Subject: [core] Cross-layer issues in Constrained Node/Networks: informal get-together

From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:42:39 +0800

Our WGs (6LoWPAN/ROLL/CoRE/LWIG) are about making IP work well on
constrained node/network environments.  A number of issues in this
space are cross-layer (or at least cross-WG) in nature.  While these
are a constant topic in the hallways, maybe we can make more progress
by getting a group of people in one room.

We are going to have an informal get-together to discuss some of these
issues at

       Thu, 1740-1940, room 102

While the room maybe is not optimal for an informal discussion (and
the overlap with TLS is unfortunate for some of us), it does enable
use of the projector -- and it was available now that the LISP WG
meeting is canceled.

I'm going to try to get some structure into the discussion.
The following items have been mentioned as possible subjects (drafts
are mentioned as potential background material):

0 -- implications of 802.15.4g, 802.15.4e on 6LoWPAN
   is there anything we need to do/should be doing to make 6LoWPAN
   more useful with these new/extended link layers in the 802.15.4
   space?  Anything beyond the adaptation layer?  What about
   security/key management?
   Also: other links, e.g. 6LoWPAN for Bluetooth-Low-Energy
   draft-ietf-6lowpan-btle-03.txt
   (We had a nice lunch discussion in a small group today, so we are
   already mostly done with the basic work on this topic) e.g., what
   are the interactions of the Bluetooth security protocols/attribute
   protocol and the things we are doing on the IP side?
1 -- 6LoWPAN-GHC and its application to ROLL, SenML and other protocols
   draft-bormann-6lowpan-ghc-03.txt
   draft-goyal-6lowpan-rpl-compression-00.txt
   draft-goyal-roll-rpl-compression-00.txt
   draft-jennings-senml-07.txt
   Any other protocols that would benefit significantly from
   6LoWPAN-GHC?
2 -- Cross-Layer implications of the CoRE discovery discussion
   Discover of servers, services, and resources sometimes interacts
   with discovery of network elements like proxies, routers, networks.
   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brandt-coap-subnet-discovery-00
   Is there a useful overlap between application layer discovery and
   network layer autoconfiguration?
   Related: 6LoWPAN vs. HOMENET
   What are the implications of the HOMENET architecture document and
   technical proposals on the typical deployment of 6LoWPANs for home
   automation applications?  (Implications on discovery?)
3 -- LWIG
   draft-bormann-lwig-guidance-00.txt
   what can we do to discuss APIs in a meaningful way here?
   what else should be in this document?
4 -- extensions for industrial applications of 6LoWPAN
   draft-wang-6lowpan-scheduling-requirements-00.txt
   Are there solutions that could be implemented in 6LoWPAN that solve
   some of these requirements?
   Is it even useful to discuss industrial applications outside of the
   system standards ISA100.11a/Wireless-HART/WIA-PA (i.e., is there a
   "pure IPv6" space waiting to be explored)?
5 -- network management for constrained node/networks
   What is the best place to bring the various efforts together?
   Should we be doing the bigger picture in the IETF NMRG?

This is a lot of items, and we won't cover all of them in these two
hours, but maybe we can at least make interested people known to each
other and spin off further hallway discussions.

Maybe we can go through the items in this sequence (i.e., ≤ 10 minutes
per number) in the first hour and then revisit points that merit more
discussion.  If you want to make a more structured contribution to, or
lead, any one of these points, please tell me (and send a slide or two, 
if useful).

Gruesse, Carsten

PS.: To be redundantly clear, let me add this Disclaimer: This is not
a BOF, not even a Bar-BOF.  It is not about drumming up support for
some potential work.  Just about technical discussion.  No intent to
forcibly draw in ADs...

PPS.: I have attempted to set a reply-to to 6lowpan.  Feel free to
answer to *one* of the WGs.  Please don't spam all four.

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From: Thomas Fossati <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:44:12 +0100

Hi Carsten,

> use of the projector -- and it was available now that the LISP WG

is there any chance to get at least the audio streaming of the meeting ?

That'd be very nice to the rest of us that could not get to Taipei.

Thanks.

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From: "Angelo P. Castellani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:46:14 +0100

+1

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:44, Thomas Fossati <[email-masked]> wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>

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From: Alper Yegin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:06:01 +0200

Hi Carsten,

>   already mostly done with the basic work on this topic) e.g., what

It'd be very useful if you share findings/notes from that lunch meeting either over the ML or at the informal get-together.

Thanks.

Alper

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From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:29:42 +0800

> is there any chance to get at least the audio streaming of the meeting ?

Well, this is more of a brainstorming gathering, and I'm not sure I want to enforce religious use of the microphone.

I think the stream from room 102 should work in principle, so if you go to http://ietf82streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf825.m3u you should have a good chance of hearing faint voices arguing in the background noise.  We also can try to have a jabber monitor (probably not a "jabber scribe", though).

Grüße, Carsten

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From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:34:57 +0800

> It'd be very useful if you share findings/notes from that lunch meeting either over the ML or at the informal get-together.

We focused on actual adaptation layer issues (encapsulation), so this would be very boring.  The next version of the draft will have it.

If you are interested in the right way to do cross-layer security given the security that BTLE-style environments already have -- I'm too, let's talk.  Send in a slide or two.

(Why was this a response to core and not to 6lowpan?)

Grüße, Carsten

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From: "Angelo P. Castellani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:43:36 +0100

I will enjoy hearing to your talk and even send my comments to jabber,
if will be possible for you to use the microphone on the vast majority
of time (not always as during a formal WG meeting).

If using the microphone frequently is a problem, it would be probably
better to discuss offline the results of this informal meeting.

BTW, do you plan to circulate some notes after this informal talk?

Angelo

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From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:56:02 +0800

> We are going to have an informal get-together to discuss some of these

I have started collecting slides for this event.
We don't need slides to discuss something, but where they help, I would like to have them before the meeting.

Observe*) the current set of slides at

	http://www.tzi.org/~cabo/cross-layer.pdf

Grüße, Carsten

*) Sorry, no CoAP server there yet…  Manual repeated HTTP GET required.