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From: Somaraju Abhinav <abhinav.somaraju@tridonic.com>
To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Thread-Topic: [core] fixing YANG to CBOR
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Cc: Core <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] fixing YANG to CBOR
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+1

Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Michel Veillette<mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
Sent: =FD26/=FD07/=FD2016 05:31
To: Andy Bierman<mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: Core<mailto:core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] fixing YANG to CBOR

+1

Le 25 juil. 2016 =E0 23:20, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@yu=
maworks.com>> a =E9crit :

Hi,

I think this "union type" corner-case is not bad enough to
justify a really complicated design like tracking the order
of union type syntax changes.  We need to remove order
dependencies, not add new ones.  I should have realized
this is too complicated.

So I think the current tagging solution is good enough.
Do not change it to count and order the member type-stmts.

I will write YANG guidelines in 6087bis to attempt to prevent these
corner-cases from occurring in IETF modules.


Andy


On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz<mailto:lhot=
ka@nic.cz>> wrote:

> On 25 Jul 2016, at 22:21, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@yu=
maworks.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz<mailto:lh=
otka@nic.cz>> wrote:
>
> > On 25 Jul 2016, at 21:00, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@=
yumaworks.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz<mailto=
:lhotka@nic.cz>> wrote:
> >
> > > On 25 Jul 2016, at 18:05, Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trillian=
tinc.com<mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Lada, Hi Andy
> > >
> > > The important questions we need answer to validate the current soluti=
on are the following.
> > >
> > > - In a union, is it valid to define multiple enumerations which reuse=
 the same value(s) with a different semantic meaning?
> > > - In a union, is it valid to define multiple bits which reuse the sam=
e position(s) with a different semantic meaning?
> >
> > IMO, yes, in both cases. I am not saying that it's a good design though=
.
> >
> > >
> > > In the following examples, value or position 0 means both white and r=
ed which I believe it's invalid.
> >
> > I don't think so. The member types are checked in the same order as the=
y appear in the union's definition, and the first type for which a given va=
lue is valid is used.
> >
> >
> >
> > That's the issue here.
> > The member type value spaces are allowed to overlap each other.
> > The "first wins" depends on the value being sent.
> > The same problem exists for JSON for boolean and numeric types.
> > Only XML passes everything as a string.  YANG union was designed only t=
o work
> > robustly with XML.
>
> I believe for JSON it is perfectly robust. The general rule should be thi=
s: use whatever information you have to determine whether the received valu=
e is valid for the first member type. If not, try the second member etc.
>
>
> believe what youi want:
>
>
>    type union {
>        type string;
>        type int32;
>    }
>
> JSON produces different results than XML.
>
> If client A sets number 42 in JSON, then client B will read back string "=
42" in XML.
> If the XML client sets string "42", the JSON client will read back string=
 "42".
> This is the exact same issue facing CBOR conversion

In my view, most implementations will eventually use just one encoding, and=
 this problem won't exist for them.

XML, JSON and CBOR in reality pass different information, it is not like UT=
F-8 versus UTF-16. Restricting all alternative media types only to features=
 supported in XML doesn't make much sense.

Lada

>
>
>
> Lada
>
>
> Andy
>
> >
> >
> > > If this is the case, the currently proposed solution to tag some spec=
ific datatype (bits,  enumeration, identityref, instance-identifier) when u=
sed in a union resolve any potential ambiguities.
> >
> > Yes, I think this is a good idea because otherwise resolving the member=
 types may be difficult. Moreover, sometimes the sending side might want to=
 override the resolution algorithm - e.g., if a client wants to set a leaf =
with "inet:host" type to "1.2.3.4" and interpret it as a domain name rather=
 than IP address.
> >
> > > Can we move ahead with the current solution?
> >
> > The current solution is just as good and just as broken as the JSON sol=
ution,
> > and we already moved ahead with that in NETMOD WG. (So I guess that mea=
ns yes?)
> >
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > >
> > > ENUMERATION EXAMPLE
> > >
> > > typedef A {
> > >  type union {
> > >    type enumeration {
> > >      enum white {
> > >        value 0;
> > >      }
> > >      enum black {
> > >        value 1;
> > >      }
> > >    }
> > >    type enumeration {
> > >      enum red {
> > >        value 0;
> > >      }
> > >      enum green {
> > >        value 1;
> > >      }
> > >      enum blue {
> > >        value 2;
> > >      }
> > >    }
> > >  }
> > > }
> >
> > Values 0 and 1 are interpreted as "white" and "black", value 2 is "blue=
".
> >
> > >
> > > BITS EXAMPLE
> > >
> > > typedef B {
> > >  type union {
> > >    type bits {
> > >      bit white {
> > >        position 0;
> > >      }
> > >      bit black {
> > >        position 1;
> > >      }
> > >    }
> > >    type bits {
> > >      bit red {
> > >        position 0;
> > >      }
> > >      bit green {
> > >        position 1;
> > >      }
> > >      bit blue {
> > >        position 2;
> > >      }
> > >    }
> > >  }
> > > }
> >
> > Ditto.
> >
> > Lada
> >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Michel
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org=
>] On Behalf Of Ladislav Lhotka
> > > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 10:41 AM
> > > To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>>
> > > Cc: Core <core@ietf.org<mailto:core@ietf.org>>
> > > Subject: Re: [core] fixing YANG to CBOR
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 25 Jul 2016, at 16:21, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:an=
dy@yumaworks.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 6:00 AM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz<mail=
to:lhotka@nic.cz>> wrote:
> > >> Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>> writes:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> It seems to me that the only tagging actually needed would be to
> > >>> identify the ordered list of member types within a union type.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> typedef A {
> > >>>  type union {
> > >>>    type int32 ;   // 1
> > >>>    type string; // 2
> > >>>    type B;   // 3, 4, 5
> > >>>    type identityref { base bar; }   // 6
> > >>>  }
> > >>> }
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> typedef B {
> > >>>  type union {
> > >>>    type uint8;
> > >>>    type uint16;
> > >>>    type uint32;
> > >>>  }
> > >>> }
> > >>>
> > >>> leaf foo { type A; }
> > >>>
> > >>> YANG allows the member types to be reordered if it does not change
> > >>> the value set accepted by the type.  It is not clear
> > >>
> > >> I don't think this is true. The only statement in 6020bis that is
> > >> related to this issue is the bullet that you cite below, but IMO
> > >> reordering member types in a union type definition may change the ty=
pe
> > >> semantics because the receiving side resolves the type according to
> > >> the order of member types.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> This depends on the format, but non-overlapping member types can
> > >> change position without changing syntax or semantics.
> > >
> > > Yes, but, for instance, the "inet:host" type in RFC 6991 has overlapp=
ing members: "1.2.3.4" is valid as both "inet:ip-address" and "inet:domain-=
name".
> > >
> > > Lada
> > >
> > >> The exact member type that matches is not important.
> > >>
> > >>   typedef foo1 {
> > >>      type union {
> > >>         type int32 { range "1..10"; }
> > >>         type int32 { range "11..20"; }
> > >>      }
> > >>    }
> > >>
> > >>  typedef foo2 {
> > >>      type union {
> > >>         type int32 { range "11..20"; }
> > >>         type int32 { range "1..10"; }
> > >>      }
> > >>    }
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Lada
> > >>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> if new member types can be added in new module revisions.
> > >>>
> > >>> If new member types are allowed in typedef B, then the relative
> > >>> position of (6) can change, even if typedef A does not change.
> > >>> YANG does not explicitly state if this is allowed or not.
> > >>>
> > >>> bits and enumerations can be expanded in new revisions, which
> > >>> changes the value set, but existing value and position numbers are
> > >>> not allowed to change.
> > >>>
> > >>> The problematic text is in 6020bis, sec 11
> > >>>
> > >>>  o  A "type" statement may be replaced with another "type" statemen=
t
> > >>>      that does not change the syntax or semantics of the type.  For
> > >>>      example, an inline type definition may be replaced with a type=
def,
> > >>>      but an int8 type cannot be replaced by an int16, since the syn=
tax
> > >>>      would change.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> In practice reordering member types would be very rare, but the SID
> > >>> numbering would need to remember the member type order for each lea=
f
> > >>> or leaf-list that resolves to a union type.
> > >>>
> > >>> It doesn't help to tag any other type besides union.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Andy
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> core mailing list
> > >>> core@ietf.org<mailto:core@ietf.org>
> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
> > >> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
> > > PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > core mailing list
> > > core@ietf.org<mailto:core@ietf.org>
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
> >
> > --
> > Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
> > PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
>
> --
> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C





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<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; font-weight:=
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</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt"><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com">Michel Veillette</a></span>=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; font-weight:=
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</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt">=FD26=
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<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; font-weight:=
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</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt"><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">Andy Bierman</a></span><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; font-weight:=
bold">Cc:
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt"><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">Core</a></span><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; font-weight:=
bold">Subject:
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt">Re: [=
core] fixing YANG to CBOR</span><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>&#43;1</div>
<div><br>
Le 25 juil. 2016 =E0 23:20, Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumawor=
ks.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; a =E9crit&nbsp;:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think this &quot;union type&quot; corner-case is not bad enough to</=
div>
<div>justify a really complicated design like tracking the order</div>
<div>of union type syntax changes.&nbsp; We need to remove order</div>
<div>dependencies, not add new ones.&nbsp; I should have realized</div>
<div>this is too complicated.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So I think the current tagging solution is good enough.</div>
<div>Do not change it to count and order the member type-stmts.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I will write YANG guidelines in 6087bis to attempt to prevent these</d=
iv>
<div>corner-cases from occurring in IETF modules.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Andy</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Ladislav Lhotka=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lhotka@nic.cz" target=3D"_blank">lhotka@nic.cz</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; On 25 Jul 2016, at 22:21, Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yuma=
works.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Ladislav Lhotka &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:lhotka@nic.cz">lhotka@nic.cz</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On 25 Jul 2016, at 21:00, Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy=
@yumaworks.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Ladislav Lhotka &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:lhotka@nic.cz">lhotka@nic.cz</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On 25 Jul 2016, at 18:05, Michel Veillette &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com">Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Lada, Hi Andy<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The important questions we need answer to validate the curre=
nt solution are the following.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; - In a union, is it valid to define multiple enumerations wh=
ich reuse the same value(s) with a different semantic meaning?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; - In a union, is it valid to define multiple bits which reus=
e the same position(s) with a different semantic meaning?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; IMO, yes, in both cases. I am not saying that it's a good design =
though.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; In the following examples, value or position 0 means both wh=
ite and red which I believe it's invalid.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I don't think so. The member types are checked in the same order =
as they appear in the union's definition, and the first type for which a gi=
ven value is valid is used.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; That's the issue here.<br>
&gt; &gt; The member type value spaces are allowed to overlap each other.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; The &quot;first wins&quot; depends on the value being sent.<br>
&gt; &gt; The same problem exists for JSON for boolean and numeric types.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; Only XML passes everything as a string.&nbsp; YANG union was desi=
gned only to work<br>
&gt; &gt; robustly with XML.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I believe for JSON it is perfectly robust. The general rule should be =
this: use whatever information you have to determine whether the received v=
alue is valid for the first member type. If not, try the second member etc.=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; believe what youi want:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type union {<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type string;<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type int32;<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; JSON produces different results than XML.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If client A sets number 42 in JSON, then client B will read back strin=
g &quot;42&quot; in XML.<br>
&gt; If the XML client sets string &quot;42&quot;, the JSON client will rea=
d back string &quot;42&quot;.<br>
&gt; This is the exact same issue facing CBOR conversion<br>
<br>
In my view, most implementations will eventually use just one encoding, and=
 this problem won't exist for them.<br>
<br>
XML, JSON and CBOR in reality pass different information, it is not like UT=
F-8 versus UTF-16. Restricting all alternative media types only to features=
 supported in XML doesn't make much sense.<br>
<br>
Lada<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Lada<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Andy<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; If this is the case, the currently proposed solution to tag =
some specific datatype (bits,&nbsp; enumeration, identityref, instance-iden=
tifier) when used in a union resolve any potential ambiguities.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Yes, I think this is a good idea because otherwise resolving the =
member types may be difficult. Moreover, sometimes the sending side might w=
ant to override the resolution algorithm - e.g., if a client wants to set a=
 leaf with &quot;inet:host&quot; type to &quot;1.2.3.4&quot;
 and interpret it as a domain name rather than IP address.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Can we move ahead with the current solution?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The current solution is just as good and just as broken as the JS=
ON solution,<br>
&gt; &gt; and we already moved ahead with that in NETMOD WG. (So I guess th=
at means yes?)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Andy<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; ENUMERATION EXAMPLE<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; typedef A {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; type union {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type enumeration {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; enum white {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; value 0;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; enum black {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; value 1;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type enumeration {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; enum red {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; value 0;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; enum green {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; value 1;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; enum blue {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; value 2;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; }<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Values 0 and 1 are interpreted as &quot;white&quot; and &quot;bla=
ck&quot;, value 2 is &quot;blue&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; BITS EXAMPLE<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; typedef B {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; type union {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type bits {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; bit white {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; position 0;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; bit black {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; position 1;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type bits {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; bit red {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; position 0;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; bit green {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; position 1;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; bit blue {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; position 2;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; }<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Ditto.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Lada<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Michel<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: core [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org">=
core-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ladislav Lhotka<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 10:41 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">a=
ndy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Core &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [core] fixing YANG to CBOR<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; On 25 Jul 2016, at 16:21, Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:andy@yumaworks.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 6:00 AM, Ladislav Lhotka &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lhotka@nic.cz">lhotka@nic.cz</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">a=
ndy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; writes:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; It seems to me that the only tagging actually needed=
 would be to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; identify the ordered list of member types within a u=
nion type.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; typedef A {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; type union {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type int32 ;&nbsp; &nbsp;// 1<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type string; // 2<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type B;&nbsp; &nbsp;// 3, 4, 5<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type identityref { base bar; }&nbsp; &n=
bsp;// 6<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; typedef B {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; type union {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type uint8;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type uint16;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; type uint32;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; leaf foo { type A; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; YANG allows the member types to be reordered if it d=
oes not change<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the value set accepted by the type.&nbsp; It is not =
clear<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; I don't think this is true. The only statement in 6020bi=
s that is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; related to this issue is the bullet that you cite below,=
 but IMO<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; reordering member types in a union type definition may c=
hange the type<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; semantics because the receiving side resolves the type a=
ccording to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; the order of member types.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; This depends on the format, but non-overlapping member t=
ypes can<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; change position without changing syntax or semantics.<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, but, for instance, the &quot;inet:host&quot; type in RF=
C 6991 has overlapping members: &quot;1.2.3.4&quot; is valid as both &quot;=
inet:ip-address&quot; and &quot;inet:domain-name&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Lada<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; The exact member type that matches is not important.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;typedef foo1 {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type union {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;type int32 { range &quo=
t;1..10&quot;; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;type int32 { range &quo=
t;11..20&quot;; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; typedef foo2 {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; type union {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;type int32 { range &quo=
t;11..20&quot;; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;type int32 { range &quo=
t;1..10&quot;; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Lada<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Andy<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; if new member types can be added in new module revis=
ions.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; If new member types are allowed in typedef B, then t=
he relative<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; position of (6) can change, even if typedef A does n=
ot change.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; YANG does not explicitly state if this is allowed or=
 not.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; bits and enumerations can be expanded in new revisio=
ns, which<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; changes the value set, but existing value and positi=
on numbers are<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; not allowed to change.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; The problematic text is in 6020bis, sec 11<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; o&nbsp; A &quot;type&quot; statement may be re=
placed with another &quot;type&quot; statement<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that does not change the syntax =
or semantics of the type.&nbsp; For<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; example, an inline type definiti=
on may be replaced with a typedef,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; but an int8 type cannot be repla=
ced by an int16, since the syntax<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; would change.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; In practice reordering member types would be very ra=
re, but the SID<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; numbering would need to remember the member type ord=
er for each leaf<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; or leaf-list that resolves to a union type.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; It doesn't help to tag any other type besides union.=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Andy<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; core mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cor=
e" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; core mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs<br>
&gt; &gt; PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs<br>
&gt; PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C<br>
<br>
--<br>
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs<br>
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <draft-hartke-core-e2e-security-reqs@tools.ietf.org>, <core@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2016 15:00:40 -0700
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Subject: [core] Review of draft-hartke-core-e2e-security-reqs-01
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Before anything else, let me re-iterate what I said at the F2F meeting.
This document is so much clearer and easier to read than was the -00 version
that it does not even appear to be the same document.   I want to really
thank you for the work you did in re-writing it.

 

That being said, I still do have some comments on draft that I would like to
you consider.

 

Jim

 

 

1.  Note that the title of the COSE document has changed you should pick
that up.

 

2. Section 2.1.1 - Should "client receives a response" include 

    * (Threat ?) The proxy returns a stale or outdated response based on
data it previously obtained from the origin server or some fourth party.

               I'm thinking of both out of date caches and poisoned caches.
Note that these are valid from a security point of view, but not 'fresh'

 

3.  Section 2.1.1.3 - based on a brief look at mattsson-core-coap-actuators,
it appears to have some solutions to the Withholding attack as well as the
Delaying attack.  This should probably be noted.

 

4.  Section 2.1.1.5 - It is not clear to me that there is a requirement that
all messages be protected from eavesdropping.  It might just be the way
things are stated here, but there is a difference between the fact that the
solution must provide a method to deal with this and the fact that integrity
protection might be sufficient in some cases.  This would also influence the
analysis below in some cases.

 

5.  Section 2.1.1.5 - You need to have a better statement of what it means
to provide forward secrecy.  This requirement would appear to potentially
rule out the use of the same session content encryption key for multiple
messages.  I do not believe that is true, but given that we are looking a
message based security some people might think this is the case.  I would
expand this statement to define the conditions under which PFS must be
provided.

 

6. Section 2.1.2 - Do you consider a proxy re-ordering requests to be a
threat?

 

7.  Section 2.1.2.1 - Next to last para.  I am not sure that 'involve' is
the correct word in this sentence.  Perhaps you meant 'include'

 

8.  Section 3 - when I look at figure 10, I keep feeling that it is not a
complete picture of what you need to be looking at 

 

 

                   Security Assn         Security Assn

               +-----------------+     +---------------+

               |                 |     |               |

           ____________        __________         ___________

           |            |      |          |       |           |

           |            |----->|          |<------|           |

           | Subscriber |      |  Broker  |       | Publisher |

           |            |<-----|          |------>|           |

           |____________|      |__________|       |___________|

                 :                                      :

                 '--------------------------------------'

                           Security Association

 

There needs to be a discussion of all of the different potential security
associations in this diagram.  Some of these can be reduced to simple
client-server associations, but some of the implications of this diagram are
potentially used for the entirety of the picture.

 

Examples of things that can be looked at:

a)      The broker is the one that will do enforcement of access control.
If this is not true then all subscription requests would really need to be
passed onto the publisher to ensure that the subscriber is to have access.
And we now have  new thread of the broker granting access to a subscription
stream when it should not.

b)     The broker may validate that messages from the publisher are in fact
from the publisher, but be unable to look at the content of the message.

c)      The broker may need to have some details of the SA between the
subscriber and the publisher.   For example, what happens if the key used to
encrypt/protect the message gets updated or if the publisher is generating
the same stream but using two different group keys.  In the first, is this
an issue for the client or for the broker.  In the second case there are
effectively two different streams with the same name that need to be
identified by the broker and the correct responses sent to the client.

 

These are examples of what I meant in the F2F when I said that you have a
semi-trusted broker.  It is trusted with information about the subscription
stream and allowed to enforce it.  But it is not allowed to have access to
the actual content of the stream.

 

9.  Threats in section 3 also include 

  * out of order delivery of items.   

  * Issues about a broker either granting or denying access to a stream.

  * Subscriber does not receive a response because the broker pre-maturely
unsubscribes the subscriber

 

 

 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Before anything else, let me re-iterate what I said =
at the F2F meeting.&nbsp; This document is so much clearer and easier to =
read than was the -00 version that it does not even appear to be the =
same document.&nbsp;&nbsp; I want to really thank you for the work you =
did in re-writing it.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>That =
being said, I still do have some comments on draft that I would like to =
you consider.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Jim<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>1.&nbsp; Note that the title of the COSE document =
has changed you should pick that up.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>2. =
Section 2.1.1 - Should &quot;client receives a response&quot; include =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;* (Threat =
?) The proxy returns a stale or outdated response based on data it =
previously obtained from the origin server or some fourth =
party.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm thinking of both out of date caches =
and poisoned caches.&nbsp; Note that these are valid from a security =
point of view, but not 'fresh'<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>3.&nbsp; Section 2.1.1.3 - based on a brief look at =
mattsson-core-coap-actuators, it appears to have some solutions to the =
Withholding attack as well as the Delaying attack.&nbsp; This should =
probably be noted.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>4.&nbsp; Section 2.1.1.5 - It is not clear to me =
that there is a requirement that all messages be protected from =
eavesdropping.&nbsp; It might just be the way things are stated here, =
but there is a difference between the fact that the solution must =
provide a method to deal with this and the fact that integrity =
protection might be sufficient in some cases.&nbsp; This would also =
influence the analysis below in some cases.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>5.&nbsp; Section 2.1.1.5 - You need to have a =
better statement of what it means to provide forward secrecy.&nbsp; This =
requirement would appear to potentially rule out the use of the same =
session content encryption key for multiple messages.&nbsp; I do not =
believe that is true, but given that we are looking a message based =
security some people might think this is the case.&nbsp; I would expand =
this statement to define the conditions under which PFS must be =
provided.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>6. Section 2.1.2 - Do you consider a proxy =
re-ordering requests to be a threat?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>7.&nbsp; Section 2.1.2.1 - Next to last para.&nbsp; =
I am not sure that 'involve' is the correct word in this sentence.&nbsp; =
Perhaps you meant 'include'<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>8.&nbsp; Section 3 - when I look at figure 10, I =
keep feeling that it is not a complete picture of what you need to be =
looking at <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Security =
Assn&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Security =
Assn<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;+-----------------+&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+---------------+<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
____________&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
__________&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
___________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|-----&gt;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&lt;------|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Subscriber |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Broker&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Publisher =
|<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&lt;-----|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|------&gt;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|____________|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|__________|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|___________|<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; :<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
'--------------------------------------'<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Security Association<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>There needs to be =
a discussion of all of the different potential security associations in =
this diagram.&nbsp; Some of these can be reduced to simple client-server =
associations, but some of the implications of this diagram are =
potentially used for the entirety of the picture.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Examples of =
things that can be looked at:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>The broker is the one that will do enforcement =
of access control.&nbsp; If this is not true then all subscription =
requests would really need to be passed onto the publisher to ensure =
that the subscriber is to have access.&nbsp; And we now have&nbsp; new =
thread of the broker granting access to a subscription stream when it =
should not.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>The broker may validate that messages from the =
publisher are in fact from the publisher, but be unable to look at the =
content of the message.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>c)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>The broker may need to have some details of the =
SA between the subscriber and the publisher.&nbsp; &nbsp;For example, =
what happens if the key used to encrypt/protect the message gets updated =
or if the publisher is generating the same stream but using two =
different group keys.&nbsp; In the first, is this an issue for the =
client or for the broker.&nbsp; In the second case there are effectively =
two different streams with the same name that need to be identified by =
the broker and the correct responses sent to the =
client.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>These are examples of what I meant in the F2F when I =
said that you have a semi-trusted broker.&nbsp; It is trusted with =
information about the subscription stream and allowed to enforce =
it.&nbsp; But it is not allowed to have access to the actual content of =
the stream.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>9.&nbsp; Threats in section 3 also include =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;* out of order delivery =
of items.&nbsp; &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;* =
Issues about a broker either granting or denying access to a =
stream.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; * Subscriber does not =
receive a response because the broker pre-maturely unsubscribes the =
subscriber<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Subject: [core] My notes about draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-05
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Hi all,

I read through draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-05 and have a few questions.=


The document makes sense to me. I do, however, wonder whether you could
compare the described functionality with the LWM2M queue mode. There
appear to be lots of similarities but the "caching" concept in LWM2M is
better worked out.

I am not sure whether the brokerless scenario makes sense given the
described usage environment with sleepy nodes.

Ciao
Hannes



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Subject: [core] My Notes about draft-ietf-core-interfaces-05
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Hi all,

I read through draft-ietf-core-interfaces-05 and I have a few questions.

I understand the functionality and the desire to standardize interfaces
since the CoRE Link Format only introduces the concepts but leaves the
details (i.e., the value for the if parameter) unspecified.

1) Who came up with these terms?

Here, for example, is the definition of the 'collection':

"A Collection is a resource which represents one or more related
resources. Within this document, a collection refers to a collection
with characteristics defined in this document."

My understanding of the collection function is that of a view in an SQL
database. Is this correct?

The definition of function set, interface, and other terms also appears
to be somewhat unusual. Isn't there something we could re-use from the
Web context?

2) Is this document only applicable to CoAP or also to HTTP? In general,
I get worried when functionality is only defined for use with CoAP and
is not usable with HTTP, and HTTP/2.

3) Is it possible to include some practical examples? The document
currently includes a number of examples but those are abstract.

4) I am curious why SenML was selected. I have been trying to understand
the relationship with LWM2M and LWM2M, for example, does not use SenML.
SenML feels like a somewhat heavy format since it includes meta-data
that most applications don't need.

5) For most functionality no use cases are presented. The exception is
the collection where a use case is presented in Section 4.2. I am,
however, not sure that the 'Gradual Reveal' functionality is really
useful as such.

6) Who is using the functionality described in this document? The
editor's note talks about alignment with OCF. Since I am not familiar
with the functionality standardized by the OCF I cannot say how much
different this document is from the OCF-defined features.

7) The structure of the document is not well-balance. For example,
Section 3 consists of one sentence. The content of Section 5.8 is
meaningless and Section 6.3 "Versioning" is difficult to understand. The
security consideration section as well as the IANA consideration section
is at best incomplete. Appendix A contains no textual description of
what is shown in the tables.

7) Who is the editor of this document?

Ciao
Hannes


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Subject: [core] Review of draft-ietf-oauth-amr-values-01
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Hi Mike, Phil, Tony,

I have read through draft-ietf-oauth-amr-values-01. My earlier comments
have been addressed.

As a shepherd I nevertheless have a few questions/remarks:

1) The term 'multiple-channel authentication' is unfamiliar to me.
Could you give me an example or a reference to a specification?

2) PIN: The use of RFC 2119 language appears to be inappropriate.

3) Could you explain me what 'risk-based authentication' is? While you
provided a reference

4) Could we generalize the term 'wia' to operating systems other than
Windows as well?

5) I am not sure whether all normative references indeed need to be
declared as such.
For example, 'otp' is defined in a very generic fashion but you list
HTOP, and TOTP as normative references.
I would rather see HTOP and TOTP as a standardized examples of
one-time-passwords. IMHO the story would be different if you indeed want
to differentiate between the different technical mechanisms itself. This
is a reasonable approach as well if the security differences between the
mechanisms is important for the given application.

Ciao
Hannes





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Hi Jim,

thanks a lot for your review. Comments inline below.

Klaus


Jim Schaad wrote:
> 1.  Note that the title of the COSE document has changed you should pick
> that up.

Fixed.

> 2. Section 2.1.1 - Should "client receives a response" include
>
>     * (Threat ?) The proxy returns a stale or outdated response based on
> data it previously obtained from the origin server or some fourth party.
>
>                I'm thinking of both out of date caches and poisoned caches.
> Note that these are valid from a security point of view, but not 'fresh'

This is a part of (Threat 1:) The proxy spoofs a response.

In the mitigation section (2.1.1.1.) we define that a response is
valid from a security point of view only if it is fresh.

(We use the term "authentic" instead of "valid" though, because
"valid" is already used in the context of cache validation.)

I've expanded the text with your suggestion:

      *  (Threat 1:) The proxy spoofs a response.  For example, the
         proxy could return a stale or outdated response based on data
         it previously obtained from the server or some fourth party, or
         could craft an illicit response itself.

> 3.  Section 2.1.1.3 - based on a brief look at mattsson-core-coap-actuators,
> it appears to have some solutions to the Withholding attack as well as the
> Delaying attack.  This should probably be noted.

I've opened an issue on GitHub for this:

https://github.com/ektrah/coap-object-security/issues/5

> 4.  Section 2.1.1.5 - It is not clear to me that there is a requirement that
> all messages be protected from eavesdropping.  It might just be the way
> things are stated here, but there is a difference between the fact that the
> solution must provide a method to deal with this and the fact that integrity
> protection might be sufficient in some cases.  This would also influence the
> analysis below in some cases.

Currently the text is written with the assumption that it is a
requirement that all messages are protected from eavesdropping.

However, as Carsten mentioned at the F2F meeting, there may indeed be
use cases where it's desirable that the proxy can eavesdrop on the
messages.

We will clarify this in the draft.

https://github.com/ektrah/coap-object-security/issues/6

> 5.  Section 2.1.1.5 - You need to have a better statement of what it means
> to provide forward secrecy.  This requirement would appear to potentially
> rule out the use of the same session content encryption key for multiple
> messages.  I do not believe that is true, but given that we are looking a
> message based security some people might think this is the case.  I would
> expand this statement to define the conditions under which PFS must be
> provided.

https://github.com/ektrah/coap-object-security/issues/7

> 6. Section 2.1.2 - Do you consider a proxy re-ordering requests to be a
> threat?

No. If a client wants to ensure that a request is processed after
another request, it needs to wait for the response to the first
request before it makes the second request.

> 7.  Section 2.1.2.1 - Next to last para.  I am not sure that 'involve' is
> the correct word in this sentence.  Perhaps you meant 'include'

Fixed.

> 8.  Section 3 - when I look at figure 10, I keep feeling that it is not a
> complete picture of what you need to be looking at
> [...]
>
> There needs to be a discussion of all of the different potential security
> associations in this diagram.  Some of these can be reduced to simple
> client-server associations, but some of the implications of this diagram are
> potentially used for the entirety of the picture.
> [...]

https://github.com/ektrah/coap-object-security/issues/8

> 9.  Threats in section 3 also include
>
>   * out of order delivery of items.
>
>   * Issues about a broker either granting or denying access to a stream.
>
>   * Subscriber does not receive a response because the broker pre-maturely
> unsubscribes the subscriber

https://github.com/ektrah/coap-object-security/issues/9


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From: "Kovatsch, Matthias" <matthias.kovatsch@siemens.com>
To: "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: 1st International Workshop on Semantic Interoperability for the IoT (SIFI)
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Subject: [core] 1st International Workshop on Semantic Interoperability for the IoT (SIFI)
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Dear all

We are trying to get an academic community together that is interested in t=
he sweetspot between semantics and practical IoT applications! This is dire=
ctly related to the work in the WoT IG and the IRTF T2TRG. The workshop wil=
l be co-located with the 6th International Conference on the Internet of Th=
ings (IoT 2016) will take place November 7-9, 2016 in Stuttgart, Germany.

http://sifi-workshop.github.io/

## Call for Papers

The International Workshop on Semantic Interoperability for the IoT (SIFI) =
targets authors from the Semantic Web and the Internet of Things (IoT) appl=
ication layer to form a community that explores machine-understandable info=
rmation and interaction models for Thing-to-Thing communication. While the =
IoT promises products and higher-value services based on the widespread and=
 integrated use of connected devices, we are currently witnessing applicati=
on silos with custom interfaces, heterogeneous network communication mechan=
isms, and individual data models. The workshop aims to overcome scenario-dr=
iven, not reusable, isolated islands of solutions, so that everyday objects=
 are not only network-enabled, but can finally participate in integrated sc=
enarios. The challenges include:

* __Connectivity and Integration:__ There is a heterogeneous landscape of b=
oth wired and wireless communication standards to fulfill different applica=
tion requirements. Manual integration via gateways increases the implementa=
tion effort and the complexity of the solutions.
* __Information Models:__ Each application usually comes with its own data =
model, although the information about the physical world is relevant even a=
cross application domains. The IoT requires shared formats and models so th=
at information can be understood and interpreted by all applications.
* __Security and Privacy:__ Each IoT platform typically comes with its own =
security mechanisms and policies. To make use of a common information model=
 and interact with integrated IoT devices, these must be declared in a mach=
ine-understandable manner.
* __Flexibility and Scalability:__ IT systems have usually been developed a=
nd deploying with only the current or immediate future needs in mind. IoT s=
ystems need to be able to handle change and evolve with their environment, =
in particular when being part of long-lived infrastructure.
* __Monitoring and Analysis:__ IoT systems will produce a huge stream of qu=
asi real-time data. This requires innovative ways to analyze and assess inf=
ormation to notify users in time or even to act autonomously.

The first SIFI workshop primarily seeks position papers to gather researche=
rs who want to follow a practical approach of Semantic Web technology or wh=
o want to enrich their IoT applications, protocols, and security profiles w=
ith semantic information. Promising concepts and solutions may be pursued f=
urther within the IRTF [Thing-to-Thing Research Group](https://github.com/t=
2trg/) and the W3C [Web of Things Interest Group](https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG=
/).

## Important Dates

* __Paper submission deadline:__ September 19, 2016
* __Notification of acceptance:__ October 10, 2016
* __Camera-ready papers due:__ October 24, 2016
* __Workshop date:__ t.b.d. (November 7-9, 2016)

## Submissions

* __Position paper (preferred):__ 1-4 ACM conference format pages
* __Full paper (limited slots):__ 6-8 ACM conference format pages

Both types of research paper must be original prior unpublished work and no=
t under review elsewhere as they will be published to the ACM digital libra=
ry and listed on DBLP. All submissions will be peer-reviewed and selected b=
ased on their originality, merit, and relevance to the workshop. Submission=
 requires at least one author to present the paper on-site. If you can, we =
encourage authors of accepted papers to bring a prototype and demonstrate i=
t at the workshop, as part of an open demonstration session.

## Organizers

* Matthias Kovatsch - Siemens AG and ETH Zurich, DE/CH
* Maria Maleshkova - KIT, DE
* Michael Mrissa - Universit=E9 de Pau, FR


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Klaus Hartke [mailto:hartke@tzi.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 8:23 AM
> To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
> Cc: draft-hartke-core-e2e-security-reqs@tools.ietf.org; core@ietf.org =
WG
> <core@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [core] Review of draft-hartke-core-e2e-security-reqs-01
>=20
> Hi Jim,
>=20
> thanks a lot for your review. Comments inline below.
>=20
> Klaus
>=20
>=20
> Jim Schaad wrote:
>=20
> > 2. Section 2.1.1 - Should "client receives a response" include
> >
> >     * (Threat ?) The proxy returns a stale or outdated response =
based
> > on data it previously obtained from the origin server or some fourth =
party.
> >
> >                I'm thinking of both out of date caches and poisoned =
caches.
> > Note that these are valid from a security point of view, but not =
'fresh'
>=20
> This is a part of (Threat 1:) The proxy spoofs a response.
>=20
> In the mitigation section (2.1.1.1.) we define that a response is =
valid from a
> security point of view only if it is fresh.
>=20
> (We use the term "authentic" instead of "valid" though, because =
"valid" is
> already used in the context of cache validation.)
>=20
> I've expanded the text with your suggestion:
>=20
>       *  (Threat 1:) The proxy spoofs a response.  For example, the
>          proxy could return a stale or outdated response based on data
>          it previously obtained from the server or some fourth party, =
or
>          could craft an illicit response itself.
>=20

My problem with this is that I view a spoof as different.  To me a spoof =
implies the attempt to create a new message that will pass muster as =
oppose to doing something like a replay.  It would probably be better to =
use a different term.  I'll try and remember to ponder on this.

Jim



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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: rt and if registry question
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Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 20:40:10 +0000
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Subject: [core] rt and if registry question
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In some conversations I've been in, I've found that different people read R=
FC 6690 different ways.

Section 3.1 says:

   The Resource Type 'rt' attribute is an opaque string used to assign

   an application-specific semantic type to a resource.  One can think

   of this as a noun describing the resource.  In the case of a

   temperature resource, this could be, e.g., an application-specific

   semantic type like "outdoor-temperature" or a URI referencing a

   specific concept in an ontology like

   "http://sweet.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature".  Multiple

   Resource Types MAY be included in the value of this parameter, each

   separated by a space, similar to the relation attribute.  The

   registry for Resource Type values is defined in Section 7.4<https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc6690#section-7.4>.

Section 3.2 is similar for 'if' values.

And section 7.4 says:

   For both sub-registries, values starting with the characters "core"

   are registered using the IETF Review registration policy [RFC5226<https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226>].

   All other values are registered using the Specification Required

   policy, which requires review by a designated expert appointed by the

   IESG or their delegate.
...
   o  URIs are reserved for free use as extension values for these
      attributes and MUST NOT be registered.

So the question is, what values can be used _without_ registering.  Clearly=
 the last sentence above
says URIs are allowed.   But it's apparently ambiguous whether other values=
 like "outdoor-temperature"
in 3.1 (or "x.outdoor-temperature" or similar variations) can be used by an=
 application without registering it.
My reading of 3.1 is that registration is required for everything but URIs,=
 but others read section 3.1 differently.
Can the WG clarify what the intent is?

