From david.black@emc.com Wed Feb 1 06:32:58 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A45111E815D for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2012 06:32:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.962, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_62=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v+Yuju2yNWQJ for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2012 06:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexforward.lss.emc.com (mexforward.lss.emc.com [128.222.32.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E7D11E811B for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2012 06:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from hop04-l1d11-si02.isus.emc.com (HOP04-L1D11-SI02.isus.emc.com [10.254.111.55]) by mexforward.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q11EWqOK022255 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Feb 2012 09:32:53 -0500 Received: from mailhub.lss.emc.com (mailhub.lss.emc.com [10.254.221.253]) by hop04-l1d11-si02.isus.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 1 Feb 2012 09:32:39 -0500 Received: from mxhub01.corp.emc.com (mxhub01.corp.emc.com [10.254.141.103]) by mailhub.lss.emc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id q11EWbhL022431; Wed, 1 Feb 2012 09:32:38 -0500 Received: from mx14a.corp.emc.com ([169.254.1.94]) by mxhub01.corp.emc.com ([10.254.141.103]) with mapi; Wed, 1 Feb 2012 09:32:37 -0500 From: To: , , Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 09:32:35 -0500 Thread-Topic: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt Thread-Index: AczgmucRAFiCZr/TQKayo9XONlILwAAUz8QQ Message-ID: <7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AD13B16A@MX14A.corp.emc.com> References: <201202010434.q114YnPX010960@mse01.zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <201202010434.q114YnPX010960@mse01.zte.com.cn> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AD13B16AMX14Acorpemcc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-EMM-MHVC: 1 Cc: dc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt X-BeenThere: dc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Data Center Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 14:32:58 -0000 --_000_7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AD13B16AMX14Acorpemcc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between the d= ifferent vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not exist. In other words, there's no work for the IETF to do because interoperability= is not a goal. What have I missed? Thanks, --David From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of liu.bin= 21@zte.com.cn Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:57 PM To: narten@us.ibm.com; vumip1@gmail.com Cc: dc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt Thomas, thank you for your comments! About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between the dif= ferent vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not exist. As you say, "let's be realistic", our intention is to improve the fl= exibility of VM migration, as well as the breadth of applications under the premise of market heavyweights are not opposed to= it.In order to achieve these goals, analyse possible problems, discuss and= resolve these problems, such as: VM migration is due to a non-public secto= r energy-efficient needs, rather than to public access without interruption= , or business needs of the user's desktop migration, this demand may exist = within a same service provider, or you say a same vender with mixed network= , for example: With the promotion of IPv6 technology, the existing IPv4 networks will be m= ore and more IPv6 hosts, these applications driven a series of tunnel technologies to provide solutions, such as: 6to4 tunnel = technology, ISATAP tunnel technology, and so on. Virtual machine migration technology will also be the basis of these networ= k environments,in the transition network using tunneling transition techniq= ue, the connections between the subnets and the backbone network are achiev= ed through the tunneling gateway. In the IPv4/IPv6 transition period, a var= iety of tunnels coexist. The establishment of the tunnel varies with differ= ent gateways. The traditional tunneling gateway only establishes tunnels fo= r communication with the same type of gateway, the different types of tradi= tional tunneling gateway cannot communicate with each other, which cannot m= eet the requirements of VPN communications in the transition period. A mult= i-tunnel VPN gateway is used to solve the problem of establishing the tunne= l between the heterogeneous gateways. Many thanks for guidance Regards, Bin Liu liu.bin21@zte.com.cn Richard.BoHan.liu@gmail.com -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is = solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is co= nfidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and ar= e not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended = solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. = If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of th= e message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual = sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. --_000_7C4DFCE962635144B8FAE8CA11D0BF1E05AD13B16AMX14Acorpemcc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> About VM migratio= n in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between the different vender(or = SPs), so your concerns may not  exist.

 

In other words, there̵= 7;s no work for the IETF to do because interoperability is not a goal. = ; What have I missed?

 

Thanks,
--David

From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf= Of liu.bin21@zte.com.cn
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:5= 7 PM
To: narten@us.ibm.com; vumip1@gmail.com
Cc: dc@iet= f.org
Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt

 


Thomas, thank you for your comm= ents!

About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly bet= ween the different vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not
exist. As you= say, "let's be realistic", our intention is to improve the flexi= bility of VM migration, as well as the breadth
of applications under the = premise of market heavyweights are not opposed to it.In order to achieve th= ese goals, analyse possible problems, discuss and resolve these problems, s= uch as: VM migration is due to a non-public sector energy-efficient needs, = rather than to public access without interruption, or business needs of the= user's desktop migration, this demand may exist within a same service prov= ider, or you say a same vender with mixed network, for example:
=
With = the promotion of IPv6 technology, the existing IPv4 networks will be more a= nd more IPv6 hosts, these applications driven
a series of tunnel technolo= gies to provide solutions, such as: 6to4 tunnel technology, ISATAP tunnel t= echnology, and so on.
Virtual machine migration technology will also be t= he basis of these network environments,in the transition network using tunn= eling transition technique, the connections between the subnets and the bac= kbone network are achieved through the tunneling gateway. In the IPv4/IPv6 = transition period, a variety of tunnels coexist. The establishment of the t= unnel varies with different gateways. The traditional tunneling gateway onl= y establishes tunnels for communication with the same type of gateway, the = different types of traditional tunneling gateway cannot communicate with ea= ch other, which cannot meet the requirements of VPN communications in the t= ransition period. A multi-tunnel VPN gateway is used to solve the problem o= f establishing the tunnel between the heterogeneous gateways.
Many th= anks for guidance

Regards,

Bin Liu

liu.bin21@zte.com.cn=
Richard.BoHan.liu@gmail.com 

 =

--------------------------------------------------------
ZTE Information Security Notice: The =
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From tboyes@gmail.com  Wed Feb  1 07:45:51 2012
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:45:49 -0500
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From: Truman Boyes 
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Cc: narten@us.ibm.com, dc@ietf.org, vumip1@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
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On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:56 PM,  wrote:

>
> Thomas, thank you for your comments!
>
> About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between the
> different vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not
> exist. As you say, "let's be realistic", our intention is to improve the
> flexibility of VM migration, as well as the breadth
> of applications under the premise of market heavyweights are not opposed
> to it.In order to achieve these goals, analyse possible problems, discuss
> and resolve these problems, such as: VM migration is due to a non-public
> sector energy-efficient needs, rather than to public access without
> interruption, or business needs of the user's desktop migration, this
> demand may exist within a same service provider, or you say a same vender
> with mixed network, for example:
>
> With the promotion of IPv6 technology, the existing IPv4 networks will be
> more and more IPv6 hosts, these applications driven
> a series of tunnel technologies to provide solutions, such as: 6to4 tunnel
> technology, ISATAP tunnel technology, and so on.
> Virtual machine migration technology will also be the basis of these
> network environments,in the transition network using tunneling transition
> technique, the connections between the subnets and the backbone network are
> achieved through the tunneling gateway. In the IPv4/IPv6 transition period,
> a variety of tunnels coexist. The establishment of the tunnel varies with
> different gateways. The traditional tunneling gateway only establishes
> tunnels for communication with the same type of gateway, the different
> types of traditional tunneling gateway cannot communicate with each other,
> which cannot meet the requirements of VPN communications in the transition
> period. A multi-tunnel VPN gateway is used to solve the problem of
> establishing the tunnel between the heterogeneous gateways.
>
> Many thanks for guidance
>
> Regards,
>
> Bin Liu
>
> liu.bin21@zte.com.cn
> Richard.BoHan.liu@gmail.com
>
>
>
I understand the first section in the above comments regarding virtual
machines. In the context of IPv6 adoption for virtual machines or rather
generically in data centers, I see native IPv6-only or dual stack as being
the choice for numbering VMs. The tunneling technologies mentioned (6to4,
ISATAP, etc) should be kept out of data centers.

-- 
--truman

--0015174c3d684c49f104b7e8f9c7
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On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:56 PM,  <liu.bin21@zte.com.cn> wrote:



Thomas, thank you for your comments!




About VM migration in the draft, we
did not demand forcibly between the different vender(or SPs), so your conce=
rns
may not 

exist. As you say, "let's be realist=
ic",
our intention is to improve the flexibility of VM migration, as well as
the breadth 

of applications under the premise of
market heavyweights are not opposed to it.In order to achieve these goals,
analyse possible problems, discuss and resolve these problems, such as:
VM migration is due to a non-public sector energy-efficient needs, rather
than to public access without interruption, or business needs of the user&#=
39;s
desktop migration, this demand may exist within a same service provider,
or you say a same vender with mixed network, for example:



With the promotion of IPv6 technology,
the existing IPv4 networks will be more and more IPv6 hosts, these applicat=
ions
driven 

a series of tunnel technologies to provide
solutions, such as: 6to4 tunnel technology, ISATAP tunnel technology, and
so on. 

Virtual machine migration technology
will also be the basis of these network environments,in the transition
network using tunneling transition technique, the connections between the
subnets and the backbone network are achieved through the tunneling gateway=
.
In the IPv4/IPv6 transition period, a variety of tunnels coexist. The estab=
lishment
of the tunnel varies with different gateways. The traditional tunneling
gateway only establishes tunnels for communication with the same type of
gateway, the different types of traditional tunneling gateway cannot commun=
icate
with each other, which cannot meet the requirements of VPN communications
in the transition period. A multi-tunnel VPN gateway is used to solve the
problem of establishing the tunnel between the heterogeneous gateways.



Many thanks for guidance



Regards,



Bin Liu



liu.bin21@zte.com.cn

Richard.BoHan.liu@gmail.com




I understand the fi=
rst section in the above comments regarding virtual machines. In the contex=
t of IPv6 adoption for virtual machines or rather generically in data cente=
rs, I see native IPv6-only or dual stack as being the choice for numbering =
VMs. The tunneling technologies mentioned (6to4, ISATAP, etc) should be kep=
t out of data centers.


=A0
-- 
--truman



--0015174c3d684c49f104b7e8f9c7--

From kreeger@cisco.com  Mon Jan 30 11:40:37 2012
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:40:36 -0800
From: Larry Kreeger 
To: 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: Network Virtualization Overlay Control Plane Requirements posted
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To: nvo3 mailing list
Bcc: l2vpn, l3vpn, dc, armd, vpn4dc mailing lists

Hi everyone,

I have recently posted a first draft of the Control Plane requirements for
Network Virtualization Overlays.

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-kreeger-nvo3-overlay-cp-00.txt

This draft is a follow-up to draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-01
( http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-01
) which makes the case for overlay networks in data centers (not restricted
to L2 over L3) and the need for control plane solutions.

If you have not read draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-01, I
highly suggest reading it first because the posted control plane reqs
document picks up where it left off.

Since the posted draft is a followup to
draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-01 , and there is already an
NVO3 mailing list, please join and post any discussion and/or comments to
nvo3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3

Thank you,
Larry Kreeger

--B_3410768436_38387553
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Network Virtualization Overlay Control Plane Requirements posted</TI=
TLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>To: nvo3 mailing list<BR>
Bcc: l2vpn, l3vpn, dc, armd, vpn4dc mailing lists<BR>
<BR>
Hi everyone,<BR>
<BR>
I have recently posted a first draft of the Control Plane requirements for =
Network Virtualization Overlays.  <BR>
<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-kreeger-nvo3-overlay-cp-00.txt">http:=
//www.ietf.org/id/draft-kreeger-nvo3-overlay-cp-00.txt</a><BR>
<BR>
This draft is a follow-up to draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-01=
 ( <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-sta=
tement-01">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-stat=
ement-01</a> ) which makes the case for overlay networks in data centers (no=
t restricted to L2 over L3) and the need for control plane solutions.<BR>
<BR>
If you have not read draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-statement-01, I high=
ly suggest reading it first because the posted control plane reqs document p=
icks up where it left off.<BR>
<BR>
Since the posted draft is a followup to draft-narten-nvo3-overlay-problem-s=
tatement-01 , and there is already an NVO3 mailing list, please join and pos=
t any discussion and/or comments to <a href=3D"nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a=
><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/nvo3</a><BR>
<BR>
Thank you,<BR>
Larry Kreeger</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3410768436_38387553--


From yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn  Wed Feb  1 17:08:07 2012
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Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; DIRECTION: ltr; COLOR: #000000;=
 FONT-SIZE: 16px">
<div>Dear Mr. Yu (apologies if this is not the proper form of addressing),</=
div>
<div><font face=3D"times new roman"></font> </div>
<div><font face=3D"times new roman">Managing MAC addresses allocated to VMs=
 in a DC may be a worthy objective.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"times new roman">But I wonder if it comes under the purvi=
ew of the IETF.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"times new roman"></font> </div>
<div><font face=3D"times new roman">Could you please elaborate?</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"times new roman"></font> </div>
<div><font face=3D"times new roman">Regards,</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"times new roman">    Sasha</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"=
></font> </div>
<div style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr" id=3D"divRpF889215">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<font color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><b>From:</b> dc-bounces@i=
etf.org [dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn [yu.jinghai=
@zte.com.cn]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> dc@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC<br=
>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Arial">Hi All:</font> <br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Arial">   I wonder whether it is necessar=
y to manage mac address in DC.</font>
<br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Arial">As you know,VM's mac is randomly generated.<=
/font> <br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Arial">The risk of mac conflict is increasing with=
  the amount of VMs in DC.</font>
<br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Arial">If there is a method to auto manage and allo=
cate mac address,the risk maybe avoid.</font>
<br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Arial">That method may facilitate the operator to c=
ontrol network easily and other available benefits.</font>
<br>
<font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
</font><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial"><br>
<br>
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<table width=3D"100%">
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<td colspan=3D"2"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial"><b>Chinese Name=A3=BAYu Ji=
ngHai </b></font><font color=3D"#800000" size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial"><b><u>=D3=
=F7=BE=B4=BA=A3
</u></b></font><br>
<font color=3D"#800000" size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial"><b>English name=A3=BA<u>Fi=
sher yu</u></b></font>
<br>
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial">Bearer Network Product Pre-research Departme=
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=B7=A2=CC=E5=CF=B5</b></font> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan=3D"2"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial">No.50 Ruanjiandadao Yuhuat=
ai District Nanjing,
<br>
P.R.China, 210012<br>
Tel:+86-025-88014226<br>
Fax:+86-025-88014226<br>
Email:yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn </font></td>
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<font size=3D"1" face=3D"Arial"> </font> </div>
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From narten@us.ibm.com  Thu Feb  2 05:47:41 2012
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Comments: In-reply-to yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn message dated "Thu, 02 Feb 2012 09:05:17 +0800."
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 08:47:34 -0500
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn writes:


>
>    I wonder whether it is necessary to manage mac address in DC.
> As you know,VM's mac is randomly generated.
> The risk of mac conflict is increasing with  the amount of VMs in DC.
> If there is a method to auto manage and allocate mac address,the
>    risk maybe avoid. 
> That method may facilitate the operator to control network easily
>    and other available benefits. 

One straightforward way to mitigate C-MAC conflicts is via
encapsulations, whether through something like SPB-M or
NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE.

Do such approaches not address the problem sufficiently?

Thomas


From narten@us.ibm.com  Thu Feb  2 07:11:14 2012
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Comments: In-reply-to Lizhong Jin <lizho.jin@gmail.com> message dated "Thu, 02 Feb 2012 22:47:06 +0800."
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Lizhong Jin <lizho.jin@gmail.com> writes:

> The VMs connected by SPB-M or NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE will still reside in one L2
> network,

But those L2 networks are generally scoped to only include the VMs of one
tenant/customer. So a) the number of VMs is smallish (not the entire
data center), and b) any collisions will have been caused by the tenant
and only impact the tenant (not other tenants).

I'm not saying address collisions are  never a problem, but the above
reduces the frequency and limits the impact.

> and the VMs MAC will still conflict if have same MAC address. VM
> MAC confliction could not be mitigated or solved by these mechanism if I
> understand correctly.

