > *To:* 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid > distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what = was > discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was = to > get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking= . > There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap > analysis. > > > Carl > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM > *To:* 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appropriate for I= ETF to > have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means different things to > different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that > involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic > categories: > > p Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS > ), > > p Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS)and > > p Software-as-a-Service (SaaS > ) > > > > There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest > separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one= of > them to become a working group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Webb > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases > > > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people i= n > attendance. > > > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort th= at > overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does no= t > need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. > > > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the > _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > > > Mark Webb > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous > that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --000e0cd2dcde4c97af0483cbc0c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Ning. We are seeing wide-spread need to find effective and impl= ementable answers to these questions in Clouds environment.
We'll certainly add this as one work item.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 12:08 PM, So, Ning <ning.so@verizonbusiness.com> wrote:

Carrier/operato= rs indeed do have a unique angle to the Cloud-based Services, including but= not limited to storage, data mining/search, computing, and so on. =A0How d= oes this new type of services interwork with the existing MPLS-based networ= k technologies?=A0 For example, how does these service interwork with today= =92s L2 and L3 VPN based-services? =A0How is the virtual separation of the = traffic/data/queries maintained end-to-end for the security conscious custo= mers?=A0

=A0

Ning So<= /font>

Lead Engineer=

Global Data Net= work Traffic Planning

972-729-7905<= /p>

=A0

From:= clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2= 010 10:22 AM
To: 'Ge= ne Golovinsky'; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org=20


Subject: Re: [clou= ds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

=A0

I am looking at= a very different angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than the =93IT functions= as a service=94, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Serv= ices which can be offered by Service Providers.

Are there anyon= e else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion = group.

=A0

Linda Dunbar

=A0

From: Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com]=
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2= 010 7:37 AM
To: Linda Du= nbar; carlw@mcsr-l= abs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope= of the Cloud is too big

=A0

While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are differen= t categories they all basically do the same thing =96 letting people consum= e IT functions as service.

As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply:= users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activi= ties audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes o= n.

=A0

Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not = necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly d= eals with deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example = is not really covered.

=A0

Ability to audit is really important if we want to = insure that people that care about compliance actually use cloud technologi= es. Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is there. While traditiona= l logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud simply because we are d= ealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources and user info is not= consistently available.

=A0

--Gene

=A0

=A0

=A0

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, = 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org;= 'Mark Webb'; = clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope= of the Cloud is too big

=A0

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about = totally different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward.=

=A0

Linda

=A0

From: Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] =
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, = 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'L= inda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope= of the Cloud is too big

=A0

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it cou= ld change to avoid distraction.=A0 The technology discussions is what is ke= y and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting.=A0 From what I ca= n tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see = what people are thinking.=A0 There seems to be some conclusion that the nex= t step was to conduct a gap analysis.


Carl

=A0

=A0

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Linda = Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, = 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'M= ark Webb'; clouds@= ietf.org
Subject: [clouds] Scope of = the Cloud is too big

=A0

I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appr= opriate for IETF to have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means di= fferent things to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for a= nything that involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see thre= e basic categories:

p=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS),

p=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS) and

p=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Software-as-a-Service (SaaS)

=A0

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. = I suggest separating them and further studying if there are enough contents= for one of them to become a working group.

=A0

Linda Dunbar

=A0

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Mark W= ebb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, = 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases<= /span>

=A0

I was not there at the BoF= , but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.<= /p>

=A0

An important perspective i= s to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO a= nd Forum already underway. =A0The industry does not need more SDO declaring= they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =A0

=A0

Seeking contributions on r= elevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be pu= rsued at this point in time.

=A0

Mark Webb

=A0

=A0

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 A= M, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

=A0

Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF t= ime and attention.
How can I help to move the discussion forward?
Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditi= onally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message= -----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Sain= t-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use c= ases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>=A0=A0=A0 = 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It= was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous tha= t folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter S= aint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


_______________________________________________
clouds mai= ling list
clouds@ie= tf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

=A0


________________________________________= _______
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds



--
Best Regards.

Bh= umip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. = Do not view, print, forward, and save the content of this email if you are = not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9.
--000e0cd2dcde4c97af0483cbc0c4-- From vumip1@gmail.com Fri Apr 9 04:15:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDF63A688E for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:15:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.093 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.093 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.505, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cEEZj-igUCwF for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f179.google.com (mail-yx0-f179.google.com [209.85.210.179]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6173A685A for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe9 with SMTP id 9so1743743yxe.29 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 04:15:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=OMfp2eXy7+QVGIFXLjrKmVaMd09GHPxyLcH9Gqm7ytQ=; b=wbtNaViU3r6j7wnVb7wM3LjPIYkd1vrhlVLR+cPqACkQ29SKUDM2GsEn/nV7K5zQqV ljpsQcO+HOA5L4NkKRT9aT/1CpWBuJ0fVmtzhExUhmOrOMSoprRE6192ZsPn2jK1pWhO FsExmb6QfYgoS1WDjEGtZI0Ye2JL+KeODD0Cg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=tcXNfz8/YaVQWSb51H45NNzSEnXEApSxryTSMMWkRKoeHvkzroTwuigPMErWwPo/+l q4K3zIZkVPWTSS5kSpTkrcFDv9dB6Xmfifjhvu0SbQSLHGCzyf8+Padk8WqhpIgGOMjo nGBQi50ufee58NdQyjDlURF7efls7Ib39QQm8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.8.147 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:15:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5C09B@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <0C9A0528F0979949A528AD5F6B83DA9709D5C09B@xmb-sjc-227.amer.cisco.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 07:15:21 -0400 Received: by 10.101.28.19 with SMTP id f19mr2231636anj.176.1270811721844; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 04:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Bhumip Khasnabish To: "Masum Hasan (masum)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b2b03b41c8010483cbe957 Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:15:31 -0000 --001636b2b03b41c8010483cbe957 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Masum. We'll certainly add this as a work item for further discussion. I had an opportunity to talk about this with Monique after the Clouds bar BoF during IETF-77 as well. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Masum Hasan (masum) wrote= : > Focusing on specific area, specially as it relates to network (like > =93virtual network services for Cloud=94), is a good idea to pursue in I= ETF (so > far the focus is lacking). > > > > > > --Masum > > > > 408 219 9713 Cell 408 853 5926 Desk > > http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/ > > http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/masum/ (Intranet) > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:22 AM > *To:* 'Gene Golovinsky'; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb (mwebb); > clouds@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I am looking at a very different angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than th= e =93IT > functions as a service=94, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and > Storage Services which can be offered by Service Providers. > > Are there anyone else interested in this area? Maybe we should form a > separate discussion group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Gene Golovinsky [mailto:gene@alertlogic.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM > *To:* Linda Dunbar; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are different categories they all > basically do the same thing =96 letting people consume IT functions as > service. > > As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply: users need to be > authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activities audited, da= ta > protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes on. > > > > Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not necessarily deal with > those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly deals with deployment > recommendations, but the area of auditing for example is not really cover= ed. > > > > > Ability to audit is really important if we want to insure that people tha= t > care about compliance actually use cloud technologies. Yet neither abilit= y, > nor technology for that is there. While traditional logging (syslog) is n= ot > good enough for the cloud simply because we are dealing with shared and > dynamically allocated resources and user info is not consistently availab= le. > > > > > --Gene > > > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM > *To:* carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally > different subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. > > > > Linda > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Carl Williams [mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM > *To:* 'Linda Dunbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it could change to avoid > distraction. The technology discussions is what is key and that is what = was > discussed in the informal meeting. From what I can tell the purpose was = to > get some informal discussion going first and see what people are thinking= . > There seems to be some conclusion that the next step was to conduct a gap > analysis. > > > Carl > > > > > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM > *To:* 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big > > > > I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appropriate for I= ETF to > have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means different things to > different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything that > involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic > categories: > > p Infrastructure-as-a-Service (IaaS > ), > > p Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS)and > > p Software-as-a-Service (SaaS > ) > > > > There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest > separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one= of > them to become a working group. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mark Webb > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM > *To:* clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] Use cases > > > > I was not there at the BoF, but did get reports from a couple of people i= n > attendance. > > > > An important perspective is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort th= at > overlaps with other SDO and Forum already underway. The industry does no= t > need more SDO declaring they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. > > > > Seeking contributions on relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the > _most_ that should be pursued at this point in time. > > > > Mark Webb > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > > Well, I think this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention. > How can I help to move the discussion forward? > > Was there any specific area out of the white paper discussed? > I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is > traditionally focusing its efforts. > > --Gene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM > To: clouds@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [clouds] Use cases > > On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote: > > > 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not > > really figure out if the WG was chartered. > > It was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous > that folks are a long way from forming a WG. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --001636b2b03b41c8010483cbe957 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Masum. We'll certainly add this as a work item for further = discussion. I had an opportunity to talk about this with Monique after the = Clouds bar BoF during IETF-77 as well.