Thanks,
Dave

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In some conversations I&#8217;ve been in, I&#8217;ve=
 found that different people read RFC 6690 different ways.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 3.1 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
Resource Type 'rt' attribute is an opaque string used to assign<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; an a=
pplication-specific semantic type to a resource.&nbsp; One can think<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; of t=
his as a noun describing the resource.&nbsp; In the case of a<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; temp=
erature resource, this could be, e.g., an application-specific<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; sema=
ntic type like &quot;outdoor-temperature&quot; or a URI referencing a<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; spec=
ific concept in an ontology like<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; &quo=
t;<a href=3D"http://sweet.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature">http://swe=
et.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature</a>&quot;.&nbsp; Multiple<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; Reso=
urce Types MAY be included in the value of this parameter, each<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; sepa=
rated by a space, similar to the relation attribute.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; regi=
stry for Resource Type values is defined in <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc6690#section-7.4">Section 7.4</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 3.2 is similar for &#8216;if&#8217; values.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And section 7.4 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; For =
both sub-registries, values starting with the characters &quot;core&quot;<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; are =
registered using the IETF Review registration policy [<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc5226" title=3D"&quot;Guidelines for Writing an IANA Co=
nsiderations Section in RFCs&quot;">RFC5226</a>].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; All =
other values are registered using the Specification Required<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; poli=
cy, which requires review by a designated expert appointed by the<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; IESG=
 or their delegate.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; o&nbsp; URIs are reserved for free use as extension values for these<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; attributes and =
MUST NOT be registered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">So the =
question is, what values can be used _<i>without</i>_ registering.&nbsp; Cl=
early the last sentence above<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">says UR=
Is are allowed.&nbsp;&nbsp; But it&#8217;s apparently ambiguous whether oth=
er values like &#8220;outdoor-temperature&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">in 3.1 =
(or &#8220;x.outdoor-temperature&#8221; or similar variations) can be used =
by an application without registering it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">My read=
ing of 3.1 is that registration is required for everything but URIs, but ot=
hers read section 3.1 differently.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Can the=
 WG clarify what the intent is?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Thanks,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Dave</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: <draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub@ietf.org>, <core@ietf.org>
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Subject: [core] Review of draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-05
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I have a hard time saying that this is ready to be published, but that is in
part because I think that the security aspects that are not being addressed
in the document are important.


Section 3.2 - The phrase "and potentially buffer messages" is causing me
problems.  By definition it must buffer the last data value that it
includes.  It would be good at this point to explain exactly why it is
buffering messages here.  I assume that you are talking about the flow
control issues that are discussed later but I don't know this.

Section 4.2 - What is the behavior of Max-Age for sub-topics?  Is the topic
deleted only if it has no current sub-topics?  Publish rates of the topic
and sub-topic may not be the same.

Section 4.2 - How does a topic creator control who can a) publish to the
topic, b) create sub-topics, c) subscribe to the topic.  Based on how things
are laid out I make the assumption that the broker is the entity that would
enforce these rules.

Section 4.3 - As we go forward into the world of having secure items, the
rule on only publishing a fixed content type means that there will be no way
for a broker to create other content types without losing the authentication
source of a signature by the publisher on the content.  It would be nice if
it were possible to publish multiple content types at one point.   I guess
one method might be to look at a content type that would be list of contents
w/ different content types but then the discovery method becomes odd.  Also
create would need to be modified to deal with the situation as well.

Section 4.7 - The following language is driving me crazy.  "A CoAP pubsub
Client wishing to remove a topic MAY use the CoAP Delete operation".   If
you are going to say that it may do X, then you need to also say that what
other things it could do to remove it.  I think you should just remove the
MAY here (and in similar places) and just say "to remove a topic uses the
CoAP Delete operation".

Section 7 - Should there be advice on how to distinguish between a new
publish and a re-publish because a response was not received?

Section 8 - DTLS will not provide authentication if there is a proxy in the
way between the client and the broker that terminates the DTLS session.
(The whole hop authentication vs end-to-end.)

Section 8 - the last paragraph is giving me a problem.  It appears to say
that if the broker is not trusted hen it would have a problem doing the
correct forwarding to subscribers since it would be unable to read the CoAP
headers.  Is that correct?

Confirmation of messages.  The system seems to be very light on telling one
when confirmation of messages should be used and when it should not be used.
For example, if notifications are being sent out from a broker - should all
messages get confirmations before continuing, should only some messges get
confirmations based either on the message published or on the notification
that is being sent to the client.  I.e. do you treat a removal from a
subscription differently if it is deleted vs if the authorization for the
subscriber expires?  In one case doing the get will show that it no longer
exists but in the other case the client will have missed messages when it
was not subscribed.

Jim





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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: rt and if registry question
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/fFNUd-Q-6QB8i0z600gZ1riElCQ>
Subject: Re: [core] rt and if registry question
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--_000_DM2PR0301MB07175E9EA387A588C0003CE0A3070DM2PR0301MB0717_
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While I'm waiting for an answer to the question below, I'll ask a related q=
uestion.
Can a prefix be registered?

In the appsawg discussion that led to RFC 7595, we discussed that question =
in the context of URI scheme names and
the WG consensus was no, there's no such thing as a prefix because it's tre=
ated as "an opaque string".

The text quoted from RFC 6690 section 3.1 below also says it's an opaque st=
ring, which might be interpreted as
"there's no such thing as a prefix", but then section 7.4 uses "core." as a=
 prefix.   You might say "core.*" is a prefix
for registration purposes but not for purposes of interpreting in code (I d=
on't believe that argument is reasonable though
since once you define it for one purpose, people will use it in code for re=
gistration which will then bleed into other
purposes, which is why appsawg disallowed any prefixes).   But if "core.*" =
is a prefix for registration purposes only,
then the question about whether other prefixes can be registered is a valid=
 question.

Comments?

Dave


From: Dave Thaler
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 1:40 PM
To: core@ietf.org
Subject: rt and if registry question

In some conversations I've been in, I've found that different people read R=
FC 6690 different ways.

Section 3.1 says:

   The Resource Type 'rt' attribute is an opaque string used to assign

   an application-specific semantic type to a resource.  One can think

   of this as a noun describing the resource.  In the case of a

   temperature resource, this could be, e.g., an application-specific

   semantic type like "outdoor-temperature" or a URI referencing a

   specific concept in an ontology like

   "http://sweet.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature".  Multiple

   Resource Types MAY be included in the value of this parameter, each

   separated by a space, similar to the relation attribute.  The

   registry for Resource Type values is defined in Section 7.4<https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc6690#section-7.4>.

Section 3.2 is similar for 'if' values.

And section 7.4 says:

   For both sub-registries, values starting with the characters "core"

   are registered using the IETF Review registration policy [RFC5226<https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226>].

   All other values are registered using the Specification Required

   policy, which requires review by a designated expert appointed by the

   IESG or their delegate.
...
   o  URIs are reserved for free use as extension values for these
      attributes and MUST NOT be registered.

So the question is, what values can be used _without_ registering.  Clearly=
 the last sentence above
says URIs are allowed.   But it's apparently ambiguous whether other values=
 like "outdoor-temperature"
in 3.1 (or "x.outdoor-temperature" or similar variations) can be used by an=
 application without registering it.
My reading of 3.1 is that registration is required for everything but URIs,=
 but others read section 3.1 differently.
Can the WG clarify what the intent is?

Thanks,
Dave

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">While I&#8217;m waitin=
g for an answer to the question below, I&#8217;ll ask a related question.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Can a prefix be regist=
ered?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In the appsawg discuss=
ion that led to RFC 7595, we discussed that question in the context of URI =
scheme names and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">the WG consensus was n=
o, there&#8217;s no such thing as a prefix because it&#8217;s treated as &#=
8220;an opaque string&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The text quoted from R=
FC 6690 section 3.1 below also says it&#8217;s an opaque string, which migh=
t be interpreted as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;there&#8217;s n=
o such thing as a prefix&#8221;, but then section 7.4 uses &#8220;core.&#82=
21; as a prefix.&nbsp;&nbsp; You might say &#8220;core.*&#8221; is a prefix=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">for registration purpo=
ses but not for purposes of interpreting in code (I don&#8217;t believe tha=
t argument is reasonable though<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">since once you define =
it for one purpose, people will use it in code for registration which will =
then bleed into other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">purposes, which is why=
 appsawg disallowed any prefixes).&nbsp;&nbsp; But if &#8220;core.*&#8221; =
is a prefix for registration purposes only,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">then the question abou=
t whether other prefixes can be registered is a valid question.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Comments?<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dave<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 3, 2016 1:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> core@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> rt and if registry question<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In some conversations I&#8217;ve been in, I&#8217;ve=
 found that different people read RFC 6690 different ways.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 3.1 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
Resource Type 'rt' attribute is an opaque string used to assign<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; an a=
pplication-specific semantic type to a resource.&nbsp; One can think<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; of t=
his as a noun describing the resource.&nbsp; In the case of a<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; temp=
erature resource, this could be, e.g., an application-specific<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; sema=
ntic type like &quot;outdoor-temperature&quot; or a URI referencing a<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; spec=
ific concept in an ontology like<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; &quo=
t;<a href=3D"http://sweet.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature">http://swe=
et.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature</a>&quot;.&nbsp; Multiple<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; Reso=
urce Types MAY be included in the value of this parameter, each<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; sepa=
rated by a space, similar to the relation attribute.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; regi=
stry for Resource Type values is defined in <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc6690#section-7.4">Section 7.4</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 3.2 is similar for &#8216;if&#8217; values.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And section 7.4 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; For =
both sub-registries, values starting with the characters &quot;core&quot;<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; are =
registered using the IETF Review registration policy [<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc5226" title=3D"&quot;Guidelines for Writing an IANA Co=
nsiderations Section in RFCs&quot;">RFC5226</a>].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; All =
other values are registered using the Specification Required<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; poli=
cy, which requires review by a designated expert appointed by the<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; IESG=
 or their delegate.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; o&nbsp; URIs are reserved for free use as extension values for these<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; attributes and =
MUST NOT be registered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">So the =
question is, what values can be used _<i>without</i>_ registering.&nbsp; Cl=
early the last sentence above<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">says UR=
Is are allowed.&nbsp;&nbsp; But it&#8217;s apparently ambiguous whether oth=
er values like &#8220;outdoor-temperature&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">in 3.1 =
(or &#8220;x.outdoor-temperature&#8221; or similar variations) can be used =
by an application without registering it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">My read=
ing of 3.1 is that registration is required for everything but URIs, but ot=
hers read section 3.1 differently.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Can the=
 WG clarify what the intent is?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Thanks,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Dave</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_DM2PR0301MB07175E9EA387A588C0003CE0A3070DM2PR0301MB0717_--


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The IESG has received a request from the Constrained RESTful Environments
WG (core) to consider the following document:
- 'Guidelines for HTTP-to-CoAP Mapping Implementations'
  <draft-ietf-core-http-mapping-13.txt> as Informational RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2016-08-22. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   This document provides reference information for implementing a
   cross-protocol network proxy that performs translation from the HTTP
   protocol to the CoAP protocol.  This will enable a HTTP client to
   access resources on a CoAP server through the proxy.  This document
   describes how a HTTP request is mapped to a CoAP request, and then
   how a CoAP response is mapped back to a HTTP response.  This includes
   guidelines for URI mapping, media type mapping and additional proxy
   implementation issues.  This document covers the Reverse, Forward and
   Interception cross-protocol proxy cases.




The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-http-mapping/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-http-mapping/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.





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Subject: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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Hi RD authors, Hi all,

I have a question regarding the use of the /rd prefix in the path.

The /rd path is used in the draft in various places, sometimes in
examples (where the use of completely optional) and in other places
where the use is recommended (but not mandated). The recommendation is
stated in Section 6.3 regarding the use of the RD function set path.

It is, however, not clear where in the text it was only used as an
example and when it was used according to the recommendation.

It appears that the use of the /rd in the path is only recommended for
the registration procedure. Is this correct?

Here is the relevant example:

   Req: POST coap://rd.example.com/rd?ep=3Dnode1
                                  ^^^^^
                                    +----- recommended
   Content-Format: 40
   Payload:
   </sensors/temp>;ct=3D41;rt=3D"temperature-c";if=3D"sensor",
   </sensors/light>;ct=3D41;rt=3D"light-lux";if=3D"sensor"

   Res: 2.01 Created
   Location: /rd/4521
            ^^^^
             +------- example only


   Req: POST /rd?ep=3Dnode1 HTTP/1.1
            ^^^^^
             +----- recommended

   Host : example.com
   Content-Type: application/link-format
   Payload:
   </sensors/temp>;ct=3D41;rt=3D"temperature-c";if=3D"sensor",
   </sensors/light>;ct=3D41;rt=3D"light-lux";if=3D"sensor"

   Res: 201 Created
   Location: /rd/4521
             ^^^^
              +------- example only


Ciao
Hannes


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From nobody Tue Aug  9 05:14:08 2016
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Subject: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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Hi Hannes,

it's good that you bring this up.

Section 6.2 says:

6.2.  Discovery

   Before an endpoint can make use of an RD, it must first know the RD's
   address and port, and the path of its RD Function Set. There can be

and goes on to describe how to look for the resource type "core.rd" to
find the path to the resource directory "function set" (a term that we
don't really like any more, but which will do for now -- this may be a
bit like the OAuth "endpoints"; we need to find a better term for these
sets of related resources).

I'm not quite sure what to make of the recommendation in Section 6.3 to
use "/rd" for the path that goes into the URI Template.  On one hand, a
convention like this can aid in debugging.  On the other hand,
conventions like this tend to ossify, and this turns the SHOULD into a
borderline violation of RFC 7320 (BCP 190).  I think I would be happier
to change the SHOULD into what it is, a convention, which can be
superseded by all kinds of considerations as per RFC 7320.  More
importantly, skipping the discovery step and going right for "/rd" would
be bad client behavior and should not be condonable by that SHOULD.
(The SHOULD is also making a rather implicit definition of when it can
be superseded -- whenever the convention is "impossible"?  What does
that mean...)

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi RD authors, Hi all,
> 
> I have a question regarding the use of the /rd prefix in the path.
> 
> The /rd path is used in the draft in various places, sometimes in
> examples (where the use of completely optional) and in other places
> where the use is recommended (but not mandated). The recommendation is
> stated in Section 6.3 regarding the use of the RD function set path.
> 
> It is, however, not clear where in the text it was only used as an
> example and when it was used according to the recommendation.
> 
> It appears that the use of the /rd in the path is only recommended for
> the registration procedure. Is this correct?
> 
> Here is the relevant example:
> 
>    Req: POST coap://rd.example.com/rd?ep=node1
>                                   ^^^^^
>                                     +----- recommended
>    Content-Format: 40
>    Payload:
>    </sensors/temp>;ct=41;rt="temperature-c";if="sensor",
>    </sensors/light>;ct=41;rt="light-lux";if="sensor"
> 
>    Res: 2.01 Created
>    Location: /rd/4521
>             ^^^^
>              +------- example only
> 
> 
>    Req: POST /rd?ep=node1 HTTP/1.1
>             ^^^^^
>              +----- recommended
> 
>    Host : example.com
>    Content-Type: application/link-format
>    Payload:
>    </sensors/temp>;ct=41;rt="temperature-c";if="sensor",
>    </sensors/light>;ct=41;rt="light-lux";if="sensor"
> 
>    Res: 201 Created
>    Location: /rd/4521
>              ^^^^
>               +------- example only
> 
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


From nobody Wed Aug 10 02:31:21 2016
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From: peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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Hi Carsten,

Do I understand correctly that you recommend to keep the current 
template wording?

URI Template:  /{+rd}{?ep,d,et,lt,con}

    URI Template Variables:

       rd :=  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path of the
          RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  An RD SHOULD use
          the value "rd" for this variable whenever possible.

Peter

Carsten Bormann schreef op 2016-08-09 14:13:
> Hi Hannes,
> 
> it's good that you bring this up.
> 
> Section 6.2 says:
> 
> 6.2.  Discovery
> 
>    Before an endpoint can make use of an RD, it must first know the 
> RD's
>    address and port, and the path of its RD Function Set. There can be
> 
> and goes on to describe how to look for the resource type "core.rd" to
> find the path to the resource directory "function set" (a term that we
> don't really like any more, but which will do for now -- this may be a
> bit like the OAuth "endpoints"; we need to find a better term for these
> sets of related resources).
> 
> I'm not quite sure what to make of the recommendation in Section 6.3 to
> use "/rd" for the path that goes into the URI Template.  On one hand, a
> convention like this can aid in debugging.  On the other hand,
> conventions like this tend to ossify, and this turns the SHOULD into a
> borderline violation of RFC 7320 (BCP 190).  I think I would be happier
> to change the SHOULD into what it is, a convention, which can be
> superseded by all kinds of considerations as per RFC 7320.  More
> importantly, skipping the discovery step and going right for "/rd" 
> would
> be bad client behavior and should not be condonable by that SHOULD.
> (The SHOULD is also making a rather implicit definition of when it can
> be superseded -- whenever the convention is "impossible"?  What does
> that mean...)
> 
> GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten
> 
> 
> Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi RD authors, Hi all,
>> 
>> I have a question regarding the use of the /rd prefix in the path.
>> 
>> The /rd path is used in the draft in various places, sometimes in
>> examples (where the use of completely optional) and in other places
>> where the use is recommended (but not mandated). The recommendation is
>> stated in Section 6.3 regarding the use of the RD function set path.
>> 
>> It is, however, not clear where in the text it was only used as an
>> example and when it was used according to the recommendation.
>> 
>> It appears that the use of the /rd in the path is only recommended for
>> the registration procedure. Is this correct?
>> 
>> Here is the relevant example:
>> 
>>    Req: POST coap://rd.example.com/rd?ep=node1
>>                                   ^^^^^
>>                                     +----- recommended
>>    Content-Format: 40
>>    Payload:
>>    </sensors/temp>;ct=41;rt="temperature-c";if="sensor",
>>    </sensors/light>;ct=41;rt="light-lux";if="sensor"
>> 
>>    Res: 2.01 Created
>>    Location: /rd/4521
>>             ^^^^
>>              +------- example only
>> 
>> 
>>    Req: POST /rd?ep=node1 HTTP/1.1
>>             ^^^^^
>>              +----- recommended
>> 
>>    Host : example.com
>>    Content-Type: application/link-format
>>    Payload:
>>    </sensors/temp>;ct=41;rt="temperature-c";if="sensor",
>>    </sensors/light>;ct=41;rt="light-lux";if="sensor"
>> 
>>    Res: 201 Created
>>    Location: /rd/4521
>>              ^^^^
>>               +------- example only
>> 
>> 
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> core mailing list
>> core@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
> 
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
References: <d14c05ca-2175-6e3b-71f1-8c8cedeeeb8f@gmx.net> <57A9C906.3060704@tzi.org>
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Cc: "core@ietf.org WG" <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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Hi Carsten,

I agree with you that 'function set' is probably not the best possible
term and maybe there is a chance to replace it with something else.

Regarding hard coding the path /rd instead of using discovery: I am not
necessarily against hard coding since it avoids the need of discovery,
particularly when it is unclear how often an IoT device needs to execute
this discovery step.

However, what I am less sure about is where in the document the /rd path
is actually the result of hard coding vs. just used in as an example.

Ciao
Hannes


On 08/09/2016 02:13 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> Hi Hannes,
>=20
> it's good that you bring this up.
>=20
> Section 6.2 says:
>=20
> 6.2.  Discovery
>=20
>    Before an endpoint can make use of an RD, it must first know the RD'=
s
>    address and port, and the path of its RD Function Set. There can be
>=20
> and goes on to describe how to look for the resource type "core.rd" to
> find the path to the resource directory "function set" (a term that we
> don't really like any more, but which will do for now -- this may be a
> bit like the OAuth "endpoints"; we need to find a better term for these=

> sets of related resources).
>=20
> I'm not quite sure what to make of the recommendation in Section 6.3 to=

> use "/rd" for the path that goes into the URI Template.  On one hand, a=

> convention like this can aid in debugging.  On the other hand,
> conventions like this tend to ossify, and this turns the SHOULD into a
> borderline violation of RFC 7320 (BCP 190).  I think I would be happier=

> to change the SHOULD into what it is, a convention, which can be
> superseded by all kinds of considerations as per RFC 7320.  More
> importantly, skipping the discovery step and going right for "/rd" woul=
d
> be bad client behavior and should not be condonable by that SHOULD.
> (The SHOULD is also making a rather implicit definition of when it can
> be superseded -- whenever the convention is "impossible"?  What does
> that mean...)
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
>=20
> Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi RD authors, Hi all,
>>
>> I have a question regarding the use of the /rd prefix in the path.
>>
>> The /rd path is used in the draft in various places, sometimes in
>> examples (where the use of completely optional) and in other places
>> where the use is recommended (but not mandated). The recommendation is=

>> stated in Section 6.3 regarding the use of the RD function set path.
>>
>> It is, however, not clear where in the text it was only used as an
>> example and when it was used according to the recommendation.
>>
>> It appears that the use of the /rd in the path is only recommended for=

>> the registration procedure. Is this correct?
>>
>> Here is the relevant example:
>>
>>    Req: POST coap://rd.example.com/rd?ep=3Dnode1
>>                                   ^^^^^
>>                                     +----- recommended
>>    Content-Format: 40
>>    Payload:
>>    </sensors/temp>;ct=3D41;rt=3D"temperature-c";if=3D"sensor",
>>    </sensors/light>;ct=3D41;rt=3D"light-lux";if=3D"sensor"
>>
>>    Res: 2.01 Created
>>    Location: /rd/4521
>>             ^^^^
>>              +------- example only
>>
>>
>>    Req: POST /rd?ep=3Dnode1 HTTP/1.1
>>             ^^^^^
>>              +----- recommended
>>
>>    Host : example.com
>>    Content-Type: application/link-format
>>    Payload:
>>    </sensors/temp>;ct=3D41;rt=3D"temperature-c";if=3D"sensor",
>>    </sensors/light>;ct=3D41;rt=3D"light-lux";if=3D"sensor"
>>
>>    Res: 201 Created
>>    Location: /rd/4521
>>              ^^^^
>>               +------- example only
>>
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> core mailing list
>> core@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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Subject: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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peter van der Stok wrote:
> Hi Carsten,
> 
> Do I understand correctly that you recommend to keep the current
> template wording?
> 
> URI Template:  /{+rd}{?ep,d,et,lt,con}
> 
>    URI Template Variables:
> 
>       rd :=  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path of the
>          RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  An RD SHOULD use
>          the value "rd" for this variable whenever possible.

Maybe a better wording of the last sentence would be:

As a convention that aids in debugging, a server can use the value "rd"
unless it prefers a different value.

Gets rid of the SHOULD, and makes it clear the the server is free to
choose (as per RFC 7320).

(And maybe we can get rid of "Function Set" in a separate effort.)

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


From nobody Wed Aug 10 07:11:20 2016
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Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments of the IETF.

        Title           : Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)
        Authors         : Peter van der Stok
                          Carsten Bormann
                          Anuj Sehgal
	Filename        : draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2016-08-10

Abstract:
   The existing Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) methods only
   allow access to a complete resource, not to parts of a resource.  In
   case of resources with larger or complex data, or in situations where
   a resource continuity is required, replacing or requesting the whole
   resource is undesirable.  Several applications using CoAP will need
   to perform partial resource accesses.

   Similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)
   GET method only allows the specification of a URI and request
   parameters in CoAP options, not the transfer of a request payload
   detailing the request.  This leads to some applications to using POST
   where actually a cacheable, idempotent, safe request is desired.

   Again similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol
   (CoAP) PUT method only allows to replace a complete resource.  This
   also leads applications to use POST where actually a cacheable,
   possibly idempotent request is desired.

   This specification adds new CoAP methods, FETCH, to perform the
   equivalent of a GET with a request body; and the twin methods PATCH
   and iPATCH, to modify parts of a CoAP resource.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-etch/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-etch-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-etch-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: Re: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt
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The authors have posted the post-WGLC version -02 of
draft-ietf-core-etch.  This should handle all the WGLC comments.

The detailed changes are at:

> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-etch-02

The summary is:

-- Lots of editorial changes (thanks for all the input!).

-- The examples have been fixed (and use the numeric Content-Format
values, including the unspecified "NNN" for the Content-Format value of
the hypothetical media type application/example-map-keys+json).

-- These fixes include switching to 4.00 (Bad Request) with a diagnostic
payload for the example showing a server reacting to a non-idempotent
patch payload in an iPATCH.  Remember that this is an example; there is
no intention to elaborately specify what a server has to check for an
iPATCH and how it should react if that is malformed.

-- Technical change: 4.22 (Unprocessable entity) is now explicitly
registered in the sub-registry "CoAP response codes".

The authors believe this is now ready for submission to the IESG.

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


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From: peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl>
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Subject: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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Hi Carsten,

Thanks for the suggestions, but the changes do not look that essential 
for the iteroperability and implementation to me.
I would prefer to get the draft out as is.
Hannes thinks differently?

Peter

Carsten Bormann schreef op 2016-08-10 13:39:
> peter van der Stok wrote:
>> Hi Carsten,
>> 
>> Do I understand correctly that you recommend to keep the current
>> template wording?
>> 
>> URI Template:  /{+rd}{?ep,d,et,lt,con}
>> 
>>    URI Template Variables:
>> 
>>       rd :=  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path of 
>> the
>>          RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  An RD SHOULD 
>> use
>>          the value "rd" for this variable whenever possible.
> 
> Maybe a better wording of the last sentence would be:
> 
> As a convention that aids in debugging, a server can use the value "rd"
> unless it prefers a different value.
> 
> Gets rid of the SHOULD, and makes it clear the the server is free to
> choose (as per RFC 7320).
> 
> (And maybe we can get rid of "Function Set" in a separate effort.)
> 
> GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


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From: Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>
To: "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Subject: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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I've started to address the open coap-tcp-tls issues - https://github.com/c=
ore-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues -  discussed at the IETF 96 meeting in Berlin. M=
y intention is to publish coap-tcp-tls-04 on or before August 22nd.

For the TLS related issues:

https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/8
https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/11

I've created a draft pull request - https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls=
/pull/52

For the ALPN issue:

https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/4

I've created a draft pull request - https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls=
/pull/53

Please review and feel free to comment on either the mailing list or in the=
 pull requests.=20

Thanks,
...Brian


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Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Hi Brian,

thanks for the update.

Regarding the TLS / ALPN case you have proposed the following wording:


With the exception of TCP port 5684, implementations that support CoAP
over TLS MUST perform protocol negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the
"coap" protocol identifier defined in <xref target=3D"alpnpid"/>.

What about using the following wording instead:

Implementations that support CoAP over TLS MUST perform protocol
negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the "coap" protocol identifier
defined in <xref target=3D"alpnpid"/> unless in deployments where ALPN
is not supported in the TLS protocol stack. Implementations MUST use
port number 5684 for those TLS implementations that do not support ALPN.

Regarding the pointers to RFC 7525 and RFC 7925. We should only
reference RFC 7925 since the recommendations in the two documents are
different and would lead to non-interoperable implementations. I did, of
course, point this out in my reviews but the authors were not interested
in IoT related concerns.

Ciao
Hannes

On 08/11/2016 03:05 AM, Brian Raymor wrote:
>=20
> I've started to address the open coap-tcp-tls issues - https://github.c=
om/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues -  discussed at the IETF 96 meeting in Ber=
lin. My intention is to publish coap-tcp-tls-04 on or before August 22nd.=

>=20
> For the TLS related issues:
>=20
> https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/8
> https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/11
>=20
> I've created a draft pull request - https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp=
-tls/pull/52
>=20
> For the ALPN issue:
>=20
> https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/4
>=20
> I've created a draft pull request - https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp=
-tls/pull/53
>=20
> Please review and feel free to comment on either the mailing list or in=
 the pull requests.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> ...Brian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>=20


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To: consultancy@vanderstok.org, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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Hi Peter,

I only want to have clarify what use of /rd is there in the examples
because of the recommendation and what has been chosen for convenience.

Ciao
Hannes


On 08/10/2016 05:40 PM, peter van der Stok wrote:
> Hi Carsten,
>=20
> Thanks for the suggestions, but the changes do not look that essential
> for the iteroperability and implementation to me.
> I would prefer to get the draft out as is.
> Hannes thinks differently?
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> Carsten Bormann schreef op 2016-08-10 13:39:
>> peter van der Stok wrote:
>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>
>>> Do I understand correctly that you recommend to keep the current
>>> template wording?
>>>
>>> URI Template:  /{+rd}{?ep,d,et,lt,con}
>>>
>>>    URI Template Variables:
>>>
>>>       rd :=3D  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path of=
 the
>>>          RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  An RD SHOULD u=
se
>>>          the value "rd" for this variable whenever possible.
>>
>> Maybe a better wording of the last sentence would be:
>>
>> As a convention that aids in debugging, a server can use the value "rd=
"
>> unless it prefers a different value.
>>
>> Gets rid of the SHOULD, and makes it clear the the server is free to
>> choose (as per RFC 7320).
>>
>> (And maybe we can get rid of "Function Set" in a separate effort.)
>>
>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub@ietf.org, core@ietf.org
References: <04fe01d1ee01$35bf9120$a13eb360$@augustcellars.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] Review of draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-05
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Hi Jim,

let me share my views on this document.

On 08/04/2016 05:35 AM, Jim Schaad wrote:
> I have a hard time saying that this is ready to be published, but that =
is in
> part because I think that the security aspects that are not being addre=
ssed
> in the document are important.
>=20
>=20
> Section 3.2 - The phrase "and potentially buffer messages" is causing m=
e
> problems.  By definition it must buffer the last data value that it
> includes.  It would be good at this point to explain exactly why it is
> buffering messages here.  I assume that you are talking about the flow
> control issues that are discussed later but I don't know this.

The reason why the pub/sub broker buffers messages is because the IoT
device is sleeping most of the time. For that reason, it cannot always
forward requests from applications immediately.

This is functionality called 'queue mode' in LWM2M and other terms have
been used in other IETF documents.

In my review I have been wondering why we aren't re-using the concepts
from LWM2M here.

Regarding the "topics": I have read this a bit differently. For me, a
node has resources and it publishes those. Then, there are applications
(Web applications, smart phone apps) who sent requests for those
resources. These resources have to be identified somehow and in LWM2M
there is a specific way of addressing the standardized resources (and
objects), as described in
https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2016/03/ipso-paper.pdf. Maybe
you want to be more generic here but I think it is important that there
is a standardized structure here and that we are not only talking in the
style of MQTT topics.


Ciao
Hannes


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Subject: Re: [core] Review of draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-05
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:16 AM
> To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; draft-koster-core-coap-
> pubsub@ietf.org; core@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [core] Review of draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-05
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> let me share my views on this document.
> 
> On 08/04/2016 05:35 AM, Jim Schaad wrote:
> > I have a hard time saying that this is ready to be published, but that
> > is in part because I think that the security aspects that are not
> > being addressed in the document are important.
> >
> >
> > Section 3.2 - The phrase "and potentially buffer messages" is causing
> > me problems.  By definition it must buffer the last data value that it
> > includes.  It would be good at this point to explain exactly why it is
> > buffering messages here.  I assume that you are talking about the flow
> > control issues that are discussed later but I don't know this.
> 
> The reason why the pub/sub broker buffers messages is because the IoT
device
> is sleeping most of the time. For that reason, it cannot always forward
requests
> from applications immediately.
> 
> This is functionality called 'queue mode' in LWM2M and other terms have
been
> used in other IETF documents.

I agree that having a 'queue mode' would be a nice feature, but I do not
believe that this is documented anyplace in this document.  Doing so would
require some additional text.  The current text says that messages are
always forwarded when they are received to a client.  If the client happens
to be asleep then it needs to go back and ask for the current value when it
wakes up.  

> 
> In my review I have been wondering why we aren't re-using the concepts
from
> LWM2M here.
> 
> Regarding the "topics": I have read this a bit differently. For me, a node
has
> resources and it publishes those. Then, there are applications (Web
applications,
> smart phone apps) who sent requests for those resources. These resources
have
> to be identified somehow and in LWM2M there is a specific way of
addressing
> the standardized resources (and objects), as described in
> https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2016/03/ipso-paper.pdf. Maybe
> you want to be more generic here but I think it is important that there is
a
> standardized structure here and that we are not only talking in the style
of MQTT
> topics.

I do not follow how this came from my review.  Is this an independent item
or is it following from something that I asked in my review?

Jim

> 
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes



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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub@ietf.org, core@ietf.org
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [core] Review of draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-05
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Hi Jim,

I agree that there is more text needed on the support of so-called
sleepy nodes.

I may have over-interpreted your remarks about the topic.

Ciao
Hannes


On 08/11/2016 05:22 PM, Jim Schaad wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:16 AM
>> To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>; draft-koster-core-coap-
>> pubsub@ietf.org; core@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [core] Review of draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub-05
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> let me share my views on this document.
>>
>> On 08/04/2016 05:35 AM, Jim Schaad wrote:
>>> I have a hard time saying that this is ready to be published, but tha=
t
>>> is in part because I think that the security aspects that are not
>>> being addressed in the document are important.
>>>
>>>
>>> Section 3.2 - The phrase "and potentially buffer messages" is causing=

>>> me problems.  By definition it must buffer the last data value that i=
t
>>> includes.  It would be good at this point to explain exactly why it i=
s
>>> buffering messages here.  I assume that you are talking about the flo=
w
>>> control issues that are discussed later but I don't know this.
>>
>> The reason why the pub/sub broker buffers messages is because the IoT
> device
>> is sleeping most of the time. For that reason, it cannot always forwar=
d
> requests
>> from applications immediately.
>>
>> This is functionality called 'queue mode' in LWM2M and other terms hav=
e
> been
>> used in other IETF documents.
>=20
> I agree that having a 'queue mode' would be a nice feature, but I do no=
t
> believe that this is documented anyplace in this document.  Doing so wo=
uld
> require some additional text.  The current text says that messages are
> always forwarded when they are received to a client.  If the client hap=
pens
> to be asleep then it needs to go back and ask for the current value whe=
n it
> wakes up. =20
>=20
>>
>> In my review I have been wondering why we aren't re-using the concepts=

> from
>> LWM2M here.
>>
>> Regarding the "topics": I have read this a bit differently. For me, a =
node
> has
>> resources and it publishes those. Then, there are applications (Web
> applications,
>> smart phone apps) who sent requests for those resources. These resourc=
es
> have
>> to be identified somehow and in LWM2M there is a specific way of
> addressing
>> the standardized resources (and objects), as described in
>> https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2016/03/ipso-paper.pdf. May=
be
>> you want to be more generic here but I think it is important that ther=
e is
> a
>> standardized structure here and that we are not only talking in the st=
yle
> of MQTT
>> topics.
>=20
> I do not follow how this came from my review.  Is this an independent i=
tem
> or is it following from something that I asked in my review?
>=20
> Jim
>=20
>>
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>=20
>=20


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From: Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Hi Hannes-

Thanks for the edit and the guidance about the TLS-related RFC(s). I'll inc=
orporate into the pull request before I merge later today.

...Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net]=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:30 PM
To: Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>; core@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls

Hi Brian,

thanks for the update.

Regarding the TLS / ALPN case you have proposed the following wording:


With the exception of TCP port 5684, implementations that support CoAP
over TLS MUST perform protocol negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the
"coap" protocol identifier defined in <xref target=3D"alpnpid"/>.

What about using the following wording instead:

Implementations that support CoAP over TLS MUST perform protocol
negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the "coap" protocol identifier
defined in <xref target=3D"alpnpid"/> unless in deployments where ALPN
is not supported in the TLS protocol stack. Implementations MUST use
port number 5684 for those TLS implementations that do not support ALPN.

Regarding the pointers to RFC 7525 and RFC 7925. We should only
reference RFC 7925 since the recommendations in the two documents are
different and would lead to non-interoperable implementations. I did, of
course, point this out in my reviews but the authors were not interested
in IoT related concerns.

Ciao
Hannes

<snip>


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Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 22:20:13 +0200
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
To: "=?utf-8?Q?core=40ietf.org_WG?=" <core@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [core] CoRE @ IETF96: minutes
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--57acddfd_654ff27d_8c0d
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I have uploaded draft minutes for the CoRE meetings =40IET=4696, extendin=
g the summary (that was sent right after the meeting) by more detailed di=
scussion notes:

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-core

Thanks again for the note takers (Ari, Jaime, Matthias).

If you said something during this meeting, please have a look and check t=
hat your statement is represented well.
Please send corrections to the chairs (core-chairs=40ietf.org) or, if the=
y need discussion, as a wide-reply to this message.
We have until=C2=A02016-09-12=C2=A0to fix mistakes, but the earlier the b=
etter.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


--57acddfd_654ff27d_8c0d
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<html><head><style>body=7Bfont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=7D</=
style></head><body style=3D=22word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;=22>I have uploaded draft min=
utes for the CoRE meetings =40IET=4696, extending the summary (that was s=
ent right after the meeting) by more detailed discussion notes:<div><br><=
/div><div><a href=3D=22https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minute=
s-96-core=22>https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-core<=
/a></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again for the note takers (Ari, Jaime=
, Matthias).</div><div><br></div><div>If you said something during this m=
eeting, please have a look and check that your statement is represented w=
ell.</div><div>Please send corrections to the chairs (<a href=3D=22mailto=
:core-chairs=40ietf.org=22>core-chairs=40ietf.org</a>) or, if they need d=
iscussion, as a wide-reply to this message.</div><div>We have until&nbsp;=
<strong style=3D=22font-size: 12.666666984558105px; font-family: Verdana,=
 Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;=22>2016-09-12&nbsp;</strong>to fix mistake=
s, but the earlier the better.</div><div><div><br></div><div>Gr=C3=BC=C3=9F=
e, Carsten</div></div><div><br></div></body></html>
--57acddfd_654ff27d_8c0d--


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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
To: 'Carsten Bormann' <cabo@tzi.org>, <core@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [core] CoRE @ IETF96: minutes
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I note that one of my comments was followed by a question mark.  Here is =
a slightly expanded version that you can use if you want.

=20

Jim: Half of the problems can be solved by tagging unions so that two =
branches will never have the same CBOR tag.

=20

From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carsten Bormann
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:20 PM
To: core@ietf.org WG <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] CoRE @ IETF96: minutes

=20

I have uploaded draft minutes for the CoRE meetings @IETF96, extending =
the summary (that was sent right after the meeting) by more detailed =
discussion notes:

=20

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-core

=20

Thanks again for the note takers (Ari, Jaime, Matthias).

=20

If you said something during this meeting, please have a look and check =
that your statement is represented well.

Please send corrections to the chairs (core-chairs@ietf.org =
<mailto:core-chairs@ietf.org> ) or, if they need discussion, as a =
wide-reply to this message.

We have until 2016-09-12 to fix mistakes, but the earlier the better.