Overlay approaches hide client/customer MACs inside a second, outer
header. Thus, if two different tenants use the same VM MAC address,
that collision is not visible within the datacenter, because the data
center network only uses the addresses in the outer header.

Thomas


From tboyes@gmail.com  Thu Feb  2 07:50:03 2012
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 10:50:00 -0500
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To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Lizhong Jin <lizho.jin@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > The VMs connected by SPB-M or NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE will still reside in one
> L2
> > network,
>
> But those L2 networks are generally scoped to only include the VMs of one
> tenant/customer. So a) the number of VMs is smallish (not the entire
> data center), and b) any collisions will have been caused by the tenant
> and only impact the tenant (not other tenants).
>
> I'm not saying address collisions are  never a problem, but the above
> reduces the frequency and limits the impact.
>
> > and the VMs MAC will still conflict if have same MAC address. VM
> > MAC confliction could not be mitigated or solved by these mechanism if I
> > understand correctly.
>
> Overlay approaches hide client/customer MACs inside a second, outer
> header. Thus, if two different tenants use the same VM MAC address,
> that collision is not visible within the datacenter, because the data
> center network only uses the addresses in the outer header.
>
> Thomas
>
>
The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstances in
DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, or
co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so
machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to
have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that this
group wishes to evaluate options to solve?

Kind regards,
--Truman

--bcaec52be5771fc85d04b7fd26ae
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On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Thomas Narten <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:narten@us.ibm.com">narten@us.ibm.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Lizhong Jin <<a href=3D"mailto:lizho.jin@gmail.com">lizho.jin@gmail.com<=
/a>> writes:<br>
<br>
> The VMs connected by SPB-M or NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE will still reside in on=
e L2<br>
> network,<br>
<br>
But those L2 networks are generally scoped to only include the VMs of one<b=
r>
tenant/customer. So a) the number of VMs is smallish (not the entire<br>
data center), and b) any collisions will have been caused by the tenant<br>
and only impact the tenant (not other tenants).<br>
<br>
I'm not saying address collisions are =A0never a problem, but the above=
<br>
reduces the frequency and limits the impact.<br>
<br>
> and the VMs MAC will still conflict if have same MAC address. VM<br>
> MAC confliction could not be mitigated or solved by these mechanism if=
 I<br>
> understand correctly.<br>
<br>
Overlay approaches hide client/customer MACs inside a second, outer<br>
header. Thus, if two different tenants use the same VM MAC address,<br>
that collision is not visible within the datacenter, because the data<br>
center network only uses the addresses in the outer header.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
Thomas<br>
<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div>The L2 separation=
 between multiple tenants is true in most circumstances in DCs, but in comm=
odity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, or co-location) there=
 is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so machines/instances ar=
e grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to have virtual MAC overlap=
s on these segments. Is this something that this group wishes to evaluate o=
ptions to solve?</div>
<div><br></div>Kind regards,<br>--Truman<br><br>

--bcaec52be5771fc85d04b7fd26ae--

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Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 10:55:07 -0500
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com> writes:

> The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstances in
> DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, or
> co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so
> machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to
> have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that this
> group wishes to evaluate options to solve?

IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse.

Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and
whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?

I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are
their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at?

Thomas


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On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstances
> in
> > DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, or
> > co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so
> > machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to
> > have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that this
> > group wishes to evaluate options to solve?
>
> IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse.
>
> Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and
> whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?
>
> I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are
> their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at?
>
> Thomas
>
>
In the VPS/VM world,  I would say it's not a significant issue because
there are single entities (Organizations) that manage the MAC addresses.
Typically software would just increment the virtual MACs, and this does not
require external protocols to ensure uniqueness. If there are many
provisioning systems that manage VMs on the same network segment then they
will need to keep their database in sync.

-- 
--truman

--0015174be2e2f8a19f04b7ff3e65
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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas =
Narten <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:narten@us.ibm.com">narten@us=
.ibm.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">Truman Boyes <<a href=3D"mailto:tboyes@gmail.com">tboy=
es@gmail.com</a>> writes:<br>
<br>
> The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstanc=
es in<br>
> DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, =
or<br>
> co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, s=
o<br>
> machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible t=
o<br>
> have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that th=
is<br>
> group wishes to evaluate options to solve?<br>
<br>
</div>IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse.<br>
<br>
Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and<br>
whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?<br>
<br>
I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are<br>
their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at?<br=
>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Thomas<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br>In the VPS/VM world, =A0I would say it=
's not a significant issue because there are single entities (Organizat=
ions) that manage the MAC addresses. Typically software would just incremen=
t the virtual MACs, and this does not require external protocols to ensure =
uniqueness. If there are many provisioning systems that manage VMs on the s=
ame network segment then they will need to keep their database in sync.=A0<=
br clear=3D"all">
<div><br></div>-- <br>--truman<br><br>

--0015174be2e2f8a19f04b7ff3e65--

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Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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In a virtualized environment MAC addresses are not totally random generated. 
There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/controller(s) allocating the 
MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the same MAC 
address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope of that 
management/controller administration. There are some exceptions of course 
(a) MAC address exhaustion under a given OUI category (b) manual 
copy/cloning of VMs and powering on them using standalone management 
entities (c) VMs that use MAC address override for legitimate reasons 
[because else things like licensing software breaks]. There are some 
mechanisms in place to address (a), but (b) and (c) requires co-operation at 
the management-entity/controllers. 

Mallik 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com> 
To: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com> 
Cc: "yu jinghai" <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin" <lizho.jin@gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:20:07 AM 
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC 




On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Narten < narten@us.ibm.com > wrote: 



Truman Boyes < tboyes@gmail.com > writes: 

> The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstances in 
> DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, or 
> co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so 
> machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to 
> have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that this 
> group wishes to evaluate options to solve? 

IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse. 

Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and 
whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient? 

I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are 
their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at? 

Thomas 




In the VPS/VM world, I would say it's not a significant issue because there are single entities (Organizations) that manage the MAC addresses. Typically software would just increment the virtual MACs, and this does not require external protocols to ensure uniqueness. If there are many provisioning systems that manage VMs on the same network segment then they will need to keep their database in sync. 


-- 
--truman 


_______________________________________________ 
dc mailing list 
dc@ietf.org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc 


------=_Part_684938_1721942573.1328210516418
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D'text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><=
div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'=
>In a virtualized environment MAC addresses are not totally random generate=
d. <br>There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/controller(s) allocatin=
g the <br>MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the sam=
e MAC <br>address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope =
of that <br>management/controller administration. There are some exceptions=
 of course <br>(a) MAC address exhaustion under a given OUI category  =
(b) manual <br>copy/cloning of VMs and powering on them using standalone ma=
nagement <br>entities (c) VMs that use MAC address override for legitimate =
reasons <br>[because else things like licensing software breaks].  The=
re are some <br>mechanisms in place to address (a), but (b) and (c) require=
s co-operation at <br>the management-entity/controllers.<br><br>Mallik<br><=
br><hr id=3D"zwchr"><div style=3D"color:#000;font-weight:normal;font-style:=
normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com><br><b>To: </b=
>"Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com><br><b>Cc: </b>"yu jinghai" <y=
u.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin" <lizho.jin@gmail.co=
m><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:20:07 AM<br><b>Subject:=
 </b>Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC<br><br><=
br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas N=
arten <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:narten@us.ibm.com" target=3D"=
_blank">narten@us.ibm.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">Truman Boyes <<a href=3D"mailto:tboyes@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">tboyes@gmail.com</a>> writes:<br>
<br>
> The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstanc=
es in<br>
> DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, =
or<br>
> co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, s=
o<br>
> machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible t=
o<br>
> have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that th=
is<br>
> group wishes to evaluate options to solve?<br>
<br>
</div>IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse.<br>
<br>
Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and<br>
whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?<br>
<br>
I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are<br>
their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at?<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Thomas<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br>In the VPS/VM world,  I would say=
 it's not a significant issue because there are single entities (Organizati=
ons) that manage the MAC addresses. Typically software would just increment=
 the virtual MACs, and this does not require external protocols to ensure u=
niqueness. If there are many provisioning systems that manage VMs on the sa=
me network segment then they will need to keep their database in sync. =
;<br clear=3D"all">
<div><br></div>-- <br>--truman<br><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>dc mailing list<br>d=
c@ietf.org<br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc<br></div><br></div><=
/body></html>
------=_Part_684938_1721942573.1328210516418--

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From: "Pat Thaler" <pthaler@broadcom.com>
To: "Mallik Mahalingam" <mallik@vmware.com>, "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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From mallik@vmware.com  Thu Feb  2 23:15:27 2012
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 23:15:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Mallik Mahalingam <mallik@vmware.com>
To: yu jinghai <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>
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------=_Part_716819_890029116.1328253325252
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Virtual Center [VMware management software] uses combination of one of the =
OUI assigned to VMware and Virtual Center ID [which can be configured] to g=
enerate MAC address with in a range for VM's use. It ensures that MAC addre=
ss assigned to VMs that are managed by it gets non overlapping MAC address.=
=20

Mallik=20

----- Original Message -----

From: "yu jinghai" <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>=20
To: "Mallik Mahalingam" <mallik@vmware.com>=20
Cc: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>, "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com>,=
 dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin" <lizho.jin@gmail.com>=20
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:08:39 PM=20
Subject: [dc] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re: Requirement for a method to manage ma=
c address in DC=20


Hi Mallik:=20
I learned about that Xen generate MAC address by an algorithm base the time=
stamp.=20
I don't know well about other virtualization platform.=20
As you say that:=20
> There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/controller(s) allocating the=
=20
> MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the same MAC=20
> address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope of that=
=20
> management/controller administration.=20

why does it work only within the scope of that management/controller admini=
stration?=20
How do VMs get the MAC addresses?=20
Could you please elaborate?=20


>-----------------------------------------<=20
=E2=95=AD=E2=8C=92=E2=95=AE=C2=A4 Innovation change=20
the world=20
=E2=95=AD=E2=95=AD =E2=8C=92=E2=95=AE =E2=97=8F=E2=95=AD=E2=97=8B=E2=95=AE=
=20
=E2=95=B0 ----=E2=95=AF /=E2=96=88=E2=88=A8=E2=96=88\=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=E2=88=8F~~=E2=88=8F~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=20
My nickname: Fisher Yu=20
>----------------------------------------<=20

Mallik Mahalingam <mallik@vmware.com> =E5=86=99=E4=BA=8E 2012-02-03 03:21:5=
6:=20

> In a virtualized environment MAC addresses are not totally random generat=
ed.=20
> There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/controller(s) allocating the=
=20
> MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the same MAC=20
> address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope of that=
=20
> management/controller administration. There are some exceptions of course=
=20
> (a) MAC address exhaustion under a given OUI category (b) manual=20
> copy/cloning of VMs and powering on them using standalone management=20
> entities (c) VMs that use MAC address override for legitimate reasons=20
> [because else things like licensing software breaks]. There are some=20
> mechanisms in place to address (a), but (b) and (c) requires co-operation=
 at=20
> the management-entity/controllers.=20
>=20
> Mallik=20
>=20

> From: "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com>=20
> To: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>=20
> Cc: "yu jinghai" <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin"=20
> <lizho.jin@gmail.com>=20
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:20:07 AM=20
> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC=20
>=20
>=20

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:=
=20
> Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com> writes:=20
>=20
> > The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstance=
s in=20
> > DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, o=
r=20
> > co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so=
=20
> > machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to=
=20
> > have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that thi=
s=20
> > group wishes to evaluate options to solve?=20

> IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse.=20
>=20
> Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and=20
> whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?=20
>=20
> I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are=20
> their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at?=20
>=20
> Thomas=20

>=20
> In the VPS/VM world, I would say it's not a significant issue=20
> because there are single entities (Organizations) that manage the=20
> MAC addresses. Typically software would just increment the virtual=20
> MACs, and this does not require external protocols to ensure=20
> uniqueness. If there are many provisioning systems that manage VMs=20
> on the same network segment then they will need to keep their=20
> database in sync.=20
>=20
> --=20
> --truman=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________=20
> dc mailing list=20
> dc@ietf.org=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc=20
_______________________________________________=20
dc mailing list=20
dc@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc=20


------=_Part_716819_890029116.1328253325252
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D'text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><=
div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'=
>Virtual Center [VMware management software] uses combination of one of the=
 OUI assigned to VMware and Virtual Center ID  [which can be configure=
d] to generate  MAC address with in a range for VM's use. It ensures t=
hat MAC address assigned to VMs that are managed by it gets non overlapping=
 MAC address.<br><br>Mallik<br><br><hr id=3D"zwchr"><div style=3D"color:#00=
0;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><b>From: </b>"yu jinghai" <yu.j=
inghai@zte.com.cn><br><b>To: </b>"Mallik Mahalingam" <mallik@vmware.c=
om><br><b>Cc: </b>"Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>, "Truman Boy=
es" <tboyes@gmail.com>, dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin" <lizho.jin@gmai=
l.com><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:08:39 PM<br><b>Subj=
ect: </b>[dc] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re:  Requirement for a method to man=
age mac address in DC<br><br>
<br><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">Hi Mallik:</font>
<br><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">        I
learned about that Xen generate MAC address by </font><font face=3D"Times N=
ew Roman" size=3D"3" color=3D"#313131">an
algorithm base the timestamp.</font>
<br><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3" color=3D"#313131">I don't kno=
w well
about other </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3" color=3D"#2f2f=
2f">virtualization
platform.</font>
<br><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3" color=3D"#313131">  &nbs=
p;  
  As you say that: </font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2" color=
=3D"#313131"> 
</font>
<br><font size=3D"2"><tt>> There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/=
controller(s)
allocating the <br>
> MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the same
MAC <br>
> address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope of
that <br>
> management/controller administration.</tt></font>
<br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2" color=3D"#313131">    &n=
bsp;  
</font>
<br><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3" color=3D"#313131">why does it=
 work
only </font><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">within the scope of t=
hat
management/controller administration?</font>
<br><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">How do VMs get the MAC addres=
ses?</font>
<br><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">Could you please elaborate?</=
font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">>------------------------------=
-----------<<br>
=E2=95=AD=E2=8C=92=E2=95=AE=C2=A4=E3=80=80=E3=80=80=E3=80=80=E3=80=80=E3=80=
=80     Innovation change <br>
                    
     the world  <br>
=E2=95=AD=E2=95=AD =E2=8C=92=E2=95=AE        =E2=97=8F=
=E2=95=AD=E2=97=8B=E2=95=AE=E3=80=80  <br>
=E2=95=B0 ----=E2=95=AF       /=E2=96=88=E2=88=A8=E2=96=88\ =
=E3=80=80<br>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=E2=88=8F~~=E2=88=8F~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
           My nickname: Fisher Yu<br>
>----------------------------------------<</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2"><tt>Mallik Mahalingam <mallik@vmware.com> =E5=86=
=99=E4=BA=8E
2012-02-03 03:21:56:<br>
<br>
> In a virtualized environment MAC addresses are not totally random
generated. <br>
> There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/controller(s) allocating
the <br>
> MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the same
MAC <br>
> address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope of
that <br>
> management/controller administration. There are some exceptions of
course <br>
> (a) MAC address exhaustion under a given OUI category  (b) manual
<br>
> copy/cloning of VMs and powering on them using standalone management
<br>
> entities (c) VMs that use MAC address override for legitimate reasons
<br>
> [because else things like licensing software breaks].  There
are some <br>
> mechanisms in place to address (a), but (b) and (c) requires co-operat=
ion
at <br>
> the management-entity/controllers.<br>
> <br>
> Mallik<br>
> <br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=3D"2"><tt>> From: "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com>=
<br>
> To: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com><br>
> Cc: "yu jinghai" <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, dc@ietf.org,
"Lizhong Jin"<br>
> <lizho.jin@gmail.com><br>
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:20:07 AM<br>
> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in
DC<br>
> <br>
> <br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=3D"2"><tt>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Narte=
n
<narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:</tt></font>
<br><font size=3D"2"><tt>> Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com> writes:=
<br>
> <br>
> > The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circum=
stances
in<br>
> > DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated
servers, or<br>
> > co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or
waste, so<br>
> > machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possi=
ble
to<br>
> > have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something
that this<br>
> > group wishes to evaluate options to solve?<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=3D"2"><tt>> IMO, this is putting the cart before the hors=
e.<br>
> <br>
> Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice
and<br>
> whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?<br>
> <br>
> I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are<br=
>
> their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking
at?<br>
> <br>
> Thomas<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=3D"2"><tt>> <br>
> In the VPS/VM world,  I would say it's not a significant issue
<br>
> because there are single entities (Organizations) that manage the
<br>
> MAC addresses. Typically software would just increment the virtual
<br>
> MACs, and this does not require external protocols to ensure <br>
> uniqueness. If there are many provisioning systems that manage VMs
<br>
> on the same network segment then they will need to keep their <br>
> database in sync. </tt></font>
<br><font size=3D"2"><tt>> <br>
> -- <br>
> --truman<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> dc mailing list<br>
> dc@ietf.org<br>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc</tt></font>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>dc mailing list<br>d=
c@ietf.org<br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc<br></div><br></div><=
/body></html>
------=_Part_716819_890029116.1328253325252--

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Thread-Topic: [dc] ??: Re: Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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Comments: In-reply-to Andy Dockerty <andyd@juniper.net> message dated "Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:26:23 +1100."
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From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Andy Dockerty <andyd@juniper.net> writes:

> I am aware that there are concerns about "OUI address space", that
> not withstanding, the creation of an OUI space analogous with
> RFC1918 address space, coupled with the extension of OUI
> registration may offer an option to ensure organizational or locally
> significant MAC uniqueness....