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Masum Hasan (mas= um) <masum@cisco.co= m> wrote:

Focusing on specific= area, specially as it relates to network (like =93virtual network services= for Cloud=94), =A0is a good idea to pursue in IETF (so far the focus is la= cking).

=A0

=A0

--Masum

=A0

408 219 9713=A0=A0 C= ell=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 408 853 5926=A0=A0 D= esk

http://home.comcast.net/~masumz/=

http://wwwin-people.cisco.co= m/masum/ (Intranet)

=A0

=A0

From:<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 8:22 AM
To: 'Gene Golov= insky'; carlw@= mcsr-labs.org; Mark Webb (mwebb); clouds@ietf.org=20


Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is to= o big

=A0

I am looking at a very d= ifferent angle of the =93Cloud=94. Rather than the =93IT functions as a ser= vice=94, I am looking at Virtual Network Services and Storage Services whic= h can be offered by Service Providers.

Are there anyone else in= terested in this area? Maybe we should form a separate discussion group.

=A0

Linda Dunbar

=A0

From: Gene Golovinsk= y [mailto:gene@ale= rtlogic.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:37 AM
To: Linda Dunbar; <= a href=3D"mailto:carlw@mcsr-labs.org" target=3D"_blank">carlw@mcsr-labs.org= ; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

=A0

While I agree that SaaS, IaaS and PaaS are differe= nt categories they all basically do the same thing =96 letting people consu= me IT functions as service.

As a result the same multiple problem spaces apply= : users need to be authenticated, their access need to be controlled, activ= ities audited, data protected, functionality provisioned and the list goes = on.

=A0

Cloud Security Alliance mentioned earlier does not= necessarily deal with those issues. I read their guidelines and it mostly = deals with deployment recommendations, but the area of auditing for example= is not really covered.

=A0

Ability to audit is really important if we want to= insure that people that care about compliance actually use cloud technolog= ies. Yet neither ability, nor technology for that is there. While tradition= al logging (syslog) is not good enough for the cloud simply because we are = dealing with shared and dynamically allocated resources and user info is no= t consistently available.

=A0

--Gene

=A0

=A0

=A0

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [m= ailto:clouds-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:16 PM
To: carlw@mcsr-labs.org; 'M= ark Webb'; clouds@= ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

=

=A0

I find it difficult that people in the same room talking about totally d= ifferent subjects. Very hard to get the discussion moving forward. <= /p>

=A0

Linda

=A0

From: Carl Williams = [mailto:carlw@mcsr= -labs.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:59 AM
To: 'Linda Du= nbar'; 'Mark Webb'; clouds@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [clouds] Scope of th= e Cloud is too big

=A0

The name is irrelevant and perhaps in future it co= uld change to avoid distraction.=A0 The technology discussions is what is k= ey and that is what was discussed in the informal meeting.=A0 From what I c= an tell the purpose was to get some informal discussion going first and see= what people are thinking.=A0 There seems to be some conclusion that the ne= xt step was to conduct a gap analysis.


Carl

=A0

=A0

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:clouds= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:48 AM
To: 'Mark Web= b'; clouds@ietf.or= g
Subject: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big

<= /div>

=A0

I attended the CLOUD=92s bar BOF. I don=92t think it is appropriate f= or IETF to have a working group on =93CLOUD=94 because it means different t= hings to different people. Cloud computing is a general term for anything t= hat involves delivering services over the Internet. I can see three basic c= ategories:

p=A0 Infrastru= cture-as-a-Service (IaaS),

p=A0 Platform-= as-a-Service (PaaS) and

p=A0 Software-= as-a-Service (SaaS)

=A0

There are a lot of stuff under each of the categories above. I suggest= separating them and further studying if there are enough contents for one = of them to become a working group.

=A0

Linda Dunbar

=A0

From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [m= ailto:clouds-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Webb
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 10:09 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject:<= /b> Re: [clouds] Use cases

=A0

I was not there at the Bo= F, but did get reports from a couple of people in attendance.

=A0

An important perspective = is to ensure IETF does NOT start a new effort that overlaps with other SDO = and Forum already underway. =A0The industry does not need more SDO declarin= g they are relevant to cloud computing IMO. =A0

=A0

Seeking contributions on = relevant & IETF appropriate gap analysis is the _most_ that should be p= ursued at this point in time.

=A0

Mark Webb

=A0

=A0

On Apr 7, 2010, at 10:57 = AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

=A0

Well, I think= this is a topic worthy of IETF time and attention.
How can I help to mo= ve the discussion forward?

Was there any specific area out of the wh= ite paper discussed?
I think Cloud interoperability and security are topics were IETF is traditi= onally focusing its efforts.

--Gene


-----Original Message= -----
From: clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Sain= t-Andre
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:48 AM
To: clouds@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [clouds] Use c= ases

On 4/7/10 8:40 AM, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>=A0=A0=A0 = 2. I saw references to bar BoF at last IETF meeting, but could not
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 really figure out if the WG was chartered.

It= was a bar BoF, not a real BoF. And IMHO the discussion was so nebulous tha= t folks are a long way from forming a WG.

Peter

--
Peter S= aint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/


_______________________________________________
clouds mai= ling list
clouds@ie= tf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

=A0

=

_______________________________________________
cl= ouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org=
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds

