From nobody Thu Aug 1 01:46:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E321200C1 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 01:46:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oDwCioJRQx9j for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 01:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prometheus.amsuess.com (prometheus.amsuess.com [5.9.147.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41B2F1200B8 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 01:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (095129206250.cust.akis.net [95.129.206.250]) by prometheus.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3FB9458D2; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:46:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (unknown [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:a800:ff:fede:b1bf]) by poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82DF126; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:46:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hephaistos.amsuess.com (unknown [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:fd92:577d:e8e:dffa]) by poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E610561; Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: (nullmailer pid 18704 invoked by uid 1000); Thu, 01 Aug 2019 08:45:58 -0000 Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 10:45:58 +0200 From: Christian =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ams=FCss?= To: Jim Schaad Cc: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190801084555.GA2449@hephaistos.amsuess.com> References: <01db01d547f3$6c7eec20$457cc460$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <01db01d547f3$6c7eec20$457cc460$@augustcellars.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Questions & Comments for PubSub updated Proposal X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2019 08:46:29 -0000 --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Jim, hello pubsub authors, my personal take on this: I think that most those points can addressed by a variation on the proposal that has been floating but not made its way into the text yet: Rather than all attributes being attached to the topic, some are on the data resource. Compare the following to item 3.5: Request: GET Response: 2.05 Content Content-Format: CoRAL rdf:type has-published-item true publish -> [ method 3 ] created dt'2019-07-08T15:35:00+0200' last-modified dt'2019-07-08T15:35:00+0200' owner max-rate 50 expires dt'2019-07-15T15:35:00+0200' topic-data { unit "Cel" rt "oic.r.temperature" # that was "topic-title" on the topic in proposal.txt title "My Office Room Temperature" # that was "publisher" on the topic in proposal.txt owner building 18 floor 1 } We'd still need to, for all the properties involved, decide which terms to use and where to attach them, but it completely sidesteps the topic of inheritance (which would indeed be tricky -- the resource type of a control resource is "pubsub topic control resource", if it's a oic.r.temperature at the same time, that's ... odd). A good criterion for whether something is an attribute of the control or the data resource is the question "Does it matter whether this is used in a pubsub context?": If it is, it should be on the control resource, otherwise it's on the data resource. This does still not quite answer this: > 2. It is not clear to me if a data node is supposed to be able to provid= e a > CoRAL document for information that relates to it. If someone only knows the data resource, there's no way back from there to the control resource, and no way to get its metadata (that'd be a PROPFIND-style operation probably, and I don't think we want that). There are still CoRAL statements about the topic, but the easiest way to obtain them is to look into the control resource's CoRAL document that describes the topic as well as above. (Which is also how they could be updated, by PATCHing that resource once a patch format for CoRAL is there, or by PUTting back a modified representation, where the server would reject changes it can't do, like the created date or the topic-data URI). Best regards Christian --=20 To use raw power is to make yourself infinitely vulnerable to greater power= s. -- Bene Gesserit axiom --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIyBAABCAAdFiEECM1tElX6OodcH7CWOY0REtOkveEFAl1Cpr8ACgkQOY0REtOk veHrkQ/4vdwk99KMjNLxxmLzQS5QD9zFGwQGQHYlahPZp9iCyQP44qZ9iZ6ynHEi 5B13d4wr586fLD6cC1CeKNllUijQCbAl5mSoGP93S2+SiSzMIVPy1N0saQ0L9ivL SBapjzDO5BVIWWiG+yhpYtur8ME9z5JtikAeeofIqIy8ZCOV7ShWBWcj2Al6pBc4 59qVCUWtbVJRCzooqY7SskBA6nXWDAPzHbzi1THs+cCOZkFxJ41wm2EAHRq9rF1N P0q+AZxHiUjD7iXe4TJRGM+rVpibW/P7sZsYxNeFnD1PN9vs0XX9MSMPHrvvFpPY c4zkL4ud5hhO3wyO8ulHWAR1pm2RGCglkoYVd1ToJLOmGs3KElt6zb3BXb8TXWuL VRuJHqJFHoXsh2qSDAyH0ezrOF7aln2JbB/LlcZ8Vd00fxWQvbRtSEtgmhKR1Cd8 gTT3kEI4FeEMCLxj2dbeoXnc16avaTn+CoLsz5hMJfcsEoG2vbScCcnjqapK/vf0 BKUI4NMG0CoamA8q74XZEoLemjZEFHU1KZ7kBOMCNqo4wFHP3V7fKrUB991624oU RiCNPN2zuzGe+DQbFUVWYYr2V5Z2S8nea6ntpqveLjn5TyGmkO9YdNdp/hI9VPnI 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Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4E6F1205F0 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2019 08:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 2 Aug 2019 08:48:28 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'Christian_Ams=FCss'?= CC: References: <01db01d547f3$6c7eec20$457cc460$@augustcellars.com> <20190801084555.GA2449@hephaistos.amsuess.com> In-Reply-To: <20190801084555.GA2449@hephaistos.amsuess.com> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 08:48:26 -0700 Message-ID: <02a101d54949$ba303760$2e90a620$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQEvwUqhFQDetsDbheeDSbd9jWEhFwIOMBY0qCKcwYA= X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Questions & Comments for PubSub updated Proposal X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 15:48:48 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Christian Ams=FCss =20 Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:46 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: core@ietf.org Subject: Re: [core] Questions & Comments for PubSub updated Proposal Hello Jim, hello pubsub authors, my personal take on this: I think that most those points can addressed by a variation on the = proposal that has been floating but not made its way into the text yet: Rather than all attributes being attached to the topic, some are on the = data resource. Compare the following to item 3.5: Request: GET Response: 2.05 Content Content-Format: CoRAL rdf:type has-published-item true publish -> [ method 3 ] created dt'2019-07-08T15:35:00+0200' last-modified dt'2019-07-08T15:35:00+0200' owner max-rate 50 expires dt'2019-07-15T15:35:00+0200' topic-data { unit "Cel" rt "oic.r.temperature" # that was "topic-title" on the topic in proposal.txt title "My Office Room Temperature" # that was "publisher" on the topic in proposal.txt owner building 18 floor 1 } We'd still need to, for all the properties involved, decide which terms = to use and where to attach them, but it completely sidesteps the topic of inheritance (which would indeed be tricky -- the resource type of a = control resource is "pubsub topic control resource", if it's a oic.r.temperature = at the same time, that's ... odd). A good criterion for whether something = is an attribute of the control or the data resource is the question "Does it matter whether this is used in a pubsub context?": If it is, it should = be on the control resource, otherwise it's on the data resource. [JLS] Yes - That is very similar to the way that was thinking. I had = not gone as far as renaming some of the fields so that there is more = consistency but that makes things even better. There is the interesting question of what the target is for a creation = post, a patch would use the correct target, but I think that this could be = done as [ path.type: relative-path] which is the closest that I can see to = being the equivalent of "." which would make sense. This does still not quite answer this: > 2. It is not clear to me if a data node is supposed to be able to=20 > provide a CoRAL document for information that relates to it. If someone only knows the data resource, there's no way back from there = to the control resource, and no way to get its metadata (that'd be a PROPFIND-style operation probably, and I don't think we want that). There are still CoRAL statements about the topic, but the easiest way to obtain them is to look into the control resource's CoRAL document that describes the topic as well as above. (Which is also how they could be updated, by PATCHing that resource once a patch format for CoRAL is = there, or by PUTting back a modified representation, where the server would = reject changes it can't do, like the created date or the topic-data URI). [JLS] Right - somebody who know both that this was a pub-sub server and understood CoRAL could do this with=20 REQUEST FETCH rdf:type topic-data This would find and return the information about the topic based on the topic-data path. If you just do link format then you are out of luck. Jim Best regards Christian -- To use raw power is to make yourself infinitely vulnerable to greater powers. -- Bene Gesserit axiom From nobody Sat Aug 3 23:39:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0225112001A for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 23:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JI1FB_ZuyG2o for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 23:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8597::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81529120044 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 23:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-f173.google.com ([209.85.160.173]); authenticated by wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1huABI-0003Rm-Hg; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 08:39:48 +0200 Received: by mail-qt1-f173.google.com with SMTP id w17so33755630qto.10 for ; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 23:39:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV2QKi4WnzX4H6zzIn8wbSdnYwG6S60klgjaYWt7E91DXNw6oTE hOPUkHvHgHzsFKzp/R8+69JVSuevFd1H7uSLLeQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxqOHuDIV5s/l6nuksb3V1RZvCfxWXv/HhSS+sNtzJb4b611ac+SfC1lvMw8wDWWdYIetRjQmhg3D4Opq6GIx0= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4a92:: with SMTP id h18mr9096304qvx.235.1564900787317; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 23:39:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156216537128.14696.5718923978213088624.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB316D@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302EAB316D@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Klaus Hartke Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 08:39:11 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Cc: "core@ietf.org" , "Jon Shallow (supjps-ietf@jpshallow.com)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1564900791; 0aac7675; X-HE-SMSGID: 1huABI-0003Rm-Hg Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] TR: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-core-hop-limit-04.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 06:39:54 -0000 draft-ietf-core-hop-limit-04 addresses all of my WGLC comments in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/SofOKUWfxg8Xztg5BExzxvt0ikU Thank you! Klaus On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 16:54, wrote: > > Hi all, > > We tried to address the comments raised during the WGLC. The main changes= are: > * Include a new section to clarify the intended usage. This one is kindly= provided by Carsten. > * Add a new section to specify HTTP mappings. > * Clarify the usage when there is no space left to prepend a proxy inform= ation. > > Other edits were also made. > > Please let's know if we missed any of the WGLC comments. > > Cheers, > Med > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 3 juillet 2019 16:50 > > =C3=80 : Tirumaleswar Reddy; Jon Shallow; Reddy K; BOUCADAIR Mohamed TG= I/OLN > > Objet : New Version Notification for draft-ietf-core-hop-limit-04.txt > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-core-hop-limit-04.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Mohamed Boucadair and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-ietf-core-hop-limit > > Revision: 04 > > Title: Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) Hop-Limit= Option > > Document date: 2019-07-03 > > Group: core > > Pages: 8 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-core-ho= p- > > limit-04.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-hop- > > limit/ > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-hop-limit-0= 4 > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-core-h= op- > > limit > > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-hop= - > > limit-04 > > > > Abstract: > > The presence of Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) proxies may > > lead to infinite forwarding loops, which is undesirable. To prevent > > and detect such loops, this document specifies the Hop-Limit CoAP > > option. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat From nobody Sat Aug 3 23:45:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD0712006F for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 23:45:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eqOYHjiHHgZ4 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 23:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8597::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CFDD12001A for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 23:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-f173.google.com ([209.85.160.173]); authenticated by wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1huAGx-0001t8-RN; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 08:45:39 +0200 Received: by mail-qt1-f173.google.com with SMTP id w17so33761150qto.10 for ; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 23:45:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVTZ6ZPzBGjo/e4g46aYnRxyNxhcI1tFlPvBW5+ZeFXyOXMBD1X TT3HzvxtzYlK520cSuTESAWpwfrrsO1YDoxAPo4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx2LHu+gigoLjCe1TFIxceEYtXhwv3T98gvZN/PhGmeRcyPNKLgyv1/rXFnrFc2JGeX7N6op7+jch2+quF98aM= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:21f2:: with SMTP id 47mr102663107qtz.38.1564901138545; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 23:45:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9AD3C4BB-7965-4776-84C4-6B5BFDCAA262@tzi.org> <3E80442D-9EBF-4973-89E1-7B4A69F42754@tzi.org> <885BB026-DECB-48F3-8C17-F32E94C464D8@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <885BB026-DECB-48F3-8C17-F32E94C464D8@tzi.org> From: Klaus Hartke Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 08:45:02 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: core Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1564901143; 2a718ac6; X-HE-SMSGID: 1huAGx-0001t8-RN Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_WG_Last_Call_of_draft-ietf-core-se?= =?utf-8?q?nml-etch-03=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 06:45:45 -0000 draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-04 addresses all of my WGLC comments in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/iCF7TQKhsQGJp7h2Kgr6qtIza60 Klaus On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 21:19, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > After having had some more feedback and interaction, there is now a -04: > > Name: draft-ietf-core-senml-etch > Revision: 04 > Title: FETCH & PATCH with Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML) > Document date: 2019-07-08 > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-senml-et= ch/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-04 > Diff: https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-sen= ml-etch-04 > > I believe this addresses the WGLC comments. Unless there are additional = substantive comments, the chairs will request publication right after Wedne= sday=E2=80=99s CoRE virtual interim meeting. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Aug 4 00:33:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F3FF120074 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:33:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSMlF4lDDmE4 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8597::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75B17120046 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-f170.google.com ([209.85.222.170]); authenticated by wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1huB14-0005Fr-OC; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 09:33:18 +0200 Received: by mail-qk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id 201so57915766qkm.9 for ; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 00:33:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVYMlyb9wUDy7Zir4qb025qWYPP6iEQQ9Gqu3tecstlkCXubziK miOuONHrbdUkLMzSf4fZnyK9sBBv1v1fFCOQcjU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzT79NhvQ50BI7yfTlJN39dFhleJtmsjbEKKtzup5GW1dN4qE3mX9sTDHku/wjjouBNw5/X9AzNC+FgJuqM0vY= X-Received: by 2002:a37:274a:: with SMTP id n71mr89965181qkn.448.1564903997404; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3884679F-4236-42D5-A643-0957D1B6F3C9@arm.com> In-Reply-To: <3884679F-4236-42D5-A643-0957D1B6F3C9@arm.com> From: Klaus Hartke Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 09:32:40 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Thomas Fossati Cc: "core@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1564904001; 6b7f0df3; X-HE-SMSGID: 1huB14-0005Fr-OC Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Review of draft-ietf-core-stateless-01 (editorial bits) X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 07:33:24 -0000 Thomas Fossati wrote: > Section 1.1 defines the shorthand Client and Server. In the remainder > of the memo these are not used and the long version "server or > intermediary in the server role" and "client or intermediary in the > client role" are used instead. Either use the shorthand or drop them. Removed in -02. > Section 1.1 > [...] such as state for generating tokens and congestion control > > s/generating tokens/request retransmission/ ? Token generation is at the request/response sub-layer; retransmissions are at the messaging sub-layer. I've made the following change in -02: -(such as state for generating tokens and congestion control) +(such as for token generation, message retransmission, and congestion control) Thanks! Klaus From nobody Sun Aug 4 07:53:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF7A120045 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 07:53:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DxnaLrlcLf9M for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 07:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8597::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C735612003F for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 07:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-f172.google.com ([209.85.160.172]); authenticated by wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1huHsz-00064h-7r; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 16:53:25 +0200 Received: by mail-qt1-f172.google.com with SMTP id h21so78579632qtn.13 for ; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 07:53:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUMK3FcbZg2fRmej4kP++j/ooa8HXK2nHE6MyRm+y93fyrlFyxd cS6yzKyEdpAAsIFoM6sEyxsg/sSvY6T9H2xF+HU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzMVjsjrRu/AOJbfkt8AejU11svL3Vr34haz3CnBuSvFxG+ugG9lydUW4W1JRS1rZJ7Kxy+DktSL4cQ9Iu7MYY= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2f66:: with SMTP id k35mr102779284qta.174.1564930403917; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 07:53:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Klaus Hartke Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 16:52:47 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: core Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1564930408; 557f3056; X-HE-SMSGID: 1huHsz-00064h-7r Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_WGLC_of_draft-ietf-core-stateless-?= =?utf-8?q?01?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 14:53:32 -0000 Carsten Bormann wrote: > # Major > > Discovery is currently focused on whether the server supports extended to= ken lengths at all. Given that the maximum extended token is rather large = for a constrained environment, the client may be interested to find out how= large tokens can be for this server. With CSM, this would be trivial (cha= nge empty option value to an uint value). With trial-and-error, this leave= s the client with binary search (probably along the lines of the token size= s it actually can make use of). As discussed in the CoRE virtual interim, it's probably safe to assume that a client in a constrained environment is already choosing the most compact token possible for the task. So there's probably not much it could do when it learns that the server supports extended token lengths but not of that length (other than, e.g., as a stateless client going back to making stateful requests). Changing the CSM from empty to uint might still be worth doing, though. Done in -02. > # Minor > > Section 3.3 suddenly starts to talk about authentication tags and freshne= ss indicators; this might require additional explanation (in particular sin= ce there are BCP 14 keywords in these paragraphs). Section 4.2.1 has some = implementation guidelines that could possibly be expanded to cover this. I'll move the requirements from section 4.2 to section 3 in -02 to provide better context. Thanks! Klaus From nobody Wed Aug 7 04:31:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE511206CE for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:31:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iyGG74N1RwQ7 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9869A120167 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 463Tpb4K10zyTH; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:31:03 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:31:03 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 586870261.4063621-adbd6bebf3a22fa6d078e0ae7f085a65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6FBA0723-5FBC-415B-A46C-6D925E1F5E1B@tzi.org> References: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [core] Cancel today? Webex meeting info: CoRE Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 11:31:08 -0000 Hi, one of our regular CoRE Virtual Interim meetings is scheduled for today, = in 3.5 hours at 1500Z. Because everybody seems to be on vacation, I=E2=80=99m having a hard = time assembling an agenda. Is there anything we should and can discuss today? =20 Please speak up before 1300Z, or I=E2=80=99ll send a cancellation = notice. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten = =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2= =80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80= =94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94= =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 (Here is what I would have normally sent:) The meeting details for the CoRE Virtual Interim that starts in 3.5 = hours at 1500Z haven=E2=80=99t changed from last time; see below for = reference. The provisional agenda we are proposing for this first meeting after = Montreal=E2=80=99s f2f is quite empty: - (AOB) Etherpad for minutes: = https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-20190807-core If you have other items that should be discussed today, please send a = message to core-chairs@ietf.org so we can update the agenda. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten Virtual Interim Hosted by CORE Working Group Wednesday, 07 Aug, 2019 15:00 | 1 hour 30 minutes | (UTC+00:00) = Monrovia, Reykjavik Occurs every 2 week(s) on Wednesday effective 5/29/2019 until 11/13/2019 = from 3:00 PM to 4:30 PM, (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik Meeting number: 648 636 609 Password: constrained https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm4f01e31ccd50d241bcf796aed4bf46d4= Join by phone 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 648 636 609 From nobody Wed Aug 7 07:07:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23705120052 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:07:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wYrqg5a7LMwP for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75A77120041 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 463YGZ6zrkzyXP; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:07:02 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <6FBA0723-5FBC-415B-A46C-6D925E1F5E1B@tzi.org> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:07:02 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 586879620.745725-e0cc8dcebda676dc4fa6b4595c9ca496 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <97719F4D-F245-4AC9-89B8-89A45B65B5B7@tzi.org> References: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> <6FBA0723-5FBC-415B-A46C-6D925E1F5E1B@tzi.org> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Cancel today! Webex meeting info: CoRE Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:07:06 -0000 On Aug 7, 2019, at 13:31, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Is there anything we should and can discuss today? =20 We could discuss some document status, but we can also do that on the = list. > Please speak up before 1300Z, or I=E2=80=99ll send a cancellation = notice. Here is the cancellation notice: No CoRE Virtual Interim today. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 7 07:49:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C081202EC for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:49:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SQJ1ukdXnOoW for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjmda10.webex.com (sjmda10.webex.com [64.68.124.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3CDB1202EF for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rva2rmd101.webex.com (sjc02-wxpd-lb03-v140.webex.com [10.252.16.111]) by sjmda10.webex.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7FA2301FB0F for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:49:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rva2rmd101.webex.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rva2rmd101.webex.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D81C067F for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:49:38 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:49:38 +0000 (GMT) From: CORE Working Group Reply-To: core-chairs@ietf.org To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <285707609.2435581565189378489.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_487106_161430746.1565189378489" X-Priority: 3 Importance: normal X-WBX-INFO: X-WBX-SID=456680, X-WBX-CID=133239061974363618, X-WBX-TID=2q2rti8ig9ozplemrbtt14emyi115hexr4i3b25v6yew0nx7o2a9wb3m, X-WBX-RID=6e12ddce255643bab93537f22ca4f0e3, X-WBX-SVC:Web Components, X-WBX-TT:Meeting Cancelled, Date:Wed Aug 07 14:49:38 GMT 2019 reminder-3.34.2-46 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Canceled Webex meeting: Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:49:42 -0000 ------=_Part_487106_161430746.1565189378489 Content-Type: multipart/Alternative; 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Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:50:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K2T6azTfIUtR; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF80E1200DF; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (192.168.1.155) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 09:51:20 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: CC: Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 09:51:19 -0700 Message-ID: <000201d54d40$57609210$0621b630$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdVNO9q1qUVd3OyVTJWBKps0i3fXOA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [192.168.1.155] Archived-At: Subject: [core] Ordering question for draft-hartke-t2trg-coral X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 21:50:11 -0000 Klaus, In the process of working on this, I am trying to determine if there is a real ordering to the items in a document or not. The only reason that I can see for having one is the possibility directives change the current context. If one stores all of this as absolute paths (or relative to a known point), one could synthesis the base directive on the fly when doing serialization and thus the order of links and forms would not be significant. Can you confirm this? Jim From nobody Thu Aug 8 03:22:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E6812011C; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 03:22:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z61M6MJZSMdl; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 03:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8597::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F1A612011B; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 03:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-f182.google.com ([209.85.160.182]); authenticated by wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1hvfYz-0004Vu-V5; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 12:22:30 +0200 Received: by mail-qt1-f182.google.com with SMTP id w17so10920202qto.10; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 03:22:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVwkDQktW5AMcjyZk74dr8TpvkpiXG/24E30ajZL4BpNWDzlv+m 7ObXmkmGlun/eOALs2LlTo4uoZyeSSZuqrrtGck= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwvT/aVVxNX+HntyBHutXWoMRVRa0MuUXqmpU5P6U9yW2ApM2NwNkfMx8+R8bdTEsCg7ruiHr3kNBjxHKjbsXs= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:984a:: with SMTP id e10mr12438133qvd.57.1565259748928; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 03:22:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000201d54d40$57609210$0621b630$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: <000201d54d40$57609210$0621b630$@augustcellars.com> From: Klaus Hartke Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:21:52 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Jim Schaad Cc: draft-hartke-t2trg-coral@ietf.org, "core@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1565259754; 1a9a2961; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hvfYz-0004Vu-V5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Ordering question for draft-hartke-t2trg-coral X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 10:22:37 -0000 Hi Jim, > In the process of working on this, I am trying to determine if there is a > real ordering to the items in a document or not. The only reason that I can > see for having one is the possibility directives change the current context. > If one stores all of this as absolute paths (or relative to a known point), > one could synthesis the base directive on the fly when doing serialization > and thus the order of links and forms would not be significant. in the serializations, elements clearly have an order on the wire, and the meaning of each elements depends on the current processor state ("current context") that changes based on the directives processed so far: #base quux #base quux is not equivalent to #base quux #base quux In the data model, the question is valid whether a link `quux ` followed by a link `quux ` is semantically equivalent to the link `quux ` followed by the link `quux `: Is #base quux #base quux equivalent to #base quux #base quux ? This question is currently left open in draft-hartke-t2trg-coral-09. I'd say the answer mostly depends on the semantics of the link relation types. E.g.,: * a link to the mother of a person followed by a link to their father is probably equivalent to a link to their father followed by a link to their mother; * a link to a resource with sz 100 followed by a link to a resource with sz 50 is probably not equivalent to a link with sz 50 followed a link with size 100 if the client requests the links be sorted by sz; * a link to a resource with ct Link-Format followed by a link to a resource with ct CoRAL is probably not equivalent to a link with ct CoRAL followed by a link with ct Link-Format if the server wants to express that the CoRAL alternative should be preferred. Klaus From nobody Thu Aug 8 13:35:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5D61200A3; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:35:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oRBL9ggtx2re; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6966120198; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:34:55 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Klaus Hartke' CC: , References: <000201d54d40$57609210$0621b630$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:34:53 -0700 Message-ID: <00e701d54e28$bd7557a0$386006e0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQOAnuT8wet3nmU3+ngvZ7va+KB/6QJo9Jf6o4fGDhA= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Ordering question for draft-hartke-t2trg-coral X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 20:35:20 -0000 Klaus, Some responses in line. This was the problem I was thinking about as a = dictionary in my pubsub node would be an easier way to access the = values. But if order is important then that will not work. jim -----Original Message----- From: Klaus Hartke =20 Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2019 3:22 AM To: Jim Schaad Cc: draft-hartke-t2trg-coral@ietf.org; core@ietf.org WG Subject: Re: [core] Ordering question for draft-hartke-t2trg-coral Hi Jim, > In the process of working on this, I am trying to determine if there=20 > is a real ordering to the items in a document or not. The only reason = > that I can see for having one is the possibility directives change the = current context. > If one stores all of this as absolute paths (or relative to a known=20 > point), one could synthesis the base directive on the fly when doing=20 > serialization and thus the order of links and forms would not be = significant. in the serializations, elements clearly have an order on the wire, and = the meaning of each elements depends on the current processor state = ("current context") that changes based on the directives processed so far: #base quux #base quux is not equivalent to #base quux #base quux [JLS] In terms of the base directive, this does not bother me because I = would do the normalization as part of the parsing process. I am worried = that somebody may come up with a new directive for which this would not = be the case. New directives can also cause problems in the future = because how do I deserialize an object when I find a directive I don't = understand. In the data model, the question is valid whether a link `quux = ` followed by a link `quux ` = is semantically equivalent to the link `quux ` = followed by the link `quux `: Is #base quux #base quux equivalent to #base quux #base quux ? This question is currently left open in draft-hartke-t2trg-coral-09. I'd say the answer mostly depends on the semantics of the link relation = types. E.g.,: * a link to the mother of a person followed by a link to their father is = probably equivalent to a link to their father followed by a link to = their mother; [JLS] Right, these can be considered to be completely independent items. * a link to a resource with sz 100 followed by a link to a resource with = sz 50 is probably not equivalent to a link with sz 50 followed a link = with size 100 if the client requests the links be sorted by sz; [JLS] But in this case, you are talking about having the items sorted at = the time it is serialized. So in this case you are actually asking for = the order to be changed from the original one to a new order. If this = causes other unintentional order changes that would cause a problem. * a link to a resource with ct Link-Format followed by a link to a = resource with ct CoRAL is probably not equivalent to a link with ct = CoRAL followed by a link with ct Link-Format if the server wants to = express that the CoRAL alternative should be preferred. [JLS] This one kind a begs the question should a multivalued link be = setup as an array of values rather than something that the client could = accidently change the of order if it does not expect to have multiple = values. In that case it would presumable get the last value which would = be wrong. I realize that having an array of values gives a problem = because that is also what a ciri looks like and there would need to be a = way to distinguish them. Klaus From nobody Mon Aug 12 23:09:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B61812008B for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2019 23:09:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oyJPtkqZBL_Z for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2019 23:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1C5112008A for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2019 23:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4672P25Lh7z10sS; Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:09:42 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:09:29 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 587369367.89489-f9aaf8a80cf0b90b71ca1a2ca812f19a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <36F92436-9CD7-4C20-8662-098243ADB32E@tzi.org> References: To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_CoRE_Working_Group_Adoption_call_f?= =?utf-8?q?or_draft-hartke-t2trg-coral-09_and_draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri-03?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 06:09:46 -0000 On Jul 16, 2019, at 21:11, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > This is a formal call for adoption of draft-hartke-t2trg-coral-09 and = draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri-03 as WG documents of the CoRE WG. =E2=80=A6 and the result was a resounding yes. Klaus, please re-submit = as draft-ietf-core-coral and draft-ietf-core-cori (*). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Aug 16 13:58:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFC312007C for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2019 13:58:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oynjgRAQ77w5 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2019 13:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13DE8120018 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2019 13:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 469Fz525K9zyS3; Fri, 16 Aug 2019 22:58:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 587681903.608137-ef8af91718d4e528d7f72a88c7bb3ad7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 22:58:24 +0200 Message-Id: <39051586-7FD9-434B-8E66-2F5875297106@tzi.org> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [core] CoRE @ IETF105: Summary and Minutes X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 20:58:29 -0000 The chairs have uploaded draft minutes for the two CoRE meetings at = IETF105: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-core As usual, this starts with a summary of what happened (without all the = technical details), followed by more detailed minutes as collected in = Etherpad. Please send fixes and updates to core-chairs@ietf.org or to the mailing = list, preferably within the next 7 days or whenever you return from your = vacation this month. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Aug 17 01:46:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED342120105; Sat, 17 Aug 2019 01:46:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <156603157787.11068.11685276736078336077@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 01:46:17 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 08:46:18 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : FETCH & PATCH with Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML) Authors : Ari Keranen Mojan Mohajer Filename : draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2019-08-17 Abstract: The Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML) media type and data model can be used to send collections of resources, such as batches of sensor data or configuration parameters. The CoAP iPATCH, PATCH, and FETCH methods enable accessing and updating parts of a resource or multiple resources with one request. This document defines new media types for the CoAP iPATCH, PATCH, and FETCH methods for resources represented with the SenML data model. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-senml-etch/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sat Aug 17 01:56:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D234120019 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2019 01:56:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B6Dt-KNVAyWs for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2019 01:56:18 -0700 (PDT) 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/iEsVpCTszhFd0ycaPQAPX9qcIHZZC5JuWub+vYL3RpSC4niYba2T8h7Y1eZpcwkRonlI8TTCZh8 B1wwrkJMAxSeRBX3U2VFZs/TQOwbfu/vPwhUuGftjMr7KLixv6aFvMYW2pOqq0L+CBAvQyMI2p/4 FhDBB3M7YchARhIBssbsgDmgb9LX06LmYKyuwiq1/nLVIwCH9rWaHfkt0haovbngbe6WAAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-9867FF46-5CE3-4F91-A12C-BB4511A7AC84-- From nobody Mon Aug 19 07:00:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B011200F3; Mon, 19 Aug 2019 07:00:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: CC: draft-ietf-core-senml-etch@ietf.org, core-chairs@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann , core@ietf.org, alexey.melnikov@isode.com, cabo@tzi.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <156622320612.20013.4011024461414303053.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 07:00:06 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Last Call: (FETCH & PATCH with Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML)) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 14:00:13 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Constrained RESTful Environments WG (core) to consider the following document: - 'FETCH & PATCH with Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML)' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2019-09-02. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract The Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML) media type and data model can be used to send collections of resources, such as batches of sensor data or configuration parameters. The CoAP iPATCH, PATCH, and FETCH methods enable accessing and updating parts of a resource or multiple resources with one request. This document defines new media types for the CoAP iPATCH, PATCH, and FETCH methods for resources represented with the SenML data model. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-senml-etch/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-senml-etch/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Mon Aug 19 21:01:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 505A41202A0; Mon, 19 Aug 2019 21:01:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Carlos Pignataro via Datatracker To: Cc: ietf@ietf.org, core@ietf.org, draft-ietf-core-senml-etch.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Carlos Pignataro Message-ID: <156627369024.5149.2705313515504146318@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 21:01:30 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 04:01:31 -0000 Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro Review result: Ready Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro Review result: Ready I have reviewed draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05 as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included in AD reviews during the IESG review. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. This document is ready from an Ops Directorate viewpoint. From nobody Tue Aug 20 01:48:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878B912091F for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 01:48:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nZ6qbGGdQpju for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 01:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prometheus.amsuess.com (prometheus.amsuess.com [5.9.147.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E72C0120024 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 01:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (095129206250.cust.akis.net [95.129.206.250]) by prometheus.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06B6D40247 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 10:48:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (unknown [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:a800:ff:fede:b1bf]) by poseidon-mailhub.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741D926 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 10:48:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hephaistos.amsuess.com (unknown [IPv6:2a02:b18:c13b:8010:b533:775a:25ba:8cbd]) by poseidon-mailbox.amsuess.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 338017A for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 10:48:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (nullmailer pid 29066 invoked by uid 1000); Tue, 20 Aug 2019 08:47:55 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 10:47:55 +0200 From: Christian =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ams=FCss?= To: Core WG mailing list Message-ID: <20190820084750.GA25071@hephaistos.amsuess.