RFC 1918 space is shared in the sense that anyone can use it as they
see fit. Different organizations use the same space, so if you
merge/join to organizations you risk having collisions. Even within an
organization, assignments must be done in such a way as to avoid
collisionss. RFC1918 space is defined to have local scope only, i.e.,
not be globally unique.

Seems to me that MAC addrs satisfy that property already, via
appropriate use of the "local" bit.

So when you suggest creation of an "OUI space analagous with RFC1918
space", do we not already have that?

Thomas


From mallik@vmware.com  Fri Feb  3 09:50:48 2012
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From: Mallik Mahalingam <mallik@vmware.com>
To: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Hi Thomas:

Yes, extending LAA [Locally Administered Address] is something that I discu=
ssed with David Black and few others in the past in the context of MAC addr=
ess exhaustion. I did see some initial activity in IEEE on this, but I didn=
't get much time to spend on that activity and secondly, with the advent of=
 encapsulation techniques, I am yet to find  if this even a real problem be=
cause the MAC address VM sees is hidden from the fabric.

Mallik

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>
To: "Andy Dockerty" <andyd@juniper.net>
Cc: "Mallik Mahalingam" <mallik@vmware.com>, "yu jinghai" <yu.jinghai@zte.c=
om.cn>, "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com>, dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin" <lizh=
o.jin@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 5:45:18 AM
Subject: Re: [dc] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Re:  Requirement for a method to mana=
ge mac address in DC

Andy Dockerty <andyd@juniper.net> writes:

> I am aware that there are concerns about "OUI address space", that
> not withstanding, the creation of an OUI space analogous with
> RFC1918 address space, coupled with the extension of OUI
> registration may offer an option to ensure organizational or locally
> significant MAC uniqueness....

RFC 1918 space is shared in the sense that anyone can use it as they
see fit. Different organizations use the same space, so if you
merge/join to organizations you risk having collisions. Even within an
organization, assignments must be done in such a way as to avoid
collisionss. RFC1918 space is defined to have local scope only, i.e.,
not be globally unique.

Seems to me that MAC addrs satisfy that property already, via
appropriate use of the "local" bit.

So when you suggest creation of an "OUI space analagous with RFC1918
space", do we not already have that?

Thomas


From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Fri Feb  3 10:18:00 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:17:37 -0500
Message-ID: <CAF4+nEFMuBZ+90AqM2F-ZAbAFWB8Mf76c0_hAEqitV3Z4JmvyA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Pat Thaler <pthaler@broadcom.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=f46d042c64970a238004b8135532
Cc: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, "dc@ietf.org" <dc@ietf.org>, yu jinghai <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com>, Lizhong Jin <lizho.jin@gmail.com>, Mallik Mahalingam <mallik@vmware.com>
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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--f46d042c64970a238004b8135532
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Hi Pat,

Please see below:

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Pat Thaler <pthaler@broadcom.com> wrote:
> Some work on managing MAC addresses of virtual devices in a Data Center m=
ay
> be worthwhile, though it isn=92t clear to me whether such work would bett=
er
> fit in IETF or IEEE 802.
>
>
>
> When virtualization ecosystem management entities are handing out address=
es,
> there can be data centers with multiple such entities and one can=92t cou=
nt on
> them to coordinate their use of the address space. While each of them won=
=92t
> hand out duplicate addresses to the set of VMs they manage, the addresses
> may be duplicated for VMs managed by different management entities.
> Sometimes this can be dealt with by manual assignment of ranges, but in a
> data center with multiple tenants, the tenants are unlikely to coordinate
> that. The potential duplicate addresses can in some cases be dealt with b=
y
> mechanisms that keep the address space of the management entities separat=
e
> such as: IVL (or other mechanisms that concatenate VLAN and MAC address f=
or
> bridge learning) or layer 2 (e.g. PBB and TRILL) or layer 3 encapsulation=
s.

Sorry to be nit-picky, but TRILL is not a layer 2 encapsulation. It is
provably above layer 2.

In my opinion, the best way to tell if a device of type X is at a
higher layer, at the same layer, or at a lower layer, than a device of
type Y is to look at peering. Generally speaking, layer 2 devices are
transparent to TRILL and TRILL switches peer through layer 2 devices,
just like layer 3 routers peer with each other through layer 2
devices. On the other hand, TRILL switches look like end stations to
and block peering between layer 2 devices, just like layer 3 routers
look like end stations and block peering between layer 2 devices. See
attached slides.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

> =A0But there could be some areas where a protocol for coordinating assign=
ments
> to avoid duplication would help.
>
> There have been discussions in the IEEE RAC about concerns regarding the =
use
> of MAC addresses from the global MAC address space for virtual devices;
> issues include potential for exhausting the global address space and that=
 an
> address that looks like a global address is being used as a local address=
.
> Half the MAC address space is for local addresses, but there aren=92t
> standardized mechanisms for managing addresses in that space.
>
>
>
> <IEEE 802 Vice-Chair hat on> If work was done in the IETF on MAC address
> management/assignment, there should be close liaison with IEEE 802 and th=
e
> IEEE RAC.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Malli=
k
> Mahalingam
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:22 AM
> To: Truman Boyes
> Cc: Thomas Narten; yu jinghai; dc@ietf.org; Lizhong Jin
>
>
> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>
>
>
> In a virtualized environment MAC addresses are not totally random generat=
ed.
> There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/controller(s) allocating the
> MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the same MAC
> address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope of that
> management/controller administration. There are some exceptions of course
> (a) MAC address exhaustion under a given OUI category =A0(b) manual
> copy/cloning of VMs and powering on them using standalone management
> entities (c) VMs that use MAC address override for legitimate reasons
> [because else things like licensing software breaks]. =A0There are some
> mechanisms in place to address (a), but (b) and (c) requires co-operation=
 at
> the management-entity/controllers.
>
> Mallik
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com>
> To: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>
> Cc: "yu jinghai" <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin"
> <lizho.jin@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:20:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstances
>> in
>> DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, or
>> co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so
>> machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to
>> have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that this
>> group wishes to evaluate options to solve?
>
> IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse.
>
> Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and
> whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?
>
> I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are
> their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at?
>
> Thomas
>
>
> In the VPS/VM world, =A0I would say it's not a significant issue because =
there
> are single entities (Organizations) that manage the MAC addresses. Typica=
lly
> software would just increment the virtual MACs, and this does not require
> external protocols to ensure uniqueness. If there are many provisioning
> systems that manage VMs on the same network segment then they will need t=
o
> keep their database in sync.
>
>
>
> --
> --truman
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc
>

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From pthaler@broadcom.com  Fri Feb  3 10:52:13 2012
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From: "Pat Thaler" <pthaler@broadcom.com>
To: "Donald Eastlake" <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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Cc: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, "dc@ietf.org" <dc@ietf.org>, yu jinghai <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com>, Lizhong Jin <lizho.jin@gmail.com>, Mallik Mahalingam <mallik@vmware.com>
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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Donald,

Everything has to be somewhere. By your argument, TRILL bridges aren't laye=
r 3 devices either because they aren't peering with the routers in your sli=
des. They are below layer 3 - not working in the layer 3 addressing domain =
so they are in layer 2. It is just that layer 2 has some sublayers of peere=
d devices. Long before TRILL and PBB, there were Ethernet repeaters which w=
ere also layer 2 devices and didn't peer with switches. Provider bridges, p=
rovider backbone bridges and TRILL all work at different sublayers in layer=
 2.=20

I also don't see how that matters to the content of this discussion. Whethe=
r one considers TRILL bridges to be at some new layer 2.5 or not or even at=
 layer 3 doesn't matter to the point that they provide isolation between th=
e address spaces of tenants.  That isolation only applies if any traffic be=
tween those tenants goes through a layer 3 devices that removes the origina=
l MAC addresses from the frame.

Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Donald =
Eastlake
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:18 AM
To: Pat Thaler
Cc: Thomas Narten; dc@ietf.org; yu jinghai; Truman Boyes; Lizhong Jin; Mall=
ik Mahalingam
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC

Hi Pat,

Please see below:

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Pat Thaler <pthaler@broadcom.com> wrote:
> Some work on managing MAC addresses of virtual devices in a Data Center m=
ay
> be worthwhile, though it isn't clear to me whether such work would better
> fit in IETF or IEEE 802.
>
>
>
> When virtualization ecosystem management entities are handing out address=
es,
> there can be data centers with multiple such entities and one can't count=
 on
> them to coordinate their use of the address space. While each of them won=
't
> hand out duplicate addresses to the set of VMs they manage, the addresses
> may be duplicated for VMs managed by different management entities.
> Sometimes this can be dealt with by manual assignment of ranges, but in a
> data center with multiple tenants, the tenants are unlikely to coordinate
> that. The potential duplicate addresses can in some cases be dealt with b=
y
> mechanisms that keep the address space of the management entities separat=
e
> such as: IVL (or other mechanisms that concatenate VLAN and MAC address f=
or
> bridge learning) or layer 2 (e.g. PBB and TRILL) or layer 3 encapsulation=
s.

Sorry to be nit-picky, but TRILL is not a layer 2 encapsulation. It is
provably above layer 2.

In my opinion, the best way to tell if a device of type X is at a
higher layer, at the same layer, or at a lower layer, than a device of
type Y is to look at peering. Generally speaking, layer 2 devices are
transparent to TRILL and TRILL switches peer through layer 2 devices,
just like layer 3 routers peer with each other through layer 2
devices. On the other hand, TRILL switches look like end stations to
and block peering between layer 2 devices, just like layer 3 routers
look like end stations and block peering between layer 2 devices. See
attached slides.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com

> =A0But there could be some areas where a protocol for coordinating assign=
ments
> to avoid duplication would help.
>
> There have been discussions in the IEEE RAC about concerns regarding the =
use
> of MAC addresses from the global MAC address space for virtual devices;
> issues include potential for exhausting the global address space and that=
 an
> address that looks like a global address is being used as a local address=
.
> Half the MAC address space is for local addresses, but there aren't
> standardized mechanisms for managing addresses in that space.
>
>
>
> <IEEE 802 Vice-Chair hat on> If work was done in the IETF on MAC address
> management/assignment, there should be close liaison with IEEE 802 and th=
e
> IEEE RAC.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Malli=
k
> Mahalingam
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:22 AM
> To: Truman Boyes
> Cc: Thomas Narten; yu jinghai; dc@ietf.org; Lizhong Jin
>
>
> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>
>
>
> In a virtualized environment MAC addresses are not totally random generat=
ed.
> There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/controller(s) allocating the
> MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the same MAC
> address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope of that
> management/controller administration. There are some exceptions of course
> (a) MAC address exhaustion under a given OUI category =A0(b) manual
> copy/cloning of VMs and powering on them using standalone management
> entities (c) VMs that use MAC address override for legitimate reasons
> [because else things like licensing software breaks]. =A0There are some
> mechanisms in place to address (a), but (b) and (c) requires co-operation=
 at
> the management-entity/controllers.
>
> Mallik
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com>
> To: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>
> Cc: "yu jinghai" <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin"
> <lizho.jin@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:20:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstances
>> in
>> DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, or
>> co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so
>> machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to
>> have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that this
>> group wishes to evaluate options to solve?
>
> IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse.
>
> Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and
> whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?
>
> I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are
> their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at?
>
> Thomas
>
>
> In the VPS/VM world, =A0I would say it's not a significant issue because =
there
> are single entities (Organizations) that manage the MAC addresses. Typica=
lly
> software would just increment the virtual MACs, and this does not require
> external protocols to ensure uniqueness. If there are many provisioning
> systems that manage VMs on the same network segment then they will need t=
o
> keep their database in sync.
>
>
>
> --
> --truman
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc
>


From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Sat Feb  4 11:14:54 2012
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 14:14:30 -0500
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To: Pat Thaler <pthaler@broadcom.com>
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Cc: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, "dc@ietf.org" <dc@ietf.org>, yu jinghai <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com>, Lizhong Jin <lizho.jin@gmail.com>, Mallik Mahalingam <mallik@vmware.com>
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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Hi Pat,

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Pat Thaler <pthaler@broadcom.com> wrote:
> Donald,
>
> Everything has to be somewhere.

"remember: no matter where you go... there you are" The Adventures of
Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension...

> By your argument, TRILL bridges aren't layer 3 devices either
> because they aren't peering with the routers in your slides. They
> are below layer 3 -

Yes. Exactly the same form of proof that proves that TRILL switches
are above layer 2 also proves that TRILL switches are below layer 3.

> not working in the layer 3 addressing domain so they are in layer 2.

No. TRILL Data packets are routed by TRILL switches using the TRILL
nickname address space. I do not know what the basis is of your
assertion that TRILL nicknames are not layer 3 addresses but I don't
believe they are layer 2 addresses.

> It is just that layer 2 has some sublayers of peered devices.
> Long before TRILL and PBB, there were Ethernet repeaters which were
> also layer 2 devices and didn't peer with switches. Provider
> bridges, provider backbone bridges and TRILL all work at different
> sublayers in layer 2.

I disagree the TRILL is a sublayer of Layer 2. It is fairly easy to
order devices as to relative layer based on peering although, like
with anything else, if you apply a sufficiently strong magnifying
glass you can find some odd glitches and corner case:

Repeater < Prov. Bridge < Cust. Bridge < TRILL Switch < L3 Router

In my opinion, the arguments that TRILL is in Layer 2 or Layer 3 are
in exact equipoise. I do not agree that anything on or inside the
border betwen Layer 2 and Layer 3 should be classified as Layer 2.

> I also don't see how that matters to the content of this
> discussion. Whether one considers TRILL bridges to be at some new

TRILL routers

> layer 2.5 or not or even at layer 3 doesn't matter to the point that
> they provide isolation between the address spaces of tenants. That
> isolation only applies if any traffic between those tenants goes
> through a layer 3 devices that removes the original MAC addresses
> from the frame.