=


--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mo= bile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the c= ontent of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu= =E9.
--001636b2b03b41c8010483cbe957-- From gene@alertlogic.com Fri Apr 9 04:59:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D9B3A69F4 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:59:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.076 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.076 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-5.308, BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6OGfA4W5a1Lw for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp181.dfw.emailsrvr.com (smtp181.dfw.emailsrvr.com [67.192.241.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50AF53A689C for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 04:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay18.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay18.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B6ADD16F08D1; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 07:59:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com [67.192.133.192]) by relay18.relay.dfw.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id ADADB16F3006; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 07:59:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 34093-MBX-C01.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.62]) by 222720-HUB07.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.206]) with mapi; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 06:59:41 -0500 From: Gene Golovinsky To: Sam Johnston , zhangyunfei Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 06:59:38 -0500 Thread-Topic: =?gb2312?B?W2Nsb3Vkc10gX1+08Li0Ol9zY29wZV9vZl90aGVfY2xvdWQ=?= Thread-Index: AcrXwTOQiBj5hXoEQd6G+xYEBWnj6wAGi++w Message-ID: References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D410418B5B08034093MBXC01me_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] =?gb2312?b?X1+08Li0Ol9zY29wZV9vZl90aGVfY2xvdWQ=?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:59:49 -0000 --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D410418B5B08034093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2UncmUgYWxzbyBtaXNzaW5nIGEgd2F5IG9mIGRlc2NyaWJpbmcgY29udGFpbmVycyAoZS5nLiBo eXBlcnZpc29ycywgcGxhdGZvcm1zLCBldGMuKSBhbmQgd29ya2xvYWRzIChlLmcuIGFwcGxpY2F0 aW9ucywgdmlydHVhbCBtYWNoaW5lcykuIENsb3VkQXVkaXQgcHJvdmlkZXMgYSB0ZWNobmljYWwg c29sdXRpb24gdG8gdGhlIGZvcm1lciAoYnV0IGl0J3Mgb3V0IG9mIHNjb3BlKSBhbmQgQ2lzY28n cyBKYW1lcyBVcnF1aGFydCBoYXMgYmVlbiB3b3JraW5nIG9uIGEgZGVzY3JpcHRvciBmb3JtYXQg Zm9yIHRoZSBsYXR0ZXJbMl0uIEJvdGggb2YgdGhlc2UgYXJlYXMgc2VlbSBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBm b3IgSUVURiBpbnZvbHZlbWVudCwgYW5kIGluZGVlZCBDbG91ZEF1ZGl0IGNvdWxkIGJlIHdvcmtl ZCBpbnRvIGEgZ2VuZXJpYyBjYXRhbG9nIHNlcnZpY2UgKGUuZy4gdGhlIGxlZ2FsIG5hbWUgb2Yg dGhlIHByb3ZpZGVyLCBpdHMgbG9jYXRpb24sIGxvZ28sIHNlcnZpY2VzLCBTTEFzLCBldGMuKS4N CltHZW5lPl0gSSBmdWxseSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHRoYXQNCg0KSSB0aGluayB0aGUgYmVzdCBuZXh0 IHN0ZXAgd291bGQgYmUgZm9yIHRvIHdvcmsgdG9yd2FyZHMgZm9ybWFsaXNpbmcgdGhlICJjbG91 ZHMiIGVmZm9ydCBzb21ld2hhdCwgd2hpY2ggd2lsbCBuZWNlc3NhcmlseSBpbnZvbHZlIGVudW1l cmF0aW5nIHRoZSBvcHBvcnR1bml0aWVzIGZvciBzdGFuZGFyZHMgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgYW5kIHBy aW9yaXRpc2luZyB0aGVtLiBJRVRGLTc4IHdvdWxkIHByZXN1bWFibHkgYmUgYSBnb29kIGZvcnVt IGZvciB0aGlzIGFjdGl2aXR5IChhc3N1bWluZyBpdCBjYW4ndCBiZSBkb25lIG1vcmUgaW5jbHVz aXZlbHkgb24gdGhpcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QpLg0KW0dlbmU+XSBJbiBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIHByZXZp b3VzIGUtbWFpbHMgdG8gdGhlIGxpc3QgQmh1bWlwIGhhcyBvdXRsaW5lZCBhcmVhcyBvZiBDbG91 ZCByZWxhdGVkIGludGVyZXN0cy4gVGhlbiB3ZSBoYWQgYSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9uIHRoZSBsaXN0 IHdoZXJlIHBlb3BsZSBleHByZXNzZWQgdGhlaXIgcHJlZmVyZW5jZXMsIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb25zIGFu ZCBkaXNhZ3JlZW1lbnRzLiBCaHVtaXAsIHNpbmNlIHlvdSB3ZXJlIGFscmVhZHkgZG9pbmcgdGhp cywgd291bGQgeW91IHBsZWFzZSByZWNhcCB0aGUgbGlzdCB0YWtpbmcgYWxsIHRoYXQgaW50byBh Y2NvdW50Pw0KDQpDaGVlcnMuDQotLUdlbmUNCg0KDQo= --_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D410418B5B08034093MBXC01me_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We're also missing a way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, platforms, etc.) and workloads (e.= g. applications, virtual machines). CloudAudit provides a technical solution t= o the former (but it's out of scope) and Cisco's James Urquhart has been work= ing on a descriptor format for the latter[2]. Both of these areas seem appropri= ate for IETF involvement, and indeed CloudAudit could be worked into a generic catalog service (e.g. the legal name of the provider, its location, logo, services, SLAs, etc.).

[Gene>] I fully agree with that

 

I think the best next step = would be for to work torwards formalising the "clouds" effort somewhat, wh= ich will necessarily involve enumerating the opportunities for standards development and prioritising them. IETF-78 would presumably be a good forum= for this activity (assuming it can't be done more inclusively on this mailing list).

[Gene>] In one of the previous e-mails to the list Bhumip= has outlined areas of Cloud related interests. Then we had a discussion on the = list where people expressed their preferences, suggestions and disagreements. Bh= umip, since you were already doing this, would you please recap the list taking a= ll that into account?

 

Cheers.

--Gene

 

 

--_000_C6A1D07CACFDBD4D9422C7D7ED288D410418B5B08034093MBXC01me_-- From vumip1@gmail.com Fri Apr 9 05:16:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3513A6882 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:16:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.245 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.245 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M4ZfUQzMtUCM for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f179.google.com (mail-yx0-f179.google.com [209.85.210.179]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530BF3A684A for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe9 with SMTP id 9so1771145yxe.29 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 05:16:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=vR/0zmRfYRldkdiBEEIDkBoKgmwHKgghaFSWUCyzL4Q=; b=I7K6oemyzNnxxYPCnNOyhf0Vj5xksTWuYK8AKDM5z5wFhGvmT865A71wJ/JbKg1yEa eyodHZYTmM/28vsOlYrfGEMoGRH/tCx7CZjI6Xzbwts1VIyicgFXU3Vh4OZVqUzraywW JcZkDAy4Gc2g63Z19yoOX65AMqfwN2LwoJhNU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=VzezG2lFWfSJ6f0P3D/AsyNEIX09JUbPXo+hAQIrQfYnUHv11HaRiE+02HHVgLIKqA +0zFh/tFn6JUU+Y1qcEvSlsLijA19A04KT0quXFs+sHf2ckDWvkowRh9XzO1sPzUiKqG XFcYtfQZ31EL1xLFucrRsufSwBMosVmakvnwE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.8.147 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:16:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:16:06 -0400 Received: by 10.100.246.13 with SMTP id t13mr2569571anh.208.1270815366845; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 05:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Bhumip Khasnabish To: Gene Golovinsky Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68deb5e84a0da0483ccc2b9 Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] =?gb2312?b?X1+08Li0Ol9zY29wZV9vZl90aGVfY2xvdWQ=?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:16:22 -0000 --0016e68deb5e84a0da0483ccc2b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, in progress, and doing this. Plan to publish this soon (may wait a few more days just to see whether we see any more new comments and/or suggestions). Thanks. 2010/4/9 Gene Golovinsky > We're also missing a way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, > platforms, etc.) and workloads (e.g. applications, virtual machines). > CloudAudit provides a technical solution to the former (but it's out of > scope) and Cisco's James Urquhart has been working on a descriptor format > for the latter[2]. Both of these areas seem appropriate for IETF > involvement, and indeed CloudAudit could be worked into a generic catalog > service (e.g. the legal name of the provider, its location, logo, service= s, > SLAs, etc.). > > *[Gene>] I fully agree with that* > > > > I think the best next step would be for to work torwards formalising the > "clouds" effort somewhat, which will necessarily involve enumerating the > opportunities for standards development and prioritising them. IETF-78 wo= uld > presumably be a good forum for this activity (assuming it can't be done m= ore > inclusively on this mailing list). > > *[Gene>] In one of the previous e-mails to the list Bhumip has outlined > areas of Cloud related interests. Then we had a discussion on the list wh= ere > people expressed their preferences, suggestions and disagreements. Bhumip= , > since you were already doing this, would you please recap the list taking > all that into account?* > > * * > > *Cheers.* > > *--Gene* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > clouds mailing list > clouds@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds > > --=20 Best Regards. Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. --0016e68deb5e84a0da0483ccc2b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, in progress, and doing this. Plan to publish this soon (may wait a few= more days just to see whether we see any more new comments and/or suggesti= ons). Thanks.

2010/4/9 Gene Golovinsky <<= a href=3D"mailto:gene@alertlogic.com">gene@alertlogic.com>

We're also missing = a way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, platforms, etc.) and work= loads (e.g. applications, virtual machines). CloudAudit provides a technica= l solution to the former (but it's out of scope) and Cisco's James = Urquhart has been working on a descriptor format for the latter[2]. Both of= these areas seem appropriate for IETF involvement, and indeed CloudAudit c= ould be worked into a generic catalog service (e.g. the legal name of the p= rovider, its location, logo, services, SLAs, etc.).

=A0

I think the best next s= tep would be for to work torwards formalising the "clouds" effort= somewhat, which will necessarily involve enumerating the opportunities for= standards development and prioritising them. IETF-78 would presumably be a= good forum for this activity (assuming it can't be done more inclusive= ly on this mailing list).