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KsGdsel6WgEHnImy" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: [core] fyi: Non-traditional responses deployed in shelly.cloud X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 08:48:42 -0000 --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi CoRE, via a StackOverflow question[1] I found that there are home automation deployments that use something very similar to non-traditional responses: They send unsolicited representations with NON and 0.30 codes and Uri-Path options[2]. While the precise method they picked may be questionable (I really wouldn't want a dedicated code for that), this could be valuable input and implementation experience on the whole topic of nontraditional responses. Best regards Christian [1]: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/57558648/how-to-handle-custom-coap= -options-non-standard [2]: https://shelly-api-docs.shelly.cloud/images/CoIoT%20for%20Shelly%20dev= ices%20(rev%201.0)%20.pdf --=20 The detailed semantics of CoAP methods are "almost, but not entirely unlike" [HHGTTG] those of HTTP methods. [HHGTTG]: Adams, D., "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", October 1979. -- Shelby, et al., Internet-Draft Constrained Application Protocol (CoAP) --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEECM1tElX6OodcH7CWOY0REtOkveEFAl1bs7IACgkQOY0REtOk veHGzBAAiPrNK9i2ebgMPYsDTz+5yULhs8KbaK55iqYVQsoWtADOBdxrnRBI/wqP wS7F4yeXMuZkWuCCZBP4Vf0/Oc4wVk+C+zpVqhh4C/7y5WaDsW9t2XlAeqlwU9he QJlLyv3N+Vq9ZT+9HpbJrqmc7WRg1sCtNUHDlHAFQXhlJ/ggC0TAeZaLKqKWso6X dkJxSzT2XbBRMYEiUx1j4jhqR3VYfS5f5lGROC5/JG4JaQMpfF08+bRhzjedbo+e n8iJl75JVGgFpkA/zY/B9X7ExKS1w9Ud/g9Crk6YpuywUTxdGWyp/eeWyEHa+aFY Xu0uYbomm24K+b1HUgRMCcW5r+TywfBbo9Fye9nmGqg87qLAabYyZMK94EJrBZQQ R+J/q4lJocOyWkoeM5A5c5SvsWrNDaBCtmJQeuyL/99Vuquo2p/AWpXSVVzTV4Rp S8vWbGOEr7cKzlggA5g0kS8RWfekGYMgwFgQ0DyZ/ipWTaCH+vjPC27Qki+SfVTE EJt6REE5ggAkbOBKgBPGRQjACWzbP2IQ9CedvARpIXznrHdGypNe6i3RJJWLEvoZ gC1in7wRALPp7kloFAezZ1tVTBCZUZuiw4qQq947aI946QYh7BES5sCxMrejOsbF ysY9MJCPVWEgvs2BAhy4LXeJqVP6p4C+hw+JX2Dl3wyFY+rH1wM= =CZXk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy-- From nobody Tue Aug 20 14:24:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 311941200B8 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:23:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ygGPjUJP_-2 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B90161200A3 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46CkLf1bVMzySK; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 23:23:54 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 23:23:53 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588029031.584983-e417f42f7ffedfb1f2ddba25dd470638 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1C99ADC1-D3A3-4064-95D6-2432B007BB81@tzi.org> References: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [core] Cancel today? Webex meeting info: CoRE Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 21:23:58 -0000 The meeting details for the CoRE Virtual Interim that starts on = Wednesday at 1500Z haven=E2=80=99t changed from last time; see below for = reference. While we are still in slow vacation time at least in parts = of Europe (particularly, France), we probably do want to use = tomorrow=E2=80=99s slot for a sync-up. We certainly want to talk briefly about the IESG processing of = multipart-ct, senml-etch, and, if there is any news, resource-directory. Pubsub came up on the mailing list; if we can make good use of online = time, we could do so tomorrow. I don=E2=80=99t know if there is news on SenML issues (base name; = units). Maybe we also have time to look at Christian=E2=80=99s calls-to-action = from the f2f meeting. Please send any other agenda items that you would like to see towards = the chairs (core-chairs@ietf.org). Please also claim these slots if you = can prepare something (slides, discussion points, =E2=80=A6). Etherpad for minutes: = https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-20190821-core Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten Virtual Interim Hosted by CORE Working Group Wednesday, 21 Aug, 2019 15:00 | 1 hour 30 minutes | (UTC+00:00) = Monrovia, Reykjavik Occurs every 2 week(s) on Wednesday effective 5/29/2019 until 11/13/2019 = from 3:00 PM to 4:30 PM, (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik Meeting number: 648 636 609 Password: constrained https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm4f01e31ccd50d241bcf796aed4bf46d4= Join by phone 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 648 636 609 From nobody Tue Aug 20 14:36:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7728120180 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:36:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UyON7BN6HSDO for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E98B12013C for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46Ckcw6YDnzyNj; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 23:36:16 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <1C99ADC1-D3A3-4064-95D6-2432B007BB81@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 23:36:16 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588029774.554092-1a618d47c8bc28d93008d37c585669d2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <92051EC5-88C0-4F16-A5AF-BA9029CA1B07@tzi.org> References: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> <1C99ADC1-D3A3-4064-95D6-2432B007BB81@tzi.org> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Cancel today? Webex meeting info: CoRE Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 21:36:20 -0000 Aargh, I didn=E2=80=99t edit the Subject header field. Rumors of = cancellation are greatly exaggerated. Sorry about that=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 21 00:54:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340C412086B for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 00:54:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.82 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.82 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YXEVJOAoEDJ8 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 00:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED3A91200B3 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 00:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C7422110 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 03:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 21 Aug 2019 03:54:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=gzVPIK/gxt7evVnSEC0R87yu48YMbl3q7VMv/gcMx pY=; b=D7O6M5pJgwOA3lr0kGpowLEAvWZEeMob4ypsbD2LUCRD0AKG46RFhu2Bk KvYOyAK1XGv93F38ZrORsys0kgBrRZxpWi/6ptZQTgG+FMDeQ/P+m13nHduKyr2y DgPMJ55PMdvB6lF+ECyCwVPuqyr5Cwrl0UX9oe6FAi8c9FJxcr8GhXW6E2owldNR VKKDPnTtr+lwUrD2BbnqDjtoXLvpsOiqD2ZKpZGRWF16CvE4AGwe4fmVSV9mNYFU 9o+b/okQYDidPblYXJp+cbDLupaYFnUdOYSFGlPl3S7JFfbWX04KNFl/aYcgD0oZ 3Ol8zDpnJfp1FQbkPRB4jlPIYWOEw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrudegvddguddvkecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtugfgjggfse htkeertddtredunecuhfhrohhmpeflrghimhgvucflihhmrohnvgiiuceojhgrihhmvges ihhkihdrfhhiqeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppeekledrudeiie drgeelrddvgeefnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehjrghimhgvsehikhhirdhf ihenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from EMB-918HFH01 (89-166-49-243.co.dnainternet.fi [89.166.49.243]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 288E080059 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 03:54:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 10:54:23 +0300 From: =?utf-8?Q?Jaime=20Jim=C3=A9nez?= To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190821075422.vfxee2ecrqjtaz7y@EMB-918HFH01> References: <20190710155939.tay2tpgdqjdrko3c@EMB-918HFH01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20190710155939.tay2tpgdqjdrko3c@EMB-918HFH01> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] WGA call for draft-keranen-core-senml-data-ct-02 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:54:29 -0000 Dear CoRE WG, As the call is now quite past its deadline and there has been sufficient discussion and positive confirmation for adoption, we will formally close the call and adopt draft-keranen-core-senml-data-ct-02. The authors should now resubmit a WG document as draft-ietf-core-senml-data. Thank you! -- Jaime Jiménez On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 06:59:39PM +0300, Jaime Jiménez wrote: > Dear CoRE WG, > > We would like to start the call for adoption on draft-keranen-core-senml-data-ct-02. > The draft is short (4 pages),it defines a new field to indicate the content format of the data. > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keranen-core-senml-data-ct-02 > > We are having the call for adoption on the mailing list and the draft will be discussed during IETF 105. > The call for adoption ends in one week (on July 10th). > > BR, > -- Jaime Jiménez > > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core From nobody Wed Aug 21 01:22:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4781208A4 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 01:22:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.821 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.821 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id djAdIdAbRItx for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 01:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ADDF120891 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 01:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AD920C86 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 04:22:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 21 Aug 2019 04:22:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=2ti0my BMu003O75MX9vJSml1hmXXbTKtbEzoTFk3kPA=; b=WXi3z8T1GfmulUnem8CFvO IGLqPmQQN2qb0X+egmSuG49Y3SDWAb6ZHllpuFiBfHizoncDbIY52DhmgeMe2DjK F26hE/c6OaFudJ84jp6XGTrbwFPL64sUUzOBgN3N7lwjhzdZGsO4HmuBPyHROo1v POFSKOBCAQlHUOhC3WAAuTICYHMJmtIKm/E0qpiq+GiSst6ErnrvMo0yDns52WuS Ybv3dWZ1zXdMJIApl86tJ0gOIUt1UF9vSJprNC7mtY9A2YaQfOP7OVE1RSyjHFN0 Q1Fs5JD6BW6JQFFakxust1AaN4tyT4uxtrsiqaViI7DMT4xU7wZ96dAtDQ98GXfA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrudegfedgtdegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkgggtugfgfgesthekre dttderudenucfhrhhomheplfgrihhmvgculfhimhornhgviicuoehjrghimhgvsehikhhi rdhfiheqnecukfhppeekledrudeiiedrgeelrddvgeefnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehjrghimhgvsehikhhirdhfihenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from EMB-918HFH01 (89-166-49-243.co.dnainternet.fi [89.166.49.243]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D20C48005C for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 04:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:22:34 +0300 From: =?utf-8?Q?Jaime=20Jim=C3=A9nez?= To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190821082234.5ostmp5mwdzn6uk7@EMB-918HFH01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_CoRE_Working_Group_Adoption_call_f?= =?utf-8?q?or_draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 08:22:39 -0000 Dear Core WG, We would like to start the call for adoption on draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03. >From the minutes I see there was interest in the room during IETF 105. The draft registers some additional basic unit types for SenML (e.g. Byte, etc). It also proposes a secondary registry of derived units (e.g. milisecond, minute, etc) with different scales and offset that better adjust to their "common uses". At a general level the need for this secondary registry has been discussed in other SDOs and they too found it would be useful to have. In order to encourage interoperability the main unit registry would be more restricted. BR, -- Jaime Jiménez From nobody Wed Aug 21 01:26:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A6E12083E for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 01:26:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.82 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.82 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ykTZPxxuueXF for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 01:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B7FF12081F for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 01:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB2821F18 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 04:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 21 Aug 2019 04:25:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=1ATnE2RFUljMMAZObctlN99wEyv+o7kEBsspy0tzM yE=; b=bbEDcMSs0Q/8jsn15IS+KNc45Ttt4NKx44uaDeI6jDHkUgJOGegtwtyHC qz/Q3PJeuHDhGp/4VIIVfhF0JKpIBrur2sUAq2JKS86fNROf+dac5E9gFBHt335R p7dTBUz/XXZUfJTFYro/TjdeUSA6hdt5omks/D71NDCuN5SKBgWwE/JXI1y/ZyRa zcSzqMBNJksCu2Q4BfTK7WDAu0G2W45Fyul2ZEVmhbtYnThvYHL45T5d6qWIaQXc iPxmNgT9fhta7xFp2iKRt+dhomFFzf6joYXPJJoB3jBzTcV7eo3cWmyZTjY78XUB abA4XwCUVLZCpYqxOdluMXkkFNarg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrudegfedgtdegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggugfgjfgesth ekredttderudenucfhrhhomheplfgrihhmvgculfhimhornhgviicuoehjrghimhgvsehi khhirdhfiheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepkeelrdduieeird egledrvdegfeenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhgrihhmvgesihhkihdrfhhi necuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from EMB-918HFH01 (89-166-49-243.co.dnainternet.fi [89.166.49.243]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8318280059 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 04:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:25:55 +0300 From: =?utf-8?Q?Jaime=20Jim=C3=A9nez?= To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190821082555.whoele3gzsm4ymsg@EMB-918HFH01> References: <20190821082234.5ostmp5mwdzn6uk7@EMB-918HFH01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20190821082234.5ostmp5mwdzn6uk7@EMB-918HFH01> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_CoRE_Working_Group_Adoption_call_f?= =?utf-8?q?or_draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 08:26:00 -0000 Forgot to add that the call will last a couple of weeks and will end the 4th of September. On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 11:22:34AM +0300, Jaime Jiménez wrote: > Dear Core WG, > > We would like to start the call for adoption on > draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03. > >From the minutes I see there was interest in the room during IETF 105. > > The draft registers some additional basic unit types for SenML (e.g. > Byte, etc). It also proposes a secondary registry of derived units > (e.g. milisecond, minute, etc) with different scales and > offset that better adjust to their "common uses". > > At a general level the need for this secondary registry has been > discussed in other SDOs and they too found it would be useful to have. > In order to encourage interoperability the main unit registry would be > more restricted. > > BR, > -- Jaime Jiménez > > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core From nobody Wed Aug 21 01:33:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27023120835 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 01:33:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, 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-0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2r7E4nisrN21 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A983120052 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46D8q92FDpz100G; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:16:37 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:16:36 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588089794.966374-a7e5b5d88ec44c6483ee0c723c90f9a0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <63A7A476-BE7E-4112-A69D-CF87B39E3F22@tzi.org> References: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [core] With agenda: Webex meeting info: CoRE Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:16:41 -0000 The meeting details for the CoRE Virtual Interim that starts on = Wednesday at 1500Z haven=E2=80=99t changed from last time; see below for = reference. Please try to be loosely there at 1450Z; recently we have = had increased audio connectivity issues and we probably need 10 minutes = to assess/debug any issues. Agenda: 1450Z..1500Z: (Pre-meeting: Can you hear me now, 2019 edition) 1500Z..1510Z: Agenda bashing Document status (here: multipart-ct, senml-etch) Other SDOs (here: senml-more-units) 1510Z..1540Z: (Jim) Pubsub: Jim=E2=80=99s questions, i.e.: =E2=80=94 significance of order of elements (~ CoRAL/JSON discussion) =E2=80=94 basic vocabulary =E2=80=94 hierarchy =E2=80=94 create on publish =E2=80=94 is that dead now? =E2=80=94 back path from data item to topic item? =E2=80=94 initial publication =E2=80=94 how? (e.g., multipart) 1540Z..1630Z: (Klaus) CoRAL, specifically CoRAL-JSON=20 Please see https://github.com/core-wg/coral/issues/17 1630Z..1630Z: AOB Etherpad for minutes: = https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-20190821-core Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten Virtual Interim Hosted by CORE Working Group Wednesday, 21 Aug, 2019 15:00 | 1 hour 30 minutes | (UTC+00:00) = Monrovia, Reykjavik Occurs every 2 week(s) on Wednesday effective 5/29/2019 until 11/13/2019 = from 3:00 PM to 4:30 PM, (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik Meeting number: 648 636 609 Password: constrained https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm4f01e31ccd50d241bcf796aed4bf46d4= Join by phone 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 648 636 609 From nobody Wed Aug 21 07:28:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CE012025D for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:28:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ODMEB1-OR7um for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 969A21208A0 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46D94v72PmzyZr; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:28:31 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20190821082555.whoele3gzsm4ymsg@EMB-918HFH01> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:28:31 +0200 Cc: core@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588090509.522693-2167d45d91063e233ea47e631bbadb6f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7C002906-70DE-4106-A06E-D2E9BA0894E6@tzi.org> References: <20190821082234.5ostmp5mwdzn6uk7@EMB-918HFH01> <20190821082555.whoele3gzsm4ymsg@EMB-918HFH01> To: =?utf-8?Q?Jaime_Jim=C3=A9nez?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_CoRE_Working_Group_Adoption_call_f?= =?utf-8?q?or_draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:28:36 -0000 Hi Jaime, I=E2=80=99m going on vacation on Sep 4, so sticking with the usual = 1-week WGA call (instead of two weeks, despite the holiday period) might = allow us to go forward faster. To the WGA call itself: =20 I=E2=80=99m also in favor of moving this to a WG document and then = completing the work in an expedient way. One question that does come up on the hallway is how IETF suddenly = became the world authority on measurement units. The answer is that = this is not the intention. Units are made by other entities (e.g., ISO = and IEC in ISO/IEC 80000, IEEE in IEEE 1459, etc.). The idea of the = SenML units registry is to have an agreed ASCII name for a unit that is = relevant to IoT and can be used in SenML and other interoperability = specifications. It turns out that doing this once in a central place is = beneficial to semantic interoperability in the IoT. In the SenML work, = we found that other attempts at defining such registries are very useful = as input (e.g., UCUM), but do not directly fulfill the specific = requirements that SenML and other interoperability standards have. = Since, it also has turned out that SenML and other standards in this = space have different requirements on the use of legacy unit identifiers, = while still able to share a namespace in an unambiguous way. Hence the = update that is now being proposed. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Aug 21, 2019, at 10:25, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez wrote: >=20 >=20 > Forgot to add that the call will last a couple of weeks and will end = the=20 > 4th of September. >=20 > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 11:22:34AM +0300, Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez wrote: >> Dear Core WG, >>=20 >> We would like to start the call for adoption on >> draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03. >>> =46rom the minutes I see there was interest in the room during IETF = 105. >>=20 >> The draft registers some additional basic unit types for SenML (e.g. >> Byte, etc). It also proposes a secondary registry of derived units=20 >> (e.g. milisecond, minute, etc) with different scales and >> offset that better adjust to their "common uses". >>=20 >> At a general level the need for this secondary registry has been >> discussed in other SDOs and they too found it would be useful to = have. >> In order to encourage interoperability the main unit registry would = be >> more restricted. >>=20 >> BR, >> -- Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> core mailing list >> core@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core >=20 > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 21 09:59:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579FC120BE8 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rFajd1Hkq5CH for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5ED61201DC for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46DDQy0jqlz10g1; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:59:22 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <63A7A476-BE7E-4112-A69D-CF87B39E3F22@tzi.org> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:59:21 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588099559.932337-83aa6e49b1695179005f07ee5c9d5040 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> <63A7A476-BE7E-4112-A69D-CF87B39E3F22@tzi.org> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] With agenda: Webex meeting info: CoRE Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:59:26 -0000 Minutes are at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-core-11/materials/minute= s-interim-2019-core-11-201908211500 (Slides still to be uploaded.) Among other things, we briefly talked about the next two interims = scheduled. On 2019-09-04, some people are traveling to the RIOT summit (-05..-06 in = Helsinki), others are on vacation. So it is unlikely this is a good = slot for a virtual interim meeting. On 2019-09-18, some people are still on vacation. To be decided based = on any urgent matter. Jim noted that maybe he will use one of the slots for ACE meetings (WG = virtual interim or authors/design teams). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 21 11:09:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82A3120DF9 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:09:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ysk9O7weMhSF for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38666120DE5 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46DFzb6XjPz104h; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:09:15 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:09:15 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588103753.524353-a22f5ede592066339294b81de36bf227 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <198CD7AA-08B5-443B-9DED-63BBA9F749BA@tzi.org> References: <880105127.785171559138207866.JavaMail.nobody@rva2rmd101.webex.com> <63A7A476-BE7E-4112-A69D-CF87B39E3F22@tzi.org> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] With agenda: Webex meeting info: CoRE Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:09:21 -0000 On Aug 21, 2019, at 18:59, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > (Slides still to be uploaded.) = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-core-11/materials/slides= -interim-2019-core-11-sessa-json-serialization-for-coral Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 21 12:21:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85517120BEA; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:21:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <156641530044.25781.11152722808529199181@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:21:40 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:21:41 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Multipart Content-Format for CoAP Authors : Thomas Fossati Klaus Hartke Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2019-08-21 Abstract: This memo defines application/multipart-core, an application- independent media-type that can be used to combine representations of zero or more different media types into a single message, such as a CoAP request or response body, with minimal framing overhead, each along with a CoAP Content-Format identifier. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Aug 21 12:37:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D4F9120F35; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:37:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rWZz1LWy8dwy; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C100D120F2F; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.120] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46DHx25QWpz105P; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 21:37:10 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20190504232153.GA19805@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 21:37:10 +0200 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , The IESG , draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct@ietf.org, =?utf-8?Q?Jaime_Jim=C3=A9nez?= , core-chairs@ietf.org, core@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588109028.221368-384de15fcf70e925166b98ca669ea198 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155675554069.2851.9351849772053196736.