I agree that it does not matter much to the point under discussion. I
just didn't want people to be confused about the true nature of TRILL
switches.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Regards,
> Pat
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Donal=
d Eastlake
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:18 AM
> To: Pat Thaler
> Cc: Thomas Narten; dc@ietf.org; yu jinghai; Truman Boyes; Lizhong Jin; Ma=
llik Mahalingam
> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>
> Hi Pat,
>
> Please see below:
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Pat Thaler <pthaler@broadcom.com> wrote:
>> Some work on managing MAC addresses of virtual devices in a Data Center =
may
>> be worthwhile, though it isn't clear to me whether such work would bette=
r
>> fit in IETF or IEEE 802.
>>
>>
>>
>> When virtualization ecosystem management entities are handing out addres=
ses,
>> there can be data centers with multiple such entities and one can't coun=
t on
>> them to coordinate their use of the address space. While each of them wo=
n't
>> hand out duplicate addresses to the set of VMs they manage, the addresse=
s
>> may be duplicated for VMs managed by different management entities.
>> Sometimes this can be dealt with by manual assignment of ranges, but in =
a
>> data center with multiple tenants, the tenants are unlikely to coordinat=
e
>> that. The potential duplicate addresses can in some cases be dealt with =
by
>> mechanisms that keep the address space of the management entities separa=
te
>> such as: IVL (or other mechanisms that concatenate VLAN and MAC address =
for
>> bridge learning) or layer 2 (e.g. PBB and TRILL) or layer 3 encapsulatio=
ns.
>
> Sorry to be nit-picky, but TRILL is not a layer 2 encapsulation. It is
> provably above layer 2.
>
> In my opinion, the best way to tell if a device of type X is at a
> higher layer, at the same layer, or at a lower layer, than a device of
> type Y is to look at peering. Generally speaking, layer 2 devices are
> transparent to TRILL and TRILL switches peer through layer 2 devices,
> just like layer 3 routers peer with each other through layer 2
> devices. On the other hand, TRILL switches look like end stations to
> and block peering between layer 2 devices, just like layer 3 routers
> look like end stations and block peering between layer 2 devices. See
> attached slides.
>
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
>> =A0But there could be some areas where a protocol for coordinating assig=
nments
>> to avoid duplication would help.
>>
>> There have been discussions in the IEEE RAC about concerns regarding the=
 use
>> of MAC addresses from the global MAC address space for virtual devices;
>> issues include potential for exhausting the global address space and tha=
t an
>> address that looks like a global address is being used as a local addres=
s.
>> Half the MAC address space is for local addresses, but there aren't
>> standardized mechanisms for managing addresses in that space.
>>
>>
>>
>> <IEEE 802 Vice-Chair hat on> If work was done in the IETF on MAC address
>> management/assignment, there should be close liaison with IEEE 802 and t=
he
>> IEEE RAC.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
>>
>> From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mall=
ik
>> Mahalingam
>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:22 AM
>> To: Truman Boyes
>> Cc: Thomas Narten; yu jinghai; dc@ietf.org; Lizhong Jin
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>>
>>
>>
>> In a virtualized environment MAC addresses are not totally random genera=
ted.
>> There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/controller(s) allocating th=
e
>> MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the same MAC
>> address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope of that
>> management/controller administration. There are some exceptions of cours=
e
>> (a) MAC address exhaustion under a given OUI category =A0(b) manual
>> copy/cloning of VMs and powering on them using standalone management
>> entities (c) VMs that use MAC address override for legitimate reasons
>> [because else things like licensing software breaks]. =A0There are some
>> mechanisms in place to address (a), but (b) and (c) requires co-operatio=
n at
>> the management-entity/controllers.
>>
>> Mallik
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com>
>> To: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>
>> Cc: "yu jinghai" <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin"
>> <lizho.jin@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:20:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstance=
s
>>> in
>>> DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, o=
r
>>> co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so
>>> machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to
>>> have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that thi=
s
>>> group wishes to evaluate options to solve?
>>
>> IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse.
>>
>> Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and
>> whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?
>>
>> I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are
>> their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at?
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> In the VPS/VM world, =A0I would say it's not a significant issue because=
 there
>> are single entities (Organizations) that manage the MAC addresses. Typic=
ally
>> software would just increment the virtual MACs, and this does not requir=
e
>> external protocols to ensure uniqueness. If there are many provisioning
>> systems that manage VMs on the same network segment then they will need =
to
>> keep their database in sync.
>>
>> --
>> --truman

From joelja@bogus.com  Sun Feb  5 10:04:08 2012
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On 2/3/12 05:45 , Thomas Narten wrote:
> Andy Dockerty <andyd@juniper.net> writes:
> 
>> I am aware that there are concerns about "OUI address space", that
>> not withstanding, the creation of an OUI space analogous with
>> RFC1918 address space, coupled with the extension of OUI
>> registration may offer an option to ensure organizational or locally
>> significant MAC uniqueness....
> 
> RFC 1918 space is shared in the sense that anyone can use it as they
> see fit. Different organizations use the same space, so if you
> merge/join to organizations you risk having collisions. Even within an
> organization, assignments must be done in such a way as to avoid
> collisionss. RFC1918 space is defined to have local scope only, i.e.,
> not be globally unique.

In my experience the by far the number #1 way to produce oui collisions
with VMs by far is when cloning systems or images with predefined oui's.
I'm sort of of the opinion that if you shoot yourself in the foot it
should hurt. attempting to hide or ameliorate that sort of brokenness
would seem like a mistake.

> Seems to me that MAC addrs satisfy that property already, via
> appropriate use of the "local" bit.
> 
> So when you suggest creation of an "OUI space analagous with RFC1918
> space", do we not already have that?
> 
> Thomas
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc
> 


From Peter.AshwoodSmith@huawei.com  Sun Feb  5 17:57:50 2012
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Cc: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, "dc@ietf.org" <dc@ietf.org>, yu jinghai <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com>, Lizhong Jin <lizho.jin@gmail.com>, Mallik Mahalingam <mallik@vmware.com>
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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This numbering of layers was useful way back when but its starting to get w=
orn out and confusing. Probably simpler if people just name the layer by la=
yer encapsulations they are talking about especially in a technical discuss=
ion.

Eg:

MACinVXLANinIPV4inMAC
MACinTRILLinMAC
MACinMAC
MACinMPLSinMPLS
Yada yada ..

Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Donald =
Eastlake
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 2:15 PM
To: Pat Thaler
Cc: Thomas Narten; dc@ietf.org; yu jinghai; Truman Boyes; Lizhong Jin; Mall=
ik Mahalingam
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC

Hi Pat,

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Pat Thaler <pthaler@broadcom.com> wrote:
> Donald,
>
> Everything has to be somewhere.

"remember: no matter where you go... there you are" The Adventures of
Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension...

> By your argument, TRILL bridges aren't layer 3 devices either
> because they aren't peering with the routers in your slides. They
> are below layer 3 -

Yes. Exactly the same form of proof that proves that TRILL switches
are above layer 2 also proves that TRILL switches are below layer 3.

> not working in the layer 3 addressing domain so they are in layer 2.

No. TRILL Data packets are routed by TRILL switches using the TRILL
nickname address space. I do not know what the basis is of your
assertion that TRILL nicknames are not layer 3 addresses but I don't
believe they are layer 2 addresses.

> It is just that layer 2 has some sublayers of peered devices.
> Long before TRILL and PBB, there were Ethernet repeaters which were
> also layer 2 devices and didn't peer with switches. Provider
> bridges, provider backbone bridges and TRILL all work at different
> sublayers in layer 2.

I disagree the TRILL is a sublayer of Layer 2. It is fairly easy to
order devices as to relative layer based on peering although, like
with anything else, if you apply a sufficiently strong magnifying
glass you can find some odd glitches and corner case:

Repeater < Prov. Bridge < Cust. Bridge < TRILL Switch < L3 Router

In my opinion, the arguments that TRILL is in Layer 2 or Layer 3 are
in exact equipoise. I do not agree that anything on or inside the
border betwen Layer 2 and Layer 3 should be classified as Layer 2.

> I also don't see how that matters to the content of this
> discussion. Whether one considers TRILL bridges to be at some new

TRILL routers

> layer 2.5 or not or even at layer 3 doesn't matter to the point that
> they provide isolation between the address spaces of tenants. That
> isolation only applies if any traffic between those tenants goes
> through a layer 3 devices that removes the original MAC addresses
> from the frame.

I agree that it does not matter much to the point under discussion. I
just didn't want people to be confused about the true nature of TRILL
switches.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

> Regards,
> Pat
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Donal=
d Eastlake
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:18 AM
> To: Pat Thaler
> Cc: Thomas Narten; dc@ietf.org; yu jinghai; Truman Boyes; Lizhong Jin; Ma=
llik Mahalingam
> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>
> Hi Pat,
>
> Please see below:
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Pat Thaler <pthaler@broadcom.com> wrote:
>> Some work on managing MAC addresses of virtual devices in a Data Center =
may
>> be worthwhile, though it isn't clear to me whether such work would bette=
r
>> fit in IETF or IEEE 802.
>>
>>
>>
>> When virtualization ecosystem management entities are handing out addres=
ses,
>> there can be data centers with multiple such entities and one can't coun=
t on
>> them to coordinate their use of the address space. While each of them wo=
n't
>> hand out duplicate addresses to the set of VMs they manage, the addresse=
s
>> may be duplicated for VMs managed by different management entities.
>> Sometimes this can be dealt with by manual assignment of ranges, but in =
a
>> data center with multiple tenants, the tenants are unlikely to coordinat=
e
>> that. The potential duplicate addresses can in some cases be dealt with =
by
>> mechanisms that keep the address space of the management entities separa=
te
>> such as: IVL (or other mechanisms that concatenate VLAN and MAC address =
for
>> bridge learning) or layer 2 (e.g. PBB and TRILL) or layer 3 encapsulatio=
ns.
>
> Sorry to be nit-picky, but TRILL is not a layer 2 encapsulation. It is
> provably above layer 2.
>
> In my opinion, the best way to tell if a device of type X is at a
> higher layer, at the same layer, or at a lower layer, than a device of
> type Y is to look at peering. Generally speaking, layer 2 devices are
> transparent to TRILL and TRILL switches peer through layer 2 devices,
> just like layer 3 routers peer with each other through layer 2
> devices. On the other hand, TRILL switches look like end stations to
> and block peering between layer 2 devices, just like layer 3 routers
> look like end stations and block peering between layer 2 devices. See
> attached slides.
>
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
> =A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
> =A0d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
>> =A0But there could be some areas where a protocol for coordinating assig=
nments
>> to avoid duplication would help.
>>
>> There have been discussions in the IEEE RAC about concerns regarding the=
 use
>> of MAC addresses from the global MAC address space for virtual devices;
>> issues include potential for exhausting the global address space and tha=
t an
>> address that looks like a global address is being used as a local addres=
s.
>> Half the MAC address space is for local addresses, but there aren't
>> standardized mechanisms for managing addresses in that space.
>>
>>
>>
>> <IEEE 802 Vice-Chair hat on> If work was done in the IETF on MAC address
>> management/assignment, there should be close liaison with IEEE 802 and t=
he
>> IEEE RAC.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
>>
>> From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mall=
ik
>> Mahalingam
>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:22 AM
>> To: Truman Boyes
>> Cc: Thomas Narten; yu jinghai; dc@ietf.org; Lizhong Jin
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>>
>>
>>
>> In a virtualized environment MAC addresses are not totally random genera=
ted.
>> There is some notion of Management-Entity(s)/controller(s) allocating th=
e
>> MAC addresses for VMs and ensures that it does not assign the same MAC
>> address to two different VMs and this work only within the scope of that
>> management/controller administration. There are some exceptions of cours=
e
>> (a) MAC address exhaustion under a given OUI category =A0(b) manual
>> copy/cloning of VMs and powering on them using standalone management
>> entities (c) VMs that use MAC address override for legitimate reasons
>> [because else things like licensing software breaks]. =A0There are some
>> mechanisms in place to address (a), but (b) and (c) requires co-operatio=
n at
>> the management-entity/controllers.
>>
>> Mallik
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: "Truman Boyes" <tboyes@gmail.com>
>> To: "Thomas Narten" <narten@us.ibm.com>
>> Cc: "yu jinghai" <yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn>, dc@ietf.org, "Lizhong Jin"
>> <lizho.jin@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 10:20:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> The L2 separation between multiple tenants is true in most circumstance=
s
>>> in
>>> DCs, but in commodity computing (ie. VPS, low cost dedicated servers, o=
r
>>> co-location) there is a concern on IPv4 address exhaustion or waste, so
>>> machines/instances are grouped on single L2 segments. It is possible to
>>> have virtual MAC overlaps on these segments. Is this something that thi=
s
>>> group wishes to evaluate options to solve?
>>
>> IMO, this is putting the cart before the horse.
>>
>> Can we first get a sense for how big a problem this is in practice and
>> whether existing mitigation approaches are not sufficient?
>>
>> I.e., is this a real problem causing significant pain today, or are
>> their other bigger "pain points" that we should be looking at?
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> In the VPS/VM world, =A0I would say it's not a significant issue because=
 there
>> are single entities (Organizations) that manage the MAC addresses. Typic=
ally
>> software would just increment the virtual MACs, and this does not requir=
e
>> external protocols to ensure uniqueness. If there are many provisioning
>> systems that manage VMs on the same network segment then they will need =
to
>> keep their database in sync.
>>
>> --
>> --truman
_______________________________________________
dc mailing list
dc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc

From richard.bohan.liu@gmail.com  Mon Feb  6 15:33:57 2012
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Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
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> The tunneling technologies mentioned (6to4, ISATAP, etc) should be kept out of data centers.

The tunneling technologies mentioned should belong to the scope of
VPN4DC. So inevitably, we need to do some work to make them
interoperable.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:56 PM, <liu.bin21 at zte.com.cn> wrote:


Thomas, thank you for your comments!

About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between
the different vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not
exist. As you say, "let's be realistic", our intention is to improve
the flexibility of VM migration, as well as the breadth
of applications under the premise of market heavyweights are not
opposed to it.In order to achieve these goals, analyse possible
problems, discuss and resolve these problems, such as: VM migration is
due to a non-public sector energy-efficient needs, rather than to
public access without interruption, or business needs of the user's
desktop migration, this demand may exist within a same service
provider, or you say a same vender with mixed network, for example:

With the promotion of IPv6 technology, the existing IPv4 networks will
be more and more IPv6 hosts, these applications driven
a series of tunnel technologies to provide solutions, such as: 6to4
tunnel technology, ISATAP tunnel technology, and so on.
Virtual machine migration technology will also be the basis of these
network environments,in the transition network using tunneling
transition technique, the connections between the subnets and the
backbone network are achieved through the tunneling gateway. In the
IPv4/IPv6 transition period, a variety of tunnels coexist. The
establishment of the tunnel varies with different gateways. The
traditional tunneling gateway only establishes tunnels for
communication with the same type of gateway, the different types of
traditional tunneling gateway cannot communicate with each other,
which cannot meet the requirements of VPN communications in the
transition period. A multi-tunnel VPN gateway is used to solve the
problem of establishing the tunnel between the heterogeneous gateways.

Many thanks for guidance

Regards,

Bin Liu

liu.bin21 at zte.com.cn
Richard.BoHan.liu at gmail.com




I understand the first section in the above comments regarding virtual
machines. In the context of IPv6 adoption for virtual machines or
rather generically in data centers, I see native IPv6-only or dual
stack as being the choice for numbering VMs. The tunneling
technologies mentioned (6to4, ISATAP, etc) should be kept out of data
centers.

-- 
--truman

From vumip1@gmail.com  Wed Feb  8 09:24:21 2012
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From: Bhumip Khasnabish <vumip1@gmail.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  Christopher LILJENSTOLPE <cdl@asgaard.org>, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>,  Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>, dc@ietf.org
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Thanks Juergen.

Can you give a few examples of which "implementors"
you are referring to.

Best.