=A0

=A0


_______________________________________________
clouds mailing lis= t
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds




--
Best Regards.
Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org)

=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, p= rint, forward, and save the content of this email if you are not the intend= ed recipient of the communiqu=E9.
--0016e68deb5e84a0da0483ccc2b9-- From sjj@google.com Fri Apr 9 05:23:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0843A6A2B for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:23:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.654 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.654 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.870, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_BACKHAIR_54=1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U+D8FZYIblNz for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [216.239.44.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B97C3A6A2D for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wpaz13.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz13.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.77]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o39CNawb022146 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:23:36 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1270815816; bh=SaLmY5YfCt5Q/Mf0EY7Erk7OYqU=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=Nmp9UAZVuJbEnA3CFSAla/2pm7WmbcpHzI90MFeO+UvpZeZpFTbhJvzRRcz+RICkz rIPTXeyhweBfzANIF/zrg== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=tgRMINvQeX8ElcH7pf+6i4X0YBBZKdsesBkQCHvBoM8Nx/ynxzUgECpJLF5w8sfVH fAECxiwPf/c/N2OjhwKhA== Received: from bwz1 (bwz1.prod.google.com [10.188.26.1]) by wpaz13.hot.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o39CNFBD022722 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:23:35 -0700 Received: by bwz1 with SMTP id 1so2462897bwz.1 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 05:23:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.150.67 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 05:23:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:23:34 +0200 Received: by 10.204.19.137 with SMTP id a9mr20745bkb.24.1270815814564; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 05:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Sam Johnston To: Bhumip Khasnabish Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0003255549fa33bc080483ccddb5 X-System-Of-Record: true Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] =?utf-8?b?X1/nrZTlpI06X3Njb3BlX29mX3RoZV9jbG91ZA==?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:23:51 -0000 --0003255549fa33bc080483ccddb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9 April 2010 14:16, Bhumip Khasnabish wrote: > Yes, in progress, and doing this. Plan to publish this soon (may wait a f= ew > more days just to see whether we see any more new comments and/or > suggestions). Thanks. > Let me add another to the list then - AAA. Examples include OAuth Web Resource Authorization Profiles (draft-hardt-oauth), which is already in the IETF pipeline even if OAuth itself is not, and our new IMAP and SMTP authentication using OAuthspec, which is not. Sam 2010/4/9 Gene Golovinsky > >> We're also missing a way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, >> platforms, etc.) and workloads (e.g. applications, virtual machines). >> CloudAudit provides a technical solution to the former (but it's out of >> scope) and Cisco's James Urquhart has been working on a descriptor forma= t >> for the latter[2]. Both of these areas seem appropriate for IETF >> involvement, and indeed CloudAudit could be worked into a generic catalo= g >> service (e.g. the legal name of the provider, its location, logo, servic= es, >> SLAs, etc.). >> >> *[Gene>] I fully agree with that* >> >> >> >> I think the best next step would be for to work torwards formalising the >> "clouds" effort somewhat, which will necessarily involve enumerating the >> opportunities for standards development and prioritising them. IETF-78 w= ould >> presumably be a good forum for this activity (assuming it can't be done = more >> inclusively on this mailing list). >> >> *[Gene>] In one of the previous e-mails to the list Bhumip has outlined >> areas of Cloud related interests. Then we had a discussion on the list w= here >> people expressed their preferences, suggestions and disagreements. Bhumi= p, >> since you were already doing this, would you please recap the list takin= g >> all that into account?* >> >> * * >> >> *Cheers.* >> >> *--Gene* >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> clouds mailing list >> clouds@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds >> >> > > > -- > Best Regards. > > Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003, bhumip@acm.org) > > =A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the con= tent > of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9. > --0003255549fa33bc080483ccddb5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9 April 2010 14:16, Bhumip Khasnabish <vumip1@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, in progress, and doing this. Plan to publish this soon (may wait a few= more days just to see whether we see any more new comments and/or suggesti= ons). Thanks.

Let me add another to the= list then - AAA. Examples include OAuth Web Resource Authorization Profile= s (draft-hardt-oau= th), which is already in the IETF pipeline even if OAuth itself is not,= and our new IMAP and = SMTP authentication using OAuth spec, which is not.

Sam

2010/4/9 Gene Golovinsky <<= a href=3D"mailto:gene@alertlogic.com" target=3D"_blank">gene@alertlogic.com= >

We're also missing a= way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, platforms, etc.) and workl= oads (e.g. applications, virtual machines). CloudAudit provides a technical= solution to the former (but it's out of scope) and Cisco's James U= rquhart has been working on a descriptor format for the latter[2]. Both of = these areas seem appropriate for IETF involvement, and indeed CloudAudit co= uld be worked into a generic catalog service (e.g. the legal name of the pr= ovider, its location, logo, services, SLAs, etc.).

[= Gene>] I fully agree with that

=A0

I think the best next st= ep would be for to work torwards formalising the "clouds" effort = somewhat, which will necessarily involve enumerating the opportunities for = standards development and prioritising them. IETF-78 would presumably be a = good forum for this activity (assuming it can't be done more inclusivel= y on this mailing list).

[= Gene>] In one of the previous e-mails to the list Bhumip has outlined ar= eas of Cloud related interests. Then we had a discussion on the list where = people expressed their preferences, suggestions and disagreements. Bhumip, = since you were already doing this, would you please recap the list taking a= ll that into account?

= =A0

C= heers.

-= -Gene

=A0

=A0


________________________________________= _______
clouds mailing list
clouds@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds



=
--
Best Regards.

Bhumip Khasnabish (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003= , bhumip@acm.org)
=A9 2010 Bhumip Khasnabish. Do not view, print, forward, and save the conte= nt of this email if you are not the intended recipient of the communiqu=E9.=

--0003255549fa33bc080483ccddb5-- From dromasca@avaya.com Sun Apr 11 02:54:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2DF3A689D for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 02:54:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.925 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.925 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.184, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AtLxU3cumMIB for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 02:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com (de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com [198.152.71.100]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907383A684C for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 02:54:34 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,184,1270440000"; d="scan'208,217";a="183802823" Received: from unknown (HELO p-us1-erheast.us1.avaya.com) ([135.11.50.53]) by de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com with ESMTP; 11 Apr 2010 05:54:28 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,184,1270440000"; d="scan'208,217";a="450534975" Received: from unknown (HELO 307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com) ([135.64.140.15]) by p-us1-erheast-out.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP; 11 Apr 2010 05:54:26 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAD95C.EC1F1825" Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:54:05 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4BBE2973.2080003@oracle.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big Thread-Index: AcrXTw/qltfNHLHYT6+E79XtAy/IswCDUPDw References: <4BBC9B0C.5050207@stpeter.im> <008001cad669$a4d0add0$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <010401cad673$9e2ca6f0$da85f4d0$@org> <00d001cad676$0be2fa30$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <008201cad72f$2e502700$440c7c0a@china.huawei.com> <8FA8FF27-FB6D-42EF-A056-6D631D4A2F04@arsc.edu> <4BBE2973.2080003@oracle.com> From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" To: "Mark Carlson" , "Melinda Shore" Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:54:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD95C.EC1F1825 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, =20 As a matter of clarification (which I repeatedly made in our conference calls) - I am not 'representing' the IETF in any formal manner in this activity. I am participating as an individual contributor. Of course, as an IETF participant I am sharing information related to the IETF activities that I am aware about. =20 Dan =20 ________________________________ From: Mark Carlson [mailto:mark.carlson@oracle.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:08 PM To: Melinda Shore Cc: Bhumip Khasnabish; clouds@ietf.org; Romascanu, Dan (Dan) Subject: Re: [clouds] Scope of the Cloud is too big =09 =09 Agreed. If you want a good place to start, go to: =09 http://cloud-standards.org =09 We are already coordinating cloud work from the various SDOs there, and IETF is represented by Dan Romascanu . =09 -- mark =09 On 4/8/10 12:50 PM, Melinda Shore wrote:=20 On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Bhumip Khasnabish wrote:=20 =09 of course there are and will be many workitems within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud system, and so on. Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup service, cloud-based network service in order to maintain service continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few examples. Can we keep the discussion in the same group please. Thanks a lot.=20 =09 I think it might be worthwhile for people who are fishing=20 for work to do to sit down and take a look at the charters=20 for some established working groups, with a particular eye=20 to how the work is scoped, how the deliverables are=20 defined, and so on. I think it's kind of weird that=20 people want to work on something but they aren't sure what -=20 usually it's an idea or ideas that drive work, or at least=20 some problem that's got at least some wee little bit of=20 definition - but as long as people seem intent on taking this approach it might help to have some sense of what=20 this flailing about ought to produce. Work in the IETF is=20 much more narrowly-focused and precisely-scoped than is=20 the norm in other standards bodies and/or industry consortia.=20 =09 Melinda=20 =09 _______________________________________________=20 clouds mailing list=20 clouds@ietf.org=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds=20 =09 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD95C.EC1F1825 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
 
As=20 a matter of clarification (which I repeatedly made in our = conference calls) -  I am not 'representing' the IETF in any formal = manner=20 in this activity. I am participating as an individual contributor. Of = course, as=20 an IETF participant I am sharing information related to the IETF = activities that=20 I am aware about.
 
