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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 17:55:14 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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All,

I believe that the current DOIC Endpoint behavior definition is not
sufficiently defined, especially for agents.

There was also a change introduced in the -01 version of the draft that
implies that there can be a DOIC association that goes through a DOIC
enabled agent.  This was not  how I understood endpoints.  The original
diagrams showed a DOIC agent as terminating an endpoint that came to
it.    I suspect there were different assumptions that lead to clearly
different interpretations. 

I propose that we return to the original diagrams and add the wording
below on how DOC agents behave.  One way to look at this is that DOC
agents act as back-to-back DOC endpoints.  I intentionally don't say
back-to-back Diameter endpoints because this does not impact anything
except the handling of DOIC related AVPs.

Note that I don't believe this requires any changes to Diameter clients
or servers.  I also don't believe this requires any changes to the
contents of the DOIC related AVPs but there is an open question as to
whether there is a need to indicate when a OC-Supported-Features AVP is
generated or modified by an agent.

I propose to add the following section to the section on capabilities
announcement.  I'll send a separate email proposing text to section 5.5
on how DOC agents are to behave.

Regards,

Steve

-----

5.3.1 DOC Agent handling of DOIC capability exchange.

A DOC agent is defined as a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension.

A DOC node is defined as a Diameter client, Diameter server or Diameter
agent that supports the DOIC extension.

An downstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between the
DOIC supporting Diameter entity that sends a Diameter request message to
a DOC agent and the DOC agent.

A upstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between a DOC
agent and the Diameter entity to which the DOC agent sends the Diameter
request message.  The following illustrated the upstream and downstream
concepts.

  DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream DOIC
association--> DOC  node
  Direction of request message for a transaction ----->
  Direction of answer message for a transaction <-----

Four scenarios must be supported:

  - Scenario 1 - There is both an upstream and downstream DOIC association.
  - Scenario 2 - There is no upstream DOIC association
  - Scenario 3 - There is no downstream DOIC association
  - Scenario 4 - No DOIC association in either direction

Scenario 1 - Both upstream and downstream DOIC associations

Request message handling:

A DOC agent that receives a request that contains the
OC-Supported-Features AVP must act as an endpoint for the downstream
DOIC association.

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the request message then the agent
must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.  The
contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum,
all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP. 
If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent
OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received
OC-Supported-Features AVP.

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the
received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must modify the
OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.  The
modified OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed
request message.

  Note: any DOIC extension must define the changes needed to the
OC-Feature-Vector AVP and any additional AVPs that need to be added to
the OC-Supported-Features AVP as part of the capabilities advertisement
for that feature.

Question: Should there be an indication that the contents of the
OC-Supported-Features AVP was changed?

Question: Will this work when end-to-end security is introduced?  Would
adding a separate OC-Supported-Features AVP be better, especially when
end-to-end security is considered?

Answer message handling:

When an agent receives the  answer message that corresponds to the above
request message, the agent must act as the DOIC endpoint for the
upstream DOIC association. 

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the answer message then the agent
must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.  The
contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum,
all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP. 
If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent
OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received
OC-Supported-Features AVP.

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the
received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent should modify the
OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.  The
modified OC-Supported Features AVP must be included in the relayed
answer message.

Scenario 2 - No downstream DOIC association with an upstream association

In this case a request is received that does not contain an
OC-Supported-Features AVP.

Request message handling:

If a DOC agent receives a request that does NOT contain an
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must generate an
OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the
DOC agent.  The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the
relayed/proxied request message.

The agent will then become the reacting DOIC endpoint for the upstream
DOIC association that results from the transaction. 

Note: Section x.x.x defines agent behavior when it is the reacting node
for a DOIC association.

Answer message handling

In this case the answer message will contain an OC-Supported-Features
AVP.  The DOC agent must store the advertised capabilities for use when
the DOC agent reacts to an overload report from the upstream Diameter node.

The DOC agent should remove the OC-Supported-Features AVP from the
answer message before relaying/proxying the answer message. 

Scenario 3 - Downstream DOC association with no upstream DOIC association

In this case a OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the request from
the downstream Diameter entity but no OC-Supported-Features AVP is
received in the answer message received from the upstream Diameter
entity.  In this case the agent must act as the reporting DOIC endpoint
for the downstream DOIC association.

Request message handling:

Request message handling is the same as for scenario 1.

Answer message handling:

If a DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an
OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that includes an upstream
DOC association then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features
AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.  The
generation of this OC-Supported-Features AVP must also follow the rules
specified in section 5.3.2.  The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be
included in the relayed/proxied the answer message.

Scenario 4 - No upstream association and no downstream association

Request message handling:

The request message handling in this case is the same as scenario 2.

Answer message handling:

If the DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an
OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that does not include a
downstream DOC association then the agent must NOT generate an
OC-Supported-Features AVP.  The DOC Agent must relay/proxy the answer
message with no DOIC related change.


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      charset=ISO-8859-1">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">All,<br>
      <br>
      I believe that the current DOIC Endpoint behavior definition is
      not sufficiently defined, especially for agents.<br>
      <br>
      There was also a change introduced in the -01 version of the draft
      that implies that there can be a DOIC association that goes
      through a DOIC enabled agent.&nbsp; This was not&nbsp; how I understood
      endpoints.&nbsp; The original diagrams showed a DOIC agent as
      terminating an endpoint that came to it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I suspect there were
      different assumptions that lead to clearly different
      interpretations.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      I propose that we return to the original diagrams and add the
      wording below on how DOC agents behave.&nbsp; One way to look at this
      is that DOC agents act as back-to-back DOC endpoints.&nbsp; I
      intentionally don't say back-to-back Diameter endpoints because
      this does not impact anything except the handling of DOIC related
      AVPs.<br>
      <br>
      Note that I don't believe this requires any changes to Diameter
      clients or servers.&nbsp; I also don't believe this requires any
      changes to the contents of the DOIC related AVPs but there is an
      open question as to whether there is a need to indicate when a
      OC-Supported-Features AVP is generated or modified by an agent.<br>
      <br>
      I propose to add the following section to the section on
      capabilities announcement.&nbsp; I'll send a separate email proposing
      text to section 5.5 on how DOC agents are to behave. <br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
      -----<br>
      <br>
      5.3.1 DOC Agent handling of DOIC capability exchange.<br>
      <br>
      A DOC agent is defined as a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC
      extension.<br>
      <br>
      A DOC node is defined as a Diameter client, Diameter server or
      Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension.<br>
      <br>
      An downstream DOIC Association is defined as the association
      between the DOIC supporting Diameter entity that sends a Diameter
      request message to a DOC agent and the DOC agent.<br>
      <br>
      A upstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between
      a DOC agent and the Diameter entity to which the DOC agent sends
      the Diameter request message.&nbsp; The following illustrated the
      upstream and downstream concepts.<br>
      <br>
      &nbsp; DOC node &lt;--downstream DOIC association--&gt; DOC agent
      &lt;--upstream DOIC association--&gt; DOC&nbsp; node<br>
      &nbsp; Direction of request message for a transaction -----&gt;<br>
      &nbsp; Direction of answer message for a transaction &lt;-----<br>
      <br>
      Four scenarios must be supported:<br>
      <br>
      &nbsp; - Scenario 1 - There is both an upstream and downstream DOIC
      association.<br>
      &nbsp; - Scenario 2 - There is no upstream DOIC association<br>
      &nbsp; - Scenario 3 - There is no downstream DOIC association<br>
      &nbsp; - Scenario 4 - No DOIC association in either direction<br>
      <br>
      Scenario 1 - Both upstream and downstream DOIC associations<br>
      <br>
      Request message handling:<br>
      <br>
      A DOC agent that receives a request that contains the
      OC-Supported-Features AVP must act as an endpoint for the
      downstream DOIC association.<br>
      <br>
      If the DOC agent relays or proxies the request message then the
      agent must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed
      message.&nbsp; The contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must
      include, at a minimum, all of the content included in the received
      OC-Supported-Features AVP.&nbsp; If the agent does not support any
      additional features then the sent OC-Supported-Features AVP will
      remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.<br>
      <br>
      If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the
      received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must modify the
      OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.&nbsp;
      The modified OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the
      relayed request message.<br>
      <br>
      &nbsp; Note: any DOIC extension must define the changes needed to the
      OC-Feature-Vector AVP and any additional AVPs that need to be
      added to the OC-Supported-Features AVP as part of the capabilities
      advertisement for that feature.<br>
      <br>
      Question: Should there be an indication that the contents of the
      OC-Supported-Features AVP was changed?<br>
      <br>
      Question: Will this work when end-to-end security is introduced?&nbsp;
      Would adding a separate OC-Supported-Features AVP be better,
      especially when end-to-end security is considered?<br>
      <br>
      Answer message handling:<br>
      <br>
      When an agent receives the&nbsp; answer message that corresponds to the
      above request message, the agent must act as the DOIC endpoint for
      the upstream DOIC association.&nbsp; <br>
    </font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
        Roman, Times, serif">If the DOC agent relays or proxies the
        answer message then the agent must include an
        OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.&nbsp; The contents
        of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, all
        of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features
        AVP.&nbsp; If the agent does not support any additional features then
        the sent OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the
        received OC-Supported-Features AVP.<br>
        <br>
        If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in
        the received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent should
        modify the OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for
        those features.&nbsp; The modified OC-Supported Features AVP must be
        included in the relayed answer message.<br>
      </font><br>
      Scenario 2 - No downstream DOIC association with an upstream
      association<br>
      <br>
      In this case a request is received that does not contain an
      OC-Supported-Features AVP.<br>
      <br>
      Request message handling:<br>
      <br>
    </font><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
        New Roman, Times, serif">If a DOC agent receives a request that
        does NOT contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent
        must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the DOIC
        features supported by the DOC agent.&nbsp; The new
        OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the
        relayed/proxied request message.<br>
        <br>
        The agent will then become the reacting DOIC endpoint for the
        upstream DOIC association that results from the transaction.&nbsp; <br>
        <br>
        Note: Section x.x.x defines agent behavior when it is the
        reacting node for a DOIC association.<br>
        <br>
        Answer message handling<br>
        <br>
        In this case the answer message will contain an
        OC-Supported-Features AVP.&nbsp; The DOC agent must store the
        advertised capabilities for use when the DOC agent reacts to an
        overload report from the upstream Diameter node.<br>
        <br>
        The DOC agent should remove the OC-Supported-Features AVP from
        the answer message before relaying/proxying the answer message.&nbsp;
        <br>
        <br>
      </font>Scenario 3 - Downstream DOC association with no upstream
      DOIC association<br>
    </font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
        Roman, Times, serif">In this case a OC-Supported-Features AVP is
        received in the request from the downstream Diameter entity but
        no OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the answer message
        received from the upstream Diameter entity.&nbsp; In this case the
        agent must act as the reporting DOIC endpoint for the downstream
        DOIC association.<br>
      </font><br>
      Request message handling:<br>
      <br>
      Request message handling is the same as for scenario 1.<br>
      <br>
      Answer message handling:<br>
      <br>
      If a DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an
      OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that includes an
      upstream DOC association then the agent must generate an
      OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported
      by the DOC agent.&nbsp; The generation of this OC-Supported-Features
      AVP must also follow the rules specified in section 5.3.2.&nbsp; The
      new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the
      relayed/proxied the answer message.<br>
      <br>
    </font><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Scenario 4 - No
      upstream association and no downstream association<br>
      <br>
      Request message handling:<br>
      <br>
      The request message handling in this case is the same as scenario
      2.<br>
      <br>
      Answer message handling:<br>
      <br>
      If the DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain
      an OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that does not
      include a downstream DOC association then the agent must NOT
      generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP.&nbsp; The DOC Agent must
      relay/proxy the answer message with no DOIC related change.<br>
      <br>
    </font>
  </body>
</html>

--------------090502060007030709090101--

From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Tue Feb  4 00:04:56 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "srdonovan@usdonovans.com" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload
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Steve,

could you please explain why you propose to align in this direction?
I would have thougth that realm type reports apply only to requests that co=
ntain that realm but do not contain a destination-host.

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext dime issue track=
er
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 4:25 PM
To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] [dime] #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload

#23: DOIC behavior for realm overload

 This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01, which does not show up in the
 Component drop down menu.

 The current assumption in the -01 draft is inconsistent in the definition
 of behavior of behavior by a reacting node when it receives a realm
 overload report.

 Section 4.6 says overload treatment should apply to all request bound for
 the overloaded realm.

 Section 5.5.2 is not clear and there have been interpretations that a
 realm overload report only applies to requests that contain the realm and
 do not contain a destination-host AVP.

 Section 5.5.2 should be updated to be consistent with section 4.6.

--=20
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  srdonovan@usdonovans.com           |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/23>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Open issues with DOIC
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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 08:13:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Open issues with DOIC
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Steve,

thank you for your offer to enter tickets.

Please find a document attached that outlines some issues.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 9:31 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] Open issues with DOIC

All,

We have two weeks until the February 14 draft cutoff date for the London IE=
TF meeting.

We should attempt to have as many open issues resolved in a -02 draft as po=
ssible.

To this end, please open trouble tickets that can be used to track the issu=
es.  I have had to open the tickets against draft-docdt-dime-ovli, as draft=
-ietf-dime-doic does not show up as one of the components.

If you can't figure out how to enter the tickets (it requires a tools accou=
nt), I would be happy to enter the ticket for you.  Just send me an email o=
utlining the issue and, if appropriate, the proposed resolution.

So far we have the four trouble tickets that I have opened.  I suspect that=
 there are other issues still lingering from our discussions before the hol=
iday break.

Regards,

Steve


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></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">thank you =
for your offer to enter tickets.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please fin=
d a document attached that outlines some issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
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nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 31, 2014 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Open issues with DOIC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">All,<br>
<br>
We have two weeks until the February 14 draft cutoff date for the London IE=
TF meeting.<br>
<br>
We should attempt to have as many open issues resolved in a -02 draft as po=
ssible.<br>
<br>
To this end, please open trouble tickets that can be used to track the issu=
es.&nbsp; I have had to open the tickets against draft-docdt-dime-ovli, as =
draft-ietf-dime-doic does not show up as one of the components.<br>
<br>
If you can't figure out how to enter the tickets (it requires a tools accou=
nt), I would be happy to enter the ticket for you.&nbsp; Just send me an em=
ail outlining the issue and, if appropriate, the proposed resolution.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
So far we have the four trouble tickets that I have opened.&nbsp; I suspect=
 that there are other issues still lingering from our discussions before th=
e holiday break.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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--_004_5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B1D0CDEMUMBX014nsnin_--


From lionel.morand@orange.com  Tue Feb  4 00:39:03 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "ext Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Open issues with DOIC
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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 08:38:58 +0000
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Please use the tracker!
I will do it for you this time. So please wait for the tickets before answe=
ring to this mail.

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:14
=C0 : ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] Open issues with DOIC

Steve,

thank you for your offer to enter tickets.

Please find a document attached that outlines some issues.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 9:31 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] Open issues with DOIC

All,

We have two weeks until the February 14 draft cutoff date for the London IE=
TF meeting.

We should attempt to have as many open issues resolved in a -02 draft as po=
ssible.

To this end, please open trouble tickets that can be used to track the issu=
es.  I have had to open the tickets against draft-docdt-dime-ovli, as draft=
-ietf-dime-doic does not show up as one of the components.

If you can't figure out how to enter the tickets (it requires a tools accou=
nt), I would be happy to enter the ticket for you.  Just send me an email o=
utlining the issue and, if appropriate, the proposed resolution.

So far we have the four trouble tickets that I have opened.  I suspect that=
 there are other issues still lingering from our discussions before the hol=
iday break.

Regards,

Steve

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please use=
 the tracker!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I will do =
it for you this time. So please wait for the tickets before answering to th=
is mail.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:14<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Open issues with DOIC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">thank you =
for your offer to enter tickets.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please fin=
d a document attached that outlines some issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 31, 2014 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Open issues with DOIC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"DE">All=
,<br>
<br>
We have two weeks until the February 14 draft cutoff date for the London IE=
TF meeting.<br>
<br>
We should attempt to have as many open issues resolved in a -02 draft as po=
ssible.<br>
<br>
To this end, please open trouble tickets that can be used to track the issu=
es.&nbsp; I have had to open the tickets against draft-docdt-dime-ovli, as =
draft-ietf-dime-doic does not show up as one of the components.<br>
<br>
If you can't figure out how to enter the tickets (it requires a tools accou=
nt), I would be happy to enter the ticket for you.&nbsp; Just send me an em=
ail outlining the issue and, if appropriate, the proposed resolution.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
So far we have the four trouble tickets that I have opened.&nbsp; I suspect=
 that there are other issues still lingering from our discussions before th=
e holiday break.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</PRE></body>
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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
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#29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features

 According to the current definition of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in
 the -01 draft, the OC-Supported-Features AVP contains an OC-Sequence-
 Number AVP.
 The author of this document believes that OC-Sequence-Number within OC-
 Supported-Feature is  not needed, is useless and could be misleading and
 therefore proposes to remove OC-Sequence-Number from OC-Supported-Feature.

 The -01 draft says in clause 4.1:
    The OC-Sequence-Number AVP is used to indicate whether the contents
    of the OC-Supported-Features AVP has changed since last time the node
    included the OC-Supported-Features AVP (see Section 4.4).  Although
    sending the OC-Sequence-Number AVP is mandatory in the OC-Supported-
    Features AVP, the receiving node MAY always choose to ignore the
    sequence number if it can determine the feature support changes
    otherwise.

 The text seems to imply that the reporting DOIC endpoint, when receiving
 an application request message that contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP,
 needs to determine whether a feature support change occured (either by
 checking the value of the received sequence-number (probably) against a
 stored value, or by other unspecified means). However,  this is not
 correct. The reporting DOIC endpoint may  ignore the sequence-number even
 if it cannot determine whether or not a feature support change occured:
 The reporting DOIC endpoint simply takes the value of the OC-Feature-
 Vector as received in the request  into account (if absent the default
 value applies) when processing the request.  There is no need for the
 reporting DOIC endpoint to know whether a previous request contained the
 same or a different value in OC-Feature-Vector, i.e. whether there was a
 recent change.
 It has been argued that the reporting DOIC endpoint may (optionally)
 benefit from the presence of a Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-
 Features: The reporting DOIC endpoint may have stored the Sequence-Number
 and Feature-Vector as received in a previous request, and when receiving a
 new request the reporting DOIC endpoint would compare the received
 Sequence-Number from the new request  with the stored Sequence-Number;  If
 they match (i.e. no change of supported features occured) the reporting
 DOIC endpoint would ignore the received Feature-Vector from the new
 request and use the stored Feature-Vector for further processing; if they
 don't match (i.e. a change of supported features occured), the reporting
 DOIC endpoint would update the stored Sequence-Number and Feature-Vector
 with the received values from the new request and use the updated Feature-
 Vector for further processing. While it is debatable whether the described
 usecase is reasonable, the following issues have not been addressed:
 In configurations where the client does not support DOIC, an agent (A1) on
 a path from client to reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g. server) may take the
 role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
 in the (first) request message indicating its supported features.  A
 subsequent request message sent from the same client to the same server
 may take another path on which another agent (A2) takes the role of the
 reacting DOIC endpoint. A2 then inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP in
 the subsequent request message indicating its supported features (which
 may be different from A1's supported features but may have the same
 sequence number).  Since the reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g.server) - when
 receiving the subsequent request - cannot know whether the the reacting
 DOIC endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the
 subsequent request is identical to or different from the reacting DOIC
 endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the first request,
 it may frequently occure that the reporting DOIC endpoint receives request
 messages containing an OC-Supported-Features AVP with a Sequence-Number
 valuelower than the stored value (which may be interpreted as error), or
 equal to the stored value but with a different associated Feature Vector,
 or higher than the stored value but unmodified Feature Vector.

 In summary, the Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-Features is of no
 earthly use since the reporting DOIC endpoint cannot associate a received
 Sequence-Number (within OC-Supported-Features) with the identity of the
 reacting DOIC endpoint that sent the Sequence-Number.  Even when such
 association was possible by enhancing the OC-Supported-Features AVP with
 the Diameter Identity of the reacting DOIC endpoint that generated the
 Sequence-Number,  it would still simply not be needed as the reporting
 DOIC endpoint can base its processing on the received Feature-Vector
 (rather than on a stored Feature Vector).
 It is therefore proposed to remove the OC-Sequence-Number AVP from the OC-
 Supported Features AVP.

-- 
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                            |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                             |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli             |    Version:  2.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document                |   Keywords:
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/29>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

 According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in
 the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
 in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reacting
 DOIC endpoint.
 The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can do
 with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
 reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
 messages.
 Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
 A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other
 feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
 reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
 support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receiving
 an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:

 a) There is no overload
 b) DOIC is not supported

 The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these
 two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
 The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
    If there is no single matching
    capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
    DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
    messages with this specific reacting node.

 This however is inconsistent.
 The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
 recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
 Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a different
 path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
 supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the role
 of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since
 the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
 Supported-Features AVPs.
 In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-ietf-
 dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
 drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
 describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.

-- 
--------------------------------------+--------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
--------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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#31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a
throttling

 It has been proposed to define an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP that is
 to be included by the reacting DOIC endpoint in request messages that
 survived a throttling. This AVP would indicate the Sequence-Number
 (TimeStamp) of the OLR according to which the throttling (which was
 survived) is performed. Absence of this AVP indicates that currently no
 throttling is performed.  Reporting DOIC endpoints may use this
 information in order to detect whether there is a need to update the
 reacting DOIC endpoint with the latest OLR.
 Absence of this feedback mechanism would result in the need for the
 reporting node to send OC-OLR AVPs in every answer as the reporting DOIC
 endpoint cannot know whether the reacting DOIC endpoint is actually doing
 the right thing with regard to throttling/not throttling.
 The feedback mechanism improves robustness as it allows the reporting DOIC
 endpoint to detect and correct inappropriate throttling by the reacting
 DOIC endpoint (caused by whatever reason).
 The feedback mechanism also allows to address REQ 18 from RFC 7068.
 In summary it is proposed to define the OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP to
 be used in request messages that survived a throttling.

-- 
--------------------------------------+--------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
--------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/31>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Tue Feb  4 00:49:40 2014
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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
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#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

 The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
    From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
    related or correlated.

    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).


 With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out
 of sync (for whatever reason).
 It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP
 timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,
 and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception
 must be ignored by the reacting node.

-- 
--------------------------------------+--------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
--------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/32>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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#33: Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting
 DOIC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from
 different clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this
 requirement by adding two new report types (see below).

-- 
--------------------------------------+--------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
--------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/33>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Tue Feb  4 00:54:40 2014
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#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

 Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
 treatment of a given report type applies.
 Proposal:

    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
       for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.



    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

-- 
--------------------------------------+--------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
--------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/34>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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#35: additional report types are proposed

 With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33) two
 additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
 request
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
 request
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

-- 
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                            |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                             |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli             |    Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document                |   Keywords:
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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#35: additional report types are proposed

Changes (by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com):

 * reporter:  lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com => lionel.morand@orange.com


-- 
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:1>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From lionel.morand@orange.com  Tue Feb  4 01:10:30 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
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This makes sense.
I agree to remove it.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:46
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: [Dime] [dime] #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features

#29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features

 According to the current definition of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in
 the -01 draft, the OC-Supported-Features AVP contains an OC-Sequence-
 Number AVP.
 The author of this document believes that OC-Sequence-Number within OC-
 Supported-Feature is  not needed, is useless and could be misleading and
 therefore proposes to remove OC-Sequence-Number from OC-Supported-Feature.

 The -01 draft says in clause 4.1:
    The OC-Sequence-Number AVP is used to indicate whether the contents
    of the OC-Supported-Features AVP has changed since last time the node
    included the OC-Supported-Features AVP (see Section 4.4).  Although
    sending the OC-Sequence-Number AVP is mandatory in the OC-Supported-
    Features AVP, the receiving node MAY always choose to ignore the
    sequence number if it can determine the feature support changes
    otherwise.

 The text seems to imply that the reporting DOIC endpoint, when receiving
 an application request message that contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP,
 needs to determine whether a feature support change occured (either by
 checking the value of the received sequence-number (probably) against a
 stored value, or by other unspecified means). However,  this is not
 correct. The reporting DOIC endpoint may  ignore the sequence-number even
 if it cannot determine whether or not a feature support change occured:
 The reporting DOIC endpoint simply takes the value of the OC-Feature-
 Vector as received in the request  into account (if absent the default
 value applies) when processing the request.  There is no need for the
 reporting DOIC endpoint to know whether a previous request contained the
 same or a different value in OC-Feature-Vector, i.e. whether there was a
 recent change.
 It has been argued that the reporting DOIC endpoint may (optionally)
 benefit from the presence of a Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-
 Features: The reporting DOIC endpoint may have stored the Sequence-Number
 and Feature-Vector as received in a previous request, and when receiving a
 new request the reporting DOIC endpoint would compare the received
 Sequence-Number from the new request  with the stored Sequence-Number;  If
 they match (i.e. no change of supported features occured) the reporting
 DOIC endpoint would ignore the received Feature-Vector from the new
 request and use the stored Feature-Vector for further processing; if they
 don't match (i.e. a change of supported features occured), the reporting
 DOIC endpoint would update the stored Sequence-Number and Feature-Vector
 with the received values from the new request and use the updated Feature-
 Vector for further processing. While it is debatable whether the described
 usecase is reasonable, the following issues have not been addressed:
 In configurations where the client does not support DOIC, an agent (A1) on
 a path from client to reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g. server) may take the
 role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
 in the (first) request message indicating its supported features.  A
 subsequent request message sent from the same client to the same server
 may take another path on which another agent (A2) takes the role of the
 reacting DOIC endpoint. A2 then inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP in
 the subsequent request message indicating its supported features (which
 may be different from A1's supported features but may have the same
 sequence number).  Since the reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g.server) - when
 receiving the subsequent request - cannot know whether the the reacting
 DOIC endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the
 subsequent request is identical to or different from the reacting DOIC
 endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the first request,
 it may frequently occure that the reporting DOIC endpoint receives request
 messages containing an OC-Supported-Features AVP with a Sequence-Number
 valuelower than the stored value (which may be interpreted as error), or
 equal to the stored value but with a different associated Feature Vector,
 or higher than the stored value but unmodified Feature Vector.

 In summary, the Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-Features is of no
 earthly use since the reporting DOIC endpoint cannot associate a received
 Sequence-Number (within OC-Supported-Features) with the identity of the
 reacting DOIC endpoint that sent the Sequence-Number.  Even when such
 association was possible by enhancing the OC-Supported-Features AVP with
 the Diameter Identity of the reacting DOIC endpoint that generated the
 Sequence-Number,  it would still simply not be needed as the reporting
 DOIC endpoint can base its processing on the received Feature-Vector
 (rather than on a stored Feature Vector).
 It is therefore proposed to remove the OC-Sequence-Number AVP from the OC-
 Supported Features AVP.

--=20
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                            |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                             |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli             |    Version:  2.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document                |   Keywords:
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/29>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Dime] DIME London agenda
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Folks,

London IETF is getting closer and it is time to get up with
the meeting agenda. We will, of course, spend time on the
current working group documents (overload, security, ..). If
you feel like presenting something and need a time slot
just email the chairs with the topic + time wish you have
in mind.

- Jouni & Lionel

From srdonovan@usdonovans.com  Tue Feb  4 05:29:11 2014
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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2014 07:29:06 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: [Dime] DOIC endpoint behavior - Agent Overload Report handling
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------040207030101090600060409
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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The following wording is proposed to be added to section 5.5 on Overload
Report Processing.

This goes along with the proposed wording for agent involvement in
capability exchange.

The most important piece of behavior proposed is for the case when the
agent is a back-to-back DOIC association agent as illustrated here:

  DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream DOIC
association--> DOC  node

In this case, it is proposed that when the DOC agent receives a host or
realm overload report the DOC agent simply passes it on without taking
further action.  The goal being to do the overload abatement as close to
the source of the request as possible.

The text isn't perfect yet, but I wanted to get the basic behavior
proposal across.

Regards,

Steve

5.5.4 Agent Considerations

As discussed in section x.x.x, agents can take on the role of reporting
node and reacting node.

Agent as reporting node

A DOC agent will take on the role of a reporting node any time that
there is a downstream DOIC association.

For the report types supporting in this document, an agent should only
originate an overload report in two cases:

- When the agent is acting as overload authority for a set of servers. 
In this case, requests are sent to the destination-host of the agent and
the agent is responsible for reporting on the overload state when the
server farm represented by that destination-host value is entering an
overloaded condition.

- When the agent is acting as overload authority for a realm.  In this
case, the agent is responsible for inserting realm based overload
reports into answer messages from servers in that realm.

Agent as reacting node

An agent will take on the role of a reacting node whenever there is an
upstream DOIC association.  In this case, the agent will be reacting to
host overload reports.

The behavior of the agent acting as a reacting node depends on whether
or not there is a downstream association.

If there is a downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent should pass
any overload report on to the downstream Diameter node without taking
any further action.

  Note: This is based on the assumption that it is best to handle the
overload instance as close to the source of the Diameter transaction as
possible.

  Note: This is not a must because there could be operator specific
policies that result in handling of the overload condition in the agent.

If there is no downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent is
responsible for handling the overload condition.  In this case the DOC
agent must throttle requests targeted for the host or realm indicated in
the overload report.  The method used should be consistent with the
considerations outlined in section 5.5.2.

When a request message is selected for throttling, the DOC agent must
generate the appropriate error response message.

Editors note: the error message to be sent is TBD.

--------------040207030101090600060409
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">The following wording is
      proposed to be added to section 5.5 on Overload Report Processing.<br>
      <br>
      This goes along with the proposed wording for agent involvement in
      capability exchange.<br>
      <br>
      The most important piece of behavior proposed is for the case when
      the agent is a back-to-back DOIC association agent as illustrated
      here:<br>
    </font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
        Roman, Times, serif">&nbsp; DOC node &lt;--downstream DOIC
        association--&gt; DOC agent &lt;--upstream DOIC
        association--&gt; DOC&nbsp; node</font><br>
      <br>
      In this case, it is proposed that when the DOC agent receives a
      host or realm overload report the DOC agent simply passes it on
      without taking further action.&nbsp; The goal being to do the overload
      abatement as close to the source of the request as possible.<br>
      <br>
      The text isn't perfect yet, but I wanted to get the basic behavior
      proposal across.<br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
      5.5.4 Agent Considerations<br>
      <br>
      As discussed in section x.x.x, agents can take on the role of
      reporting node and reacting node.<br>
      <br>
      Agent as reporting node<br>
      <br>
      A DOC agent will take on the role of a reporting node any time
      that there is a downstream DOIC association.<br>
      <br>
      For the report types supporting in this document, an agent should
      only originate an overload report in two cases:<br>
      <br>
      - When the agent is acting as overload authority for a set of
      servers.&nbsp; In this case, requests are sent to the destination-host
      of the agent and the agent is responsible for reporting on the
      overload state when the server farm represented by that
      destination-host value is entering an overloaded condition.<br>
      <br>
      - When the agent is acting as overload authority for a realm.&nbsp; In
      this case, the agent is responsible for inserting realm based
      overload reports into answer messages from servers in that realm.<br>
      <br>
      Agent as reacting node<br>
      <br>
      An agent will take on the role of a reacting node whenever there
      is an upstream DOIC association.&nbsp; In this case, the agent will be
      reacting to host overload reports.<br>
      <br>
      The behavior of the agent acting as a reacting node depends on
      whether or not there is a downstream association.<br>
      <br>
      If there is a downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent
      should pass any overload report on to the downstream Diameter node
      without taking any further action.<br>
      <br>
      &nbsp; Note: This is based on the assumption that it is best to handle
      the overload instance as close to the source of the Diameter
      transaction as possible.<br>
      <br>
      &nbsp; Note: This is not a must because there could be operator
      specific policies that result in handling of the overload
      condition in the agent.<br>
      <br>
      If there is no downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent is
      responsible for handling the overload condition.&nbsp; In this case the
      DOC agent must throttle requests targeted for the host or realm
      indicated in the overload report.&nbsp; The method used should be
      consistent with the considerations outlined in section 5.5.2.<br>
      <br>
      When a request message is selected for throttling, the DOC agent
      must generate the appropriate error response message.<br>
      <br>
      Editors note: the error message to be sent is TBD.<br>
    </font>
  </body>
</html>

--------------040207030101090600060409--

From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Tue Feb  4 05:43:46 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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Steve,

please find comments inline.

Regards
Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 12:55 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange

All,

I believe that the current DOIC Endpoint behavior definition is not suffici=
ently defined, especially for agents.
<Ulrich> I agree. </Ulrich>

There was also a change introduced in the -01 version of the draft that imp=
lies that there can be a DOIC association that goes through a DOIC enabled =
agent.=A0 This was not=A0 how I understood endpoints.
<Ulrich> same with me </Ulrich>=A0 The original diagrams showed a DOIC agen=
t as terminating an endpoint that came to it.=A0=A0=A0 I suspect there were=
 different assumptions that lead to clearly different interpretations.=A0=20

I propose that we return to the original diagrams and add the wording below=
 on how DOC agents behave.=A0 One way to look at this is that DOC agents ac=
t as back-to-back DOC endpoints.=A0 I intentionally don't say back-to-back =
Diameter endpoints because this does not impact anything except the handlin=
g of DOIC related AVPs.

Note that I don't believe this requires any changes to Diameter clients or =
servers.=A0 I also don't believe this requires any changes to the contents =
of the DOIC related AVPs but there is an open question as to whether there =
is a need to indicate when a OC-Supported-Features AVP is generated or modi=
fied by an agent.

I propose to add the following section to the section on capabilities annou=
ncement.=A0 I'll send a separate email proposing text to section 5.5 on how=
 DOC agents are to behave.=20

Regards,

Steve

-----

5.3.1 DOC Agent handling of DOIC capability exchange.

A DOC agent is defined as a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension=
.
<Ulrich> A Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension is not necessari=
ly taking the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint.
It only takes the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint when receiving a request=
 that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.
Similarily a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extensions is not necess=
arily taking the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint.
It only takes the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint when receiving a realm =
type request (not containing a destination host) that contains an OC-Suppor=
ted-Features AVP while it is configured to act as a reporting DOIC endpoint=
 for that realm. </Ulrich>

A DOC node is defined as a Diameter client, Diameter server or Diameter age=
nt that supports the DOIC extension
<Ulrich> and decided to take the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and/or re=
porting DOIC endpoint </Ulrich>.

An downstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between the DO=
IC supporting Diameter entity that sends a Diameter request message to a DO=
C agent and the DOC agent.

A upstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between a DOC age=
nt and the Diameter entity to which the DOC agent sends the Diameter reques=
t message.=A0 The following illustrated the upstream and downstream concept=
s.

=A0 DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream DOIC a=
ssociation--> DOC=A0 node
=A0 Direction of request message for a transaction ----->
=A0 Direction of answer message for a transaction <-----
<Ulrich> this depends on the point of view: one node's downstream DOIC asso=
ciation is another node's upstream DOIC association. </Ulrich>
<Ulrich> The general case is:

+---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                 =
         +--------+                +--------+
| client  |      | A1      |     | A2     |     | A3     |                 =
         | A4     |                | server |
| no DOIC |      | no DOIC |     | DOIC   |     | DOIC   |                 =
         | DOIC   |                | DOIC   |
| support |      | support |     | support|     | support|                 =
         | support|                | support|=20
+---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                 =
         +--------+                +--------+
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |<---DOIC association 1---------------=
---------->|<-------DOIC association 2-->|
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |<-----------------DOIC association 3-=
---------------------------------------->|
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |----1.xxR------->|---2.xxR----->|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |---3.xxR----->|----4.xxR-------------=
---------->|                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |--------5.xxR--------------->|=20
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |<-------6.xxA----------------|
    |                 |              |<--8.xxA------|<---7.xxA-------------=
-----------|                             |
    |<---10.xxA-------|<--9.xxA------|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |----11.xxR------>|---12.xxR---->|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |---13.xxR---->|-----14.xxR-----------=
---------->|-------15.xxR--------------->|
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |<---18.xxA----|<----17.xxA-----------=
-----------|<-----16.xxA-----------------|
    |<---20.xxA-------|<---19.xxA----|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
DOIC association 1 is for realm type requests;=20
DOIC association 2 is for request for which A4 selects the server
DOIC association 3 is for host type requests

1. the client that does not support DOIC sends 1.xxR (realm type request no=
t containing destination host) to the next hop; 1.xxR does not contain an O=
C-Supported-Features AVP
2. the agent A1 that does not support DOIC forwards the request to the next=
 hop; 2.xxR still dos not contain an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
3. the agent A2 that supports DOIC decides to take the role of a reacting e=
ndpoint; it inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP into 3.xxR indicating supp=
ort of features 1 and 2 (in this example).
4. agent A3, although it supports DOIC, does not take the role of a reactin=
g endpoint (because 3.xxR contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP); it also d=
oes not take the role of a reporting endpoint since it is not configured to=
 act as reporting endpoint for the destination realm received in 3.xxR; 4.x=
xR (unmodified) is sent to the next hop.
5. agent A4 is configured to take the role of the reporting endpoint for th=
e realm. It therefore removes the OC-Supported-Features AVP reveived in 4.x=
xR and inserts its own supported features (in this example features 1 and 3=
) in 5.xxR. A4 also selects the server to which 5.xxR is sent.
6. the server (that supports DOIC e.g. features 1 and 3) returns 6.xxA incl=
uding an OLR1 (host type) requesting a feature 3 specific traffic reduction=
 (e.g. window size 20).=20
7. A4 calculates the overall realm overload level, removes the received OLR=
1 and adds its own calculated realm type OLR2 (e.g. a feature 1 specific tr=
affic reduction of 50%-loss) to 7.xxA. A4 stores OLR1 for later use.
8. A3 not taking any DOIC role forwards the answer unmodified.
9. agent A2 may remove the reveived OLR2 when sending 9.xxA. A2 stores OLR2=
 for later use.
10. A1 not supporting DOIC is transparent.
11. client sends a new request 11.xxR (containing destination host as learn=
d from 10.xxA; no OC-Supported-Features AVP included.
12. A1 is transparent.
13. A2 decides to take the role of the reacting endpoint and includes again=
 its supported features 1 and 2 in OC-Supported-Features AVO sent within 13=
.xxR.
14. A3 is transparent
15. A4 is transparent for host type requests that contain an OC-Supported-F=
eatures AVP.
16. server returns 16.xxA including a host type OLR3 requesting a feature 1=
 specific traffic reduction of e.g. 30%-loss.
17. A4 is transparent
18. A3 is transparent
19. A2 stores OLR3 for later use and may remove OLR3 when sending 19.xxA.
20. client receives 20.xxA.
</Ulrich>

Four scenarios must be supported:

=A0 - Scenario 1 - There is both an upstream and downstream DOIC associatio=
n.
<Ulrich> for example see A4 in the figure above </Ulrich>
=A0 - Scenario 2 - There is no upstream DOIC association
<Ulrich> do you mean "There is a downstream DOIC association but no upstrea=
m DOIC association"? Not covered in the figure above. </Ulrich>
=A0 - Scenario 3 - There is no downstream DOIC association
<Ulrich> do you mean "There is an upstream DOIC association but no downstre=
am DOIC association"? for example see A2 in the figure above </Ulrich>=20
=A0 - Scenario 4 - No DOIC association in either direction
<Ulrich> for example see A3 in the figure above </Ulrich>

Scenario 1 - Both upstream and downstream DOIC associations

Request message handling:

A DOC agent that receives a request that contains the OC-Supported-Features=
 AVP must act as an endpoint for the downstream DOIC association.
<Ulrich> NO! see A3 receiving 3.xxR or 13.xxR (this may not be scenario 1, =
but how does the agent know which scenario applies?)</Ulrich>

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the request message then the agent must =
include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.=A0 The content=
s of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, all of the c=
ontent included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.=A0 If the agent =
does not support any additional features then the sent OC-Supported-Feature=
s AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.
<Ulrich>There cannot be more than one OC-Supported-Features AVPs in one req=
uest. An agent that inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP must remove the re=
ceived OC-Supported-Features AVP (see A4 when sending 5.xxR). The inserted =
OC-Supported Features AVP shall indicate the features the inserting node su=
pports, not more, not less</Ulrich>

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must modify the OC-Supported-Featu=
res AVP to indicate support for those features.=A0 The modified OC-Supporte=
d-Features AVP must be included in the relayed request message.

=A0 Note: any DOIC extension must define the changes needed to the OC-Featu=
re-Vector AVP and any additional AVPs that need to be added to the OC-Suppo=
rted-Features AVP as part of the capabilities advertisement for that featur=
e.

Question: Should there be an indication that the contents of the OC-Support=
ed-Features AVP was changed?
<Ulrich> no. for what reason? </Ulrich>

Question: Will this work when end-to-end security is introduced?=A0 Would a=
dding a separate OC-Supported-Features AVP be better, especially when end-t=
o-end security is considered?
<Ulrich> what is the issue? </Ulrich>

Answer message handling:

When an agent receives the=A0 answer message that corresponds to the above =
request message
<Ulrich> i.e. the request message into which the agent has inserted its OC-=
Supported-Features AVP </Ulrich>
, the agent must act as the DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC association=
.=A0=20

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the answer message then the agent must i=
nclude an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.
<Ulrich> OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages is an open issue </Ul=
rich>
=A0 The contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimu=
m, all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.=
=A0 If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent OC-=
Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP.

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent should modify the OC-Supported-Fea=
tures AVP to indicate support for those features.=A0 The modified OC-Suppor=
ted Features AVP must be included in the relayed answer message.

Scenario 2 - No downstream DOIC association with an upstream association
<Ulrich> wasn't that scenario 3? </Ulrich>

In this case a request is received that does not contain an OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP.

Request message handling:

If a DOC agent receives a request that does NOT contain an OC-Supported-Fea=
tures AVP then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflect=
ing the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.=A0 The new OC-Supported-F=
eatures AVP must be included in the relayed/proxied request message.

The agent will then become the reacting DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC=
 association that results from the transaction.=A0=20

Note: Section x.x.x defines agent behavior when it is the reacting node for=
 a DOIC association.

Answer message handling

In this case the answer message will contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.=
=A0 The DOC agent must store the advertised capabilities for use when the D=
OC agent reacts to an overload report from the upstream Diameter node.

The DOC agent should remove the OC-Supported-Features AVP from the answer m=
essage before relaying/proxying the answer message.=A0=20

Scenario 3 - Downstream DOC association with no upstream DOIC association
<Ulrich> wasn't this scenario 2? </Ulrich>

In this case a OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the request from th=
e downstream Diameter entity but no OC-Supported-Features AVP is received i=
n the answer message received from the upstream Diameter entity.=A0 In this=
 case the agent must act as the reporting DOIC endpoint for the downstream =
DOIC association.
<Ulrich> this is totally new to me. Where does this come from? If a server =
does not support DOIC it cannot request load reduction from a downstream ag=
ent. The downstream agent (even if it would detect the DOIC-non-support of =
the server) cannot request load reduction from further downstream nodes on =
behalf of the server </Ulrich>

Request message handling:

Request message handling is the same as for scenario 1.

Answer message handling:

If a DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Suppo=
rted-Features AVP for a transaction that includes an upstream DOC associati=
on then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the=
 DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.=A0 The generation of this OC-Sup=
ported-Features AVP must also follow the rules specified in section 5.3.2.=
=A0 The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed/proxi=
ed the answer message.

Scenario 4 - No upstream association and no downstream association

Request message handling:

The request message handling in this case is the same as scenario 2.

Answer message handling:

If the DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Sup=
ported-Features AVP for a transaction that does not include a downstream DO=
C association then the agent must NOT generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP=
.=A0 The DOC Agent must relay/proxy the answer message with no DOIC related=
 change.

<Ulrich> the open issue seems to be: How can an agent determine which scena=
rio is applicable? Let me try:
An agent that does not support DOIC is always in scenario 4 (no upstream DO=
IC association, no downstream DOIC association).
For an agent that supports DOIC:
When receiving a request that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP=
 the agent is in scenario 3 or 4 (no downstream DOIC association). Whether =
its 3 or 4 depends on whether or not an OLR is received in the correspondin=
g answer.
When receiving a host type request (a request that contains a Destination-H=
ost AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP the agent is in scenario=
 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association)
When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Dest=
ination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent i=
s configured to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is scenario=
 1 or 2 (there is a downstream DOIC association). Whether its 1 or 2 depend=
s on whether or not an OLR is received in the corresponding answer.
When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Dest=
ination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent i=
s configured not to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is in s=
cenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association). <=
/Ulrich>






From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Tue Feb  4 06:55:45 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] DOIC endpoint behavior - Agent Overload Report handling
Thread-Index: AQHPIa0b5xTwkmMKqUKKoWnk7AazK5qlHm7Q
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 14:55:40 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC endpoint behavior - Agent Overload Report handling
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Steve,
my understanding is different.

How would it be possible that the DOC agent that has both upstream and down=
stream DOIC associations receives a realm overload report?
A host overload report received by the DOC agent on the DOC agent's upstrea=
m DOIC association will be consistent with the supported features  advertis=
ed by the DOC agent on the DOC agent's upstream DOIC association but it wil=
l not necessarily be consistent with the supported features adverised by th=
e DOC node on the DOC agent's downstream DOIC association. Actually there m=
ay not be a single supported feature in common to both associations. Theref=
ore it makes no sense to simply pass the OLR across associations. The DOC a=
gent should rather aggregate all received OLRs on all its upstream associat=
ions and transform the aggregation into a format the downstream DOC node un=
derstands (i.e. consistent with the supported features advertised on the DO=
C agent's downstream DOIC association).

Regards
Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 2:29 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] DOIC endpoint behavior - Agent Overload Report handling

The following wording is proposed to be added to section 5.5 on Overload Re=
port Processing.

This goes along with the proposed wording for agent involvement in capabili=
ty exchange.

The most important piece of behavior proposed is for the case when the agen=
t is a back-to-back DOIC association agent as illustrated here:

=A0 DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream DOIC a=
ssociation--> DOC=A0 node

In this case, it is proposed that when the DOC agent receives a host or rea=
lm overload report the DOC agent simply passes it on without taking further=
 action.=A0 The goal being to do the overload abatement as close to the sou=
rce of the request as possible.

The text isn't perfect yet, but I wanted to get the basic behavior proposal=
 across.

Regards,

Steve

5.5.4 Agent Considerations

As discussed in section x.x.x, agents can take on the role of reporting nod=
e and reacting node.

Agent as reporting node

A DOC agent will take on the role of a reporting node any time that there i=
s a downstream DOIC association.

For the report types supporting in this document, an agent should only orig=
inate an overload report in two cases:

- When the agent is acting as overload authority for a set of servers.=A0 I=
n this case, requests are sent to the destination-host of the agent and the=
 agent is responsible for reporting on the overload state when the server f=
arm represented by that destination-host value is entering an overloaded co=
ndition. <Ulrich> In this case the overload report generated by the agent i=
s of host-type </Ulrich>

- When the agent is acting as overload authority for a realm.=A0 In this ca=
se, the agent is responsible for inserting realm based overload reports int=
o answer messages from servers in that realm.

<Ulrich> In both cases the agent MUST remove OC-OLR AVPs from answer messag=
es received from servers of the server farm / servers in the realm.</Ulrich=
>

Agent as reacting node

An agent will take on the role of a reacting node whenever there is an upst=
ream DOIC association.=A0 In this case, the agent will be reacting to host =
overload reports.

The behavior of the agent acting as a reacting node depends on whether or n=
ot there is a downstream association.

If there is a downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent should pass an=
y overload report on to the downstream Diameter node without taking any fur=
ther action.

=A0 Note: This is based on the assumption that it is best to handle the ove=
rload instance as close to the source of the Diameter transaction as possib=
le.

=A0 Note: This is not a must because there could be operator specific polic=
ies that result in handling of the overload condition in the agent.

If there is no downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent is responsibl=
e for handling the overload condition.=A0 In this case the DOC agent must t=
hrottle requests targeted for the host or realm indicated in the overload r=
eport.=A0 The method used should be consistent with the considerations outl=
ined in section 5.5.2.

When a request message is selected for throttling, the DOC agent must gener=
ate the appropriate error response message.

Editors note: the error message to be sent is TBD.

From lionel.morand@orange.com  Tue Feb  4 07:01:09 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 15:37:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33) two
> additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting
 DOIC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from
 different clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this
 requirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
 request
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
 request
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

-- 
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #33: Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client
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#33: Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client

Changes (by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => duplicate


Comment:

 This is included in ticket#35

-- 
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  closed
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:  duplicate
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/33#comment:1>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 17:12:33 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Tue Feb  4 09:18:28 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
Thread-Index: AQHPIb9MiABLhdXq2UOcuMVjS/8sh5qlVdmQ
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 17:18:24 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33) two
> additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting
 DOIC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from
 different clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this
 requirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
 request
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the
 request
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <25535_1391528227_52F10923_25535_243_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4771BD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within	OC-OLR
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 04:35:06 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Same view as Lionel below.
New report types seem more confusing than adding value.

The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (an=
d hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific=
" report and it insert into the message.
No need to define new report types for achieving this.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc=
=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=
 are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
> two additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DO=
IC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different =
clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  re=
quirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Hi Lionel, Nirav,

your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacting=
 node.

In a configuration like this


+-------+
| C1    |          +------+
|       |----------|  A   |               +------+
+-------+          |      |               | S    |
                   |      |---------------|      |
+-------+          |      |               +------+
| C2    |----------|      |
|       |          +------+
+-------+
where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes the =
role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is diff=
erent. According to the current version of the draft this will result in bi=
g mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50% r=
eduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2.=20

Best regards
Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Same view as Lionel below.
New report types seem more confusing than adding value.

The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (an=
d hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific=
" report and it insert into the message.
No need to define new report types for achieving this.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc=
=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=
 are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
> two additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DO=
IC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different =
clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  re=
quirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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Thank you.

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From nsalot@cisco.com  Wed Feb  5 01:03:17 2014
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
Thread-Index: AQHPIb89eXJ9DV5yh0O/JvsvYrZiTpqlu04AgABay3CAAKqNgP//nHVw
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References: <066.5bacdffbc40a388af99a5b9c8e0b2d88@trac.tools.ietf.org> <081.72db5756df1220c7d22a82469b92ce52@trac.tools.ietf.org> <5522_1391534304_52F120E0_5522_8615_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4775B3@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62ACC@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B1FA3@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Ulrich,

I do not think so.
If we believe that there should be host-specific OLR and if we want to supp=
ort the model when the agent acts as reacting node (on behalf of the client=
(s)), then the agents are naturally required to store OLR per client/host b=
ehind the agent (based on the destination-host AVP in the answer message).

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 2:24 PM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Hi Lionel, Nirav,

your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacting=
 node.

In a configuration like this


+-------+
| C1    |          +------+
|       |----------|  A   |               +------+
+-------+          |      |               | S    |
                   |      |---------------|      |
+-------+          |      |               +------+
| C2    |----------|      |
|       |          +------+
+-------+
where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes the =
role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is diff=
erent. According to the current version of the draft this will result in bi=
g mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50% r=
eduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2.=20

Best regards
Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Same view as Lionel below.
New report types seem more confusing than adding value.

The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (an=
d hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific=
" report and it insert into the message.
No need to define new report types for achieving this.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc=
=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=
 are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
> two additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DO=
IC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different =
clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  re=
quirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou =
copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez=
 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to=
ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used=
 or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Wed Feb  5 01:32:13 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:32:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Nirav,
... and this natural requirement is missing from the current draft.

To address this requirement we could replace the descriptions for report ty=
pes 0 and 1 with the decriptions of my proposed report types 2 and 3 respec=
tively.

As a consquence, however, the agent in the given example configuration woul=
d have to store always OLRs per client even when S wants all clients to do =
the same throttling. Would that be acceptable?

Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 10:03 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.or=
g
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Ulrich,

I do not think so.
If we believe that there should be host-specific OLR and if we want to supp=
ort the model when the agent acts as reacting node (on behalf of the client=
(s)), then the agents are naturally required to store OLR per client/host b=
ehind the agent (based on the destination-host AVP in the answer message).

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 2:24 PM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Hi Lionel, Nirav,

your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacting=
 node.

In a configuration like this


+-------+
| C1    |          +------+
|       |----------|  A   |               +------+
+-------+          |      |               | S    |
                   |      |---------------|      |
+-------+          |      |               +------+
| C2    |----------|      |
|       |          +------+
+-------+
where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes the =
role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is diff=
erent. According to the current version of the draft this will result in bi=
g mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50% r=
eduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2.=20

Best regards
Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Same view as Lionel below.
New report types seem more confusing than adding value.

The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (an=
d hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific=
" report and it insert into the message.
No need to define new report types for achieving this.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc=
=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=
 are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
> two additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DO=
IC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different =
clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  re=
quirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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inline

On 2/5/14 7:57 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Ok then let's state that reporting nodes MUST insert an OC-OLR AVP in all answer messages that correspond to request messages which contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP (even when no load reduction is requested).
SRD> Why in every answer message?  Shouldn't lack of an OLR be
interpreted as not overloaded?
>
> Other criteria like REQ18 or REQ13 do not seem to matter.
SRD> Requiring an overload report in every answer does directly break
REQ13, but requiring an overloaded node to look for an
OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every message is also substantial
additional work, potentially more expensive than inserting OLRs.
>
> For my clarification: I guess that the reacting node is not required to process every single OLR received (most will be replays anyway). What would be the procedure in the reacting node in order to minimize processing of replayed OLRs and at the same time minimize the risk too miss a new OLR?
SRD> That is the purpose of the sequence number. 
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:27 AM
> To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> I share the same opinion as Lionel.
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 9:07 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> I understand that the real concern is when the reporting node DOES NOT insert the OLR in every answer. 
> So the options would be:
> 1- OC-OLR AVP in every answer
> 2- OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every request + OC-OLR AVP in some answer when the current throttling performed by the client needs to be updated.
>
> If there is no other criterion, the option 1 seems the best approach.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> EnvoyÃ© : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:49
> Ã€ : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  It has been proposed to define an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP that is  to be included by the reacting DOIC endpoint in request messages that  survived a throttling. This AVP would indicate the Sequence-Number
>  (TimeStamp) of the OLR according to which the throttling (which was
>  survived) is performed. Absence of this AVP indicates that currently no  throttling is performed.  Reporting DOIC endpoints may use this  information in order to detect whether there is a need to update the  reacting DOIC endpoint with the latest OLR.
>  Absence of this feedback mechanism would result in the need for the  reporting node to send OC-OLR AVPs in every answer as the reporting DOIC  endpoint cannot know whether the reacting DOIC endpoint is actually doing  the right thing with regard to throttling/not throttling.
>  The feedback mechanism improves robustness as it allows the reporting DOIC  endpoint to detect and correct inappropriate throttling by the reacting  DOIC endpoint (caused by whatever reason).
>  The feedback mechanism also allows to address REQ 18 from RFC 7068.
>  In summary it is proposed to define the OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP to  be used in request messages that survived a throttling.
>


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">inline<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/5/14 7:57 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
      DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2153@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Ok then let's state that reporting nodes MUST insert an OC-OLR AVP in all answer messages that correspond to request messages which contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP (even when no load reduction is requested).</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Why in every answer message?Â  Shouldn't lack of an OLR be
    interpreted as not overloaded?<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2153@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

Other criteria like REQ18 or REQ13 do not seem to matter.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Requiring an overload report in every answer does directly
    break REQ13, but requiring an overloaded node to look for an
    OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every message is also substantial
    additional work, potentially more expensive than inserting OLRs.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2153@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

For my clarification: I guess that the reacting node is not required to process every single OLR received (most will be replays anyway). What would be the procedure in the reacting node in order to minimize processing of replayed OLRs and at the same time minimize the risk too miss a new OLR?</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; That is the purpose of the sequence number.Â  <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2153@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:27 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

I share the same opinion as Lionel.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 9:07 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

I understand that the real concern is when the reporting node DOES NOT insert the OLR in every answer. 
So the options would be:
1- OC-OLR AVP in every answer
2- OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every request + OC-OLR AVP in some answer when the current throttling performed by the client needs to be updated.

If there is no other criterion, the option 1 seems the best approach.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
DeÂ : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]
EnvoyÃ©Â : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:49
Ã€Â : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
CcÂ : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
ObjetÂ : [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

#31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

 It has been proposed to define an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP that is  to be included by the reacting DOIC endpoint in request messages that  survived a throttling. This AVP would indicate the Sequence-Number
 (TimeStamp) of the OLR according to which the throttling (which was
 survived) is performed. Absence of this AVP indicates that currently no  throttling is performed.  Reporting DOIC endpoints may use this  information in order to detect whether there is a need to update the  reacting DOIC endpoint with the latest OLR.
 Absence of this feedback mechanism would result in the need for the  reporting node to send OC-OLR AVPs in every answer as the reporting DOIC  endpoint cannot know whether the reacting DOIC endpoint is actually doing  the right thing with regard to throttling/not throttling.
 The feedback mechanism improves robustness as it allows the reporting DOIC  endpoint to detect and correct inappropriate throttling by the reacting  DOIC endpoint (caused by whatever reason).
 The feedback mechanism also allows to address REQ 18 from RFC 7068.
 In summary it is proposed to define the OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP to  be used in request messages that survived a throttling.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------000401090701060506020005--

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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within	OC-OLR
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How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision. 
There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should
be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.

Steve

On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
> I also agree.
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>
> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>
> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> EnvoyÃ© : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:50
> Ã€ : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>
> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>
>  The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>     From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>     be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>     control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>     is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>     required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>     Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>     sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>     related or correlated.
>
>     When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>     greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>     endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>     NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>
>
>  With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>  It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">How the sequence number
      is implemented is an implementation decision.Â  There is no reason
      to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.Â  That should be included
      only as one way of addressing the requirement.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot
      (nsalot) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A4B@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I also agree.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!

In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
DeÂ : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]
EnvoyÃ©Â : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:50
Ã€Â : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
CcÂ : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
ObjetÂ : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

 The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
    From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
    related or correlated.

    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).


 With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
 It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.

</pre>
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Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 08:56:21 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests
targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies
that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.

If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the
interaction between realm reports and host reports.

I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host
second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of
realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the
reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host
that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.

Steve

On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.
>
> Does it make sense?
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org] 
> EnvoyÃ© : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:55
> Ã€ : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>  treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
>
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>
>
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">It makes more sense to me
      for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that
      realm, independent the type of request.Â  This implies that it
      would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host
      specified.<br>
      <br>
      If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to
      specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.<br>
      <br>
      I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the
      host second.Â  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as
      a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count
      as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.Â 
      Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be
      candidates for host overload.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/4/14 11:12 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:24563_1391533955_52F11F82_24563_614_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E477563@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.

Does it make sense?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
DeÂ : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] 
EnvoyÃ©Â : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:55
Ã€Â : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
CcÂ : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
ObjetÂ : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

 Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
 treatment of a given report type applies.
 Proposal:

    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
       for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.



    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

</pre>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:07:54 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Isn't it implicit?
An answer is sent to the origin-host of the corresponding request. The agen=
t is not the targeting point of the answer and is not supposed to be the re=
acting node. Now if an agent wants to act on behalf a client not supporting=
 the DOCI mechanism at the application, this agent will have to maintain a =
binding for this client. This requirement is not bound to the overload cont=
rol mechanism but to any function provides by the agent on behalf of downst=
ream clients.=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 10:32
=C0=A0: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Nirav,
... and this natural requirement is missing from the current draft.

To address this requirement we could replace the descriptions for report ty=
pes 0 and 1 with the decriptions of my proposed report types 2 and 3 respec=
tively.

As a consquence, however, the agent in the given example configuration woul=
d have to store always OLRs per client even when S wants all clients to do =
the same throttling. Would that be acceptable?

Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 10:03 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Ulrich,

I do not think so.
If we believe that there should be host-specific OLR and if we want to supp=
ort the model when the agent acts as reacting node (on behalf of the client=
(s)), then the agents are naturally required to store OLR per client/host b=
ehind the agent (based on the destination-host AVP in the answer message).

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 2:24 PM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Hi Lionel, Nirav,

your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacting=
 node.

In a configuration like this


+-------+
| C1    |          +------+
|       |----------|  A   |               +------+
+-------+          |      |               | S    |
                   |      |---------------|      |
+-------+          |      |               +------+
| C2    |----------|      |
|       |          +------+
+-------+
where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes the =
role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is diff=
erent. According to the current version of the draft this will result in bi=
g mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50% r=
eduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2.=20

Best regards
Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Same view as Lionel below.
New report types seem more confusing than adding value.

The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (an=
d hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific=
" report and it insert into the message.
No need to define new report types for achieving this.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc=
=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=
 are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
> two additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DO=
IC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different =
clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  re=
quirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2014 09:35:20 -0600
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Agreed.  To restate -- lack of an overload report does not change the
current overload state for the host or realm.  If there is a currently
active overload report then it continues to apply until it either times
out or is explicitly changed with a new overload report.  If there is no
currently active overload report then lack of an overload report implies
there is no overload for the host and realm.

Steve

On 2/5/14 9:19 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>
> I agree with Steve except the part "shouldnâ€™t lack of OLR be
> interpreted as not overloaded?"
>
>  
>
> We had some discussion sometime back and thought that it is reasonable
> to not mandate the server to include the OLR in every answer message.
> E.g. when the server is capable of tracking what is sent to which
> client and hence wants to avoid sending information which is
> redundant. But this is optional implementation and at the same time
> need not be prohibited from protocol point of view.
>
>  
>
> So basically, the lack of OLR should not affect the previously
> received OLR at the reacting node. The reacting node can continue to
> react based on older OLR until the expiry of the validity-period or
> when the explicit OLR with "0" overload-metric is received.
>
> In my view, this allows for flexible implementation at the reporting
> node and sound handling of OLR at the reacting node.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> Nirav.
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Donovan
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 05, 2014 8:00 PM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> inline
>
> On 2/5/14 7:57 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>     Ok then let's state that reporting nodes MUST insert an OC-OLR AVP in all answer messages that correspond to request messages which contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP (even when no load reduction is requested).
>
> SRD> Why in every answer message?  Shouldn't lack of an OLR be
> interpreted as not overloaded?
>
>  
>  
> Other criteria like REQ18 or REQ13 do not seem to matter.
>
> SRD> Requiring an overload report in every answer does directly break
> REQ13, but requiring an overloaded node to look for an
> OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every message is also substantial
> additional work, potentially more expensive than inserting OLRs.
>
>  
>  
> For my clarification: I guess that the reacting node is not required to process every single OLR received (most will be replays anyway). What would be the procedure in the reacting node in order to minimize processing of replayed OLRs and at the same time minimize the risk too miss a new OLR?
>
> SRD> That is the purpose of the sequence number. 
>
>  
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:27 AM
> To: lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>  
> I share the same opinion as Lionel.
>  
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 9:07 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>  
> I understand that the real concern is when the reporting node DOES NOT insert the OLR in every answer. 
> So the options would be:
> 1- OC-OLR AVP in every answer
> 2- OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every request + OC-OLR AVP in some answer when the current throttling performed by the client needs to be updated.
>  
> If there is no other criterion, the option 1 seems the best approach.
>  
> Lionel
>  
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> EnvoyÃ© : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:49
> Ã€ : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> Objet : [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>  
> #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>  
>  It has been proposed to define an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP that is  to be included by the reacting DOIC endpoint in request messages that  survived a throttling. This AVP would indicate the Sequence-Number
>  (TimeStamp) of the OLR according to which the throttling (which was
>  survived) is performed. Absence of this AVP indicates that currently no  throttling is performed.  Reporting DOIC endpoints may use this  information in order to detect whether there is a need to update the  reacting DOIC endpoint with the latest OLR.
>  Absence of this feedback mechanism would result in the need for the  reporting node to send OC-OLR AVPs in every answer as the reporting DOIC  endpoint cannot know whether the reacting DOIC endpoint is actually doing  the right thing with regard to throttling/not throttling.
>  The feedback mechanism improves robustness as it allows the reporting DOIC  endpoint to detect and correct inappropriate throttling by the reacting  DOIC endpoint (caused by whatever reason).
>  The feedback mechanism also allows to address REQ 18 from RFC 7068.
>  In summary it is proposed to define the OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP to  be used in request messages that survived a throttling.
>  
>
>  
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Agreed.Â  To restate --
      lack of an overload report does not change the current overload
      state for the host or realm.Â  If there is a currently active
      overload report then it continues to apply until it either times
      out or is explicitly changed with a new overload report.Â  If there
      is no currently active overload report then lack of an overload
      report implies there is no overload for the host and realm.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/5/14 9:19 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot)
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I
            agree with Steve except the part "shouldnâ€™t lack of OLR be
            interpreted as not overloaded?"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">We
            had some discussion sometime back and thought that it is
            reasonable to not mandate the server to include the OLR in
            every answer message. E.g. when the server is capable of
            tracking what is sent to which client and hence wants to
            avoid sending information which is redundant. But this is
            optional implementation and at the same time need not be
            prohibited from protocol point of view.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">So
            basically, the lack of OLR should not affect the previously
            received OLR at the reacting node. The reacting node can
            continue to react based on older OLR until the expiry of the
            validity-period or when the explicit OLR with "0"
            overload-metric is received.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">In
            my view, this allows for flexible implementation at the
            reporting node and sound handling of OLR at the reacting
            node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 05, 2014 8:00 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">inline<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/5/14 7:57 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
            DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>Ok then let's state that reporting nodes MUST insert an OC-OLR AVP in all answer messages that correspond to request messages which contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP (even when no load reduction is requested).<o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal">SRD&gt; Why in every answer message?Â 
          Shouldn't lack of an OLR be interpreted as not overloaded?<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Other criteria like REQ18 or REQ13 do not seem to matter.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">SRD&gt; Requiring an overload report in
          every answer does directly break REQ13, but requiring an
          overloaded node to look for an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP
          in every message is also substantial additional work,
          potentially more expensive than inserting OLRs.<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>For my clarification: I guess that the reacting node is not required to process every single OLR received (most will be replays anyway). What would be the procedure in the reacting node in order to minimize processing of replayed OLRs and at the same time minimize the risk too miss a new OLR?<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">SRD&gt; That is the purpose of the sequence
          number.Â  <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:27 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>I share the same opinion as Lionel.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Nirav.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 9:07 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>I understand that the real concern is when the reporting node DOES NOT insert the OLR in every answer. <o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>So the options would be:<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>1- OC-OLR AVP in every answer<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>2- OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every request + OC-OLR AVP in some answer when the current throttling performed by the client needs to be updated.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>If there is no other criterion, the option 1 seems the best approach.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>DeÂ : dime issue tracker [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>EnvoyÃ©Â : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:49<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>Ã€Â : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>CcÂ : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>ObjetÂ : [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre>#31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <pre> It has been proposed to define an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP that isÂ  to be included by the reacting DOIC endpoint in request messages thatÂ  survived a throttling. This AVP would indicate the Sequence-Number<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre> (TimeStamp) of the OLR according to which the throttling (which was<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre> survived) is performed. Absence of this AVP indicates that currently noÂ  throttling is performed.Â  Reporting DOIC endpoints may use thisÂ  information in order to detect whether there is a need to update theÂ  reacting DOIC endpoint with the latest OLR.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre> Absence of this feedback mechanism would result in the need for theÂ  reporting node to send OC-OLR AVPs in every answer as the reporting DOICÂ  endpoint cannot know whether the reacting DOIC endpoint is actually doingÂ  the right thing with regard to throttling/not throttling.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre> The feedback mechanism improves robustness as it allows the reporting DOICÂ  endpoint to detect and correct inappropriate throttling by the reactingÂ  DOIC endpoint (caused by whatever reason).<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre> The feedback mechanism also allows to address REQ 18 from RFC 7068.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre> In summary it is proposed to define the OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP toÂ  be used in request messages that survived a throttling.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:39:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From ben@nostrum.com  Wed Feb  5 07:46:53 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values	within	OC-OLR
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I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to =
meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an =
implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level =
requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:

"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "

The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we =
expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would =
be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then =
add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a =
timestamp is a good way to do this.

On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use =
case to mandate a specific semantic.
> =20
> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it =
is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  =
There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should =
be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
> I also agree.
> =20
> Regards,
> Nirav.
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
> =20
> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this =
sequence-number.
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
>  The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>     =46rom the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP =
MUST
>     be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>     control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the =
AVP
>     is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>     required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>     Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>     sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>     related or correlated.
> =20
>     When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>     greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>     endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of =
the
>     NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
> =20
> =20
>  With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are =
out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>  It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit =
NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was =
created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time =
of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
> =20
> =20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From lionel.morand@orange.com  Wed Feb  5 07:53:48 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values	within OC-OLR
Thread-Index: AQHPIol0V4bE26Dyt0O0z7brkzIM6ZqmztTw
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 15:53:43 +0000
Message-ID: <29459_1391615624_52F25E88_29459_734_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4873CD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
References: <066.f8b7ffcffcd55b9e56fa2bfc281d4649@trac.tools.ietf.org> <29423_1391537999_52F12F4F_29423_3802_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E47772A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A4B@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F24BC0.6070600@usdonovans.com> <29564_1391614624_52F25AA0_29564_1057_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487344@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2ACDC7E8-A46D-4618-92CE-B793AF3A8F75@nostrum.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values	within	OC-OLR
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Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is =
a case for a "MUST".
We are not violating anything.

Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to k=
now how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format o=
f the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc=A0: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR

I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet t=
he requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementatio=
n. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Sect=
ion 6 of 2119 includes the following:

"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "

The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected =
peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectl=
y reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-norma=
tive (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good wa=
y to do this.

On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case t=
o mandate a specific semantic.
>=20=20
> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a=
 simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>=20=20
> Lionel
>=20=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR
>=20=20
> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  Th=
ere is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be in=
cluded only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
> I also agree.
>=20=20
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>=20=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
>=20=20
> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>=20=20
> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this se=
quence-number.
>=20=20
> Lionel
>=20=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>=20=20
> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>=20=20
>  The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>     From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>     be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>     control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>     is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>     required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>     Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>     sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>     related or correlated.
>=20=20
>     When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>     greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>     endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>     NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>=20=20
>=20=20
>  With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out=
  of sync (for whatever reason).
>  It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP =
 timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,=
  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception=
  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>=20=20
>=20=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From ben@nostrum.com  Wed Feb  5 07:57:00 2014
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References: <066.f8b7ffcffcd55b9e56fa2bfc281d4649@trac.tools.ietf.org> <29423_1391537999_52F12F4F_29423_3802_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E47772A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A4B@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F24BC0.6070600@usdonovans.com> <29564_1391614624_52F25AA0_29564_1057_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487344@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2ACDC7E8-A46D-4618-92CE-B793AF3A8F75@nostrum.com> <29459_1391615624_52F25E88_29459_734_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4873CD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values	within	OC-OLR
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My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number =
always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement =
that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is =
probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in =
itself, an interop requirement.

On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> =
<lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:

> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", =
it is a case for a "MUST".
> We are not violating anything.
>=20
> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces =
to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the =
format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>=20
> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to =
meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an =
implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level =
requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>=20
> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>=20
> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we =
expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would =
be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then =
add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a =
timestamp is a good way to do this.
>=20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>=20
>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use =
case to mandate a specific semantic.
>>=20
>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it =
is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
>> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>=20
>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision. =
 There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should =
be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>> I also agree.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Nirav.
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>=20
>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>=20
>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of =
this sequence-number.
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>=20
>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>=20
>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>    =46rom the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP =
MUST
>>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the =
AVP
>>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>    related or correlated.
>>=20
>>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of =
the
>>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>=20
>>=20
>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are =
out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit =
NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was =
created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time =
of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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--_000_5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2236DEMUMBX014nsnin_--

From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Wed Feb  5 08:42:49 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 16:42:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Even if some feel this is implicit, it should not harm to add the d) condit=
ion explicitly please.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:08 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.or=
g
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Isn't it implicit?
An answer is sent to the origin-host of the corresponding request. The agen=
t is not the targeting point of the answer and is not supposed to be the re=
acting node. Now if an agent wants to act on behalf a client not supporting=
 the DOCI mechanism at the application, this agent will have to maintain a =
binding for this client. This requirement is not bound to the overload cont=
rol mechanism but to any function provides by the agent on behalf of downst=
ream clients.=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 10:32
=C0=A0: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Nirav,
... and this natural requirement is missing from the current draft.

To address this requirement we could replace the descriptions for report ty=
pes 0 and 1 with the decriptions of my proposed report types 2 and 3 respec=
tively.

As a consquence, however, the agent in the given example configuration woul=
d have to store always OLRs per client even when S wants all clients to do =
the same throttling. Would that be acceptable?

Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 10:03 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.or=
g
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Ulrich,

I do not think so.
If we believe that there should be host-specific OLR and if we want to supp=
ort the model when the agent acts as reacting node (on behalf of the client=
(s)), then the agents are naturally required to store OLR per client/host b=
ehind the agent (based on the destination-host AVP in the answer message).

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 2:24 PM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Hi Lionel, Nirav,

your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacting=
 node.

In a configuration like this


+-------+
| C1    |          +------+
|       |----------|  A   |               +------+
+-------+          |      |               | S    |
                   |      |---------------|      |
+-------+          |      |               +------+
| C2    |----------|      |
|       |          +------+
+-------+
where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes the =
role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is diff=
erent. According to the current version of the draft this will result in bi=
g mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50% r=
eduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2.=20

Best regards
Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Same view as Lionel below.
New report types seem more confusing than adding value.

The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (an=
d hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific=
" report and it insert into the message.
No need to define new report types for achieving this.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc=
=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=
 are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
> two additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DO=
IC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different =
clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  re=
quirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Wed Feb  5 08:54:36 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 16:54:30 +0000
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References: <066.5bacdffbc40a388af99a5b9c8e0b2d88@trac.tools.ietf.org> <081.72db5756df1220c7d22a82469b92ce52@trac.tools.ietf.org> <5522_1391534304_52F120E0_5522_8615_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4775B3@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62ACC@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B1FA3@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62D07@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B1FEF@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <8858_1391612876_52F253CC_8858_340_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487208@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2254@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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If I'm correct, the following condition:

       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

is not correct as the message containing the OC-OLR AVP is an answer and th=
ere is Destination-Host or Destination-Realm AVPs in an answer.

If you want to clarify something, it can be in the section describing the a=
gent behavior. And such clarification will be that when an agent received a=
n OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, t=
his agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client (=
no need of the origin-realm).

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 17:43
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Even if some feel this is implicit, it should not harm to add the d) condit=
ion explicitly please.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:08 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Isn't it implicit?
An answer is sent to the origin-host of the corresponding request. The agen=
t is not the targeting point of the answer and is not supposed to be the re=
acting node. Now if an agent wants to act on behalf a client not supporting=
 the DOCI mechanism at the application, this agent will have to maintain a =
binding for this client. This requirement is not bound to the overload cont=
rol mechanism but to any function provides by the agent on behalf of downst=
ream clients.=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 10:32
=C0=A0: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Nirav,
... and this natural requirement is missing from the current draft.

To address this requirement we could replace the descriptions for report ty=
pes 0 and 1 with the decriptions of my proposed report types 2 and 3 respec=
tively.

As a consquence, however, the agent in the given example configuration woul=
d have to store always OLRs per client even when S wants all clients to do =
the same throttling. Would that be acceptable?

Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 10:03 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Ulrich,

I do not think so.
If we believe that there should be host-specific OLR and if we want to supp=
ort the model when the agent acts as reacting node (on behalf of the client=
(s)), then the agents are naturally required to store OLR per client/host b=
ehind the agent (based on the destination-host AVP in the answer message).

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 2:24 PM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Hi Lionel, Nirav,

your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacting=
 node.

In a configuration like this


+-------+
| C1    |          +------+
|       |----------|  A   |               +------+
+-------+          |      |               | S    |
                   |      |---------------|      |
+-------+          |      |               +------+
| C2    |----------|      |
|       |          +------+
+-------+
where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes the =
role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is diff=
erent. According to the current version of the draft this will result in bi=
g mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50% r=
eduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2.=20

Best regards
Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Same view as Lionel below.
New report types seem more confusing than adding value.

The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (an=
d hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific=
" report and it insert into the message.
No need to define new report types for achieving this.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc=
=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=
 are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
> two additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DO=
IC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different =
clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  re=
quirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Wed Feb  5 09:09:42 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "srdonovan@usdonovans.com" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #28: Report type support in capabilities?
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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 17:09:37 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #28: Report type support in capabilities?
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The default mechanism implies that a client will be able to manage both typ=
es of report. Therefore there is no need at this stage IMHO.

In future, if there is a need to explicitly indicate which report type a no=
de support, it may be a hint for defining different capabilities/algos. And=
 this new capability will be described a new companion document.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 31 janvier 2014 23:16
=C0=A0: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: [Dime] [dime] #28: Report type support in capabilities?

#28: Report type support in capabilities?

 This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli

 This is more of a question than an issue.

 We currently only include the abatement algorithm in the OC-Feature-Vector
 AVP.  The question is whether we should expand it to include support for
 the host(server) report and realm report.

 The reason for the question is that the agent overload extension will
 likely include an indicator in the OC-Feature-Vector of support for the
 peer report type.

--=20
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  srdonovan@usdonovans.com           |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  minor                    |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:
 Severity:  Submitted WG Document    |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/28>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Wed Feb  5 09:26:01 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Thank you for your proposal. Let's agree on the clarification in the sectio=
n describing agent behavior:=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.or=
g
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

If I'm correct, the following condition:

       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

is not correct as the message containing the OC-OLR AVP is an answer and th=
ere is Destination-Host or Destination-Realm AVPs in an answer.

If you want to clarify something, it can be in the section describing the a=
gent behavior. And such clarification will be that when an agent received a=
n OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, t=
his agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client (=
no need of the origin-realm).

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 17:43
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Even if some feel this is implicit, it should not harm to add the d) condit=
ion explicitly please.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:08 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.or=
g
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Isn't it implicit?
An answer is sent to the origin-host of the corresponding request. The agen=
t is not the targeting point of the answer and is not supposed to be the re=
acting node. Now if an agent wants to act on behalf a client not supporting=
 the DOCI mechanism at the application, this agent will have to maintain a =
binding for this client. This requirement is not bound to the overload cont=
rol mechanism but to any function provides by the agent on behalf of downst=
ream clients.=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 10:32
=C0=A0: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Nirav,
... and this natural requirement is missing from the current draft.

To address this requirement we could replace the descriptions for report ty=
pes 0 and 1 with the decriptions of my proposed report types 2 and 3 respec=
tively.

As a consquence, however, the agent in the given example configuration woul=
d have to store always OLRs per client even when S wants all clients to do =
the same throttling. Would that be acceptable?

Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 10:03 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.or=
g
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Ulrich,

I do not think so.
If we believe that there should be host-specific OLR and if we want to supp=
ort the model when the agent acts as reacting node (on behalf of the client=
(s)), then the agents are naturally required to store OLR per client/host b=
ehind the agent (based on the destination-host AVP in the answer message).

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 2:24 PM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Hi Lionel, Nirav,

your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacting=
 node.

In a configuration like this


+-------+
| C1    |          +------+
|       |----------|  A   |               +------+
+-------+          |      |               | S    |
                   |      |---------------|      |
+-------+          |      |               +------+
| C2    |----------|      |
|       |          +------+
+-------+
where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes the =
role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is diff=
erent. According to the current version of the draft this will result in bi=
g mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50% r=
eduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2.=20

Best regards
Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Same view as Lionel below.
New report types seem more confusing than adding value.

The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (an=
d hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific=
" report and it insert into the message.
No need to define new report types for achieving this.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc=
=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=
 are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
> two additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DO=
IC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different =
clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  re=
quirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
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Thank you.


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Thu Feb  6 00:53:15 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "ext Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 09:08:16 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 09:19:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 10:27:03 +0000
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References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <25535_1391528227_52F10923_25535_243_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4771BD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A2A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2153@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52F24ACE.6080501@usdonovans.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F25A38.2030408@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B22FB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D64E69@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <29031_1391678397_52F353BD_29031_478_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48CA45@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Thu Feb  6 02:44:56 2014
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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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#36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

 In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when
 the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.

 Now:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
     Type:  enhancement                        |  BartolomÃ©
 Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
 Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:
                                               |   Keywords:
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/36>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Thu Feb  6 05:12:17 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 13:12:09 +0000
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References: <066.f8b7ffcffcd55b9e56fa2bfc281d4649@trac.tools.ietf.org> <29423_1391537999_52F12F4F_29423_3802_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E47772A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A4B@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F24BC0.6070600@usdonovans.com> <29564_1391614624_52F25AA0_29564_1057_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487344@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2ACDC7E8-A46D-4618-92CE-B793AF3A8F75@nostrum.com> <29459_1391615624_52F25E88_29459_734_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4873CD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <29FCFFE7-64BF-4928-A3DF-F2FC0D1EFBC6@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:

Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
but the receicer for any reason receives=20
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
The receiver would accept
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
and then silently discards
3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
with no way to come back to sync.

Are we sure that this cannot happen?

Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausi=
bility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time =
of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem=
. But in the moment I don't see another way.

Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR

My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always=
 increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the=
 sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a=
 good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an i=
nterop requirement.

On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orang=
e.com> wrote:

> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it i=
s a case for a "MUST".
> We are not violating anything.
>=20
> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to=
 know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format=
 of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR
>=20
> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet=
 the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementat=
ion. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Se=
ction 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>=20
> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>=20
> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expecte=
d peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfec=
tly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-nor=
mative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good =
way to do this.
>=20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>=20
>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case =
to mandate a specific semantic.
>>=20
>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is =
a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
>> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
>>=20
>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  T=
here is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be i=
ncluded only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>> I also agree.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Nirav.
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@ora=
nge.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within=
 OC-OLR
>>=20
>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>=20
>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this s=
equence-number.
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>=20
>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>=20
>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>    From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>    related or correlated.
>>=20
>>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>=20
>>=20
>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out=
  of sync (for whatever reason).
>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP =
 timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,=
  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception=
  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>=20
>>=20
>> ________________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confi=
dentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez r=
ecu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages=
 electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme =
ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and d=
elete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have be=
en modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
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From srdonovan@usdonovans.com  Thu Feb  6 07:35:04 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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--------------060906030800010805000505
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This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02
version of the draft unless I hear objections soon.

Steve

On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>
>  In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when
>  the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.
>
>  Now:
>     The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>     and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>     valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
>     OC-Sequence-Number AVP).
>
>  Proposal:
>     The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>     and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>     valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>     specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>     OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>


--------------060906030800010805000505
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">This change looks pretty
      straight forward to me.Â  I'll add it to the -02 version of the
      draft unless I hear objections soon.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:075.376f1b94eeb48f20f90d9724b0e70c0e@trac.tools.ietf.org"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">#36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

 In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when
 the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.

 Now:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------060906030800010805000505--

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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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A couple of things -

The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over
time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this
but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp
to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a
reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each
subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better properties
than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.  One
could also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to
time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server
after each reboot.

We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one
way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence
number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires
there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload
report received could, conceivably have any value.

The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base
Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be
globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial
differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the
overload report.

It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP
timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a
similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a
mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended
format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below..."

Steve

On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
>
> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
> but the receicer for any reason receives 
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
> The receiver would accept
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
> and then silently discards
> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, .... 
> with no way to come back to sync.
>
> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>
> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>
> Ulrich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
> To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>
> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
>
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
>> We are not violating anything.
>>
>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com] 
>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 16:47
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>
>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>
>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>
>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good way to do this.
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>
>>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to mandate a specific semantic.
>>>
>>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>>
>>> Lionel
>>>
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:34
>>> À : dime@ietf.org
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>
>>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>>> I also agree.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Nirav.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>>> To: dime@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>
>>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>>
>>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.
>>>
>>> Lionel
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>>> Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:50
>>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>
>>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>
>>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>>    From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>>>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>>>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>>>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>>    related or correlated.
>>>
>>>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>>>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>>
>>>
>>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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>>
>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">A couple of things - <br>
      <br>
      The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically
      over time, including over a reboot.&nbsp; Use of NTP time is one way of
      doing this but is not the only way.&nbsp; Someone could, for instance,
      use a time stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload
      report sent after a reboot and then increment the sequence number
      value by one for each subsequent overload report sent.&nbsp; This
      actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as it would
      take much longer to roll over.&nbsp; One could also create a global
      sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a
      Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each
      reboot.<br>
      <br>
      We also have a duration timer on overload reports.&nbsp; This gives us
      one way to reset.&nbsp; It should only be required to remember the
      sequence number of an active overload report.&nbsp; Once the overload
      report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it
      and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any
      value. <br>
      <br>
      The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base
      Diameter specification.&nbsp; The wording there is -- "</font><font
      face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">The Session-Id MUST be
      globally and eternally unique".&nbsp; We just need eternally as the
      spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message
      carrying the overload report.<br>
      <br>
      It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use
      of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be
      worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- </font>The
    Session-Id includes a mandatory portion and an
    implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the
    implementation-defined portion is outlined below<font face="Times
      New Roman, Times, serif">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
    </font><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> ..."<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
      DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B23D7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:

Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
but the receicer for any reason receives 
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
The receiver would accept
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
and then silently discards
3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, .... 
with no way to come back to sync.

Are we sure that this cannot happen?

Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.

Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
To: ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.

On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
We are not violating anything.

Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Ben Campbell [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>] 
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:47
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:

"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "

The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good way to do this.

On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to mandate a specific semantic.

Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?

Lionel

De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:34
&Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.

Steve

On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
I also agree.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!

In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]
Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:50
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
   related or correlated.

   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).


With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.


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</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
Thread-Index: AQHPIyh3Mk+g2dTxBkStndl7a0rG2ZqoSuqAgAAqeQCAAOmhgIAACEru
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 07:32:53 +0000
Message-ID: <21997_1391758373_52F48C25_21997_132_1_c9aldckjsu8oeuya3nuk8i3w.1391758370310@email.android.com>
References: <075.376f1b94eeb48f20f90d9724b0e70c0e@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F3ABA5.30504@usdonovans.com> <6764_1391710024_52F3CF48_6764_4871_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48EEEE@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772061@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Hi,

My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the defi=
nition and the use of the AVP.

And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how to pop=
ulate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.

Regards,

Lionel

Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange

Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :


Thanks Lionel,
The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the Validity-Duration =
should include a new value.

Now:
   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.


Best regards
/MCruz


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi Maria Cruz,

Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,

Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.

The current text in the draft says:

4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP


   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
   Duration AVP were not present.

   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.

   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
   reporting node.

I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should remain i=
ndependent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
The sequence number does not change the value of the OC-Validity-Duration A=
VP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or not. And if it is, a new=
 duration will be there (either implicit or explicit with the OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP).

So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should be in =
the handling of the OLR.

Regards,

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan Envoy=
=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [=
dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02 ve=
rsion of the draft unless I hear objections soon.

Steve
On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
#36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

 In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when =
 the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.

 Now:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.



___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou =
copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez=
 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to=
ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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 or copied without authorisation.
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te this message and its attachments.
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Thank you.

_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Thu Feb  6 23:38:22 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
Thread-Index: AQHPIyh3Mk+g2dTxBkStndl7a0rG2ZqoSuqAgAAqeQCAAOmhgIAACErugAAAQ9A=
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 07:38:16 +0000
Message-ID: <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097720CF@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
References: <075.376f1b94eeb48f20f90d9724b0e70c0e@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F3ABA5.30504@usdonovans.com> <6764_1391710024_52F3CF48_6764_4871_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48EEEE@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772061@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <21997_1391758373_52F48C25_21997_132_1_c9aldckjsu8oeuya3nuk8i3w.1391758370310@email.android.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Hello Lionel, all,

I would like to clarify what  "new and fresh", or even only "new" OC-OLR AV=
P mean in the text.
It should be understood that it does not refer to the new (latest) received=
 AVP, but just the one that contains (potentially) new values, what only ha=
ppens for a new Sequence Number. In that line is the proposed text I provid=
ed.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 8:33
To: dime@ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi,

My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the defi=
nition and the use of the AVP.

And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how to pop=
ulate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.

Regards,

Lionel

Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange

Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :


Thanks Lionel,
The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the Validity-Duration =
should include a new value.

Now:
   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.


Best regards
/MCruz


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi Maria Cruz,

Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,

Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.

The current text in the draft says:

4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP


   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
   Duration AVP were not present.

   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.

   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
   reporting node.

I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should remain i=
ndependent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
The sequence number does not change the value of the OC-Validity-Duration A=
VP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or not. And if it is, a new=
 duration will be there (either implicit or explicit with the OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP).

So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should be in =
the handling of the OLR.

Regards,

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan Envoy=
=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [=
dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02 ve=
rsion of the draft unless I hear objections soon.

Steve
On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
#36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

 In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when =
 the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.

 Now:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.



___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou =
copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez=
 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to=
ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used=
 or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou =
copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez=
 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to=
ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used=
 or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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To: dime@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
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Finally catching up with these.. see inline.


On Feb 4, 2014, at 10:46 AM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:

> #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
>=20
> According to the current definition of the OC-Supported-Features AVP =
in
> the -01 draft, the OC-Supported-Features AVP contains an OC-Sequence-
> Number AVP.
> The author of this document believes that OC-Sequence-Number within =
OC-
> Supported-Feature is  not needed, is useless and could be misleading =
and
> therefore proposes to remove OC-Sequence-Number from =
OC-Supported-Feature.
>=20
> The -01 draft says in clause 4.1:
>    The OC-Sequence-Number AVP is used to indicate whether the contents
>    of the OC-Supported-Features AVP has changed since last time the =
node
>    included the OC-Supported-Features AVP (see Section 4.4).  Although
>    sending the OC-Sequence-Number AVP is mandatory in the =
OC-Supported-
>    Features AVP, the receiving node MAY always choose to ignore the
>    sequence number if it can determine the feature support changes
>    otherwise.
>=20
> The text seems to imply that the reporting DOIC endpoint, when =
receiving
> an application request message that contains an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP,
> needs to determine whether a feature support change occured (either by
> checking the value of the received sequence-number (probably) against =
a
> stored value, or by other unspecified means). However,  this is not
> correct. The reporting DOIC endpoint may  ignore the sequence-number =
even
> if it cannot determine whether or not a feature support change =
occured:
> The reporting DOIC endpoint simply takes the value of the OC-Feature-
> Vector as received in the request  into account (if absent the default
> value applies) when processing the request.  There is no need for the
> reporting DOIC endpoint to know whether a previous request contained =
the
> same or a different value in OC-Feature-Vector, i.e. whether there was =
a
> recent change.

This is true for the current default algorithm. May not be true in the
future. Note, in IETF space versioning Diameter applications is not that
straight forward as in 3GPP, thus I would rather have forward looking
solution, even if that in places would mean "placeholder" AVPs.

> It has been argued that the reporting DOIC endpoint may (optionally)
> benefit from the presence of a Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-
> Features: The reporting DOIC endpoint may have stored the =
Sequence-Number
> and Feature-Vector as received in a previous request, and when =
receiving a
> new request the reporting DOIC endpoint would compare the received
> Sequence-Number from the new request  with the stored Sequence-Number; =
 If
> they match (i.e. no change of supported features occured) the =
reporting
> DOIC endpoint would ignore the received Feature-Vector from the new
> request and use the stored Feature-Vector for further processing; if =
they
> don't match (i.e. a change of supported features occured), the =
reporting
> DOIC endpoint would update the stored Sequence-Number and =
Feature-Vector
> with the received values from the new request and use the updated =
Feature-
> Vector for further processing. While it is debatable whether the =
described
> usecase is reasonable, the following issues have not been addressed:
> In configurations where the client does not support DOIC, an agent =
(A1) on
> a path from client to reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g. server) may take =
the
> role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP
> in the (first) request message indicating its supported features.  A
> subsequent request message sent from the same client to the same =
server
> may take another path on which another agent (A2) takes the role of =
the
> reacting DOIC endpoint. A2 then inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP =
in
> the subsequent request message indicating its supported features =
(which
> may be different from A1's supported features but may have the same
> sequence number).  Since the reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g.server) - =
when

Since seq-no is NTP time, this would not happen, excluding cases
where clocks either in A1 or A2 are wrong. But that is a different
issue then..

> receiving the subsequent request - cannot know whether the the =
reacting
> DOIC endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the
> subsequent request is identical to or different from the reacting DOIC
> endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the first =
request,

Right.

> it may frequently occure that the reporting DOIC endpoint receives =
request
> messages containing an OC-Supported-Features AVP with a =
Sequence-Number
> valuelower than the stored value (which may be interpreted as error), =
or
> equal to the stored value but with a different associated Feature =
Vector,
> or higher than the stored value but unmodified Feature Vector.

See the above comment on the NPT.

> In summary, the Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-Features is of no
> earthly use since the reporting DOIC endpoint cannot associate a =
received
> Sequence-Number (within OC-Supported-Features) with the identity of =
the
> reacting DOIC endpoint that sent the Sequence-Number.  Even when such
> association was possible by enhancing the OC-Supported-Features AVP =
with
> the Diameter Identity of the reacting DOIC endpoint that generated the
> Sequence-Number,  it would still simply not be needed as the reporting
> DOIC endpoint can base its processing on the received Feature-Vector
> (rather than on a stored Feature Vector).

I buy the reasoning for the lack of binding between the reacting node
identity and the supported features AVP.

However, we should not assume that _all_ implementations will behave
as expected above i.e. not storing the feature vector.

> It is therefore proposed to remove the OC-Sequence-Number AVP from the =
OC-
> Supported Features AVP.

I have no (more) strong view here. If folks are OK to remove
the seq-no, so be it.

- Jouni



>=20
> --=20
> =
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich =
Wiehe
>     Type:  defect                            |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                             |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli             |    Version:  2.0
> Severity:  Active WG Document                |   Keywords:
> =
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/29>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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Steve,

On Feb 4, 2014, at 1:55 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> All,
>=20
> I believe that the current DOIC Endpoint behavior definition is not =
sufficiently defined, especially for agents.
>=20
> There was also a change introduced in the -01 version of the draft =
that implies that there can be a DOIC association that goes through a =
DOIC enabled agent.  This was not  how I understood endpoints.  The =
original diagrams showed a DOIC agent as terminating an endpoint that =
came to it.    I suspect there were different assumptions that lead to =
clearly different interpretations. =20

Yes.. one of the confusion points was how the endpoint is
actually identified, specifically in a case of agents. Is=20
that done B2B fashion where the client thinks the agent is
actually the server or whether the client still talks directly
to the server endpoint (and the agent just keeps out of the
DOIC business or participates to it if configured to do so).
The modified figure attempt to cover both.. with little success
apparently; lack of explaining text I would say.=20

It is definitive that more text and clarity is needed here.

- JOuni


> I propose that we return to the original diagrams and add the wording =
below on how DOC agents behave.  One way to look at this is that DOC =
agents act as back-to-back DOC endpoints.  I intentionally don't say =
back-to-back Diameter endpoints because this does not impact anything =
except the handling of DOIC related AVPs.
>=20
> Note that I don't believe this requires any changes to Diameter =
clients or servers.  I also don't believe this requires any changes to =
the contents of the DOIC related AVPs but there is an open question as =
to whether there is a need to indicate when a OC-Supported-Features AVP =
is generated or modified by an agent.
>=20
> I propose to add the following section to the section on capabilities =
announcement.  I'll send a separate email proposing text to section 5.5 =
on how DOC agents are to behave.=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> -----
>=20
> 5.3.1 DOC Agent handling of DOIC capability exchange.
>=20
> A DOC agent is defined as a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC =
extension.
>=20
> A DOC node is defined as a Diameter client, Diameter server or =
Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension.
>=20
> An downstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between =
the DOIC supporting Diameter entity that sends a Diameter request =
message to a DOC agent and the DOC agent.
>=20
> A upstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between a =
DOC agent and the Diameter entity to which the DOC agent sends the =
Diameter request message.  The following illustrated the upstream and =
downstream concepts.
>=20
>   DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream =
DOIC association--> DOC  node
>   Direction of request message for a transaction ----->
>   Direction of answer message for a transaction <-----
>=20
> Four scenarios must be supported:
>=20
>   - Scenario 1 - There is both an upstream and downstream DOIC =
association.
>   - Scenario 2 - There is no upstream DOIC association
>   - Scenario 3 - There is no downstream DOIC association
>   - Scenario 4 - No DOIC association in either direction
>=20
> Scenario 1 - Both upstream and downstream DOIC associations
>=20
> Request message handling:
>=20
> A DOC agent that receives a request that contains the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP must act as an endpoint for the downstream =
DOIC association.
>=20
> If the DOC agent relays or proxies the request message then the agent =
must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.  The =
contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, =
all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.  =
If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent =
OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP.
>=20
> If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the =
received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must modify the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.  The =
modified OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed =
request message.
>=20
>   Note: any DOIC extension must define the changes needed to the =
OC-Feature-Vector AVP and any additional AVPs that need to be added to =
the OC-Supported-Features AVP as part of the capabilities advertisement =
for that feature.
>=20
> Question: Should there be an indication that the contents of the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP was changed?
>=20
> Question: Will this work when end-to-end security is introduced?  =
Would adding a separate OC-Supported-Features AVP be better, especially =
when end-to-end security is considered?
>=20
> Answer message handling:
>=20
> When an agent receives the  answer message that corresponds to the =
above request message, the agent must act as the DOIC endpoint for the =
upstream DOIC association. =20
>=20
> If the DOC agent relays or proxies the answer message then the agent =
must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.  The =
contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, =
all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.  =
If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent =
OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP.
>=20
> If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the =
received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent should modify the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.  The =
modified OC-Supported Features AVP must be included in the relayed =
answer message.
>=20
> Scenario 2 - No downstream DOIC association with an upstream =
association
>=20
> In this case a request is received that does not contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP.
>=20
> Request message handling:
>=20
> If a DOC agent receives a request that does NOT contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must generate an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the =
DOC agent.  The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the =
relayed/proxied request message.
>=20
> The agent will then become the reacting DOIC endpoint for the upstream =
DOIC association that results from the transaction. =20
>=20
> Note: Section x.x.x defines agent behavior when it is the reacting =
node for a DOIC association.
>=20
> Answer message handling
>=20
> In this case the answer message will contain an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP.  The DOC agent must store the advertised capabilities for use when =
the DOC agent reacts to an overload report from the upstream Diameter =
node.
>=20
> The DOC agent should remove the OC-Supported-Features AVP from the =
answer message before relaying/proxying the answer message. =20
>=20
> Scenario 3 - Downstream DOC association with no upstream DOIC =
association
>=20
> In this case a OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the request =
from the downstream Diameter entity but no OC-Supported-Features AVP is =
received in the answer message received from the upstream Diameter =
entity.  In this case the agent must act as the reporting DOIC endpoint =
for the downstream DOIC association.
>=20
> Request message handling:
>=20
> Request message handling is the same as for scenario 1.
>=20
> Answer message handling:
>=20
> If a DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that includes an upstream =
DOC association then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.  The =
generation of this OC-Supported-Features AVP must also follow the rules =
specified in section 5.3.2.  The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be =
included in the relayed/proxied the answer message.
>=20
> Scenario 4 - No upstream association and no downstream association
>=20
> Request message handling:
>=20
> The request message handling in this case is the same as scenario 2.
>=20
> Answer message handling:
>=20
> If the DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that does not include a =
downstream DOC association then the agent must NOT generate an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP.  The DOC Agent must relay/proxy the answer =
message with no DOIC related change.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 10:44:15 +0200
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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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Gotta hate these mega long mails ;) See inline..


On Feb 4, 2014, at 3:43 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Steve,
>=20
> please find comments inline.
>=20
> Regards
> Ulrich
>=20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve =
Donovan
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 12:55 AM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
>=20
> All,
>=20
> I believe that the current DOIC Endpoint behavior definition is not =
sufficiently defined, especially for agents.
> <Ulrich> I agree. </Ulrich>
>=20
> There was also a change introduced in the -01 version of the draft =
that implies that there can be a DOIC association that goes through a =
DOIC enabled agent.  This was not  how I understood endpoints.
> <Ulrich> same with me </Ulrich>  The original diagrams showed a DOIC =
agent as terminating an endpoint that came to it.    I suspect there =
were different assumptions that lead to clearly different =
interpretations. =20
>=20
> I propose that we return to the original diagrams and add the wording =
below on how DOC agents behave.  One way to look at this is that DOC =
agents act as back-to-back DOC endpoints.  I intentionally don't say =
back-to-back Diameter endpoints because this does not impact anything =
except the handling of DOIC related AVPs.
>=20
> Note that I don't believe this requires any changes to Diameter =
clients or servers.  I also don't believe this requires any changes to =
the contents of the DOIC related AVPs but there is an open question as =
to whether there is a need to indicate when a OC-Supported-Features AVP =
is generated or modified by an agent.
>=20
> I propose to add the following section to the section on capabilities =
announcement.  I'll send a separate email proposing text to section 5.5 =
on how DOC agents are to behave.=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> -----
>=20
> 5.3.1 DOC Agent handling of DOIC capability exchange.
>=20
> A DOC agent is defined as a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC =
extension.
> <Ulrich> A Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension is not =
necessarily taking the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint.
> It only takes the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint when receiving a =
request that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.
> Similarily a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extensions is not =
necessarily taking the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint.
> It only takes the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint when receiving a =
realm type request (not containing a destination host) that contains an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP while it is configured to act as a reporting =
DOIC endpoint for that realm. </Ulrich>
>=20
> A DOC node is defined as a Diameter client, Diameter server or =
Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension
> <Ulrich> and decided to take the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint =
and/or reporting DOIC endpoint </Ulrich>.
>=20
> An downstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between =
the DOIC supporting Diameter entity that sends a Diameter request =
message to a DOC agent and the DOC agent.
>=20
> A upstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between a =
DOC agent and the Diameter entity to which the DOC agent sends the =
Diameter request message.  The following illustrated the upstream and =
downstream concepts.
>=20
>   DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream =
DOIC association--> DOC  node
>   Direction of request message for a transaction ----->
>   Direction of answer message for a transaction <-----
> <Ulrich> this depends on the point of view: one node's downstream DOIC =
association is another node's upstream DOIC association. </Ulrich>
> <Ulrich> The general case is:
>=20
> +---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+             =
             +--------+                +--------+
> | client  |      | A1      |     | A2     |     | A3     |             =
             | A4     |                | server |
> | no DOIC |      | no DOIC |     | DOIC   |     | DOIC   |             =
             | DOIC   |                | DOIC   |
> | support |      | support |     | support|     | support|             =
             | support|                | support|=20
> +---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+             =
             +--------+                +--------+
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              |<---DOIC association =
1------------------------->|<-------DOIC association 2-->|
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              |<-----------------DOIC =
association 3----------------------------------------->|
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |----1.xxR------->|---2.xxR----->|              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              =
|---3.xxR----->|----4.xxR----------------------->|                       =
      |
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |--------5.xxR--------------->|=20
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |<-------6.xxA----------------|
>    |                 |              =
|<--8.xxA------|<---7.xxA------------------------|                       =
      |
>    |<---10.xxA-------|<--9.xxA------|              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |----11.xxR------>|---12.xxR---->|              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              =
|---13.xxR---->|-----14.xxR--------------------->|-------15.xxR-----------=
---->|
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              =
|<---18.xxA----|<----17.xxA----------------------|<-----16.xxA------------=
-----|
>    |<---20.xxA-------|<---19.xxA----|              |                   =
              |                             |
>    |                 |              |              |                   =
              |                             |
> DOIC association 1 is for realm type requests;=20
> DOIC association 2 is for request for which A4 selects the server
> DOIC association 3 is for host type requests
>=20
> 1. the client that does not support DOIC sends 1.xxR (realm type =
request not containing destination host) to the next hop; 1.xxR does not =
contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP
> 2. the agent A1 that does not support DOIC forwards the request to the =
next hop; 2.xxR still dos not contain an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
> 3. the agent A2 that supports DOIC decides to take the role of a =
reacting endpoint; it inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP into 3.xxR =
indicating support of features 1 and 2 (in this example).
> 4. agent A3, although it supports DOIC, does not take the role of a =
reacting endpoint (because 3.xxR contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP); =
it also does not take the role of a reporting endpoint since it is not =
configured to act as reporting endpoint for the destination realm =
received in 3.xxR; 4.xxR (unmodified) is sent to the next hop.
> 5. agent A4 is configured to take the role of the reporting endpoint =
for the realm. It therefore removes the OC-Supported-Features AVP =
reveived in 4.xxR and inserts its own supported features (in this =
example features 1 and 3) in 5.xxR. A4 also selects the server to which =
5.xxR is sent.
> 6. the server (that supports DOIC e.g. features 1 and 3) returns 6.xxA =
including an OLR1 (host type) requesting a feature 3 specific traffic =
reduction (e.g. window size 20).=20
> 7. A4 calculates the overall realm overload level, removes the =
received OLR1 and adds its own calculated realm type OLR2 (e.g. a =
feature 1 specific traffic reduction of 50%-loss) to 7.xxA. A4 stores =
OLR1 for later use.
> 8. A3 not taking any DOIC role forwards the answer unmodified.
> 9. agent A2 may remove the reveived OLR2 when sending 9.xxA. A2 stores =
OLR2 for later use.
> 10. A1 not supporting DOIC is transparent.
> 11. client sends a new request 11.xxR (containing destination host as =
learnd from 10.xxA; no OC-Supported-Features AVP included.
> 12. A1 is transparent.
> 13. A2 decides to take the role of the reacting endpoint and includes =
again its supported features 1 and 2 in OC-Supported-Features AVO sent =
within 13.xxR.
> 14. A3 is transparent
> 15. A4 is transparent for host type requests that contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP.
> 16. server returns 16.xxA including a host type OLR3 requesting a =
feature 1 specific traffic reduction of e.g. 30%-loss.
> 17. A4 is transparent
> 18. A3 is transparent
> 19. A2 stores OLR3 for later use and may remove OLR3 when sending =
19.xxA.
> 20. client receives 20.xxA.
> </Ulrich>

Thanks for the diagram. It is pretty thorough.