Bhumip




On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 3:00 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 04:06:19PM -0800, Christopher LILJENSTOLPE wrote:
> > Greetings Vishwas,
> >
> >       And I guess I am saying that I'm not sure I agree.  If a single
> process running can kill all the other processes on a given system
> (especially if it is in "user space" - which I would assume for control
> plane functions), I would say that there are more substantial issues with
> the architecture of that particular VM distribution.  Similar answer if
> someone actually put a control-plane engine (think routing protocols) in
> kernel space.  We, as a standards organization can't save the world from
> less-than-inteligent developers....
> >
>
> The Linux-based hypervisors I have used happen to have the bridge(s)
> in the kernel plus user space utilities to configure/control them, as
> it should be. But then I am not using products but just open source
> implementations... ;-)
>
> A general observation: I think what this discussion really is lacking
> is implementors familiar with real-world implementations. If there
> were more implementors involved here with a decent understanding of
> code bases, I assume we would be quickly able to figure out what and
> if anything needs to be dealt with in the IETF.
>
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>  _______________________________________________
> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc
>

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<div><font color=3D"#000099" size=3D"4">Thanks Juergen.</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000099" size=3D"4"></font>=A0</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000099" size=3D"4">Can you give a few examples of whic=
h "implementors" </font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000099" size=3D"4">you are referring to.</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000099" size=3D"4"></font>=A0</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000099" size=3D"4">Best.</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000099" size=3D"4"></font>=A0</div>
<div><font color=3D"#000099" size=3D"4">Bhumip</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#000099" size=3D"4"></font>=A0</div>
<div><br><br>=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 3:00 AM, Juergen Schoenw=
aelder <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-unive=
rsity.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>></s=
pan> wrote:<br>

<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PA=
DDING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 04:06:19PM -0800, Christopher LILJENSTOLPE wro=
te:<br>> Greetings Vishwas,<br>><br>> =A0 =A0 =A0 And I guess I am=
 saying that I'm not sure I agree. =A0If a single process running can k=
ill all the other processes on a given system (especially if it is in "=
;user space" - which I would assume for control plane functions), I wo=
uld say that there are more substantial issues with the architecture of tha=
t particular VM distribution. =A0Similar answer if someone actually put a c=
ontrol-plane engine (think routing protocols) in kernel space. =A0We, as a =
standards organization can't save the world from less-than-inteligent d=
evelopers....<br>
><br><br></div>The Linux-based hypervisors I have used happen to have th=
e bridge(s)<br>in the kernel plus user space utilities to configure/control=
 them, as<br>it should be. But then I am not using products but just open s=
ource<br>
implementations... ;-)<br><br>A general observation: I think what this disc=
ussion really is lacking<br>is implementors familiar with real-world implem=
entations. If there<br>were more implementors involved here with a decent u=
nderstanding of<br>
code bases, I assume we would be quickly able to figure out what and<br>if =
anything needs to be dealt with in the IETF.<br><br>/js<br><font color=3D"#=
888888"><br>--<br>Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs Universi=
ty Bremen gGmbH<br>
Phone: <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20421%20200%203587" target=3D"_blank" value=3D"=
+494212003587">+49 421 200 3587</a> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Br=
emen, Germany<br>Fax: =A0 <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20421%20200%203103" target=
=3D"_blank" value=3D"+494212003103">+49 421 200 3103</a> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 &l=
t;<a href=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
.jacobs-university.de/</a>><br>
</font>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>dc mailing list<br>=
<a href=3D"mailto:dc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dc@ietf.org</a><br><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc" target=3D"_blank">https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all">=A0=20

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Bhumip Khasnabish <vumip1@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
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On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 12:24:16PM -0500, Bhumip Khasnabish wrote:
> Thanks Juergen.
> 
> Can you give a few examples of which "implementors"
> you are referring to.
> 

The value of any standard is measured in implementations and
eventually deployments. In the IETF, this is even wired into the rules
since specifications only advance if there are interoperable
implementations. Hence, if someone pushes for work done in the IETF,
he/she needs to understand who is going to implement things and
involve those implementors in the process to ensure the specification
is real-world implementable.

In the discussion here, I sometimes sense a lack of clueful input from
people who are familiar with code running in hypervisors or whatever
is proposed to be modified. In the case of hypervisors, there should
be people who know xen, vmware, ... from the inside. And if those
people find agreement that there is a common problem the IETF can help
with (by providing a platform to develop a common solution), then I
get a much better feeling.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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To: Pat Thaler <pthaler@broadcom.com>, Mallik Mahalingam <mallik@vmware.com>,  Truman Boyes <tboyes@gmail.com>
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From: "Gene Golovinsky" <ggolovinsky@gmail.com>
To: <dcrg-interest@irtf.org>, <dc@ietf.org>
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Hi.
I would like to request a presentation slot for 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-golovinsky-cloud-services-log-format-01
at OPSAWG meeting during upcoming IETF 83.

Many thanks.
--Gene

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<TITLE>Slot request for OPSAWG





Hi.



I would like to =
request a presentation slot for 



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-golovinsky-cloud-servic=
es-log-format-01



at OPSAWG =
meeting during upcoming IETF 83.



Many =
thanks.



--Gene




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From cdl@asgaard.org  Fri Feb 10 13:10:35 2012
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To: Gene Golovinsky 
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Subject: Re: [dc] [dcrg-interest] Slot request for OPSAWG
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Greetings Gene,

	Can we see some discussion on the list of this draft?  If there =
is interest, we can get a slot for you.

	Chris

On 10Feb2012, at 07.28, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>   Slot request for OPSAWG
>=20
> Hi.
>=20
> I would like to request a presentation slot for
>=20
> =
*http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-golovinsky-cloud-services-log-format-01*=
=

>=20
> at OPSAWG meeting during upcoming IETF 83.
>=20
> Many thanks.
>=20
> --Gene
> _______________________________________________
> dcrg-interest mailing list
> dcrg-interest@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcrg-interest

-- =20
=E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
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From ggolovinsky@gmail.com  Fri Feb 10 13:25:33 2012
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From: "Gene Golovinsky" 
To: "'Christopher LILJENSTOLPE'" , "'Gene Golovinsky'" 
References: <0c9a17be3f136993c365e2e67b0cfad0@mail.gmail.com> 
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Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:25:30 -0800
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Cc: dcrg-interest@irtf.org, dc@ietf.org, Bhumip Khasnabish 
Subject: Re: [dc] [dcrg-interest] Slot request for OPSAWG
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Chris, thanks.
There was some discussion on the "clouds" list some time ago.=20
Hopefully some of the interested parties migrated to these lists and =
contribute their opinions now as well.

Cheers.
--Gene



-----Original Message-----
From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Christopher LILJENSTOLPE
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 01:10 PM
To: Gene Golovinsky
Cc: dcrg-interest@irtf.org; dc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] [dcrg-interest] Slot request for OPSAWG

Greetings Gene,

	Can we see some discussion on the list of this draft?  If there is =
interest, we can get a slot for you.

	Chris

On 10Feb2012, at 07.28, Gene Golovinsky wrote:

>   Slot request for OPSAWG
>=20
> Hi.
>=20
> I would like to request a presentation slot for
>=20
> =
*http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-golovinsky-cloud-services-log-format-01=
*
>=20
> at OPSAWG meeting during upcoming IETF 83.
>=20
> Many thanks.
>=20
> --Gene
> _______________________________________________
> dcrg-interest mailing list
> dcrg-interest@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcrg-interest

-- =20
=E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
Check my PGP key here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc
Current vCard here: https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.vcf



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Cc: Gene Golovinsky 
Subject: [dc] Slot request for OPSAWG
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   Slot request for OPSAWG

Hi.

I would like to request a presentation slot for

*http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-golovinsky-cloud-services-log-format-01*

at OPSAWG meeting during upcoming IETF 83.

Many thanks.

--Gene

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Slot request for OPSAWG





Hi.



I would like to =
request a presentation slot for <=
/p>


<=
u>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-golovinsky-cloud-services-log-format-01




at OPSAWG meetin=
g during upcoming IETF 83.



Many thanks.



--Gene





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From lizho.jin@gmail.com  Thu Feb  2 06:47:07 2012
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From: Lizhong Jin 
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Cc: yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn, dc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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Hi Thomas,
The VMs connected by SPB-M or NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE will still reside in one L2
network, and the VMs MAC will still conflict if have same MAC address. VM
MAC confliction could not be mitigated or solved by these mechanism if I
understand correctly.

Lizhong

-------------------------------------
yu.jinghai at zte.com.cn writes:


>
>    I wonder whether it is necessary to manage mac address in DC.
> As you know,VM's mac is randomly generated.
> The risk of mac conflict is increasing with  the amount of VMs in DC.
> If there is a method to auto manage and allocate mac address,the
>    risk maybe avoid.
> That method may facilitate the operator to control network easily
>    and other available benefits.

One straightforward way to mitigate C-MAC conflicts is via
encapsulations, whether through something like SPB-M or
NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE.

Do such approaches not address the problem sufficiently?

Thomas

--00235429c8181f4d8704b7fc457d
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Hi Thomas,


The VMs connected by SPB-M or NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE will still reside in on=
e L2 network, and the VMs MAC will still conflict if have same MAC address.=
 VM MAC confliction could not be mitigated or solved by these mechanism if =
I understand correctly. 



=A0


Lizhong


=A0


-------------------------------------


yu.jinghai at zte.com.cn writes:
=


>
>=A0=A0=A0 I wonder whether it is necessary to manage ma=
c address in DC.
> As you know,VM's mac is randomly generated.> The risk of mac conflict is increasing with=A0 the amount of VMs in D=
C.

> If there is a method to auto manage and allocate mac address,the
&g=
t;=A0=A0=A0 risk maybe avoid. 
> That method may facilitate the opera=
tor to control network easily
>=A0=A0=A0 and other available benefits=
. 


One straightforward way to mitigate C-MAC conflicts is via
encapsulation=
s, whether through something like SPB-M or
NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE.

Do s=
uch approaches not address the problem sufficiently?

Thomas





--00235429c8181f4d8704b7fc457d--

From david.i.allan@ericsson.com  Sat Feb 11 14:27:46 2012
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From: David Allan I 
To: Lizhong Jin , "narten@us.ibm.com" 
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:27:38 -0500
Thread-Topic: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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Hi Lizhong

VM MACs are administered, and only require uniqueness within a customer VLA=
N. So as long as a single customer VLAN does not have multiple administator=
s, there should be no issue.

IMO a MAC conflict within a single VLAN administration is complete incompet=
ence, not somthing to kill ourselves trying to find a solution over!

my 2 cents
Dave

________________________________
From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhong=
 Jin
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:47 AM
To: narten@us.ibm.com
Cc: yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn; dc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC

Hi Thomas,
The VMs connected by SPB-M or NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE will still reside in one L2 =
network, and the VMs MAC will still conflict if have same MAC address. VM M=
AC confliction could not be mitigated or solved by these mechanism if I und=
erstand correctly.

Lizhong

-------------------------------------
yu.jinghai at zte.com.cn writes:


>
>    I wonder whether it is necessary to manage mac address in DC.
> As you know,VM's mac is randomly generated.
> The risk of mac conflict is increasing with  the amount of VMs in DC.
> If there is a method to auto manage and allocate mac address,the
>    risk maybe avoid.
> That method may facilitate the operator to control network easily
>    and other available benefits.

One straightforward way to mitigate C-MAC conflicts is via
encapsulations, whether through something like SPB-M or
NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE.

Do such approaches not address the problem sufficiently?

Thomas


--_000_60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD522A9445A1EUSAACMS0703e_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable







Hi Lizhong


 


VM MACs are administered, and only require uniqueness=
 within a=20
customer VLAN. So as long as a single customer VLAN does not have multiple=
=20
administators, there should be no issue.


 


IMO a MAC conflict within a single VLAN administratio=
n is=20
complete incompetence, not somthing to kill ourselves trying to find a solu=
tion=20
over!


 


my 2 cents


Dave






From: dc-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhong Jin
Sent:=20
Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:47 AM
To:=20
narten@us.ibm.com
Cc: yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn;=20
dc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage =
mac=20
address in DC





Hi Thomas,


The VMs connected by SPB-M or NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE will still reside in on=
e L2=20
network, and the VMs MAC will still conflict if have same MAC address. VM M=
AC=20
confliction could not be mitigated or solved by these mechanism if I unders=
tand=20
correctly. 


 


Lizhong


 


-------------------------------------


yu.jinghai at zte.com.cn=20
writes:


>
>    I wonder whether it is=20
necessary to manage mac address in DC.
> As you know,VM's mac is rand=
omly=20
generated.
> The risk of mac conflict is increasing with  the am=
ount=20
of VMs in DC.
> If there is a method to auto manage and allocate mac=
=20
address,the
>    risk maybe avoid. 
> That metho=
d may=20
facilitate the operator to control network easily
>   =
 and=20
other available benefits. 

One straightforward way to mitigate C-MAC=
=20
conflicts is via
encapsulations, whether through something like SPB-M=20
or
NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE.

Do such approaches not address the problem=20
sufficiently?

Thomas



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From david.i.allan@ericsson.com  Sun Feb 12 17:54:06 2012
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From: David Allan I 
To: "yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn" 
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:53:54 -0500
Thread-Topic: RE: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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--_000_60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD522A94465DEUSAACMS0703e_
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HI Fisher:


 


The size of the network is independent of the size of=
 the=20
VLAN. And I assume a larger network simply has more VLANs. So IMO the probl=
em=20
does not assert itself in proportion to network size.


 


MAC conflict is perhaps true when vendors manufacture=
 many=20
NICs with the same MAC and we have lots of experience with that. When the M=
AC is=20
administered, and within a single administered broadcast domain,, a.k.a.=20
VLAN I still assert problems will only arise via=20
incompetence.


 


SuperVLAN looks to me like asymmetric VID or ETREE. W=
hich is=20
the one scenario when multiple MAC administrations MAY share a single subne=
t,=20
although I suspect the cloud model where ETREE would  be used would=20
preclude that (e.g. SaaS). If one is going to use ETREE for multiple IaaS=20
instances, buyer beware...


 


cheers


Dave






From: yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn=20
[mailto:yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn] 
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012=
=20
11:40 PM
To: David Allan I
Cc: dc@ietf.org; Lizhong Jin=
;=20
narten@us.ibm.com
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: RE: [dc] Requirement for=
 a method to=20
manage mac address in DC




Hi David=A3=BA 
<=
FONT size=3D2=20
face=3Dsans-serif>   In an Large L2 network=A3=ACthe MAC conflict is=20
likely=A3=ACespecially when mutil-vlan interwork through supervlan. =

in addition=A3=ACthe benefit is not only avoidin=
g the=20
MAC conflict=20
but also getting more controlling of their DC=A1=A3 

fisher. 
 =
;=20


>-----------------------------------------<
=A8q=
=A1=D0=A8r=A1=E8=A1=A1=A1=A1=A1=A1=A1=A1=A1=A1=20
    Innovation change 
          &nbs=
p;=20
             the world  
=A8q=A8=
q =A1=D0=A8r  =20
     =A1=F1=A8q=A1=F0=A8r=A1=A1  
=A8t ----=A8s &nbs=
p;     /=A8=80=A1=C5=A8=80\=20
=A1=A1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=A1=C7~~=A1=C7~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   =
    =20
  My nickname: Fisher=20
Yu
>----------------------------------------< 

David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com> =D0=B4=D3=DA =
2012-02-12=20
06:27:38:

> Hi Lizhong 
>=20
  
> VM MACs are administered, an=
d only=20
require uniqueness within a 
> customer VLAN. So as long as a single=
=20
customer VLAN does not have 
> multiple administators, there should b=
e no=20
issue. 
>   
> IMO a MAC conflict within a single VLAN administration is=
=20
complete 
> incompetence, not somthing to kill ourselves trying to fi=
nd a=20
solution over! 
>  =20

> my 2 cents 
&=
gt;=20
Dave 
> 
> From: dc-bounces@ietf=
.org=20
[mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of 
> Lizhong Jin
> Sent=
:=20
Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:47 AM
> To: narten@us.ibm.com
> C=
c:=20
yu.jinghai@zte.com.cn; dc@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement fo=
r a=20
method to manage mac address in DC

&g=
t; Hi=20
Thomas, 
> The VMs connected by SPB-M =
or=20
NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE will still reside in 
> one L2 network, and the VMs =
MAC=20
will still conflict if have same MAC
> address. VM MAC confliction co=
uld=20
not be mitigated or solved by 
> these mechanism if I understand=20
correctly. 
>   
<=
FONT=20
size=3D2>> Lizhong 
>  =20

> -------------------------------------=20

> yu.jinghai at zte.com.cn writes:
> 
&g=
t;=20

> >
> >    I wonder whether it is necessary to=
=20
manage mac address in DC.
> > As you know,VM's mac is randomly=20
generated.
> > The risk of mac conflict is increasing with  t=
he=20
amount of VMs in DC.
> > If there is a method to auto manage and=20
allocate mac address,the
> >    risk maybe avoid. 
&g=
t;=20
> That method may facilitate the operator to control network easily
&=
gt;=20
>    and other available benefits. 
> 
> One=20
straightforward way to mitigate C-MAC conflicts is via
> encapsulatio=
ns,=20
whether through something like SPB-M or
> NVO3/VXLAN/NVGRE.
>=20

> Do such approaches not address the problem sufficiently?
>=20

> Thomas


--_000_60C093A41B5E45409A19D42CF7786DFD522A94465DEUSAACMS0703e_--

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On 13/02/2012 01:53, David Allan I wrote:
> MAC conflict is perhaps true when vendors manufacture many NICs with 
> the same MAC

Maybe  drivers should refuse to enable in the presence of
such a conflict?