Dan
 

From: Mark Carlson=20 [mailto:mark.carlson@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, = 2010=20 10:08 PM
To: Melinda Shore
Cc: Bhumip Khasnabish;=20 clouds@ietf.org; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
Subject: Re: [clouds] = Scope of=20 the Cloud is too big

Agreed. If you want a good place to start, = go=20 to:

http://cloud-standards.org
We are=20 already coordinating cloud work from the various
SDOs there, and = IETF is=20 represented by Dan=20 Romascanu.

-- mark

On 4/8/10 12:50 PM, = Melinda Shore=20 wrote:=20
On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:07 AM, Bhumip Khasnabish wrote: =
of course there are and will be many = workitems=20 within the theme of cloud-based systems, services, inter-cloud = system, and=20 so on.  Cloud-based storage, cloud-based mobile-data backup=20 service,  cloud-based network service in order to maintain = service=20 continuity, disaster-tolerant communications, etc. are a few = examples. Can=20 we keep the discussion in the same group please. Thanks a lot.=20

I think it might be worthwhile for people who = are=20 fishing
for work to do to sit down and take a look at the = charters=20
for some established working groups, with a particular eye =
to how=20 the work is scoped, how the deliverables are
defined, and so = on.  I=20 think it's kind of weird that
people want to work on something = but they=20 aren't sure what -
usually it's an idea or ideas that drive = work, or at=20 least
some problem that's got at least some wee little bit of=20
definition - but as long as people seem intent on taking =
this=20 approach it might help to have some sense of what
this flailing = about=20 ought to produce.  Work in the IETF is
much more = narrowly-focused=20 and precisely-scoped than is
the norm in other standards bodies = and/or=20 industry consortia.

Melinda=20

_______________________________________________
clouds = mailing=20 list
clouds@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/clouds=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD95C.EC1F1825-- From mwebb@cisco.com Tue Apr 13 13:39:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F5A28C1A8 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:39:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.264 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.264 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S+9gJcvHZKFf for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57BB43A6A80 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAI5yxEurRN+J/2dsb2JhbACbRXGjeJojhQ0E X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,199,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="182503456" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Apr 2010 20:38:19 +0000 Received: from dhcp-171-71-119-220.cisco.com (dhcp-171-71-119-220.cisco.com [171.71.119.220]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o3DKcJXf019368; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:38:19 GMT Message-Id: <92648F46-12F1-4CF8-BFD1-77E3E2DE4C15@cisco.com> From: Mark Webb To: Sam Johnston In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-45-826122660 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:38:18 -0400 References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] =?gb2312?b?X1+08Li0Ol9zY29wZV9vZl90aGVfY2xvdWQ=?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:39:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail-45-826122660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Apr 9, 2010, at 4:46 AM, Sam Johnston wrote: > We're also missing a way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, > platforms, etc.) and workloads (e.g. applications, virtual machines). I really think this is the realm of DMTF. They have a good start with OVF. There is more to do, (network, security and policy abstraction to name a couple) but it would be good for the industry if those container issues were mostly handled in this same place. Mark Webb --Apple-Mail-45-826122660 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Apr 9, 2010, = at 4:46 AM, Sam Johnston wrote:

We're also missing a way of = describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, platforms, etc.) and workloads = (e.g. applications, virtual machines). 

I really think this is the realm of DMTF.  They have a good = start with OVF. There is more to do, (network, security and policy = abstraction to name a couple) but it would be good for the industry if = those container issues were mostly handled in this same = place.

Mark Webb

= --Apple-Mail-45-826122660-- From sjj@google.com Wed Apr 14 05:47:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D5228C154 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:47:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.407 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.483, BAYES_50=0.001, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TPpKe+H1YeCB for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [74.125.121.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DFE128C191 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kpbe16.cbf.corp.google.com (kpbe16.cbf.corp.google.com [172.25.105.80]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o3ECgiLw027467 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:42:44 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1271248965; bh=GVSotvtlu6AwA2g1dgoIFcErjm0=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=Sct9JW9icDNxswyimbMscQc8szMLBQSepTVcv1/rjo8Je3poOK+eDrSYOtNyaya/v oh+Eptkba7YHKKRcs8/wA== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=Hn9xWp9wBEtn2sBckqFfPYQL4P4VrwO1ITrt1VVpu2mGA51jOM+OEFBD2BI+zUHGW cIhB9mm5X2G1XI6iLtPpQ== Received: from bwz5 (bwz5.prod.google.com [10.188.26.5]) by kpbe16.cbf.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o3ECggqV031322 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:42:43 -0700 Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so83220bwz.0 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:42:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.150.67 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:42:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <92648F46-12F1-4CF8-BFD1-77E3E2DE4C15@cisco.com> References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> <92648F46-12F1-4CF8-BFD1-77E3E2DE4C15@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:42:36 +0200 Received: by 10.204.32.77 with SMTP id b13mr8415571bkd.113.1271248956435; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Sam Johnston To: Mark Webb Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325555bba783861048431b683 X-System-Of-Record: true Cc: "clouds@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [clouds] =?utf-8?b?X1/nrZTlpI06X3Njb3BlX29mX3RoZV9jbG91ZA==?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:47:26 -0000 --000325555bba783861048431b683 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 13 April 2010 22:38, Mark Webb wrote: > > On Apr 9, 2010, at 4:46 AM, Sam Johnston wrote: > > We're also missing a way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, > platforms, etc.) and workloads (e.g. applications, virtual machines). > > I really think this is the realm of DMTF. They have a good start with OVF. > There is more to do, (network, security and policy abstraction to name a > couple) but it would be good for the industry if those container issues were > mostly handled in this same place. > That may be true, but what IETF is renowned for is creating relatively tight, interoperable specifications for well defined/constrained problems. Others tend to want to boil oceans (e.g. OVF's normative reference to CIM), which may well be necessary to solve their problems (e.g. "private" cloud) but not ours (e.g. services like EC2). Sam --000325555bba783861048431b683 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 13 April 2010 22:38, Mark Webb <mwebb@cisco.com> wrote:

On Apr = 9, 2010, at 4:46 AM, Sam Johnston wrote:
We&#= 39;re also missing a way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, platfo= rms, etc.) and workloads (e.g. applications, virtual machines).=A0
I really think this is the realm of DMTF. =A0They have a g= ood start with OVF. There is more to do, (network, security and policy abst= raction to name a couple) but it would be good for the industry if those co= ntainer issues were mostly handled in this same place.

That may be true, but what IET= F is renowned for is creating relatively tight, interoperable specification= s for well defined/constrained problems. Others tend to want to boil oceans= (e.g. OVF's normative reference to CIM), which may well be necessary t= o solve their problems (e.g. "private" cloud) but not ours (e.g. = services like EC2).