>=20
> Four scenarios must be supported:
>=20
>   - Scenario 1 - There is both an upstream and downstream DOIC =
association.
> <Ulrich> for example see A4 in the figure above </Ulrich>
>   - Scenario 2 - There is no upstream DOIC association
> <Ulrich> do you mean "There is a downstream DOIC association but no =
upstream DOIC association"? Not covered in the figure above. </Ulrich>
>   - Scenario 3 - There is no downstream DOIC association
> <Ulrich> do you mean "There is an upstream DOIC association but no =
downstream DOIC association"? for example see A2 in the figure above =
</Ulrich>=20
>   - Scenario 4 - No DOIC association in either direction
> <Ulrich> for example see A3 in the figure above </Ulrich>
>=20
> Scenario 1 - Both upstream and downstream DOIC associations
>=20
> Request message handling:
>=20
> A DOC agent that receives a request that contains the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP must act as an endpoint for the downstream =
DOIC association.
> <Ulrich> NO! see A3 receiving 3.xxR or 13.xxR (this may not be =
scenario 1, but how does the agent know which scenario =
applies?)</Ulrich>
>=20
> If the DOC agent relays or proxies the request message then the agent =
must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.  The =
contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, =
all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.  =
If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent =
OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP.
> <Ulrich>There cannot be more than one OC-Supported-Features AVPs in =
one request. An agent that inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP must =
remove the received OC-Supported-Features AVP (see A4 when sending =
5.xxR). The inserted OC-Supported Features AVP shall indicate the =
features the inserting node supports, not more, not less</Ulrich>
>=20
> If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the =
received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must modify the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.  The =
modified OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed =
request message.
>=20
>   Note: any DOIC extension must define the changes needed to the =
OC-Feature-Vector AVP and any additional AVPs that need to be added to =
the OC-Supported-Features AVP as part of the capabilities advertisement =
for that feature.
>=20
> Question: Should there be an indication that the contents of the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP was changed?
> <Ulrich> no. for what reason? </Ulrich>
>=20
> Question: Will this work when end-to-end security is introduced?  =
Would adding a separate OC-Supported-Features AVP be better, especially =
when end-to-end security is considered?
> <Ulrich> what is the issue? </Ulrich>

With e2e security, modified AVPs fail the integrity check and therefore
are subject to be rejected..

>=20
> Answer message handling:
>=20
> When an agent receives the  answer message that corresponds to the =
above request message
> <Ulrich> i.e. the request message into which the agent has inserted =
its OC-Supported-Features AVP </Ulrich>
> , the agent must act as the DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC =
association. =20
>=20
> If the DOC agent relays or proxies the answer message then the agent =
must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.
> <Ulrich> OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages is an open issue =
</Ulrich>

I don't think this is an open issue.. we already had supported features
in answers covered Section 5.3.


>   The contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a =
minimum, all of the content included in the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP.  If the agent does not support any additional =
features then the sent OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as =
the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.
>=20
> If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the =
received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent should modify the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.  The =
modified OC-Supported Features AVP must be included in the relayed =
answer message.
>=20
> Scenario 2 - No downstream DOIC association with an upstream =
association
> <Ulrich> wasn't that scenario 3? </Ulrich>
>=20
> In this case a request is received that does not contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP.
>=20
> Request message handling:
>=20
> If a DOC agent receives a request that does NOT contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must generate an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the =
DOC agent.  The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the =
relayed/proxied request message.
>=20
> The agent will then become the reacting DOIC endpoint for the upstream =
DOIC association that results from the transaction. =20
>=20
> Note: Section x.x.x defines agent behavior when it is the reacting =
node for a DOIC association.
>=20
> Answer message handling
>=20
> In this case the answer message will contain an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP.  The DOC agent must store the advertised capabilities for use when =
the DOC agent reacts to an overload report from the upstream Diameter =
node.
>=20
> The DOC agent should remove the OC-Supported-Features AVP from the =
answer message before relaying/proxying the answer message. =20
>=20
> Scenario 3 - Downstream DOC association with no upstream DOIC =
association
> <Ulrich> wasn't this scenario 2? </Ulrich>
>=20
> In this case a OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the request =
from the downstream Diameter entity but no OC-Supported-Features AVP is =
received in the answer message received from the upstream Diameter =
entity.  In this case the agent must act as the reporting DOIC endpoint =
for the downstream DOIC association.
> <Ulrich> this is totally new to me. Where does this come from? If a =
server does not support DOIC it cannot request load reduction from a =
downstream agent. The downstream agent (even if it would detect the =
DOIC-non-support of the server) cannot request load reduction from =
further downstream nodes on behalf of the server </Ulrich>
>=20
> Request message handling:
>=20
> Request message handling is the same as for scenario 1.
>=20
> Answer message handling:
>=20
> If a DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that includes an upstream =
DOC association then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.  The =
generation of this OC-Supported-Features AVP must also follow the rules =
specified in section 5.3.2.  The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be =
included in the relayed/proxied the answer message.
>=20
> Scenario 4 - No upstream association and no downstream association
>=20
> Request message handling:
>=20
> The request message handling in this case is the same as scenario 2.
>=20
> Answer message handling:
>=20
> If the DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that does not include a =
downstream DOC association then the agent must NOT generate an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP.  The DOC Agent must relay/proxy the answer =
message with no DOIC related change.
>=20
> <Ulrich> the open issue seems to be: How can an agent determine which =
scenario is applicable? Let me try:
> An agent that does not support DOIC is always in scenario 4 (no =
upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association).
> For an agent that supports DOIC:
> When receiving a request that does not contain an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP the agent is in scenario 3 or 4 (no downstream =
DOIC association). Whether its 3 or 4 depends on whether or not an OLR =
is received in the corresponding answer.
> When receiving a host type request (a request that contains a =
Destination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP the =
agent is in scenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC =
association)
> When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a =
Destination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the =
agent is configured to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent =
is scenario 1 or 2 (there is a downstream DOIC association). Whether its =
1 or 2 depends on whether or not an OLR is received in the corresponding =
answer.
> When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a =
Destination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the =
agent is configured not to act as reporting node for that realm, the =
agent is in scenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC =
association). </Ulrich>

I tend to agree most of <ulrich> assertions. However, I need to reread
this mail/proposal a couple of time since my attention span has =
difficulties
with very long mails :)

- Jouni



>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 11:45:08 +0200
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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC endpoint behavior - Agent Overload Report handling
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Comments inline:

On Feb 4, 2014, at 3:29 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> The following wording is proposed to be added to section 5.5 on =
Overload Report Processing.
>=20
> This goes along with the proposed wording for agent involvement in =
capability exchange.
>=20
> The most important piece of behavior proposed is for the case when the =
agent is a back-to-back DOIC association agent as illustrated here:
>=20
>   DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream =
DOIC association--> DOC  node
>=20
> In this case, it is proposed that when the DOC agent receives a host =
or realm overload report the DOC agent simply passes it on without =
taking further action.  The goal being to do the overload abatement as =
close to the source of the request as possible.
>=20
> The text isn't perfect yet, but I wanted to get the basic behavior =
proposal across.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> 5.5.4 Agent Considerations
>=20
> As discussed in section x.x.x, agents can take on the role of =
reporting node and reacting node.
>=20
> Agent as reporting node
>=20
> A DOC agent will take on the role of a reporting node any time that =
there is a downstream DOIC association.
>=20
> For the report types supporting in this document, an agent should only =
originate an overload report in two cases:
>=20
> - When the agent is acting as overload authority for a set of servers. =
 In this case, requests are sent to the destination-host of the agent =
and the agent is responsible for reporting on the overload state when =
the server farm represented by that destination-host value is entering =
an overloaded condition.

Makes sense and is inline what I originally thought.

> - When the agent is acting as overload authority for a realm.  In this =
case, the agent is responsible for inserting realm based overload =
reports into answer messages from servers in that realm.

Ok.

> Agent as reacting node
>=20
> An agent will take on the role of a reacting node whenever there is an =
upstream DOIC association.  In this case, the agent will be reacting to =
host overload reports.
>=20
> The behavior of the agent acting as a reacting node depends on whether =
or not there is a downstream association.
>=20
> If there is a downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent should =
pass any overload report on to the downstream Diameter node without =
taking any further action.
>=20
>   Note: This is based on the assumption that it is best to handle the =
overload instance as close to the source of the Diameter transaction as =
possible.
>=20
>   Note: This is not a must because there could be operator specific =
policies that result in handling of the overload condition in the agent.

I kind of agree Ulrich's concern here. If the two
associations have different supported features some
modifications may be needed on the OLRs. However, I
also think the "the DOC agent should pass any" is
enough to cover the case Ulrich points at, assuming
we note the case where downstream and upstream
associations have different capabilities.

>=20
> If there is no downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent is =
responsible for handling the overload condition.  In this case the DOC =
agent must throttle requests targeted for the host or realm indicated in =
the overload report.  The method used should be consistent with the =
considerations outlined in section 5.5.2.

Ok.

- Jouni

>=20
> When a request message is selected for throttling, the DOC agent must =
generate the appropriate error response message.
>=20
> Editors note: the error message to be sent is TBD.
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <13009_1391526065_52F100B1_13009_2160_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4770B0@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:04:22 +0200
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To: lionel.morand@orange.com
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to =
solve it is not the correct one.

Agree.

> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with =
several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with =
the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.

The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.

> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it =
is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given =
algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 =
AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to =
indicate the abatement to perform.

My intention was always allow:

  client announces  ABC
  server supports    BCD
  server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
  alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies

> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.

Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
abatement algorithm..=20

> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along =
with the OC-OLR AVP.

It is already today if you only support the default, right.

- Jouni

>=20
> Lionel=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism =
in
> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP
> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the =
reacting
> DOIC endpoint.
> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node =
can do
> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
> messages.
> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no =
other
> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not =
receiving
> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>=20
> a) There is no overload
> b) DOIC is not supported
>=20
> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between =
these
> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>    If there is no single matching
>    capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>    DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>    messages with this specific reacting node.
>=20
> This however is inconsistent.
> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a =
different
> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the =
role
> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role =
since
> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
> Supported-Features AVPs.
> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  =
draft-ietf-
> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
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> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
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> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
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> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:09:05 +0200
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References: <066.d4a6efb42ff3bd328e8b56b872c4e1a7@trac.tools.ietf.org> <13009_1391526065_52F100B1_13009_2160_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4770B0@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B1EA9@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <7610_1391532667_52F11A7B_7610_3074_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4774C1@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B1F71@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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On Feb 5, 2014, at 10:03 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Hi Loinel,
>=20
> it seems that we can safely remove OC-Supported-Feature AVP from =
answer messages in the draft-ietf-dime-ovli (which does not define =
extensions to itself). This does not mean that a future extension cannot =
(re)-introduce it when needed. It also does not mean that reporting =
nodes are not allowed to include it in answer messages as long as answer =
messages have a *[AVP].

Not so fast. Leaving OC-Supported-Feature AVP away from the=20
answer is already supported by the -01. So there is nothing
to fix in that part.

The thing that need to be fixed is the inconsistency on you
pointed out which would make reacting node not to send any
DOIC AVPs.

- JOuni

>=20
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20=

> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 5:51 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> Hi Ulrich,
>=20
> For the point 2 and 3, the difference between the "Should" and the =
"May" is quite subtle here and is for me only an implementation option.
>=20
> For 4 and 5, ok if the node only supports the default algo. In other =
words, only the OLR matters for nodes supporting only the default algo. =
The rest is purely for information and can be safely ignored.
>=20
> For 6, if the new feature consists in a new algo, it would mean =
defining a new dedicated OLR AVP. So nodes supporting only the default =
algo will ignore any unknown AVP if received.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 17:04
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : RE: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> Dear Lionel,
>=20
> thank you for your response.
>=20
> If I correctly understand, the principles would be:
> 1. Sending OC-Supported-Features in answer messages is syntactically =
optional.
> 2. When the reacting node does only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO , the =
reporting node should not insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the =
answer message.
> 3. When the reporting node does only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO, it =
should not insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the answer message.
> 4. A reacting node that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely =
ignore OC-Supported-Features AVPs received in answer messages.
> 5. A reacting node that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely =
ignor all extensions received in an OC-OLR.
> 6. When a new feature is introduced, the spec introducing the new =
feature must define the details to ensure interoperability of nodes =
supporting the new feature with nodes that do not support the new =
feature (taking into account that nodes not supporting the new feature =
act according to the principles 1.-5.).
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext =
lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 4:01 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
>=20
> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to =
solve it is not the correct one.
> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with =
several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with =
the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>=20
> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it =
is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given =
algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 =
AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to =
indicate the abatement to perform.
>=20
> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>=20
> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along =
with the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> Lionel=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism =
in
> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP
> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the =
reacting
> DOIC endpoint.
> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node =
can do
> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
> messages.
> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no =
other
> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not =
receiving
> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>=20
> a) There is no overload
> b) DOIC is not supported
>=20
> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between =
these
> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>    If there is no single matching
>    capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>    DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>    messages with this specific reacting node.
>=20
> This however is inconsistent.
> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a =
different
> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the =
role
> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role =
since
> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
> Supported-Features AVPs.
> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  =
draft-ietf-
> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Few comments here.

On Feb 4, 2014, at 10:54 AM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:

> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20
> Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
> treatment of a given report type applies.
> Proposal:
>=20
>    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its =
value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received =
message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

It is perfectly valid to send a request that has Destination-Host AVP
but no Destination-Realm AVP. It just means the Diameter nodes must=20
be adjacent peers.=20

>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers=20
to the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.

>    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

Same not as above.

- JOuni

>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/34>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Fri Feb  7 02:19:31 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Hi Maria Cruz,

I'm fine with the proposed clarification.
My point is that some parts belong to the handling of the OLR itself and so=
me other to the definition of the Validity duration.

Here is a proposal for clarification. Let me know if it covers your concern.

Regards,

Lionel

*******************

4.3. OC-OLR AVP

[skip]

   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint to
   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
   is less than previously received one.

[New]

   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP indicates the validity time of the overload
   report associated with a specific sequence number, measured after recept=
ion
   of the OC-OLR AVP. The validity time MUST NOT be updated after reception=
=20
   of subsequent OC-OLR AVPs with the same sequence number. The default val=
ue
   for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e., 5 seconds).  When the=
=20
   OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the OC-OLR AVP, the default v=
alue
   applies.

[Skip]

4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP

OLD:
   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
   Duration AVP were not present.


NEW:
   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and indicates in seconds the validity time of the overload report.
   The number of seconds is measured after reception of the first=20
   OC-OLR AVP with a given value of OC-Sequence-Number AVP.=20
   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is 5 (i.e.,
   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies. OC-Validity-Duration AVP values 0
   (i.e., 0 second) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
   When invalid values are used, the default value for the OC-Validity-Dura=
tion
   AVP applies.




-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 08:38
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hello Lionel, all,

I would like to clarify what  "new and fresh", or even only "new" OC-OLR AV=
P mean in the text.
It should be understood that it does not refer to the new (latest) received=
 AVP, but just the one that contains (potentially) new values, what only ha=
ppens for a new Sequence Number. In that line is the proposed text I provid=
ed.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 8:33
To: dime@ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi,

My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the defi=
nition and the use of the AVP.

And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how to pop=
ulate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.

Regards,

Lionel

Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange

Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :


Thanks Lionel,
The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the Validity-Duration =
should include a new value.

Now:
   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.


Best regards
/MCruz


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi Maria Cruz,

Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,

Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.

The current text in the draft says:

4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP


   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
   Duration AVP were not present.

   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.

   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
   reporting node.

I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should remain i=
ndependent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
The sequence number does not change the value of the OC-Validity-Duration A=
VP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or not. And if it is, a new=
 duration will be there (either implicit or explicit with the OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP).

So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should be in =
the handling of the OLR.

Regards,

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan Envoy=
=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [=
dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02 ve=
rsion of the draft unless I hear objections soon.

Steve
On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
#36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

 In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when =
 the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.

 Now:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.



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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> I better like Lionel=92s approach, but even that is not ok in the =
unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not =
overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm =
overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending =
host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?

Isn't this what Lionel said below? I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext =
lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the =
routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present =
over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case =
except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
> =20
> Lioenl
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests =
targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies =
that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host =
specified.
>=20
> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify =
the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>=20
> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host =
second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of =
realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the =
reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host =
that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it =
prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the =
whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the =
reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always =
for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the =
request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been =
received for this destination-host.
> =20
> Does it make sense?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>  treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
> =20
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its =
value
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received =
message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request =
matches the
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of =
the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR =
AVP.
> =20
> =20
> =20
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request =
matches the
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of =
the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR =
AVP.
> =20
> =20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
> =20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
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> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
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> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
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> =20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
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To: lionel.morand@orange.com
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #28: Report type support in capabilities?
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Agree.

On Feb 5, 2014, at 7:09 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> The default mechanism implies that a client will be able to manage =
both types of report. Therefore there is no need at this stage IMHO.
>=20
> In future, if there is a need to explicitly indicate which report type =
a node support, it may be a hint for defining different =
capabilities/algos. And this new capability will be described a new =
companion document.
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue =
tracker
> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 31 janvier 2014 23:16
> =C0 : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #28: Report type support in capabilities?
>=20
> #28: Report type support in capabilities?
>=20
> This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli
>=20
> This is more of a question than an issue.
>=20
> We currently only include the abatement algorithm in the =
OC-Feature-Vector
> AVP.  The question is whether we should expand it to include support =
for
> the host(server) report and realm report.
>=20
> The reason for the question is that the agent overload extension will
> likely include an indicator in the OC-Feature-Vector of support for =
the
> peer report type.
>=20
> --=20
> =
-------------------------------------+------------------------------------=
-
> Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  srdonovan@usdonovans.com           |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
> Priority:  minor                    |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:
> Severity:  Submitted WG Document    |   Keywords:
> =
-------------------------------------+------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/28>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
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> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
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> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
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My personal take is that we should simply say it is
a NTP timestamp and not fuzzy around it with other
possible treatment possibilities.

- Jouni


On Feb 4, 2014, at 10:49 AM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:

> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>=20
> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>    =46rom the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP =
MUST
>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>    related or correlated.
>=20
>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>=20
>=20
> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are =
out
> of sync (for whatever reason).
> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit =
NTP
> timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was =
created,
> and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of =
reception
> must be ignored by the reacting node.
>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/32>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:52:42 +0200
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References: <075.376f1b94eeb48f20f90d9724b0e70c0e@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F3ABA5.30504@usdonovans.com> <6764_1391710024_52F3CF48_6764_4871_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48EEEE@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772061@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <21997_1391758373_52F48C25_21997_132_1_c9aldckjsu8oeuya3nuk8i3w.1391758370310@email.android.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097720CF@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <18811_1391768364_52F4B32C_18811_19518_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49093A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
To: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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OK by me.

- JOuni

On Feb 7, 2014, at 12:19 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> I'm fine with the proposed clarification.
> My point is that some parts belong to the handling of the OLR itself =
and some other to the definition of the Validity duration.
>=20
> Here is a proposal for clarification. Let me know if it covers your =
concern.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> *******************
>=20
> 4.3. OC-OLR AVP
>=20
> [skip]
>=20
>   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
>   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
>   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
>   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint =
to
>   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
>   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
>   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number =
that
>   is less than previously received one.
>=20
> [New]
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP indicates the validity time of the =
overload
>   report associated with a specific sequence number, measured after =
reception
>   of the OC-OLR AVP. The validity time MUST NOT be updated after =
reception=20
>   of subsequent OC-OLR AVPs with the same sequence number. The default =
value
>   for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e., 5 seconds).  When =
the=20
>   OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the OC-OLR AVP, the =
default value
>   applies.
>=20
> [Skip]
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> OLD:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>=20
> NEW:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and indicates in seconds the validity time of the overload report.
>   The number of seconds is measured after reception of the first=20
>   OC-OLR AVP with a given value of OC-Sequence-Number AVP.=20
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies. OC-Validity-Duration AVP =
values 0
>   (i.e., 0 second) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   When invalid values are used, the default value for the =
OC-Validity-Duration
>   AVP applies.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz =
Bartolome
> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 08:38
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hello Lionel, all,
>=20
> I would like to clarify what  "new and fresh", or even only "new" =
OC-OLR AVP mean in the text.
> It should be understood that it does not refer to the new (latest) =
received AVP, but just the one that contains (potentially) new values, =
what only happens for a new Sequence Number. In that line is the =
proposed text I provided.
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 8:33
> To: dime@ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the =
definition and the use of the AVP.
>=20
> And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how =
to populate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange
>=20
> Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :
>=20
>=20
> Thanks Lionel,
> The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the =
Validity-Duration should include a new value.
>=20
> Now:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content =
is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,
>=20
> Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.
>=20
> The current text in the draft says:
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
>   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
>   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
>   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.
>=20
>   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
>   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
>   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
>   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
>   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
>   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
>   reporting node.
>=20
> I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should =
remain independent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
> The sequence number does not change the value of the =
OC-Validity-Duration AVP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or =
not. And if it is, a new duration will be there (either implicit or =
explicit with the OC-Validity-Duration AVP).
>=20
> So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should =
be in the handling of the OLR.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan =
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: =
[Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the =
-02 version of the draft unless I hear objections soon.
>=20
> Steve
> On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes =
when  the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.
>=20
> Now:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content =
is
>    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by =
the
>    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content =
is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =
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>=20
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>=20
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>=20
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>=20
> =
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>=20
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>=20
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>=20
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
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>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
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> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Fri Feb  7 03:05:24 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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Steve,

sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after =
OLR expiry.
This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything ab=
out it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any va=
lue.


Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR

A couple of things -

The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over tim=
e, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but i=
s not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set t=
he sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and th=
en increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload =
report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as=
 it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global se=
quence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server q=
uery that global sequence number server after each reboot.

We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way t=
o reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an =
active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reaso=
n to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could=
, conceivably have any value.

The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter s=
pecification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and=
 eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation =
is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.

It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP ti=
mestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a simil=
ar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory =
portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the=
 implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."

Steve
On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.

But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:



Assume the sender sends sequence numbers

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....

but the receicer for any reason receives

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....

The receiver would accept

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000

and then silently discards

3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....

with no way to come back to sync.



Are we sure that this cannot happen?



Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausi=
bility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time =
of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem=
. But in the moment I don't see another way.



Ulrich





-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM

To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always=
 increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the=
 sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a=
 good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an i=
nterop requirement.



On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wr=
ote:



Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is =
a case for a "MUST".

We are not violating anything.



Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to k=
now how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format o=
f the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR



I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet t=
he requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementatio=
n. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Sect=
ion 6 of 2119 includes the following:



"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is

  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has

  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "



The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected =
peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectl=
y reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-norma=
tive (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good wa=
y to do this.



On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@o=
range.com> wrote:



I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to =
mandate a specific semantic.



Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a s=
imple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?



Lionel



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR



How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  Ther=
e is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be incl=
uded only as one way of addressing the requirement.



Steve



On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:

I also agree.



Regards,

Nirav.



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.

If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!



In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequ=
ence-number.



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR



#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR



The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:

   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST

   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload

   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP

   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only

   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.

   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two

   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not

   related or correlated.



   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be

   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two

   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the

   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).





With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  o=
f sync (for whatever reason).

It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  ti=
mestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  a=
nd to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  m=
ust be ignored by the reacting node.





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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.



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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">sounds lik=
e an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after OLR expiry=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This requi=
res however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Once the overload report expire=
s there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload re=
port received could, conceivably have any value.
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values wi=
thin OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">A couple of things - =
<br>
<br>
The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over tim=
e, including over a reboot.&nbsp; Use of NTP time is one way of doing this =
but is not the only way.&nbsp; Someone could, for instance, use a time stam=
p to set the sequence number for the first
 overload report sent after a reboot and then increment the sequence number=
 value by one for each subsequent overload report sent.&nbsp; This actually=
 has better properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer =
to roll over.&nbsp; One could also create
 a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diame=
ter server query that global sequence number server after each reboot.<br>
<br>
We also have a duration timer on overload reports.&nbsp; This gives us one =
way to reset.&nbsp; It should only be required to remember the sequence num=
ber of an active overload report.&nbsp; Once the overload report expires th=
ere is no reason to remember anything about it
 and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. <=
br>
<br>
The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter s=
pecification.&nbsp; The wording there is -- &quot;The Session-Id MUST be gl=
obally and eternally unique&quot;.&nbsp; We just need eternally as the spac=
ial differentiation is based on the context of the message
 carrying the overload report.<br>
<br>
It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP ti=
mestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a simil=
ar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory =
portion and an implementation-defined
 portion; a recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is ou=
tlined below<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"=
>
</span>...&quot;<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) w=
rote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Assume the sender sends sequence numbers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>but the receicer for any reason receives <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,...=
. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The receiver would accept<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and then silently discards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....&nbsp; 4, 5, .... <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>with no way to come back to sync.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Are we sure that this cannot happen?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and p=
lausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and =
time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the pr=
oblem. But in the moment I don't see another way.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number a=
lways increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement tha=
t the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is proba=
bly a good way to&nbsp; meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in it=
self, an interop requirement.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of &quot;interop requiremen=
t&quot;, it is a case for a &quot;MUST&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>We are not violating anything.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces=
 to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the for=
mat of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to m=
eet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implemen=
tation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 &quot;MUST&quot; level requirement=
 to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where =
it is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which=
 has<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)&nb=
sp; &quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expe=
cted peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be per=
fectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-=
normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a go=
od way to do this.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use cas=
e to mandate a specific semantic.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it i=
s a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.&=
nbsp; There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.&nbsp; That=
 should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I also agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nirav.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">l=
ionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If it is &quot;like an NTP timestamp&quot;, be proud and say it loud!<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this=
 sequence-number.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Num=
ber AVP MUST<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two =
overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents =
of the AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).&nbsp; The sequence =
number is only<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; required to be unique between two overload control endpoi=
nts.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i=
.e. two<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints =
are not<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; related or correlated.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number=
 MUST be<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; greater than any sequence number previously seen between =
two<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparo=
und of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are o=
ut&nbsp; of sync (for whatever reason).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NT=
P&nbsp; timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was c=
reated,&nbsp; and to mandate that&nbsp; OLRs with a time stamp higher than =
time of reception&nbsp; must be ignored by the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 13:08:15 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Jouni=20
Please see inline.
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Jouni Korhonen
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:14 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


Few comments here.

On Feb 4, 2014, at 10:54 AM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org> wrote:

> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20
> Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
> treatment of a given report type applies.
> Proposal:
>=20
>    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches th=
e
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

It is perfectly valid to send a request that has Destination-Host AVP
but no Destination-Realm AVP. It just means the Diameter nodes must=20
be adjacent peers.=20
<Ulrich> ok, then let's remove b) from 0</Ulrich>

>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers=20
to the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.
<Ulrich>yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not harm to ke=
ep c)</Ulrich>

>    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches th=
e
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

Same not as above.
<Ulrich> I understand that this "above" referrs to 0c), not to 0b).
 Same response as above. </Ulrich>

- JOuni

>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/34>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely =
extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at =
all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why sh=
ould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the no=
t at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?

Isn't this what Lionel said below?
<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
 I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@=
orange.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing =
principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destina=
tion-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there i=
s an explicit report for the destination-host.
> =20
> Lioenl
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests tar=
geted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that i=
t would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>=20
> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the i=
nteraction between realm reports and host reports.
>=20
> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host sec=
ond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm=
 overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction =
needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive rea=
lm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohib=
ited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole rea=
lm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the re=
acting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for t=
he realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... e=
xcept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this =
destination-host.
> =20
> Does it make sense?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>  treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
> =20
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its valu=
e
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messag=
e
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> =20
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
> =20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
> =20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
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> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Fri Feb  7 05:54:47 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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See inline

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:09 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s


On Feb 5, 2014, at 10:03 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wieh=
e@nsn.com> wrote:

> Hi Loinel,
>=20
> it seems that we can safely remove OC-Supported-Feature AVP from answer m=
essages in the draft-ietf-dime-ovli (which does not define extensions to it=
self). This does not mean that a future extension cannot (re)-introduce it =
when needed. It also does not mean that reporting nodes are not allowed to =
include it in answer messages as long as answer messages have a *[AVP].

Not so fast. Leaving OC-Supported-Feature AVP away from the=20
answer is already supported by the -01. So there is nothing
to fix in that part.
<Ulrich> it seems you agree that=20
a) reporting nodes that only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO are not required to s=
end OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages (of course they may if the=
re is the *[AVP])
b) reacting nodes that only support  OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely ignore OC-=
Supported-Features AVPs received in answer messages
c) behavior of the reacting node that only supports OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO does n=
ot depend on presence/absence of OC-Supported-Features AVPs in received ans=
wer messages
if that's agreed, why not say so clearly in the draft?
(the clear way to say so is to remove this AVP from answers. </Ulrich>


The thing that need to be fixed is the inconsistency on you
pointed out which would make reacting node not to send any
DOIC AVPs.

- JOuni

>=20
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 5:51 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> Hi Ulrich,
>=20
> For the point 2 and 3, the difference between the "Should" and the "May" =
is quite subtle here and is for me only an implementation option.
>=20
> For 4 and 5, ok if the node only supports the default algo. In other word=
s, only the OLR matters for nodes supporting only the default algo. The res=
t is purely for information and can be safely ignored.
>=20
> For 6, if the new feature consists in a new algo, it would mean defining =
a new dedicated OLR AVP. So nodes supporting only the default algo will ign=
ore any unknown AVP if received.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 17:04
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : RE: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> Dear Lionel,
>=20
> thank you for your response.
>=20
> If I correctly understand, the principles would be:
> 1. Sending OC-Supported-Features in answer messages is syntactically opti=
onal.
> 2. When the reacting node does only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO , the report=
ing node should not insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the answer messa=
ge.
> 3. When the reporting node does only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO, it should =
not insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the answer message.
> 4. A reacting node that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely ignore =
OC-Supported-Features AVPs received in answer messages.
> 5. A reacting node that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely ignor a=
ll extensions received in an OC-OLR.
> 6. When a new feature is introduced, the spec introducing the new feature=
 must define the details to ensure interoperability of nodes supporting the=
 new feature with nodes that do not support the new feature (taking into ac=
count that nodes not supporting the new feature act according to the princi=
ples 1.-5.).
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@=
orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 4:01 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messa=
ges
>=20
> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to solv=
e it is not the correct one.
> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with seve=
ral algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-Fe=
ature-Vector AVP.
>=20
> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it is=
 not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo w=
hen more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for 2=
 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the =
abatement to perform.
>=20
> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported =
algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP =
for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be cre=
ated when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explici=
t.
>=20
> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with=
 the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> Lionel=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in
> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reactin=
g
> DOIC endpoint.
> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can d=
o
> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
> messages.
> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other
> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receivin=
g
> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>=20
> a) There is no overload
> b) DOIC is not supported
>=20
> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these
> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>    If there is no single matching
>    capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>    DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>    messages with this specific reacting node.
>=20
> This however is inconsistent.
> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a differen=
t
> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the rol=
e
> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since
> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
> Supported-Features AVPs.
> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-ietf=
-
> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 15:26:50 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Dear all,

I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he pro=
vided.
----
As a summary:
Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent =
and host type OLRs from the servers.
The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sen=
ding/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be rel=
evant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type request=
s.
-----

It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and th=
en it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not =
apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client=
 will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has be=
en received by Client.
The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plu=
s Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the so=
lution.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
To: ext Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely =
extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at =
all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why sh=
ould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the no=
t at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?

Isn't this what Lionel said below?
<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
 I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@=
orange.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing =
principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destina=
tion-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there i=
s an explicit report for the destination-host.
> =20
> Lioenl
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests tar=
geted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that i=
t would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>=20
> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the i=
nteraction between realm reports and host reports.
>=20
> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host sec=
ond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm=
 overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction =
needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive rea=
lm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohib=
ited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole rea=
lm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the re=
acting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for t=
he realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... e=
xcept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this =
destination-host.
> =20
> Does it make sense?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>  treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
> =20
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its valu=
e
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messag=
e
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> =20
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
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#37: Inconsistent name and abbreviation

 The introduction refers to the mechanism as Diameter Overload Control
 (DOC). Elsewhere it's Diameter Overload Information Conveyance (DOIC). We
 need to pick one and stick with it.

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  trivial      |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/37>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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#38: Server Farm Definition Issue

 A "server farm" is defined as "A set of Diameter servers that can handle
 any request for a given set of Diameter applications.". This is not
 strictly true. For example, if a request includes a Destination-Server
 AVP, then then in general only that particular server in the farm can
 handle the request.

 I assume that we don't mean to limit the server farm concept to situations
 where the entire farm is known by a single Diameter-Identity, do we?

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#39: Definition of Diameter Routing

 Do we need this definition? Diameter routing should be fully defined by
 the base specification.

 But if we do, I think the phrase "non-adjacent nodes" in the first
 sentence is misleading. Destination-Realm is also used to route between
 adjacent nodes, at least until you reach the node responsible for the
 ream+application. We should also include Application-Id.

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#39: Definition of Diameter Routing


Comment (by ben@nostrum.com):

 (Oops, sent to soon). The last sentence says "It is possible to enhance
 the routing decision with application-level knowledge..." The passive
 voice obscures the responsibility. What actor may do this? (I suggest
 recasting the sentence as "XXX may enhance..."

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#40: Need defintions for Overload Report and Abatement Algorithm

 Both are mentioned in other definitions but not defined themselves.

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#41: Need better overview

 The overview is short on explanation. We need a high level, non-normative
 "how it works" description of the mechanism, including roles,
 responsibilities, associations, and information flows. This doesn't need
 too much detail (e.g. message and AVP definitions belong elsewhere.)

 Some of the information in the endpoint architecture section would be
 better off here.

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#42: IETF defined example of a stateless application.

 In section 3.1.1, under the definition of "Stateless Application", is
 there an IETF defined application that can be added as an example? Not all
 readers may be familiar with 3GPP applications.

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Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/42>
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From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Fri Feb  7 13:34:28 2014
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#43: Overstated guidance on session-ending requests.

 In section 3.1.4, under "Intra-Session Requests" indicates that session
 ending requests should be throttled less aggressively. While I agree
 that's a good idea in general, I think that's a mater of local policy, and
 not up to DOIC to specify.

 It would be better to indicate that prioritization under overload is up to
 local policy, and list prioritizing of session-ending requests as an
 example of a potential local policy.

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
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  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/43>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Fri Feb  7 13:49:10 2014
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#44: Incorrect sequence number behavior

 section 4.3 says that the receiver should discard an OLR with a sequence
 number less than the most recent. That should be less than or equal.
 Technically, re-applying the same OLR should make no difference, but it's
 never needed, and could be error prone if the sender screwed something up.

-- 
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-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/44>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Fri Feb  7 13:54:45 2014
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#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

 Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
 disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
 condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
 (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
 condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
 sense for all future ones.)

 Note that setting an expiration time to zero is the standard way of
 removing state in several other protocols (e.g. SIP).

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/45>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Fri Feb  7 13:59:46 2014
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#46: Bad normative advice on not letting overload reports expire

 Section 4.5 says " As a general guidance for implementations it is
 RECOMMENDED never to let any overload report to timeout." In my opinion,
 this is bad advice. If an overload report is close to expiring anyway,
 it's better to just let it expire than to generate a new report to end the
 condition.

 Furthermore, this falls into the category of normative language that does
 not effect interoperability. That is forbidden by RFC 2119, except for
 situations where not following it does significant harm. If we believe
 letting reports expire does significant harm, we should explain why.

-- 
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-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/46>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Fri Feb  7 14:05:31 2014
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#47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored

 Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are
 interpreted as 100."

 An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates
 incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe
 to assume we know what the sender really intended.

-- 
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-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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#48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics

 Multiple sections indicate that a new application that incorporates DOIC
 can set the M-Bit on DOIC sub-avps. I don't think this ever does the right
 thing.

 IIUC, If a node that otherwise supports DOIC encounters a DOIC avp that it
 doesn't understand, and has the M-Bit set, it will cause a failure of the
 application command. I don't think we want the lack of support of some
 DOIC feature or extension to ever cause an application-level failure.  I
 think we are looking for something that would just cause the OLR to be
 ignored.

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/48>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
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#49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought

 The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
 Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a capabilities
 announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime to
 Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different capability
 sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for non-session
 applications or pseudo-sessions.)

 I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are stateless,
 that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a response must
 match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
 Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set associated
 with a capabilities set.

 (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting agents. If
 we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
 negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  critical     |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/49>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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References: <066.f8b7ffcffcd55b9e56fa2bfc281d4649@trac.tools.ietf.org> <29423_1391537999_52F12F4F_29423_3802_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E47772A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A4B@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F24BC0.6070600@usdonovans.com> <29564_1391614624_52F25AA0_29564_1057_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487344@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2ACDC7E8-A46D-4618-92CE-B793AF3A8F75@nostrum.com> <29459_1391615624_52F25E88_29459_734_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4873CD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <29FCFFE7-64BF-4928-A3DF-F2FC0D1EFBC6@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B23D7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52F3AF0D.3050306@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B253C@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:

o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
  reason to remember anything about it
o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
  "globally and eternally unique".

- Jouni



On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Steve,
> =20
> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync =
after OLR expiry.
> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember =
anything about it and the next overload report received could, =
conceivably have any value.=20
>=20
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve =
Donovan
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> A couple of things -=20
>=20
> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically =
over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing =
this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time =
stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent =
after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for =
each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better =
properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll =
over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is =
not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence =
number server after each reboot.
>=20
> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one =
way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence =
number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires =
there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload =
report received could, conceivably have any value.=20
>=20
> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base =
Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be =
globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial =
differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the =
overload report.
>=20
> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of =
NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded =
in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes =
a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended =
format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
> =20
> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
> The receiver would accept
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
> and then silently discards
> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
> with no way to come back to sync.
> =20
> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
> =20
> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and =
plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value =
and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve =
the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben =
Campbell
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
> To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number =
always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement =
that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is =
probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in =
itself, an interop requirement.
> =20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> =
<lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
> =20
> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", =
it is a case for a "MUST".
> We are not violating anything.
> =20
> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces =
to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the =
format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to =
meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an =
implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level =
requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
> =20
> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
> =20
> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we =
expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would =
be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then =
add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a =
timestamp is a good way to do this.
> =20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> =20
> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use =
case to mandate a specific semantic.
> =20
> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it =
is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  =
There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should =
be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
> =20
> Steve
> =20
> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
> I also agree.
> =20
> Regards,
> Nirav.
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
> =20
> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this =
sequence-number.
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>    =46rom the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP =
MUST
>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>    related or correlated.
> =20
>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
> =20
> =20
> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are =
out  of sync (for whatever reason).
> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit =
NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was =
created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time =
of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
> =20
> =20
> =
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recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Sat Feb  8 08:34:45 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics
Thread-Index: AQHPJFF6Ab6u61L6RkaLYcwLVhapC5qriYTA
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 16:34:40 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics
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Hi Ben,

I don't think that there is something wrong here.

The setting of M-bit is per application, and it is true for any AVP.

I'm not sure to understand your example. The use of the DOIC is defined per=
 application.
For a newly defined application:
- Either the node supports the new application and it will understand any A=
VP defined as AVP to understand;
- Either the node does not support new application and it will not receive =
messages for this application or it will be transparent to any unknown AVP =
(e.g. Relay).

Regards,

Lionel


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:11
=C0=A0: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: [Dime] [dime] #48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics

#48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics

 Multiple sections indicate that a new application that incorporates DOIC
 can set the M-Bit on DOIC sub-avps. I don't think this ever does the right
 thing.

 IIUC, If a node that otherwise supports DOIC encounters a DOIC avp that it
 doesn't understand, and has the M-Bit set, it will cause a failure of the
 application command. I don't think we want the lack of support of some
 DOIC feature or extension to ever cause an application-level failure.  I
 think we are looking for something that would just cause the OLR to be
 ignored.

--=20
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/48>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
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Thank you.


From lionel.morand@orange.com  Sat Feb  8 08:37:18 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be	ignored
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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 16:37:14 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be	ignored
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Hi Ben,

OK with this statement.
But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should apply=
 for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:05
=C0=A0: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should =
be ignored

#47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored

 Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are
 interpreted as 100."

 An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates
 incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe
 to assume we know what the sender really intended.

--=20
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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___________________________________________________________________________=
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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From lionel.morand@orange.com  Sat Feb  8 08:54:01 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior
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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 16:53:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior
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Hi Ben,

The case "equal" is discussed in the previous sentence.

Check the following:

   The received OC-Supported-Features AVP does not change the existing
   overload condition and/or traffic abatement algorithm settings if the
   OC-Sequence-Number AVP contains a value that is equal to the
   previously received/recorded one.  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP
   is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
   Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
   recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
   the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
   replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.

The first sentence implies that the received OLR is ignored.=20

And actually, there is something wrong in the last sentence. At the end,=20

   recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
   the sequence number is stale or replay (e.g. an intentional or unintenti=
onal
   replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.

The "either" in the first line should be removed.

Regards,

Lionel


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 22:49
=C0=A0: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: [Dime] [dime] #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior

#44: Incorrect sequence number behavior

 section 4.3 says that the receiver should discard an OLR with a sequence
 number less than the most recent. That should be less than or equal.
 Technically, re-applying the same OLR should make no difference, but it's
 never needed, and could be error prone if the sender screwed something up.

--=20
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  trivial      |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/44>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From lionel.morand@orange.com  Sat Feb  8 09:00:23 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #39: Definition of Diameter Routing
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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 17:00:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #39: Definition of Diameter Routing
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Hi Ben,

The "XXX" refers to Diameter application designers.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 21:45
=C0=A0: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #39: Definition of Diameter Routing

#39: Definition of Diameter Routing


Comment (by ben@nostrum.com):

 (Oops, sent to soon). The last sentence says "It is possible to enhance
 the routing decision with application-level knowledge..." The passive
 voice obscures the responsibility. What actor may do this? (I suggest
 recasting the sentence as "XXX may enhance..."

--=20
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |       Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |      Status:  new
 Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |     Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |  Resolution:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
 Keywords:               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/39#comment:1>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Sat Feb  8 09:02:21 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #40: Need defintions for Overload Report and Abatement Algorithm
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #40: Need defintions for Overload Report and Abatement Algorithm
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Hi Ben,

Ok with the principle but it would better to propose a text for discussion.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 21:51
=C0=A0: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: [Dime] [dime] #40: Need defintions for Overload Report and Abatem=
ent Algorithm

#40: Need defintions for Overload Report and Abatement Algorithm

 Both are mentioned in other definitions but not defined themselves.

--=20
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/40>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Sat Feb  8 09:02:55 2014
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview
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Hi Ben,

Any proposal?

Regards,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 21:55
=C0=A0: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview

#41: Need better overview

 The overview is short on explanation. We need a high level, non-normative
 "how it works" description of the mechanism, including roles,
 responsibilities, associations, and information flows. This doesn't need
 too much detail (e.g. message and AVP definitions belong elsewhere.)

 Some of the information in the endpoint architecture section would be
 better off here.

--=20
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/41>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:54 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> See inline
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:09 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 10:03 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Loinel,
>>=20
>> it seems that we can safely remove OC-Supported-Feature AVP from =
answer messages in the draft-ietf-dime-ovli (which does not define =
extensions to itself). This does not mean that a future extension cannot =
(re)-introduce it when needed. It also does not mean that reporting =
nodes are not allowed to include it in answer messages as long as answer =
messages have a *[AVP].
>=20
> Not so fast. Leaving OC-Supported-Feature AVP away from the=20
> answer is already supported by the -01. So there is nothing
> to fix in that part.
> <Ulrich> it seems you agree that=20
> a) reporting nodes that only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO are not required =
to send OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages (of course they may =
if there is the *[AVP])

As I said this is already in the draft, thus ok. We just need to
clarify the use of OC-Supported-Features, remove the contradicting
text and clarify that the absence of the OC-Supported-Features
equals to the OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO (currently it only states that for
the OC-Feature-Vector).

- JOuni


> b) reacting nodes that only support  OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely =
ignore OC-Supported-Features AVPs received in answer messages
> c) behavior of the reacting node that only supports OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO =
does not depend on presence/absence of OC-Supported-Features AVPs in =
received answer messages
> if that's agreed, why not say so clearly in the draft?
> (the clear way to say so is to remove this AVP from answers. </Ulrich>
>=20
>=20
> The thing that need to be fixed is the inconsistency on you
> pointed out which would make reacting node not to send any
> DOIC AVPs.
>=20
> - JOuni
>=20
>>=20
>> Best regards
>> Ulrich
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20=

>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 5:51 PM
>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>=20
>> Hi Ulrich,
>>=20
>> For the point 2 and 3, the difference between the "Should" and the =
"May" is quite subtle here and is for me only an implementation option.
>>=20
>> For 4 and 5, ok if the node only supports the default algo. In other =
words, only the OLR matters for nodes supporting only the default algo. =
The rest is purely for information and can be safely ignored.
>>=20
>> For 6, if the new feature consists in a new algo, it would mean =
defining a new dedicated OLR AVP. So nodes supporting only the default =
algo will ignore any unknown AVP if received.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 17:04
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : RE: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>=20
>> Dear Lionel,
>>=20
>> thank you for your response.
>>=20
>> If I correctly understand, the principles would be:
>> 1. Sending OC-Supported-Features in answer messages is syntactically =
optional.
>> 2. When the reacting node does only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO , the =
reporting node should not insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the =
answer message.
>> 3. When the reporting node does only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO, it =
should not insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the answer message.
>> 4. A reacting node that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely =
ignore OC-Supported-Features AVPs received in answer messages.
>> 5. A reacting node that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely =
ignor all extensions received in an OC-OLR.
>> 6. When a new feature is introduced, the spec introducing the new =
feature must define the details to ensure interoperability of nodes =
supporting the new feature with nodes that do not support the new =
feature (taking into account that nodes not supporting the new feature =
act according to the principles 1.-5.).
>>=20
>>=20
>> Best regards
>> Ulrich
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext =
lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 4:01 PM
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
>>=20
>> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to =
solve it is not the correct one.
>> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with =
several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with =
the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>>=20
>> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, =
it is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one =
given algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will =
advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector =
cannot be used to indicate the abatement to perform.
>>=20
>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>>=20
>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along =
with the OC-OLR AVP.
>>=20
>> Lionel=20
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>=20
>> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>=20
>> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism =
in
>> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP
>> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the =
reacting
>> DOIC endpoint.
>> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node =
can do
>> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to =
allow
>> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
>> messages.
>> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
>> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no =
other
>> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs =
from
>> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly =
indicates
>> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not =
receiving
>> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>>=20
>> a) There is no overload
>> b) DOIC is not supported
>>=20
>> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between =
these
>> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both =
cases.
>> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>>   If there is no single matching
>>   capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>>   DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>>   messages with this specific reacting node.
>>=20
>> This however is inconsistent.
>> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
>> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
>> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a =
different
>> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
>> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the =
role
>> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role =
since
>> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
>> Supported-Features AVPs.
>> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  =
draft-ietf-
>> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
>> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or =
even
>> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>>    Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
>> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
>> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>=20
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
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>>=20
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>>=20
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>>=20
>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
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>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>=20
>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the =
unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not =
overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm =
overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending =
host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>> What is wrong with letting the client
>> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
>> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
>> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>=20
> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>


Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case
except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?

If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying
the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.

- Jouni


> I am OK with Lionel's
> "wording" here.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext =
lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the =
routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present =
over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case =
except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>>=20
>> Lioenl
>>=20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56
>> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests =
targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies =
that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host =
specified.
>>=20
>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify =
the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>=20
>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host =
second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of =
realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the =
reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host =
that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it =
prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the =
whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by =
the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply =
always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in =
the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been =
received for this destination-host.
>>=20
>> Does it make sense?
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>> treatment of a given report type applies.
>> Proposal:
>>=20
>>    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>>       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its =
value
>>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received =
message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request =
matches the
>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of =
the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR =
AVP.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request =
matches the
>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of =
the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR =
AVP.
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20


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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics
Thread-Index: AQHPJFF9MyABzxUc/kmFOHAbJuqeZJqr80UAgAIeznA=
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 06:58:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics
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Agree with Lionel.

For existing application, the M-bit will never be set.
For new applications, which are defined after the DOIC, the M-bit could be =
set.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2014 10:05 PM
To: dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics

Hi Ben,

I don't think that there is something wrong here.

The setting of M-bit is per application, and it is true for any AVP.

I'm not sure to understand your example. The use of the DOIC is defined per=
 application.
For a newly defined application:
- Either the node supports the new application and it will understand any A=
VP defined as AVP to understand;
- Either the node does not support new application and it will not receive =
messages for this application or it will be transparent to any unknown AVP =
(e.g. Relay).

Regards,

Lionel


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:11 =C0=A0: draft-docdt-dime-ovli=
@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: [Dime] [dim=
e] #48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics

#48: Setting M-Bit gives wrong semantics

 Multiple sections indicate that a new application that incorporates DOIC  =
can set the M-Bit on DOIC sub-avps. I don't think this ever does the right =
 thing.

 IIUC, If a node that otherwise supports DOIC encounters a DOIC avp that it=
  doesn't understand, and has the M-Bit set, it will cause a failure of the=
  application command. I don't think we want the lack of support of some  D=
OIC feature or extension to ever cause an application-level failure.  I  th=
ink we are looking for something that would just cause the OLR to be  ignor=
ed.

--=20
-------------------------+----------------------------------------------
-------------------------+---
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+----------------------------------------------
-------------------------+---

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/48>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Feb 10 00:03:55 2014
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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
Thread-Index: AQHPIbybCAijuwdnOUWT6I7GO6C9KJqlMRIAgAANSACAAP8KgIADR6KAgAA/BwCAAGNpMA==
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:03:25 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Hi all

My own remarks

- my trend is that the reacting and reporting node exchange their capabilit=
ies so that each is aware of what the other supports. This also may allow t=
he reporting node to indicate the reacting node which capabilities it has s=
elected among  those proposed by the reacting  node. In 3GPP, there is a si=
milar mechanism  commonly used with supported features in the requests and =
in the answer and this has not rose issues.=20
=20
- Ulrich is proposing  an optimization  to avoid to send the OC-Supported-f=
eatures AVP in the answer, as currently we have only one algo (the default =
one).  I also assume that no ORL is sent in this answer (Reporting node bei=
ng not in an overloaded situation). So even if the reacting node does not k=
now immediately if the reporting node is supporting DOIC with default algo =
or not, the reacting node  will learn this later when the reporting node wi=
ll send its first  OC-OLR AVP which, with the current draft, is only used w=
ith the default algo. So this optimization is applicable. Nevertheless, as =
mentioned for 3GPP where a similar mechanism,  3GGP has not felt the requir=
ement to introduce such an optimization for some cases, so this optimizatio=
n may be not so a strong requirement.

- then for the future, I would rather think that if new algos or new featur=
es adding extensions to an algo, we will come back to the use of the OC Sup=
ported Features in requests and answers. I am not sure that we should alway=
s rely on new OLR AVPs for this as the existing OC-OLR AVP can be reused.=20

- so I am not against to have no OC-Supported feature in the answer, but I =
would also allow it to be present(so a MAY) in the answers, which is more f=
uture safe.  =20
 =20
- by the way, is the default algorithm mandatory? From the current draft as=
 the default algo is the only algo that a reacting node can advertise, so  =
the answer is currently yes. But, for future, I think we were in favor to h=
ave at least a common supported algorithm by any entity supporting DOIC for=
 interoperability reasons. I have not seen this written; I think it should =
be clarified in the draft.

Best regards

JJacques  =20


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 14:55
=C0=A0: ext Jouni Korhonen
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es

See inline

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:09 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s


On Feb 5, 2014, at 10:03 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wieh=
e@nsn.com> wrote:

> Hi Loinel,
>=20
> it seems that we can safely remove OC-Supported-Feature AVP from answer m=
essages in the draft-ietf-dime-ovli (which does not define extensions to it=
self). This does not mean that a future extension cannot (re)-introduce it =
when needed. It also does not mean that reporting nodes are not allowed to =
include it in answer messages as long as answer messages have a *[AVP].

Not so fast. Leaving OC-Supported-Feature AVP away from the=20
answer is already supported by the -01. So there is nothing
to fix in that part.
<Ulrich> it seems you agree that=20
a) reporting nodes that only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO are not required to s=
end OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages (of course they may if the=
re is the *[AVP])
b) reacting nodes that only support  OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely ignore OC-=
Supported-Features AVPs received in answer messages
c) behavior of the reacting node that only supports OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO does n=
ot depend on presence/absence of OC-Supported-Features AVPs in received ans=
wer messages
if that's agreed, why not say so clearly in the draft?
(the clear way to say so is to remove this AVP from answers. </Ulrich>


The thing that need to be fixed is the inconsistency on you
pointed out which would make reacting node not to send any
DOIC AVPs.

- JOuni

>=20
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 5:51 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> Hi Ulrich,
>=20
> For the point 2 and 3, the difference between the "Should" and the "May" =
is quite subtle here and is for me only an implementation option.
>=20
> For 4 and 5, ok if the node only supports the default algo. In other word=
s, only the OLR matters for nodes supporting only the default algo. The res=
t is purely for information and can be safely ignored.
>=20
> For 6, if the new feature consists in a new algo, it would mean defining =
a new dedicated OLR AVP. So nodes supporting only the default algo will ign=
ore any unknown AVP if received.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 17:04
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : RE: [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> Dear Lionel,
>=20
> thank you for your response.
>=20
> If I correctly understand, the principles would be:
> 1. Sending OC-Supported-Features in answer messages is syntactically opti=
onal.
> 2. When the reacting node does only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO , the report=
ing node should not insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the answer messa=
ge.
> 3. When the reporting node does only support OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO, it should =
not insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the answer message.
> 4. A reacting node that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely ignore =
OC-Supported-Features AVPs received in answer messages.
> 5. A reacting node that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO can safely ignor a=
ll extensions received in an OC-OLR.
> 6. When a new feature is introduced, the spec introducing the new feature=
 must define the details to ensure interoperability of nodes supporting the=
 new feature with nodes that do not support the new feature (taking into ac=
count that nodes not supporting the new feature act according to the princi=
ples 1.-5.).
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@=
orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 4:01 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messa=
ges
>=20
> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to solv=
e it is not the correct one.
> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with seve=
ral algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-Fe=
ature-Vector AVP.
>=20
> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it is=
 not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo w=
hen more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for 2=
 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the =
abatement to perform.
>=20
> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported =
algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP =
for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be cre=
ated when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explici=
t.
>=20
> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with=
 the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> Lionel=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in
> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reactin=
g
> DOIC endpoint.
> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can d=
o
> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
> messages.
> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other
> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receivin=
g
> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>=20
> a) There is no overload
> b) DOIC is not supported
>=20
> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these
> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>    If there is no single matching
>    capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>    DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>    messages with this specific reacting node.
>=20
> This however is inconsistent.
> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a differen=
t
> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the rol=
e
> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since
> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
> Supported-Features AVPs.
> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-ietf=
-
> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>=20
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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Hi all

I agree to enhance the wording so by starting  from the new Lionel's wordin=
g.

My comment is that we have  to clearly distinguish the "validity duration" =
given  by the OC-Validity-Duration AVP (eg 10 s) from the "validity time" (=
absolute value) at the end of which  the received OLR is no more applicable=
.
- If the reacting node receives a new sequence number at T1 and a validity =
duration of 10s, this will determine a validity time eg of T1+ 10s where th=
e received OLR is applicable.
- If later at T2, it receives another OLR with the Same sequence number,  t=
he validity time remains unchanged at  T1+10s (as stated in Lionel's propos=
al), this allows to ignore the OLRs with the same sequence number.
- If at T3, the reacting node receives another OLR with a new  sequence num=
ber and with the same value, 10 s, (or a new value, eg 15s)  for validity d=
uration,  the validity time becomes  T3+10s (or T3+15s). So we can have sit=
uations where the sequence number is changed but the other content of OC-OL=
R AVP (reduction%, validity duration) itself has not changed: the effect is=
 only to shift the validity time in the reacting node.
Do you share  all this understanding?=20

So in the description, to be careful between validity duration and validity=
 time that  may confuse.

Best regards

JJacques=20


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:53
=C0=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP


OK by me.

- JOuni

On Feb 7, 2014, at 12:19 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> I'm fine with the proposed clarification.
> My point is that some parts belong to the handling of the OLR itself and =
some other to the definition of the Validity duration.
>=20
> Here is a proposal for clarification. Let me know if it covers your conce=
rn.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> *******************
>=20
> 4.3. OC-OLR AVP
>=20
> [skip]
>=20
>   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
>   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
>   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
>   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint to
>   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
>   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
>   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
>   is less than previously received one.
>=20
> [New]
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP indicates the validity time of the overloa=
d
>   report associated with a specific sequence number, measured after recep=
tion
>   of the OC-OLR AVP. The validity time MUST NOT be updated after receptio=
n=20
>   of subsequent OC-OLR AVPs with the same sequence number. The default va=
lue
>   for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e., 5 seconds).  When th=
e=20
>   OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the OC-OLR AVP, the default =
value
>   applies.
>=20
> [Skip]
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> OLD:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>=20
> NEW:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and indicates in seconds the validity time of the overload report.
>   The number of seconds is measured after reception of the first=20
>   OC-OLR AVP with a given value of OC-Sequence-Number AVP.=20
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies. OC-Validity-Duration AVP values =
0
>   (i.e., 0 second) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   When invalid values are used, the default value for the OC-Validity-Dur=
ation
>   AVP applies.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 08:38 =C0 : dime@ietf.org=
=20
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hello Lionel, all,
>=20
> I would like to clarify what  "new and fresh", or even only "new" OC-OLR =
AVP mean in the text.
> It should be understood that it does not refer to the new (latest) receiv=
ed AVP, but just the one that contains (potentially) new values, what only =
happens for a new Sequence Number. In that line is the proposed text I prov=
ided.
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 8:33
> To: dime@ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the de=
finition and the use of the AVP.
>=20
> And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how to p=
opulate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange
>=20
> Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :
>=20
>=20
> Thanks Lionel,
> The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the Validity-Duratio=
n should include a new value.
>=20
> Now:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,
>=20
> Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.
>=20
> The current text in the draft says:
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
>   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
>   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
>   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.
>=20
>   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
>   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
>   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
>   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
>   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
>   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
>   reporting node.
>=20
> I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should remain=
 independent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
> The sequence number does not change the value of the OC-Validity-Duration=
 AVP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or not. And if it is, a n=
ew duration will be there (either implicit or explicit with the OC-Validity=
-Duration AVP).
>=20
> So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should be i=
n the handling of the OLR.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
> Envoy=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re:=20
> [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02 =
version of the draft unless I hear objections soon.
>=20
> Steve
> On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when=
  the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.
>=20
> Now:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
>    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites o=
u copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuill=
ez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. =
Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci=
.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, us=
ed or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites o=
u copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuill=
ez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. =
Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci=
.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, us=
ed or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,=20
> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20
> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alterat=
ion, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be d=
istributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
Thread-Index: AQHPIb778GZL0FnWy0+sBFi5Rl7mNpqmEXfQgAED7ACAAAkVAP//p7bggABqqgCAASHxgP//nLwwgAAFFKCAAHhxgP//7KfwADO95YAAiAa9cA==
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 09:05:15 +0000
Message-ID: <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68B15@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com>
References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <25535_1391528227_52F10923_25535_243_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4771BD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A2A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2153@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52F24ACE.6080501@usdonovans.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F25A38.2030408@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B22FB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D64E69@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <29031_1391678397_52F353BD_29031_478_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48CA45@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B233F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D65226@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B24BA@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 09:11:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Hello Lionel, all,

Proposal is fine for me.
Thanks
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 11:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi Maria Cruz,

I'm fine with the proposed clarification.
My point is that some parts belong to the handling of the OLR itself and so=
me other to the definition of the Validity duration.

Here is a proposal for clarification. Let me know if it covers your concern=
.

Regards,

Lionel

*******************

4.3. OC-OLR AVP

[skip]

   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint to
   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
   is less than previously received one.

[New]

   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP indicates the validity time of the overload
   report associated with a specific sequence number, measured after recept=
ion
   of the OC-OLR AVP. The validity time MUST NOT be updated after reception=
=20
   of subsequent OC-OLR AVPs with the same sequence number. The default val=
ue
   for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e., 5 seconds).  When the=
=20
   OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the OC-OLR AVP, the default v=
alue
   applies.

[Skip]

4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP

OLD:
   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
   Duration AVP were not present.


NEW:
   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and indicates in seconds the validity time of the overload report.
   The number of seconds is measured after reception of the first=20
   OC-OLR AVP with a given value of OC-Sequence-Number AVP.=20
   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is 5 (i.e.,
   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies. OC-Validity-Duration AVP values 0
   (i.e., 0 second) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
   When invalid values are used, the default value for the OC-Validity-Dura=
tion
   AVP applies.




-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 08:38 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hello Lionel, all,

I would like to clarify what  "new and fresh", or even only "new" OC-OLR AV=
P mean in the text.
It should be understood that it does not refer to the new (latest) received=
 AVP, but just the one that contains (potentially) new values, what only ha=
ppens for a new Sequence Number. In that line is the proposed text I provid=
ed.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 8:33
To: dime@ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi,

My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the defi=
nition and the use of the AVP.

And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how to pop=
ulate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.

Regards,

Lionel

Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange

Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :


Thanks Lionel,
The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the Validity-Duration =
should include a new value.

Now:
   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.


Best regards
/MCruz


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi Maria Cruz,

Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,

Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.

The current text in the draft says:

4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP


   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
   Duration AVP were not present.

   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.

   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
   reporting node.

I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should remain i=
ndependent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
The sequence number does not change the value of the OC-Validity-Duration A=
VP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or not. And if it is, a new=
 duration will be there (either implicit or explicit with the OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP).

So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should be in =
the handling of the OLR.

Regards,

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan Envoy=
=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [=
dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02 ve=
rsion of the draft unless I hear objections soon.

Steve
On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
#36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

 In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when =
 the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.

 Now:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).

 Proposal:
    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.



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From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Mon Feb 10 01:32:54 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Hello Jean-Jacques, et all,

I share your interpretation.
But, do you find this is still misleading in proposed text?

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 9:59
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi all

I agree to enhance the wording so by starting  from the new Lionel's wordin=
g.

My comment is that we have  to clearly distinguish the "validity duration" =
given  by the OC-Validity-Duration AVP (eg 10 s) from the "validity time" (=
absolute value) at the end of which  the received OLR is no more applicable=
.
- If the reacting node receives a new sequence number at T1 and a validity =
duration of 10s, this will determine a validity time eg of T1+ 10s where th=
e received OLR is applicable.
- If later at T2, it receives another OLR with the Same sequence number,  t=
he validity time remains unchanged at  T1+10s (as stated in Lionel's propos=
al), this allows to ignore the OLRs with the same sequence number.
- If at T3, the reacting node receives another OLR with a new  sequence num=
ber and with the same value, 10 s, (or a new value, eg 15s)  for validity d=
uration,  the validity time becomes  T3+10s (or T3+15s). So we can have sit=
uations where the sequence number is changed but the other content of OC-OL=
R AVP (reduction%, validity duration) itself has not changed: the effect is=
 only to shift the validity time in the reacting node.
Do you share  all this understanding?=20

So in the description, to be careful between validity duration and validity=
 time that  may confuse.

Best regards

JJacques=20


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen Env=
oy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:53 =C0=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com =
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration =
AVP


OK by me.

- JOuni

On Feb 7, 2014, at 12:19 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> I'm fine with the proposed clarification.
> My point is that some parts belong to the handling of the OLR itself and =
some other to the definition of the Validity duration.
>=20
> Here is a proposal for clarification. Let me know if it covers your conce=
rn.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> *******************
>=20
> 4.3. OC-OLR AVP
>=20
> [skip]
>=20
>   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
>   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
>   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
>   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint to
>   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
>   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
>   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
>   is less than previously received one.
>=20
> [New]
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP indicates the validity time of the overloa=
d
>   report associated with a specific sequence number, measured after recep=
tion
>   of the OC-OLR AVP. The validity time MUST NOT be updated after receptio=
n=20
>   of subsequent OC-OLR AVPs with the same sequence number. The default va=
lue
>   for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e., 5 seconds).  When th=
e=20
>   OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the OC-OLR AVP, the default =
value
>   applies.
>=20
> [Skip]
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> OLD:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>=20
> NEW:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and indicates in seconds the validity time of the overload report.
>   The number of seconds is measured after reception of the first=20
>   OC-OLR AVP with a given value of OC-Sequence-Number AVP.=20
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies. OC-Validity-Duration AVP values =
0
>   (i.e., 0 second) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   When invalid values are used, the default value for the OC-Validity-Dur=
ation
>   AVP applies.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 08:38 =C0 : dime@ietf.org=
=20
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hello Lionel, all,
>=20
> I would like to clarify what  "new and fresh", or even only "new" OC-OLR =
AVP mean in the text.
> It should be understood that it does not refer to the new (latest) receiv=
ed AVP, but just the one that contains (potentially) new values, what only =
happens for a new Sequence Number. In that line is the proposed text I prov=
ided.
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 8:33
> To: dime@ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the de=
finition and the use of the AVP.
>=20
> And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how to p=
opulate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange
>=20
> Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :
>=20
>=20
> Thanks Lionel,
> The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the Validity-Duratio=
n should include a new value.
>=20
> Now:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,
>=20
> Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.
>=20
> The current text in the draft says:
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
>   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
>   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
>   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.
>=20
>   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
>   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
>   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
>   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
>   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
>   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
>   reporting node.
>=20
> I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should remain=
 independent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
> The sequence number does not change the value of the OC-Validity-Duration=
 AVP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or not. And if it is, a n=
ew duration will be there (either implicit or explicit with the OC-Validity=
-Duration AVP).
>=20
> So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should be i=
n the handling of the OLR.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
> Envoy=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re:
> [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02 =
version of the draft unless I hear objections soon.
>=20
> Steve
> On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when=
  the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.
>=20
> Now:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
>    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
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>=20
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entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites o=
u copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuill=
ez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. =
Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci=
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>=20
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nformation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, us=
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lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
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>=20
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>=20
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> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites o=
u copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuill=
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Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci=
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>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, us=
ed or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
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>=20
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
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>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,=20
> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20
> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alterat=
ion, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be d=
istributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
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>=20
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 09:41:37 +0000
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References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <25535_1391528227_52F10923_25535_243_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4771BD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A2A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2153@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52F24ACE.6080501@usdonovans.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F25A38.2030408@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B22FB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D64E69@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <29031_1391678397_52F353BD_29031_478_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48CA45@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B233F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D65226@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B24BA@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772389@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68B44@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097726C5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Hi JJ,

Just on the definition of "time".... It could be a period/moment and not on=
ly a absolute time.
Validity time can be used for both and it is why it is important each time =
to clarify its meaning.

For the rest, I think that the proposed text is clear enough to avoid ambig=
uity.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 10:36
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hello Jean-Jacques, et all,

I share your interpretation.
But, do you find this is still misleading in proposed text?

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 9:59
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi all

I agree to enhance the wording so by starting  from the new Lionel's wordin=
g.

My comment is that we have  to clearly distinguish the "validity duration" =
given  by the OC-Validity-Duration AVP (eg 10 s) from the "validity time" (=
absolute value) at the end of which  the received OLR is no more applicable.
- If the reacting node receives a new sequence number at T1 and a validity =
duration of 10s, this will determine a validity time eg of T1+ 10s where th=
e received OLR is applicable.
- If later at T2, it receives another OLR with the Same sequence number,  t=
he validity time remains unchanged at  T1+10s (as stated in Lionel's propos=
al), this allows to ignore the OLRs with the same sequence number.
- If at T3, the reacting node receives another OLR with a new  sequence num=
ber and with the same value, 10 s, (or a new value, eg 15s)  for validity d=
uration,  the validity time becomes  T3+10s (or T3+15s). So we can have sit=
uations where the sequence number is changed but the other content of OC-OL=
R AVP (reduction%, validity duration) itself has not changed: the effect is=
 only to shift the validity time in the reacting node.
Do you share  all this understanding?=20

So in the description, to be careful between validity duration and validity=
 time that  may confuse.

Best regards

JJacques=20


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen Env=
oy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:53 =C0=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com =
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration =
AVP


OK by me.

- JOuni

On Feb 7, 2014, at 12:19 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> I'm fine with the proposed clarification.
> My point is that some parts belong to the handling of the OLR itself and =
some other to the definition of the Validity duration.
>=20
> Here is a proposal for clarification. Let me know if it covers your conce=
rn.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> *******************
>=20
> 4.3. OC-OLR AVP
>=20
> [skip]
>=20
>   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
>   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
>   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
>   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint to
>   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
>   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
>   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
>   is less than previously received one.
>=20
> [New]
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP indicates the validity time of the overload
>   report associated with a specific sequence number, measured after recep=
tion
>   of the OC-OLR AVP. The validity time MUST NOT be updated after receptio=
n=20
>   of subsequent OC-OLR AVPs with the same sequence number. The default va=
lue
>   for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e., 5 seconds).  When th=
e=20
>   OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the OC-OLR AVP, the default =
value
>   applies.
>=20
> [Skip]
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> OLD:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>=20
> NEW:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and indicates in seconds the validity time of the overload report.
>   The number of seconds is measured after reception of the first=20
>   OC-OLR AVP with a given value of OC-Sequence-Number AVP.=20
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies. OC-Validity-Duration AVP values 0
>   (i.e., 0 second) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   When invalid values are used, the default value for the OC-Validity-Dur=
ation
>   AVP applies.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 08:38 =C0 : dime@ietf.org=
=20
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hello Lionel, all,
>=20
> I would like to clarify what  "new and fresh", or even only "new" OC-OLR =
AVP mean in the text.
> It should be understood that it does not refer to the new (latest) receiv=
ed AVP, but just the one that contains (potentially) new values, what only =
happens for a new Sequence Number. In that line is the proposed text I prov=
ided.
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 8:33
> To: dime@ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the de=
finition and the use of the AVP.
>=20
> And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how to p=
opulate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange
>=20
> Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :
>=20
>=20
> Thanks Lionel,
> The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the Validity-Duratio=
n should include a new value.
>=20
> Now:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,
>=20
> Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.
>=20
> The current text in the draft says:
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
>   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
>   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
>   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.
>=20
>   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
>   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
>   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
>   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
>   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
>   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
>   reporting node.
>=20
> I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should remain=
 independent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
> The sequence number does not change the value of the OC-Validity-Duration=
 AVP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or not. And if it is, a n=
ew duration will be there (either implicit or explicit with the OC-Validity=
-Duration AVP).
>=20
> So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should be i=
n the handling of the OLR.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
> Envoy=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re:
> [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02 =
version of the draft unless I hear objections soon.
>=20
> Steve
> On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when=
  the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.
>=20
> Now:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
>    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
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u copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuill=
ez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. =
Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, us=
ed or copied without authorisation.
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>=20
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>=20
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> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites o=
u copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuill=
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Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, us=
ed or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
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>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
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>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,=20
> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20
> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alterat=
ion, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be d=
istributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
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>=20
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___________________________________________________________________________=
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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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Thank you.


From jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Feb 10 01:46:13 2014
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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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References: <075.376f1b94eeb48f20f90d9724b0e70c0e@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F3ABA5.30504@usdonovans.com> <6764_1391710024_52F3CF48_6764_4871_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48EEEE@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772061@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <21997_1391758373_52F48C25_21997_132_1_c9aldckjsu8oeuya3nuk8i3w.1391758370310@email.android.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097720CF@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <18811_1391768364_52F4B32C_18811_19518_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49093A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <41CF16CB-0761-4037-8426-168546CFF792@gmail.com> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D202663B14@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097726DC@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Hi MCruz

I have not yet thought to some wording enhancement, I wanted first to check=
 is we have the same understanding.

I have noted in the proposal:
"The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32 and ind=
icates in seconds the validity time of the overload report"
So I would prefer to use "validity duration", as the OC-Validity-Duration A=
VP indicates a duration, not a time. But elsewhere, what is important is th=
e update of the validity time  when a new sequence number.=20
Best regards

JJacques =20


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 10:36
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hello Jean-Jacques, et all,

I share your interpretation.
But, do you find this is still misleading in proposed text?

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 9:59
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi all

I agree to enhance the wording so by starting  from the new Lionel's wordin=
g.

My comment is that we have  to clearly distinguish the "validity duration" =
given  by the OC-Validity-Duration AVP (eg 10 s) from the "validity time" (=
absolute value) at the end of which  the received OLR is no more applicable=
.
- If the reacting node receives a new sequence number at T1 and a validity =
duration of 10s, this will determine a validity time eg of T1+ 10s where th=
e received OLR is applicable.
- If later at T2, it receives another OLR with the Same sequence number,  t=
he validity time remains unchanged at  T1+10s (as stated in Lionel's propos=
al), this allows to ignore the OLRs with the same sequence number.
- If at T3, the reacting node receives another OLR with a new  sequence num=
ber and with the same value, 10 s, (or a new value, eg 15s)  for validity d=
uration,  the validity time becomes  T3+10s (or T3+15s). So we can have sit=
uations where the sequence number is changed but the other content of OC-OL=
R AVP (reduction%, validity duration) itself has not changed: the effect is=
 only to shift the validity time in the reacting node.
Do you share  all this understanding?=20

So in the description, to be careful between validity duration and validity=
 time that  may confuse.

Best regards

JJacques=20


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen Env=
oy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:53 =C0=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com =
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration =
AVP


OK by me.

- JOuni

On Feb 7, 2014, at 12:19 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> I'm fine with the proposed clarification.
> My point is that some parts belong to the handling of the OLR itself and =
some other to the definition of the Validity duration.
>=20
> Here is a proposal for clarification. Let me know if it covers your conce=
rn.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> *******************
>=20
> 4.3. OC-OLR AVP
>=20
> [skip]
>=20
>   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
>   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
>   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
>   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint to
>   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
>   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
>   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
>   is less than previously received one.
>=20
> [New]
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP indicates the validity time of the overloa=
d
>   report associated with a specific sequence number, measured after recep=
tion
>   of the OC-OLR AVP. The validity time MUST NOT be updated after receptio=
n=20
>   of subsequent OC-OLR AVPs with the same sequence number. The default va=
lue
>   for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e., 5 seconds).  When th=
e=20
>   OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the OC-OLR AVP, the default =
value
>   applies.
>=20
> [Skip]
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> OLD:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>=20
> NEW:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and indicates in seconds the validity time of the overload report.
>   The number of seconds is measured after reception of the first=20
>   OC-OLR AVP with a given value of OC-Sequence-Number AVP.=20
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies. OC-Validity-Duration AVP values =
0
>   (i.e., 0 second) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   When invalid values are used, the default value for the OC-Validity-Dur=
ation
>   AVP applies.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 08:38 =C0 : dime@ietf.org=
=20
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hello Lionel, all,
>=20
> I would like to clarify what  "new and fresh", or even only "new" OC-OLR =
AVP mean in the text.
> It should be understood that it does not refer to the new (latest) receiv=
ed AVP, but just the one that contains (potentially) new values, what only =
happens for a new Sequence Number. In that line is the proposed text I prov=
ided.
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 8:33
> To: dime@ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the de=
finition and the use of the AVP.
>=20
> And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how to p=
opulate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange
>=20
> Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :
>=20
>=20
> Thanks Lionel,
> The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the Validity-Duratio=
n should include a new value.
>=20
> Now:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,
>=20
> Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.
>=20
> The current text in the draft says:
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
>   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
>   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
>   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.
>=20
>   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
>   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
>   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
>   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
>   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
>   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
>   reporting node.
>=20
> I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should remain=
 independent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
> The sequence number does not change the value of the OC-Validity-Duration=
 AVP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or not. And if it is, a n=
ew duration will be there (either implicit or explicit with the OC-Validity=
-Duration AVP).
>=20
> So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should be i=
n the handling of the OLR.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
> Envoy=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re:
> [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02 =
version of the draft unless I hear objections soon.
>=20
> Steve
> On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when=
  the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.
>=20
> Now:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
>    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
>=20
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>=20
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>=20
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> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
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u copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuill=
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toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci=
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>=20
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n modified, changed or falsified.
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>=20
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>=20
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>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
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> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20
> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alterat=
ion, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be d=
istributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
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From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Mon Feb 10 01:53:04 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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To: dime@ietf.org
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Cc: ben@nostrum.com, draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
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Good point. I would clarify that a server farm could mean both: one with
a single identity and one with multiple identities. The selection is=20
implementation and deployment specific.

- Jouni


On Feb 7, 2014, at 10:37 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:

> #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
>=20
> A "server farm" is defined as "A set of Diameter servers that can =
handle
> any request for a given set of Diameter applications.". This is not
> strictly true. For example, if a request includes a Destination-Server
> AVP, then then in general only that particular server in the farm can
> handle the request.
>=20
> I assume that we don't mean to limit the server farm concept to =
situations
> where the entire farm is known by a single Diameter-Identity, do we?
>=20
> --=20
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
> Severity:  Active WG    |
>  Document               |
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/38>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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Hello Ulrich et all,

As far as I can follow your comments on diagram, I tend to agree with your =
proposal, but I cannot fully follow this, since diagram is not properly rec=
eived.
Is it possible to provide diagram in another format that is not modified by=
 each one email configuration? I think this is very important for discussio=
n and agreement
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: martes, 04 de febrero de 2014 14:44
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange

Steve,

please find comments inline.

Regards
Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 12:55 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange

All,

I believe that the current DOIC Endpoint behavior definition is not suffici=
ently defined, especially for agents.
<Ulrich> I agree. </Ulrich>

There was also a change introduced in the -01 version of the draft that imp=
lies that there can be a DOIC association that goes through a DOIC enabled =
agent.=A0 This was not=A0 how I understood endpoints.
<Ulrich> same with me </Ulrich>=A0 The original diagrams showed a DOIC agen=
t as terminating an endpoint that came to it.=A0=A0=A0 I suspect there were=
 different assumptions that lead to clearly different interpretations.=A0=20

I propose that we return to the original diagrams and add the wording below=
 on how DOC agents behave.=A0 One way to look at this is that DOC agents ac=
t as back-to-back DOC endpoints.=A0 I intentionally don't say back-to-back =
Diameter endpoints because this does not impact anything except the handlin=
g of DOIC related AVPs.

Note that I don't believe this requires any changes to Diameter clients or =
servers.=A0 I also don't believe this requires any changes to the contents =
of the DOIC related AVPs but there is an open question as to whether there =
is a need to indicate when a OC-Supported-Features AVP is generated or modi=
fied by an agent.

I propose to add the following section to the section on capabilities annou=
ncement.=A0 I'll send a separate email proposing text to section 5.5 on how=
 DOC agents are to behave.=20

Regards,

Steve

-----

5.3.1 DOC Agent handling of DOIC capability exchange.

A DOC agent is defined as a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension=
.
<Ulrich> A Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension is not necessari=
ly taking the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint.
It only takes the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint when receiving a request=
 that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.
Similarily a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extensions is not necess=
arily taking the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint.
It only takes the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint when receiving a realm =
type request (not containing a destination host) that contains an OC-Suppor=
ted-Features AVP while it is configured to act as a reporting DOIC endpoint=
 for that realm. </Ulrich>

A DOC node is defined as a Diameter client, Diameter server or Diameter age=
nt that supports the DOIC extension <Ulrich> and decided to take the role o=
f a reacting DOIC endpoint and/or reporting DOIC endpoint </Ulrich>.

An downstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between the DO=
IC supporting Diameter entity that sends a Diameter request message to a DO=
C agent and the DOC agent.

A upstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between a DOC age=
nt and the Diameter entity to which the DOC agent sends the Diameter reques=
t message.=A0 The following illustrated the upstream and downstream concept=
s.

=A0 DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream DOIC a=
ssociation--> DOC=A0 node
=A0 Direction of request message for a transaction ----->
=A0 Direction of answer message for a transaction <----- <Ulrich> this depe=
nds on the point of view: one node's downstream DOIC association is another=
 node's upstream DOIC association. </Ulrich> <Ulrich> The general case is:

+---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                 =
         +--------+                +--------+
| client  |      | A1      |     | A2     |     | A3     |                 =
         | A4     |                | server |
| no DOIC |      | no DOIC |     | DOIC   |     | DOIC   |                 =
         | DOIC   |                | DOIC   |
| support |      | support |     | support|     | support|                 =
         | support|                | support|=20
+---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                 =
         +--------+                +--------+
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |<---DOIC association 1---------------=
---------->|<-------DOIC association 2-->|
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |<-----------------DOIC association 3-=
---------------------------------------->|
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |----1.xxR------->|---2.xxR----->|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |---3.xxR----->|----4.xxR-------------=
---------->|                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |--------5.xxR--------------->|=20
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |<-------6.xxA----------------|
    |                 |              |<--8.xxA------|<---7.xxA-------------=
-----------|                             |
    |<---10.xxA-------|<--9.xxA------|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |----11.xxR------>|---12.xxR---->|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |---13.xxR---->|-----14.xxR-----------=
---------->|-------15.xxR--------------->|
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |<---18.xxA----|<----17.xxA-----------=
-----------|<-----16.xxA-----------------|
    |<---20.xxA-------|<---19.xxA----|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
DOIC association 1 is for realm type requests; DOIC association 2 is for re=
quest for which A4 selects the server DOIC association 3 is for host type r=
equests

1. the client that does not support DOIC sends 1.xxR (realm type request no=
t containing destination host) to the next hop; 1.xxR does not contain an O=
C-Supported-Features AVP 2. the agent A1 that does not support DOIC forward=
s the request to the next hop; 2.xxR still dos not contain an OC-Supported-=
Feature AVP.
3. the agent A2 that supports DOIC decides to take the role of a reacting e=
ndpoint; it inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP into 3.xxR indicating supp=
ort of features 1 and 2 (in this example).
4. agent A3, although it supports DOIC, does not take the role of a reactin=
g endpoint (because 3.xxR contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP); it also d=
oes not take the role of a reporting endpoint since it is not configured to=
 act as reporting endpoint for the destination realm received in 3.xxR; 4.x=
xR (unmodified) is sent to the next hop.
5. agent A4 is configured to take the role of the reporting endpoint for th=
e realm. It therefore removes the OC-Supported-Features AVP reveived in 4.x=
xR and inserts its own supported features (in this example features 1 and 3=
) in 5.xxR. A4 also selects the server to which 5.xxR is sent.
6. the server (that supports DOIC e.g. features 1 and 3) returns 6.xxA incl=
uding an OLR1 (host type) requesting a feature 3 specific traffic reduction=
 (e.g. window size 20).=20
7. A4 calculates the overall realm overload level, removes the received OLR=
1 and adds its own calculated realm type OLR2 (e.g. a feature 1 specific tr=
affic reduction of 50%-loss) to 7.xxA. A4 stores OLR1 for later use.
8. A3 not taking any DOIC role forwards the answer unmodified.
9. agent A2 may remove the reveived OLR2 when sending 9.xxA. A2 stores OLR2=
 for later use.
10. A1 not supporting DOIC is transparent.
11. client sends a new request 11.xxR (containing destination host as learn=
d from 10.xxA; no OC-Supported-Features AVP included.
12. A1 is transparent.
13. A2 decides to take the role of the reacting endpoint and includes again=
 its supported features 1 and 2 in OC-Supported-Features AVO sent within 13=
.xxR.
14. A3 is transparent
15. A4 is transparent for host type requests that contain an OC-Supported-F=
eatures AVP.
16. server returns 16.xxA including a host type OLR3 requesting a feature 1=
 specific traffic reduction of e.g. 30%-loss.
17. A4 is transparent
18. A3 is transparent
19. A2 stores OLR3 for later use and may remove OLR3 when sending 19.xxA.
20. client receives 20.xxA.
</Ulrich>

Four scenarios must be supported:

=A0 - Scenario 1 - There is both an upstream and downstream DOIC associatio=
n.
<Ulrich> for example see A4 in the figure above </Ulrich>
=A0 - Scenario 2 - There is no upstream DOIC association <Ulrich> do you me=
an "There is a downstream DOIC association but no upstream DOIC association=
"? Not covered in the figure above. </Ulrich>
=A0 - Scenario 3 - There is no downstream DOIC association <Ulrich> do you =
mean "There is an upstream DOIC association but no downstream DOIC associat=
ion"? for example see A2 in the figure above </Ulrich>
=A0 - Scenario 4 - No DOIC association in either direction <Ulrich> for exa=
mple see A3 in the figure above </Ulrich>

Scenario 1 - Both upstream and downstream DOIC associations

Request message handling:

A DOC agent that receives a request that contains the OC-Supported-Features=
 AVP must act as an endpoint for the downstream DOIC association.
<Ulrich> NO! see A3 receiving 3.xxR or 13.xxR (this may not be scenario 1, =
but how does the agent know which scenario applies?)</Ulrich>

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the request message then the agent must =
include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.=A0 The content=
s of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, all of the c=
ontent included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.=A0 If the agent =
does not support any additional features then the sent OC-Supported-Feature=
s AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.
<Ulrich>There cannot be more than one OC-Supported-Features AVPs in one req=
uest. An agent that inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP must remove the re=
ceived OC-Supported-Features AVP (see A4 when sending 5.xxR). The inserted =
OC-Supported Features AVP shall indicate the features the inserting node su=
pports, not more, not less</Ulrich>

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must modify the OC-Supported-Featu=
res AVP to indicate support for those features.=A0 The modified OC-Supporte=
d-Features AVP must be included in the relayed request message.

=A0 Note: any DOIC extension must define the changes needed to the OC-Featu=
re-Vector AVP and any additional AVPs that need to be added to the OC-Suppo=
rted-Features AVP as part of the capabilities advertisement for that featur=
e.

Question: Should there be an indication that the contents of the OC-Support=
ed-Features AVP was changed?
<Ulrich> no. for what reason? </Ulrich>

Question: Will this work when end-to-end security is introduced?=A0 Would a=
dding a separate OC-Supported-Features AVP be better, especially when end-t=
o-end security is considered?
<Ulrich> what is the issue? </Ulrich>

Answer message handling:

When an agent receives the=A0 answer message that corresponds to the above =
request message <Ulrich> i.e. the request message into which the agent has =
inserted its OC-Supported-Features AVP </Ulrich> , the agent must act as th=
e DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC association.=A0=20

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the answer message then the agent must i=
nclude an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.
<Ulrich> OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages is an open issue </Ul=
rich>
=A0 The contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimu=
m, all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.=
=A0 If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent OC-=
Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP.

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent should modify the OC-Supported-Fea=
tures AVP to indicate support for those features.=A0 The modified OC-Suppor=
ted Features AVP must be included in the relayed answer message.

Scenario 2 - No downstream DOIC association with an upstream association <U=
lrich> wasn't that scenario 3? </Ulrich>

In this case a request is received that does not contain an OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP.

Request message handling:

If a DOC agent receives a request that does NOT contain an OC-Supported-Fea=
tures AVP then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflect=
ing the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.=A0 The new OC-Supported-F=
eatures AVP must be included in the relayed/proxied request message.

The agent will then become the reacting DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC=
 association that results from the transaction.=A0=20

Note: Section x.x.x defines agent behavior when it is the reacting node for=
 a DOIC association.

Answer message handling

In this case the answer message will contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.=
=A0 The DOC agent must store the advertised capabilities for use when the D=
OC agent reacts to an overload report from the upstream Diameter node.

The DOC agent should remove the OC-Supported-Features AVP from the answer m=
essage before relaying/proxying the answer message.=A0=20

Scenario 3 - Downstream DOC association with no upstream DOIC association <=
Ulrich> wasn't this scenario 2? </Ulrich>

In this case a OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the request from th=
e downstream Diameter entity but no OC-Supported-Features AVP is received i=
n the answer message received from the upstream Diameter entity.=A0 In this=
 case the agent must act as the reporting DOIC endpoint for the downstream =
DOIC association.
<Ulrich> this is totally new to me. Where does this come from? If a server =
does not support DOIC it cannot request load reduction from a downstream ag=
ent. The downstream agent (even if it would detect the DOIC-non-support of =
the server) cannot request load reduction from further downstream nodes on =
behalf of the server </Ulrich>

Request message handling:

Request message handling is the same as for scenario 1.

Answer message handling:

If a DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Suppo=
rted-Features AVP for a transaction that includes an upstream DOC associati=
on then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the=
 DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.=A0 The generation of this OC-Sup=
ported-Features AVP must also follow the rules specified in section 5.3.2.=
=A0 The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed/proxi=
ed the answer message.

Scenario 4 - No upstream association and no downstream association

Request message handling:

The request message handling in this case is the same as scenario 2.

Answer message handling:

If the DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Sup=
ported-Features AVP for a transaction that does not include a downstream DO=
C association then the agent must NOT generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP=
.=A0 The DOC Agent must relay/proxy the answer message with no DOIC related=
 change.

<Ulrich> the open issue seems to be: How can an agent determine which scena=
rio is applicable? Let me try:
An agent that does not support DOIC is always in scenario 4 (no upstream DO=
IC association, no downstream DOIC association).
For an agent that supports DOIC:
When receiving a request that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP=
 the agent is in scenario 3 or 4 (no downstream DOIC association). Whether =
its 3 or 4 depends on whether or not an OLR is received in the correspondin=
g answer.
When receiving a host type request (a request that contains a Destination-H=
ost AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP the agent is in scenario=
 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association) When rece=
iving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Destination-H=
ost AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent is configu=
red to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is scenario 1 or 2 (=
there is a downstream DOIC association). Whether its 1 or 2 depends on whet=
her or not an OLR is received in the corresponding answer.
When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Dest=
ination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent i=
s configured not to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is in s=
cenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association). <=
/Ulrich>





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From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 03:00:26 2014
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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To: dime@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #42: IETF defined example of a stateless application.
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RFC4740 understands and deals with NO_STATE_MAINTAINED.. so we could use =
that?

- Jouni


On Feb 7, 2014, at 10:57 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:

> #42: IETF defined example of a stateless application.
>=20
> In section 3.1.1, under the definition of "Stateless Application", is
> there an IETF defined application that can be added as an example? Not =
all
> readers may be familiar with 3GPP applications.
>=20
> --=20
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
> Priority:  trivial      |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
> Severity:  Active WG    |
>  Document               |
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/42>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #42: IETF defined example of a stateless	application.
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I was proposing the same thing :)

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:00
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Cc=A0: ben@nostrum.com; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #42: IETF defined example of a stateless applic=
ation.


RFC4740 understands and deals with NO_STATE_MAINTAINED.. so we could use th=
at?

- Jouni


On Feb 7, 2014, at 10:57 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org> wrote:

> #42: IETF defined example of a stateless application.
>=20
> In section 3.1.1, under the definition of "Stateless Application", is
> there an IETF defined application that can be added as an example? Not all
> readers may be familiar with 3GPP applications.
>=20
> --=20
> -------------------------+-----------------------------------------------=
--
> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
> Priority:  trivial      |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
> Severity:  Active WG    |
>  Document               |
> -------------------------+-----------------------------------------------=
--
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/42>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20

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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Hi all =20

I also agree with Lionel and Nirav. As Ulrich proposes, I also think good t=
o have a clarification and the hereafter proposed sentence from Ulrich in a=
gent behavior (when acting on behalf of the client) is OK for me:
"When an agent receives an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clie=
nt not supporting DOIC, this agent, acting on behalf of the client, needs t=
o (or MUST) bind the received OLR to the origin-host in the request of the =
client".

JJacques


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 17:55
=C0=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@iet=
f.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

If I'm correct, the following condition:

       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

is not correct as the message containing the OC-OLR AVP is an answer and th=
ere is Destination-Host or Destination-Realm AVPs in an answer.

If you want to clarify something, it can be in the section describing the a=
gent behavior. And such clarification will be that when an agent received a=
n OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, t=
his agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client (=
no need of the origin-realm).

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] Envoy=
=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 17:43 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; ext =
Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additi=
onal report types are proposed

Even if some feel this is implicit, it should not harm to add the d) condit=
ion explicitly please.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:08 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.or=
g
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Isn't it implicit?
An answer is sent to the origin-host of the corresponding request. The agen=
t is not the targeting point of the answer and is not supposed to be the re=
acting node. Now if an agent wants to act on behalf a client not supporting=
 the DOCI mechanism at the application, this agent will have to maintain a =
binding for this client. This requirement is not bound to the overload cont=
rol mechanism but to any function provides by the agent on behalf of downst=
ream clients.=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] Envoy=
=E9=A0: mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 10:32 =C0=A0: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); M=
ORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additi=
onal report types are proposed

Nirav,
... and this natural requirement is missing from the current draft.

To address this requirement we could replace the descriptions for report ty=
pes 0 and 1 with the decriptions of my proposed report types 2 and 3 respec=
tively.

As a consquence, however, the agent in the given example configuration woul=
d have to store always OLRs per client even when S wants all clients to do =
the same throttling. Would that be acceptable?

Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 10:03 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.or=
g
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Ulrich,

I do not think so.
If we believe that there should be host-specific OLR and if we want to supp=
ort the model when the agent acts as reacting node (on behalf of the client=
(s)), then the agents are naturally required to store OLR per client/host b=
ehind the agent (based on the destination-host AVP in the answer message).

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 2:24 PM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Hi Lionel, Nirav,

your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacting=
 node.

In a configuration like this


+-------+
| C1    |          +------+
|       |----------|  A   |               +------+
+-------+          |      |               | S    |
                   |      |---------------|      |
+-------+          |      |               +------+
| C2    |----------|      |
|       |          +------+
+-------+
where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes the =
role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is diff=
erent. According to the current version of the draft this will result in bi=
g mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50% r=
eduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2.=20

Best regards
Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

Same view as Lionel below.
New report types seem more confusing than adding value.

The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (an=
d hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific=
" report and it insert into the message.
No need to define new report types for achieving this.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to=
 each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value recei=
ved in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only=
"?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker=
 Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc=
=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=
 are proposed

#35: additional report types are proposed

Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:

Old description:

> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
> two additional report types are proposed:
>
>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.
>
>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches=20
> the
>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
> request
>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>          OLR AVP.

New description:

 The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DO=
IC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different =
clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
 Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  re=
quirement by adding two new report types.
 two additional report types are proposed:

    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  reque=
st
          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
          OLR AVP.

--

--=20
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/35#comment:2>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
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_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou =
copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez=
 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to=
ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used=
 or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou =
copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez=
 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to=
ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used=
 or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
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From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 03:12:14 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:

> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>=20
> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing =
overload
> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement =
algorithm.
> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not =
make
> sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

- Jouni



>=20
> Note that setting an expiration time to zero is the standard way of
> removing state in several other protocols (e.g. SIP).
>=20
> --=20
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
> Severity:  Active WG    |
>  Document               |
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/45>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20


From lionel.morand@orange.com  Mon Feb 10 03:15:37 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:15:31 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Hi Jouni,

> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported =
algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP =
for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be cre=
ated when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explici=
t.

Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
abatement algorithm..=20

[LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There is no=
 way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR sent i=
n the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could have=
 is "use either one or the other".
The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support mor=
e than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with another a=
lgo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given OLR.=
=20

> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with=
 the OC-OLR AVP.

It is already today if you only support the default, right.

[LM] Right. No issue here.

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es


On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to solv=
e it is not the correct one.

Agree.

> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with seve=
ral algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-Fe=
ature-Vector AVP.

The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.

> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it is=
 not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo w=
hen more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for 2=
 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the =
abatement to perform.

My intention was always allow:

  client announces  ABC
  server supports    BCD
  server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
  alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies

> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported =
algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP =
for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be cre=
ated when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explici=
t.

Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
abatement algorithm..=20

> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with=
 the OC-OLR AVP.

It is already today if you only support the default, right.

- Jouni

>=20
> Lionel=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>=20
> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in
> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reacting
> DOIC endpoint.
> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can do
> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
> messages.
> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other
> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receiving
> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>=20
> a) There is no overload
> b) DOIC is not supported
>=20
> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these
> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>    If there is no single matching
>    capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>    DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>    messages with this specific reacting node.
>=20
> This however is inconsistent.
> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a different
> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the role
> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since
> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
> Supported-Features AVPs.
> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-ietf-
> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>     Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 03:16:19 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overload reports expire
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My reasoning for explicit termination was that knowing the =
implementation
folks they will let overload conditions expire unless advised otherwise.
And having unnecessary stuff hanging around waiting for a cleanup is not
a good thing in general. But I am open here for other options..

- Jouni


On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:59 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:

> #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overload reports expire
>=20
> Section 4.5 says " As a general guidance for implementations it is
> RECOMMENDED never to let any overload report to timeout." In my =
opinion,
> this is bad advice. If an overload report is close to expiring anyway,
> it's better to just let it expire than to generate a new report to end =
the
> condition.
>=20
> Furthermore, this falls into the category of normative language that =
does
> not effect interoperability. That is forbidden by RFC 2119, except for
> situations where not following it does significant harm. If we believe
> letting reports expire does significant harm, we should explain why.
>=20
> --=20
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
> Severity:  Active WG    |
>  Document               |
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/46>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Jouni,
>=20
>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>=20
> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
> abatement algorithm..=20
>=20
> [LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There =
is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the =
OLR sent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that =
you could have is "use either one or the other".

This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node
announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the
sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.

> The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to =
support more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR =
with another algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use =
with the given OLR.

I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..

- Jouni

>=20
>=20
>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along =
with the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>=20
> [LM] Right. No issue here.
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>=20
>> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to =
solve it is not the correct one.
>=20
> Agree.
>=20
>> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with =
several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with =
the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>=20
> The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.
>=20
>> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, =
it is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one =
given algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will =
advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector =
cannot be used to indicate the abatement to perform.
>=20
> My intention was always allow:
>=20
>  client announces  ABC
>  server supports    BCD
>  server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
>  alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies
>=20
>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>=20
> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
> abatement algorithm..=20
>=20
>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along =
with the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>>=20
>> Lionel=20
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>=20
>> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>=20
>> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism =
in
>> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP
>> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the =
reacting
>> DOIC endpoint.
>> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node =
can do
>> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to =
allow
>> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
>> messages.
>> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
>> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no =
other
>> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs =
from
>> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly =
indicates
>> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not =
receiving
>> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>>=20
>> a) There is no overload
>> b) DOIC is not supported
>>=20
>> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between =
these
>> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both =
cases.
>> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>>   If there is no single matching
>>   capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>>   DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>>   messages with this specific reacting node.
>>=20
>> This however is inconsistent.
>> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
>> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
>> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a =
different
>> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
>> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the =
role
>> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role =
since
>> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
>> Supported-Features AVPs.
>> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  =
draft-ietf-
>> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
>> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or =
even
>> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>>    Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
>> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
>> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>=20
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
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>> Thank you.
>>=20
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>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
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> Thank you.
>=20


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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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>>      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>>         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> 
> It is perfectly valid to send a request that has Destination-Host AVP
> but no Destination-Realm AVP. It just means the Diameter nodes must 
> be adjacent peers. 
> <Ulrich> ok, then let's remove b) from 0</Ulrich>

My statement above is actually wrong. Sorry about misinformation. 

- Jouni




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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:30:48 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)

The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested=
 for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is rece=
ived for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies,=
 *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.

Is it clearer?

Lioenl=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46
=C0=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wie=
he@nsn.com> wrote:
>=20
>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely=
 extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at=
 all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why s=
hould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the n=
ot at all overloaded S1?
>> What is wrong with letting the client
>> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
>> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
>> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>=20
> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>


Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case
except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?

If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying
the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.