That would result in operators correctly rejecting equipment
from their vendors on the grounds that they were supplying
goods not fit for purpose.

- Stewart



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    On 13/02/2012 01:53, David Allan I wrote:
    
MAC conflict is perhaps true when
          vendors manufacture many NICs with the same MAC

    

    Maybe  drivers should refuse to enable in the presence of 

    such a conflict?

    

    That would result in operators correctly rejecting equipment

    from their vendors on the grounds that they were supplying 

    goods not fit for purpose.

    

    - Stewart

    

    

  


--------------000306010300080806030807--

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Comments: In-reply-to Stewart Bryant  message dated "Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:52:46 +0000."
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:02:46 -0500
From: Thomas Narten 
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Stewart Bryant  writes:

> > MAC conflict is perhaps true when vendors manufacture many NICs with 
> > the same MAC

> Maybe  drivers should refuse to enable in the presence of
> such a conflict?

That is what IPv6 effectively does, when stateless address autoconfig
is done. If there are duplicate addresses, the interface shuts
down.

You are pretty much guaranteed to get get duplicate IPv6 link-local
addresses if there are duplicate MAC addrs in use.

But in a data center, I would not expect so much use of stateless
autoconfig...  

Thomas


From truman@suspicious.org  Mon Feb 13 17:38:39 2012
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Subject: Re: [dc] Requirement for a method to manage mac address in DC
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On 13 Feb 2012, at 10:02 AM, Thomas Narten wrote:

> Stewart Bryant  writes:
>=20
>>> MAC conflict is perhaps true when vendors manufacture many NICs with=20=

>>> the same MAC
>=20
>> Maybe  drivers should refuse to enable in the presence of
>> such a conflict?
>=20
> That is what IPv6 effectively does, when stateless address autoconfig
> is done. If there are duplicate addresses, the interface shuts
> down.
>=20
> You are pretty much guaranteed to get get duplicate IPv6 link-local
> addresses if there are duplicate MAC addrs in use.
>=20
> But in a data center, I would not expect so much use of stateless
> autoconfig... =20
>=20
> Thomas


Really depends, you could quite easily use stateless autoconfig in data =
centers where the machines are designed for HPC or large compute farms =
where static addressing is too complex. SLAAC + DHCPv6 would fit the =
bill nicely. In this case, duplicate MACs would be pretty harmful to the =
whole idea of SLAAC.=20

A lot of people have looked at Puppet / CFengine / or other automation =
technologies to do static IP addressing on DC machines, but we already =
have protocols to handle addressing, be it DHCPv6 or SLAAC.

Truman


From adalela@cisco.com  Thu Feb 16 09:06:22 2012
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Thread-Topic: Service Orchestration Protocol
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From: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" 
To: 
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Subject: [dc] Service Orchestration Protocol
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Folks,

=20

This may not be completely relevant to the DC topic, but thought that
some of you might be interested in it.

=20

We have a few drafts posted on a "Service Orchestration Protocol", with
the intent to enable cloud interoperability.

=20

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-orchestration-00 - talks about
why we need a protocol, a.k.a. requirements

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-architecture-00 - describes
the use-cases and network deployments with the protocol

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-00 - describes the
protocol's messages

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sdf-00 - describes scheme for
service naming, workflows, etc.

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-flows-00 - describes some
message flows

=20

A discussion alias https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop is setup
for you to participate in case you find it interesting.

=20

Thanks and look forward to discussing there.

=20

-Ashish

=20


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Folks,<=
/p>
 <=
/p>
This may not be =
completely relevant to the DC topic, but thought that some of you might =
be interested in it.
 <=
/p>
We have a few drafts =
posted on a “Service Orchestration Protocol”, with the =
intent to enable cloud interoperability.
 <=
/p>
http://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-orchestration-00 - talks about why =
we need a protocol, a.k.a. requirements
http=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-architecture-00 - describes =
the use-cases and network deployments with the =
protocol
http://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-00 - describes the protocol’s =
messages
http://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-dalela-sdf-00 - describes scheme for service naming, =
workflows, etc.
http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-flows-00 - describes some message =
flows
 <=
/p>
A discussion alias https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/sop is setup for you to participate in case you find =
it interesting.
 <=
/p>
Thanks and look forward =
to discussing there.
 <=
/p>
-Ashish=

 <=
/p>

------_=_NextPart_001_01CCECCD.498B189D--

From vumip1@gmail.com  Thu Feb 16 12:57:30 2012
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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 15:57:25 -0500
Message-ID: 
From: Bhumip Khasnabish 
To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" 
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Hello Ashish,

There is also a Cloud Service Broker draft

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shao-opsawg-cloud-service-broker-02.txt
Thanks.

Best.

Bhumip


On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)  wrote:

>  Folks,****
>
> ** **
>
> This may not be completely relevant to the DC topic, but thought that som=
e
> of you might be interested in it.****
>
> ** **
>
> We have a few drafts posted on a =93Service Orchestration Protocol=94, wi=
th
> the intent to enable cloud interoperability.****
>
> ** **
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-orchestration-00 - talks about
> why we need a protocol, a.k.a. requirements****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-architecture-00 - describes
> the use-cases and network deployments with the protocol****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-00 - describes the protocol=
=92s
> messages****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sdf-00 - describes scheme for
> service naming, workflows, etc.****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-flows-00 - describes some
> message flows****
>
> ** **
>
> A discussion alias https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop is setup for
> you to participate in case you find it interesting.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks and look forward to discussing there.****
>
> ** **
>
> -Ashish****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc
>
>

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Hello Ashish,


=A0


There is also a Cloud Service Broker draft


=A0



Thanks.


=A0


Best.


=A0


Bhumip



=A0


On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Ashish Dalela =
(adalela) <adalel=
a@cisco.com> wrote:








Folks,


=A0


This may not be completely relevant to the DC topic, but thought that som=
e of you might be interested in it.


=A0


We have a few drafts posted on a =93Service Orchestration Protocol=94, wi=
th the intent to enable cloud interoperability.


=A0


http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-orchestration-00 =
- talks about why we need a protocol, a.k.a. requirements



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-architecture-0=
0 - describes the use-cases and network deployments with the protocol



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-00 - describes the prot=
ocol=92s messages



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sdf-00 - describes scheme f=
or service naming, workflows, etc.



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-flows-00 - desc=
ribes some message flows



=A0


A discussion alias https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop is setup fo=
r you to participate in case you find it interesting.<=
/p>


=A0


Thanks and look forward to discussing there.


=A0


-Ashish


=A0

______________________=
_________________________
dc mailing list
dc@ietf.org

http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc




=A0

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From richard.bohan.liu@gmail.com  Thu Feb 16 14:04:30 2012
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Subject: [dc] A purpose of the draft /// Re: draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
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Greetings David,

Thank you for your comments and question, it is a good question.
>From your viewpoint, "the interoperability between the different
vender (or SPs)" is the necessary condition of the "to work for the
IETF", but I think it is only a sufficient condition of the "to work
for the IETF", not a necessary condition, for example, do VM migration
between private desktop system with IPV6 addresses systems is not one
of the goals of the IETF? Of course yes. Whether or not to agree with
my viewpoint, seamless VM migration between a variety of computing
systems (servers, tablet PCs, mobile phone system) is an irreversible
trend in the future. Do IETF going to miss it?

So, I am sorry, in my personal viewpoint, your query is debatable.

See here, some people may be in doubt: Is the existing program can not
solve your problem?

Yes, the reasons for defect analysis of existing system can refer to
my following opinion(you can seach "traditional tunneling gateway" to
find it in this mail).

Many thanks for guidance

Regards,

Richard Bin Liu

liu.bin21@zte.com.cn
Richard.BoHan.liu@gmail.com

-------------------------------------------------------
> About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between the d=
ifferent vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not  exist.



In other words, there=92s no work for the IETF to do because
interoperability is not a goal.  What have I missed?



Thanks,
--David



From: dc-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf
Of liu.bin21 at zte.com.cn
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:57 PM
To: narten at us.ibm.com; vumip1 at gmail.com
Cc: dc at ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt




Thomas, thank you for your comments!

About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between
the different vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not
exist. As you say, "let's be realistic", our intention is to improve
the flexibility of VM migration, as well as the breadth
of applications under the premise of market heavyweights are not
opposed to it.In order to achieve these goals, analyse possible
problems, discuss and resolve these problems, such as: VM migration is
due to a non-public sector energy-efficient needs, rather than to
public access without interruption, or business needs of the user's
desktop migration, this demand may exist within a same service
provider, or you say a same vender with mixed network, for example:

With the promotion of IPv6 technology, the existing IPv4 networks will
be more and more IPv6 hosts, these applications driven
a series of tunnel technologies to provide solutions, such as: 6to4
tunnel technology, ISATAP tunnel technology, and so on.
Virtual machine migration technology will also be the basis of these
network environments,in the transition network using tunneling
transition technique, the connections between the subnets and the
backbone network are achieved through the tunneling gateway. In the
IPv4/IPv6 transition period, a variety of tunnels coexist. The
establishment of the tunnel varies with different gateways. The
traditional tunneling gateway only establishes tunnels for
communication with the same type of gateway, the different types of
traditional tunneling gateway cannot communicate with each other,
which cannot meet the requirements of VPN communications in the
transition period. A multi-tunnel VPN gateway is used to solve the
problem of establishing the tunnel between the heterogeneous gateways.

Many thanks for guidance

Regards,

Bin Liu

liu.bin21 at zte.com.cn
Richard.BoHan.liu at gmail.com

From david.black@emc.com  Thu Feb 16 15:15:09 2012
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From: 
To: 
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:14:24 -0500
Thread-Topic: [dc] A purpose of the draft /// Re: draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
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Cc: narten@us.ibm.com, david.black@emc.com, dc@ietf.org, vumip1@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [dc] A purpose of the draft /// Re:	draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
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Hi Richard,

I'll keep this brief:

> See here, some people may be in doubt: Is the existing program can not
> solve your problem?

The answer to that question is missing from the draft, and it should start
with a statement of what the actual problem is.  The actual problem is *not=
*
virtual machine migration in general (as stated in the draft's Introduction=
),
as that already works fine over IP based networks (both IPv4 and IPv6).

What work are you advocating that the IETF undertake, and how would that
work improve the current situation for vitual machine migration?

The draft does not contain any answer to that question either.

Thanks,
--David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richa=
rd Bin liu
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 5:04 PM
> To: Black, David
> Cc: narten; dc; Bhumip Khasnabish
> Subject: [dc] A purpose of the draft /// Re: draft-khasnabish-vmmi-proble=
ms-00.txt
>=20
> Greetings David,
>=20
> Thank you for your comments and question, it is a good question.
> From your viewpoint, "the interoperability between the different
> vender (or SPs)" is the necessary condition of the "to work for the
> IETF", but I think it is only a sufficient condition of the "to work
> for the IETF", not a necessary condition, for example, do VM migration
> between private desktop system with IPV6 addresses systems is not one
> of the goals of the IETF? Of course yes. Whether or not to agree with
> my viewpoint, seamless VM migration between a variety of computing
> systems (servers, tablet PCs, mobile phone system) is an irreversible
> trend in the future. Do IETF going to miss it?
>=20
> So, I am sorry, in my personal viewpoint, your query is debatable.
>=20
> See here, some people may be in doubt: Is the existing program can not
> solve your problem?
>=20
> Yes, the reasons for defect analysis of existing system can refer to
> my following opinion(you can seach "traditional tunneling gateway" to
> find it in this mail).
>=20
> Many thanks for guidance
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Richard Bin Liu
>=20
> liu.bin21@zte.com.cn
> Richard.BoHan.liu@gmail.com
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between the=
 different vender(or SPs), so
> your concerns may not  exist.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> In other words, there's no work for the IETF to do because
> interoperability is not a goal.  What have I missed?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> --David
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: dc-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of liu.bin21 at zte.com.cn
> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:57 PM
> To: narten at us.ibm.com; vumip1 at gmail.com
> Cc: dc at ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thomas, thank you for your comments!
>=20
> About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between
> the different vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not
> exist. As you say, "let's be realistic", our intention is to improve
> the flexibility of VM migration, as well as the breadth
> of applications under the premise of market heavyweights are not
> opposed to it.In order to achieve these goals, analyse possible
> problems, discuss and resolve these problems, such as: VM migration is
> due to a non-public sector energy-efficient needs, rather than to
> public access without interruption, or business needs of the user's
> desktop migration, this demand may exist within a same service
> provider, or you say a same vender with mixed network, for example:
>=20
> With the promotion of IPv6 technology, the existing IPv4 networks will
> be more and more IPv6 hosts, these applications driven
> a series of tunnel technologies to provide solutions, such as: 6to4
> tunnel technology, ISATAP tunnel technology, and so on.
> Virtual machine migration technology will also be the basis of these
> network environments,in the transition network using tunneling
> transition technique, the connections between the subnets and the
> backbone network are achieved through the tunneling gateway. In the
> IPv4/IPv6 transition period, a variety of tunnels coexist. The
> establishment of the tunnel varies with different gateways. The
> traditional tunneling gateway only establishes tunnels for
> communication with the same type of gateway, the different types of
> traditional tunneling gateway cannot communicate with each other,
> which cannot meet the requirements of VPN communications in the
> transition period. A multi-tunnel VPN gateway is used to solve the
> problem of establishing the tunnel between the heterogeneous gateways.
>=20
> Many thanks for guidance
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Bin Liu
>=20
> liu.bin21 at zte.com.cn
> Richard.BoHan.liu at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc


From adalela@cisco.com  Thu Feb 16 18:32:39 2012
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Thread-Topic: [dc] Service Orchestration Protocol
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From: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" 
To: "Bhumip Khasnabish" 
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Feb 2012 02:32:23.0598 (UTC) FILETIME=[616814E0:01CCED1C]
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Bhumip,

=20

Thanks, I'm aware of this draft. We should discuss it on the SOP alias
as not to clutter everyone's email with a topic that may not be of
interest. I'm cross posting this to SOP alias for now.