Sam

--000325555bba783861048431b683-- From ksankar@cisco.com Wed Apr 14 05:55:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C3923A67FD for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TEsiq85fr6pJ for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F5F3A6829 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiQFAJVXxUurR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACBP4FVl21XcaMkiF6RD4JfgUBuBIMp X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,204,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="115047706" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Apr 2010 12:53:46 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o3ECrkr7012065; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:53:46 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-219.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.188]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:53:46 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CADBD1.84C7FB27" Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:53:22 -0700 Message-ID: <9FA16888AD1BF64ABCE6C2532CCEB98A0A0785B8@xmb-sjc-219.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: =?UTF-8?B?W2Nsb3Vkc10gX1/nrZTlpI06X3Njb3BlX29mX3RoZV9jbG91?= =?UTF-8?B?ZA==?= Thread-Index: Acrb0KJUf4PYGOUdQASLeteElhagsAAAIHMw References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com><201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com><92648F46-12F1-4CF8-BFD1-77E3E2DE4C15@cisco.com> From: "Krishna Sankar (ksankar)" To: "Sam Johnston" , "Mark Webb (mwebb)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Apr 2010 12:53:46.0193 (UTC) FILETIME=[85251C10:01CADBD1] Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] =?utf-8?b?X1/nrZTlpI06X3Njb3BlX29mX3RoZV9jbG91ZA==?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:55:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CADBD1.84C7FB27 Content-Type: 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OzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCg0KPC9kaXY+DQoNCjxkaXY+DQoNCjxwIGNsYXNzPU1zb05vcm1hbD5TYW08 bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCg0KPC9kaXY+DQoNCjxkaXY+DQoNCjxwIGNsYXNzPU1zb05vcm1hbD48 bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCg0KPC9kaXY+DQoNCjwvZGl2Pg0KDQo8L2JvZHk+DQoNCjwv aHRtbD4NCg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01CADBD1.84C7FB27-- From sjj@google.com Wed Apr 14 06:06:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386AB3A6926 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:06:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-AJB9wES-eB for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [216.239.44.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0354F3A686C for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wpaz13.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz13.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.77]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o3ED6S5i023734 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:06:28 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1271250388; bh=OaZ5TSScaNkaHk+bcK0AxRxhe9Y=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=uKBh2bnZVoeUwa48H4/egIzTCXBqRSBTzGiJg9AVoACLsQAqUa58WUq+ozKgowqBX lkgFPPVofHNmEXkg93ikQ== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=tfJwJbh5WEs64K0DgDzs6LYtpWQeah6zwh7xVARkAocIGZWQbCXVxaTIkIE2YfXfk ikHsq23qiWPM0oWmZ/dNg== Received: from bwz2 (bwz2.prod.google.com [10.188.26.2]) by wpaz13.hot.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o3ED6QGw025725 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:06:27 -0700 Received: by bwz2 with SMTP id 2so109002bwz.10 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:06:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.150.67 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:06:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9FA16888AD1BF64ABCE6C2532CCEB98A0A0785B8@xmb-sjc-219.amer.cisco.com> References: <201004091421281408197@chinamobile.com> <201004091607326563002@chinamobile.com> <92648F46-12F1-4CF8-BFD1-77E3E2DE4C15@cisco.com> <9FA16888AD1BF64ABCE6C2532CCEB98A0A0785B8@xmb-sjc-219.amer.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:06:25 +0200 Received: by 10.204.21.1 with SMTP id h1mr8390773bkb.171.1271250386125; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Sam Johnston To: "Krishna Sankar (ksankar)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555ad52af85f80484320ba1 X-System-Of-Record: true Cc: clouds@ietf.org Subject: Re: [clouds] =?gb2312?b?X1+08Li0Ol9zY29wZV9vZl90aGVfY2xvdWQ=?= X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:06:45 -0000 --00032555ad52af85f80484320ba1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 April 2010 14:53, Krishna Sankar (ksankar) wrote: > Eh ? Is there someplace a statement or an intention which says IETF will > work only on =A1=B0service like EC2=A1=B1 ? > No - my point is that the needs of enterprise technology vary (often significantly) from those of Internet-facing services. CDMI is but another example of a protocol which has a bright future in feature rich products an= d services, but which I remain unconvinced is suitable for something like Amazon S3 (where I'd prefer to see something like a "lite" version of WebDAV). Others include SAML vs OAuth, ActiveSync vs CalDAV, Exchange vs IMAP, etc. Sam *From:* clouds-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behal= f > Of *Sam Johnston > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:43 AM > *To:* Mark Webb (mwebb) > *Cc:* clouds@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [clouds] __=B4=F0=B8=B4:_scope_of_the_cloud > > > > On 13 April 2010 22:38, Mark Webb wrote: > > > > On Apr 9, 2010, at 4:46 AM, Sam Johnston wrote: > > We're also missing a way of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, > platforms, etc.) and workloads (e.g. applications, virtual machines). > > I really think this is the realm of DMTF. They have a good start with > OVF. There is more to do, (network, security and policy abstraction to na= me > a couple) but it would be good for the industry if those container issues > were mostly handled in this same place. > > > > That may be true, but what IETF is renowned for is creating relatively > tight, interoperable specifications for well defined/constrained problems= . > Others tend to want to boil oceans (e.g. OVF's normative reference to CIM= ), > which may well be necessary to solve their problems (e.g. "private" cloud= ) > but not ours (e.g. services like EC2). > > > > Sam > > > --00032555ad52af85f80484320ba1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 April 2010 14:53, Krishna Sankar (ksankar) <ksankar@cisco.com> wrote:

Eh ? = Is there someplace a statement or an intention which says IETF will work only on “service like EC2” ?

No - my point is that the needs of enterprise technolo= gy vary (often significantly) from those of Internet-facing services. CDMI = is but another example of a protocol which has a bright future in feature r= ich products and services, but which I remain unconvinced is suitable for s= omething like Amazon S3 (where I'd prefer to see something like a "= ;lite" version of WebDAV). Others include SAML vs OAuth, ActiveSync vs= CalDAV, Exchange vs IMAP, etc.

Sam

From:= clouds-bounces= @ietf.org [mailto:clouds-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sam Johnston
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:43 AM
To: Mark Webb (mwebb)
Cc: clouds@ietf= .org
Subject: Re: [clouds] __=B4= =F0=B8=B4:_scope_of_the_cloud

 

On 13 April 2010 22:38, Mark Webb <mwebb@cisco.com> wrote:

 

On Apr 9, 2010, at 4:46 AM, Sam Johnston wrote:

We're also missing a w= ay of describing containers (e.g. hypervisors, platforms, etc.) and workloads (e.g. applications, virtual machines).

I really think this is the realm of DMTF. They have = a good start with OVF. There is more to do, (network, security and policy abstract= ion to name a couple) but it would be good for the industry if those container issues were mostly handled in this same place.

 

That may be true, but what IETF is renowned for is c= reating relatively tight, interoperable specifications for well defined/constrained problems. Others tend to want to boil oceans (e.g. OVF's normative refe= rence to CIM), which may well be necessary to solve their problems (e.g. "private" cloud) but not ours (e.g. services like EC2).

 

Sam

 