=20

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

=20


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I note that =
one of my comments was followed by a question mark.=C2=A0 Here is a =
slightly expanded version that you can use if you =
want.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Jim: Half of =
the problems can be solved by tagging unions so that two branches will =
never have the same CBOR tag.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carsten =
Bormann<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
core@ietf.org WG &lt;core@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [core] =
CoRE @ IETF96: minutes<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>I have =
uploaded draft minutes for the CoRE meetings @IETF96, extending the =
summary (that was sent right after the meeting) by more detailed =
discussion notes:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-core">http=
s://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-core</a><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Thanks =
again for the note takers (Ari, Jaime, =
Matthias).<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>If you =
said something during this meeting, please have a look and check that =
your statement is represented well.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Please =
send corrections to the chairs (<a =
href=3D"mailto:core-chairs@ietf.org">core-chairs@ietf.org</a>) or, if =
they need discussion, as a wide-reply to this =
message.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>We have =
until&nbsp;</span><strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>2016-09-12&nbs=
p;</span></strong><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>to fix =
mistakes, but the earlier the =
better.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Gr=C3=BC=C3=
=9Fe, Carsten<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p =
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Subject: [core] Milestones changed for core WG
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Changed milestone "Best Practices for HTTP-CoAP Mapping Implementation
submitted to IESG", resolved as "Done".

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/core/charter/


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From: Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/S4hvjESINPayPwZ13_oae5fLdAE>
Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Hello,

To me the proposed update doesn't seem to read right having criteria at 
the start and end of the first sentence. Would the following be clearer?

Implementations that support CoAP over TLS with ALPN support MUST 
perform protocol
negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the "coap" protocol identifier
defined in <xref target="alpnpid"/>. In deployments where the TLS 
protocol stack does not support ALPN,
implementations MUST use port number 5684.

Regards, Christian


On 12/08/2016 6:09 AM, Brian Raymor wrote:
> Hi Hannes-
>
> Thanks for the edit and the guidance about the TLS-related RFC(s). I'll incorporate into the pull request before I merge later today.
>
> ...Brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:30 PM
> To: Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>; core@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> thanks for the update.
>
> Regarding the TLS / ALPN case you have proposed the following wording:
>
>
> With the exception of TCP port 5684, implementations that support CoAP
> over TLS MUST perform protocol negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the
> "coap" protocol identifier defined in <xref target="alpnpid"/>.
>
> What about using the following wording instead:
>
> Implementations that support CoAP over TLS MUST perform protocol
> negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the "coap" protocol identifier
> defined in <xref target="alpnpid"/> unless in deployments where ALPN
> is not supported in the TLS protocol stack. Implementations MUST use
> port number 5684 for those TLS implementations that do not support ALPN.
>
> Regarding the pointers to RFC 7525 and RFC 7925. We should only
> reference RFC 7925 since the recommendations in the two documents are
> different and would lead to non-interoperable implementations. I did, of
> course, point this out in my reviews but the authors were not interested
> in IoT related concerns.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> <snip>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>


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From: Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>
To: Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com>, "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Hi Christian,

Here's what I actually merged in my pull request yesterday which is availab=
le in the editor's draft - https://core-wg.github.io/coap-tcp-tls/

If the Application-Layer Protocol Negotiation Extension (ALPN) [RFC7301] is=
 available in the TLS protocol stack, CoAP over TLS implementations MUST pe=
rform protocol negotiation in TLS using the "coap" protocol identifier defi=
ned in Section 8.7. In exceptional cases where ALPN is unavailable, CoAP ov=
er TLS implementations MUST use port number 5684.


-----Original Message-----
From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian Groves
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:14 PM
To: core@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls

Hello,

To me the proposed update doesn't seem to read right having criteria at=20
the start and end of the first sentence. Would the following be clearer?

Implementations that support CoAP over TLS with ALPN support MUST=20
perform protocol
negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the "coap" protocol identifier
defined in <xref target=3D"alpnpid"/>. In deployments where the TLS=20
protocol stack does not support ALPN,
implementations MUST use port number 5684.

Regards, Christian


On 12/08/2016 6:09 AM, Brian Raymor wrote:
> Hi Hannes-
>
> Thanks for the edit and the guidance about the TLS-related RFC(s). I'll i=
ncorporate into the pull request before I merge later today.
>
> ...Brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:30 PM
> To: Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>; core@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> thanks for the update.
>
> Regarding the TLS / ALPN case you have proposed the following wording:
>
>
> With the exception of TCP port 5684, implementations that support CoAP
> over TLS MUST perform protocol negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the
> "coap" protocol identifier defined in <xref target=3D"alpnpid"/>.
>
> What about using the following wording instead:
>
> Implementations that support CoAP over TLS MUST perform protocol
> negotiation in TLS {{-alpn}} using the "coap" protocol identifier
> defined in <xref target=3D"alpnpid"/> unless in deployments where ALPN
> is not supported in the TLS protocol stack. Implementations MUST use
> port number 5684 for those TLS implementations that do not support ALPN.
>
> Regarding the pointers to RFC 7525 and RFC 7925. We should only
> reference RFC 7925 since the recommendations in the two documents are
> different and would lead to non-interoperable implementations. I did, of
> course, point this out in my reviews but the authors were not interested
> in IoT related concerns.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> <snip>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/ZrdmqOKsQIBFglsj_zhLlK6ySJw>
Subject: Re: [core] rt and if registry question
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Resending due to lack of response...
Any of the authors or WG chairs care to state what the intended WG consensu=
s was when RFC 6690 was published?

From: Dave Thaler
Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 8:04 AM
To: core@ietf.org
Subject: RE: rt and if registry question

While I'm waiting for an answer to the question below, I'll ask a related q=
uestion.
Can a prefix be registered?

In the appsawg discussion that led to RFC 7595, we discussed that question =
in the context of URI scheme names and
the WG consensus was no, there's no such thing as a prefix because it's tre=
ated as "an opaque string".

The text quoted from RFC 6690 section 3.1 below also says it's an opaque st=
ring, which might be interpreted as
"there's no such thing as a prefix", but then section 7.4 uses "core." as a=
 prefix.   You might say "core.*" is a prefix
for registration purposes but not for purposes of interpreting in code (I d=
on't believe that argument is reasonable though
since once you define it for one purpose, people will use it in code for re=
gistration which will then bleed into other
purposes, which is why appsawg disallowed any prefixes).   But if "core.*" =
is a prefix for registration purposes only,
then the question about whether other prefixes can be registered is a valid=
 question.

Comments?

Dave


From: Dave Thaler
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 1:40 PM
To: core@ietf.org<mailto:core@ietf.org>
Subject: rt and if registry question

In some conversations I've been in, I've found that different people read R=
FC 6690 different ways.

Section 3.1 says:

   The Resource Type 'rt' attribute is an opaque string used to assign

   an application-specific semantic type to a resource.  One can think

   of this as a noun describing the resource.  In the case of a

   temperature resource, this could be, e.g., an application-specific

   semantic type like "outdoor-temperature" or a URI referencing a

   specific concept in an ontology like

   "http://sweet.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature".  Multiple

   Resource Types MAY be included in the value of this parameter, each

   separated by a space, similar to the relation attribute.  The

   registry for Resource Type values is defined in Section 7.4<https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc6690#section-7.4>.

Section 3.2 is similar for 'if' values.

And section 7.4 says:

   For both sub-registries, values starting with the characters "core"

   are registered using the IETF Review registration policy [RFC5226<https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226>].

   All other values are registered using the Specification Required

   policy, which requires review by a designated expert appointed by the

   IESG or their delegate.
...
   o  URIs are reserved for free use as extension values for these
      attributes and MUST NOT be registered.

So the question is, what values can be used _without_ registering.  Clearly=
 the last sentence above
says URIs are allowed.   But it's apparently ambiguous whether other values=
 like "outdoor-temperature"
in 3.1 (or "x.outdoor-temperature" or similar variations) can be used by an=
 application without registering it.
My reading of 3.1 is that registration is required for everything but URIs,=
 but others read section 3.1 differently.
Can the WG clarify what the intent is?

Thanks,
Dave

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Resending due to lack =
of response...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Any of the authors or =
WG chairs care to state what the intended WG consensus was when RFC 6690 wa=
s published?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 4, 2016 8:04 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> core@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: rt and if registry question<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">While I&#8217;m waitin=
g for an answer to the question below, I&#8217;ll ask a related question.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Can a prefix be regist=
ered?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">In the appsawg discuss=
ion that led to RFC 7595, we discussed that question in the context of URI =
scheme names and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">the WG consensus was n=
o, there&#8217;s no such thing as a prefix because it&#8217;s treated as &#=
8220;an opaque string&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The text quoted from R=
FC 6690 section 3.1 below also says it&#8217;s an opaque string, which migh=
t be interpreted as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;there&#8217;s n=
o such thing as a prefix&#8221;, but then section 7.4 uses &#8220;core.&#82=
21; as a prefix.&nbsp;&nbsp; You might say &#8220;core.*&#8221; is a prefix=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">for registration purpo=
ses but not for purposes of interpreting in code (I don&#8217;t believe tha=
t argument is reasonable though<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">since once you define =
it for one purpose, people will use it in code for registration which will =
then bleed into other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">purposes, which is why=
 appsawg disallowed any prefixes).&nbsp;&nbsp; But if &#8220;core.*&#8221; =
is a prefix for registration purposes only,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">then the question abou=
t whether other prefixes can be registered is a valid question.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Comments?<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dave<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"></a><span style=3D"color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 3, 2016 1:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> rt and if registry question<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In some conversations I&#8217;ve been in, I&#8217;ve=
 found that different people read RFC 6690 different ways.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 3.1 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
Resource Type 'rt' attribute is an opaque string used to assign<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; an a=
pplication-specific semantic type to a resource.&nbsp; One can think<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; of t=
his as a noun describing the resource.&nbsp; In the case of a<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; temp=
erature resource, this could be, e.g., an application-specific<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; sema=
ntic type like &quot;outdoor-temperature&quot; or a URI referencing a<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; spec=
ific concept in an ontology like<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; &quo=
t;<a href=3D"http://sweet.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature">http://swe=
et.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature</a>&quot;.&nbsp; Multiple<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; Reso=
urce Types MAY be included in the value of this parameter, each<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; sepa=
rated by a space, similar to the relation attribute.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; regi=
stry for Resource Type values is defined in <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc6690#section-7.4">Section 7.4</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 3.2 is similar for &#8216;if&#8217; values.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And section 7.4 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; For =
both sub-registries, values starting with the characters &quot;core&quot;<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; are =
registered using the IETF Review registration policy [<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc5226" title=3D"&quot;Guidelines for Writing an IANA Co=
nsiderations Section in RFCs&quot;">RFC5226</a>].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; All =
other values are registered using the Specification Required<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; poli=
cy, which requires review by a designated expert appointed by the<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; IESG=
 or their delegate.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; o&nbsp; URIs are reserved for free use as extension values for these<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; attributes and =
MUST NOT be registered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">So the =
question is, what values can be used _<i>without</i>_ registering.&nbsp; Cl=
early the last sentence above<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">says UR=
Is are allowed.&nbsp;&nbsp; But it&#8217;s apparently ambiguous whether oth=
er values like &#8220;outdoor-temperature&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">in 3.1 =
(or &#8220;x.outdoor-temperature&#8221; or similar variations) can be used =
by an application without registering it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">My read=
ing of 3.1 is that registration is required for everything but URIs, but ot=
hers read section 3.1 differently.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Can the=
 WG clarify what the intent is?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Thanks,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Dave</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Hi Brian,

this text doesn't seem to address the case where the ALPN functionality
isn't available at the other end.  E.g., a server instance may very well
have ALPN implemented, but still elects to offer a coaps://....:5684
server for clients that don't.

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten

Brian Raymor wrote:
> If the Application-Layer Protocol Negotiation Extension (ALPN) [RFC7301] is available in the TLS protocol stack, CoAP over TLS implementations MUST perform protocol negotiation in TLS using the "coap" protocol identifier defined in Section 8.7. In exceptional cases where ALPN is unavailable, CoAP over TLS implementations MUST use port number 5684.


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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [core] rt and if registry question
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Hi Dave,

I'm not the foremost expert on this but I'll give it a try.

Dave Thaler wrote:
> Can a prefix be registered?

No.  There is nothing in section 7.4 of RFC 6690 that would create such
a registry.  (The concept of prefix is used in 4.1 for certain kinds of
searches, but it is really used in its straight computer science meaning
of "the beginning part".)

The text about Â»values starting with the characters "core"Â« is about
swapping out the registration policy, there is no other technical change.

Note that the text following (that instructs the designated expert) is
about avoiding the typical vagaries of choosing between link.format and
linkformat and link-format, so it is a matter of style consistency that
is meant to provide more predictability (and this memorability) of the
values being registered.  It uses "core." as an example, not in a
normative way.  ("core." doesn't occur in the entire RFC outside examples.)

Actually, "coresident-sensors" or "coresident.sensors" have the same
special IETF Review policy as "core.foo" -- the policy swap is in effect
for Â»values starting with the characters "core"Â«.

I believe the current text of RFC 6690 is sufficient to say all this and
no retroactive analysis of proceedings or mailing lists is required to
come to this conclusion.

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Subject: rt and if registry question
Thread-Topic: rt and if registry question
Thread-Index: AdHtxnz2wdbZZVFCRkuIwoepMaBv0Q==
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 20:40:10 +0000
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In some conversations I've been in, I've found that different people read R=
FC 6690 different ways.



Section 3.1 says:

   The Resource Type 'rt' attribute is an opaque string used to assign
   an application-specific semantic type to a resource.  One can think
   of this as a noun describing the resource.  In the case of a
   temperature resource, this could be, e.g., an application-specific
   semantic type like "outdoor-temperature" or a URI referencing a
   specific concept in an ontology like
   "http://sweet.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature".  Multiple
   Resource Types MAY be included in the value of this parameter, each
   separated by a space, similar to the relation attribute.  The
   registry for Resource Type values is defined in Section 7.4<https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc6690#section-7.4>.



Section 3.2 is similar for 'if' values.



And section 7.4 says:

   For both sub-registries, values starting with the characters "core"
   are registered using the IETF Review registration policy [RFC5226<https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226>].
   All other values are registered using the Specification Required
   policy, which requires review by a designated expert appointed by the
   IESG or their delegate.

...

   o  URIs are reserved for free use as extension values for these

      attributes and MUST NOT be registered.



So the question is, what values can be used _without_ registering.  Clearly=
 the last sentence above

says URIs are allowed.   But it's apparently ambiguous whether other values=
 like "outdoor-temperature"

in 3.1 (or "x.outdoor-temperature" or similar variations) can be used by an=
 application without registering it.

My reading of 3.1 is that registration is required for everything but URIs,=
 but others read section 3.1 differently.

Can the WG clarify what the intent is?



Thanks,

Dave


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In some conversations I&#8217;ve been in, I&#8217;ve=
 found that different people read RFC 6690 different ways.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 3.1 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
Resource Type 'rt' attribute is an opaque string used to assign<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; an a=
pplication-specific semantic type to a resource.&nbsp; One can think<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; of t=
his as a noun describing the resource.&nbsp; In the case of a<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; temp=
erature resource, this could be, e.g., an application-specific<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; sema=
ntic type like &quot;outdoor-temperature&quot; or a URI referencing a<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; spec=
ific concept in an ontology like<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; &quo=
t;<a href=3D"http://sweet.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature">http://swe=
et.jpl.nasa.gov/2.0/phys.owl#Temperature</a>&quot;.&nbsp; Multiple<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; Reso=
urce Types MAY be included in the value of this parameter, each<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; sepa=
rated by a space, similar to the relation attribute.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; regi=
stry for Resource Type values is defined in <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc6690#section-7.4">Section 7.4</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 3.2 is similar for &#8216;if&#8217; values.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And section 7.4 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; For =
both sub-registries, values starting with the characters &quot;core&quot;<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; are =
registered using the IETF Review registration policy [<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc5226" title=3D"&quot;Guidelines for Writing an IANA Co=
nsiderations Section in RFCs&quot;">RFC5226</a>].<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; All =
other values are registered using the Specification Required<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; poli=
cy, which requires review by a designated expert appointed by the<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; IESG=
 or their delegate.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; o&nbsp; URIs are reserved for free use as extension values for these<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; attributes and =
MUST NOT be registered.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">So the =
question is, what values can be used _<i>without</i>_ registering.&nbsp; Cl=
early the last sentence above<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">says UR=
Is are allowed.&nbsp;&nbsp; But it&#8217;s apparently ambiguous whether oth=
er values like &#8220;outdoor-temperature&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">in 3.1 =
(or &#8220;x.outdoor-temperature&#8221; or similar variations) can be used =
by an application without registering it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">My read=
ing of 3.1 is that registration is required for everything but URIs, but ot=
hers read section 3.1 differently.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Can the=
 WG clarify what the intent is?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Thanks,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Dave</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
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Dear CoRE-WG,

As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been =
requested for draft-groves-core-dynlink. This draft is the result of a =
document split and thus the initial status is that of adoption, =
nevertheless that has to be confirmed on the list. Please reply with =
your comments, including although not limited to whether or not you =
support adoption. Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.

Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on =
August 26, 2016.

Thanks,
Jaime and Carsten=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear CoRE-WG,<br class=""><br class="">As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been requested for&nbsp;draft-groves-core-dynlink. This draft is the result of a document split and thus the initial status is that of adoption, nevertheless that has to be confirmed on the list.&nbsp;Please&nbsp;reply with your comments, including although not&nbsp;limited to whether or not you support adoption. Non-authors are especially&nbsp;encouraged&nbsp;to comment.<br class=""><br class="">Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on&nbsp;<b class="">August 26, 2016</b>.<br class=""><br class="">Thanks,<br class="">Jaime and Carsten</body></html>
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From nobody Mon Aug 15 08:26:53 2016
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From: peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl>
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Hi All,

Andy and I are preparing drafts which present alternatives (complements) 
to SID.
Also we are preparing a draft which specifies a a content format that 
specifies the payload format for that alternative.

Although I approve of the work done in the SID draft, I think that we 
first need to discuss the cited coming drafts because they may have an 
impact on the presentation
and scope of the SID draft.

Peter


Jaime JimÃ©nez schreef op 2016-08-15 17:06:
> Dear CoRE-WG,
> 
> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been
> requested for draft-somaraju-core-sid. At the IETF meeting the room
> consensus was for adoption (3 people), since not too many people had
> read the draft we have to take it to the list. Please reply with your
> comments, including although not limited to whether or not you support
> adoption. Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.
> 
> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on
> AUGUST 26, 2016.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jaime and Carsten
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Brian Raymor wrote:
> If the Application-Layer Protocol Negotiation Extension (ALPN) [RFC7301] is available in both the client and server TLS protocol stacks, CoAP over TLS implementations MUST perform protocol negotiation in TLS using the "coap" protocol identifier defined in Section 8.7. The server MAY also offer CoAP over TLS only on port number 5684 for exceptional cases where ALPN is unavailable on the client or the server.

That works for me.  With these interoperability mandates, I'm generally
in favor of being very specific about what an implementation is supposed
to do or not supposed to do.  Let me try to summarize:

-- A TLS server MAY offer a coaps+tcp endpoint on TCP port 5864 if it
doesn't support ALPN and/or to accommodate TLS clients that don't.  A
TLS server MAY offer coaps+tcp endpoints on TCP ports different from
5684 if it does support ALPN.
-- On TCP ports different from 5684, a coaps+tcp TLS client MUST offer
ALPN value 'coap', and the coaps+tcp TLS server only becomes active if
the TLS server selects the ALPN value 'coap'.  (If a different ALPN
value is negotiated, or if the ALPN negotiation fails and thus causes a
fatal alert, the present specification does become active.)
-- On TCP port 5684, a TLS client MAY offer ALPN value 'coap' and a
coaps+tcp TLS server MAY then select ALPN value 'coap'.  (If a different
ALPN value is negotiated, or if the ALPN negotiation fails and thus
causes a fatal alert, the present specification does not become active.
**)  If the client does not send ALPN at all, coaps+tcp is assumed to be
selected on port 5684 only.  If the client does send ALPN, and the
server does not support ALPN, the negotiation will result in no ALPN
value being explicitly selected [check this], and, again, coaps+tcp is
assumed to be selected on port 5684 only.
**) If a different ALPN is selected on port 5864, [define behavior here].

Phew.  Are these all the cases we need to worry about?

Should it be allowed to negotiation ALPN â‰  'coap' on port 5684?
(Probably yes, to enable the negotiation of a 'coap2' etc.; we can't
really restrict what can be negotiated here without predicting the
future.  Or we could completely disallow the use of ALPN on port 5684.)

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


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From: Rahul Jadhav <rahul.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 06:17:11 +0200
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--94eb2c09d0b476e7be053a289f46
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I support adoption of this work. The work is of significance in cases where
the RTT is uneven amongst the nodes in LLNs and arriving at an optimal RTO
will significantly save retransmission overhead. Will keep reviewing and
testing the draft in the future.

Thanks for this work.

>
>
> From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez
> Sent: 15 August 2016 PM 08:39
> To: core@ietf.org WG
> Cc: draft-bormann-core-cocoa@ietf.org
> Subject: [core] =F0=9F=94=94 Working Group Adoption of draft-bormann-core=
-cocoa
>
>
>
> Dear CoRE-WG,
>
> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been requested
for draft-bormann-core-cocoa. At the IETF meeting the room consensus was
for adoption. Please reply to the list with your comments, including
although not limited to whether or not you support adoption. Non-authors
are especially encouraged to comment.
>
> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call
on August 26, 2016.
>
> Thanks,
> Jaime and Carsten
>
>

--94eb2c09d0b476e7be053a289f46
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<p dir=3D"ltr">I support adoption of this work. The work is of significance=
 in cases where the RTT is uneven amongst the nodes in LLNs and arriving at=
 an optimal RTO will significantly save retransmission overhead. Will keep =
reviewing and testing the draft in the future.
<br>

<br>
Thanks for this work.
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From: core [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org">core-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez<br>
&gt; Sent: 15 August 2016 PM 08:39<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a> WG<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-bormann-core-cocoa@ietf.org">draft-bormann=
-core-cocoa@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: [core] =F0=9F=94=94 Working Group Adoption of draft-bormann-c=
ore-cocoa<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Dear CoRE-WG,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been reques=
ted for draft-bormann-core-cocoa. At the IETF meeting the room=C2=A0consens=
us was for adoption.=C2=A0Please reply to the list with your comments, incl=
uding although not=C2=A0limited to whether or not you support adoption. Non=
-authors are especially=C2=A0encouraged to comment.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on=
=C2=A0August 26, 2016.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Jaime and Carsten<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0<br></p>

--94eb2c09d0b476e7be053a289f46--


From nobody Mon Aug 15 21:18:40 2016
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"If the Application-Layer Protocol Negotiation Extension (ALPN) 
[RFC7301] is available in both the client and server TLS protocol 
stacks..." seems to me to imply there's some prior knowledge of whether 
ALPN is supported in both the client and server. A CoAP client (TLS 
Client) will know whether it supports ALPN but not necessarily what the 
TLS server supports. A Client will send a clientHello with APLN "CoAP" 
and if the TLS server doesn't support the "CoAP" ALPN value, RFC7301 
specifies that it should respond with a fatal alert. In that case the 
fallback would be to use port number 5684.

Regards, Christian



On 16/08/2016 5:10 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> Brian Raymor wrote:
>> If the Application-Layer Protocol Negotiation Extension (ALPN) [RFC7301] is available in both the client and server TLS protocol stacks, CoAP over TLS implementations MUST perform protocol negotiation in TLS using the "coap" protocol identifier defined in Section 8.7. The server MAY also offer CoAP over TLS only on port number 5684 for exceptional cases where ALPN is unavailable on the client or the server.
> That works for me.  With these interoperability mandates, I'm generally
> in favor of being very specific about what an implementation is supposed
> to do or not supposed to do.  Let me try to summarize:
>
> -- A TLS server MAY offer a coaps+tcp endpoint on TCP port 5864 if it
> doesn't support ALPN and/or to accommodate TLS clients that don't.  A
> TLS server MAY offer coaps+tcp endpoints on TCP ports different from
> 5684 if it does support ALPN.
> -- On TCP ports different from 5684, a coaps+tcp TLS client MUST offer
> ALPN value 'coap', and the coaps+tcp TLS server only becomes active if
> the TLS server selects the ALPN value 'coap'.  (If a different ALPN
> value is negotiated, or if the ALPN negotiation fails and thus causes a
> fatal alert, the present specification does become active.)
> -- On TCP port 5684, a TLS client MAY offer ALPN value 'coap' and a
> coaps+tcp TLS server MAY then select ALPN value 'coap'.  (If a different
> ALPN value is negotiated, or if the ALPN negotiation fails and thus
> causes a fatal alert, the present specification does not become active.
> **)  If the client does not send ALPN at all, coaps+tcp is assumed to be
> selected on port 5684 only.  If the client does send ALPN, and the
> server does not support ALPN, the negotiation will result in no ALPN
> value being explicitly selected [check this], and, again, coaps+tcp is
> assumed to be selected on port 5684 only.
> **) If a different ALPN is selected on port 5864, [define behavior here].
>
> Phew.  Are these all the cases we need to worry about?
>
> Should it be allowed to negotiation ALPN â‰  'coap' on port 5684?
> (Probably yes, to enable the negotiation of a 'coap2' etc.; we can't
> really restrict what can be negotiated here without predicting the
> future.  Or we could completely disallow the use of ALPN on port 5684.)
>
> GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten
>


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Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 09:35:55 +0200
From: peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl>
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Subject: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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Hi Hannes, Carsten,

I will provide a phrase in the RD draft that the use of the path "/rd" 
in all examples is the convention used for the RD path in this draft.

Concerning the template I propose:

  rd :=  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path of the
       RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  The value "rd" is 
used as an example value throughout this document

and as a side:
Replace RD Function Set path by: RD container path?

Greetings,

Peter


Hannes Tschofenig schreef op 2016-08-11 08:31:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> I only want to have clarify what use of /rd is there in the examples
> because of the recommendation and what has been chosen for convenience.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> 
> On 08/10/2016 05:40 PM, peter van der Stok wrote:
>> Hi Carsten,
>> 
>> Thanks for the suggestions, but the changes do not look that essential
>> for the iteroperability and implementation to me.
>> I would prefer to get the draft out as is.
>> Hannes thinks differently?
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> Carsten Bormann schreef op 2016-08-10 13:39:
>>> peter van der Stok wrote:
>>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>> 
>>>> Do I understand correctly that you recommend to keep the current
>>>> template wording?
>>>> 
>>>> URI Template:  /{+rd}{?ep,d,et,lt,con}
>>>> 
>>>>    URI Template Variables:
>>>> 
>>>>       rd :=  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path of 
>>>> the
>>>>          RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  An RD SHOULD 
>>>> use
>>>>          the value "rd" for this variable whenever possible.
>>> 
>>> Maybe a better wording of the last sentence would be:
>>> 
>>> As a convention that aids in debugging, a server can use the value 
>>> "rd"
>>> unless it prefers a different value.
>>> 
>>> Gets rid of the SHOULD, and makes it clear the the server is free to
>>> choose (as per RFC 7320).
>>> 
>>> (And maybe we can get rid of "Function Set" in a separate effort.)
>>> 
>>> GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


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#398: lighting example

Changes (by consultancy@vanderstok.org):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


-- 
----------------------------------------+---------------------------------
 Reporter:  consultancy@vanderstok.org  |       Owner:  peter van der Stok
     Type:  editorial                   |      Status:  closed
 Priority:  major                       |   Milestone:
Component:  resource-directory          |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document          |  Resolution:  fixed
 Keywords:  lighting example            |
----------------------------------------+---------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/398#comment:1>
core <https://tools.ietf.org/core/>


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#399: message exchange figures

Changes (by consultancy@vanderstok.org):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


-- 
----------------------------------------+---------------------------------
 Reporter:  consultancy@vanderstok.org  |       Owner:  peter van der Stok
     Type:  editorial                   |      Status:  closed
 Priority:  major                       |   Milestone:
Component:  resource-directory          |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document          |  Resolution:  fixed
 Keywords:                              |
----------------------------------------+---------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/399#comment:1>
core <https://tools.ietf.org/core/>


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#372: Examples section with use cases

Changes (by consultancy@vanderstok.org):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |       Owner:  draft-ietf-core-resource-
  zach@sensinode.com     |  directory@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  task         |      Status:  closed
 Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:
Component:  resource-    |     Version:
  directory              |  Resolution:  fixed
 Severity:  -            |
 Keywords:               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/372#comment:1>
core <https://tools.ietf.org/core/>


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#413: Make Simple Directory Discovery really simple

Changes (by consultancy@vanderstok.org):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


Comment:

 Fixed in version -08

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |       Owner:  draft-ietf-core-resource-
  kovatsch@inf.ethz.ch   |  directory@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  protocol     |      Status:  closed
  enhancement            |   Milestone:
 Priority:  minor        |     Version:
Component:  resource-    |  Resolution:  fixed
  directory              |
 Severity:  -            |
 Keywords:               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/413#comment:1>
core <https://tools.ietf.org/core/>


From nobody Tue Aug 16 08:27:08 2016
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Subject: Re: [core] #412 (resource-directory): Simple Directory Discovery text
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#412: Simple Directory Discovery text

Changes (by consultancy@vanderstok.org):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


Comment:

 fixed in version -08

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |       Owner:  draft-ietf-core-resource-
  kovatsch@inf.ethz.ch   |  directory@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  editorial    |      Status:  closed
 Priority:  major        |   Milestone:
Component:  resource-    |     Version:
  directory              |  Resolution:  fixed
 Severity:  -            |
 Keywords:               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/412#comment:1>
core <https://tools.ietf.org/core/>


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 11:39:16 -0700
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--94eb2c1915ee85f2c7053a34aa0f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

FYI,


Peter and I have written a new draft called "Numeric YANG Identifiers"
which replaces the "YANG Hash" draft.

This draft combines hash-based and manual numbering and defines
a simple registry-based process for management of module and object
identifiers.

The need for a rehash procedure and rehash errors has been removed.
YANG Hash is now scoped by the module identifier so there are no
inter-module
interactions.  Hash collisions within a module are not allowed.
Manual assignments for colliding nodes are used to avoid the rare occurrence
of a hash collision within the same module.



Andy


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:29 AM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
To: Peter van der Stok <consultancy@vanderstok.org>, Andy Bierman <
andy@yumaworks.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Andy Bierman and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-bierman-core-yid
Revision:       00
Title:          Numeric YANG Identifiers
Document date:  2016-08-16
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          33
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bierman-core-yid-
00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-core-yid-00


Abstract:
   This document describes an encoding of YANG object identifiers using
   numeric values instead of string values.  It combines several
   techniques to provide optimized serialization in protocol messages.

Note

   Discussion and suggestions for improvement are requested, and should
   be sent to core@ietf.org.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--94eb2c1915ee85f2c7053a34aa0f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">FYI,<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Peter and I have wr=
itten a new draft called &quot;Numeric YANG Identifiers&quot;</div><div>whi=
ch replaces the &quot;YANG Hash&quot; draft.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div=
>This draft combines hash-based and manual numbering and defines</div><div>=
a simple registry-based process for management of module and object identif=
iers.</div><div><br></div><div>The need for a rehash procedure and rehash e=
rrors has been removed.</div><div>YANG Hash is now scoped by the module ide=
ntifier so there are no inter-module</div><div>interactions.=C2=A0 Hash col=
lisions within a module are not allowed.</div><div>Manual assignments for c=
olliding nodes are used to avoid the rare occurrence</div><div>of a hash co=
llision within the same module.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail=
_sendername"></b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@i=
etf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2016=
 at 11:29 AM<br>Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core-yi=
d-00.txt<br>To: Peter van der Stok &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:consultancy@vander=
stok.org">consultancy@vanderstok.org</a>&gt;, Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:andy@yumaworks.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;<br><br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Andy Bierman and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-bierman-core-yid<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Numeric YANG Identifiers<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2016-08-16<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 33<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-bierman-core-yi=
d-<wbr>00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-bierman-core-yid-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-bierman-core-yid-00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes an encoding of YANG object identifiers=
 using<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0numeric values instead of string values.=C2=A0 It combines sev=
eral<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0techniques to provide optimized serialization in protocol mess=
ages.<br>
<br>
Note<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Discussion and suggestions for improvement are requested, and =
should<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0be sent to <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a>.=
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1915ee85f2c7053a34aa0f--


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Subject: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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Hi,

We define three "function sets" in RD. They are Registration =
(rt=3Dcore.rd), Lookup (rt=3Dcore.rd-lookup) and Group =
(rt=3Dcore.rd-group). Each of these has an API entry URI that we suggest =
conventional usage of /rd, /rd-lookup, and /rd-group

Whatever we do to improve the terminology from "function set" to "REST =
API entry point" or whatever we choose, it needs to be done consistently =
in the document for all 3 cases.

I don't think "container path" is necessarily a better choice.=20

Hannes, Carsten, anyone, do you have a suggestion for what we should =
call these different API entry points?=20

Best regards,

Michael


> On Aug 16, 2016, at 12:35 AM, peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Hannes, Carsten,
>=20
> I will provide a phrase in the RD draft that the use of the path "/rd" =
in all examples is the convention used for the RD path in this draft.
>=20
> Concerning the template I propose:
>=20
> rd :=3D  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path of the
>      RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  The value "rd" is =
used as an example value throughout this document
>=20
> and as a side:
> Replace RD Function Set path by: RD container path?
>=20
> Greetings,
>=20
> Peter
>=20
>=20
> Hannes Tschofenig schreef op 2016-08-11 08:31:
>> Hi Peter,
>> I only want to have clarify what use of /rd is there in the examples
>> because of the recommendation and what has been chosen for =
convenience.
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>> On 08/10/2016 05:40 PM, peter van der Stok wrote:
>>> Hi Carsten,
>>> Thanks for the suggestions, but the changes do not look that =
essential
>>> for the iteroperability and implementation to me.
>>> I would prefer to get the draft out as is.
>>> Hannes thinks differently?
>>> Peter
>>> Carsten Bormann schreef op 2016-08-10 13:39:
>>>> peter van der Stok wrote:
>>>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>>> Do I understand correctly that you recommend to keep the current
>>>>> template wording?
>>>>> URI Template:  /{+rd}{?ep,d,et,lt,con}
>>>>>   URI Template Variables:
>>>>>      rd :=3D  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path =
of the
>>>>>         RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  An RD SHOULD =
use
>>>>>         the value "rd" for this variable whenever possible.
>>>> Maybe a better wording of the last sentence would be:
>>>> As a convention that aids in debugging, a server can use the value =
"rd"
>>>> unless it prefers a different value.
>>>> Gets rid of the SHOULD, and makes it clear the the server is free =
to
>>>> choose (as per RFC 7320).
>>>> (And maybe we can get rid of "Function Set" in a separate effort.)
>>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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From: Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>
To: Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Thread-Topic: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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Subject: Re: [core] Updates to coap-tcp-tls
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From: Michael Koster <michaeljohnkoster@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 05:34:23 -0700
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To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] rt and if registry question
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Hi,

Assuming we must register rt and if values used in OCF, is the CoRE =
Paramaters Registry an appropriate venue for registration?

http://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.xhtml =
<http://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.xhtml>

NB in OCF, rt is used for application semantics and there may be =
hundreds to thousands of rt terms registered with more being added over =
time.

Will the CoRE Parameters Registry be appropriate for registration of =
such a large volume of terms, or is there another preferred approach?

Best regards,

Michael


> On Aug 14, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Thanks Carsten for the response!  This answers one of the two =
questions I asked.  I'm still waiting for an
> answer on the other question (in short, it was: can you use values =
other than URIs without
> registering, or only URIs?)   The attached email is the one I'm still =
waiting for an answer on.
>=20
> I believe I know the answer but since there's apparently confusion, =
I'd like confirmation on the list either way.
>=20
> Dave
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]
>> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 3:19 PM
>> To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
>> Cc: core@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [core] rt and if registry question
>>=20
>> Hi Dave,
>>=20
>> I'm not the foremost expert on this but I'll give it a try.
>>=20
>> Dave Thaler wrote:
>>> Can a prefix be registered?
>>=20
>> No.  There is nothing in section 7.4 of RFC 6690 that would create =
such a
>> registry.  (The concept of prefix is used in 4.1 for certain kinds of =
searches,
>> but it is really used in its straight computer science meaning of =
"the beginning
>> part".)
>>=20
>> The text about =C2=BBvalues starting with the characters "core"=C2=AB =
is about
>> swapping out the registration policy, there is no other technical =
change.
>>=20
>> Note that the text following (that instructs the designated expert) =
is about
>> avoiding the typical vagaries of choosing between link.format and =
linkformat
>> and link-format, so it is a matter of style consistency that is meant =
to provide
>> more predictability (and this memorability) of the values being =
registered.  It
>> uses "core." as an example, not in a normative way.  ("core." doesn't =
occur in
>> the entire RFC outside examples.)
>>=20
>> Actually, "coresident-sensors" or "coresident.sensors" have the same =
special
>> IETF Review policy as "core.foo" -- the policy swap is in effect for =
=C2=BBvalues
>> starting with the characters "core"=C2=AB.
>>=20
>> I believe the current text of RFC 6690 is sufficient to say all this =
and no
>> retroactive analysis of proceedings or mailing lists is required to =
come to this
>> conclusion.
>>=20
>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
> <Mail Attachment.eml>_______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>

--Apple-Mail=_600CEC55-392B-43E8-858C-B8BAC03E816D
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Assuming we must register rt and if values used in OCF, is =
the CoRE Paramaters Registry an appropriate venue for =
registration?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a=
 =
href=3D"http://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.xh=
tml" =
class=3D"">http://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters=
.xhtml</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">NB =
in OCF, rt is used for application semantics and there may be hundreds =
to thousands of rt terms registered with more being added over =
time.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Will the =
CoRE Parameters Registry be appropriate for registration of such a large =
volume of terms, or is there another preferred approach?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Best regards,</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Michael</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 14, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Thanks Carsten for the response! &nbsp;This =
answers one of the two questions I asked. &nbsp;I'm still waiting for =
an</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">answer on the other =
question (in short, it was: can you use values other than URIs =
without</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">registering, or only =
URIs?) &nbsp;&nbsp;The attached email is the one I'm still waiting for =
an answer on.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I believe I know the =
answer but since there's apparently confusion, I'd like confirmation on =
the list either way.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Dave</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D"">From: Carsten Bormann [<a =
href=3D"mailto:cabo@tzi.org" class=3D"">mailto:cabo@tzi.org</a>]<br =
class=3D"">Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 3:19 PM<br class=3D"">To: Dave =
Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">Subject: Re: [core] rt and if registry question<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Dave,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm not =
the foremost expert on this but I'll give it a try.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Dave Thaler wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Can a prefix be registered?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">No. &nbsp;There is nothing in section 7.4 of RFC 6690 that =
would create such a<br class=3D"">registry. &nbsp;(The concept of prefix =
is used in 4.1 for certain kinds of searches,<br class=3D"">but it is =
really used in its straight computer science meaning of "the =
beginning<br class=3D"">part".)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The text =
about =C2=BBvalues starting with the characters "core"=C2=AB is about<br =
class=3D"">swapping out the registration policy, there is no other =
technical change.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Note that the text =
following (that instructs the designated expert) is about<br =
class=3D"">avoiding the typical vagaries of choosing between link.format =
and linkformat<br class=3D"">and link-format, so it is a matter of style =
consistency that is meant to provide<br class=3D"">more predictability =
(and this memorability) of the values being registered. &nbsp;It<br =
class=3D"">uses "core." as an example, not in a normative way. =
&nbsp;("core." doesn't occur in<br class=3D"">the entire RFC outside =
examples.)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Actually, "coresident-sensors" =
or "coresident.sensors" have the same special<br class=3D"">IETF Review =
policy as "core.foo" -- the policy swap is in effect for =C2=BBvalues<br =
class=3D"">starting with the characters "core"=C2=AB.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I believe the current text of RFC 6690 is sufficient to say =
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From nobody Wed Aug 17 07:22:42 2016
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Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_Working_Group_Adoption_call_for_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-somaraju-core-sid?=
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Dear Peter,

Thanks for approving the work on the SID draft.=20

It is indeed the generic work which follows a KISS rule - provide a =
ultra-light way of assigning ranges. This leaves the flexibility (and =
complexity) particular instances may wish to additional specification =
(e.g. be it the registry policy, or other).