- Jouni


> I am OK with Lionel's
> "wording" here.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand=
@orange.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing=
 principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destin=
ation-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there =
is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>>=20
>> Lioenl
>>=20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56
>> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests ta=
rgeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that =
it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>>=20
>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the =
interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>=20
>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host se=
cond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of real=
m overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction=
 needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive re=
alm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohi=
bited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole re=
alm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the r=
eacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for =
the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... =
except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this=
 destination-host.
>>=20
>> Does it make sense?
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>> treatment of a given report type applies.
>> Proposal:
>>=20
>>    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>>       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>=20
>>=20
>> ________________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confi=
dentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez r=
ecu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages=
 electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme =
ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and d=
elete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have be=
en modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Mon Feb 10 03:36:42 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:36:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es


On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Jouni,
>=20
>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported=
 algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP=
 for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be cr=
eated when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explic=
it.
>=20
> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
> abatement algorithm..=20
>=20
> [LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There is =
no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR sent=
 in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could ha=
ve is "use either one or the other".

This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node
announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the
sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.

[LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector MAY =
be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the common=
 algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.

> The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support m=
ore than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with another=
 algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given OLR.

I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..

[LM] I was not proposing such idea :)

- Jouni

>=20
>=20
>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along wit=
h the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>=20
> [LM] Right. No issue here.
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>=20
>> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to sol=
ve it is not the correct one.
>=20
> Agree.
>=20
>> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with sev=
eral algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-F=
eature-Vector AVP.
>=20
> The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.
>=20
>> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it i=
s not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo =
when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for =
2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the=
 abatement to perform.
>=20
> My intention was always allow:
>=20
>  client announces  ABC
>  server supports    BCD
>  server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
>  alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies
>=20
>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported=
 algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP=
 for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be cr=
eated when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explic=
it.
>=20
> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
> abatement algorithm..=20
>=20
>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along wit=
h the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>>=20
>> Lionel=20
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>=20
>> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>=20
>> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in
>> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
>> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reacti=
ng
>> DOIC endpoint.
>> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can =
do
>> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
>> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
>> messages.
>> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
>> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other
>> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
>> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
>> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receivi=
ng
>> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>>=20
>> a) There is no overload
>> b) DOIC is not supported
>>=20
>> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these
>> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
>> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>>   If there is no single matching
>>   capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>>   DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>>   messages with this specific reacting node.
>>=20
>> This however is inconsistent.
>> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
>> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
>> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a differe=
nt
>> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
>> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the ro=
le
>> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since
>> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
>> Supported-Features AVPs.
>> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-iet=
f-
>> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
>> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
>> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>>    Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
>> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
>> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>=20
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>=20
>>=20
>> ________________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confi=
dentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez r=
ecu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages=
 electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme =
ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and d=
elete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have be=
en modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Feb 10 04:55:46 2014
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To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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References: <066.b54c2f5aeb31c9b3f88c96008120290d@trac.tools.ietf.org> <24563_1391533955_52F11F82_24563_614_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E477563@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F25115.9030204@usdonovans.com> <32153_1391613236_52F25534_32153_19305_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487240@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2236@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <D5537D63-8863-4F8E-8E61-A9ED93D957BB@gmail.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B25AF@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097723D7@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Dear  all

I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is know=
n=20
- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not=
 known (only the Destination realm).

I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g abou=
t the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm is=
 overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (so =
no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel com=
ment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 ac=
cording to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.

JJacques

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear all,

I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he pro=
vided.
----
As a summary:
Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent =
and host type OLRs from the servers.
The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sen=
ding/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be rel=
evant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type request=
s.
-----

It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and th=
en it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not =
apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client=
 will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has be=
en received by Client.
The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plu=
s Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the so=
lution.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
To: ext Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely =
extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at =
all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why sh=
ould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the no=
t at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?

Isn't this what Lionel said below?
<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
 I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@=
orange.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing =
principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destina=
tion-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there i=
s an explicit report for the destination-host.
> =20
> Lioenl
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests tar=
geted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that i=
t would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>=20
> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the i=
nteraction between realm reports and host reports.
>=20
> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host sec=
ond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm=
 overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction =
needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive rea=
lm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohib=
ited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole rea=
lm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the re=
acting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for t=
he realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... e=
xcept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this =
destination-host.
> =20
> Does it make sense?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>  treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
> =20
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its valu=
e
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messag=
e
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> =20
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
> =20
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_______________________________________________
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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Mon Feb 10 05:25:33 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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References: <066.b54c2f5aeb31c9b3f88c96008120290d@trac.tools.ietf.org> <24563_1391533955_52F11F82_24563_614_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E477563@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F25115.9030204@usdonovans.com> <32153_1391613236_52F25534_32153_19305_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487240@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2236@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <D5537D63-8863-4F8E-8E61-A9ED93D957BB@gmail.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B25AF@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097723D7@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D202663C0C@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.

I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host
- If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic red=
uction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No=
 reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
- If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and=
 for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messa=
ges with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will ap=
ply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm A=
VP).

In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm red=
uction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the react=
ing has received info about both type of overload.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear  all

I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is know=
n=20
- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not=
 known (only the Destination realm).

I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g abou=
t the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm is=
 overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (so =
no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel com=
ment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 ac=
cording to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.

JJacques

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear all,

I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he pro=
vided.
----
As a summary:
Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent =
and host type OLRs from the servers.
The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sen=
ding/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be rel=
evant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type request=
s.
-----

It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and th=
en it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not =
apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client=
 will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has be=
en received by Client.
The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plu=
s Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the so=
lution.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
To: ext Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely =
extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at =
all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why sh=
ould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the no=
t at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?

Isn't this what Lionel said below?
<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
 I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

>=20=20
>=20=20
>=20=20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@=
orange.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20=20
> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing =
principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destina=
tion-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there i=
s an explicit report for the destination-host.
>=20=20
> Lioenl
>=20=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20=20
> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests tar=
geted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that i=
t would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>=20
> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the i=
nteraction between realm reports and host reports.
>=20
> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host sec=
ond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm=
 overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction =
needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive rea=
lm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohib=
ited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole rea=
lm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the re=
acting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for t=
he realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... e=
xcept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this =
destination-host.
>=20=20
> Does it make sense?
>=20=20
> Lionel
>=20=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20=20
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20=20
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>  treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
>=20=20
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20=20
>=20=20
>=20=20
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20=20
>=20=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
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>=20=20
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Mon Feb 10 05:47:53 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
Thread-Index: AQHPJLlGaYcs5B7+bkSRJFt4wCbOs5quglmQ
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 13:47:47 +0000
Message-ID: <14044_1392040069_52F8D885_14044_469_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4975BB@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
References: <066.f8b7ffcffcd55b9e56fa2bfc281d4649@trac.tools.ietf.org> <29423_1391537999_52F12F4F_29423_3802_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E47772A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A4B@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F24BC0.6070600@usdonovans.com> <29564_1391614624_52F25AA0_29564_1057_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487344@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2ACDC7E8-A46D-4618-92CE-B793AF3A8F75@nostrum.com> <29459_1391615624_52F25E88_29459_734_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4873CD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <29FCFFE7-64BF-4928-A3DF-F2FC0D1EFBC6@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B23D7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52F3AF0D.3050306@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B253C@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <855AE46B-9E69-452E-A8C7-9AA26019A4B4@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real r=
equirements for the sequence-number are:

- Globally/eternally unique
- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by S=
teve)=20

The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to =
generate sequence numbers with such properties.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy=E9=A0: samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33
=C0=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR


Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:

o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
  reason to remember anything about it
o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
  "globally and eternally unique".

- Jouni



On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> Steve,
>=20=20
> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync afte=
r OLR expiry.
> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything =
about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any =
value.=20
>=20
>=20=20
> Ulrich
>=20=20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
>=20=20
> A couple of things -=20
>=20
> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over t=
ime, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but=
 is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set=
 the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and =
then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overloa=
d report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp =
as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global =
sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server=
 query that global sequence number server after each reboot.
>=20
> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way=
 to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of a=
n active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no rea=
son to remember anything about it and the next overload report received cou=
ld, conceivably have any value.=20
>=20
> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter=
 specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally a=
nd eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiatio=
n is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.
>=20
> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP =
timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a sim=
ilar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandator=
y portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for t=
he implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
>=20=20
> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
> The receiver would accept
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
> and then silently discards
> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
> with no way to come back to sync.
>=20=20
> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>=20=20
> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plau=
sibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and tim=
e of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the probl=
em. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>=20=20
> Ulrich
>=20=20
>=20=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
> To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
>=20=20
> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number alwa=
ys increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that t=
he sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably=
 a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an=
 interop requirement.
>=20=20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@ora=
nge.com> wrote:
>=20=20
> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it i=
s a case for a "MUST".
> We are not violating anything.
>=20=20
> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to=
 know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format=
 of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
>=20=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR
>=20=20
> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet=
 the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementat=
ion. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Se=
ction 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>=20=20
> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>=20=20
> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expecte=
d peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfec=
tly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-nor=
mative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good =
way to do this.
>=20=20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>=20=20
> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case t=
o mandate a specific semantic.
>=20=20
> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a=
 simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>=20=20
> Lionel
>=20=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR
>=20=20
> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  Th=
ere is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be in=
cluded only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>=20=20
> Steve
>=20=20
> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
> I also agree.
>=20=20
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>=20=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
>=20=20
> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>=20=20
> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this se=
quence-number.
>=20=20
> Lionel
>=20=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>=20=20
> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>=20=20
> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>    From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>    related or correlated.
>=20=20
>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>=20=20
>=20=20
> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out =
 of sync (for whatever reason).
> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  =
timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created, =
 and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception =
 must be ignored by the reacting node.
>=20=20
>=20=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>=20=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20=20
>=20=20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>=20=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
>=20=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20=20
>=20=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From srdonovan@usdonovans.com  Mon Feb 10 05:58:44 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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+1
On 2/10/14 7:47 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real requirements for the sequence-number are:
>
> - Globally/eternally unique
> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by Steve) 
>
> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
> Envoyé : samedi 8 février 2014 11:33
> À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>
>
> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
>
> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>   reason to remember anything about it
> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based 
>   on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it 
>   "globally and eternally unique".
>
> - Jouni
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>  
>> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after OLR expiry.
>> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
>> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 
>>
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> A couple of things - 
>>
>> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each reboot.
>>
>> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 
>>
>> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.
>>
>> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
>> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
>>  
>> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
>> but the receicer for any reason receives 
>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
>> The receiver would accept
>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
>> and then silently discards
>> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, .... 
>> with no way to come back to sync.
>>  
>> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>>  
>> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
>> To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
>>  
>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>>  
>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
>> We are not violating anything.
>>  
>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
>>  
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com] 
>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 16:47
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>  
>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>  
>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good way to do this.
>>  
>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>  
>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to mandate a specific semantic.
>>  
>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>  
>> Lionel
>>  
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:34
>> À : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>  
>> Steve
>>  
>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>> I also agree.
>>  
>> Regards,
>> Nirav.
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>  
>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.
>>  
>> Lionel
>>  
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:50
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>    From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>    related or correlated.
>>  
>>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>  
>>  
>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>  
>>  
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>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
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> _______________________________________________
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>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 7:47 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:14044_1392040069_52F8D885_14044_469_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4975BB@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real requirements for the sequence-number are:

- Globally/eternally unique
- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by Steve) 

The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: samedi 8 f&eacute;vrier 2014 11:33
&Agrave;&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR


Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:

o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
  reason to remember anything about it
o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based 
  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it 
  "globally and eternally unique".

- Jouni



On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Steve,
 
sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after OLR expiry.
This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 

 
Ulrich
 
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
A couple of things - 

The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each reboot.

We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 

The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.

It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."

Steve

On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
 
Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
but the receicer for any reason receives 
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
The receiver would accept
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
and then silently discards
3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, .... 
with no way to come back to sync.
 
Are we sure that this cannot happen?
 
Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
 
Ulrich
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
To: ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
 
On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:
 
Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
We are not violating anything.
 
Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
 
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Ben Campbell [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>] 
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:47
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
 
"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
 
The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good way to do this.
 
On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:
 
I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to mandate a specific semantic.
 
Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
 
Lionel
 
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:34
&Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
 
Steve
 
On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
I also agree.
 
Regards,
Nirav.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
 
In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.
 
Lionel
 
-----Message d'origine-----
De : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]
Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:50
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
   related or correlated.
 
   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
 
 
With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
 
 
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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
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To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Hi Lionel=20

Please see in line

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 14:25
=C0=A0: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.

I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host
[JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; =
coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node =
has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduct=
ion, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
  =20
- If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic red=
uction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No=
 reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
[JJ] OK
=20
- If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and=
 for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messa=
ges with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will ap=
ply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm A=
VP).
[JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails

In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm red=
uction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the react=
ing has received info about both type of overload.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56 =C0=A0: dime@=
ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear  all

I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is know=
n
- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not=
 known (only the Destination realm).

I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g abou=
t the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm is=
 overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (so =
no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel com=
ment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 ac=
cording to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.

JJacques

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear all,

I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he pro=
vided.
----
As a summary:
Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent =
and host type OLRs from the servers.
The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sen=
ding/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be rel=
evant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type request=
s.
-----

It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and th=
en it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not =
apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client=
 will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has be=
en received by Client.
The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plu=
s Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the so=
lution.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
To: ext Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely =
extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at =
all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why sh=
ould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the no=
t at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?

Isn't this what Lionel said below?
<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
 I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@=
orange.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing =
principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destina=
tion-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there i=
s an explicit report for the destination-host.
> =20
> Lioenl
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests tar=
geted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that i=
t would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>=20
> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the i=
nteraction between realm reports and host reports.
>=20
> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host sec=
ond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm=
 overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction =
needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive rea=
lm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohib=
ited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole rea=
lm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the re=
acting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for t=
he realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... e=
xcept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this =
destination-host.
> =20
> Does it make sense?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>  treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
> =20
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its valu=
e
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messag=
e
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> =20
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
> =20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
u falsifie. Merci.
> =20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i=
nformation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
lete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee=
n modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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To: lionel.morand@orange.com, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>,  "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
References: <066.b54c2f5aeb31c9b3f88c96008120290d@trac.tools.ietf.org> <24563_1391533955_52F11F82_24563_614_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E477563@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F25115.9030204@usdonovans.com> <32153_1391613236_52F25534_32153_19305_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487240@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2236@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <D5537D63-8863-4F8E-8E61-A9ED93D957BB@gmail.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B25AF@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <D0825377-3A2A-4A5B-B449-AAC4BC247E3F@gmail.com> <11942_1392031849_52F8B869_11942_4754_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497162@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic
targeted for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the
destination-host avp.  Is that correct?

I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report should
take precedence over the host overload report.

My reasoning is as follows:

- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm. 
Call it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the realm can be
based on a number of factors including the health of individual servers,
individual agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.

- When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network is
congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to send
realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic
sent to the realm as a whole will be reduced.

In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence
over the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that requests
targeted for a healthy server will be throttled.

I propose the logic should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
  If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports
in any answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain
a destination-host AVP.

Steve

On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)
>
> The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.
>
> Is it clearer?
>
> Lioenl 
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
> Envoyé : dimanche 9 février 2014 13:46
> À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>>> What is wrong with letting the client
>>> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
>>> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
>>> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
>> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>
> Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case
> except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?
>
> If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying
> the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.
>
> - Jouni
>
>
>> I am OK with Lionel's
>> "wording" here.
>>
>> - Jouni
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@orange.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>>>
>>> Lioenl
>>>
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:56
>>> À : dime@ietf.org
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>>>
>>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>>
>>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.
>>>
>>> Does it make sense?
>>>
>>> Lionel
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org] 
>>> Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:55
>>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>>> treatment of a given report type applies.
>>> Proposal:
>>>
>>>    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>>>       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>>>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
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>>>
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>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I think we have agreement
      that a realm report applies to all traffic targeted for that
      realm, independent of the presence or absence of the
      destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is that correct?<br>
      <br>
      I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload report
      should take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
      <br>
      My reasoning is as follows:<br>
      <br>
      - There is something responsible for tracking the health of the
      realm.&nbsp; Call it the "realm overload authority".&nbsp; The health of the
      realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of
      individual servers, individual agents and the network connecting
      Diameter entities.<br>
      <br>
      - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP
      network is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or
      servers to send realm overload reports with the expectation that
      the overall traffic sent to the realm as a whole will be reduced.<br>
      <br>
      In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes
      precedence over the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is likely
      that requests targeted for a healthy server will be throttled.<br>
      <br>
      I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
      <br>
      For all requests:<br>
      &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
      &nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
      <br>
      Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload
      reports in any answer message, not just answers to requests that
      did not contain a destination-host AVP.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:11942_1392031849_52F8B869_11942_4754_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497162@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)

The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.

Is it clearer?

Lioenl 

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] 
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:46
&Agrave;&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] 
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
What is wrong with letting the client
-not throttle host-type requests to S1,
-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Isn't this what Lionel said below?
&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case
except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?

If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying
the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.

- Jouni


</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">


From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
To: Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.

Lioenl

De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:56
&Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.

If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.

I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.

Steve

On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:
The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.

Does it make sense?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] 
Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:55
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
treatment of a given report type applies.
Proposal:

   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
      for which all of the following conditions are true:
      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.



   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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Thank you.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers 
> to the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.
> <Ulrich>yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not harm to keep c)</Ulrich>
SRD> I don't see the reason for including this statement.  By
definition, an overload report
applies to the application ID in the answer message.  There is no way
for the application-id
in the answer message to be different than the application-id in the
request message without
breaking Diameter.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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I'll attempt to summarize where we are on this.  If this is agreed to
then the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.  Some of this
is already in the draft, some of it will require changes.

- The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to include
the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change required here.

- A reporting node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be
sent to a reacting node from the set of abatement algorithms included in
the OC-Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.

- If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the
reacting node must be loss.

- The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with the
loss algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.

- If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm
other then loss, the reacting node must include the
OC-Supported-Features AVP with a single algorithm indicated in the
OC-Feature-Vector AVP.

- New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing
OC-OLR AVP.  The new algorithms may also create a new overload report
AVP if that makes the most sense.

- The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement
algorithm.  Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the
mandatory to implement algorithm.

Steve

On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
> Envoyé : lundi 10 février 2014 12:24
> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jouni,
>>
>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>> abatement algorithm.. 
>>
>> [LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR sent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could have is "use either one or the other".
> This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node
> announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the
> sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.
>
> [LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector MAY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the common algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.
>
>> The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with another algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given OLR.
> I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..
>
> [LM] I was not proposing such idea :)
>
> - Jouni
>
>>
>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with the OC-OLR AVP.
>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>
>> [LM] Right. No issue here.
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>> Envoyé : vendredi 7 février 2014 11:04
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>
>>
>> On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>
>>> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to solve it is not the correct one.
>> Agree.
>>
>>> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>> The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.
>>
>>> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the abatement to perform.
>> My intention was always allow:
>>
>>  client announces  ABC
>>  server supports    BCD
>>  server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
>>  alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies
>>
>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>> abatement algorithm.. 
>>
>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with the OC-OLR AVP.
>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>
>> - Jouni
>>
>>> Lionel 
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org] 
>>> Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:48
>>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>>> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>
>>> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>
>>> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in
>>> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
>>> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reacting
>>> DOIC endpoint.
>>> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can do
>>> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
>>> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
>>> messages.
>>> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
>>> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other
>>> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
>>> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
>>> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receiving
>>> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>>>
>>> a) There is no overload
>>> b) DOIC is not supported
>>>
>>> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these
>>> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
>>> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>>>   If there is no single matching
>>>   capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>>>   DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>>>   messages with this specific reacting node.
>>>
>>> This however is inconsistent.
>>> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
>>> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
>>> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a different
>>> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
>>> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the role
>>> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since
>>> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
>>> Supported-Features AVPs.
>>> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-ietf-
>>> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
>>> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
>>> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>>>    Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
>>> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
>>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
>>> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>>
>>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
>>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>>
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>>
>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
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>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I'll attempt to summarize
      where we are on this.&nbsp; If this is agreed to then the necessary
      changes would be made to the -01 draft.&nbsp; Some of this is already
      in the draft, some of it will require changes.<br>
      <br>
      - The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to
      include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No
      change required here.<br>
    </font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
        Roman, Times, serif">- A reporting node must choose the overload
        abatement algorithm to be sent to a reacting node from the set
        of abatement algorithms included in the OC-Supported-Features
        AVP received in the request message.<br>
        <br>
      </font>- If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no
      OC-Supported-Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the
      reacting node must be loss.<br>
      <br>
      - The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP
      with the loss algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.<br>
      <br>
      - If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an
      algorithm other then loss, the reacting node must include the
      OC-Supported-Features AVP with a single algorithm indicated in the
      OC-Feature-Vector AVP. <br>
      <br>
      - New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the
      existing OC-OLR AVP.&nbsp; The new algorithms may also create a new
      overload report AVP if that makes the most sense.<br>
      <br>
      - The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to
      implement algorithm.&nbsp; Or it will be until a new RFC is published
      that changes the mandatory to implement algorithm.<br>
      <br>
      Steve <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 5:36 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:24932_1392032199_52F8B9C7_24932_4247_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49718B@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] 
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 12:24
&Agrave;&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages


On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hi Jouni,

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
abatement algorithm.. 

[LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR sent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could have is "use either one or the other".
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node
announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the
sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.

[LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector MAY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the common algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with another algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given OLR.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..

[LM] I was not proposing such idea :)

- Jouni

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with the OC-OLR AVP.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
It is already today if you only support the default, right.

[LM] Right. No issue here.

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Jouni Korhonen [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] 
Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 7 f&eacute;vrier 2014 11:04
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages


On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to solve it is not the correct one.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Agree.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the abatement to perform.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
My intention was always allow:

 client announces  ABC
 server supports    BCD
 server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
 alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
abatement algorithm.. 

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with the OC-OLR AVP.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
It is already today if you only support the default, right.

- Jouni

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
Lionel 

-----Message d'origine-----
De : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] 
Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:48
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in
the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reacting
DOIC endpoint.
The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can do
with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
messages.
Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other
feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receiving
an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:

a) There is no overload
b) DOIC is not supported

The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these
two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
  If there is no single matching
  capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
  DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
  messages with this specific reacting node.

This however is inconsistent.
The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a different
path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the role
of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since
the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
Supported-Features AVPs.
In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-ietf-
dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.

-- 
--------------------------------------+--------------------------
Reporter:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
   Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
--------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30&gt;</a>
dime <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a>


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_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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      <pre wrap="">

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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+1 on adding an agent behavior sub-section to section 5.5 and that it
should capture Ulrich's wording that an agent must be able to
differentiate OLRs and the resulting abatement on a per client basis.

Steve

On 2/10/14 5:09 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
> Hi all  
>
> I also agree with Lionel and Nirav. As Ulrich proposes, I also think good to have a clarification and the hereafter proposed sentence from Ulrich in agent behavior (when acting on behalf of the client) is OK for me:
> "When an agent receives an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent, acting on behalf of the client, needs to (or MUST) bind the received OLR to the origin-host in the request of the client".
>
> JJacques
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange.com
> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 17:55
> À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> If I'm correct, the following condition:
>
>        d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  request
>           match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>           AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>           OLR AVP.
>
> is not correct as the message containing the OC-OLR AVP is an answer and there is Destination-Host or Destination-Realm AVPs in an answer.
>
> If you want to clarify something, it can be in the section describing the agent behavior. And such clarification will be that when an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client (no need of the origin-realm).
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 17:43 À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Even if some feel this is implicit, it should not harm to add the d) condition explicitly please.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:08 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Isn't it implicit?
> An answer is sent to the origin-host of the corresponding request. The agent is not the targeting point of the answer and is not supposed to be the reacting node. Now if an agent wants to act on behalf a client not supporting the DOCI mechanism at the application, this agent will have to maintain a binding for this client. This requirement is not bound to the overload control mechanism but to any function provides by the agent on behalf of downstream clients. 
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 10:32 À : ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Nirav,
> ... and this natural requirement is missing from the current draft.
>
> To address this requirement we could replace the descriptions for report types 0 and 1 with the decriptions of my proposed report types 2 and 3 respectively.
>
> As a consquence, however, the agent in the given example configuration would have to store always OLRs per client even when S wants all clients to do the same throttling. Would that be acceptable?
>
> Ulrich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 10:03 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Ulrich,
>
> I do not think so.
> If we believe that there should be host-specific OLR and if we want to support the model when the agent acts as reacting node (on behalf of the client(s)), then the agents are naturally required to store OLR per client/host behind the agent (based on the destination-host AVP in the answer message).
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 2:24 PM
> To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Hi Lionel, Nirav,
>
> your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacting node.
>
> In a configuration like this
>
>
> +-------+
> | C1    |          +------+
> |       |----------|  A   |               +------+
> +-------+          |      |               | S    |
>                    |      |---------------|      |
> +-------+          |      |               +------+
> | C2    |----------|      |
> |       |          +------+
> +-------+
> where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is different. According to the current version of the draft this will result in big mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50% reduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2. 
>
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
> To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Same view as Lionel below.
> New report types seem more confusing than adding value.
>
> The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (and hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specific" report and it insert into the message.
> No need to define new report types for achieving this.
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
> In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send to each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value received in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you only"?
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 16:39 À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:
>
> Old description:
>
>> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33) 
>> two additional report types are proposed:
>>
>>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches 
>> the
>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the 
>> request
>>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>>          OLR AVP.
>>
>>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches 
>> the
>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the 
>> request
>>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>>          OLR AVP.
> New description:
>
>  The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  DOIC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  different clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
>  Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  requirement by adding two new report types.
>  two additional report types are proposed:
>
>     2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  request
>           match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>           AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>           OLR AVP.
>
>     3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  request
>           match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>           AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC-
>           OLR AVP.
>
> --
>


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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 09:25:05 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Cc: ben@nostrum.com, draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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+1

Do we have agreement to make this change?

Steve

On 2/10/14 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>>
>> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
>> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
>> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
>> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
>> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
>> sense for all future ones.)
> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>
> - Jouni
>
>
>
>> Note that setting an expiration time to zero is the standard way of
>> removing state in several other protocols (e.g. SIP).
>>
>> -- 
>> -------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
>> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
>> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
>> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
>> Severity:  Active WG    |
>>  Document               |
>> -------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/45>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">+1<br>
      <br>
      Do we have agreement to make this change?<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:A27A0204-5080-46F6-B1F4-B4FE1CB1AD5D@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">&lt;trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

- Jouni



</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
Note that setting an expiration time to zero is the standard way of
removing state in several other protocols (e.g. SIP).

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>        |  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ovli@tools.ietf.org">ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>
    Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
 docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
Severity:  Active WG    |
 Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/45">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/45&gt;</a>
dime <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a>

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

</pre>
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Hi Steve

Thanks to have summarize this topic. I agree with your various statements t=
hat reflect in particular my own comments.

About mandatory for the default (loss) algorithm, effectively we  need this=
 for interoperability. Cannot it be stated in the draft? Future RFCs will h=
ave to be compatible with this .

Best regards

JJacques



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 16:08
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

I'll attempt to summarize where we are on this.  If this is agreed to then =
the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.  Some of this is alre=
ady in the draft, some of it will require changes.

- The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to include the=
 OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change required here.

- A reporting node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be sent =
to a reacting node from the set of abatement algorithms included in the OC-=
Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.

- If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the reacting node must be l=
oss.

- The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with the los=
s algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.

- If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm other=
 then loss, the reacting node must include the OC-Supported-Features AVP wi=
th a single algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.

- New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing OC-OLR=
 AVP.  The new algorithms may also create a new overload report AVP if that=
 makes the most sense.

- The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement algor=
ithm.  Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the mandator=
y to implement algorithm.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:





-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages





On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.moran=
d@orange.com> wrote:



Hi Jouni,



As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported al=
gos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP fo=
r the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be creat=
ed when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.



Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms

IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced

abatement algorithm..



[LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There is no=
 way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR sent i=
n the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could have=
 is "use either one or the other".



This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node

announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the

sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.



[LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector MAY =
be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the common=
 algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.



The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support mor=
e than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with another a=
lgo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given OLR.



I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..



[LM] I was not proposing such idea :)



- Jouni







It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with t=
he OC-OLR AVP.



It is already today if you only support the default, right.



[LM] Right. No issue here.



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages





On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@o=
range.com> wrote:



I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to solve =
it is not the correct one.



Agree.



The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with severa=
l algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-Feat=
ure-Vector AVP.



The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.



But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it is n=
ot possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo whe=
n more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 s=
upported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the ab=
atement to perform.



My intention was always allow:



 client announces  ABC

 server supports    BCD

 server announced only  e.g. C since it is common

 alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies



As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported al=
gos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP fo=
r the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be creat=
ed when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.



Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms

IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced

abatement algorithm..



It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with t=
he OC-OLR AVP.



It is already today if you only support the default, right.



- Jouni





Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages



#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages



According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in

the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP

in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reacting

DOIC endpoint.

The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can do

with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow

reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer

messages.

Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).

A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other

feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from

reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates

support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receiving

an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:



a) There is no overload

b) DOIC is not supported



The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these

two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.

The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:

  If there is no single matching

  capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement

  DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter

  messages with this specific reacting node.



This however is inconsistent.

The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never

recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.

Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a different

path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that

supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the role

of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since

the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-

Supported-Features AVPs.

In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-ietf-

dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other

drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even

describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.



--

--------------------------------------+--------------------------

Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>  |    =
  Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe

   Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new

Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:

Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:

Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:

--------------------------------------+--------------------------



Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30><http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>

dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/><http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>





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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks to have summarize =
this topic. I agree with your various statements that reflect in particular=
 my own comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">About mandatory for the d=
efault (loss) algorithm, effectively we &nbsp;need this for interoperabilit=
y. Cannot it be stated in the draft? Future RFCs will have to
 be compatible with this .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2</span><span lang=3D"FR" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;=
color:windowtext">014 16:08<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in ans=
wer messages<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I'll attempt to summa=
rize where we are on this.&nbsp; If this is agreed to then the necessary ch=
anges would be made to the -01 draft.&nbsp; Some of this is already in the =
draft, some of it will require changes.<br>
<br>
- The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to include the=
 OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change required here.<br=
>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Times">- A reporting node must choose the overlo=
ad abatement algorithm to be sent to a reacting node from the set of abatem=
ent algorithms included in the OC-Supported-Features AVP received in the re=
quest message.<br>
<br>
</span>- If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no OC-Suppo=
rted-Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the reacting node mu=
st be loss.<br>
<br>
- The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with the los=
s algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.<br>
<br>
- If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm other=
 then loss, the reacting node must include the OC-Supported-Features AVP wi=
th a single algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
<br>
<br>
- New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing OC-OLR=
 AVP.&nbsp; The new algorithms may also create a new overload report AVP if=
 that makes the most sense.<br>
<br>
- The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement algor=
ithm.&nbsp; Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the man=
datory to implement algorithm.<br>
<br>
Steve <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answe=
r messages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Hi Jouni,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize support=
ed algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report A=
VP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be =
created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-expl=
icit.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>abatement algorithm.. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There =
is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR s=
ent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could=
 have is &quot;use either one or the other&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting no=
de<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector=
 MAY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the c=
ommon algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to suppor=
t more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with anot=
her algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given =
OLR.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs.=
.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[LM] I was not proposing such idea :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along w=
ith the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>It is already today if you only support the default, right.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[LM] Right. No issue here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer mes=
sages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to s=
olve it is not the correct one.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with s=
everal algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC=
-Feature-Vector AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it=
 is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given alg=
o when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 fo=
r 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate t=
he abatement to perform.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>My intention was always allow:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> client announces&nbsp; ABC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> server supports&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BCD<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> server announced only&nbsp; e.g. C since it is common<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre> alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize support=
ed algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report A=
VP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be =
created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-expl=
icit.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>abatement algorithm.. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along w=
ith the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>It is already today if you only support the default, right.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism i=
n<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reac=
ting<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DOIC endpoint.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The author of this document believes that&nbsp; the best a reacting no=
de can do<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>messages.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no ot=
her<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO&nbsp; by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not =
receiving<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>a) There is no overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>b) DOIC is not supported<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between thes=
e<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The -01 draft says in&nbsp; clause 4.1:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; If there is no single matching<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not impleme=
nt<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diamete=
r<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; messages with this specific reacting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This however is inconsistent.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a diffe=
rent<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the =
role<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role si=
nce<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>Supported-Features AVPs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within&nbsp; dr=
aft-ietf-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>dime-ovli&nbsp; (i.e. never, since extensions will&nbsp; be defined in=
 other<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli&nbsp; to mandate or=
 even<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>--------------------------------------&#43;--------------------------<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporter:&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.mor=
and@orange.com</a>&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Owner:&nbsp; Ulric=
h Wiehe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp; defect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Status:&nbsp; new<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Priority:&nbsp; major&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&n=
bsp; Milestone:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Component:&nbsp; draft-docdt-dime-ovli&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; Version:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Severity:&nbsp; Active WG Document&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Keywords:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>--------------------------------------&#43;--------------------------<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ticket URL: <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/=
30">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30&gt;</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>dime <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.=
org/wg/dime/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
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<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
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<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
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<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From ben@nostrum.com  Mon Feb 10 07:53:36 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:

>=20
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
>> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>>=20
>> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
>> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing =
overload
>> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement =
algorithm.
>> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
>> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not =
make
>> sense for all future ones.)
>=20
> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>=20

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two =
reasons:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to =
algorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes =
semantically identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This =
allows a simpler implementation.



From srdonovan@usdonovans.com  Mon Feb 10 07:57:06 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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We are dealing with two different definitions of endpoints.  Ulrich
diagram is all wrong when using my definition of endpoints.  Ulrich's
diagram is correct when using Ulrich's definition of endpoints.

The basic difference between the two definitions is when an agent
becomes an endpoint.

In my definition an agent that supports DOIC is an endpoint for all
transactions.

In Ulrich's definition an agent is only an endpoint if it needs to be
either a reporting node (in the case that is is acting as a server front
end or reporting realm overload) or a reacting node (when it is doing
abatement for an non supporting client).

I think that the behavior of Diameter clients and servers are the same
for both of these definitions, but we still don't have enough behavior
definition to say for sure.

I'm not ready to say which approach is better, especially when factoring
extensions to DOIC.  Maybe we can have a discussion on this topic in London.

Steve

On 2/4/14 7:43 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Steve,
>
> please find comments inline.
>
> Regards
> Ulrich
>
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 12:55 AM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
>
> All,
>
> I believe that the current DOIC Endpoint behavior definition is not sufficiently defined, especially for agents.
> <Ulrich> I agree. </Ulrich>
>
> There was also a change introduced in the -01 version of the draft that implies that there can be a DOIC association that goes through a DOIC enabled agent.  This was not  how I understood endpoints.
> <Ulrich> same with me </Ulrich>  The original diagrams showed a DOIC agent as terminating an endpoint that came to it.    I suspect there were different assumptions that lead to clearly different interpretations.  
>
> I propose that we return to the original diagrams and add the wording below on how DOC agents behave.  One way to look at this is that DOC agents act as back-to-back DOC endpoints.  I intentionally don't say back-to-back Diameter endpoints because this does not impact anything except the handling of DOIC related AVPs.
>
> Note that I don't believe this requires any changes to Diameter clients or servers.  I also don't believe this requires any changes to the contents of the DOIC related AVPs but there is an open question as to whether there is a need to indicate when a OC-Supported-Features AVP is generated or modified by an agent.
>
> I propose to add the following section to the section on capabilities announcement.  I'll send a separate email proposing text to section 5.5 on how DOC agents are to behave. 
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
> -----
>
> 5.3.1 DOC Agent handling of DOIC capability exchange.
>
> A DOC agent is defined as a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension.
> <Ulrich> A Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension is not necessarily taking the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint.
> It only takes the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint when receiving a request that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.
> Similarily a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extensions is not necessarily taking the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint.
> It only takes the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint when receiving a realm type request (not containing a destination host) that contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP while it is configured to act as a reporting DOIC endpoint for that realm. </Ulrich>
>
> A DOC node is defined as a Diameter client, Diameter server or Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension
> <Ulrich> and decided to take the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and/or reporting DOIC endpoint </Ulrich>.
>
> An downstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between the DOIC supporting Diameter entity that sends a Diameter request message to a DOC agent and the DOC agent.
>
> A upstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between a DOC agent and the Diameter entity to which the DOC agent sends the Diameter request message.  The following illustrated the upstream and downstream concepts.
>
>   DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream DOIC association--> DOC  node
>   Direction of request message for a transaction ----->
>   Direction of answer message for a transaction <-----
> <Ulrich> this depends on the point of view: one node's downstream DOIC association is another node's upstream DOIC association. </Ulrich>
> <Ulrich> The general case is:
>
> +---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                          +--------+                +--------+
> | client  |      | A1      |     | A2     |     | A3     |                          | A4     |                | server |
> | no DOIC |      | no DOIC |     | DOIC   |     | DOIC   |                          | DOIC   |                | DOIC   |
> | support |      | support |     | support|     | support|                          | support|                | support| 
> +---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                          +--------+                +--------+
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |<---DOIC association 1------------------------->|<-------DOIC association 2-->|
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |<-----------------DOIC association 3----------------------------------------->|
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
>     |----1.xxR------->|---2.xxR----->|              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |---3.xxR----->|----4.xxR----------------------->|                             |
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |--------5.xxR--------------->| 
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |<-------6.xxA----------------|
>     |                 |              |<--8.xxA------|<---7.xxA------------------------|                             |
>     |<---10.xxA-------|<--9.xxA------|              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
>     |----11.xxR------>|---12.xxR---->|              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |---13.xxR---->|-----14.xxR--------------------->|-------15.xxR--------------->|
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |<---18.xxA----|<----17.xxA----------------------|<-----16.xxA-----------------|
>     |<---20.xxA-------|<---19.xxA----|              |                                 |                             |
>     |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
> DOIC association 1 is for realm type requests; 
> DOIC association 2 is for request for which A4 selects the server
> DOIC association 3 is for host type requests
>
> 1. the client that does not support DOIC sends 1.xxR (realm type request not containing destination host) to the next hop; 1.xxR does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP
> 2. the agent A1 that does not support DOIC forwards the request to the next hop; 2.xxR still dos not contain an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
> 3. the agent A2 that supports DOIC decides to take the role of a reacting endpoint; it inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP into 3.xxR indicating support of features 1 and 2 (in this example).
> 4. agent A3, although it supports DOIC, does not take the role of a reacting endpoint (because 3.xxR contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP); it also does not take the role of a reporting endpoint since it is not configured to act as reporting endpoint for the destination realm received in 3.xxR; 4.xxR (unmodified) is sent to the next hop.
> 5. agent A4 is configured to take the role of the reporting endpoint for the realm. It therefore removes the OC-Supported-Features AVP reveived in 4.xxR and inserts its own supported features (in this example features 1 and 3) in 5.xxR. A4 also selects the server to which 5.xxR is sent.
> 6. the server (that supports DOIC e.g. features 1 and 3) returns 6.xxA including an OLR1 (host type) requesting a feature 3 specific traffic reduction (e.g. window size 20). 
> 7. A4 calculates the overall realm overload level, removes the received OLR1 and adds its own calculated realm type OLR2 (e.g. a feature 1 specific traffic reduction of 50%-loss) to 7.xxA. A4 stores OLR1 for later use.
> 8. A3 not taking any DOIC role forwards the answer unmodified.
> 9. agent A2 may remove the reveived OLR2 when sending 9.xxA. A2 stores OLR2 for later use.
> 10. A1 not supporting DOIC is transparent.
> 11. client sends a new request 11.xxR (containing destination host as learnd from 10.xxA; no OC-Supported-Features AVP included.
> 12. A1 is transparent.
> 13. A2 decides to take the role of the reacting endpoint and includes again its supported features 1 and 2 in OC-Supported-Features AVO sent within 13.xxR.
> 14. A3 is transparent
> 15. A4 is transparent for host type requests that contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.
> 16. server returns 16.xxA including a host type OLR3 requesting a feature 1 specific traffic reduction of e.g. 30%-loss.
> 17. A4 is transparent
> 18. A3 is transparent
> 19. A2 stores OLR3 for later use and may remove OLR3 when sending 19.xxA.
> 20. client receives 20.xxA.
> </Ulrich>
>
> Four scenarios must be supported:
>
>   - Scenario 1 - There is both an upstream and downstream DOIC association.
> <Ulrich> for example see A4 in the figure above </Ulrich>
>   - Scenario 2 - There is no upstream DOIC association
> <Ulrich> do you mean "There is a downstream DOIC association but no upstream DOIC association"? Not covered in the figure above. </Ulrich>
>   - Scenario 3 - There is no downstream DOIC association
> <Ulrich> do you mean "There is an upstream DOIC association but no downstream DOIC association"? for example see A2 in the figure above </Ulrich> 
>   - Scenario 4 - No DOIC association in either direction
> <Ulrich> for example see A3 in the figure above </Ulrich>
>
> Scenario 1 - Both upstream and downstream DOIC associations
>
> Request message handling:
>
> A DOC agent that receives a request that contains the OC-Supported-Features AVP must act as an endpoint for the downstream DOIC association.
> <Ulrich> NO! see A3 receiving 3.xxR or 13.xxR (this may not be scenario 1, but how does the agent know which scenario applies?)</Ulrich>
>
> If the DOC agent relays or proxies the request message then the agent must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.  The contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.  If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.
> <Ulrich>There cannot be more than one OC-Supported-Features AVPs in one request. An agent that inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP must remove the received OC-Supported-Features AVP (see A4 when sending 5.xxR). The inserted OC-Supported Features AVP shall indicate the features the inserting node supports, not more, not less</Ulrich>
>
> If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must modify the OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.  The modified OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed request message.
>
>   Note: any DOIC extension must define the changes needed to the OC-Feature-Vector AVP and any additional AVPs that need to be added to the OC-Supported-Features AVP as part of the capabilities advertisement for that feature.
>
> Question: Should there be an indication that the contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP was changed?
> <Ulrich> no. for what reason? </Ulrich>
>
> Question: Will this work when end-to-end security is introduced?  Would adding a separate OC-Supported-Features AVP be better, especially when end-to-end security is considered?
> <Ulrich> what is the issue? </Ulrich>
>
> Answer message handling:
>
> When an agent receives the  answer message that corresponds to the above request message
> <Ulrich> i.e. the request message into which the agent has inserted its OC-Supported-Features AVP </Ulrich>
> , the agent must act as the DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC association.  
>
> If the DOC agent relays or proxies the answer message then the agent must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.
> <Ulrich> OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages is an open issue </Ulrich>
>   The contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.  If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.
>
> If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent should modify the OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.  The modified OC-Supported Features AVP must be included in the relayed answer message.
>
> Scenario 2 - No downstream DOIC association with an upstream association
> <Ulrich> wasn't that scenario 3? </Ulrich>
>
> In this case a request is received that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.
>
> Request message handling:
>
> If a DOC agent receives a request that does NOT contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.  The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed/proxied request message.
>
> The agent will then become the reacting DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC association that results from the transaction.  
>
> Note: Section x.x.x defines agent behavior when it is the reacting node for a DOIC association.
>
> Answer message handling
>
> In this case the answer message will contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.  The DOC agent must store the advertised capabilities for use when the DOC agent reacts to an overload report from the upstream Diameter node.
>
> The DOC agent should remove the OC-Supported-Features AVP from the answer message before relaying/proxying the answer message.  
>
> Scenario 3 - Downstream DOC association with no upstream DOIC association
> <Ulrich> wasn't this scenario 2? </Ulrich>
>
> In this case a OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the request from the downstream Diameter entity but no OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the answer message received from the upstream Diameter entity.  In this case the agent must act as the reporting DOIC endpoint for the downstream DOIC association.
> <Ulrich> this is totally new to me. Where does this come from? If a server does not support DOIC it cannot request load reduction from a downstream agent. The downstream agent (even if it would detect the DOIC-non-support of the server) cannot request load reduction from further downstream nodes on behalf of the server </Ulrich>
>
> Request message handling:
>
> Request message handling is the same as for scenario 1.
>
> Answer message handling:
>
> If a DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that includes an upstream DOC association then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.  The generation of this OC-Supported-Features AVP must also follow the rules specified in section 5.3.2.  The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed/proxied the answer message.
>
> Scenario 4 - No upstream association and no downstream association
>
> Request message handling:
>
> The request message handling in this case is the same as scenario 2.
>
> Answer message handling:
>
> If the DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that does not include a downstream DOC association then the agent must NOT generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP.  The DOC Agent must relay/proxy the answer message with no DOIC related change.
>
> <Ulrich> the open issue seems to be: How can an agent determine which scenario is applicable? Let me try:
> An agent that does not support DOIC is always in scenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association).
> For an agent that supports DOIC:
> When receiving a request that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP the agent is in scenario 3 or 4 (no downstream DOIC association). Whether its 3 or 4 depends on whether or not an OLR is received in the corresponding answer.
> When receiving a host type request (a request that contains a Destination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP the agent is in scenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association)
> When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Destination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent is configured to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is scenario 1 or 2 (there is a downstream DOIC association). Whether its 1 or 2 depends on whether or not an OLR is received in the corresponding answer.
> When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Destination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent is configured not to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is in scenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association). </Ulrich>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">We are dealing with two
      different definitions of endpoints.&nbsp; Ulrich diagram is all wrong
      when using my definition of endpoints.&nbsp; Ulrich's diagram is
      correct when using Ulrich's definition of endpoints.<br>
      <br>
      The basic difference between the two definitions is when an agent
      becomes an endpoint.<br>
      <br>
      In my definition an agent that supports DOIC is an endpoint for
      all transactions.<br>
      <br>
      In Ulrich's definition an agent is only an endpoint if it needs to
      be either a reporting node (in the case that is is acting as a
      server front end or reporting realm overload) or a reacting node
      (when it is doing abatement for an non supporting client).<br>
      <br>
      I think that the behavior of Diameter clients and servers are the
      same for both of these definitions, but we still don't have enough
      behavior definition to say for sure.<br>
      <br>
      I'm not ready to say which approach is better, especially when
      factoring extensions to DOIC.&nbsp; Maybe we can have a discussion on
      this topic in London.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/4/14 7:43 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
      DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B1E1B@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Steve,

please find comments inline.

Regards
Ulrich

From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 12:55 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange

All,

I believe that the current DOIC Endpoint behavior definition is not sufficiently defined, especially for agents.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree. &lt;/Ulrich&gt;

There was also a change introduced in the -01 version of the draft that implies that there can be a DOIC association that goes through a DOIC enabled agent.&nbsp; This was not&nbsp; how I understood endpoints.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; same with me &lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; The original diagrams showed a DOIC agent as terminating an endpoint that came to it.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I suspect there were different assumptions that lead to clearly different interpretations.&nbsp; 

I propose that we return to the original diagrams and add the wording below on how DOC agents behave.&nbsp; One way to look at this is that DOC agents act as back-to-back DOC endpoints.&nbsp; I intentionally don't say back-to-back Diameter endpoints because this does not impact anything except the handling of DOIC related AVPs.

Note that I don't believe this requires any changes to Diameter clients or servers.&nbsp; I also don't believe this requires any changes to the contents of the DOIC related AVPs but there is an open question as to whether there is a need to indicate when a OC-Supported-Features AVP is generated or modified by an agent.

I propose to add the following section to the section on capabilities announcement.&nbsp; I'll send a separate email proposing text to section 5.5 on how DOC agents are to behave. 

Regards,

Steve

-----

5.3.1 DOC Agent handling of DOIC capability exchange.

A DOC agent is defined as a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; A Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension is not necessarily taking the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint.
It only takes the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint when receiving a request that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.
Similarily a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extensions is not necessarily taking the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint.
It only takes the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint when receiving a realm type request (not containing a destination host) that contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP while it is configured to act as a reporting DOIC endpoint for that realm. &lt;/Ulrich&gt;

A DOC node is defined as a Diameter client, Diameter server or Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension
&lt;Ulrich&gt; and decided to take the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and/or reporting DOIC endpoint &lt;/Ulrich&gt;.

An downstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between the DOIC supporting Diameter entity that sends a Diameter request message to a DOC agent and the DOC agent.

A upstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between a DOC agent and the Diameter entity to which the DOC agent sends the Diameter request message.&nbsp; The following illustrated the upstream and downstream concepts.

&nbsp; DOC node &lt;--downstream DOIC association--&gt; DOC agent &lt;--upstream DOIC association--&gt; DOC&nbsp; node
&nbsp; Direction of request message for a transaction -----&gt;
&nbsp; Direction of answer message for a transaction &lt;-----
&lt;Ulrich&gt; this depends on the point of view: one node's downstream DOIC association is another node's upstream DOIC association. &lt;/Ulrich&gt;
&lt;Ulrich&gt; The general case is:

+---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                          +--------+                +--------+
| client  |      | A1      |     | A2     |     | A3     |                          | A4     |                | server |
| no DOIC |      | no DOIC |     | DOIC   |     | DOIC   |                          | DOIC   |                | DOIC   |
| support |      | support |     | support|     | support|                          | support|                | support| 
+---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                          +--------+                +--------+
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |&lt;---DOIC association 1-------------------------&gt;|&lt;-------DOIC association 2--&gt;|
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |&lt;-----------------DOIC association 3-----------------------------------------&gt;|
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
    |----1.xxR-------&gt;|---2.xxR-----&gt;|              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |---3.xxR-----&gt;|----4.xxR-----------------------&gt;|                             |
    |                 |              |              |                                 |--------5.xxR---------------&gt;| 
    |                 |              |              |                                 |&lt;-------6.xxA----------------|
    |                 |              |&lt;--8.xxA------|&lt;---7.xxA------------------------|                             |
    |&lt;---10.xxA-------|&lt;--9.xxA------|              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
    |----11.xxR------&gt;|---12.xxR----&gt;|              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |---13.xxR----&gt;|-----14.xxR---------------------&gt;|-------15.xxR---------------&gt;|
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |&lt;---18.xxA----|&lt;----17.xxA----------------------|&lt;-----16.xxA-----------------|
    |&lt;---20.xxA-------|&lt;---19.xxA----|              |                                 |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                                 |                             |
DOIC association 1 is for realm type requests; 
DOIC association 2 is for request for which A4 selects the server
DOIC association 3 is for host type requests

1. the client that does not support DOIC sends 1.xxR (realm type request not containing destination host) to the next hop; 1.xxR does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP
2. the agent A1 that does not support DOIC forwards the request to the next hop; 2.xxR still dos not contain an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
3. the agent A2 that supports DOIC decides to take the role of a reacting endpoint; it inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP into 3.xxR indicating support of features 1 and 2 (in this example).
4. agent A3, although it supports DOIC, does not take the role of a reacting endpoint (because 3.xxR contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP); it also does not take the role of a reporting endpoint since it is not configured to act as reporting endpoint for the destination realm received in 3.xxR; 4.xxR (unmodified) is sent to the next hop.
5. agent A4 is configured to take the role of the reporting endpoint for the realm. It therefore removes the OC-Supported-Features AVP reveived in 4.xxR and inserts its own supported features (in this example features 1 and 3) in 5.xxR. A4 also selects the server to which 5.xxR is sent.
6. the server (that supports DOIC e.g. features 1 and 3) returns 6.xxA including an OLR1 (host type) requesting a feature 3 specific traffic reduction (e.g. window size 20). 
7. A4 calculates the overall realm overload level, removes the received OLR1 and adds its own calculated realm type OLR2 (e.g. a feature 1 specific traffic reduction of 50%-loss) to 7.xxA. A4 stores OLR1 for later use.
8. A3 not taking any DOIC role forwards the answer unmodified.
9. agent A2 may remove the reveived OLR2 when sending 9.xxA. A2 stores OLR2 for later use.
10. A1 not supporting DOIC is transparent.
11. client sends a new request 11.xxR (containing destination host as learnd from 10.xxA; no OC-Supported-Features AVP included.
12. A1 is transparent.
13. A2 decides to take the role of the reacting endpoint and includes again its supported features 1 and 2 in OC-Supported-Features AVO sent within 13.xxR.
14. A3 is transparent
15. A4 is transparent for host type requests that contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.
16. server returns 16.xxA including a host type OLR3 requesting a feature 1 specific traffic reduction of e.g. 30%-loss.
17. A4 is transparent
18. A3 is transparent
19. A2 stores OLR3 for later use and may remove OLR3 when sending 19.xxA.
20. client receives 20.xxA.
&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

Four scenarios must be supported:

&nbsp; - Scenario 1 - There is both an upstream and downstream DOIC association.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; for example see A4 in the figure above &lt;/Ulrich&gt;
&nbsp; - Scenario 2 - There is no upstream DOIC association
&lt;Ulrich&gt; do you mean "There is a downstream DOIC association but no upstream DOIC association"? Not covered in the figure above. &lt;/Ulrich&gt;
&nbsp; - Scenario 3 - There is no downstream DOIC association
&lt;Ulrich&gt; do you mean "There is an upstream DOIC association but no downstream DOIC association"? for example see A2 in the figure above &lt;/Ulrich&gt; 
&nbsp; - Scenario 4 - No DOIC association in either direction
&lt;Ulrich&gt; for example see A3 in the figure above &lt;/Ulrich&gt;

Scenario 1 - Both upstream and downstream DOIC associations

Request message handling:

A DOC agent that receives a request that contains the OC-Supported-Features AVP must act as an endpoint for the downstream DOIC association.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; NO! see A3 receiving 3.xxR or 13.xxR (this may not be scenario 1, but how does the agent know which scenario applies?)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the request message then the agent must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.&nbsp; The contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.&nbsp; If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.
&lt;Ulrich&gt;There cannot be more than one OC-Supported-Features AVPs in one request. An agent that inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP must remove the received OC-Supported-Features AVP (see A4 when sending 5.xxR). The inserted OC-Supported Features AVP shall indicate the features the inserting node supports, not more, not less&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must modify the OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.&nbsp; The modified OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed request message.

&nbsp; Note: any DOIC extension must define the changes needed to the OC-Feature-Vector AVP and any additional AVPs that need to be added to the OC-Supported-Features AVP as part of the capabilities advertisement for that feature.

Question: Should there be an indication that the contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP was changed?
&lt;Ulrich&gt; no. for what reason? &lt;/Ulrich&gt;

Question: Will this work when end-to-end security is introduced?&nbsp; Would adding a separate OC-Supported-Features AVP be better, especially when end-to-end security is considered?
&lt;Ulrich&gt; what is the issue? &lt;/Ulrich&gt;

Answer message handling:

When an agent receives the&nbsp; answer message that corresponds to the above request message
&lt;Ulrich&gt; i.e. the request message into which the agent has inserted its OC-Supported-Features AVP &lt;/Ulrich&gt;
, the agent must act as the DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC association.&nbsp; 

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the answer message then the agent must include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages is an open issue &lt;/Ulrich&gt;
&nbsp; The contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.&nbsp; If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent OC-Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent should modify the OC-Supported-Features AVP to indicate support for those features.&nbsp; The modified OC-Supported Features AVP must be included in the relayed answer message.

Scenario 2 - No downstream DOIC association with an upstream association
&lt;Ulrich&gt; wasn't that scenario 3? &lt;/Ulrich&gt;

In this case a request is received that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.

Request message handling:

If a DOC agent receives a request that does NOT contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.&nbsp; The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed/proxied request message.

The agent will then become the reacting DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC association that results from the transaction.&nbsp; 

Note: Section x.x.x defines agent behavior when it is the reacting node for a DOIC association.

Answer message handling

In this case the answer message will contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.&nbsp; The DOC agent must store the advertised capabilities for use when the DOC agent reacts to an overload report from the upstream Diameter node.

The DOC agent should remove the OC-Supported-Features AVP from the answer message before relaying/proxying the answer message.&nbsp; 

Scenario 3 - Downstream DOC association with no upstream DOIC association
&lt;Ulrich&gt; wasn't this scenario 2? &lt;/Ulrich&gt;

In this case a OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the request from the downstream Diameter entity but no OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the answer message received from the upstream Diameter entity.&nbsp; In this case the agent must act as the reporting DOIC endpoint for the downstream DOIC association.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; this is totally new to me. Where does this come from? If a server does not support DOIC it cannot request load reduction from a downstream agent. The downstream agent (even if it would detect the DOIC-non-support of the server) cannot request load reduction from further downstream nodes on behalf of the server &lt;/Ulrich&gt;

Request message handling:

Request message handling is the same as for scenario 1.

Answer message handling:

If a DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that includes an upstream DOC association then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.&nbsp; The generation of this OC-Supported-Features AVP must also follow the rules specified in section 5.3.2.&nbsp; The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed/proxied the answer message.

Scenario 4 - No upstream association and no downstream association

Request message handling:

The request message handling in this case is the same as scenario 2.

Answer message handling:

If the DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP for a transaction that does not include a downstream DOC association then the agent must NOT generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP.&nbsp; The DOC Agent must relay/proxy the answer message with no DOIC related change.

&lt;Ulrich&gt; the open issue seems to be: How can an agent determine which scenario is applicable? Let me try:
An agent that does not support DOIC is always in scenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association).
For an agent that supports DOIC:
When receiving a request that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP the agent is in scenario 3 or 4 (no downstream DOIC association). Whether its 3 or 4 depends on whether or not an OLR is received in the corresponding answer.
When receiving a host type request (a request that contains a Destination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP the agent is in scenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association)
When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Destination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent is configured to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is scenario 1 or 2 (there is a downstream DOIC association). Whether its 1 or 2 depends on whether or not an OLR is received in the corresponding answer.
When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Destination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent is configured not to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is in scenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association). &lt;/Ulrich&gt;






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I agree it needs to be stated in the draft.

Steve

On 2/10/14 9:44 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
>
> Hi Steve
>
>  
>
> Thanks to have summarize this topic. I agree with your various
> statements that reflect in particular my own comments.
>
>  
>
> About mandatory for the default (loss) algorithm, effectively we  need
> this for interoperability. Cannot it be stated in the draft? Future
> RFCs will have to be compatible with this .
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
>  
>
> JJacques   
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Steve Donovan
> *Envoyé :* lundi 10 février 2014 16:08
> *À :* dime@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer
> messages
>
>  
>
> I'll attempt to summarize where we are on this.  If this is agreed to
> then the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.  Some of
> this is already in the draft, some of it will require changes.
>
> - The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to
> include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change
> required here.
>
> - A reporting node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be
> sent to a reacting node from the set of abatement algorithms included
> in the OC-Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.
>
> - If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no
> OC-Supported-Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the
> reacting node must be loss.
>
> - The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with
> the loss algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>
> - If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm
> other then loss, the reacting node must include the
> OC-Supported-Features AVP with a single algorithm indicated in the
> OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>
> - New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing
> OC-OLR AVP.  The new algorithms may also create a new overload report
> AVP if that makes the most sense.
>
> - The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement
> algorithm.  Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes
> the mandatory to implement algorithm.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     -----Message d'origine-----
>
>     De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>     Envoyé : lundi 10 février 2014 12:24
>
>     À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>
>     Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>      
>
>         Hi Jouni,
>
>          
>
>             As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>
>          
>
>         Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>
>         IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>
>         abatement algorithm.. 
>
>          
>
>         [LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR sent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could have is "use either one or the other".
>
>      
>
>     This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node
>
>     announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the
>
>     sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.
>
>      
>
>     [LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector MAY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the common algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.
>
>      
>
>         The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with another algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given OLR.
>
>      
>
>     I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..
>
>      
>
>     [LM] I was not proposing such idea :)
>
>      
>
>     - Jouni
>
>      
>
>          
>
>          
>
>             It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>          
>
>         It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>
>          
>
>         [LM] Right. No issue here.
>
>          
>
>         -----Message d'origine-----
>
>         De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>         Envoyé : vendredi 7 février 2014 11:04
>
>         À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>
>         Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>          
>
>             I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to solve it is not the correct one.
>
>          
>
>         Agree.
>
>          
>
>             The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>
>          
>
>         The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.
>
>          
>
>             But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the abatement to perform.
>
>          
>
>         My intention was always allow:
>
>          
>
>          client announces  ABC
>
>          server supports    BCD
>
>          server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
>
>          alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies
>
>          
>
>             As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>
>          
>
>         Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>
>         IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>
>         abatement algorithm.. 
>
>          
>
>             It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>          
>
>         It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>
>          
>
>         - Jouni
>
>          
>
>              
>
>             Lionel 
>
>              
>
>             -----Message d'origine-----
>
>             De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org] 
>
>             Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:48
>
>             À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>
>             Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>
>              
>
>             #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>
>              
>
>             According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in
>
>             the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
>
>             in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reacting
>
>             DOIC endpoint.
>
>             The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can do
>
>             with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
>
>             reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
>
>             messages.
>
>             Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
>
>             A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other
>
>             feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
>
>             reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
>
>             support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receiving
>
>             an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>
>              
>
>             a) There is no overload
>
>             b) DOIC is not supported
>
>              
>
>             The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these
>
>             two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
>
>             The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>
>               If there is no single matching
>
>               capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>
>               DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>
>               messages with this specific reacting node.
>
>              
>
>             This however is inconsistent.
>
>             The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
>
>             recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
>
>             Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a different
>
>             path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
>
>             supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the role
>
>             of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since
>
>             the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
>
>             Supported-Features AVPs.
>
>             In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-ietf-
>
>             dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
>
>             drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
>
>             describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>
>              
>
>             -- 
>
>             --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>
>             Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>
>                Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
>
>             Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
>
>             Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
>
>             Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
>
>             --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>
>              
>
>             Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30> <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
>
>             dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/> <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>              
>
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>
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>
>             Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>              
>
>             This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>
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>
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>
>              
>
>             _______________________________________________
>
>             DiME mailing list
>
>             DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>          
>
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>
>         pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>
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>
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>
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>
>          
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>      
>
>     Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>
>     pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>
>     a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>
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>
>      
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>
>     they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>
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>
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>
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>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I agree it needs to be
      stated in the draft.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 9:44 AM, TROTTIN,
      JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
            Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks
            to have summarize this topic. I agree with your various
            statements that reflect in particular my own comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">About
            mandatory for the default (loss) algorithm, effectively we
            &nbsp;need this for interoperability. Cannot it be stated in the
            draft? Future RFCs will have to be compatible with this .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
            &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="FR">014 16:08<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #30:
                OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I'll attempt
          to summarize where we are on this.&nbsp; If this is agreed to then
          the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.&nbsp; Some of
          this is already in the draft, some of it will require changes.<br>
          <br>
          - The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node
          to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages -
          No change required here.<br>
          <br>
          <span style="font-family:Times">- A reporting node must choose
            the overload abatement algorithm to be sent to a reacting
            node from the set of abatement algorithms included in the
            OC-Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.<br>
            <br>
          </span>- If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there
          is no OC-Supported-Features AVP then the abatement algorithm
          used by the reacting node must be loss.<br>
          <br>
          - The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP
          with the loss algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector
          AVP.<br>
          <br>
          - If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an
          algorithm other then loss, the reacting node must include the
          OC-Supported-Features AVP with a single algorithm indicated in
          the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
          <br>
          <br>
          - New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the
          existing OC-OLR AVP.&nbsp; The new algorithms may also create a new
          overload report AVP if that makes the most sense.<br>
          <br>
          - The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to
          implement algorithm.&nbsp; Or it will be until a new RFC is
          published that changes the mandatory to implement algorithm.<br>
          <br>
          Steve <o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, <a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
              lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 12:24<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&Agrave;&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Cc&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Hi Jouni,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>abatement algorithm.. <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>[LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR sent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could have is "use either one or the other".<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>[LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector MAY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the common algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with another algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given OLR.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>[LM] I was not proposing such idea :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>It is already today if you only support the default, right.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>[LM] Right. No issue here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>De : Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 7 f&eacute;vrier 2014 11:04<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to solve it is not the correct one.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the abatement to perform.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>My intention was always allow:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre> client announces&nbsp; ABC<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> server supports&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BCD<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> server announced only&nbsp; e.g. C since it is common<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>abatement algorithm.. <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>It is already today if you only support the default, right.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>Lionel <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:48<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Cc : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reacting<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>DOIC endpoint.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>The author of this document believes that&nbsp; the best a reacting node can do<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>messages.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO&nbsp; by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receiving<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>a) There is no overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>b) DOIC is not supported<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>The -01 draft says in&nbsp; clause 4.1:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp; If there is no single matching<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp; capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp; DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp; messages with this specific reacting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>This however is inconsistent.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a different<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the role<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Supported-Features AVPs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within&nbsp; draft-ietf-<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>dime-ovli&nbsp; (i.e. never, since extensions will&nbsp; be defined in other<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli&nbsp; to mandate or even<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>--------------------------------------+--------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Reporter:&nbsp; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Owner:&nbsp; Ulrich Wiehe<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp; defect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Status:&nbsp; new<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Priority:&nbsp; major&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Milestone:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Component:&nbsp; draft-docdt-dime-ovli&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Version:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Severity:&nbsp; Active WG Document&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Keywords:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>--------------------------------------+--------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>Ticket URL: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>dime <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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              <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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              <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
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              <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>>> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>>>=20
>>> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
>>> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing =
overload
>>> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement =
algorithm.
>>> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
>>> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not =
make
>>> sense for all future ones.)
>>=20
>> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
>> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending =
the
>> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>>=20
>=20
> I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two =
reasons:
>=20
> 1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific =
to algorithms that use reduction percentage.)
>=20
> 2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes =
semantically identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This =
allows a simpler implementation.
>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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I agree with both Maria Cruz and Nirav. :-)

I suggest that we have wording saying the recommended approach is to
include the overload report in all response messages for the reasons
listed by Maria Cruz. 

I also suggest that we include Nirav's proposal that if a reporting node
knows that a reacting node has already received an overload report then
it may choose to not send it again.  I don't think we need to including
anything about how the reporting node knows but we should include
wording about networks architectures that make it difficult to know. 
The case of agents acting as reacting nodes for non supporting clients
being one example.

We also need to make sure that the recommended approach is not precluded
by Nirav's proposal.

I propose the following normative wording, which can be supplemented by
Maria Cruz's reasons for recommending that the overload report is always
included.

-----

A reporting node MUST ensure that all reacting nodes receive new
overload reports.

It is recommended that a reporting node include overload reports in all
answer messages sent to reacting nodes. 

Note - the reporting node may also include the overload report in answer
messages sent to non reacting nodes if that is more efficient.  The
overload report will just be ignored by a Diameter node that does not
support DOIC.

A reporting node MAY choose to not send an overload report to a reacting
node if it can guarantee that the reacting node already has received the
overload report.

Note - the only sure way, without proprietary mechanisms, to know that a
reacting node has received an overload report is when the reacting node
is a client and there is no agent between the client and the reporting node.


On 2/10/14 3:52 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Hello Nirav,
>
> Any solution should balance different factors, efficiency could be discussed from different perspectives, but first we need to assure the mechanism we are defining is providing valid OLR to reacting nodes.
>
> Your proposed text  
> " Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP."
>
> If the reporting is not aware about whether or not overload report is provided to the reacting node, and it decides (since it is a "may") to do not send the OLR again, then overload mitigation mechanism will not work in case OLR was not properly received by corresponding potential reacting nodes. And we need to note that "reacting nodes" could be not only the client, but ANY agent used for routing (not only when the agent is providing service to a Realm, but when it is reacting on behalf of a non-supporting client). 
> Then, on one hand it is not simple to know when reacting nodes have valid OLR info (as explained below), but if OLR is not sent again (as per your proposed "may") then one or multiple reacting nodes do not have the required OLR, then overload mitigation will not work.
>
> Therefore, in my opinion, the simplest way to provide required information is to provide OLR in ALL answers.
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com] 
> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 10:42
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> But Maria-Cruz,
>
> How can we say that "including the OLR in all the answer messages is simple and efficient?"
> It is simple for sure but not efficient. 
>
> A slightly different wording from what I proposed earlier is, When the reporting node has a new overload report that needs to be provided to a reacting node (by updating the earlier provided overload report or by providing the overload report for the first time), it shall include OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP, towards the corresponding reacting node. Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:03 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> Nirav, all,
>
> I think we should define an accurate and robust solution, as efficient and simple as possible.
> I understand your proposal as a pure "may", but leaving it up to implementation does not assure reacting node has valid OLR information, what is basic for this mechanism to work. 
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]
> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 10:12
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> Maria-Cruz,
>
> I fully agree with you on "sending OLR in ALL answers has some important advantages".
> And we are not trying to prevent it - at least that is my intention. 
> But the main question is, are we trying to prevent any other possible implementation, which may be smarter and can avoid including redundant OLR in all the answer message?
>
> Most probably, the very first implementation of overload control will include OLR in all the answer messages.
> But at the same time, I do not want to restrict the developers which can come up with some nice tweaks and tricks to avoid sending the same information in every message. And this is where we need to be careful and avoid putting such restrictions in protocol definition. 
> What do you think?
>
> This also the reason I was suggesting loose description of when to include OLR (from the reporting node point of view).
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 8:57 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> Hello Ulrich, Nirav,
>
> I agree with Ulrich that the text provided by Nirav is just a MAY, and whether or not the server sends an OLR in all answers shall not be just a MAY.
>
> On the other hand, criteria provided by Ulrich on when OLR has to be sent requires the server has some knowledge:
> a) the reporting node knows that the reacting node has already got the latest OLR
> b) the reporting node is not overloaded (i.d. does not want a throttling) and knows that the reacting node has got an OLR that will soon expire
> c) otherwise
>
> Reporting node must have some knowledge about OLR reception/status in reacting node. How does server acquire this knowledge? 
> Take into account as well that a "reacting" node may be both an Agent (in case it provides service to a realm or acting on behalf of a non-supporting client)  and a Client. In the case of Agents, in fact the Server may not even know if this is going to act as a reacting node or just transparently, in fact, the server does not need to have any knowledge about what agents in the chain to the final Client.
>
> Therefore, I definitely think that sending OLR in ALL answers has some important advantages:
> -	state-less implementation (transaction or session) is simpler,
> -	the server does not need to determine whether or not to send an OL to a reacting node
> -	the server does not need to bother whether an reacting node has already received an OLR or whether this OLR is still valid (has not expired).
> -	sending an additional AVP is not processing consuming, in comparison with required above checks (if this is not sent). 
> 	In fact, in an overload situation, the easiest and least complex is to send information out to all affected/applicable nodes, 
> 	and the latter should take care to take appropriate actions  
> -	more robust solution, as no need to cater for all the checks on the need to send information,  for situations where an answer message is lost,  â€¦
>
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 10:59
> To: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); ext lionel.morand@orange.com; ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> Nirav,
>
> I'm afraid your proposed text does not reflect the intention.
>
> "when it wants to provide/update....it shall include..." translates to "...it may include...".
>
> "in other cases" in the given context translates to "when it does not want to provide/update..."
>
>
> We have the following cases:
> a) the reporting node knows that the reacting node has already got the latest OLR
> b) the reporting node is not overloaded (i.d. does not want a throttling) and knows that the reacting node has got an OLR that will soon expire
> c) otherwise
>
> in case a) the reporting node may or may not replay the OLR in case b) the reporting node may or may not upddate the reacting node with the latest OLR in case c) the reporting node MUST include the OLR in the answer (the reporting node does not know whether this is a replay or an update)
>
> Ulrich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:49 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext lionel.morand@orange.com; ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> Ulrich,
>
> It seems we all are on same page but probably the proposed wording below is not the best.
> How about the following.
>
> When the reporting node wants to provide new overload report or wants to update the earlier provided overload report towards a reacting node, it shall include OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP, towards the corresponding reacting node. Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 3:57 PM
> To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Nirav Salot (nsalot); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> Nirav, Lionel,
>
> I can understand Nirav's concern (although violating REQ10) and hop it is addressed by the modified principle 2':
>
> 2'. the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MAY decide not to return an OLR in response to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP if it is aware that the reacting node already has got reasonable overload control information (e.g. the latest OLR, which may be an OLR requesting traffic reduction or an OLR indicating "no overload", or an old  but soon expiring OLR when the reporting node is not overloaded); otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
>
> I don't agree with Lionels do-what-you-want approach. Overload control will not work when we allow the reporting node not to update reacting nodes, which are not (sufficiantly) aware of the current overload status, with up to date OLRs.
>
> Ulrich  
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 10:20 AM
> To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Nirav Salot (nsalot) EnvoyÃ© : jeudi 6 fÃ©vrier 2014 10:08 Ã€ : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> Ulrich,
>
> I am not sure about forcing this behavior on reporting node "otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP."
> The reporting node may simply not include OLR assuming that the earlier provided OLR will expire and the reacting node will stop throttling the traffic.
>
> [LM] Agree. In other words, it is not deemed required for the default mechanism described in this draft. How and when the reporting node decides to include the OLR in the answer may depend on the application or on the implementation. At least, it is my current understanding.
>
> As we had discussed earlier, there is no need for the reporting node to explicitly stop throttling at each reacting node at the same time. In other words, the reporting node can allow the natural expiry of the OLR to facilitate slow ramp of the signaling traffic towards it.
>
> [LM] Agree
>
> There may be other cases, e.g. when the reporting node knows that the last overload situation ended long time back in the past, there is no need for it to include OLR if currently there is no overload condition.
>
> [LM] Agree
>
> Rest of the principles below are fine with me.
>
> [LM] Agree
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 2:23 PM
> To: ext Steve Donovan; Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> Actually we seem to agree on two principles:
> 1. Lack of OLR means "no change"
> 2. the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MAY decide not to return an OLR in response to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP if it is aware that the reacting node already has got the latest OLR (which may be an OLR requesting traffic reduction or an OLR indicating "no overload"); otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
>
> Can people please confirm.
>
> Ulrich
>
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:35 PM
> To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
> Agreed.  To restate -- lack of an overload report does not change the current overload state for the host or realm.  If there is a currently active overload report then it continues to apply until it either times out or is explicitly changed with a new overload report.  If there is no currently active overload report then lack of an overload report implies there is no overload for the host and realm.
>
> Steve
> On 2/5/14 9:19 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
> I agree with Steve except the part "shouldnâ€™t lack of OLR be interpreted as not overloaded?"
>  
> We had some discussion sometime back and thought that it is reasonable to not mandate the server to include the OLR in every answer message. E.g. when the server is capable of tracking what is sent to which client and hence wants to avoid sending information which is redundant. But this is optional implementation and at the same time need not be prohibited from protocol point of view.
>  
> So basically, the lack of OLR should not affect the previously received OLR at the reacting node. The reacting node can continue to react based on older OLR until the expiry of the validity-period or when the explicit OLR with "0" overload-metric is received.
> In my view, this allows for flexible implementation at the reporting node and sound handling of OLR at the reacting node.
>  
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>  
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 8:00 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>  
> inline
> On 2/5/14 7:57 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Ok then let's state that reporting nodes MUST insert an OC-OLR AVP in all answer messages that correspond to request messages which contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP (even when no load reduction is requested).
> SRD> Why in every answer message?  Shouldn't lack of an OLR be interpreted as not overloaded?
>
>
>  
>  
> Other criteria like REQ18 or REQ13 do not seem to matter.
> SRD> Requiring an overload report in every answer does directly break REQ13, but requiring an overloaded node to look for an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every message is also substantial additional work, potentially more expensive than inserting OLRs.
>
>
>  
>  
> For my clarification: I guess that the reacting node is not required to process every single OLR received (most will be replays anyway). What would be the procedure in the reacting node in order to minimize processing of replayed OLRs and at the same time minimize the risk too miss a new OLR?
> SRD> That is the purpose of the sequence number.
>
>
>  
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:27 AM
> To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>  
> I share the same opinion as Lionel.
>  
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 9:07 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>  
> I understand that the real concern is when the reporting node DOES NOT insert the OLR in every answer. 
> So the options would be:
> 1- OC-OLR AVP in every answer
> 2- OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every request + OC-OLR AVP in some answer when the current throttling performed by the client needs to be updated.
>  
> If there is no other criterion, the option 1 seems the best approach.
>  
> Lionel
>  
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> EnvoyÃ© : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:49
> Ã€ : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>  
> #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>  
>  It has been proposed to define an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP that is  to be included by the reacting DOIC endpoint in request messages that  survived a throttling. This AVP would indicate the Sequence-Number
>  (TimeStamp) of the OLR according to which the throttling (which was
>  survived) is performed. Absence of this AVP indicates that currently no  throttling is performed.  Reporting DOIC endpoints may use this  information in order to detect whether there is a need to update the  reacting DOIC endpoint with the latest OLR.
>  Absence of this feedback mechanism would result in the need for the  reporting node to send OC-OLR AVPs in every answer as the reporting DOIC  endpoint cannot know whether the reacting DOIC endpoint is actually doing  the right thing with regard to throttling/not throttling.
>  The feedback mechanism improves robustness as it allows the reporting DOIC  endpoint to detect and correct inappropriate throttling by the reacting  DOIC endpoint (caused by whatever reason).
>  The feedback mechanism also allows to address REQ 18 from RFC 7068.
>  In summary it is proposed to define the OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP to  be used in request messages that survived a throttling.
>  
>  
>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I agree with both Maria
      Cruz and Nirav. :-)<br>
      <br>
      I suggest that we have wording saying the recommended approach is
      to include the overload report in all response messages for the
      reasons listed by Maria Cruz.Â  <br>
      <br>
      I also suggest that we include Nirav's proposal that if a
      reporting node knows that a reacting node has already received an
      overload report then it may choose to not send it again.Â  I don't
      think we need to including anything about how the reporting node
      knows but we should include wording about networks architectures
      that make it difficult to know.Â  The case of agents acting as
      reacting nodes for non supporting clients being one example.<br>
    </font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
        Roman, Times, serif">We also need to make sure that the
        recommended approach is not precluded by Nirav's proposal.<br>
        <br>
        I propose the following normative wording, which can be
        supplemented by Maria Cruz's reasons for recommending that the
        overload report is always included.<br>
        <br>
        -----<br>
        <br>
        A reporting node MUST ensure that all reacting nodes receive new
        overload reports.<br>
        <br>
        It is recommended that a reporting node include overload reports
        in all answer messages sent to reacting nodes.Â  <br>
        <br>
        Note - the reporting node may also include the overload report
        in answer messages sent to non reacting nodes if that is more
        efficient.Â  The overload report will just be ignored by a
        Diameter node that does not support DOIC.<br>
        <br>
        A reporting node MAY choose to not send an overload report to a
        reacting node if it can guarantee that the reacting node already
        has received the overload report.<br>
        <br>
        Note - the only sure way, without proprietary mechanisms, to
        know that a reacting node has received an overload report is
        when the reacting node is a client and there is no agent between
        the client and the reporting node.<br>
        <br>
      </font><br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 3:52 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772718@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hello Nirav,

Any solution should balance different factors, efficiency could be discussed from different perspectives, but first we need to assure the mechanism we are defining is providing valid OLR to reacting nodes.

Your proposed text  
" Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP."

If the reporting is not aware about whether or not overload report is provided to the reacting node, and it decides (since it is a "may") to do not send the OLR again, then overload mitigation mechanism will not work in case OLR was not properly received by corresponding potential reacting nodes. And we need to note that "reacting nodes" could be not only the client, but ANY agent used for routing (not only when the agent is providing service to a Realm, but when it is reacting on behalf of a non-supporting client). 
Then, on one hand it is not simple to know when reacting nodes have valid OLR info (as explained below), but if OLR is not sent again (as per your proposed "may") then one or multiple reacting nodes do not have the required OLR, then overload mitigation will not work.

Therefore, in my opinion, the simplest way to provide required information is to provide OLR in ALL answers.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Nirav Salot (nsalot) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsalot@cisco.com">mailto:nsalot@cisco.com</a>] 
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 10:42
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

But Maria-Cruz,

How can we say that "including the OLR in all the answer messages is simple and efficient?"
It is simple for sure but not efficient. 

A slightly different wording from what I proposed earlier is, When the reporting node has a new overload report that needs to be provided to a reacting node (by updating the earlier provided overload report or by providing the overload report for the first time), it shall include OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP, towards the corresponding reacting node. Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:03 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

Nirav, all,

I think we should define an accurate and robust solution, as efficient and simple as possible.
I understand your proposal as a pure "may", but leaving it up to implementation does not assure reacting node has valid OLR information, what is basic for this mechanism to work. 

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Nirav Salot (nsalot) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsalot@cisco.com">mailto:nsalot@cisco.com</a>]
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 10:12
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

Maria-Cruz,

I fully agree with you on "sending OLR in ALL answers has some important advantages".
And we are not trying to prevent it - at least that is my intention. 
But the main question is, are we trying to prevent any other possible implementation, which may be smarter and can avoid including redundant OLR in all the answer message?

Most probably, the very first implementation of overload control will include OLR in all the answer messages.
But at the same time, I do not want to restrict the developers which can come up with some nice tweaks and tricks to avoid sending the same information in every message. And this is where we need to be careful and avoid putting such restrictions in protocol definition. 
What do you think?

This also the reason I was suggesting loose description of when to include OLR (from the reporting node point of view).

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 8:57 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

Hello Ulrich, Nirav,

I agree with Ulrich that the text provided by Nirav is just a MAY, and whether or not the server sends an OLR in all answers shall not be just a MAY.

On the other hand, criteria provided by Ulrich on when OLR has to be sent requires the server has some knowledge:
a) the reporting node knows that the reacting node has already got the latest OLR
b) the reporting node is not overloaded (i.d. does not want a throttling) and knows that the reacting node has got an OLR that will soon expire
c) otherwise

Reporting node must have some knowledge about OLR reception/status in reacting node. How does server acquire this knowledge? 
Take into account as well that a "reacting" node may be both an Agent (in case it provides service to a realm or acting on behalf of a non-supporting client)  and a Client. In the case of Agents, in fact the Server may not even know if this is going to act as a reacting node or just transparently, in fact, the server does not need to have any knowledge about what agents in the chain to the final Client.

Therefore, I definitely think that sending OLR in ALL answers has some important advantages:
-	state-less implementation (transaction or session) is simpler,
-	the server does not need to determine whether or not to send an OL to a reacting node
-	the server does not need to bother whether an reacting node has already received an OLR or whether this OLR is still valid (has not expired).
-	sending an additional AVP is not processing consuming, in comparison with required above checks (if this is not sent). 
	In fact, in an overload situation, the easiest and least complex is to send information out to all affected/applicable nodes, 
	and the latter should take care to take appropriate actions  
-	more robust solution, as no need to cater for all the checks on the need to send information,  for situations where an answer message is lost,  â€¦


Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 10:59
To: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; ext Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

Nirav,

I'm afraid your proposed text does not reflect the intention.

"when it wants to provide/update....it shall include..." translates to "...it may include...".

"in other cases" in the given context translates to "when it does not want to provide/update..."


We have the following cases:
a) the reporting node knows that the reacting node has already got the latest OLR
b) the reporting node is not overloaded (i.d. does not want a throttling) and knows that the reacting node has got an OLR that will soon expire
c) otherwise

in case a) the reporting node may or may not replay the OLR in case b) the reporting node may or may not upddate the reacting node with the latest OLR in case c) the reporting node MUST include the OLR in the answer (the reporting node does not know whether this is a replay or an update)

Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsalot@cisco.com">mailto:nsalot@cisco.com</a>]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:49 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; ext Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

Ulrich,

It seems we all are on same page but probably the proposed wording below is not the best.
How about the following.

When the reporting node wants to provide new overload report or wants to update the earlier provided overload report towards a reacting node, it shall include OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP, towards the corresponding reacting node. Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 3:57 PM
To: ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Nirav Salot (nsalot); ext Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

Nirav, Lionel,

I can understand Nirav's concern (although violating REQ10) and hop it is addressed by the modified principle 2':

2'. the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MAY decide not to return an OLR in response to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP if it is aware that the reacting node already has got reasonable overload control information (e.g. the latest OLR, which may be an OLR requesting traffic reduction or an OLR indicating "no overload", or an old  but soon expiring OLR when the reporting node is not overloaded); otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.

I don't agree with Lionels do-what-you-want approach. Overload control will not work when we allow the reporting node not to update reacting nodes, which are not (sufficiantly) aware of the current overload status, with up to date OLRs.

Ulrich  



-----Original Message-----
From: ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com</a>]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 10:20 AM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling



-----Message d'origine-----
DeÂ : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Nirav Salot (nsalot) EnvoyÃ©Â : jeudi 6 fÃ©vrier 2014 10:08 Ã€Â : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> ObjetÂ : Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

Ulrich,

I am not sure about forcing this behavior on reporting node "otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP."
The reporting node may simply not include OLR assuming that the earlier provided OLR will expire and the reacting node will stop throttling the traffic.

[LM] Agree. In other words, it is not deemed required for the default mechanism described in this draft. How and when the reporting node decides to include the OLR in the answer may depend on the application or on the implementation. At least, it is my current understanding.

As we had discussed earlier, there is no need for the reporting node to explicitly stop throttling at each reacting node at the same time. In other words, the reporting node can allow the natural expiry of the OLR to facilitate slow ramp of the signaling traffic towards it.

[LM] Agree

There may be other cases, e.g. when the reporting node knows that the last overload situation ended long time back in the past, there is no need for it to include OLR if currently there is no overload condition.

[LM] Agree

Rest of the principles below are fine with me.

[LM] Agree

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 2:23 PM
To: ext Steve Donovan; Nirav Salot (nsalot); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

Actually we seem to agree on two principles:
1. Lack of OLR means "no change"
2. the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MAY decide not to return an OLR in response to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP if it is aware that the reacting node already has got the latest OLR (which may be an OLR requesting traffic reduction or an OLR indicating "no overload"); otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.

Can people please confirm.

Ulrich

From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:35 PM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling

Agreed.Â  To restate -- lack of an overload report does not change the current overload state for the host or realm.Â  If there is a currently active overload report then it continues to apply until it either times out or is explicitly changed with a new overload report.Â  If there is no currently active overload report then lack of an overload report implies there is no overload for the host and realm.

Steve
On 2/5/14 9:19 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
I agree with Steve except the part "shouldnâ€™t lack of OLR be interpreted as not overloaded?"
Â 
We had some discussion sometime back and thought that it is reasonable to not mandate the server to include the OLR in every answer message. E.g. when the server is capable of tracking what is sent to which client and hence wants to avoid sending information which is redundant. But this is optional implementation and at the same time need not be prohibited from protocol point of view.
Â 
So basically, the lack of OLR should not affect the previously received OLR at the reacting node. The reacting node can continue to react based on older OLR until the expiry of the validity-period or when the explicit OLR with "0" overload-metric is received.
In my view, this allows for flexible implementation at the reporting node and sound handling of OLR at the reacting node.
Â 
Regards,
Nirav.
Â 
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 8:00 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
Â 
inline
On 2/5/14 7:57 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ok then let's state that reporting nodes MUST insert an OC-OLR AVP in all answer messages that correspond to request messages which contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP (even when no load reduction is requested).
SRD&gt; Why in every answer message?Â  Shouldn't lack of an OLR be interpreted as not overloaded?


Â 
Â 
Other criteria like REQ18 or REQ13 do not seem to matter.
SRD&gt; Requiring an overload report in every answer does directly break REQ13, but requiring an overloaded node to look for an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every message is also substantial additional work, potentially more expensive than inserting OLRs.


Â 
Â 
For my clarification: I guess that the reacting node is not required to process every single OLR received (most will be replays anyway). What would be the procedure in the reacting node in order to minimize processing of replayed OLRs and at the same time minimize the risk too miss a new OLR?
SRD&gt; That is the purpose of the sequence number.


Â 
Â 
Â 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:27 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
Â 
I share the same opinion as Lionel.
Â 
Regards,
Nirav.
Â 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 9:07 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
Â 
I understand that the real concern is when the reporting node DOES NOT insert the OLR in every answer. 
So the options would be:
1- OC-OLR AVP in every answer
2- OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every request + OC-OLR AVP in some answer when the current throttling performed by the client needs to be updated.
Â 
If there is no other criterion, the option 1 seems the best approach.
Â 
Lionel
Â 
-----Message d'origine-----
DeÂ : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]
EnvoyÃ©Â : mardi 4 fÃ©vrier 2014 09:49
Ã€Â : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
CcÂ : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
ObjetÂ : [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
Â 
#31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
Â 
 It has been proposed to define an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP that isÂ  to be included by the reacting DOIC endpoint in request messages thatÂ  survived a throttling. This AVP would indicate the Sequence-Number
 (TimeStamp) of the OLR according to which the throttling (which was
 survived) is performed. Absence of this AVP indicates that currently noÂ  throttling is performed.Â  Reporting DOIC endpoints may use thisÂ  information in order to detect whether there is a need to update theÂ  reacting DOIC endpoint with the latest OLR.
 Absence of this feedback mechanism would result in the need for theÂ  reporting node to send OC-OLR AVPs in every answer as the reporting DOICÂ  endpoint cannot know whether the reacting DOIC endpoint is actually doingÂ  the right thing with regard to throttling/not throttling.
 The feedback mechanism improves robustness as it allows the reporting DOICÂ  endpoint to detect and correct inappropriate throttling by the reactingÂ  DOIC endpoint (caused by whatever reason).
 The feedback mechanism also allows to address REQ 18 from RFC 7068.
 In summary it is proposed to define the OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP toÂ  be used in request messages that survived a throttling.
Â 
Â 

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</pre>
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    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overload reports expire
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On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:16 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:

>=20
> My reasoning for explicit termination was that knowing the =
implementation
> folks they will let overload conditions expire unless advised =
otherwise.
> And having unnecessary stuff hanging around waiting for a cleanup is =
not
> a good thing in general. But I am open here for other options..
>=20

I think it's reasonable to say that a reporting node should terminate an =
overload condition in a timely manner. But if it's about to expire =
anyway, then expiration might be just as timely as an explicit report.=20=


And of course, the definition of "timely" is somewhat a matter of =
policy. For example, I can imagine an deployment that had a large number =
of clients using fairly short validity durations, and _never_ explicitly =
signaling an end to an overload condition. This adds a bit of a =
"slow-start" to the recovery, since different clients will expire the =
overload condition at different times, and the load will ramp up =
gradually. I don't see anything wrong with that. Of course, it wouldn't =
work if one chose long validity durations, or if the signaling of =
overload to different clients happened in close synchronization.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:

>=20
> Ben,
>=20
> Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>>>>=20
>>>> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want =
to
>>>> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing =
overload
>>>> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement =
algorithm.
>>>> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
>>>> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not =
make
>>>> sense for all future ones.)
>>>=20
>>> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the =
reason.
>>> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending =
the
>>> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two =
reasons:
>>=20
>> 1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific =
to algorithms that use reduction percentage.)
>>=20
>> 2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes =
semantically identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This =
allows a simpler implementation.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview
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I think the way to handle this issue in the issue tracker is to assign
it to one of the authors and that author would then be responsible for
generating overview text.

Steve

On 2/8/14 11:02 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> Hi Ben,
>
> Any proposal?
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
> Envoyé : vendredi 7 février 2014 21:55
> À : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview
>
> #41: Need better overview
>
>  The overview is short on explanation. We need a high level, non-normative
>  "how it works" description of the mechanism, including roles,
>  responsibilities, associations, and information flows. This doesn't need
>  too much detail (e.g. message and AVP definitions belong elsewhere.)
>
>  Some of the information in the endpoint architecture section would be
>  better off here.
>


--------------040501080404040709090903
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<html>
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I think the way to handle
      this issue in the issue tracker is to assign it to one of the
      authors and that author would then be responsible for generating
      overview text.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/8/14 11:02 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:8933_1391878974_52F6633D_8933_14099_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49395B@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hi Ben,

Any proposal?

Regards,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: vendredi 7 f&eacute;vrier 2014 21:55
&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>
Cc&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview

#41: Need better overview

 The overview is short on explanation. We need a high level, non-normative
 "how it works" description of the mechanism, including roles,
 responsibilities, associations, and information flows. This doesn't need
 too much detail (e.g. message and AVP definitions belong elsewhere.)

 Some of the information in the endpoint architecture section would be
 better off here.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------040501080404040709090903--

From ben@nostrum.com  Mon Feb 10 08:39:13 2014
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I can volunteer for that, with the caveat that it probably won't happen =
before the IETF89 draft deadline.

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:37 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> I think the way to handle this issue in the issue tracker is to assign =
it to one of the authors and that author would then be responsible for =
generating overview text.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/8/14 11:02 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> Hi Ben,
>>=20
>> Any proposal?
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [
>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>> ] De la part de dime issue tracker
>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 21:55
>> =C0 :=20
>> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
>>=20
>> Cc :=20
>> dime@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview
>>=20
>> #41: Need better overview
>>=20
>>  The overview is short on explanation. We need a high level, =
non-normative
>>  "how it works" description of the mechanism, including roles,
>>  responsibilities, associations, and information flows. This doesn't =
need
>>  too much detail (e.g. message and AVP definitions belong elsewhere.)
>>=20
>>  Some of the information in the endpoint architecture section would =
be
>>  better off here.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


From srdonovan@usdonovans.com  Mon Feb 10 08:39:16 2014
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:39:11 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #39: Definition of Diameter Routing
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I agree with Ben, I don't see the need to include this definition.

Steve

On 2/7/14 2:41 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #39: Definition of Diameter Routing
>
>  Do we need this definition? Diameter routing should be fully defined by
>  the base specification.
>
>  But if we do, I think the phrase "non-adjacent nodes" in the first
>  sentence is misleading. Destination-Realm is also used to route between
>  adjacent nodes, at least until you reach the node responsible for the
>  ream+application. We should also include Application-Id.
>


--------------090304080400090909040708
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I agree with Ben, I don't
      see the need to include this definition.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/14 2:41 PM, dime issue tracker
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:057.f065e75bab4329d8222a3e0f41765194@trac.tools.ietf.org"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">#39: Definition of Diameter Routing

 Do we need this definition? Diameter routing should be fully defined by
 the base specification.

 But if we do, I think the phrase "non-adjacent nodes" in the first
 sentence is misleading. Destination-Realm is also used to route between
 adjacent nodes, at least until you reach the node responsible for the
 ream+application. We should also include Application-Id.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------090304080400090909040708--

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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From srdonovan@usdonovans.com  Mon Feb 10 08:43:27 2014
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:43:18 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be	ignored
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I would think this would be a general policy.

Steve

On 2/8/14 10:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> Hi Ben,
>
> OK with this statement.
> But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
> Envoyé : vendredi 7 février 2014 23:05
> À : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
>
> #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
>
>  Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are
>  interpreted as 100."
>
>  An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates
>  incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe
>  to assume we know what the sender really intended.
>


--------------010309000201010405070803
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I would think this would
      be a general policy.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/8/14 10:37 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:10919_1391877435_52F65D3B_10919_16935_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4938A3@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hi Ben,

OK with this statement.
But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: vendredi 7 f&eacute;vrier 2014 23:05
&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>
Cc&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored

#47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored

 Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are
 interpreted as 100."

 An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates
 incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe
 to assume we know what the sender really intended.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 16:46:23 +0000
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Thank you for the summary.

I'm fine with all the bullets! :)

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 16:58
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

I agree it needs to be stated in the draft.

Steve
On 2/10/14 9:44 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
Hi Steve

Thanks to have summarize this topic. I agree with your various statements t=
hat reflect in particular my own comments.

About mandatory for the default (loss) algorithm, effectively we  need this=
 for interoperability. Cannot it be stated in the draft? Future RFCs will h=
ave to be compatible with this .

Best regards

JJacques



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 16:08
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

I'll attempt to summarize where we are on this.  If this is agreed to then =
the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.  Some of this is alre=
ady in the draft, some of it will require changes.

- The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to include the=
 OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change required here.

- A reporting node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be sent =
to a reacting node from the set of abatement algorithms included in the OC-=
Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.

- If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the reacting node must be l=
oss.

- The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with the los=
s algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.

- If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm other=
 then loss, the reacting node must include the OC-Supported-Features AVP wi=
th a single algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.

- New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing OC-OLR=
 AVP.  The new algorithms may also create a new overload report AVP if that=
 makes the most sense.

- The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement algor=
ithm.  Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the mandator=
y to implement algorithm.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:





-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages





On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.moran=
d@orange.com> wrote:



Hi Jouni,



As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported al=
gos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP fo=
r the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be creat=
ed when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.



Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms

IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced

abatement algorithm..



[LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There is no=
 way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR sent i=
n the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could have=
 is "use either one or the other".



This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node

announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the

sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.



[LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector MAY =
be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the common=
 algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.



The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support mor=
e than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with another a=
lgo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given OLR.



I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..



[LM] I was not proposing such idea :)



- Jouni







It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with t=
he OC-OLR AVP.



It is already today if you only support the default, right.



[LM] Right. No issue here.



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages





On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@o=
range.com> wrote:



I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to solve =
it is not the correct one.



Agree.



The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with severa=
l algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC-Feat=
ure-Vector AVP.



The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.



But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it is n=
ot possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given algo whe=
n more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 s=
upported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate the ab=
atement to perform.



My intention was always allow:



 client announces  ABC

 server supports    BCD

 server announced only  e.g. C since it is common

 alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies



As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize supported al=
gos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report AVP fo=
r the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be creat=
ed when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-explicit.



Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms

IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced

abatement algorithm..



It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along with t=
he OC-OLR AVP.



It is already today if you only support the default, right.



- Jouni





Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages



#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages



According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in

the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP

in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reacting

DOIC endpoint.

The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node can do

with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow

reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer

messages.

Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).

A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no other

feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from

reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates

support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not receiving

an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:



a) There is no overload

b) DOIC is not supported



The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these

two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.

The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:

  If there is no single matching

  capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement

  DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter

  messages with this specific reacting node.



This however is inconsistent.

The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never

recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.

Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a different

path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that

supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the role

of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role since

the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-

Supported-Features AVPs.

In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-ietf-

dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other

drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even

describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.



--

--------------------------------------+--------------------------

Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>  |    =
  Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe

   Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new

Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:

Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:

Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:

--------------------------------------+--------------------------



Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30><http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>

dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/><http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>





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family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you =
for the summary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
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family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I'm fine w=
ith all the bullets!
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings=
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p></span></p>
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;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 16:58<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in ans=
wer messages<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I agree it needs to b=
e stated in the draft.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 9:44 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQ=
UES) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks to have summarize =
this topic. I agree with your various statements that reflect in particular=
 my own comments.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">About mandatory for the d=
efault (loss) algorithm, effectively we &nbsp;need this for interoperabilit=
y. Cannot it be stated in the draft? Future RFCs will have to
 be compatible with this .</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques &nbsp;&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org=
">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 16:08<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in ans=
wer messages</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I'll attempt to summa=
rize where we are on this.&nbsp; If this is agreed to then the necessary ch=
anges would be made to the -01 draft.&nbsp; Some of this is already in the =
draft, some of it will require changes.<br>
<br>
- The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to include the=
 OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change required here.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">- A reporti=
ng node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be sent to a reacti=
ng node from the set of abatement algorithms included in the OC-Supported-F=
eatures AVP received in the request message.<br>
<br>
</span>- If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no OC-Suppo=
rted-Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the reacting node mu=
st be loss.<br>
<br>
- The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with the los=
s algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.<br>
<br>
- If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm other=
 then loss, the reacting node must include the OC-Supported-Features AVP wi=
th a single algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
<br>
<br>
- New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing OC-OLR=
 AVP.&nbsp; The new algorithms may also create a new overload report AVP if=
 that makes the most sense.<br>
<br>
- The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement algor=
ithm.&nbsp; Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the man=
datory to implement algorithm.<br>
<br>
Steve <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answe=
r messages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Hi Jouni,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize support=
ed algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report A=
VP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be =
created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-expl=
icit.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>abatement algorithm.. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There =
is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR s=
ent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could=
 have is &quot;use either one or the other&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting no=
de<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector=
 MAY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the c=
ommon algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to suppor=
t more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with anot=
her algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given =
OLR.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs.=
.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[LM] I was not proposing such idea :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along w=
ith the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It is already today if you only support the default, right.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[LM] Right. No issue here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer mes=
sages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to s=
olve it is not the correct one.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with s=
everal algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC=
-Feature-Vector AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it=
 is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given alg=
o when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 fo=
r 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate t=
he abatement to perform.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>My intention was always allow:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> client announces&nbsp; ABC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> server supports&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BCD<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> server announced only&nbsp; e.g. C since it is common<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize support=
ed algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report A=
VP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be =
created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-expl=
icit.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>abatement algorithm.. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along w=
ith the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It is already today if you only support the default, right.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism i=
n<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reac=
ting<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DOIC endpoint.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The author of this document believes that&nbsp; the best a reacting no=
de can do<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>messages.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no ot=
her<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO&nbsp; by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not =
receiving<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a) There is no overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>b) DOIC is not supported<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between thes=
e<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The -01 draft says in&nbsp; clause 4.1:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; If there is no single matching<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not impleme=
nt<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diamete=
r<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; messages with this specific reacting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This however is inconsistent.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a diffe=
rent<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the =
role<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role si=
nce<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>Supported-Features AVPs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within&nbsp; dr=
aft-ietf-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>dime-ovli&nbsp; (i.e. never, since extensions will&nbsp; be defined in=
 other<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli&nbsp; to mandate or=
 even<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>--------------------------------------&#43;--------------------------<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporter:&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.mor=
and@orange.com</a>&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Owner:&nbsp; Ulric=
h Wiehe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp; defect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Status:&nbsp; new<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Priority:&nbsp; major&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&n=
bsp; Milestone:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Component:&nbsp; draft-docdt-dime-ovli&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; Version:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Severity:&nbsp; Active WG Document&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Keywords:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>--------------------------------------&#43;--------------------------<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ticket URL: <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/=
30">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30&gt;</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>dime <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.=
org/wg/dime/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</PRE></body>
</html>

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From ben@nostrum.com  Mon Feb 10 08:50:25 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be	ignored
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On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>=20
> OK with this statement.
> But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should =
apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?
>=20

I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid =
OC-Validity-Duration value?

> Lionel
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue =
tracker
> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:05
> =C0 : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 =
should be ignored
>=20
> #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
>=20
> Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are
> interpreted as 100."
>=20
> An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value =
indicates
> incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not =
safe
> to assume we know what the sender really intended.
>=20
> --=20
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
> Severity:  Active WG    |
>  Document               |
> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20


From lionel.morand@orange.com  Mon Feb 10 08:59:26 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 16:59:14 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Hi Steve,

In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Ho=
st type OLR should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even rem=
oved as irrelevant.

And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than=
 the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, t=
he realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host shou=
ld apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.

By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between=
 the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".

Lionel

De : Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39
=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic target=
ed for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destinatio=
n-host avp.  Is that correct?

I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report should tak=
e precedence over the host overload report.

My reasoning is as follows:

- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.  Cal=
l it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the realm can be based =
on a number of factors including the health of individual servers, individu=
al agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.

- When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network is co=
ngested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to send realm ov=
erload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent to the re=
alm as a whole will be reduced.

In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that requests targeted=
 for a healthy server will be throttled.

I propose the logic should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
  If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)



The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested=
 for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is rece=
ived for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies,=
 *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.



Is it clearer?



Lioenl



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.o=
rg>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Do=
novan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely ex=
treme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at al=
l, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why shou=
ld a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not =
at all overloaded S1?

What is wrong with letting the client

-not throttle host-type requests to S1,

-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and

-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?



Isn't this what Lionel said below?

<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>





Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case

except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?



If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying

the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.



- Jouni





I am OK with Lionel's

"wording" here.