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <459433ef-5cb5-4c3e-a32e-a5d063b1ccf0@www.fastmail.com> <20190504232153.GA19805@kduck.mit.edu> To: Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:37:15 -0000 Hi Benjamin, it took us a while to better understand the concern and come up with = text. We have now submitted -04: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04 https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04.txt > On May 5, 2019, at 01:21, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 > On Thu, May 02, 2019 at 03:11:25PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Hi Alexey, >>=20 >> On May 2, 2019, at 14:40, Alexey Melnikov = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Benjamin, >>>=20 >>> On Thu, May 2, 2019, at 1:05 AM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker = wrote: >>>=20 >>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> DISCUSS: >>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>=20 >>>> It's not clear to me that we're really specifying the semantics of = a >>>> single media-type. The introduction discusses how we may want = multiple >>>> representations to appear in a sequence, potentially representing >>>> different content. >>>=20 >>> I think this is similar to multipart/mixed. >>=20 >> We were indeed trying to follow the model of multipart/mixed. >> This offers a number of embedded representations the sequence of = which may or may not be important. >>=20 >>>> Or we may have a set of related representations that >>>> conceptually are the same content (but are they literally the same >>>> resource, or related content?). >>>=20 >>> My understanding is that they are related contents. >>=20 >> There is no promise that the related items are conceptually the same = content. >> The difference between the first situation and the second one mainly = is that the sequence is not important in the second (i.e., we are using = the sequence to describe a bag). >>=20 >>>> And there is yet a third option -- one >>>> that I'm not sure I fully understand -- wherein the representation = is >>>> not important, but rather which format is chosen of the several >>>> possibilities, to the extent that extreme compression of the >>>> representation is possible, with the compression just outputting = the >>>> format indicator. >>>=20 >>> Hmm, I missed that. I think this is similar to multipart/alternative >>=20 >> That wasn=E2=80=99t the intention. >=20 > I think that analogies to multipart/mixed and/or multipart/alternative > would help the reviewer assess whether the document text succeeds at > describing the intended behavior (though it's not clear that using = such a > reference to attempt to define the behavior by reference is a useful = plan). Please have a look at what we did =E2=80=94 we made it more explicit = that the semantics are indeed refined by the request context, but that = multipart/mixed is our model here and multipart/alternative is outside = the range that this media type addresses. >> The choice in the third situation mentioned in the introduction is = made by the originator of the representation, not the receiver. The = selected representation is still packaged in an = application/multipart-core envelope so the media type does not need to = diverge =E2=80=94 it is essentially used as the (type!) union (a.k.a. = choice) of the media types that the application wants to be able to put = in the envelope. >>=20 >> We may have painted ourselves into a corner in RFC 7641 with the = mandate that the representations provided by an observable resource stay = within the same media type (content-format) over time. This makes it = difficult in CoAP to observe a resource that alternates between a = =E2=80=9Cpending=E2=80=9D and a =E2=80=9Cready=E2=80=9D state that have = different structures of their representation. Multipart-core can be = used to package either into the same media type. >=20 > So while this may not be quite multipart/alternative, there are still > alternatives involved; they are just delievered in separate (streamed) > responses, as opposed to together in the same one. That is, the > alternation is over time and not at the choice of the recipient. Multipart/alternative is recipient choice; scenario 3 is originator = choice. The need for the =E2=80=9Cunion type=E2=80=9D alluded to in the = introduction may be idiosyncratic to CoAP: We expect an observed = resource to go through states that all can be described by = representations of the same content type. Maybe that was not such a = smart expectation, but the union type mechanism allows us to paper over = that. In any case, there is no =E2=80=9Corder=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cchoice= =E2=80=9D problem in this scenario. >> I don=E2=80=99t think the third situation has semantics that differ = from the first two. >> You still get a bag with a representation in it (or maybe none). You = still need to look into the bag to see what form it takes this time. = Actually, the second situation might also apply, so you might indeed get = a couple representations in certain instances because that=E2=80=99s = what best describes the resource at this particular time. >=20 > I think it's important to be clear about whether the sequencing within = a > given content array is or is not semantically relevant, This is very much a function of the semantics that the request had on = the resource. If you get a mail with multipart/mixed in it, is it = semantically relevant that the service manual is first, then the user = manual next among the attachments? The ordering may simply be alphabetic by name (and that may actually be = what the request originally said). > and under what > conditions a recipient might only consult a subset of the array > (multipart/alternative) vs. assembling a conglomerate from components = of > different types (multipart/mixed). That is now addressed. =20 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Aug 21 13:39:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60FDC120098 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:39:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K7Zl9Mwlkxuq for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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HE1PR07MB4410.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.176.167.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2199.10; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:39:48 +0000 Received: from HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ec0d:f9d3:7159:ba7]) by HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ec0d:f9d3:7159:ba7%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2199.011; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:39:48 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: "core@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: MULTIPART-CT: A few editorial comments Thread-Index: AQHVQWZgcXFsFiMu/0yz/ihjx4/NdacGPfhA Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:39:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <189192D6-F32E-450F-998F-20FA87761487@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <189192D6-F32E-450F-998F-20FA87761487@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: fi-FI X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=christer.holmberg@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [79.134.118.162] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email 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--_000_HE1PR07MB316145ACB50BED8616460D3993AA0HE1PR07MB3161eurp_-- From nobody Wed Aug 21 15:33:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891D4120843; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 15:33:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4QlnDInA74Dc; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 15:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A89B120816; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 15:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 15:33:15 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: CC: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 15:33:12 -0700 Message-ID: <02f001d55870$6c9938e0$45cbaaa0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdVYZPF9WJUtblCDQeytd3wDbkI2aw== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: [core] Pub-Sub Issues/Discussions X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:33:29 -0000 So I found the interim call today very useful in terms of trying to get some progress on how to implement a Pub-Sub server. I am going to recap what I heard and add some items that were not said but I think were implied from the discussions for general review. 1. Vocabulary and default values: The set of items in proposal.txt is a reasonable starting place but is going to get changed in many ways going forward, not the least in the URI being used. Content Type: If not provided by the creator defaults to the first content type published to the topic. One implication of this is that all items published to the server are required to have a content type. Lifetime: There are two separate lifetime values, one for the topic and one for the data. The default for the topic is infinite, but a server could be configured to have a lower value to prevent building up crud. The default for data is infinite and should not be configured by the server only the topic creator. A topic expiring will automatically garbage collect the data object as well. Vocabulary will need to provide some behavior questions on read/write and filter: I expect there are write-once items (ct, initial value), items which are never read (initial value) 2. CoRAL order implications: The gist of the conversation is that for some applications the order of items in the CoRAL serialization is significant, but for other applications the order is not going to be of significance. My guess is that for pub-sub the order is not significant and will start that way. The order however might be significant for some of the data that is attached and attributed to the topic creator. This leads to a CoRAL discussion topic about how to put third party statements into a CoRAL document in such a way as to make sure that the third party is identified as responsible for the statements and not the provider of the CoRAL document. 3. Hierarchy of topics: This really needs to be done, but nobody really understands the implications of what should be done. As an example, can you "subscribe to a root resource" and get any events for all changes in the child nodes as well as the root node. If the answer is yes, then there are questions about how this is presented to the subscriber to ensure that this works well. The ability to do filtering, condition/event triggers and so forth makes this even more complicated. 4. Currently the concept of creating a topic on publish of the data is no longer viable. There will be a method for providing an initial data item to be published when the topic is created, along with the ability to do a tombstone publication. 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d; Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0801MB1852 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] MULTIPART-CT: A few editorial comments X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:02:38 -0000 T24gMjIvMDgvMjAxOSwgMDc6NTUsICJDaHJpc3RlciBIb2xtYmVyZyIgPGNocmlzdGVyLmhvbG1i ZXJnQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCiAgICBIb3dldmVyLCBJJ2QgbGlrZSBwZW9wbGUg dG8gdmVyaWZ5IHRoYXQgbXkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZyBpbiBjb21tZW50IFEyIGlzIGNvcnJlY3Qu DQoNCkl0IGRlcGVuZHMgb24gd2hhdCB5b3UgbWVhbiBieSAibWVzc2FnZSIuICBXaGF0IHdlIHJl 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11:56:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:56:48 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588160602.152006-bdc12577ae0315527ed39b8ca50d086a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20745914-A504-4181-B39D-742C62688C46@tzi.org> References: <189192D6-F32E-450F-998F-20FA87761487@ericsson.com> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] MULTIPART-CT: A few editorial comments X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:57:01 -0000 Hi Christer, thank you for alerting us to this oversight. (And thank you for the critical reading in the first place!) > Q1: >=20 > The Introduction says talks about =E2=80=9Crequest or response = body=E2=80=99. >=20 > However, when looking in RFC 7252, I don=E2=80=99t find =E2=80=98body=E2= =80=99 anywhere. Right. Body is an RFC 7959 term (which was adapted from HTTP=E2=80=99s = =E2=80=9CMessage Body=E2=80=9D, obviously). I didn=E2=80=99t really want to muddy the picture by explaining again = that CoAP block-wise transfers can cut up a single body into multiple = payloads (as per RFC 7959). The current text already might be = misunderstood to say that this media type is CoAP specific, which it is = not at all. We didn=E2=80=99t go to the trouble of having a formal terminology = import section (apart from the usual BCP14 boilerplate in 1.1). We = could add that text, reference 7959 and 7230 as well, and make this = abundantly clear. Or we could leave it as it is. > I assume that =E2=80=98body=E2=80=99 refers to what RFC 7252 calls = =E2=80=98payload=E2=80=99. If so, I suggest aligning the terminology. >=20 > (For some reason section 10.2.3 of RFC 7252 does use = =E2=80=98message-body=E2=80=99, without any explanation or reference, = but I guess that is just an error) That is about the message-body on the HTTP side, so it is exactly as it = should be. (Actually, 1.2 of 7252 says=20 =C2=BBThis specification requires readers to be familiar with all the = terms and concepts that are discussed in [RFC2616], including "resource", "representation", "cache", and "fresh". (Having been completed before the updated set of HTTP RFCs, RFC 7230 to RFC 7235, became available, this specification specifically references the predecessor version -- RFC 2616.) In addition, this specification defines the following terminology: =C2=AB [=E2=80=A6] So this term is already defined in RFC 7252, albeit implicitly only.) > Q2: >=20 > Related to Q1, the text says: >=20 > =E2=80=9Ccan be used to combine representations of zero or more = different media types into a single message=E2=80=9D Actually, it now says This memo defines application/multipart-core, an application- independent media-type that can be used to combine representations of zero or more different media types, each along with a CoAP Content- Format identifier, into a single representation, with minimal framing overhead. This combined representation may then be carried in a single message, such as a CoAP [RFC7252] request or response body. (Where =E2=80=9Cmessage=E2=80=9D might be a whole block-wise transfer.) Is that better? > I assume it means =E2=80=98single message payload=E2=80=99? Because, = you are not combing other parts (Codes, Tokens etc) of the message, are = you? To carry that in a single message, you would carry it in the message=E2=80= =99s payload (or, theoretically, in an option, but we only do that in = OSCORE so far). > I think it would be more clear if you said =E2=80=98combine multiple = representations, each using the same or different media types, into a = single message payload=E2=80=99. The new text above more clearly separates the representation combining = from the ability to send it in a single message then. >=20 > --- >=20 > Q3: The draft uses both =E2=80=98media type=E2=80=99 and = =E2=80=98media-type=E2=80=99. Yeah, that=E2=80=99s a bit funny. I actually believe we should have used media-type throughout the history = of the term, as this is an artificial construct that only loosely = relates to media types (types of media). But maybe this draft is not the place to correct this mistake which has = been in place since 1996. > RFC 7252 uses =E2=80=98media type=E2=80=99 (there is one instance of = =E2=80=98media-type=E2=80=99, though), That one instance is in the construction =E2=80=9Cmedia-type ranges=E2=80=9D= , which is the normal way to compose composites in English. > so maybe align with that? I=E2=80=99m sure the RFC editor will force us to do that anyway, but I = have made the change to =E2=80=9Cmedia type=E2=80=9D (with a space) in = the editors=E2=80=99 copy in case we get to submit another version. = Waiting for CI to show this at https://core-wg.github.io/multipart-ct/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct.html (And the RFC editor will make us expand abbreviations and all that, = too.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Aug 23 00:55:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D6212007A for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 00:55:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bhB61MTmf4sw for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 00:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B625A1201CE for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 13:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (CPE788a207f397a-CMbc4dfb96bb50.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [174.116.121.43]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E76E1F45E; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 20:50:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id D77383FB5; Fri, 23 Aug 2019 16:50:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Christer Holmberg cc: Thomas Fossati , "core\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: <0F72A75A-3CCE-46FA-A4B8-333978B5C0A8@arm.com> <209EAFAF-C047-4CD1-BEF9-72FC3FFEE7B1@ericsson.com> <413F2C93-F465-4116-9F1E-0755CBC07D24@arm.com> <90ECE0E2-40D2-4F00-A50F-A8CC0F9647E6@arm.com> Comments: In-reply-to Christer Holmberg message dated "Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:23:51 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 16:50:48 -0400 Message-ID: <15320.1566593448@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] MULTIPART-CT: A few editorial comments X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 20:50:23 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Christer Holmberg wrote: > Pull request: https://github.com/core-wg/multipart-ct/pull/26 looks good to me too. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl1gUagACgkQlUzhVv38 QpDyCwf8CInE3ktegaTsYzUn2lWOMyFZoDEKovj8vgajcwWEIb64lcwsc1Wzdcfj 4qMDXmP8ROQrHJDPxkPjxWHv5qiYqYyXts+g79RINcjZyn26JUwDFS48/FmO6cYO /I4RY7FoPiFdeObsGtwLfTNVCzC+ZUo+iMrEwcnWQ2l6Kkxm0d1vl5eHY8+7J97i bCK9zp9cLM7mukT4XQ74A3KanJIdCKBl1jc0THxDPiwXx9O/W89Fvo7Z69JWbZpF aeOux3HYGRUzQdGjeM2vOk+420XG7q/zrJ/RVdIJkH8c/fb8aC58r+kUx51HHQs0 z1wKVdXP8gUCd0UVnKoB0UROjna2mQ== =jIpP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Aug 25 18:08:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD36120041 for ; 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Mon, 26 Aug 2019 03:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:31:28 +0300 From: =?utf-8?Q?Jaime=20Jim=C3=A9nez?= To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190826073128.eprl65oz3gn37xya@EMB-918HFH01> References: <20190821082234.5ostmp5mwdzn6uk7@EMB-918HFH01> <20190821082555.whoele3gzsm4ymsg@EMB-918HFH01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20190821082555.whoele3gzsm4ymsg@EMB-918HFH01> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_CoRE_Working_Group_Adoption_call_f?= =?utf-8?q?or_draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 07:31:53 -0000 Dear all, as there seems to be some timing issues with the deadline of the WGA, I'd like to move it ahead few days to the 1st of September. I hope this does not create problems to potential reviewers as there is still this week to provide feedback. BR, -- Jaime Jiménez On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 11:25:55AM +0300, Jaime Jiménez wrote: > > Forgot to add that the call will last a couple of weeks and will end the > 4th of September. > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 11:22:34AM +0300, Jaime Jiménez wrote: > > Dear Core WG, > > > > We would like to start the call for adoption on > > draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03. > > >From the minutes I see there was interest in the room during IETF 105. > > > > The draft registers some additional basic unit types for SenML (e.g. > > Byte, etc). It also proposes a secondary registry of derived units > > (e.g. milisecond, minute, etc) with different scales and > > offset that better adjust to their "common uses". > > > > At a general level the need for this secondary registry has been > > discussed in other SDOs and they too found it would be useful to have. > > In order to encourage interoperability the main unit registry would be > > more restricted. > > > > BR, > > -- Jaime Jiménez > > > > _______________________________________________ > > core mailing list > > core@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core From nobody Mon Aug 26 02:14:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8799C120048 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 02:14:48 -0700 (PDT) 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Auc5JjoEaDMWl08qmQmRLUTL7lf4DWqNGDG8YJ1VLSVMhNBLHxH31cF+BC1iHE6r KcrlRLDCa34McWiUwUrbbvysDXmFwb2xEw57oHO5MGsd8RpuHgPgEYRSjELI5Xfs 6ZpB2zS22imyRukcgBwDqyP49gUYg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrudehgedgvdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtugfgjggfsehtkeertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpeflrghi mhgvucflihhmrohnvgiiuceojhgrihhmvgesihhkihdrfhhiqeenucfkphepfeejrddvud elrdehhedruddvgeenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhgrihhmvgesihhkihdr fhhinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from EMB-918HFH01 (37-219-55-124.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi [37.219.55.124]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EC56E80059; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 06:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 13:18:24 +0300 From: =?utf-8?Q?Jaime=20Jim=C3=A9nez?= To: Hytonen Harri Cc: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190826101823.ohmkpzdll633l6tk@EMB-918HFH01> References: <20190821082234.5ostmp5mwdzn6uk7@EMB-918HFH01> <20190821082555.whoele3gzsm4ymsg@EMB-918HFH01> <646CF47C-ED1A-4163-A957-EE88E1AB9CD7@omaorg.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?=F0=9F=94=94_CoRE_Working_Group_Adoption_call_f?= =?utf-8?q?or_draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:18:31 -0000 Hi Harri, > I'm not sure if I have the right to vote here, As far as adopting this document goes, all opinions count. > but as an employee of a global weather and environment sensor manufacturer, I strongly suggest that the following units are added into the secondary unit registry: > > 1. mm/h (millimeters per hour, scale 1/3600000): This is a standard unit for rain intensity. The primary unit m/s is very awkward to use and results a very small floating point number. > 2. ppm (parts per million, scale 1/10000 of %): Standard unit for mass fraction e.g. CO2 concentration in air > 3. hPa (hecto Pascal, scale 100 of Pa): Standard unit for air pressure. > 4. mm (millimeter, scale 1/1000 of m): Standard unit for rain accumulation. > this is good feedback for the authors, and I take it that then the subregistry is needed. IMO the authors can probably add those units after the document is adopted and before submitting the WG document version. > Br, > Harri Hytönen > Systems Architect > Vaisala Thanks! -- Jaime Jiménez > > -----Original Message----- > From: core On Behalf Of Joaquin Prado > Sent: Monday, 26 August, 2019 12:15 > To: Gillmore, Matthew ; Ari Keränen ; Jaime Jiménez ; core@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [core] 🔔 CoRE Working Group Adoption call for draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03 > > +1 > I am the administrator of the OMA LwM2M registry and I fully support draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03. > > We need the implementation of the secondary registry of derived units. Currently, we have Objects that are failing the validation because some of these units are missing from SenML registry. > Our LwM2M tools are reading directly the units from the SenML registry. > > Regards > Joaquin Prado > > On 8/26/19, 2:08 AM, "core on behalf of Gillmore, Matthew" wrote: > > +1 > > I am the chair of the OMA IPSO working group and fully support adopting this document. SENML units are the standard for smart objects in OMA. > > -----Original Message----- > From: core On Behalf Of Ari Keränen > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 4:33 AM > To: Jaime Jiménez ; core@ietf.org > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [core] 🔔 CoRE Working Group Adoption call for draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03 > > I support adopting this document. > > The new registry and units are important for OMA SpecWorks’ IPSO models use of SenML and also very useful for SenML at large. > > > Cheers, > Ari > > > On 21 Aug 2019, at 11.26, Jaime Jiménez wrote: > > > > > > Forgot to add that the call will last a couple of weeks and will end > > the 4th of September. > > > >> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 11:22:34AM +0300, Jaime Jiménez wrote: > >> Dear Core WG, > >> > >> We would like to start the call for adoption on > >> draft-bormann-senml-more-units-03. > >>> From the minutes I see there was interest in the room during IETF 105. > >> > >> The draft registers some additional basic unit types for SenML (e.g. > >> Byte, etc). It also proposes a secondary registry of derived units > >> (e.g. milisecond, minute, etc) with different scales and offset that > >> better adjust to their "common uses". > >> > >> At a general level the need for this secondary registry has been > >> discussed in other SDOs and they too found it would be useful to have. > >> In order to encourage interoperability the main unit registry would > >> be more restricted. > >> > >> BR, > >> -- Jaime Jiménez > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> core mailing list > >> core@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > > > > _______________________________________________ > > core mailing list > > core@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core > > > _______________________________________________ > core mailing list > core@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core From nobody Mon Aug 26 11:18:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3ABA120BD7; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:18:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SBeBUbwPdv1n; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7B56120BEC; Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x7QII2E3026231 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:18:05 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 13:18:02 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Alexey Melnikov , The IESG , draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct@ietf.org, Jaime =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jim=E9nez?