Subject: Re: [Dime] Diameter Prefix Delegation Application

From: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:48:11 -0700 (PDT)

Hi Glen,
  The delegated prefixes could be used by the requesting router in RAs in order to realize per-MN prefixes in cellular networks like WiMAX, so the use is not much related to Session-Lifetime but rather to IP session as Frank pointed out.
  The fact is that AAA is being used in managed networks for address management and in prefix delegation as per 4818. The only missing piece is the PD application. 
  Some people are saying that it will be nice to define this missing piece.
Let's agree on this.

Regards,

Behcet

----- Original Message ----
From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
To: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]; Ralph Droms <[email-masked]>; Joseph Salowey (jsalowey) <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:10:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Dime] Diameter Prefix Delegation Application

…
[behcet] Glen, have you read
RFC 4818?
Yes, I have, thank you.  
AAA has already been given a
role in Prefix Delegation.
Although 4818 is rather close-mouthed about actual implementation
(in the tradition of RADIUS documents), it seems fairly clear that in the
intended application the "requesting router" takes the role of the
NAS client (user) (perfectly reasonable in many cases (DSL, WiMAX, etc.)) while
the "delegating router" has the role of NAS.  Obviously, in this
case the Session-Lifetime would be identical to the lifetime of the returned
prefix(es).  Why wouldn't this work in Diameter?

Why not develop an AAA application to get prefixes directly from AAA server?
Because it's unnecessary?
This is what we are proposing.

snipped the rest.

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---

From: "Julien Bournelle" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:02:17 +0200

Hi behcet, all,

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Behcet Sarikaya
<[email-masked]> wrote:
> Hi Glen,
>   The delegated prefixes could be used by the requesting router in RAs in
> order to realize per-MN prefixes in cellular networks like WiMAX, so the use
> is not much related to Session-Lifetime but rather to IP session as Frank
> pointed out.
>   The fact is that AAA is being used in managed networks for address
> management and in prefix delegation as per 4818. The only missing piece is
> the PD application.

 I don't. We already have mechanism for prefix delegation and I'm not
convinced by your
PS. Defining a whole Diameter Application for this seems a misuse of
Diameter to me.

 Regards,

 Julien

---

From: "Glen Zorn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:12:34 +0700

Behcet Sarikaya [mailto:[email-masked]] writes:

Hi Glen,

I'd just love to agree on something.  In order to do that, though, I'd need
someone to a) actually answer my questions or, if that's really not
possible, b) write a problem statement that actually describes a problem
(without assuming a solution) and then tell me how that relates to user
authentication or user authorization or even user accounting.  So far,
though, all I've gotten is talk of undefined (& quite possibly indefinable)
marketing terms ("IP session") and statements that it's already being done.

Regards,

Behcet

----- Original Message ----
From: Glen Zorn <[email-masked]>
To: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]; Ralph Droms <[email-masked]>; Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
<[email-masked]>

.

[behcet] Glen, have you read RFC 4818?

Yes, I have, thank you.  

AAA has already been given a role in Prefix Delegation.

Although 4818 is rather close-mouthed about actual implementation (in the
tradition of RADIUS documents), it seems fairly clear that in the intended
application the "requesting router" takes the role of the NAS client (user)
(perfectly reasonable in many cases (DSL, WiMAX, etc.)) while the
"delegating router" has the role of NAS.  Obviously, in this case the
Session-Lifetime would be identical to the lifetime of the returned
prefix(es).  Why wouldn't this work in Diameter?

snipped the rest.

---

From: Frank Xia <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:20:12 -0500

Hi Julien and Glen

I will appreciate you guys insightful view,
If you give me your understanding about
essence of  Diameter application and does
not  just assert that " this is the misusing of
Diameter".

IMHO,  Diameter as a AAA protocol
can be used in dynamically authorization.
Address management(including prefix
delegation) is a kind of authorization.

BR
Frank

---

From: "Glen Zorn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:32:14 +0700

> not  just assert that " this is the misusing of

I have asserted that it is a misuse of Diameter _because_ (I thought that I
made this pretty clear, but apparently not)it appears that the single
application that is being discussed and cannot be handled in Diameter NASREQ
right now _has nothing to do with _user authorization__.  As I stated in my
original message, I'd be happy to be told that I'm mistaken about this but
nobody's done that.  What I've also said repeatedly is that it appears to me
that you just want to use Diameter (as nothing more than a transport,
actually) just because it happens to be handy.  _That_ is a misuse of the
protocol.

> can be used in dynamically authorization.

Of _users_.

> >> order to realize per-MN prefixes in cellular networks like WiMAX, so
> the
> >> use
> >> management and in prefix delegation as per 4818. The only missing
> piece
> >> is
> >> the PD application.

---

From: Frank Xia <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:12:44 -0500

Hi Glen

Please check my inline clarification...

BR
Frank

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glen Zorn" <[email-masked]>
To: "'Frank Xia'" <[email-masked]>; "'Julien Bournelle'" 
<[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>; "'Behcet Sarikaya'" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:32 AM
Subject: RE: [Dime] Diameter Prefix Delegation Application

>> can be used in dynamically authorization.
Frank=>Most of cases in the diameter PS  are users' authorization related,
such as LMA requesting prefix for it's PMIPv6 user,  access routers asking 
for
prefix for the mobile nodes attached.

---

From: "Glen Zorn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:11:19 +0700

> Please check my inline clarification...
...

such as LMA requesting prefix for it's PMIPv6 user,  access routers asking
for prefix for the mobile nodes attached.

I wrote: "it appears that the single application that is being discussed and
cannot be handled in Diameter NASREQ right now _has nothing to do with _user
authorization__.  As I stated in my original message, I'd be happy to be
told that I'm mistaken about this but nobody's done that."  Still true.

...

---

From: "Julien Bournelle" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:42:57 +0200

Hi,

> delegation) is a kind of authorization.

 hmm, AAA is Authentication, Authorization and Accounting. The
authorization part
of the process is tied to the authentication. You authenticate a user
and based on this
authentication you authorize a service. And then, you perform accouting.
At least this is my understanding. Diameter is a AAA protocol.

 So I don't see how Diameter for Prefix Delegation has to do with
authentication and as you mentionned
it is a "kind of authorization". What exactly the Diameter server will
authorize in your application ?

 Regards,

 Julien

>
> BR
> Frank
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julien Bournelle"