=20

One of things that the first draft describes is limitations of HTTP (and
by implication web-services) for doing cloud - HTTP does not have
constructs to do service discovery, pub-sub, commit-cancel, transaction
forking, interactive prompts, etc. These capabilities are
service-independent (applicable to all services) and very important to
build complex, multi-tiered, or cross-domain services.=20

=20

So, we did not want to add just a new content-type to HTTP, and layer
basic capability into the controller application. The idea here is that
if there are service independent capabilities, they should be part of a
basic protocol scheme, which can be used by every type of service. But
we preserved the text-based nature of well-known L7 protocols - SIP,
HTTP, SMTP, etc.=20

=20

To the specific issue of broker, you might want to refer to the
architecture draft, where we described different types of brokers (we
call them proxies). The functionality in the broker differs depending on
where you place the broker - in the service edge, customer edge,
provider edge, etc. We expect that different domains (compute, storage,
network ..) will have different domain controllers. You still need to
find an interoperable scheme to stitch these domain controllers.

=20

Thanks, Ashish

=20

From: Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:27 AM
To: Ashish Dalela (adalela)
Cc: dc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] Service Orchestration Protocol

=20

Hello Ashish,

=20

There is also a Cloud Service Broker draft

=20

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shao-opsawg-cloud-service-broker-02.txt=20

Thanks.

=20

Best.

=20

Bhumip


=20

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
 wrote:

Folks,

=20

This may not be completely relevant to the DC topic, but thought that
some of you might be interested in it.

=20

We have a few drafts posted on a "Service Orchestration Protocol", with
the intent to enable cloud interoperability.

=20

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-orchestration-00 - talks about
why we need a protocol, a.k.a. requirements

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-architecture-00 - describes
the use-cases and network deployments with the protocol

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-00 - describes the
protocol's messages

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sdf-00 - describes scheme for
service naming, workflows, etc.

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-flows-00 - describes some
message flows

=20

A discussion alias https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop is setup
for you to participate in case you find it interesting.

=20

Thanks and look forward to discussing there.

=20

-Ashish

=20


_______________________________________________
dc mailing list
dc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc




 =20


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Bhumip,
 
Thanks, I’m aware of this draft. We should discuss it on the =
SOP alias as not to clutter everyone’s email with a topic that may =
not be of interest. I’m cross posting this to SOP alias for =
now.
 
One of things that the first draft describes is limitations of HTTP =
(and by implication web-services) for doing cloud – HTTP does not =
have constructs to do service discovery, pub-sub, commit-cancel, =
transaction forking, interactive prompts, etc. These capabilities are =
service-independent (applicable to all services) and very important to =
build complex, multi-tiered, or cross-domain services. =

 
So, we did not want to add just a new content-type to HTTP, and layer =
basic capability into the controller application. The idea here is that =
if there are service independent capabilities, they should be part of a =
basic protocol scheme, which can be used by every type of service. But =
we preserved the text-based nature of well-known L7 protocols – =
SIP, HTTP, SMTP, etc. 
 
To the specific issue of broker, you might want to refer to the =
architecture draft, where we described different types of brokers (we =
call them proxies). The functionality in the broker differs depending on =
where you place the broker – in the service edge, customer edge, =
provider edge, etc. We expect that different domains (compute, storage, =
network ..) will have different domain controllers. You still need to =
find an interoperable scheme to stitch these domain =
controllers.
 
Thanks, Ashish
 
From:=
 =
Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, =
February 17, 2012 2:27 AM
To: Ashish Dalela =
(adalela)
Cc: dc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] Service =
Orchestration Protocol
 
Hello =
Ashish,
 
There is also a Cloud Service Broker =
draft
 
Thanks.
 
Best.
 
Bhumip

 
On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Ashish Dalela =
(adalela) <adalela@cisco.com> =
wrote:
Folks,<=
/p>
 <=
/p>
This may not be =
completely relevant to the DC topic, but thought that some of you might =
be interested in it.
 <=
/p>
We have a few drafts =
posted on a “Service Orchestration Protocol”, with the =
intent to enable cloud interoperability.
 <=
/p>
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-orchestration-0=
0 - talks about why we need a protocol, a.k.a. =
requirements
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-architectur=
e-00 - describes the use-cases and network deployments with the =
protocol
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-00 - =
describes the protocol’s messages
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sdf-00 - =
describes scheme for service naming, workflows, =
etc.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-flows-00 - describes some message flows
 <=
/p>
A discussion alias https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop is setup =
for you to participate in case you find it =
interesting.
 <=
/p>
Thanks and look forward =
to discussing there.
 <=
/p>
-Ashish
 

______________________________________=
_________
dc mailing list
dc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc=




  =


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From vumip1@gmail.com  Thu Feb 16 18:38:47 2012
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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 21:38:38 -0500
Message-ID: 
From: Bhumip Khasnabish 
To: david.black@emc.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3ba66d94fb8604b91fd7e6
Cc: narten@us.ibm.com, richard.bohan.liu@gmail.com, dc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] A purpose of the draft /// Re: draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
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--e89a8f3ba66d94fb8604b91fd7e6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>The actual problem is *not* virtual machine migration in general
>(as stated in the draft's Introduction), as that *already works fine*>over IP based networks (both IPv4 and IPv6).
Is that commonly true David? ... try moving a VM from one control domain to
another even within one building .. the situation becomes worse when VM
needs to be moved across data-centers ove wide area (country, regions,
etc.) across geographical boundary

>What work are you advocating that the IETF undertake,
>and how would that work improve the current situation
> for vitual machine migration?
The VMMI-req. draft focuses on problem statement and requirements for VM
migration  ..once we agree on these we can discuss how *standardized
control and techniques/process* would help seamless migration of VM across
different admin, and control domains .. any others thoughts and suggestions
..

Thanks.

Best.

Bhumip



 On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 6:14 PM,  wrote:

> Hi Richard,
>
> I'll keep this brief:
>
> > See here, some people may be in doubt: Is the existing program can not
> > solve your problem?
>
> The answer to that question is missing from the draft, and it should start
> with a statement of what the actual problem is.  The actual problem is
> *not*
> virtual machine migration in general (as stated in the draft's
> Introduction),
> as that already works fine over IP based networks (both IPv4 and IPv6).
>
> What work are you advocating that the IETF undertake, and how would that
> work improve the current situation for vitual machine migration?
>
> The draft does not contain any answer to that question either.
>
> Thanks,
> --David
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Richard Bin liu
> > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 5:04 PM
> > To: Black, David
> > Cc: narten; dc; Bhumip Khasnabish
> > Subject: [dc] A purpose of the draft /// Re:
> draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
> >
> > Greetings David,
> >
> > Thank you for your comments and question, it is a good question.
> > From your viewpoint, "the interoperability between the different
> > vender (or SPs)" is the necessary condition of the "to work for the
> > IETF", but I think it is only a sufficient condition of the "to work
> > for the IETF", not a necessary condition, for example, do VM migration
> > between private desktop system with IPV6 addresses systems is not one
> > of the goals of the IETF? Of course yes. Whether or not to agree with
> > my viewpoint, seamless VM migration between a variety of computing
> > systems (servers, tablet PCs, mobile phone system) is an irreversible
> > trend in the future. Do IETF going to miss it?
> >
> > So, I am sorry, in my personal viewpoint, your query is debatable.
> >
> > See here, some people may be in doubt: Is the existing program can not
> > solve your problem?
> >
> > Yes, the reasons for defect analysis of existing system can refer to
> > my following opinion(you can seach "traditional tunneling gateway" to
> > find it in this mail).
> >
> > Many thanks for guidance
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Richard Bin Liu
> >
> > liu.bin21@zte.com.cn
> > Richard.BoHan.liu@gmail.com
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between
> the different vender(or SPs), so
> > your concerns may not  exist.
> >
> >
> >
> > In other words, there's no work for the IETF to do because
> > interoperability is not a goal.  What have I missed?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --David
> >
> >
> >
> > From: dc-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces at ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of liu.bin21 at zte.com.cn
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:57 PM
> > To: narten at us.ibm.com; vumip1 at gmail.com
> > Cc: dc at ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thomas, thank you for your comments!
> >
> > About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between
> > the different vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not
> > exist. As you say, "let's be realistic", our intention is to improve
> > the flexibility of VM migration, as well as the breadth
> > of applications under the premise of market heavyweights are not
> > opposed to it.In order to achieve these goals, analyse possible
> > problems, discuss and resolve these problems, such as: VM migration is
> > due to a non-public sector energy-efficient needs, rather than to
> > public access without interruption, or business needs of the user's
> > desktop migration, this demand may exist within a same service
> > provider, or you say a same vender with mixed network, for example:
> >
> > With the promotion of IPv6 technology, the existing IPv4 networks will
> > be more and more IPv6 hosts, these applications driven
> > a series of tunnel technologies to provide solutions, such as: 6to4
> > tunnel technology, ISATAP tunnel technology, and so on.
> > Virtual machine migration technology will also be the basis of these
> > network environments,in the transition network using tunneling
> > transition technique, the connections between the subnets and the
> > backbone network are achieved through the tunneling gateway. In the
> > IPv4/IPv6 transition period, a variety of tunnels coexist. The
> > establishment of the tunnel varies with different gateways. The
> > traditional tunneling gateway only establishes tunnels for
> > communication with the same type of gateway, the different types of
> > traditional tunneling gateway cannot communicate with each other,
> > which cannot meet the requirements of VPN communications in the
> > transition period. A multi-tunnel VPN gateway is used to solve the
> > problem of establishing the tunnel between the heterogeneous gateways.
> >
> > Many thanks for guidance
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bin Liu
> >
> > liu.bin21 at zte.com.cn
> > Richard.BoHan.liu at gmail.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > dc mailing list
> > dc@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc
>
>

--e89a8f3ba66d94fb8604b91fd7e6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


>The actual problem is *not* virtual machine migration in general <=
/div>

>(as stated in the draft's Introduction), as that al=
ready works fine >over IP based networks (both IPv4 and IPv=
6).


Is that commonly true David? ... try moving a =
VM from one control domain to another even within one building .. the situa=
tion becomes worse when VM needs to be moved across data-centers ove wide a=
rea (country, regions, etc.) across geographical boundary



=A0


>What work are you advocating that the IETF undertake, 


>and how would that work improve the current situation 


> for vitual machine migration?


The VMMI-req. draft focuses on problem stateme=
nt and requirements for VM migration=A0 ..once we agree on these we can dis=
cuss how standardized control and techniques/process would help seam=
less migration of VM across different admin, and control domains .. any oth=
ers thoughts and suggestions ..



=A0


Thanks.


=A0


Best.


=A0


Bhumip


=A0


=A0


=A0


=A0On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 6:14 PM, <david.black@emc.com> wrote:




Hi Richard,

I'll keep this=
 brief:



> See here, some people may be in doubt: Is the ex=
isting program can not
> solve your problem?

The answer =
to that question is missing from the draft, and it should start
with a s=
tatement of what the actual problem is. =A0The actual problem is *not*

virtual machine migration in general (as stated in the draft's Introduc=
tion),
as that already works fine over IP based networks (both IPv4 and =
IPv6).

What work are you advocating that the IETF undertake, and how=
 would that

work improve the current situation for vitual machine migration?

The=
 draft does not contain any answer to that question either.

Thanks,<=
br>--David







> -----Original Message-----
> From: dc-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard B=
in liu

> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 5:04 PM
> To: Black, David
=
> Cc: narten; dc; Bhumip Khasnabish
> Subject: [dc] A purpose of t=
he draft /// Re: draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
>
> Gree=
tings David,

>
> Thank you for your comments and question, it is a good questio=
n.
> From your viewpoint, "the interoperability between the diff=
erent
> vender (or SPs)" is the necessary condition of the "=
;to work for the

> IETF", but I think it is only a sufficient condition of the "=
;to work
> for the IETF", not a necessary condition, for example=
, do VM migration
> between private desktop system with IPV6 addresse=
s systems is not one

> of the goals of the IETF? Of course yes. Whether or not to agree with<=
br>> my viewpoint, seamless VM migration between a variety of computing<=
br>> systems (servers, tablet PCs, mobile phone system) is an irreversib=
le

> trend in the future. Do IETF going to miss it?
>
> So, I a=
m sorry, in my personal viewpoint, your query is debatable.
>
>=
 See here, some people may be in doubt: Is the existing program can not

> solve your problem?
>
> Yes, the reasons for defect analys=
is of existing system can refer to
> my following opinion(you can sea=
ch "traditional tunneling gateway" to
> find it in this mai=
l).

>
> Many thanks for guidance
>
> Regards,
>
&=
gt; Richard Bin Liu
>
> liu.bin21@zte.com.cn
> Richard.BoHan.liu@gmail.com

>
> -------------------------------------------------------
>=
; > About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between =
the different vender(or SPs), so
> your concerns may not =A0exist.
>
>
>
> In other words, there's no work for the IE=
TF to do because
> interoperability is not a goal. =A0What have I mis=
sed?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> --David
>
>=
;

>
> From: dc-bounces at ietf.org [mailto:dc-bounces at <=
a href=3D"http://ietf.org/" target=3D"_blank">ietf.org] On Behalf
&g=
t; Of liu.bin21 at zte.com=
.cn

> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:57 PM
> To: narten at us.ibm.com; vumip1 at gmail.com
> Cc: dc at ietf.org

> Subject: Re: [dc] draft-khasnabish-vmmi-problems-00.txt
>
>=
;
>
>
> Thomas, thank you for your comments!
>
&=
gt; About VM migration in the draft, we did not demand forcibly between

> the different vender(or SPs), so your concerns may not
> exist. =
As you say, "let's be realistic", our intention is to improve=

> the flexibility of VM migration, as well as the breadth
> of=
 applications under the premise of market heavyweights are not

> opposed to it.In order to achieve these goals, analyse possible
>=
; problems, discuss and resolve these problems, such as: VM migration is> due to a non-public sector energy-efficient needs, rather than to

> public access without interruption, or business needs of the user'=
s
> desktop migration, this demand may exist within a same service> provider, or you say a same vender with mixed network, for example:
>
> With the promotion of IPv6 technology, the existing IPv4 netwo=
rks will
> be more and more IPv6 hosts, these applications driven
=
> a series of tunnel technologies to provide solutions, such as: 6to4
> tunnel technology, ISATAP tunnel technology, and so on.
> Virtua=
l machine migration technology will also be the basis of these
> netw=
ork environments,in the transition network using tunneling
> transiti=
on technique, the connections between the subnets and the

> backbone network are achieved through the tunneling gateway. In the> IPv4/IPv6 transition period, a variety of tunnels coexist. The
>=
; establishment of the tunnel varies with different gateways. The
> t=
raditional tunneling gateway only establishes tunnels for

> communication with the same type of gateway, the different types of> traditional tunneling gateway cannot communicate with each other,
=
> which cannot meet the requirements of VPN communications in the

> transition period. A multi-tunnel VPN gateway is used to solve the
=
> problem of establishing the tunnel between the heterogeneous gateways.=

>
> Many thanks for guidance
>
> Regards,
><=
br>
> Bin Liu
>
> liu.bin21 at zte.com.cn
> Richard.BoHan.liu at gmail.com
> ____________________=
___________________________

> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org=

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc





=A0

--e89a8f3ba66d94fb8604b91fd7e6--

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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 21:45:19 -0500
Message-ID: 
From: Bhumip Khasnabish 
To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec52e62177b33ee04b91fef18
Cc: shao.weixiang@zte.com.cn, sop@ietf.org, hu.jie@zte.com.cn, dc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] Service Orchestration Protocol
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Thanks for your quick comments Ashish. I am cc:ing my co-authors for
reviewing your comments and suggestions, and the SOP drafts for further
discussion.

Best.