- Jouni









From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@or=
ange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM

To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing pr=
inciples: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destinati=
on-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is =
an explicit report for the destination-host.



Lioenl



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targe=
ted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it =
would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.



If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the int=
eraction between realm reports and host reports.



I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host secon=
d.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm o=
verload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction ne=
eded to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm=
 abatement would then be candidates for host overload.



Steve



On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibit=
ed for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm=
, whatever the nodes inside this realm?

If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reac=
ting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the=
 realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... exc=
ept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this de=
stination-host.



Does it make sense?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload

treatment of a given report type applies.

Proposal:



   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests

      for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value

         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.







   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to

      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.





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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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Thank you.






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______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In your ex=
ample, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Host type OL=
R should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even
 removed as irrelevant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And in a n=
ormal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than the reduc=
tion needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload,
 the realm (S1&#43;S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Hos=
t should apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">By the way=
, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between the first=
 and the second conditions is an &quot;IF NOT&quot;.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.co=
m]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we have agree=
ment that a realm report applies to all traffic targeted for that realm, in=
dependent of the presence or absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is =
that correct?<br>
<br>
I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload report shoul=
d take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
<br>
My reasoning is as follows:<br>
<br>
- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.&nbsp=
; Call it the &quot;realm overload authority&quot;.&nbsp; The health of the=
 realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of individu=
al servers, individual agents and the network connecting
 Diameter entities.<br>
<br>
- When this &quot;realm overload authority&quot; determines that the IP net=
work is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to sen=
d realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent=
 to the realm as a whole will be reduced.<br>
<br>
In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is likely that requests tar=
geted for a healthy server will be throttled.<br>
<br>
I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written &quot;except&q=
uot; :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requ=
ested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is=
 received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also app=
lies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime=
@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</=
a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlike=
ly extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded =
at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why=
 should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the=
 not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ok, maybe I misread the &quot;realm abatement is applied in any case<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host&quot;?<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;wording&quot; here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routi=
ng principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Dest=
ination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if ther=
e is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests =
targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implie=
s that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specifi=
ed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify th=
e interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host =
second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result =
of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the re=
duction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host tha=
t survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel=
.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The case &quot;Realm&quot; as described below raises another question:=
 is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for =
the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If not, only OLR with the report type &quot;realm&quot; would be recei=
ved by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply=
 always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the=
 request... except if an explicit report with the type &quot;Host&quot; as =
been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests over=
load<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shoul=
d apply to requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditio=
ns are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present =
in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of =
the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shou=
ld apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following=
 conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent i=
n the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</PRE></body>
</html>

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From srdonovan@usdonovans.com  Mon Feb 10 08:59:30 2014
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:59:23 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be	ignored
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It is possible, the range defined is zero to 24 hours.  I think the text
is correct as it says that a value out of this range should be ignored.

Steve

On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Ben,
>>
>> OK with this statement.
>> But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?
>>
> I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid OC-Validity-Duration value?
>
>> Lionel
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
>> Envoyé : vendredi 7 février 2014 23:05
>> À : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
>>
>> #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
>>
>> Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are
>> interpreted as 100."
>>
>> An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates
>> incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe
>> to assume we know what the sender really intended.
>>
>> -- 
>> -------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
>> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
>> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
>> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
>> Severity:  Active WG    |
>>  Document               |
>> -------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">It is possible, the range
      defined is zero to 24 hours.&nbsp; I think the text is correct as it
      says that a value out of this range should be ignored.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:A017CA7E-A26B-49A6-8C44-78EF937A6A1E@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hi Ben,

OK with this statement.
But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid OC-Validity-Duration value?

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 7 f&eacute;vrier 2014 23:05
&Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored

#47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored

Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are
interpreted as 100."

An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates
incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe
to assume we know what the sender really intended.

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>        |  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ovli@tools.ietf.org">ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>
    Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
 docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
Severity:  Active WG    |
 Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47&gt;</a>
dime <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a>

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
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My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the
OC-Supported-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means
that the AVP must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting
node.

Steve

On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>
>  The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>  Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a capabilities
>  announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime to
>  Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different capability
>  sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for non-session
>  applications or pseudo-sessions.)
>
>  I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are stateless,
>  that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a response must
>  match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
>  Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set associated
>  with a capabilities set.
>
>  (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting agents. If
>  we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
>  negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">My sense from recent
      discussions is that the lifetime of the OC-Supported-Feature AVP
      is assumed to be one transaction.Â  This means that the AVP must be
      included in all request messages sent by a reacting node.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:057.08dd5ea0343928355a0b92f85a22d2ac@trac.tools.ietf.org"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">#49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought

 The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
 Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a capabilities
 announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime to
 Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different capability
 sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for non-session
 applications or pseudo-sessions.)

 I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are stateless,
 that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a response must
 match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
 Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set associated
 with a capabilities set.

 (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting agents. If
 we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
 negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #43: Overstated guidance on session-ending requests.
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Section 3.1.4 is not normative and says:

The following list of request treatment regarding throttling is provided
as guidelines for application designers when implementing the
Diameter overload control mechanism described in this document.
Exact behavior regarding throttling must be defined per application.

Do you think we need further clarification that application designers
should reflect that local policy applies?

Steve


On 2/7/14 3:34 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #43: Overstated guidance on session-ending requests.
>
>  In section 3.1.4, under "Intra-Session Requests" indicates that session
>  ending requests should be throttled less aggressively. While I agree
>  that's a good idea in general, I think that's a mater of local policy, and
>  not up to DOIC to specify.
>
>  It would be better to indicate that prioritization under overload is up to
>  local policy, and list prioritizing of session-ending requests as an
>  example of a potential local policy.
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Section 3.1.4 is not
      normative and says:</font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </font>
    <pre><div class="line" id="LC456">The following list of request treatment regarding throttling is provided</div><div class="line" id="LC457">as guidelines for application designers when implementing the</div><div class="line" id="LC458">Diameter overload control mechanism described in this document.</div><div class="line" id="LC459">Exact behavior regarding throttling must be defined per application.</div></pre>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Do you think we need
      further clarification that application designers should reflect
      that local policy applies?<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/14 3:34 PM, dime issue tracker
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:057.97c5ce599fb219f1e97cb7300a394f91@trac.tools.ietf.org"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">#43: Overstated guidance on session-ending requests.

 In section 3.1.4, under "Intra-Session Requests" indicates that session
 ending requests should be throttled less aggressively. While I agree
 that's a good idea in general, I think that's a mater of local policy, and
 not up to DOIC to specify.

 It would be better to indicate that prioritization under overload is up to
 local policy, and list prioritizing of session-ending requests as an
 example of a potential local policy.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #37: Inconsistent name and abbreviation
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I vote for DOIC, as I have already used it in extension drafts.

Steve

On 2/7/14 2:31 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #37: Inconsistent name and abbreviation
>
>  The introduction refers to the mechanism as Diameter Overload Control
>  (DOC). Elsewhere it's Diameter Overload Information Conveyance (DOIC). We
>  need to pick one and stick with it.
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I vote for DOIC, as I
      have already used it in extension drafts.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/14 2:31 PM, dime issue tracker
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:057.3a201a94252d25a27114080765cddc27@trac.tools.ietf.org"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">#37: Inconsistent name and abbreviation

 The introduction refers to the mechanism as Diameter Overload Control
 (DOC). Elsewhere it's Diameter Overload Information Conveyance (DOIC). We
 need to pick one and stick with it.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #28: Report type support in capabilities?
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I'm sold.

Steve
On 2/7/14 4:23 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> Agree.
>
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 7:09 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>
>> The default mechanism implies that a client will be able to manage both types of report. Therefore there is no need at this stage IMHO.
>>
>> In future, if there is a need to explicitly indicate which report type a node support, it may be a hint for defining different capabilities/algos. And this new capability will be described a new companion document.
>>
>> Lionel
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
>> Envoyé : vendredi 31 janvier 2014 23:16
>> À : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #28: Report type support in capabilities?
>>
>> #28: Report type support in capabilities?
>>
>> This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli
>>
>> This is more of a question than an issue.
>>
>> We currently only include the abatement algorithm in the OC-Feature-Vector
>> AVP.  The question is whether we should expand it to include support for
>> the host(server) report and realm report.
>>
>> The reason for the question is that the agent overload extension will
>> likely include an indicator in the OC-Feature-Vector of support for the
>> peer report type.
>>
>> -- 
>> -------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
>> Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>>  srdonovan@usdonovans.com           |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
>> Priority:  minor                    |  Milestone:
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:
>> Severity:  Submitted WG Document    |   Keywords:
>> -------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
>>
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/28>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I'm sold.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/14 4:23 AM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:E18602D4-2A89-4698-8967-94F950369251@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Agree.

On Feb 5, 2014, at 7:09 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">The default mechanism implies that a client will be able to manage both types of report. Therefore there is no need at this stage IMHO.

In future, if there is a need to explicitly indicate which report type a node support, it may be a hint for defining different capabilities/algos. And this new capability will be described a new companion document.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 31 janvier 2014 23:16
&Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : [Dime] [dime] #28: Report type support in capabilities?

#28: Report type support in capabilities?

This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli

This is more of a question than an issue.

We currently only include the abatement algorithm in the OC-Feature-Vector
AVP.  The question is whether we should expand it to include support for
the host(server) report and realm report.

The reason for the question is that the agent overload extension will
likely include an indicator in the OC-Feature-Vector of support for the
peer report type.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>           |  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ovli@tools.ietf.org">ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>
    Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
Priority:  minor                    |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:
Severity:  Submitted WG Document    |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/28">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/28&gt;</a>
dime <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a>

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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:10:52 -0600
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Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC endpoint behavior - Agent Overload Report handling
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This is part of the need for a definition of endpoints.  I will wait to
reply until we have resolved that question.

Steve

On 2/7/14 3:45 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> Comments inline:
>
> On Feb 4, 2014, at 3:29 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>> The following wording is proposed to be added to section 5.5 on Overload Report Processing.
>>
>> This goes along with the proposed wording for agent involvement in capability exchange.
>>
>> The most important piece of behavior proposed is for the case when the agent is a back-to-back DOIC association agent as illustrated here:
>>
>>   DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream DOIC association--> DOC  node
>>
>> In this case, it is proposed that when the DOC agent receives a host or realm overload report the DOC agent simply passes it on without taking further action.  The goal being to do the overload abatement as close to the source of the request as possible.
>>
>> The text isn't perfect yet, but I wanted to get the basic behavior proposal across.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> 5.5.4 Agent Considerations
>>
>> As discussed in section x.x.x, agents can take on the role of reporting node and reacting node.
>>
>> Agent as reporting node
>>
>> A DOC agent will take on the role of a reporting node any time that there is a downstream DOIC association.
>>
>> For the report types supporting in this document, an agent should only originate an overload report in two cases:
>>
>> - When the agent is acting as overload authority for a set of servers.  In this case, requests are sent to the destination-host of the agent and the agent is responsible for reporting on the overload state when the server farm represented by that destination-host value is entering an overloaded condition.
> Makes sense and is inline what I originally thought.
>
>> - When the agent is acting as overload authority for a realm.  In this case, the agent is responsible for inserting realm based overload reports into answer messages from servers in that realm.
> Ok.
>
>> Agent as reacting node
>>
>> An agent will take on the role of a reacting node whenever there is an upstream DOIC association.  In this case, the agent will be reacting to host overload reports.
>>
>> The behavior of the agent acting as a reacting node depends on whether or not there is a downstream association.
>>
>> If there is a downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent should pass any overload report on to the downstream Diameter node without taking any further action.
>>
>>   Note: This is based on the assumption that it is best to handle the overload instance as close to the source of the Diameter transaction as possible.
>>
>>   Note: This is not a must because there could be operator specific policies that result in handling of the overload condition in the agent.
> I kind of agree Ulrich's concern here. If the two
> associations have different supported features some
> modifications may be needed on the OLRs. However, I
> also think the "the DOC agent should pass any" is
> enough to cover the case Ulrich points at, assuming
> we note the case where downstream and upstream
> associations have different capabilities.
>
>> If there is no downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent is responsible for handling the overload condition.  In this case the DOC agent must throttle requests targeted for the host or realm indicated in the overload report.  The method used should be consistent with the considerations outlined in section 5.5.2.
> Ok.
>
> - Jouni
>
>> When a request message is selected for throttling, the DOC agent must generate the appropriate error response message.
>>
>> Editors note: the error message to be sent is TBD.
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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<html>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">This is part of the need
      for a definition of endpoints.&nbsp; I will wait to reply until we have
      resolved that question.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/14 3:45 AM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:80E5E47E-9AD1-432F-9CA5-BA7D3D73D894@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Comments inline:

On Feb 4, 2014, at 3:29 PM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">The following wording is proposed to be added to section 5.5 on Overload Report Processing.

This goes along with the proposed wording for agent involvement in capability exchange.

The most important piece of behavior proposed is for the case when the agent is a back-to-back DOIC association agent as illustrated here:

  DOC node &lt;--downstream DOIC association--&gt; DOC agent &lt;--upstream DOIC association--&gt; DOC  node

In this case, it is proposed that when the DOC agent receives a host or realm overload report the DOC agent simply passes it on without taking further action.  The goal being to do the overload abatement as close to the source of the request as possible.

The text isn't perfect yet, but I wanted to get the basic behavior proposal across.

Regards,

Steve

5.5.4 Agent Considerations

As discussed in section x.x.x, agents can take on the role of reporting node and reacting node.

Agent as reporting node

A DOC agent will take on the role of a reporting node any time that there is a downstream DOIC association.

For the report types supporting in this document, an agent should only originate an overload report in two cases:

- When the agent is acting as overload authority for a set of servers.  In this case, requests are sent to the destination-host of the agent and the agent is responsible for reporting on the overload state when the server farm represented by that destination-host value is entering an overloaded condition.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Makes sense and is inline what I originally thought.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">- When the agent is acting as overload authority for a realm.  In this case, the agent is responsible for inserting realm based overload reports into answer messages from servers in that realm.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Ok.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Agent as reacting node

An agent will take on the role of a reacting node whenever there is an upstream DOIC association.  In this case, the agent will be reacting to host overload reports.

The behavior of the agent acting as a reacting node depends on whether or not there is a downstream association.

If there is a downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent should pass any overload report on to the downstream Diameter node without taking any further action.

  Note: This is based on the assumption that it is best to handle the overload instance as close to the source of the Diameter transaction as possible.

  Note: This is not a must because there could be operator specific policies that result in handling of the overload condition in the agent.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I kind of agree Ulrich's concern here. If the two
associations have different supported features some
modifications may be needed on the OLRs. However, I
also think the "the DOC agent should pass any" is
enough to cover the case Ulrich points at, assuming
we note the case where downstream and upstream
associations have different capabilities.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
If there is no downstream DOIC association then the DOC agent is responsible for handling the overload condition.  In this case the DOC agent must throttle requests targeted for the host or realm indicated in the overload report.  The method used should be consistent with the considerations outlined in section 5.5.2.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Ok.

- Jouni

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
When a request message is selected for throttling, the DOC agent must generate the appropriate error response message.

Editors note: the error message to be sent is TBD.
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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Mon Feb 10 09:12:28 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview
Thread-Index: AQHPJn5lT5DxkanaU024JqRTea0JVZqun3iAgAAXEdA=
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview
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I would like to clarify this point.

Now, it is a WG document and not anymore an individual submission.
So we need someone to edit the document but anyone can propose a text for d=
iscussion to modify/update the draft.

I don't think that it is need to formally assign the issue someone responsi=
ble for updating thedraft. We just need to converge as soon as possible on =
a text via the mailing list.

Lionel


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 17:39
=C0=A0: Steve Donovan
Cc=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ie=
tf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview

I can volunteer for that, with the caveat that it probably won't happen bef=
ore the IETF89 draft deadline.

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:37 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrot=
e:

> I think the way to handle this issue in the issue tracker is to assign it=
 to one of the authors and that author would then be responsible for genera=
ting overview text.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/8/14 11:02 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> Hi Ben,
>>=20
>> Any proposal?
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [
>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>> ] De la part de dime issue tracker
>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 21:55
>> =C0 :=20
>> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
>>=20
>> Cc :=20
>> dime@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #41: Need better overview
>>=20
>> #41: Need better overview
>>=20
>>  The overview is short on explanation. We need a high level, non-normati=
ve
>>  "how it works" description of the mechanism, including roles,
>>  responsibilities, associations, and information flows. This doesn't need
>>  too much detail (e.g. message and AVP definitions belong elsewhere.)
>>=20
>>  Some of the information in the endpoint architecture section would be
>>  better off here.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Mon Feb 10 09:14:48 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #39: Definition of Diameter Routing
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Hi Steve,

If I'm correct, the right ticket content is the following one.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
Envoy=E9=A0: samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 18:00
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #39: Definition of Diameter Routing

Hi Ben,

The "XXX" refers to Diameter application designers.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 21:45
=C0=A0: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #39: Definition of Diameter Routing

#39: Definition of Diameter Routing


Comment (by ben@nostrum.com):

 (Oops, sent to soon). The last sentence says "It is possible to enhance
 the routing decision with application-level knowledge..." The passive
 voice obscures the responsibility. What actor may do this? (I suggest
 recasting the sentence as "XXX may enhance..."

--=20
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |       Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |      Status:  new
 Priority:  minor        |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |     Version:  1.0
  docdt-dime-ovli        |  Resolution:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
 Keywords:               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/39#comment:1>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From srdonovan@usdonovans.com  Mon Feb 10 09:24:36 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
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If we agree that the lifetime of the OC-Supported-Features capability
advertisement is a single transaction then the utility of the sequence
number is reduced. 

My reason for pushing for having the sequence number originally was
based on the assumption that the capability advertised by a reacting
node was semi permanent.  While there might be no earthly use, the
heavenly use was to decrease the work for reporting nodes needing to
parse the AVP on every request received. 

It is still the case that the OC-Supported-Features AVP contents will
almost never change.  The contents of the AVP will also become more
complex as new extensions are defined.  The value of the sequence number
is to allow a reporting node to save the advertisement and not parse the
full content of the AVP unless the sequence number changes. 

I still think there is enough value in the reduced work on a reporting
node to keep the sequence number.

Steve

On 2/7/14 2:01 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> Finally catching up with these.. see inline.
>
>
> On Feb 4, 2014, at 10:46 AM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
>>
>> According to the current definition of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in
>> the -01 draft, the OC-Supported-Features AVP contains an OC-Sequence-
>> Number AVP.
>> The author of this document believes that OC-Sequence-Number within OC-
>> Supported-Feature is  not needed, is useless and could be misleading and
>> therefore proposes to remove OC-Sequence-Number from OC-Supported-Feature.
>>
>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.1:
>>    The OC-Sequence-Number AVP is used to indicate whether the contents
>>    of the OC-Supported-Features AVP has changed since last time the node
>>    included the OC-Supported-Features AVP (see Section 4.4).  Although
>>    sending the OC-Sequence-Number AVP is mandatory in the OC-Supported-
>>    Features AVP, the receiving node MAY always choose to ignore the
>>    sequence number if it can determine the feature support changes
>>    otherwise.
>>
>> The text seems to imply that the reporting DOIC endpoint, when receiving
>> an application request message that contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP,
>> needs to determine whether a feature support change occured (either by
>> checking the value of the received sequence-number (probably) against a
>> stored value, or by other unspecified means). However,  this is not
>> correct. The reporting DOIC endpoint may  ignore the sequence-number even
>> if it cannot determine whether or not a feature support change occured:
>> The reporting DOIC endpoint simply takes the value of the OC-Feature-
>> Vector as received in the request  into account (if absent the default
>> value applies) when processing the request.  There is no need for the
>> reporting DOIC endpoint to know whether a previous request contained the
>> same or a different value in OC-Feature-Vector, i.e. whether there was a
>> recent change.
> This is true for the current default algorithm. May not be true in the
> future. Note, in IETF space versioning Diameter applications is not that
> straight forward as in 3GPP, thus I would rather have forward looking
> solution, even if that in places would mean "placeholder" AVPs.
>
>> It has been argued that the reporting DOIC endpoint may (optionally)
>> benefit from the presence of a Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-
>> Features: The reporting DOIC endpoint may have stored the Sequence-Number
>> and Feature-Vector as received in a previous request, and when receiving a
>> new request the reporting DOIC endpoint would compare the received
>> Sequence-Number from the new request  with the stored Sequence-Number;  If
>> they match (i.e. no change of supported features occured) the reporting
>> DOIC endpoint would ignore the received Feature-Vector from the new
>> request and use the stored Feature-Vector for further processing; if they
>> don't match (i.e. a change of supported features occured), the reporting
>> DOIC endpoint would update the stored Sequence-Number and Feature-Vector
>> with the received values from the new request and use the updated Feature-
>> Vector for further processing. While it is debatable whether the described
>> usecase is reasonable, the following issues have not been addressed:
>> In configurations where the client does not support DOIC, an agent (A1) on
>> a path from client to reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g. server) may take the
>> role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
>> in the (first) request message indicating its supported features.  A
>> subsequent request message sent from the same client to the same server
>> may take another path on which another agent (A2) takes the role of the
>> reacting DOIC endpoint. A2 then inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP in
>> the subsequent request message indicating its supported features (which
>> may be different from A1's supported features but may have the same
>> sequence number).  Since the reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g.server) - when
> Since seq-no is NTP time, this would not happen, excluding cases
> where clocks either in A1 or A2 are wrong. But that is a different
> issue then..
>
>> receiving the subsequent request - cannot know whether the the reacting
>> DOIC endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the
>> subsequent request is identical to or different from the reacting DOIC
>> endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the first request,
> Right.
>
>> it may frequently occure that the reporting DOIC endpoint receives request
>> messages containing an OC-Supported-Features AVP with a Sequence-Number
>> valuelower than the stored value (which may be interpreted as error), or
>> equal to the stored value but with a different associated Feature Vector,
>> or higher than the stored value but unmodified Feature Vector.
> See the above comment on the NPT.
>
>> In summary, the Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-Features is of no
>> earthly use since the reporting DOIC endpoint cannot associate a received
>> Sequence-Number (within OC-Supported-Features) with the identity of the
>> reacting DOIC endpoint that sent the Sequence-Number.  Even when such
>> association was possible by enhancing the OC-Supported-Features AVP with
>> the Diameter Identity of the reacting DOIC endpoint that generated the
>> Sequence-Number,  it would still simply not be needed as the reporting
>> DOIC endpoint can base its processing on the received Feature-Vector
>> (rather than on a stored Feature Vector).
> I buy the reasoning for the lack of binding between the reacting node
> identity and the supported features AVP.
>
> However, we should not assume that _all_ implementations will behave
> as expected above i.e. not storing the feature vector.
>
>> It is therefore proposed to remove the OC-Sequence-Number AVP from the OC-
>> Supported Features AVP.
> I have no (more) strong view here. If folks are OK to remove
> the seq-no, so be it.
>
> - Jouni
>
>
>
>> -- 
>> ----------------------------------------------+--------------------------
>> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>>     Type:  defect                            |     Status:  new
>> Priority:  major                             |  Milestone:
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli             |    Version:  2.0
>> Severity:  Active WG Document                |   Keywords:
>> ----------------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/29>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">If we agree that the
      lifetime of the OC-Supported-Features capability advertisement is
      a single transaction then the utility of the sequence number is
      reduced.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      My reason for pushing for having the sequence number originally
      was based on the assumption that the capability advertised by a
      reacting node was semi permanent.&nbsp; While there might be no earthly
      use, the heavenly use was to decrease the work for reporting nodes
      needing to parse the AVP on every request received.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      It is still the case that the OC-Supported-Features AVP contents
      will almost never change.&nbsp; The contents of the AVP will also
      become more complex as new extensions are defined.&nbsp; The value of
      the sequence number is to allow a reporting node to save the
      advertisement and not parse the full content of the AVP unless the
      sequence number changes.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      I still think there is enough value in the reduced work on a
      reporting node to keep the sequence number.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/14 2:01 AM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:78300994-0C77-47B5-B28E-D03048916AF3@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Finally catching up with these.. see inline.


On Feb 4, 2014, at 10:46 AM, dime issue tracker <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">&lt;trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">#29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features

According to the current definition of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in
the -01 draft, the OC-Supported-Features AVP contains an OC-Sequence-
Number AVP.
The author of this document believes that OC-Sequence-Number within OC-
Supported-Feature is  not needed, is useless and could be misleading and
therefore proposes to remove OC-Sequence-Number from OC-Supported-Feature.

The -01 draft says in clause 4.1:
   The OC-Sequence-Number AVP is used to indicate whether the contents
   of the OC-Supported-Features AVP has changed since last time the node
   included the OC-Supported-Features AVP (see Section 4.4).  Although
   sending the OC-Sequence-Number AVP is mandatory in the OC-Supported-
   Features AVP, the receiving node MAY always choose to ignore the
   sequence number if it can determine the feature support changes
   otherwise.

The text seems to imply that the reporting DOIC endpoint, when receiving
an application request message that contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP,
needs to determine whether a feature support change occured (either by
checking the value of the received sequence-number (probably) against a
stored value, or by other unspecified means). However,  this is not
correct. The reporting DOIC endpoint may  ignore the sequence-number even
if it cannot determine whether or not a feature support change occured:
The reporting DOIC endpoint simply takes the value of the OC-Feature-
Vector as received in the request  into account (if absent the default
value applies) when processing the request.  There is no need for the
reporting DOIC endpoint to know whether a previous request contained the
same or a different value in OC-Feature-Vector, i.e. whether there was a
recent change.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
This is true for the current default algorithm. May not be true in the
future. Note, in IETF space versioning Diameter applications is not that
straight forward as in 3GPP, thus I would rather have forward looking
solution, even if that in places would mean "placeholder" AVPs.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">It has been argued that the reporting DOIC endpoint may (optionally)
benefit from the presence of a Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-
Features: The reporting DOIC endpoint may have stored the Sequence-Number
and Feature-Vector as received in a previous request, and when receiving a
new request the reporting DOIC endpoint would compare the received
Sequence-Number from the new request  with the stored Sequence-Number;  If
they match (i.e. no change of supported features occured) the reporting
DOIC endpoint would ignore the received Feature-Vector from the new
request and use the stored Feature-Vector for further processing; if they
don't match (i.e. a change of supported features occured), the reporting
DOIC endpoint would update the stored Sequence-Number and Feature-Vector
with the received values from the new request and use the updated Feature-
Vector for further processing. While it is debatable whether the described
usecase is reasonable, the following issues have not been addressed:
In configurations where the client does not support DOIC, an agent (A1) on
a path from client to reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g. server) may take the
role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP
in the (first) request message indicating its supported features.  A
subsequent request message sent from the same client to the same server
may take another path on which another agent (A2) takes the role of the
reacting DOIC endpoint. A2 then inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP in
the subsequent request message indicating its supported features (which
may be different from A1's supported features but may have the same
sequence number).  Since the reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g.server) - when
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Since seq-no is NTP time, this would not happen, excluding cases
where clocks either in A1 or A2 are wrong. But that is a different
issue then..

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">receiving the subsequent request - cannot know whether the the reacting
DOIC endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the
subsequent request is identical to or different from the reacting DOIC
endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the first request,
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Right.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">it may frequently occure that the reporting DOIC endpoint receives request
messages containing an OC-Supported-Features AVP with a Sequence-Number
valuelower than the stored value (which may be interpreted as error), or
equal to the stored value but with a different associated Feature Vector,
or higher than the stored value but unmodified Feature Vector.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
See the above comment on the NPT.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">In summary, the Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-Features is of no
earthly use since the reporting DOIC endpoint cannot associate a received
Sequence-Number (within OC-Supported-Features) with the identity of the
reacting DOIC endpoint that sent the Sequence-Number.  Even when such
association was possible by enhancing the OC-Supported-Features AVP with
the Diameter Identity of the reacting DOIC endpoint that generated the
Sequence-Number,  it would still simply not be needed as the reporting
DOIC endpoint can base its processing on the received Feature-Vector
(rather than on a stored Feature Vector).
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I buy the reasoning for the lack of binding between the reacting node
identity and the supported features AVP.

However, we should not assume that _all_ implementations will behave
as expected above i.e. not storing the feature vector.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">It is therefore proposed to remove the OC-Sequence-Number AVP from the OC-
Supported Features AVP.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I have no (more) strong view here. If folks are OK to remove
the seq-no, so be it.

- Jouni



</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
-- 
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------
Reporter:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com">lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com</a>  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
    Type:  defect                            |     Status:  new
Priority:  major                             |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli             |    Version:  2.0
Severity:  Active WG Document                |   Keywords:
----------------------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/29">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/29&gt;</a>
dime <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a>

_______________________________________________
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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

</pre>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>,  "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #37: Inconsistent name and abbreviation
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 17:24:39 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #37: Inconsistent name and abbreviation
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Cc: DiME <dime-bounces@ietf.org>, ben@nostrum.com, dime@ietf.org, draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #43: Overstated guidance on session-ending	requests.
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I agree.

"Throttling session ending  requests less aggressively" should be an 
example of local policy.

Janet

"DiME" <dime-bounces@ietf.org> wrote on 02/10/2014 12:06:18 PM:

> From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
> To: dime@ietf.org, draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org, ben@nostrum.com
> Date: 02/10/2014 12:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #43: Overstated guidance on session-
> ending requests.
> Sent by: "DiME" <dime-bounces@ietf.org>
> 
> Section 3.1.4 is not normative and says:
> The following list of request treatment regarding throttling is provided
> as guidelines for application designers when implementing the
> Diameter overload control mechanism described in this document.
> Exact behavior regarding throttling must be defined per application.
> Do you think we need further clarification that application 
> designers should reflect that local policy applies?
> 
> Steve
> 

> On 2/7/14 3:34 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #43: Overstated guidance on session-ending requests.
> 
>  In section 3.1.4, under "Intra-Session Requests" indicates that session
>  ending requests should be throttled less aggressively. While I agree
>  that's a good idea in general, I think that's a mater of local policy, 
and
>  not up to DOIC to specify.
> 
>  It would be better to indicate that prioritization under overload is up 
to
>  local policy, and list prioritizing of session-ending requests as an
>  example of a potential local policy.
> 

> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

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<font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I agree.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&quot;Throttling session ending &nbsp;requests
less aggressively&quot; should be an example of local policy.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Janet</font>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>&quot;DiME&quot; &lt;dime-bounces@ietf.org&gt; wrote
on 02/10/2014 12:06:18 PM:<br>
<br>
&gt; From: Steve Donovan &lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; To: dime@ietf.org, draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org,
ben@nostrum.com</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; Date: 02/10/2014 12:06 PM</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #43: Overstated guidance
on session-<br>
&gt; ending requests.</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; Sent by: &quot;DiME&quot; &lt;dime-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; <br>
&gt; Section 3.1.4 is not normative and says:</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; The following list of request treatment regarding
throttling is provided</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; as guidelines for application designers when
implementing the</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; Diameter overload control mechanism described
in this document.</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; Exact behavior regarding throttling must be defined
per application.</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; Do you think we need further clarification that
application <br>
&gt; designers should reflect that local policy applies?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Steve<br>
&gt; <br>
</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; On 2/7/14 3:34 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; #43: Overstated guidance on session-ending requests.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;In section 3.1.4, under &quot;Intra-Session Requests&quot; indicates
that session<br>
&gt; &nbsp;ending requests should be throttled less aggressively. While
I agree<br>
&gt; &nbsp;that's a good idea in general, I think that's a mater of local
policy, and<br>
&gt; &nbsp;not up to DOIC to specify.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;It would be better to indicate that prioritization under overload
is up to<br>
&gt; &nbsp;local policy, and list prioritizing of session-ending requests
as an<br>
&gt; &nbsp;example of a potential local policy.<br>
&gt; <br>
</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; DiME mailing list<br>
&gt; DiME@ietf.org<br>
&gt; </font></tt><a href=https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime><tt><font size=2>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
</font></tt>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be	ignored
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be	ignored
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Hi Steve,

About the OC-Validity-Reduction AVP values greater than 24 hours, it is sai=
d that the default value 5s applies.

I was therefore wondering if it should be also considered as an error and t=
herefore discarded. It is a real open question. Not an issue per se as I'm =
fine with the existing text. I was reacting on the reason for change explai=
ned by Ben.

Regards,

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 17:59
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 shoul=
d be ignored

It is possible, the range defined is zero to 24 hours.  I think the text is=
 correct as it says that a value out of this range should be ignored.

Steve
On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:



On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com> wrote:



Hi Ben,



OK with this statement.

But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should apply=
 for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?





I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid OC-Va=
lidity-Duration value?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:05

=C0 : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@too=
ls.ietf.org>; ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be=
 ignored



#47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored



Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are

interpreted as 100."



An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates

incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe

to assume we know what the sender really intended.



--

-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-

 ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org<mail=
to:ovli@tools.ietf.org>

    Type:  defect       |     Status:  new

Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:

Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0

 docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:

Severity:  Active WG    |

 Document               |

-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------



Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47><http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47>

dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/><http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>



_______________________________________________

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DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">About the =
OC-Validity-Reduction AVP values greater than 24 hours, it is said that the=
 default value 5s applies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I was ther=
efore wondering if it should be also considered as an error and therefore d=
iscarded. It is a real open question. Not an issue per se
 as I'm fine with the existing text. I was reacting on the reason for chang=
e explained by Ben.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 17:59<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater th=
an 100 should be ignored<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">It is possible, the r=
ange defined is zero to 24 hours.&nbsp; I think the text is correct as it s=
ays that a value out of this range should be ignored.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Hi Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>OK with this statement.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should =
apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid =
OC-Validity-Duration value?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:05<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-do=
cdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@no=
strum.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 shou=
ld be ignored<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Section 4.7 says &quot; [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100=
 are<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>interpreted as 100.&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indic=
ates<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not s=
afe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to assume we know what the sender really intended.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-------------------------&#43;----------------------------------------=
---------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporter:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Owner:&nbsp; draft-=
docdt-dime-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:ovli@tools.ietf.org">=
ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp; defect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Status:&nbsp; new<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Priority:&nbsp; minor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp=
; Milestone:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Component:&nbsp; draft-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; Version:&nbsp; 1.0<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> docdt-dime-ovli&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Keywords:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Severity:&nbsp; Active WG&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Document&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-------------------------&#43;----------------------------------------=
---------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ticket URL: <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/=
47">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47&gt;</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>dime <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.=
org/wg/dime/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</PRE></body>
</html>

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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>,  "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Lionel,

Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is
perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when
there are no servers in overload.  This could happen in the case I
mentioned where the realm overload report is triggered by layer 3
congestion.

Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server
overload, but that isn't the only consideration.

My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is no
reason to do the host throttling if the request has already been
throttled by the realm report.
It should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host
overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm
abatement algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm. 
This might look something like the following:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
    If request is throttled:
      Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the
destination-host AVP
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host
overload report that applies to the request:
    If host credits exist for the host indicated in the destination-host
AVP:
      Decrement host credit by one
    else:
      Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Steve

On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
>  
>
> In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server,
> the Host type OLR should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers,
> or even removed as irrelevant.
>
>  
>
> And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower
> than the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50%
> overload, the realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction
> for the Host should apply, why the host-type should prevail over
> realm-type OLR.
>
>  
>
> By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation
> between the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".
>
>  
>
> Lionel
>
>  
>
> *De :*Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Envoyé :* lundi 10 février 2014 15:39
> *À :* MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
> DE/Munich)
> *Cc :* dime@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  
>
> I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic
> targeted for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the
> destination-host avp.  Is that correct?
>
> I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report
> should take precedence over the host overload report.
>
> My reasoning is as follows:
>
> - There is something responsible for tracking the health of the
> realm.  Call it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the
> realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of
> individual servers, individual agents and the network connecting
> Diameter entities.
>
> - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network
> is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to
> send realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall
> traffic sent to the realm as a whole will be reduced.
>
> In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes
> precedence over the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that
> requests targeted for a healthy server will be throttled.
>
> I propose the logic should be as follows:
>
> For all requests:
>   If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
>   If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
> Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports
> in any answer message, not just answers to requests that did not
> contain a destination-host AVP.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>     No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)
>
>      
>
>     The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.
>
>      
>
>     Is it clearer?
>
>      
>
>     Lioenl 
>
>      
>
>     -----Message d'origine-----
>
>     De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>     Envoyé : dimanche 9 février 2014 13:46
>
>     À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>     Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>      
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>         Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
>
>         To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>         Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>          
>
>             I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>
>             What is wrong with letting the client
>
>             -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
>
>             -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
>
>             -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>
>          
>
>         Isn't this what Lionel said below?
>
>         <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case
>
>     except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?
>
>      
>
>     If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying
>
>     the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.
>
>      
>
>     - Jouni
>
>      
>
>      
>
>         I am OK with Lionel's
>
>         "wording" here.
>
>          
>
>         - Jouni
>
>          
>
>              
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
>
>             Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>
>             To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>              
>
>             I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>
>              
>
>             Lioenl
>
>              
>
>             De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>
>             Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:56
>
>             À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>              
>
>             It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>
>              
>
>             If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>
>              
>
>             I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>
>              
>
>             Steve
>
>              
>
>             On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>             The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>
>             If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.
>
>              
>
>             Does it make sense?
>
>              
>
>             Lionel
>
>              
>
>             -----Message d'origine-----
>
>             De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org] 
>
>             Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:55
>
>             À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>
>             Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>              
>
>             #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>              
>
>             Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>
>             treatment of a given report type applies.
>
>             Proposal:
>
>              
>
>                0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>
>                   for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                   a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>
>                      matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>
>                      that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                   b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                      value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                      that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                   c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                      request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                      Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>              
>
>              
>
>              
>
>                1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>
>                   requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                   a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>
>                   b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                      value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                      that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                   c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                      request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                      Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>              
>
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>
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>
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>
>             Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>              
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>
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>
>             _______________________________________________
>
>             DiME mailing list
>
>             DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>          
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>      
>
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>
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>
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>
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>      
>
>  
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Lionel,<br>
      <br>
      Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp; It is
      perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction
      when there are no servers in overload.&nbsp; This could happen in the
      case I mentioned where the realm overload report is triggered by
      layer 3 congestion.<br>
      <br>
      Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server
      overload, but that isn't the only consideration.<br>
      <br>
      My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp; There
      is no reason to do the host throttling if the request has already
      been throttled by the realm report.<br>
      It should be as follows:</font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
      For all requests:<br>
      &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
      &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a
      host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
      <br>
      One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the
      realm abatement algorithm and input that into the server abatement
      algorithm.&nbsp; This might look something like the following:<br>
    </font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
        Roman, Times, serif">
        For all requests:<br>
        &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
        request:<br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the
        destination-host AVP<br>
        &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a
        host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the
        destination-host AVP:<br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
      </font><br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:10970_1392051556_52F90564_10970_1652_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497C2B@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
            Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">In your example, if an agent has a better
            knowledge than the server, the Host type OLR should not be
            sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even removed as
            irrelevant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">And in a normal case, the reduction for the
            realm will be likely lower than the reduction needed for a
            node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm
            (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the
            Host should apply, why the host-type should prevail over
            realm-type OLR.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not
            clear if the relation between the first and the second
            conditions is an "IF NOT".
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Lionel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                Steve Donovan [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:39<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe,
                Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                <b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we
          have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic
          targeted for that realm, independent of the presence or
          absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is that correct?<br>
          <br>
          I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload
          report should take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
          <br>
          My reasoning is as follows:<br>
          <br>
          - There is something responsible for tracking the health of
          the realm.&nbsp; Call it the "realm overload authority".&nbsp; The
          health of the realm can be based on a number of factors
          including the health of individual servers, individual agents
          and the network connecting Diameter entities.<br>
          <br>
          - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP
          network is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents
          or servers to send realm overload reports with the expectation
          that the overall traffic sent to the realm as a whole will be
          reduced.<br>
          <br>
          In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes
          precedence over the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is
          likely that requests targeted for a healthy server will be
          throttled.<br>
          <br>
          I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
          <br>
          For all requests:<br>
          &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
          request:<br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
          &nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the
          request:<br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
          <br>
          Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload
          reports in any answer message, not just answers to requests
          that did not contain a destination-host AVP.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
              lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Lioenl <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&Agrave;&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc: ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>"wording" here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>Lioenl<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>De : DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&Agrave; : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Cc : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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              <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
              <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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              <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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              <pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
      <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</pre>
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I agree that a clarification is needed on what it means to be "treated
as is the OC-Validity-Duration AVP was not present".  It would e better
to say:

  "Invalid validity duration values are given the default value". Steve

On 2/10/14 11:29 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>
>  
>
> About the OC-Validity-Reduction AVP values greater than 24 hours, it
> is said that the default value 5s applies.
>
>  
>
> I was therefore wondering if it should be also considered as an error
> and therefore discarded. It is a real open question. Not an issue per
> se as I'm fine with the existing text. I was reacting on the reason
> for change explained by Ben.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
>  
>
> Lionel
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Steve Donovan
> *Envoyé :* lundi 10 février 2014 17:59
> *À :* dime@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than
> 100 should be ignored
>
>  
>
> It is possible, the range defined is zero to 24 hours.  I think the
> text is correct as it says that a value out of this range should be
> ignored.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>
>      
>
>     On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>      
>
>         Hi Ben,
>
>          
>
>         OK with this statement.
>
>         But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?
>
>          
>
>      
>
>     I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid OC-Validity-Duration value?
>
>      
>
>         Lionel
>
>          
>
>         -----Message d'origine-----
>
>         De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
>
>         Envoyé : vendredi 7 février 2014 23:05
>
>         À : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org <mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>; ben@nostrum.com <mailto:ben@nostrum.com>
>
>         Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
>
>          
>
>         #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
>
>          
>
>         Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are
>
>         interpreted as 100."
>
>          
>
>         An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates
>
>         incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe
>
>         to assume we know what the sender really intended.
>
>          
>
>         -- 
>
>         -------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
>
>         Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>
>          ben@nostrum.com <mailto:ben@nostrum.com>        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org <mailto:ovli@tools.ietf.org>
>
>             Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
>
>         Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
>
>         Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>
>          docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
>
>         Severity:  Active WG    |
>
>          Document               |
>
>         -------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
>
>          
>
>         Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47> <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47>
>
>         dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/> <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>
>          
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         DiME mailing list
>
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>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>          
>
>         _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>          
>
>         Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>
>         pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>
>         a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>
>         Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>          
>
>         This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>
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>
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>
>         As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>
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>
>          
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
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>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
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>  
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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> Thank you.


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I agree that a
      clarification is needed on what it means to be "treated as is the
      OC-Validity-Duration AVP was not present".&nbsp; It would e better to
      say:<br>
      <small><br>
      </small></font>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
      charset=ISO-8859-1">
    <pre><div class="line" id="LC825"><big><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">&nbsp; "Invalid validity duration values are given the default value".</font>

</big><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><big>Steve</big></font>
<big>
</big></div></pre>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 11:29 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:10970_1392053371_52F90C7A_10970_2992_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497E39@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Hi Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">About the OC-Validity-Reduction AVP values
            greater than 24 hours, it is said that the default value 5s
            applies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I was therefore wondering if it should be also
            considered as an error and therefore discarded. It is a real
            open question. Not an issue per se as I'm fine with the
            existing text. I was reacting on the reason for change
            explained by Ben.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Lionel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 17:59<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction
                percentages greater than 100 should be ignored<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">It is
          possible, the range defined is zero to 24 hours.&nbsp; I think the
          text is correct as it says that a value out of this range
          should be ignored.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Hi Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>OK with this statement.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid OC-Validity-Duration value?<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>De : DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 7 f&eacute;vrier 2014 23:05<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&Agrave; : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>#47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>interpreted as 100."<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>to assume we know what the sender really intended.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Reporter:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Owner:&nbsp; draft-docdt-dime-<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ovli@tools.ietf.org">ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp; defect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Status:&nbsp; new<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Priority:&nbsp; minor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Milestone:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Component:&nbsp; draft-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Version:&nbsp; 1.0<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> docdt-dime-ovli&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Keywords:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Severity:&nbsp; Active WG&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> Document&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ticket URL: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>dime <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
      <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:45:13 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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What about my comment on the fact that irrelevant host report in presence o=
f a realm reporting agent should not be forwarded?

Lionel

Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange

Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> a =E9crit :



Lionel,

Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is perfectl=
y valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there are n=
o servers in overload.  This could happen in the case I mentioned where the=
 realm overload report is triggered by layer 3 congestion.

Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server overload,=
 but that isn't the only consideration.

My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is no re=
ason to do the host throttling if the request has already been throttled by=
 the realm report.
It should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.  This mig=
ht look something like the following:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
    If request is throttled:
      Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the destinatio=
n-host AVP
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    If host credits exist for the host indicated in the destination-host AV=
P:
      Decrement host credit by one
    else:
      Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Steve

On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
Hi Steve,

In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Ho=
st type OLR should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even rem=
oved as irrelevant.

And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than=
 the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, t=
he realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host shou=
ld apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.

By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between=
 the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".

Lionel

De : Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39
=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic target=
ed for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destinatio=
n-host avp.  Is that correct?

I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report should tak=
e precedence over the host overload report.

My reasoning is as follows:

- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.  Cal=
l it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the realm can be based =
on a number of factors including the health of individual servers, individu=
al agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.

- When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network is co=
ngested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to send realm ov=
erload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent to the re=
alm as a whole will be reduced.

In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that requests targeted=
 for a healthy server will be throttled.

I propose the logic should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
  If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)



The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested=
 for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is rece=
ived for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies,=
 *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.



Is it clearer?



Lioenl



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.o=
rg>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Do=
novan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely ex=
treme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at al=
l, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why shou=
ld a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not =
at all overloaded S1?

What is wrong with letting the client

-not throttle host-type requests to S1,

-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and

-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?



Isn't this what Lionel said below?

<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>





Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case

except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?



If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying

the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.



- Jouni





I am OK with Lionel's

"wording" here.



- Jouni









From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@or=
ange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM

To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing pr=
inciples: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destinati=
on-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is =
an explicit report for the destination-host.



Lioenl



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targe=
ted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it =
would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.



If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the int=
eraction between realm reports and host reports.



I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host secon=
d.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm o=
verload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction ne=
eded to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm=
 abatement would then be candidates for host overload.



Steve



On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibit=
ed for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm=
, whatever the nodes inside this realm?

If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reac=
ting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the=
 realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... exc=
ept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this de=
stination-host.



Does it make sense?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload

treatment of a given report type applies.

Proposal:



   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests

      for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value

         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.







   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to

      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.





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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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<pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma; c=
olor:black">What about my comment on the fact that irrelevant host report i=
n presence of a realm reporting agent should not be forwarded?

Lionel

Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange

Steve Donovan &lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt; a =E9crit&nbsp;:

</pre>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, serif">Lionel,<br>
<br>
Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp; It is per=
fectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there =
are no servers in overload.&nbsp; This could happen in the case I mentioned=
 where the realm overload report is triggered
 by layer 3 congestion.<br>
<br>
Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server overload,=
 but that isn't the only consideration.<br>
<br>
My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp; There is =
no reason to do the host throttling if the request has already been throttl=
ed by the realm report.<br>
It should be as follows:</font><br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.&nbsp; Thi=
s might look something like the following:<br>
</font><br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face=3D"Times New
        Roman, Times, serif">For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicat=
ed in the destination-host AVP<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the dest=
ination-host AVP:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request=
<br>
</font><br>
Steve<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a class=3D"moz-txt-lin=
k-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><style>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Hi Steve,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">In your =
example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Host type =
OLR should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or
 even removed as irrelevant.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">And in a=
 normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than the red=
uction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload,
 the realm (S1&#43;S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Hos=
t should apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">By the w=
ay, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between the fir=
st and the second conditions is an &quot;IF NOT&quot;.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Lionel</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</=
span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></=
b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;; color:windowtext"> Steve Donovan [<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-f=
reetext" href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonova=
ns.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:dime@=
ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we have agree=
ment that a realm report applies to all traffic targeted for that realm, in=
dependent of the presence or absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is =
that correct?<br>
<br>
I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload report shoul=
d take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
<br>
My reasoning is as follows:<br>
<br>
- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.&nbsp=
; Call it the &quot;realm overload authority&quot;.&nbsp; The health of the=
 realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of individu=
al servers, individual agents and the network connecting
 Diameter entities.<br>
<br>
- When this &quot;realm overload authority&quot; determines that the IP net=
work is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to sen=
d realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent=
 to the realm as a whole will be reduced.<br>
<br>
In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is likely that requests tar=
geted for a healthy server will be throttled.<br>
<br>
I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.<br>
<br>
Steve</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written &quot;except&q=
uot; :)</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requ=
ested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is=
 received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also app=
lies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Is it clearer?</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Lioenl </pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----</pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] </pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46</pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime=
@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</p=
re>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----</pre>
<pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] </pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM</pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</pre>
<pre>Cc: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</=
a></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlike=
ly extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded =
at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why=
 should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the=
 not at all overloaded S1?</pre>
<pre>What is wrong with letting the client</pre>
<pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,</pre>
<pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and</pre>
<pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?</pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Ok, maybe I misread the &quot;realm abatement is applied in any case</=
pre>
<pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host&quot;?<=
/pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying</pre>
<pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>- Jouni</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am OK with Lionel's</pre>
<pre>&quot;wording&quot; here.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>- Jouni</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">lionel.morand@orange.com</a></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM</pre>
<pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><=
/pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routi=
ng principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Dest=
ination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if ther=
e is an explicit report for the destination-host.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Lioenl</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan</pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56</pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></pre>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests =
targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implie=
s that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specifi=
ed.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify th=
e interaction between realm reports and host reports.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host =
second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result =
of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the re=
duction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host tha=
t survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Steve</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel=
.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:</pre>
<pre>The case &quot;Realm&quot; as described below raises another question:=
 is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for =
the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?</pre>
<pre>If not, only OLR with the report type &quot;realm&quot; would be recei=
ved by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply=
 always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the=
 request... except if an explicit report with the type &quot;Host&quot; as =
been received for this destination-host.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Does it make sense?</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Lionel</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----</pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] </pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55</pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN</pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></pre>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests over=
load</pre>
<pre>treatment of a given report type applies.</pre>
<pre>Proposal:</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shoul=
d apply to requests</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditio=
ns are true:</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present =
in the request and its value</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of =
the Origin-Host AVP of the received message</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shou=
ld apply to</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following=
 conditions are true:</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent i=
n the request.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;</pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
/pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.</pre>
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<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
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<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;</pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
/pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.</pre>
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been modified, changed or falsified.</pre>
<pre>Thank you.</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
<pre>&nbsp;</pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
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Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

> Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Ben,
>>=20
>> Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want =
to
>>>>> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing =
overload
>>>>> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement =
algorithm.
>>>>> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an =
overload
>>>>> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not =
make
>>>>> sense for all future ones.)
>>>>=20
>>>> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the =
reason.
>>>> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending =
the
>>>> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two =
reasons:
>>>=20
>>> 1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is =
specific to algorithms that use reduction percentage.)
>>>=20
>>> 2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes =
semantically identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This =
allows a simpler implementation.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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References: <066.d4a6efb42ff3bd328e8b56b872c4e1a7@trac.tools.ietf.org> <13009_1391526065_52F100B1_13009_2160_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4770B0@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <41DC79BF-FFD9-4C17-B61D-8BDFE7D446A8@gmail.com> <18673_1392030932_52F8B4D4_18673_1082_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4970F3@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <0D5BD3F3-8797-4479-BC3D-61671D8D8AFF@gmail.com> <24932_1392032199_52F8B9C7_24932_4247_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49718B@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F8EB36.9050501@usdonovans.com> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D202663CA4@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <52F8F6FB.4070306@usdonovans.com> <30449_1392050784_52F90260_30449_13393_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497B94@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
To: lionel.morand@orange.com
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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+1

On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:46 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> Thank you for the summary.
> =20
> I'm fine with all the bullets! J
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 16:58
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
> =20
> I agree it needs to be stated in the draft.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/10/14 9:44 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
> Hi Steve
> =20
> Thanks to have summarize this topic. I agree with your various =
statements that reflect in particular my own comments.
> =20
> About mandatory for the default (loss) algorithm, effectively we  need =
this for interoperability. Cannot it be stated in the draft? Future RFCs =
will have to be compatible with this .
> =20
> Best regards
> =20
> JJacques  =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 16:08
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
> =20
> I'll attempt to summarize where we are on this.  If this is agreed to =
then the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.  Some of this =
is already in the draft, some of it will require changes.
>=20
> - The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to =
include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change =
required here.
>=20
> - A reporting node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be =
sent to a reacting node from the set of abatement algorithms included in =
the OC-Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.
>=20
> - If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the =
reacting node must be loss.
>=20
> - The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with =
the loss algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>=20
> - If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm =
other then loss, the reacting node must include the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP with a single algorithm indicated in the =
OC-Feature-Vector AVP.=20
>=20
> - New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing =
OC-OLR AVP.  The new algorithms may also create a new overload report =
AVP if that makes the most sense.
>=20
> - The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement =
algorithm.  Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the =
mandatory to implement algorithm.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> =20
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
> =20
> =20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Jouni,
> =20
> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
> =20
> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
> abatement algorithm..=20
> =20
> [LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There =
is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the =
OLR sent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that =
you could have is "use either one or the other".
> =20
> This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting =
node
> announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for =
the
> sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.
> =20
> [LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector =
MAY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the =
common algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.
> =20
> The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to =
support more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR =
with another algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use =
with the given OLR.
> =20
> I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in =
OLRs..
> =20
> [LM] I was not proposing such idea :)
> =20
> - Jouni
> =20
> =20
> =20
> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along =
with the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
> =20
> [LM] Right. No issue here.
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
> =20
> =20
> On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> =20
> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to =
solve it is not the correct one.
> =20
> Agree.
> =20
> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with =
several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with =
the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
> =20
> The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.
> =20
> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it =
is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given =
algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 =
AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to =
indicate the abatement to perform.
> =20
> My intention was always allow:
> =20
>  client announces  ABC
>  server supports    BCD
>  server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
>  alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies
> =20
> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
> =20
> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
> abatement algorithm..=20
> =20
> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along =
with the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
> =20
> - Jouni
> =20
> =20
> Lionel=20
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
> =20
> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
> =20
> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism =
in
> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP
> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the =
reacting
> DOIC endpoint.
> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node =
can do
> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
> messages.
> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no =
other
> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not =
receiving
> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
> =20
> a) There is no overload
> b) DOIC is not supported
> =20
> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between =
these
> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>   If there is no single matching
>   capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>   DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>   messages with this specific reacting node.
> =20
> This however is inconsistent.
> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a =
different
> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the =
role
> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role =
since
> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
> Supported-Features AVPs.
> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  =
draft-ietf-
> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
> =20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>    Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
> =20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
> =20
> =20
> =
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> =20
> =
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> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
> =20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> =20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
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delete this message and its attachments.
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been modified, changed or falsified.
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> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
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> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> =20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
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Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.

- Jouni

On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the =
OC-Supported-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means =
that the AVP must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting =
node.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>>=20
>>  The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>>  Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a =
capabilities
>>  announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime =
to
>>  Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different =
capability
>>  sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for =
non-session
>>  applications or pseudo-sessions.)
>>=20
>>  I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are =
stateless,
>>  that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a =
response must
>>  match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
>>  Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set =
associated
>>  with a capabilities set.
>>=20
>>  (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting =
agents. If
>>  we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
>>  negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


From ben@nostrum.com  Mon Feb 10 14:51:06 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
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It would be easier to implement if there was a single AVP that indicated =
support (or lack of support by its absence), rather than having more =
than one, any of which indicate support.

On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:27 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:

>=20
> Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
> We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the =
OC-Supported-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means =
that the AVP must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting =
node.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>>> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>>>=20
>>> The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>>> Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a =
capabilities
>>> announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime =
to
>>> Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different =
capability
>>> sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for =
non-session
>>> applications or pseudo-sessions.)
>>>=20
>>> I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are =
stateless,
>>> that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a =
response must
>>> match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
>>> Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set =
associated
>>> with a capabilities set.
>>>=20
>>> (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting =
agents. If
>>> we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
>>> negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From ben@nostrum.com  Mon Feb 10 15:55:50 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related =
discussion about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 =
hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as =
if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity =
duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not =
present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload =
condition has ended and that the reporting node is in a stable =
condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one =
hundred (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The =
value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node =
is under a severe load and ceases to process any new messages. The =
Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be present in an overload report that uses =
the default abatement algorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the =
Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no =
overload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a =
OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate the end of an =
overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> Just post it here.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Ben,
>>>=20
>>> Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen =
<jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want =
to
>>>>>> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing =
overload
>>>>>> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement =
algorithm.
>>>>>> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an =
overload
>>>>>> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might =
not make
>>>>>> sense for all future ones.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the =
reason.
>>>>> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending =
the
>>>>> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two =
reasons:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is =
specific to algorithms that use reduction percentage.)
>>>>=20
>>>> 2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes =
semantically identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This =
allows a simpler implementation.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>So, here's some proposed =
text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussion about handling =
invalid values):</div><div><br></div><div>Section 4.5, first paragraph, =
last 2 =
sentences:</div><div><br></div><div>Old:</div><div><br></div><div>Validity=
 duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) =
MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the =
OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not =
present.</div><div><br></div><div>New:</div><div><br></div><div>Validity =
duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration =
values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present. =
A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has =
ended and that the reporting node is in a stable =
condition.</div><div><br></div><div>Section 4.7, 2nd =
paragraph:</div><div><br></div><div>Old:</div><div><br></div><div><div>&nb=
sp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one =
hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100. =
&nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the =
reporting node is under a severe load and ceases to process any new =
messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be present in an overload =
report that uses the default abatement =
algorithm.</div></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 =
0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div>Note that there is no zero =
(0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would =
logically indicate that no overload abatement is requested. Instead, =
reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of zero (0) to =
indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section =
4.5]</div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><br>On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni =
Korhonen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Just post it =
here.<br><br><br><br>On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Okay. Does that mean we should =
assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br><br>On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 =
AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br>Ben,<br><br>Propose some =
text and we can see how it fits in.<br><br>- Jouni<br><br><br>On Feb 10, =
2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br>On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, =
Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br>On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, =
dime issue tracker &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">#45: Why is a validity =
duration of 0 disallowed?<br><br>Section 4.5 disallows a validity =
duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>disallow that? It would allow a =
quick way of ending any existing overload<br>condition without worrying =
about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<br>(We currently use a =
reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>condition--but that's =
specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>sense for all =
future ones.)<br></blockquote><br>Right. Avoiding two ways of ending =
overload condition was the reason.<br>I am OK to have validity duration =
0 as an additional method ending the<br>overload condition based on the =
reasoning above.<br><br></blockquote><br>I would go further and make =
duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons:<br><br>1) It's =
algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to =
algorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br><br>2) Explicit signaling =
of the end of an overload condition becomes semantically identical to =
the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows a simpler =
implementation.<br><br><br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br></blockquote>=
<br>_______________________________________________<br>DiME mailing =
list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/dime<br></blockquote><br></body></html>=

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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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I don't quite agree with where I think this thread is going, on two =
points:

1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially) =
reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload. I =
don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge, but I =
suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers in some =
way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I might have =
a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a higher (or no) =
limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can thus speak for =
themselves.)

2) It's clumsy to have to look at an external (to OC-OLR) AVP to find =
out the algorithm. I think the actual algorithm for a particular report =
should be indicated in OC-OLR, not OC-Supported-Features at the root of =
the message.


Now, separate from those points, I think we should consider whether it's =
okay for a reporting nodes to switch algorithms mid-stream, vs pick an =
algorithm and stick with it. Right now, I think we effectively allow a =
reporting node to send an OLR for one algorithm in one answer, then =
another algorithm in the next, even for the same reacting node. If so, =
we need to define what it means when that happens.

For example, if I receive an OLR with the "loss" algorithm, and another =
with the "rate" algorithm from the same server, does the second replace =
the first? Do I now have two overload state entries that I need to =
"stack"?

Thanks!

Ben.

On Feb 10, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> I'll attempt to summarize where we are on this.  If this is agreed to =
then the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.  Some of this =
is already in the draft, some of it will require changes.
>=20
> - The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to =
include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change =
required here.
>=20
> - A reporting node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be =
sent to a reacting node from the set of abatement algorithms included in =
the OC-Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.
>=20
> - If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the =
reacting node must be loss.
>=20
> - The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with =
the loss algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>=20
> - If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm =
other then loss, the reacting node must include the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP with a single algorithm indicated in the =
OC-Feature-Vector AVP.=20
>=20
> - New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing =
OC-OLR AVP.  The new algorithms may also create a new overload report =
AVP if that makes the most sense.
>=20
> - The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement =
algorithm.  Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the =
mandatory to implement algorithm.
>=20
> Steve=20
>=20
> On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jouni Korhonen [
>> mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com
>> ]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc :=20
>> dime@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM,=20
>> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Hi Jouni,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>>>>=20
>>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>>> abatement algorithm..=20
>>>=20
>>> [LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). =
There is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with =
the OLR sent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info =
that you could have is "use either one or the other".
>>>=20
>> This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting =
node
>> announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for =
the
>> sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.
>>=20
>> [LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the =
OC-Feature-Vector MAY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to =
use, algo part of the common algos between the reporting node and the =
reacting node.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to =
support more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR =
with another algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use =
with the given OLR.
>>>=20
>> I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in =
OLRs..
>>=20
>> [LM] I was not proposing such idea :)
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP =
along with the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>=20
>>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>>=20
>>> [LM] Right. No issue here.
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Jouni Korhonen [
>>> mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com
>>> ]=20
>>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04
>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc :=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM,=20
>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way =
to solve it is not the correct one.
>>>>=20
>>> Agree.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report =
with several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along =
with the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>>>>=20
>>> The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, =
it is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one =
given algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will =
advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector =
cannot be used to indicate the abatement to perform.
>>>>=20
>>> My intention was always allow:
>>>=20
>>>  client announces  ABC
>>>  server supports    BCD
>>>  server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
>>>  alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>>>>=20
>>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>>> abatement algorithm..=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP =
along with the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>=20
>>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Lionel=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>>> ]=20
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>>=20
>>>> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>>=20
>>>> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation =
mechanism in
>>>> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP
>>>> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the =
reacting
>>>> DOIC endpoint.
>>>> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node =
can do
>>>> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to =
allow
>>>> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
>>>> messages.
>>>> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
>>>> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no =
other
>>>> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs =
from
>>>> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly =
indicates
>>>> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not =
receiving
>>>> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two =
reasons:
>>>>=20
>>>> a) There is no overload
>>>> b) DOIC is not supported
>>>>=20
>>>> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between =
these
>>>> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both =
cases.
>>>> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>>>>   If there is no single matching
>>>>   capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>>>>   DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>>>>   messages with this specific reacting node.
>>>>=20
>>>> This however is inconsistent.
>>>> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
>>>> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
>>>> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a =
different
>>>> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
>>>> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take =
the role
>>>> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role =
since
>>>> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
>>>> Supported-Features AVPs.
>>>> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  =
draft-ietf-
>>>> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
>>>> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or =
even
>>>> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>>> Reporter: =20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>   |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>>>>    Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
>>>> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
>>>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
>>>> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
>>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> Ticket URL:=20
>>>> <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
>>>>=20
>>>> dime=20
>>>> <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>=20
>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>=20
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>=20
>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>> Thank you.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>>=20
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 17:27:24 -0600
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Cc: ben@nostrum.com, dime@ietf.org, draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
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It has been my assumption that the OC-OLR AVP would only be allowed in
answer messages.  Is this the consensus?

Steve

On 2/10/14 4:27 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the 
> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
> We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.
>
> - Jouni
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>> My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the OC-Supported-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means that the AVP must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting node.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>>> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>>>
>>>  The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>>>  Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a capabilities
>>>  announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime to
>>>  Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different capability
>>>  sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for non-session
>>>  applications or pseudo-sessions.)
>>>
>>>  I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are stateless,
>>>  that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a response must
>>>  match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
>>>  Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set associated
>>>  with a capabilities set.
>>>
>>>  (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting agents. If
>>>  we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
>>>  negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>>>
>>>
>


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">It has been my assumption
      that the OC-OLR AVP would only be allowed in answer messages.&nbsp; Is
      this the consensus?<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 4:27 PM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:4208F877-455F-4A28-BB15-FA3C5B3A8795@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the 
request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.

- Jouni

On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the OC-Supported-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means that the AVP must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting node.

Steve

On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">#49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought

 The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
 Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a capabilities
 announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime to
 Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different capability
 sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for non-session
 applications or pseudo-sessions.)

 I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are stateless,
 that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a response must
 match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
 Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set associated
 with a capabilities set.

 (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting agents. If
 we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
 negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )


</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------080901070408020301050604--


From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 22:45:28 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
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Your assumption is correct. "Other DOIC AVPs" is a future thing.
Currently we have no other DOIC AVPs for requests. It is just I
asking the same semantics for the OC-Supported-Features for both
directions.

- Jouni


On Feb 11, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> It has been my assumption that the OC-OLR AVP would only be allowed in =
answer messages.  Is this the consensus?
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/10/14 4:27 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>> Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
>> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
>> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
>> We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan=20
>> <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the =
OC-Supported-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means =
that the AVP must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting =
node.
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>>>>=20
>>>>  The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>>>>  Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a =
capabilities
>>>>  announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that =
lifetime to
>>>>  Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different =
capability
>>>>  sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for =
non-session
>>>>  applications or pseudo-sessions.)
>>>>=20
>>>>  I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are =
stateless,
>>>>  that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a =
response must
>>>>  match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
>>>>  Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set =
associated
>>>>  with a capabilities set.
>>>>=20
>>>>  (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting =
agents. If
>>>>  we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
>>>>  negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>=20
>=20


From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 23:37:10 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
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Forgot to say that this is of course debatable. My preference
is/was to have the same behavior both directions but won't be
persistent on that.

- Jouni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:

>=20
> Your assumption is correct. "Other DOIC AVPs" is a future thing.
> Currently we have no other DOIC AVPs for requests. It is just I
> asking the same semantics for the OC-Supported-Features for both
> directions.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> It has been my assumption that the OC-OLR AVP would only be allowed =
in answer messages.  Is this the consensus?
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/10/14 4:27 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>>> Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
>>> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
>>> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
>>> We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan=20
>>> <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the =
OC-Supported-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means =
that the AVP must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting =
node.
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>>>>> Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a =
capabilities
>>>>> announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that =
lifetime to
>>>>> Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different =
capability
>>>>> sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for =
non-session
>>>>> applications or pseudo-sessions.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are =
stateless,
>>>>> that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a =
response must
>>>>> match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
>>>>> Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set =
associated
>>>>> with a capabilities set.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting =
agents. If
>>>>> we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
>>>>> negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Tue Feb 11 01:37:24 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Steve,

I do not agree.

e.g.=20
1. reacting node sends Request with application ID =3D x to reporting node
2. reporting node sends back answer (containing an OLR) with application ID=
 =3D x
3. reacting node now may very well send  a new request with application ID =
=3D y to the reporting node without breaking any Diameter rules.=20
The new request sent in step 3 is NOT subject to throttling according to th=
e OLR received in step 2.
I hope this is not contentious.
In order to provide a complete list of conditions to say when an OLR of a g=
iven type applies to a new request, we should not let c) go by the board.

Ulrich


=20


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:44 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers=20
> to the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.
> <Ulrich>yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not harm to =
keep c)</Ulrich>
SRD> I don't see the reason for including this statement.  By
definition, an overload report
applies to the application ID in the answer message.  There is no way
for the application-id
in the answer message to be different than the application-id in the
request message without
breaking Diameter.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:39 PM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munic=
h)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic target=
ed for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destinatio=
n-host avp.  Is that correct?
<Ulrich> NO, again:

..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% ov=
erloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do =
a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overload=
ed S1?

What is wrong with letting the client

-not throttle host-type requests to S1,

-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and

-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
</Ulrich>


I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report should tak=
e precedence over the host overload report.

My reasoning is as follows:

- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.  Cal=
l it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the realm can be based =
on a number of factors including the health of individual servers, individu=
al agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.

- When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network is co=
ngested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to send realm ov=
erload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent to the re=
alm as a whole will be reduced.

In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that requests targeted=
 for a healthy server will be throttled.

I propose the logic should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
  If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)



The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested=
 for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is rece=
ived for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies,=
 *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.



Is it clearer?



Lioenl



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.o=
rg>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Do=
novan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely ex=
treme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at al=
l, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why shou=
ld a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not =
at all overloaded S1?

What is wrong with letting the client

-not throttle host-type requests to S1,

-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and

-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?



Isn't this what Lionel said below?

<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>





Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case

except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?



If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying

the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.



- Jouni





I am OK with Lionel's

"wording" here.



- Jouni









From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@or=
ange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM

To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing pr=
inciples: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destinati=
on-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is =
an explicit report for the destination-host.



Lioenl



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targe=
ted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it =
would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.



If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the int=
eraction between realm reports and host reports.



I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host secon=
d.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm o=
verload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction ne=
eded to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm=
 abatement would then be candidates for host overload.



Steve



On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibit=
ed for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm=
, whatever the nodes inside this realm?

If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reac=
ting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the=
 realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... exc=
ept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this de=
stination-host.



Does it make sense?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload

treatment of a given report type applies.

Proposal:



   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests

      for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value

         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.







   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to

      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.





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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.






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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
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<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 3:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - D=
E/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we have agree=
ment that a realm report applies to all traffic targeted for that realm, in=
dependent of the presence or absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is =
that correct?<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; NO, again:<o:p></o:p></span></i><=
/b></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overl=
oaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25=
%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests =
to the not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
<br>
I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; </span>The realm overload repor=
t should take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
<br>
My reasoning is as follows:<br>
<br>
- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.&nbsp=
; Call it the &quot;realm overload authority&quot;.&nbsp; The health of the=
 realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of individu=
al servers, individual agents and the network connecting
 Diameter entities.<br>
<br>
- When this &quot;realm overload authority&quot; determines that the IP net=
work is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to sen=
d realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent=
 to the realm as a whole will be reduced.<br>
<br>
In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is likely that requests tar=
geted for a healthy server will be throttled.<br>
<br>
I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written &quot;except&q=
uot; :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requ=
ested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is=
 received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also app=
lies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime=
@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</=
a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlike=
ly extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded =
at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why=
 should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the=
 not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ok, maybe I misread the &quot;realm abatement is applied in any case<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host&quot;?<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;wording&quot; here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routi=
ng principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Dest=
ination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if ther=
e is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests =
targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implie=
s that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specifi=
ed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify th=
e interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host =
second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result =
of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the re=
duction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host tha=
t survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel=
.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The case &quot;Realm&quot; as described below raises another question:=
 is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for =
the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If not, only OLR with the report type &quot;realm&quot; would be recei=
ved by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply=
 always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the=
 request... except if an explicit report with the type &quot;Host&quot; as =
been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests over=
load<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shoul=
d apply to requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditio=
ns are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present =
in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of =
the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shou=
ld apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following=
 conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent i=
n the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munic=
h)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Lionel,

Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is perfectl=
y valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there are n=
o servers in overload.
<Ulrich> I don't think so</Ulrich>
  This could happen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload report=
 is triggered by layer 3 congestion.

Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server overload,=
 but that isn't the only consideration.
<Ulrich> all considerations other than server overload are (or should be) o=
ut of scope. (May be covered by agent overload control)</Ulrich>

My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is no re=
ason to do the host throttling if the request has already been throttled by=
 the realm report.
It should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.  This mig=
ht look something like the following:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
    If request is throttled:
      Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the destinatio=
n-host AVP
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    If host credits exist for the host indicated in the destination-host AV=
P:
      Decrement host credit by one
    else:
      Apply host based throttling logic to that request
<Ulrich> sounds quite complicated</Ulrich>
Steve
On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
Hi Steve,

In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Ho=
st type OLR should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even rem=
oved as irrelevant.

And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than=
 the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, t=
he realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host shou=
ld apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.

By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between=
 the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".

Lionel

De : Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39
=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich=
)
Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic target=
ed for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destinatio=
n-host avp.  Is that correct?

I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report should tak=
e precedence over the host overload report.

My reasoning is as follows:

- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.  Cal=
l it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the realm can be based =
on a number of factors including the health of individual servers, individu=
al agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.

- When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network is co=
ngested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to send realm ov=
erload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent to the re=
alm as a whole will be reduced.

In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that requests targeted=
 for a healthy server will be throttled.

I propose the logic should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
  If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)



The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested=
 for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is rece=
ived for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies,=
 *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.



Is it clearer?



Lioenl



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.o=
rg>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Do=
novan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely ex=
treme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at al=
l, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why shou=
ld a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not =
at all overloaded S1?

What is wrong with letting the client

-not throttle host-type requests to S1,

-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and

-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?



Isn't this what Lionel said below?

<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>





Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case

except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?



If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying

the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.



- Jouni





I am OK with Lionel's

"wording" here.



- Jouni









From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@or=
ange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM

To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing pr=
inciples: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destinati=
on-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is =
an explicit report for the destination-host.



Lioenl



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targe=
ted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it =
would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.



If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the int=
eraction between realm reports and host reports.



I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host secon=
d.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm o=
verload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction ne=
eded to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm=
 abatement would then be candidates for host overload.



Steve



On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibit=
ed for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm=
, whatever the nodes inside this realm?

If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reac=
ting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the=
 realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... exc=
ept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this de=
stination-host.



Does it make sense?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload

treatment of a given report type applies.

Proposal:



   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests

      for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value

         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.







   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to

      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.





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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.






___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - D=
E/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Lionel,<br>
<br>
Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp; It is per=
fectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there =
are no servers in overload.<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; I don&#8217;t think so&lt;/Ulrich=
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
&nbsp; This could happen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload r=
eport is triggered by layer 3 congestion.<br>
<br>
</span>Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server ov=
erload, but that isn't the only consideration.<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; all considerations other than ser=
ver overload are (or should be) out of scope. (May be covered by agent
 overload control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp; </span>Th=
ere is no reason to do the host throttling if the request has already been =
throttled by the realm report.<br>
It should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.&nbsp;
<span lang=3D"EN-US">This might look something like the following:<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;se=
rif&quot;">For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicat=
ed in the destination-host AVP<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the dest=
ination-host AVP:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request=
<br>
</span><b><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; so=
unds quite complicated&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><b=
r>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In your ex=
ample, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Host type OL=
R should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even
 removed as irrelevant.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And in a n=
ormal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than the reduc=
tion needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload,
 the realm (S1&#43;S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Hos=
t should apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">By the way=
, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between the first=
 and the second conditions is an &quot;IF NOT&quot;.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Steve Donovan [<a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@us=
donovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we have agree=
ment that a realm report applies to all traffic targeted for that realm, in=
dependent of the presence or absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is =
that correct?<br>
<br>
I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload report shoul=
d take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
<br>
My reasoning is as follows:<br>
<br>
- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.&nbsp=
; Call it the &quot;realm overload authority&quot;.&nbsp; The health of the=
 realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of individu=
al servers, individual agents and the network connecting
 Diameter entities.<br>
<br>
- When this &quot;realm overload authority&quot; determines that the IP net=
work is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to sen=
d realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent=
 to the realm as a whole will be reduced.<br>
<br>
In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is likely that requests tar=
geted for a healthy server will be throttled.<br>
<br>
I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written &quot;except&q=
uot; :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requ=
ested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is=
 received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also app=
lies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime=
@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</=
a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlike=
ly extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded =
at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why=
 should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the=
 not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ok, maybe I misread the &quot;realm abatement is applied in any case<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host&quot;?<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;wording&quot; here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routi=
ng principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Dest=
ination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if ther=
e is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests =
targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implie=
s that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specifi=
ed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify th=
e interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host =
second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result =
of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the re=
duction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host tha=
t survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel=
.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The case &quot;Realm&quot; as described below raises another question:=
 is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for =
the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If not, only OLR with the report type &quot;realm&quot; would be recei=
ved by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply=
 always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the=
 request... except if an explicit report with the type &quot;Host&quot; as =
been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests over=
load<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shoul=
d apply to requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditio=
ns are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present =
in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of =
the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shou=
ld apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following=
 conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent i=
n the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Steve,

I don't understand one aspect.
Why should the request be throttled with realm report when the request is t=
argeted to a particular host within the realm.
Can this request be routed to another host in that realm? If not, the reque=
st should be subjected to the throttling based on the host report.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 11:22 PM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munic=
h)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Lionel,

Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is perfectl=
y valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there are n=
o servers in overload.  This could happen in the case I mentioned where the=
 realm overload report is triggered by layer 3 congestion.

Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server overload,=
 but that isn't the only consideration.

My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is no re=
ason to do the host throttling if the request has already been throttled by=
 the realm report.
It should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.  This mig=
ht look something like the following:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
    If request is throttled:
      Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the destinatio=
n-host AVP
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    If host credits exist for the host indicated in the destination-host AV=
P:
      Decrement host credit by one
    else:
      Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Steve
On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
Hi Steve,

In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Ho=
st type OLR should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even rem=
oved as irrelevant.

And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than=
 the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, t=
he realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host shou=
ld apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.

By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between=
 the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".

Lionel

De : Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39
=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich=
)
Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic target=
ed for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destinatio=
n-host avp.  Is that correct?

I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report should tak=
e precedence over the host overload report.

My reasoning is as follows:

- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.  Cal=
l it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the realm can be based =
on a number of factors including the health of individual servers, individu=
al agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.

- When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network is co=
ngested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to send realm ov=
erload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent to the re=
alm as a whole will be reduced.

In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that requests targeted=
 for a healthy server will be throttled.

I propose the logic should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
  If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)



The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested=
 for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is rece=
ived for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies,=
 *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.



Is it clearer?



Lioenl



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.o=
rg>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Do=
novan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely ex=
treme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at al=
l, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why shou=
ld a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not =
at all overloaded S1?

What is wrong with letting the client

-not throttle host-type requests to S1,

-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and

-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?



Isn't this what Lionel said below?

<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>





Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case

except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?



If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying

the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.



- Jouni





I am OK with Lionel's

"wording" here.



- Jouni









From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@or=
ange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM

To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing pr=
inciples: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destinati=
on-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is =
an explicit report for the destination-host.



Lioenl



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targe=
ted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it =
would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.



If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the int=
eraction between realm reports and host reports.



I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host secon=
d.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm o=
verload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction ne=
eded to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm=
 abatement would then be candidates for host overload.



Steve



On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibit=
ed for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm=
, whatever the nodes inside this realm?

If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reac=
ting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the=
 realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... exc=
ept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this de=
stination-host.



Does it make sense?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload

treatment of a given report type applies.

Proposal:



   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests

      for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value

         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.







   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to

      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.





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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.






___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

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te this message and its attachments.

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Steve,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I don&#8217;t understand =
one aspect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Why should the request be=
 throttled with realm report when the request is targeted to a particular h=
ost within the realm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Can this request be route=
d to another host in that realm? If not, the request should be subjected to=
 the throttling based on the host report.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 11:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - D=
E/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Lionel,<br>
<br>
Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp; It is per=
fectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there =
are no servers in overload.&nbsp; This could happen in the case I mentioned=
 where the realm overload report is triggered
 by layer 3 congestion.<br>
<br>
Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server overload,=
 but that isn't the only consideration.<br>
<br>
My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp; There is =
no reason to do the host throttling if the request has already been throttl=
ed by the realm report.<br>
It should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.&nbsp; Thi=
s might look something like the following:<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Times">For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicat=
ed in the destination-host AVP<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the dest=
ination-host AVP:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request=
<br>
</span><br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In your example, if an ag=
ent has a better knowledge than the server, the Host type OLR should not be=
 sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even removed as
 irrelevant.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And in a normal case, the=
 reduction for the realm will be likely lower than the reduction needed for=
 a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm
 (S1&#43;S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host should a=
pply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">By the way, in your propo=
sed logic, it is not clear if the relation between the first and the second=
 conditions is an &quot;IF NOT&quot;.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Steve Donovan [<a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@us=
donovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we have agree=
ment that a realm report applies to all traffic targeted for that realm, in=
dependent of the presence or absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is =
that correct?<br>
<br>
I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload report shoul=
d take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
<br>
My reasoning is as follows:<br>
<br>
- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.&nbsp=
; Call it the &quot;realm overload authority&quot;.&nbsp; The health of the=
 realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of individu=
al servers, individual agents and the network connecting
 Diameter entities.<br>
<br>
- When this &quot;realm overload authority&quot; determines that the IP net=
work is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to sen=
d realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent=
 to the realm as a whole will be reduced.<br>
<br>
In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is likely that requests tar=
geted for a healthy server will be throttled.<br>
<br>
I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written &quot;except&q=
uot; :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requ=
ested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is=
 received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also app=
lies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime=
@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</=
a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlike=
ly extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded =
at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why=
 should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the=
 not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ok, maybe I misread the &quot;realm abatement is applied in any case<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host&quot;?<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;wording&quot; here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routi=
ng principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Dest=
ination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if ther=
e is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests =
targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implie=
s that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specifi=
ed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify th=
e interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host =
second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result =
of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the re=
duction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host tha=
t survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel=
.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The case &quot;Realm&quot; as described below raises another question:=
 is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for =
the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If not, only OLR with the report type &quot;realm&quot; would be recei=
ved by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply=
 always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the=
 request... except if an explicit report with the type &quot;Host&quot; as =
been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests over=
load<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shoul=
d apply to requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditio=
ns are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present =
in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of =
the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shou=
ld apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following=
 conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent i=
n the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
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<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
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</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
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<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
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From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Tue Feb 11 02:03:05 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
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Hello all,

Once we have defined a default value for the Validity-Duration, I think it =
is important to do not discard overload report with an invalid value, but u=
se default one.
Take into account reception of a valid OLR by a client is important, and if=
 discarded we should assure that a new valid OLR is received.

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 18:59
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 shou=
ld be ignored

I agree that a clarification is needed on what it means to be "treated as i=
s the OC-Validity-Duration AVP was not present".  It would e better to say:

  "Invalid validity duration values are given the default value".



Steve


On 2/10/14 11:29 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
Hi Steve,

About the OC-Validity-Reduction AVP values greater than 24 hours, it is sai=
d that the default value 5s applies.

I was therefore wondering if it should be also considered as an error and t=
herefore discarded. It is a real open question. Not an issue per se as I'm =
fine with the existing text. I was reacting on the reason for change explai=
ned by Ben.

Regards,

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 17:59
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 shoul=
d be ignored

It is possible, the range defined is zero to 24 hours.  I think the text is=
 correct as it says that a value out of this range should be ignored.

Steve
On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:



On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com> wrote:



Hi Ben,



OK with this statement.

But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should apply=
 for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?





I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid OC-Va=
lidity-Duration value?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:05

=C0 : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@too=
ls.ietf.org>; ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be=
 ignored



#47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored



Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are

interpreted as 100."



An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indicates

incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not safe

to assume we know what the sender really intended.



--

-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-

 ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org<mail=
to:ovli@tools.ietf.org>

    Type:  defect       |     Status:  new

Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:

Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0

 docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:

Severity:  Active WG    |

 Document               |

-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------



Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47><http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47>

dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/><http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.





_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Once we have defined a de=
fault value for the Validity-Duration, I think it is important to do not di=
scard overload report with an invalid value, but use default
 one.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Take into account recepti=
on of a valid OLR by a client is important, and if discarded we should assu=
re that a new valid OLR is received.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 18:59<br>
<b>To:</b> lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 1=
00 should be ignored<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I agree that a clarif=
ication is needed on what it means to be &quot;treated as is the OC-Validit=
y-Duration AVP was not present&quot;.&nbsp; It would e better to say:<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<div id=3D"LC825">
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot=
;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp; &quot;Invalid validity duration values are give=
n the default value&quot;.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot=
;,&quot;serif&quot;">Steve</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 11:29 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">About the OC-Validity-Red=
uction AVP values greater than 24 hours, it is said that the default value =
5s applies.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I was therefore wondering=
 if it should be also considered as an error and therefore discarded. It is=
 a real open question. Not an issue per se as I'm fine with
 the existing text. I was reacting on the reason for change explained by Be=
n.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org=
">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 17:59<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater th=
an 100 should be ignored</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">It is possible, the r=
ange defined is zero to 24 hours.&nbsp; I think the text is correct as it s=
ays that a value out of this range should be ignored.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Hi Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>OK with this statement.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should =
apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid =
OC-Validity-Duration value?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:05<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-do=
cdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@no=
strum.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 shou=
ld be ignored<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Section 4.7 says &quot; [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100=
 are<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>interpreted as 100.&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value indic=
ates<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not s=
afe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to assume we know what the sender really intended.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-------------------------&#43;----------------------------------------=
---------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporter:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Owner:&nbsp; draft-=
docdt-dime-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:ovli@tools.ietf.org">=
ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp; defect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Status:&nbsp; new<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Priority:&nbsp; minor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp=
; Milestone:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Component:&nbsp; draft-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; Version:&nbsp; 1.0<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> docdt-dime-ovli&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Keywords:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Severity:&nbsp; Active WG&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Document&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-------------------------&#43;----------------------------------------=
---------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ticket URL: <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/=
47">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47&gt;</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>dime <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.=
org/wg/dime/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
Thread-Index: AQHPJr46nxbg/VMhP0+Nj88X4tUoB5qvz1dQ
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:06:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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On 1), the reacting node will know that the server is DOIC-enabled when rec=
eiving the Supported-Features AVP, whatever the content of this AVP. When n=
o OLR is sent, I think that there is nothing preventing a reporting node to=
 announce all

On 2), honestly, I don't see the need for trying to keep a single AVP for a=
ll the possible abatements, especially if we are saying that the overload c=
ontrol is defined per application.
I think that there is value to try to reuse the same algo across applicatio=
n but not so try to reuse the same AVP across algos.

I do not foresee 1000 different algos defined for Diameter systems. And if =
it is, defining one OC-OLR AVP per algo is not an issue. We are not running=
 out of AVP codes. The AVP code itself is sufficient to indicate the algo t=
o use i.e. "this is an overload report for algo x". And each application wi=
ll explain anyhow how to use this overload report.

The main conclusions would be to be able to:
- Get rid of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer containing an OC-OLR A=
VP.
- get rid of the sequence number in the OC-Supported-Feature AVP in all the=
 requests and in the answer when the OC-Supported-features AVP is including=
 for capabilities discovery.

Regards,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Ben Campbell
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 01:14
=C0=A0: Steve Donovan
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org list
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es

I don't quite agree with where I think this thread is going, on two points:

1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially) reportin=
g node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload. I don't want =
to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge, but I suspect implem=
entations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers in some way differently =
than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I might have a configured rate =
limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a higher (or no) limit for peers that are=
 known to support DOIC (and can thus speak for themselves.)

2) It's clumsy to have to look at an external (to OC-OLR) AVP to find out t=
he algorithm. I think the actual algorithm for a particular report should b=
e indicated in OC-OLR, not OC-Supported-Features at the root of the message.


Now, separate from those points, I think we should consider whether it's ok=
ay for a reporting nodes to switch algorithms mid-stream, vs pick an algori=
thm and stick with it. Right now, I think we effectively allow a reporting =
node to send an OLR for one algorithm in one answer, then another algorithm=
 in the next, even for the same reacting node. If so, we need to define wha=
t it means when that happens.

For example, if I receive an OLR with the "loss" algorithm, and another wit=
h the "rate" algorithm from the same server, does the second replace the fi=
rst? Do I now have two overload state entries that I need to "stack"?

Thanks!

Ben.

On Feb 10, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:

> I'll attempt to summarize where we are on this.  If this is agreed to the=
n the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.  Some of this is al=
ready in the draft, some of it will require changes.
>=20
> - The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to include t=
he OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change required here.
>=20
> - A reporting node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be sen=
t to a reacting node from the set of abatement algorithms included in the O=
C-Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.
>=20
> - If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no OC-Supported-=
Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the reacting node must be=
 loss.
>=20
> - The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with the l=
oss algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>=20
> - If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm oth=
er then loss, the reacting node must include the OC-Supported-Features AVP =
with a single algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.=20
>=20
> - New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing OC-O=
LR AVP.  The new algorithms may also create a new overload report AVP if th=
at makes the most sense.
>=20
> - The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement alg=
orithm.  Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the mandat=
ory to implement algorithm.
>=20
> Steve=20
>=20
> On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jouni Korhonen [
>> mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com
>> ]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc :=20
>> dime@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messa=
ges
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM,=20
>> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Hi Jouni,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize support=
ed algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report A=
VP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be =
created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-expl=
icit.
>>>>=20
>>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>>> abatement algorithm..=20
>>>=20
>>> [LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There i=
s no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR se=
nt in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could =
have is "use either one or the other".
>>>=20
>> This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node
>> announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the
>> sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.
>>=20
>> [LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector M=
AY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the com=
mon algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support=
 more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with anoth=
er algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given O=
LR.
>>>=20
>> I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..
>>=20
>> [LM] I was not proposing such idea :)
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along w=
ith the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>=20
>>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>>=20
>>> [LM] Right. No issue here.
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Jouni Korhonen [
>>> mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com
>>> ]=20
>>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04
>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc :=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer mess=
ages
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM,=20
>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to s=
olve it is not the correct one.
>>>>=20
>>> Agree.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with s=
everal algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC=
-Feature-Vector AVP.
>>>>=20
>>> The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it=
 is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given alg=
o when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 fo=
r 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate t=
he abatement to perform.
>>>>=20
>>> My intention was always allow:
>>>=20
>>>  client announces  ABC
>>>  server supports    BCD
>>>  server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
>>>  alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize support=
ed algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report A=
VP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be =
created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-expl=
icit.
>>>>=20
>>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>>> abatement algorithm..=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along w=
ith the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>=20
>>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Lionel=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>>> ]=20
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>>=20
>>>> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>>=20
>>>> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism in
>>>> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP
>>>> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reac=
ting
>>>> DOIC endpoint.
>>>> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node ca=
n do
>>>> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
>>>> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
>>>> messages.
>>>> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
>>>> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no ot=
her
>>>> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
>>>> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
>>>> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not recei=
ving
>>>> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>>>>=20
>>>> a) There is no overload
>>>> b) DOIC is not supported
>>>>=20
>>>> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between these
>>>> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
>>>> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>>>>   If there is no single matching
>>>>   capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>>>>   DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>>>>   messages with this specific reacting node.
>>>>=20
>>>> This however is inconsistent.
>>>> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
>>>> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
>>>> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a diffe=
rent
>>>> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
>>>> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the =
role
>>>> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role si=
nce
>>>> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
>>>> Supported-Features AVPs.
>>>> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-i=
etf-
>>>> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
>>>> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
>>>> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>>> Reporter:=20=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>   |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>>>>    Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
>>>> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
>>>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
>>>> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
>>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> Ticket URL:=20
>>>> <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
>>>>=20
>>>> dime=20
>>>> <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
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 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
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>>>>=20
>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;
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>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
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>>>>=20
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>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________
>>>=20
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations conf=
identielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message=
s electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme=
 ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>=20
>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged=
 information that may be protected by law;
>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have b=
een modified, changed or falsified.
>>> Thank you.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> ________________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confi=
dentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez r=
ecu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages=
 electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme =
ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and d=
elete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have be=
en modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>>=20
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Tue Feb 11 02:13:42 2014
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
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Let's use "validity duration" and "expiry time", and avoid "validity time"

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:59 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP

Hi all

I agree to enhance the wording so by starting  from the new Lionel's wordin=
g.

My comment is that we have  to clearly distinguish the "validity duration" =
given  by the OC-Validity-Duration AVP (eg 10 s) from the "validity time" (=
absolute value) at the end of which  the received OLR is no more applicable=
.
- If the reacting node receives a new sequence number at T1 and a validity =
duration of 10s, this will determine a validity time eg of T1+ 10s where th=
e received OLR is applicable.
- If later at T2, it receives another OLR with the Same sequence number,  t=
he validity time remains unchanged at  T1+10s (as stated in Lionel's propos=
al), this allows to ignore the OLRs with the same sequence number.
- If at T3, the reacting node receives another OLR with a new  sequence num=
ber and with the same value, 10 s, (or a new value, eg 15s)  for validity d=
uration,  the validity time becomes  T3+10s (or T3+15s). So we can have sit=
uations where the sequence number is changed but the other content of OC-OL=
R AVP (reduction%, validity duration) itself has not changed: the effect is=
 only to shift the validity time in the reacting node.
Do you share  all this understanding?=20

So in the description, to be careful between validity duration and validity=
 time that  may confuse.

Best regards

JJacques=20


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:53
=C0=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP


OK by me.

- JOuni

On Feb 7, 2014, at 12:19 PM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> I'm fine with the proposed clarification.
> My point is that some parts belong to the handling of the OLR itself and =
some other to the definition of the Validity duration.
>=20
> Here is a proposal for clarification. Let me know if it covers your conce=
rn.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> *******************
>=20
> 4.3. OC-OLR AVP
>=20
> [skip]
>=20
>   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
>   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
>   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
>   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint to
>   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
>   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
>   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
>   is less than previously received one.
>=20
> [New]
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP indicates the validity time of the overloa=
d
>   report associated with a specific sequence number, measured after recep=
tion
>   of the OC-OLR AVP. The validity time MUST NOT be updated after receptio=
n=20
>   of subsequent OC-OLR AVPs with the same sequence number. The default va=
lue
>   for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e., 5 seconds).  When th=
e=20
>   OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the OC-OLR AVP, the default =
value
>   applies.
>=20
> [Skip]
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> OLD:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>=20
> NEW:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and indicates in seconds the validity time of the overload report.
>   The number of seconds is measured after reception of the first=20
>   OC-OLR AVP with a given value of OC-Sequence-Number AVP.=20
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies. OC-Validity-Duration AVP values =
0
>   (i.e., 0 second) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   When invalid values are used, the default value for the OC-Validity-Dur=
ation
>   AVP applies.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 08:38 =C0 : dime@ietf.org=
=20
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hello Lionel, all,
>=20
> I would like to clarify what  "new and fresh", or even only "new" OC-OLR =
AVP mean in the text.
> It should be understood that it does not refer to the new (latest) receiv=
ed AVP, but just the one that contains (potentially) new values, what only =
happens for a new Sequence Number. In that line is the proposed text I prov=
ided.
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 8:33
> To: dime@ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> My point is just to say that we should make the difference between the de=
finition and the use of the AVP.
>=20
> And about the clarification, I would say that it is rather about how to p=
opulate the OC-OLR AVP or when a new sequence number should be used.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange
>=20
> Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> a =E9crit :
>=20
>=20
> Thanks Lionel,
> The comment equally applies in order to clarify when the Validity-Duratio=
n should include a new value.
>=20
> Now:
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: jueves, 06 de febrero de 2014 19:07
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz, Steve,
>=20
> Be careful! The reference you are using seems to be odd.
>=20
> The current text in the draft says:
>=20
> 4.5. OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
>=20
>   The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>   and describes the number of seconds the "new and fresh" OC-OLR AVP
>   and its content is valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP.
>   The default value for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP value is 5 (i.e.,
>   5 seconds).  When the OC-Validity-Duration AVP is not present in the
>   OC-OLR AVP, the default value applies.  Validity duration values 0
>   (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
>   Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-
>   Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
>   A timeout of the overload report has specific concerns that need to
>   be taken into account by the endpoint acting on the earlier received
>   overload report(s).  Section 4.7 discusses the impacts of timeout in
>   the scope of the traffic abatement algorithms.
>=20
>   As a general guidance for implementations it is RECOMMENDED never to
>   let any overload report to timeout.  Following to this rule, an
>   overload endpoint should explicitly signal the end of overload
>   condition and not rely on the expiration of the validity time of the
>   overload report in the reacting node.  This leaves no need for the
>   reacting node to reason or guess the overload condition of the
>   reporting node.
>=20
> I think that the definition of the OC-Validity-Duration AVP should remain=
 independent of the notion of Sequence-Number.
> The sequence number does not change the value of the OC-Validity-Duration=
 AVP. It indicates that the OLR has to be updated or not. And if it is, a n=
ew duration will be there (either implicit or explicit with the OC-Validity=
-Duration AVP).
>=20
> So if something needs to be clarified (I haven't checked), it should be i=
n the handling of the OLR.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
> Envoy=E9 : jeudi 6 f=E9vrier 2014 16:35 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re:=20
> [Dime] [dime] #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> This change looks pretty straight forward to me.  I'll add it to the -02 =
version of the draft unless I hear objections soon.
>=20
> Steve
> On 2/6/14 4:44 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #36: OC-Validity-Duration AVP
>=20
> In draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 chapter 4.5, the statement that describes when=
  the OC-Validity-Duration AVP needs to be updated is ambiguous.
>=20
> Now:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid since the reception of the new OC-OLR AVP (as indicated by the
>    OC-Sequence-Number AVP).
>=20
> Proposal:
>    The OC-Validity-Duration AVP (AVP code TBD4) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the number of seconds the OC-OLR AVP and its content is
>    valid in relation to the reception of the first OC-OLR AVP with a
>    specific sequence number. For a given sequence number, the
>    OC-Validity-Duration shall always carry the same value.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites o=
u copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuill=
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:20:29 +0000
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References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F24ACE.6080501@usdonovans.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F25A38.2030408@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B22FB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D64E69@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <29031_1391678397_52F353BD_29031_478_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48CA45@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B233F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D65226@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B24BA@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772389@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68B44@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097726C5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68C65@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772718@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52F8FC53.4070508@usdonovans.com> <8685_1392050573_52F9018D_8685_14082_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497B0A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From nsalot@cisco.com  Tue Feb 11 02:23:18 2014
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overload	reports expire
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:22:58 +0000
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overload	reports expire
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Ben,

I resonate with your thinking below.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:54 PM
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overloa=
d reports expire


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:16 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
> My reasoning for explicit termination was that knowing the=20
> implementation folks they will let overload conditions expire unless advi=
sed otherwise.
> And having unnecessary stuff hanging around waiting for a cleanup is=20
> not a good thing in general. But I am open here for other options..
>=20

I think it's reasonable to say that a reporting node should terminate an ov=
erload condition in a timely manner. But if it's about to expire anyway, th=
en expiration might be just as timely as an explicit report.=20

And of course, the definition of "timely" is somewhat a matter of policy. F=
or example, I can imagine an deployment that had a large number of clients =
using fairly short validity durations, and _never_ explicitly signaling an =
end to an overload condition. This adds a bit of a "slow-start" to the reco=
very, since different clients will expire the overload condition at differe=
nt times, and the load will ramp up gradually. I don't see anything wrong w=
ith that. Of course, it wouldn't work if one chose long validity durations,=
 or if the signaling of overload to different clients happened in close syn=
chronization.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Tue Feb 11 02:24:09 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Tue Feb 11 02:24:53 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overload	reports expire
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting	overload	reports expire
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Ben, Nirav,

I follow same argumentation.
Regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nirav Salot (nsalot)
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:23
To: Ben Campbell; Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overloa=
d reports expire

Ben,

I resonate with your thinking below.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:54 PM
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overloa=
d reports expire


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:16 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
> My reasoning for explicit termination was that knowing the=20
> implementation folks they will let overload conditions expire unless advi=
sed otherwise.
> And having unnecessary stuff hanging around waiting for a cleanup is=20
> not a good thing in general. But I am open here for other options..
>=20

I think it's reasonable to say that a reporting node should terminate an ov=
erload condition in a timely manner. But if it's about to expire anyway, th=
en expiration might be just as timely as an explicit report.=20

And of course, the definition of "timely" is somewhat a matter of policy. F=
or example, I can imagine an deployment that had a large number of clients =
using fairly short validity durations, and _never_ explicitly signaling an =
end to an overload condition. This adds a bit of a "slow-start" to the reco=
very, since different clients will expire the overload condition at differe=
nt times, and the load will ramp up gradually. I don't see anything wrong w=
ith that. Of course, it wouldn't work if one chose long validity durations,=
 or if the signaling of overload to different clients happened in close syn=
chronization.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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--_000_087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772EB3ESESSMB101erics_--


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Tue Feb 11 02:33:03 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange
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Hi Maria Cruz,

please find the diagram attached.

Best regards
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 11:55 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange

Hello Ulrich et all,

As far as I can follow your comments on diagram, I tend to agree with your =
proposal, but I cannot fully follow this, since diagram is not properly rec=
eived.
Is it possible to provide diagram in another format that is not modified by=
 each one email configuration? I think this is very important for discussio=
n and agreement
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: martes, 04 de febrero de 2014 14:44
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange

Steve,

please find comments inline.

Regards
Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 12:55 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] DOIC Endpoint behavior -- Capability Exchange

All,

I believe that the current DOIC Endpoint behavior definition is not suffici=
ently defined, especially for agents.
<Ulrich> I agree. </Ulrich>

There was also a change introduced in the -01 version of the draft that imp=
lies that there can be a DOIC association that goes through a DOIC enabled =
agent.=A0 This was not=A0 how I understood endpoints.
<Ulrich> same with me </Ulrich>=A0 The original diagrams showed a DOIC agen=
t as terminating an endpoint that came to it.=A0=A0=A0 I suspect there were=
 different assumptions that lead to clearly different interpretations.=A0=20

I propose that we return to the original diagrams and add the wording below=
 on how DOC agents behave.=A0 One way to look at this is that DOC agents ac=
t as back-to-back DOC endpoints.=A0 I intentionally don't say back-to-back =
Diameter endpoints because this does not impact anything except the handlin=
g of DOIC related AVPs.

Note that I don't believe this requires any changes to Diameter clients or =
servers.=A0 I also don't believe this requires any changes to the contents =
of the DOIC related AVPs but there is an open question as to whether there =
is a need to indicate when a OC-Supported-Features AVP is generated or modi=
fied by an agent.

I propose to add the following section to the section on capabilities annou=
ncement.=A0 I'll send a separate email proposing text to section 5.5 on how=
 DOC agents are to behave.=20

Regards,

Steve

-----

5.3.1 DOC Agent handling of DOIC capability exchange.

A DOC agent is defined as a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension=
.
<Ulrich> A Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extension is not necessari=
ly taking the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint.
It only takes the role of a reacting DOIC endpoint when receiving a request=
 that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.
Similarily a Diameter agent that supports the DOIC extensions is not necess=
arily taking the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint.
It only takes the role of a reporting DOIC endpoint when receiving a realm =
type request (not containing a destination host) that contains an OC-Suppor=
ted-Features AVP while it is configured to act as a reporting DOIC endpoint=
 for that realm. </Ulrich>

A DOC node is defined as a Diameter client, Diameter server or Diameter age=
nt that supports the DOIC extension <Ulrich> and decided to take the role o=
f a reacting DOIC endpoint and/or reporting DOIC endpoint </Ulrich>.

An downstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between the DO=
IC supporting Diameter entity that sends a Diameter request message to a DO=
C agent and the DOC agent.

A upstream DOIC Association is defined as the association between a DOC age=
nt and the Diameter entity to which the DOC agent sends the Diameter reques=
t message.=A0 The following illustrated the upstream and downstream concept=
s.