= , core-chairs@ietf.org, core@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190826181801.GJ84368@kduck.mit.edu> References: <155675554069.2851.9351849772053196736.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <459433ef-5cb5-4c3e-a32e-a5d063b1ccf0@www.fastmail.com> <20190504232153.GA19805@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 18:18:18 -0000 On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 09:37:10PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi Benjamin, > > it took us a while to better understand the concern and come up with text. > > We have now submitted -04: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04 > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04.txt [replying at the top since what I am trying to say is essentially wrapping all the inline notes together] I can grudgingly accept the decision to focus solely on a multipart/mixed equivalent, though it remains surpising to me that stopping there is desired. That is, my reading of RFC 2046 is that the "mixed" subtype is a catchall generic container that is usable as a fallback for when a more-specific subtype is not supported/understood, but that direct use was somewhat discouraged due to the more rich array of semantics available (noting that 2046 itself specifies several additional subtypes with the "more-rich" semantics). So it's surprising that we stop with the generic container, and do not mirror RFC 2046 in defining some more-rich subtypes with precise semantics. That said, within the context of only specifying a multipart/mixed analogue, I still think we need to have some further discussion about the applicability of those semantics to the listed use cases. RFC 2046 is quite clear that "mixed" is used when the body parts "need to be bundled in a particular order". The first use case listed, for audio snippets to be played back in sequence or search results, is a natural fit for multipart/mixed. The second ("bag of representations"), however, includes a note that "the sequence in which these occur may not be relevant to the application", which does not seem like a good fit for multipart/mixed: depending on the specifics, either multipart/alternative or multipart/parallel seem to be a better match for the stated semantics. The third listed use case (sender-selects from a union) also doesn't feel like a great fit, since there is mostly just one "inner" type in a give response, and thus no ordering to be had; even in the (transient?) case where a resource is represented by multiple of the potential output formats, it's not clear that the ordering will always be important. This use case in particular feels like a very good match for defining a new subtype with precise, rich, semantics for "sender selects from union". Finally, I would like to continue to push back on the sense that it is good to have the surrounding (request) context play a large role in interpreting the semantics of the response. While this is of course unavoidable to some extent, I am not sure that encouraging it is wise. Consider, for example, JWT, which is becoming quite popular, but also is having to react to quite real security threats due to the lack of explicit typing from the start. The mere fact that I have to ask "can my access token be misused as an identity token?" seems like a failure of the context-dependent semantics. Granted, JWT is a cryptographic construct involving a signature from a trusted authority, which is not the case here, but the general question of whether we want to place more weight on the two parties communicating making the same implicit/heuristic-based choices about interpreting content when we can easily make the semantics more explicit and rely less on all implementations making the same choices seems to still apply. Thanks, Ben > > On May 5, 2019, at 01:21, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 02, 2019 at 03:11:25PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> Hi Alexey, > >> > >> On May 2, 2019, at 14:40, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Benjamin, > >>> > >>> On Thu, May 2, 2019, at 1:05 AM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote: > >>> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> DISCUSS: > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> It's not clear to me that we're really specifying the semantics of a > >>>> single media-type. The introduction discusses how we may want multiple > >>>> representations to appear in a sequence, potentially representing > >>>> different content. > >>> > >>> I think this is similar to multipart/mixed. > >> > >> We were indeed trying to follow the model of multipart/mixed. > >> This offers a number of embedded representations the sequence of which may or may not be important. > >> > >>>> Or we may have a set of related representations that > >>>> conceptually are the same content (but are they literally the same > >>>> resource, or related content?). > >>> > >>> My understanding is that they are related contents. > >> > >> There is no promise that the related items are conceptually the same content. > >> The difference between the first situation and the second one mainly is that the sequence is not important in the second (i.e., we are using the sequence to describe a bag). > >> > >>>> And there is yet a third option -- one > >>>> that I'm not sure I fully understand -- wherein the representation is > >>>> not important, but rather which format is chosen of the several > >>>> possibilities, to the extent that extreme compression of the > >>>> representation is possible, with the compression just outputting the > >>>> format indicator. > >>> > >>> Hmm, I missed that. I think this is similar to multipart/alternative > >> > >> That wasn’t the intention. > > > > I think that analogies to multipart/mixed and/or multipart/alternative > > would help the reviewer assess whether the document text succeeds at > > describing the intended behavior (though it's not clear that using such a > > reference to attempt to define the behavior by reference is a useful plan). > > Please have a look at what we did — we made it more explicit that the semantics are indeed refined by the request context, but that multipart/mixed is our model here and multipart/alternative is outside the range that this media type addresses. > > >> The choice in the third situation mentioned in the introduction is made by the originator of the representation, not the receiver. The selected representation is still packaged in an application/multipart-core envelope so the media type does not need to diverge — it is essentially used as the (type!) union (a.k.a. choice) of the media types that the application wants to be able to put in the envelope. > >> > >> We may have painted ourselves into a corner in RFC 7641 with the mandate that the representations provided by an observable resource stay within the same media type (content-format) over time. This makes it difficult in CoAP to observe a resource that alternates between a “pending†and a “ready†state that have different structures of their representation. Multipart-core can be used to package either into the same media type. > > > > So while this may not be quite multipart/alternative, there are still > > alternatives involved; they are just delievered in separate (streamed) > > responses, as opposed to together in the same one. That is, the > > alternation is over time and not at the choice of the recipient. > > Multipart/alternative is recipient choice; scenario 3 is originator choice. > The need for the “union type†alluded to in the introduction may be idiosyncratic to CoAP: We expect an observed resource to go through states that all can be described by representations of the same content type. Maybe that was not such a smart expectation, but the union type mechanism allows us to paper over that. In any case, there is no “order†or “choice†problem in this scenario. > > >> I don’t think the third situation has semantics that differ from the first two. > >> You still get a bag with a representation in it (or maybe none). You still need to look into the bag to see what form it takes this time. Actually, the second situation might also apply, so you might indeed get a couple representations in certain instances because that’s what best describes the resource at this particular time. > > > > I think it's important to be clear about whether the sequencing within a > > given content array is or is not semantically relevant, > > This is very much a function of the semantics that the request had on the resource. If you get a mail with multipart/mixed in it, is it semantically relevant that the service manual is first, then the user manual next among the attachments? > The ordering may simply be alphabetic by name (and that may actually be what the request originally said). > > > and under what > > conditions a recipient might only consult a subset of the array > > (multipart/alternative) vs. assembling a conglomerate from components of > > different types (multipart/mixed). > > That is now addressed. > > Grüße, Carsten > From nobody Tue Aug 27 12:44:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B26120113; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 12:44:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q7NElZf5nmCL; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 12:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C31A120130; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 12:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46Hzp42fGvz101v; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 21:43:56 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20190826181801.GJ84368@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 21:43:55 +0200 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , The IESG , draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct@ietf.org, =?utf-8?Q?Jaime_Jim=C3=A9nez?= , core-chairs@ietf.org, core@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588627834.081674-97017f579d06b08eda745f62f50c5f67 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <79816A1A-7863-47FC-8EF7-B6BB42A49D1E@tzi.org> References: <155675554069.2851.9351849772053196736.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <459433ef-5cb5-4c3e-a32e-a5d063b1ccf0@www.fastmail.com> <20190504232153.GA19805@kduck.mit.edu> <20190826181801.GJ84368@kduck.mit.edu> To: Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:44:02 -0000 Hi Benjamin, I completely agree that signed security assertions need to be = interpretable without external context. But that is a very different = world from the media type being defined here. In a CoAP interaction, the response might be (literally) 33.5 to tell you the temperature in my room. SenML can be used to include = more context, but often the request context is really needed to make = sense of the response (here probably something like =E2=80=9CGET = /temp1=E2=80=9D, translated into a CoAP request), and additional = information may only be available through the installation context = (e.g., that this temperature is in =C2=B0C and not in =C2=B0F, or that = the above request to [2001:db8::1]:5683 actually leads to the = temperature sensor for the room to right of the corridor, second door). (OSCORE protects the relationship between the request context and the = response, but cannot really protect the external context except by = relating the key of the server with its function/installation location. = Where the latter is really hard to protect, and then somebody can still = come with a lighter and heat up the sensor, leading to incorrect = temperature measurements just for fun.) This is the reason why the ambiguities incurred by using this media type = are really on the mild side. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Aug 26, 2019, at 20:18, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 09:37:10PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Hi Benjamin, >>=20 >> it took us a while to better understand the concern and come up with = text. >>=20 >> We have now submitted -04: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04 >> = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04.txt >=20 > [replying at the top since what I am trying to say is essentially = wrapping > all the inline notes together] >=20 > I can grudgingly accept the decision to focus solely on a = multipart/mixed > equivalent, though it remains surpising to me that stopping there is > desired. That is, my reading of RFC 2046 is that the "mixed" subtype = is a > catchall generic container that is usable as a fallback for when a > more-specific subtype is not supported/understood, but that direct use = was > somewhat discouraged due to the more rich array of semantics available > (noting that 2046 itself specifies several additional subtypes with = the > "more-rich" semantics). So it's surprising that we stop with the = generic > container, and do not mirror RFC 2046 in defining some more-rich = subtypes > with precise semantics. >=20 > That said, within the context of only specifying a multipart/mixed > analogue, I still think we need to have some further discussion about = the > applicability of those semantics to the listed use cases. RFC 2046 is > quite clear that "mixed" is used when the body parts "need to be = bundled in > a particular order". The first use case listed, for audio snippets to = be > played back in sequence or search results, is a natural fit for > multipart/mixed. The second ("bag of representations"), however, = includes > a note that "the sequence in which these occur may not be relevant to = the > application", which does not seem like a good fit for multipart/mixed: > depending on the specifics, either multipart/alternative or > multipart/parallel seem to be a better match for the stated semantics. = The > third listed use case (sender-selects from a union) also doesn't feel = like > a great fit, since there is mostly just one "inner" type in a give > response, and thus no ordering to be had; even in the (transient?) = case > where a resource is represented by multiple of the potential output > formats, it's not clear that the ordering will always be important. = This > use case in particular feels like a very good match for defining a new > subtype with precise, rich, semantics for "sender selects from union". >=20 > Finally, I would like to continue to push back on the sense that it is = good > to have the surrounding (request) context play a large role in = interpreting > the semantics of the response. While this is of course unavoidable to = some > extent, I am not sure that encouraging it is wise. Consider, for = example, > JWT, which is becoming quite popular, but also is having to react to = quite > real security threats due to the lack of explicit typing from the = start. > The mere fact that I have to ask "can my access token be misused as an > identity token?" seems like a failure of the context-dependent = semantics. > Granted, JWT is a cryptographic construct involving a signature from a > trusted authority, which is not the case here, but the general = question of > whether we want to place more weight on the two parties communicating > making the same implicit/heuristic-based choices about interpreting = content > when we can easily make the semantics more explicit and rely less on = all > implementations making the same choices seems to still apply. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Ben >=20 >=20 >>> On May 5, 2019, at 01:21, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Thu, May 02, 2019 at 03:11:25PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> Hi Alexey, >>>>=20 >>>> On May 2, 2019, at 14:40, Alexey Melnikov = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Thu, May 2, 2019, at 1:05 AM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> It's not clear to me that we're really specifying the semantics = of a >>>>>> single media-type. The introduction discusses how we may want = multiple >>>>>> representations to appear in a sequence, potentially representing >>>>>> different content. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think this is similar to multipart/mixed. >>>>=20 >>>> We were indeed trying to follow the model of multipart/mixed. >>>> This offers a number of embedded representations the sequence of = which may or may not be important. >>>>=20 >>>>>> Or we may have a set of related representations that >>>>>> conceptually are the same content (but are they literally the = same >>>>>> resource, or related content?). >>>>>=20 >>>>> My understanding is that they are related contents. >>>>=20 >>>> There is no promise that the related items are conceptually the = same content. >>>> The difference between the first situation and the second one = mainly is that the sequence is not important in the second (i.e., we are = using the sequence to describe a bag). >>>>=20 >>>>>> And there is yet a third option -- one >>>>>> that I'm not sure I fully understand -- wherein the = representation is >>>>>> not important, but rather which format is chosen of the several >>>>>> possibilities, to the extent that extreme compression of the >>>>>> representation is possible, with the compression just outputting = the >>>>>> format indicator. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hmm, I missed that. I think this is similar to = multipart/alternative >>>>=20 >>>> That wasn=E2=80=99t the intention. >>>=20 >>> I think that analogies to multipart/mixed and/or = multipart/alternative >>> would help the reviewer assess whether the document text succeeds at >>> describing the intended behavior (though it's not clear that using = such a >>> reference to attempt to define the behavior by reference is a useful = plan). >>=20 >> Please have a look at what we did =E2=80=94 we made it more explicit = that the semantics are indeed refined by the request context, but that = multipart/mixed is our model here and multipart/alternative is outside = the range that this media type addresses. >>=20 >>>> The choice in the third situation mentioned in the introduction is = made by the originator of the representation, not the receiver. The = selected representation is still packaged in an = application/multipart-core envelope so the media type does not need to = diverge =E2=80=94 it is essentially used as the (type!) union (a.k.a. = choice) of the media types that the application wants to be able to put = in the envelope. >>>>=20 >>>> We may have painted ourselves into a corner in RFC 7641 with the = mandate that the representations provided by an observable resource stay = within the same media type (content-format) over time. This makes it = difficult in CoAP to observe a resource that alternates between a = =E2=80=9Cpending=E2=80=9D and a =E2=80=9Cready=E2=80=9D state that have = different structures of their representation. Multipart-core can be = used to package either into the same media type. >>>=20 >>> So while this may not be quite multipart/alternative, there are = still >>> alternatives involved; they are just delievered in separate = (streamed) >>> responses, as opposed to together in the same one. That is, the >>> alternation is over time and not at the choice of the recipient. >>=20 >> Multipart/alternative is recipient choice; scenario 3 is originator = choice. >> The need for the =E2=80=9Cunion type=E2=80=9D alluded to in the = introduction may be idiosyncratic to CoAP: We expect an observed = resource to go through states that all can be described by = representations of the same content type. Maybe that was not such a = smart expectation, but the union type mechanism allows us to paper over = that. In any case, there is no =E2=80=9Corder=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cchoice= =E2=80=9D problem in this scenario. >>=20 >>>> I don=E2=80=99t think the third situation has semantics that differ = from the first two. >>>> You still get a bag with a representation in it (or maybe none). = You still need to look into the bag to see what form it takes this time. = Actually, the second situation might also apply, so you might indeed = get a couple representations in certain instances because that=E2=80=99s = what best describes the resource at this particular time. >>>=20 >>> I think it's important to be clear about whether the sequencing = within a >>> given content array is or is not semantically relevant, >>=20 >> This is very much a function of the semantics that the request had on = the resource. If you get a mail with multipart/mixed in it, is it = semantically relevant that the service manual is first, then the user = manual next among the attachments? >> The ordering may simply be alphabetic by name (and that may actually = be what the request originally said). >>=20 >>> and under what >>> conditions a recipient might only consult a subset of the array >>> (multipart/alternative) vs. assembling a conglomerate from = components of >>> different types (multipart/mixed). >>=20 >> That is now addressed. =20 >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 28 06:30:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A367F120888; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 06:30:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-core-senml-etch@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann , core-chairs@ietf.org, cabo@tzi.org, core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <156699900565.32507.5256098120423983260.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 06:30:05 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-?= =?utf-8?q?ietf-core-senml-etch-05=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:30:10 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-senml-etch/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Just one minor comment: I guess it okay to use IPSO dimmable light smart object as one real life example, however, one could also just use a made-up generic example instead as I guess it's often done in RFCs. 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Thu, 29 Aug 2019 10:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <8707800F-284D-41F7-8D98-8BAD55340DC5@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 10:28:01 +0200 Cc: "draft-ietf-core-senml-etch@ietf.org" , "core-chairs@ietf.org" , "core@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588760080.34867-cb06ff2c950a7e998c60a53e74001686 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <156699900565.32507.5256098120423983260.