Bhumip



On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
wrote:

>  Bhumip,****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks, I=92m aware of this draft. We should discuss it on the SOP alias =
as
> not to clutter everyone=92s email with a topic that may not be of interes=
t.
> I=92m cross posting this to SOP alias for now.****
>
> ** **
>
> One of things that the first draft describes is limitations of HTTP (and
> by implication web-services) for doing cloud =96 HTTP does not have
> constructs to do service discovery, pub-sub, commit-cancel, transaction
> forking, interactive prompts, etc. These capabilities are
> service-independent (applicable to all services) and very important to
> build complex, multi-tiered, or cross-domain services. ****
>
> ** **
>
> So, we did not want to add just a new content-type to HTTP, and layer
> basic capability into the controller application. The idea here is that i=
f
> there are service independent capabilities, they should be part of a basi=
c
> protocol scheme, which can be used by every type of service. But we
> preserved the text-based nature of well-known L7 protocols =96 SIP, HTTP,
> SMTP, etc. ****
>
> ** **
>
> To the specific issue of broker, you might want to refer to the
> architecture draft, where we described different types of brokers (we cal=
l
> them proxies). The functionality in the broker differs depending on where
> you place the broker =96 in the service edge, customer edge, provider edg=
e,
> etc. We expect that different domains (compute, storage, network ..) will
> have different domain controllers. You still need to find an interoperabl=
e
> scheme to stitch these domain controllers.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks, Ashish****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Bhumip Khasnabish [mailto:vumip1@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 17, 2012 2:27 AM
> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela)
> *Cc:* dc@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [dc] Service Orchestration Protocol****
>
> ** **
>
> Hello Ashish,****
>
>  ****
>
> There is also a Cloud Service Broker draft****
>
>  ****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-shao-opsawg-cloud-service-broker-02.txt **=
*
> *
>
> Thanks.****
>
>  ****
>
> Best.****
>
>  ****
>
> Bhumip****
>
>
>  ****
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela) <
> adalela@cisco.com> wrote:****
>
> Folks,****
>
>  ****
>
> This may not be completely relevant to the DC topic, but thought that som=
e
> of you might be interested in it.****
>
>  ****
>
> We have a few drafts posted on a =93Service Orchestration Protocol=94, wi=
th
> the intent to enable cloud interoperability.****
>
>  ****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-orchestration-00 - talks about
> why we need a protocol, a.k.a. requirements****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-architecture-00 - describes
> the use-cases and network deployments with the protocol****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-00 - describes the protocol=
=92s
> messages****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sdf-00 - describes scheme for
> service naming, workflows, etc.****
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-flows-00 - describes some
> message flows****
>
>  ****
>
> A discussion alias https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop is setup for
> you to participate in case you find it interesting.****
>
>  ****
>
> Thanks and look forward to discussing there.****
>
>  ****
>
> -Ashish****
>
>  ****
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dc mailing list
> dc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dc****
>
>
>
>
>   ****
>

--bcaec52e62177b33ee04b91fef18
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Thanks for your quick comments Ashish. I am cc:ing my co-authors for r=
eviewing your comments and suggestions, and the SOP drafts for further disc=
ussion. 


=A0


Best.


=A0


Bhumip


=A0



=A0


On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Ashish Dalela (=
adalela) <adalela=
@cisco.com> wrote:








Bhumip,

=A0


Thanks, I=92m aware of this dra=
ft. We should discuss it on the SOP alias as not to clutter everyone=92s em=
ail with a topic that may not be of interest. I=92m cross posting this to S=
OP alias for now.



=A0


One of things that the first dr=
aft describes is limitations of HTTP (and by implication web-services) for =
doing cloud =96 HTTP does not have constructs to do service discovery, pub-=
sub, commit-cancel, transaction forking, interactive prompts, etc. These ca=
pabilities are service-independent (applicable to all services) and very im=
portant to build complex, multi-tiered, or cross-domain services. 



=A0


So, we did not want to add just=
 a new content-type to HTTP, and layer basic capability into the controller=
 application. The idea here is that if there are service independent capabi=
lities, they should be part of a basic protocol scheme, which can be used b=
y every type of service. But we preserved the text-based nature of well-kno=
wn L7 protocols =96 SIP, HTTP, SMTP, etc. 



=A0


To the specific issue of broker=
, you might want to refer to the architecture draft, where we described dif=
ferent types of brokers (we call them proxies). The functionality in the br=
oker differs depending on where you place the broker =96 in the service edg=
e, customer edge, provider edge, etc. We expect that different domains (com=
pute, storage, network ..) will have different domain controllers. You stil=
l need to find an interoperable scheme to stitch these domain controllers.<=
u>



=A0


Thanks, Ashish


=A0




From: Bhumip Khasnabish [m=
ailto:vumip1@gmail.co=
m] 

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:27 AM
To: Ashish Dalela =
(adalela)
Cc: dc=
@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dc] Service Orchestration Protocol=











=A0




Hello Ashish,




=A0




There is also a Cloud Service Broker draft=





=A0





Thanks.




=A0




Best.




=A0




Bhumip





=A0




On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Ashish Dalela (ada=
lela) <adalela@ci=
sco.com> wrote:






Folks,


=A0


This may not be completely relevant to the DC topic, but thought that som=
e of you might be interested in it.


=A0


We have a few drafts posted on a =93Service Orchestration Protocol=94, wi=
th the intent to enable cloud interoperability.


=A0


http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-orchestration-00 =
- talks about why we need a protocol, a.k.a. requirements<=
/u>



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-architecture-0=
0 - describes the use-cases and network deployments with the protocol



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-00 - describes the prot=
ocol=92s messages



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sdf-00 - describes scheme f=
or service naming, workflows, etc.



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-flows-00 - desc=
ribes some message flows



=A0


A discussion alias https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop is setup fo=
r you to participate in case you find it interesting.<=
/p>


=A0


Thanks and look forward to discussing there.


=A0


-Ashish<=
/span>


=A0



___________________=
____________________________
dc mailing list
dc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/dc







=A0 


=A0

--bcaec52e62177b33ee04b91fef18--

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:19:41 +0100
From: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO 
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Subject: [dc] CfP "International Workshop on Cross-Stratum Optimization for Cloud Computing and Distributed Networked Applications"
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[Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this message]

After receiving several request the organizers have decided to extend the d=
eadline.
Authors are encouraged to register their paper today by indicating the titl=
e and a tentative abstract.
The full paper can be submitted at a later time, but on or before March 2nd

Deadline Extension
Call for Papers for the "International Workshop on Cross-Stratum Optimizati=
on for Cloud Computing and Distributed Networked Applications"
http://cccso.net/ or http://www.cccso.net/

Co-located with the 10th IEEE International Symposium on Parallel and Distr=
ibuted Processing with Applications, ISPA 2012 http://www.arcos.inf.uc3m.es=
/ispa12/index.shtml
July 10-13, 2012

Leganes, Madrid, Spain

Aims and Scope
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The current lack of interaction between networked applications and the unde=
rlying network during service provisioning can cause inefficiencies in the =
use of network resources and can negatively impact the quality received by =
the final consumers of those applications.
Typical networked applications are offered through Information Technology (=
IT) resources (such as computing and storage facilities) residing in data c=
enters. Data centers then provide the physical and virtual infrastructure i=
n which applications and services are provided. Since the data centers are =
usually distributed geographically around a network, many decisions made in=
 the control and management of application services, such as where to insta=
ntiate another service instance, or which data center out of several is ass=
igned to a new customer, can have a significant impact on the state of the =
network. In the same way, the capabilities and state of the network can hav=
e a major impact on application performance.
Cross-stratum optimization (CSO) is defined as the combined optimization of=
 both the IT data center and the network components of an application that =
aims to provide joint resource optimization, responsiveness to quickly chan=
ging demands from/to application to/from network, enhanced service resilien=
ce using cooperative recovery techniques, and quality of experience assuran=
ce by a better use of existing network and application resources, among oth=
ers.
The CSO involves the overall optimization of application layer (IT) and net=
work resources by envisioning next generation architecture for interactions=
 and exchanges between the two layers to improve service continuity, perfor=
mance guarantees, scalability and manageability. The goal of this workshop =
is to promote the research interest on the optimal integration of applicati=
on and network resources.
This workshop aims to explore the challenges and issues faced by cloud comp=
uting and data center integration with networks. Among the key areas of inv=
estigation to be discussed in the workshop are as follows:
.- Application/network integration architectures and subsystems
.- Use cases, business models and requirements for application/network inte=
gration
.- Control/management issues for application/network integration
.- Network virtualization and its impact for application/network integratio=
n
.- Network-aware application/cloud computing
.- Flexible and scalable networking solutions for distributed Data Centers
.- Joint application/network reliability and security
.- Experimental/trial experience
.- Scalability
.- Joint/shared performance and fault monitoring
.- Multi-domain issues

Important Dates
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Extended Submission Deadline: 02 March 2012 (*extended final* deadline)
Paper Acceptance Notification: 30 March 2012
Camera-ready Paper Submissions: 13 April 2012
Tentative workshop day: 10 July 2012 (to be confirmed)

Venue
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Universidad Carlos III de Madrid, Leganes, Madrid, Spain

Submision guidelines
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Target papers should describe original and unpublished work. All papers mus=
t be submitted in PDF format. Authors should submit full papers of up to 6 =
pages, following strictly the IEEE Computer Society Proceedings Manuscript =
style (available at http://www.computer.org/portal/web/cscps/formatting), u=
sing two-column, single-space format, with 10-point font size. Figures and =
references must be included in the 6 pages.
The submission process will be done online by using EasyChair submission sy=
stem:
http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=3Dispa2012
choosing this workshop among the various workshops held in conjunction with=
 ISPA-2012
Submissions received after deadline, exceeding length limit, or not followi=
ng the specified format will not be considered.
The proceedings will be published by the IEEE in the same volume as the mai=
n conference and will be made online through the IEEE Xplore.

Technical Program Committee
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Richard Alimi (Google, USA)
Greg Bernstein (Grotto Networking, USA)
TaeSang Choi (ETRI, Korea)
Nicola Ciulli (Nextworks, Italy)
Oscar Gonzalez de Dios (Telef=F3nica I+D, Spain)
Volker Hilt (Bell Labs, USA)
Giada Landi (Nextworks, Italy)
Dan Li (Huawei, China)
Vishwas Manral (HP, USA)
Thomas D. Nadeau (CA Technologies, USA)
Kohei Shiomoto (NTT, Japan)
Ning So (Verizon, USA)
Hui Yang (Beijing University Post and Telecommunication (BUPT), China)
Yang Richard Yang (Yale University, USA)

Workshop Organizing Committee
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
Young Lee, Huawei Technologies (leeyoung (at) huawei.com)
Luis M. Contreras, Telef=F3nica I+D (lmcm (at) tid.es)
Andrea Fumagalli, The University of Texas at Dallas (andreaf (at) utdallas.=
edu)

Best regards,
Luis

_______________
Luis M. Contreras
Telef=F3nica I+D
lmcm@tid.es


________________________________
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[Apologies if you receive multiple copies of this me=
ssage]


 


After receiving several request the organizers have =
decided to extend the deadline.


Authors are encouraged to register their paper today=
 by indicating the title and a tentative abstract.


The full paper can be submitted at a later time, but=
 on or before March 2nd


 


Deadline Extension 


Call for Papers for the "International Workshop=
 on Cross-Stratum Optimization for Cloud Computing and Distributed Networke=
d Applications"


http://cccso.net/ or http://www.cccso.net/


 


Co-located with the 10th IEEE International Symposiu=
m on Parallel and Distributed Processing with Applications, ISPA 2012 http:=
//www.arcos.inf.uc3m.es/ispa12/index.shtml


July 10-13, 2012


 


Leganes, Madrid, Spain


 


Aims and Scope


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The current lack of interaction between networked ap=
plications and the underlying network during service provisioning can cause=
 inefficiencies in the use of network resources and can negatively impact t=
he quality received by the final consumers
 of those applications.


Typical networked applications are offered through I=
nformation Technology (IT) resources (such as computing and storage facilit=
ies) residing in data centers. Data centers then provide the physical and v=
irtual infrastructure in which applications
 and services are provided. Since the data centers are usually distributed =
geographically around a network, many decisions made in the control and man=
agement of application services, such as where to instantiate another servi=
ce instance, or which data center
 out of several is assigned to a new customer, can have a significant impac=
t on the state of the network. In the same way, the capabilities and state =
of the network can have a major impact on application performance.


Cross-stratum optimization (CSO) is defined as the c=
ombined optimization of both the IT data center and the network components =
of an application that aims to provide joint resource optimization, respons=
iveness to quickly changing demands
 from/to application to/from network, enhanced service resilience using coo=
perative recovery techniques, and quality of experience assurance by a bett=
er use of existing network and application resources, among others.


The CSO involves the overall optimization of applica=
tion layer (IT) and network resources by envisioning next generation archit=
ecture for interactions and exchanges between the two layers to improve ser=
vice continuity, performance guarantees,
 scalability and manageability. The goal of this workshop is to promote the=
 research interest on the optimal integration of application and network re=
sources.


This workshop aims to explore the challenges and iss=
ues faced by cloud computing and data center integration with networks. Amo=
ng the key areas of investigation to be discussed in the workshop are as fo=
llows:


.- Application/network integration architectures and=
 subsystems


.- Use cases, business models and requirements for a=
pplication/network integration


.- Control/management issues for application/network=
 integration


.- Network virtualization and its impact for applica=
tion/network integration


.- Network-aware application/cloud computing


.- Flexible and scalable networking solutions for di=
stributed Data Centers


.- Joint application/network reliability and securit=
y


.- Experimental/trial experience


.- Scalability


.- Joint/shared performance and fault monitoring


.- Multi-domain issues


 


Important Dates


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


Extended Submission Deadline: 02 March 2012 (*extend=
ed final* deadline)


Paper Acceptance Notification: 30 March 2012 


Camera-ready Paper Submissions: 13 April 2012 <=
/o:p>


Tentative workshop day: 10 July 2012 (to be confirme=
d)


 


Venue


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


Universidad Carlos III de Madrid, =
Leganes, Madrid, Spain


 


Submision guidelines


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D


Target papers should describe original and unpublish=
ed work. All papers must be submitted in PDF format. Authors should submit =
full papers of up to 6 pages, following strictly the IEEE Computer Society =
Proceedings Manuscript style (available
 at http://www.computer.org/portal/web/cscps/formatting), using two-column,=
 single-space format, with 10-point font size. Figures and references must =
be included in the 6 pages.



The submission process will be done online by using =
EasyChair submission system:


http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=3Dispa201=
2


choosing this workshop among the various workshops h=
eld in conjunction with ISPA-2012



Submissions received after deadline, exceeding lengt=
h limit, or not following the specified format will not be considered.=



The proceedings will be published by the IEEE in the=
 same volume as the main conference and will be made online through the IEE=
E Xplore.


 


Technical Program Committee


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


Richard Alimi (Google, USA)


Greg Bernstein (Grotto Networking, USA)

TaeSang Choi (ETRI, Korea)


Nicola Ciulli (Nextworks, Italy)


Oscar Gonzalez de Dios (Telef=F3ni=
ca I+D, Spain)



Volker Hilt (Bell Labs, USA) 


Giada Landi (Nextworks, Italy) 


Dan Li (Huawei, China) 


Vishwas Manral (HP, USA)


Thomas D. Nadeau (CA Technologies, USA) <=
/p>

Kohei Shiomoto (NTT, Japan) 


Ning So (Verizon, USA) 


Hui Yang (Beijing University Post and Telecommunicat=
ion (BUPT), China)



Yang Richard Yang (Yale University, USA)<=
/p>

 


Workshop Organizing Committee


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


Young Lee, Huawei Technologies (leeyoung (at) huawei=
.com) 



Luis M. Contreras, Telef=F3nica I&=
#43;D (lmcm (at) tid.es)



Andrea Fumagalli, The University of Texas at Dallas =
(andreaf (at) utdallas.edu)


 


Best regards,

Luis


 


_______________<=
/p>

Luis M. Contreras


Telef=F3nica I+D


lmcm@tid.es


 







Este mensaje se dirige exclu=
sivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nuestra pol=EDtica de env=EDo =
y recepci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico en el enlace situado m=E1s abajo.

This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and re=
ceive email on the basis of the terms set out at

http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx





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