Best,
Alexander



> Le 15 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 17:26, peter van der Stok =
<stokcons@xs4all.nl> a =C3=A9crit :
>=20
> Hi All,
>=20
> Andy and I are preparing drafts which present alternatives =
(complements) to SID.
> Also we are preparing a draft which specifies a a content format that =
specifies the payload format for that alternative.
>=20
> Although I approve of the work done in the SID draft, I think that we =
first need to discuss the cited coming drafts because they may have an =
impact on the presentation
> and scope of the SID draft.
>=20
> Peter
>=20
>=20
> Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez schreef op 2016-08-15 17:06:
>> Dear CoRE-WG,
>> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been
>> requested for draft-somaraju-core-sid. At the IETF meeting the room
>> consensus was for adoption (3 people), since not too many people had
>> read the draft we have to take it to the list. Please reply with your
>> comments, including although not limited to whether or not you =
support
>> adoption. Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.
>> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on
>> AUGUST 26, 2016.
>> Thanks,
>> Jaime and Carsten
>> _______________________________________________
>> core mailing list
>> core@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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A pull request with the more detailed guidance on ALPN and port 5684 is ava=
ilable - https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/pull/56 - Thanks to Carste=
n and Christian for their earlier feedback.

A pull request for the mandatory exchange of capability and setting message=
s (csm) is available - https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/pull/55

One open question is whether we want to allow a client to immediately send =
messages after sending its CSM without waiting for the server CSM. This wou=
ld be similar to HTTP/2:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7540#section-3.5

  To avoid unnecessary latency, clients are permitted to send
   additional messages to the server immediately after sending the client
   connection preface, without waiting to receive the server connection
   preface.  It is important to note, however, that the server
   connection preface SETTINGS frame might include parameters that
   necessarily alter how a client is expected to communicate with the
   server.  Upon receiving the SETTINGS frame, the client is expected to
   honor any parameters established.  In some configurations, it is
   possible for the server to transmit SETTINGS before the client sends
   additional frames, providing an opportunity to avoid this issue.

And there's a pull request for ping vs ping - https://github.com/core-wg/co=
ap-tcp-tls/pull/54


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Hi all,

The draft below has been submitted to complement the draft on YANG 
Identifiers (YID) with a CBOR encoding of YID.

The draft shows how the encoding of the numeric YANG identifiers can be 
removed from the YANG to CBOR document
and delegated to a content-format specification.
The draft uses delta encoding, specified in YANG to CBOR document 
throughout.

This has 2 advantages in my opinion:
1) It removes a large burden from the YANG to CBOR document, which can 
now concentrate on the essentials which are more permanent.
2) It is possible to accommodate future identifier encoding in separate 
content-format drafts.

Greetings,

peter
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A new version of I-D, draft-vanderstok-core-cbor-yid-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Peter van der Stok and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-vanderstok-core-cbor-yid
Revision:	00
Title:		CBOR format for YIDs
Document date:	2016-08-18
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		18
URL:            
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vanderstok-core-cbor-yid-00.txt
Status:         
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vanderstok-core-cbor-yid/
Htmlized:       
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vanderstok-core-cbor-yid-00


Abstract:
    This document describes CoAP content formats to transport CBOR
    encoded YANG objects which use numeric YANG object identifiers.  YANG
    objects are serialized according to the YANG to CBOR encoding.  The
    object identifier is composed of a module number followed by a yang
    name numeric identifier

Note

    Discussion and suggestions for improvement are requested, and should
    be sent to core@ietf.org.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of 
submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


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From: Michael Koster <michael.koster@smartthings.com>
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Subject: [core] CoAP Content format encoding for structures syntax and format parameters
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Hi,

What is the curent thought wrt the CoAP content-format encoding for =
structured syntax media identifiers, like link-format+json, senml+cbor?=20=


Does each combination need to have its own IANA registered code, or is =
there a scheme for structured identifier codes in CoAP?

Likewise, what is the preferred way to transmit media type parameters, =
for example with "application/senml+json; version=3D2" how do we =
transmit the version=3D2 part?

Best regards,

Michael=


From nobody Sun Aug 21 02:27:16 2016
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From: "Carles Gomez Montenegro" <carlesgo@entel.upc.edu>
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Dear WG,

This is just a short note to remind interested folks that slides 55-59
from the IETF 96 consolidated slideset [1] summarize the current status of
CoCoA and work done on the topic. The summary includes IETF/IRTF
presentations given, related I-Ds, related research publications, and
running code.

Thanks!

Carles

[1] https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-core-0.pdf

PS: I support adoption of the document, although this is probably obvious
as I am one of the document authors...


> Dear CoRE-WG,
>
> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been requested
> for draft-bormann-core-cocoa. At the IETF meeting the room consensus was
> for adoption. Please reply to the list with your comments, including
> although not limited to whether or not you support adoption. Non-authors
> are especially encouraged to comment.
>
> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on
> August 26, 2016.
>
> Thanks,
> Jaime and Carsten
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>



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Subject: Re: [core] #406 (resource-directory): Consider URI ranking, Privacy Model, etc. as part of RD
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#406: Consider URI ranking, Privacy Model, etc. as part of RD


Comment (by consultancy@vanderstok.org):

 As explained and approved during IETF-96, these additions will not be done
 in this version of the RD draft.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |       Owner:  draft-ietf-core-
  akbar.rahman@interdigital.com      |  resource-directory@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  protocol enhancement     |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |   Milestone:
Component:  resource-directory       |     Version:
 Severity:  -                        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/406#comment:1>
core <https://tools.ietf.org/core/>


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#406: Consider URI ranking, Privacy Model, etc. as part of RD

Changes (by consultancy@vanderstok.org):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |       Owner:  draft-ietf-core-
  akbar.rahman@interdigital.com      |  resource-directory@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  protocol enhancement     |      Status:  closed
 Priority:  major                    |   Milestone:
Component:  resource-directory       |     Version:
 Severity:  -                        |  Resolution:  fixed
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/406#comment:2>
core <https://tools.ietf.org/core/>


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Subject: Re: [core] #414 (resource-directory): RESTful operation and link parameter changes
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#414: RESTful operation and link parameter changes

Changes (by consultancy@vanderstok.org):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


Comment:

 As explained and approved during IETF-96, these modifications are outside
 the scope of the current RD, and will not be taken over.

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |       Owner:  draft-ietf-core-resource-
  lauri.piikivi@arm.com  |  directory@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  protocol     |      Status:  closed
  enhancement            |   Milestone:
 Priority:  major        |     Version:
Component:  resource-    |  Resolution:  fixed
  directory              |
 Severity:  -            |
 Keywords:               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/414#comment:1>
core <https://tools.ietf.org/core/>


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Subject: Re: [core] #405 (resource-directory): A link attribute cannot restrict the link-format syntax
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#405: A link attribute cannot restrict the link-format syntax

Changes (by consultancy@vanderstok.org):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


Comment:

 changed in version 09

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |       Owner:  draft-ietf-core-resource-
  cabo@tzi.org           |  directory@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  protocol     |      Status:  closed
  defect                 |   Milestone:
 Priority:  minor        |     Version:
Component:  resource-    |  Resolution:  fixed
  directory              |
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
 Keywords:               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/core/trac/ticket/405#comment:1>
core <https://tools.ietf.org/core/>


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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Routing Over Low power and Lossy networks <roll@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Roll] AD sponsoring draft-kivinen-802-15-ie-02
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Subject: Re: [core] [Roll] AD sponsoring draft-kivinen-802-15-ie-02
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Seems like the draft needs some more on how the IETF will allocate the subt=
ype.=20


> On Jul 18, 2016, at 6:39 AM, Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.co=
m> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>   I am considering AD sponsoring the following draft
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kivinen-802-15-ie-02
>=20
> to request the allocation of an 802.15.4 information element from the IEE=
E=20
> for use in the IETF protocols that may need it. If you have any concerns=
=20
> either with the content of the draft or about requesting the IE at all pl=
ease=20
> let me know before 2016/07/29.
>=20
> Thanks
> Suresh
>=20
> NOTE: I have CCed: all the groups that I thought could be potentially=20
> interested in this work. If you think I have missed out some WG(s) please=
 let=20
> me know.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Roll mailing list
> Roll@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll


From nobody Mon Aug 22 07:41:45 2016
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Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 17:41:37 +0300
From: Tero Kivinen <kivinen@iki.fi>
To: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] [6tisch] [Roll] AD sponsoring draft-kivinen-802-15-ie-02
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Cullen Jennings (fluffy) writes:
> Seems like the draft needs some more on how the IETF will allocate
> the subtype.

If you mean how IETF will get the subtype from the IEEE, then after we
have this document approved, we make an request to the IEEE refering
to this document, and IEEE 802.15 Assigned Numbers Authority will then
follow their own procedures to do the allocation:
http://www.ieee802.org/15/ANA.html

I think first we just need to specify how we are going to do the
subtyping (or at least have belivable plan for it) before we can start
the process.

What kind of text you think we should add to this document?
-- 
kivinen@iki.fi


From nobody Mon Aug 22 14:01:39 2016
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 14:17:27 -0700
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To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
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On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Michel Veillette <
Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy
>
>
>
> I see two fundamental differences between the SID and the YID drafts.
>
>
>
> 1) The name
>
> YID is harder to pronounce, but seem to be technically better.
>
> These IDs are not really structured, they are in fact arbitrary if we
> allocate them by range(s).
>
> But we shall use them only for YANG items if we want to keep them compact.
>
>
>



2) Allocation per range or per prefix
>
> Last winter, we moved from an allocation per prefix (20 bits, 10 bits) to
> an allocation per range(s).
>
>
>


I realize that if I ask for a range of 64K, then why should the registry
care
if I use it for manual numbering or hashing. I think module-ids
are easier to manage though.  YID proposes that a module-id be added
to the YANG Module Registry and IANA will assign the module-id.
This is how it works for the SNMP OID root for a MIB module,
which is essentially the same thing.

IMO modules should fit into 1 range, if ranges are used.




> We did this change for the following reasons:
>
> - Starvation of IDs.
>
> The size of the range can be adjusted based on the estimated number of
> items for each particular YANG module.
>
> And extra range(s) can be added if needed.
>


I think the YID registry can be scaled down as needed.
e.g., the server "knows" no module it supports has more than 256 objects so
the "local-bits" can be scaled down from 16 bits to 8 bits.




>
>
> - Efficiency
>
> An allocation based on a fixed number of bits become very inefficient,
> especially if want or minimize the ricks of starvation and to support
> multiple tiers of registration (IANA, SDO/registrars, Developers, YANG
> modules).
>
>
>
> These reasons are still valid and I hope you appreciate the advantages of
> using ranges.
>
>
>
> ==================
>
>
>
> I also want to clarify a couple of items discussed on the malling list.
>
>
>
> 1) [I-D.somaraju-core-sid] don't mandate any specific algorithm to perform
> the allocation of IDs to YANG items.
>
> Using a hash to perform this allocation is perfectly valid and the text
> should be modified to mention the possible use of a hash or any other
> algorithms.
>
>
>
> 2) manual / sequential numbering
>
> [I-D.bierman-core-yid] associate the term "manual" to sequential numbering.
>
> Since  [I-D.somaraju-core-sid] recommend the use an automated process to
> perform SIDs allocation, we should avoid the use of "manual" to qualify
> sequential numbering.
>


No -- I mean manual.
What if I want to leave some gaps in the numbering for future growth?
Since the number of CBOR bytes is 1 whether the delta is 1 or 23,
I can leave padding in the number space without any penalty in the protocol.
Sequential numbering gets very non-sequential (the more so with every new
module revision).





>
>
> ==================
>
>
>
> As a last comment, [I-D.bierman-core-yid] contain a lot of very good
> description text which should be preserved during the merging process.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michel Veillette
>
>
>


Andy



> *From:* core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:39 PM
> *To:* Core <core@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [core] Fwd: New Version Notification for
> draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
>
>
>
> FYI,
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter and I have written a new draft called "Numeric YANG Identifiers"
>
> which replaces the "YANG Hash" draft.
>
>
>
> This draft combines hash-based and manual numbering and defines
>
> a simple registry-based process for management of module and object
> identifiers.
>
>
>
> The need for a rehash procedure and rehash errors has been removed.
>
> YANG Hash is now scoped by the module identifier so there are no
> inter-module
>
> interactions.  Hash collisions within a module are not allowed.
>
> Manual assignments for colliding nodes are used to avoid the rare
> occurrence
>
> of a hash collision within the same module.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:29 AM
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
> To: Peter van der Stok <consultancy@vanderstok.org>, Andy Bierman <
> andy@yumaworks.com>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Andy Bierman and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-bierman-core-yid
> Revision:       00
> Title:          Numeric YANG Identifiers
> Document date:  2016-08-16
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          33
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-
> drafts/draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-core-yid-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This document describes an encoding of YANG object identifiers using
>    numeric values instead of string values.  It combines several
>    techniques to provide optimized serialization in protocol messages.
>
> Note
>
>    Discussion and suggestions for improvement are requested, and should
>    be sent to core@ietf.org.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Michel Veillette <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Mic=
hel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Andy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">I see two fundamental differences between the SID =
and the YID drafts.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">1) The name<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">YID is harder to pronounce, but seem to be technic=
ally better.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">These IDs are not really structured, they are in f=
act arbitrary if we allocate them by range(s).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">But we shall use them only for YANG items if we wa=
nt to keep them compact.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-colo=
r:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"E=
N-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">2) Allocation per range or per prefix<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Last winter, we moved from an allocation per prefi=
x (20 bits, 10 bits) to an allocation per range(s).<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div><br class=3D"">I realize that if I ask for a range of 64=
K, then why should the registry care</div><div>if I use it for manual numbe=
ring or hashing. I think module-ids</div><div>are easier to manage though.=
=C2=A0 YID proposes that a module-id be added</div><div>to the YANG Module =
Registry and IANA will assign the module-id.</div><div>This is how it works=
 for the SNMP OID root for a MIB module,</div><div>which is essentially the=
 same thing.</div><div><br></div><div>IMO modules should fit into 1 range, =
if ranges are used.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">We did this change for the following reasons:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">- Starvation of IDs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">The size of the range can be adjusted based on the=
 estimated number of items for each particular YANG module.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">And extra range(s) can be added if needed.</span><=
/p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think the =
YID registry can be scaled down as needed.</div><div>e.g., the server &quot=
;knows&quot; no module it supports has more than 256 objects so</div><div>t=
he &quot;local-bits&quot; can be scaled down from 16 bits to 8 bits.</div><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-co=
lor:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D=
"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">- Efficiency<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">An allocation based on a fixed number of bits beco=
me very inefficient, especially if want or minimize the ricks of starvation=
 and to support multiple tiers of
 registration (IANA, SDO/registrars, Developers, YANG modules).<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">These reasons are still valid and I hope you appre=
ciate the advantages of using ranges.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">I also want to clarify a couple of items discussed=
 on the malling list.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">1) [I-D.somaraju-core-sid] don&#39;t mandate any s=
pecific algorithm to perform the allocation of IDs to YANG items.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Using a hash to perform this allocation is perfect=
ly valid and the text should be modified to mention the possible use of a h=
ash or any other algorithms.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">2) manual / sequential numbering<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">[I-D.bierman-core-yid] associate the term &quot;ma=
nual&quot; to sequential numbering.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Since =C2=A0[I-D.somaraju-core-sid] recommend the =
use an automated process to perform SIDs allocation, we should avoid the us=
e of &quot;manual&quot; to qualify sequential numbering.</span></p></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>No -- I mean manual.</d=
iv><div>What if I want to leave some gaps in the numbering for future growt=
h?</div><div>Since the number of CBOR bytes is 1 whether the delta is 1 or =
23,</div><div>I can leave padding in the number space without any penalty i=
n the protocol.</div><div>Sequential numbering gets very non-sequential (th=
e more so with every new module revision).</div><div><br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" li=
nk=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-C=
A" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">As a last comment, [I-D.bierman-core-yid] contain =
a lot of very good description text which should be preserved during the me=
rging process.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Michel Veillette<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> core [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">core-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy Bierman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Core &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">core=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [core] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core=
-yid-00.txt<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">FYI,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Peter and I have written a new draft called &quot;Nu=
meric YANG Identifiers&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">which replaces the &quot;YANG Hash&quot; draft.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft combines hash-based and manual numbering =
and defines<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">a simple registry-based process for management of mo=
dule and object identifiers.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The need for a rehash procedure and rehash errors ha=
s been removed.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">YANG Hash is now scoped by the module identifier so =
there are no inter-module<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">interactions.=C2=A0 Hash collisions within a module =
are not allowed.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Manual assignments for colliding nodes are used to a=
void the rare occurrence<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">of a hash collision within the same module.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">---------- Forwarded me=
ssage ----------<br>
From: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:29 AM<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt<br>
To: Peter van der Stok &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:consultancy@vanderstok.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">consultancy@vanderstok.org</a>&gt;, Andy Bierman &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Andy Bierman and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-bierman-core-yid<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Numeric YANG Identifiers<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2016-08-16<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 33<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-bierman-core-yid-<wbr>00.tx=
t</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-bierman-core-yid-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<w=
br>draft-bierman-core-yid-00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes an encoding of YANG object identifiers=
 using<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0numeric values instead of string values.=C2=A0 It combines sev=
eral<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0techniques to provide optimized serialization in protocol mess=
ages.<br>
<br>
Note<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Discussion and suggestions for improvement are requested, and =
should<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0be sent to <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
core@ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
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From nobody Tue Aug 23 01:37:29 2016
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Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_Working_Group_Adoption_call_for_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-somaraju-core-sid?=
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	charset=utf-8

Dear all,

I want to confirm my support for the adoption of the document =
draft-somaraju-core-sid (a.k.a. the SID draft).

I do so for the following main reasons:
- We need a way to represent YANG identifiers for the =
draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor. The SID draft provides just this. We must =
adopt the document if we want to move forward with the work on this WG =
item.
- The SID draft is the result of more than a year and a half of =
discussions with people from CoRE, NETMOD, IANA and other SDOs.
- It is a straightforward and simple document, which provides the =
minimal structure on top of which IDs can be allocated.
- It provides for a way of having multiple independent registries, =
keeping all interoperable, and relieving IANA from the need to do =
overcomplicated, per-device allocations.
- Running code. There is a tool and a registry which are already used =
for prototyping.=20


The SID draft is aimed at:
- Interoperability (having devices with modules from different =
registries on a single network).=20

- Future-proof. The authors understand that today there are less than =
2000 YANG modules. Yet, the ranges which will be allocated are FOREVER. =
This means, that in 2046, we=E2=80=99ll still be allocating IDs from the =
ranges we provide today. Independently of the size of identifiers, =
delta-encoding provides for ultra-efficient data transfer. However, once =
we move over the 32-bit identifiers, we=E2=80=99ll be taking a 8-byte =
penalty hit per request. The SID draft provides for a very =
straightforward and simple way of allocating blocks of IDs as necessary =
for a module.

- Constrained-device and constrained-network oriented (if needed) - =
after months of discussions we have confirmed that the most efficient =
way of representing the data items is with delta-encoding. When =
retrieving more than one item, the IDs take one byte on the wire in most =
cases. The allocation of IDs can be manual, automatic, or other - this =
is not enforced. What the draft enables is the users to make use of this =
ultra-efficient identifier representation - if they need it.=20
  - If not needed - an alternative mapping scheme can be used, e.g. =
trading interoperability and ultra-efficiency for compatibility with =
existing implementations.


In conclusion, we need the SID draft to be able to move forward with our =
WG item - the YANG-CBOR draft.=20

Best,
Alexander

Disclaimer: I am one of the authors of the draft. I believe we could =
make adjustments after the adoption OR decide to have specific drafts =
for specific use-cases, but we should not spend too much time getting =
back-and-fourth in changing the WG draft.=20


> Le 15 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 17:06, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez =
<jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com> a =C3=A9crit :
>=20
> Dear CoRE-WG,
>=20
> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been =
requested for draft-somaraju-core-sid. At the IETF meeting the room =
consensus was for adoption (3 people), since not too many people had =
read the draft we have to take it to the list. Please reply with your =
comments, including although not limited to whether or not you support =
adoption. Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.
>=20
> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on =
August 26, 2016.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Jaime and Carsten
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


--Apple-Mail=_D7312D5B-EDF7-477E-85DC-1456F66A28BA
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Dear all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=
 want to confirm my support for the adoption of the document =
draft-somaraju-core-sid (a.k.a. the SID draft).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I do so for the following main =
reasons:</div><div class=3D"">- We need a way to represent YANG =
identifiers for the&nbsp;draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor. The SID draft =
provides just this. We must adopt the document if we want to move =
forward with the work on this WG item.</div><div class=3D"">- The SID =
draft is the result of more than a year and a half of discussions with =
people from CoRE, NETMOD, IANA and other SDOs.</div><div class=3D"">- It =
is a straightforward and simple document, which provides the minimal =
structure on top of which IDs can be allocated.</div><div class=3D"">- =
It provides for a way of having multiple independent registries, keeping =
all interoperable, and relieving IANA from the need to do =
overcomplicated, per-device allocations.</div><div class=3D"">- Running =
code. There is a tool and a registry which are already used for =
prototyping.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The SID draft is aimed =
at:</div><div class=3D"">- Interoperability (having devices with modules =
from different registries on a single network).&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Future-proof. The =
authors understand that today there are less than 2000 YANG modules. =
Yet, the ranges which will be allocated are FOREVER. This means, that in =
2046, we=E2=80=99ll still be allocating IDs from the ranges we provide =
today. Independently of the size of identifiers, delta-encoding provides =
for ultra-efficient data transfer. However, once we move over the 32-bit =
identifiers, we=E2=80=99ll be taking a 8-byte penalty hit per request. =
The SID draft provides for a very straightforward and simple way of =
allocating blocks of IDs as necessary for a module.</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- =
Constrained-device and constrained-network oriented (if needed) - after =
months of discussions we have confirmed that the most efficient way of =
representing the data items is with delta-encoding. When retrieving more =
than one item, the IDs take one byte on the wire in most cases. The =
allocation of IDs can be manual, automatic, or other - this is not =
enforced. What the draft enables is the users to make use of this =
ultra-efficient identifier representation - if they need =
it.&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - If not needed - an =
alternative mapping scheme can be used, e.g. trading interoperability =
and ultra-efficiency for compatibility with existing =
implementations.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In conclusion, we need =
the SID draft to be able to move forward with our WG item - the =
YANG-CBOR draft.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Best,</div><div class=3D"">Alexander</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Disclaimer: I am one of the authors of =
the draft. I believe we could make adjustments after the adoption OR =
decide to have specific drafts for specific use-cases, but we should not =
spend too much time getting back-and-fourth in changing the WG =
draft.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Le =
15 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 17:06, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D"">

<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Dear CoRE-WG,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been =
requested for draft-somaraju-core-sid. At the IETF meeting the room =
consensus was for adoption (3 people), since not too many people had =
read the draft we have to take it to the list.&nbsp;Please reply
 with your comments, including although not limited to whether or not =
you support adoption. Non-authors are especially&nbsp;encouraged to =
comment.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on <b =
class=3D"">
August 26, 2016</b>.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Thanks,<br class=3D"">
Jaime and Carsten
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">core =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2016 09:03:22 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHQ76cB-bAd737FabkX7vHKNx6m-8Q9WneUG_w3yTerReQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
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Cc: Core <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
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On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Michel Veillette <
Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy
>
>
>
> draft-bierman-core-yid-00 propose that only manually assigned YIDs
>
> are maintained in the registry (mapping list or mapping-url). YIDs
> associated to a
>
> hash are excluded from this registry.
>
>
>
> This solution doesn't seem to work if the following design objectives
> listed in
>
> section 1.2 need to be respected:
>
>
>
> 1- Persistent Identifiers: It is important that once an identifier is
>
> assigned, that is it never changed in any future revisions in the
>
> module.
>
>
>
> 1- Module updates need be simple, and only require the latest module
>
> and registry information.
>
>
>
> For example, YANG module X is created with:
>
> Data node A associated to YID =3D hash 1
>
> Data node B associated to YID =3D hash 2
>
> Data node C associated to YID =3D hash 3
>
>
>
> Than, a new revision is created with:
>
> Data node D associated to YID =3D hash 2
>
> Data node E associated to YID =3D hash 4
>
>
>
> Is this example, we have a hash clash between data node B and D.
>
> However, the YID assigned to data node B by version 1 is not allowed to
> change (objective #1).
>
> Only data node D can be rehashed.
>


So the manual entry will be for D, not B. not a problem.



>
>
> Using only the latest module (objection #2) and no entry in the registry,
> the proper rehash can't be performed.
>


Agreed. You do need the current registry entry to create
an update to that entry.




> A simple solution to this problem is to maintain all YIDs in the registry=
.
>
> A new entry is rehashed only if a clash is detected with an entry already
> present in the registry.
>


Agreed.
This also makes SID registry maintenance simple.
(Number only the nodes not already present in version N to produce N+1).

No matter how the YANG module can possibly be changed over time,
the path identifiers remain the same from version to version,
and therefore the hashes remain the same.




>
>
> In summary, the process is the same independently of the algorithm in use=
d
> (sequential, murmur3 hash, manual).
>


yes



> Each time an YID is assigned, it must be added to the registry.
>
> And new entries are not allowed to collide with entries already present i=
n
> the registry.
>
>
>
> The standard may describe these different algorithms (murmur3 hash,
> sequential, manual)
>
> but don=E2=80=99t need to mandate one.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michel
>
>
>

Andy


> *From:* core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Andy Bierman
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:39 PM
> *To:* Core <core@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [core] Fwd: New Version Notification for
> draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
>
>
>
> FYI,
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter and I have written a new draft called "Numeric YANG Identifiers"
>
> which replaces the "YANG Hash" draft.
>
>
>
> This draft combines hash-based and manual numbering and defines
>
> a simple registry-based process for management of module and object
> identifiers.
>
>
>
> The need for a rehash procedure and rehash errors has been removed.
>
> YANG Hash is now scoped by the module identifier so there are no
> inter-module
>
> interactions.  Hash collisions within a module are not allowed.
>
> Manual assignments for colliding nodes are used to avoid the rare
> occurrence
>
> of a hash collision within the same module.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:29 AM
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
> To: Peter van der Stok <consultancy@vanderstok.org>, Andy Bierman <
> andy@yumaworks.com>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Andy Bierman and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-bierman-core-yid
> Revision:       00
> Title:          Numeric YANG Identifiers
> Document date:  2016-08-16
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          33
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-
> drafts/draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bierman-core-yid-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This document describes an encoding of YANG object identifiers using
>    numeric values instead of string values.  It combines several
>    techniques to provide optimized serialization in protocol messages.
>
> Note
>
>    Discussion and suggestions for improvement are requested, and should
>    be sent to core@ietf.org.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Michel Veillette <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Mic=
hel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Andy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">draft-bierman-core-yid-00 propose th=
at only manually assigned YIDs<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">are maintained in the registry (mapp=
ing list or mapping-url). YIDs associated to a<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">hash are excluded from this registry=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">This solution doesn&#39;t seem to wo=
rk if the following design objectives listed in<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">section 1.2 need to be respected:<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">1- Persistent Identifiers: It is imp=
ortant that once an identifier is<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">assigned, that is it never changed i=
n any future revisions in the<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">module.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">1- Module updates need be simple, an=
d only require the latest module<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">and registry information.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">For example, YANG module X is create=
d with:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Data node A associated to YID =3D ha=
sh 1<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Data node B associated to YID =3D ha=
sh 2<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Data node C associated to YID =3D ha=
sh 3<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Than, a new revision is created with=
:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Data node D associated to YID =3D ha=
sh 2<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Data node E associated to YID =3D ha=
sh 4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Is this example, we have a hash clas=
h between data node B and D.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">However, the YID assigned to data no=
de B by version 1 is not allowed to change (objective #1).<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Only data node D can be rehashed.</s=
pan></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>So the =
manual entry will be for D, not B. not a problem.</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue=
" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Using only the latest module (object=
ion #2) and no entry in the registry, the proper rehash can&#39;t be perfor=
med.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
Agreed. You do need the current registry entry to create</div><div>an updat=
e to that entry.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">A simple solution to this problem is=
 to maintain all YIDs in the registry.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">A new entry is rehashed only if a cl=
ash is detected with an entry already present in the registry.</span></p></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Agreed.</div><div=
>This also makes SID registry maintenance simple.</div><div>(Number only th=
e nodes not already present in version N to produce N+1).</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>No matter how the YANG module can possibly be changed over time,</d=
iv><div>the path identifiers remain the same from version to version,</div>=
<div>and therefore the hashes remain the same.</div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN=
-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">In summary, the process is the same =
independently of the algorithm in used (sequential, murmur3 hash, manual).<=
/span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>yes</=
div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Each time an YID is assigned, it mus=
t be added to the registry.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">And new entries are not allowed to c=
ollide with entries already present in the registry.<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">The standard may describe these diff=
erent algorithms (murmur3 hash, sequential, manual)<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">but don=E2=80=99t need to mandate on=
e.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Michel<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> core [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:core-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">core-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andy Bierman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Core &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">core=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [core] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core=
-yid-00.txt<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">FYI,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Peter and I have written a new draft called &quot;Nu=
meric YANG Identifiers&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">which replaces the &quot;YANG Hash&quot; draft.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft combines hash-based and manual numbering =
and defines<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">a simple registry-based process for management of mo=
dule and object identifiers.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The need for a rehash procedure and rehash errors ha=
s been removed.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">YANG Hash is now scoped by the module identifier so =
there are no inter-module<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">interactions.=C2=A0 Hash collisions within a module =
are not allowed.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Manual assignments for colliding nodes are used to a=
void the rare occurrence<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">of a hash collision within the same module.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">---------- Forwarded =
message ----------<br>
From: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:29 AM<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt<br>
To: Peter van der Stok &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:consultancy@vanderstok.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">consultancy@vanderstok.org</a>&gt;, Andy Bierman &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Andy Bierman and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-bierman-core-yid<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Numeric YANG Identifiers<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2016-08-16<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 33<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-bierman-core-yid-<wbr>00.tx=
t</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-bierman-core-yid-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<w=
br>draft-bierman-core-yid-00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes an encoding of YANG object identifiers=
 using<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0numeric values instead of string values.=C2=A0 It combines sev=
eral<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0techniques to provide optimized serialization in protocol mess=
ages.<br>
<br>
Note<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Discussion and suggestions for improvement are requested, and =
should<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0be sent to <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
core@ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c18f30ae3816f053abf4d32--


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From: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
To: Core <core@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-veillette-core-cool-library-00.txt
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--_000_B5A2347E7F744272920A17E99FE572ADlandisgyrcom_--


From nobody Tue Aug 23 23:39:55 2016
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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 08:39:47 +0200
From: peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl>
To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_Working_Group_Adoption_call_for_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-somaraju-core-sid?=
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Some comments based on the arguments below:

> This draft is a prerequisite for the following works:
> 
> - CBOR encoding of YANG data model
> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor/)
I have argued already for some time that the text about SIDs does not 
belong in the yang to cbor draft.
It reduces its independence from the CoMI work.
Given that CBOR is not to be changed, Putting the SID text in a content 
format draft seems more appropriate.
> 
> The alternate assignment algorithm of IDs based on murmur3 and
> improved description texts  proposed by Andy in
> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/) don't
> fundamentally change the registration process defined by the SID draft.

I should like to wait till this agreement is visible on this mailing 
list.

Peter


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Dear Peter,

> Le 24 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 08:39, peter van der Stok =
<stokcons@xs4all.nl> a =C3=A9crit :
>=20
> Some comments based on the arguments below:
>=20
>> This draft is a prerequisite for the following works:
>> - CBOR encoding of YANG data model
>> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor/)
> I have argued already for some time that the text about SIDs does not =
belong in the yang to cbor draft.
> It reduces its independence from the CoMI work.
> Given that CBOR is not to be changed, Putting the SID text in a =
content format draft seems more appropriate.

There are two types of identifiers supported by =
draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor - textual (for full compatibility with =
RESTConf/NETCONF names) and delta-encoded integers (a.k.a. SIDs). The =
former could be used when network constraints are not so stringent, =
while the latter is the preferred way of using this encoding in =
constrained networks.

We should keep it simple. Having several content formats to express the =
same thing - especially when this is not necessary - is adding =
complexity for no reason.=20

The SID draft allows for having ranges of SIDs be managed by independent =
registries and have different rules of assignment. No need to use =
different Content Formats necessary to solve overlapping of the integer =
values. Moreover, as of the time of this writing, we have 3 different =
Content-Formats for the CoOL/CoMI draft. Adding an alternative =
Content-Format for the interpretation of the integers would multiply =
this by 2, e.g. 6 content formats, where half are doing the same thing.

If you have a server with mixed modules (e.g. ones using SID and ones =
using a different interpretation of the IDs), the Content-Format will =
force you to chose ONE or ANOTHER. There is no possibility in one =
request to read or write values from different modules. This effectively =
removes all interoperability between the two, making one of the two =
redundant.=20

Best,
Alexander



>> The alternate assignment algorithm of IDs based on murmur3 and
>> improved description texts  proposed by Andy in
>> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/) don't
>> fundamentally change the registration process defined by the SID =
draft.
>=20
> I should like to wait till this agreement is visible on this mailing =
list.
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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I think the document reads well and I only have a few minor comments. 
Please address them (or at least discuss them) before the end of IETF 
Last Call, which I am going to start now:

I think response code 4.15 should be mentioned in Section 2 and not just 
in the IANA Considerations section. I am generally missing Error 
handling section for the FETCH method, similarly to what you have for 
PATCH/iPATCH.

draft-hartke-core-apps-03 is mentioned several times in the document. It 
is currently expired. What is the plan with getting it finished?

Nit: It looks like RFC 6902 and RFC 7396 should be Normative (IANA 
Registrations).

Obsolete reference: RFC 2616. You also need to update section references 
you use when referencing RFC 2616 to point to the correct section and 
RFC from the latest HTTP/1.1 set of RFCs.

Best Regards,
Alexey


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On 24/08/2016 11:15, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

> Obsolete reference: RFC 2616. You also need to update section 
> references you use when referencing RFC 2616 to point to the correct 
> section and RFC from the latest HTTP/1.1 set of RFCs.
I now saw some text about this in the shepherding write-up, sorry for 
not checking earlier. I will try to find out if there is a better 
reference here.



From nobody Wed Aug 24 06:13:28 2016
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Subject: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> (Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)) to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the Constrained RESTful Environments
WG (core) to consider the following document:
- 'Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)'
  <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2016-09-07. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   The existing Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) methods only
   allow access to a complete resource, not to parts of a resource.  In
   case of resources with larger or complex data, or in situations where
   a resource continuity is required, replacing or requesting the whole
   resource is undesirable.  Several applications using CoAP will need
   to perform partial resource accesses.

   Similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)
   GET method only allows the specification of a URI and request
   parameters in CoAP options, not the transfer of a request payload
   detailing the request.  This leads to some applications to using POST
   where actually a cacheable, idempotent, safe request is desired.

   Again similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol
   (CoAP) PUT method only allows to replace a complete resource.  This
   also leads applications to use POST where actually a cacheable,
   possibly idempotent request is desired.

   This specification adds new CoAP methods, FETCH, to perform the
   equivalent of a GET with a request body; and the twin methods PATCH
   and iPATCH, to modify parts of a CoAP resource.

The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-etch/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-etch/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.

The document has a reference to obsolete RFC 2616, this is intentional.


From nobody Wed Aug 24 06:20:26 2016
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Subject: Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> (Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)) to Proposed Standard
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Hello,
  found strange the abstract below.