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <8707800F-284D-41F7-8D98-8BAD55340DC5@ericsson.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?Ari_Ker=C3=A4nen?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-?= =?utf-8?q?ietf-core-senml-etch-05=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 08:28:09 -0000 Off-IESG comment: Do we know how a made-up example would be better? It=E2=80=99s not like you need to learn the IPSO world to understand = this example. (But if you are reading the document, you may already know about IPSO = anyway=E2=80=A6) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Aug 29, 2019, at 10:13, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen = wrote: >=20 > Thank you for the review Mirja! > =EF=BB=BF >> On 28 Aug 2019, at 16.30, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker = wrote: >>=20 >> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05: No Objection > [...] >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> Just one minor comment: I guess it okay to use IPSO dimmable light = smart object >> as one real life example, however, one could also just use a made-up = generic >> example instead as I guess it's often done in RFCs. >=20 > We used IPSO object as an example here since the original design and = requirements for this work come from the LwM2M protocol that commonly = uses IPSO objects.=20 >=20 > That said, there's no strong need to do it that way and we could = change that also to a more generic made-up example if that would be more = suitable here. >=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Ari From nobody Thu Aug 29 02:18:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256A0120805; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 02:18:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <156707033806.21172.3473298348351030923@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 02:18:58 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-senml-data-ct-00.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 09:18:58 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : SenML Data Value Content-Format Indication Authors : Ari Keranen Carsten Bormann Filename : draft-ietf-core-senml-data-ct-00.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2019-08-29 Abstract: The Sensor Measurement Lists (SenML) media type supports multiple types of values, from numbers to text strings and arbitrary binary data values. In order to simplify processing of the data values this document proposes to specify a new SenML field for indicating the Content-Format of the data. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-senml-data-ct/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-senml-data-ct-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-core-senml-data-ct-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Aug 29 02:59:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACD512011C; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 02:59:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <156707277244.21012.18369379471957528260@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 02:59:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-coral-00.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 09:59:33 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : The Constrained RESTful Application Language (CoRAL) Author : Klaus Hartke Filename : draft-ietf-core-coral-00.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2019-08-29 Abstract: The Constrained RESTful Application Language (CoRAL) defines a data model and interaction model as well as two specialized serialization formats for the description of typed connections between resources on the Web ("links"), possible operations on such resources ("forms"), as well as simple resource metadata. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-coral/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-coral-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-core-coral-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Aug 29 03:07:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76EBF120273; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 03:07:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: core@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: core@ietf.org Message-ID: <156707322642.21012.3730538392300521954@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 03:07:06 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] I-D Action: draft-ietf-core-href-00.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 10:07:07 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Constrained RESTful Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Constrained Resource Identifiers Author : Klaus Hartke Filename : draft-ietf-core-href-00.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2019-08-29 Abstract: Constrained Resource Identifiers (CoRIs) are an alternate serialization of Uniform Resource Identifiers (URIs) that encodes the URI components in Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR) instead of a string of characters. This simplifies parsing, reference resolution, and comparison of URIs in environments with severe limitations on processing power, code size, and memory size. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-href/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-href-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-core-href-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Aug 29 03:30:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7CC120145 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 03:30:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MxTIqdoDZ7nI for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 03:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3474812011C for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 03:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46JzQy34zmz10Y5; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 12:30:50 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <156707374972.21167.11727056100146778914@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 12:30:48 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 588767446.7215151-6117850c6a4e2f3cc8cf390d01f2aa93 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <15738878-161A-4D4A-82FD-EB8937E754D0@tzi.org> References: <156707374972.21167.11727056100146778914@ietfa.amsl.com> To: core X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] I-D Action: draft-bormann-senml-more-units-04.txt X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 10:30:54 -0000 While we are waiting for the WG adoption call to complete, I have = updated the individual draft to reflect input on this list (and one = off-list input from the IPSO github repository). > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-senml-more-units-04 This essentially has registry actions (kg/m3 for the base units, for = mass concentrations, and a few secondary units that came up, including = ug/m3). There also is a small technical change: The text now makes it explicit = that scale factors can be written in exponential notation, e.g. ug/m3 is = 1e-9 kg/m3 (the alternative, writing 1/1000000000, is unwieldy and = error-prone, and becomes even more so when we=E2=80=99ll have nuclear = power at home controlled over the Internet of Things :-). So if the WG adoption call goes through and I submit the draft-ietf = Working Group document version, I=E2=80=99d like to base that on -04 = unless there is an objection to this. (And you still can chime in on = the WG adoption call, as well.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Aug 29 07:38:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietf.org Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6420112083B; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 07:38:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Sparks via Datatracker To: Cc: ietf@ietf.org, core@ietf.org, draft-ietf-core-senml-etch.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <156708950337.21012.630829697167091848@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 07:38:23 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [core] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05 X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 14:38:24 -0000 Reviewer: Robert Sparks Review result: Ready with Nits I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-core-senml-etch-05 Reviewer: Robert Sparks Review Date: 2019-08-29 IETF LC End Date: 2019-09-02 IESG Telechat date: 2019-09-05 Summary: Ready for publication as a Proposed Standard RFC, but with nits to consider before publication Nits: Since the string "-etch-" is in the media type, it might be nice to say in the document where it came from. I think the text in the interoperability considerations sections of the registrations could be improved. You mean to talk about unrecognized keys, not unrecognized key-value pairs. I also think the body of the RFC should have a very short extensibility section that explicitly says you're doing a similar thing as 8424 section 4.4 and point to that section. I am a little uncomfortable with the "Fragment Identification" section (4) of this document - it feels like a "do what we mean" statement. I don't have text to suggest. It may well be that it will be dead-obvious to an implementer what to do, but it makes me uneasy. From nobody Fri Aug 30 12:26:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686521201DE for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2019 12:26:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JbwEl9u5clGO for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2019 12:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E1AB1200F6 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2019 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 30 Aug 2019 12:26:30 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 12:26:28 -0700 Message-ID: <02b301d55f68$d3939640$7abac2c0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdVfYv4Fj/BmtpnFT7qG/2ON4FKBVw== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: [core] Observer with Get and Fetch X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 19:26:40 -0000 I have been starting to do some playing with Pub-Sub servers and in the process I ran into a question about how observe and fetch are supposed to be working together. If you observe a resource with GET, then the resource itself can make a simple decision about sending an observer notification if the same value is re-published into it. This can be done based on things like max age and its own internal state. In the case of doing an observer with a FETCH, this problem expands to be a bit larger. A resource can be updated with a different value, but if the fetch criteria is applied then there may not be a difference in the resource that would be returned beyond things like MAX-AGE and ETAG. Should the updated resource always be returned even if it does not appear to have a value change? The same rules as for a single resource can be applied if there is no change in the content of the resource. I was not able to find any good guidance in either the observe or fetch RFCs. There is a discussion about using some filtering criteria in RFC 7641 (observe), section 4.3.1 gives text that corresponds to what I said above but there is no equivalent to that text in the FETCH RFC. The state that needs to be kept for GET is small, just the last time one sent the notification relative to the max age of the current one. This is much more complicated when looking at fetch as knowing when things are going to expire may be dependent on each different set of filtering that was provided for the fetch operation. Is the best thing to do is to ignore the fact that the content would be the same and always return a notification if the content was changed? The specific thing I was looking at was doing a fetch on the "has-published-item" property of a topic on the pub-sub server which is "refreshed" every time that new content is published in the data item (or it expires). But one really only generally would only care about changes in the state. Jim From nobody Sat Aug 31 03:39:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: core@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA84120046; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 03:39:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=B+qc5i1E; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=k3qNs0Is Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8TUMspLR5ykc; Sat, 31 Aug 2019 03:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 920C4120020; 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Sat, 31 Aug 2019 06:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-B7409DC3-CEBD-4F21-861E-979305465A03 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: <20190826181801.GJ84368@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 11:39:06 +0100 Cc: Carsten Bormann , The IESG , draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct@ietf.org, =?utf-8?Q?Jaime_Jim=C3=A9nez?= , core-chairs@ietf.org, core@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <88A86206-D8D6-4B89-A1D0-A8F530779B59@fastmail.fm> References: <155675554069.2851.9351849772053196736.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <459433ef-5cb5-4c3e-a32e-a5d063b1ccf0@www.fastmail.com> <20190504232153.GA19805@kduck.mit.edu> <20190826181801.GJ84368@kduck.mit.edu> To: Benjamin Kaduk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:39:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail-B7409DC3-CEBD-4F21-861E-979305465A03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ben, > On 26 Aug 2019, at 19:18, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 >> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 09:37:10PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Hi Benjamin, >>=20 >> it took us a while to better understand the concern and come up with text= . >>=20 >> We have now submitted -04: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04 >> https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04.txt= >=20 > [replying at the top since what I am trying to say is essentially wrapping= > all the inline notes together] >=20 > I can grudgingly accept the decision to focus solely on a multipart/mixed > equivalent, though it remains surpising to me that stopping there is > desired. That is, my reading of RFC 2046 is that the "mixed" subtype is a= > catchall generic container that is usable as a fallback for when a > more-specific subtype is not supported/understood, but that direct use was= > somewhat discouraged due to the more rich array of semantics available > (noting that 2046 itself specifies several additional subtypes with the > "more-rich" semantics). Having recently spent many hours coding handling of different multipart/* me= dia types in an email client, I don=E2=80=99t think I agree. Yes, multipart/= mixed is the fallback, but I don=E2=80=99t believe that any document discour= ages its use. Certainly observing multipart/* media types used in the wild, I= only ever see multipart/mixed (the most common), multipart/alternative, mul= tipart/related, multipart/report and rarely multipart/digest. multipart/repo= rt and multipart/digest have special structure and purposes, I don=E2=80=99t= think they are relevant to draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct. > So it's surprising that we stop with the generic > container, and do not mirror RFC 2046 in defining some more-rich subtypes > with precise semantics. >=20 > That said, within the context of only specifying a multipart/mixed > analogue, I still think we need to have some further discussion about the > applicability of those semantics to the listed use cases. RFC 2046 is > quite clear that "mixed" is used when the body parts "need to be bundled i= n > a particular order". The first use case listed, for audio snippets to be > played back in sequence or search results, is a natural fit for > multipart/mixed. The second ("bag of representations"), however, includes= > a note that "the sequence in which these occur may not be relevant to the > application", which does not seem like a good fit for multipart/mixed: > depending on the specifics, either multipart/alternative or > multipart/parallel seem to be a better match for the stated semantics. =20= As far as I am concerned there is zero use of multipart/parallel in email or= web. Even if it was a good idea at the time, the market decided against it.= I think multipart/mixed is used for both as an ordered sequence and as an un= ordered collection. Considering variety of UIs for handling multipart/mixed,= I don=E2=80=99t think the difference matters significantly for people to ca= re about differences between 2 cases. > The > third listed use case (sender-selects from a union) also doesn't feel like= > a great fit, since there is mostly just one "inner" type in a give > response, and thus no ordering to be had; even in the (transient?) case > where a resource is represented by multiple of the potential output > formats, it's not clear that the ordering will always be important. This > use case in particular feels like a very good match for defining a new > subtype with precise, rich, semantics for "sender selects from union". >=20 > Finally, I would like to continue to push back on the sense that it is goo= d > to have the surrounding (request) context play a large role in interpretin= g > the semantics of the response. While this is of course unavoidable to som= e > extent, I am not sure that encouraging it is wise. Consider, for example,= > JWT, which is becoming quite popular, but also is having to react to quite= > real security threats due to the lack of explicit typing from the start. > The mere fact that I have to ask "can my access token be misused as an > identity token?" seems like a failure of the context-dependent semantics. > Granted, JWT is a cryptographic construct involving a signature from a > trusted authority, which is not the case here, but the general question of= > whether we want to place more weight on the two parties communicating > making the same implicit/heuristic-based choices about interpreting conten= t > when we can easily make the semantics more explicit and rely less on all > implementations making the same choices seems to still apply. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Ben >=20 >=20 >>> On May 5, 2019, at 01:21, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Thu, May 02, 2019 at 03:11:25PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> Hi Alexey, >>>>=20 >>>>> On May 2, 2019, at 14:40, Alexey Melnikov wro= te: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Thu, May 2, 2019, at 1:05 AM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote= : >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - >>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> It's not clear to me that we're really specifying the semantics of a >>>>>> single media-type. The introduction discusses how we may want multip= le >>>>>> representations to appear in a sequence, potentially representing >>>>>> different content. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think this is similar to multipart/mixed. >>>>=20 >>>> We were indeed trying to follow the model of multipart/mixed. >>>> This offers a number of embedded representations the sequence of which m= ay or may not be important. >>>>=20 >>>>>> Or we may have a set of related representations that >>>>>> conceptually are the same content (but are they literally the same >>>>>> resource, or related content?). >>>>>=20 >>>>> My understanding is that they are related contents. >>>>=20 >>>> There is no promise that the related items are conceptually the same co= ntent. >>>> The difference between the first situation and the second one mainly is= that the sequence is not important in the second (i.e., we are using the se= quence to describe a bag). >>>>=20 >>>>>> And there is yet a third option -- one >>>>>> that I'm not sure I fully understand -- wherein the representation is= >>>>>> not important, but rather which format is chosen of the several >>>>>> possibilities, to the extent that extreme compression of the >>>>>> representation is possible, with the compression just outputting the >>>>>> format indicator. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hmm, I missed that. I think this is similar to multipart/alternative >>>>=20 >>>> That wasn=E2=80=99t the intention. >>>=20 >>> I think that analogies to multipart/mixed and/or multipart/alternative >>> would help the reviewer assess whether the document text succeeds at >>> describing the intended behavior (though it's not clear that using such a= >>> reference to attempt to define the behavior by reference is a useful pla= n). >>=20 >> Please have a look at what we did =E2=80=94 we made it more explicit that= the semantics are indeed refined by the request context, but that multipart= /mixed is our model here and multipart/alternative is outside the range that= this media type addresses. >>=20 >>>> The choice in the third situation mentioned in the introduction is made= by the originator of the representation, not the receiver. The selected re= presentation is still packaged in an application/multipart-core envelope so t= he media type does not need to diverge =E2=80=94 it is essentially used as t= he (type!) union (a.k.a. choice) of the media types that the application wan= ts to be able to put in the envelope. >>>>=20 >>>> We may have painted ourselves into a corner in RFC 7641 with the mandat= e that the representations provided by an observable resource stay within th= e same media type (content-format) over time. This makes it difficult in Co= AP to observe a resource that alternates between a =E2=80=9Cpending=E2=80=9D= and a =E2=80=9Cready=E2=80=9D state that have different structures of their= representation. Multipart-core can be used to package either into the same= media type. >>>=20 >>> So while this may not be quite multipart/alternative, there are still >>> alternatives involved; they are just delievered in separate (streamed) >>> responses, as opposed to together in the same one. That is, the >>> alternation is over time and not at the choice of the recipient. >>=20 >> Multipart/alternative is recipient choice; scenario 3 is originator choic= e. >> The need for the =E2=80=9Cunion type=E2=80=9D alluded to in the introduct= ion may be idiosyncratic to CoAP: We expect an observed resource to go throu= gh states that all can be described by representations of the same content t= ype. Maybe that was not such a smart expectation, but the union type mechan= ism allows us to paper over that. In any case, there is no =E2=80=9Corder=E2= =80=9D or =E2=80=9Cchoice=E2=80=9D problem in this scenario. >>=20 >>>> I don=E2=80=99t think the third situation has semantics that differ fro= m the first two. >>>> You still get a bag with a representation in it (or maybe none). You s= till need to look into the bag to see what form it takes this time. Actuall= y, the second situation might also apply, so you might indeed get a couple r= epresentations in certain instances because that=E2=80=99s what best describ= es the resource at this particular time. >>>=20 >>> I think it's important to be clear about whether the sequencing within a= >>> given content array is or is not semantically relevant, >>=20 >> This is very much a function of the semantics that the request had on the= resource. If you get a mail with multipart/mixed in it, is it semantically= relevant that the service manual is first, then the user manual next among t= he attachments? >> The ordering may simply be alphabetic by name (and that may actually be w= hat the request originally said). >>=20 >>> and under what >>> conditions a recipient might only consult a subset of the array >>> (multipart/alternative) vs. assembling a conglomerate from components of= >>> different types (multipart/mixed). >>=20 >> That is now addressed. =20 >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 --Apple-Mail-B7409DC3-CEBD-4F21-861E-979305465A03 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi B= en,