=A0 DOC node <--downstream DOIC association--> DOC agent <--upstream DOIC a=
ssociation--> DOC=A0 node
=A0 Direction of request message for a transaction ----->
=A0 Direction of answer message for a transaction <----- <Ulrich> this depe=
nds on the point of view: one node's downstream DOIC association is another=
 node's upstream DOIC association. </Ulrich> <Ulrich> The general case is:

+---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                 =
         +--------+                +--------+
| client  |      | A1      |     | A2     |     | A3     |                 =
         | A4     |                | server |
| no DOIC |      | no DOIC |     | DOIC   |     | DOIC   |                 =
         | DOIC   |                | DOIC   |
| support |      | support |     | support|     | support|                 =
         | support|                | support|=20
+---------+      +---------+     +--------+     +--------+                 =
         +--------+                +--------+
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |<---DOIC association 1---------------=
---------->|<-------DOIC association 2-->|
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |<-----------------DOIC association 3-=
---------------------------------------->|
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |----1.xxR------->|---2.xxR----->|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |---3.xxR----->|----4.xxR-------------=
---------->|                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |--------5.xxR--------------->|=20
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |<-------6.xxA----------------|
    |                 |              |<--8.xxA------|<---7.xxA-------------=
-----------|                             |
    |<---10.xxA-------|<--9.xxA------|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |----11.xxR------>|---12.xxR---->|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |---13.xxR---->|-----14.xxR-----------=
---------->|-------15.xxR--------------->|
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |<---18.xxA----|<----17.xxA-----------=
-----------|<-----16.xxA-----------------|
    |<---20.xxA-------|<---19.xxA----|              |                      =
           |                             |
    |                 |              |              |                      =
           |                             |
DOIC association 1 is for realm type requests; DOIC association 2 is for re=
quest for which A4 selects the server DOIC association 3 is for host type r=
equests

1. the client that does not support DOIC sends 1.xxR (realm type request no=
t containing destination host) to the next hop; 1.xxR does not contain an O=
C-Supported-Features AVP 2. the agent A1 that does not support DOIC forward=
s the request to the next hop; 2.xxR still dos not contain an OC-Supported-=
Feature AVP.
3. the agent A2 that supports DOIC decides to take the role of a reacting e=
ndpoint; it inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP into 3.xxR indicating supp=
ort of features 1 and 2 (in this example).
4. agent A3, although it supports DOIC, does not take the role of a reactin=
g endpoint (because 3.xxR contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP); it also d=
oes not take the role of a reporting endpoint since it is not configured to=
 act as reporting endpoint for the destination realm received in 3.xxR; 4.x=
xR (unmodified) is sent to the next hop.
5. agent A4 is configured to take the role of the reporting endpoint for th=
e realm. It therefore removes the OC-Supported-Features AVP reveived in 4.x=
xR and inserts its own supported features (in this example features 1 and 3=
) in 5.xxR. A4 also selects the server to which 5.xxR is sent.
6. the server (that supports DOIC e.g. features 1 and 3) returns 6.xxA incl=
uding an OLR1 (host type) requesting a feature 3 specific traffic reduction=
 (e.g. window size 20).=20
7. A4 calculates the overall realm overload level, removes the received OLR=
1 and adds its own calculated realm type OLR2 (e.g. a feature 1 specific tr=
affic reduction of 50%-loss) to 7.xxA. A4 stores OLR1 for later use.
8. A3 not taking any DOIC role forwards the answer unmodified.
9. agent A2 may remove the reveived OLR2 when sending 9.xxA. A2 stores OLR2=
 for later use.
10. A1 not supporting DOIC is transparent.
11. client sends a new request 11.xxR (containing destination host as learn=
d from 10.xxA; no OC-Supported-Features AVP included.
12. A1 is transparent.
13. A2 decides to take the role of the reacting endpoint and includes again=
 its supported features 1 and 2 in OC-Supported-Features AVO sent within 13=
.xxR.
14. A3 is transparent
15. A4 is transparent for host type requests that contain an OC-Supported-F=
eatures AVP.
16. server returns 16.xxA including a host type OLR3 requesting a feature 1=
 specific traffic reduction of e.g. 30%-loss.
17. A4 is transparent
18. A3 is transparent
19. A2 stores OLR3 for later use and may remove OLR3 when sending 19.xxA.
20. client receives 20.xxA.
</Ulrich>

Four scenarios must be supported:

=A0 - Scenario 1 - There is both an upstream and downstream DOIC associatio=
n.
<Ulrich> for example see A4 in the figure above </Ulrich>
=A0 - Scenario 2 - There is no upstream DOIC association <Ulrich> do you me=
an "There is a downstream DOIC association but no upstream DOIC association=
"? Not covered in the figure above. </Ulrich>
=A0 - Scenario 3 - There is no downstream DOIC association <Ulrich> do you =
mean "There is an upstream DOIC association but no downstream DOIC associat=
ion"? for example see A2 in the figure above </Ulrich>
=A0 - Scenario 4 - No DOIC association in either direction <Ulrich> for exa=
mple see A3 in the figure above </Ulrich>

Scenario 1 - Both upstream and downstream DOIC associations

Request message handling:

A DOC agent that receives a request that contains the OC-Supported-Features=
 AVP must act as an endpoint for the downstream DOIC association.
<Ulrich> NO! see A3 receiving 3.xxR or 13.xxR (this may not be scenario 1, =
but how does the agent know which scenario applies?)</Ulrich>

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the request message then the agent must =
include an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.=A0 The content=
s of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimum, all of the c=
ontent included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.=A0 If the agent =
does not support any additional features then the sent OC-Supported-Feature=
s AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.
<Ulrich>There cannot be more than one OC-Supported-Features AVPs in one req=
uest. An agent that inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP must remove the re=
ceived OC-Supported-Features AVP (see A4 when sending 5.xxR). The inserted =
OC-Supported Features AVP shall indicate the features the inserting node su=
pports, not more, not less</Ulrich>

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent must modify the OC-Supported-Featu=
res AVP to indicate support for those features.=A0 The modified OC-Supporte=
d-Features AVP must be included in the relayed request message.

=A0 Note: any DOIC extension must define the changes needed to the OC-Featu=
re-Vector AVP and any additional AVPs that need to be added to the OC-Suppo=
rted-Features AVP as part of the capabilities advertisement for that featur=
e.

Question: Should there be an indication that the contents of the OC-Support=
ed-Features AVP was changed?
<Ulrich> no. for what reason? </Ulrich>

Question: Will this work when end-to-end security is introduced?=A0 Would a=
dding a separate OC-Supported-Features AVP be better, especially when end-t=
o-end security is considered?
<Ulrich> what is the issue? </Ulrich>

Answer message handling:

When an agent receives the=A0 answer message that corresponds to the above =
request message <Ulrich> i.e. the request message into which the agent has =
inserted its OC-Supported-Features AVP </Ulrich> , the agent must act as th=
e DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC association.=A0=20

If the DOC agent relays or proxies the answer message then the agent must i=
nclude an OC-Supported-Features AVP in the relayed message.
<Ulrich> OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages is an open issue </Ul=
rich>
=A0 The contents of the OC-Supported-Features AVP must include, at a minimu=
m, all of the content included in the received OC-Supported-Features AVP.=
=A0 If the agent does not support any additional features then the sent OC-=
Supported-Features AVP will remain the same as the received OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP.

If the agent supports DOIC features that are not indicated in the received =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the agent should modify the OC-Supported-Fea=
tures AVP to indicate support for those features.=A0 The modified OC-Suppor=
ted Features AVP must be included in the relayed answer message.

Scenario 2 - No downstream DOIC association with an upstream association <U=
lrich> wasn't that scenario 3? </Ulrich>

In this case a request is received that does not contain an OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP.

Request message handling:

If a DOC agent receives a request that does NOT contain an OC-Supported-Fea=
tures AVP then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflect=
ing the DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.=A0 The new OC-Supported-F=
eatures AVP must be included in the relayed/proxied request message.

The agent will then become the reacting DOIC endpoint for the upstream DOIC=
 association that results from the transaction.=A0=20

Note: Section x.x.x defines agent behavior when it is the reacting node for=
 a DOIC association.

Answer message handling

In this case the answer message will contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.=
=A0 The DOC agent must store the advertised capabilities for use when the D=
OC agent reacts to an overload report from the upstream Diameter node.

The DOC agent should remove the OC-Supported-Features AVP from the answer m=
essage before relaying/proxying the answer message.=A0=20

Scenario 3 - Downstream DOC association with no upstream DOIC association <=
Ulrich> wasn't this scenario 2? </Ulrich>

In this case a OC-Supported-Features AVP is received in the request from th=
e downstream Diameter entity but no OC-Supported-Features AVP is received i=
n the answer message received from the upstream Diameter entity.=A0 In this=
 case the agent must act as the reporting DOIC endpoint for the downstream =
DOIC association.
<Ulrich> this is totally new to me. Where does this come from? If a server =
does not support DOIC it cannot request load reduction from a downstream ag=
ent. The downstream agent (even if it would detect the DOIC-non-support of =
the server) cannot request load reduction from further downstream nodes on =
behalf of the server </Ulrich>

Request message handling:

Request message handling is the same as for scenario 1.

Answer message handling:

If a DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Suppo=
rted-Features AVP for a transaction that includes an upstream DOC associati=
on then the agent must generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP reflecting the=
 DOIC features supported by the DOC agent.=A0 The generation of this OC-Sup=
ported-Features AVP must also follow the rules specified in section 5.3.2.=
=A0 The new OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in the relayed/proxi=
ed the answer message.

Scenario 4 - No upstream association and no downstream association

Request message handling:

The request message handling in this case is the same as scenario 2.

Answer message handling:

If the DOC agent receives an answer message that does not contain an OC-Sup=
ported-Features AVP for a transaction that does not include a downstream DO=
C association then the agent must NOT generate an OC-Supported-Features AVP=
.=A0 The DOC Agent must relay/proxy the answer message with no DOIC related=
 change.

<Ulrich> the open issue seems to be: How can an agent determine which scena=
rio is applicable? Let me try:
An agent that does not support DOIC is always in scenario 4 (no upstream DO=
IC association, no downstream DOIC association).
For an agent that supports DOIC:
When receiving a request that does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP=
 the agent is in scenario 3 or 4 (no downstream DOIC association). Whether =
its 3 or 4 depends on whether or not an OLR is received in the correspondin=
g answer.
When receiving a host type request (a request that contains a Destination-H=
ost AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP the agent is in scenario=
 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association) When rece=
iving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Destination-H=
ost AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent is configu=
red to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is scenario 1 or 2 (=
there is a downstream DOIC association). Whether its 1 or 2 depends on whet=
her or not an OLR is received in the corresponding answer.
When receiving a realm type request (a request that does not contain a Dest=
ination-Host AVP) that contains an OC-Supported-Feature AVP and the agent i=
s configured not to act as reporting node for that realm, the agent is in s=
cenario 4 (no upstream DOIC association, no downstream DOIC association). <=
/Ulrich>





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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:35:46 +0000
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References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F24ACE.6080501@usdonovans.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F25A38.2030408@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B22FB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D64E69@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <29031_1391678397_52F353BD_29031_478_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48CA45@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B233F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D65226@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B24BA@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772389@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68B44@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097726C5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68C65@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772718@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52F8FC53.4070508@usdonovans.com> <8685_1392050573_52F9018D_8685_14082_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497B0A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6978A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772E88@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D697CA@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772EB3@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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--_000_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E499B60PEXCVZYM13corpora_--


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Steve,

I prefer this text to remain, as Ulrich proposed, since it clarifies.
It refers to new requests that need to match same application Id as in the =
answer that includes the OLR. (It does not refer to the answer of a request=
).
One endpoint can send requests for multiple applications, we have  not rest=
ricted this.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:44
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers to=20
> the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.
> <Ulrich>yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not harm=20
> to keep c)</Ulrich>
SRD> I don't see the reason for including this statement.  By
definition, an overload report
applies to the application ID in the answer message.  There is no way for t=
he application-id in the answer message to be different than the applicatio=
n-id in the request message without breaking Diameter.

_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Tue Feb 11 02:42:37 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Exact, I agree.
Cheers
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 10:37
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Steve,

I do not agree.

e.g.=20
1. reacting node sends Request with application ID =3D x to reporting node =
2. reporting node sends back answer (containing an OLR) with application ID=
 =3D x 3. reacting node now may very well send  a new request with applicat=
ion ID =3D y to the reporting node without breaking any Diameter rules.=20
The new request sent in step 3 is NOT subject to throttling according to th=
e OLR received in step 2.
I hope this is not contentious.
In order to provide a complete list of conditions to say when an OLR of a g=
iven type applies to a new request, we should not let c) go by the board.

Ulrich


=20


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:44 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers to=20
> the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.
> <Ulrich>yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not harm=20
> to keep c)</Ulrich>
SRD> I don't see the reason for including this statement.  By
definition, an overload report
applies to the application ID in the answer message.  There is no way for t=
he application-id in the answer message to be different than the applicatio=
n-id in the request message without breaking Diameter.

_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Hello,
I agree with JJ:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host=20
[JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; =
coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node =
has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduct=
ion, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.

[MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is an=
y applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will b=
e applicable from next request on.
Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether w=
e have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity & applicabi=
lity.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi Lionel=20

Please see in line

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] Envoy=E9=
=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 14:25 =C0=A0: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQ=
UES); dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report=
-Type AVP

I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.

I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somew=
here, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is =
not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1=
. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic wit=
h destination Host S1.
  =20
- If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic red=
uction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No=
 reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
[JJ] OK
=20
- If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and=
 for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messa=
ges with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will ap=
ply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm A=
VP).
[JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails

In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm red=
uction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the react=
ing has received info about both type of overload.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56 =C0=A0: dime@=
ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear  all

I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is know=
n
- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not=
 known (only the Destination realm).

I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g abou=
t the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm is=
 overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (so =
no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel com=
ment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 ac=
cording to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.

JJacques

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear all,

I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he pro=
vided.
----
As a summary:
Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent =
and host type OLRs from the servers.
The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sen=
ding/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be rel=
evant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type request=
s.
-----

It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and th=
en it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not =
apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client=
 will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has be=
en received by Client.
The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plu=
s Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the so=
lution.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
To: ext Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely =
extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at =
all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why sh=
ould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the no=
t at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to=20
> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?

Isn't this what Lionel said below?
<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
 I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing =
principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destina=
tion-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there i=
s an explicit report for the destination-host.
> =20
> Lioenl
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re=
:=20
> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests tar=
geted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that i=
t would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>=20
> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the i=
nteraction between realm reports and host reports.
>=20
> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host sec=
ond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm=
 overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction =
needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive rea=
lm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohib=
ited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole rea=
lm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the re=
acting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for t=
he realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... e=
xcept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this =
destination-host.
> =20
> Does it make sense?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload =20
> treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
> =20
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its valu=
e
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messag=
e
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> =20
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________
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> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
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les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alterat=
ion, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
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> =20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
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istributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

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___________________________________________________________________________=
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From lionel.morand@orange.com  Tue Feb 11 02:50:25 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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I think that there is no contentious issue here :)
I think that Ulrich is right saying that the reacting node needs to take in=
to account the application-id to perform the abatement. Not when receiving =
the OLR... but when sending a new request.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:43
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Exact, I agree.
Cheers
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 10:37
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Steve,

I do not agree.

e.g.=20
1. reacting node sends Request with application ID =3D x to reporting node =
2. reporting node sends back answer (containing an OLR) with application ID=
 =3D x 3. reacting node now may very well send  a new request with applicat=
ion ID =3D y to the reporting node without breaking any Diameter rules.=20
The new request sent in step 3 is NOT subject to throttling according to th=
e OLR received in step 2.
I hope this is not contentious.
In order to provide a complete list of conditions to say when an OLR of a g=
iven type applies to a new request, we should not let c) go by the board.

Ulrich


=20


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:44 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers to=20
> the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.
> <Ulrich>yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not harm=20
> to keep c)</Ulrich>
SRD> I don't see the reason for including this statement.  By
definition, an overload report
applies to the application ID in the answer message.  There is no way for t=
he application-id in the answer message to be different than the applicatio=
n-id in the request message without breaking Diameter.

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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Tue Feb 11 02:51:57 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Hello all,

I agree with Ulrich comments, since I agree on the basic approach as mentio=
ned already in this thread (inline with JJ comments as well):


- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is know=
n

- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not=
 known (only the Destination realm).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Jouni Korhon=
en; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Lionel,

Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is perfectl=
y valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there are n=
o servers in overload.
<Ulrich> I don't think so</Ulrich>
  This could happen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload report=
 is triggered by layer 3 congestion.

Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server overload,=
 but that isn't the only consideration.
<Ulrich> all considerations other than server overload are (or should be) o=
ut of scope. (May be covered by agent overload control)</Ulrich>

My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is no re=
ason to do the host throttling if the request has already been throttled by=
 the realm report.
It should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.  This mig=
ht look something like the following:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
    If request is throttled:
      Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the destinatio=
n-host AVP
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    If host credits exist for the host indicated in the destination-host AV=
P:
      Decrement host credit by one
    else:
      Apply host based throttling logic to that request
<Ulrich> sounds quite complicated</Ulrich>
Steve
On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
Hi Steve,

In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Ho=
st type OLR should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even rem=
oved as irrelevant.

And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than=
 the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, t=
he realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host shou=
ld apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.

By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between=
 the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".

Lionel

De : Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39
=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich=
)
Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic target=
ed for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destinatio=
n-host avp.  Is that correct?

I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report should tak=
e precedence over the host overload report.

My reasoning is as follows:

- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.  Cal=
l it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the realm can be based =
on a number of factors including the health of individual servers, individu=
al agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.

- When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network is co=
ngested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to send realm ov=
erload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent to the re=
alm as a whole will be reduced.

In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that requests targeted=
 for a healthy server will be throttled.

I propose the logic should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
  If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)



The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested=
 for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is rece=
ived for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies,=
 *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.



Is it clearer?



Lioenl



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.o=
rg>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Do=
novan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely ex=
treme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at al=
l, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why shou=
ld a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not =
at all overloaded S1?

What is wrong with letting the client

-not throttle host-type requests to S1,

-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and

-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?



Isn't this what Lionel said below?

<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>





Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case

except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?



If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying

the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.



- Jouni





I am OK with Lionel's

"wording" here.



- Jouni









From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@or=
ange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM

To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing pr=
inciples: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destinati=
on-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is =
an explicit report for the destination-host.



Lioenl



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targe=
ted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it =
would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.



If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the int=
eraction between realm reports and host reports.



I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host secon=
d.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm o=
verload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction ne=
eded to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm=
 abatement would then be candidates for host overload.



Steve



On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibit=
ed for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm=
, whatever the nodes inside this realm?

If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reac=
ting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the=
 realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... exc=
ept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this de=
stination-host.



Does it make sense?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload

treatment of a given report type applies.

Proposal:



   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests

      for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value

         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.







   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to

      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.





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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.






___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree with Ulrich commen=
ts, since I agree on the basic approach as mentioned already in this thread=
 (inline with JJ comments as well):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Host OLR based control applies to requests wher=
e Destination Host is known<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Realm OLR based control applies to requests whe=
re Destination Host is not known (only the Destination realm).<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [<a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@us=
donovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange=
.com</a>; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"DE">Lio=
nel,<br>
<br>
Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp; It is per=
fectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there =
are no servers in overload.</span><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; I don&#8217;t think so&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp; This could hap=
pen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload report is triggered by=
 layer 3 congestion.<br>
<br>
<span lang=3D"DE">Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced b=
y server overload, but that isn't the only consideration.</span><span lang=
=3D"DE" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; all considerations other than server overload ar=
e (or should be) out of scope. (May be covered by agent overload
 control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><br>
<br>
My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp; <span lan=
g=3D"DE">There is no reason to do the host throttling if the request has al=
ready been throttled by the realm report.<br>
It should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.&nbsp;
</span>This might look something like the following:<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">For all req=
uests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicat=
ed in the destination-host AVP<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the dest=
ination-host AVP:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request=
<br>
</span><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; sounds quite comp=
licated&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve,</sp=
an><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In your example, if an ag=
ent has a better knowledge than the server, the Host type OLR should not be=
 sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even removed as
 irrelevant.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And in a normal case, the=
 reduction for the realm will be likely lower than the reduction needed for=
 a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm
 (S1&#43;S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host should a=
pply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.</span><span lan=
g=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">By the way, in your propo=
sed logic, it is not clear if the relation between the first and the second=
 conditions is an &quot;IF NOT&quot;.
</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Steve Donovan [<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
/span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"DE">I t=
hink we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic targeted =
for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destination-h=
ost avp.&nbsp; Is that correct?<br>
<br>
I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload report shoul=
d take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
<br>
My reasoning is as follows:<br>
<br>
- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.&nbsp=
; Call it the &quot;realm overload authority&quot;.&nbsp; The health of the=
 realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of individu=
al servers, individual agents and the network connecting
 Diameter entities.<br>
<br>
- When this &quot;realm overload authority&quot; determines that the IP net=
work is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to sen=
d realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent=
 to the realm as a whole will be reduced.<br>
<br>
In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is likely that requests tar=
geted for a healthy server will be throttled.<br>
<br>
I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a href=3D"mai=
lto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">No it was not my intention and it is why it was writ=
ten &quot;except&quot; :)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit=
 reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i=
.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a =
reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied=
.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Lioenl <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Envoy=E9&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-=
Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wieh=
e@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Cc: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">=
lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.or=
g">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Repo=
rt-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wieh=
e@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is no=
t ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 =
is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm ov=
erload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host ty=
pe requests to the not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Ok, maybe I misread the &quot;realm abatement is app=
lied in any case<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">except if there is an explicit report for the destin=
ation-host&quot;?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">If this means the realm abatement is still applied a=
fter applying<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same =
you said.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">- Jouni<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&quot;wording&quot; here.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">- Jouni<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org"=
>mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a href=3D"mailto:lione=
l.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">To: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">=
dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Repo=
rt-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logi=
c as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when=
 present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any c=
ase except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Lioenl<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">=
mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org=
</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Repor=
t-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">It makes more sense to me for a realm report to appl=
y to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.=
&nbsp; This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destin=
ation-Host specified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">If this is the definition of a realm report then we =
need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">I propose that throttling would occur on the realm f=
irst and the host second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is thro=
ttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count=
 as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messag=
es to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for ho=
st overload.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">The case &quot;Realm&quot; as described below raises=
 another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global ov=
erload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">If not, only OLR with the report type &quot;realm&qu=
ot; would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in =
the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destinati=
on-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type &q=
uot;Host&quot; as been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Lionel<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;=
dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org<=
/a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to w=
hich requests overload<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overlo=
ad treatment should apply to requests<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the =
following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Ho=
st AVP is present in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mat=
ches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tha=
t contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the D=
estination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; val=
ue of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tha=
t contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the A=
pplication-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; req=
uest matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hea=
der of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overl=
oad treatment should apply to<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which al=
l of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Ho=
st AVP is absent in the request.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the D=
estination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; val=
ue of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tha=
t contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the A=
pplication-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; req=
uest matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hea=
der of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<pre><span lang=3D"DE">_______________________________________________<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dim=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Hi maria-cruz,

JJ agreed on the following approach:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somew=
here, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is =
not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1=
. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic wit=
h destination Host S1.
=20=20=20
- If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic red=
uction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No=
 reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
[JJ] OK
=20
- If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and=
 for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messa=
ges with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will ap=
ply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm A=
VP).
[JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails

In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm red=
uction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the react=
ing has received info about both type of overload.

What is the issue with this approach?

Regards,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:49
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hello,
I agree with JJ:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host=20
[JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; =
coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node =
has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduct=
ion, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.

[MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is an=
y applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will b=
e applicable from next request on.
Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether w=
e have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity & applicabi=
lity.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi Lionel=20

Please see in line

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] Envoy=E9=
=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 14:25 =C0=A0: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQ=
UES); dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report=
-Type AVP

I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.

I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somew=
here, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is =
not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1=
. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic wit=
h destination Host S1.
=20=20=20
- If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic red=
uction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No=
 reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
[JJ] OK
=20
- If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and=
 for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messa=
ges with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will ap=
ply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm A=
VP).
[JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails

In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm red=
uction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the react=
ing has received info about both type of overload.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56 =C0=A0: dime@=
ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear  all

I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is known
- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not=
 known (only the Destination realm).

I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g abou=
t the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm is=
 overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (so =
no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel com=
ment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 ac=
cording to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.

JJacques

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear all,

I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he pro=
vided.
----
As a summary:
Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent =
and host type OLRs from the servers.
The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sen=
ding/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be rel=
evant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type request=
s.
-----

It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and th=
en it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not =
apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client=
 will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has be=
en received by Client.
The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plu=
s Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the so=
lution.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
To: ext Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely =
extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at =
all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why sh=
ould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the no=
t at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to=20
> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?

Isn't this what Lionel said below?
<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
 I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

>=20=20
>=20=20
>=20=20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20=20
> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing =
principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destina=
tion-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there i=
s an explicit report for the destination-host.
>=20=20
> Lioenl
>=20=20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re=
:=20
> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20=20
> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests tar=
geted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that i=
t would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>=20
> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the i=
nteraction between realm reports and host reports.
>=20
> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host sec=
ond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm=
 overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction =
needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive rea=
lm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohib=
ited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole rea=
lm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the re=
acting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for t=
he realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... e=
xcept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this =
destination-host.
>=20=20
> Does it make sense?
>=20=20
> Lionel
>=20=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20=20
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20=20
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload=20=
=20
> treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
>=20=20
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20=20
>=20=20
>=20=20
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20=20
>=20=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________
>=20=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,=20
> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20
> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
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From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Tue Feb 11 03:32:36 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:32:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
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Steve,

the use case you are describing requires more than just a sequence number w=
ithin OC-Supported-Features. It also requires to add the Diameter identity =
of the reacting node (which inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP)  to the=
 OC-Supported-Features AVP.

Even with this mechanism in place, reporting nodes still would need to pars=
e the OC-Supported-Features AVP to read Sequence-Number and Diameter Identi=
ty to check whether it is a replay. Also reporting nodes would need to main=
tain a database of reacting nodes.

Also, once a replay is detected, what is the benefit to process the stored =
Feature-Vector rather than the replayed Feature-Vector?

Overall the concept does not decrease work for reporting nodes and does not=
 provide any benefit.

Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 6:24 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features

If we agree that the lifetime of the OC-Supported-Features capability adver=
tisement is a single transaction then the utility of the sequence number is=
 reduced.

My reason for pushing for having the sequence number originally was based o=
n the assumption that the capability advertised by a reacting node was semi=
 permanent.  While there might be no earthly use, the heavenly use was to d=
ecrease the work for reporting nodes needing to parse the AVP on every requ=
est received.

It is still the case that the OC-Supported-Features AVP contents will almos=
t never change.  The contents of the AVP will also become more complex as n=
ew extensions are defined.  The value of the sequence number is to allow a =
reporting node to save the advertisement and not parse the full content of =
the AVP unless the sequence number changes.

I still think there is enough value in the reduced work on a reporting node=
 to keep the sequence number.

Steve
On 2/7/14 2:01 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:

Finally catching up with these.. see inline.





On Feb 4, 2014, at 10:46 AM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org><mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:



#29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features



According to the current definition of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in

the -01 draft, the OC-Supported-Features AVP contains an OC-Sequence-

Number AVP.

The author of this document believes that OC-Sequence-Number within OC-

Supported-Feature is  not needed, is useless and could be misleading and

therefore proposes to remove OC-Sequence-Number from OC-Supported-Feature.



The -01 draft says in clause 4.1:

   The OC-Sequence-Number AVP is used to indicate whether the contents

   of the OC-Supported-Features AVP has changed since last time the node

   included the OC-Supported-Features AVP (see Section 4.4).  Although

   sending the OC-Sequence-Number AVP is mandatory in the OC-Supported-

   Features AVP, the receiving node MAY always choose to ignore the

   sequence number if it can determine the feature support changes

   otherwise.



The text seems to imply that the reporting DOIC endpoint, when receiving

an application request message that contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP,

needs to determine whether a feature support change occured (either by

checking the value of the received sequence-number (probably) against a

stored value, or by other unspecified means). However,  this is not

correct. The reporting DOIC endpoint may  ignore the sequence-number even

if it cannot determine whether or not a feature support change occured:

The reporting DOIC endpoint simply takes the value of the OC-Feature-

Vector as received in the request  into account (if absent the default

value applies) when processing the request.  There is no need for the

reporting DOIC endpoint to know whether a previous request contained the

same or a different value in OC-Feature-Vector, i.e. whether there was a

recent change.



This is true for the current default algorithm. May not be true in the

future. Note, in IETF space versioning Diameter applications is not that

straight forward as in 3GPP, thus I would rather have forward looking

solution, even if that in places would mean "placeholder" AVPs.



It has been argued that the reporting DOIC endpoint may (optionally)

benefit from the presence of a Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-

Features: The reporting DOIC endpoint may have stored the Sequence-Number

and Feature-Vector as received in a previous request, and when receiving a

new request the reporting DOIC endpoint would compare the received

Sequence-Number from the new request  with the stored Sequence-Number;  If

they match (i.e. no change of supported features occured) the reporting

DOIC endpoint would ignore the received Feature-Vector from the new

request and use the stored Feature-Vector for further processing; if they

don't match (i.e. a change of supported features occured), the reporting

DOIC endpoint would update the stored Sequence-Number and Feature-Vector

with the received values from the new request and use the updated Feature-

Vector for further processing. While it is debatable whether the described

usecase is reasonable, the following issues have not been addressed:

In configurations where the client does not support DOIC, an agent (A1) on

a path from client to reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g. server) may take the

role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and insert an OC-Supported-Features AVP

in the (first) request message indicating its supported features.  A

subsequent request message sent from the same client to the same server

may take another path on which another agent (A2) takes the role of the

reacting DOIC endpoint. A2 then inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP in

the subsequent request message indicating its supported features (which

may be different from A1's supported features but may have the same

sequence number).  Since the reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g.server) - when



Since seq-no is NTP time, this would not happen, excluding cases

where clocks either in A1 or A2 are wrong. But that is a different

issue then..



receiving the subsequent request - cannot know whether the the reacting

DOIC endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the

subsequent request is identical to or different from the reacting DOIC

endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the first request,



Right.



it may frequently occure that the reporting DOIC endpoint receives request

messages containing an OC-Supported-Features AVP with a Sequence-Number

valuelower than the stored value (which may be interpreted as error), or

equal to the stored value but with a different associated Feature Vector,

or higher than the stored value but unmodified Feature Vector.



See the above comment on the NPT.



In summary, the Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-Features is of no

earthly use since the reporting DOIC endpoint cannot associate a received

Sequence-Number (within OC-Supported-Features) with the identity of the

reacting DOIC endpoint that sent the Sequence-Number.  Even when such

association was possible by enhancing the OC-Supported-Features AVP with

the Diameter Identity of the reacting DOIC endpoint that generated the

Sequence-Number,  it would still simply not be needed as the reporting

DOIC endpoint can base its processing on the received Feature-Vector

(rather than on a stored Feature Vector).



I buy the reasoning for the lack of binding between the reacting node

identity and the supported features AVP.



However, we should not assume that _all_ implementations will behave

as expected above i.e. not storing the feature vector.



It is therefore proposed to remove the OC-Sequence-Number AVP from the OC-

Supported Features AVP.



I have no (more) strong view here. If folks are OK to remove

the seq-no, so be it.



- Jouni









--

----------------------------------------------+--------------------------

Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange-ftg=
roup.com>  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe

    Type:  defect                            |     Status:  new

Priority:  major                             |  Milestone:

Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli             |    Version:  2.0

Severity:  Active WG Document                |   Keywords:

----------------------------------------------+--------------------------



Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/29><http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/29>

dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/><http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">the use ca=
se you are describing requires more than just a sequence number within OC-S=
upported-Features. It also requires to add the Diameter identity
 of the reacting node (which inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP) &nbsp;=
to the OC-Supported-Features AVP.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Even with =
this mechanism in place, reporting nodes still would need to parse the OC-S=
upported-Features AVP to read Sequence-Number and Diameter
 Identity to check whether it is a replay. Also reporting nodes would need =
to maintain a database of reacting nodes.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Also, once=
 a replay is detected, what is the benefit to process the stored Feature-Ve=
ctor rather than the replayed Feature-Vector?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Overall th=
e concept does not decrease work for reporting nodes and does not provide a=
ny benefit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 6:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-F=
eatures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">If we agree that the =
lifetime of the OC-Supported-Features capability advertisement is a single =
transaction then the utility of the sequence number is reduced.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
My reason for pushing for having the sequence number originally was based o=
n the assumption that the capability advertised by a reacting node was semi=
 permanent.&nbsp; While there might be no earthly use, the heavenly use was=
 to decrease the work for reporting nodes
 needing to parse the AVP on every request received.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
It is still the case that the OC-Supported-Features AVP contents will almos=
t never change.&nbsp; The contents of the AVP will also become more complex=
 as new extensions are defined.&nbsp; The value of the sequence number is t=
o allow a reporting node to save the advertisement
 and not parse the full content of the AVP unless the sequence number chang=
es.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
I still think there is enough value in the reduced work on a reporting node=
 to keep the sequence number.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/7/14 2:01 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Finally catching up with these.. see inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 4, 2014, at 10:46 AM, dime issue tracker <a href=3D"mailto:trac=
&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">&lt;trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org&gt;</a=
> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>#29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>According to the current definition of the OC-Supported-Features AVP i=
n<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the -01 draft, the OC-Supported-Features AVP contains an OC-Sequence-<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Number AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The author of this document believes that OC-Sequence-Number within OC=
-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Supported-Feature is&nbsp; not needed, is useless and could be mislead=
ing and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>therefore proposes to remove OC-Sequence-Number from OC-Supported-Feat=
ure.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The -01 draft says in clause 4.1:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Sequence-Number AVP is used to indicate whether th=
e contents<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; of the OC-Supported-Features AVP has changed since last t=
ime the node<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; included the OC-Supported-Features AVP (see Section 4.4).=
&nbsp; Although<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; sending the OC-Sequence-Number AVP is mandatory in the OC=
-Supported-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Features AVP, the receiving node MAY always choose to ign=
ore the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; sequence number if it can determine the feature support c=
hanges<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; otherwise.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The text seems to imply that the reporting DOIC endpoint, when receivi=
ng<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>an application request message that contains an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>needs to determine whether a feature support change occured (either by=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>checking the value of the received sequence-number (probably) against =
a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>stored value, or by other unspecified means). However,&nbsp; this is n=
ot<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>correct. The reporting DOIC endpoint may&nbsp; ignore the sequence-num=
ber even<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>if it cannot determine whether or not a feature support change occured=
:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The reporting DOIC endpoint simply takes the value of the OC-Feature-<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Vector as received in the request&nbsp; into account (if absent the de=
fault<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>value applies) when processing the request.&nbsp; There is no need for=
 the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reporting DOIC endpoint to know whether a previous request contained t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>same or a different value in OC-Feature-Vector, i.e. whether there was=
 a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>recent change.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This is true for the current default algorithm. May not be true in the=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>future. Note, in IETF space versioning Diameter applications is not th=
at<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>straight forward as in 3GPP, thus I would rather have forward looking<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>solution, even if that in places would mean &quot;placeholder&quot; AV=
Ps.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>It has been argued that the reporting DOIC endpoint may (optionally)<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>benefit from the presence of a Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Features: The reporting DOIC endpoint may have stored the Sequence-Num=
ber<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and Feature-Vector as received in a previous request, and when receivi=
ng a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>new request the reporting DOIC endpoint would compare the received<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sequence-Number from the new request&nbsp; with the stored Sequence-Nu=
mber;&nbsp; If<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they match (i.e. no change of supported features occured) the reportin=
g<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DOIC endpoint would ignore the received Feature-Vector from the new<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>request and use the stored Feature-Vector for further processing; if t=
hey<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>don't match (i.e. a change of supported features occured), the reporti=
ng<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DOIC endpoint would update the stored Sequence-Number and Feature-Vect=
or<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>with the received values from the new request and use the updated Feat=
ure-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Vector for further processing. While it is debatable whether the descr=
ibed<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>usecase is reasonable, the following issues have not been addressed:<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In configurations where the client does not support DOIC, an agent (A1=
) on<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a path from client to reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g. server) may take t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>role of a reacting DOIC endpoint and insert an OC-Supported-Features A=
VP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>in the (first) request message indicating its supported features.&nbsp=
; A<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>subsequent request message sent from the same client to the same serve=
r<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>may take another path on which another agent (A2) takes the role of th=
e<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reacting DOIC endpoint. A2 then inserts an OC-Supported-Features AVP i=
n<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the subsequent request message indicating its supported features (whic=
h<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>may be different from A1's supported features but may have the same<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>sequence number).&nbsp; Since the reporting DOIC endpoint (e.g.server)=
 - when<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Since seq-no is NTP time, this would not happen, excluding cases<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>where clocks either in A1 or A2 are wrong. But that is a different<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>issue then..<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>receiving the subsequent request - cannot know whether the the reactin=
g<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DOIC endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>subsequent request is identical to or different from the reacting DOIC=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>endpoint that inserted the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the first requ=
est,<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Right.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>it may frequently occure that the reporting DOIC endpoint receives req=
uest<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>messages containing an OC-Supported-Features AVP with a Sequence-Numbe=
r<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>valuelower than the stored value (which may be interpreted as error), =
or<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>equal to the stored value but with a different associated Feature Vect=
or,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>or higher than the stored value but unmodified Feature Vector.<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>See the above comment on the NPT.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>In summary, the Sequence-Number within OC-Supported-Features is of no<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>earthly use since the reporting DOIC endpoint cannot associate a recei=
ved<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sequence-Number (within OC-Supported-Features) with the identity of th=
e<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reacting DOIC endpoint that sent the Sequence-Number.&nbsp; Even when =
such<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>association was possible by enhancing the OC-Supported-Features AVP wi=
th<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the Diameter Identity of the reacting DOIC endpoint that generated the=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sequence-Number,&nbsp; it would still simply not be needed as the repo=
rting<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DOIC endpoint can base its processing on the received Feature-Vector<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(rather than on a stored Feature Vector).<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I buy the reasoning for the lack of binding between the reacting node<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>identity and the supported features AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>However, we should not assume that _all_ implementations will behave<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>as expected above i.e. not storing the feature vector.<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>It is therefore proposed to remove the OC-Sequence-Number AVP from the=
 OC-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Supported Features AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I have no (more) strong view here. If folks are OK to remove<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>the seq-no, so be it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>----------------------------------------------&#43;-------------------=
-------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporter:&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com">li=
onel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com</a>&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ow=
ner:&nbsp; Ulrich Wiehe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp; defect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; Status:&nbsp; new<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Priority:&nbsp; major&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Milestone:<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre>Component:&nbsp; draft-docdt-dime-ovli&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Version:&nbsp;=
 2.0<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Severity:&nbsp; Active WG Document&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Keywor=
ds:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>----------------------------------------------&#43;-------------------=
-------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ticket URL: <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/=
29">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/29&gt;</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>dime <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.=
org/wg/dime/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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The definition of a realm overload report is to decrease the total
number of requests sent to the realm.  The algorithm suggests one way of
achieving the reduction of traffic.  Other approaches could clearly be
taken, as long as the total amount of traffic to the realm is reduced.

Steve


On 2/11/14 3:57 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> I don't understand one aspect.
>
> Why should the request be throttled with realm report when the request
> is targeted to a particular host within the realm.
>
> Can this request be routed to another host in that realm? If not, the
> request should be subjected to the throttling based on the host report.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> Nirav.
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Donovan
> *Sent:* Monday, February 10, 2014 11:22 PM
> *To:* lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
> DE/Munich)
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  
>
> Lionel,
>
> Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is
> perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction
> when there are no servers in overload.  This could happen in the case
> I mentioned where the realm overload report is triggered by layer 3
> congestion.
>
> Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server
> overload, but that isn't the only consideration.
>
> My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is
> no reason to do the host throttling if the request has already been
> throttled by the realm report.
> It should be as follows:
>
> For all requests:
>   If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
>   If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host
> overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
> One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm
> abatement algorithm and input that into the server abatement
> algorithm.  This might look something like the following:
>
> For all requests:
>   If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
>     If request is throttled:
>       Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the
> destination-host AVP
>   If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host
> overload report that applies to the request:
>     If host credits exist for the host indicated in the
> destination-host AVP:
>       Decrement host credit by one
>     else:
>       Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>     Hi Steve,
>
>      
>
>     In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the
>     server, the Host type OLR should not be sent unmodified in
>     forwarded answers, or even removed as irrelevant.
>
>      
>
>     And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely
>     lower than the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2
>     is 50% overload, the realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the
>     reduction for the Host should apply, why the host-type should
>     prevail over realm-type OLR.
>
>      
>
>     By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the
>     relation between the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".
>
>      
>
>     Lionel
>
>      
>
>     *De :*Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
>     *Envoyé :* lundi 10 février 2014 15:39
>     *À :* MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
>     DE/Munich)
>     *Cc :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>      
>
>     I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all
>     traffic targeted for that realm, independent of the presence or
>     absence of the destination-host avp.  Is that correct?
>
>     I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report
>     should take precedence over the host overload report.
>
>     My reasoning is as follows:
>
>     - There is something responsible for tracking the health of the
>     realm.  Call it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the
>     realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of
>     individual servers, individual agents and the network connecting
>     Diameter entities.
>
>     - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP
>     network is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or
>     servers to send realm overload reports with the expectation that
>     the overall traffic sent to the realm as a whole will be reduced.
>
>     In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes
>     precedence over the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely
>     that requests targeted for a healthy server will be throttled.
>
>     I propose the logic should be as follows:
>
>     For all requests:
>       If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>         Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
>       If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
>         Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
>     Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload
>     reports in any answer message, not just answers to requests that
>     did not contain a destination-host AVP.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
>     <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>         No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)
>
>          
>
>         The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.
>
>          
>
>         Is it clearer?
>
>          
>
>         Lioenl 
>
>          
>
>         -----Message d'origine-----
>
>         De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>         Envoyé : dimanche 9 février 2014 13:46
>
>         À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>         Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>          
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>             Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
>
>             To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>             Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>              
>
>                 I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>
>                 What is wrong with letting the client
>
>                 -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
>
>                 -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
>
>                 -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>
>              
>
>             Isn't this what Lionel said below?
>
>             <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case
>
>         except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?
>
>          
>
>         If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying
>
>         the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.
>
>          
>
>         - Jouni
>
>          
>
>          
>
>             I am OK with Lionel's
>
>             "wording" here.
>
>              
>
>             - Jouni
>
>              
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
>
>                 Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>
>                 To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>
>                  
>
>                 Lioenl
>
>                  
>
>                 De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>
>                 Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:56
>
>                 À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>
>                  
>
>                 If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>
>                  
>
>                 I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>
>                  
>
>                 Steve
>
>                  
>
>                 On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>                 The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>
>                 If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.
>
>                  
>
>                 Does it make sense?
>
>                  
>
>                 Lionel
>
>                  
>
>                 -----Message d'origine-----
>
>                 De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org] 
>
>                 Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:55
>
>                 À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>
>                 Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>
>                 treatment of a given report type applies.
>
>                 Proposal:
>
>                  
>
>                    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>
>                       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>
>                          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>
>                          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>
>                       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>
>                       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>                  
>
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>
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>
>                 a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>
>                 Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>                  
>
>                 This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>
>                 they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>
>                 If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>
>                 As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>
>                 Thank you.
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>
>                 DiME mailing list
>
>                 DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>              
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>          
>
>         Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>
>         pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>
>         a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>
>         Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>          
>
>         This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>
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>
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>         As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>
>         Thank you.
>
>          
>
>          
>
>      
>
>     _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>      
>
>     Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>
>     pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>
>     a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>
>     Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>      
>
>     This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>
>     they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>
>     If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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>  
>


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    The definition of a realm overload report is to decrease the total
    number of requests sent to the realm.&nbsp; The algorithm suggests one
    way of achieving the reduction of traffic.&nbsp; Other approaches could
    clearly be taken, as long as the total amount of traffic to the
    realm is reduced.<br>
    <br>
    Steve<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/14 3:57 AM, Nirav Salot
      (nsalot) wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Steve,
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I
            don&#8217;t understand one aspect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Why
            should the request be throttled with realm report when the
            request is targeted to a particular host within the realm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Can
            this request be routed to another host in that realm? If
            not, the request should be subjected to the throttling based
            on the host report.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 11:22 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Jouni Korhonen;
                Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Lionel,<br>
          <br>
          Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp;
          It is perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a
          reduction when there are no servers in overload.&nbsp; This could
          happen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload report
          is triggered by layer 3 congestion.<br>
          <br>
          Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by
          server overload, but that isn't the only consideration.<br>
          <br>
          My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp;
          There is no reason to do the host throttling if the request
          has already been throttled by the realm report.<br>
          It should be as follows:<br>
          <br>
          For all requests:<br>
          &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
          request:<br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
          &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a
          host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
          <br>
          One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the
          realm abatement algorithm and input that into the server
          abatement algorithm.&nbsp; This might look something like the
          following:<br>
          <br>
          <span style="font-family:Times">For all requests:<br>
            &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
            request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in
            the destination-host AVP<br>
            &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is
            a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the
            destination-host AVP:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
          </span><br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
              lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
              Steve,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
              your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the
              server, the Host type OLR should not be sent unmodified in
              forwarded answers, or even removed as irrelevant.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And
              in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be
              likely lower than the reduction needed for a node. S1 is
              not overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm (S1+S2) is
              overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host should
              apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type
              OLR.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">By
              the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the
              relation between the first and the second conditions is an
              "IF NOT".
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  Steve Donovan [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:39<br>
                  <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen;
                  Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                  <b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                  OC-Report-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we
            have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic
            targeted for that realm, independent of the presence or
            absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is that correct?<br>
            <br>
            I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload
            report should take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
            <br>
            My reasoning is as follows:<br>
            <br>
            - There is something responsible for tracking the health of
            the realm.&nbsp; Call it the "realm overload authority".&nbsp; The
            health of the realm can be based on a number of factors
            including the health of individual servers, individual
            agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.<br>
            <br>
            - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the
            IP network is congested, for instance, it would instruct
            agents or servers to send realm overload reports with the
            expectation that the overall traffic sent to the realm as a
            whole will be reduced.<br>
            <br>
            In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded
            takes precedence over the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such,
            it is likely that requests targeted for a healthy server
            will be throttled.<br>
            <br>
            I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
            <br>
            For all requests:<br>
            &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
            request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
            &nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the
            request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
            <br>
            Note that this also requires the ability to put realm
            overload reports in any answer message, not just answers to
            requests that did not contain a destination-host AVP.<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Lioenl <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&Agrave;&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Cc: ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>"wording" here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Lioenl<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>De : DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&Agrave; : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Cc : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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              </blockquote>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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The we have disagreement on the definition of the Realm overload report.

Multiple times it has been said the that realm report applied to all
requests, independent of the content or presence of the destination-host
AVP.

A realm overload report is of limited value if it does not apply to all
traffic sent to the realm.  It is a needed tool to protect a realm from
a network wide issue that cannot be detected by just looking at the
overload status of individual servers.

Steve

On 2/11/14 4:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
>  
>
> I agree with Ulrich comments, since I agree on the basic approach as
> mentioned already in this thread (inline with JJ comments as well):
>
>  
>
> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is
> known
>
> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host
> is not known (only the Destination realm).
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM
> *To:* lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>;
> Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  
>
> Lionel,
>
> Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is
> perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction
> when there are no servers in overload.
>
> */<Ulrich> I don't think so</Ulrich>/*
>
>   This could happen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload
> report is triggered by layer 3 congestion.
>
> Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server
> overload, but that isn't the only consideration.
>
> */<Ulrich> all considerations other than server overload are (or
> should be) out of scope. (May be covered by agent overload
> control)</Ulrich>/*
>
> My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is
> no reason to do the host throttling if the request has already been
> throttled by the realm report.
> It should be as follows:
>
> For all requests:
>   If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
>   If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host
> overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
> One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm
> abatement algorithm and input that into the server abatement
> algorithm.  This might look something like the following:
>
> For all requests:
>   If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
>     If request is throttled:
>       Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the
> destination-host AVP
>   If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host
> overload report that applies to the request:
>     If host credits exist for the host indicated in the
> destination-host AVP:
>       Decrement host credit by one
>     else:
>       Apply host based throttling logic to that request
> */<Ulrich> sounds quite complicated</Ulrich>/*
> Steve
>
> On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>     Hi Steve,
>
>      
>
>     In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the
>     server, the Host type OLR should not be sent unmodified in
>     forwarded answers, or even removed as irrelevant.
>
>      
>
>     And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely
>     lower than the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2
>     is 50% overload, the realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the
>     reduction for the Host should apply, why the host-type should
>     prevail over realm-type OLR.
>
>      
>
>     By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the
>     relation between the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".
>
>      
>
>     Lionel
>
>      
>
>     *De :*Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
>     *Envoyé :* lundi 10 février 2014 15:39
>     *À :* MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
>     DE/Munich)
>     *Cc :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>      
>
>     I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all
>     traffic targeted for that realm, independent of the presence or
>     absence of the destination-host avp.  Is that correct?
>
>     I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report
>     should take precedence over the host overload report.
>
>     My reasoning is as follows:
>
>     - There is something responsible for tracking the health of the
>     realm.  Call it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the
>     realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of
>     individual servers, individual agents and the network connecting
>     Diameter entities.
>
>     - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP
>     network is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or
>     servers to send realm overload reports with the expectation that
>     the overall traffic sent to the realm as a whole will be reduced.
>
>     In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes
>     precedence over the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely
>     that requests targeted for a healthy server will be throttled.
>
>     I propose the logic should be as follows:
>
>     For all requests:
>       If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>         Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
>       If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
>         Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
>     Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload
>     reports in any answer message, not just answers to requests that
>     did not contain a destination-host AVP.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
>     <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>         No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)
>
>          
>
>         The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.
>
>          
>
>         Is it clearer?
>
>          
>
>         Lioenl 
>
>          
>
>         -----Message d'origine-----
>
>         De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>         Envoyé : dimanche 9 février 2014 13:46
>
>         À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>         Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>          
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>             Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
>
>             To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>             Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>              
>
>                 I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>
>                 What is wrong with letting the client
>
>                 -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
>
>                 -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
>
>                 -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>
>              
>
>             Isn't this what Lionel said below?
>
>             <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case
>
>         except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?
>
>          
>
>         If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying
>
>         the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.
>
>          
>
>         - Jouni
>
>          
>
>          
>
>             I am OK with Lionel's
>
>             "wording" here.
>
>              
>
>             - Jouni
>
>              
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
>
>                 Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>
>                 To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>
>                  
>
>                 Lioenl
>
>                  
>
>                 De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>
>                 Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:56
>
>                 À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>
>                  
>
>                 If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>
>                  
>
>                 I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>
>                  
>
>                 Steve
>
>                  
>
>                 On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>                 The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>
>                 If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.
>
>                  
>
>                 Does it make sense?
>
>                  
>
>                 Lionel
>
>                  
>
>                 -----Message d'origine-----
>
>                 De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org] 
>
>                 Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:55
>
>                 À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>
>                 Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>
>                 treatment of a given report type applies.
>
>                 Proposal:
>
>                  
>
>                    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>
>                       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>
>                          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>
>                          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>
>                       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>
>                       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
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>
>                  
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>
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>
>                  
>
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>
>                 DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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>          
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>          
>
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>
>          
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">The we have disagreement
      on the definition of the Realm overload report.<br>
      <br>
      Multiple times it has been said the that realm report applied to
      all requests, independent of the content or presence of the
      destination-host AVP.<br>
      <br>
      A realm overload report is of limited value if it does not apply
      to all traffic sent to the realm.&nbsp; It is a needed tool to protect
      a realm from a network wide issue that cannot be detected by just
      looking at the overload status of individual servers.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/14 4:51 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello
            all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            agree with Ulrich comments, since I agree on the basic
            approach as mentioned already in this thread (inline with JJ
            comments as well):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">- Host OLR based control applies to
          requests where Destination Host is known<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">- Realm OLR based control applies to
          requests where Destination Host is not known (only the
          Destination realm).<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                ext Steve Donovan [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>;
                Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="DE">Lionel,<br>
            <br>
            Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp;
            It is perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for
            a reduction when there are no servers in overload.</span><span
            style="color:#1F497D" lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;
                I don&#8217;t think so&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp; This could
          happen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload report
          is triggered by layer 3 congestion.<br>
          <br>
          <span lang="DE">Clearly realm overload will be significantly
            influenced by server overload, but that isn't the only
            consideration.</span><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;
                all considerations other than server overload are (or
                should be) out of scope. (May be covered by agent
                overload control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><br>
          <br>
          My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp; <span
            lang="DE">There is no reason to do the host throttling if
            the request has already been throttled by the realm report.<br>
            It should be as follows:<br>
            <br>
            For all requests:<br>
            &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
            request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
            &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is
            a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
            <br>
            One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by
            the realm abatement algorithm and input that into the server
            abatement algorithm.&nbsp;
          </span>This might look something like the following:<br>
          <br>
          <span style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">For
            all requests:<br>
            &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
            request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in
            the destination-host AVP<br>
            &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is
            a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the
            destination-host AVP:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
          </span><b><i><span style="color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; sounds
                quite complicated&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="DE">Hi Steve,</span><span lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="DE">&nbsp;</span><span lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
              your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the
              server, the Host type OLR should not be sent unmodified in
              forwarded answers, or even removed as irrelevant.</span><span
              lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span
              lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And
              in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be
              likely lower than the reduction needed for a node. S1 is
              not overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm (S1+S2) is
              overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host should
              apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type
              OLR.</span><span lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span
              lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">By
              the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the
              relation between the first and the second conditions is an
              "IF NOT".
            </span><span lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span
              lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><span
              lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span
              lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="DE">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="DE"> Steve Donovan [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:39<br>
                  <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen;
                  Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                  <b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                  OC-Report-Type AVP</span><span lang="DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
              lang="DE">I think we have agreement that a realm report
              applies to all traffic targeted for that realm,
              independent of the presence or absence of the
              destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is that correct?<br>
              <br>
              I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload
              report should take precedence over the host overload
              report.<br>
              <br>
              My reasoning is as follows:<br>
              <br>
              - There is something responsible for tracking the health
              of the realm.&nbsp; Call it the "realm overload authority".&nbsp;
              The health of the realm can be based on a number of
              factors including the health of individual servers,
              individual agents and the network connecting Diameter
              entities.<br>
              <br>
              - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the
              IP network is congested, for instance, it would instruct
              agents or servers to send realm overload reports with the
              expectation that the overall traffic sent to the realm as
              a whole will be reduced.<br>
              <br>
              In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded
              takes precedence over the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such,
              it is likely that requests targeted for a healthy server
              will be throttled.<br>
              <br>
              I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
              <br>
              For all requests:<br>
              &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
              request:<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
              &nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the
              request:<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
              <br>
              Note that this also requires the ability to put realm
              overload reports in any answer message, not just answers
              to requests that did not contain a destination-host AVP.<br>
              <br>
              Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                  lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre><span lang="DE">No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">Lioenl <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&Agrave;&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">Cc: ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre><span lang="DE">I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">- Jouni<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><span lang="DE">I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">"wording" here.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">- Jouni<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">To: Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Lioenl<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">De : DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&Agrave; : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Lionel<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">De : dime issue tracker [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Cc : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests overload<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to requests<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
                <pre><span lang="DE"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <pre><span lang="DE">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE">they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE">If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span lang="DE">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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</pre>
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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I share the below understanding from Maria-Cruz.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 4:22 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hello all,

I agree with Ulrich comments, since I agree on the basic approach as mentio=
ned already in this thread (inline with JJ comments as well):


- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is know=
n

- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not=
 known (only the Destination realm).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Jouni Korhon=
en; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Lionel,

Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is perfectl=
y valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there are n=
o servers in overload.
<Ulrich> I don't think so</Ulrich>
  This could happen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload report=
 is triggered by layer 3 congestion.

Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server overload,=
 but that isn't the only consideration.
<Ulrich> all considerations other than server overload are (or should be) o=
ut of scope. (May be covered by agent overload control)</Ulrich>

My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is no re=
ason to do the host throttling if the request has already been throttled by=
 the realm report.
It should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.  This mig=
ht look something like the following:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
    If request is throttled:
      Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the destinatio=
n-host AVP
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    If host credits exist for the host indicated in the destination-host AV=
P:
      Decrement host credit by one
    else:
      Apply host based throttling logic to that request
<Ulrich> sounds quite complicated</Ulrich>
Steve
On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
Hi Steve,

In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Ho=
st type OLR should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even rem=
oved as irrelevant.

And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than=
 the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, t=
he realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host shou=
ld apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.

By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between=
 the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".

Lionel

De : Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39
=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich=
)
Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic target=
ed for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destinatio=
n-host avp.  Is that correct?

I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report should tak=
e precedence over the host overload report.

My reasoning is as follows:

- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.  Cal=
l it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the realm can be based =
on a number of factors including the health of individual servers, individu=
al agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.

- When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network is co=
ngested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to send realm ov=
erload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent to the re=
alm as a whole will be reduced.

In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that requests targeted=
 for a healthy server will be throttled.

I propose the logic should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
  If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)



The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested=
 for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is rece=
ived for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies,=
 *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.



Is it clearer?



Lioenl



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.o=
rg>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Do=
novan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely ex=
treme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at al=
l, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why shou=
ld a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not =
at all overloaded S1?

What is wrong with letting the client

-not throttle host-type requests to S1,

-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and

-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?



Isn't this what Lionel said below?

<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>





Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case

except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?



If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying

the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.



- Jouni





I am OK with Lionel's

"wording" here.



- Jouni









From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@or=
ange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM

To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing pr=
inciples: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destinati=
on-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is =
an explicit report for the destination-host.



Lioenl



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targe=
ted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it =
would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.



If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the int=
eraction between realm reports and host reports.



I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host secon=
d.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm o=
verload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction ne=
eded to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm=
 abatement would then be candidates for host overload.



Steve



On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibit=
ed for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm=
, whatever the nodes inside this realm?

If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reac=
ting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the=
 realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... exc=
ept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this de=
stination-host.



Does it make sense?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload

treatment of a given report type applies.

Proposal:



   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests

      for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value

         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.







   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to

      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.





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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.






___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.


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</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I share the below underst=
anding from Maria-Cruz.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 11, 2014 4:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree with Ulrich commen=
ts, since I agree on the basic approach as mentioned already in this thread=
 (inline with JJ comments as well):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Host OLR based control applies to requests wher=
e Destination Host is known<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">- Realm OLR based control applies to requests whe=
re Destination Host is not known (only the Destination realm).<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [<a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@us=
donovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange=
.com</a>; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"DE">Lio=
nel,<br>
<br>
Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp; It is per=
fectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there =
are no servers in overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; I don&#8217;t think so&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i>=
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp; This could hap=
pen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload report is triggered by=
 layer 3 congestion.<br>
<br>
<span lang=3D"DE">Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced b=
y server overload, but that isn't the only consideration.</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; all considerations other than server overload ar=
e (or should be) out of scope. (May be covered by agent overload
 control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><br>
<br>
My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp; <span lan=
g=3D"DE">There is no reason to do the host throttling if the request has al=
ready been throttled by the realm report.<br>
It should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.&nbsp;
</span>This might look something like the following:<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Times">For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicat=
ed in the destination-host AVP<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the dest=
ination-host AVP:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request=
<br>
</span><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt; sounds quite comp=
licated&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve,</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In your example, if an ag=
ent has a better knowledge than the server, the Host type OLR should not be=
 sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even removed as
 irrelevant.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And in a normal case, the=
 reduction for the realm will be likely lower than the reduction needed for=
 a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm
 (S1&#43;S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host should a=
pply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">By the way, in your propo=
sed logic, it is not clear if the relation between the first and the second=
 conditions is an &quot;IF NOT&quot;.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Steve Donovan [<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"DE">I t=
hink we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic targeted =
for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destination-h=
ost avp.&nbsp; Is that correct?<br>
<br>
I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload report shoul=
d take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
<br>
My reasoning is as follows:<br>
<br>
- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.&nbsp=
; Call it the &quot;realm overload authority&quot;.&nbsp; The health of the=
 realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of individu=
al servers, individual agents and the network connecting
 Diameter entities.<br>
<br>
- When this &quot;realm overload authority&quot; determines that the IP net=
work is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to sen=
d realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent=
 to the realm as a whole will be reduced.<br>
<br>
In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is likely that requests tar=
geted for a healthy server will be throttled.<br>
<br>
I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.<br>
<br>
Steve</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a href=3D"mai=
lto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">No it was not my intention and it is why it was writ=
ten &quot;except&quot; :)</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit=
 reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i=
.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a =
reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied=
.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Is it clearer?</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Lioenl </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-----Message d'origine-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Envoy=E9&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-=
Report-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wieh=
e@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM</span><o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Cc: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">=
lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.or=
g">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Repo=
rt-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wieh=
e@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is no=
t ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 =
is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm ov=
erload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host ty=
pe requests to the not at all overloaded S1?</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">What is wrong with letting the client</span><o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-not throttle host-type requests to S1,</span><o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?</span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Isn't this what Lionel said below?</span><o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Ok, maybe I misread the &quot;realm abatement is app=
lied in any case</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">except if there is an explicit report for the destin=
ation-host&quot;?</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">If this means the realm abatement is still applied a=
fter applying</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same =
you said.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">- Jouni</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">I am OK with Lionel's</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&quot;wording&quot; here.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">- Jouni</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org"=
>mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a href=3D"mailto:lione=
l.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM</span><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">To: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">=
dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Repo=
rt-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logi=
c as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when=
 present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any c=
ase except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.</span><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Lioenl</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">=
mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan</span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56</span><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org=
</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Repor=
t-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">It makes more sense to me for a realm report to appl=
y to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.=
&nbsp; This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destin=
ation-Host specified.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">If this is the definition of a realm report then we =
need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">I propose that throttling would occur on the realm f=
irst and the host second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is thro=
ttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count=
 as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messag=
es to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for ho=
st overload.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Steve</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">The case &quot;Realm&quot; as described below raises=
 another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global ov=
erload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">If not, only OLR with the report type &quot;realm&qu=
ot; would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in =
the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destinati=
on-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type &q=
uot;Host&quot; as been received for this destination-host.</span><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Does it make sense?</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">-----Message d'origine-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;=
dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] </s=
pan><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55</span><o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org<=
/a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
/span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to w=
hich requests overload</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">treatment of a given report type applies.</span><o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Proposal:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overlo=
ad treatment should apply to requests</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the =
following conditions are true:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Ho=
st AVP is present in the request and its value</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mat=
ches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message</span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tha=
t contained the OC-OLR AVP.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the D=
estination-Realm AVP in the request matches the</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; val=
ue of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tha=
t contained the OC-OLR AVP.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the A=
pplication-ID in the Diameter Header of the</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; req=
uest matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter</span><o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hea=
der of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.</span><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overl=
oad treatment should apply to</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which al=
l of the following conditions are true:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Ho=
st AVP is absent in the request.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the D=
estination-Realm AVP in the request matches the</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; val=
ue of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tha=
t contained the OC-OLR AVP.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the A=
pplication-ID in the Diameter Header of the</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; req=
uest matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter</span><o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hea=
der of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.</span><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
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tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">This message and its attachments may contain confide=
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essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Thank you.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">_______________________________________________</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">DiME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre><span lang=3D"DE"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dim=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
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</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><=
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<pre><span lang=3D"DE">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
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ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><o:p></=
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<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Thank you.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________</span=
><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">Thank you.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Tue Feb 11 04:32:46 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to	be rethought
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to	be rethought
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I agree that OC-OLR AVPs are allowed only in answer messages.

But I do not agree with=20
>> if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
>> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
>> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.

"other DOIC AVPs" would be AVPs defined for future extensions. A reporting =
node that does not support any future extension would simply ignore "other =
DOIC AVPs" and would interprete the absence of OC-Supported-Features as "DO=
IC not supported by any downstream node".

Things are not symmetric.
Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Jouni Korhonen
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:45 AM
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: ben@nostrum.com; dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs t=
o be rethought


Your assumption is correct. "Other DOIC AVPs" is a future thing.
Currently we have no other DOIC AVPs for requests. It is just I
asking the same semantics for the OC-Supported-Features for both
directions.

- Jouni


On Feb 11, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> It has been my assumption that the OC-OLR AVP would only be allowed in an=
swer messages.  Is this the consensus?
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/10/14 4:27 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>> Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
>> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
>> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
>> We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan=20
>> <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the OC-Support=
ed-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means that the AVP m=
ust be included in all request messages sent by a reacting node.
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>>>>=20
>>>>  The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>>>>  Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a capabilitie=
s
>>>>  announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime =
to
>>>>  Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different capabi=
lity
>>>>  sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for non-sess=
ion
>>>>  applications or pseudo-sessions.)
>>>>=20
>>>>  I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are stateless=
,
>>>>  that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a response=
 must
>>>>  match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
>>>>  Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set associate=
d
>>>>  with a capabilities set.
>>>>=20
>>>>  (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting agent=
s. If
>>>>  we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
>>>>  negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>=20
>=20

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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On 2/11/14 3:54 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM
> *To:* lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
> DE/Munich)
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  
>
> Lionel,
>
> Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is
> perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction
> when there are no servers in overload.
>
> */<Ulrich> I don't think so</Ulrich>/*
>
/*<srd> I do think so. */
>
> *//*
>
>   This could happen in the case I mentioned where the realm overload
> report is triggered by layer 3 congestion.
>
> Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server
> overload, but that isn't the only consideration.
>
> */<Ulrich> all considerations other than server overload are (or
> should be) out of scope. (May be covered by agent overload
> control)</Ulrich>/*
>
<srd> I disagree. We are building tools for a service provider to
protect their network.  We aren't specifying how the status of a realm
is determined, we are giving the ability for a service provider to
protect the network in extreme conditions.  In addition, this has
nothing to do with agent overload.  Overload status of an agent would be
an input into realm overload status but the overload of an individual
agent cannot and should not be interpreted as overload of a realm.
>
>
> My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is
> no reason to do the host throttling if the request has already been
> throttled by the realm report.
> It should be as follows:
>
> For all requests:
>   If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
>   If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host
> overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
> One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm
> abatement algorithm and input that into the server abatement
> algorithm.  This might look something like the following:
>
> For all requests:
>   If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>     Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
>     If request is throttled:
>       Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the
> destination-host AVP
>   If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host
> overload report that applies to the request:
>     If host credits exist for the host indicated in the
> destination-host AVP:
>       Decrement host credit by one
>     else:
>       Apply host based throttling logic to that request
> */<Ulrich> sounds quite complicated</Ulrich>/*
>
srd> Looks pretty straight forward to me.  Even if it is complication,
so what?  We are talking about protecting a Diameter network from a
condition that can cause operators to lose a lot of money.  A little
complexity is acceptable.  This, of course, would not be normative.  The
normative definition would be that the reacting node must decrease
traffic to the realm by the requested reduction.  Applications can
define different reduction algorithms.  Implementations can take
different approaches.  This would just be the suggested approach.

> Steve
>
> On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>     Hi Steve,
>
>      
>
>     In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the
>     server, the Host type OLR should not be sent unmodified in
>     forwarded answers, or even removed as irrelevant.
>
>      
>
>     And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely
>     lower than the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2
>     is 50% overload, the realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the
>     reduction for the Host should apply, why the host-type should
>     prevail over realm-type OLR.
>
>      
>
>     By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the
>     relation between the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".
>
>      
>
>     Lionel
>
>      
>
>     *De :*Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
>     *Envoyé :* lundi 10 février 2014 15:39
>     *À :* MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
>     DE/Munich)
>     *Cc :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>      
>
>     I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all
>     traffic targeted for that realm, independent of the presence or
>     absence of the destination-host avp.  Is that correct?
>
>     I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report
>     should take precedence over the host overload report.
>
>     My reasoning is as follows:
>
>     - There is something responsible for tracking the health of the
>     realm.  Call it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the
>     realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of
>     individual servers, individual agents and the network connecting
>     Diameter entities.
>
>     - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP
>     network is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or
>     servers to send realm overload reports with the expectation that
>     the overall traffic sent to the realm as a whole will be reduced.
>
>     In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes
>     precedence over the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely
>     that requests targeted for a healthy server will be throttled.
>
>     I propose the logic should be as follows:
>
>     For all requests:
>       If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>         Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
>       If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
>         Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
>     Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload
>     reports in any answer message, not just answers to requests that
>     did not contain a destination-host AVP.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
>     <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>         No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)
>
>          
>
>         The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.
>
>          
>
>         Is it clearer?
>
>          
>
>         Lioenl 
>
>          
>
>         -----Message d'origine-----
>
>         De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>         Envoyé : dimanche 9 février 2014 13:46
>
>         À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>         Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>          
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>             Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
>
>             To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>             Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>              
>
>                 I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>
>                 What is wrong with letting the client
>
>                 -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
>
>                 -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
>
>                 -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>
>              
>
>             Isn't this what Lionel said below?
>
>             <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case
>
>         except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?
>
>          
>
>         If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying
>
>         the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.
>
>          
>
>         - Jouni
>
>          
>
>          
>
>             I am OK with Lionel's
>
>             "wording" here.
>
>              
>
>             - Jouni
>
>              
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
>
>                 Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>
>                 To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>
>                  
>
>                 Lioenl
>
>                  
>
>                 De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>
>                 Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:56
>
>                 À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>
>                  
>
>                 If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>
>                  
>
>                 I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>
>                  
>
>                 Steve
>
>                  
>
>                 On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>                 The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>
>                 If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.
>
>                  
>
>                 Does it make sense?
>
>                  
>
>                 Lionel
>
>                  
>
>                 -----Message d'origine-----
>
>                 De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org] 
>
>                 Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:55
>
>                 À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>
>                 Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                 Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>
>                 treatment of a given report type applies.
>
>                 Proposal:
>
>                  
>
>                    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>
>                       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>
>                          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>
>                          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>
>                       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>
>                       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>                  
>
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>
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>
>                 a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>
>                 Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>                  
>
>                 This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>
>                 they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>
>                 If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>
>                 As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>
>                 Thank you.
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>
>                 DiME mailing list
>
>                 DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>              
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>          
>
>         Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>
>         pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>
>         a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>
>         Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>          
>
>         This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>
>         they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>
>         If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>
>         As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>
>         Thank you.
>
>          
>
>          
>
>      
>
>     _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>      
>
>     Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>
>     pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>
>     a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>
>     Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>      
>
>     This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>
>     they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>
>     If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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>  
>


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    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/14 3:54 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> ext Steve Donovan
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 6:52 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Jouni Korhonen;
                Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Lionel,<br>
          <br>
          Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp;
          It is perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a
          reduction when there are no servers in overload.<span
            style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; I don&#8217;t think
                so&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <i><b>&lt;srd&gt; I do think so. </b></i><br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B29D6@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">&nbsp; This could happen in the case I mentioned
            where the realm overload report is triggered by layer 3
            congestion.<br>
            <br>
          </span>Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced
          by server overload, but that isn't the only consideration.<span
            style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; all considerations other
                than server overload are (or should be) out of scope.
                (May be covered by agent overload
                control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><span lang="EN-US"><br>
          </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    &lt;srd&gt; I disagree. We are building tools for a service provider
    to protect their network.&nbsp; We aren't specifying how the status of a
    realm is determined, we are giving the ability for a service
    provider to protect the network in extreme conditions.&nbsp; In addition,
    this has nothing to do with agent overload.&nbsp; Overload status of an
    agent would be an input into realm overload status but the overload
    of an individual agent cannot and should not be interpreted as
    overload of a realm.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B29D6@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">
            <br>
            My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp;
          </span>There is no reason to do the host throttling if the
          request has already been throttled by the realm report.<br>
          It should be as follows:<br>
          <br>
          For all requests:<br>
          &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
          request:<br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
          &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a
          host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
          <br>
          One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the
          realm abatement algorithm and input that into the server
          abatement algorithm.&nbsp;
          <span lang="EN-US">This might look something like the
            following:<br>
            <br>
          </span><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
            lang="EN-US">For all requests:<br>
            &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
            request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in
            the destination-host AVP<br>
            &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is
            a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the
            destination-host AVP:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
          </span><b><i><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;
                sounds quite complicated&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><span
            lang="EN-US"><br>
          </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    srd&gt; Looks pretty straight forward to me.&nbsp; Even if it is
    complication, so what?&nbsp; We are talking about protecting a Diameter
    network from a condition that can cause operators to lose a lot of
    money.&nbsp; A little complexity is acceptable.&nbsp; This, of course, would
    not be normative.&nbsp; The normative definition would be that the
    reacting node must decrease traffic to the realm by the requested
    reduction.&nbsp; Applications can define different reduction algorithms.&nbsp;
    Implementations can take different approaches.&nbsp; This would just be
    the suggested approach.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B29D6@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">
            Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
              lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
              Steve,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">In your example, if an agent has a better
              knowledge than the server, the Host type OLR should not be
              sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even removed as
              irrelevant.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">And in a normal case, the reduction for the
              realm will be likely lower than the reduction needed for a
              node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm
              (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the
              Host should apply, why the host-type should prevail over
              realm-type OLR.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not
              clear if the relation between the first and the second
              conditions is an "IF NOT".
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  Steve Donovan [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:39<br>
                  <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen;
                  Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                  <b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                  OC-Report-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we
            have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic
            targeted for that realm, independent of the presence or
            absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is that correct?<br>
            <br>
            I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload
            report should take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
            <br>
            My reasoning is as follows:<br>
            <br>
            - There is something responsible for tracking the health of
            the realm.&nbsp; Call it the "realm overload authority".&nbsp; The
            health of the realm can be based on a number of factors
            including the health of individual servers, individual
            agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.<br>
            <br>
            - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the
            IP network is congested, for instance, it would instruct
            agents or servers to send realm overload reports with the
            expectation that the overall traffic sent to the realm as a
            whole will be reduced.<br>
            <br>
            In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded
            takes precedence over the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such,
            it is likely that requests targeted for a healthy server
            will be throttled.<br>
            <br>
            I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
            <br>
            For all requests:<br>
            &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
            request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
            &nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the
            request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
            <br>
            Note that this also requires the ability to put realm
            overload reports in any answer message, not just answers to
            requests that did not contain a destination-host AVP.<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Lioenl <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&Agrave;&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Cc: ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>"wording" here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Lioenl<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>De : DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&Agrave; : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Cc : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 12:33:22 +0000
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Steve,

I still don't understand how this work.
If a host (within the realm) is more overloaded than the realm itself, is i=
t justified to throttle the traffic towards this host with realm-report?
If yes, can it guarantee the overload mitigation of the server?
If yes, what is the use of host report when realm report is provided. Can w=
e simply say that the reacting node simply forgets the host report when rea=
lm report is available?

Regards,
Nirav.

From: Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:50 PM
To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, =
Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

The definition of a realm overload report is to decrease the total number o=
f requests sent to the realm.  The algorithm suggests one way of achieving =
the reduction of traffic.  Other approaches could clearly be taken, as long=
 as the total amount of traffic to the realm is reduced.

Steve

On 2/11/14 3:57 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
Steve,

I don't understand one aspect.
Why should the request be throttled with realm report when the request is t=
argeted to a particular host within the realm.
Can this request be routed to another host in that realm? If not, the reque=
st should be subjected to the throttling based on the host report.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 11:22 PM
To: lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Jouni Korhon=
en; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Lionel,

Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is perfectl=
y valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there are n=
o servers in overload.  This could happen in the case I mentioned where the=
 realm overload report is triggered by layer 3 congestion.

Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server overload,=
 but that isn't the only consideration.

My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There is no re=
ason to do the host throttling if the request has already been throttled by=
 the realm report.
It should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.  This mig=
ht look something like the following:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
    If request is throttled:
      Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the destinatio=
n-host AVP
  If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host overloa=
d report that applies to the request:
    If host credits exist for the host indicated in the destination-host AV=
P:
      Decrement host credit by one
    else:
      Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Steve
On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
Hi Steve,

In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the server, the Ho=
st type OLR should not be sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even rem=
oved as irrelevant.

And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be likely lower than=
 the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, t=
he realm (S1+S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host shou=
ld apply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.

By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the relation between=
 the first and the second conditions is an "IF NOT".

Lionel

De : Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39
=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich=
)
Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic target=
ed for that realm, independent of the presence or absence of the destinatio=
n-host avp.  Is that correct?

I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload report should tak=
e precedence over the host overload report.

My reasoning is as follows:

- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.  Cal=
l it the "realm overload authority".  The health of the realm can be based =
on a number of factors including the health of individual servers, individu=
al agents and the network connecting Diameter entities.

- When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP network is co=
ngested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to send realm ov=
erload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent to the re=
alm as a whole will be reduced.

In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.  As such, it is likely that requests targeted=
 for a healthy server will be throttled.

I propose the logic should be as follows:

For all requests:
  If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
  If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
    Apply host based throttling logic to that request

Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.

Steve
On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)



The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested=
 for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is rece=
ived for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies,=
 *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.



Is it clearer?



Lioenl



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Envoy=E9 : dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.o=
rg>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Do=
novan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely ex=
treme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at al=
l, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why shou=
ld a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not =
at all overloaded S1?

What is wrong with letting the client

-not throttle host-type requests to S1,

-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and

-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?



Isn't this what Lionel said below?

<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>





Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case

except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?



If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying

the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.



- Jouni





I am OK with Lionel's

"wording" here.



- Jouni









From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@or=
ange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM

To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing pr=
inciples: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destinati=
on-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is =
an explicit report for the destination-host.



Lioenl



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targe=
ted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it =
would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.



If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the int=
eraction between realm reports and host reports.



I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host secon=
d.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm o=
verload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction ne=
eded to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm=
 abatement would then be candidates for host overload.



Steve



On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibit=
ed for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm=
, whatever the nodes inside this realm?

If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reac=
ting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the=
 realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... exc=
ept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this de=
stination-host.



Does it make sense?



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload

treatment of a given report type applies.

Proposal:



   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests

      for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value

         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.







   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to

      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.





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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



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they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I still don&#8217;t under=
stand how this work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">If a host (within the rea=
lm) is more overloaded than the realm itself, is it justified to throttle t=
he traffic towards this host with realm-report?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">If yes, can it guarantee =
the overload mitigation of the server?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">If yes, what is the use o=
f host report when realm report is provided. Can we simply say that the rea=
cting node simply forgets the host report when realm report
 is available?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen; =
Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">The definition of a r=
ealm overload report is to decrease the total number of requests sent to th=
e realm.&nbsp; The algorithm suggests one way of achieving the reduction of=
 traffic.&nbsp; Other approaches could clearly
 be taken, as long as the total amount of traffic to the realm is reduced.<=
br>
<br>
Steve<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/11/14 3:57 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Steve,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I don&#8217;t understand =
one aspect.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Why should the request be=
 throttled with realm report when the request is targeted to a particular h=
ost within the realm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Can this request be route=
d to another host in that realm? If not, the request should be subjected to=
 the throttling based on the host report.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 11:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange=
.com</a>; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Lionel,<br>
<br>
Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp; It is per=
fectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction when there =
are no servers in overload.&nbsp; This could happen in the case I mentioned=
 where the realm overload report is triggered
 by layer 3 congestion.<br>
<br>
Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server overload,=
 but that isn't the only consideration.<br>
<br>
My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp; There is =
no reason to do the host throttling if the request has already been throttl=
ed by the realm report.<br>
It should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the realm abatem=
ent algorithm and input that into the server abatement algorithm.&nbsp; Thi=
s might look something like the following:<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Times">For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicat=
ed in the destination-host AVP<br>
&nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is a host ov=
erload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the dest=
ination-host AVP:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request=
<br>
</span><br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In your example, if an ag=
ent has a better knowledge than the server, the Host type OLR should not be=
 sent unmodified in forwarded answers, or even removed as
 irrelevant.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And in a normal case, the=
 reduction for the realm will be likely lower than the reduction needed for=
 a node. S1 is not overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm
 (S1&#43;S2) is overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host should a=
pply, why the host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">By the way, in your propo=
sed logic, it is not clear if the relation between the first and the second=
 conditions is an &quot;IF NOT&quot;.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Steve Donovan [<a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@us=
donovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 15:39<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we have agree=
ment that a realm report applies to all traffic targeted for that realm, in=
dependent of the presence or absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is =
that correct?<br>
<br>
I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload report shoul=
d take precedence over the host overload report.<br>
<br>
My reasoning is as follows:<br>
<br>
- There is something responsible for tracking the health of the realm.&nbsp=
; Call it the &quot;realm overload authority&quot;.&nbsp; The health of the=
 realm can be based on a number of factors including the health of individu=
al servers, individual agents and the network connecting
 Diameter entities.<br>
<br>
- When this &quot;realm overload authority&quot; determines that the IP net=
work is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents or servers to sen=
d realm overload reports with the expectation that the overall traffic sent=
 to the realm as a whole will be reduced.<br>
<br>
In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes precedence ov=
er the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such, it is likely that requests tar=
geted for a healthy server will be throttled.<br>
<br>
I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
<br>
For all requests:<br>
&nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
&nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
<br>
Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload reports in a=
ny answer message, not just answers to requests that did not contain a dest=
ination-host AVP.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written &quot;except&q=
uot; :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requ=
ested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is=
 received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also app=
lies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f=E9vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime=
@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">ma=
ilto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</=
a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlike=
ly extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded =
at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why=
 should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the=
 not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ok, maybe I misread the &quot;realm abatement is applied in any case<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host&quot;?<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;wording&quot; here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routi=
ng principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Dest=
ination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if ther=
e is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lioenl<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests =
targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implie=
s that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specifi=
ed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify th=
e interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host =
second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result =
of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the re=
duction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host tha=
t survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel=
.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The case &quot;Realm&quot; as described below raises another question:=
 is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for =
the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If not, only OLR with the report type &quot;realm&quot; would be recei=
ved by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply=
 always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the=
 request... except if an explicit report with the type &quot;Host&quot; as =
been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests over=
load<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shoul=
d apply to requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditio=
ns are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present =
in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of =
the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment shou=
ld apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following=
 conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent i=
n the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm A=
VP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-R=
ealm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC=
-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:40:59 -0600
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Agreed, there is nothing contentious here.  I agree that the report
applies only to the application ID included in the message carrying the
overload report. 

Ulrich's wording isn't clear on which messages are being referenced.  Or
I wasn't looking at full context.  It might be better to try to change
the proposed wording from:
How about changing Ulrich's proposal from:

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

to the following:

"The value of the application-ID in the Diameter Header of new request
messages matches the value of the Application-ID is an active overload
report."

Steve

On 2/11/14 4:50 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> I think that there is no contentious issue here :)
> I think that Ulrich is right saying that the reacting node needs to take into account the application-id to perform the abatement. Not when receiving the OLR... but when sending a new request.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Envoyé : mardi 11 février 2014 11:43
> À : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Exact, I agree.
> Cheers
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 10:37
> To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Steve,
>
> I do not agree.
>
> e.g. 
> 1. reacting node sends Request with application ID = x to reporting node 2. reporting node sends back answer (containing an OLR) with application ID = x 3. reacting node now may very well send  a new request with application ID = y to the reporting node without breaking any Diameter rules. 
> The new request sent in step 3 is NOT subject to throttling according to the OLR received in step 2.
> I hope this is not contentious.
> In order to provide a complete list of conditions to say when an OLR of a given type applies to a new request, we should not let c) go by the board.
>
> Ulrich
>
>
>  
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:44 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
>>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>> No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers to 
>> the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.
>> <Ulrich>yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not harm 
>> to keep c)</Ulrich>
> SRD> I don't see the reason for including this statement.  By
> definition, an overload report
> applies to the application ID in the answer message.  There is no way for the application-id in the answer message to be different than the application-id in the request message without breaking Diameter.
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Agreed, there is nothing
      contentious here.&nbsp; I agree that the report applies only to the
      application ID included in the message carrying the overload
      report.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      Ulrich's wording isn't clear on which messages are being
      referenced.&nbsp; Or I wasn't looking at full context.&nbsp; It might be
      better to try to change the proposed wording from:<br>
      How about changing Ulrich's proposal from:<br>
    </font><br>
    <pre wrap="">      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.</pre>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">to the following:<br>
      <br>
      "The value of the application-ID in the Diameter Header of new
      request messages matches the value of the Application-ID is an
      active overload report."<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/14 4:50 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:14115_1392115821_52FA006D_14115_2918_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E499C02@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I think that there is no contentious issue here :)
I think that Ulrich is right saying that the reacting node needs to take into account the application-id to perform the abatement. Not when receiving the OLR... but when sending a new request.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: mardi 11 f&eacute;vrier 2014 11:43
&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Exact, I agree.
Cheers
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 10:37
To: ext Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Steve,

I do not agree.

e.g. 
1. reacting node sends Request with application ID = x to reporting node 2. reporting node sends back answer (containing an OLR) with application ID = x 3. reacting node now may very well send  a new request with application ID = y to the reporting node without breaking any Diameter rules. 
The new request sent in step 3 is NOT subject to throttling according to the OLR received in step 2.
I hope this is not contentious.
In order to provide a complete list of conditions to say when an OLR of a given type applies to a new request, we should not let c) go by the board.

Ulrich


 


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:44 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers to 
the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.
&lt;Ulrich&gt;yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not harm 
to keep c)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">SRD&gt; I don't see the reason for including this statement.  By
definition, an overload report
applies to the application ID in the answer message.  There is no way for the application-id in the answer message to be different than the application-id in the request message without breaking Diameter.

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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Nirav,

I'm saying that the two are independent conditions, treated separately.

A reacting node receiving both a realm report and a host report must do
two things -- reduce the traffic to the realm by the percentage
requested in the realm report and reduce the traffic sent to the host by
the amount requested in the host report.

The algorithm I suggested achieved this, but is only a suggestion. 
Implementations can do it any way they want, as long as the above two
requirements are met.

More inline.

Steve

On 2/11/14 6:33 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> I still don't understand how this work.
>
> If a host (within the realm) is more overloaded than the realm itself,
> is it justified to throttle the traffic towards this host with
> realm-report?
>
SRD> Yes, messages that are throttled because of a throttling to the
host can, and probably should be counted in the separate count of
messages throttled for the realm.
>
> If yes, can it guarantee the overload mitigation of the server?
>
SRD> The reacting node is responsible for reducing the traffic sent to
the server by the requested amount.  So, if the reacting node is doing
its job then yes.
>
> If yes, what is the use of host report when realm report is provided.
> Can we simply say that the reacting node simply forgets the host
> report when realm report is available?
>
SRD> A hosts overload condition is separate from a realms overload
condition.  The host report will clearly be an input to the realms
overload state, but they are separate and should be treated as separate
events.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> Nirav.
>
>  
>
> *From:*Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:50 PM
> *To:* Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; Jouni Korhonen;
> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  
>
> The definition of a realm overload report is to decrease the total
> number of requests sent to the realm.  The algorithm suggests one way
> of achieving the reduction of traffic.  Other approaches could clearly
> be taken, as long as the total amount of traffic to the realm is reduced.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/11/14 3:57 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>
>     Steve,
>
>      
>
>     I don't understand one aspect.
>
>     Why should the request be throttled with realm report when the
>     request is targeted to a particular host within the realm.
>
>     Can this request be routed to another host in that realm? If not,
>     the request should be subjected to the throttling based on the
>     host report.
>
>      
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Nirav.
>
>      
>
>     *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve
>     Donovan
>     *Sent:* Monday, February 10, 2014 11:22 PM
>     *To:* lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>;
>     Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>     *Cc:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>      
>
>     Lionel,
>
>     Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.  It is
>     perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for a reduction
>     when there are no servers in overload.  This could happen in the
>     case I mentioned where the realm overload report is triggered by
>     layer 3 congestion.
>
>     Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by server
>     overload, but that isn't the only consideration.
>
>     My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.  There
>     is no reason to do the host throttling if the request has already
>     been throttled by the realm report.
>     It should be as follows:
>
>     For all requests:
>       If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>         Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
>       If the request has not already been throttled and there is a
>     host overload report that applies to the request:
>         Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
>     One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by the
>     realm abatement algorithm and input that into the server abatement
>     algorithm.  This might look something like the following:
>
>     For all requests:
>       If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>         Apply realm based throttling logic to that request
>         If request is throttled:
>           Increment host credit by one for the host indicated in the
>     destination-host AVP
>       If the request has not already been throttled and there is a
>     host overload report that applies to the request:
>         If host credits exist for the host indicated in the
>     destination-host AVP:
>           Decrement host credit by one
>         else:
>           Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
>     <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>         Hi Steve,
>
>          
>
>         In your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than the
>         server, the Host type OLR should not be sent unmodified in
>         forwarded answers, or even removed as irrelevant.
>
>          
>
>         And in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be
>         likely lower than the reduction needed for a node. S1 is not
>         overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm (S1+S2) is overloaded
>         25%. So only the reduction for the Host should apply, why the
>         host-type should prevail over realm-type OLR.
>
>          
>
>         By the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the
>         relation between the first and the second conditions is an "IF
>         NOT".
>
>          
>
>         Lionel
>
>          
>
>         *De :*Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
>         *Envoyé :* lundi 10 février 2014 15:39
>         *À :* MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich
>         (NSN - DE/Munich)
>         *Cc :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>         *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>          
>
>         I think we have agreement that a realm report applies to all
>         traffic targeted for that realm, independent of the presence
>         or absence of the destination-host avp.  Is that correct?
>
>         I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.  The realm overload
>         report should take precedence over the host overload report.
>
>         My reasoning is as follows:
>
>         - There is something responsible for tracking the health of
>         the realm.  Call it the "realm overload authority".  The
>         health of the realm can be based on a number of factors
>         including the health of individual servers, individual agents
>         and the network connecting Diameter entities.
>
>         - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the IP
>         network is congested, for instance, it would instruct agents
>         or servers to send realm overload reports with the expectation
>         that the overall traffic sent to the realm as a whole will be
>         reduced.
>
>         In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded takes
>         precedence over the health of the servers.  As such, it is
>         likely that requests targeted for a healthy server will be
>         throttled.
>
>         I propose the logic should be as follows:
>
>         For all requests:
>           If there is a realm overload report that applies to the request:
>             Apply realm based trottling logic to that request
>           If there is a host overload report that applies to the request:
>             Apply host based throttling logic to that request
>
>         Note that this also requires the ability to put realm overload
>         reports in any answer message, not just answers to requests
>         that did not contain a destination-host AVP.
>
>         Steve
>
>         On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
>         <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>             No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)
>
>              
>
>             The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.
>
>              
>
>             Is it clearer?
>
>              
>
>             Lioenl 
>
>              
>
>             -----Message d'origine-----
>
>             De : Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>             Envoyé : dimanche 9 février 2014 13:46
>
>             À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>             Cc : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>              
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>
>                 From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
>
>                 Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
>
>                 To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>                 Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                 Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>                  
>
>                     I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>
>                     What is wrong with letting the client
>
>                     -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
>
>                     -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
>
>                     -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>
>                  
>
>                 Isn't this what Lionel said below?
>
>                 <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case
>
>             except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?
>
>              
>
>             If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying
>
>             the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.
>
>              
>
>             - Jouni
>
>              
>
>              
>
>                 I am OK with Lionel's
>
>                 "wording" here.
>
>                  
>
>                 - Jouni
>
>                  
>
>                      
>
>                      
>
>                      
>
>                     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
>
>                     Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>
>                     To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                     Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                      
>
>                     I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>
>                      
>
>                     Lioenl
>
>                      
>
>                     De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>
>                     Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:56
>
>                     À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                     Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                      
>
>                     It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>
>                      
>
>                     If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>
>                      
>
>                     I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>
>                      
>
>                     Steve
>
>                      
>
>                     On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>                     The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>
>                     If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.
>
>                      
>
>                     Does it make sense?
>
>                      
>
>                     Lionel
>
>                      
>
>                     -----Message d'origine-----
>
>                     De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org] 
>
>                     Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:55
>
>                     À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>
>                     Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>                     Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                      
>
>                     #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>                      
>
>                     Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload
>
>                     treatment of a given report type applies.
>
>                     Proposal:
>
>                      
>
>                        0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>
>                           for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                           a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>
>                              matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>
>                              that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                           b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                              value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                              that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                           c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                              request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                              Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                      
>
>                      
>
>                      
>
>                        1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>
>                           requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>
>                           a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>
>                           b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>
>                              value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>
>                              that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                           c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>
>                              request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>
>                              Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>
>                      
>
>                      
>
>                     _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>                      
>
>                     Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>
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>
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>
>                     Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
>                      
>
>                     This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>
>                     they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>
>                     If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>
>                     As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>
>                     Thank you.
>
>                     _______________________________________________
>
>                     DiME mailing list
>
>                     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>                  
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>              
>
>             Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Nirav,<br>
      <br>
      I'm saying that the two are independent conditions, treated
      separately.<br>
      <br>
      A reacting node receiving both a realm report and a host report
      must do two things -- reduce the traffic to the realm by the
      percentage requested in the realm report and reduce the traffic
      sent to the host by the amount requested in the host report.<br>
      <br>
      The algorithm I suggested achieved this, but is only a
      suggestion.&nbsp; Implementations can do it any way they want, as long
      as the above two requirements are met.<br>
      <br>
      More inline.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/14 6:33 AM, Nirav Salot
      (nsalot) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6A9F0@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I
            still don&#8217;t understand how this work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">If
            a host (within the realm) is more overloaded than the realm
            itself, is it justified to throttle the traffic towards this
            host with realm-report?
          </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Yes, messages that are throttled because of a throttling to
    the host can, and probably should be counted in the separate count
    of messages throttled for the realm.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6A9F0@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">If
            yes, can it guarantee the overload mitigation of the server?</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; The reacting node is responsible for reducing the traffic
    sent to the server by the requested amount.&nbsp; So, if the reacting
    node is doing its job then yes.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6A9F0@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">If
            yes, what is the use of host report when realm report is
            provided. Can we simply say that the reacting node simply
            forgets the host report when realm report is available?</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; A hosts overload condition is separate from a realms
    overload condition.&nbsp; The host report will clearly be an input to the
    realms overload state, but they are separate and should be treated
    as separate events.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6A9F0@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                Steve Donovan [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:50 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Nirav Salot (nsalot);
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich
                (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">The definition
          of a realm overload report is to decrease the total number of
          requests sent to the realm.&nbsp; The algorithm suggests one way of
          achieving the reduction of traffic.&nbsp; Other approaches could
          clearly be taken, as long as the total amount of traffic to
          the realm is reduced.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/11/14 3:57 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot)
            wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Steve,
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I
              don&#8217;t understand one aspect.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Why
              should the request be throttled with realm report when the
              request is targeted to a particular host within the realm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Can
              this request be routed to another host in that realm? If
              not, the request should be subjected to the throttling
              based on the host report.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 11:22 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>;
                  Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                  OC-Report-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Lionel,<br>
            <br>
            Why would the reduction for the realm be less than servers.&nbsp;
            It is perfectly valid for a realm overload report to ask for
            a reduction when there are no servers in overload.&nbsp; This
            could happen in the case I mentioned where the realm
            overload report is triggered by layer 3 congestion.<br>
            <br>
            Clearly realm overload will be significantly influenced by
            server overload, but that isn't the only consideration.<br>
            <br>
            My logic was not quite correct, but for a different reason.&nbsp;
            There is no reason to do the host throttling if the request
            has already been throttled by the realm report.<br>
            It should be as follows:<br>
            <br>
            For all requests:<br>
            &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
            request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
            &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there is
            a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
            &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
            <br>
            One improvement would be to remember the host throttled by
            the realm abatement algorithm and input that into the server
            abatement algorithm.&nbsp; This might look something like the
            following:<br>
            <br>
            <span style="font-family:Times">For all requests:<br>
              &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
              request:<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based throttling logic to that request<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If request is throttled:<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Increment host credit by one for the host indicated
              in the destination-host AVP<br>
              &nbsp; If the request has not already been throttled and there
              is a host overload report that applies to the request:<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If host credits exist for the host indicated in the
              destination-host AVP:<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Decrement host credit by one<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else:<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
            </span><br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 10:59 AM, <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
                Steve,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
                your example, if an agent has a better knowledge than
                the server, the Host type OLR should not be sent
                unmodified in forwarded answers, or even removed as
                irrelevant.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And
                in a normal case, the reduction for the realm will be
                likely lower than the reduction needed for a node. S1 is
                not overload, S2 is 50% overload, the realm (S1+S2) is
                overloaded 25%. So only the reduction for the Host
                should apply, why the host-type should prevail over
                realm-type OLR.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">By
                the way, in your proposed logic, it is not clear if the
                relation between the first and the second conditions is
                an "IF NOT".
              </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                    Steve Donovan [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                    <br>
                    <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:39<br>
                    <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Jouni Korhonen;
                    Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                    <b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                    OC-Report-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think we
              have agreement that a realm report applies to all traffic
              targeted for that realm, independent of the presence or
              absence of the destination-host avp.&nbsp; Is that correct?<br>
              <br>
              I don't agree with Lionel's proposal.&nbsp; The realm overload
              report should take precedence over the host overload
              report.<br>
              <br>
              My reasoning is as follows:<br>
              <br>
              - There is something responsible for tracking the health
              of the realm.&nbsp; Call it the "realm overload authority".&nbsp;
              The health of the realm can be based on a number of
              factors including the health of individual servers,
              individual agents and the network connecting Diameter
              entities.<br>
              <br>
              - When this "realm overload authority" determines that the
              IP network is congested, for instance, it would instruct
              agents or servers to send realm overload reports with the
              expectation that the overall traffic sent to the realm as
              a whole will be reduced.<br>
              <br>
              In this scenario, the fact that the realm is overloaded
              takes precedence over the health of the servers.&nbsp; As such,
              it is likely that requests targeted for a healthy server
              will be throttled.<br>
              <br>
              I propose the logic should be as follows:<br>
              <br>
              For all requests:<br>
              &nbsp; If there is a realm overload report that applies to the
              request:<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply realm based trottling logic to that request<br>
              &nbsp; If there is a host overload report that applies to the
              request:<br>
              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Apply host based throttling logic to that request<br>
              <br>
              Note that this also requires the ability to put realm
              overload reports in any answer message, not just answers
              to requests that did not contain a destination-host AVP.<br>
              <br>
              Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 5:30 AM, <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                  lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>No it was not my intention and it is why it was written "except" :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>The abatement for the Realm applies when NO explicit reduction is requested for a specific node of this realm. In such a case i.e. when an OLR is received for a specific node inside a realm for which a reduction also applies, *ONLY* the reduction requested for the node applied.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Is it clearer?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Lioenl <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>De&nbsp;: Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: dimanche 9 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&Agrave;&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Cc&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 3:12 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Cc: ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <pre>I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>What is wrong with letting the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>-not throttle host-type requests to S1,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                </blockquote>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Isn't this what Lionel said below?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Ok, maybe I misread the "realm abatement is applied in any case<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host"?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>If this means the realm abatement is still applied after applying<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>the host abatement, then I agree it is not the same you said.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>I am OK with Lionel's<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>"wording" here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>To: Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Lioenl<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>De : DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:56<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&Agrave; : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.&nbsp; This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.&nbsp; If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.&nbsp; Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Cc : <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Text in clause 4.6&nbsp; does not fully explain to which requests overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>treatment of a given report type applies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; A realm report.&nbsp; The overload treatment should apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requests for which all of the following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                </blockquote>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:


Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:


Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:



Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:



On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:



On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:


#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.




_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap: bre=
ak-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Just post it here.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to m=
e in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Steve,

Ulrich proposal was the following:


   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests

      for which all of the following conditions are true:

      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value

         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the

         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message

         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

Since the text is for Host Report, and as it is introduced, I think origina=
l text is better.
Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:41
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Agreed, there is nothing contentious here.  I agree that the report applies=
 only to the application ID included in the message carrying the overload r=
eport.

Ulrich's wording isn't clear on which messages are being referenced.  Or I =
wasn't looking at full context.  It might be better to try to change the pr=
oposed wording from:
How about changing Ulrich's proposal from:



      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
to the following:

"The value of the application-ID in the Diameter Header of new request mess=
ages matches the value of the Application-ID is an active overload report."

Steve
On 2/11/14 4:50 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

I think that there is no contentious issue here :)

I think that Ulrich is right saying that the reacting node needs to take in=
to account the application-id to perform the abatement. Not when receiving =
the OLR... but when sending a new request.



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:43

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Exact, I agree.

Cheers

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 10:37

To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



Steve,



I do not agree.



e.g.

1. reacting node sends Request with application ID =3D x to reporting node =
2. reporting node sends back answer (containing an OLR) with application ID=
 =3D x 3. reacting node now may very well send  a new request with applicat=
ion ID =3D y to the reporting node without breaking any Diameter rules.

The new request sent in step 3 is NOT subject to throttling according to th=
e OLR received in step 2.

I hope this is not contentious.

In order to provide a complete list of conditions to say when an OLR of a g=
iven type applies to a new request, we should not let c) go by the board.



Ulrich











-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:44 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP





      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the

         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter

         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers to

the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.

<Ulrich>yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not harm

to keep c)</Ulrich>

SRD> I don't see the reason for including this statement.  By

definition, an overload report

applies to the application ID in the answer message.  There is no way for t=
he application-id in the answer message to be different than the applicatio=
n-id in the request message without breaking Diameter.



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich proposal was the f=
ollowing:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; A host report.&nbsp; The overlo=
ad treatment should apply to requests<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; for which all of the =
following conditions are true:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a) The Destination-Ho=
st AVP is present in the request and its value<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mat=
ches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tha=
t contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) The value of the D=
estination-Realm AVP in the request matches the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; val=
ue of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tha=
t contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the A=
pplication-ID in the Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; req=
uest matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hea=
der of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Since the tex=
t is for Host Report, and as it is introduced, I think original text is bet=
ter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:41<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed, there is nothing contentious here.&nbsp; I a=
gree that the report applies only to the application ID included in the mes=
sage carrying the overload report.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
Ulrich's wording isn't clear on which messages are being referenced.&nbsp; =
Or I wasn't looking at full context.&nbsp; It might be better to try to cha=
nge the proposed wording from:<br>
How about changing Ulrich's proposal from:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">to the following:<br>
<br>
&quot;The value of the application-ID in the Diameter Header of new request=
 messages matches the value of the Application-ID is an active overload rep=
ort.&quot;<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/11/14 4:50 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I think that there is no contentious issue here :)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I think that Ulrich is right saying that the reacting node needs to ta=
ke into account the application-id to perform the abatement. Not when recei=
ving the OLR... but when sending a new request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:43<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Exact, I agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cheers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 10:37<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org<=
/a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>e.g. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1. reacting node sends Request with application ID =3D x to reporting =
node 2. reporting node sends back answer (containing an OLR) with applicati=
on ID =3D x 3. reacting node now may very well send&nbsp; a new request wit=
h application ID =3D y to the reporting node without breaking any Diameter =
rules. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The new request sent in step 3 is NOT subject to throttling according =
to the OLR received in step 2.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I hope this is not contentious.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In order to provide a complete list of conditions to say when an OLR o=
f a given type applies to a new request, we should not let c) go by the boa=
rd.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:44 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c) The value of the Application-ID in t=
he Diameter Header of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request matches the v=
alue of the Application-ID of the Diameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Header of the receive=
d message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>No need for this since we agreed that DOIC implicitly always refers to=
 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the application on which the DOIC AVPs are carried in.<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;yes, we agreed on that, so c) is correct and it does not=
 harm <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to keep c)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>SRD&gt; I don't see the reason for including this statement.&nbsp; By<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>definition, an overload report<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>applies to the application ID in the answer message.&nbsp; There is no=
 way for the application-id in the answer message to be different than the =
application-id in the request message without breaking Diameter.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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On Feb 11, 2014, at 4:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> On 1), the reacting node will know that the server is DOIC-enabled =
when receiving the Supported-Features AVP, whatever the content of this =
AVP. When no OLR is sent, I think that there is nothing preventing a =
reporting node to announce all
>=20

I'm confused. I thought the thread was saying that sending the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer would be optional. Did I =
misunderstand?=20

> On 2), honestly, I don't see the need for trying to keep a single AVP =
for all the possible abatements, especially if we are saying that the =
overload control is defined per application.
> I think that there is value to try to reuse the same algo across =
application but not so try to reuse the same AVP across algos.
>=20
> I do not foresee 1000 different algos defined for Diameter systems. =
And if it is, defining one OC-OLR AVP per algo is not an issue. We are =
not running out of AVP codes. The AVP code itself is sufficient to =
indicate the algo to use i.e. "this is an overload report for algo x". =
And each application will explain anyhow how to use this overload =
report.