On 24 Aug 2016, at 9:13, The IESG wrote:

> The IESG has received a request from the Constrained RESTful Environments
> WG (core) to consider the following document:
> - 'Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)'
>   <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> as Proposed Standard
>
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2016-09-07. Exceptionally, comments may be
> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
> beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>
> Abstract
>
>
>    The existing Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) methods only
>    allow access to a complete resource, not to parts of a resource.  In
>    case of resources with larger or complex data, or in situations where
>    a resource continuity is required, replacing or requesting the whole
>    resource is undesirable.  Several applications using CoAP will need
>    to perform partial resource accesses.
>
>    Similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)
>    GET method only allows the specification of a URI and request
>    parameters in CoAP options, not the transfer of a request payload
>    detailing the request.  This leads to some applications to using POST

s/POST/GET/  or do I need more coffee?

Marc.

>    where actually a cacheable, idempotent, safe request is desired.
>
>    Again similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol
>    (CoAP) PUT method only allows to replace a complete resource.  This
>    also leads applications to use POST where actually a cacheable,
>    possibly idempotent request is desired.
>
>    This specification adds new CoAP methods, FETCH, to perform the
>    equivalent of a GET with a request body; and the twin methods PATCH
>    and iPATCH, to modify parts of a CoAP resource.
>
> The file can be obtained via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-etch/
>
> IESG discussion can be tracked via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-etch/ballot/
>
>
> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
>
> The document has a reference to obsolete RFC 2616, this is intentional.


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From nobody Wed Aug 24 08:51:11 2016
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From: peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl>
To: Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>
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Subject: Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> (Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)) to Proposed Standard
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>> 
>>    Similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol 
>> (CoAP)
>>    GET method only allows the specification of a URI and request
>>    parameters in CoAP options, not the transfer of a request payload
>>    detailing the request.  This leads to some applications to using 
>> POST
> 
> s/POST/GET/  or do I need more coffee?
> 
> Marc.
> 

May be something stronger?

My apologies, I hope this is a copy/paste confusion coming from a lack 
of coffee.

Peter


From nobody Wed Aug 24 09:32:26 2016
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Subject: Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> (Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)) to Proposed Standard
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> On Aug 24, 2016, at 6:13 AM, The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> The IESG has received a request from the Constrained RESTful Environments
> WG (core) to consider the following document:
> - 'Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)'
>  <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> as Proposed Standard
> 
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2016-09-07. Exceptionally, comments may be
> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
> beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
> 
> Abstract
> 
> 
>   The existing Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) methods only
>   allow access to a complete resource, not to parts of a resource.  In
>   case of resources with larger or complex data, or in situations where
>   a resource continuity is required, replacing or requesting the whole
>   resource is undesirable.  Several applications using CoAP will need
>   to perform partial resource accesses.
> 
>   Similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)
>   GET method only allows the specification of a URI and request
>   parameters in CoAP options, not the transfer of a request payload
>   detailing the request.  This leads to some applications to using POST
>   where actually a cacheable, idempotent, safe request is desired.
> 
>   Again similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol
>   (CoAP) PUT method only allows to replace a complete resource.  This
>   also leads applications to use POST where actually a cacheable,
>   possibly idempotent request is desired.
> 
>   This specification adds new CoAP methods, FETCH, to perform the
>   equivalent of a GET with a request body; and the twin methods PATCH
>   and iPATCH, to modify parts of a CoAP resource.
> 
> The file can be obtained via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-etch/
> 
> IESG discussion can be tracked via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-etch/ballot/
> 
> 
> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
> 
> The document has a reference to obsolete RFC 2616, this is intentional.

What is that supposed to mean?  The reference is intentionally wrong?

I looked at the text and it should be referencing section 9 of RFC7231,
not section 15 of RFC2616.  Just fix the reference or remove it entirely
(since RFC7252 already forked HTTP semantics for no reason whatsoever).

....Roy


From nobody Wed Aug 24 09:53:48 2016
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From: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Thread-Topic: draft-bierman-core-yid-00 open questions
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Subject: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00 open questions
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Hi Andy

Following if my answers to the questions listed in draft-bierman-core-yid-0=
0

1) When to assign a module-id

Developers should be in control of when this activity is performed based on=
 the estimated amount of work required to reassign IDs (from temporary assi=
gned IDs within the experimental range to the final IDs) and the impacts on=
 the encoding efficiency of assigning a non stable list of YANG items which=
 generate non sequential IDs. If the developer already own a range of YID/S=
ID, the activity can be perform at any time.

It is important to note that the registration of the resulting .sid file(s)=
 is done independently of the registration of the SID range. When registeri=
ng a SID range, the module or list of modules targeted is not provided. Thi=
s give the full freedom to developers to assign IDs when needed.

2) How to support private numbering

A range called "Experimental" spanning both the 16 and 32 bits unsigned int=
eger have been assigned to this purpose.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-7.1

3) How to combine registries

Not needed, all registrars, SDO shall receive a specific range from IANA.

4) Should more YANG statements be numbered

Yes
rpc, action, notification, module, submodule, feature

5a) How to support anyxml

anyxml represents a single data node with an arbitrary content.
This data node have a single ID assigned to it the same way as any other da=
ta node, nothing special is required.

5b) How to support anydata

The anydata define an instance of an unspecified schema node (leaf, leaf-li=
st, container, list).
All possible schema node supported by an anydata need to be register to one=
 of the .sid files.
It is the responsibility of the developer(s) to add these SIDs to one or mu=
ltiple .sid files manually if not already present.
A section need to be added to the draft to clearly describe this approach.

Regards,
Michel Veillette


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From: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
To: Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
Thread-Topic: Name support in draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor?
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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 18:31:55 +0000
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Subject: [core] Name support in draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor?
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From nobody Wed Aug 24 13:35:25 2016
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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 16:35:26 -0400
From: David Reid <reid@snmp.com>
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Subject: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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I read draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt and have a few questions.

Will all IETF standard yang modules be included in the YANG identifier 
registry or just ones that might be used on constrained devices? 

In order to assign numbers, is it correct that I need the first revision of 
the module or else the current revision and the registry assignments for the 
previous revision?

What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over sequentially 
assigning values? 

When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the value
to get a unique number so that we never have to manually assign numbers and
thus never need to register the numbers in the registry?

Why does module-id need to be added to the YANG module names registry since
it is also in the YANG identifier registry? 

Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module with a yid 
extension so that I would not have to go lookup that information from a 
registry? 

Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information in the 
module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the revision date. 
That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained in a 
registry.

If I want to handle private modules, do I have to create my own registry?
It seems important that private modules be supported. Could we re-use the
SMI enterprise number assignments for creating module-ids for private modules?

Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working group that 
defines the YANG module?

-David Reid


From nobody Wed Aug 24 13:48:20 2016
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 13:48:16 -0700
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To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00 open questions
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--94eb2c123794948c0c053ad76669
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Michel Veillette <
Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy
>
> Following if my answers to the questions listed in
> draft-bierman-core-yid-00
>
> 1) When to assign a module-id
>
> Developers should be in control of when this activity is performed based
> on the estimated amount of work required to reassign IDs (from temporary
> assigned IDs within the experimental range to the final IDs) and the
> impacts on the encoding efficiency of assigning a non stable list of YANG
> items which generate non sequential IDs. If the developer already own a
> range of YID/SID, the activity can be perform at any time.
>
> It is important to note that the registration of the resulting .sid
> file(s) is done independently of the registration of the SID range. When
> registering a SID range, the module or list of modules targeted is not
> provided. This give the full freedom to developers to assign IDs when
> needed.
>
>
I think the registration process issues are the same whether a module-id or
a range is allocated.


2) How to support private numbering
>
> A range called "Experimental" spanning both the 16 and 32 bits unsigned
> integer have been assigned to this purpose.
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-7.1



Yes, it seems trivial to assign a range for temporary numbers.



>
>
> 3) How to combine registries
>
> Not needed, all registrars, SDO shall receive a specific range from IANA.
>


OK, so there is a tiered registration process?
And there will not be a land-grab for all the numbers?
Not clear to me how IANA approves allocation requests.



> 4) Should more YANG statements be numbered
>
> Yes
> rpc, action, notification, module, submodule, feature
>
>
Numbering submodule and feature?
These are conceptual statements within the schema language and
do not affect anything on the wire.



> 5a) How to support anyxml
>
> anyxml represents a single data node with an arbitrary content.
> This data node have a single ID assigned to it the same way as any other
> data node, nothing special is required.
>
>

    anyxml foo;


    { "foo" : {
         "bar": 42;
         "baz" "fred",
         "a-list" : [
            ....
         ]
       }
     }


So what numbers do you give to bar,, baz, a-list, etc.?
They are all numbered the same as foo?
That will be decoded with all nodes named foo, all anyxml.
The name, type, value info contained in anyxml and anydata
instances have no schema.  These nodes cannot be numbered.
This is a YANG-to-CBOR issue, not a SID issue.

But in real YANG these child nodes sometimes represent real objects
from some other module.  In this case the server may know the "hidden SID".

http://www.netconfcentral.org/modules/yuma-ncx/2013-09-23#root.554





> 5b) How to support anydata
>
> The anydata define an instance of an unspecified schema node (leaf,
> leaf-list, container, list).
> All possible schema node supported by an anydata need to be register to
> one of the .sid files.
> It is the responsibility of the developer(s) to add these SIDs to one or
> multiple .sid files manually if not already present.
> A section need to be added to the draft to clearly describe this approach.
>
> Regards,
> Michel Veillette
>
>

Andy

--94eb2c123794948c0c053ad76669
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Michel Veillette <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Mic=
hel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
Hi Andy<br>
<br>
Following if my answers to the questions listed in draft-bierman-core-yid-0=
0<br>
<br>
1) When to assign a module-id<br>
<br>
Developers should be in control of when this activity is performed based on=
 the estimated amount of work required to reassign IDs (from temporary assi=
gned IDs within the experimental range to the final IDs) and the impacts on=
 the encoding efficiency of assigning a non stable list of YANG items which=
 generate non sequential IDs. If the developer already own a range of YID/S=
ID, the activity can be perform at any time.<br>
<br>
It is important to note that the registration of the resulting .sid file(s)=
 is done independently of the registration of the SID range. When registeri=
ng a SID range, the module or list of modules targeted is not provided. Thi=
s give the full freedom to developers to assign IDs when needed.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think the registration process issue=
s are the same whether a module-id or a range is allocated.</div><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);borde=
r-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
2) How to support private numbering<br>
<br>
A range called &quot;Experimental&quot; spanning both the 16 and 32 bits un=
signed integer have been assigned to this purpose.<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-7=
.1" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>d=
raft-somaraju-core-sid-01#<wbr>section-7.1</a></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>Yes, it seems trivial to assign a range for temporary nu=
mbers.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-colo=
r:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
3) How to combine registries<br>
<br>
Not needed, all registrars, SDO shall receive a specific range from IANA.<b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>OK, so there is a tiered =
registration process?</div><div>And there will not be a land-grab for all t=
he numbers?</div><div>Not clear to me how IANA approves allocation requests=
.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4) Should more YANG statements be numbered<br>
<br>
Yes<br>
rpc, action, notification, module, submodule, feature<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Numbering submodule and feature?</div>=
<div>These are conceptual statements within the schema language and</div><d=
iv>do not affect anything on the wire.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;=
padding-left:1ex">
5a) How to support anyxml<br>
<br>
anyxml represents a single data node with an arbitrary content.<br>
This data node have a single ID assigned to it the same way as any other da=
ta node, nothing special is required.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 anyxml fo=
o;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 { &quot;foo&quot; =
: {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;bar&quot;: 42;</div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;baz&quot; &quot;fred&quot;,</di=
v><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;a-list&quot; : [</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ....</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0]</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>So what numbers do y=
ou give to bar,, baz, a-list, etc.?</div><div>They are all numbered the sam=
e as foo?</div><div>That will be decoded with all nodes named foo, all anyx=
ml.</div><div>The name, type, value info contained in anyxml and anydata</d=
iv><div>instances have no schema.=C2=A0 These nodes cannot be numbered.</di=
v><div>This is a YANG-to-CBOR issue, not a SID issue.</div><div><br></div><=
div>But in real YANG these child nodes sometimes represent real objects</di=
v><div>from some other module.=C2=A0 In this case the server may know the &=
quot;hidden SID&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://www.netco=
nfcentral.org/modules/yuma-ncx/2013-09-23#root.554">http://www.netconfcentr=
al.org/modules/yuma-ncx/2013-09-23#root.554</a><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-=
left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
5b) How to support anydata<br>
<br>
The anydata define an instance of an unspecified schema node (leaf, leaf-li=
st, container, list).<br>
All possible schema node supported by an anydata need to be register to one=
 of the .sid files.<br>
It is the responsibility of the developer(s) to add these SIDs to one or mu=
ltiple .sid files manually if not already present.<br>
A section need to be added to the draft to clearly describe this approach.<=
br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Michel Veillette<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>

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Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments of the IETF.

        Title           : CoAP (Constrained Application Protocol) over TCP, TLS, and WebSockets
        Authors         : Carsten Bormann
                          Simon Lemay
                          Hannes Tschofenig
                          Klaus Hartke
                          Bilhanan Silverajan
                          Brian Raymor
	Filename        : draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04.txt
	Pages           : 42
	Date            : 2016-08-24

Abstract:
   The Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP), although inspired by
   HTTP, was designed to use UDP instead of TCP.  The message layer of
   the CoAP over UDP protocol includes support for reliable delivery,
   simple congestion control, and flow control.

   Some environments benefit from the availability of CoAP carried over
   reliable transports such as TCP or TLS.  This document outlines the
   changes required to use CoAP over TCP, TLS, and WebSockets
   transports.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Brian Raymor <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>
To: "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04.txt
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/UqUiYoDxu-M03K1lAfQ2DJkmeWg>
Subject: Re: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04.txt
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-04 addresses all the issues discussed at IETF 96 - with the exception of h=
ttps://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/5. The authors are discussing=
 the scope for a section related to RFC7641 (Observing resources ...).

In addition, I opened a new issue related to mandatory exchange of CSM - ht=
tps://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/58 - where feedback would be h=
elpful.

Both of these issues are targeted for -05.

...Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf=
.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:09 PM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: core@ietf.org
Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments of the IE=
TF.

        Title           : CoAP (Constrained Application Protocol) over TCP,=
 TLS, and WebSockets
        Authors         : Carsten Bormann
                          Simon Lemay
                          Hannes Tschofenig
                          Klaus Hartke
                          Bilhanan Silverajan
                          Brian Raymor
	Filename        : draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04.txt
	Pages           : 42
	Date            : 2016-08-24

Abstract:
   The Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP), although inspired by
   HTTP, was designed to use UDP instead of TCP.  The message layer of
   the CoAP over UDP protocol includes support for reliable delivery,
   simple congestion control, and flow control.

   Some environments benefit from the availability of CoAP carried over
   reliable transports such as TCP or TLS.  This document outlines the
   changes required to use CoAP over TCP, TLS, and WebSockets
   transports.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
core mailing list
core@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 14:22:47 -0700
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Cc: Core <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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--001a114584d009478b053ad7e218
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On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 1:35 PM, David Reid <reid@snmp.com> wrote:

> I read draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt and have a few questions.
>
> Will all IETF standard yang modules be included in the YANG identifier
> registry or just ones that might be used on constrained devices?
>


I think all modules.
We want to support unconstrained devices on constrained networks.



>
> In order to assign numbers, is it correct that I need the first revision of
> the module or else the current revision and the registry assignments for
> the
> previous revision?
>


I think in all numbering schemes (as Michel pointed out) you need
the current registration entry and the new module revision.



>
> What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over sequentially
> assigning values?
>

There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of mappings.
Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on
the object to number mapping.  Detecting these issues is very difficult.

The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string,
which is permanent and cannot change no matter how the
YANG is refactored.  The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.
There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree
on the hashes (except for collisions)


>
> When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the value
> to get a unique number so that we never have to manually assign numbers and
> thus never need to register the numbers in the registry?
>


yes, this has been suggested.
The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.
Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.


>
> Why does module-id need to be added to the YANG module names registry since
> it is also in the YANG identifier registry?
>


I guess it is not needed since the module name is in both registries already



>
> Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module with a yid
> extension so that I would not have to go lookup that information from a
> registry?
>


I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste errors?


>
> Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information in the
> module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the revision date.
> That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained in a
> registry.
>
>

I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved for
temporary
assignments.

How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?



> If I want to handle private modules, do I have to create my own registry?
> It seems important that private modules be supported. Could we re-use the
> SMI enterprise number assignments for creating module-ids for private
> modules?
>

The ietf-yid module has a schema for the entire registry.
How to use the registry is a protocol issue that needs to be decided.
If the server advertises  its own registry vs. a public registry,
then it is using a private registry.  If all devices in the system agree
on which registry to use, then everything works.


> Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working group
> that
> defines the YANG module?
>

I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for
some modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then
manual numbering could be done instead by the WG.


>
> -David Reid
>

Andy


>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>

--001a114584d009478b053ad7e218
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 1:35 PM, David Reid <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:reid@snmp.com" target=3D"_blank">reid@snmp.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I read draft-bierman-core-yid-00.t=
xt and have a few questions.<br>
<br>
Will all IETF standard yang modules be included in the YANG identifier<br>
registry or just ones that might be used on constrained devices?<br></block=
quote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think all modules.</div><div>We =
want to support unconstrained devices on constrained networks.<br></div><di=
v><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
In order to assign numbers, is it correct that I need the first revision of=
<br>
the module or else the current revision and the registry assignments for th=
e<br>
previous revision?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I thi=
nk in all numbering schemes (as Michel pointed out) you need</div><div>the =
current registration entry and the new module revision.</div><div><br></div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over sequentially<br>
assigning values?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There is overhead ir =
reading and processing a giant list of mappings.</div><div>Automatic assign=
ment is risky because both sides need to agree on</div><div>the object to n=
umber mapping.=C2=A0 Detecting these issues is very difficult.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string,</d=
iv><div>which is permanent and cannot change no matter how the</div><div>YA=
NG is refactored.=C2=A0 The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.</div><div>Th=
ere is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree</div><div>on=
 the hashes (except for collisions)</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<br>
When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the value<br=
>
to get a unique number so that we never have to manually assign numbers and=
<br>
thus never need to register the numbers in the registry?<br></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div><div>yes, this has been suggested.</div><div>Th=
e problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.</div><div>No=
w those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Why does module-id need to be added to the YANG module names registry since=
<br>
it is also in the YANG identifier registry?<br></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><div><br></div><div>I guess it is not needed since the module name is in =
both registries already</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
<br>
Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module with a yid<=
br>
extension so that I would not have to go lookup that information from a<br>
registry?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I suppose -- b=
ut how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste errors?</div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information in the<br=
>
module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the revision date.<br=
>
That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained in a<br>
registry.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think private module-=
id would be better, using a range reserved for temporary</div><div>assignme=
nts.</div><div><br></div><div>How do you resolve hash collisions for module=
-id?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
If I want to handle private modules, do I have to create my own registry?<b=
r>
It seems important that private modules be supported. Could we re-use the<b=
r>
SMI enterprise number assignments for creating module-ids for private modul=
es?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The ietf-yid module has a schema fo=
r the entire registry.</div><div>How to use the registry is a protocol issu=
e that needs to be decided.</div><div>If the server advertises =C2=A0its ow=
n registry vs. a public registry,<br></div><div>then it is using a private =
registry.=C2=A0 If all devices in the system agree</div><div>on which regis=
try to use, then everything works.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">
<br>
Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working group tha=
t<br>
defines the YANG module?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would expect=
 IETF modules to use hashes by default but for</div><div>some modules that =
seem useful to constrained devices, then</div><div>manual numbering could b=
e done instead by the WG.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">
<br>
-David Reid<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
core mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/core</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a114584d009478b053ad7e218--


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 15:34:07 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHSzfwe9A0BW_H4BBnnnfm7+ZQUF4BX93jVNnLVb8nZ1gw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
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Cc: "core@ietf.org WG" <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00 open questions
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--94eb2c05c5de1e0efd053ad8e114
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On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@
trilliantinc.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy
>
>
>
> My comments inline [MV]
>
>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@yumaworks.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 24, 2016 4:48 PM
> *To:* Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
> *Cc:* core@ietf.org WG <core@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: draft-bierman-core-yid-00 open questions
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Michel Veillette <
> Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Andy
>
> Following if my answers to the questions listed in
> draft-bierman-core-yid-00
>
> 1) When to assign a module-id
>
> Developers should be in control of when this activity is performed based
> on the estimated amount of work required to reassign IDs (from temporary
> assigned IDs within the experimental range to the final IDs) and the
> impacts on the encoding efficiency of assigning a non stable list of YANG
> items which generate non sequential IDs. If the developer already own a
> range of YID/SID, the activity can be perform at any time.
>
> It is important to note that the registration of the resulting .sid
> file(s) is done independently of the registration of the SID range. When
> registering a SID range, the module or list of modules targeted is not
> provided. This give the full freedom to developers to assign IDs when
> needed.
>
>
>
> I think the registration process issues are the same whether a module-id
> or a range is allocated.
>
>
>
> [MV] Not exactly, registering a module-id imply that you need to know the
> module information in advance.
>
> [MV] If you register a range, you can assign this range as needed to one
> or multiple modules.
>
> [MV] You don=E2=80=99t need to go back to the registrar each time you cre=
ate a new
> module.
>
>
>

But it's not like anybody can use the numbers without knowing how they are
assigned.


Andy

2) How to support private numbering
>
> A range called "Experimental" spanning both the 16 and 32 bits unsigned
> integer have been assigned to this purpose.
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-7.1
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, it seems trivial to assign a range for temporary numbers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 3) How to combine registries
>
> Not needed, all registrars, SDO shall receive a specific range from IANA.
>
>
>
>
>
> OK, so there is a tiered registration process?
>
> And there will not be a land-grab for all the numbers?
>
> Not clear to me how IANA approves allocation requests.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 4) Should more YANG statements be numbered
>
> Yes
> rpc, action, notification, module, submodule, feature
>
>
>
> Numbering submodule and feature?
>
> These are conceptual statements within the schema language and
>
> do not affect anything on the wire.
>
>
>
> [MV] SID assigned to submodules and features are required to support
> discovery
>
> [MV] See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-veillette-core-cool-librar
> y-00#section-3.1
>
>
>
> 5a) How to support anyxml
>
> anyxml represents a single data node with an arbitrary content.
> This data node have a single ID assigned to it the same way as any other
> data node, nothing special is required.
>
>
>
>
>
>     anyxml foo;
>
>
>
>
>
>     { "foo" : {
>
>          "bar": 42;
>
>          "baz" "fred",
>
>          "a-list" : [
>
>             ....
>
>          ]
>
>        }
>
>      }
>
>
>
>
>
> So what numbers do you give to bar,, baz, a-list, etc.?
>
> They are all numbered the same as foo?
>
> That will be decoded with all nodes named foo, all anyxml.
>
> The name, type, value info contained in anyxml and anydata
>
> instances have no schema.  These nodes cannot be numbered.
>
> This is a YANG-to-CBOR issue, not a SID issue.
>
>
>
> But in real YANG these child nodes sometimes represent real objects
>
> from some other module.  In this case the server may know the "hidden SID=
".
>
>
>
> http://www.netconfcentral.org/modules/yuma-ncx/2013-09-23#root.554
>
>
>
> [MV] If the inner members of this CBOR map need to associated to SID, the
> developer will need to assign these SIDs as described in 5b.
>
> [MV] If this is the case, the author should have used an anydata.
>
> [MV] Normally, an anyxml contain an arbitrary CBOR content which have
> nothing to do with YANG and SIDs.
>
> [MV] This is the approach proposed by "draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json" and
> reused by "draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor"
>
>
>
>
>
> 5b) How to support anydata
>
> The anydata define an instance of an unspecified schema node (leaf,
> leaf-list, container, list).
> All possible schema node supported by an anydata need to be register to
> one of the .sid files.
> It is the responsibility of the developer(s) to add these SIDs to one or
> multiple .sid files manually if not already present.
> A section need to be added to the draft to clearly describe this approach=
.
>
> Regards,
> Michel Veillette
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>

--94eb2c05c5de1e0efd053ad8e114
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Michel Veillette <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Mic=
hel.Veillette@<wbr>trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Andy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">My comments inline [MV]<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Andy Bierman [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 24, 2016 4:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michel Veillette &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trillian=
tinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc<wbr>.com</a>&gt;<=
br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">core@ietf.org=
</a> WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">core@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: draft-bierman-core-yid-00 open questions<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Michel Veillette &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Mi=
chel.Veillette@trilliantinc<wbr>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Andy<br>
<br>
Following if my answers to the questions listed in draft-bierman-core-yid-0=
0<br>
<br>
1) When to assign a module-id<br>
<br>
Developers should be in control of when this activity is performed based on=
 the estimated amount of work required to reassign IDs (from temporary assi=
gned IDs within the experimental range to the final IDs) and the impacts on=
 the encoding efficiency of assigning
 a non stable list of YANG items which generate non sequential IDs. If the =
developer already own a range of YID/SID, the activity can be perform at an=
y time.<br>
<br>
It is important to note that the registration of the resulting .sid file(s)=
 is done independently of the registration of the SID range. When registeri=
ng a SID range, the module or list of modules targeted is not provided. Thi=
s give the full freedom to developers
 to assign IDs when needed.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the registration process issues are the same=
 whether a module-id or a range is allocated.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">[MV] Not exactly, registering a module-id imply tha=
t you need to know the module information in advance.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">[MV] If you register a range, you can assign this r=
ange as needed to one or multiple modules.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">[MV] You don=E2=80=99t need to go back to the regis=
trar each time you create a new module.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0</p></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But it&#39;s not like anybody can use the=
 numbers without knowing how they are assigned.</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div l=
ang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div><div><div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2) How to support private numbering<br>
<br>
A range called &quot;Experimental&quot; spanning both the 16 and 32 bits un=
signed integer have been assigned to this purpose.<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-7=
.1" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-somaraju-core-=
sid-01#secti<wbr>on-7.1</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yes, it seems trivial to assign a range for temporar=
y numbers.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
3) How to combine registries<br>
<br>
Not needed, all registrars, SDO shall receive a specific range from IANA.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OK, so there is a tiered registration process?<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And there will not be a land-grab for all the number=
s?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not clear to me how IANA approves allocation request=
s.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
4) Should more YANG statements be numbered<br>
<br>
Yes<br>
rpc, action, notification, module, submodule, feature<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Numbering submodule and feature?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These are conceptual statements within the schema la=
nguage and<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">do not affect anything on the wire.<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">[MV] SID assigned to submodules and features are re=
quired to support discovery<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">[MV] See
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-veillette-core-cool-library-00=
#section-3.1" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-veillette-core-cool-librar<wbr>y-00#=
section-3.1</a> <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">5a) How to support an=
yxml<br>
<br>
anyxml represents a single data node with an arbitrary content.<br>
This data node have a single ID assigned to it the same way as any other da=
ta node, nothing special is required.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 anyxml foo;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 { &quot;foo&quot; : {<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;bar&quot;: 4=
2;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;baz&quot; &q=
uot;fred&quot;,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;a-list&quot;=
 : [<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ....<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0]<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So what numbers do you give to bar,, baz, a-list, et=
c.?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">They are all numbered the same as foo?<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That will be decoded with all nodes named foo, all a=
nyxml.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The name, type, value info contained in anyxml and a=
nydata<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">instances have no schema.=C2=A0 These nodes cannot b=
e numbered.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is a YANG-to-CBOR issue, not a SID issue.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But in real YANG these child nodes sometimes represe=
nt real objects<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">from some other module.=C2=A0 In this case the serve=
r may know the &quot;hidden SID&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.netconfcentral.org/modules/yum=
a-ncx/2013-09-23#root.554" target=3D"_blank">http://www.netconfcentral.org/=
<wbr>modules/yuma-ncx/2013-09-23#ro<wbr>ot.554</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[MV] If the inner members of this CBOR map need to a=
ssociated to SID, the developer will need to assign these SIDs as described=
 in 5b.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[MV] If this is the case, the author should have use=
d an anydata.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[MV] Normally, an anyxml contain an arbitrary CBOR c=
ontent which have nothing to do with YANG and SIDs.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[MV] This is the approach proposed by &quot;draft-ie=
tf-netmod-yang-json&quot; and reused by &quot;draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor&quo=
t;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">5b) How to support an=
ydata<br>
<br>
The anydata define an instance of an unspecified schema node (leaf, leaf-li=
st, container, list).<br>
All possible schema node supported by an anydata need to be register to one=
 of the .sid files.<br>
It is the responsibility of the developer(s) to add these SIDs to one or mu=
ltiple .sid files manually if not already present.<br>
A section need to be added to the draft to clearly describe this approach.<=
br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Michel Veillette<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c05c5de1e0efd053ad8e114--


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From nobody Wed Aug 24 20:24:36 2016
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From: David Reid <reid@snmp.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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>>> What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over sequentially
>>> assigning values?

>> There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of mappings.

The assignment only happens one-time, so I don't see a problem with a
little overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).

>> Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on
>> the object to number mapping.  Detecting these issues is very
>> difficult.
>> The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string,
>> which is permanent and cannot change no matter how the
>> YANG is refactored.  The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.
>> There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree
>> on the hashes (except for collisions)

I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same
number every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues that 
come up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.

>>> When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the value
>>> to get a unique number so that we never have to manually assign numbers and
>>> thus never need to register the numbers in the registry?

>> yes, this has been suggested.
>> The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.
>> Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.

> [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all YIDs/SIDs
> need to be registered even if generated using a hash.

As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from
the previous revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don't
think I need it to be in a central registry.

>>> Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module with a yid
>>> extension so that I would not have to go lookup that information
>>> from a registry?

>> I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste errors?

We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the
module writer would need to access the registry. The module users would
have the information in the yang module and would not have to look at the
registry.

> [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to
> use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.

If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the
YIDs would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be
auto-generated and stored in a different file.

> [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more
> complex.

Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier on
the users of the module.

> [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and
> update a .sid file from a .yang file
> [MV] See [2]https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py

>>> Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information in the
>>> module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the revision date.
>>> That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained in a
>>> registry.

>> I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved for
>> temporary assignments.

I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module
writers to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.

>> How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?

I don't have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision
would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision
in the number to further reduce collisions. But I don't have a way
to resolve collisions.

>>> Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working
>>> group that defines the YANG module?

>> I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for
>> some modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then
>> manual numbering could be done instead by the WG.

> [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the
> sequential numbering will be used.

> [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in
> RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be encoded
> as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the
> following ones using delta encoding.

> [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that
> range.

Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?

-David Reid


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 20:50:48 -0700
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Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:24 PM, David Reid <reid@snmp.com> wrote:

> >>> What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over sequentially
> >>> assigning values?
>
> >> There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of mappings.
>
> The assignment only happens one-time, so I don't see a problem with a
> little overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).
>
> >> Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on
> >> the object to number mapping.  Detecting these issues is very
> >> difficult.
> >> The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string,
> >> which is permanent and cannot change no matter how the
> >> YANG is refactored.  The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.
> >> There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree
> >> on the hashes (except for collisions)
>
> I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same
> number every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues that
> come up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.
>
>
So many YANG statements are unordered.
There is no order to how imports and includes are processed,
which severely affects statement order.  Top level statements
have no order and can change at any time.

Augment statements can change order and be refactored at any time.
There is no order to any augmented node (at any level).
Only RPC input and output nodes require descendant nodes to stay
in the same relative order.

Import or include without revision of groupings, etc. is not deterministic,
The revision that gets used depends on the implementation.
Almost all imports and includes are without revision-date, so
this is a significant problem.

>>> When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the value
> >>> to get a unique number so that we never have to manually assign
> numbers and
> >>> thus never need to register the numbers in the registry?
>
> >> yes, this has been suggested.
> >> The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.
> >> Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.
>
> > [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all YIDs/SIDs
> > need to be registered even if generated using a hash.
>
> As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from
> the previous revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don't
> think I need it to be in a central registry.
>
>

Any algorithm that relies on statement order to decide which node is
rehashed
will not work.  Maybe it would be possible to rehash all collisions and
change the path for each (e.g., prepend '_') , and keep doing it until N
new hashes are found.


>>> Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module with a
> yid
> >>> extension so that I would not have to go lookup that information
> >>> from a registry?
>
> >> I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste errors?
>
> We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the
> module writer would need to access the registry. The module users would
> have the information in the yang module and would not have to look at the
> registry.
>
> > [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to
> > use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.
>
> If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the
> YIDs would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be
> auto-generated and stored in a different file.
>
> > [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more
> > complex.
>
> Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier on
> the users of the module.
>


I agree that the number of tools that have to know all the
complex numbering algorithms should be minimized.
The [local-id, path] tuples work no matter how the local-id was assigned.
The registry reader tool can be simple.


>
> > [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and
> > update a .sid file from a .yang file
> > [MV] See [2]https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py
>
> >>> Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information in
> the
> >>> module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the revision
> date.
> >>> That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained in a
> >>> registry.
>
> >> I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved for
> >> temporary assignments.
>
> I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module
> writers to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.
>
> >> How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?
>
> I don't have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision
> would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision
> in the number to further reduce collisions. But I don't have a way
> to resolve collisions.
>
> >>> Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working
> >>> group that defines the YANG module?
>
> >> I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for
> >> some modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then
> >> manual numbering could be done instead by the WG.
>
> > [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the
> > sequential numbering will be used.
>


what is sequential about nested lists and choices?
Siblings may end up far apart.



>
> > [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in
> > RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be encoded
> > as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the
> > following ones using delta encoding.
>
> > [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that
> > range.
>
> Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?
>
> -David Reid
>

Andy


>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>

--001a11440bb6b7aa90053add4dfe
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:24 PM, David Reid <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:reid@snmp.com" target=3D"_blank">reid@snmp.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">&gt;&gt;&gt; What is the benefit o=
f assigning values using hashing over sequentially<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; assigning values?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of mappin=
gs.<br>
<br>
The assignment only happens one-time, so I don&#39;t see a problem with a<b=
r>
little overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on<=
br>
&gt;&gt; the object to number mapping.=C2=A0 Detecting these issues is very=
<br>
&gt;&gt; difficult.<br>
&gt;&gt; The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string,<br>
&gt;&gt; which is permanent and cannot change no matter how the<br>
&gt;&gt; YANG is refactored.=C2=A0 The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; on the hashes (except for collisions)<br>
<br>
I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same<br>
number every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues that<=
br>
come up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So many YANG statements are unordered.=
</div><div>There is no order to how imports and includes are processed,</di=
v><div>which severely affects statement order.=C2=A0 Top level statements</=
div><div>have no order and can change at any time.</div><div><br></div><div=
>Augment statements can change order and be refactored at any time.</div><d=
iv>There is no order to any augmented node (at any level).</div><div>Only R=
PC input and output nodes require descendant nodes to stay</div><div>in the=
 same relative order.</div><div><br></div><div>Import or include without re=
vision of groupings, etc. is not deterministic,</div><div>The revision that=
 gets used depends on the implementation.</div><div>Almost all imports and =
includes are without revision-date, so</div><div>this is a significant prob=
lem.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&gt;&gt;&gt; When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash=
 the value<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to get a unique number so that we never have to manually assig=
n numbers and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; thus never need to register the numbers in the registry?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; yes, this has been suggested.<br>
&gt;&gt; The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all YIDs/SIDs=
<br>
&gt; need to be registered even if generated using a hash.<br>
<br>
As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from<br>
the previous revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don&#39=
;t<br>
think I need it to be in a central registry.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Any algorithm that reli=
es on statement order to decide which node is rehashed</div><div>will not w=
ork.=C2=A0 Maybe it would be possible to rehash all collisions and</div><di=
v>change the path for each (e.g., prepend &#39;_&#39;) , and keep doing it =
until N<br></div><div>new hashes are found.</div><div><br></div><div><br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang modul=
e with a yid<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; extension so that I would not have to go lookup that informati=
on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; from a registry?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste error=
s?<br>
<br>
We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the<br>
module writer would need to access the registry. The module users would<br>
have the information in the yang module and would not have to look at the<b=
r>
registry.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to<b=
r>
&gt; use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.<br>
<br>
If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the<br>
YIDs would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be<br=
>
auto-generated and stored in a different file.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more<b=
r>
&gt; complex.<br>
<br>
Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier on<b=
r>
the users of the module.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
>I agree that the number of tools that have to know all the</div><div>compl=
ex numbering algorithms should be minimized.</div><div>The [local-id, path]=
 tuples work no matter how the local-id was assigned.</div><div>The registr=
y reader tool can be simple.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<br>
&gt; [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and<b=
r>
&gt; update a .sid file from a .yang file<br>
&gt; [MV] See [2]<a href=3D"https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/maste=
r/sid.py" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/core-wg/<=
wbr>yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py</a><br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on informat=
ion in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the revi=
sion date.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and mainta=
ined in a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; registry.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved =
for<br>
&gt;&gt; temporary assignments.<br>
<br>
I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module<br=
>
writers to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision=
<br>
would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision<br=
>
in the number to further reduce collisions. But I don&#39;t have a way<br>
to resolve collisions.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the work=
ing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; group that defines the YANG module?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for<br>
&gt;&gt; some modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then<br>
&gt;&gt; manual numbering could be done instead by the WG.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the<br>
&gt; sequential numbering will be used.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><div>what is sequential about nested lists and choices?</div><di=
v>Siblings may end up far apart.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in<br=
>
&gt; RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be encoded<=
br>
&gt; as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the<br=
>
&gt; following ones using delta encoding.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that<br>
&gt; range.<br>
<br>
Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?<br>
<br>
-David Reid<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
core mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/core</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11440bb6b7aa90053add4dfe--


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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> (Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)) to Proposed Standard
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peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl> writes:

>>>
>>>    Similar to HTTP, the existing Constrained Application Protocol
>>> (CoAP)
>>>    GET method only allows the specification of a URI and request
>>>    parameters in CoAP options, not the transfer of a request payload
>>>    detailing the request.  This leads to some applications to using
>>> POST
>>
>> s/POST/GET/  or do I need more coffee?