On 26 Aug 2019, at 19:18, Benjamin Kaduk <<= a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu">kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 09:37= :10PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:
Hi Benjamin,

it took us a while to bett= er understand the concern and come up with text.

We have now submitted -04:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04
https://tools.= ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04.txt

[replying at the top since what I am tryin= g to say is essentially wrapping
all the inline notes togeth= er]

I can grudgingly accept the decision to= focus solely on a multipart/mixed
equivalent, though it rem= ains surpising to me that stopping there is
desired.  T= hat is, my reading of RFC 2046 is that the "mixed" subtype is a
catchall generic container that is usable as a fallback for when a
more-specific subtype is not supported/understood, but that direc= t use was
somewhat discouraged due to the more rich array of= semantics available
(noting that 2046 itself specifies seve= ral additional subtypes with the
"more-rich" semantics).

Having recently spent many hours coding handl= ing of different multipart/* media types in an email client, I don=E2=80=99t= think I agree. Yes, multipart/mixed is the fallback, but I don=E2=80=99t be= lieve that any document discourages its use. Certainly observing multipart/*= media types used in the wild, I only ever see multipart/mixed (the most com= mon), multipart/alternative, multipart/related, multipart/report and rarely m= ultipart/digest. multipart/report and multipart/digest have special structur= e and purposes, I don=E2=80=99t think they are relevant to draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct.

So it's surpri= sing that we stop with the generic
container, and do not mir= ror RFC 2046 in defining some more-rich subtypes
with precis= e semantics.

That said, within the context o= f only specifying a multipart/mixed
analogue, I still think w= e need to have some further discussion about the
applicabili= ty of those semantics to the listed use cases.  RFC 2046 is
<= span>quite clear that "mixed" is used when the body parts "need to be bundle= d in
a particular order".  The first use case listed, f= or audio snippets to be
played back in sequence or search re= sults, is a natural fit for
multipart/mixed.  The secon= d ("bag of representations"), however, includes
a note that "= the sequence in which these occur may not be relevant to the
application", which does not seem like a good fit for multipart/mixed:
depending on the specifics, either multipart/alternative or
multipart/parallel seem to be a better match for the stated sema= ntics.  

As far as I am concern= ed there is zero use of multipart/parallel in email or web. Even if it was a= good idea at the time, the market decided against it.

I t= hink multipart/mixed is used for both as an ordered sequence and as an unord= ered collection. Considering variety of UIs for handling multipart/mixed, I d= on=E2=80=99t think the difference matters significantly for people to care a= bout differences between 2 cases.

The
third listed use case (sender-= selects from a union) also doesn't feel like
a great fit, si= nce there is mostly just one "inner" type in a give
response= , and thus no ordering to be had; even in the (transient?) case
where a resource is represented by multiple of the potential output
formats, it's not clear that the ordering will always be importa= nt.  This
use case in particular feels like a very good= match for defining a new
subtype with precise, rich, semant= ics for "sender selects from union".

Finall= y, I would like to continue to push back on the sense that it is good=
to have the surrounding (request) context play a large role in int= erpreting
the semantics of the response.  While this is= of course unavoidable to some
extent, I am not sure that en= couraging it is wise.  Consider, for example,
JWT, whic= h is becoming quite popular, but also is having to react to quite
= real security threats due to the lack of explicit typing from the star= t.
The mere fact that I have to ask "can my access token be m= isused as an
identity token?" seems like a failure of the co= ntext-dependent semantics.
Granted, JWT is a cryptographic c= onstruct involving a signature from a
trusted authority, whi= ch is not the case here, but the general question of
whether= we want to place more weight on the two parties communicating
making the same implicit/heuristic-based choices about interpreting conte= nt
when we can easily make the semantics more explicit and r= ely less on all
implementations making the same choices seem= s to still apply.

Thanks,
<= /span>
Ben


On May 5, 2019, at 01:21, Benja= min Kaduk <kaduk@MIT.EDU> wrote:<= /span>

On Thu, May 02, 2019 at 03:11:25PM +020= 0, Carsten Bormann wrote:
Hi Ale= xey,

On May 2, 2019, at 14:40, Alexey= Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.= fm> wrote:

<= /blockquote>
Hi Benjamin,

On Thu, May 2, 2019, at 1:05 AM, Benjamin Kaduk via D= atatracker wrote:

<= /blockquote>
-------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
DISCUSS:
---------------------= -------------------------------------------------
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">

It's not clear to me that we're really specifying the semantics= of a
single medi= a-type.  The introduction discusses how we may want multiple
=
representations to appear i= n a sequence, potentially representing
<= /blockquote>
different content.
=

I think this is similar to multipart/mixed.

We were indeed trying to follow the mo= del of multipart/mixed.
<= span>This offers a number of embedded representations the sequence of which m= ay or may not be important.

Or we may have a set of related repre= sentations that
c= onceptually are the same content (but are they literally the same
=
resource, or related conten= t?).

<= /blockquote>
My understanding i= s that they are related contents.

There is no promise that the related items are conceptually the sa= me content.
The dif= ference between the first situation and the second one mainly is that the se= quence is not important in the second (i.e., we are using the sequence to de= scribe a bag).

And there is yet a third option -- one
that I'm not sure I fully= understand -- wherein the representation is
not important, but rather which format is chosen= of the several
p= ossibilities, to the extent that extreme compression of the
representation is possible, with the c= ompression just outputting the
format indicator.

<= /blockquote>
Hmm, I missed that. I think this is similar to multipart/alternativ= e

That wasn=E2=80=99t the= intention.

I think that a= nalogies to multipart/mixed and/or multipart/alternative
w= ould help the reviewer assess whether the document text succeeds at
describing the intended behavior (though it's not clear that using= such a
reference to attempt to define the behavior by ref= erence is a useful plan).

Pl= ease have a look at what we did =E2=80=94 we made it more explicit that the s= emantics are indeed refined by the request context, but that multipart/mixed= is our model here and multipart/alternative is outside the range that this m= edia type addresses.
=
=
The choice in the third situation mentioned i= n the introduction is made by the originator of the representation, not the r= eceiver.  The selected representation is still packaged in an applicati= on/multipart-core envelope so the media type does not need to diverge =E2=80= =94 it is essentially used as the (type!) union (a.k.a. choice) of the media= types that the application wants to be able to put in the envelope.<= br>

=
We may have painted ourselves into a corner i= n RFC 7641 with the mandate that the representations provided by an observab= le resource stay within the same media type (content-format) over time. &nbs= p;This makes it difficult in CoAP to observe a resource that alternates betw= een a =E2=80=9Cpending=E2=80=9D and a =E2=80=9Cready=E2=80=9D state that hav= e different structures of their representation.  Multipart-core can be u= sed to package either into the same media type.

So while this may not be quite multipart/alternative, t= here are still
alternatives involved; they are just deliev= ered in separate (streamed)
responses, as opposed to togeth= er in the same one.  That is, the
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
alternation is over= time and not at the choice of the recipient.

Multipart/alternative is recipient choice; scenario 3 is o= riginator choice.
The= need for the =E2=80=9Cunion type=E2=80=9D alluded to in the introduction ma= y be idiosyncratic to CoAP: We expect an observed resource to go through sta= tes that all can be described by representations of the same content type. &= nbsp;Maybe that was not such a smart expectation, but the union type mechani= sm allows us to paper over that.  In any case, there is no =E2=80=9Cord= er=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cchoice=E2=80=9D problem in this scenario.
=

I don=E2=80=99t think the third situation has semantics that differ from th= e first two.
You st= ill get a bag with a representation in it (or maybe none).  You still n= eed to look into the bag to see what form it takes this time.  Actually= , the second situation might also apply, so you might indeed get a couple re= presentations in certain instances because that=E2=80=99s what best describe= s the resource at this particular time.
=

I think it's important to be clear about whether the sequencing= within a
given content array is or is not semantically re= levant,
=
This is very much a f= unction of the semantics that the request had on the resource.  If you g= et a mail with multipart/mixed in it, is it semantically relevant that the s= ervice manual is first, then the user manual next among the attachments?
The ordering may simply b= e alphabetic by name (and that may actually be what the request originally s= aid).

and under= what
conditions a recipient might only consult a subset o= f the array
(multipart/alternative) vs. assembling a congl= omerate from components of
different types (multipart/mixe= d).

That is now addressed. &= nbsp;