--00032555ad52af85f80484320ba1-- From vumip1@gmail.com Tue Apr 27 16:54:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: clouds@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A543A6915 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:54:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.591 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.591 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.593, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMEdJeiT4WYb for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA123A68A3 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gyh4 with SMTP id 4so7074841gyh.31 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:54:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ScOwsZEE/BDaC8ZsVSRTBLpKwI+kVESJByIcKIa+Nd0=; b=Y8ZSiP/musE+bitmRYeAD7L+Veql0w9a0pOfailB/lVENZZQYzt4lbiyxrMM96aNuc fE3nsyG9IhNq+Yo2FQT0BalGO4jRzbQz/pxhh902PgBj6EMZzXqysW26Lm9r2HtQE1HT O14BDdtJQL1Rj5vFYVeWjJ8WQBS4ZGiKIFCGA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=iJJq7OD5qUqEPcTBa5LGMvsw/JgU+J0xABjKTJDpP2IBrLMHiayTuqzeNjpaA2KLS7 R41OkgXQF93aUDc98ALrVPnOnaMQBrMXoy8LsnC28OEcpiw3NenW4kuOQHWXJbdJZ//A ihZUhRak3LyWOt9EQK1JtIZDwPiMR2KbuXbzA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.93.12 with SMTP id v12mr2049599anl.12.1272412466497; Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.153.9 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:54:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: Bhumip Khasnabish To: clouds@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636ed6e0912c96e0485409dc3 Subject: [clouds] IETF-77 Clouds bar BoF mtg minutes for your review and comments, if any X-BeenThere: clouds@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Clouds pre-BOF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:54:45 -0000 --001636ed6e0912c96e0485409dc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, Below please find the IETF-77 Clouds bar BoF mtg minutes. Please let me know if you have any comments. Thanks a lot for quick response. Bhumip (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DSTART=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D A Clouds bar BoF was held during the IETF-77 on Thursday, March 25, 2010 at 11:30am. The meeting was held at Pacific B Room at the Hilton Anaheim. The bar BoF convener was Bhumip Khasnabish (vumip1@gmail.com). Bhumip started the informal discussion with a few slides with purpose to then spend the meeting having an open discussion. There were 81 attendees at the clouds bar BoF. Bhumip gave a summary of what a Cloud-based system is. He then provided slides on service over Cloud. Bhumip stated that there is no Standard Reference Framework for Cloud Services. He concluded with a suggestion to conduct a survey of Cloud-base= d systems and services and prepare a report. He noted the need to synergize activities with what are being done in other groups such as DECADE, IRTF/vnrg, NFSv4 and other groups. Finally, Bhumip stated that a mailing list for these informal discussions was created called clouds@ietf.org. After Bhumip short slides an open discussion was started so that attendees can share thoughts on such topic areas. Open Discussion: Hannes Tschofenig (Nokia Siemens): Asked those in room who of you participate in other SDOs related to clouds. Scott Brim (Cisco): DMTF Open Cloud Standards Incubator. Scott stated that DMTF is an Incubator Launched to Address Management Interoperability for Cloud Systems. Scott stated that the incubation process is designed to foster and expedite open, collaborative, exploratory technical work that complements the DMTF mission to lead the development, adoption and promotio= n of interoperable management initiatives and standards. Scott gave example of some companies that participate in DMTF: Cisco, EMC, HP, Microsoft, VMware, Novell, etc. It was also mentioned that the Clouds Security Alliance (CSA) also exist. It was stated that the mission of the CSA is to promote the use of best practices for providing security assurance within Cloud Computing, and provide education on the uses of Cloud Computing to help secure all other forms of computing. It was stated that there are many companies who participate in CSA including Cisco, Google, Verizon, HP, VMware, Microsoft, AT&T, etc. Paul Hoffman (VPN Consortium): Noted XML digital signature and encryption. IETF can bring some =93don=92t do that=94 but that doesn=92t make a good charter. Cullen Jennings (Cisco): We can mandate that they use IPv6. Monique Morrow (Cisco): Asked the question if you have dealt with any =91g= ap=92 analysis? Bhumip: IETF can define and use adaptive protocol for use between virtual and physical resources, e.g., protocol between virtual network and real-network. Spencer: When you report out, put =91gap=92 analysis in it. Spencer: if this work comes into the IETF, differences of building system and figure out what charter is for work from a =91gap=92 analysis. Hannes: Brief chat from Cullen. Do we have stake holders here? For example, VMware? Paul Hoffman: VMware, Cytrix, etc , are active in many of these things bu= t the major players haven=92t come to ask for openness. This is of concern. Paul: We may have a problem that doesn=92t need to be solved from a custom= er point of view. Dave Crocker (Brandenburg InternetWorking): There may be some problems tha= t are useful that others aren=92t doing. Make sure that there are consumers for this work. Be clear that there is some group in market that wants this work. For example, open hybrid support mechanism. Cloud-bursting=85 don= =92t know if there is a market for it but there is interest for it. Spencer: We get more comfortable with it when potential real consumers sho= w up. Cullen: Unified information group: move into clouds type environment. One topic found =96 if have elastic band to add servers. DYNDNS.. how to a= dd more servers . DNS was a topic we found lacking. Paul: We do have APIs out there. Look at API=85 Sun case =96 what are the linkages. Hardest part, if =85 immediate look at the same system it is on, should we do DHCP =96 single RFC=85 VMware is not open API, command line interface with VMware, that might do good place to do the =93gap=94 analysi= s. Carl Moberg: Look at gaps in Internet architecture. An example is to measure proximity and I am not talking about geographic proximity. Because sometimes things in clouds need low latency, low jitter, etc. Sometimes yo= u don=92t care about low latency. So you need a proximity measure tool. When wondering around in this cloud space, who is my best peer to bind to. We don=92t have good tools for that right now. Things in cloud split and coalesce and move =96 and in this case we need naming system =96 to express continuous relationship pieces of an entity for example when it splits. Need dynamic naming system. David Bryan (Cogent Force): Noted the topological order of peers =96 some coordination with the groups that deal with peer-to-peer may be useful. It spans. Spencer: Will ALTO do what you need? Carl: Not familiar with that work. Metric I was looking for is it being lightweight and get it fast. Yunfei (China Mobile): Can you explain private cloud, public cloud. Bhumip: Things are still being defined. Not defined in standards. Many people are talking about these private, public, and hybrid clouds. Yunfei: Two types of resources: physical and virtual; many of clouds deployments use virtual machine to allocate physical resources. Bhumip: A survey is being planned; virtual resources have to be mapped to physical resources, and the interfaces that expose/hide the physical resources need to be defined and standardized. Yunfei: Given so many proprietary methods on virtual machines, this may be hard. Dave Crocker: Now go back to problem statement slide that Bhumip showed. Everything is nice to list. Those are reasonable things to list. In terms of actual work, it is doesn=92t seem to go very well. I was trying to think how to get work started. Anything that attacks problem in larger will likely fail. Stop using the word cloud. It has no meaning because it has too many meanings. Clouds today use IETF technologies. They have problems in the use of that technology. IP address flux and DNS flux are examples. Finding some of these which are narrow problems and looking for ways to enhance them or to provide alternatives might be a well to get concrete work done and have significant utility to the cloud community. Doing this we can avoid pursuing gaseous topics. Paul: Follow-up on Dave Crocker. What it sounds like to me is that cloud problems that are already here don=92t need working groups as they may alre= ady have working groups. As a full virtual machine is moving around possible interface or universal interface and Mobile IP may not be the answer to tha= t problem. It may be that in fact that we may get started on some of these things by saying to these working groups =93hey we are hearing that there a= re problems with this, can you start working on this with the new assumption that these objects can move around faster than what we see in the stable world or the traditional cellular world=85.=94 That may take a little pres= sure off of us in forming a working group to cover all these things. Erik: If you fan things out to working group, then you need to understand the gap analysis first. HuiDeng: Have you looked at what OCCI is defining? Pengjin: About the problem statement, what want to do for this work, what want to define for the cloud computing? Hannes: Case is smartgrid. Lots of excitement. Plugged together in a reasonable way. What is missing is a use case description. Virtual machines that move around. Other cases that require=85. Have you looked a= t=85. Bhumip: One example is =91Infrastructure as a service.=94 Monique: look at other SDOs have definitions and operators have already started implementing them. There could be a =91gap=92 analysis. Paul: Once we start doing =91gap=92 analysis, use our IETF draft system to= do it. Paul: Haven=92t seen a =91gap=92 analysis on this topic. Bhumip: First we=92ll do the =91gap=92 analysis and then a survey on cloud services. We can look into what other SDOs we can refer to. Let us discuss these further in the next meeting during IETF-78. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEND of IETF77 C= louds bar BoF meeting minutes=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --001636ed6e0912c96e0485409dc3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
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Below please find the IETF-77 Clouds bar BoF mtg minutes.

Please let me know if you have any comments.
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Thanks a lot for quick response.
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Bhumip (Mobile:+001-781-752-8003)
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DSTART=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
A Clouds bar BoF was held during the IETF-77 on Thursday, March 25, 20= 10 at 11:30am.
The meeting was held at Pacific B Room at the Hilton Anaheim.
The bar BoF convener was Bhumip Khasnabish (vumip1@gmail.com).
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Bhumip started= the informal discussion with a few slides with purpose to then spend the m= eeting having an open discussion.=A0 There were 81 attendees at the clouds = bar BoF.