If we don't do this in a consistent way across applications, then =
application-independent relays will not be able to participate.

>=20
> The main conclusions would be to be able to:
> - Get rid of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer containing an =
OC-OLR AVP.

Disagree for the reasons stated. I want a a consistent, single AVP that =
I can use to tell if the server supports DOIC. The code I envision =
wouldn't bother looking for OC-OLR if OC-Supported-Features was absent. =
It costs nothing to put it in, and it makes life much easier on the =
recipient.

> - get rid of the sequence number in the OC-Supported-Feature AVP in =
all the requests and in the answer when the OC-Supported-features AVP is =
including for capabilities discovery.

Have we also agreed to require OC-Supported-Feature in every request?

>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Ben Campbell
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 01:14
> =C0 : Steve Donovan
> Cc : dime@ietf.org list
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
>=20
> I don't quite agree with where I think this thread is going, on two =
points:
>=20
> 1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially) =
reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload. I =
don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge, but I =
suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers in some =
way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I might have =
a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a higher (or no) =
limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can thus speak for =
themselves.)
>=20
> 2) It's clumsy to have to look at an external (to OC-OLR) AVP to find =
out the algorithm. I think the actual algorithm for a particular report =
should be indicated in OC-OLR, not OC-Supported-Features at the root of =
the message.
>=20
>=20
> Now, separate from those points, I think we should consider whether =
it's okay for a reporting nodes to switch algorithms mid-stream, vs pick =
an algorithm and stick with it. Right now, I think we effectively allow =
a reporting node to send an OLR for one algorithm in one answer, then =
another algorithm in the next, even for the same reacting node. If so, =
we need to define what it means when that happens.
>=20
> For example, if I receive an OLR with the "loss" algorithm, and =
another with the "rate" algorithm from the same server, does the second =
replace the first? Do I now have two overload state entries that I need =
to "stack"?
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Ben.
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> I'll attempt to summarize where we are on this.  If this is agreed to =
then the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.  Some of this =
is already in the draft, some of it will require changes.
>>=20
>> - The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to =
include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change =
required here.
>>=20
>> - A reporting node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be =
sent to a reacting node from the set of abatement algorithms included in =
the OC-Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.
>>=20
>> - If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no =
OC-Supported-Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the =
reacting node must be loss.
>>=20
>> - The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with =
the loss algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>>=20
>> - If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm =
other then loss, the reacting node must include the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP with a single algorithm indicated in the =
OC-Feature-Vector AVP.=20
>>=20
>> - New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing =
OC-OLR AVP.  The new algorithms may also create a new overload report =
AVP if that makes the most sense.
>>=20
>> - The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement =
algorithm.  Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the =
mandatory to implement algorithm.
>>=20
>> Steve=20
>>=20
>> On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Jouni Korhonen [
>>> mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com
>>> ]=20
>>> Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24
>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc :=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM,=20
>>> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Hi Jouni,
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>>>>>=20
>>>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>>>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>>>> abatement algorithm..=20
>>>>=20
>>>> [LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). =
There is no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with =
the OLR sent in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info =
that you could have is "use either one or the other".
>>>>=20
>>> This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting =
node
>>> announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for =
the
>>> sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.
>>>=20
>>> [LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the =
OC-Feature-Vector MAY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to =
use, algo part of the common algos between the reporting node and the =
reacting node.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to =
support more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR =
with another algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use =
with the given OLR.
>>>>=20
>>> I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in =
OLRs..
>>>=20
>>> [LM] I was not proposing such idea :)
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP =
along with the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>>=20
>>>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>>>=20
>>>> [LM] Right. No issue here.
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Jouni Korhonen [
>>>> mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com
>>>> ]=20
>>>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM,=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way =
to solve it is not the correct one.
>>>>>=20
>>>> Agree.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report =
with several algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along =
with the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>>>>>=20
>>>> The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of =
flags, it is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only =
one given algo when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will =
advertize 1 AND 2 for 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector =
cannot be used to indicate the abatement to perform.
>>>>>=20
>>>> My intention was always allow:
>>>>=20
>>>> client announces  ABC
>>>> server supports    BCD
>>>> server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
>>>> alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize =
supported algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is =
THE report AVP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated =
report AVP must be created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, =
the OC-OLR is self-explicit.
>>>>>=20
>>>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>>>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>>>> abatement algorithm..=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP =
along with the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>>=20
>>>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>>>=20
>>>> - Jouni
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> Lionel=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>>>> ]=20
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
>>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>>> Cc :=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>>>=20
>>>>> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>>>=20
>>>>> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation =
mechanism in
>>>>> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an =
OC-Supported-Features AVP
>>>>> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the =
reacting
>>>>> DOIC endpoint.
>>>>> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting =
node can do
>>>>> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to =
allow
>>>>> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
>>>>> messages.
>>>>> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
>>>>> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but =
no other
>>>>> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs =
from
>>>>> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly =
indicates
>>>>> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not =
receiving
>>>>> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two =
reasons:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> a) There is no overload
>>>>> b) DOIC is not supported
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between =
these
>>>>> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both =
cases.
>>>>> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>>>>>  If there is no single matching
>>>>>  capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>>>>>  DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>>>>>  messages with this specific reacting node.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This however is inconsistent.
>>>>> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would =
never
>>>>> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
>>>>> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a =
different
>>>>> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent =
that
>>>>> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take =
the role
>>>>> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this =
role since
>>>>> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
>>>>> Supported-Features AVPs.
>>>>> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  =
draft-ietf-
>>>>> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
>>>>> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or =
even
>>>>> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>>>> Reporter: =20
>>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>>  |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>>>>>   Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
>>>>> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
>>>>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
>>>>> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
>>>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ticket URL:=20
>>>>> <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> dime=20
>>>>> <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
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>>>>>=20
>>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
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>>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
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>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>=20
>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
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>>>> Thank you.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>=20
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>=20
>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>> Thank you.
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>>=20
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20


From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Tue Feb 11 06:19:47 2014
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To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Lionel,

About first case:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host=20

I do not agree on this, since if Destination Host is used, there is no reas=
on to throttle messages if this Host has not provided any OLR.
This is in line with the example used from the beginning:
---------
..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% ov=
erloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do =
a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overload=
ed S1?
What is wrong with letting the client
-not throttle host-type requests to S1,
-throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
-throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
------------

And I think this is what JJ commented:
[JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; =
coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node =
has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduct=
ion, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.

In my opinion, reducing traffic to S1 is wrong.

Regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi maria-cruz,

JJ agreed on the following approach:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somew=
here, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is =
not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1=
. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic wit=
h destination Host S1.
  =20
- If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic red=
uction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No=
 reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
[JJ] OK
=20
- If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and=
 for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messa=
ges with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will ap=
ply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm A=
VP).
[JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails

In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm red=
uction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the react=
ing has received info about both type of overload.

What is the issue with this approach?

Regards,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:49 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hello,
I agree with JJ:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somew=
here, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is =
not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1=
. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic wit=
h destination Host S1.

[MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is an=
y applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will b=
e applicable from next request on.
Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether w=
e have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity & applicabi=
lity.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi Lionel=20

Please see in line

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] Envoy=E9=
=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 14:25 =C0=A0: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQ=
UES); dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report=
-Type AVP

I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.

I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Re=
duction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm a=
nd with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somew=
here, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is =
not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1=
. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic wit=
h destination Host S1.
  =20
- If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic red=
uction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No=
 reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
[JJ] OK
=20
- If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and=
 for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messa=
ges with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will ap=
ply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm A=
VP).
[JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails

In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm red=
uction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the react=
ing has received info about both type of overload.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56 =C0=A0: dime@=
ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear  all

I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is know=
n
- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not=
 known (only the Destination realm).

I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g abou=
t the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm is=
 overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (so =
no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel com=
ment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 ac=
cording to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.

JJacques

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear all,

I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he pro=
vided.
----
As a summary:
Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent =
and host type OLRs from the servers.
The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sen=
ding/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be rel=
evant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type request=
s.
-----

It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and th=
en it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not =
apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client=
 will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has be=
en received by Client.
The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plu=
s Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the so=
lution.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
To: ext Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely =
extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at =
all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why sh=
ould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the no=
t at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to
> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?

Isn't this what Lionel said below?
<Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
 I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing =
principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destina=
tion-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there i=
s an explicit report for the destination-host.
> =20
> Lioenl
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re=
:
> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests tar=
geted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that i=
t would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>=20
> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the i=
nteraction between realm reports and host reports.
>=20
> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host sec=
ond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm=
 overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction =
needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive rea=
lm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohib=
ited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole rea=
lm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the re=
acting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for t=
he realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... e=
xcept if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this =
destination-host.
> =20
> Does it make sense?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload=20
> treatment of a given report type applies.
>  Proposal:
> =20
>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its valu=
e
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messag=
e
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> =20
>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
> =20
> =20
> ______________________________________________________________________
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 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
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ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used=
 or copied without authorisation.
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Thank you.


From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Tue Feb 11 05:59:58 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:59:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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On 2/11/14 8:19 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Lionel,
>
> About first case:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host 
>
> I do not agree on this, since if Destination Host is used, there is no reason to throttle messages if this Host has not provided any OLR.
SRD> There is if the reacting node has received an overload report
requesting a traffic reduction on the realm.  The server/host does not
have visibility of the entire realm. 
> This is in line with the example used from the beginning:
> ---------
> ..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> ------------
>
> And I think this is what JJ commented:
> [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>
> In my opinion, reducing traffic to S1 is wrong.
SRD> It isn't reducing traffic to S1.  It is reducing traffic to the realm.
>
> Regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] 
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:57
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi maria-cruz,
>
> JJ agreed on the following approach:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>    
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic reduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
>  
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm reduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the reacting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> What is the issue with this approach?
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoyé : mardi 11 février 2014 11:49 À : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hello,
> I agree with JJ:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>
> [MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is any applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will be applicable from next request on.
> Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether we have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity & applicability.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi Lionel 
>
> Please see in line
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] Envoyé : lundi 10 février 2014 14:25 À : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.
>
> I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>    
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic reduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
>  
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm reduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the reacting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoyé : lundi 10 février 2014 13:56 À : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear  all
>
> I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is known
> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not known (only the Destination realm).
>
> I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g about the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm is overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (so no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel comment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 according to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.
>
> JJacques
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoyé : vendredi 7 février 2014 17:15 À : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he provided.
> ----
> As a summary:
> Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent and host type OLRs from the servers.
> The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sending/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type requests.
> -----
>
> It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and then it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has been received by Client.
> The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plus Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the solution.
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
> To: ext Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>> What is wrong with letting the client
>> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to
>> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>  I am OK with Lionel's
> "wording" here.
>
> - Jouni
>
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext 
>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>  
>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>>  
>> Lioenl
>>  
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan 
>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:56 À : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re:
>> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>  
>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>>
>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>
>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.
>>  
>> Does it make sense?
>>  
>> Lionel
>>  
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:55
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>  
>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>  
>>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload 
>> treatment of a given report type applies.
>>  Proposal:
>>  
>>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>  
>>  
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Please be careful when sending an email on IETF mailing list.
The message body size cannot exceed 150 ko and when using htlm format, this=
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As a consequence, the message is blocked, waiting for moderator approval. S=
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Tips:
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Regards,

Lionel

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From srdonovan@usdonovans.com  Tue Feb 11 07:17:31 2014
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: [Dime] Requirement for handling realm overload
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080300040607020103070904
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The following is the requirement stating the need to support realm overload.

 REQ 31: There are multiple situations where a Diameter node may be
           overloaded for some purposes but not others.  For example,
           this can happen to an agent or server that supports multiple
           applications, or when a server depends on multiple external
           resources, some of which may become overloaded while others
           are fully available.  The solution MUST allow Diameter nodes
           to indicate overload with sufficient granularity to allow
           clients to take action based on the overloaded resources
           without unreasonably forcing available capacity to go unused.
           The solution MUST support specification of overload
           information with granularities of at least "Diameter node",
           "realm", and "Diameter application" and MUST allow
           extensibility for others to be added in the future.

Enscript Output
This requirement does qualify realm to mean "realm routed requests".  
It talks about handling throttling in the face of overload of the realm.

Steve

--------------080300040607020103070904
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">The following is the
      requirement stating the need to support realm overload.<br>
    </font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
    </font>
    <div class="page" title="Page 24">
      <div class="layoutArea">
        <div class="column">
          <pre><span style="font-size: 10.000000pt; font-family: 'Courier'"> REQ 31: There are multiple situations where a Diameter node may be
           overloaded for some purposes but not others.  For example,
           this can happen to an agent or server that supports multiple
           applications, or when a server depends on multiple external
           resources, some of which may become overloaded while others
           are fully available.  The solution MUST allow Diameter nodes
           to indicate overload with sufficient granularity to allow
           clients to take action based on the overloaded resources
           without unreasonably forcing available capacity to go unused.
           The solution MUST support specification of overload
           information with granularities of at least "Diameter node",
           "realm", and "Diameter application" and MUST allow
           extensibility for others to be added in the future.
</span></pre>
        </div>
      </div>
    </div>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">
      <title>Enscript Output</title>
      <br>
      This requirement does qualify realm to mean "realm routed
      requests".&nbsp;&nbsp; It talks about handling throttling in the face of
      overload of the realm.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
    </font>
  </body>
</html>

--------------080300040607020103070904--


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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Hi Maria Cruz,

Actually I've missed this point. Sorry.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 16:08
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On 2/11/14 8:19 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Lionel,
>
> About first case:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host=20
>
> I do not agree on this, since if Destination Host is used, there is no re=
ason to throttle messages if this Host has not provided any OLR.
SRD> There is if the reacting node has received an overload report
requesting a traffic reduction on the realm.  The server/host does not
have visibility of the entire realm.=20
> This is in line with the example used from the beginning:
> ---------
> ..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% =
overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client d=
o a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overlo=
aded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> ------------
>
> And I think this is what JJ commented:
> [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify=
; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting nod=
e has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm redu=
ction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>
> In my opinion, reducing traffic to S1 is wrong.
SRD> It isn't reducing traffic to S1.  It is reducing traffic to the realm.
>
> Regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:57
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi maria-cruz,
>
> JJ agreed on the following approach:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>=20=20=20=20
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic r=
eduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. =
No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
>=20=20
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic a=
nd for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for mes=
sages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will =
apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm=
 AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm r=
eduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the rea=
cting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> What is the issue with this approach?
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:49 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re:=
 [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hello,
> I agree with JJ:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>
> [MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is =
any applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will=
 be applicable from next request on.
> Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether=
 we have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity & applica=
bility.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi Lionel=20
>
> Please see in line
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] Envoy=E9 =
: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 14:25 =C0 : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES);=
 dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type A=
VP
>
> I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.
>
> I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>=20=20=20=20
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic r=
eduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. =
No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
>=20=20
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic a=
nd for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for mes=
sages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will =
apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm=
 AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm r=
eduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the rea=
cting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56 =C0 : dime@ietf=
.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear  all
>
> I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is kn=
own
> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is n=
ot known (only the Destination realm).
>
> I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g ab=
out the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm =
is overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (s=
o no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel c=
omment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 =
according to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.
>
> JJacques
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : R=
e: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he p=
rovided.
> ----
> As a summary:
> Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agen=
t and host type OLRs from the servers.
> The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when s=
ending/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be r=
elevant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type reque=
sts.
> -----
>
> It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and =
then it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will no=
t apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Clie=
nt will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has =
been received by Client.
> The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR p=
lus Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the =
solution.
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
> To: ext Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wie=
he@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely=
 extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at=
 all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why s=
hould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the n=
ot at all overloaded S1?
>> What is wrong with letting the client
>> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to
>> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>  I am OK with Lionel's
> "wording" here.
>
> - Jouni
>
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20
>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20=20
>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing=
 principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destin=
ation-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there =
is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>>=20=20
>> Lioenl
>>=20=20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : R=
e:
>> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20=20
>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests ta=
rgeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that =
it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>>
>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the =
interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>
>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host se=
cond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of real=
m overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction=
 needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive re=
alm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohi=
bited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole re=
alm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the r=
eacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for =
the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... =
except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this=
 destination-host.
>>=20=20
>> Does it make sense?
>>=20=20
>> Lionel
>>=20=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20=20
>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20=20
>>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload=
=20
>> treatment of a given report type applies.
>>  Proposal:
>>=20=20
>>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its val=
ue
>>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messa=
ge
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> ___________________________________________________
>>=20=20
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 les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'altera=
tion, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, defor=
me ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and d=
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> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Tue Feb 11 07:29:44 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Steve,

Well, it is clear that we do not agree on this.

On 2/11/14 8:19 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Lionel,
>
> About first case:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm=20
> traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with=20
> Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host
>
> I do not agree on this, since if Destination Host is used, there is no re=
ason to throttle messages if this Host has not provided any OLR.
SRD> There is if the reacting node has received an overload report
requesting a traffic reduction on the realm.  The server/host does not have=
 visibility of the entire realm.=20
> This is in line with the example used from the beginning:
> ---------
> ..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% =
overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client d=
o a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overlo=
aded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to=20
> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> ------------
>
> And I think this is what JJ commented:
> [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify=
; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting nod=
e has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm redu=
ction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>
> In my opinion, reducing traffic to S1 is wrong.
SRD> It isn't reducing traffic to S1.  It is reducing traffic to the realm.
>
> Regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:57
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi maria-cruz,
>
> JJ agreed on the following approach:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>   =20
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic r=
eduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. =
No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
> =20
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic a=
nd for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for mes=
sages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will =
apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm=
 AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm r=
eduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the rea=
cting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> What is the issue with this approach?
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:49 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Ob=
jet=20
> : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hello,
> I agree with JJ:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>
> [MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is =
any applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will=
 be applicable from next request on.
> Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether=
 we have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity & applica=
bility.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN,=20
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi Lionel
>
> Please see in line
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] Envoy=E9=
=20
> : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 14:25 =C0 : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES=20
> (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics=20
> of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.
>
> I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>   =20
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic r=
eduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. =
No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
> =20
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic a=
nd for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for mes=
sages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will =
apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm=
 AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm r=
eduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the rea=
cting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN,=20
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56 =C0 =
:=20
> dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of=20
> OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear  all
>
> I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is=20
> known
> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is n=
ot known (only the Destination realm).
>
> I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g ab=
out the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm =
is overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (s=
o no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel c=
omment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 =
according to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.
>
> JJacques
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15 =C0 : dime@ietf.org=
=20
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he p=
rovided.
> ----
> As a summary:
> Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agen=
t and host type OLRs from the servers.
> The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when s=
ending/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be r=
elevant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type reque=
sts.
> -----
>
> It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and =
then it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will no=
t apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Clie=
nt will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has =
been received by Client.
> The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR p=
lus Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the =
solution.
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich=20
> (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
> To: ext Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wie=
he@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely=
 extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at=
 all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why s=
hould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the n=
ot at all overloaded S1?
>> What is wrong with letting the client -not throttle host-type=20
>> requests to S1, -throttle host type request to
>> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>  I am OK with Lionel's
> "wording" here.
>
> - Jouni
>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20
>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>> =20
>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing=
 principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destin=
ation-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there =
is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>> =20
>> Lioenl
>> =20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : R=
e:
>> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>> =20
>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests ta=
rgeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that =
it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>>
>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the =
interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>
>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host se=
cond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of real=
m overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction=
 needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive re=
alm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohi=
bited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole re=
alm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the r=
eacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for =
the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... =
except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this=
 destination-host.
>> =20
>> Does it make sense?
>> =20
>> Lionel
>> =20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>> =20
>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>> =20
>>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests=20
>> overload treatment of a given report type applies.
>>  Proposal:
>> =20
>>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its val=
ue
>>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messa=
ge
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diamete=
r
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diamete=
r
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>> =20
>> =20
>> _____________________________________________________________________
>> _ ___________________________________________________
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 les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'altera=
tion, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, defor=
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>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and d=
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> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
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Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline =
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>
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> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de=
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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So now I understand Ulrich, Maria Cruz and JJ comments.

"My" proposal would force the servers in the realm to always send an OLR ju=
st to say "I'm not overloaded" i.e. with the value 0. That is anyway a poss=
ibility.
But if we want to avoid that, Realm type must only apply to message without=
 destination host.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 16:25
=C0=A0: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi Maria Cruz,

Actually I've missed this point. Sorry.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 16:08
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On 2/11/14 8:19 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Lionel,
>
> About first case:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host=20
>
> I do not agree on this, since if Destination Host is used, there is no re=
ason to throttle messages if this Host has not provided any OLR.
SRD> There is if the reacting node has received an overload report
requesting a traffic reduction on the realm.  The server/host does not
have visibility of the entire realm.=20
> This is in line with the example used from the beginning:
> ---------
> ..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% =
overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client d=
o a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overlo=
aded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1,
> -throttle host type request to S2 with 50% and
> -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> ------------
>
> And I think this is what JJ commented:
> [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify=
; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting nod=
e has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm redu=
ction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>
> In my opinion, reducing traffic to S1 is wrong.
SRD> It isn't reducing traffic to S1.  It is reducing traffic to the realm.
>
> Regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:57
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi maria-cruz,
>
> JJ agreed on the following approach:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>=20=20=20=20
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic r=
eduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. =
No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
>=20=20
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic a=
nd for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for mes=
sages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will =
apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm=
 AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm r=
eduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the rea=
cting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> What is the issue with this approach?
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:49 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re:=
 [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hello,
> I agree with JJ:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>
> [MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is =
any applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will=
 be applicable from next request on.
> Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether=
 we have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity & applica=
bility.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi Lionel=20
>
> Please see in line
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] Envoy=E9 =
: lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 14:25 =C0 : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES);=
 dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type A=
VP
>
> I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.
>
> I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>=20=20=20=20
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic r=
eduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. =
No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
>=20=20
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic a=
nd for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for mes=
sages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will =
apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm=
 AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm r=
eduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the rea=
cting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56 =C0 : dime@ietf=
.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear  all
>
> I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is kn=
own
> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is n=
ot known (only the Destination realm).
>
> I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g ab=
out the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm =
is overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (s=
o no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel c=
omment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 =
according to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.
>
> JJacques
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : R=
e: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he p=
rovided.
> ----
> As a summary:
> Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agen=
t and host type OLRs from the servers.
> The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when s=
ending/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be r=
elevant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type reque=
sts.
> -----
>
> It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and =
then it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will no=
t apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Clie=
nt will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has =
been received by Client.
> The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR p=
lus Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the =
solution.
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
> To: ext Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wie=
he@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely=
 extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at=
 all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why s=
hould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the n=
ot at all overloaded S1?
>> What is wrong with letting the client
>> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to
>> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>  I am OK with Lionel's
> "wording" here.
>
> - Jouni
>
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20
>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20=20
>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing=
 principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destin=
ation-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there =
is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>>=20=20
>> Lioenl
>>=20=20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : R=
e:
>> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20=20
>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests ta=
rgeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that =
it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>>
>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the =
interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>
>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host se=
cond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of real=
m overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction=
 needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive re=
alm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohi=
bited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole re=
alm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the r=
eacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for =
the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... =
except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this=
 destination-host.
>>=20=20
>> Does it make sense?
>>=20=20
>> Lionel
>>=20=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20=20
>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20=20
>>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests overload=
=20
>> treatment of a given report type applies.
>>  Proposal:
>>=20=20
>>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its val=
ue
>>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messa=
ge
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>=20=20
>>=20=20
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> ___________________________________________________
>>=20=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,=20
>> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20
>> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que=
 les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'altera=
tion, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, defor=
me ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and d=
elete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have be=
en modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
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toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
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> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
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_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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ormation that may be protected by law;
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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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Thank you.


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Tue Feb 11 07:31:48 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Ben,
please see inline.

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:14 AM
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I don't quite agree with where I think this thread is going, on two points:

1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially) reportin=
g node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload. I don't want =
to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge, but I suspect implem=
entations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers in some way differently =
than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I might have a configured rate =
limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a higher (or no) limit for peers that are=
 known to support DOIC (and can thus speak for themselves.)
<Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement; where does it come from? I would hav=
e thought that there is no need to distinguish between
a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested, and
b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic reduction r=
equested</Ulrich>=20

2) It's clumsy to have to look at an external (to OC-OLR) AVP to find out t=
he algorithm. I think the actual algorithm for a particular report should b=
e indicated in OC-OLR, not OC-Supported-Features at the root of the message=
.
<Ulrich>I agree</Ulrich>


Now, separate from those points, I think we should consider whether it's ok=
ay for a reporting nodes to switch algorithms mid-stream, vs pick an algori=
thm and stick with it. Right now, I think we effectively allow a reporting =
node to send an OLR for one algorithm in one answer, then another algorithm=
 in the next, even for the same reacting node. If so, we need to define wha=
t it means when that happens.

For example, if I receive an OLR with the "loss" algorithm, and another wit=
h the "rate" algorithm from the same server, does the second replace the fi=
rst? Do I now have two overload state entries that I need to "stack"?

Thanks!

Ben.

On Feb 10, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> I'll attempt to summarize where we are on this.  If this is agreed to the=
n the necessary changes would be made to the -01 draft.  Some of this is al=
ready in the draft, some of it will require changes.
>=20
> - The draft already makes it optional for the reporting node to include t=
he OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages - No change required here.
>=20
> - A reporting node must choose the overload abatement algorithm to be sen=
t to a reacting node from the set of abatement algorithms included in the O=
C-Supported-Features AVP received in the request message.
>=20
> - If the reporting node sends an OC-OLR AVP and there is no OC-Supported-=
Features AVP then the abatement algorithm used by the reacting node must be=
 loss.
>=20
> - The reporting node may include the OC-Supported-Features AVP with the l=
oss algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.
>=20
> - If the reporting node wants the reacting node to apply an algorithm oth=
er then loss, the reacting node must include the OC-Supported-Features AVP =
with a single algorithm indicated in the OC-Feature-Vector AVP.=20
>=20
> - New abatement algorithm extensions may use and extend the existing OC-O=
LR AVP.  The new algorithms may also create a new overload report AVP if th=
at makes the most sense.
>=20
> - The loss algorithm is and always will be the mandatory to implement alg=
orithm.  Or it will be until a new RFC is published that changes the mandat=
ory to implement algorithm.
>=20
> Steve=20
>=20
> On 2/10/14 5:36 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jouni Korhonen [
>> mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com
>> ]=20
>> Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 12:24
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc :=20
>> dime@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messa=
ges
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 1:15 PM,=20
>> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Hi Jouni,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize support=
ed algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report A=
VP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be =
created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-expl=
icit.
>>>>=20
>>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>>> abatement algorithm..=20
>>>=20
>>> [LM] The issue if when you have more than one algo (let say 2). There i=
s no way for the reporting node to indicate the algo to use with the OLR se=
nt in the answer using the OC-Feature-Vector. The only info that you could =
have is "use either one or the other".
>>>=20
>> This we can fix (and I personally would like to fix). The reporting node
>> announces in its OC-Feature-Vector the selected common algorithm for the
>> sent OLR. We had this at some point of time, btw.
>>=20
>> [LM] Acceptable! So in answer including the OLR, the OC-Feature-Vector M=
AY be used (when present) to indicate the algo to use, algo part of the com=
mon algos between the reporting node and the reacting node.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> The simpliest way would be to define a new AVP when you want to support=
 more than the default algo. If you want to rely on the same OLR with anoth=
er algo, you should have a way to indicate the algo to use with the given O=
LR.
>>>=20
>> I recall there was a strong arguments against algorithm types in OLRs..
>>=20
>> [LM] I was not proposing such idea :)
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along w=
ith the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>=20
>>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>>=20
>>> [LM] Right. No issue here.
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Jouni Korhonen [
>>> mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com
>>> ]=20
>>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 11:04
>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc :=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer mess=
ages
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:01 PM,=20
>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> I think that there is actually an issue here but the proposed way to s=
olve it is not the correct one.
>>>>=20
>>> Agree.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> The initial idea was to be able to use the same overload report with s=
everal algorithms. So the OLR was somehow only meaningful along with the OC=
-Feature-Vector AVP.
>>>>=20
>>> The initial idea was to go on lines of RFC5447.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> But because the OC-Feature-Vector AVP is defined as a set of flags, it=
 is not possible to say that this OLR is to be used with only one given alg=
o when more than one is defined (as the bit flags will advertize 1 AND 2 fo=
r 2 supported algos). So the OC-Feature-Vector cannot be used to indicate t=
he abatement to perform.
>>>>=20
>>> My intention was always allow:
>>>=20
>>>  client announces  ABC
>>>  server supports    BCD
>>>  server announced only  e.g. C since it is common
>>>  alternatively server announced nothing and then the default applies
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> As the syntax of the OC-Feature-Vector is adapted to advertize support=
ed algos, it could be easier to clarify that the OC-OLR AVP is THE report A=
VP for the reduction algo (default) and a new dedicated report AVP must be =
created when a new algo is introduced. In this way, the OC-OLR is self-expl=
icit.
>>>>=20
>>> Bah. OLR should work for additional abatement algorithms
>>> IF we agree that the OLR is align with the announced
>>> abatement algorithm..=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It would be purely optional to send the Supported-Features AVP along w=
ith the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>=20
>>> It is already today if you only support the default, right.
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Lionel=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>>> ]=20
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:48
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>>=20
>>>> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>>>=20
>>>> According to the current feature advertisement/negotiation mechanism i=
n
>>>> the -01 draft reporting DOIC endpoint insert an OC-Supported-Features =
AVP
>>>> in answer messages to indicate their supported OC features to the reac=
ting
>>>> DOIC endpoint.
>>>> The author of this document believes that  the best a reacting node ca=
n do
>>>> with such information is to ignore it, and therefore proposes to allow
>>>> reporting nodes not to insert OC-Supported-Features AVPs in answer
>>>> messages.
>>>> Currently only one feature is defined (OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO).
>>>> A reacting DOIC endpoint that supports only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO but no ot=
her
>>>> feature is only interested in receiving/not receiving OC-OLR AVPs from
>>>> reporting DOIC-endpoints. Receiving an OC-OLR AVP implicitly indicates
>>>> support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO  by the reporting DOIC endpoint; not recei=
ving
>>>> an OC-OLR-AVP from the reporting DOIC endpoint may have two reasons:
>>>>=20
>>>> a) There is no overload
>>>> b) DOIC is not supported
>>>>=20
>>>> The reacting DOIC endpoint does not need to differentiate between thes=
e
>>>> two cases as the behavior (do not throttle) is the same in both cases.
>>>> The -01 draft says in  clause 4.1:
>>>>   If there is no single matching
>>>>   capability the reacting node MUST act as if it does not implement
>>>>   DOIC and cease inserting any DOIC related AVPs into any Diameter
>>>>   messages with this specific reacting node.
>>>>=20
>>>> This however is inconsistent.
>>>> The reacting node that ceases sending DOIC related AVPs would never
>>>> recognize when the server is upgraded to support DOIC.
>>>> Subsequent requests (not including DOIC related AVPs) may take a diffe=
rent
>>>> path towards the server and on that path there may be an agent that
>>>> supports DOIC (with a match of supported features) and could take the =
role
>>>> of the reporting DOIC endpoint; but the agent cannot take this role si=
nce
>>>> the reacting node (although supporting DOIC) ceased sending of OC-
>>>> Supported-Features AVPs.
>>>> In summary: As long as no extension feature is defined within  draft-i=
etf-
>>>> dime-ovli  (i.e. never, since extensions will  be defined in other
>>>> drafts), there is no need for draft-ietf-dime-ovli  to mandate or even
>>>> describe inclusion of OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages.
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>>> Reporter: =20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>   |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
>>>>    Type:  defect                    |     Status:  new
>>>> Priority:  major                     |  Milestone:
>>>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |    Version:
>>>> Severity:  Active WG Document        |   Keywords:
>>>> --------------------------------------+--------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> Ticket URL:=20
>>>> <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/30>
>>>>=20
>>>> dime=20
>>>> <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
>>>>=20
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fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>=20
>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;
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>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
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>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________
>>>=20
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations conf=
identielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message=
s electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme=
 ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>=20
>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged=
 information that may be protected by law;
>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have b=
een modified, changed or falsified.
>>> Thank you.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> ________________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confi=
dentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez r=
ecu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages=
 electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme =
ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and d=
elete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have be=
en modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>>=20
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From lionel.morand@orange.com  Tue Feb 11 07:35:29 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 15:35:18 +0000
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References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F24ACE.6080501@usdonovans.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F25A38.2030408@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B22FB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D64E69@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <29031_1391678397_52F353BD_29031_478_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48CA45@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B233F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D65226@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B24BA@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772389@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68B44@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097726C5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68C65@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772718@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52F8FC53.4070508@usdonovans.com> <8685_1392050573_52F9018D_8685_14082_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497B0A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6978A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772E88@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D697CA@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772EB3@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <4993_1392114947_52F9FD03_4993_223_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E499B60@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920977300C@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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--_000_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A34EPEXCVZYM13corpora_--


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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> 1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially) =
reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload. I =
don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge, but I =
suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers in some =
way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I might have =
a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a higher (or no) =
limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can thus speak for =
themselves.)
> <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement; where does it come from? I =
would have thought that there is no need to distinguish between
> a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested, =
and
> b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic =
reduction requested</Ulrich>=20
>=20

At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should =
be able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the =
mechanism. But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism =
must work in a mixed environment, where some nodes support it and some =
don't. It's much _easier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what =
nodes support it and what don't.=20

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, =
but hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such =
assumption about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know =
the difference between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting =
server, it must assume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up =
simply knowing that some servers _are_ overloaded, and some other =
servers _might_be_ overloaded.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
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Fine with me. That just needs to be just stated more clearly.
Now there are too many SHOULDs and stuff.

- JOuni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 2:32 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> I agree that OC-OLR AVPs are allowed only in answer messages.
>=20
> But I do not agree with=20
>>> if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
>>> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
>>> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
>=20
> "other DOIC AVPs" would be AVPs defined for future extensions. A =
reporting node that does not support any future extension would simply =
ignore "other DOIC AVPs" and would interprete the absence of =
OC-Supported-Features as "DOIC not supported by any downstream node".
>=20
> Things are not symmetric.
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Jouni =
Korhonen
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:45 AM
> To: Steve Donovan
> Cc: ben@nostrum.com; dime@ietf.org; =
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism =
needs to be rethought
>=20
>=20
> Your assumption is correct. "Other DOIC AVPs" is a future thing.
> Currently we have no other DOIC AVPs for requests. It is just I
> asking the same semantics for the OC-Supported-Features for both
> directions.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> It has been my assumption that the OC-OLR AVP would only be allowed =
in answer messages.  Is this the consensus?
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/10/14 4:27 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>>> Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
>>> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is
>>> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
>>> We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan=20
>>> <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the =
OC-Supported-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means =
that the AVP must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting =
node.
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>>>>> Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a =
capabilities
>>>>> announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that =
lifetime to
>>>>> Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different =
capability
>>>>> sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for =
non-session
>>>>> applications or pseudo-sessions.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are =
stateless,
>>>>> that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a =
response must
>>>>> match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
>>>>> Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set =
associated
>>>>> with a capabilities set.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting =
agents. If
>>>>> we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and capabilites
>>>>> negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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I agree with Ben here.
The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for th=
e reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the re=
acting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when th=
is server does not support DOIC.

In fact, we have already included this as a requirement  in our 3GPP TR:

6.3.3	Implicit Overload Indication
6.3.3.1	Introduction
IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of impl=
icit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse net=
works.
However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined=
 in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommende=
d that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen=
 even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism u=
nder definition, but client handling of such indications is even more impor=
tant when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
At least the following indications may be considered:
-	DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the rec=
eipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Di=
ameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications t=
o define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking int=
o account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME =
may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER=
_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
-	Lack of response:
In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any =
Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in th=
e client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each applicati=
on, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For e=
xample, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of m=
essages have not been answered.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

> 1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially)=20
> reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.=20
> I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge,=20
> but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers=20
> in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I=20
> might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a=20
> higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can=20
> thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement;=20
> where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to=20
> distinguish between
> a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested,=20
> and
> b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic=20
> reduction requested</Ulrich>
>=20

At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be=
 able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. =
But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mi=
xed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _eas=
ier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what=
 don't.=20

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, bu=
t hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumptio=
n about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the differe=
nce between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must as=
sume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that so=
me servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.

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From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Tue Feb 11 13:14:37 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to	be rethought
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 21:14:27 +0000
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References: <057.08dd5ea0343928355a0b92f85a22d2ac@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F90653.6040104@usdonovans.com> <4208F877-455F-4A28-BB15-FA3C5B3A8795@gmail.com> <52F9605C.7000504@usdonovans.com> <37D3D981-FBA0-4DF9-B381-34ED048F8BFD@gmail.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2BB2@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <D17443EE-94C5-4B82-A843-898009B59510@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to	be rethought
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Hello all,

I would like to come back to the initial comments by Ben on this subject:

>The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
 >Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a capabilities
 >announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime to
 >Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different capability
 >sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for non-session
 >applications or pseudo-sessions.)

[MCruz] I agree we do not need to tie a capability set to a session, but on=
 the other hand, what could be the reason to modify the capability set with=
in a session?
I think this was the original reason why it is considered that the capabili=
ty just needs to be announced once per session. In fact, I think this is a =
valid solution.

> I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are stateless,
 >that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a response mus=
t
 >match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
 >Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set associated
 >with a capabilities set.

[MCruz] We could allow to define the capability set just once per session (=
obviously for session-based applications, for non-session based keeps being=
 in each message).
We can define that within a session it is not allowed to modify the capabil=
ity set.


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jouni Korhonen
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 18:56
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs t=
o be rethought


Fine with me. That just needs to be just stated more clearly.
Now there are too many SHOULDs and stuff.

- JOuni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 2:32 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wieh=
e@nsn.com> wrote:

> I agree that OC-OLR AVPs are allowed only in answer messages.
>=20
> But I do not agree with
>>> if there are other DOIC AVPs in the request, then the absence of the=20
>>> OC-Supported-Features is interpreted as support for the default=20
>>> abatement algorithm.
>=20
> "other DOIC AVPs" would be AVPs defined for future extensions. A reportin=
g node that does not support any future extension would simply ignore "othe=
r DOIC AVPs" and would interprete the absence of OC-Supported-Features as "=
DOIC not supported by any downstream node".
>=20
> Things are not symmetric.
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Jouni=20
> Korhonen
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:45 AM
> To: Steve Donovan
> Cc: ben@nostrum.com; dime@ietf.org;=20
> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism=20
> needs to be rethought
>=20
>=20
> Your assumption is correct. "Other DOIC AVPs" is a future thing.
> Currently we have no other DOIC AVPs for requests. It is just I asking=20
> the same semantics for the OC-Supported-Features for both directions.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wro=
te:
>=20
>> It has been my assumption that the OC-OLR AVP would only be allowed in a=
nswer messages.  Is this the consensus?
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/10/14 4:27 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>>> Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
>>> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is=20
>>> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
>>> We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan=20
>>> <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the OC-Suppor=
ted-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means that the AVP =
must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting node.
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>>>>> Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a=20
>>>>> capabilities announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to=20
>>>>> tie that lifetime to Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect=20
>>>>> to have different capability sets for different sessions. (and it=20
>>>>> doesn't help at all for non-session applications or=20
>>>>> pseudo-sessions.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are=20
>>>>> stateless, that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR=20
>>>>> in a response must match the OC-Supported-Features from the correspon=
ding request.
>>>>> Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set=20
>>>>> associated with a capabilities set.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting=20
>>>>> agents. If we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and=20
>>>>> capabilites negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #43: Overstated guidance on	session-ending requests.
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #43: Overstated guidance on	session-ending	requests.
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #39: Definition of Diameter Routing
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 21:44:08 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
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Fine for me as well.
Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 16:18
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed

+1 on adding an agent behavior sub-section to section 5.5 and that it
should capture Ulrich's wording that an agent must be able to differentiate=
 OLRs and the resulting abatement on a per client basis.

Steve

On 2/10/14 5:09 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I also agree with Lionel and Nirav. As Ulrich proposes, I also think good=
 to have a clarification and the hereafter proposed sentence from Ulrich in=
 agent behavior (when acting on behalf of the client) is OK for me:
> "When an agent receives an OLR in response to a request initiated by a cl=
ient not supporting DOIC, this agent, acting on behalf of the client, needs=
 to (or MUST) bind the received OLR to the origin-host in the request of th=
e client".
>
> JJacques
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 17:55 =C0 :=
=20
> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot);=20
> dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types=20
> are proposed
>
> If I'm correct, the following condition:
>
>        d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  req=
uest
>           match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>           AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC=
-
>           OLR AVP.
>
> is not correct as the message containing the OC-OLR AVP is an answer and =
there is Destination-Host or Destination-Realm AVPs in an answer.
>
> If you want to clarify something, it can be in the section describing the=
 agent behavior. And such clarification will be that when an agent received=
 an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC,=
 this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client=
 (no need of the origin-realm).
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 17:43 =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; e=
xt=20
> Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #35:=20
> additional report types are proposed
>
> Even if some feel this is implicit, it should not harm to add the d) cond=
ition explicitly please.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:08 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Nirav Salot (nsalot);=20
> dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Isn't it implicit?
> An answer is sent to the origin-host of the corresponding request. The ag=
ent is not the targeting point of the answer and is not supposed to be the =
reacting node. Now if an agent wants to act on behalf a client not supporti=
ng the DOCI mechanism at the application, this agent will have to maintain =
a binding for this client. This requirement is not bound to the overload co=
ntrol mechanism but to any function provides by the agent on behalf of down=
stream clients.=20
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 10:32 =C0 : ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)=
;=20
> MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #35:=20
> additional report types are proposed
>
> Nirav,
> ... and this natural requirement is missing from the current draft.
>
> To address this requirement we could replace the descriptions for report =
types 0 and 1 with the decriptions of my proposed report types 2 and 3 resp=
ectively.
>
> As a consquence, however, the agent in the given example configuration wo=
uld have to store always OLRs per client even when S wants all clients to d=
o the same throttling. Would that be acceptable?
>
> Ulrich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 10:03 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); lionel.morand@orange.com;=20
> dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Ulrich,
>
> I do not think so.
> If we believe that there should be host-specific OLR and if we want to su=
pport the model when the agent acts as reacting node (on behalf of the clie=
nt(s)), then the agents are naturally required to store OLR per client/host=
 behind the agent (based on the destination-host AVP in the answer message)=
.
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 2:24 PM
> To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Hi Lionel, Nirav,
>
> your argument only holds in configurations where the client is the reacti=
ng node.
>
> In a configuration like this
>
>
> +-------+
> | C1    |          +------+
> |       |----------|  A   |               +------+
> +-------+          |      |               | S    |
>                    |      |---------------|      |
> +-------+          |      |               +------+
> | C2    |----------|      |
> |       |          +------+
> +-------+
> where clients C1 and C2 do not support DOIC and the same agent A takes th=
e role of the reacting node on behalf of both C1 and C2 the situation is di=
fferent. According to the current version of the draft this will result in =
big mess with frequent replacements of OLRs in A when e.g. S requests a 50%=
 reduction from C1 and 0% reduction from C2.=20
>
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot=20
> (nsalot)
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:50 AM
> To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Same view as Lionel below.
> New report types seem more confusing than adding value.
>
> The reporting node knows the host which is going to receive the message (=
and hence report within the message) and hence it can generate "host specif=
ic" report and it insert into the message.
> No need to define new report types for achieving this.
>
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:48 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> I don't see the added-value of these new report types.
> In any case the reporting node will decide which reduction value to send =
to each node and the reacting node will behave accordingly to the value rec=
eived in the OLR. So what is the point to say "this value applies to you on=
ly"?
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue=20
> tracker Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 16:39 =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/O=
LN=20
> Cc : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #35: additional report=20
> types are proposed
>
> #35: additional report types are proposed
>
> Description changed by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com:
>
> Old description:
>
>> With regard to Overload Mitigation Differentiation per Client (#33)=20
>> two additional report types are proposed:
>>
>>    2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its valu=
e
>>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messag=
e
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request=20
>> matches the
>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
>> request
>>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC=
-
>>          OLR AVP.
>>
>>    3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request=20
>> matches the
>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>       d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the=20
>> request
>>          match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>>          AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC=
-
>>          OLR AVP.
> New description:
>
>  The -01 draft does not address the 3GPP requirement to allow reporting  =
DOIC endpoints to request different amount of load reduction from  differen=
t clients (see TR 29.809 clause 6.4.7).
>  Since 3GPP is the main consumer of DOIC it is proposed to address this  =
requirement by adding two new report types.
>  two additional report types are proposed:
>
>     2  A host per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its valu=
e
>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messag=
e
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  req=
uest
>           match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>           AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC=
-
>           OLR AVP.
>
>     3  A realm per client report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches t=
he
>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>        d) The values of the Origin-Host and Origin-Realm AVPs in the  req=
uest
>           match the values of the Destination-Host and Destination-Realm
>           AVPs respectively of the received message that contained the OC=
-
>           OLR AVP.
>
> --
>

_______________________________________________
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To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Dear all

I come back a bit late on this long debate to confirm my position that I sh=
are with  Ulrich MCruz Nirav and I think now Lionel and that I again summar=
ize here in these two statements :=20
- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is know=
n
- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not=
 known (only the Destination realm).

>From History, we have started by defining the Host report so to control the=
 traffic towards each server,(our main goal), but we observed a difficulty =
when the reacting node does not know  the host to which a  request is sent =
and for this  we introduced the realm report. Annex B1 example in the draft=
 is the use case well illustrating  this approach and  which corresponds to=
 the above statements.

Another point which was mentioned, is, for  the reacting node, to keep the =
throttling based on realm report independent of the throttling based on the=
 host report, this is naturally achieved with the two above statements as w=
e distinguish requests having a destination host from those having not. But=
 if we can apply both reports to the same request, then we need additional =
rules eg  which report prevails; in the discussion there were also divergen=
ce on this point, but we can imagine other rules eg the report that has the=
 highest reduction value prevails, why not in some cases, so a trend to ove=
rcomplexify.=20

For me the two above statements avoid overlapping between the two reports  =
and are simple to apply, so I keep my preference for these two statements.

Best regards

JJacques  =20


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 16:31
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

So now I understand Ulrich, Maria Cruz and JJ comments.

"My" proposal would force the servers in the realm to always send an OLR ju=
st to say "I'm not overloaded" i.e. with the value 0. That is anyway a poss=
ibility.
But if we want to avoid that, Realm type must only apply to message without=
 destination host.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 16:25 =C0=A0: Steve Donovan; di=
me@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AV=
P

Hi Maria Cruz,

Actually I've missed this point. Sorry.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan Envo=
y=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 16:08 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: =
[Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On 2/11/14 8:19 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Lionel,
>
> About first case:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm=20
> traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with=20
> Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host
>
> I do not agree on this, since if Destination Host is used, there is no re=
ason to throttle messages if this Host has not provided any OLR.
SRD> There is if the reacting node has received an overload report
requesting a traffic reduction on the realm.  The server/host does not have=
 visibility of the entire realm.=20
> This is in line with the example used from the beginning:
> ---------
> ..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% =
overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client d=
o a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overlo=
aded S1?
> What is wrong with letting the client
> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to=20
> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> ------------
>
> And I think this is what JJ commented:
> [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify=
; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting nod=
e has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm redu=
ction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>
> In my opinion, reducing traffic to S1 is wrong.
SRD> It isn't reducing traffic to S1.  It is reducing traffic to the realm.
>
> Regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:57
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi maria-cruz,
>
> JJ agreed on the following approach:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>   =20
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic r=
eduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. =
No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
> =20
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic a=
nd for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for mes=
sages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will =
apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm=
 AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm r=
eduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the rea=
cting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> What is the issue with this approach?
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:49 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Ob=
jet=20
> : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hello,
> I agree with JJ:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>
> [MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is =
any applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will=
 be applicable from next request on.
> Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether=
 we have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity & applica=
bility.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN,=20
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Hi Lionel
>
> Please see in line
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] Envoy=E9=
=20
> : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 14:25 =C0 : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES=20
> (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics=20
> of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.
>
> I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:
>
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic =
Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm=
 and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding som=
ewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 i=
s not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for =
S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic w=
ith destination Host S1.
>   =20
> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic r=
eduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. =
No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
> [JJ] OK
> =20
> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic a=
nd for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for mes=
sages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will =
apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm=
 AVP).
> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>
> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm r=
eduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the rea=
cting has received info about both type of overload.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN,=20
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56 =C0 =
:=20
> dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of=20
> OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear  all
>
> I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is=20
> known
> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is n=
ot known (only the Destination realm).
>
> I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g ab=
out the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm =
is overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (s=
o no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel c=
omment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 =
according to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.
>
> JJacques
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15 =C0 : dime@ietf.org=
=20
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he p=
rovided.
> ----
> As a summary:
> Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agen=
t and host type OLRs from the servers.
> The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when s=
ending/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be r=
elevant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type reque=
sts.
> -----
>
> It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and =
then it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will no=
t apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Clie=
nt will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has =
been received by Client.
> The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR p=
lus Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the =
solution.
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich=20
> (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
> To: ext Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wie=
he@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely=
 extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at=
 all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why s=
hould a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the n=
ot at all overloaded S1?
>> What is wrong with letting the client -not throttle host-type=20
>> requests to S1, -throttle host type request to
>> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>  I am OK with Lionel's
> "wording" here.
>
> - Jouni
>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20
>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>> =20
>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing=
 principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destin=
ation-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there =
is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>> =20
>> Lioenl
>> =20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : R=
e:
>> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>> =20
>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests ta=
rgeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that =
it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>>
>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the =
interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>
>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host se=
cond.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of real=
m overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction=
 needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive re=
alm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohi=
bited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole re=
alm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the r=
eacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for =
the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... =
except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this=
 destination-host.
>> =20
>> Does it make sense?
>> =20
>> Lionel
>> =20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>> =20
>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>> =20
>>  Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests=20
>> overload treatment of a given report type applies.
>>  Proposal:
>> =20
>>     0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>>        for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its val=
ue
>>           matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received messa=
ge
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diamete=
r
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>     1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>        requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>        a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>        b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches =
the
>>           value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>           that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>        c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>           request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diamete=
r
>>           Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>> =20
>> =20
>> _____________________________________________________________________
>> _ ___________________________________________________
>> =20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20
>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,=20
>> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20
>> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que=
 les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'altera=
tion, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, defor=
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>> =20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and d=
elete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have be=
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>> Thank you.
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou =
copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez=
 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
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ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used=
 or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou =
copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez=
 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
s messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline to=
ute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used=
 or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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It sounds reasonable to me as well.
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR

+1
On 2/10/14 7:47 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real r=
equirements for the sequence-number are:



- Globally/eternally unique

- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by S=
teve)



The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to =
generate sequence numbers with such properties.



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen

Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR





Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:



o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no

  reason to remember anything about it

o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based

  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it

  "globally and eternally unique".



- Jouni







On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



Steve,



sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after =
OLR expiry.

This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state

Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything ab=
out it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any va=
lue.





Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



A couple of things -



The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over tim=
e, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but i=
s not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set t=
he sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and th=
en increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload =
report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as=
 it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global se=
quence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server q=
uery that global sequence number server after each reboot.



We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way t=
o reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an =
active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reaso=
n to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could=
, conceivably have any value.



The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter s=
pecification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and=
 eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation =
is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.



It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP ti=
mestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a simil=
ar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory =
portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the=
 implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."



Steve



On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.

But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:



Assume the sender sends sequence numbers

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....

but the receicer for any reason receives

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....

The receiver would accept

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000

and then silently discards

3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....

with no way to come back to sync.



Are we sure that this cannot happen?



Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausi=
bility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time =
of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem=
. But in the moment I don't see another way.



Ulrich





-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM

To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always=
 increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the=
 sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a=
 good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an i=
nterop requirement.



On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wr=
ote:



Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is =
a case for a "MUST".

We are not violating anything.



Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to k=
now how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format o=
f the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR



I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet t=
he requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementatio=
n. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Sect=
ion 6 of 2119 includes the following:



"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is

  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has

  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "



The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected =
peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectl=
y reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-norma=
tive (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good wa=
y to do this.



On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@o=
range.com> wrote:



I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to =
mandate a specific semantic.



Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a s=
imple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?



Lionel



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR



How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  Ther=
e is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be incl=
uded only as one way of addressing the requirement.



Steve



On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:

I also agree.



Regards,

Nirav.



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.

If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!



In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequ=
ence-number.



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR



#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR



The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:

   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST

   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload

   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP

   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only

   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.

   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two

   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not

   related or correlated.



   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be

   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two

   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the

   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).





With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  o=
f sync (for whatever reason).

It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  ti=
mestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  a=
nd to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  m=
ust be ignored by the reacting node.





___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It sounds reasonable to m=
e as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values wi=
thin OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#43;1<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 7:47 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the r=
eal requirements for the sequence-number are:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Globally/eternally unique<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind=
 by Steve) <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on ho=
w to generate sequence numbers with such properties.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Jouni Korhonen<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>&nbsp; reason to remember anything about it<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based <o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;on the NTP time &#43; any vendor specific data to make it =
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;globally and eternally unique&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync a=
fter OLR expiry.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anythi=
ng about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have a=
ny value. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>A couple of things - <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically ove=
r time, including over a reboot.&nbsp; Use of NTP time is one way of doing =
this but is not the only way.&nbsp; Someone could, for instance, use a time=
 stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after =
a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each subse=
quent overload report sent.&nbsp; This actually has better properties than =
an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.&nbsp; One coul=
d also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and=
 have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each=
 reboot.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>We also have a duration timer on overload reports.&nbsp; This gives us=
 one way to reset.&nbsp; It should only be required to remember the sequenc=
e number of an active overload report.&nbsp; Once the overload report expir=
es there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload r=
eport received could, conceivably have any value. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diame=
ter specification.&nbsp; The wording there is -- &quot;The Session-Id MUST =
be globally and eternally unique&quot;.&nbsp; We just need eternally as the=
 spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying th=
e overload report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of N=
TP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a =
similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a manda=
tory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format fo=
r the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ...&quot;<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Assume the sender sends sequence numbers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>but the receicer for any reason receives <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,...=
. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The receiver would accept<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and then silently discards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....&nbsp; 4, 5, .... <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>with no way to come back to sync.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Are we sure that this cannot happen?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and p=
lausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and =
time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the pr=
oblem. But in the moment I don't see another way.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number a=
lways increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement tha=
t the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is proba=
bly a good way to&nbsp; meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in it=
self, an interop requirement.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of &quot;interop requiremen=
t&quot;, it is a case for a &quot;MUST&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>We are not violating anything.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces=
 to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the for=
mat of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to m=
eet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implemen=
tation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 &quot;MUST&quot; level requirement=
 to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where =
it is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which=
 has<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)&nb=
sp; &quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expe=
cted peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be per=
fectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-=
normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a go=
od way to do this.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use cas=
e to mandate a specific semantic.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it i=
s a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.&=
nbsp; There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.&nbsp; That=
 should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I also agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nirav.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">l=
ionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If it is &quot;like an NTP timestamp&quot;, be proud and say it loud!<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this=
 sequence-number.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Num=
ber AVP MUST<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two =
overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents =
of the AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).&nbsp; The sequence =
number is only<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; required to be unique between two overload control endpoi=
nts.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i=
.e. two<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints =
are not<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; related or correlated.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence n=
umber MUST be<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; greater than any sequence number previously seen between =
two<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparo=
und of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are o=
ut&nbsp; of sync (for whatever reason).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NT=
P&nbsp; timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was c=
reated,&nbsp; and to mandate that&nbsp; OLRs with a time stamp higher than =
time of reception&nbsp; must be ignored by the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920977322FESESSMB101erics_--


From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 14:31:49 2014
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772E9C@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 00:31:41 +0200
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References: <057.8b248d3cb5db23879c2730b80d4657d7@trac.tools.ietf.org> <B08CCDA3-4E2B-444A-AE27-9DE2D9C0B458@gmail.com> <4B803326-40A9-4E98-AC12-7DDF46BD101B@nostrum.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6979E@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772E9C@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting	overload	reports expire
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Fine with me.

- Jouni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Ben, Nirav,
>=20
> I follow same argumentation.
> Regards
> /MCruz
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nirav Salot =
(nsalot)
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:23
> To: Ben Campbell; Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting =
overload reports expire
>=20
> Ben,
>=20
> I resonate with your thinking below.
>=20
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:54 PM
> To: Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting =
overload reports expire
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:16 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> My reasoning for explicit termination was that knowing the=20
>> implementation folks they will let overload conditions expire unless =
advised otherwise.
>> And having unnecessary stuff hanging around waiting for a cleanup is=20=

>> not a good thing in general. But I am open here for other options..
>>=20
>=20
> I think it's reasonable to say that a reporting node should terminate =
an overload condition in a timely manner. But if it's about to expire =
anyway, then expiration might be just as timely as an explicit report.=20=

>=20
> And of course, the definition of "timely" is somewhat a matter of =
policy. For example, I can imagine an deployment that had a large number =
of clients using fairly short validity durations, and _never_ explicitly =
signaling an end to an overload condition. This adds a bit of a =
"slow-start" to the recovery, since different clients will expire the =
overload condition at different times, and the load will ramp up =
gradually. I don't see anything wrong with that. Of course, it wouldn't =
work if one chose long validity durations, or if the signaling of =
overload to different clients happened in close synchronization.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Works for me.

- JOuni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 1:55 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

> So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related =
discussion about handling invalid values):
>=20
> Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:
>=20
> Old:
>=20
> Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 =
hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as =
if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.
>=20
> New:
>=20
> Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid =
validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP =
were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing =
overload condition has ended and that the reporting node is in a stable =
condition.
>=20
> Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:
>=20
> Old:
>=20
>  The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one =
hundred (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The =
value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node =
is under a severe load and ceases to process any new messages. The =
Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be present in an overload report that uses =
the default abatement algorithm.
>=20
> Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the =
Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no =
overload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a =
OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate the end of an =
overload condition. [Section 4.5]
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> Just post it here.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the =
tracker?
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen =
<jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Ben,
>>>>=20
>>>> Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.
>>>>=20
>>>> - Jouni
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen =
<jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we =
want to
>>>>>>> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing =
overload
>>>>>>> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement =
algorithm.
>>>>>>> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an =
overload
>>>>>>> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might =
not make
>>>>>>> sense for all future ones.)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the =
reason.
>>>>>> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method =
ending the
>>>>>> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for =
two reasons:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is =
specific to algorithms that use reduction percentage.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes =
semantically identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This =
allows a simpler implementation.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20


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References: <066.f8b7ffcffcd55b9e56fa2bfc281d4649@trac.tools.ietf.org> <29423_1391537999_52F12F4F_29423_3802_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E47772A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D62A4B@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F24BC0.6070600@usdonovans.com> <29564_1391614624_52F25AA0_29564_1057_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487344@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2ACDC7E8-A46D-4618-92CE-B793AF3A8F75@nostrum.com> <29459_1391615624_52F25E88_29459_734_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4873CD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <29FCFFE7-64BF-4928-A3DF-F2FC0D1EFBC6@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B23D7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52F3AF0D.3050306@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B253C@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <855AE46B-9E69-452E-A8C7-9AA26019A4B4@gmail.com> <14044_1392040069_52F8D885_14044_469_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4975BB@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F8DB0C.3000603@usd onovans.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920977322F@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally
and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP
then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less
mandatory reference..

- Jouni


On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:

> It sounds reasonable to me as well.
> /MCruz
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> +1
> On 2/10/14 7:47 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the =
real requirements for the sequence-number are:
> =20
> - Globally/eternally unique
> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind =
by Steve)=20
> =20
> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on =
how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
> Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33
> =C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> =20
> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
> =20
> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>   reason to remember anything about it
> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
>   on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
>   "globally and eternally unique".
> =20
> - Jouni
> =20
> =20
> =20
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
> =20
> Steve,
> =20
> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync =
after OLR expiry.
> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember =
anything about it and the next overload report received could, =
conceivably have any value.=20
> =20
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve =
Donovan
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> A couple of things -=20
> =20
> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically =
over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing =
this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time =
stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent =
after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for =
each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better =
properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll =
over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is =
not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence =
number server after each reboot.
> =20
> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one =
way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence =
number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires =
there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload =
report received could, conceivably have any value.=20
> =20
> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base =
Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be =
globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial =
differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the =
overload report.
> =20
> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of =
NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded =
in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes =
a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended =
format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
> =20
> Steve
> =20
> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
> =20
> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
> The receiver would accept
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
> and then silently discards
> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
> with no way to come back to sync.
> =20
> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
> =20
> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and =
plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value =
and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve =
the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben =
Campbell
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
> To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number =
always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement =
that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is =
probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in =
itself, an interop requirement.
> =20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> =
<lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
> =20
> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", =
it is a case for a "MUST".
> We are not violating anything.
> =20
> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces =
to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the =
format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to =
meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an =
implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level =
requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
> =20
> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
> =20
> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we =
expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would =
be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then =
add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a =
timestamp is a good way to do this.
> =20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> =20
> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use =
case to mandate a specific semantic.
> =20
> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it =
is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  =
There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should =
be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
> =20
> Steve
> =20
> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
> I also agree.
> =20
> Regards,
> Nirav.
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
> =20
> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
> =20
> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this =
sequence-number.
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>    =46rom the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP =
MUST
>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>    related or correlated.
> =20
>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
> =20
> =20
> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are =
out  of sync (for whatever reason).
> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit =
NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was =
created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time =
of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
> =20
> =20
> =
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> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
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> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
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privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
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> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026644D6@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:11:41 +0200
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References: <066.b54c2f5aeb31c9b3f88c96008120290d@trac.tools.ietf.org> <32153_1391613236_52F25534_32153_19305_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487240@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2236@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <D5537D63-8863-4F8E-8E61-A9ED93D957BB@gmail.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B25AF@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097723D7@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D202663C0C@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <32578_1392038726_52F8D345_32578_229_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4974D3@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D202663C4A@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772EF4@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <19874_1392116210_52FA01F2_19874_3990_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E499C4E@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209773085@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52FA3CC6.905020 5@usdonovans.com> <17910_1392132298_52FA40CA_17910_2863_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A28D@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <11546_1392132645_52FA4225_11546_3173_1_0aa80fb0-8382-459e-aebf-2ee5d5f70edc@PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026644D6@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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So are we converging to an agreement here? I could join the
camp of U/MC/N/L/J..

- Jouni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:52 PM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" =
<jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

> Dear all
>=20
> I come back a bit late on this long debate to confirm my position that =
I share with  Ulrich MCruz Nirav and I think now Lionel and that I again =
summarize here in these two statements :=20
> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is =
known
> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host =
is not known (only the Destination realm).
>=20
>> =46rom History, we have started by defining the Host report so to =
control the traffic towards each server,(our main goal), but we observed =
a difficulty when the reacting node does not know  the host to which a  =
request is sent and for this  we introduced the realm report. Annex B1 =
example in the draft is the use case well illustrating  this approach =
and  which corresponds to the above statements.
>=20
> Another point which was mentioned, is, for  the reacting node, to keep =
the throttling based on realm report independent of the throttling based =
on the host report, this is naturally achieved with the two above =
statements as we distinguish requests having a destination host from =
those having not. But if we can apply both reports to the same request, =
then we need additional rules eg  which report prevails; in the =
discussion there were also divergence on this point, but we can imagine =
other rules eg the report that has the highest reduction value prevails, =
why not in some cases, so a trend to overcomplexify.=20
>=20
> For me the two above statements avoid overlapping between the two =
reports  and are simple to apply, so I keep my preference for these two =
statements.
>=20
> Best regards
>=20
> JJacques  =20
>=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
lionel.morand@orange.com
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 16:31
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20
> So now I understand Ulrich, Maria Cruz and JJ comments.
>=20
> "My" proposal would force the servers in the realm to always send an =
OLR just to say "I'm not overloaded" i.e. with the value 0. That is =
anyway a possibility.
> But if we want to avoid that, Realm type must only apply to message =
without destination host.
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
lionel.morand@orange.com Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 16:25 =C0 : =
Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of =
OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Actually I've missed this point. Sorry.
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan =
Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 16:08 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: =
[Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>=20
>=20
> On 2/11/14 8:19 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>> Lionel,
>>=20
>> About first case:
>>=20
>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm=20
>> traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with=20
>> Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host
>>=20
>> I do not agree on this, since if Destination Host is used, there is =
no reason to throttle messages if this Host has not provided any OLR.
> SRD> There is if the reacting node has received an overload report
> requesting a traffic reduction on the realm.  The server/host does not =
have visibility of the entire realm.=20
>> This is in line with the example used from the beginning:
>> ---------
>> ..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is =
50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a =
client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at =
all overloaded S1?
>> What is wrong with letting the client
>> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request =
to=20
>> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>> ------------
>>=20
>> And I think this is what JJ commented:
>> [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to =
clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so =
reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  =
is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination =
Host S1.
>>=20
>> In my opinion, reducing traffic to S1 is wrong.
> SRD> It isn't reducing traffic to S1.  It is reducing traffic to the =
realm.
>>=20
>> Regards
>> /MCruz
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
>> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:57
>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> Hi maria-cruz,
>>=20
>> JJ agreed on the following approach:
>>=20
>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm =
traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with =
Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a =
misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to =
Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not =
received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, =
reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>>=20
>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host =
traffic reduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a =
Destination-Host. No reduction for messages with only a =
Destination-Realm.
>> [JJ] OK
>>=20
>> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host =
traffic and for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will =
apply for messages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host =
reduction will apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the =
Destination-Realm AVP).
>> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>>=20
>> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over =
realm reduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm =
and the reacting has received info about both type of overload.
>>=20
>> What is the issue with this approach?
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
>> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 11:49 =C0 : =
dime@ietf.org Objet=20
>> : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> Hello,
>> I agree with JJ:
>>=20
>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm =
traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with =
Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a =
misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to =
Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not =
received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, =
reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>>=20
>> [MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there =
is any applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, =
and will be applicable from next request on.
>> Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate =
whether we have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity =
& applicability.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN,=20
>> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
>> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> Hi Lionel
>>=20
>> Please see in line
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] =
Envoy=E9=20
>> : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 14:25 =C0 : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES=20
>> (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: =
Semantics=20
>> of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.
>>=20
>> I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:
>>=20
>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm =
traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with =
Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a =
misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to =
Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not =
received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, =
reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>>=20
>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host =
traffic reduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a =
Destination-Host. No reduction for messages with only a =
Destination-Realm.
>> [JJ] OK
>>=20
>> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host =
traffic and for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will =
apply for messages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host =
reduction will apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the =
Destination-Realm AVP).
>> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>>=20
>> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over =
realm reduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm =
and the reacting has received info about both type of overload.
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN,=20
>> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56 =
=C0 :=20
>> dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of=20
>> OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> Dear  all
>>=20
>> I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
>> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host =
is=20
>> known
>> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host =
is not known (only the Destination realm).
>>=20
>> I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; =
e.g about the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but =
the realm is overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports =
from host S1 (so no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but =
according to Lionel comment, I understand  client will have to throttle =
the requests sent to S1 according to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.
>>=20
>> JJacques
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz=20
>> Bartolome Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 17:15 =C0 : =
dime@ietf.org=20
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram =
he provided.
>> ----
>> As a summary:
>> Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the =
agent and host type OLRs from the servers.
>> The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node =
when sending/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR =
will be relevant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling =
host type requests.
>> -----
>>=20
>> It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, =
and then it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client =
will not apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received =
back, Client will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host =
type OLR has been received by Client.
>> The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host =
OLR plus Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may =
complicate the solution.
>>=20
>> Best regards
>> /MCruz
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich=20=

>> (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
>> To: ext Jouni Korhonen
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the =
unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not =
overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm =
overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending =
host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>>> What is wrong with letting the client -not throttle host-type=20
>>> requests to S1, -throttle host type request to
>>> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
>> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>> I am OK with Lionel's
>> "wording" here.
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20
>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>=20
>>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the =
routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present =
over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case =
except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>>>=20
>>> Lioenl
>>>=20
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan=20=

>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:56 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet =
: Re:
>>> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>=20
>>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all =
requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This =
implies that it would apply to requests that also have a =
Destination-Host specified.
>>>=20
>>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify =
the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>>=20
>>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the =
host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a =
result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part =
of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the =
host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host =
overload.
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it =
prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the =
whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by =
the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply =
always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in =
the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been =
received for this destination-host.
>>>=20
>>> Does it make sense?
>>>=20
>>> Lionel
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:55
>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>=20
>>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>=20
>>> Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests=20
>>> overload treatment of a given report type applies.
>>> Proposal:
>>>=20
>>>    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to =
requests
>>>       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its =
value
>>>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received =
message
>>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request =
matches the
>>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of =
the
>>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR =
AVP.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request =
matches the
>>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of =
the
>>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR =
AVP.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =
_____________________________________________________________________
>>> _ ___________________________________________________
>>>=20
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations=20=

>>> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre =
diffuses,=20
>>> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message=20=

>>> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi =
que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>=20
>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or=20
>>> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not =
be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>> Thank you.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>> _______________________________________________
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>> DiME mailing list
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> =
______________________________________________________________________
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>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les =
pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> =
______________________________________________________________________
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>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les =
pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les =
pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les =
pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Tue Feb 11 23:43:31 2014
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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
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#50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info

 Now (chapter 4.3):

    The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicit information to which
    application it applies to and who inserted the AVP or whom the
    specific OC-OLR AVP concerns to. Both these information is
    implicitly learned from the encapsulating Diameter message/command.
    The application the OC-OLR AVP applies to is the same as the
    Application-Id found in the Diameter message header.  The identity
    the OC-OLR AVP concerns is determined from the Origin-Host AVP found
    from the encapsulating Diameter command.


 My understanding is that â€œwho inserted the AVPâ€ cannot always be learned
 from the encapsulating Diameter message, since â€œorigin-hostâ€ may not
 always contain the host that inserted the OLR.
 A part from that, â€œwhom the specific OC-OLR AVP concerns toâ€, could be a
 bit misleadingâ€¦ â€œwhomâ€ may be host, realm, or any other future ReportType,
 or even any other â€œnarrowed scopeâ€ within the OLR. Last sentence is
 affected by this ambiguity as well.


 New proposal (related to new text proposed chapter 4.6, see to Issue #34):

 The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicitly all information needed by the
 reacting node in order to decide whether a subsequent request must undergo
 a throttling process with the received reduction percentage.
 The following information is implicitly known from the received
 application answer and OC-OLR AVP, that is used by reacting node to
 identify subsequent requests that are requested to be throttled:

 a)The Application-ID is the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
   Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

 b)The Destination-Realm AVP (if required, see 4.6) is the value of the
 Origin-Host AVP of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

 c)The Destination-Host AVP (if required, see 4.6) is the value of the
 Origin-Host AVP of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/50>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Tue Feb 11 23:51:45 2014
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#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter
 message a DOIC
 supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).

 Why is "should" used?

 Proposal: replace SHOULD by MUST

-- 
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
     Type:  defect                             |  BartolomÃ©
 Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
 Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
                                               |   Keywords:
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/51>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org  Wed Feb 12 00:13:18 2014
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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
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#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history

 Now (chapter 4.7):
    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.

 Proposal:
 The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
 and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
 requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.


 The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is
 required to consider history of sent information when throttling.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
     Type:  defect                             |  BartolomÃ©
 Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
 Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
                                               |   Keywords:
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Wed Feb 12 00:14:22 2014
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.

1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and =
without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account b=
y reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP r=
eceived in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identi=
fied by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported b=
y an agent on the path?=20

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I agree with Ben here.
The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for th=
e reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the re=
acting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when th=
is server does not support DOIC.

In fact, we have already included this as a requirement  in our 3GPP TR:

6.3.3	Implicit Overload Indication
6.3.3.1	Introduction
IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of impl=
icit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse net=
works.
However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined=
 in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommende=
d that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen=
 even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism u=
nder definition, but client handling of such indications is even more impor=
tant when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
At least the following indications may be considered:
-	DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the rec=
eipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Di=
ameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications t=
o define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking int=
o account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME =
may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER=
_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
-	Lack of response:
In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any =
Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in th=
e client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each applicati=
on, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For e=
xample, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of m=
essages have not been answered.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

> 1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially)=20
> reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.=20
> I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge,=20
> but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers=20
> in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I=20
> might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a=20
> higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can=20
> thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement;=20
> where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to=20
> distinguish between
> a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested,=20
> and
> b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic=20
> reduction requested</Ulrich>
>=20

At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be=
 able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. =
But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mi=
xed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _eas=
ier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what=
 don't.=20

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, bu=
t hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumptio=
n about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the differe=
nce between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must as=
sume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that so=
me servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.

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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
Thread-Index: AQHPJlD7NvPtWONPVUazL45pZeb7hpqukxIAgAADxQCAAAUcgIAAYRYAgAAcxICAAPpJ0IABO9pA
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:43:49 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:


Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:


On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:

#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Wed Feb 12 00:47:08 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to	be rethought
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs	to	be rethought
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Hello,

not sure I understand the proposal.

Isn't it so that session states are maintained by client and server whereas=
 capabilities are exchanged between reacting node and reporting node?
In the following example configuration

                                         +--------+
+----------------+                       | A1     |              +---------=
+
| client         |-----------------------|        |--------------| Server  =
|
| not supporting |                       +--------+              |         =
|  =20
| DOIC           |                       +--------+              |         =
|    =20
|                |-----------------------| A2     |--------------|         =
|=20
+----------------+                       |        |              +---------=
+
                                         +--------+

A first request within a session may be sent from Client via A1 to the serv=
er; a second request within the same session may take the path via A2. A1 a=
nd A2 may support different capabilities.
The proposed requirement not to allow a capability change within a session =
would not be met by such example configurations.

I'm ok with Ben's proposal=20

 >.....to mandate that the capabilities are stateless,
 >that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a response mus=
t
 >match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:14 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs t=
o be rethought

Hello all,

I would like to come back to the initial comments by Ben on this subject:

>The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
 >Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a capabilities
 >announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to tie that lifetime to
 >Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect to have different capability
 >sets for different sessions. (and it doesn't help at all for non-session
 >applications or pseudo-sessions.)

[MCruz] I agree we do not need to tie a capability set to a session, but on=
 the other hand, what could be the reason to modify the capability set with=
in a session?
I think this was the original reason why it is considered that the capabili=
ty just needs to be announced once per session. In fact, I think this is a =
valid solution.

> I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are stateless,
 >that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR in a response mus=
t
 >match the OC-Supported-Features from the corresponding request.
 >Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set associated
 >with a capabilities set.

[MCruz] We could allow to define the capability set just once per session (=
obviously for session-based applications, for non-session based keeps being=
 in each message).
We can define that within a session it is not allowed to modify the capabil=
ity set.


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jouni Korhonen
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 18:56
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs t=
o be rethought


Fine with me. That just needs to be just stated more clearly.
Now there are too many SHOULDs and stuff.

- JOuni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 2:32 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wieh=
e@nsn.com> wrote:

> I agree that OC-OLR AVPs are allowed only in answer messages.
>=20
> But I do not agree with
>>> if there are other DOIC AVPs in the request, then the absence of the=20
>>> OC-Supported-Features is interpreted as support for the default=20
>>> abatement algorithm.
>=20
> "other DOIC AVPs" would be AVPs defined for future extensions. A reportin=
g node that does not support any future extension would simply ignore "othe=
r DOIC AVPs" and would interprete the absence of OC-Supported-Features as "=
DOIC not supported by any downstream node".
>=20
> Things are not symmetric.
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Jouni=20
> Korhonen
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:45 AM
> To: Steve Donovan
> Cc: ben@nostrum.com; dime@ietf.org;=20
> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #49: capabilities announcement mechanism=20
> needs to be rethought
>=20
>=20
> Your assumption is correct. "Other DOIC AVPs" is a future thing.
> Currently we have no other DOIC AVPs for requests. It is just I asking=20
> the same semantics for the OC-Supported-Features for both directions.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 1:27 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wro=
te:
>=20
>> It has been my assumption that the OC-OLR AVP would only be allowed in a=
nswer messages.  Is this the consensus?
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/10/14 4:27 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>>> Basically yes.. however, if there are other DOIC AVPs in the=20
>>> request, then the absence of the OC-Supported-Features is=20
>>> interpreted as support for the default abatement algorithm.
>>> We should have that behaviour in both requests and answers.
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Steve Donovan=20
>>> <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> My sense from recent discussions is that the lifetime of the OC-Suppor=
ted-Feature AVP is assumed to be one transaction.  This means that the AVP =
must be included in all request messages sent by a reacting node.
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/7/14 4:19 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> #49: capabilities announcement mechanism needs to be rethought
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The capabilities announcement mechanism needs serious rethought.
>>>>> Specifically, the lifetime of the state associated with a=20
>>>>> capabilities announcement is unclear. It does not make sense to=20
>>>>> tie that lifetime to Diameter session lifetimes, unless we expect=20
>>>>> to have different capability sets for different sessions. (and it=20
>>>>> doesn't help at all for non-session applications or=20
>>>>> pseudo-sessions.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think we either need to mandate that the capabilities are=20
>>>>> stateless, that is, must be included in every request, and any OLR=20
>>>>> in a response must match the OC-Supported-Features from the correspon=
ding request.
>>>>> Otherwise, we need a way to activate and deactivate the set=20
>>>>> associated with a capabilities set.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (This is a side effect of allowing DOIC to cross non-supporting=20
>>>>> agents. If we didn't allow that, we could make DOIC support and=20
>>>>> capabilites negotiation happen as part of the CAR exchange. )
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
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From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Wed Feb 12 00:57:38 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



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<body lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m confused,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought =
that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comme=
nt affects as well clause 5.5.2:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This shoul=
d be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the expected b=
ehavior (i.e. it is discarded).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This appro=
ach sounds reasonable to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I woul=
d like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0=
 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should
 be discarded by client. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So, here's some proposed text. =
(intentionally ignoring the related discussion about handling invalid value=
s):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 4.5, first paragraph, l=
ast 2 sentences:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Old:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Validity duration values 0 (i.e=
., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid va=
lidity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were =
not present.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">New:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Validity duration values above =
86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if =
the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicate=
s that an existing overload condition
 has ended and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Old:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;The value of the Reductio=
n-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values gre=
ater than 100 are interpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no =
traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under
 a severe load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percen=
tage AVP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatem=
ent algorithm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Note that there is no zero (0) =
value defined for the Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logicall=
y indicate that no overload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting node=
s use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value
 of zero (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Just post it here.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">#45: Why is a validity duration=
 of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich, all,<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposal was to use O=
C-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, since this could =
be generally applied to any algorithm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Reduction-Percentag=
e =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found this reasonable.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, U=
lrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m con=
fused,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought that people wer=
e in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



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</head>
<body lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you =
for the clarification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulric=
h, all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The propos=
al was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, si=
nce this could be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Redu=
ction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found th=
is reasonable.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ul=
rich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m confused,</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought =
that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comme=
nt affects as well clause 5.5.2:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This shoul=
d be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the expected b=
ehavior (i.e. it is discarded).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This appro=
ach sounds reasonable to me.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I woul=
d like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0=
 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should
 be discarded by client. </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So, here's some proposed text. =
(intentionally ignoring the related discussion about handling invalid value=
s):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 4.5, first paragraph, l=
ast 2 sentences:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Old:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Validity duration values 0 (i.e=
., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid va=
lidity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were =
not present.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">New:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Validity duration values above =
86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if =
the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicate=
s that an existing overload condition
 has ended and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Old:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;The value of the Reductio=
n-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values gre=
ater than 100 are interpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no =
traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under
 a severe load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percen=
tage AVP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatem=
ent algorithm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Note that there is no zero (0) =
value defined for the Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logicall=
y indicate that no overload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting node=
s use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value
 of zero (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Just post it here.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">#45: Why is a validity duration=
 of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2F51DEMUMBX014nsnin_--


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:22:52 +0200
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References: <075.edaabec86a9d8f96dc7c8731cb6d4ef2@trac.tools.ietf.org> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2F32@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510)
Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
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Also in answer messages now? The text quoted below does not =
differentiate
whether it is answer or request.

- Jouni

On Feb 12, 2014, at 11:16 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> I agree.
>=20
> Absence of OC-Supported-Features AVP from a request means "DOIC not =
supported".
> Ulrich
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext dime issue =
tracker
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:52 AM
> To: maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
>=20
> #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
>=20
> Now:
> The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter
> message a DOIC
> supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
>=20
> Why is "should" used?
>=20
> Proposal: replace SHOULD by MUST
>=20
> --=20
> =
-----------------------------------------------+--------------------------=
-
> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>     Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>                                               |   Keywords:
> =
-----------------------------------------------+--------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/51>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
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I am OK with both proposals with a slight preference to Ulrich's
text, since it avoid unnecessary duplication of text from Section
4.6 (which is to be formulated..)

- JOuni


On Feb 12, 2014, at 11:13 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
> I'm ok with the first sentence:
>> The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicitly all information needed by =
the
>> reacting node in order to decide whether a subsequent request must =
undergo
>> a throttling process with the received reduction percentage.
>=20
> The rest, however, should be replaced with e.g.:
>=20
> The value of the OC-Report-Type AVP within the OC-OLR AVP indicates =
which implicit=20
> information is relevant for this decision (see clause 4.6).
>=20
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext dime issue =
tracker
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:43 AM
> To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; =
maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
>=20
> #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
>=20
> Now (chapter 4.3):
>=20
>    The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicit information to which
>    application it applies to and who inserted the AVP or whom the
>    specific OC-OLR AVP concerns to. Both these information is
>    implicitly learned from the encapsulating Diameter message/command.
>    The application the OC-OLR AVP applies to is the same as the
>    Application-Id found in the Diameter message header.  The identity
>    the OC-OLR AVP concerns is determined from the Origin-Host AVP =
found
>    from the encapsulating Diameter command.
>=20
>=20
> My understanding is that =93who inserted the AVP=94 cannot always be =
learned
> from the encapsulating Diameter message, since =93origin-host=94 may =
not
> always contain the host that inserted the OLR.
> A part from that, =93whom the specific OC-OLR AVP concerns to=94, =
could be a
> bit misleading=85 =93whom=94 may be host, realm, or any other future =
ReportType,
> or even any other =93narrowed scope=94 within the OLR. Last sentence =
is
> affected by this ambiguity as well.
>=20
>=20
> New proposal (related to new text proposed chapter 4.6, see to Issue =
#34):
>=20
> The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicitly all information needed by =
the
> reacting node in order to decide whether a subsequent request must =
undergo
> a throttling process with the received reduction percentage.
> The following information is implicitly known from the received
> application answer and OC-OLR AVP, that is used by reacting node to
> identify subsequent requests that are requested to be throttled:
>=20
> a)The Application-ID is the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>   Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> b)The Destination-Realm AVP (if required, see 4.6) is the value of the
> Origin-Host AVP of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> c)The Destination-Host AVP (if required, see 4.6) is the value of the
> Origin-Host AVP of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> --=20
> =
-------------------------------------+------------------------------------=
-
> Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:  1.0
> Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
> =
-------------------------------------+------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/50>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Wed Feb 12 01:32:58 2014
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <075.fdee2d1220a4dd797b0b12767aebd1cf@trac.tools.ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:32:50 +0200
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To: dime@ietf.org
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510)
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
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Fine by me.

- Jouni


On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:13 AM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:

> #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>=20
> Now (chapter 4.7):
>    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of =
Unsigned32
>    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
>=20
> Proposal:
> The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
> and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
> requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.
>=20
>=20
> The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is
> required to consider history of sent information when throttling.
>=20
> --=20
> =
-----------------------------------------------+--------------------------=
-
> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>     Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>                                               |   Keywords:
> =
-----------------------------------------------+--------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Wed Feb 12 01:36:28 2014
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Fine by me.. though you then need to apply the same change=20
to the rest of this paragraph, not only the first one.

Also, please update this additional concern into the
issue tracker issue #52.

- Jouni

On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Same comment also applies to following paragraph in 5.5.2
>=20
> Now:
>   0 < value < 100
>=20
>      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
>      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
>      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
>      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
>      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only =
send
>      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
>      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is =
up
>      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
>      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
>      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
>=20
> Proposal:
> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
> reduce its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
> reacting node would send 100 packets to the				=
<---
> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
> of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
> 90 packets per second. How the reacting node achieves the "true
> reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
> to the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every
> 10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
> logic try to recover from it.
>=20
>=20
> We should not specify a rates for the simple loss algorithm. It=92s up =
to the implementation how to reduce, but no time unit has to be =
specified.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]=20
> Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:13
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous =
history
>=20
> #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>=20
> Now (chapter 4.7):
>    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of =
Unsigned32
>    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
>=20
> Proposal:
> The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32  =
and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is  =
requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.
>=20
>=20
> The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is  =
required to consider history of sent information when throttling.
>=20
> --=20
> =
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------+---
> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>     Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>                                               |   Keywords:
> =
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------+---
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Wed Feb 12 01:55:42 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Ulrich,
Thanks for your response, see comments please

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.

1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and =
without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account b=
y reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
[MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacting no=
de overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by TR), =
therefore any 3GPP application that will support new "Overload mitigation" =
feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its procedures with th=
is objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP "Overload mitigati=
on" feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is very beneficial that the =
reacting node could identify at any moment whether or not the reporting nod=
e supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemented could be potentially di=
fferent.

2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP r=
eceived in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identi=
fied by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported b=
y an agent on the path?=20
[MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Regardles=
s the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the reacting n=
ode needs to treat "implicit indications" (like TOO_BUSY), expected reactio=
n may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC. This informati=
on is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reaction.


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I agree with Ben here.
The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for th=
e reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the re=
acting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when th=
is server does not support DOIC.

In fact, we have already included this as a requirement  in our 3GPP TR:

6.3.3	Implicit Overload Indication
6.3.3.1	Introduction
IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of impl=
icit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse net=
works.
However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined=
 in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommende=
d that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen=
 even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism u=
nder definition, but client handling of such indications is even more impor=
tant when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
At least the following indications may be considered:
-	DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the rec=
eipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Di=
ameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications t=
o define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking int=
o account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME =
may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER=
_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
-	Lack of response:
In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any =
Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in th=
e client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each applicati=
on, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For e=
xample, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of m=
essages have not been answered.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

> 1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially)=20
> reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.
> I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge,=20
> but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers=20
> in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I=20
> might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a=20
> higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can=20
> thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement;=20
> where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to=20
> distinguish between
> a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested,=20
> and
> b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic=20
> reduction requested</Ulrich>
>=20

At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be=
 able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. =
But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mi=
xed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _eas=
ier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what=
 don't.=20

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, bu=
t hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumptio=
n about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the differe=
nce between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must as=
sume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that so=
me servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F24ACE.6080501@usdonovans.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F25A38.2030408@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B22FB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D64E69@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <29031_1391678397_52F353BD_29031_478_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48CA45@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B233F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D65226@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B24BA@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772389@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68B44@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097726C5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68C65@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772718@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52F8FC53.4070508@usdonovans.com> <8685_1392050573_52F9018D_8685_14082_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497B0A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6978A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772E88@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D697CA@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772EB3@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <4993_1392114947_52F9FD03_4993_223_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E499B60@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920977300C@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <10989_1392132919_52FA4337_10989_2146_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A34E@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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--_000_E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026645F9FR712WXCHMBA11z_--


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Wed Feb 12 02:34:29 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:34:21 +0000
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
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Jouni,
Thank you for the hint.

This depends on the outcome of issue #30.

For now I would agree to say "...MUST be included in every Diameter request=
...."

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:23 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org; maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests



Also in answer messages now? The text quoted below does not differentiate
whether it is answer or request.

- Jouni

On Feb 12, 2014, at 11:16 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wie=
he@nsn.com> wrote:

> I agree.
>=20
> Absence of OC-Supported-Features AVP from a request means "DOIC not suppo=
rted".
> Ulrich
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext dime issue tra=
cker
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:52 AM
> To: maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
>=20
> #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
>=20
> Now:
> The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter
> message a DOIC
> supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
>=20
> Why is "should" used?
>=20
> Proposal: replace SHOULD by MUST
>=20
> --=20
> -----------------------------------------------+-------------------------=
--
> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>     Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>                                               |   Keywords:
> -----------------------------------------------+-------------------------=
--
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/51>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Wed Feb 12 04:38:59 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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The reacting node (when receiving OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer) k=
nows that the corresponding request took a path towards the server on which=
 there is a reporting node (which supports DOIC). It does not know whether =
this reporting node is the server or an agent and it does not know whether =
subsequent requests will take the same path or a different path on which th=
ere may be no reporting node.=20
Consequently the presence of OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer does no=
t tell you anything usefull on which to base behaviour for subsequent reque=
sts targeted to the same server.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

Ulrich,
Thanks for your response, see comments please

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.

1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and =
without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account b=
y reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
[MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacting no=
de overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by TR), =
therefore any 3GPP application that will support new "Overload mitigation" =
feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its procedures with th=
is objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP "Overload mitigati=
on" feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is very beneficial that the =
reacting node could identify at any moment whether or not the reporting nod=
e supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemented could be potentially di=
fferent.

2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP r=
eceived in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identi=
fied by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported b=
y an agent on the path?=20
[MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Regardles=
s the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the reacting n=
ode needs to treat "implicit indications" (like TOO_BUSY), expected reactio=
n may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC. This informati=
on is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reaction.


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I agree with Ben here.
The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for th=
e reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the re=
acting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when th=
is server does not support DOIC.

In fact, we have already included this as a requirement  in our 3GPP TR:

6.3.3	Implicit Overload Indication
6.3.3.1	Introduction
IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of impl=
icit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse net=
works.
However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined=
 in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommende=
d that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen=
 even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism u=
nder definition, but client handling of such indications is even more impor=
tant when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
At least the following indications may be considered:
-	DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the rec=
eipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Di=
ameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications t=
o define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking int=
o account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME =
may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER=
_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
-	Lack of response:
In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any =
Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in th=
e client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each applicati=
on, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For e=
xample, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of m=
essages have not been answered.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

> 1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially)=20
> reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.
> I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge,=20
> but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers=20
> in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I=20
> might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a=20
> higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can=20
> thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement;=20
> where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to=20
> distinguish between
> a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested,=20
> and
> b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic=20
> reduction requested</Ulrich>
>=20

At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be=
 able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. =
But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mi=
xed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _eas=
ier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what=
 don't.=20

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, bu=
t hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumptio=
n about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the differe=
nce between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must as=
sume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that so=
me servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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Maybe its worth to explicitly say that "... there is no reason to remember =
anything about it" includes "no need for reacting nodes to remember sequenc=
e numbers of expired OLRs" or even mandate that sequence numbers of expired=
 OLRs must not be remembered by reacting nodes.
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 2:48 PM
To: Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR

I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real r=
equirements for the sequence-number are:

- Globally/eternally unique
- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by S=
teve)=20

The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to =
generate sequence numbers with such properties.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy=E9=A0: samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33
=C0=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR


Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:

o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
  reason to remember anything about it
o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
  "globally and eternally unique".

- Jouni



On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com> wrote:

> Steve,
> =20
> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync afte=
r OLR expiry.
> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything =
about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any =
value.=20
>=20
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
> =20
> A couple of things -=20
>=20
> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over t=
ime, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but=
 is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set=
 the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and =
then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overloa=
d report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp =
as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global =
sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server=
 query that global sequence number server after each reboot.
>=20
> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way=
 to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of a=
n active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no rea=
son to remember anything about it and the next overload report received cou=
ld, conceivably have any value.=20
>=20
> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter=
 specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally a=
nd eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiatio=
n is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.
>=20
> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP =
timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a sim=
ilar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandator=
y portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for t=
he implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
> =20
> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
> The receiver would accept
> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
> and then silently discards
> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
> with no way to come back to sync.
> =20
> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
> =20
> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plau=
sibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and tim=
e of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the probl=
em. But in the moment I don't see another way.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
> To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
> =20
> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number alwa=
ys increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that t=
he sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably=
 a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an=
 interop requirement.
> =20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@ora=
nge.com> wrote:
> =20
> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it i=
s a case for a "MUST".
> We are not violating anything.
> =20
> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to=
 know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format=
 of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR
> =20
> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet=
 the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementat=
ion. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Se=
ction 6 of 2119 includes the following:
> =20
> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
> =20
> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expecte=
d peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfec=
tly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-nor=
mative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good =
way to do this.
> =20
> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> =20
> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case t=
o mandate a specific semantic.
> =20
> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a=
 simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR
> =20
> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  Th=
ere is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be in=
cluded only as one way of addressing the requirement.
> =20
> Steve
> =20
> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
> I also agree.
> =20
> Regards,
> Nirav.
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
> =20
> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
> =20
> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this se=
quence-number.
> =20
> Lionel
> =20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>    From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>    related or correlated.
> =20
>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
> =20
> =20
> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out =
 of sync (for whatever reason).
> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  =
timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created, =
 and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception =
 must be ignored by the reacting node.
> =20
> =20
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
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> =20
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> _________________________________________________________________________=
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> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re=
cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages =
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> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o=
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___________________________________________________________________________=
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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
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Thanks Jouni, I didn't realize.
One more correction added

> Proposal:
> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce=20
> its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
> reacting node would send 100 packets to the				<---
> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20
> 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true      =
 <---
> reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to=20
> the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=20
> packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try=20
> to recover from it.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 10:36
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previo=
us history


Fine by me.. though you then need to apply the same change to the rest of t=
his paragraph, not only the first one.

Also, please update this additional concern into the issue tracker issue #5=
2.

- Jouni

On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@er=
icsson.com> wrote:

> Same comment also applies to following paragraph in 5.5.2
>=20
> Now:
>   0 < value < 100
>=20
>      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
>      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
>      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
>      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
>      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
>      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
>      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
>      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
>      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
>=20
> Proposal:
> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce=20
> its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
> reacting node would send 100 packets to the				<---
> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20
> 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
> 90 packets per second. How the reacting node achieves the "true=20
> reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to=20
> the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=20
> packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try=20
> to recover from it.
>=20
>=20
> We should not specify a rates for the simple loss algorithm. It's up to t=
he implementation how to reduce, but no time unit has to be specified.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
> Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:13
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous=20
> history
>=20
> #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>=20
> Now (chapter 4.7):
>    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
>=20
> Proposal:
> The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32  an=
d describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is  requested to =
reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.
>=20
>=20
> The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is  req=
uired to consider history of sent information when throttling.
>=20
> --
> -----------------------------------------------+----------------------
> -----------------------------------------------+--
> -----------------------------------------------+---
> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>     Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>                                               |   Keywords:
> -----------------------------------------------+----------------------
> -----------------------------------------------+--
> -----------------------------------------------+---
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?
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#53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?

 Now following text seems to be wrong and could be deleted:

    .........  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP
    is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
    Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
    recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
    the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
    replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.

 As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the same
 chapter:

     .....
     .....

    If the OC-OLR AVP is received for the first time, the reacting node
    MUST create an overload condition state associated with the related
    realm or a specific host in the realm identified in the message
    carrying the OC-OLR AVP, as described in Section 5.5.1.

    If the value of the OC-Sequence-Number AVP contained in the received
    OC-OLR AVP is equal to or less than the value stored in an existing
    overload condition state, the received OC-OLR AVP SHOULD be silently
    discarded.  If the value of the OC-Sequence-Number AVP contained in
    the received OC-OLR AVP is greater than the value stored in an
    existing overload condition state or there is no previously recorded
    sequence number, the reacting node MUST update the overload condition
    state associated with the realm or the specific node is the realm.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
     Type:  defect                             |  BartolomÃ©
 Priority:  minor                              |     Status:  new
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
 Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
                                               |   Keywords:
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/53>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From ben@nostrum.com  Wed Feb 12 05:43:55 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
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On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:43 AM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@grenache.tools.ietf.org> wrote:

> #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
>=20
> Now (chapter 4.3):
>=20
>    The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicit information to which
>    application it applies to and who inserted the AVP or whom the
>    specific OC-OLR AVP concerns to. Both these information is
>    implicitly learned from the encapsulating Diameter message/command.
>    The application the OC-OLR AVP applies to is the same as the
>    Application-Id found in the Diameter message header.  The identity
>    the OC-OLR AVP concerns is determined from the Origin-Host AVP =
found
>    from the encapsulating Diameter command.
>=20
>=20
> My understanding is that =93who inserted the AVP=94 cannot always be =
learned
> from the encapsulating Diameter message, since =93origin-host=94 may =
not
> always contain the host that inserted the OLR.
> A part from that, =93whom the specific OC-OLR AVP concerns to=94, =
could be a
> bit misleading=85 =93whom=94 may be host, realm, or any other future =
ReportType,
> or even any other =93narrowed scope=94 within the OLR. Last sentence =
is
> affected by this ambiguity as well.
>=20
>=20
> New proposal (related to new text proposed chapter 4.6, see to Issue =
#34):
>=20
> The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicitly all information needed by =
the
> reacting node in order to decide whether a subsequent request must =
undergo
> a throttling process with the received reduction percentage.
> The following information is implicitly known from the received
> application answer and OC-OLR AVP, that is used by reacting node to
> identify subsequent requests that are requested to be throttled:
>=20
> a)The Application-ID is the value of the Application-ID of the =
Diameter
>   Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> b)The Destination-Realm AVP (if required, see 4.6) is the value of the
> Origin-Host AVP of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> c)The Destination-Host AVP (if required, see 4.6) is the value of the
> Origin-Host AVP of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

b) and c) are the same. Was one intended to be Realm?


>=20
> --=20
> =
-------------------------------------+------------------------------------=
-
> Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:  1.0
> Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
> =
-------------------------------------+------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/50>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
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On Feb 12, 2014, at 3:13 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
> I'm ok with the first sentence:
>> The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicitly all information needed by =
the
>> reacting node in order to decide whether a subsequent request must =
undergo
>> a throttling process with the received reduction percentage.
>=20
> The rest, however, should be replaced with e.g.:
>=20
> The value of the OC-Report-Type AVP within the OC-OLR AVP indicates =
which implicit=20
> information is relevant for this decision (see clause 4.6).

I'm not sure I understand. Did you mean to delete the text about where =
you specifically find the "implicit" parameters? If so, why?


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
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Ben,

See below
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 14:44
To: dime@ietf.org list
Cc: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; Maria Cruz Bartolome
Subject: Re: [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info


On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:43 AM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@grenache.tools.i=
etf.org> wrote:

> #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
>=20
> Now (chapter 4.3):
>=20
>    The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicit information to which
>    application it applies to and who inserted the AVP or whom the
>    specific OC-OLR AVP concerns to. Both these information is
>    implicitly learned from the encapsulating Diameter message/command.
>    The application the OC-OLR AVP applies to is the same as the
>    Application-Id found in the Diameter message header.  The identity
>    the OC-OLR AVP concerns is determined from the Origin-Host AVP found
>    from the encapsulating Diameter command.
>=20
>=20
> My understanding is that "who inserted the AVP" cannot always be=20
> learned from the encapsulating Diameter message, since "origin-host"=20
> may not always contain the host that inserted the OLR.
> A part from that, "whom the specific OC-OLR AVP concerns to", could be=20
> a bit misleading. "whom" may be host, realm, or any other future=20
> ReportType, or even any other "narrowed scope" within the OLR. Last=20
> sentence is affected by this ambiguity as well.
>=20
>=20
> New proposal (related to new text proposed chapter 4.6, see to Issue #34)=
:
>=20
> The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicitly all information needed by=20
> the reacting node in order to decide whether a subsequent request must=20
> undergo a throttling process with the received reduction percentage.
> The following information is implicitly known from the received=20
> application answer and OC-OLR AVP, that is used by reacting node to=20
> identify subsequent requests that are requested to be throttled:
>=20
> a)The Application-ID is the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>   Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> b)The Destination-Realm AVP (if required, see 4.6) is the value of the=20
> _Origin-REALM_ AVP of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>=20
> c)The Destination-Host AVP (if required, see 4.6) is the value of the=20
> Origin-Host AVP of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.

b) and c) are the same. Was one intended to be Realm?

[MCruz] Yes, this was the intention, corrected in caps above.=20

>=20
> --
> -------------------------------------+--------------------------------
> -------------------------------------+-----
> Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
> Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:  1.0
> Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
> -------------------------------------+--------------------------------
> -------------------------------------+-----
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/50>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20


From ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com  Wed Feb 12 06:00:11 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info
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-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 2:45 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; maria.cruz.bartolo=
me@ericsson.com
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info


On Feb 12, 2014, at 3:13 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
> I'm ok with the first sentence:
>> The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicitly all information needed by the
>> reacting node in order to decide whether a subsequent request must under=
go
>> a throttling process with the received reduction percentage.
>=20
> The rest, however, should be replaced with e.g.:
>=20
> The value of the OC-Report-Type AVP within the OC-OLR AVP indicates which=
 implicit=20
> information is relevant for this decision (see clause 4.6).

I'm not sure I understand. Did you mean to delete the text about where you =
specifically find the "implicit" parameters? If so, why?
<Ulrich> yes, because this will be covered by clause 4.6 (see issue #34)</U=
lrich>


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#54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP

 Now in chapter 4.6:

    The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
    report).