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
=

<= /blockquote>
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Sat, 31 Aug 2019 06:46:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-49FE1651-FA80-44AD-A093-B274B3F7A788 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: <88A86206-D8D6-4B89-A1D0-A8F530779B59@fastmail.fm> Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 11:46:09 +0100 Cc: Carsten Bormann , The IESG , draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct@ietf.org, =?utf-8?Q?Jaime_Jim=C3=A9nez?= , core-chairs@ietf.org, core@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <155675554069.2851.9351849772053196736.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <459433ef-5cb5-4c3e-a32e-a5d063b1ccf0@www.fastmail.com> <20190504232153.GA19805@kduck.mit.edu> <20190826181801.GJ84368@kduck.mit.edu> <88A86206-D8D6-4B89-A1D0-A8F530779B59@fastmail.fm> To: Benjamin Kaduk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [core] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: core@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Constrained RESTful Environments \(CoRE\) Working Group list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:46:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail-49FE1651-FA80-44AD-A093-B274B3F7A788 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ben, > On 31 Aug 2019, at 11:39, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >=20 > Hi Ben, >=20 >> On 26 Aug 2019, at 19:18, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >>=20 >>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 09:37:10PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> Hi Benjamin, >>>=20 >>> it took us a while to better understand the concern and come up with tex= t. >>>=20 >>> We have now submitted -04: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04 >>> https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-multipart-ct-04.tx= t >>=20 >> [replying at the top since what I am trying to say is essentially wrappin= g >> all the inline notes together] >>=20 >> I can grudgingly accept the decision to focus solely on a multipart/mixed= >> equivalent, though it remains surpising to me that stopping there is >> desired. That is, my reading of RFC 2046 is that the "mixed" subtype is a= >> catchall generic container that is usable as a fallback for when a >> more-specific subtype is not supported/understood, but that direct use wa= s >> somewhat discouraged due to the more rich array of semantics available >> (noting that 2046 itself specifies several additional subtypes with the >> "more-rich" semantics). >=20 > Having recently spent many hours coding handling of different multipart/* m= edia types in an email client, I don=E2=80=99t think I agree. Yes, multipart= /mixed is the fallback, but I don=E2=80=99t believe that any document discou= rages its use. Certainly observing multipart/* media types used in the wild,= I only ever see multipart/mixed (the most common), multipart/alternative, m= ultipart/related, multipart/report and rarely multipart/digest. multipart/re= port and multipart/digest have special structure and purposes, I don=E2=80=99= t think they are relevant to draft-ietf-core-multipart-ct. >=20 >> So it's surprising that we stop with the generic >> container, and do not mirror RFC 2046 in defining some more-rich subtypes= >> with precise semantics. >>=20 >> That said, within the context of only specifying a multipart/mixed >> analogue, I still think we need to have some further discussion about the= >> applicability of those semantics to the listed use cases. RFC 2046 is >> quite clear that "mixed" is used when the body parts "need to be bundled i= n >> a particular order". The first use case listed, for audio snippets to be= >> played back in sequence or search results, is a natural fit for >> multipart/mixed. The second ("bag of representations"), however, include= s >> a note that "the sequence in which these occur may not be relevant to the= >> application", which does not seem like a good fit for multipart/mixed: >> depending on the specifics, either multipart/alternative or >> multipart/parallel seem to be a better match for the stated semantics. =20= >=20 > As far as I am concerned there is zero use of multipart/parallel in email o= r web. Even if it was a good idea at the time, the market decided against it= . >=20 > I think multipart/mixed is used for both as an ordered sequence and as an u= nordered collection. Considering variety of UIs for handling multipart/mixed= , I don=E2=80=99t think the difference matters significantly for people to c= are about differences between 2 cases. >=20 >> The >> third listed use case (sender-selects from a union) also doesn't feel lik= e >> a great fit, since there is mostly just one "inner" type in a give >> response, and thus no ordering to be had; even in the (transient?) case >> where a resource is represented by multiple of the potential output >> formats, it's not clear that the ordering will always be important. This= >> use case in particular feels like a very good match for defining a new >> subtype with precise, rich, semantics for "sender selects from union". I am ambivalent on this. It doesn=E2=80=99t match the multipart/alternative s= emantics (this case effectively just has 1 choice) and it is close enough to= other cases that I am not convinced that a new media type would be importan= t to implementors. Best Regards, Alexey >>=20 >> Finally, I would like to continue to push back on the sense that it is go= od >> to have the surrounding (request) context play a large role in interpreti= ng >> the semantics of the response. While this is of course unavoidable to so= me >> extent, I am not sure that encouraging it is wise. Consider, for example= , >> JWT, which is becoming quite popular, but also is having to react to quit= e >> real security threats due to the lack of explicit typing from the start. >> The mere fact that I have to ask "can my access token be misused as an >> identity token?" seems like a failure of the context-dependent semantics.= >> Granted, JWT is a cryptographic construct involving a signature from a >> trusted authority, which is not the case here, but the general question o= f >> whether we want to place more weight on the two parties communicating >> making the same implicit/heuristic-based choices about interpreting conte= nt >> when we can easily make the semantics more explicit and rely less on all >> implementations making the same choices seems to still apply. >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> Ben >>=20 >>=20 >>>> On May 5, 2019, at 01:21, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, May 02, 2019 at 03:11:25PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>>> Hi Alexey, >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On May 2, 2019, at 14:40, Alexey Melnikov wr= ote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Thu, May 2, 2019, at 1:05 AM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrot= e: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >>>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> It's not clear to me that we're really specifying the semantics of a= >>>>>>> single media-type. The introduction discusses how we may want multi= ple >>>>>>> representations to appear in a sequence, potentially representing >>>>>>> different content. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I think this is similar to multipart/mixed. >>>>>=20 >>>>> We were indeed trying to follow the model of multipart/mixed. >>>>> This offers a number of embedded representations the sequence of which= may or may not be important. >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Or we may have a set of related representations that >>>>>>> conceptually are the same content (but are they literally the same >>>>>>> resource, or related content?). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> My understanding is that they are related contents. >>>>>=20 >>>>> There is no promise that the related items are conceptually the same c= ontent. >>>>> The difference between the first situation and the second one mainly i= s that the sequence is not important in the second (i.e., we are using the s= equence to describe a bag). >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> And there is yet a third option -- one >>>>>>> that I'm not sure I fully understand -- wherein the representation i= s >>>>>>> not important, but rather which format is chosen of the several >>>>>>> possibilities, to the extent that extreme compression of the >>>>>>> representation is possible, with the compression just outputting the= >>>>>>> format indicator. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hmm, I missed that. I think this is similar to multipart/alternative >>>>>=20 >>>>> That wasn=E2=80=99t the intention. >>>>=20 >>>> I think that analogies to multipart/mixed and/or multipart/alternative >>>> would help the reviewer assess whether the document text succeeds at >>>> describing the intended behavior (though it's not clear that using such= a >>>> reference to attempt to define the behavior by reference is a useful pl= an). >>>=20 >>> Please have a look at what we did =E2=80=94 we made it more explicit tha= t the semantics are indeed refined by the request context, but that multipar= t/mixed is our model here and multipart/alternative is outside the range tha= t this media type addresses. >>>=20 >>>>> The choice in the third situation mentioned in the introduction is mad= e by the originator of the representation, not the receiver. The selected r= epresentation is still packaged in an application/multipart-core envelope so= the media type does not need to diverge =E2=80=94 it is essentially used as= the (type!) union (a.k.a. choice) of the media types that the application w= ants to be able to put in the envelope. >>>>>=20 >>>>> We may have painted ourselves into a corner in RFC 7641 with the manda= te that the representations provided by an observable resource stay within t= he same media type (content-format) over time. This makes it difficult in C= oAP to observe a resource that alternates between a =E2=80=9Cpending=E2=80=9D= and a =E2=80=9Cready=E2=80=9D state that have different structures of their= representation. Multipart-core can be used to package either into the same= media type. >>>>=20 >>>> So while this may not be quite multipart/alternative, there are still >>>> alternatives involved; they are just delievered in separate (streamed) >>>> responses, as opposed to together in the same one. That is, the >>>> alternation is over time and not at the choice of the recipient. >>>=20 >>> Multipart/alternative is recipient choice; scenario 3 is originator choi= ce. >>> The need for the =E2=80=9Cunion type=E2=80=9D alluded to in the introduc= tion may be idiosyncratic to CoAP: We expect an observed resource to go thro= ugh states that all can be described by representations of the same content t= ype. Maybe that was not such a smart expectation, but the union type mechan= ism allows us to paper over that. In any case, there is no =E2=80=9Corder=E2= =80=9D or =E2=80=9Cchoice=E2=80=9D problem in this scenario. >>>=20 >>>>> I don=E2=80=99t think the third situation has semantics that differ fr= om the first two. >>>>> You still get a bag with a representation in it (or maybe none). You s= till need to look into the bag to see what form it takes this time. Actuall= y, the second situation might also apply, so you might indeed get a couple r= epresentations in certain instances because that=E2=80=99s what best describ= es the resource at this particular time. >>>>=20 >>>> I think it's important to be clear about whether the sequencing within a= >>>> given content array is or is not semantically relevant, >>>=20 >>> This is very much a function of the semantics that the request had on th= e resource. If you get a mail with multipart/mixed in it, is it semanticall= y relevant that the service manual is first, then the user manual next among= the attachments? >>> The ordering may simply be alphabetic by name (and that may actually be w= hat the request originally said). >>>=20 >>>> and under what >>>> conditions a recipient might only consult a subset of the array >>>> (multipart/alternative) vs. assembling a conglomerate from components o= f >>>> different types (multipart/mixed). >>>=20 >>> That is now addressed. =20 >>>=20 >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>=20 --Apple-Mail-49FE1651-FA80-44AD-A093-B274B3F7A788 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi B= en,

On 31 Aug 2019, at 11:39, Alexey Melnikov <= aamelnikov@fastmail.fm> wro= te:

Hi Ben,

On 26 Aug 2019, at 19= :18, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu&g= t; wrote:

On W= ed, Aug 21, 2019 at 09:37:10PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:
Hi Benjamin,

i= t took us a while to better understand the concern and come up with text.

We have now submitted -04:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-co= re-multipart-ct-04
https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-core-multipart-= ct-04.txt

[replying at the= top since what I am trying to say is essentially wrapping
a= ll the inline notes together]

I can grudgin= gly accept the decision to focus solely on a multipart/mixed
equivalent, though it remains surpising to me that stopping there is=
desired.  That is, my reading of RFC 2046 is that the "mixed"= subtype is a
catchall generic container that is usable as a= fallback for when a
more-specific subtype is not supported/= understood, but that direct use was
somewhat discouraged due= to the more rich array of semantics available
(noting that 2= 046 itself specifies several additional subtypes with the
"m= ore-rich" semantics).

Having recently spen= t many hours coding handling of different multipart/* media types in an emai= l client, I don=E2=80=99t think I agree. Yes, multipart/mixed is the fallbac= k, but I don=E2=80=99t believe that any document discourages its use. Certai= nly observing multipart/* media types used in the wild, I only ever see mult= ipart/mixed (the most common), multipart/alternative, multipart/related, mul= tipart/report and rarely multipart/digest. multipart/report and multipart/di= gest have special structure and purposes, I don=E2=80=99t think they are rel= evant to draft= -ietf-core-multipart-ct.

So it's surprising that we stop with the generic
container, and do not mirror RFC 2046 in defining some more-rich subtypes
with precise semantics.

That= said, within the context of only specifying a multipart/mixed
analogue, I still think we need to have some further discussion about the=
applicability of those semantics to the listed use cases. &= nbsp;RFC 2046 is
quite clear that "mixed" is used when the b= ody parts "need to be bundled in
a particular order".  = The first use case listed, for audio snippets to be
played b= ack in sequence or search results, is a natural fit for
mult= ipart/mixed.  The second ("bag of representations"), however, includes<= /span>
a note that "the sequence in which these occur may not be re= levant to the
application", which does not seem like a good f= it for multipart/mixed:
depending on the specifics, either m= ultipart/alternative or
multipart/parallel seem to be a bett= er match for the stated semantics.  

=
As far as I am concerned there is zero use of multipart/parallel in em= ail or web. Even if it was a good idea at the time, the market decided again= st it.

I think multipart/mixed is used for both as an ord= ered sequence and as an unordered collection. Considering variety of UIs for= handling multipart/mixed, I don=E2=80=99t think the difference matters sign= ificantly for people to care about differences between 2 cases.

The
= third listed use case (sender-selects from a union) also doesn't feel like
a great fit, since there is mostly just one "inner" type in a= give
response, and thus no ordering to be had; even in the (= transient?) case
where a resource is represented by multiple= of the potential output
formats, it's not clear that the or= dering will always be important.  This
use case in part= icular feels like a very good match for defining a new
subty= pe with precise, rich, semantics for "sender selects from union".
=

I am ambiva= lent on this. It doesn=E2=80=99t match the multipart/alternative semantics (= this case effectively just has 1 choice) and it is close enough to other cas= es that I am not convinced that a new media type would be important to imple= mentors.

Best Regards,
Alexey

Finally, I would like to continue to push back o= n the sense that it is good
to have the surrounding (request= ) context play a large role in interpreting
the semantics of= the response.  While this is of course unavoidable to some
<= span>extent, I am not sure that encouraging it is wise.  Consider, for e= xample,
JWT, which is becoming quite popular, but also is ha= ving to react to quite
real security threats due to the lack= of explicit typing from the start.
The mere fact that I hav= e to ask "can my access token be misused as an
identity toke= n?" seems like a failure of the context-dependent semantics.
Granted, JWT is a cryptographic construct involving a signature from a
trusted authority, which is not the case here, but the general q= uestion of
whether we want to place more weight on the two p= arties communicating
making the same implicit/heuristic-base= d choices about interpreting content
when we can easily make= the semantics more explicit and rely less on all
implementa= tions making the same choices seems to still apply.
<= br>Thanks,

Ben


On May 5, 2019, at 01:21, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@MIT.EDU> wrote:

On T= hu, May 02, 2019 at 03:11:25PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:
Hi Alexey,
=

On May 2, 2019, at 14:40, Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm> wrote:
=

<= span>Hi Benjamin,

<= /blockquote>
On Thu, May 2, 20= 19, at 1:05 AM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote:

-------------------------------= ---------------------------------------
=
DISCUSS:
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

=
It's not clear to me that w= e're really specifying the semantics of a
single media-type.  The introduction discusses= how we may want multiple
<= /blockquote>
representations to appear in a sequence, potentially representing
=
different content.=
=

I think this is simil= ar to multipart/mixed.

W= e were indeed trying to follow the model of multipart/mixed.
This offers a number of embedded r= epresentations the sequence of which may or may not be important.
=

<= span>Or we may have a set of related representations that
conceptually are the same content (bu= t are they literally the same
resource, or related content?).

My understanding is that they are related contents.
=
There is no promise that t= he related items are conceptually the same content.
<= /blockquote>
The difference between the first situation a= nd the second one mainly is that the sequence is not important in the second= (i.e., we are using the sequence to describe a bag).

And the= re is yet a third option -- one
that I'm not sure I fully understand -- wherein the representat= ion is
not importa= nt, but rather which format is chosen of the several
=
possibilities, to the extent that extrem= e compression of the
representation is possible, with the compression just outputting the
format indicator.
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
Hmm, I missed that. I th= ink this is similar to multipart/alternative

=
That wasn=E2=80=99t the intention.

I think that analogies to multipart/mixed and/= or multipart/alternative
would help the reviewer assess wh= ether the document text succeeds at
describing the intende= d behavior (though it's not clear that using such a
<= /blockquote>
refere= nce to attempt to define the behavior by reference is a useful plan).=

Please have a look at what we did =E2= =80=94 we made it more explicit that the semantics are indeed refined by the= request context, but that multipart/mixed is our model here and multipart/a= lternative is outside the range that this media type addresses.

T= he choice in the third situation mentioned in the introduction is made by th= e originator of the representation, not the receiver.  The selected rep= resentation is still packaged in an application/multipart-core envelope so t= he media type does not need to diverge =E2=80=94 it is essentially used as t= he (type!) union (a.k.a. choice) of the media types that the application wan= ts to be able to put in the envelope.

We may have painted ourselves into a corner in RFC 7641 with the mandate th= at the representations provided by an observable resource stay within the sa= me media type (content-format) over time.  This makes it difficult in C= oAP to observe a resource that alternates between a =E2=80=9Cpending=E2=80=9D= and a =E2=80=9Cready=E2=80=9D state that have different structures of their= representation.  Multipart-core can be used to package either into the= same media type.

So while= this may not be quite multipart/alternative, there are still
alternatives involved; they are just delievered in separate (streamed)
responses, as opposed to together in the same one.  Th= at is, the
alternation is over time and not at the choice o= f the recipient.

Multipart/a= lternative is recipient choice; scenario 3 is originator choice.
<= /blockquote>
The need for the =E2=80=9Cunion t= ype=E2=80=9D alluded to in the introduction may be idiosyncratic to CoAP: We= expect an observed resource to go through states that all can be described b= y representations of the same content type.  Maybe that was not such a s= mart expectation, but the union type mechanism allows us to paper over that.=  In any case, there is no =E2=80=9Corder=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cchoice=E2= =80=9D problem in this scenario.

I don=E2=80=99t think the third s= ituation has semantics that differ from the first two.
You still get a bag with a representatio= n in it (or maybe none).  You still need to look into the bag to see wh= at form it takes this time.  Actually, the second situation might also a= pply, so you might indeed get a couple representations in certain instances b= ecause that=E2=80=99s what best describes the resource at this particular ti= me.

I think it's important= to be clear about whether the sequencing within a
given c= ontent array is or is not semantically relevant,

This is very much a function of the semantics that the r= equest had on the resource.  If you get a mail with multipart/mixed in i= t, is it semantically relevant that the service manual is first, then the us= er manual next among the attachments?
The ordering may simply be alphabetic by name (and that may= actually be what the request originally said).

and under what
conditions= a recipient might only consult a subset of the array
(mul= tipart/alternative) vs. assembling a conglomerate from components of<= br>
different types (multipart/mixed).

That is now addressed.  

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

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Sat, 31 Aug 2019 11:01:59 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: "core@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: MULTIPART-CT: Clarify scope Thread-Index: AdVf61mXlwiOtX4gQDGYsjW/PWSIDw== Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 11:01:59 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: fi-FI X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=christer.holmberg@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [79.134.118.162] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9550a7cf-1e7d-4740-dff3-08d72e02a53e x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:HE1PR07MB3260; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR07MB3260: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 014617085B x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(346002)(376002)(136003)(366004)(39860400002)(199004)(189003)(4744005)(5660300002)(66066001)(52536014)(256004)(44832011)(486006)(76116006)(66446008)(66556008)(66476007)(66946007)(64756008)(790700001)(6116002)(3846002)(26005)(186003)(6506007)(102836004)(81166006)(71190400001)(476003)(71200400001)(81156014)(7696005)(1730700003)(6916009)(8936002)(8676002)(9326002)(74316002)(86362001)(316002)(33656002)(14454004)(25786009)(99286004)(966005)(55016002)(236005)(54896002)(5640700003)(2906002)(2351001)(53936002)(9686003)(6306002)(6436002)(2501003)(7736002)(478600001)(606006); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, There is an issue discussed on GitHub, that I think is useful to clarify on= the list. It has been claimed that the multipart mechanism is not specific to CoAP, b= ut it is generic. So far so good. Based on that claim, I have suggested that we explicitly indicate that, whi= le the mechanism is generic, the multipart-ct draft was written with CoAP i= n mind, and that other specifications may have to define how to use the mul= tipart mechanism with other protocols. There may be no such other protocols= today, but maybe tomorrow. I have also suggested that it should be indicated that the example is for C= oAP usage. https://github.com/core-wg/multipart-ct/pull/27 Thanks! Regards, Christer --_000_HE1PR07MB3161B7519312CF59951050CB93BC0HE1PR07MB3161eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

There is an issue discussed on GitHub, that I think = is useful to clarify on the list.

 

It has been claimed that the multipart mechanism is = not specific to CoAP, but it is generic. So far so good.

 

Based on that claim, I have suggested that we explic= itly indicate that, while the mechanism is generic, the multipart-ct draft = was written with CoAP in mind, and that other specifications may have to de= fine how to use the multipart mechanism with other protocols. There may be no such other protocols today, but mayb= e tomorrow.

 

I have also suggested that it should be indicated th= at the example is for CoAP usage.

 

https://github.com/core-wg/multipart-ct/pull/27

 

Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

Christer

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