Bhumip gave a summary of what a Cloud-based system is.=A0 He then = provided slides on service over Cloud.=A0
=A0
Bhumip stated that there is no Standard Reference Framework for Cloud = Services.=A0 He concluded with a suggestion to conduct a survey of Cloud-ba= sed systems and services and prepare a report.=A0 He noted the need to syne= rgize activities with what are being done in other groups such as DECADE, I= RTF/vnrg, NFSv4 and other groups.=A0=A0=A0 Finally, Bhumip stated that a ma= iling list for these informal discussions was created called clouds@ietf.org.=A0
After Bhumip short slides an open discussion was started so that atten= dees can share thoughts on such topic areas.
=A0
Open Discussion:
= Hannes Tschofenig (Nokia Siemens):=A0=A0 Asked those in room who of you par= ticipate in other SDOs related to clouds.
=A0
Scott Brim (Cisco):=A0=A0 DMTF Open Cloud Standards Incubator.=A0 Sc= ott stated that DMTF is an Incubator Launched to Address Management Interop= erability for Cloud Systems.=A0 Scott stated that the incubation process is= designed to foster and expedite open, collaborative, exploratory technical= work that complements the DMTF mission to lead the development, adoption a= nd promotion of interoperable management initiatives and standards.=A0 Scot= t gave example of some companies that participate in DMTF:=A0=A0 Cisco, EMC= , HP, Microsoft, VMware, Novell, etc.
=A0
It was also mentioned that the Clouds Security Alliance (CSA) also e= xist.=A0 It was stated that the mission of the CSA is to promote the use of= best practices for providing security assurance within Cloud Computing, an= d provide education on the uses of Cloud Computing to help secure all other= forms of computing.=A0 It was stated that there are many companies who par= ticipate in CSA including Cisco, Google, Verizon, HP, VMware, Microsoft, AT= &T, etc.
Paul=A0 Hoffman (VPN Consortium):=A0=A0=A0 Noted XML digital signature= and encryption.=A0=A0 IETF can bring some =93don=92t
do that=94 but that doesn=92t make a good charter.
Cullen Jennings (Cisco):=A0 We can mandate that they use IPv6.
Monique Morrow (Cisco):=A0 Asked the question if you have dealt with a= ny =91gap=92 analysis?
Bhumip: IETF can define and use adaptive protocol for use between virt= ual and physical resources, e.g., protocol between virtual network and real= -network.
Spencer:=A0 When you report out, put =91gap=92 analysis in it.
Spencer:=A0 if this work comes into the IETF, differences of building = system and figure out what charter is for work from a =91gap=92 analysis.
Hannes:=A0 Brief chat from Cullen.=A0 Do we have stake holders here?= =A0 For example, VMware?
Paul Hoffman:=A0=A0 VMware, Cytrix, etc , are active in many of these = things but the major players haven=92t come to ask for openness.=A0 This is= of concern.
Paul:=A0 We may have a problem that doesn=92t need to be solved from a= customer point of view.
Dave Crocker (Brandenburg InternetWorking):=A0 There may be some probl= ems that are useful that others aren=92t doing.=A0=A0 Make sure that there = are consumers for this work.=A0 Be clear that there is some group in market= that wants this work.=A0 For example, open hybrid support mechanism.=A0 Cl= oud-bursting=85 don=92t know if there is a market for it but there is inter= est for it.
Spencer:=A0 We get more comfortable with it when potential real consum= ers show up.
Cullen:=A0=A0 Unified information group:=A0 move into clouds type envi= ronment.=A0=A0 One topic found =96 if have elastic band to add servers.=A0 = DYNDNS.. how to add more servers .=A0 DNS was a topic we found lacking.
=
Paul:=A0 We do have APIs out there.=A0 Look at API=85 Sun case =96 wha= t are the linkages.=A0 Hardest part, if =85 immediate look at the same syst= em it is on, should we do DHCP =96 single RFC=85 VMware is not open API, co= mmand line interface with VMware, that might do good place to do the =93gap= =94 analysis.
Carl Moberg:=A0 Look at gaps in Internet architecture.=A0 An example i= s to measure proximity and I am not talking about geographic proximity.=A0 = Because sometimes things in clouds need low latency, low jitter, etc.=A0 So= metimes you don=92t care about low latency.=A0 So you need a proximity meas= ure tool. When wondering around in this cloud space, who is my best peer to= bind to.=A0=A0 We don=92t have good tools for that right now.=A0=A0 Things= in cloud split and coalesce and move =96 and in this case we need naming s= ystem =96 to express continuous relationship pieces of an entity for exampl= e when it splits.=A0=A0 Need dynamic naming system.=A0
David Bryan (Cogent Force):=A0=A0 Noted the topological order of peers= =96 some coordination with the groups that deal with peer-to-peer may be u= seful.=A0 It spans.
Spencer:=A0 Will ALTO do what you need?
Carl:=A0 Not familiar with that work.=A0 Metric I was looking for is i= t being lightweight and get it fast.=A0
Yunfei (China Mobile):=A0 Can you explain private cloud, public cloud.=
Bhumip:=A0=A0 Things are still being defined.=A0 Not defined in standa= rds. Many people are talking about these private, public, and hybrid clouds= .
Yunfei:=A0=A0 Two types of resources: physical and virtual; many of cl= ouds deployments use virtual machine to allocate physical resources.
Bhumip:=A0 A survey is being planned; virtual resources have to be map= ped to physical resources, and the interfaces that expose/hide the physical= resources need to be defined and standardized.
Yunfei:=A0 Given so many proprietary methods on virtual machines, this= may be hard.
Dave Crocker:=A0=A0 Now go back to problem statement slide that Bhumip= showed.=A0 Everything is nice to list.=A0 Those are reasonable things to l= ist.=A0 In terms of actual work, it is doesn=92t seem to go very well.
I= was trying to think how to get work started.=A0 Anything that attacks prob= lem in larger will likely fail.=A0 Stop using the word cloud.=A0 It has no = meaning because it has too many meanings.=A0
Clouds today use IETF technologies.=A0 They have problems in the use of tha= t technology.=A0 IP address flux and DNS flux are examples.=A0 Finding some= of these which are narrow problems and looking for ways to enhance them or= to provide alternatives might be a well to get concrete work done and have= significant utility to the cloud community.=A0=A0=A0 Doing this we can avo= id pursuing gaseous topics.
Paul:=A0 Follow-up on Dave Crocker.=A0 What it sounds like to me is th= at cloud problems that are already here don=92t need working groups as they= may already have working groups.=A0=A0 As a full virtual machine is moving= around possible interface or universal interface and Mobile IP may not be = the answer to that problem.=A0 It may be that in fact that we may get start= ed on some of these things by saying to these working groups =93hey we are = hearing that there are problems with this, can you start working on this wi= th the new assumption that these objects can move around faster than what w= e see in the stable world or the traditional cellular world=85.=94=A0 That = may take a little pressure off of us in forming a working group to cover al= l these things.=A0
Erik:=A0 If you fan things out to working group, then you need to unde= rstand the gap analysis first.=A0
HuiDeng: Have you looked at what OCCI is defining?
Pengjin: About the problem statement, what want to do for this work, w= hat want to define for the cloud computing?
Hannes:=A0 Case is smartgrid.=A0 Lots of excitement.=A0 Plugged togeth= er in a reasonable way.=A0 What is missing is a use case description.=A0=A0= Virtual machines that move around.=A0 Other cases that require=85.=A0 Have= you looked at=85.
Bhumip:=A0 One example is =91Infrastructure as a service.=94
Monique:=A0 look at other SDOs have definitions and operators have alr= eady started implementing them.=A0 There could be a =91gap=92 analysis.
=
Paul:=A0 Once we start doing =91gap=92 analysis, use our IETF draft sy= stem to do it.
Paul:=A0 Haven=92t seen a =91gap=92 analysis on this topic.
Bhumip:=A0 First we=92ll do the =91gap=92 analysis and then a survey o= n cloud services. We can look into what other SDOs we can refer to. Let us = discuss these further in the next meeting during IETF-78.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEND of IET= F77 Clouds bar BoF meeting minutes=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


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