Applications are actually using POST for these operations because they
can use a request body with POST (allowing to transcend any limitations
on the request URI size) and POST is the catch-all operation of
HTTP.

Gruesse, Carsten


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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> (Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)) to Proposed Standard
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"Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com> writes:

>> The document has a reference to obsolete RFC 2616, this is intentional.
>
> What is that supposed to mean?  The reference is intentionally wrong?

RFC 7252 is referencing RFC 2616 for its security considerations,
because the RFC 723x series wasn't out yet at the time CoAP was
completed.  draft-ietf-core-etch references RFC 7252 for its security
considerations.  This implies a reference to RFC 2616 as well, which we
decided to make explicit (it's hard to be explicit enough about security
considerations).  We could change that to leave it implicit, rendering
the downref less visible.

> I looked at the text and it should be referencing section 9 of RFC7231,
> not section 15 of RFC2616.  Just fix the reference or remove it entirely

While we could add RFC 7231 to the above reference (which, as I said is
already implicitly there), a single security considerations section out
of one of the RFC 723x documents does not cover the entire security
considerations of RFC 2616 (e.g., section 15.7 does very much apply,
some of which seems to have been moved to RFC 7234).  Do you see
anything specific in RFC 7231 that we should cover that isn't mentioned
in RFC 2616?

We could use draft-ietf-core-etch more or less randomly as the point
where we finally clean up the editorial issues caused by the sharding of
RFC 2616.  The authors so far did not see a reason to do that exactly in
this document, which describes functionality not really touched by that
sharding.  Should we, anyway?

Gruesse, Carsten


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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:54:32 +0200
From: peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl>
To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] Name support in draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor?
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Hi Alex, and Michel

see below

Michel Veillette schreef op 2016-08-24 20:31:
> Hi Alexander
> 
> About "There are two types of identifiers supported by
> draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor - textual (for full compatibility with
> RESTConf/NETCONF names) and delta-encoded integers (a.k.a. SIDs). The
> former could be used when network constraints are not so stringent,
> while the latter is the preferred way of using this encoding in
> constrained networks."
> 
> Don't we have an action item from the last IETF to remove name?
> The minutes are not clear about this topic.
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-core
> The last sentence is from Andy " We do not need multiple ways to do
> the same thing, especially on constrained devices. Nobody provides
> short module names, so they can be very large."
<pvds>
YANG to CBOR mapping may also be used by RESTCONF/http and I like to 
maintain the textual representation.
</pvds>
> 
> Regards,
> Michel
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexander Pelov [mailto:a@ackl.io]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 3:57 AM
> To: consultancy@vanderstok.org
> Cc: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>;
> core@ietf.org WG <core@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [core] ðŸ”” Working Group Adoption call for 
> draft-somaraju-core-sid
> 
> Dear Peter,
> 
>> Le 24 aoÃ»t 2016 Ã  08:39, peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl> a 
>> Ã©crit :
>> 
>> Some comments based on the arguments below:
>> 
>>> This draft is a prerequisite for the following works:
>>> - CBOR encoding of YANG data model
>>> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor/)
>> I have argued already for some time that the text about SIDs does not 
>> belong in the yang to cbor draft.
>> It reduces its independence from the CoMI work.
>> Given that CBOR is not to be changed, Putting the SID text in a 
>> content format draft seems more appropriate.
> 
> There are two types of identifiers supported by
> draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor - textual (for full compatibility with
> RESTConf/NETCONF names) and delta-encoded integers (a.k.a. SIDs). The
> former could be used when network constraints are not so stringent,
> while the latter is the preferred way of using this encoding in
> constrained networks.
> 
> We should keep it simple. Having several content formats to express
> the same thing - especially when this is not necessary - is adding
> complexity for no reason.
<pvds>
I agree to keep things simple.
Specifying that there are two representations: numeric and textual, 
keeps the yang to cbor draft simple.
IMO the yang to cbor draft is useful beyond CoMI/CoOL applications.
Providing one content format for CoMI/CoOL, using yang-to-cbor, that 
specifies i.a. delta encoding keeps things simple and inter-operable for 
CoMI/CoOL.
May be two content formats to cover the merge-patch case if needed.

Other (future) applications can use the CBOR content format and the YANG 
to CBOR encoding independent of what we invent for CoMI/CoOL.
</pvds>
> 
> The SID draft allows for having ranges of SIDs be managed by
> independent registries and have different rules of assignment. No need
> to use different Content Formats necessary to solve overlapping of the
> integer values. Moreover, as of the time of this writing, we have 3
> different Content-Formats for the CoOL/CoMI draft. Adding an
> alternative Content-Format for the interpretation of the integers
> would multiply this by 2, e.g. 6 content formats, where half are doing
> the same thing.
> 
> If you have a server with mixed modules (e.g. ones using SID and ones
> using a different interpretation of the IDs), the Content-Format will
> force you to chose ONE or ANOTHER. There is no possibility in one
> request to read or write values from different modules. This
> effectively removes all interoperability between the two, making one
> of the two redundant.
> 
> Best,
> Alexander
> 
> 
> 
>>> The alternate assignment algorithm of IDs based on murmur3 and
>>> improved description texts  proposed by Andy in
>>> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bierman-core-yid/) don't
>>> fundamentally change the registration process defined by the SID 
>>> draft.
>> 
>> I should like to wait till this agreement is visible on this mailing 
>> list.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> core mailing list
>> core@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
> 
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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From: Sandeep Kumar <ietf@sandeep.de>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 15:40:27 +0200
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+1
I support adoption of the draft as it is quite useful to have this
additional security mechanism in the toolkit that is useful in many
settings.

Regards
Sandeep

Sandeep Kumar

Senior Scientist,

Philips Lighting Research, The Netherlands

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez <jaime.jimenez@ericsson=
.com>
wrote:

> Dear CoRE-WG,
>
> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been requested
> for draft-selander-ace-object-security. At the IETF meeting the
> room consensus was strongly supporting adoption (10-12 people). Please
> reply to the list with your comments, including although not limited to
> whether or not you support adoption. Non-authors are especially encourage=
d
> to comment.
>
> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on *Au=
gust
> 26, 2016*.
>
> Thanks,
> Jaime and Carsten
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>+1 <br></div>I support adoption of the=
 draft as it is quite useful to have this additional security mechanism in =
the toolkit that is useful in many settings.<br><br></div>Regards<br></div>=
Sandeep<br><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font siz=
e=3D"2"><br></font></span></div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">Sandeep Kumar<br></font></span><div><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">

</font></span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:black">Senior
Scientist,</span></font></span></p><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2">



</font></span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:black">Philips Light=
ing
Research,</span></font></span><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:black"> The
Netherlands</span></font></span><br></p></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Jaime J=
im=C3=A9nez <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.=
com" target=3D"_blank">jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Dear CoRE-WG,<br>
<br>
As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been requested f=
or draft-selander-ace-object-<wbr>security. At the IETF meeting the room=C2=
=A0consensus was strongly supporting adoption (10-12 people).=C2=A0Please r=
eply to the list with your comments, including
 although not=C2=A0limited to whether or not you support adoption. Non-auth=
ors are especially=C2=A0encouraged to comment.<br>
<br>
Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on=C2=A0=
<b>August 26, 2016</b>.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Jaime and Carsten
<div><br>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
core mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/core</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
To: David Reid <reid@snmp.com>, "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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Hi David

About " Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned? "

If you use a tool such the pyang plugin, they will be automatically assigne=
d.

For example, the command:
   pyang --generate-sid-file 20000:100 toaster@2009-11-20.yang

Generate the file toaster@2009-11-20.sid in attachment.

The command:
  pyang --update-sid-file toaster@2009-11-20.sid  toaster@2009-12-28.yang

Generate the file toaster@2009-12-28.sid in attachment.

It is important to note that sequential numbering doesn't means that two da=
ta nodes defined sequentially in .yang file will receive consecutive IDs.
As you known, order may change and grouping may be introduced between versi=
ons.
It means that IDs are assigned sequentially from 1 using some arbitrary ord=
er.
If a .yang module have 14 YANG items, they will be numbered from 1 to 14.
If the next version add 5 YANG items, they will be numbered from 15 to 19.

Regards,
Michel

-----Original Message-----
From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David Reid
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:24 PM
To: core@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions

>>> What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over=20
>>> sequentially assigning values?

>> There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of mappings.

The assignment only happens one-time, so I don't see a problem with a littl=
e overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).

>> Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on the=20
>> object to number mapping.  Detecting these issues is very difficult.
>> The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string, which is=20
>> permanent and cannot change no matter how the YANG is refactored. =20
>> The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.
>> There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree on=20
>> the hashes (except for collisions)

I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same num=
ber every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues that com=
e up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.

>>> When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the=20
>>> value to get a unique number so that we never have to manually=20
>>> assign numbers and thus never need to register the numbers in the regis=
try?

>> yes, this has been suggested.
>> The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.
>> Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.

> [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all YIDs/SIDs=20
> need to be registered even if generated using a hash.

As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from the pre=
vious revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don't think I =
need it to be in a central registry.

>>> Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module with=20
>>> a yid extension so that I would not have to go lookup that=20
>>> information from a registry?

>> I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste errors?

We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the module w=
riter would need to access the registry. The module users would have the in=
formation in the yang module and would not have to look at the registry.

> [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to=20
> use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.

If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the YID=
s would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be auto-=
generated and stored in a different file.

> [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more=20
> complex.

Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier on t=
he users of the module.

> [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and=20
> update a .sid file from a .yang file [MV] See=20
> [2]https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py

>>> Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information in=20
>>> the module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the revision =
date.
>>> That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained=20
>>> in a registry.

>> I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved for=20
>> temporary assignments.

I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module wr=
iters to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.

>> How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?

I don't have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision wou=
ld be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision in th=
e number to further reduce collisions. But I don't have a way to resolve co=
llisions.

>>> Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working=20
>>> group that defines the YANG module?

>> I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for some=20
>> modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then manual=20
>> numbering could be done instead by the WG.

> [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the=20
> sequential numbering will be used.

> [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in=20
> RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be encoded=20
> as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the=20
> following ones using delta encoding.

> [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that=20
> range.

Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?

-David Reid

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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 08:33:56 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHQrNrYkC5yZLou33own9q+h0yn9+GogEWcm4q1CP+6jVw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
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Cc: "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Michel Veillette <
Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com> wrote:

> Hi David
>
> About " Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned? "
>
> If you use a tool such the pyang plugin, they will be automatically
> assigned.
>
> For example, the command:
>    pyang --generate-sid-file 20000:100 toaster@2009-11-20.yang
>
> Generate the file toaster@2009-11-20.sid in attachment.
>
> The command:
>   pyang --update-sid-file toaster@2009-11-20.sid  toaster@2009-12-28.yang
>
>
Where is the algorithm explained in enough detail that multiple
independent implementations will all produce the exact same results?


Andy


> Generate the file toaster@2009-12-28.sid in attachment.
>
> It is important to note that sequential numbering doesn't means that two
> data nodes defined sequentially in .yang file will receive consecutive IDs.
> As you known, order may change and grouping may be introduced between
> versions.
> It means that IDs are assigned sequentially from 1 using some arbitrary
> order.
> If a .yang module have 14 YANG items, they will be numbered from 1 to 14.
> If the next version add 5 YANG items, they will be numbered from 15 to 19.
>
> Regards,
> Michel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David Reid
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:24 PM
> To: core@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
>
> >>> What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over
> >>> sequentially assigning values?
>
> >> There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of mappings.
>
> The assignment only happens one-time, so I don't see a problem with a
> little overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).
>
> >> Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on the
> >> object to number mapping.  Detecting these issues is very difficult.
> >> The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string, which is
> >> permanent and cannot change no matter how the YANG is refactored.
> >> The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.
> >> There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree on
> >> the hashes (except for collisions)
>
> I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same
> number every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues that
> come up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.
>
> >>> When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the
> >>> value to get a unique number so that we never have to manually
> >>> assign numbers and thus never need to register the numbers in the
> registry?
>
> >> yes, this has been suggested.
> >> The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.
> >> Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.
>
> > [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all YIDs/SIDs
> > need to be registered even if generated using a hash.
>
> As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from the
> previous revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don't think
> I need it to be in a central registry.
>
> >>> Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module with
> >>> a yid extension so that I would not have to go lookup that
> >>> information from a registry?
>
> >> I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste errors?
>
> We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the module
> writer would need to access the registry. The module users would have the
> information in the yang module and would not have to look at the registry.
>
> > [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to
> > use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.
>
> If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the
> YIDs would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be
> auto-generated and stored in a different file.
>
> > [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more
> > complex.
>
> Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier on
> the users of the module.
>
> > [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and
> > update a .sid file from a .yang file [MV] See
> > [2]https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py
>
> >>> Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information in
> >>> the module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the revision
> date.
> >>> That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained
> >>> in a registry.
>
> >> I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved for
> >> temporary assignments.
>
> I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module
> writers to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.
>
> >> How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?
>
> I don't have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision
> would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision in
> the number to further reduce collisions. But I don't have a way to resolve
> collisions.
>
> >>> Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working
> >>> group that defines the YANG module?
>
> >> I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for some
> >> modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then manual
> >> numbering could be done instead by the WG.
>
> > [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the
> > sequential numbering will be used.
>
> > [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in
> > RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be encoded
> > as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the
> > following ones using delta encoding.
>
> > [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that
> > range.
>
> Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?
>
> -David Reid
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>
>

--001a11440bb64b4c10053ae72070
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Michel Veillette <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Mic=
hel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">Hi David<br>
<br>
About &quot; Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned=
? &quot;<br>
<br>
If you use a tool such the pyang plugin, they will be automatically assigne=
d.<br>
<br>
For example, the command:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pyang --generate-sid-file 20000:100 toaster@2009-11-20.yang<br=
>
<br>
Generate the file toaster@2009-11-20.sid in attachment.<br>
<br>
The command:<br>
=C2=A0 pyang --update-sid-file toaster@2009-11-20.sid=C2=A0 toaster@2009-12=
-28.yang<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Where is the algorithm explained in en=
ough detail that multiple</div><div>independent implementations will all pr=
oduce the exact same results?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy<=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Generate the file toaster@2009-12-28.sid in attachment.<br>
<br>
It is important to note that sequential numbering doesn&#39;t means that tw=
o data nodes defined sequentially in .yang file will receive consecutive ID=
s.<br>
As you known, order may change and grouping may be introduced between versi=
ons.<br>
It means that IDs are assigned sequentially from 1 using some arbitrary ord=
er.<br>
If a .yang module have 14 YANG items, they will be numbered from 1 to 14.<b=
r>
If the next version add 5 YANG items, they will be numbered from 15 to 19.<=
br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: core [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org">core-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On Behalf Of David Reid<br>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:24 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; sequentially assigning values?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of mappin=
gs.<br>
<br>
The assignment only happens one-time, so I don&#39;t see a problem with a l=
ittle overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on =
the<br>
&gt;&gt; object to number mapping.=C2=A0 Detecting these issues is very dif=
ficult.<br>
&gt;&gt; The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string, which =
is<br>
&gt;&gt; permanent and cannot change no matter how the YANG is refactored.<=
br>
&gt;&gt; The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.<br>
&gt;&gt; There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree o=
n<br>
&gt;&gt; the hashes (except for collisions)<br>
<br>
I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same num=
ber every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues that com=
e up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash=
 the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; value to get a unique number so that we never have to manually=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; assign numbers and thus never need to register the numbers in =
the registry?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; yes, this has been suggested.<br>
&gt;&gt; The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all YIDs/SIDs=
<br>
&gt; need to be registered even if generated using a hash.<br>
<br>
As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from the pre=
vious revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don&#39;t thin=
k I need it to be in a central registry.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang modul=
e with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; a yid extension so that I would not have to go lookup that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; information from a registry?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste error=
s?<br>
<br>
We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the module w=
riter would need to access the registry. The module users would have the in=
formation in the yang module and would not have to look at the registry.<br=
>
<br>
&gt; [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to<b=
r>
&gt; use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.<br>
<br>
If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the YID=
s would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be auto-=
generated and stored in a different file.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more<b=
r>
&gt; complex.<br>
<br>
Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier on t=
he users of the module.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and<b=
r>
&gt; update a .sid file from a .yang file [MV] See<br>
&gt; [2]<a href=3D"https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/core-wg/<wbr>yang-=
cbor/blob/master/sid.py</a><br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on informat=
ion in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the =
revision date.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and mainta=
ined<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; in a registry.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved =
for<br>
&gt;&gt; temporary assignments.<br>
<br>
I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module wr=
iters to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision=
 would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision i=
n the number to further reduce collisions. But I don&#39;t have a way to re=
solve collisions.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the work=
ing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; group that defines the YANG module?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for some<=
br>
&gt;&gt; modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then manual<br>
&gt;&gt; numbering could be done instead by the WG.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the<br>
&gt; sequential numbering will be used.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in<br=
>
&gt; RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be encoded<=
br>
&gt; as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the<br=
>
&gt; following ones using delta encoding.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that<br>
&gt; range.<br>
<br>
Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?<br>
<br>
-David Reid<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
core mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/core</a><br>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
core mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
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Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 18:01:09 +0200
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
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Cc: "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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Hi Andy,

> Le 25 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 17:33, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> a =
=C3=A9crit :
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Michel Veillette =
<Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com =
<mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>> wrote:
> Hi David
>=20
> About " Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually =
assigned? "
>=20
> If you use a tool such the pyang plugin, they will be automatically =
assigned.
>=20
> For example, the command:
>    pyang --generate-sid-file 20000:100 toaster@2009-11-20.yang
>=20
> Generate the file toaster@2009-11-20.sid in attachment.
>=20
> The command:
>   pyang --update-sid-file toaster@2009-11-20.sid  =
toaster@2009-12-28.yang
>=20
>=20
> Where is the algorithm explained in enough detail that multiple
> independent implementations will all produce the exact same results?

You don=E2=80=99t need this explicitly. You=E2=80=99ll need the SID file =
generated by the tool. There is a description on the way the current =
implementation works of course.

Of course, you may imagine Registries that choose policies / allocations =
that COULD provide for ways of deterministically generating on the fly =
your identifiers. But the most common denominator should be the SID =
file.

Example (which I am inventing on the go, so you can modify it according =
to your vision):
A Hash-based Registry (HREG) is created and IANA allocates SIDs =
0x00010000-0x000F0000.
HREG publishes as its official policy that all modules registered under =
it must generate their SID files using the murmur32 hash, and the size =
of the hash must be at least 10 bits. (for the sake of the example). The =
registry MAY also specify that no hash collisions are allowed, e.g. any =
modification of a module must result in different hashes for each =
element. If by chance, there is a hash collision, it is up to the author =
to change the naming in such a way, as to be collision-free.=20
HREG may provide its own SID-generating tool, which performs the hash =
generation, verifies that there are no collisions, and outputs a =
standard SID file (where the IDs are generated by hashing).

Once this is done, depending on the policy of HREG, it may publish the =
SID file for interoperability with the whole world, or potentially keep =
it private. The meta-data publishes by the HREG you could have only =
thing like: module entry point + range size (10 bits.. or more - could =
be flexible per module) + some metadata (e.g. indicating that this is =
no_collision_hash_generated).

This, however, is in my opinion, out of the scope of this draft. We =
should provide the minimal functions which allow these systems to be =
built, to coexist and to interoperate.=20

Best,
Alexander

>=20
>=20
> Andy
> =20
> Generate the file toaster@2009-12-28.sid in attachment.
>=20
> It is important to note that sequential numbering doesn't means that =
two data nodes defined sequentially in .yang file will receive =
consecutive IDs.
> As you known, order may change and grouping may be introduced between =
versions.
> It means that IDs are assigned sequentially from 1 using some =
arbitrary order.
> If a .yang module have 14 YANG items, they will be numbered from 1 to =
14.
> If the next version add 5 YANG items, they will be numbered from 15 to =
19.
>=20
> Regards,
> Michel
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of David Reid
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:24 PM
> To: core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
>=20
> >>> What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over
> >>> sequentially assigning values?
>=20
> >> There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of =
mappings.
>=20
> The assignment only happens one-time, so I don't see a problem with a =
little overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).
>=20
> >> Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on =
the
> >> object to number mapping.  Detecting these issues is very =
difficult.
> >> The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string, which =
is
> >> permanent and cannot change no matter how the YANG is refactored.
> >> The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.
> >> There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree on
> >> the hashes (except for collisions)
>=20
> I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the =
same number every time. Although I have not thought through all the =
issues that come up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.
>=20
> >>> When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the
> >>> value to get a unique number so that we never have to manually
> >>> assign numbers and thus never need to register the numbers in the =
registry?
>=20
> >> yes, this has been suggested.
> >> The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.
> >> Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.
>=20
> > [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all =
YIDs/SIDs
> > need to be registered even if generated using a hash.
>=20
> As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from =
the previous revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I =
don't think I need it to be in a central registry.
>=20
> >>> Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module =
with
> >>> a yid extension so that I would not have to go lookup that
> >>> information from a registry?
>=20
> >> I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste =
errors?
>=20
> We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the =
module writer would need to access the registry. The module users would =
have the information in the yang module and would not have to look at =
the registry.
>=20
> > [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to
> > use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.
>=20
> If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, =
the YIDs would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They =
could be auto-generated and stored in a different file.
>=20
> > [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more
> > complex.
>=20
> Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier =
on the users of the module.
>=20
> > [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and
> > update a .sid file from a .yang file [MV] See
> > [2]https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py =
<https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py>
>=20
> >>> Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information =
in
> >>> the module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the =
revision date.
> >>> That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained
> >>> in a registry.
>=20
> >> I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved =
for
> >> temporary assignments.
>=20
> I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring =
module writers to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign =
it.
>=20
> >> How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?
>=20
> I don't have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of =
collision would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the =
first revision in the number to further reduce collisions. But I don't =
have a way to resolve collisions.
>=20
> >>> Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working
> >>> group that defines the YANG module?
>=20
> >> I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for some
> >> modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then manual
> >> numbering could be done instead by the WG.
>=20
> > [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the
> > sequential numbering will be used.
>=20
> > [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in
> > RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be =
encoded
> > as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the
> > following ones using delta encoding.
>=20
> > [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that
> > range.
>=20
> Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?
>=20
> -David Reid
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


--Apple-Mail=_0D6556C2-2110-4B44-880A-D93B976D0D41
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Andy,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Le 25 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 =
17:33, Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
class=3D"">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Michel Veillette =
<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi David<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
About " Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned? =
"<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
If you use a tool such the pyang plugin, they will be automatically =
assigned.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
For example, the command:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp;pyang --generate-sid-file 20000:100 <a =
href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.yang" =
class=3D"">toaster@2009-11-20.yang</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Generate the file <a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.sid" =
class=3D"">toaster@2009-11-20.sid</a> in attachment.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The command:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; pyang --update-sid-file <a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.sid" =
class=3D"">toaster@2009-11-20.sid</a>&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-12-28.yang" =
class=3D"">toaster@2009-12-28.yang</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Where is the algorithm explained in enough detail that =
multiple</div><div class=3D"">independent implementations will all =
produce the exact same =
results?</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You don=E2=80=99t need this explicitly. You=E2=80=99=
ll need the SID file generated by the tool. There is a description on =
the way the current implementation works of course.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Of course, you may imagine Registries that choose =
policies / allocations that COULD provide for ways of deterministically =
generating on the fly your identifiers. But the most common denominator =
should be the SID file.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Example =
(which I am inventing on the go, so you can modify it according to your =
vision):</div><div>A Hash-based Registry (HREG) is created and IANA =
allocates SIDs 0x00010000-0x000F0000.</div><div>HREG publishes as its =
official policy that all modules registered under it must generate their =
SID files using the murmur32 hash, and the size of the hash must be at =
least 10 bits. (for the sake of the example). The registry MAY also =
specify that no hash collisions are allowed, e.g. any modification of a =
module must result in different hashes for each element. If by chance, =
there is a hash collision, it is up to the author to change the naming =
in such a way, as to be collision-free.&nbsp;</div><div>HREG may provide =
its own SID-generating tool, which performs the hash generation, =
verifies that there are no collisions, and outputs a standard SID file =
(where the IDs are generated by hashing).</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Once this is done, depending on the policy of =
HREG, it may publish the SID file for interoperability with the whole =
world, or potentially keep it private. The meta-data publishes by the =
HREG you could have only thing like: module entry point + range size (10 =
bits.. or more - could be flexible per module) + some metadata (e.g. =
indicating that this is no_collision_hash_generated).</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This, however, is in my opinion, out of the scope =
of this draft. We should provide the minimal functions which allow these =
systems to be built, to coexist and to interoperate.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alexander</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Andy</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Generate the file <a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-12-28.sid" =
class=3D"">toaster@2009-12-28.sid</a> in attachment.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
It is important to note that sequential numbering doesn't means that two =
data nodes defined sequentially in .yang file will receive consecutive =
IDs.<br class=3D"">
As you known, order may change and grouping may be introduced between =
versions.<br class=3D"">
It means that IDs are assigned sequentially from 1 using some arbitrary =
order.<br class=3D"">
If a .yang module have 14 YANG items, they will be numbered from 1 to =
14.<br class=3D"">
If the next version add 5 YANG items, they will be numbered from 15 to =
19.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Regards,<br class=3D"">
Michel<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">
From: core [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">core-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of David Reid<br =
class=3D"">
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:24 PM<br class=3D"">
To: <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions<br class=3D"">=

<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing =
over<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; sequentially assigning values?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of =
mappings.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The assignment only happens one-time, so I don't see a problem with a =
little overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree =
on the<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; object to number mapping.&nbsp; Detecting these issues is very =
difficult.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string, =
which is<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; permanent and cannot change no matter how the YANG is =
refactored.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to =
disagree on<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; the hashes (except for collisions)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same =
number every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues =
that come up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to =
rehash the<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; value to get a unique number so that we never have to =
manually<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; assign numbers and thus never need to register the numbers =
in the registry?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; yes, this has been suggested.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module =
clashes.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is =
feasible.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all =
YIDs/SIDs<br class=3D"">
&gt; need to be registered even if generated using a hash.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from the =
previous revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don't =
think I need it to be in a central registry.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang =
module with<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; a yid extension so that I would not have to go lookup =
that<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; information from a registry?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste =
errors?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the =
module writer would need to access the registry. The module users would =
have the information in the yang module and would not have to look at =
the registry.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient =
to<br class=3D"">
&gt; use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the =
YIDs would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be =
auto-generated and stored in a different file.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance =
more<br class=3D"">
&gt; complex.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier =
on the users of the module.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate =
and<br class=3D"">
&gt; update a .sid file from a .yang file [MV] See<br class=3D"">
&gt; [2]<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/core-wg/<wbr =
class=3D"">yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on =
information in<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; the module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe =
the revision date.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and =
maintained<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; in a registry.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I think private module-id would be better, using a range =
reserved for<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; temporary assignments.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module =
writers to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I don't have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision =
would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision =
in the number to further reduce collisions. But I don't have a way to =
resolve collisions.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the =
working<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; group that defines the YANG module?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for =
some<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then manual<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; numbering could be done instead by the WG.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; sequential numbering will be used.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined =
in<br class=3D"">
&gt; RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be =
encoded<br class=3D"">
&gt; as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for =
the<br class=3D"">
&gt; following ones using delta encoding.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within =
that<br class=3D"">
&gt; range.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-David Reid<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
class=3D"">
core mailing list<br class=3D"">
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 09:02:58 -0700
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To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
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Cc: "core@ietf.org" <core@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Michel Veillette <
Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy, Hi David
>
>
>
> There is no requirement to have multiple tools or algorithms producing th=
e
> same result.
>



Then it isn't auto-numbering.
It is just an offline tool to assign numbers to YANG statements.
So there is no need to standardize SID at all.
There is just a list of [id, path] mappings in a registry entry,
which is what the YID draft proposes.  (centralized or distributed list of
mappings).


Andy




> The only requirements we have for YIDs/SIDs are:
>
> - To be unique (Within the allocated range without duplicate)
>
> - To be permanent (Registered within a private or public registry)
>
>
>
> As demonstrated in one of my last email, all YIDs/SIDs must be registered
> even if generated from a hash.
>
> The algorithm don=E2=80=99t need to be mandated, the registered YIDs/SIDs=
 are the
> IDs to use.
>
>
>
> The currently recommended algorithm is described in
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-3
>
>
>
>    o  A tool extracts the different items defined for a specific YANG
>
>       module.
>
>
>
>    o  The list of items is ordered by type and label.
>
>
>
>    o  SIDs are assigned sequentially for the entry point up to the size
>
>       of the registered SID range.  It is important to note that
>
>       sequentially assigning SIDs optimizes the CBOR serialization due
>
>       to the use of delta encoding.
>
>
>
>    o  If the number of items exceeds the SID range(s) allocated to a
>
>       YANG module, an extra range is added for subsequent assignments.
>
>
>
>    SIDs are assigned permanently, items introduced by a new revision of
>
>    a YANG module are added to the list of SIDs already assigned.  This
>
>    process can also be automated using the same method described above
>
>    except that the assignment need to be restarted from the highest SID
>
>    already assigned.
>
>
>
> Since the file is fully defined, ordering the list within this file and
> assigning sequentially IDs to these
>
> entries can be performed by different tools with the same result.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michel
>
>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@yumaworks.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 25, 2016 11:34 AM
> *To:* Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
> *Cc:* David Reid <reid@snmp.com>; core@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@
> trilliantinc.com> wrote:
>
> Hi David
>
> About " Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned? "
>
> If you use a tool such the pyang plugin, they will be automatically
> assigned.
>
> For example, the command:
>    pyang --generate-sid-file 20000:100 toaster@2009-11-20.yang
>
> Generate the file toaster@2009-11-20.sid in attachment.
>
> The command:
>   pyang --update-sid-file toaster@2009-11-20.sid  toaster@2009-12-28.yang
>
>
>
> Where is the algorithm explained in enough detail that multiple
>
> independent implementations will all produce the exact same results?
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> Generate the file toaster@2009-12-28.sid in attachment.
>
> It is important to note that sequential numbering doesn't means that two
> data nodes defined sequentially in .yang file will receive consecutive ID=
s.
> As you known, order may change and grouping may be introduced between
> versions.
> It means that IDs are assigned sequentially from 1 using some arbitrary
> order.
> If a .yang module have 14 YANG items, they will be numbered from 1 to 14.
> If the next version add 5 YANG items, they will be numbered from 15 to 19=
.
>
> Regards,
> Michel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David Reid
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:24 PM
> To: core@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
>
> >>> What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over
> >>> sequentially assigning values?
>
> >> There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of mappings.
>
> The assignment only happens one-time, so I don't see a problem with a
> little overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).
>
> >> Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on the
> >> object to number mapping.  Detecting these issues is very difficult.
> >> The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string, which is
> >> permanent and cannot change no matter how the YANG is refactored.
> >> The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.
> >> There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree on
> >> the hashes (except for collisions)
>
> I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same
> number every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues tha=
t
> come up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.
>
> >>> When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the
> >>> value to get a unique number so that we never have to manually
> >>> assign numbers and thus never need to register the numbers in the
> registry?
>
> >> yes, this has been suggested.
> >> The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.
> >> Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.
>
> > [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all YIDs/SIDs
> > need to be registered even if generated using a hash.
>
> As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from the
> previous revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don't thi=
nk
> I need it to be in a central registry.
>
> >>> Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module with
> >>> a yid extension so that I would not have to go lookup that
> >>> information from a registry?
>
> >> I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste errors?
>
> We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the module
> writer would need to access the registry. The module users would have the
> information in the yang module and would not have to look at the registry=
.
>
> > [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to
> > use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.
>
> If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the
> YIDs would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be
> auto-generated and stored in a different file.
>
> > [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more
> > complex.
>
> Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier on
> the users of the module.
>
> > [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and
> > update a .sid file from a .yang file [MV] See
> > [2]https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py
>
> >>> Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information in
> >>> the module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the revisio=
n
> date.
> >>> That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained
> >>> in a registry.
>
> >> I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved for
> >> temporary assignments.
>
> I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module
> writers to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.
>
> >> How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?
>
> I don't have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision
> would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision =
in
> the number to further reduce collisions. But I don't have a way to resolv=
e
> collisions.
>
> >>> Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working
> >>> group that defines the YANG module?
>
> >> I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for some
> >> modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then manual
> >> numbering could be done instead by the WG.
>
> > [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the
> > sequential numbering will be used.
>
> > [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in
> > RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be encoded
> > as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the
> > following ones using delta encoding.
>
> > [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that
> > range.
>
> Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?
>
> -David Reid
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Michel Veillette <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Mic=
hel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Andy, Hi David<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">There is no requirement to have mult=
iple tools or algorithms producing the same result.</span></p></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Then it isn&#=
39;t auto-numbering.</div><div>It is just an offline tool to assign numbers=
 to YANG statements.</div><div>So there is no need to standardize SID at al=
l.</div><div>There is just a list of [id, path] mappings in a registry entr=
y,</div><div>which is what the YID draft proposes. =C2=A0(centralized or di=
stributed list of mappings).</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</=
div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">The only requirements we have for YI=
Ds/SIDs are:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">- To be unique (Within the allocated=
 range without duplicate)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">- To be permanent (Registered within=
 a private or public registry)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">As demonstrated in one of my last em=
ail, all YIDs/SIDs must be registered even if generated from a hash.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">The algorithm don=E2=80=99t need to =
be mandated, the registered YIDs/SIDs are the IDs to use.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">The currently recommended algorithm =
is described in<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-3" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/<wbr>draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#<wbr>section-3</a><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 A tool extracts the diffe=
rent items defined for a specific YANG<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 module.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The list of items is orde=
red by type and label.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 SIDs are assigned sequent=
ially for the entry point up to the size<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the register=
ed SID range.=C2=A0 It is important to note that<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 sequentially as=
signing SIDs optimizes the CBOR serialization due<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to the use of d=
elta encoding.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 If the number of items ex=
ceeds the SID range(s) allocated to a<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 YANG module, an=
 extra range is added for subsequent assignments.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 SIDs are assigned permanently=
, items introduced by a new revision of<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 a YANG module are added to th=
e list of SIDs already assigned.=C2=A0 This<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 process can also be automated=
 using the same method described above<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 except that the assignment ne=
ed to be restarted from the highest SID<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 already assigned.<u></u><u></=
u></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Since the file is fully defined, ord=
ering the list within this file and assigning sequentially IDs to these
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">entries can be performed by differen=
t tools with the same result.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Michel<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Andy Bierman [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 25, 2016 11:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michel Veillette &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trillian=
tinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Michel.Veillette@<wbr>trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;<=
br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Reid &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:reid@snmp.com" target=3D"_blank=
">reid@snmp.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>core@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Michel Veillette &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank">Mi=
chel.Veillette@<wbr>trilliantinc.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi David<br>
<br>
About &quot; Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned=
? &quot;<br>
<br>
If you use a tool such the pyang plugin, they will be automatically assigne=
d.<br>
<br>
For example, the command:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pyang --generate-sid-file 20000:100 <a href=3D"mailto:toaster@=
2009-11-20.yang" target=3D"_blank">toaster@2009-11-20.yang</a><br>
<br>
Generate the file <a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.sid" target=3D"_blan=
k">toaster@2009-11-20.sid</a> in attachment.<br>
<br>
The command:<br>
=C2=A0 pyang --update-sid-file <a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.sid" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">toaster@2009-11-20.sid</a>=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-12-28.yang" target=3D"_blank">toaster@2009-1=
2-28.yang</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Where is the algorithm explained in enough detail th=
at multiple<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">independent implementations will all produce the exa=
ct same results?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Generate the file <a =
href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-12-28.sid" target=3D"_blank">
toaster@2009-12-28.sid</a> in attachment.<br>
<br>
It is important to note that sequential numbering doesn&#39;t means that tw=
o data nodes defined sequentially in .yang file will receive consecutive ID=
s.<br>
As you known, order may change and grouping may be introduced between versi=
ons.<br>
It means that IDs are assigned sequentially from 1 using some arbitrary ord=
er.<br>
If a .yang module have 14 YANG items, they will be numbered from 1 to 14.<b=
r>
If the next version add 5 YANG items, they will be numbered from 15 to 19.<=
br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: core [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">core-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of David Reid<br>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:24 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">core@ietf.org</a><br=
>
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; sequentially assigning values?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of mappin=
gs.<br>
<br>
The assignment only happens one-time, so I don&#39;t see a problem with a l=
ittle overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on =
the<br>
&gt;&gt; object to number mapping.=C2=A0 Detecting these issues is very dif=
ficult.<br>
&gt;&gt; The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string, which =
is<br>
&gt;&gt; permanent and cannot change no matter how the YANG is refactored.<=
br>
&gt;&gt; The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.<br>
&gt;&gt; There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree o=
n<br>
&gt;&gt; the hashes (except for collisions)<br>
<br>
I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same num=
ber every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues that com=
e up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash=
 the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; value to get a unique number so that we never have to manually=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; assign numbers and thus never need to register the numbers in =
the registry?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; yes, this has been suggested.<br>
&gt;&gt; The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all YIDs/SIDs=
<br>
&gt; need to be registered even if generated using a hash.<br>
<br>
As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from the pre=
vious revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don&#39;t thin=
k I need it to be in a central registry.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang modul=
e with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; a yid extension so that I would not have to go lookup that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; information from a registry?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste error=
s?<br>
<br>
We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the module w=
riter would need to access the registry. The module users would have the in=
formation in the yang module and would not have to look at the registry.<br=
>
<br>
&gt; [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to<b=
r>
&gt; use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.<br>
<br>
If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the YID=
s would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be auto-=
generated and stored in a different file.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more<b=
r>
&gt; complex.<br>
<br>
Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier on t=
he users of the module.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and<b=
r>
&gt; update a .sid file from a .yang file [MV] See<br>
&gt; [2]<a href=3D"https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/core-wg/<wbr>yang-cbor/blob/master/si=
d.py</a><br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on informat=
ion in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the =
revision date.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and mainta=
ined<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; in a registry.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved =
for<br>
&gt;&gt; temporary assignments.<br>
<br>
I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module wr=
iters to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision=
 would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision i=
n the number to further reduce collisions. But I don&#39;t have a way to re=
solve collisions.<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the work=
ing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; group that defines the YANG module?<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for some<=
br>
&gt;&gt; modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then manual<br>
&gt;&gt; numbering could be done instead by the WG.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the<br>
&gt; sequential numbering will be used.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in<br=
>
&gt; RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be encoded<=
br>
&gt; as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the<br=
>
&gt; following ones using delta encoding.<br>
<br>
&gt; [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that<br>
&gt; range.<br>
<br>
Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?<br>
<br>
-David Reid<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
core mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/core</a><br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
core mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/core</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c18fe32281eac053ae788b4--


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Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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Hi Andy,

> Le 25 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 18:02, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> a =
=C3=A9crit :
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Michel Veillette =
<Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com =
<mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>> wrote:
> Hi Andy, Hi David
>=20
> =20
>=20
> There is no requirement to have multiple tools or algorithms producing =
the same result.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Then it isn't auto-numbering.
> It is just an offline tool to assign numbers to YANG statements.