 This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise that
 we define this AVP as mandatory.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
     Type:  defect                             |  BartolomÃ©
 Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
 Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
                                               |   Keywords:
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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From jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Feb 12 11:30:36 2014
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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not	letting overload	reports expire
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:30:29 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not	letting	overload	reports expire
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Dear all

I come back on this ticket and your current conclusions;
We are in the area of guidance about the use of the expiry timer  but I thi=
nk there are important points to take care with the expiry timer :

If a server  sends OLRs with 50% traffic reduction, the client will divide =
the traffic by two. Then, if the server does not update the expiry timer an=
d leaves  it expire and that traffic conditions have not changed  on client=
 side, the client will stop  throttling  and will double the traffic which =
 I think the server will worry about.=20
 We need to avoid oscillations, and have a graceful behavior as expressed i=
n the requirements 2 , 3 and 7. In fact the server should  progressively de=
crease the value of the % reduction in OLRs it sends according to the dimin=
ution of the traffic it will observe (due to the decrease of the input traf=
fic coming back to normal conditions  on client side)  This is when server =
will  send  OLRs with 0% of traffic reduction without generating overload t=
hat it can  leave the expiry timer expire and no more send OLRs.
The other application of the expiry timer is for error or out of sync situa=
tions (Ulrich I think mentioned this point)  where the expiry timer acts as=
 a reset of the DOC mechanism but in such a case the server should  expect =
a sudden increase of traffic from clients generating overload on its side a=
nd then enter in the overload control by generating the relevant OLRs .=20

So for me the use of expiry timer should be quite limited, the main tool of=
 overload control is the % of reduction put the OLRs and its evolution over=
 time. Ben has mentioned other possibilities in the use of the expiry time,=
 may be, but we have to take care of the ones I mentioned =20

So I consider worthwhile to have  some recommendations in the draft on the =
expiry timer use.

Best regards

JJacques=20
=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 11 f=E9vrier 2014 23:32
=C0=A0: Maria Cruz Bartolome
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org list
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overlo=
ad reports expire


Fine with me.

- Jouni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@er=
icsson.com> wrote:

> Ben, Nirav,
>=20
> I follow same argumentation.
> Regards
> /MCruz
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nirav Salot=20
> (nsalot)
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:23
> To: Ben Campbell; Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting=20
> overload reports expire
>=20
> Ben,
>=20
> I resonate with your thinking below.
>=20
> Regards,
> Nirav.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:54 PM
> To: Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting=20
> overload reports expire
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:16 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
>>=20
>> My reasoning for explicit termination was that knowing the=20
>> implementation folks they will let overload conditions expire unless adv=
ised otherwise.
>> And having unnecessary stuff hanging around waiting for a cleanup is=20
>> not a good thing in general. But I am open here for other options..
>>=20
>=20
> I think it's reasonable to say that a reporting node should terminate an =
overload condition in a timely manner. But if it's about to expire anyway, =
then expiration might be just as timely as an explicit report.=20
>=20
> And of course, the definition of "timely" is somewhat a matter of policy.=
 For example, I can imagine an deployment that had a large number of client=
s using fairly short validity durations, and _never_ explicitly signaling a=
n end to an overload condition. This adds a bit of a "slow-start" to the re=
covery, since different clients will expire the overload condition at diffe=
rent times, and the load will ramp up gradually. I don't see anything wrong=
 with that. Of course, it wouldn't work if one chose long validity duration=
s, or if the signaling of overload to different clients happened in close s=
ynchronization.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Dear all

On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity period of =
0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?

In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server still s=
ending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request anymore tra=
ffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be  stable (end of ov=
erload condition as Ben reminded means stable  situation without traffic re=
duction ) , so server  can send 0% reduction OLR  but with a validity durat=
ion different from 0.
Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic wi=
th the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled p=
er second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error case (c=
f Mcruz mail)

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0 : ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On this ticket, &nbsp;I a=
gree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the Validity period of 0 to=
 indicate the end of overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But about the value of 0%=
 reduction why to forbid it ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the process to &nbsp;r=
eturn to normal traffic conditions, the &nbsp;server still sending OLR eg w=
ith &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will consider to no request anymor=
e traffic reduction
 but without being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;stable (end of overlo=
ad condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation without traffic r=
eduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nbsp; but with a val=
idity duration different from 0.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise it has to &nbsp=
;use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic with the client is 100=
0 request per second this means 10 requests throttled per second
 which should not be throttled.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, we do not ne=
ed to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an error case (cf Mcruz mail)<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you for the clarifi=
cation.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich, all,</span><=
span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposal was to use O=
C-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, since this could =
be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Reduction-Percentag=
e =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found this reasonable.<=
/span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><span =
lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, U=
lrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulr=
ich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m con=
fused,</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought that people wer=
e in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span><span lang=3D"=
DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,</span><span lan=
g=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><span =
lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span><span lang=3D"=
DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<span lang=3D"DE">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<span=
 lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<span lan=
g=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<spa=
n lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 03:11:28 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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I also tend to agree with JJ below.
Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduc=
tion - which can also indicate end of overload condition.

May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates =
end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually and t=
ogether. So,

-          0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the validity period if reduction is 0.

-          Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.

-          0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, th=
is is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload cond=
ition.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear all

On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity period of =
0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?

In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server still s=
ending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request anymore tra=
ffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be  stable (end of ov=
erload condition as Ben reminded means stable  situation without traffic re=
duction ) , so server  can send 0% reduction OLR  but with a validity durat=
ion different from 0.
Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic wi=
th the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled p=
er second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error case (c=
f Mcruz mail)

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0 : ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



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DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I also tend to agree with=
 JJ below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Unless there is a strong =
reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduction &#8211; which can al=
so indicate end of overload condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">May be we can clarify tha=
t 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates end of overload. In my vi=
ew, both are valid for the use, individually and together.
 So,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, non-=
zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the validi=
ty period if reduction is 0.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Non-zero reductio=
n, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the reduct=
ion if validity period is 0.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, 0 va=
lidity period =3D&gt; Valid as well. Generally, this is what the reporting =
node will use to indicate the end of overload condition.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On this ticket, &nbsp;I a=
gree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the Validity period of 0 to=
 indicate the end of overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But about the value of 0%=
 reduction why to forbid it ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the process to &nbsp;r=
eturn to normal traffic conditions, the &nbsp;server still sending OLR eg w=
ith &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will consider to no request anymor=
e traffic reduction
 but without being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;stable (end of overlo=
ad condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation without traffic r=
eduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nbsp; but with a val=
idity duration different from 0.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise it has to &nbsp=
;use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic with the client is 100=
0 request per second this means 10 requests throttled per second
 which should not be throttled.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, we do not ne=
ed to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an error case (cf Mcruz mail)<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org=
">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you for the clarifi=
cation.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich, all,</span><=
span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposal was to use O=
C-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, since this could =
be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Reduction-Percentag=
e =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found this reasonable.<=
/span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><span =
lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, U=
lrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulr=
ich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m con=
fused,</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought that people wer=
e in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span><span lang=3D"=
DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,</span><span lan=
g=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><span =
lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span><span lang=3D"=
DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<span lang=3D"DE">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<span=
 lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<span lan=
g=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<spa=
n lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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I also agree with the principle.

One minor clarification:
0%-reduction with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period can=
not be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence number needs to be stor=
ed for future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for =
future checking.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM
To: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also tend to agree with JJ below.
Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduc=
tion - which can also indicate end of overload condition.

May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates =
end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually and t=
ogether. So,

-          0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the validity period if reduction is 0.

-          Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.

-          0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, th=
is is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload cond=
ition.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear all

On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity period of =
0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?

In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server still s=
ending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request anymore tra=
ffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be  stable (end of ov=
erload condition as Ben reminded means stable  situation without traffic re=
duction ) , so server  can send 0% reduction OLR  but with a validity durat=
ion different from 0.
Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic wi=
th the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled p=
er second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error case (c=
f Mcruz mail)

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0 : ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agr=
ee with the principle.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One minor =
clarification:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">0%-reducti=
on with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period cannot be ign=
ored: as long as not expired the sequence number needs to
 be stored for future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be u=
sed for future checking.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I also ten=
d to agree with JJ below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Unless the=
re is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduction &#821=
1; which can also indicate end of overload condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">May be we =
can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates end of ove=
rload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually
 and together. So,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 =
reduction, non-zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ig=
nore the validity period if reduction is 0.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">No=
n-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ig=
nore the reduction if validity period is 0.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 =
reduction, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid as well. Generally, this is what=
 the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload
 condition. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On this ti=
cket, &nbsp;I agree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the Validity=
 period of 0 to indicate the end of overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But about =
the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the pro=
cess to &nbsp;return to normal traffic conditions, the &nbsp;server still s=
ending OLR eg with &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will consider to no=
 request anymore
 traffic reduction but without being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;sta=
ble (end of overload condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation=
 without traffic reduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nb=
sp; but with a validity duration different from 0.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise =
it has to &nbsp;use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic with th=
e client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled
 per second which should not be throttled.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In additio=
n, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an error case (cf Mcr=
uz mail)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org=
">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you =
for the clarification.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulric=
h, all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The propos=
al was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, si=
nce this could be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Redu=
ction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found th=
is reasonable.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ul=
rich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m confused,</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought =
that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comme=
nt affects as well clause 5.5.2:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This shoul=
d be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the expected b=
ehavior (i.e. it is discarded).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This appro=
ach sounds reasonable to me.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I woul=
d like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0=
 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should
 be discarded by client. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So, here's some proposed text. =
(intentionally ignoring the related discussion about handling invalid value=
s):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 4.5, first paragraph, l=
ast 2 sentences:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Old:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Validity duration values 0 (i.e=
., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid va=
lidity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were =
not present.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">New:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Validity duration values above =
86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if =
the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicate=
s that an existing overload condition
 has ended and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Old:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;The value of the Reductio=
n-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values gre=
ater than 100 are interpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no =
traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under
 a severe load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percen=
tage AVP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatem=
ent algorithm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Note that there is no zero (0) =
value defined for the Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logicall=
y indicate that no overload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting node=
s use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value
 of zero (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Just post it here.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">#45: Why is a validity duration=
 of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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I am OK with Ulrich

JJacques


De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56
=C0 : ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@=
ietf.org list
Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also agree with the principle.

One minor clarification:
0%-reduction with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period can=
not be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence number needs to be stor=
ed for future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for =
future checking.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM
To: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.or=
g> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also tend to agree with JJ below.
Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduc=
tion - which can also indicate end of overload condition.

May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates =
end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually and t=
ogether. So,

-          0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the validity period if reduction is 0.

-          Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.

-          0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, th=
is is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload cond=
ition.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear all

On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity period of =
0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?

In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server still s=
ending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request anymore tra=
ffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be  stable (end of ov=
erload condition as Ben reminded means stable  situation without traffic re=
duction ) , so server  can send 0% reduction OLR  but with a validity durat=
ion different from 0.
Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic wi=
th the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled p=
er second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error case (c=
f Mcruz mail)

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0 : ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am OK with Ulrich<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@ns=
n.com]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JAC=
QUES); dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agree with the pri=
nciple.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One minor clarification:<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">0%-reduction with non-zer=
o validity period is valid but validity period cannot be ignored: as long a=
s not expired the sequence number needs to be stored for
 future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for future=
 checking.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@iet=
f.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I also tend to agree with=
 JJ below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Unless there is a strong =
reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduction &#8211; which can al=
so indicate end of overload condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">May be we can clarify tha=
t 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates end of overload. In my vi=
ew, both are valid for the use, individually and together.
 So,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, non-=
zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the validi=
ty period if reduction is 0.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Non-zero reductio=
n, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the reduct=
ion if validity period is 0.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, 0 va=
lidity period =3D&gt; Valid as well. Generally, this is what the reporting =
node will use to indicate the end of overload condition.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On this ticket, &nbsp;I a=
gree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the Validity period of 0 to=
 indicate the end of overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But about the value of 0%=
 reduction why to forbid it ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the process to &nbsp;r=
eturn to normal traffic conditions, the &nbsp;server still sending OLR eg w=
ith &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will consider to no request anymor=
e traffic reduction
 but without being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;stable (end of overlo=
ad condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation without traffic r=
eduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nbsp; but with a val=
idity duration different from 0.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise it has to &nbsp=
;use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic with the client is 100=
0 request per second this means 10 requests throttled per second
 which should not be throttled.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, we do not ne=
ed to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an error case (cf Mcruz mail)<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org=
">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you for the clarifi=
cation.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich, all,</span><=
span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposal was to use O=
C-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, since this could =
be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Reduction-Percentag=
e =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found this reasonable.<=
/span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><span =
lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, U=
lrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulr=
ich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m con=
fused,</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought that people wer=
e in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span><span lang=3D"=
DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,</span><span lan=
g=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><span =
lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span><span lang=3D"=
DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<span lang=3D"DE">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<span=
 lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<span lan=
g=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<spa=
n lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Hello all,

I think proposal to use just Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly h=
as the intention to simplify and avoid the checks you just listed below.
If we allow both, it means that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and eve=
n with 0% reduction OLR info cannot be deleted until Validity time expires,=
 even we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs sti=
ll to keep Validity timer on for this OLR.
I think this does not provide any added value but simply makes things a bit=
 more complex. What could be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity=
 of a few hours (e.g.)?

Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I am OK with Ulrich

JJacques


De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56
=C0 : ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@=
ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also agree with the principle.

One minor clarification:
0%-reduction with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period can=
not be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence number needs to be stor=
ed for future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for =
future checking.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM
To: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.or=
g> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also tend to agree with JJ below.
Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduc=
tion - which can also indicate end of overload condition.

May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates =
end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually and t=
ogether. So,

-        0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting nod=
e can ignore the validity period if reduction is 0.

-        Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting nod=
e can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.

-        0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, this=
 is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload condit=
ion.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear all

On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity period of =
0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?

In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server still s=
ending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request anymore tra=
ffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be  stable (end of ov=
erload condition as Ben reminded means stable  situation without traffic re=
duction ) , so server  can send 0% reduction OLR  but with a validity durat=
ion different from 0.
Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic wi=
th the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled p=
er second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error case (c=
f Mcruz mail)

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0 : ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think proposal to use j=
ust Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly has the intention to simpl=
ify and avoid the checks you just listed below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If we allow both, it mean=
s that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and even with 0% reduction OLR i=
nfo cannot be deleted until Validity time expires, even
 we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs still to=
 keep Validity timer on for this OLR.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think this does not pro=
vide any added value but simply makes things a bit more complex. What could=
 be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity of a
 few hours (e.g.)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am OK with Ulrich</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulri=
ch.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JAC=
QUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">
dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agree with the pri=
nciple.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One minor clarification:<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">0%-reduction with non-zer=
o validity period is valid but validity period cannot be ignored: as long a=
s not expired the sequence number needs to be stored for
 future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for future=
 checking.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@iet=
f.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I also tend to agree with=
 JJ below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Unless there is a strong =
reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduction &#8211; which can al=
so indicate end of overload condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">May be we can clarify tha=
t 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates end of overload. In my vi=
ew, both are valid for the use, individually and together.
 So,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, non-=
zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the validi=
ty period if reduction is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Non-zero reductio=
n, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the reduct=
ion if validity period is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, 0 va=
lidity period =3D&gt; Valid as well. Generally, this is what the reporting =
node will use to indicate the end of overload condition.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On this ticket, &nbsp;I a=
gree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the Validity period of 0 to=
 indicate the end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But about the value of 0%=
 reduction why to forbid it ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the process to &nbsp;r=
eturn to normal traffic conditions, the &nbsp;server still sending OLR eg w=
ith &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will consider to no request anymor=
e traffic reduction
 but without being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;stable (end of overlo=
ad condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation without traffic r=
eduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nbsp; but with a val=
idity duration different from 0.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise it has to &nbsp=
;use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic with the client is 100=
0 request per second this means 10 requests throttled per second
 which should not be throttled.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, we do not ne=
ed to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an error case (cf Mcruz mail)</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org=
">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you for the clarifi=
cation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich, all,</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposal was to use O=
C-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, since this could =
be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Reduction-Percentag=
e =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found this reasonable.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, U=
lrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulr=
ich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m con=
fused,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought that people wer=
e in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Hi MCruz

AS  Ben proposed, and I agree,   value of zero (0) for the Validity period =
indicates that an existing overload condition has ended and that the report=
ing node is in a stable condition.
An important word is "stable".

When the traffic peak on client side having created the overload decreases,=
   the reporting node progressively diminishes the % traffic reduction in O=
LRs it sends  towards clients taking care to minimize the possible oscillat=
ions. At a certain time ,  server will consider that it can indicate no tra=
ffic reduction to clients. Then is it stable?  there may be different imple=
mentation dependent  ways for the server to decide the situation is stable;=
  one is to send 0% in OLRs and wait a certain number of seconds (not 24 ho=
urs) to check if situation is stable  and then put the validity timer to 0 =
(or leaves the expiry timer  expire). I do not see why to forbid this  way =
to test the stable condition.

So the end of overload condition, as Ben proposed,  can remain ONLY based o=
n Validity  duration value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the value 0 of the %=
 reduction (so a bit different from Nirav statement, but in line with Ulric=
h comment) . The value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as a po=
ssible  way to check the stability condition .

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 10:56
=C0 : dime@ietf.org list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Hello all,

I think proposal to use just Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly h=
as the intention to simplify and avoid the checks you just listed below.
If we allow both, it means that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and eve=
n with 0% reduction OLR info cannot be deleted until Validity time expires,=
 even we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs sti=
ll to keep Validity timer on for this OLR.
I think this does not provide any added value but simply makes things a bit=
 more complex. What could be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity=
 of a few hours (e.g.)?

Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I am OK with Ulrich

JJacques


De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56
=C0 : ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@=
ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also agree with the principle.

One minor clarification:
0%-reduction with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period can=
not be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence number needs to be stor=
ed for future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for =
future checking.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM
To: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.or=
g> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also tend to agree with JJ below.
Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduc=
tion - which can also indicate end of overload condition.

May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates =
end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually and t=
ogether. So,

-          0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the validity period if reduction is 0.

-          Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.

-          0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, th=
is is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload cond=
ition.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear all

On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity period of =
0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?

In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server still s=
ending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request anymore tra=
ffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be  stable (end of ov=
erload condition as Ben reminded means stable  situation without traffic re=
duction ) , so server  can send 0% reduction OLR  but with a validity durat=
ion different from 0.
Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic wi=
th the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled p=
er second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error case (c=
f Mcruz mail)

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0 : ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">AS &nbsp;Ben proposed, an=
d I agree, &nbsp;&nbsp;value of zero (0) for the Validity period indicates =
that an existing overload condition has ended and that the reporting node
 is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">An important word is &#82=
20;stable&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When the traffic peak on =
client side having created the overload decreases, &nbsp;&nbsp;the reportin=
g node progressively diminishes the % traffic reduction in OLRs it
 sends &nbsp;towards clients taking care to minimize the possible oscillati=
ons. At a certain time , &nbsp;server will consider that it can indicate no=
 traffic reduction to clients. Then is it stable? &nbsp;there may be differ=
ent implementation dependent &nbsp;ways for the server
 to decide the situation is stable; &nbsp;one is to send 0% in OLRs and wai=
t a certain number of seconds (not 24 hours) to check if situation is stabl=
e &nbsp;and then put the validity timer to 0 (or leaves the expiry timer &n=
bsp;expire). I do not see why to forbid this &nbsp;way
 to test the stable condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So the end of overload co=
ndition, as Ben proposed, &nbsp;can remain ONLY based on Validity &nbsp;dur=
ation value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the value 0 of the % reduction
 (so a bit different from Nirav statement, but in line with Ulrich comment)=
 . The value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as a possible &nb=
sp;way to check the stability condition .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 10:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think proposal to use j=
ust Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly has the intention to simpl=
ify and avoid the checks you just listed below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If we allow both, it mean=
s that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and even with 0% reduction OLR i=
nfo cannot be deleted until Validity time expires, even
 we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs still to=
 keep Validity timer on for this OLR.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think this does not pro=
vide any added value but simply makes things a bit more complex. What could=
 be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity of a
 few hours (e.g.)?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am OK with Ulrich</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulri=
ch.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JAC=
QUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">
dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agree with the pri=
nciple.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One minor clarification:<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">0%-reduction with non-zer=
o validity period is valid but validity period cannot be ignored: as long a=
s not expired the sequence number needs to be stored for
 future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for future=
 checking.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@iet=
f.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I also tend to agree with=
 JJ below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Unless there is a strong =
reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduction &#8211; which can al=
so indicate end of overload condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">May be we can clarify tha=
t 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates end of overload. In my vi=
ew, both are valid for the use, individually and together.
 So,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, non-=
zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the validi=
ty period if reduction is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Non-zero reductio=
n, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the reduct=
ion if validity period is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, 0 va=
lidity period =3D&gt; Valid as well. Generally, this is what the reporting =
node will use to indicate the end of overload condition.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On this ticket, &nbsp;I a=
gree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the Validity period of 0 to=
 indicate the end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But about the value of 0%=
 reduction why to forbid it ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the process to &nbsp;r=
eturn to normal traffic conditions, the &nbsp;server still sending OLR eg w=
ith &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will consider to no request anymor=
e traffic reduction
 but without being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;stable (end of overlo=
ad condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation without traffic r=
eduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nbsp; but with a val=
idity duration different from 0.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise it has to &nbsp=
;use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic with the client is 100=
0 request per second this means 10 requests throttled per second
 which should not be throttled.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, we do not ne=
ed to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an error case (cf Mcruz mail)</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org=
">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you for the clarifi=
cation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich, all,</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposal was to use O=
C-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, since this could =
be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Reduction-Percentag=
e =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found this reasonable.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, U=
lrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulr=
ich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m con=
fused,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought that people wer=
e in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Dear JJ,

But...  0% for a reacting node means that it does not need to mitigate traf=
fic, and for a reporting node means it is not expecting any mitigation from=
 this client.
Keeping a Validity duration timer on both reporting and reacting on itself =
does not provide any mechanism to improve stability, or?

Cheers
/MCruz

From: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) [mailto:jean-jacques.trottin@alc=
atel-lucent.com]
Sent: jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 11:43
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Hi MCruz

AS  Ben proposed, and I agree,   value of zero (0) for the Validity period =
indicates that an existing overload condition has ended and that the report=
ing node is in a stable condition.
An important word is "stable".

When the traffic peak on client side having created the overload decreases,=
   the reporting node progressively diminishes the % traffic reduction in O=
LRs it sends  towards clients taking care to minimize the possible oscillat=
ions. At a certain time ,  server will consider that it can indicate no tra=
ffic reduction to clients. Then is it stable?  there may be different imple=
mentation dependent  ways for the server to decide the situation is stable;=
  one is to send 0% in OLRs and wait a certain number of seconds (not 24 ho=
urs) to check if situation is stable  and then put the validity timer to 0 =
(or leaves the expiry timer  expire). I do not see why to forbid this  way =
to test the stable condition.

So the end of overload condition, as Ben proposed,  can remain ONLY based o=
n Validity  duration value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the value 0 of the %=
 reduction (so a bit different from Nirav statement, but in line with Ulric=
h comment) . The value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as a po=
ssible  way to check the stability condition .

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 10:56
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Hello all,

I think proposal to use just Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly h=
as the intention to simplify and avoid the checks you just listed below.
If we allow both, it means that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and eve=
n with 0% reduction OLR info cannot be deleted until Validity time expires,=
 even we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs sti=
ll to keep Validity timer on for this OLR.
I think this does not provide any added value but simply makes things a bit=
 more complex. What could be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity=
 of a few hours (e.g.)?

Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I am OK with Ulrich

JJacques


De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56
=C0 : ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@=
ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also agree with the principle.

One minor clarification:
0%-reduction with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period can=
not be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence number needs to be stor=
ed for future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for =
future checking.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM
To: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.or=
g> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also tend to agree with JJ below.
Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduc=
tion - which can also indicate end of overload condition.

May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates =
end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually and t=
ogether. So,

-        0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting nod=
e can ignore the validity period if reduction is 0.

-        Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting nod=
e can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.

-        0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, this=
 is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload condit=
ion.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear all

On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity period of =
0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?

In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server still s=
ending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request anymore tra=
ffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be  stable (end of ov=
erload condition as Ben reminded means stable  situation without traffic re=
duction ) , so server  can send 0% reduction OLR  but with a validity durat=
ion different from 0.
Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic wi=
th the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled p=
er second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error case (c=
f Mcruz mail)

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0 : ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear JJ,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But&#8230;&nbsp; 0% for a=
 reacting node means that it does not need to mitigate traffic, and for a r=
eporting node means it is not expecting any mitigation from this client.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Keeping a Validity durati=
on timer on both reporting and reacting on itself does not provide any mech=
anism to improve stability, or?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> TROTTIN,=
 JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) [mailto:jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.co=
m]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 11:43<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">AS &nbsp;Ben proposed, an=
d I agree, &nbsp;&nbsp;value of zero (0) for the Validity period indicates =
that an existing overload condition has ended and that the reporting node
 is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">An important word is &#82=
20;stable&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When the traffic peak on =
client side having created the overload decreases, &nbsp;&nbsp;the reportin=
g node progressively diminishes the % traffic reduction in OLRs it
 sends &nbsp;towards clients taking care to minimize the possible oscillati=
ons. At a certain time , &nbsp;server will consider that it can indicate no=
 traffic reduction to clients. Then is it stable? &nbsp;there may be differ=
ent implementation dependent &nbsp;ways for the server
 to decide the situation is stable; &nbsp;one is to send 0% in OLRs and wai=
t a certain number of seconds (not 24 hours) to check if situation is stabl=
e &nbsp;and then put the validity timer to 0 (or leaves the expiry timer &n=
bsp;expire). I do not see why to forbid this &nbsp;way
 to test the stable condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So the end of overload co=
ndition, as Ben proposed, &nbsp;can remain ONLY based on Validity &nbsp;dur=
ation value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the value 0 of the % reduction
 (so a bit different from Nirav statement, but in line with Ulrich comment)=
 . The value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as a possible &nb=
sp;way to check the stability condition .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 10:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<b=
r>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think proposal to use j=
ust Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly has the intention to simpl=
ify and avoid the checks you just listed below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If we allow both, it mean=
s that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and even with 0% reduction OLR i=
nfo cannot be deleted until Validity time expires, even
 we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs still to=
 keep Validity timer on for this OLR.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think this does not pro=
vide any added value but simply makes things a bit more complex. What could=
 be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity of a
 few hours (e.g.)?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am OK with Ulrich</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulri=
ch.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JAC=
QUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">
dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agree with the pri=
nciple.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One minor clarification:<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">0%-reduction with non-zer=
o validity period is valid but validity period cannot be ignored: as long a=
s not expired the sequence number needs to be stored for
 future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for future=
 checking.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@iet=
f.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I also tend to agree with=
 JJ below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Unless there is a strong =
reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduction &#8211; which can al=
so indicate end of overload condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">May be we can clarify tha=
t 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates end of overload. In my vi=
ew, both are valid for the use, individually and together.
 So,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, non-=
zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the validi=
ty period if reduction is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Non-zero reductio=
n, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the reduct=
ion if validity period is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, 0 va=
lidity period =3D&gt; Valid as well. Generally, this is what the reporting =
node will use to indicate the end of overload condition.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On this ticket, &nbsp;I a=
gree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the Validity period of 0 to=
 indicate the end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But about the value of 0%=
 reduction why to forbid it ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the process to &nbsp;r=
eturn to normal traffic conditions, the &nbsp;server still sending OLR eg w=
ith &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will consider to no request anymor=
e traffic reduction
 but without being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;stable (end of overlo=
ad condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation without traffic r=
eduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nbsp; but with a val=
idity duration different from 0.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise it has to &nbsp=
;use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic with the client is 100=
0 request per second this means 10 requests throttled per second
 which should not be throttled.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, we do not ne=
ed to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an error case (cf Mcruz mail)</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org=
">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you for the clarifi=
cation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich, all,</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposal was to use O=
C-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, since this could =
be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Reduction-Percentag=
e =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found this reasonable.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, U=
lrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulr=
ich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m con=
fused,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought that people wer=
e in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:05:24 +0200
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To: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
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Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there
because at the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry
on every extra AVP ;-)

I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value
just like it is now. We have the same for the reduction
percentage and the validity time as well.

- Jouni

On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" =
<jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

> Hi Mcruz
>=20
> The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is of =
type Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference.=20
> We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where =
statistically the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped =
OLR-AVP containing a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a =
small optimization.
>=20
> Best regards
>=20
> JJacques=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
lionel.morand@orange.com
> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:46
> =C0 : dime@ietf.org; maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>=20
> Hi Maria Cruz,
>=20
> I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?
>=20
> So instead of:
>=20
>   OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>              < OC-Sequence-Number >
>              [ OC-Report-Type ]
>              [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>              [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>            * [ AVP ]
>=20
> You would prefer:
>=20
>   OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>              < OC-Sequence-Number >
>              { OC-Report-Type }
>              [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>              [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>            * [ AVP ]
>=20
> And I'm fine with this proposal.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue =
tracker Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:26 =C0 : =
maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com Cc : dime@ietf.org Objet : [Dime] =
[dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>=20
> #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>=20
> Now in chapter 4.6:
>=20
>    The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
>    report).
>=20
> This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise =
that  we define this AVP as mandatory.
>=20
> --=20
> =
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------+---
> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>     Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>                                               |   Keywords:
> =
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------+---
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
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>=20
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>=20
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>=20
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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--_000_087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209774836ESESSMB101erics_--


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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JJ,

Why does the reacting node need to send a reduction percentage of zero
to determine if it is stable?  Can't the reacting node just do its
normal checking for overload after sending the validity period of zero? 
If it finds the need for reduction of traffic, it can just send a new
overload report.

Steve

On 2/13/14 4:43 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
>
> Hi MCruz
>
>  
>
> AS  Ben proposed, and I agree,   value of zero (0) for the Validity
> period indicates that an existing overload condition has ended and
> that the reporting node is in a stable condition.
>
> An important word is "stable".
>
>  
>
> When the traffic peak on client side having created the overload
> decreases,   the reporting node progressively diminishes the % traffic
> reduction in OLRs it sends  towards clients taking care to minimize
> the possible oscillations. At a certain time ,  server will consider
> that it can indicate no traffic reduction to clients. Then is it
> stable?  there may be different implementation dependent  ways for the
> server to decide the situation is stable;  one is to send 0% in OLRs
> and wait a certain number of seconds (not 24 hours) to check if
> situation is stable  and then put the validity timer to 0 (or leaves
> the expiry timer  expire). I do not see why to forbid this  way to
> test the stable condition.
>
>  
>
> So the end of overload condition, as Ben proposed,  can remain ONLY
> based on Validity  duration value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the
> value 0 of the % reduction (so a bit different from Nirav statement,
> but in line with Ulrich comment) . The value 0% of the traffic
> reduction is not forbidden as a possible  way to check the stability
> condition .
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
>  
>
> JJacques
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Maria Cruz
> Bartolome
> *Envoyé :* jeudi 13 février 2014 10:56
> *À :* dime@ietf.org list
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> Hello all,
>
>  
>
> I think proposal to use just Validity-Duration=0 to end overload
> mainly has the intention to simplify and avoid the checks you just
> listed below.
>
> If we allow both, it means that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid,
> and even with 0% reduction OLR info cannot be deleted until Validity
> time expires, even we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the
> reporting needs still to keep Validity timer on for this OLR.
>
> I think this does not provide any added value but simply makes things
> a bit more complex. What could be the reason to keep 0% reduction but
> a Validity of a few hours (e.g.)?
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *TROTTIN,
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> *Sent:* jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> I am OK with Ulrich
>
>  
>
> JJacques
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *De :*Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
> *Envoyé :* jeudi 13 février 2014 09:56
> *À :* ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES);
> dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Objet :* RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> I also agree with the principle.
>
>  
>
> One minor clarification:
>
> 0%-reduction with non-zero validity period is valid but validity
> period cannot be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence number
> needs to be stored for future checking; once expired, sequence number
> must not be used for future checking.
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Nirav
> Salot (nsalot)
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM
> *To:* TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
> <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> I also tend to agree with JJ below.
>
> Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0%
> reduction -- which can also indicate end of overload condition.
>
>  
>
> May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period
> indicates end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use,
> individually and together. So,
>
> -          0 reduction, non-zero validity period => Valid. The
> reacting node can ignore the validity period if reduction is 0.
>
> -          Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period => Valid. The
> reacting node can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.
>
> -          0 reduction, 0 validity period => Valid as well. Generally,
> this is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end of
> overload condition.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> Nirav.
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *TROTTIN,
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> Dear all
>
>  
>
> On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity
> period of 0 to indicate the end of overload.
>
> But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?
>
>  
>
> In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server
> still sending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request
> anymore traffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be
>  stable (end of overload condition as Ben reminded means stable
>  situation without traffic reduction ) , so server  can send 0%
> reduction OLR  but with a validity duration different from 0.
>
> Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if
> traffic with the client is 1000 request per second this means 10
> requests throttled per second which should not be throttled.
>
> In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error
> case (cf Mcruz mail)
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
>  
>
> JJacques
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Wiehe,
> Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 12 février 2014 10:22
> *À :* ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> Thank you for the clarification.
>
> I agree.
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Maria
> Cruz Bartolome
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> Dear Ulrich, all,
>
>  
>
> The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =0 to indicate end of
> overload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
>
> Then, Reduction-Percentage = 0 should be considered as invalid.
>
> I found this reasonable.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
> *Sent:* miércoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
> *To:* Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Subject:* RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> I'm confused,
>
>  
>
> I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of
> overload.
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Maria
> Cruz Bartolome
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> Ben, all,
>
>  
>
> This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:
>
>  
>
>    value == 0
>
>  
>
>       Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
>
>       reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
>
>       procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).
>
>  
>
> This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is
> the expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Maria Cruz
> Bartolome
> *Sent:* martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> Ben,
>
>  
>
> This approach sounds reasonable to me.
>
> But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a
> Reduction-Percentage=0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I
> presume it should be discarded by client.
>
>  
>
> Regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ben Campbell
> *Sent:* martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
> *To:* Jouni Korhonen
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list;
> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> <mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0
> disallowed?
>
>  
>
> So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related
> discussion about handling invalid values):
>
>  
>
> Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:
>
>  
>
> Old:
>
>  
>
> Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24
> hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated
> as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.
>
>  
>
> New:
>
>  
>
> Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid
> validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration
> AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing
> overload condition has ended and that the reporting node is in a
> stable condition.
>
>  
>
> Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:
>
>  
>
> Old:
>
>  
>
>  The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one
> hundred (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The
> value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting
> node is under a severe load and ceases to process any new messages.
> The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be present in an overload report
> that uses the default abatement algorithm.
>
>  
>
>     Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the
>     Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate
>     that no overload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes
>     use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate the
>     end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com
> <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Just post it here.
>
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com
> <mailto:ben@nostrum.com>> wrote:
>
> Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com
> <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Ben,
>
> Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.
>
> - Jouni
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com
> <mailto:ben@nostrum.com>> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com
> <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker
> <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org <mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>>
> wrote:
>
> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>
> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
> sense for all future ones.)
>
>
> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>
>
> I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two
> reasons:
>
> 1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific
> to algorithms that use reduction percentage.)
>
> 2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes
> semantically identical to the expiration of an overload condition.
> This allows a simpler implementation.
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">JJ,<br>
      <br>
      Why does the reacting node need to send a reduction percentage of
      zero to determine if it is stable?&nbsp; Can't the reacting node just
      do its normal checking for overload after sending the validity
      period of zero?&nbsp; If it finds the need for reduction of traffic, it
      can just send a new overload report.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/13/14 4:43 AM, TROTTIN,
      JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
            MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">AS
            &nbsp;Ben proposed, and I agree, &nbsp;&nbsp;value of zero (0) for the
            Validity period indicates that an existing overload
            condition has ended and that the reporting node is in a
            stable condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">An
            important word is &#8220;stable&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When
            the traffic peak on client side having created the overload
            decreases, &nbsp;&nbsp;the reporting node progressively diminishes the
            % traffic reduction in OLRs it sends &nbsp;towards clients taking
            care to minimize the possible oscillations. At a certain
            time , &nbsp;server will consider that it can indicate no traffic
            reduction to clients. Then is it stable? &nbsp;there may be
            different implementation dependent &nbsp;ways for the server to
            decide the situation is stable; &nbsp;one is to send 0% in OLRs
            and wait a certain number of seconds (not 24 hours) to check
            if situation is stable &nbsp;and then put the validity timer to 0
            (or leaves the expiry timer &nbsp;expire). I do not see why to
            forbid this &nbsp;way to test the stable condition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So
            the end of overload condition, as Ben proposed, &nbsp;can remain
            ONLY based on Validity &nbsp;duration value 0 (or timer expiry),
            not on the value 0 of the % reduction (so a bit different
            from Nirav statement, but in line with Ulrich comment) . The
            value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as a
            possible &nbsp;way to check the stability condition .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="FR"> DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f&eacute;vrier 2014 10:56<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello
            all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            think proposal to use just Validity-Duration=0 to end
            overload mainly has the intention to simplify and avoid the
            checks you just listed below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If
            we allow both, it means that the case Ulrich mentioned is
            valid, and even with 0% reduction OLR info cannot be deleted
            until Validity time expires, even we could receive a new OLR
            in sequence. Even, the reporting needs still to keep
            Validity timer on for this OLR.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            think this does not provide any added value but simply makes
            things a bit more complex. What could be the reason to keep
            0% reduction but a Validity of a few hours (e.g.)?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES
                (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            am OK with Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="FR"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:56<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN,
                JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">
                  dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            also agree with the principle.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One
            minor clarification:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">0%-reduction
            with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period
            cannot be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence
            number needs to be stored for future checking; once expired,
            sequence number must not be used for future checking.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
                list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I
            also tend to agree with JJ below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Unless
            there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of
            0% reduction &#8211; which can also indicate end of overload
            condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">May
            be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period
            indicates end of overload. In my view, both are valid for
            the use, individually and together. So,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0
            reduction, non-zero validity period =&gt; Valid. The
            reacting node can ignore the validity period if reduction is
            0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Non-zero
            reduction, 0 validity period =&gt; Valid. The reacting node
            can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span
              style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
                &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0
            reduction, 0 validity period =&gt; Valid as well. Generally,
            this is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end
            of overload condition.
          </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES
                (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear
            all
          </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On
            this ticket, &nbsp;I agree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the
            Validity period of 0 to indicate the end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But
            about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
            the process to &nbsp;return to normal traffic conditions, the
            &nbsp;server still sending OLR eg with &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will
            consider to no request anymore traffic reduction but without
            being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;stable (end of overload
            condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation without
            traffic reduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nbsp;
            but with a validity duration different from 0.
          </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise
            it has to &nbsp;use 1% throttling to check stability and if
            traffic with the client is 1000 request per second this
            means 10 requests throttled per second which should not be
            throttled.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
            addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an
            error case (cf Mcruz mail)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
          </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="FR"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f&eacute;vrier 2014 10:22<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
                list<br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank
            you for the clarification.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            agree.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear
            Ulrich, all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The
            proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =0 to indicate
            end of overload, since this could be generally applied to
            any algorithm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then,
            Reduction-Percentage = 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            found this reasonable.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> mi&eacute;rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
                <b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
                list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="DE">I&#8217;m confused,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate
            end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,
            all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This
            comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-before:always"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"
            lang="EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; value == 0</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-before:always"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"
            lang="EN">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-before:always"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"
            lang="EN">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload
            condition and the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-before:always"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"
            lang="EN">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic
            abatement algorithm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-before:always"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"
            lang="EN">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting
            node (or realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This
            should be modified to explain this value is not valid and
            what is the expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This
            approach sounds reasonable to me.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But
            I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a
            Reduction-Percentage=0 is received. This is an invalid
            value, then I presume it should be discarded by client. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
                <b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
                  draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity
                duration of 0 disallowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text.
            (intentionally ignoring the related discussion about
            handling invalid values):<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2
            sentences:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0
            seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used.
            Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the
            OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">New:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST
            NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as
            if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present. A value of
            zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has
            ended and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage
              AVP is between one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values
              greater than 100 are interpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100
              means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node
              is under a severe load and ceases to process any new
              messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be present in
              an overload report that uses the default abatement
              algorithm.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <blockquote
style="margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value
                defined for the Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value
                would logically indicate that no overload abatement is
                requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a
                OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
                the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
          On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it
          here.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does
          that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
          <br>
          On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
          Ben,<br>
          <br>
          Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
          <br>
          - Jouni<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
          On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
          On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;
          wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0
          disallowed?<br>
          <br>
          Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we
          want to<br>
          disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any
          existing overload<br>
          condition without worrying about the semantics of the
          abatement algorithm.<br>
          (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an
          overload<br>
          condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might
          not make<br>
          sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
          Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the
          reason.<br>
          I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method
          ending the<br>
          overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
          I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way,
          for two reasons:<br>
          <br>
          1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is
          specific to algorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
          <br>
          2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition
          becomes semantically identical to the expiration of an
          overload&nbsp;condition. This allows a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          DiME mailing list<br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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I'm ok with the suggestion.

Steve

On 2/13/14 3:01 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>  
>
> I think then we agree on the proposed text:
>
>  
>
> A reporting node MUST ensure that all reacting nodes receive new
> overload reports.
>
> It is recommended that a reporting node include overload reports in
> all answer messages sent to reacting nodes. 
>
> Note - the reporting node may also include the overload report in
> answer messages sent to non reacting nodes if that is more efficient. 
> The overload report will just be ignored by a Diameter node that does
> not support DOIC.
>
> A reporting node MAY choose to not send an overload report to a
> reacting node if it can guarantee that the reacting node already has
> received the overload report.
>
>  
>
> But still there are some discrepancies about the note.
>
> My proposal is to keep it just as an indication of potential (maybe
> not all) situations that should be taken into account if ever any
> implementation may consider to do not follow the recommendation that a
> reporting node include overload reports in all answer messages.
>
> Being a recommendation and not a must, at least I think we need to
> indicate what may imply to do not follow the recommendation.
>
> Then my proposal is the following, that includes a modification to
> last sentence above:
>
>  
>
> A reporting node MAY choose to not send an overload report to a
> reacting node if it can guarantee that this overload report is already
> active in the reacting node.
>
>
> Note --the reporting node may need to take into account network
> deployment and potential errors in order to be able to guarantee that
> sent overload report is active in the reacting node, e.g. there may be
> one or multiple agents in the path between reporting and reacting
> nodes; overload reports may be discarded by reacting nodes...
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *TROTTIN,
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> *Sent:* miércoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 11:13
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> Hi
>
>  
>
> On this topic, my view is that the reacting node shall  receive
> "enough" OLRs per period of time to ensure the efficiency of the
> traffic  reduction mechanism . A way to achieve  the "enough" is to
> have an OLR in all  answer  messages as proposed and this can the
> recommended way. Now as Nirav said, there may be protocol design that
> will behave differently and send "enough" OLRs  but not in all messages.
>
>  
>
> As also Nirav noted,  I do not well see the need to write additional
> notes as many situations can occur and  are not limited to the example
> of the reacting  node  discarding OLRs.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
>  
>
> JJacques
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de*
> lionel.morand@orange.com
> *Envoyé :* mardi 11 février 2014 16:35
> *À :* Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> At least, it is correct! J
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Maria Cruz
> Bartolome
> *Envoyé :* mardi 11 février 2014 15:00
> *À :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> Lionel, Nirav, all,
>
>  
>
> Maybe the note could be modified:
>
>
> Note --the reacting node could be any agent in the path, and that in
> some error situations overload reports may be discarded by reacting nodes.
>
>  
>
> I added the case OLR could be discarded by reacting nodes, since it
> highlights a situation where the server will not know whether or not a
> valid OLR is received by reacting node.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
> [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> *Sent:* martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:36
> *To:* Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> At least, it is not "the only sure way".
>
> For instance, subsequent messages part of the same session (or
> pseudo-session) could also be used as indication for the reporting
> node that the OLR has been received by the reacting node (besides the
> reception of the OC-Supported-Features in the request).
>
> It is why I was saying that this can be fixed per application/system.
>
>  
>
> Lionel
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Maria Cruz
> Bartolome
> *Envoyé :* mardi 11 février 2014 11:31
> *À :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> Fine Nirav, I agree this is implementation specific.
>
> My intention is that any reader realizes what this knowledge in the
> server implies when we talk about agents in the path. This is why I
> think this note is helpful.
>
>  
>
> Regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:26
> *To:* Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> I do not agree regarding the complexity since it is highly
> implementation specific.
>
> Lets not make any assumption in the protocol design.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> Nirav.
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Maria Cruz
> Bartolome
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:54 PM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> Hello,
>
>  
>
> I think it is important to highlight complexity for the server to
>  "guarantee that the reacting node already has received the overload
> report."
>
> I think this is the purpose of the sentence added by Steve.
>
>  
>
> Cheers
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nirav Salot
> (nsalot)
> *Sent:* martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:20
> *To:* lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>;
> Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> I am also fine with Steve's proposed wording to recommend the
> inclusion of OLR but to not mandate it.
>
>  
>
> I am not sure about the following text, if it is absolutely necessary
> to add it.
>
> Note - the only sure way, without proprietary mechanisms, to know that
> a reacting node has received an overload report is when the reacting
> node is a client and there is no agent between the client and the
> reporting node.
>
>  
>
> I prefer to remove it since I do not see as value addition.
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> Nirav.
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
> *lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, February 10, 2014 10:13 PM
> *To:* Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> I'm fine with a recommendation.
>
>  
>
> But I have a general comment: when a MAY or even a SHOULD apply, it
> does not mean that it is NOT up to the node to do or not to do
> something. It does not mean that it is only an implementation option.
>
> For instance, over a given interface, the related specification can
> say that some states are maintained by the server. And it could be
> decided to add some overload related info in such states. For instance
> again, the node can use this state to know if a remote node have been
> notified or not for instance. And in such a case, the server does not
> need to include an OLR in each message. It is just for illustration.
> The point is that you may have some cases for which the OLR in every
> answer might not be required.
>
>  
>
> I agree that having the OLR in every answer is fine... but it should
> be not mandatory in all cases I think. So OK for a "SHOULD" or
> "RECOMMENDED".
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
>  
>
> Lionel
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Steve Donovan
> *Envoyé :* lundi 10 février 2014 17:21
> *À :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Obj**et :*Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info
> AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>  
>
> I agree with both Maria Cruz and Nirav. :-)
>
> I suggest that we have wording saying the recommended approach is to
> include the overload report in all response messages for the reasons
> listed by Maria Cruz. 
>
> I also suggest that we include Nirav's proposal that if a reporting
> node knows that a reacting node has already received an overload
> report then it may choose to not send it again.  I don't think we need
> to including anything about how the reporting node knows but we should
> include wording about networks architectures that make it difficult to
> know.  The case of agents acting as reacting nodes for non supporting
> clients being one example.
>
> We also need to make sure that the recommended approach is not
> precluded by Nirav's proposal.
>
> I propose the following normative wording, which can be supplemented
> by Maria Cruz's reasons for recommending that the overload report is
> always included.
>
> -----
>
> A reporting node MUST ensure that all reacting nodes receive new
> overload reports.
>
> It is recommended that a reporting node include overload reports in
> all answer messages sent to reacting nodes. 
>
> Note - the reporting node may also include the overload report in
> answer messages sent to non reacting nodes if that is more efficient. 
> The overload report will just be ignored by a Diameter node that does
> not support DOIC.
>
> A reporting node MAY choose to not send an overload report to a
> reacting node if it can guarantee that the reacting node already has
> received the overload report.
>
> Note - the only sure way, without proprietary mechanisms, to know that
> a reacting node has received an overload report is when the reacting
> node is a client and there is no agent between the client and the
> reporting node.
>
> On 2/10/14 3:52 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>     Hello Nirav,
>
>      
>
>     Any solution should balance different factors, efficiency could be discussed from different perspectives, but first we need to assure the mechanism we are defining is providing valid OLR to reacting nodes.
>
>      
>
>     Your proposed text  
>
>     " Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP."
>
>      
>
>     If the reporting is not aware about whether or not overload report is provided to the reacting node, and it decides (since it is a "may") to do not send the OLR again, then overload mitigation mechanism will not work in case OLR was not properly received by corresponding potential reacting nodes. And we need to note that "reacting nodes" could be not only the client, but ANY agent used for routing (not only when the agent is providing service to a Realm, but when it is reacting on behalf of a non-supporting client). 
>
>     Then, on one hand it is not simple to know when reacting nodes have valid OLR info (as explained below), but if OLR is not sent again (as per your proposed "may") then one or multiple reacting nodes do not have the required OLR, then overload mitigation will not work.
>
>      
>
>     Therefore, in my opinion, the simplest way to provide required information is to provide OLR in ALL answers.
>
>      
>
>     Best regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com] 
>
>     Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 10:42
>
>     To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     But Maria-Cruz,
>
>      
>
>     How can we say that "including the OLR in all the answer messages is simple and efficient?"
>
>     It is simple for sure but not efficient. 
>
>      
>
>     A slightly different wording from what I proposed earlier is, When the reporting node has a new overload report that needs to be provided to a reacting node (by updating the earlier provided overload report or by providing the overload report for the first time), it shall include OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP, towards the corresponding reacting node. Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
>
>      
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Nirav.
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>     Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:03 PM
>
>     To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     Nirav, all,
>
>      
>
>     I think we should define an accurate and robust solution, as efficient and simple as possible.
>
>     I understand your proposal as a pure "may", but leaving it up to implementation does not assure reacting node has valid OLR information, what is basic for this mechanism to work. 
>
>      
>
>     Best regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]
>
>     Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 10:12
>
>     To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     Maria-Cruz,
>
>      
>
>     I fully agree with you on "sending OLR in ALL answers has some important advantages".
>
>     And we are not trying to prevent it - at least that is my intention. 
>
>     But the main question is, are we trying to prevent any other possible implementation, which may be smarter and can avoid including redundant OLR in all the answer message?
>
>      
>
>     Most probably, the very first implementation of overload control will include OLR in all the answer messages.
>
>     But at the same time, I do not want to restrict the developers which can come up with some nice tweaks and tricks to avoid sending the same information in every message. And this is where we need to be careful and avoid putting such restrictions in protocol definition. 
>
>     What do you think?
>
>      
>
>     This also the reason I was suggesting loose description of when to include OLR (from the reporting node point of view).
>
>      
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Nirav.
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>     Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 8:57 PM
>
>     To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     Hello Ulrich, Nirav,
>
>      
>
>     I agree with Ulrich that the text provided by Nirav is just a MAY, and whether or not the server sends an OLR in all answers shall not be just a MAY.
>
>      
>
>     On the other hand, criteria provided by Ulrich on when OLR has to be sent requires the server has some knowledge:
>
>     a) the reporting node knows that the reacting node has already got the latest OLR
>
>     b) the reporting node is not overloaded (i.d. does not want a throttling) and knows that the reacting node has got an OLR that will soon expire
>
>     c) otherwise
>
>      
>
>     Reporting node must have some knowledge about OLR reception/status in reacting node. How does server acquire this knowledge? 
>
>     Take into account as well that a "reacting" node may be both an Agent (in case it provides service to a realm or acting on behalf of a non-supporting client)  and a Client. In the case of Agents, in fact the Server may not even know if this is going to act as a reacting node or just transparently, in fact, the server does not need to have any knowledge about what agents in the chain to the final Client.
>
>      
>
>     Therefore, I definitely think that sending OLR in ALL answers has some important advantages:
>
>     - state-less implementation (transaction or session) is simpler,
>
>     - the server does not need to determine whether or not to send an OL to a reacting node
>
>     - the server does not need to bother whether an reacting node has already received an OLR or whether this OLR is still valid (has not expired).
>
>     - sending an additional AVP is not processing consuming, in comparison with required above checks (if this is not sent). 
>
>       In fact, in an overload situation, the easiest and least complex is to send information out to all affected/applicable nodes, 
>
>       and the latter should take care to take appropriate actions  
>
>     - more robust solution, as no need to cater for all the checks on the need to send information,  for situations where an answer message is lost,  ...
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Best regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>     Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 10:59
>
>     To: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     Nirav,
>
>      
>
>     I'm afraid your proposed text does not reflect the intention.
>
>      
>
>     "when it wants to provide/update....it shall include..." translates to "...it may include...".
>
>      
>
>     "in other cases" in the given context translates to "when it does not want to provide/update..."
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     We have the following cases:
>
>     a) the reporting node knows that the reacting node has already got the latest OLR
>
>     b) the reporting node is not overloaded (i.d. does not want a throttling) and knows that the reacting node has got an OLR that will soon expire
>
>     c) otherwise
>
>      
>
>     in case a) the reporting node may or may not replay the OLR in case b) the reporting node may or may not upddate the reacting node with the latest OLR in case c) the reporting node MUST include the OLR in the answer (the reporting node does not know whether this is a replay or an update)
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [mailto:nsalot@cisco.com]
>
>     Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:49 PM
>
>     To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich,
>
>      
>
>     It seems we all are on same page but probably the proposed wording below is not the best.
>
>     How about the following.
>
>      
>
>     When the reporting node wants to provide new overload report or wants to update the earlier provided overload report towards a reacting node, it shall include OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP, towards the corresponding reacting node. Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
>
>      
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Nirav.
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
>
>     Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 3:57 PM
>
>     To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; Nirav Salot (nsalot); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     Nirav, Lionel,
>
>      
>
>     I can understand Nirav's concern (although violating REQ10) and hop it is addressed by the modified principle 2':
>
>      
>
>     2'. the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MAY decide not to return an OLR in response to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP if it is aware that the reacting node already has got reasonable overload control information (e.g. the latest OLR, which may be an OLR requesting traffic reduction or an OLR indicating "no overload", or an old  but soon expiring OLR when the reporting node is not overloaded); otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
>
>      
>
>     I don't agree with Lionels do-what-you-want approach. Overload control will not work when we allow the reporting node not to update reacting nodes, which are not (sufficiantly) aware of the current overload status, with up to date OLRs.
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich  
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
>
>     Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 10:20 AM
>
>     To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     -----Message d'origine-----
>
>     De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Nirav Salot (nsalot) Envoyé : jeudi 6 février 2014 10:08 À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich,
>
>      
>
>     I am not sure about forcing this behavior on reporting node "otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP."
>
>     The reporting node may simply not include OLR assuming that the earlier provided OLR will expire and the reacting node will stop throttling the traffic.
>
>      
>
>     [LM] Agree. In other words, it is not deemed required for the default mechanism described in this draft. How and when the reporting node decides to include the OLR in the answer may depend on the application or on the implementation. At least, it is my current understanding.
>
>      
>
>     As we had discussed earlier, there is no need for the reporting node to explicitly stop throttling at each reacting node at the same time. In other words, the reporting node can allow the natural expiry of the OLR to facilitate slow ramp of the signaling traffic towards it.
>
>      
>
>     [LM] Agree
>
>      
>
>     There may be other cases, e.g. when the reporting node knows that the last overload situation ended long time back in the past, there is no need for it to include OLR if currently there is no overload condition.
>
>      
>
>     [LM] Agree
>
>      
>
>     Rest of the principles below are fine with me.
>
>      
>
>     [LM] Agree
>
>      
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Nirav.
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
>
>     Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 2:23 PM
>
>     To: ext Steve Donovan; Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     Actually we seem to agree on two principles:
>
>     1. Lack of OLR means "no change"
>
>     2. the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MAY decide not to return an OLR in response to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP if it is aware that the reacting node already has got the latest OLR (which may be an OLR requesting traffic reduction or an OLR indicating "no overload"); otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.
>
>      
>
>     Can people please confirm.
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>
>     Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:35 PM
>
>     To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     Agreed.  To restate -- lack of an overload report does not change the current overload state for the host or realm.  If there is a currently active overload report then it continues to apply until it either times out or is explicitly changed with a new overload report.  If there is no currently active overload report then lack of an overload report implies there is no overload for the host and realm.
>
>      
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/5/14 9:19 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>
>     I agree with Steve except the part "shouldn't lack of OLR be interpreted as not overloaded?"
>
>      
>
>     We had some discussion sometime back and thought that it is reasonable to not mandate the server to include the OLR in every answer message. E.g. when the server is capable of tracking what is sent to which client and hence wants to avoid sending information which is redundant. But this is optional implementation and at the same time need not be prohibited from protocol point of view.
>
>      
>
>     So basically, the lack of OLR should not affect the previously received OLR at the reacting node. The reacting node can continue to react based on older OLR until the expiry of the validity-period or when the explicit OLR with "0" overload-metric is received.
>
>     In my view, this allows for flexible implementation at the reporting node and sound handling of OLR at the reacting node.
>
>      
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Nirav.
>
>      
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>
>     Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 8:00 PM
>
>     To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     inline
>
>     On 2/5/14 7:57 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>     Ok then let's state that reporting nodes MUST insert an OC-OLR AVP in all answer messages that correspond to request messages which contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP (even when no load reduction is requested).
>
>     SRD> Why in every answer message?  Shouldn't lack of an OLR be interpreted as not overloaded?
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Other criteria like REQ18 or REQ13 do not seem to matter.
>
>     SRD> Requiring an overload report in every answer does directly break REQ13, but requiring an overloaded node to look for an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every message is also substantial additional work, potentially more expensive than inserting OLRs.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     For my clarification: I guess that the reacting node is not required to process every single OLR received (most will be replays anyway). What would be the procedure in the reacting node in order to minimize processing of replayed OLRs and at the same time minimize the risk too miss a new OLR?
>
>     SRD> That is the purpose of the sequence number.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)
>
>     Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:27 AM
>
>     To: lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     I share the same opinion as Lionel.
>
>      
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Nirav.
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
>
>     Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 9:07 PM
>
>     To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     I understand that the real concern is when the reporting node DOES NOT insert the OLR in every answer. 
>
>     So the options would be:
>
>     1- OC-OLR AVP in every answer
>
>     2- OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every request + OC-OLR AVP in some answer when the current throttling performed by the client needs to be updated.
>
>      
>
>     If there is no other criterion, the option 1 seems the best approach.
>
>      
>
>     Lionel
>
>      
>
>     -----Message d'origine-----
>
>     De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>
>     Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:49
>
>     À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>
>     Cc : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Objet : [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>     #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
>
>      
>
>      It has been proposed to define an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP that is  to be included by the reacting DOIC endpoint in request messages that  survived a throttling. This AVP would indicate the Sequence-Number
>
>      (TimeStamp) of the OLR according to which the throttling (which was
>
>      survived) is performed. Absence of this AVP indicates that currently no  throttling is performed.  Reporting DOIC endpoints may use this  information in order to detect whether there is a need to update the  reacting DOIC endpoint with the latest OLR.
>
>      Absence of this feedback mechanism would result in the need for the  reporting node to send OC-OLR AVPs in every answer as the reporting DOIC  endpoint cannot know whether the reacting DOIC endpoint is actually doing  the right thing with regard to throttling/not throttling.
>
>      The feedback mechanism improves robustness as it allows the reporting DOIC  endpoint to detect and correct inappropriate throttling by the reacting  DOIC endpoint (caused by whatever reason).
>
>      The feedback mechanism also allows to address REQ 18 from RFC 7068.
>
>      In summary it is proposed to define the OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP to  be used in request messages that survived a throttling.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
>
>     _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>      
>
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>
>      
>
>     This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>
>     If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>
>     As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
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>     Thank you.
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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>     _______________________________________________
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>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
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>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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>     DiME mailing list
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>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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>  
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>  
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>  
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>  
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>  
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>  
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>  
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I'm ok with the
      suggestion.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/13/14 3:01 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear
            all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            think then we agree on the proposed text:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
            lang="FR">A reporting node MUST ensure that all reacting
            nodes receive new overload reports.<br>
            <br>
            It is recommended that a reporting node include overload
            reports in all answer messages sent to reacting nodes.&nbsp;
            <br>
            <br>
            Note - the reporting node may also include the overload
            report in answer messages sent to non reacting nodes if that
            is more efficient.&nbsp; The overload report will just be ignored
            by a Diameter node that does not support DOIC.<br>
            <br>
            A reporting node MAY choose to not send an overload report
            to a reacting node if it can guarantee that the reacting
            node already has received the overload report.<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
            lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But
            still there are some discrepancies about the note.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My
            proposal is to keep it just as an indication of potential
            (maybe not all) situations that should be taken into account
            if ever any implementation may consider to do not follow the
            recommendation that a reporting node include overload
            reports in all answer messages.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Being
            a recommendation and not a must, at least I think we need to
            indicate what may imply to do not follow the recommendation.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then
            my proposal is the following, that includes a modification
            to last sentence above:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">A
            reporting node MAY choose to not send an overload report to
            a reacting node if it can guarantee that
          </span><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:red">this
            overload report is already active in the reacting node</span><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
            Note &#8211;the reporting node may need to take into account
            network deployment and potential errors in order to be able
            to guarantee that sent overload report is active in the
            reacting node, e.g. there may be one or multiple agents in
            the path between reporting and reacting nodes; overload
            reports may be discarded by reacting nodes&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES
                (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> mi&eacute;rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 11:13<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On
            this topic, my view is that the reacting node shall &nbsp;receive
            &#8220;enough&#8221; OLRs per period of time to ensure the efficiency of
            the traffic &nbsp;reduction mechanism . A way to achieve &nbsp;the
            &#8220;enough&#8221; is to have an OLR in all &nbsp;answer &nbsp;messages as
            proposed and this can the recommended way. Now as Nirav
            said, there may be protocol design that will behave
            differently and send &#8220;enough&#8221; OLRs &nbsp;but not in all messages.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As
            also Nirav noted, &nbsp;I do not well see the need to write
            additional notes as many situations can occur and &nbsp;are not
            limited to the example of the reacting &nbsp;node &nbsp;discarding
            OLRs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="FR"> DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> mardi 11 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:35<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">At
            least, it is correct!
          </span><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="FR"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> mardi 11 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:00<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel,
            Nirav, all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Maybe
            the note could be modified:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
            lang="FR"><br>
            Note &#8211;the reacting node could be any agent in the path, and
            that in some error situations overload reports may be
            discarded by reacting nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
            lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            added the case OLR could be discarded by reacting nodes,
            since it highlights a situation where the server will not
            know whether or not a valid OLR is received by reacting
            node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
                [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:36<br>
                <b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">At
            least, it is not "the only sure way".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For
            instance, subsequent messages part of the same session (or
            pseudo-session) could also be used as indication for the
            reporting node that the OLR has been received by the
            reacting node (besides the reception of the
            OC-Supported-Features in the request).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It
            is why I was saying that this can be fixed per
            application/system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="FR"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> mardi 11 f&eacute;vrier 2014 11:31<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Fine
            Nirav, I agree this is implementation specific.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My
            intention is that any reader realizes what this knowledge in
            the server implies when we talk about agents in the path.
            This is why I think this note is helpful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                Nirav Salot (nsalot) [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:nsalot@cisco.com">mailto:nsalot@cisco.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:26<br>
                <b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I
            do not agree regarding the complexity since it is highly
            implementation specific.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Lets
            not make any assumption in the protocol design.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:54 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            think it is important to highlight complexity for the server
            to &nbsp;&#8220;</span><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
            lang="FR">guarantee that the reacting node already has
            received the overload report.</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8221;
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            think this is the purpose of the sentence added by Steve.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nirav Salot (nsalot)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:20<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>;
                Steve Donovan;
                <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I
            am also fine with Steve's proposed wording to recommend the
            inclusion of OLR but to not mandate it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I
            am not sure about the following text, if it is absolutely
            necessary to add it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
            lang="FR">Note - the only sure way, without proprietary
            mechanisms, to know that a reacting node has received an
            overload report is when the reacting node is a client and
            there is no agent between the client and the reporting node.</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I
            prefer to remove it since I do not see as value addition.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 10, 2014 10:13 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I'm
            fine with a recommendation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But
            I have a general comment: when a MAY or even a SHOULD apply,
            it does not mean that it is NOT up to the node to do or not
            to do something. It does not mean that it is only an
            implementation option.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For
            instance, over a given interface, the related specification
            can say that some states are maintained by the server. And
            it could be decided to add some overload related info in
            such states. For instance again, the node can use this state
            to know if a remote node have been notified or not for
            instance. And in such a case, the server does not need to
            include an OLR in each message. It is just for illustration.
            The point is that you may have some cases for which the OLR
            in every answer might not be required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            agree that having the OLR in every answer is fine&#8230; but it
            should be not mandatory in all cases I think. So OK for a
            "SHOULD" or "RECOMMENDED".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 17:21<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Obj</b></span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="FR">et&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="FR"> Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending
                OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
                survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="FR">I agree with both Maria Cruz and Nirav. :-)<br>
            <br>
            I suggest that we have wording saying the recommended
            approach is to include the overload report in all response
            messages for the reasons listed by Maria Cruz.&nbsp;
            <br>
            <br>
            I also suggest that we include Nirav's proposal that if a
            reporting node knows that a reacting node has already
            received an overload report then it may choose to not send
            it again.&nbsp; I don't think we need to including anything about
            how the reporting node knows but we should include wording
            about networks architectures that make it difficult to
            know.&nbsp; The case of agents acting as reacting nodes for non
            supporting clients being one example.<br>
            <br>
          </span><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Times&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"
            lang="FR">We also need to make sure that the recommended
            approach is not precluded by Nirav's proposal.<br>
            <br>
            I propose the following normative wording, which can be
            supplemented by Maria Cruz's reasons for recommending that
            the overload report is always included.<br>
            <br>
            -----<br>
            <br>
            A reporting node MUST ensure that all reacting nodes receive
            new overload reports.<br>
            <br>
            It is recommended that a reporting node include overload
            reports in all answer messages sent to reacting nodes.&nbsp;
            <br>
            <br>
            Note - the reporting node may also include the overload
            report in answer messages sent to non reacting nodes if that
            is more efficient.&nbsp; The overload report will just be ignored
            by a Diameter node that does not support DOIC.<br>
            <br>
            A reporting node MAY choose to not send an overload report
            to a reacting node if it can guarantee that the reacting
            node already has received the overload report.<br>
            <br>
            Note - the only sure way, without proprietary mechanisms, to
            know that a reacting node has received an overload report is
            when the reacting node is a client and there is no agent
            between the client and the reporting node.</span><span
            lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">On 2/10/14 3:52 AM, Maria
              Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Hello Nirav,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Any solution should balance different factors, efficiency could be discussed from different perspectives, but first we need to assure the mechanism we are defining is providing valid OLR to reacting nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Your proposed text&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">" Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP."<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">If the reporting is not aware about whether or not overload report is provided to the reacting node, and it decides (since it is a "may") to do not send the OLR again, then overload mitigation mechanism will not work in case OLR was not properly received by corresponding potential reacting nodes. And we need to note that "reacting nodes" could be not only the client, but ANY agent used for routing (not only when the agent is providing service to a Realm, but when it is reacting on behalf of a non-supporting client). <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Then, on one hand it is not simple to know when reacting nodes have valid OLR info (as explained below), but if OLR is not sent again (as per your proposed "may") then one or multiple reacting nodes do not have the required OLR, then overload mitigation will not work.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Therefore, in my opinion, the simplest way to provide required information is to provide OLR in ALL answers.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: Nirav Salot (nsalot) [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nsalot@cisco.com">mailto:nsalot@cisco.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 10:42<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">But Maria-Cruz,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">How can we say that "including the OLR in all the answer messages is simple and efficient?"<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">It is simple for sure but not efficient. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">A slightly different wording from what I proposed earlier is, When the reporting node has a new overload report that needs to be provided to a reacting node (by updating the earlier provided overload report or by providing the overload report for the first time), it shall include OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP, towards the corresponding reacting node. Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:03 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Nirav, all,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I think we should define an accurate and robust solution, as efficient and simple as possible.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I understand your proposal as a pure "may", but leaving it up to implementation does not assure reacting node has valid OLR information, what is basic for this mechanism to work. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: Nirav Salot (nsalot) [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nsalot@cisco.com">mailto:nsalot@cisco.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 10:12<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Maria-Cruz,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I fully agree with you on "sending OLR in ALL answers has some important advantages".<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">And we are not trying to prevent it - at least that is my intention. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">But the main question is, are we trying to prevent any other possible implementation, which may be smarter and can avoid including redundant OLR in all the answer message?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Most probably, the very first implementation of overload control will include OLR in all the answer messages.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">But at the same time, I do not want to restrict the developers which can come up with some nice tweaks and tricks to avoid sending the same information in every message. And this is where we need to be careful and avoid putting such restrictions in protocol definition. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">What do you think?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">This also the reason I was suggesting loose description of when to include OLR (from the reporting node point of view).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 8:57 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Hello Ulrich, Nirav,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I agree with Ulrich that the text provided by Nirav is just a MAY, and whether or not the server sends an OLR in all answers shall not be just a MAY.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">On the other hand, criteria provided by Ulrich on when OLR has to be sent requires the server has some knowledge:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">a) the reporting node knows that the reacting node has already got the latest OLR<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">b) the reporting node is not overloaded (i.d. does not want a throttling) and knows that the reacting node has got an OLR that will soon expire<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">c) otherwise<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Reporting node must have some knowledge about OLR reception/status in reacting node. How does server acquire this knowledge? <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Take into account as well that a "reacting" node may be both an Agent (in case it provides service to a realm or acting on behalf of a non-supporting client)&nbsp; and a Client. In the case of Agents, in fact the Server may not even know if this is going to act as a reacting node or just transparently, in fact, the server does not need to have any knowledge about what agents in the chain to the final Client.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Therefore, I definitely think that sending OLR in ALL answers has some important advantages:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">- state-less implementation (transaction or session) is simpler,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">- the server does not need to determine whether or not to send an OL to a reacting node<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">- the server does not need to bother whether an reacting node has already received an OLR or whether this OLR is still valid (has not expired).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">- sending an additional AVP is not processing consuming, in comparison with required above checks (if this is not sent). <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp; In fact, in an overload situation, the easiest and least complex is to send information out to all affected/applicable nodes, <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp; and the latter should take care to take appropriate actions&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">- more robust solution, as no need to cater for all the checks on the need to send information,&nbsp; for situations where an answer message is lost,&nbsp; &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 10:59<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; ext Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Nirav,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I'm afraid your proposed text does not reflect the intention.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">"when it wants to provide/update....it shall include..." translates to "...it may include...".<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">"in other cases" in the given context translates to "when it does not want to provide/update..."<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">We have the following cases:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">a) the reporting node knows that the reacting node has already got the latest OLR<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">b) the reporting node is not overloaded (i.d. does not want a throttling) and knows that the reacting node has got an OLR that will soon expire<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">c) otherwise<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">in case a) the reporting node may or may not replay the OLR in case b) the reporting node may or may not upddate the reacting node with the latest OLR in case c) the reporting node MUST include the OLR in the answer (the reporting node does not know whether this is a replay or an update)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot) [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nsalot@cisco.com">mailto:nsalot@cisco.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:49 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; ext Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">It seems we all are on same page but probably the proposed wording below is not the best.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">How about the following.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">When the reporting node wants to provide new overload report or wants to update the earlier provided overload report towards a reacting node, it shall include OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP, towards the corresponding reacting node. Additionally, in other cases, e.g. when the reporting node is not aware if the overload report is already provided to the reacting node, the reporting node may include the OLR in the response, to the request containing OC-Supported-Feature AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 3:57 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Nirav Salot (nsalot); ext Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Nirav, Lionel,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I can understand Nirav's concern (although violating REQ10) and hop it is addressed by the modified principle 2':<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">2'. the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MAY decide not to return an OLR in response to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP if it is aware that the reacting node already has got reasonable overload control information (e.g. the latest OLR, which may be an OLR requesting traffic reduction or an OLR indicating "no overload", or an old&nbsp; but soon expiring OLR when the reporting node is not overloaded); otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I don't agree with Lionels do-what-you-want approach. Overload control will not work when we allow the reporting node not to update reacting nodes, which are not (sufficiantly) aware of the current overload status, with up to date OLRs.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Ulrich&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: ext <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 10:20 AM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Nirav Salot (nsalot) Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: jeudi 6 f&eacute;vrier 2014 10:08 &Agrave;&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I am not sure about forcing this behavior on reporting node "otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP."<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">The reporting node may simply not include OLR assuming that the earlier provided OLR will expire and the reacting node will stop throttling the traffic.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">[LM] Agree. In other words, it is not deemed required for the default mechanism described in this draft. How and when the reporting node decides to include the OLR in the answer may depend on the application or on the implementation. At least, it is my current understanding.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">As we had discussed earlier, there is no need for the reporting node to explicitly stop throttling at each reacting node at the same time. In other words, the reporting node can allow the natural expiry of the OLR to facilitate slow ramp of the signaling traffic towards it.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">[LM] Agree<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">There may be other cases, e.g. when the reporting node knows that the last overload situation ended long time back in the past, there is no need for it to include OLR if currently there is no overload condition.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">[LM] Agree<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Rest of the principles below are fine with me.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">[LM] Agree<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 2:23 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: ext Steve Donovan; Nirav Salot (nsalot); <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Actually we seem to agree on two principles:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">1. Lack of OLR means "no change"<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">2. the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MAY decide not to return an OLR in response to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP if it is aware that the reacting node already has got the latest OLR (which may be an OLR requesting traffic reduction or an OLR indicating "no overload"); otherwise (i.e. if it is not aware...) the reporting node (no matter whether overloaded or not) MUST return an OLR in responses to requests which contained an OC-Supported-Feature AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Can people please confirm.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:35 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: Nirav Salot (nsalot); <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Agreed.&nbsp; To restate -- lack of an overload report does not change the current overload state for the host or realm.&nbsp; If there is a currently active overload report then it continues to apply until it either times out or is explicitly changed with a new overload report.&nbsp; If there is no currently active overload report then lack of an overload report implies there is no overload for the host and realm.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">On 2/5/14 9:19 AM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I agree with Steve except the part "shouldn&#8217;t lack of OLR be interpreted as not overloaded?"<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">We had some discussion sometime back and thought that it is reasonable to not mandate the server to include the OLR in every answer message. E.g. when the server is capable of tracking what is sent to which client and hence wants to avoid sending information which is redundant. But this is optional implementation and at the same time need not be prohibited from protocol point of view.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">So basically, the lack of OLR should not affect the previously received OLR at the reacting node. The reacting node can continue to react based on older OLR until the expiry of the validity-period or when the explicit OLR with "0" overload-metric is received.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">In my view, this allows for flexible implementation at the reporting node and sound handling of OLR at the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 8:00 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">inline<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">On 2/5/14 7:57 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Ok then let's state that reporting nodes MUST insert an OC-OLR AVP in all answer messages that correspond to request messages which contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP (even when no load reduction is requested).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">SRD&gt; Why in every answer message?&nbsp; Shouldn't lack of an OLR be interpreted as not overloaded?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Other criteria like REQ18 or REQ13 do not seem to matter.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">SRD&gt; Requiring an overload report in every answer does directly break REQ13, but requiring an overloaded node to look for an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every message is also substantial additional work, potentially more expensive than inserting OLRs.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">For my clarification: I guess that the reacting node is not required to process every single OLR received (most will be replays anyway). What would be the procedure in the reacting node in order to minimize processing of replayed OLRs and at the same time minimize the risk too miss a new OLR?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">SRD&gt; That is the purpose of the sequence number.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 5:27 AM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I share the same opinion as Lionel.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Nirav.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 9:07 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">I understand that the real concern is when the reporting node DOES NOT insert the OLR in every answer. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">So the options would be:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">1- OC-OLR AVP in every answer<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">2- OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in every request + OC-OLR AVP in some answer when the current throttling performed by the client needs to be updated.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">If there is no other criterion, the option 1 seems the best approach.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Lionel<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">De&nbsp;: dime issue tracker [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:49<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&Agrave;&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Cc&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Objet&nbsp;: [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">#31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"> It has been proposed to define an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP that is&nbsp; to be included by the reacting DOIC endpoint in request messages that&nbsp; survived a throttling. This AVP would indicate the Sequence-Number<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"> (TimeStamp) of the OLR according to which the throttling (which was<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"> survived) is performed. Absence of this AVP indicates that currently no&nbsp; throttling is performed.&nbsp; Reporting DOIC endpoints may use this&nbsp; information in order to detect whether there is a need to update the&nbsp; reacting DOIC endpoint with the latest OLR.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"> Absence of this feedback mechanism would result in the need for the&nbsp; reporting node to send OC-OLR AVPs in every answer as the reporting DOIC&nbsp; endpoint cannot know whether the reacting DOIC endpoint is actually doing&nbsp; the right thing with regard to throttling/not throttling.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"> The feedback mechanism improves robustness as it allows the reporting DOIC&nbsp; endpoint to detect and correct inappropriate throttling by the reacting&nbsp; DOIC endpoint (caused by whatever reason).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"> The feedback mechanism also allows to address REQ 18 from RFC 7068.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"> In summary it is proposed to define the OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP to&nbsp; be used in request messages that survived a throttling.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
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          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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        <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="FR">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        <pre><span lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not	letting	overload reports expire
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JJ,

I thought we already had wording in the draft about the reacting node
gradually increasing traffic sent to the host after the end of an
overload condition.  This would apply both when the reporting node
explicitly ends the overload period and when the validation timer expires.

Does this cover your concern?

Steve

On 2/12/14 1:30 PM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
> Dear all
>
> I come back on this ticket and your current conclusions;
> We are in the area of guidance about the use of the expiry timer  but I think there are important points to take care with the expiry timer :
>
> If a server  sends OLRs with 50% traffic reduction, the client will divide the traffic by two. Then, if the server does not update the expiry timer and leaves  it expire and that traffic conditions have not changed  on client side, the client will stop  throttling  and will double the traffic which  I think the server will worry about. 
>  We need to avoid oscillations, and have a graceful behavior as expressed in the requirements 2 , 3 and 7. In fact the server should  progressively decrease the value of the % reduction in OLRs it sends according to the diminution of the traffic it will observe (due to the decrease of the input traffic coming back to normal conditions  on client side)  This is when server will  send  OLRs with 0% of traffic reduction without generating overload that it can  leave the expiry timer expire and no more send OLRs.
> The other application of the expiry timer is for error or out of sync situations (Ulrich I think mentioned this point)  where the expiry timer acts as a reset of the DOC mechanism but in such a case the server should  expect a sudden increase of traffic from clients generating overload on its side and then enter in the overload control by generating the relevant OLRs . 
>
> So for me the use of expiry timer should be quite limited, the main tool of overload control is the % of reduction put the OLRs and its evolution over time. Ben has mentioned other possibilities in the use of the expiry time, may be, but we have to take care of the ones I mentioned  
>
> So I consider worthwhile to have  some recommendations in the draft on the expiry timer use.
>
> Best regards
>
> JJacques 
>  
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
> Envoyé : mardi 11 février 2014 23:32
> À : Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Cc : dime@ietf.org list
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overload reports expire
>
>
> Fine with me.
>
> - Jouni
>
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> Ben, Nirav,
>>
>> I follow same argumentation.
>> Regards
>> /MCruz
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nirav Salot 
>> (nsalot)
>> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:23
>> To: Ben Campbell; Jouni Korhonen
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting 
>> overload reports expire
>>
>> Ben,
>>
>> I resonate with your thinking below.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Nirav.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
>> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:54 PM
>> To: Jouni Korhonen
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting 
>> overload reports expire
>>
>>
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:16 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My reasoning for explicit termination was that knowing the 
>>> implementation folks they will let overload conditions expire unless advised otherwise.
>>> And having unnecessary stuff hanging around waiting for a cleanup is 
>>> not a good thing in general. But I am open here for other options..
>>>
>> I think it's reasonable to say that a reporting node should terminate an overload condition in a timely manner. But if it's about to expire anyway, then expiration might be just as timely as an explicit report. 
>>
>> And of course, the definition of "timely" is somewhat a matter of policy. For example, I can imagine an deployment that had a large number of clients using fairly short validity durations, and _never_ explicitly signaling an end to an overload condition. This adds a bit of a "slow-start" to the recovery, since different clients will expire the overload condition at different times, and the load will ramp up gradually. I don't see anything wrong with that. Of course, it wouldn't work if one chose long validity durations, or if the signaling of overload to different clients happened in close synchronization.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


--------------050506000105090905090203
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<html>
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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">JJ,<br>
      <br>
      I thought we already had wording in the draft about the reacting
      node gradually increasing traffic sent to the host after the end
      of an overload condition.&nbsp; This would apply both when the
      reporting node explicitly ends the overload period and when the
      validation timer expires.<br>
      <br>
      Does this cover your concern?<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/12/14 1:30 PM, TROTTIN,
      JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D202664816@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Dear all

I come back on this ticket and your current conclusions;
We are in the area of guidance about the use of the expiry timer  but I think there are important points to take care with the expiry timer :

If a server  sends OLRs with 50% traffic reduction, the client will divide the traffic by two. Then, if the server does not update the expiry timer and leaves  it expire and that traffic conditions have not changed  on client side, the client will stop  throttling  and will double the traffic which  I think the server will worry about. 
 We need to avoid oscillations, and have a graceful behavior as expressed in the requirements 2 , 3 and 7. In fact the server should  progressively decrease the value of the % reduction in OLRs it sends according to the diminution of the traffic it will observe (due to the decrease of the input traffic coming back to normal conditions  on client side)  This is when server will  send  OLRs with 0% of traffic reduction without generating overload that it can  leave the expiry timer expire and no more send OLRs.
The other application of the expiry timer is for error or out of sync situations (Ulrich I think mentioned this point)  where the expiry timer acts as a reset of the DOC mechanism but in such a case the server should  expect a sudden increase of traffic from clients generating overload on its side and then enter in the overload control by generating the relevant OLRs . 

So for me the use of expiry timer should be quite limited, the main tool of overload control is the % of reduction put the OLRs and its evolution over time. Ben has mentioned other possibilities in the use of the expiry time, may be, but we have to take care of the ones I mentioned  

So I consider worthwhile to have  some recommendations in the draft on the expiry timer use.

Best regards

JJacques 
 

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: mardi 11 f&eacute;vrier 2014 23:32
&Agrave;&nbsp;: Maria Cruz Bartolome
Cc&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting overload reports expire


Fine with me.

- Jouni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">&lt;maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Ben, Nirav,

I follow same argumentation.
Regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Nirav Salot 
(nsalot)
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:23
To: Ben Campbell; Jouni Korhonen
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting 
overload reports expire

Ben,

I resonate with your thinking below.

Regards,
Nirav.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:54 PM
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #46: Bad normative advice on not letting 
overload reports expire


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:16 AM, Jouni Korhonen <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">&lt;jouni.nospam@gmail.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
My reasoning for explicit termination was that knowing the 
implementation folks they will let overload conditions expire unless advised otherwise.
And having unnecessary stuff hanging around waiting for a cleanup is 
not a good thing in general. But I am open here for other options..

</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
I think it's reasonable to say that a reporting node should terminate an overload condition in a timely manner. But if it's about to expire anyway, then expiration might be just as timely as an explicit report. 

And of course, the definition of "timely" is somewhat a matter of policy. For example, I can imagine an deployment that had a large number of clients using fairly short validity durations, and _never_ explicitly signaling an end to an overload condition. This adds a bit of a "slow-start" to the recovery, since different clients will expire the overload condition at different times, and the load will ramp up gradually. I don't see anything wrong with that. Of course, it wouldn't work if one chose long validity durations, or if the signaling of overload to different clients happened in close synchronization.

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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
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Jouni,

The important thing is to define the properties.  There should be no
harm in giving one suggested implementation.

Steve

On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally
> and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP
> then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less
> mandatory reference..
>
> - Jouni
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> It sounds reasonable to me as well.
>> /MCruz
>>  
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> +1
>> On 2/10/14 7:47 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real requirements for the sequence-number are:
>>  
>> - Globally/eternally unique
>> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by Steve) 
>>  
>> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
>>  
>> Lionel
>>  
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
>> Envoyé : samedi 8 février 2014 11:33
>> À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>>  
>> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
>>  
>> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>>   reason to remember anything about it
>> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based 
>>   on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it 
>>   "globally and eternally unique".
>>  
>> - Jouni
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>>  
>> Steve,
>>  
>> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after OLR expiry.
>> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
>> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 
>>  
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> A couple of things - 
>>  
>> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each reboot.
>>  
>> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 
>>  
>> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.
>>  
>> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
>>  
>> Steve
>>  
>> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
>> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
>>  
>> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
>> but the receicer for any reason receives 
>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
>> The receiver would accept
>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
>> and then silently discards
>> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, .... 
>> with no way to come back to sync.
>>  
>> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>>  
>> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
>> To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
>>  
>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>>  
>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
>> We are not violating anything.
>>  
>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
>>  
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com] 
>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 16:47
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>  
>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>  
>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good way to do this.
>>  
>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>  
>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to mandate a specific semantic.
>>  
>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>  
>> Lionel
>>  
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:34
>> À : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>  
>> Steve
>>  
>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>> I also agree.
>>  
>> Regards,
>> Nirav.
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>  
>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.
>>  
>> Lionel
>>  
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:50
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>    From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>    related or correlated.
>>  
>>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>  
>>  
>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>  
>>  
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>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
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>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Jouni,<br>
      <br>
      The important thing is to define the properties.&nbsp; There should be
      no harm in giving one suggested implementation.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:0D5D9C6F-5233-4987-99C4-A257382917EC@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally
and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP
then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less
mandatory reference..

- Jouni


On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">&lt;maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">It sounds reasonable to me as well.
/MCruz
 
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
+1
On 2/10/14 7:47 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:
I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real requirements for the sequence-number are:
 
- Globally/eternally unique
- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by Steve) 
 
The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
 
Lionel
 
-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy&eacute; : samedi 8 f&eacute;vrier 2014 11:33
&Agrave; : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
 
Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
 
o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
  reason to remember anything about it
o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based 
  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it 
  "globally and eternally unique".
 
- Jouni
 
 
 
On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:
 
Steve,
 
sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after OLR expiry.
This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 
 
 
Ulrich
 
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
A couple of things - 
 
The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each reboot.
 
We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 
 
The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.
 
It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
 
Steve
 
On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
 
Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
but the receicer for any reason receives 
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
The receiver would accept
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
and then silently discards
3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, .... 
with no way to come back to sync.
 
Are we sure that this cannot happen?
 
Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
 
Ulrich
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
To: ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
 
On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:
 
Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
We are not violating anything.
 
Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
 
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Ben Campbell [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>] 
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:47
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
 
"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
 
The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good way to do this.
 
On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:
 
I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to mandate a specific semantic.
 
Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
 
Lionel
 
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:34
&Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
 
Steve
 
On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
I also agree.
 
Regards,
Nirav.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
 
In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.
 
Lionel
 
-----Message d'origine-----
De : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]
Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:50
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
   related or correlated.
 
   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
 
 
With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
 
 
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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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Ulrich,

I agree, we should say must not remember.  Otherwise it will be more
difficult to get back into syncronization.

Steve

On 2/12/14 7:28 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Maybe its worth to explicitly say that "... there is no reason to remember anything about it" includes "no need for reacting nodes to remember sequence numbers of expired OLRs" or even mandate that sequence numbers of expired OLRs must not be remembered by reacting nodes.
> Ulrich
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] 
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 2:48 PM
> To: Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>
> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real requirements for the sequence-number are:
>
> - Globally/eternally unique
> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by Steve) 
>
> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
> Envoyé : samedi 8 février 2014 11:33
> À : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>
>
> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
>
> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>   reason to remember anything about it
> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based 
>   on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it 
>   "globally and eternally unique".
>
> - Jouni
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>  
>> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after OLR expiry.
>> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
>> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 
>>
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> A couple of things - 
>>
>> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each reboot.
>>
>> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 
>>
>> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.
>>
>> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
>> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
>>  
>> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
>> but the receicer for any reason receives 
>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
>> The receiver would accept
>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
>> and then silently discards
>> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, .... 
>> with no way to come back to sync.
>>  
>> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>>  
>> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
>> To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
>>  
>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>>  
>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
>> We are not violating anything.
>>  
>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
>>  
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com] 
>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 16:47
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>  
>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>  
>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good way to do this.
>>  
>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>  
>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to mandate a specific semantic.
>>  
>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>  
>> Lionel
>>  
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:34
>> À : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>  
>> Steve
>>  
>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>> I also agree.
>>  
>> Regards,
>> Nirav.
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>  
>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.
>>  
>> Lionel
>>  
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:50
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>  
>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>    From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>    related or correlated.
>>  
>>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>  
>>  
>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>  
>>  
>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>  
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>  
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>  
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>  
>>  
>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>  
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>  
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
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>> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      I agree, we should say must not remember.&nbsp; Otherwise it will be
      more difficult to get back into syncronization.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/12/14 7:28 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3055@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Maybe its worth to explicitly say that "... there is no reason to remember anything about it" includes "no need for reacting nodes to remember sequence numbers of expired OLRs" or even mandate that sequence numbers of expired OLRs must not be remembered by reacting nodes.
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com</a>] 
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 2:48 PM
To: Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real requirements for the sequence-number are:

- Globally/eternally unique
- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by Steve) 

The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: samedi 8 f&eacute;vrier 2014 11:33
&Agrave;&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR


Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:

o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
  reason to remember anything about it
o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based 
  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it 
  "globally and eternally unique".

- Jouni



On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Steve,
 
sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after OLR expiry.
This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 

 
Ulrich
 
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
A couple of things - 

The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each reboot.

We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any value. 

The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.

It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."

Steve

On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
 
Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
but the receicer for any reason receives 
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... 
The receiver would accept
1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
and then silently discards
3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, .... 
with no way to come back to sync.
 
Are we sure that this cannot happen?
 
Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
 
Ulrich
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
To: ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
 
On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:
 
Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
We are not violating anything.
 
Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
 
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Ben Campbell [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>] 
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:47
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
 
"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
 
The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good way to do this.
 
On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:
 
I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to mandate a specific semantic.
 
Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
 
Lionel
 
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:34
&Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
 
Steve
 
On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
I also agree.
 
Regards,
Nirav.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
 
In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequence-number.
 
Lionel
 
-----Message d'origine-----
De : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]
Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:50
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
 
The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
   related or correlated.
 
   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
 
 
With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
 
 
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</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)

What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed
requests.  I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.

I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of
the realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this
issue.

Steve

On 2/11/14 5:11 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> So are we converging to an agreement here? I could join the
> camp of U/MC/N/L/J..
>
> - Jouni
>
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:52 PM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear all
>>
>> I come back a bit late on this long debate to confirm my position that I share with  Ulrich MCruz Nirav and I think now Lionel and that I again summarize here in these two statements : 
>> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is known
>> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not known (only the Destination realm).
>>
>>> From History, we have started by defining the Host report so to control the traffic towards each server,(our main goal), but we observed a difficulty when the reacting node does not know  the host to which a  request is sent and for this  we introduced the realm report. Annex B1 example in the draft is the use case well illustrating  this approach and  which corresponds to the above statements.
>> Another point which was mentioned, is, for  the reacting node, to keep the throttling based on realm report independent of the throttling based on the host report, this is naturally achieved with the two above statements as we distinguish requests having a destination host from those having not. But if we can apply both reports to the same request, then we need additional rules eg  which report prevails; in the discussion there were also divergence on this point, but we can imagine other rules eg the report that has the highest reduction value prevails, why not in some cases, so a trend to overcomplexify. 
>>
>> For me the two above statements avoid overlapping between the two reports  and are simple to apply, so I keep my preference for these two statements.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> JJacques   
>>
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Envoyé : mardi 11 février 2014 16:31
>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>
>> So now I understand Ulrich, Maria Cruz and JJ comments.
>>
>> "My" proposal would force the servers in the realm to always send an OLR just to say "I'm not overloaded" i.e. with the value 0. That is anyway a possibility.
>> But if we want to avoid that, Realm type must only apply to message without destination host.
>>
>> Lionel
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange.com Envoyé : mardi 11 février 2014 16:25 À : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>
>> Hi Maria Cruz,
>>
>> Actually I've missed this point. Sorry.
>>
>> Lionel
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan Envoyé : mardi 11 février 2014 16:08 À : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>
>>
>> On 2/11/14 8:19 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>>> Lionel,
>>>
>>> About first case:
>>>
>>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm 
>>> traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with 
>>> Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host
>>>
>>> I do not agree on this, since if Destination Host is used, there is no reason to throttle messages if this Host has not provided any OLR.
>> SRD> There is if the reacting node has received an overload report
>> requesting a traffic reduction on the realm.  The server/host does not have visibility of the entire realm. 
>>> This is in line with the example used from the beginning:
>>> ---------
>>> ..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>>> What is wrong with letting the client
>>> -not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to 
>>> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>>> ------------
>>>
>>> And I think this is what JJ commented:
>>> [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, reducing traffic to S1 is wrong.
>> SRD> It isn't reducing traffic to S1.  It is reducing traffic to the realm.
>>> Regards
>>> /MCruz
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
>>> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:57
>>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> Hi maria-cruz,
>>>
>>> JJ agreed on the following approach:
>>>
>>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>>>
>>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic reduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
>>> [JJ] OK
>>>
>>> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm AVP).
>>> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>>>
>>> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm reduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the reacting has received info about both type of overload.
>>>
>>> What is the issue with this approach?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Lionel
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz 
>>> Bartolome Envoyé : mardi 11 février 2014 11:49 À : dime@ietf.org Objet 
>>> : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I agree with JJ:
>>>
>>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>>>
>>> [MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is any applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will be applicable from next request on.
>>> Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether we have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity & applicability.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, 
>>> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
>>> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
>>> To: dime@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> Hi Lionel
>>>
>>> Please see in line
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com] Envoyé 
>>> : lundi 10 février 2014 14:25 À : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES 
>>> (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics 
>>> of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.
>>>
>>> I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:
>>>
>>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.
>>>
>>> - If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic reduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
>>> [JJ] OK
>>>
>>> - If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm AVP).
>>> [JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails
>>>
>>> In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm reduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the reacting has received info about both type of overload.
>>>
>>> Lionel
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, 
>>> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoyé : lundi 10 février 2014 13:56 À : 
>>> dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of 
>>> OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> Dear  all
>>>
>>> I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
>>> - Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is 
>>> known
>>> - Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not known (only the Destination realm).
>>>
>>> I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g about the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm is overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (so no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel comment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 according to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.
>>>
>>> JJacques
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz 
>>> Bartolome Envoyé : vendredi 7 février 2014 17:15 À : dime@ietf.org 
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he provided.
>>> ----
>>> As a summary:
>>> Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent and host type OLRs from the servers.
>>> The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sending/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type requests.
>>> -----
>>>
>>> It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and then it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has been received by Client.
>>> The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plus Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the solution.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> /MCruz
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich 
>>> (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>> Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
>>> To: ext Jouni Korhonen
>>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
>>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>> Cc: ext lionel.morand@orange.com; Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
>>>> What is wrong with letting the client -not throttle host-type 
>>>> requests to S1, -throttle host type request to
>>>> S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
>>> Isn't this what Lionel said below?
>>> <Ulrich> no it is not</Ulrich>
>>> I am OK with Lionel's
>>> "wording" here.
>>>
>>> - Jouni
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext 
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
>>>> To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>>
>>>> I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.
>>>>
>>>> Lioenl
>>>>
>>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan 
>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 5 février 2014 15:56 À : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re:
>>>> [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>>
>>>> It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.
>>>>
>>>> If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.
>>>>
>>>> I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>>> The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
>>>> If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.
>>>>
>>>> Does it make sense?
>>>>
>>>> Lionel
>>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>>>> Envoyé : mardi 4 février 2014 09:55
>>>> À : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>>>> Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>>
>>>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>>>>
>>>> Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests 
>>>> overload treatment of a given report type applies.
>>>> Proposal:
>>>>
>>>>    0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
>>>>       for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
>>>>          matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
>>>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>>>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
>>>>       requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
>>>>       a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
>>>>       b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
>>>>          value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
>>>>          that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>       c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
>>>>          request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
>>>>          Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _____________________________________________________________________
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>>>>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ok, Ok, no reason to gang
      up on me. :-)<br>
      <br>
      What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed
      requests.&nbsp; I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it
      as such.<br>
      <br>
      I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate
      overload of the realm as a whole.&nbsp; I'll enter a new trouble ticket
      to capture this issue.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/14 5:11 PM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:D2D4DD91-8F3D-4C24-9E3A-E2AE3918D468@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
So are we converging to an agreement here? I could join the
camp of U/MC/N/L/J..

- Jouni

On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:52 PM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com">&lt;jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Dear all

I come back a bit late on this long debate to confirm my position that I share with  Ulrich MCruz Nirav and I think now Lionel and that I again summarize here in these two statements : 
- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is known
- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not known (only the Destination realm).

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">From History, we have started by defining the Host report so to control the traffic towards each server,(our main goal), but we observed a difficulty when the reacting node does not know  the host to which a  request is sent and for this  we introduced the realm report. Annex B1 example in the draft is the use case well illustrating  this approach and  which corresponds to the above statements.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Another point which was mentioned, is, for  the reacting node, to keep the throttling based on realm report independent of the throttling based on the host report, this is naturally achieved with the two above statements as we distinguish requests having a destination host from those having not. But if we can apply both reports to the same request, then we need additional rules eg  which report prevails; in the discussion there were also divergence on this point, but we can imagine other rules eg the report that has the highest reduction value prevails, why not in some cases, so a trend to overcomplexify. 

For me the two above statements avoid overlapping between the two reports  and are simple to apply, so I keep my preference for these two statements.

Best regards

JJacques   


-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Envoy&eacute; : mardi 11 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:31
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

So now I understand Ulrich, Maria Cruz and JJ comments.

"My" proposal would force the servers in the realm to always send an OLR just to say "I'm not overloaded" i.e. with the value 0. That is anyway a possibility.
But if we want to avoid that, Realm type must only apply to message without destination host.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> Envoy&eacute; : mardi 11 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:25 &Agrave; : Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi Maria Cruz,

Actually I've missed this point. Sorry.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan Envoy&eacute; : mardi 11 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:08 &Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On 2/11/14 8:19 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">Lionel,

About first case:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm 
traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with 
Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host

I do not agree on this, since if Destination Host is used, there is no reason to throttle messages if this Host has not provided any OLR.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">SRD&gt; There is if the reacting node has received an overload report
requesting a traffic reduction on the realm.  The server/host does not have visibility of the entire realm. 
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">This is in line with the example used from the beginning:
---------
..we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
What is wrong with letting the client
-not throttle host-type requests to S1, -throttle host type request to 
S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
------------

And I think this is what JJ commented:
[JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.

In my opinion, reducing traffic to S1 is wrong.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">SRD&gt; It isn't reducing traffic to S1.  It is reducing traffic to the realm.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
Regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com</a>]
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 11:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi maria-cruz,

JJ agreed on the following approach:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic reduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
[JJ] OK

- If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm AVP).
[JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails

In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm reduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the reacting has received info about both type of overload.

What is the issue with this approach?

Regards,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz 
Bartolome Envoy&eacute; : mardi 11 f&eacute;vrier 2014 11:49 &Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet 
: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hello,
I agree with JJ:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.

[MCruz] And... if the request is sent to a Destination-Host, if there is any applicable OLR, it will be received immediately in the answer, and will be applicable from next request on.
Simple and robust in my opinion. Then, we do not need to evaluate whether we have OLR for Realm and/or Host, and even check their validity &amp; applicability.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, 
JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 15:00
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi Lionel

Please see in line

-----Message d'origine-----
De : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com</a>] Envoy&eacute; 
: lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 14:25 &Agrave; : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES 
(JEAN-JACQUES); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics 
of OC-Report-Type AVP

I disagree and my proposal was somehow misunderstood.

I don't see the issue to have the following sequence:

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for Realm traffic Reduction, apply Realm reduction is for any message, with Destination-Realm and with/without Destination-Host [JJ] there may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so good to try to clarify; coming back to Ulrich example, Host S1 is not overloaded, so reacting node has not received Host reduction OLR for S1. But as there  is a realm reduction, reacting node will reduce traffic with destination Host S1.

- If the reacting node has received an indication only for host traffic reduction, apply host reduction for messages containing a Destination-Host. No reduction for messages with only a Destination-Realm.
[JJ] OK

- If the reacting node has received both an indication for host traffic and for realm traffic reduction, only the realm reduction will apply for messages with only the Destination-Realm AVP and only the host reduction will apply for messages with the Destination-Host AVP (and the Destination-Realm AVP).
[JJ] OK, Host reduction prevails

In other words, as said earlier, the Host reduction prevails over realm reduction when the overloaded host is inside an overloaded realm and the reacting has received info about both type of overload.

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de TROTTIN, 
JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy&eacute; : lundi 10 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:56 &Agrave; : 
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of 
OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear  all

I share Ulrich and MCruz views,
- Host OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is 
known
- Realm OLR based control applies to requests where Destination Host is not known (only the Destination realm).

I think it is simple, otherwise as MCruz indicated it complicates; e.g about the Ulrich's example where the Host S1 is not overloaded but the realm is overloaded. the client will not receive Host OLR reports from host S1 (so no explicit traffic reduction requested by S1), but according to Lionel comment, I understand  client will have to throttle the requests sent to S1 according to realm OLR, so how to avoid this.

JJacques

-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz 
Bartolome Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 7 f&eacute;vrier 2014 17:15 &Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> 
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear all,

I am in favor of the proposal made by Ulrich in the sequence diagram he provided.
----
As a summary:
Consequently the reacting node will receive realm type OLRs from the agent and host type OLRs from the servers.
The received realm type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node when sending/throttling realm type requests; the received host type OLR will be relevant for the reacting node       when sending/throttling host type requests.
-----

It may occur though, that a Client has only received Realm type OLR, and then it has to send a request to one specific host, then the Client will not apply any restriction, but as soon as the response is received back, Client will update Host type OLR.  Same will apply when only Host type OLR has been received by Client.
The alternative will be to always send back from an Agent both Host OLR plus Realm OLR, but I do not think this is necessary and may complicate the solution.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich 
(NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: viernes, 07 de febrero de 2014 14:13
To: ext Jouni Korhonen
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>]
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:21 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>; Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">I better like Lionel's approach, but even that is not ok in the unlikely extreme case where we have two servers in a realm, S1 is not overloaded at all, S2 is 50% overloaded, and the aggregated realm overload is 25%. Why should a client do a 25% throttling when sending host type requests to the not at all overloaded S1?
What is wrong with letting the client -not throttle host-type 
requests to S1, -throttle host type request to
S2 with 50% and -throttle realm type requests wit 25%?
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">Isn't this what Lionel said below?
&lt;Ulrich&gt; no it is not&lt;/Ulrich&gt;
I am OK with Lionel's
"wording" here.

- Jouni

</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">


From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext 
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:14 PM
To: Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I tend to agree except that I would reverse the logic as for the routing principles: the Destination-host takes precedence when present over Destination-Realm. So the realm abatement is applied in any case except if there is an explicit report for the destination-host.

Lioenl

De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan 
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 5 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:56 &Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet : Re:
[Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

It makes more sense to me for a realm report to apply to all requests targeted for that realm, independent the type of request.  This implies that it would apply to requests that also have a Destination-Host specified.

If this is the definition of a realm report then we need to specify the interaction between realm reports and host reports.

I propose that throttling would occur on the realm first and the host second.  If a message targetted for the host is throttled as a result of realm overload then that throttled message would count as part of the reduction needed to address the host overload.  Messages to the host that survive realm abatement would then be candidates for host overload.