It is a way to assign numbers=E2=80=A6 automatically. Auto-numbering.

> So there is no need to standardize SID at all.
> There is just a list of [id, path] mappings in a registry entry,
> which is what the YID draft proposes.  (centralized or distributed =
list of mappings).

I think we agree here. The YID draft proposes a subset of what can be =
achieved by the SID draft. The YID draft proposes a more complex =
process, which does not ensure interoperability, and which puts enormous =
strain on IANA, with no description of how a more generic system will =
work.

Everything you can do with YID you can do with SID. Not everything you =
can do with SID can be achieved with YID.
SID is simpler.
SID cares for ID exhaustion.
SID has running code.

I think that at this point we should continue the work on SID, and see =
how on a next stage to specify the things you want to achieve with YID. =
I am not sure this needs an additional draft (or maybe - an =
informational one).

Best,
Alexander


>=20
>=20
> Andy
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The only requirements we have for YIDs/SIDs are:
>=20
> - To be unique (Within the allocated range without duplicate)
>=20
> - To be permanent (Registered within a private or public registry)
>=20
> =20
>=20
> As demonstrated in one of my last email, all YIDs/SIDs must be =
registered even if generated from a hash.
>=20
> The algorithm don=E2=80=99t need to be mandated, the registered =
YIDs/SIDs are the IDs to use.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The currently recommended algorithm is described in
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-3 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-3>
> =20
>=20
>    o  A tool extracts the different items defined for a specific YANG
>=20
>       module.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    o  The list of items is ordered by type and label.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    o  SIDs are assigned sequentially for the entry point up to the =
size
>=20
>       of the registered SID range.  It is important to note that
>=20
>       sequentially assigning SIDs optimizes the CBOR serialization due
>=20
>       to the use of delta encoding.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    o  If the number of items exceeds the SID range(s) allocated to a
>=20
>       YANG module, an extra range is added for subsequent assignments.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    SIDs are assigned permanently, items introduced by a new revision =
of
>    a YANG module are added to the list of SIDs already assigned.  This
>    process can also be automated using the same method described above
>    except that the assignment need to be restarted from the highest =
SID
>    already assigned.
> =20
>=20
> Since the file is fully defined, ordering the list within this file =
and assigning sequentially IDs to these
>=20
> entries can be performed by different tools with the same result.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Michel
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@yumaworks.com =
<mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>]=20
> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 11:34 AM
> To: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com =
<mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>>
> Cc: David Reid <reid@snmp.com <mailto:reid@snmp.com>>; core@ietf.org =
<mailto:core@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Michel Veillette =
<Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com =
<mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Hi David
>=20
> About " Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually =
assigned? "
>=20
> If you use a tool such the pyang plugin, they will be automatically =
assigned.
>=20
> For example, the command:
>    pyang --generate-sid-file 20000:100 toaster@2009-11-20.yang =
<mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.yang>
>=20
> Generate the file toaster@2009-11-20.sid =
<mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.sid> in attachment.
>=20
> The command:
>   pyang --update-sid-file toaster@2009-11-20.sid =
<mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.sid>  toaster@2009-12-28.yang =
<mailto:toaster@2009-12-28.yang>
> =20
>=20
> Where is the algorithm explained in enough detail that multiple
>=20
> independent implementations will all produce the exact same results?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Andy
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Generate the file toaster@2009-12-28.sid =
<mailto:toaster@2009-12-28.sid> in attachment.
>=20
> It is important to note that sequential numbering doesn't means that =
two data nodes defined sequentially in .yang file will receive =
consecutive IDs.
> As you known, order may change and grouping may be introduced between =
versions.
> It means that IDs are assigned sequentially from 1 using some =
arbitrary order.
> If a .yang module have 14 YANG items, they will be numbered from 1 to =
14.
> If the next version add 5 YANG items, they will be numbered from 15 to =
19.
>=20
> Regards,
> Michel
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of David Reid
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:24 PM
> To: core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
>=20
> >>> What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing over
> >>> sequentially assigning values?
>=20
> >> There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of =
mappings.
>=20
> The assignment only happens one-time, so I don't see a problem with a =
little overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).
>=20
> >> Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree on =
the
> >> object to number mapping.  Detecting these issues is very =
difficult.
> >> The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string, which =
is
> >> permanent and cannot change no matter how the YANG is refactored.
> >> The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.
> >> There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to disagree on
> >> the hashes (except for collisions)
>=20
> I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the =
same number every time. Although I have not thought through all the =
issues that come up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.
>=20
> >>> When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to rehash the
> >>> value to get a unique number so that we never have to manually
> >>> assign numbers and thus never need to register the numbers in the =
registry?
>=20
> >> yes, this has been suggested.
> >> The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module clashes.
> >> Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is feasible.
>=20
> > [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all =
YIDs/SIDs
> > need to be registered even if generated using a hash.
>=20
> As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from =
the previous revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I =
don't think I need it to be in a central registry.
>=20
> >>> Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang module =
with
> >>> a yid extension so that I would not have to go lookup that
> >>> information from a registry?
>=20
> >> I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste =
errors?
>=20
> We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the =
module writer would need to access the registry. The module users would =
have the information in the yang module and would not have to look at =
the registry.
>=20
> > [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient to
> > use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.
>=20
> If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, =
the YIDs would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They =
could be auto-generated and stored in a different file.
>=20
> > [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance more
> > complex.
>=20
> Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier =
on the users of the module.
>=20
> > [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate and
> > update a .sid file from a .yang file [MV] See
> > [2]https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py =
<https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py>
>=20
> >>> Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on information =
in
> >>> the module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe the =
revision date.
> >>> That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and maintained
> >>> in a registry.
>=20
> >> I think private module-id would be better, using a range reserved =
for
> >> temporary assignments.
>=20
> I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring =
module writers to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign =
it.
>=20
> >> How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?
>=20
> I don't have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of =
collision would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the =
first revision in the number to further reduce collisions. But I don't =
have a way to resolve collisions.
>=20
> >>> Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the working
> >>> group that defines the YANG module?
>=20
> >> I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for some
> >> modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then manual
> >> numbering could be done instead by the WG.
>=20
> > [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the
> > sequential numbering will be used.
>=20
> > [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined in
> > RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be =
encoded
> > as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for the
> > following ones using delta encoding.
>=20
> > [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within that
> > range.
>=20
> Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?
>=20
> -David Reid
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>
> =20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Andy,</div><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Le 25 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 =
18:02, Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
class=3D"">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Michel Veillette =
<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Hi Andy, Hi David<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">There is no requirement to have multiple tools or algorithms =
producing the same result.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Then it isn't =
auto-numbering.</div><div class=3D"">It is just an offline tool to =
assign numbers to YANG =
statements.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It is a way to assign numbers=E2=80=A6 =
automatically. Auto-numbering.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">So =
there is no need to standardize SID at all.</div><div class=3D"">There =
is just a list of [id, path] mappings in a registry entry,</div><div =
class=3D"">which is what the YID draft proposes. &nbsp;(centralized or =
distributed list of =
mappings).</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I think we agree here. The YID draft proposes a =
subset of what can be achieved by the SID draft. The YID draft proposes =
a more complex process, which does not ensure interoperability, and =
which puts enormous strain on IANA, with no description of how a more =
generic system will work.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Everything =
you can do with YID you can do with SID. Not everything you can do with =
SID can be achieved with YID.</div><div>SID is simpler.</div><div>SID =
cares for ID exhaustion.</div><div>SID has running code.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I think that at this point we should continue the =
work on SID, and see how on a next stage to specify the things you want =
to achieve with YID. I am not sure this needs an additional draft (or =
maybe - an informational one).</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alexander</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Andy</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"=
 link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">The only requirements we have for YIDs/SIDs are:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">- To be unique (Within the allocated range without =
duplicate)<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">- To be permanent (Registered within a private or public =
registry)<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">As demonstrated in one of my last email, all YIDs/SIDs must =
be registered even if generated from a hash.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">The algorithm don=E2=80=99t need to be mandated, the =
registered YIDs/SIDs are the IDs to use.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">The currently recommended algorithm is described in<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#section-3" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr =
class=3D"">draft-somaraju-core-sid-01#<wbr class=3D"">section-3</a><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; A tool extracts the =
different items defined for a specific YANG<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; module.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; The =
list of items is ordered by type and label.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; SIDs =
are assigned sequentially for the entry point up to the size<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of the registered SID =
range.&nbsp; It is important to note that<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sequentially assigning SIDs =
optimizes the CBOR serialization due<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the use of delta =
encoding.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; If =
the number of items exceeds the SID range(s) allocated to a<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YANG module, an extra range is =
added for subsequent assignments.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p>
<pre class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; SIDs are =
assigned permanently, items introduced by a new revision of<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></pre>
<pre class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; a YANG module =
are added to the list of SIDs already assigned.&nbsp; This<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></pre>
<pre class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; process can =
also be automated using the same method described above<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></pre>
<pre class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; except that the =
assignment need to be restarted from the highest SID<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></pre>
<pre class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; already =
assigned.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></pre><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Since the file is fully defined, ordering the list within =
this file and assigning sequentially IDs to these
<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">entries can be performed by different tools with the same =
result.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Regards,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Michel<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-CA" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D""> Andy Bierman [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">andy@yumaworks.com</a>]
<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Thursday, August 25, 2016 11:34 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> Michel Veillette &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michel.Veillette@<wbr class=3D"">trilliantinc.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> David Reid &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:reid@snmp.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">reid@snmp.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt =
questions<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:15 AM, =
Michel Veillette &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Michel.Veillette@<wbr =
class=3D"">trilliantinc.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi =
David<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
About " Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned? =
"<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
If you use a tool such the pyang plugin, they will be automatically =
assigned.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
For example, the command:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp;pyang --generate-sid-file 20000:100 <a =
href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.yang" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">toaster@2009-11-20.yang</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Generate the file <a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.sid" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">toaster@2009-11-20.sid</a> in =
attachment.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The command:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; pyang --update-sid-file <a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-11-20.sid" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">toaster@2009-11-20.sid</a>&nbsp;
<a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-12-28.yang" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">toaster@2009-12-28.yang</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Where is the algorithm explained =
in enough detail that multiple<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">independent implementations will =
all produce the exact same results?<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Generate =
the file <a href=3D"mailto:toaster@2009-12-28.sid" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">
toaster@2009-12-28.sid</a> in attachment.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
It is important to note that sequential numbering doesn't means that two =
data nodes defined sequentially in .yang file will receive consecutive =
IDs.<br class=3D"">
As you known, order may change and grouping may be introduced between =
versions.<br class=3D"">
It means that IDs are assigned sequentially from 1 using some arbitrary =
order.<br class=3D"">
If a .yang module have 14 YANG items, they will be numbered from 1 to =
14.<br class=3D"">
If the next version add 5 YANG items, they will be numbered from 15 to =
19.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Regards,<br class=3D"">
Michel<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">
From: core [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">core-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of =
David Reid<br class=3D"">
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:24 PM<br class=3D"">
To: <a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions<br class=3D"">=

<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; What is the benefit of assigning values using hashing =
over<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; sequentially assigning values?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; There is overhead ir reading and processing a giant list of =
mappings.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The assignment only happens one-time, so I don't see a problem with a =
little overhead (which I think would be minimal anyway).<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Automatic assignment is risky because both sides need to agree =
on the<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; object to number mapping.&nbsp; Detecting these issues is very =
difficult.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The YANG Hash algorithm is designed to use the path string, =
which is<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; permanent and cannot change no matter how the YANG is =
refactored.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The murmur hash is a stable algorithm.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; There is not a lot that can go wrong for the 2 peers to =
disagree on<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; the hashes (except for collisions)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I would think we could write an algorithm that would guarantee the same =
number every time. Although I have not thought through all the issues =
that come up with revisions, maybe this is harder than I think.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; When there is a hash collision, would it be possible to =
rehash the<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; value to get a unique number so that we never have to =
manually<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; assign numbers and thus never need to register the numbers =
in the registry?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; yes, this has been suggested.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; The problem with auto-rehashing before was inter-module =
clashes.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Now those are not possible so automatic rehashing is =
feasible.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] I disagree, see my previous email which explain why all =
YIDs/SIDs<br class=3D"">
&gt; need to be registered even if generated using a hash.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As long as I have either all revisions of a module or the YIDs from the =
previous revision, I can generate the numbers for the module. I don't =
think I need it to be in a central registry.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it make sense to put the module-id inside the yang =
module with<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; a yid extension so that I would not have to go lookup =
that<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; information from a registry?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I suppose -- but how to prevent duplicates and cut-and-paste =
errors?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
We would still need a registry to prevent duplicates. But only the =
module writer would need to access the registry. The module users would =
have the information in the yang module and would not have to look at =
the registry.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] Just adding the module ID in the yang file is not sufficient =
to<br class=3D"">
&gt; use a .yang file, all YIDs/SIDs need to be added.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
If YIDs are generated by hashing with auto rehashing on collisions, the =
YIDs would not have to be explicitly listed in the module. They could be =
auto-generated and stored in a different file.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] Having YIDs/SIDs in yang files will make their maintenance =
more<br class=3D"">
&gt; complex.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Yes, it makes it more complex for the module writers. But it is easier =
on the users of the module.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] BTW, a pyang plugin already exist to automatically generate =
and<br class=3D"">
&gt; update a .sid file from a .yang file [MV] See<br class=3D"">
&gt; [2]<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/core-wg/yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://github.com/core-wg/<wbr =
class=3D"">yang-cbor/blob/master/sid.py</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would it be possible to assign the module-id based on =
information in<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; the module, for example a hash of the namespace and maybe =
the revision date.<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; That way, a module-id would not have to be assigned and =
maintained<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; in a registry.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I think private module-id would be better, using a range =
reserved for<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; temporary assignments.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I think you are right. I was just hoping we could avoid requiring module =
writers to register a module-id by finding a way to auto assign it.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; How do you resolve hash collisions for module-id?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I don't have a good solution. I was hoping the probability of collision =
would be low enough to be acceptable, or we could add the first revision =
in the number to further reduce collisions. But I don't have a way to =
resolve collisions.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; Who will assign the local-id numbers? Is that done by the =
working<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;&gt; group that defines the YANG module?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; I would expect IETF modules to use hashes by default but for =
some<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; modules that seem useful to constrained devices, then manual<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; numbering could be done instead by the WG.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] To obtain a smaller encoding, I personally believe that the<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; sequential numbering will be used.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] With sequential numbering, all current YANG modules defined =
in<br class=3D"">
&gt; RFCs can be assigned within the first 6500 SIDs which will be =
encoded<br class=3D"">
&gt; as 3 bytes for the first reference and typically as 1 bytes for =
the<br class=3D"">
&gt; following ones using delta encoding.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; [MV] With hashes, only one YANG module can be assigned within =
that<br class=3D"">
&gt; range.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Is the sequential numbering auto-assigned or manually assigned?<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-David Reid<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
class=3D"">
core mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr =
class=3D"">listinfo/core</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
class=3D"">
core mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr =
class=3D"">listinfo/core</a><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">core =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: Michel Veillette <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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From nobody Thu Aug 25 20:53:56 2016
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References: <CDE6F224-7A6A-4F89-9E5C-E46AC9FACA35@ericsson.com>
From: Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com>
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Hello,

I think pub sub functionality is useful for CoAP. Whilst the draft does 
need some work its appropriate to start a WG item.

Regards, Christian


On 16/08/2016 1:10 AM, Jaime Jiménez wrote:
> Dear CoRE-WG,
>
> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been 
> requested for draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub. At the IETF meeting the 
> room consensus was strongly supporting adoption (~10 people). Please 
> reply to the list with your comments, including although not limited 
> to whether or not you support adoption. Non-authors are 
> especially encouraged to comment.
>
> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on 
> *August 26, 2016*.
>
> Thanks,
> Jaime and Carsten
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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+1 the draft is useful.

Christian


On 16/08/2016 2:17 PM, Rahul Jadhav wrote:
>
> I support adoption of this work. The work is of significance in cases 
> where the RTT is uneven amongst the nodes in LLNs and arriving at an 
> optimal RTO will significantly save retransmission overhead. Will keep 
> reviewing and testing the draft in the future.
>
> Thanks for this work.
>
> >
> >
> > From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org 
> <mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Jaime JimÃ©nez
> > Sent: 15 August 2016 PM 08:39
> > To: core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org> WG
> > Cc: draft-bormann-core-cocoa@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-bormann-core-cocoa@ietf.org>
> > Subject: [core] ðŸ”” Working Group Adoption of draft-bormann-core-cocoa
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear CoRE-WG,
> >
> > As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been 
> requested for draft-bormann-core-cocoa. At the IETF meeting the 
> room consensus was for adoption. Please reply to the list with your 
> comments, including although not limited to whether or not you support 
> adoption. Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.
> >
> > Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call 
> on August 26, 2016.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jaime and Carsten
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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Subject: Re: [core] rt and if registry question
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Hello Michael,

Its nice to have one central repository for things but I suspect that 
IANA wouldn't be happy to manage such a large name space.

It could be worthwhile to allow the registration of name spaces in the 
IANA registry (e.g. OIC.* or OCF.*). The registration would include a 
reference to the doucment(s) defining the RTs. The organisation 
registering the namespace is then responsible for the management of the 
"*" part.

At least then somebody coming across a particular rt would know where to 
look for it rather than bodies not registering with IANA because the 
effort to register individual rts is too large.

Regards, Christian


On 17/08/2016 10:34 PM, Michael Koster wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Assuming we must register rt and if values used in OCF, is the CoRE 
> Paramaters Registry an appropriate venue for registration?
>
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.xhtml
>
> NB in OCF, rt is used for application semantics and there may be 
> hundreds to thousands of rt terms registered with more being added 
> over time.
>
> Will the CoRE Parameters Registry be appropriate for registration of 
> such a large volume of terms, or is there another preferred approach?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michael
>
>
>> On Aug 14, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com 
>> <mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Carsten for the response!  This answers one of the two 
>> questions I asked.  I'm still waiting for an
>> answer on the other question (in short, it was: can you use values 
>> other than URIs without
>> registering, or only URIs?)   The attached email is the one I'm still 
>> waiting for an answer on.
>>
>> I believe I know the answer but since there's apparently confusion, 
>> I'd like confirmation on the list either way.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]
>>> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 3:19 PM
>>> To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com <mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com>>
>>> Cc: core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [core] rt and if registry question
>>>
>>> Hi Dave,
>>>
>>> I'm not the foremost expert on this but I'll give it a try.
>>>
>>> Dave Thaler wrote:
>>>> Can a prefix be registered?
>>>
>>> No.  There is nothing in section 7.4 of RFC 6690 that would create 
>>> such a
>>> registry.  (The concept of prefix is used in 4.1 for certain kinds 
>>> of searches,
>>> but it is really used in its straight computer science meaning of 
>>> "the beginning
>>> part".)
>>>
>>> The text about »values starting with the characters "core"« is about
>>> swapping out the registration policy, there is no other technical 
>>> change.
>>>
>>> Note that the text following (that instructs the designated expert) 
>>> is about
>>> avoiding the typical vagaries of choosing between link.format and 
>>> linkformat
>>> and link-format, so it is a matter of style consistency that is 
>>> meant to provide
>>> more predictability (and this memorability) of the values being 
>>> registered.  It
>>> uses "core." as an example, not in a normative way.  ("core." 
>>> doesn't occur in
>>> the entire RFC outside examples.)
>>>
>>> Actually, "coresident-sensors" or "coresident.sensors" have the same 
>>> special
>>> IETF Review policy as "core.foo" -- the policy swap is in effect for 
>>> »values
>>> starting with the characters "core"«.
>>>
>>> I believe the current text of RFC 6690 is sufficient to say all this 
>>> and no
>>> retroactive analysis of proceedings or mailing lists is required to 
>>> come to this
>>> conclusion.
>>>
>>> Grüße, Carsten
>> <Mail Attachment.eml>_______________________________________________
>> core mailing list
>> core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04.txt
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Hello Brian,

Thanks for the updates. The TCP port/ALPN changes are OK for me.

Regards, Christian
On 25/08/2016 7:22 AM, Brian Raymor wrote:
> -04 addresses all the issues discussed at IETF 96 - with the exception of https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/5. The authors are discussing the scope for a section related to RFC7641 (Observing resources ...).
>
> In addition, I opened a new issue related to mandatory exchange of CSM - https://github.com/core-wg/coap-tcp-tls/issues/58 - where feedback would be helpful.
>
> Both of these issues are targeted for -05.
>
> ...Brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:09 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: core@ietf.org
> Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04.txt
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments of the IETF.
>
>          Title           : CoAP (Constrained Application Protocol) over TCP, TLS, and WebSockets
>          Authors         : Carsten Bormann
>                            Simon Lemay
>                            Hannes Tschofenig
>                            Klaus Hartke
>                            Bilhanan Silverajan
>                            Brian Raymor
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04.txt
> 	Pages           : 42
> 	Date            : 2016-08-24
>
> Abstract:
>     The Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP), although inspired by
>     HTTP, was designed to use UDP instead of TCP.  The message layer of
>     the CoAP over UDP protocol includes support for reliable delivery,
>     simple congestion control, and flow control.
>
>     Some environments benefit from the availability of CoAP carried over
>     reliable transports such as TCP or TLS.  This document outlines the
>     changes required to use CoAP over TCP, TLS, and WebSockets
>     transports.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-coap-tcp-tls-04
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_Working_Group_Adoption_of_draft-sel?= =?utf-8?q?ander-ace-object-security?=
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+1

Christian


On 25/08/2016 11:40 PM, Sandeep Kumar wrote:
> +1
> I support adoption of the draft as it is quite useful to have this 
> additional security mechanism in the toolkit that is useful in many 
> settings.
>
> Regards
> Sandeep
>
> Sandeep Kumar
>
> Senior Scientist,
>
> Philips Lighting Research,The Netherlands
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Jaime Jiménez 
> <jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com <mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dear CoRE-WG,
>
>     As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been
>     requested for draft-selander-ace-object-security. At the IETF
>     meeting the room consensus was strongly supporting adoption (10-12
>     people). Please reply to the list with your comments, including
>     although not limited to whether or not you support adoption.
>     Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.
>
>     Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call
>     on *August 26, 2016*.
>
>     Thanks,
>     Jaime and Carsten
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     core mailing list
>     core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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Subject: Re: [core] CoAP Content format encoding for structures syntax and format parameters
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Hello Michael,

The current senml draft requests 6 identifiers for the various 
senml+(encoding) options. Looking at 
https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/media-types.xhtml 
registering each structured syntax suffix seems to be the practise.

With regards to the parameters wouldn't the parameters first have to be 
defined by the content-format registration? As senml+json doesn't have 
parameters "version=2" would not be possible. If you wanted to define 
parameters I suppose new link attribute would be needed?

Regards, Christian


On 20/08/2016 8:12 AM, Michael Koster wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What is the curent thought wrt the CoAP content-format encoding for structured syntax media identifiers, like link-format+json, senml+cbor?
>
> Does each combination need to have its own IANA registered code, or is there a scheme for structured identifier codes in CoAP?
>
> Likewise, what is the preferred way to transmit media type parameters, for example with "application/senml+json; version=2" how do we transmit the version=2 part?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>


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Subject: Re: [core] My Notes about draft-ietf-core-interfaces-05
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Hello Hannes,

Please see below.

Regards, Christian


On 3/08/2016 5:49 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I read through draft-ietf-core-interfaces-05 and I have a few questions.
>
> I understand the functionality and the desire to standardize interfaces
> since the CoRE Link Format only introduces the concepts but leaves the
> details (i.e., the value for the if parameter) unspecified.
>
> 1) Who came up with these terms?
[CNG] I'm not sure, various related technologies such as Java and HTML 
utilise some of the concepts e.g. collection. I'll let one of the 
original authors answer this. I agree the definitions could use some 
more "meat" on them. Something that i'll work on.
>
> Here, for example, is the definition of the 'collection':
>
> "A Collection is a resource which represents one or more related
> resources. Within this document, a collection refers to a collection
> with characteristics defined in this document."
>
> My understanding of the collection function is that of a view in an SQL
> database. Is this correct?
>
> The definition of function set, interface, and other terms also appears
> to be somewhat unusual. Isn't there something we could re-use from the
> Web context?
>
> 2) Is this document only applicable to CoAP or also to HTTP? In general,
> I get worried when functionality is only defined for use with CoAP and
> is not usable with HTTP, and HTTP/2.
[CNG] Also to HTTP, as Core-Link format may be used by HTTP.
>
> 3) Is it possible to include some practical examples? The document
> currently includes a number of examples but those are abstract.
[CNG] Did you have something in mind?
>
> 4) I am curious why SenML was selected. I have been trying to understand
> the relationship with LWM2M and LWM2M, for example, does not use SenML.
> SenML feels like a somewhat heavy format since it includes meta-data
> that most applications don't need.
[CNG] You mention LWM2M and LWM2M I'm not sure what the 2nd instance is? 
With regards to LWM2M the specification uses the "interface" concept in 
a similar manner to what is defined in the draft. I.e. what operations 
may be performed on resources via the interface is described. The LWM2M 
specification does reference the core interfaces draft but that's only 
in the context of a note i.e. "/Note: How to indicate the Attributes in 
the message payload is specified in [CoRE_Interface]./" I think that 
needs to be updated to make reference to the dynamic linking draft we 
have split out.

>
> 5) For most functionality no use cases are presented. The exception is
> the collection where a use case is presented in Section 4.2. I am,
> however, not sure that the 'Gradual Reveal' functionality is really
> useful as such.
[CNG] The draft was accepted back in mid 2013 (before I started 
following the CORE WG) I would have assumed there were some use cases 
presented in order for the WG to adopt the work. Perhaps one the 
original authors has them?
>
> 6) Who is using the functionality described in this document? The
> editor's note talks about alignment with OCF. Since I am not familiar
> with the functionality standardized by the OCF I cannot say how much
> different this document is from the OCF-defined features.
[CNG] The note was simply a place holder for further work that needs to 
be done. The relationship with OCF is something that needs further 
description. This is something hopefully Michael will be able to help with.
>
> 7) The structure of the document is not well-balance. For example,
> Section 3 consists of one sentence. The content of Section 5.8 is
> meaningless and Section 6.3 "Versioning" is difficult to understand. The
> security consideration section as well as the IANA consideration section
> is at best incomplete. Appendix A contains no textual description of
> what is shown in the tables.
[CNG] Yes it needs work. I explained at the meeting this document was a 
simple split of the existing text. I intend to provide some enhancements 
for the next version.
> 7) Who is the editor of this document?
[CNG] I'm now the editor. So thanks for the comments there something to 
consider for the next revision.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 10:26:39 +0200
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Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_Working_Group_Adoption_of_draft-sel?= =?utf-8?q?ander-ace-object-security?=
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+1

I also support the adoption of this draft.

It is very useful for many scenarios and settings to have such an
application-layer security mechanism available, especially in the
presence of proxy units.

Best regards,
/Marco

On 2016-08-26 07:07, Christian Groves wrote:
> +1
>
> Christian
>
>
> On 25/08/2016 11:40 PM, Sandeep Kumar wrote:
>> +1
>> I support adoption of the draft as it is quite useful to have this
>> additional security mechanism in the toolkit that is useful in many
>> settings.
>>
>> Regards
>> Sandeep
>>
>> Sandeep Kumar
>>
>> Senior Scientist,
>>
>> Philips Lighting Research,The Netherlands
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez
>> <jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com <mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com>> wrote=
:
>>
>>     Dear CoRE-WG,
>>
>>     As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been
>>     requested for draft-selander-ace-object-security. At the IETF
>>     meeting the room consensus was strongly supporting adoption (10-12=

>>     people). Please reply to the list with your comments, including
>>     although not limited to whether or not you support adoption.
>>     Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.
>>
>>     Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call=

>>     on *August 26, 2016*.
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>     Jaime and Carsten
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     core mailing list
>>     core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> core mailing list
>> core@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core

--=20
Marco Tiloca, PhD
SICS Swedish ICT AB=20
Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)

Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
https://www.sics.se
https://www.sics.se/~marco/



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From: Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>
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References: <74A76AFB-A354-4FEC-B5FD-89F180DECF9F@ericsson.com> <CAH51uSfSTBRJ_Esn3+GNDO0FZwxbzdcmfPqvYNxDY==-sVpm8A@mail.gmail.com> <6535adf5-7c76-ff1a-e5a3-dcbff49a35ef@nteczone.com> <57BFFD3F.6070608@sics.se>
To: Marco Tiloca <marco@sics.se>
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Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_Working_Group_Adoption_of_draft-sel?= =?utf-8?q?ander-ace-object-security?=
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+1

In support of the adoption of the draft.

Alexander


> Le 26 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 10:26, Marco Tiloca <marco@sics.se> a =
=C3=A9crit :
>=20
> +1
>=20
> I also support the adoption of this draft.
>=20
> It is very useful for many scenarios and settings to have such an
> application-layer security mechanism available, especially in the
> presence of proxy units.
>=20
> Best regards,
> /Marco
>=20
> On 2016-08-26 07:07, Christian Groves wrote:
>> +1
>>=20
>> Christian
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 25/08/2016 11:40 PM, Sandeep Kumar wrote:
>>> +1
>>> I support adoption of the draft as it is quite useful to have this
>>> additional security mechanism in the toolkit that is useful in many
>>> settings.
>>>=20
>>> Regards
>>> Sandeep
>>>=20
>>> Sandeep Kumar
>>>=20
>>> Senior Scientist,
>>>=20
>>> Philips Lighting Research,The Netherlands
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez
>>> <jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com <mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com>> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>>    Dear CoRE-WG,
>>>=20
>>>    As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been
>>>    requested for draft-selander-ace-object-security. At the IETF
>>>    meeting the room consensus was strongly supporting adoption =
(10-12
>>>    people). Please reply to the list with your comments, including
>>>    although not limited to whether or not you support adoption.
>>>    Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.
>>>=20
>>>    Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the =
call
>>>    on *August 26, 2016*.
>>>=20
>>>    Thanks,
>>>    Jaime and Carsten
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    core mailing list
>>>    core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>>>    <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> core mailing list
>>> core@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> core mailing list
>> core@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>=20
> --=20
> Marco Tiloca, PhD
> SICS Swedish ICT AB=20
> Isafjordsgatan 22 / Kistag=C3=A5ngen 16
> SE-164 40 Kista (Sweden)
>=20
> Phone: +46 (0)70 60 46 501
> https://www.sics.se
> https://www.sics.se/~marco/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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--001a11403b76431cd4053af675d2
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Hi,

I support also the adoption. SID is a very compact notation needed for
constraint networks.

Laurent

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez <jaime.jimenez@ericsson=
.com>
wrote:

> Dear CoRE-WG,
>
> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been requested
> for draft-somaraju-core-sid. At the IETF meeting the room consensus was f=
or
> adoption (3 people), since not too many people had read the draft we have
> to take it to the list. Please reply with your comments, including althou=
gh
> not limited to whether or not you support adoption. Non-authors are
> especially encouraged to comment.
>
> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on *
> August 26, 2016*.
>
> Thanks,
> Jaime and Carsten
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>
>


--=20
Laurent Toutain
+--- VoIP (recommended) ---+----------- T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne --------=
---+
| Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156    | Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026                 | Visit
:
| Mob: +33 6 800 75 900    |                                        |
| Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445    | Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030                  |
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+--------------------------+----------------------------------------+

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi,<br><br></div>I support also the adoption. SI=
D is a very compact notation needed for constraint networks. <br><br></div>=
Laurent<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">jaime.jimene=
z@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Dear CoRE-WG,<br>
<br>
As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been requested f=
or draft-somaraju-core-sid. At the IETF meeting the room consensus was for =
adoption (3 people), since not too many people had read the draft we have t=
o take it to the list.=C2=A0Please reply
 with your comments, including although not limited to whether or not you s=
upport adoption. Non-authors are especially=C2=A0encouraged to comment.<br>
<br>
Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on <b>
August 26, 2016</b>.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Jaime and Carsten
<div><br>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
core mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/core</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Lau=
rent Toutain=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></span></div><div><font =
face=3D"&#39;courier new&#39;, monospace">+--- VoIP (recommended) ---+-----=
------ T=C3=A9l=C3=A9com Bretagne -----------+<br>| Tel: +33 2 22 06 8156 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| Tel: + 33 2 99 12 7026 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Visit :</font><div><font face=3D"&#39;courier new&#3=
9;, monospace">| Mob: +33 6 800 75 900 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</font></div><div><font face=
=3D"&#39;courier new&#39;, monospace">| Fax: +33 2 22 06 8445 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
| Fax: +33 2 99 12 7030 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://class.touta.in" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://class.touta.in</a><br>| Laurent@Touta.in =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=
 Laurent.Toutain@Telecom-Bretagne.eu =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br>+-------------------=
-------+----------------------------------------+</font></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--001a11403b76431cd4053af675d2--


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From: "Kovatsch, Matthias" <matthias.kovatsch@siemens.com>
To: Michael Koster <michaeljohnkoster@gmail.com>, "consultancy@vanderstok.org" <consultancy@vanderstok.org>
Thread-Topic: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Pelov <a@ackl.io>, Marco Tiloca <marco@sics.se>
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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
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Subject: [core] RFC 7959 on Block-Wise Transfers in the Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 7959

        Title:      Block-Wise Transfers in the Constrained 
                    Application Protocol (CoAP) 
        Author:     C. Bormann,
                    Z. Shelby, Ed.
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       August 2016
        Mailbox:    cabo@tzi.org, 
                    zach.shelby@arm.com
        Pages:      37
        Characters: 87515
        Updates:    RFC 7252

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-core-block-21.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7959

        DOI:        http://dx.doi.org/10.17487/RFC7959

The Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) is a RESTful transfer
protocol for constrained nodes and networks.  Basic CoAP messages
work well for small payloads from sensors and actuators; however,
applications will need to transfer larger payloads occasionally --
for instance, for firmware updates.  In contrast to HTTP, where TCP
does the grunt work of segmenting and resequencing, CoAP is based on
datagram transports such as UDP or Datagram Transport Layer Security
(DTLS).  These transports only offer fragmentation, which is even
more problematic in constrained nodes and networks, limiting the
maximum size of resource representations that can practically be
transferred.

Instead of relying on IP fragmentation, this specification extends
basic CoAP with a pair of "Block" options for transferring multiple
blocks of information from a resource representation in multiple
request-response pairs.  In many important cases, the Block options
enable a server to be truly stateless: the server can handle each
block transfer separately, with no need for a connection setup or
other server-side memory of previous block transfers.  Essentially,
the Block options provide a minimal way to transfer larger
representations in a block-wise fashion.

A CoAP implementation that does not support these options generally
is limited in the size of the representations that can be exchanged,
so there is an expectation that the Block options will be widely used
in CoAP implementations.  Therefore, this specification updates
RFC 7252.

This document is a product of the Constrained RESTful Environments Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions
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From: "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>
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Subject: Re: [core] Last Call: <draft-ietf-core-etch-02.txt> (Patch and Fetch Methods for Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP)) to Proposed Standard
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> On Aug 24, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
> 
> "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com> writes:
> 
>>> The document has a reference to obsolete RFC 2616, this is intentional.
>> 
>> What is that supposed to mean?  The reference is intentionally wrong?
> 
> RFC 7252 is referencing RFC 2616 for its security considerations,
> because the RFC 723x series wasn't out yet at the time CoAP was
> completed.  draft-ietf-core-etch references RFC 7252 for its security
> considerations.  This implies a reference to RFC 2616 as well, which we
> decided to make explicit (it's hard to be explicit enough about security
> considerations).  We could change that to leave it implicit, rendering
> the downref less visible.

If you think security considerations are important, they should be included
in the draft and specific to the additions made by that draft.  Specifying
them by reference to HTTP would have made sense if you had specified CORE
semantics by reference to HTTP (instead, the method definitions were copied,
which creates a fork of the protocol).

Regardless, this draft does not change the security considerations of RFC7252
(nor 2616, nor 7230).  There is no reason to reference considerations that
are not applicable to the *changes* introduced by this draft. 7252 is already
a normative requirement and its normative dependency on 2616 is not changed
by 2616 becoming obsolete -- the text is effectively imported by reference.

If there are NEW security considerations introduced by ONLY the addition
of these two methods to the semantics of CORE, then that is what should
be in the security considerations of this draft.  Just that and a generic
link to RFC7252's security section.  Nothing else.

>> I looked at the text and it should be referencing section 9 of RFC7231,
>> not section 15 of RFC2616.  Just fix the reference or remove it entirely
> 
> While we could add RFC 7231 to the above reference (which, as I said is
> already implicitly there), a single security considerations section out
> of one of the RFC 723x documents does not cover the entire security
> considerations of RFC 2616 (e.g., section 15.7 does very much apply,
> some of which seems to have been moved to RFC 7234).  Do you see
> anything specific in RFC 7231 that we should cover that isn't mentioned
> in RFC 2616?

It doesn't matter -- they are not relevant to these two methods.
If there is something relevant from HTTP caching, then just copy
the text and make it specific to these two methods.

HTTP semantics could have been used verbatim by CORE, without any
changes, so a normative reference to RFC 7231 (HTTP Semantics) would
have been appropriate IF the CORE methods and status codes were specified
by reference and not forked into your spec.

My long-term advice would be to delete 50% of CORE spec and replace
that with normative references to HTTP, but I wouldn't bother until after
HTTP/1.1 advances to Standard status.

> We could use draft-ietf-core-etch more or less randomly as the point
> where we finally clean up the editorial issues caused by the sharding of
> RFC 2616.  The authors so far did not see a reason to do that exactly in
> this document, which describes functionality not really touched by that
> sharding.  Should we, anyway?

No, we can't make updates to a proposed standard more or less randomly.
They have to be within scope and reviewed by the right folks.
Method specs (which define optional features to be deployed at leisure)
are not the place to make updates to the underlying protocol.
People who are not implementing a given method should feel free to
ignore its specification.

I would actually go further and say that these two methods should have
been specified in two separate documents, but it's far too late for that
comment.

Cheers,

Roy T. Fielding                     <http://roy.gbiv.com/>
Senior Principal Scientist, Adobe   <https://www.adobe.com/>


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Subject: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
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Hi Matthias,

Understood your suggestion for the individual entry points.
But how to call the set of related entry points URI/resource?

BTW it is possible to define abbreviations or acronyms in the beginning 
of the document;
so that would be "service ep URI/resource" or even shorter?

Peter

Kovatsch, Matthias schreef op 2016-08-26 13:19:
> Hi
> 
> My suggestion: These are three different RESTful service entry points.
> So depending on what exactly we are talking about, we have:
> 
> - entry point URI (e.g., coap:/rd.example.com/rd)
> - entry point resource (e.g., /rd of a specific server)
> 
> A more explicit version would be to call it "service entry point
> URI/resource" all the time.
> 
> Ciao
> Matthias
> 
>> -----UrsprÃ¼ngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: core [mailto:core-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Michael Koster
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. August 2016 01:42
>> An: consultancy@vanderstok.org
>> Cc: core@ietf.org WG
>> Betreff: Re: [core] Resource Directory: Use of /rd in path
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> We define three "function sets" in RD. They are Registration 
>> (rt=core.rd), Lookup
>> (rt=core.rd-lookup) and Group (rt=core.rd-group). Each of these has an 
>> API entry
>> URI that we suggest conventional usage of /rd, /rd-lookup, and 
>> /rd-group
>> 
>> Whatever we do to improve the terminology from "function set" to "REST 
>> API
>> entry point" or whatever we choose, it needs to be done consistently 
>> in the
>> document for all 3 cases.
>> 
>> I don't think "container path" is necessarily a better choice.
>> 
>> Hannes, Carsten, anyone, do you have a suggestion for what we should 
>> call these
>> different API entry points?
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Michael
>> 
>> 
>> > On Aug 16, 2016, at 12:35 AM, peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Hannes, Carsten,
>> >
>> > I will provide a phrase in the RD draft that the use of the path "/rd" in all
>> examples is the convention used for the RD path in this draft.
>> >
>> > Concerning the template I propose:
>> >
>> > rd :=  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path of the
>> >      RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  The value "rd" is
>> > used as an example value throughout this document
>> >
>> > and as a side:
>> > Replace RD Function Set path by: RD container path?
>> >
>> > Greetings,
>> >
>> > Peter
>> >
>> >
>> > Hannes Tschofenig schreef op 2016-08-11 08:31:
>> >> Hi Peter,
>> >> I only want to have clarify what use of /rd is there in the examples
>> >> because of the recommendation and what has been chosen for convenience.
>> >> Ciao
>> >> Hannes
>> >> On 08/10/2016 05:40 PM, peter van der Stok wrote:
>> >>> Hi Carsten,
>> >>> Thanks for the suggestions, but the changes do not look that
>> >>> essential for the iteroperability and implementation to me.
>> >>> I would prefer to get the draft out as is.
>> >>> Hannes thinks differently?
>> >>> Peter
>> >>> Carsten Bormann schreef op 2016-08-10 13:39:
>> >>>> peter van der Stok wrote:
>> >>>>> Hi Carsten,
>> >>>>> Do I understand correctly that you recommend to keep the current
>> >>>>> template wording?
>> >>>>> URI Template:  /{+rd}{?ep,d,et,lt,con}
>> >>>>>   URI Template Variables:
>> >>>>>      rd :=  RD Function Set path (mandatory).  This is the path of the
>> >>>>>         RD Function Set, as obtained from discovery.  An RD SHOULD use
>> >>>>>         the value "rd" for this variable whenever possible.
>> >>>> Maybe a better wording of the last sentence would be:
>> >>>> As a convention that aids in debugging, a server can use the value "rd"
>> >>>> unless it prefers a different value.
>> >>>> Gets rid of the SHOULD, and makes it clear the the server is free
>> >>>> to choose (as per RFC 7320).
>> >>>> (And maybe we can get rid of "Function Set" in a separate effort.)
>> >>>> GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > core mailing list
>> > core@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> core mailing list
>> core@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


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From nobody Mon Aug 29 00:18:53 2016
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From: peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl>
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Subject: Re: [core] draft-bierman-core-yid-00.txt questions
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Alexander Pelov schreef op 2016-08-25 18:14:
> Hi Andy,
> 
>> Le 25 aoÃ»t 2016 Ã  18:02, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> a
>> Ã©crit :
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Michel Veillette
>> <Michel.Veillette@trilliantinc.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Andy, Hi David
>>> 
>>> There is no requirement to have multiple tools or algorithms
>>> producing the same result.
>> 
>> Then it isn't auto-numbering.
>> It is just an offline tool to assign numbers to YANG statements.
> 
> It is a way to assign numbersâ€¦ automatically. Auto-numbering.
> 
>> So there is no need to standardize SID at all.
>> There is just a list of [id, path] mappings in a registry entry,
>> which is what the YID draft proposes.  (centralized or distributed
>> list of mappings).
> 
> I think we agree here.

I am also convinced there is much overlap in the SID and YID drafts
The conclusions by Alexander are a bit fast for me.

What happened to the discussion about module number reservation against 
SID range reservation?
I don't think the strains on IANA (enormous or not) are an issue, but 
the strains on the module writers and what rules they are willing to 
follow.
For me it is the process of establishing identifiers, with a discussion 
about freedom of choice to companies, and scopes of inter-operability 
(world-wide, SDO wide,--), that is central here.

The YID draft proposes a subset of what can be
> achieved by the SID draft. The YID draft proposes a more complex
> process, which does not ensure interoperability, and which puts
> enormous strain on IANA, with no description of how a more generic
> system will work.
> 
> Everything you can do with YID you can do with SID. Not everything you
> can do with SID can be achieved with YID.
> SID is simpler.
> SID cares for ID exhaustion.
> SID has running code.
> 


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From: peter van der Stok <stokcons@xs4all.nl>
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Hi Michael,

I do support the draft, but have some questions after a first reading.

section 4 before 4.1; the operations are the functions?

In the discover section 4.1 the base location /ps is nowhere returned, 
only in the example this becomes clear.
Is this base /ps compulsory?
In the resource directory the base location is returned and the value 
/rd is recommended.
Would it not be better to recommend the value /ps here as well?
Does the resource type core.ps need to be declared to IANA?

The concept of "link to it's pubsub function set" is a bit complex for 
me; why not write /.well-known/core and /ps
Otherwise I recommend to introduce the "link to the pubsub function set" 
in section 2.

In section 4.2 Create.
If I understand correctly, "CREATE" <topic> creates a resource at the 
broker with path name /ps/topic
Why not describe it like that?

I do have problems with understanding what the value of the created 
resource is.
Is that a list of messages, or is that a set of named values described 
in the messages.
That is important to understand the most recent published value of a 
topic.
The content format of a the messages belonging to a topic is specified, 
but its contents is free.

Suppose a topic uses content formats application/json and 
application/merge-patch+json

Suppose two messages arrive at the broker
First message: application/json with {"name" : "topic1", "value" : 10}
Second message: application/merge-patch+json with {"name" : "topic2"}


The content of the  last message to subscribers is clear; but what does 
the READ return; Should that be {"name" : "topic2", "value" : 10}
or {"name" : "topic2"}, or both messages?

The answer is important with respect to section 6.

My personal preference is that the value of a pubsub resource is a set 
of messages.

Greetings,

peter


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From: James Nguyen <james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 14:41:54 -0400
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Hi,

I support this I-D as I think it's useful.

I have a question.

Section 3.5 Brokerless pubsub

- I suggest to move this section to section 3.1.

- This architecture is more applicable to CoAP Proxy.

- I also suggest to add the pubsub capability at CoAP Proxy.

James


On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:10 AM, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez <jaime.jimenez@ericsso=
n.com>
wrote:

> Dear CoRE-WG,
>
> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been requested
> for draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub. At the IETF meeting the room consensus
> was strongly supporting adoption (~10 people). Please reply to the list
> with your comments, including although not limited to whether or not you
> support adoption. Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.
>
> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on *Au=
gust
> 26, 2016*.
>
> Thanks,
> Jaime and Carsten
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core
>
>


--=20
James Nguyen
Email: james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com

--94eb2c0dee30b566fb053b4e55da
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi,<br><br></div>I support this I-D as=
 I think it&#39;s useful.=C2=A0 <br><br></div>I have a question.<br><br></d=
iv>Section 3.5 Brokerless pubsub<br><br></div>- I suggest to move this sect=
ion to section 3.1.<br>=C2=A0<br><div><div>- This architecture is more appl=
icable to CoAP Proxy.=C2=A0 <br><br></div><div>- I also suggest to add the =
pubsub capability at CoAP Proxy.<br><br></div><div>James<br></div><div><div=
><br></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:10 AM, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank=
">jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Dear CoRE-WG,<br>
<br>
As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been requested f=
or draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub. At the IETF meeting the room=C2=A0consens=
us was strongly supporting adoption (~10=C2=A0people).=C2=A0Please reply to=
 the list with your comments, including although
 not=C2=A0limited to whether=C2=A0or not you support adoption. Non-authors =
are especially=C2=A0encouraged to comment.<br>
<br>
Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on=C2=A0=
<b>August 26, 2016</b>.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Jaime and Carsten
<div><br>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
core mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org">core@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/core</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">James Nguyen<br>Email: <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">james.huy.nguyen=
@gmail.com</a></div>
</div>

--94eb2c0dee30b566fb053b4e55da--


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References: <790816B5-41F5-487E-B0B8-0BA88F714877@ericsson.com> <3A9C9924-D032-4BEE-9B78-DF94680A7C95@ericsson.com>
From: Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com>
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No surprise as author I support the draft..

Regards, Christian


On 26/08/2016 10:01 PM, Jaime JimÃ©nez wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> As people are on vacation, letâ€™s extend the deadline few days more to 
> allow people to comment.
>
> Ciao!
> - - Jaime Jimenez
>
>> On 15 Aug 2016, at 18:05, Jaime JimÃ©nez <jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com 
>> <mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear CoRE-WG,
>>
>> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been 
>> requested for draft-groves-core-dynlink. This draft is the result of 
>> a document split and thus the initial status is that of adoption, 
>> nevertheless that has to be confirmed on the list. Please reply with 
>> your comments, including although not limited to whether or not you 
>> support adoption. Non-authors are especially encouraged to comment.
>>
>> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on 
>> *August 26, 2016*.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jaime and Carsten
>


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From: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>
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Random Thoughts:

Introduction:  Given the scope of the analysis, I do not believe that you
can restrict your solution to just dealing with the forwarding case.
Specifically I think you need to deal with the pub/sub cases with or w/o an
agent.

Introduction:  Is the determination of content being present based on the
length of the content or on the message type?  For example think of a POST
or a response with a zero length body.  I would tend to create a COSE body
in these cases rather than use the option for the body.

Section 2 - I am not sure that the SHOULD NOT on caching makes complete
sense.  It would make sense to cache the response if correlated to the
original request for reliability.   Caching also makes sense in the pub-sub
world

Section 2 - how does setting Max-Age interact with pub-sub and w/ caching
for reliable transmission?

Section 2 - the last sentence seems to be odd - are you really given an
example of option length or how different option lengths are encoded?

Section 3 - s/common keying material/common shared secret material/

Section 3 - s/of forward secret keying material/of secret material with the
property of forward secrecy/

Section 3.1 - You need to add a field for who is being talked to on the
client side of the context.  There is nothing to say that Cids are unique
for the client and therefore it needs to be able to determine which to use
when sending a message to the other side.  This may also be required for
servers when doing unicast in the event that it will spontaneously send
messages.

Section 3.1 - The idea of flip-flopping the context when the client and
server change roles seems to be a very bad idea.  If the client sends
message <Cid, X> and the server never receives it.  Then they flip contexts
and the old server sends <Cid, X> because it swapped server and recipient,
then you have a security leak problem.  Once the contexts are established
they should never be swapped.  I think this is what the last paragraph in
this section is suggesting.

Section 3.2 - there should be a big warning at the top of this section that
this procedure is only run once on a set of common secret material.  Running
it a second time is going to lead to bad things unless there is something
added.

Section 3.2 - I would prefer to add some additional items to the info
structure to make sure that things are going to agree on both sides.  These
would include the algorithm and the lengths of the item being derived.  Look
at the prefix derivation problems that can exist otherwise.

Section 3.2 - I have a problem with the text " The Context Identifier SHALL
be unique for all security contexts used by the party being server." As I am
not sure how to test this.  A statement that a server will check and reject
is testable.  I do not think that one can assume that a TTP will be able to
ensure this as there may be more than one of them and they may assign the
same type of uniqueness indicator (i.e. the addresses of both parties).
Please do not assume there is only one authorization server.

Section 3.2 - There is a fun thing that needs to be thought about.  A client
which sends a token along with the request may try and register the same Cid
more than once because the response to its request may get lost.  This needs
to be documented potentially as saying that the same Cid must result in the
same context being generated.

Section 4 - When doing encryption only, I would remove the I column from
figure 4.  I would just note that "E includes I" but "I" by itself would be
a different proposition.  That is 'I' would be ONLY integrity protected or
integrity protected in a signed or MAC only message.

Section 4 - The second paragraph below table 4 should not be dealing with
duplication  not integrity protection.  That is the items it needs to talk
about are 1) encryption or not and 2) duplicate or not and if it is
duplicated are they evaluated separately or must the contents be the same -
with the addition of new security services then it would also make sense to
talk about 3) integrity protect or not.

Section 5 - I would suggest making the mandatory algorithm declarations in a
single location so that it is easy to find rather than having it in multiple
locations.

Section 5 - Your maximum sequence number is going to be much smaller than
2^56-1.  You need to factor in the reduced sized tag and the limits for GCM
into this size.  I will need to do some research to figure out what the
correct limit is.  It is going to be closer to 2^32 w/o adjusting for the
abbreviated tag.

Section 6.1 - OSCOAP should not be a challenge response protocol so this
paragraph is troubling.  It needs to be able to support more than just this
one situation.

I am going to play with some other details so I will probably have more
comments following this.

Jim










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Subject: [core] No-Response option is now available.
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Dear list,
The No-Response option for CoAP is now available at: 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7967 as an Informational RFC. The option is 
registered by IANA and is available at (
http://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.xhtml#option-numbers
).
Thanks to all the reviewers whose comments and support enriched the work.
 
Regards
Abhijan Bhattacharyya
Associate Consultant
Scientist, Innovation Lab, Kolkata, India
Tata Consultancy Services
Mailto: abhijan.bhattacharyya@tcs.com
Website: http://www.tcs.com
____________________________________________
Experience certainty.   IT Services
                        Business Solutions
                        Consulting
____________________________________________
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<font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear list,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The No-Response option for CoAP is now
available at: </font><a href=https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/rfc7967.pdf><a href=https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7967><font size=2 color=blue face="sans-serif">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7967</font></a></a><font size=2 face="sans-serif">
as an Informational RFC. The option is registered by IANA and is available
at (</font><a href="http://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.xhtml#option-numbers"><font size=2 color=blue face="sans-serif">http://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.xhtml#option-numbers</font></a><font size=2 face="sans-serif">).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks to all the reviewers whose comments
and support enriched the work.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards<br>
Abhijan Bhattacharyya<br>
Associate Consultant<br>
Scientist, Innovation Lab, Kolkata, India<br>
Tata Consultancy Services<br>
Mailto: abhijan.bhattacharyya@tcs.com<br>
Website: </font><a href=http://www.tcs.com/><font size=2 face="sans-serif">http://www.tcs.com</font></a><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
____________________________________________<br>
Experience certainty. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IT Services<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Business Solutions<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Consulting<br>
____________________________________________<br>
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Subject: Re: [core] No-Response option is now available.
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Congratulations to Abhijan and the other authors, and to all the people
who put in their time reviewing and contributing to this work!

This is a prominent instance of making the principle work that new CoAP
Options can be created by registering them.  This model already has
worked quite well in getting the requirements of specific areas of
application into the CBOR ecosystem; I looking forward to more such
activities coming in for CoAP as well.

GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten


Abhijan Bhattacharyya wrote:
> Dear list,
> The No-Response option for CoAP is now available at:
> <https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/rfc7967.pdf>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7967as
> an Informational RFC. The option is registered by IANA and is available
> at
> (http://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.xhtml#option-numbers).
> 
> Thanks to all the reviewers whose comments and support enriched the work.
>  
> Regards
> Abhijan Bhattacharyya
> Associate Consultant
> Scientist, Innovation Lab, Kolkata, India
> Tata Consultancy Services
> Mailto: abhijan.bhattacharyya@tcs.com
> Website: http://www.tcs.com <http://www.tcs.com/>
> ____________________________________________
> Experience certainty.        IT Services
>                        Business Solutions
>                        Consulting
> ____________________________________________
> 
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Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_Working_Group_Adoption_of_draft-kos?= =?utf-8?q?ter-core-coap-pubsub?=
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--Apple-Mail=_3E515CA3-E394-4EDF-94B4-F72E5E97169A
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Dear all,

+1 on the adoption of this draft. For me, the PubSub functionality is =
essential and without it we=E2=80=99re leaving a big hole in the CoAP =
realm.

There are of course things which we should discuss, and most have been =
pointed out by the other supporters.=20

A point on which we should be aware is that if we want application level =
security, this will imply the use of Asymmetric keys / Certificates. If =
we want to keep PSK as a way of authentication, then probably we should =
provide some mechanisms for the Broker to be used as a trusted =
third-party, which validates the end-devices.

Best,
Alexander


> Le 30 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 20:41, James Nguyen =
<james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit :
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I support this I-D as I think it's useful. =20
>=20
> I have a question.
>=20
> Section 3.5 Brokerless pubsub
>=20
> - I suggest to move this section to section 3.1.
> =20
> - This architecture is more applicable to CoAP Proxy. =20
>=20
> - I also suggest to add the pubsub capability at CoAP Proxy.
>=20
> James
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:10 AM, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez =
<jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com <mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> Dear CoRE-WG,
>=20
> As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been =
requested for draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub. At the IETF meeting the =
room consensus was strongly supporting adoption (~10 people). Please =
reply to the list with your comments, including although not limited to =
whether or not you support adoption. Non-authors are especially =
encouraged to comment.
>=20
> Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call on =
August 26, 2016.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Jaime and Carsten
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> James Nguyen
> Email: james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com =
<mailto:james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com>_______________________________________=
________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core


--Apple-Mail=_3E515CA3-E394-4EDF-94B4-F72E5E97169A
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Dear all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">+1 on the adoption of this draft. For me, the PubSub =
functionality is essential and without it we=E2=80=99re leaving a big =
hole in the CoAP realm.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There are of course things which we should discuss, and most =
have been pointed out by the other supporters.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A point on which we =
should be aware is that if we want application level security, this will =
imply the use of Asymmetric keys / Certificates. If we want to keep PSK =
as a way of authentication, then probably we should provide some =
mechanisms for the Broker to be used as a trusted third-party, which =
validates the end-devices.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Best,</div><div class=3D"">Alexander</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Le 30 ao=C3=BBt 2016 =C3=A0 =
20:41, James Nguyen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hi,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I support this I-D as =
I think it's useful.&nbsp; <br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I have a =
question.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Section 3.5 Brokerless =
pubsub<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>- I suggest to move this =
section to section 3.1.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">- This architecture is more applicable to =
CoAP Proxy.&nbsp; <br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- =
I also suggest to add the pubsub capability at CoAP Proxy.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">James<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 11:10 AM, =
Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">jaime.jimenez@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">
Dear CoRE-WG,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As we discussed at last IETF96, working group adoption has been =
requested for draft-koster-core-coap-pubsub. At the IETF meeting the =
room&nbsp;consensus was strongly supporting adoption =
(~10&nbsp;people).&nbsp;Please reply to the list with your comments, =
including although
 not&nbsp;limited to whether&nbsp;or not you support adoption. =
Non-authors are especially&nbsp;encouraged to comment.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Since there are several concurrent WGA calls, we will end the call =
on&nbsp;<b class=3D"">August 26, 2016</b>.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Thanks,<br class=3D"">
Jaime and Carsten
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>

<br class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
core mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr =
class=3D"">listinfo/core</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- <br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature"=
 data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">James Nguyen<br class=3D"">Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com</a></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">core =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_3E515CA3-E394-4EDF-94B4-F72E5E97169A--


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Subject: [core] Implications of IP address / port changes for CoAP & Co
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Hi all,

in the OMA device management group we have been discussing the 
implications of IP address and/or port number changes of devices 
(particularly with devices that sleep for an extended period of time).

The challenge from a protocol point of view is to use an identifier that 
does not depend on the IP address and port. Of course, when a IP packet 
has to be sent to a specific node then IP address and port information 
has to be used from somewhere but my expectation is that at least the 
protocol machinery shouldn't break when an IP address changes (or there 
should be a story for how to recover).

In CoAP the 'endpoint' appears to be an important identifier. In an 
attempt to define what an endpoint is the CoAP specification is a bit 
confusing:

Section 1.2 says:

"
    Endpoint
       An entity participating in the CoAP protocol.  Colloquially, an
       endpoint lives on a "Node", although "Host" would be more
       consistent with Internet standards usage, and is further
       identified by transport-layer multiplexing information that can
       include a UDP port number and a security association
       (Section 4.1).
"	

Section 4.1 of RFC 7252 says:
	
"
    A CoAP endpoint is the source or destination of a CoAP message.  The
    specific definition of an endpoint depends on the transport being
    used for CoAP.  For the transports defined in this specification, the
    endpoint is identified depending on the security mode used (see
    Section 9): With no security, the endpoint is solely identified by an
    IP address and a UDP port number.  With other security modes, the
    endpoint is identified as defined by the security mode.
"

The two definitions do not appear to be in sync, particularly when using 
DTLS to secure CoAP since the DTLS record layer adds nothing with 
respect to additional multiplexing. I also did not find text that 
describes what the different endpoint definition is when DTLS is used.

In any case, when DTLS is used an IP address / port change at the client 
will prevent the CoAP server from finding the right security context and 
a new (hopefully abbreviated) handshake has to be run.

Luckily the implications of an IP address/port change are quite minimal 
for CoAP itself since the only impact (as far as I can tell) is with 
regards to the use of request/response exchange, as described in Section 
5.3.2 "Request/Response Matching Rules". The likelihood that a client 
changes IP address in the middle of a request/response interaction are 
IMHO minimal.

The story is more interesting when we look at extensions to CoAP, like 
CoAP Observe. Section 4.1 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7641 says:

"
    The entry in the list of observers is keyed by the client endpoint
    and the token specified by the client in the request.  If an entry
    with a matching endpoint/token pair is already present in the list
    (which, for example, happens when the client wishes to reinforce its
    interest in a resource), the server MUST NOT add a new entry but MUST
    replace or update the existing one.
"

With Observe a token is used for demultiplexing (in addition to the 
endpoint info). I assume that the spec uses the same definition of 
endpoint as in CoAP.

While the spec does not say what is actually being updated or replaced 
one can assume that a client sending a request with a new IP address and 
port (which corresponds to the endpoint definition in CoAP) gets at 
least that information updated.

The spec is IMHO unclear what should happen in case of an IP 
address/port change. I suspect that an implementation would send a new 
register message and the server would update state. Of course, when the 
IP address / port of the client is not in sync with what is being stored 
at the server then the notifications sent by the server will not reach 
the client.

The story for RD appears to be different again. First, there appears to 
be a different definition of endpoint being used (which I prefer more). 
For multiplexing it does not use IP address & port information. Of 
course, RD will still have to maintain this information but at least one 
can be sure that packets are not dropped after the IP address and/or 
port at the client change.

Section 11.1 of draft-ietf-core-resource-directory-08 says:

"
    An Endpoint is determined to be unique by an RD by the Endpoint
    identifier parameter included during Registration, and any associated
    TLS or DTLS security bindings.  An Endpoint MUST NOT be identified by
    its protocol, port or IP address as these may change over the
    lifetime of an Endpoint.
"

It appears that the way how state is indexed is different throughout the 
specifications developed in the CORE working group and I am curious 
whether someone else has been looking at the implications of IP address 
and/or port changes on the protocol operation. I would certainly 
appreciate your thoughts on this topic.

Ciao
Hannes


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From: Michael Koster <michaeljohnkoster@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 08:35:07 -0700
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To: Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [core] My Notes about draft-ietf-core-interfaces-05
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Hi Hannes,

Thanks!

Comments below:

> On Aug 26, 2016, at 12:09 AM, Christian Groves =
<Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hello Hannes,
>=20
> Please see below.
>=20
> Regards, Christian
>=20
>=20
> On 3/08/2016 5:49 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> I read through draft-ietf-core-interfaces-05 and I have a few =
questions.
>>=20
>> I understand the functionality and the desire to standardize =
interfaces
>> since the CoRE Link Format only introduces the concepts but leaves =
the
>> details (i.e., the value for the if parameter) unspecified.
>>=20
>> 1) Who came up with these terms?
> [CNG] I'm not sure, various related technologies such as Java and HTML =
utilise some of the concepts e.g. collection. I'll let one of the =
original authors answer this. I agree the definitions could use some =
more "meat" on them. Something that i'll work on.
>>=20
>> Here, for example, is the definition of the 'collection':
>>=20
>> "A Collection is a resource which represents one or more related
>> resources. Within this document, a collection refers to a collection
>> with characteristics defined in this document."
>>=20
>> My understanding of the collection function is that of a view in an =
SQL
>> database. Is this correct?
>>=20
>> The definition of function set, interface, and other terms also =
appears
>> to be somewhat unusual. Isn't there something we could re-use from =
the
>> Web context?
>>=20

[MJK] The concept of a collection is very common in web architecture. =
Check out RFC6573  https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6573 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6573>  I think we could add examples to =
CoRE Interfaces using the item relation type to illustrate this.

[MJK] The concept of "interface" was invented by an earlier author than =
me, but has been adopted by OCF in their specification. It fills a gap =
between media types and "profiles", which are not well adopted either.

[MJK] Function set is not so well adopted and may be changed to a more =
colloquial description.

Which other terms need further definition?


>> 2) Is this document only applicable to CoAP or also to HTTP? In =
general,
>> I get worried when functionality is only defined for use with CoAP =
and
>> is not usable with HTTP, and HTTP/2.
> [CNG] Also to HTTP, as Core-Link format may be used by HTTP.
>>=20
>> 3) Is it possible to include some practical examples? The document
>> currently includes a number of examples but those are abstract.
> [CNG] Did you have something in mind?
>>=20
>> 4) I am curious why SenML was selected. I have been trying to =
understand
>> the relationship with LWM2M and LWM2M, for example, does not use =
SenML.
>> SenML feels like a somewhat heavy format since it includes meta-data
>> that most applications don't need.
> [CNG] You mention LWM2M and LWM2M I'm not sure what the 2nd instance =
is? With regards to LWM2M the specification uses the "interface" concept =
in a similar manner to what is defined in the draft. I.e. what =
operations may be performed on resources via the interface is described. =
The LWM2M specification does reference the core interfaces draft but =
that's only in the context of a note i.e. "/Note: How to indicate the =
Attributes in the message payload is specified in [CoRE_Interface]./" I =
think that needs to be updated to make reference to the dynamic linking =
draft we have split out.
>=20
[MJK] "LWM2M, for example, does not use SenML." (?) I don't understand =
this comment. As far as I can tell, LWM2M normatively requires SenML. =
=46rom the LWM2M TS, Sec. 6.3.4, JSON:
"LWM2M Clients supporting the JSON format MUST use the format defined in =
this section for responses with multiple resource values. They MAY use =
the format defined in this section for responses with single value. The =
format MUST comply to [SENML] JSON representation extended for =
supporting LWM2M Object Link data type and MUST support for all =
attributes defined in Table 17. According to [SENML] semantics, JSON =
data format in LWM2M, is composed of optional attributes (Base Time, =
Base Name) and of a mandatory Resource Array having one or more entries. =
Each array entry contains several optional or mandatory parameters =
(Name, Time...)."

>>=20
>> 5) For most functionality no use cases are presented. The exception =
is
>> the collection where a use case is presented in Section 4.2. I am,
>> however, not sure that the 'Gradual Reveal' functionality is really
>> useful as such.
> [CNG] The draft was accepted back in mid 2013 (before I started =
following the CORE WG) I would have assumed there were some use cases =
presented in order for the WG to adopt the work. Perhaps one the =
original authors has them?
>>=20
>> 6) Who is using the functionality described in this document? The
>> editor's note talks about alignment with OCF. Since I am not familiar
>> with the functionality standardized by the OCF I cannot say how much
>> different this document is from the OCF-defined features.
> [CNG] The note was simply a place holder for further work that needs =
to be done. The relationship with OCF is something that needs further =
description. This is something hopefully Michael will be able to help =
with.

[MJK] OCF uses the "if" link atttriute in much the same way as described =
in this draft. It is registered in the IANA CoRE Parameters registry.
>>=20
>> 7) The structure of the document is not well-balance. For example,
>> Section 3 consists of one sentence. The content of Section 5.8 is
>> meaningless and Section 6.3 "Versioning" is difficult to understand. =
The
>> security consideration section as well as the IANA consideration =
section
>> is at best incomplete. Appendix A contains no textual description of
>> what is shown in the tables.
> [CNG] Yes it needs work. I explained at the meeting this document was =
a simple split of the existing text. I intend to provide some =
enhancements for the next version.
>> 7) Who is the editor of this document?
> [CNG] I'm now the editor. So thanks for the comments there something =
to consider for the next revision.
>>=20
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> core mailing list
>> core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> core mailing list
> core@ietf.org <mailto:core@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Hannes,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks!</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Comments below:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 26, 2016, at 12:09 AM, =
Christian Groves &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Christian.Groves@nteczone.com" =
class=3D"">Christian.Groves@nteczone.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Hello Hannes,</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Please see below.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Regards, Christian</span><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">On 3/08/2016 5:49 PM, Hannes Tschofenig =
wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">Hi all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I read through =
draft-ietf-core-interfaces-05 and I have a few questions.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I understand the functionality and the desire =
to standardize interfaces<br class=3D"">since the CoRE Link Format only =
introduces the concepts but leaves the<br class=3D"">details (i.e., the =
value for the if parameter) unspecified.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">1) =
Who came up with these terms?<br class=3D""></blockquote><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[CNG] I'm not sure, various related technologies =
such as Java and HTML utilise some of the concepts e.g. collection. I'll =
let one of the original authors answer this. I agree the definitions =
could use some more "meat" on them. Something that i'll work =
on.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Here, for example, is the definition of =
the 'collection':<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">"A Collection is a =
resource which represents one or more related<br class=3D"">resources. =
Within this document, a collection refers to a collection<br =
class=3D"">with characteristics defined in this document."<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">My understanding of the collection function is =
that of a view in an SQL<br class=3D"">database. Is this correct?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The definition of function set, interface, and =
other terms also appears<br class=3D"">to be somewhat unusual. Isn't =
there something we could re-use from the<br class=3D"">Web context?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">[MJK] The concept of a collection is very common in web =
architecture. Check out RFC6573 &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6573" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6573</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;I think we =
could add examples to CoRE Interfaces using the item relation type to =
illustrate this.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>[MJK] The concept =
of "interface" was invented by an earlier author than me, but has been =
adopted by OCF in their specification. It fills a gap between media =
types and "profiles", which are not well adopted either.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>[MJK] Function set is not so well adopted and may =
be changed to a more colloquial description.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Which other terms need further =
definition?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">2) Is this document =
only applicable to CoAP or also to HTTP? In general,<br class=3D"">I get =
worried when functionality is only defined for use with CoAP and<br =
class=3D"">is not usable with HTTP, and HTTP/2.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">[CNG] Also to HTTP, =
as Core-Link format may be used by HTTP.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">3) Is it =
possible to include some practical examples? The document<br =
class=3D"">currently includes a number of examples but those are =
abstract.<br class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[CNG] Did you have something in mind?</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">4) I am =
curious why SenML was selected. I have been trying to understand<br =
class=3D"">the relationship with LWM2M and LWM2M, for example, does not =
use SenML.<br class=3D"">SenML feels like a somewhat heavy format since =
it includes meta-data<br class=3D"">that most applications don't =
need.<br class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">[CNG] You mention =
LWM2M and LWM2M I'm not sure what the 2nd instance is? With regards to =
LWM2M the specification uses the "interface" concept in a similar manner =
to what is defined in the draft. I.e. what operations may be performed =
on resources via the interface is described. The LWM2M specification =
does reference the core interfaces draft but that's only in the context =
of a note i.e. "/Note: How to indicate the Attributes in the message =
payload is specified in [CoRE_Interface]./" I think that needs to be =
updated to make reference to the dynamic linking draft we have split =
out.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div>[MJK] "LWM2M, for example, does not =
use SenML." (?) I don't understand this comment. As far as I can tell, =
LWM2M normatively requires SenML. =46rom the LWM2M TS, Sec. 6.3.4, =
JSON:</div><div>






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<!--StartFragment--><p class=3D"MsoNormal">"LWM2M Clients
supporting the JSON format MUST use the format defined in this section =
for
responses with multiple resource values. They MAY use the format defined =
in
this section for responses with single value.&nbsp;<span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">The format MUST comply to [SENML] JSON
representation extended for supporting LWM2M Object Link data type and =
MUST
support for all attributes defined in </span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">Table 17</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">.&nbsp;</span>According to [SENML] semantics, JSON data
format in LWM2M, is composed of optional attributes (Base Time, Base =
Name) and
of a mandatory Resource Array having one or more entries. Each array =
entry
contains several optional or mandatory parameters (Name, Time...)."</p>

<!--EndFragment--></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">5) For most functionality no use cases =
are presented. The exception is<br class=3D"">the collection where a use =
case is presented in Section 4.2. I am,<br class=3D"">however, not sure =
that the 'Gradual Reveal' functionality is really<br class=3D"">useful =
as such.<br class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[CNG] The draft was accepted back in mid 2013 =
(before I started following the CORE WG) I would have assumed there were =
some use cases presented in order for the WG to adopt the work. Perhaps =
one the original authors has them?</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">6) Who =
is using the functionality described in this document? The<br =
class=3D"">editor's note talks about alignment with OCF. Since I am not =
familiar<br class=3D"">with the functionality standardized by the OCF I =
cannot say how much<br class=3D"">different this document is from the =
OCF-defined features.<br class=3D""></blockquote><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[CNG] The note was simply a place holder for =
further work that needs to be done. The relationship with OCF is =
something that needs further description. This is something hopefully =
Michael will be able to help with.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>[MJK] OCF uses the "if" link atttriute in much the same =
way as described in this draft. It is registered in the IANA CoRE =
Parameters registry.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">7) The =
structure of the document is not well-balance. For example,<br =
class=3D"">Section 3 consists of one sentence. The content of Section =
5.8 is<br class=3D"">meaningless and Section 6.3 "Versioning" is =
difficult to understand. The<br class=3D"">security consideration =
section as well as the IANA consideration section<br class=3D"">is at =
best incomplete. Appendix A contains no textual description of<br =
class=3D"">what is shown in the tables.<br class=3D""></blockquote><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[CNG] Yes it needs work. I explained at the =
meeting this document was a simple split of the existing text. I intend =
to provide some enhancements for the next version.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">7) Who is the editor of =
this document?<br class=3D""></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">[CNG] I'm now the editor. So thanks for the =
comments there something to consider for the next revision.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Ciao<br =
class=3D"">Hannes<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">core mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">core mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:core@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">core@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core</a></div></blockquot=
e></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Michael Koster <michaeljohnkoster@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 08:45:36 -0700
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To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Subject: Re: [core] My Notes about draft-ietf-core-interfaces-05
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Hi Hannes,

SenML is used because it is a lightweight data model that can represent =
a collection of resources.=20

The "n" attribute in SenML identifies the resource instance and allows =
multiple resources to be transmitted in a single representation.

The array format has some advantages in processing vs. map formats that =
use application semantics as JSON keys.

SenML maps to CBOR in a compact way.

Most meta data in SenML is optional, and should not need to burden =
applications that don't need it.

Michael

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 12:49 AM, Hannes Tschofenig =
<hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
>=20
> 4) I am curious why SenML was selected. I have been trying to =
understand
> the relationship with LWM2M and LWM2M, for example, does not use =
SenML.
> SenML feels like a somewhat heavy format since it includes meta-data
> that most applications don't need.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Hannes,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">SenML is used because it is a lightweight data model that can =
represent a collection of resources.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The "n" attribute in SenML identifies =
the resource instance and allows multiple resources to be transmitted in =
a single representation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The array format has some advantages in processing vs. map =
formats that use application semantics as JSON keys.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">SenML maps to CBOR in a =
compact way.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Most meta data in SenML is optional, and should not need to =
burden applications that don't need it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Michael</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 3, 2016, at 12:49 AM, Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" =
class=3D"">hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">4) I am curious why SenML was selected. I have =
been trying to understand</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">the relationship with =
LWM2M and LWM2M, for example, does not use SenML.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">SenML feels like a somewhat heavy format since =
it includes meta-data</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">that most applications =
don't need.</span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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