Steve

On 2/4/14 11:12 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:
The case "Realm" as described below raises another question: is it prohibited for a realm to only rely on a global overload report for the whole realm, whatever the nodes inside this realm?
If not, only OLR with the report type "realm" would be received by the reacting node. And the reduction indicated in the OLR will apply always for the realm, whatever the presence of Destination-host AVP in the request... except if an explicit report with the type "Host" as been received for this destination-host.

Does it make sense?

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]
Envoy&eacute; : mardi 4 f&eacute;vrier 2014 09:55
&Agrave; : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Text in clause 4.6  does not fully explain to which requests 
overload treatment of a given report type applies.
Proposal:

   0  A host report.  The overload treatment should apply to requests
      for which all of the following conditions are true:
      a) The Destination-Host AVP is present in the request and its value
         matches the value of the Origin-Host AVP of the received message
         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.



   1  A realm report.  The overload treatment should apply to
      requests for which all of the following conditions are true:
      a) The Destination-Host AVP is absent in the request.
      b) The value of the Destination-Realm AVP in the request matches the
         value of the Origin-Realm AVP of the received message
         that contained the OC-OLR AVP.
      c) The value of the Application-ID in the Diameter Header of the
         request matches the value of the Application-ID of the Diameter
         Header of the received message that contained the OC-OLR AVP.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
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Jouni,

Which optimization, defining a default value or Lionel's proposal to
make it a required AVP?

Steve

On 2/13/14 6:05 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there
> because at the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry
> on every extra AVP ;-)
>
> I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value
> just like it is now. We have the same for the reduction
> percentage and the validity time as well.
>
> - Jouni
>
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mcruz
>>
>> The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is of type Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference. 
>> We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where statistically the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped OLR-AVP containing a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a small optimization.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> JJacques 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Envoyé : mercredi 12 février 2014 15:46
>> À : dime@ietf.org; maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>
>> Hi Maria Cruz,
>>
>> I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?
>>
>> So instead of:
>>
>>   OC-OLR ::= < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>              < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>              [ OC-Report-Type ]
>>              [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>              [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>            * [ AVP ]
>>
>> You would prefer:
>>
>>   OC-OLR ::= < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>              < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>              { OC-Report-Type }
>>              [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>              [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>            * [ AVP ]
>>
>> And I'm fine with this proposal.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Lionel
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker Envoyé : mercredi 12 février 2014 15:26 À : maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com Cc : dime@ietf.org Objet : [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>
>> #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>
>> Now in chapter 4.6:
>>
>>    The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
>>    report).
>>
>> This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise that  we define this AVP as mandatory.
>>
>> -- 
>> -----------------------------------------------+------------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>>     Type:  defect                             |  Bartolomé
>> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>>                                               |   Keywords:
>> -----------------------------------------------+------------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Jouni,<br>
      <br>
      Which optimization, defining a default value or Lionel's proposal
      to make it a required AVP?<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/13/14 6:05 AM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:EE7D3FEB-CD2A-45D9-9700-5CCA118D9A14@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there
because at the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry
on every extra AVP ;-)

I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value
just like it is now. We have the same for the reduction
percentage and the validity time as well.

- Jouni

On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com">&lt;jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hi Mcruz

The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is of type Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference. 
We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where statistically the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped OLR-AVP containing a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a small optimization.

Best regards

JJacques 




-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 12 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:46
&Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com</a>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP

Hi Maria Cruz,

I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?

So instead of:

  OC-OLR ::= &lt; AVP Header: TBD2 &gt;
             &lt; OC-Sequence-Number &gt;
             [ OC-Report-Type ]
             [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
             [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
           * [ AVP ]

You would prefer:

  OC-OLR ::= &lt; AVP Header: TBD2 &gt;
             &lt; OC-Sequence-Number &gt;
             { OC-Report-Type }
             [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
             [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
           * [ AVP ]

And I'm fine with this proposal.

Cheers,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de dime issue tracker Envoy&eacute; : mercredi 12 f&eacute;vrier 2014 15:26 &Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com</a> Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP

#54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP

Now in chapter 4.6:

   The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
   report).

This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise that  we define this AVP as mandatory.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
-----------------------------------------------+---
Reporter:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com</a>  |      Owner:  MCruz
    Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom&eacute;
Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
                                              |   Keywords:
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
-----------------------------------------------+---

Ticket URL: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54&gt;</a>
dime <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a>

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_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
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+1
On 2/12/14 7:34 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Thanks Jouni, I didn't realize.
> One more correction added
>
>> Proposal:
>> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce 
>> its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
>> reacting node would send 100 packets to the				<---
>> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
>> 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       <---
>> reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to 
>> the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th 
>> packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try 
>> to recover from it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
> Sent: miércoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 10:36
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>
>
> Fine by me.. though you then need to apply the same change to the rest of this paragraph, not only the first one.
>
> Also, please update this additional concern into the issue tracker issue #52.
>
> - Jouni
>
> On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> Same comment also applies to following paragraph in 5.5.2
>>
>> Now:
>>   0 < value < 100
>>
>>      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
>>      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
>>      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
>>      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
>>      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>>      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
>>      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
>>      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
>>      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
>>      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
>>
>> Proposal:
>> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce 
>> its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
>> reacting node would send 100 packets to the				<---
>> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
>> 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>> 90 packets per second. How the reacting node achieves the "true 
>> reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to 
>> the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th 
>> packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try 
>> to recover from it.
>>
>>
>> We should not specify a rates for the simple loss algorithm. It's up to the implementation how to reduce, but no time unit has to be specified. 
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Sent: miércoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:13
>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous 
>> history
>>
>> #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>>
>> Now (chapter 4.7):
>>    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
>>    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>>    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
>>
>> Proposal:
>> The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32  and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is  requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.
>>
>>
>> The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is  required to consider history of sent information when throttling.
>>
>> --
>> -----------------------------------------------+----------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+--
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>>     Type:  defect                             |  Bartolomé
>> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>>                                               |   Keywords:
>> -----------------------------------------------+----------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+--
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/12/14 7:34 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097745AF@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Thanks Jouni, I didn't realize.
One more correction added

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Proposal:
Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce 
its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
reacting node would send 100 packets to the				&lt;---
reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       &lt;---
reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to 
the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th 
packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try 
to recover from it.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

-----Original Message-----
From: Jouni Korhonen [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] 
Sent: mi&eacute;rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 10:36
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history


Fine by me.. though you then need to apply the same change to the rest of this paragraph, not only the first one.

Also, please update this additional concern into the issue tracker issue #52.

- Jouni

On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">&lt;maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Same comment also applies to following paragraph in 5.5.2

Now:
  0 &lt; value &lt; 100

     Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
     reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
     reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
     reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
     of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
     90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
     reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
     to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
     10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
     logic try to recover from it.0 &lt; value &lt; 100

Proposal:
Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce 
its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
reacting node would send 100 packets to the				&lt;---
reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
90 packets per second. How the reacting node achieves the "true 
reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to 
the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th 
packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try 
to recover from it.


We should not specify a rates for the simple loss algorithm. It's up to the implementation how to reduce, but no time unit has to be specified. 



-----Original Message-----
From: dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]
Sent: mi&eacute;rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:13
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous 
history

#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history

Now (chapter 4.7):
   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.

Proposal:
The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32  and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is  requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.


The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is  required to consider history of sent information when throttling.

--
-----------------------------------------------+----------------------
-----------------------------------------------+--
-----------------------------------------------+---
Reporter:  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com</a>  |      Owner:  MCruz
    Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom&eacute;
Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
                                              |   Keywords:
-----------------------------------------------+----------------------
-----------------------------------------------+--
-----------------------------------------------+---

Ticket URL: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52&gt;</a>
dime <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a>

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</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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This could be addressed by adding the requirement that an
OC-Supported-Features AVP AVP that is inserted by an agent be marked as
such.

Steve

On 2/12/14 6:38 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> The reacting node (when receiving OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer) knows that the corresponding request took a path towards the server on which there is a reporting node (which supports DOIC). It does not know whether this reporting node is the server or an agent and it does not know whether subsequent requests will take the same path or a different path on which there may be no reporting node. 
> Consequently the presence of OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer does not tell you anything usefull on which to base behaviour for subsequent requests targeted to the same server.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56 AM
> To: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>
> Ulrich,
> Thanks for your response, see comments please
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] 
> Sent: miércoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>
> I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.
>
> 1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account by reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
> [MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacting node overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by TR), therefore any 3GPP application that will support new "Overload mitigation" feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its procedures with this objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP "Overload mitigation" feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is very beneficial that the reacting node could identify at any moment whether or not the reporting node supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemented could be potentially different.
>
> 2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP received in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identified by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported by an agent on the path? 
> [MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Regardless the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the reacting node needs to treat "implicit indications" (like TOO_BUSY), expected reaction may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC. This information is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reaction.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>
> I agree with Ben here.
> The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for the reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the reacting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when this server does not support DOIC.
>
> In fact, we have already included this as a requirement  in our 3GPP TR:
>
> 6.3.3	Implicit Overload Indication
> 6.3.3.1	Introduction
> IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of implicit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse networks.
> However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommended that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism under definition, but client handling of such indications is even more important when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
> At least the following indications may be considered:
> -	DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
> Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the receipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Diameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications to define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking into account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
> -	Lack of response:
> In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in the client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each application, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For example, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of messages have not been answered.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> 1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially) 
>> reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.
>> I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge, 
>> but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers 
>> in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I 
>> might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a 
>> higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can 
>> thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement; 
>> where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to 
>> distinguish between
>> a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested, 
>> and
>> b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic 
>> reduction requested</Ulrich>
>>
> At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mixed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _easier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what don't. 
>
> In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, but hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumption about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the difference between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must assume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that some servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">This could be addressed
      by adding the requirement that an OC-Supported-Features AVP AVP
      that is inserted by an agent be marked as such.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
    </font><br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/12/14 6:38 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3009@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">The reacting node (when receiving OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer) knows that the corresponding request took a path towards the server on which there is a reporting node (which supports DOIC). It does not know whether this reporting node is the server or an agent and it does not know whether subsequent requests will take the same path or a different path on which there may be no reporting node. 
Consequently the presence of OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer does not tell you anything usefull on which to base behaviour for subsequent requests targeted to the same server.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

Ulrich,
Thanks for your response, see comments please

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] 
Sent: mi&eacute;rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.

1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account by reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
[MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacting node overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by TR), therefore any 3GPP application that will support new "Overload mitigation" feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its procedures with this objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP "Overload mitigation" feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is very beneficial that the reacting node could identify at any moment whether or not the reporting node supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemented could be potentially different.

2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP received in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identified by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported by an agent on the path? 
[MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Regardless the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the reacting node needs to treat "implicit indications" (like TOO_BUSY), expected reaction may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC. This information is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reaction.


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

I agree with Ben here.
The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for the reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the reacting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when this server does not support DOIC.

In fact, we have already included this as a requirement  in our 3GPP TR:

6.3.3	Implicit Overload Indication
6.3.3.1	Introduction
IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of implicit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse networks.
However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommended that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism under definition, but client handling of such indications is even more important when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
At least the following indications may be considered:
-	DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the receipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Diameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications to define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking into account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
-	Lack of response:
In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in the client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each application, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For example, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of messages have not been answered.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially) 
reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.
I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge, 
but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers 
in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I 
might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a 
higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can 
thus speak for themselves.) &lt;Ulrich&gt;sounds like a new requirement; 
where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to 
distinguish between
a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested, 
and
b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic 
reduction requested&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mixed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _easier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what don't. 

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, but hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumption about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the difference between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must assume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that some servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.

_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

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DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

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DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
Thread-Index: AQHPIb778GZL0FnWy0+sBFi5Rl7mNpqmEXfQgAED7ACAAAkVAP//p7bggABqqgCAASHxgP//nLwwgAAFFKCAAHhxgP//7KfwADO95YAAC3A6AAB8+qLQAA2HuoAADH2UwP//obQAgABsT4CAAAY6AP//PffggAHqb4CAAGRIIP//nb+AgAABVwCAADj8AIAAGrQAgAE4QwCAAX5BAIAAJZDg
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 12:58:23 +0000
Message-ID: <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6D626@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com>
References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F24ACE.6080501@usdonovans.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F25A38.2030408@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B22FB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D64E69@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <29031_1391678397_52F353BD_29031_478_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48CA45@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B233F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D65226@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B24BA@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772389@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68B44@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097726C5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68C65@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772718@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52F8FC53.4070508@usdonovans.com> <8685_1392050573_52F9018D_8685_14082_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497B0A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6978A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772E88@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D697CA@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772EB3@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <4993_1392114947_52F9FD03_4993_223_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E499B60@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920977300C@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <10989_1392132919_52FA4337_10989_2146_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A34E@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026645F9@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209774836@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
In-Reply-To: <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209774836@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:19:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:55:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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--_000_087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209774E01ESESSMB101erics_--


From anders.askerup@hp.com  Thu Feb 13 07:20:40 2014
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From: "Askerup, Anders" <anders.askerup@hp.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
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In addition, there is no such thing as Destination-Server AVP :)
Destination-Server -> Destination-Host
/Anders

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jouni Korhonen
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 4:53 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Cc: ben@nostrum.com; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue


Good point. I would clarify that a server farm could mean both: one with
a single identity and one with multiple identities. The selection is=20
implementation and deployment specific.

- Jouni


On Feb 7, 2014, at 10:37 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org> wrote:

> #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
>=20
> A "server farm" is defined as "A set of Diameter servers that can handle
> any request for a given set of Diameter applications.". This is not
> strictly true. For example, if a request includes a Destination-Server
> AVP, then then in general only that particular server in the farm can
> handle the request.
>=20
> I assume that we don't mean to limit the server farm concept to situation=
s
> where the entire farm is known by a single Diameter-Identity, do we?
>=20
> --=20
> -------------------------+-----------------------------------------------=
--
> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
> Severity:  Active WG    |
>  Document               |
> -------------------------+-----------------------------------------------=
--
>=20
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/38>
> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>=20

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From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Thu Feb 13 05:18:13 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:17:58 +0000
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:04:34 +0000
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References: <066.5325af1f957cc4cc9501e6dda0b50a85@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F24ACE.6080501@usdonovans.com> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6432A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <52F25A38.2030408@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B22FB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D64E69@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <29031_1391678397_52F353BD_29031_478_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E48CA45@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B233F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D65226@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B24BA@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772389@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68B44@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097726C5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D68C65@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772718@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52F8FC53.4070508@usdonovans.com> <8685_1392050573_52F9018D_8685_14082_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E497B0A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6978A@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772E88@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D697CA@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772EB3@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <4993_1392114947_52F9FD03_4993_223_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E499B60@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920977300C@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <10989_1392132919_52FA4337_10989_2146_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A34E@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026645F9@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209774836@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <A9CA33BB78081F478946E4F34BF9AAA014D6D626@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209774C42@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:13:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  Thu Feb 13 08:16:32 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Hi MCruz, Steve

I here  answer Steve and MCruz mails

About Steve, I have not said the reporting "needs" to send a 0% reduction v=
alid
( it is an implementation choice of the reporting node to choose the % valu=
es it puts in OLR), I simply says  to not forbid it.

In an overload condition, a behavior example is that the reporting , by its=
 own logic (not standardised) , determines the % reduction  value it send i=
n OLRs, and then will observe the effect of this OLR in the evolution of th=
e received  traffic that  the reacting has throttled. Reporting will then d=
ecides to keep, increase or decrease the OLR %value .When we come to the en=
d of overload, the reporting still receiving throttled traffic, will consid=
er that it does  not more need to request a % reduction.

-          One way is to send an OLR with validity period to 0 to indicate =
the end of the overload condition, but it does this without having yet rece=
ived unthrottled  traffic that in some case may nevertheless  request to im=
mediately send again an OLR requesting reduction, meaning that reporting, h=
aving terminated  an overload condition, will  immediately restart another =
one. This a way to proceed as Steve described , I do not say it does not wo=
rk

-          The way I describe is that  reporting  sends a 0% value to see t=
he effect of this new value on the traffic it will receive (that will be un=
throttled), before concluding  to the end of the overload , and if neverthe=
less the received unthrottled  traffic still require to send  OLRs,  report=
ing will not conclude to the end of overload condition  and again generate =
OLRs with a non zero % value.

On the reacting, if it receives a 0% value, it simply does nothing,

I remind  I agree with the proposal  that the end of the Overlaod condition=
 is determined by the Value 0 of the Validity period , or the end of the  e=
xpiry timer, but is not linked to the 0%  traffic reduction

Developers, have various possibilities in the  way   to manage the  overloa=
d condition  and the OLRS they send, I think that DOIC should leave flexibi=
lity.

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:16
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

JJ,

Why does the reacting node need to send a reduction percentage of zero to d=
etermine if it is stable?  Can't the reacting node just do its normal check=
ing for overload after sending the validity period of zero?  If it finds th=
e need for reduction of traffic, it can just send a new overload report.

Steve
On 2/13/14 4:43 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
Hi MCruz

AS  Ben proposed, and I agree,   value of zero (0) for the Validity period =
indicates that an existing overload condition has ended and that the report=
ing node is in a stable condition.
An important word is "stable".

When the traffic peak on client side having created the overload decreases,=
   the reporting node progressively diminishes the % traffic reduction in O=
LRs it sends  towards clients taking care to minimize the possible oscillat=
ions. At a certain time ,  server will consider that it can indicate no tra=
ffic reduction to clients. Then is it stable?  there may be different imple=
mentation dependent  ways for the server to decide the situation is stable;=
  one is to send 0% in OLRs and wait a certain number of seconds (not 24 ho=
urs) to check if situation is stable  and then put the validity timer to 0 =
(or leaves the expiry timer  expire). I do not see why to forbid this  way =
to test the stable condition.

So the end of overload condition, as Ben proposed,  can remain ONLY based o=
n Validity  duration value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the value 0 of the %=
 reduction (so a bit different from Nirav statement, but in line with Ulric=
h comment) . The value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as a po=
ssible  way to check the stability condition .

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 10:56
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Hello all,

I think proposal to use just Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly h=
as the intention to simplify and avoid the checks you just listed below.
If we allow both, it means that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and eve=
n with 0% reduction OLR info cannot be deleted until Validity time expires,=
 even we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs sti=
ll to keep Validity timer on for this OLR.
I think this does not provide any added value but simply makes things a bit=
 more complex. What could be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity=
 of a few hours (e.g.)?

Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I am OK with Ulrich

JJacques


De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56
=C0 : ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@=
ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also agree with the principle.

One minor clarification:
0%-reduction with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period can=
not be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence number needs to be stor=
ed for future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for =
future checking.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM
To: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.or=
g> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also tend to agree with JJ below.
Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduc=
tion - which can also indicate end of overload condition.

May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates =
end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually and t=
ogether. So,

-          0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the validity period if reduction is 0.

-          Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting n=
ode can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.

-          0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, th=
is is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload cond=
ition.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear all

On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity period of =
0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?

In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server still s=
ending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request anymore tra=
ffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be  stable (end of ov=
erload condition as Ben reminded means stable  situation without traffic re=
duction ) , so server  can send 0% reduction OLR  but with a validity durat=
ion different from 0.
Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic wi=
th the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled p=
er second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error case (c=
f Mcruz mail)

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0 : ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz, Steve<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I here &nbsp;answer Steve=
 and MCruz mails<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">About Steve, I have not s=
aid the reporting &#8220;needs&#8221; to send a 0% reduction valid<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">( it is an implementation=
 choice of the reporting node to choose the % values it puts in OLR), I sim=
ply says &nbsp;to not forbid it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In an overload condition,=
 a behavior example is that the reporting , by its own logic (not standardi=
sed) , determines the % reduction &nbsp;value it send in OLRs,
 and then will observe the effect of this OLR in the evolution of the recei=
ved &nbsp;traffic that &nbsp;the reacting has throttled. Reporting will the=
n decides to keep, increase or decrease the OLR %value .When we come to the=
 end of overload, the reporting still receiving
 throttled traffic, will consider that it does &nbsp;not more need to reque=
st a % reduction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One way is to sen=
d an OLR with validity period to 0 to indicate the end of the overload cond=
ition, but it does this without having yet received unthrottled
 &nbsp;traffic that in some case may nevertheless &nbsp;request to immediat=
ely send again an OLR requesting reduction, meaning that reporting, having =
terminated &nbsp;an overload condition, will &nbsp;immediately restart anot=
her one. This a way to proceed as Steve described ,
 I do not say it does not work<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The way I describ=
e is that &nbsp;reporting &nbsp;sends a 0% value to see the effect of this =
new value on the traffic it will receive (that will be unthrottled),
 before concluding &nbsp;to the end of the overload , and if nevertheless t=
he received unthrottled &nbsp;traffic still require to send &nbsp;OLRs, &nb=
sp;reporting will not conclude to the end of overload condition &nbsp;and a=
gain generate OLRs with a non zero % value.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On the reacting, if it re=
ceives a 0% value, it simply does nothing,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I remind &nbsp;I agree wi=
th the proposal &nbsp;that the end of the Overlaod condition is determined =
by the Value 0 of the Validity period , or the end of the &nbsp;expiry
 timer, but is not linked to the 0% &nbsp;traffic reduction &nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Developers, have various =
possibilities in the &nbsp;way &nbsp;&nbsp;to manage the &nbsp;overload con=
dition &nbsp;and the OLRS they send, I think that DOIC should leave flexibi=
lity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques &nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bou=
nces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:16<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">JJ,<br>
<br>
Why does the reacting node need to send a reduction percentage of zero to d=
etermine if it is stable?&nbsp; Can't the reacting node just do its normal =
checking for overload after sending the validity period of zero?&nbsp; If i=
t finds the need for reduction of traffic,
 it can just send a new overload report.<br>
<br>
<span lang=3D"FR">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">On 2/13/14 4:43 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-=
JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz</spa=
n><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">AS &nbsp;Ben proposed, an=
d I agree, &nbsp;&nbsp;value of zero (0) for the Validity period indicates =
that an existing overload condition has ended and that the reporting node
 is in a stable condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">An important word is &#82=
20;stable&#8221;.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When the traffic peak on =
client side having created the overload decreases, &nbsp;&nbsp;the reportin=
g node progressively diminishes the % traffic reduction in OLRs it
 sends &nbsp;towards clients taking care to minimize the possible oscillati=
ons. At a certain time , &nbsp;server will consider that it can indicate no=
 traffic reduction to clients. Then is it stable? &nbsp;there may be differ=
ent implementation dependent &nbsp;ways for the server
 to decide the situation is stable; &nbsp;one is to send 0% in OLRs and wai=
t a certain number of seconds (not 24 hours) to check if situation is stabl=
e &nbsp;and then put the validity timer to 0 (or leaves the expiry timer &n=
bsp;expire). I do not see why to forbid this &nbsp;way
 to test the stable condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So the end of overload co=
ndition, as Ben proposed, &nbsp;can remain ONLY based on Validity &nbsp;dur=
ation value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the value 0 of the % reduction
 (so a bit different from Nirav statement, but in line with Ulrich comment)=
 . The value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as a possible &nb=
sp;way to check the stability condition .</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards
</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques</spa=
n><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 10:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<b=
r>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think proposal to use j=
ust Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly has the intention to simpl=
ify and avoid the checks you just listed below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If we allow both, it mean=
s that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and even with 0% reduction OLR i=
nfo cannot be deleted until Validity time expires, even
 we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs still to=
 keep Validity timer on for this OLR.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think this does not pro=
vide any added value but simply makes things a bit more complex. What could=
 be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity of a
 few hours (e.g.)?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am OK with Ulrich</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulri=
ch.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JAC=
QUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">
dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agree with the pri=
nciple.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One minor clarification:<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">0%-reduction with non-zer=
o validity period is valid but validity period cannot be ignored: as long a=
s not expired the sequence number needs to be stored for
 future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for future=
 checking.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@iet=
f.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I also tend to agree with=
 JJ below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Unless there is a strong =
reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduction &#8211; which can al=
so indicate end of overload condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">May be we can clarify tha=
t 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates end of overload. In my vi=
ew, both are valid for the use, individually and together.
 So,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, non-=
zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the validi=
ty period if reduction is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Non-zero reductio=
n, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the reduct=
ion if validity period is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, 0 va=
lidity period =3D&gt; Valid as well. Generally, this is what the reporting =
node will use to indicate the end of overload condition.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On this ticket, &nbsp;I a=
gree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the Validity period of 0 to=
 indicate the end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But about the value of 0%=
 reduction why to forbid it ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the process to &nbsp;r=
eturn to normal traffic conditions, the &nbsp;server still sending OLR eg w=
ith &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will consider to no request anymor=
e traffic reduction
 but without being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;stable (end of overlo=
ad condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation without traffic r=
eduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nbsp; but with a val=
idity duration different from 0.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise it has to &nbsp=
;use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic with the client is 100=
0 request per second this means 10 requests throttled per second
 which should not be throttled.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, we do not ne=
ed to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an error case (cf Mcruz mail)</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<=
/span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org=
">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you for the clarifi=
cation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich, all,</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposal was to use O=
C-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, since this could =
be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Reduction-Percentag=
e =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found this reasonable.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, U=
lrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulr=
ich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m con=
fused,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought that people wer=
e in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From nobody Fri Feb 14 01:09:07 2014
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:08:32 +0100
From: Stefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu>
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Subject: [Dime] New Version Notification for draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
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Hello,

I've just submitted an -00 on a topic that we've been struggling with in
ABFAB recently (but which exists in every EAP-over-AAA scenario, not
limited to ABFAB).

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-winter-radext-populating-eapide=
ntity-00.txt

Abstract:
   There are some subtle considerations for an EAP peer regarding the
   content of the EAP-Response/Identity packet when authenticating with
   EAP to an EAP server.  This document describes two such
   considerations and suggests workarounds to the associated problems.

The issue touches multiple areas and working groups (EAP, EAP methods,
RADIUS, Diameter) so I had to do a guesstimate for a proper home. I
would think radext is the best match, cc'ing abfab and dime, and also
emu even though it's shutting down).

If you recall those in-depth discussions about fixing either EAP methods
to use UTF-8, or why EAP Identity would need to be restrained to UTF-8
even if a method doesn't do it, then yes: the draft is about that.

In ABFAB, we added a ABFAB-specific band-aid sentence to RFC7057:
"Circumstances might require that applications need to perform
conversion of identities from an application specific character set to
UTF-8 or another character set required by a particular EAP method."

Which was enough to get the document through IESG, but this should
better be fixed more generally for every EAP use case; hence this new dra=
ft.

It's short and concise - I'd appreciate if you could give it a read and
comment.

If there's still free time on the agenda, I would also merrily discuss
it in London.

Greetings,

Stefan Winter

P.S.: Don't miss my other submission about an EAP Configuration File
Format, which I've been told to submit to ops-area/opsawg:

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-winter-opsawg-eap-metadata/

Annoucement here:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ops-area/current/msg01114.html

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for
draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 00:43:29 -0800
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Stefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu>, "Stefan Winter"
<stefan.winter@restena.lu>


A new version of I-D, draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Stefan Winter and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity
Revision:	00
Title:		Considerations regarding the correct use of EAP-Response/Identity=

Document date:	2014-02-14
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		6
URL:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-winter-radext-populating-eapide=
ntity-00.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidenti=
ty/
Htmlized:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00


Abstract:
   There are some subtle considerations for an EAP peer regarding the
   content of the EAP-Response/Identity packet when authenticating with
   EAP to an EAP server.  This document describes two such
   considerations and suggests workarounds to the associated problems.





Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat




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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--kcMVN4nVTDgRBdOkJ8plWpnOCckqcg08P--


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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Nirav Salot (nsalot)" <nsalot@cisco.com>, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:22:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttling
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/_lMu9idf5Uy3p-wcmNmzjtgXgHQ
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Hello Jean-Jacques,

I understand your concerns.
However, I think same precautions in the process to return back to a situat=
ion where throttling is not requested, can be achieved without allowing "0%=
".
On one hand, DOIC-enabled reporting node should supervise constantly how re=
ceived  traffic is affecting its overload, in order to be able to request a=
 reduction when required. It should not only be done during the new Validit=
yDuration when 0% was requested.
A part from that, gradual increase of allowed traffic is always possible (w=
ithout 0%), since even reporting node could use 10%... 5%, 3%, 1%.

However, I do not think this subject is critical. 0% could be acceptable by=
 me if you (all) still think this is preferable.

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: viernes, 14 de febrero de 2014 9:46
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Hi MCruz, Steve

I here  answer Steve and MCruz mails

About Steve, I have not said the reporting "needs" to send a 0% reduction v=
alid
( it is an implementation choice of the reporting node to choose the % valu=
es it puts in OLR), I simply says  to not forbid it.

In an overload condition, a behavior example is that the reporting , by its=
 own logic (not standardised) , determines the % reduction  value it send i=
n OLRs, and then will observe the effect of this OLR in the evolution of th=
e received  traffic that  the reacting has throttled. Reporting will then d=
ecides to keep, increase or decrease the OLR %value .When we come to the en=
d of overload, the reporting still receiving throttled traffic, will consid=
er that it does  not more need to request a % reduction.

-        One way is to send an OLR with validity period to 0 to indicate th=
e end of the overload condition, but it does this without having yet receiv=
ed unthrottled  traffic that in some case may nevertheless  request to imme=
diately send again an OLR requesting reduction, meaning that reporting, hav=
ing terminated  an overload condition, will  immediately restart another on=
e. This a way to proceed as Steve described , I do not say it does not work

-        The way I describe is that  reporting  sends a 0% value to see the=
 effect of this new value on the traffic it will receive (that will be unth=
rottled), before concluding  to the end of the overload , and if neverthele=
ss the received unthrottled  traffic still require to send  OLRs,  reportin=
g will not conclude to the end of overload condition  and again generate OL=
Rs with a non zero % value.

On the reacting, if it receives a 0% value, it simply does nothing,

I remind  I agree with the proposal  that the end of the Overlaod condition=
 is determined by the Value 0 of the Validity period , or the end of the  e=
xpiry timer, but is not linked to the 0%  traffic reduction

Developers, have various possibilities in the  way   to manage the  overloa=
d condition  and the OLRS they send, I think that DOIC should leave flexibi=
lity.

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:16
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

JJ,

Why does the reacting node need to send a reduction percentage of zero to d=
etermine if it is stable?  Can't the reacting node just do its normal check=
ing for overload after sending the validity period of zero?  If it finds th=
e need for reduction of traffic, it can just send a new overload report.

Steve
On 2/13/14 4:43 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
Hi MCruz

AS  Ben proposed, and I agree,   value of zero (0) for the Validity period =
indicates that an existing overload condition has ended and that the report=
ing node is in a stable condition.
An important word is "stable".

When the traffic peak on client side having created the overload decreases,=
   the reporting node progressively diminishes the % traffic reduction in O=
LRs it sends  towards clients taking care to minimize the possible oscillat=
ions. At a certain time ,  server will consider that it can indicate no tra=
ffic reduction to clients. Then is it stable?  there may be different imple=
mentation dependent  ways for the server to decide the situation is stable;=
  one is to send 0% in OLRs and wait a certain number of seconds (not 24 ho=
urs) to check if situation is stable  and then put the validity timer to 0 =
(or leaves the expiry timer  expire). I do not see why to forbid this  way =
to test the stable condition.

So the end of overload condition, as Ben proposed,  can remain ONLY based o=
n Validity  duration value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the value 0 of the %=
 reduction (so a bit different from Nirav statement, but in line with Ulric=
h comment) . The value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as a po=
ssible  way to check the stability condition .

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 10:56
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Hello all,

I think proposal to use just Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly h=
as the intention to simplify and avoid the checks you just listed below.
If we allow both, it means that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and eve=
n with 0% reduction OLR info cannot be deleted until Validity time expires,=
 even we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs sti=
ll to keep Validity timer on for this OLR.
I think this does not provide any added value but simply makes things a bit=
 more complex. What could be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity=
 of a few hours (e.g.)?

Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I am OK with Ulrich

JJacques


De : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56
=C0 : ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@=
ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also agree with the principle.

One minor clarification:
0%-reduction with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period can=
not be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence number needs to be stor=
ed for future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for =
future checking.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM
To: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.or=
g> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I also tend to agree with JJ below.
Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduc=
tion - which can also indicate end of overload condition.

May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates =
end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually and t=
ogether. So,

-        0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting nod=
e can ignore the validity period if reduction is 0.

-        Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting nod=
e can ignore the reduction if validity period is 0.

-        0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, this=
 is what the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload condit=
ion.

Regards,
Nirav.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear all

On this ticket,  I agree on Ben's  proposal  to use the Validity period of =
0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?

In the process to  return to normal traffic conditions, the  server still s=
ending OLR eg with  5% reduction    will consider to no request anymore tra=
ffic reduction but without being yet sure if  it will be  stable (end of ov=
erload condition as Ben reminded means stable  situation without traffic re=
duction ) , so server  can send 0% reduction OLR  but with a validity durat=
ion different from 0.
Otherwise it has to  use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic wi=
th the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled p=
er second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction  as an error case (c=
f Mcruz mail)

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0 : ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Dear Ulrich, all,

The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I'm confused,

I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben, all,

This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:

   value =3D=3D 0

      Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
      reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algorithm
      procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).

This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Ben,

This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.

Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.i=
etf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):

Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:

Old:

Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.

New:

Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.

Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:

Old:

 The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hundr=
ed (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The value of 10=
0 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under a sev=
ere load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage A=
VP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatement al=
gorithm.

Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]






On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com>> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:=
jouni.nospam@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org<mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org>> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This allows a sim=
pler implementation.



_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello Jean-Jacques,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I understand your concern=
s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I think same pre=
cautions in the process to return back to a situation where throttling is n=
ot requested, can be achieved without allowing &#8220;0%&#8221;.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On one hand, DOIC-enabled=
 reporting node should supervise constantly how received &nbsp;traffic is a=
ffecting its overload, in order to be able to request a reduction
 when required. It should not only be done during the new ValidityDuration =
when 0% was requested.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A part from that, gradual=
 increase of allowed traffic is always possible (without 0%), since even re=
porting node could use 10%... 5%, 3%, 1%.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I do not think t=
his subject is critical. 0% could be acceptable by me if you (all) still th=
ink this is preferable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> viernes, 14 de febrero de 2014 9:46<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz, Steve<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I here &nbsp;answer Steve=
 and MCruz mails<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">About Steve, I have not s=
aid the reporting &#8220;needs&#8221; to send a 0% reduction valid<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">( it is an implementation=
 choice of the reporting node to choose the % values it puts in OLR), I sim=
ply says &nbsp;to not forbid it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In an overload condition,=
 a behavior example is that the reporting , by its own logic (not standardi=
sed) , determines the % reduction &nbsp;value it send in OLRs,
 and then will observe the effect of this OLR in the evolution of the recei=
ved &nbsp;traffic that &nbsp;the reacting has throttled. Reporting will the=
n decides to keep, increase or decrease the OLR %value .When we come to the=
 end of overload, the reporting still receiving
 throttled traffic, will consider that it does &nbsp;not more need to reque=
st a % reduction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One way is to sen=
d an OLR with validity period to 0 to indicate the end of the overload cond=
ition, but it does this without having yet received unthrottled
 &nbsp;traffic that in some case may nevertheless &nbsp;request to immediat=
ely send again an OLR requesting reduction, meaning that reporting, having =
terminated &nbsp;an overload condition, will &nbsp;immediately restart anot=
her one. This a way to proceed as Steve described ,
 I do not say it does not work<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The way I describ=
e is that &nbsp;reporting &nbsp;sends a 0% value to see the effect of this =
new value on the traffic it will receive (that will be unthrottled),
 before concluding &nbsp;to the end of the overload , and if nevertheless t=
he received unthrottled &nbsp;traffic still require to send &nbsp;OLRs, &nb=
sp;reporting will not conclude to the end of overload condition &nbsp;and a=
gain generate OLRs with a non zero % value.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On the reacting, if it re=
ceives a 0% value, it simply does nothing,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I remind &nbsp;I agree wi=
th the proposal &nbsp;that the end of the Overlaod condition is determined =
by the Value 0 of the Validity period , or the end of the &nbsp;expiry
 timer, but is not linked to the 0% &nbsp;traffic reduction &nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Developers, have various =
possibilities in the &nbsp;way &nbsp;&nbsp;to manage the &nbsp;overload con=
dition &nbsp;and the OLRS they send, I think that DOIC should leave flexibi=
lity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques &nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:16<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">JJ,<br>
<br>
Why does the reacting node need to send a reduction percentage of zero to d=
etermine if it is stable?&nbsp; Can't the reacting node just do its normal =
checking for overload after sending the validity period of zero?&nbsp; If i=
t finds the need for reduction of traffic,
 it can just send a new overload report.<br>
<br>
<span lang=3D"FR">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">On 2/13/14 4:43 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-=
JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz</spa=
n><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">AS &nbsp;Ben proposed, an=
d I agree, &nbsp;&nbsp;value of zero (0) for the Validity period indicates =
that an existing overload condition has ended and that the reporting node
 is in a stable condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">An important word is &#82=
20;stable&#8221;.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When the traffic peak on =
client side having created the overload decreases, &nbsp;&nbsp;the reportin=
g node progressively diminishes the % traffic reduction in OLRs it
 sends &nbsp;towards clients taking care to minimize the possible oscillati=
ons. At a certain time , &nbsp;server will consider that it can indicate no=
 traffic reduction to clients. Then is it stable? &nbsp;there may be differ=
ent implementation dependent &nbsp;ways for the server
 to decide the situation is stable; &nbsp;one is to send 0% in OLRs and wai=
t a certain number of seconds (not 24 hours) to check if situation is stabl=
e &nbsp;and then put the validity timer to 0 (or leaves the expiry timer &n=
bsp;expire). I do not see why to forbid this &nbsp;way
 to test the stable condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So the end of overload co=
ndition, as Ben proposed, &nbsp;can remain ONLY based on Validity &nbsp;dur=
ation value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the value 0 of the % reduction
 (so a bit different from Nirav statement, but in line with Ulrich comment)=
 . The value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as a possible &nb=
sp;way to check the stability condition .</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards
</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques</spa=
n><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 10:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<b=
r>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think proposal to use j=
ust Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly has the intention to simpl=
ify and avoid the checks you just listed below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If we allow both, it mean=
s that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and even with 0% reduction OLR i=
nfo cannot be deleted until Validity time expires, even
 we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs still to=
 keep Validity timer on for this OLR.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think this does not pro=
vide any added value but simply makes things a bit more complex. What could=
 be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity of a
 few hours (e.g.)?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am OK with Ulrich</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulri=
ch.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JAC=
QUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">
dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agree with the pri=
nciple.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One minor clarification:<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">0%-reduction with non-zer=
o validity period is valid but validity period cannot be ignored: as long a=
s not expired the sequence number needs to be stored for
 future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for future=
 checking.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Nirav Salot (nsalot)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@iet=
f.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">I also tend to agree with=
 JJ below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Unless there is a strong =
reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduction &#8211; which can al=
so indicate end of overload condition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">May be we can clarify tha=
t 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates end of overload. In my vi=
ew, both are valid for the use, individually and together.
 So,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, non-=
zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the validi=
ty period if reduction is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Non-zero reductio=
n, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid. The reacting node can ignore the reduct=
ion if validity period is 0.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"f=
ont:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">0 reduction, 0 va=
lidity period =3D&gt; Valid as well. Generally, this is what the reporting =
node will use to indicate the end of overload condition.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">Nirav.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#244061">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear all
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On this ticket, &nbsp;I a=
gree on Ben&#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;to use the Validity period of 0 to=
 indicate the end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But about the value of 0%=
 reduction why to forbid it ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In the process to &nbsp;r=
eturn to normal traffic conditions, the &nbsp;server still sending OLR eg w=
ith &nbsp;5% reduction &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;will consider to no request anymor=
e traffic reduction
 but without being yet sure if &nbsp;it will be &nbsp;stable (end of overlo=
ad condition as Ben reminded means stable &nbsp;situation without traffic r=
eduction ) , so server &nbsp;can send 0% reduction OLR&nbsp; but with a val=
idity duration different from 0.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise it has to &nbsp=
;use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic with the client is 100=
0 request per second this means 10 requests throttled per second
 which should not be throttled.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, we do not ne=
ed to handle the 0% reduction &nbsp;as an error case (cf Mcruz mail)</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<=
/span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org=
">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you for the clarifi=
cation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich, all,</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposal was to use O=
C-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of overload, since this could =
be generally applied to any algorithm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, Reduction-Percentag=
e =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I found this reasonable.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Wiehe, U=
lrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulr=
ich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m con=
fused,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I thought that people wer=
e in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, all,</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This comment affects as w=
ell clause 5.5.2:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; value =3D=3D 0</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and =
the</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement al=
gorithm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span lang=3D"EN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or rea=
lm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This should be modified t=
o explain this value is not valid and what is the expected behavior (i.e. i=
t is discarded).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This approach sounds reas=
onable to me.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I would like to clari=
fy what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. T=
his is an invalid value, then I presume it should be discarded
 by client. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> DiME [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignori=
ng the related discussion about handling invalid values):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and abo=
ve 86400 (i.e., 24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration value=
s are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be use=
d. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Durat=
ion AVP were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing ov=
erload condition has ended and that
 the reporting node is in a stable condition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Old:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is b=
etween one (1) and one hundred (100). &nbsp;Values greater than 100 are int=
erpreted as 100. &nbsp;The value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, =
i.e. the reporting node is under a severe load and
 ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be p=
resent in an overload report that uses the default abatement algorithm.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the=
 Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no ov=
erload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-D=
uration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate
 the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just post it here.<br=
>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Okay. Does that mean =
we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.no=
spam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Ben,<br>
<br>
Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.<br>
<br>
- Jouni<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum=
.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nos=
pam@gmail.com">jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trac&=
#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?<br>
<br>
Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to<br>
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload<b=
r>
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.<=
br>
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload<br>
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make<br>
sense for all future ones.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.<br>
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the<br>
overload condition based on the reasoning above.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons=
:<br>
<br>
1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)<br>
<br>
2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload&nbsp;condition. This allows =
a simpler implementation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Steve,
For my clarification:
Your proposal is to mark OC-Supported-Feature AVPs when inserted to answer =
messages by an agent?

If so, the reacting node can associate unmarked Supported-Features AVPs wit=
h the server (orig-host) and can discard marked Supported-Features AVPs.

Is that understanding correct?

Ulrich


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:01 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

This could be addressed by adding the requirement that an OC-Supported-Feat=
ures AVP AVP that is inserted by an agent be marked as such.

Steve
On 2/12/14 6:38 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

The reacting node (when receiving OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer) k=
nows that the corresponding request took a path towards the server on which=
 there is a reporting node (which supports DOIC). It does not know whether =
this reporting node is the server or an agent and it does not know whether =
subsequent requests will take the same path or a different path on which th=
ere may be no reporting node.

Consequently the presence of OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer does no=
t tell you anything usefull on which to base behaviour for subsequent reque=
sts targeted to the same server.



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56 AM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s



Ulrich,

Thanks for your response, see comments please



Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list

Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s



I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.



1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and =
without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account b=
y reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.

[MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacting no=
de overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by TR), =
therefore any 3GPP application that will support new "Overload mitigation" =
feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its procedures with th=
is objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP "Overload mitigati=
on" feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is very beneficial that the =
reacting node could identify at any moment whether or not the reporting nod=
e supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemented could be potentially di=
fferent.



2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP r=
eceived in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identi=
fied by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported b=
y an agent on the path?

[MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Regardles=
s the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the reacting n=
ode needs to treat "implicit indications" (like TOO_BUSY), expected reactio=
n may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC. This informati=
on is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reaction.





-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s



I agree with Ben here.

The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for th=
e reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the re=
acting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when th=
is server does not support DOIC.



In fact, we have already included this as a requirement  in our 3GPP TR:



6.3.3    Implicit Overload Indication

6.3.3.1  Introduction

IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of impl=
icit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse net=
works.

However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined=
 in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommende=
d that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen=
 even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism u=
nder definition, but client handling of such indications is even more impor=
tant when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.

At least the following indications may be considered:

- DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:

Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the rec=
eipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Di=
ameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications t=
o define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking int=
o account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME =
may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER=
_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.

- Lack of response:

In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any =
Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in th=
e client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each applicati=
on, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For e=
xample, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of m=
essages have not been answered.







-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell

Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s





On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially)

reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.

I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge,

but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers

in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I

might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a

higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can

thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement;

where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to

distinguish between

a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested,

and

b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic

reduction requested</Ulrich>





At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be=
 able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. =
But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mi=
xed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _eas=
ier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what=
 don't.



In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, bu=
t hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumptio=
n about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the differe=
nce between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must as=
sume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that so=
me servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For my clarification:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Your propo=
sal is to mark OC-Supported-Feature AVPs when inserted to answer messages b=
y an agent?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If so, the=
 reacting node can associate unmarked Supported-Features AVPs with the serv=
er (orig-host) and can discard marked Supported-Features AVPs.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Is that un=
derstanding correct?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer =
messages<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">This could be address=
ed by adding the requirement that an OC-Supported-Features AVP AVP that is =
inserted by an agent be marked as such.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/12/14 6:38 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>The reacting node (when receiving OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answ=
er) knows that the corresponding request took a path towards the server on =
which there is a reporting node (which supports DOIC). It does not know whe=
ther this reporting node is the server or an agent and it does not know whe=
ther subsequent requests will take the same path or a different path on whi=
ch there may be no reporting node. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Consequently the presence of OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer do=
es not tell you anything usefull on which to base behaviour for subsequent =
requests targeted to the same server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer me=
ssages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks for your response, see comments please<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.o=
rg</a> list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer me=
ssages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY=
 and without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into acco=
unt by reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacti=
ng node overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by =
TR), therefore any 3GPP application that will support new &quot;Overload mi=
tigation&quot; feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its pro=
cedures with this objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP &qu=
ot;Overload mitigation&quot; feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is =
very beneficial that the reacting node could identify at any moment whether=
 or not the reporting node supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemente=
d could be potentially different.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features =
AVP received in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (i=
dentified by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features suppor=
ted by an agent on the path? <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Rega=
rdless the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the react=
ing node needs to treat &quot;implicit indications&quot; (like TOO_BUSY), e=
xpected reaction may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC.=
 This information is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reac=
tion.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer me=
ssages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I agree with Ben here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant f=
or the reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since t=
he reacting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well wh=
en this server does not support DOIC.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>In fact, we have already included this as a requirement&nbsp; in our 3=
GPP TR:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>6.3.3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Implicit Overload Indication<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>6.3.3.1&nbsp; Introduction<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of=
 implicit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, divers=
e networks.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as de=
fined in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recom=
mended that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may h=
appen even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechan=
ism under definition, but client handling of such indications is even more =
important when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or serve=
r.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>At least the following indications may be considered:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that th=
e receipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect futu=
re Diameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applicati=
ons to define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, takin=
g into account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example,=
 MME may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIA=
METER_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Lack of response:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without=
 any Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions =
in the client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each appl=
ication, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. =
For example, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number=
 of messages have not been answered.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer me=
ssages<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a href=
=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially) <o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge, <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers=
 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I =
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a <o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can=
 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>thus speak for themselves.) &lt;Ulrich&gt;sounds like a new requiremen=
t; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to=
 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>distinguish between<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested, <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic <o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>reduction requested&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node shou=
ld be able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechan=
ism. But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in=
 a mixed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much=
 _easier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and=
 what don't. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOI=
C, but hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assu=
mption about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the di=
fference between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it mu=
st assume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing th=
at some servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloa=
ded.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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FYI


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for
draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01.txt
Date: 	Fri, 14 Feb 2014 06:12:53 -0800
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Steve Donovan
<srdonovan@usdonovans.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Steve Donovan and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload
Revision:	01
Title:		Diameter Agent Overload
Document date:	2014-02-14
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		14
URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01
Diff:           http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01

Abstract:
   This specification documents an extension to the Diameter Overload
   Control (DOC) base solution.  The extension addresses the handling of
   agent overload.

Requirements
                                                                                  


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        cellspacing="0">
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          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Subject:
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            <td>New Version Notification for
              draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01.txt</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
            <td>Fri, 14 Feb 2014 06:12:53 -0800</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">To: </th>
            <td>Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a>, Steve
              Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <pre>A new version of I-D, draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Steve Donovan and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload
Revision:	01
Title:		Diameter Agent Overload
Document date:	2014-02-14
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		14
URL:            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01.txt</a>
Status:         <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload/</a>
Htmlized:       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01</a>
Diff:           <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01</a>

Abstract:
   This specification documents an extension to the Diameter Overload
   Control (DOC) base solution.  The extension addresses the handling of
   agent overload.

Requirements
                                                                                  


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The referenced draft proposes an extension to Diameter overload to
support rate based control. 

Regards,

Steve

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for
draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt
Date: 	Fri, 14 Feb 2014 06:15:34 -0800
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Steve Donovan
<srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Eric Noel
<unknown-email-Eric-Noel@ietfa.amsl.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Steve Donovan and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control
Revision:	00
Title:		Diameter Overload Rate Control
Document date:	2014-02-14
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		14
URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00


Abstract:
   This specification documents an extension to the Diameter Overload
   Control (DOC) base solution.  This extension adds a new overload
   control algorithm.  This algorithm allows for a server to specify a
   maximum rate at which Diameter requests are sent to the server.

Requirements
                                                                                  


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">The referenced draft
      proposes an extension to Diameter overload to support rate based
      control.Â  <br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
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            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Subject:
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            <td>New Version Notification for
              draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
            <td>Fri, 14 Feb 2014 06:15:34 -0800</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">To: </th>
            <td>Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a>, Steve
              Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a>, Eric Noel
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:unknown-email-Eric-Noel@ietfa.amsl.com">&lt;unknown-email-Eric-Noel@ietfa.amsl.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <pre>A new version of I-D, draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Steve Donovan and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control
Revision:	00
Title:		Diameter Overload Rate Control
Document date:	2014-02-14
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		14
URL:            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt</a>
Status:         <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control/</a>
Htmlized:       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00</a>


Abstract:
   This specification documents an extension to the Diameter Overload
   Control (DOC) base solution.  This extension adds a new overload
   control algorithm.  This algorithm allows for a server to specify a
   maximum rate at which Diameter requests are sent to the server.

Requirements
                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
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The IETF Secretariat


</pre>
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--------------020708070504040801060605--


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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "ext Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:46:45 +0000
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References: <066.d4a6efb42ff3bd328e8b56b872c4e1a7@trac.tools.ietf.org> <41DC79BF-FFD9-4C17-B61D-8BDFE7D446A8@gmail.com> <18673_1392030932_52F8B4D4_18673_1082_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4970F3@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <0D5BD3F3-8797-4479-BC3D-61671D8D8AFF@gmail.com> <24932_1392032199_52F8B9C7_24932_4247_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49718B@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F8EB36.9050501@usdonovans.com> <902CE93A-75C4-4A3F-AD76-DF9C03064BE1@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2DA9@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <D4982697-ECA2-4118-8AFE-835A0B04EE46@nostrum.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209773173@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2E9B@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097741D5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3009@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52FCC20F.5000900@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3556@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/XtqKMydiHN8BsAe9fPHklt82sYc
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Hi,

I think that two points are mixed:

1) For efficiency, a DOIC-enabled client should be able to mitigate (possib=
le) overload situation even if explicit indication is not received from the=
 network.
2) DOIC-enabled clients having a different behavior regarding support or no=
t of DOIC by server.

if I agree with the first one, I disagree with the second one. The basic as=
sumption is that a DOIC client will not throttle the traffic in absence of =
overload indication (explicit or implicit). And throttling will be performe=
d as soon as an indication is received (explicit or implicit) if the client=
 is designed for that (it supports DOIC or/and default behavior has been de=
fined on reception of TOO_BUSY or non-response).

It is the only thing that matters today.

Regards,

Lionel

De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 14 f=E9vrier 2014 13:18
=C0=A0: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es

Steve,
For my clarification:
Your proposal is to mark OC-Supported-Feature AVPs when inserted to answer =
messages by an agent?

If so, the reacting node can associate unmarked Supported-Features AVPs wit=
h the server (orig-host) and can discard marked Supported-Features AVPs.

Is that understanding correct?

Ulrich


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:01 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

This could be addressed by adding the requirement that an OC-Supported-Feat=
ures AVP AVP that is inserted by an agent be marked as such.

Steve
On 2/12/14 6:38 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
The reacting node (when receiving OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer) k=
nows that the corresponding request took a path towards the server on which=
 there is a reporting node (which supports DOIC). It does not know whether =
this reporting node is the server or an agent and it does not know whether =
subsequent requests will take the same path or a different path on which th=
ere may be no reporting node.=20
Consequently the presence of OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer does no=
t tell you anything usefull on which to base behaviour for subsequent reque=
sts targeted to the same server.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

Ulrich,
Thanks for your response, see comments please

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.

1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and =
without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account b=
y reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
[MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacting no=
de overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by TR), =
therefore any 3GPP application that will support new "Overload mitigation" =
feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its procedures with th=
is objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP "Overload mitigati=
on" feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is very beneficial that the =
reacting node could identify at any moment whether or not the reporting nod=
e supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemented could be potentially di=
fferent.

2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP r=
eceived in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identi=
fied by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported b=
y an agent on the path?=20
[MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Regardles=
s the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the reacting n=
ode needs to treat "implicit indications" (like TOO_BUSY), expected reactio=
n may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC. This informati=
on is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reaction.


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

I agree with Ben here.
The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for th=
e reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the re=
acting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when th=
is server does not support DOIC.

In fact, we have already included this as a requirement=A0 in our 3GPP TR:

6.3.3=A0=A0=A0 Implicit Overload Indication
6.3.3.1=A0 Introduction
IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of impl=
icit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse net=
works.
However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined=
 in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommende=
d that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen=
 even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism u=
nder definition, but client handling of such indications is even more impor=
tant when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
At least the following indications may be considered:
- DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the rec=
eipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Di=
ameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications t=
o define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking int=
o account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME =
may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER=
_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
- Lack of response:
In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any =
Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in th=
e client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each applicati=
on, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For e=
xample, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of m=
essages have not been answered.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially)=20
reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.
I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge,=20
but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers=20
in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I=20
might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a=20
higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can=20
thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement;=20
where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to=20
distinguish between
a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested,=20
and
b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic=20
reduction requested</Ulrich>


At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be=
 able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. =
But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mi=
xed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _eas=
ier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what=
 don't.=20

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, bu=
t hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumptio=
n about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the differe=
nce between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must as=
sume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that so=
me servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "ext Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:59:19 +0000
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References: <066.d4a6efb42ff3bd328e8b56b872c4e1a7@trac.tools.ietf.org> <41DC79BF-FFD9-4C17-B61D-8BDFE7D446A8@gmail.com> <18673_1392030932_52F8B4D4_18673_1082_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4970F3@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <0D5BD3F3-8797-4479-BC3D-61671D8D8AFF@gmail.com> <24932_1392032199_52F8B9C7_24932_4247_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49718B@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F8EB36.9050501@usdonovans.com> <902CE93A-75C4-4A3F-AD76-DF9C03064BE1@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2DA9@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <D4982697-ECA2-4118-8AFE-835A0B04EE46@nostrum.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209773173@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2E9B@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097741D5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3009@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52FCC20F.5000900@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3556@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <10158_1392389206_52FE2C56_10158_1176_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4A3A41@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/27yeJFkygZHQsjSk1McEOpqBy0c
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Did you mean "while I agree with the first one ..."?

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 3:47 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

Hi,

I think that two points are mixed:

1) For efficiency, a DOIC-enabled client should be able to mitigate (possib=
le) overload situation even if explicit indication is not received from the=
 network.
2) DOIC-enabled clients having a different behavior regarding support or no=
t of DOIC by server.

if I agree with the first one, I disagree with the second one. The basic as=
sumption is that a DOIC client will not throttle the traffic in absence of =
overload indication (explicit or implicit). And throttling will be performe=
d as soon as an indication is received (explicit or implicit) if the client=
 is designed for that (it supports DOIC or/and default behavior has been de=
fined on reception of TOO_BUSY or non-response).

It is the only thing that matters today.

Regards,

Lionel

De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 14 f=E9vrier 2014 13:18
=C0=A0: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es

Steve,
For my clarification:
Your proposal is to mark OC-Supported-Feature AVPs when inserted to answer =
messages by an agent?

If so, the reacting node can associate unmarked Supported-Features AVPs wit=
h the server (orig-host) and can discard marked Supported-Features AVPs.

Is that understanding correct?

Ulrich


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:01 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

This could be addressed by adding the requirement that an OC-Supported-Feat=
ures AVP AVP that is inserted by an agent be marked as such.

Steve
On 2/12/14 6:38 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
The reacting node (when receiving OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer) k=
nows that the corresponding request took a path towards the server on which=
 there is a reporting node (which supports DOIC). It does not know whether =
this reporting node is the server or an agent and it does not know whether =
subsequent requests will take the same path or a different path on which th=
ere may be no reporting node.=20
Consequently the presence of OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer does no=
t tell you anything usefull on which to base behaviour for subsequent reque=
sts targeted to the same server.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

Ulrich,
Thanks for your response, see comments please

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.

1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and =
without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account b=
y reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
[MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacting no=
de overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by TR), =
therefore any 3GPP application that will support new "Overload mitigation" =
feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its procedures with th=
is objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP "Overload mitigati=
on" feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is very beneficial that the =
reacting node could identify at any moment whether or not the reporting nod=
e supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemented could be potentially di=
fferent.

2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP r=
eceived in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identi=
fied by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported b=
y an agent on the path?=20
[MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Regardles=
s the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the reacting n=
ode needs to treat "implicit indications" (like TOO_BUSY), expected reactio=
n may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC. This informati=
on is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reaction.


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I agree with Ben here.
The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for th=
e reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the re=
acting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when th=
is server does not support DOIC.

In fact, we have already included this as a requirement=A0 in our 3GPP TR:

6.3.3=A0=A0=A0 Implicit Overload Indication
6.3.3.1=A0 Introduction
IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of impl=
icit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse net=
works.
However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined=
 in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommende=
d that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen=
 even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism u=
nder definition, but client handling of such indications is even more impor=
tant when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
At least the following indications may be considered:
- DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the rec=
eipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Di=
ameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications t=
o define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking int=
o account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME =
may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER=
_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
- Lack of response:
In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any =
Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in th=
e client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each applicati=
on, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For e=
xample, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of m=
essages have not been answered.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially)=20
reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.
I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge,=20
but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers=20
in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I=20
might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a=20
higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can=20
thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement;=20
where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to=20
distinguish between
a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested,=20
and
b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic=20
reduction requested</Ulrich>


At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be=
 able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. =
But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mi=
xed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _eas=
ier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what=
 don't.=20

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, bu=
t hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumptio=
n about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the differe=
nce between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must as=
sume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that so=
me servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "ext Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 15:17:14 +0000
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/iusgBy1QpiBmWkILYDmvIT0Fk4o
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Yes! :)

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 14 f=E9vrier 2014 15:59
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es

Did you mean "while I agree with the first one ..."?

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 3:47 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

Hi,

I think that two points are mixed:

1) For efficiency, a DOIC-enabled client should be able to mitigate (possib=
le) overload situation even if explicit indication is not received from the=
 network.
2) DOIC-enabled clients having a different behavior regarding support or no=
t of DOIC by server.

if I agree with the first one, I disagree with the second one. The basic as=
sumption is that a DOIC client will not throttle the traffic in absence of =
overload indication (explicit or implicit). And throttling will be performe=
d as soon as an indication is received (explicit or implicit) if the client=
 is designed for that (it supports DOIC or/and default behavior has been de=
fined on reception of TOO_BUSY or non-response).

It is the only thing that matters today.

Regards,

Lionel

De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 14 f=E9vrier 2014 13:18
=C0=A0: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es

Steve,
For my clarification:
Your proposal is to mark OC-Supported-Feature AVPs when inserted to answer =
messages by an agent?

If so, the reacting node can associate unmarked Supported-Features AVPs wit=
h the server (orig-host) and can discard marked Supported-Features AVPs.

Is that understanding correct?

Ulrich


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:01 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

This could be addressed by adding the requirement that an OC-Supported-Feat=
ures AVP AVP that is inserted by an agent be marked as such.

Steve
On 2/12/14 6:38 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
The reacting node (when receiving OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer) k=
nows that the corresponding request took a path towards the server on which=
 there is a reporting node (which supports DOIC). It does not know whether =
this reporting node is the server or an agent and it does not know whether =
subsequent requests will take the same path or a different path on which th=
ere may be no reporting node.=20
Consequently the presence of OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer does no=
t tell you anything usefull on which to base behaviour for subsequent reque=
sts targeted to the same server.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

Ulrich,
Thanks for your response, see comments please

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.

1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and =
without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account b=
y reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
[MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacting no=
de overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by TR), =
therefore any 3GPP application that will support new "Overload mitigation" =
feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its procedures with th=
is objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP "Overload mitigati=
on" feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is very beneficial that the =
reacting node could identify at any moment whether or not the reporting nod=
e supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemented could be potentially di=
fferent.

2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP r=
eceived in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identi=
fied by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported b=
y an agent on the path?=20
[MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Regardles=
s the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the reacting n=
ode needs to treat "implicit indications" (like TOO_BUSY), expected reactio=
n may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC. This informati=
on is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reaction.


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

I agree with Ben here.
The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for th=
e reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the re=
acting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when th=
is server does not support DOIC.

In fact, we have already included this as a requirement=A0 in our 3GPP TR:

6.3.3=A0=A0=A0 Implicit Overload Indication
6.3.3.1=A0 Introduction
IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of impl=
icit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse net=
works.
However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined=
 in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommende=
d that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen=
 even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism u=
nder definition, but client handling of such indications is even more impor=
tant when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
At least the following indications may be considered:
- DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the rec=
eipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Di=
ameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications t=
o define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking int=
o account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME =
may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER=
_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
- Lack of response:
In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any =
Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in th=
e client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each applicati=
on, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For e=
xample, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of m=
essages have not been answered.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially)=20
reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.
I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge,=20
but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers=20
in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I=20
might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a=20
higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can=20
thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement;=20
where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to=20
distinguish between
a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested,=20
and
b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic=20
reduction requested</Ulrich>


At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be=
 able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. =
But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mi=
xed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _eas=
ier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what=
 don't.=20

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, bu=
t hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumptio=
n about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the differe=
nce between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must as=
sume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that so=
me servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "ext Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/BMGsKq-R2Mo6vhgLMG6w_uI-UVA
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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I agree

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 4:17 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

Yes! :)

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 14 f=E9vrier 2014 15:59
=C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es

Did you mean "while I agree with the first one ..."?

-----Original Message-----
From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 3:47 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

Hi,

I think that two points are mixed:

1) For efficiency, a DOIC-enabled client should be able to mitigate (possib=
le) overload situation even if explicit indication is not received from the=
 network.
2) DOIC-enabled clients having a different behavior regarding support or no=
t of DOIC by server.

if I agree with the first one, I disagree with the second one. The basic as=
sumption is that a DOIC client will not throttle the traffic in absence of =
overload indication (explicit or implicit). And throttling will be performe=
d as soon as an indication is received (explicit or implicit) if the client=
 is designed for that (it supports DOIC or/and default behavior has been de=
fined on reception of TOO_BUSY or non-response).

It is the only thing that matters today.

Regards,

Lionel

De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 14 f=E9vrier 2014 13:18
=C0=A0: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es

Steve,
For my clarification:
Your proposal is to mark OC-Supported-Feature AVPs when inserted to answer =
messages by an agent?

If so, the reacting node can associate unmarked Supported-Features AVPs wit=
h the server (orig-host) and can discard marked Supported-Features AVPs.

Is that understanding correct?

Ulrich


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:01 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

This could be addressed by adding the requirement that an OC-Supported-Feat=
ures AVP AVP that is inserted by an agent be marked as such.

Steve
On 2/12/14 6:38 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
The reacting node (when receiving OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer) k=
nows that the corresponding request took a path towards the server on which=
 there is a reporting node (which supports DOIC). It does not know whether =
this reporting node is the server or an agent and it does not know whether =
subsequent requests will take the same path or a different path on which th=
ere may be no reporting node.=20
Consequently the presence of OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer does no=
t tell you anything usefull on which to base behaviour for subsequent reque=
sts targeted to the same server.

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:56 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

Ulrich,
Thanks for your response, see comments please

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:14
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.

1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY and =
without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into account b=
y reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
[MCruz] I agree. But one of the 3GPP requirements is to improve reacting no=
de overload mitigation based on implicit indications (as described by TR), =
therefore any 3GPP application that will support new "Overload mitigation" =
feature (or whatever may be the name), shall improve its procedures with th=
is objective. It is expected as well, that this new 3GPP "Overload mitigati=
on" feature makes use of our DOIC, and then it is very beneficial that the =
reacting node could identify at any moment whether or not the reporting nod=
e supports DOIC, since procedures to be implemented could be potentially di=
fferent.

2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features AVP r=
eceived in an answer indicates the features supported by the server (identi=
fied by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features supported b=
y an agent on the path?=20
[MCruz] Reacting node receives reporting node Supported-Features. Regardles=
s the reporting node is either an agent or a server, in case the reacting n=
ode needs to treat "implicit indications" (like TOO_BUSY), expected reactio=
n may depend on whether or not reporting node supports DOIC. This informati=
on is very beneficial to determine the most appropriate reaction.


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:21 PM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s

I agree with Ben here.
The mechanism is meant to work in mixed scenarios and it is relevant for th=
e reacting node to know whether or not a server supports DOIC, since the re=
acting node should be able to mitigate this server overload as well when th=
is server does not support DOIC.

In fact, we have already included this as a requirement=A0 in our 3GPP TR:

6.3.3=A0=A0=A0 Implicit Overload Indication
6.3.3.1=A0 Introduction
IETF Draft draft-ietf-dime-overload-reqs-06 [4] talks about the use of impl=
icit indications and the inadequacy of this approach for large, diverse net=
works.
However, a Diameter client may receive some overload indications as defined=
 in Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] and then it is recommende=
d that the client uses them to mitigate overload situation. This may happen=
 even if involved server and client support the new CN Overload mechanism u=
nder definition, but client handling of such indications is even more impor=
tant when the new mechanism is not supported by either client or server.
At least the following indications may be considered:
- DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY protocol error:
Diameter base specification IETF RFC 6733 [2] does not suggest that the rec=
eipt of a protocol error DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY response should affect future Di=
ameter messages in any way, then it may be relevant for some applications t=
o define the behavior that best mitigate the overload situation, taking int=
o account application specifics, operator deployments.... For example, MME =
may implement a mitigation procedure based on the rate of received DIAMETER=
_TOO_BUSY protocol error from HSS.
- Lack of response:
In case of overload the server may react dropping the requests without any =
Diameter error message being returned, what may imply retransmissions in th=
e client side, negatively impacting overload. Therefore, for each applicati=
on, it should be analyzed how to mitigate overload in this situation. For e=
xample, the client may consider avoiding retransmissions when a number of m=
essages have not been answered.



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 16:55
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer message=
s


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

1) I want the reacting node to be able to learn if a (potentially)=20
reporting node supports DOIC, even when that node is not in overload.
I don't want to specify any particular behavior for that knowledge,=20
but I suspect implementations may want to treat DOIC compliant servers=20
in some way differently than they do non-DOIC servers. For example, I=20
might have a configured rate limit for non-DOIC peers, but use a=20
higher (or no) limit for peers that are known to support DOIC (and can=20
thus speak for themselves.) <Ulrich>sounds like a new requirement;=20
where does it come from? I would have thought that there is no need to=20
distinguish between
a) DOIC not supported and therefore no traffic reduction requested,=20
and
b) DOIC supported, but not in overload and therefore no traffic=20
reduction requested</Ulrich>


At one point, I thought we agreed as a group that a reacting node should be=
 able to identify if a (potential) reporting node supported the mechanism. =
But in any case, we have a requirement that the mechanism must work in a mi=
xed environment, where some nodes support it and some don't. It's much _eas=
ier_ to meet that requirement if we can tell what nodes support it and what=
 don't.=20

In general, a reacting node can assume that a server that supports DOIC, bu=
t hasn't reported overload is not overloaded. It can make no such assumptio=
n about a server that doesn't support DOIC. If it does not know the differe=
nce between a non-overloaded server and a non-supporting server, it must as=
sume all such servers are non-supporting. It ends up simply knowing that so=
me servers _are_ overloaded, and some other servers _might_be_ overloaded.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Hi,

I'm ok for the following cases:

-	0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid (taking into account Ulr=
ich's comment).=20

-	0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, this is wha=
t the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload condition.

However, I have a comment on this one:

-	Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting node can i=
gnore the reduction if validity period is 0.

If we are OK with the first one (R=3D0, V>=3D0), I think that the case abov=
e should be considered as invalid because there is NO reason to send a redu=
ction that will not be stored by the reacting node. The received OLR should=
 be discarded and the running OLR state should not be updated. We can't eve=
n say here that the validity time prevails on the reduction as there is no =
way to appraise the consistency of the information.

In other words, I think that we should have the following cases:

-	non-zero reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid
-	0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid (not blocking)
-	0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid
-	non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Invalid

Does it make sense?

Lionel

De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 14 f=E9vrier 2014 11:20
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org list
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Hello Jean-Jacques,

I understand your concerns.
However, I think same precautions in the process to return back to a situat=
ion where throttling is not requested, can be achieved without allowing "0%=
".=20
On one hand, DOIC-enabled reporting node should supervise constantly how re=
ceived =A0traffic is affecting its overload, in order to be able to request=
 a reduction when required. It should not only be done during the new Valid=
ityDuration when 0% was requested.
A part from that, gradual increase of allowed traffic is always possible (w=
ithout 0%), since even reporting node could use 10%... 5%, 3%, 1%.

However, I do not think this subject is critical. 0% could be acceptable by=
 me if you (all) still think this is preferable.

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: viernes, 14 de febrero de 2014 9:46
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Hi MCruz, Steve

I here =A0answer Steve and MCruz mails

About Steve, I have not said the reporting "needs" to send a 0% reduction v=
alid
( it is an implementation choice of the reporting node to choose the % valu=
es it puts in OLR), I simply says =A0to not forbid it.

In an overload condition, a behavior example is that the reporting , by its=
 own logic (not standardised) , determines the % reduction =A0value it send=
 in OLRs, and then will observe the effect of this OLR in the evolution of =
the received =A0traffic that =A0the reacting has throttled. Reporting will =
then decides to keep, increase or decrease the OLR %value .When we come to =
the end of overload, the reporting still receiving throttled traffic, will =
consider that it does =A0not more need to request a % reduction.
- One way is to send an OLR with validity period to 0 to indicate the end o=
f the overload condition, but it does this without having yet received unth=
rottled =A0traffic that in some case may nevertheless =A0request to immedia=
tely send again an OLR requesting reduction, meaning that reporting, having=
 terminated =A0an overload condition, will =A0immediately restart another o=
ne. This a way to proceed as Steve described , I do not say it does not work
- The way I describe is that =A0reporting =A0sends a 0% value to see the ef=
fect of this new value on the traffic it will receive (that will be unthrot=
tled), before concluding =A0to the end of the overload , and if nevertheles=
s the received unthrottled =A0traffic still require to send =A0OLRs, =A0rep=
orting will not conclude to the end of overload condition =A0and again gene=
rate OLRs with a non zero % value.=20

On the reacting, if it receives a 0% value, it simply does nothing,=20

I remind =A0I agree with the proposal =A0that the end of the Overlaod condi=
tion is determined by the Value 0 of the Validity period , or the end of th=
e =A0expiry timer, but is not linked to the 0% =A0traffic reduction =A0

Developers, have various possibilities in the =A0way =A0=A0to manage the =
=A0overload condition =A0and the OLRS they send, I think that DOIC should l=
eave flexibility.

Best regards

JJacques =A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0

De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:16
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

JJ,

Why does the reacting node need to send a reduction percentage of zero to d=
etermine if it is stable?=A0 Can't the reacting node just do its normal che=
cking for overload after sending the validity period of zero?=A0 If it find=
s the need for reduction of traffic, it can just send a new overload report.

Steve
On 2/13/14 4:43 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
Hi MCruz
=A0
AS =A0Ben proposed, and I agree, =A0=A0value of zero (0) for the Validity p=
eriod indicates that an existing overload condition has ended and that the =
reporting node is in a stable condition.
An important word is "stable".
=A0
When the traffic peak on client side having created the overload decreases,=
 =A0=A0the reporting node progressively diminishes the % traffic reduction =
in OLRs it sends =A0towards clients taking care to minimize the possible os=
cillations. At a certain time , =A0server will consider that it can indicat=
e no traffic reduction to clients. Then is it stable? =A0there may be diffe=
rent implementation dependent =A0ways for the server to decide the situatio=
n is stable; =A0one is to send 0% in OLRs and wait a certain number of seco=
nds (not 24 hours) to check if situation is stable =A0and then put the vali=
dity timer to 0 (or leaves the expiry timer =A0expire). I do not see why to=
 forbid this =A0way to test the stable condition.
=A0
So the end of overload condition, as Ben proposed, =A0can remain ONLY based=
 on Validity =A0duration value 0 (or timer expiry), not on the value 0 of t=
he % reduction (so a bit different from Nirav statement, but in line with U=
lrich comment) . The value 0% of the traffic reduction is not forbidden as =
a possible =A0way to check the stability condition .
=A0
Best regards=20
=A0
JJacques
=A0
=A0
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 10:56
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org list
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
Hello all,
=A0
I think proposal to use just Validity-Duration=3D0 to end overload mainly h=
as the intention to simplify and avoid the checks you just listed below.
If we allow both, it means that the case Ulrich mentioned is valid, and eve=
n with 0% reduction OLR info cannot be deleted until Validity time expires,=
 even we could receive a new OLR in sequence. Even, the reporting needs sti=
ll to keep Validity timer on for this OLR.
I think this does not provide any added value but simply makes things a bit=
 more complex. What could be the reason to keep 0% reduction but a Validity=
 of a few hours (e.g.)?
=A0
Best regards
/MCruz
=A0
=A0
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: jueves, 13 de febrero de 2014 10:24
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
I am OK with Ulrich
=A0
JJacques
=A0
=A0
De=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 09:56
=C0=A0: ext Nirav Salot (nsalot); TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dim=
e@ietf.org list
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
I also agree with the principle.
=A0
One minor clarification:
0%-reduction with non-zero validity period is valid but validity period can=
not be ignored: as long as not expired the sequence number needs to be stor=
ed for future checking; once expired, sequence number must not be used for =
future checking.
=A0
Ulrich
=A0
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Nirav Salot (nsa=
lot)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:11 AM
To: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
I also tend to agree with JJ below.
Unless there is a strong reason, no point in forbidding the use of 0% reduc=
tion - which can also indicate end of overload condition.
=A0
May be we can clarify that 0% reduction and/or 0 validity period indicates =
end of overload. In my view, both are valid for the use, individually and t=
ogether. So,
- 0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting node can i=
gnore the validity period if reduction is 0.
- Non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid. The reacting node can i=
gnore the reduction if validity period is 0.
- 0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid as well. Generally, this is wha=
t the reporting node will use to indicate the end of overload condition.=20
=A0
Regards,
Nirav.
=A0
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:18 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
Dear all=20
=A0
On this ticket, =A0I agree on Ben's =A0proposal =A0to use the Validity peri=
od of 0 to indicate the end of overload.
But about the value of 0% reduction why to forbid it ?
=A0
In the process to =A0return to normal traffic conditions, the =A0server sti=
ll sending OLR eg with =A05% reduction =A0=A0=A0will consider to no request=
 anymore traffic reduction but without being yet sure if =A0it will be =A0s=
table (end of overload condition as Ben reminded means stable =A0situation =
without traffic reduction ) , so server =A0can send 0% reduction OLR=A0 but=
 with a validity duration different from 0.=20
Otherwise it has to =A0use 1% throttling to check stability and if traffic =
with the client is 1000 request per second this means 10 requests throttled=
 per second which should not be throttled.
In addition, we do not need to handle the 0% reduction =A0as an error case =
(cf Mcruz mail)
=A0
Best regards
=A0
JJacques=20
=A0
=A0
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN=
 - DE/Munich)
Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 10:22
=C0=A0: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
Thank you for the clarification.
I agree.
=A0
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:13 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
Dear Ulrich, all,
=A0
The proposal was to use OC-Validity-Duration AVP =3D0 to indicate end of ov=
erload, since this could be generally applied to any algorithm.
Then, Reduction-Percentage =3D 0 should be considered as invalid.
I found this reasonable.
=A0
Best regards
/MCruz
=A0
=A0
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:57
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org list
Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
I'm confused,
=A0
I thought that people were in favour of allowing 0 to indicate end of overl=
oad.
=A0
Ulrich
=A0
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:44 AM
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
Ben, all,
=A0
This comment affects as well clause 5.5.2:
=A0
=A0=A0 value =3D=3D 0
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Indicates explicitly the end of overload condition and the
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reacting node SHOULD NOT apply the traffic abatement algori=
thm
=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0procedures anymore for the given reporting node (or realm).
=A0
This should be modified to explain this value is not valid and what is the =
expected behavior (i.e. it is discarded).
=A0
Best regards
/MCruz
=A0
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 14:54
To: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
Ben,
=A0
This approach sounds reasonable to me.
But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a Reduction-Perc=
entage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I presume it should =
be discarded by client.=20
=A0
Regards
/MCruz
=A0
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related discussi=
on about handling invalid values):
=A0
Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:
=A0
Old:
=A0
Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 hour=
s) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as if the=
 OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.
=A0
New:
=A0
Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity dur=
ation values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not presen=
t. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing overload condition has en=
ded and that the reporting node is in a stable condition.
=A0
Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:
=A0
Old:
=A0
=A0The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one hun=
dred (100). =A0Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100. =A0The value=
 of 100 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node is under=
 a severe load and ceases to process any new messages. The Reduction-Percen=
tage AVP MUST be present in an overload report that uses the default abatem=
ent algorithm.
=A0
Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the Reduction-Percentage A=
VP. A zero value would logically indicate that no overload abatement is req=
uested. Instead, reporting nodes use a OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of ze=
ro (0) to indicate the end of an overload condition. [Section 4.5]
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0

On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:
Just post it here.



On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?

On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:

Ben,

Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.

- Jouni


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org> wrote:
#45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing overload
condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement algorithm.
(We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not make
sense for all future ones.)

Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
overload condition based on the reasoning above.

I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two reasons:

1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific to al=
gorithms that use reduction percentage.)

2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes semantica=
lly identical to the expiration of an overload=A0condition. This allows a s=
impler implementation.
=A0
=A0

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
=A0

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Thread-Topic: [Dime]	[dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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I agree.

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:26
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR

Jouni,

The important thing is to define the properties.  There should be no harm i=
n giving one suggested implementation.

Steve
On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:



If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally

and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP

then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less

mandatory reference..



- Jouni





On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@er=
icsson.com><mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:



It sounds reasonable to me as well.

/MCruz



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan

Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



+1

On 2/10/14 7:47 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real r=
equirements for the sequence-number are:



- Globally/eternally unique

- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by S=
teve)



The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to =
generate sequence numbers with such properties.



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen

Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR





Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:



o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no

  reason to remember anything about it

o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based

  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it

  "globally and eternally unique".



- Jouni







On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



Steve,



sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after =
OLR expiry.

This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state

Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything ab=
out it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any va=
lue.





Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



A couple of things -



The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over tim=
e, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but i=
s not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set t=
he sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and th=
en increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload =
report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as=
 it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global se=
quence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server q=
uery that global sequence number server after each reboot.



We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way t=
o reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an =
active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reaso=
n to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could=
, conceivably have any value.



The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter s=
pecification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and=
 eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation =
is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.



It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP ti=
mestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a simil=
ar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory =
portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the=
 implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."



Steve



On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.

But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:



Assume the sender sends sequence numbers

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....

but the receicer for any reason receives

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....

The receiver would accept

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000

and then silently discards

3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....

with no way to come back to sync.



Are we sure that this cannot happen?



Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausi=
bility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time =
of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem=
. But in the moment I don't see another way.



Ulrich





-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM

To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always=
 increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the=
 sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a=
 good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an i=
nterop requirement.



On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wr=
ote:



Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is =
a case for a "MUST".

We are not violating anything.



Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to k=
now how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format o=
f the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR



I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet t=
he requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementatio=
n. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Sect=
ion 6 of 2119 includes the following:



"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is

  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has

  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "



The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected =
peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectl=
y reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-norma=
tive (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good wa=
y to do this.



On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@o=
range.com> wrote:



I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to =
mandate a specific semantic.



Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a s=
imple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?



Lionel



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR



How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  Ther=
e is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be incl=
uded only as one way of addressing the requirement.



Steve



On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:

I also agree.



Regards,

Nirav.



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.

If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!



In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequ=
ence-number.



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR



#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR



The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:

   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST

   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload

   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP

   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only

   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.

   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two

   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not

   related or correlated.



   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be

   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two

   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the

   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).





With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  o=
f sync (for whatever reason).

It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  ti=
mestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  a=
nd to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  m=
ust be ignored by the reacting node.





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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:26<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp value=
s within OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Jouni,<br>
<br>
The important thing is to define the properties.&nbsp; There should be no h=
arm in giving one suggested implementation.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>mandatory reference..<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <a href=3D"mailto:m=
aria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">&lt;maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com&gt;=
</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>It sounds reasonable to me as well.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&#43;1<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/10/14 7:47 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel=
.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the r=
eal requirements for the sequence-number are:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Globally/eternally unique<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind=
 by Steve) <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on ho=
w to generate sequence numbers with such properties.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Jouni Korhonen<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>&nbsp; reason to remember anything about it<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based <o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;on the NTP time &#43; any vendor specific data to make it =
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;globally and eternally unique&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync a=
fter OLR expiry.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anythi=
ng about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have a=
ny value. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>A couple of things - <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically ove=
r time, including over a reboot.&nbsp; Use of NTP time is one way of doing =
this but is not the only way.&nbsp; Someone could, for instance, use a time=
 stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after =
a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each subse=
quent overload report sent.&nbsp; This actually has better properties than =
an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.&nbsp; One coul=
d also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and=
 have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each=
 reboot.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>We also have a duration timer on overload reports.&nbsp; This gives us=
 one way to reset.&nbsp; It should only be required to remember the sequenc=
e number of an active overload report.&nbsp; Once the overload report expir=
es there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload r=
eport received could, conceivably have any value. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diame=
ter specification.&nbsp; The wording there is -- &quot;The Session-Id MUST =
be globally and eternally unique&quot;.&nbsp; We just need eternally as the=
 spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying th=
e overload report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of N=
TP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a =
similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a manda=
tory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format fo=
r the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ...&quot;<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Assume the sender sends sequence numbers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>but the receicer for any reason receives <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,...=
. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The receiver would accept<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and then silently discards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....&nbsp; 4, 5, .... <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>with no way to come back to sync.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Are we sure that this cannot happen?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and p=
lausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and =
time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the pr=
oblem. But in the moment I don't see another way.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number a=
lways increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement tha=
t the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is proba=
bly a good way to&nbsp; meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in it=
self, an interop requirement.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of &quot;interop requiremen=
t&quot;, it is a case for a &quot;MUST&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>We are not violating anything.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces=
 to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the for=
mat of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to m=
eet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implemen=
tation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 &quot;MUST&quot; level requirement=
 to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where =
it is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which=
 has<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)&nb=
sp; &quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expe=
cted peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be per=
fectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-=
normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a go=
od way to do this.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use cas=
e to mandate a specific semantic.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it i=
s a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.&=
nbsp; There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.&nbsp; That=
 should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I also agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nirav.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">l=
ionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If it is &quot;like an NTP timestamp&quot;, be proud and say it loud!<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this=
 sequence-number.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Num=
ber AVP MUST<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two =
overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents =
of the AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).&nbsp; The sequence =
number is only<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; required to be unique between two overload control endpoi=
nts.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i=
.e. two<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints =
are not<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; related or correlated.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence n=
umber MUST be<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; greater than any sequence number previously seen between =
two<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparo=
und of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are o=
ut&nbsp; of sync (for whatever reason).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NT=
P&nbsp; timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was c=
reated,&nbsp; and to mandate that&nbsp; OLRs with a time stamp higher than =
time of reception&nbsp; must be ignored by the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
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f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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And I agree too.

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:27
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR

Ulrich,

I agree, we should say must not remember.  Otherwise it will be more diffic=
ult to get back into syncronization.

Steve
On 2/12/14 7:28 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Maybe its worth to explicitly say that "... there is no reason to remember =
anything about it" includes "no need for reacting nodes to remember sequenc=
e numbers of expired OLRs" or even mandate that sequence numbers of expired=
 OLRs must not be remembered by reacting nodes.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> [mailto=
:lionel.morand@orange.com]

Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 2:48 PM

To: Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the real r=
equirements for the sequence-number are:



- Globally/eternally unique

- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind by S=
teve)



The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on how to =
generate sequence numbers with such properties.



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Jouni Korhonen

Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33

=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR





Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:



o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no

  reason to remember anything about it

o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based

  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it

  "globally and eternally unique".



- Jouni







On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe=
@nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



Steve,



sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync after =
OLR expiry.

This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state

Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anything ab=
out it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have any va=
lue.





Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



A couple of things -



The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically over tim=
e, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this but i=
s not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to set t=
he sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot and th=
en increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent overload =
report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time stamp as=
 it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a global se=
quence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter server q=
uery that global sequence number server after each reboot.



We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one way t=
o reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number of an =
active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no reaso=
n to remember anything about it and the next overload report received could=
, conceivably have any value.



The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diameter s=
pecification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globally and=
 eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentiation =
is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.



It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of NTP ti=
mestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a simil=
ar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a mandatory =
portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format for the=
 implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."



Steve



On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.

But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:



Assume the sender sends sequence numbers

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....

but the receicer for any reason receives

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....

The receiver would accept

1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000

and then silently discards

3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....

with no way to come back to sync.



Are we sure that this cannot happen?



Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and plausi=
bility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and time =
of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the problem=
. But in the moment I don't see another way.



Ulrich





-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell

Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM

To: ext lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number always=
 increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement that the=
 sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is probably a=
 good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself, an i=
nterop requirement.



On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com><mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wr=
ote:



Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", it is =
a case for a "MUST".

We are not violating anything.



Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces to k=
now how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the format o=
f the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.



-----Message d'origine-----

De : Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR



I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to meet t=
he requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implementatio=
n. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so. Sect=
ion 6 of 2119 includes the following:



"In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is

  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has

  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "



The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expected =
peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be perfectl=
y reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-norma=
tive (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a good wa=
y to do this.



On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@o=
range.com> wrote:



I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use case to =
mandate a specific semantic.



Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it is a s=
imple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?



Lionel



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-=
OLR



How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.  Ther=
e is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be incl=
uded only as one way of addressing the requirement.



Steve



On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:

I also agree.



Regards,

Nirav.



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR



The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.

If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!



In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this sequ=
ence-number.



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50

=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN

Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR



#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR



The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:

   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST

   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload

   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP

   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only

   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.

   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two

   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not

   related or correlated.



   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be

   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two

   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the

   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).





With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are out  o=
f sync (for whatever reason).

It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NTP  ti=
mestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was created,  a=
nd to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of reception  m=
ust be ignored by the reacting node.





___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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modified, changed or falsified.

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

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______________________________________________

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And I agree too.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:27<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp value=
s within OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
<br>
I agree, we should say must not remember.&nbsp; Otherwise it will be more d=
ifficult to get back into syncronization.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/12/14 7:28 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Maybe its worth to explicitly say that &quot;... there is no reason to=
 remember anything about it&quot; includes &quot;no need for reacting nodes=
 to remember sequence numbers of expired OLRs&quot; or even mandate that se=
quence numbers of expired OLRs must not be remembered by reacting nodes.<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@or=
ange.com</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">mailto:lionel.mor=
and@orange.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 2:48 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Jouni Korhonen; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: RE: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the r=
eal requirements for the sequence-number are:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Globally/eternally unique<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind=
 by Steve) <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on ho=
w to generate sequence numbers with such properties.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Jouni Korhonen<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>&nbsp; reason to remember anything about it<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based <o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;on the NTP time &#43; any vendor specific data to make it =
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;globally and eternally unique&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, &quot;Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)&quot=
; <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync a=
fter OLR expiry.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anythi=
ng about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have a=
ny value. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>A couple of things - <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically ove=
r time, including over a reboot.&nbsp; Use of NTP time is one way of doing =
this but is not the only way.&nbsp; Someone could, for instance, use a time=
 stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after =
a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for each subse=
quent overload report sent.&nbsp; This actually has better properties than =
an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll over.&nbsp; One coul=
d also create a global sequence number service that is not tied to time and=
 have a Diameter server query that global sequence number server after each=
 reboot.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>We also have a duration timer on overload reports.&nbsp; This gives us=
 one way to reset.&nbsp; It should only be required to remember the sequenc=
e number of an active overload report.&nbsp; Once the overload report expir=
es there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload r=
eport received could, conceivably have any value. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diame=
ter specification.&nbsp; The wording there is -- &quot;The Session-Id MUST =
be globally and eternally unique&quot;.&nbsp; We just need eternally as the=
 spacial differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying th=
e overload report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of N=
TP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a =
similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a manda=
tory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format fo=
r the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ...&quot;<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Assume the sender sends sequence numbers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,.... <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>but the receicer for any reason receives <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,...=
. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The receiver would accept<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and then silently discards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>3,&nbsp; ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....&nbsp; 4, 5, .... <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>with no way to come back to sync.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Are we sure that this cannot happen?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and p=
lausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and =
time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the pr=
oblem. But in the moment I don't see another way.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number a=
lways increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement tha=
t the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is proba=
bly a good way to&nbsp; meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in it=
self, an interop requirement.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com">&lt;lionel.morand@orange.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of &quot;interop requiremen=
t&quot;, it is a case for a &quot;MUST&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>We are not violating anything.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces=
 to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the for=
mat of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostr=
um.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to m=
eet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implemen=
tation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 &quot;MUST&quot; level requirement=
 to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where =
it is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which=
 has<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)&nb=
sp; &quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expe=
cted peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be per=
fectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-=
normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a go=
od way to do this.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com=
">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use cas=
e to mandate a specific semantic.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it i=
s a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision.&=
nbsp; There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.&nbsp; That=
 should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I also agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nirav.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">l=
ionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If it is &quot;like an NTP timestamp&quot;, be proud and say it loud!<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this=
 sequence-number.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De : dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ie=
tf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc : <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Num=
ber AVP MUST<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two =
overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents =
of the AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).&nbsp; The sequence =
number is only<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; required to be unique between two overload control endpoi=
nts.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i=
.e. two<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints =
are not<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; related or correlated.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence n=
umber MUST be<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; greater than any sequence number previously seen between =
two<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparo=
und of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are o=
ut&nbsp; of sync (for whatever reason).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NT=
P&nbsp; timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was c=
reated,&nbsp; and to mandate that&nbsp; OLRs with a time stamp higher than =
time of reception&nbsp; must be ignored by the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
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te this message and its attachments.
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From nobody Fri Feb 14 08:11:32 2014
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To: Stefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu>
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Hi.
My life has been hectic, and I completely dropped the ball on this!
Thanks for doing this.


From nobody Fri Feb 14 09:47:51 2014
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
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OK

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:55
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previou=
s history

+1
On 2/12/14 7:34 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

Thanks Jouni, I didn't realize.

One more correction added



Proposal:

Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce

its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the

reacting node would send 100 packets to the                        <---

reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       <=
---

reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to

the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th

packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try

to recover from it.





-----Original Message-----

From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]

Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 10:36

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previo=
us history





Fine by me.. though you then need to apply the same change to the rest of t=
his paragraph, not only the first one.



Also, please update this additional concern into the issue tracker issue #5=
2.



- Jouni



On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@er=
icsson.com><mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:



Same comment also applies to following paragraph in 5.5.2



Now:

  0 < value < 100



     Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to

     reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the

     reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the

     reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value

     of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

     90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true

     reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up

     to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every

     10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application

     logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100



Proposal:

Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce

its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the

reacting node would send 100 packets to the                        <---

reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

90 packets per second. How the reacting node achieves the "true

reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to

the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th

packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try

to recover from it.





We should not specify a rates for the simple loss algorithm. It's up to the=
 implementation how to reduce, but no time unit has to be specified.







-----Original Message-----

From: dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]

Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:13

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous

history



#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history



Now (chapter 4.7):

   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.



Proposal:

The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32  and =
describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is  requested to re=
duce, compared to what it otherwise would send.





The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is  requi=
red to consider history of sent information when throttling.



--

-----------------------------------------------+----------------------

-----------------------------------------------+--

-----------------------------------------------+---

Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com<mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@er=
icsson.com>  |      Owner:  MCruz

    Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9

Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new

Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:

Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0

                                              |   Keywords:

-----------------------------------------------+----------------------

-----------------------------------------------+--

-----------------------------------------------+---



Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52><http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52>

dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/><http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>



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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> jeudi 13 f=E9vrier 2014 13:55<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be base=
d on previous history<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#43;1<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/12/14 7:34 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Thanks Jouni, I didn't realize.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>One more correction added<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of <=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the &quot;tr=
ue&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;---<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reduction&quot; transactions leading to the sent request messages is u=
p to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th <o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try=
 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to recover from it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Jouni Korhonen [<a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto=
:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 10:36<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on p=
revious history<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Fine by me.. though you then need to apply the same change to the rest=
 of this paragraph, not only the first one.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Also, please update this additional concern into the issue tracker iss=
ue #52.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome <a href=3D"mailto:m=
aria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">&lt;maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com&gt;=
</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Same comment also applies to following paragraph in 5.5.2<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Now:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; 0 &lt; value &lt; 100<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates that the reporting node urges the r=
eacting node to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduce its traffic by a given percentage.&nbs=
p; For example if the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node has been sending 100 packets pe=
r second to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduct=
ion-Percentage value<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of 10 would mean that from now on the reactin=
g node MUST only send<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90 packets per second.&nbsp; How the reacting=
 node achieves the &quot;true<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduction&quot; transactions leading to the s=
ent request messages is up<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the implementation.&nbsp; The reacting nod=
e MAY simply drop every<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10th packet from its output queue and let the=
 generic application<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logic try to recover from it.0 &lt; value &lt=
; 100<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of <=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>90 packets per second. How the reacting node achieves the &quot;true <=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>reduction&quot; transactions leading to the sent request messages is u=
p to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th <o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try=
 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to recover from it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>We should not specify a rates for the simple loss algorithm. It's up t=
o the implementation how to reduce, but no time unit has to be specified. <=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: dime issue tracker [<a href=3D"mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.i=
etf.org">mailto:trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:13<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous <o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>history<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Now (chapter 4.7):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type o=
f Unsigned32<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; and describes the percentage of the traffic that the send=
er is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would =
have sent.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32&=
nbsp; and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is&nbsp; =
requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is&n=
bsp; required to consider history of sent information when throttling.<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----------------------------------------------&#43;------------------=
----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----------------------------------------------&#43;--<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----------------------------------------------&#43;---<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>Reporter:&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com">m=
aria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com</a>&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Owner:&nbsp; MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp; defect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Bartol=
om=E9<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Priority:&nbsp; major&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Status:&nbsp; new<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Component:&nbsp; draft-docdt-dime-ovli&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; Milestone:<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>Severity:&nbsp; Active WG Document&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; Version:&nbsp; 1.0<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; Keywords:<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----------------------------------------------&#43;------------------=
----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----------------------------------------------&#43;--<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----------------------------------------------&#43;---<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ticket URL: <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/=
52">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52&gt;</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>dime <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.=
org/wg/dime/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
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+1

On Feb 12, 2014, at 7:34 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Thanks Jouni, I didn't realize.
> One more correction added
>=20
>> Proposal:
>> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce=20=

>> its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
>> reacting node would send 100 packets to the				=
<---
>> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20=

>> 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true   =
    <---
>> reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to=20=

>> the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=20
>> packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic =
try=20
>> to recover from it.
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 10:36
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on =
previous history
>=20
>=20
> Fine by me.. though you then need to apply the same change to the rest =
of this paragraph, not only the first one.
>=20
> Also, please update this additional concern into the issue tracker =
issue #52.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
> On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Same comment also applies to following paragraph in 5.5.2
>>=20
>> Now:
>>  0 < value < 100
>>=20
>>     Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
>>     reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
>>     reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
>>     reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
>>     of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only =
send
>>     90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
>>     reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is =
up
>>     to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
>>     10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
>>     logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
>>=20
>> Proposal:
>> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce=20=

>> its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
>> reacting node would send 100 packets to the				=
<---
>> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20=

>> 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>> 90 packets per second. How the reacting node achieves the "true=20
>> reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to=20=

>> the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=20
>> packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic =
try=20
>> to recover from it.
>>=20
>>=20
>> We should not specify a rates for the simple loss algorithm. It's up =
to the implementation how to reduce, but no time unit has to be =
specified.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>> Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:13
>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous=20
>> history
>>=20
>> #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>>=20
>> Now (chapter 4.7):
>>   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of =
Unsigned32
>>   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>>   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
>>=20
>> Proposal:
>> The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32 =
 and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is  =
requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is  =
required to consider history of sent information when throttling.
>>=20
>> --
>> =
-----------------------------------------------+----------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+--
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>>    Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
>> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>>                                              |   Keywords:
>> =
-----------------------------------------------+----------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+--
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>=20
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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+1. It doesn't even have to be "suggested" in the since of a =
(non-normative) recommendation. It can merely be an example of an =
approach which meets the stated requirements.

On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:25 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Jouni,
>=20
> The important thing is to define the properties.  There should be no =
harm in giving one suggested implementation.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>> If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally
>> and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP
>> then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less
>> mandatory reference..
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome=20
>> <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> It sounds reasonable to me as well.
>>> /MCruz
>>> =20
>>> From: DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>> ] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>>> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
>>> To:=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>> =20
>>> +1
>>> On 2/10/14 7:47 AM,=20
>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>  wrote:
>>> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the =
real requirements for the sequence-number are:
>>> =20
>>> - Globally/eternally unique
>>> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as =
remind by Steve)=20
>>> =20
>>> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on =
how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
>>> =20
>>> Lionel
>>> =20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>> ] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
>>> Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33
>>> =C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>> Cc :=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
>>> =20
>>> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>>>   reason to remember anything about it
>>> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
>>>   on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
>>>   "globally and eternally unique".
>>> =20
>>> - Jouni
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)"=20
>>> <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
>>>  wrote:
>>> =20
>>> Steve,
>>> =20
>>> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync =
after OLR expiry.
>>> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
>>> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember =
anything about it and the next overload report received could, =
conceivably have any value.=20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> Ulrich
>>> =20
>>> From: DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
>>> To:=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>> =20
>>> A couple of things -=20
>>> =20
>>> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically =
over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing =
this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time =
stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent =
after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for =
each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better =
properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll =
over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is =
not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence =
number server after each reboot.
>>> =20
>>> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us =
one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence =
number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires =
there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload =
report received could, conceivably have any value.=20
>>> =20
>>> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base =
Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be =
globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial =
differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the =
overload report.
>>> =20
>>> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of =
NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded =
in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes =
a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended =
format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
>>> =20
>>> Steve
>>> =20
>>> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
>>> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
>>> =20
>>> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
>>> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20=

>>> The receiver would accept
>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
>>> and then silently discards
>>> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
>>> with no way to come back to sync.
>>> =20
>>> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>>> =20
>>> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and =
plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value =
and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve =
the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>>> =20
>>> Ulrich
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
>>> To: ext=20
>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>=20
>>> Cc:=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>> =20
>>> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number =
always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement =
that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is =
probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in =
itself, an interop requirement.
>>> =20
>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM,=20
>>> <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>>  wrote:
>>> =20
>>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", =
it is a case for a "MUST".
>>> We are not violating anything.
>>> =20
>>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter =
interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any =
MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids =
interop issues.
>>> =20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Ben Campbell [
>>> mailto:ben@nostrum.com
>>> ]=20
>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc : Steve Donovan;=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>> =20
>>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to =
meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an =
implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level =
requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>> =20
>>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it =
is
>>>   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which =
has
>>>   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>> =20
>>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we =
expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would =
be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then =
add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a =
timestamp is a good way to do this.
>>> =20
>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM,=20
>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>  wrote:
>>> =20
>>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use =
case to mandate a specific semantic.
>>> =20
>>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it =
is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>> =20
>>> Lionel
>>> =20
>>> De : DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>> ] De la part de Steve Donovan
>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
>>> =C0 :=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>> =20
>>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation =
decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  =
That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>> =20
>>> Steve
>>> =20
>>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>>> I also agree.
>>> =20
>>> Regards,
>>> Nirav.
>>> =20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>=20
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>>> To:=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>> =20
>>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>> =20
>>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of =
this sequence-number.
>>> =20
>>> Lionel
>>> =20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>> ]
>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>> Cc :=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>> =20
>>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>> =20
>>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>>    =46rom the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number =
AVP MUST
>>>    be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>>    control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the =
AVP
>>>    is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is =
only
>>>    required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>>    Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>>    sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>>    related or correlated.
>>> =20
>>>    When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>>    greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>>    endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of =
the
>>>    NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are =
out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit =
NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was =
created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time =
of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =
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References: <057.2153d3a0ed57933cb4ec7468d82db1d9@trac.tools.ietf.org> <A27A0204-5080-46F6-B1F4-B4FE1CB1AD5D@gmail.com> <889030ED-A32B-442D-BE2D-674950AA769E@nostrum.com> <B28458B2-D601-4914-B51D-C05C61B3DCB8@gmail.com> <61BD40D6-20C5-4F47-876D-27E2D323C241@nostrum.com> <97EF76DD-0AAA-458C-90E4-A16443E5B06B@gmail.com> <F8DA59C4-65A5-44B5-8DD9-AEDA8F04C32D@nostrum.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772FEF@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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That's fine with me. I don't think we have to specify what to do for =
every possible way a peer can mess up, but it doesn't hurt to do so =
here.

So on reflection, there's a couple of approaches here:

a) Go ahead and allow 0, but still use the Validity-Duration as the =
"official" way to turn off an overload condition. A "0" would create an =
overload state of "overloaded, zero reduction", which seems nonsensical =
but harmless, other than possibly causing strange things to show up in =
logs or alarms.

b) Ignore the OLR due to the invalid value.

I lean towards b, to be consistent with my comments about values > 100. =
This will create a side effect, however, that if a peer sends 0 in the =
expectation of turning off the reduction, it will have no effect and the =
previous Reduction-Percentage will stand.=20



On Feb 11, 2014, at 7:53 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Ben,
> =20
> This approach sounds reasonable to me.
> But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a =
Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I =
presume it should be discarded by client.
> =20
> Regards
> /MCruz
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
> To: Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?
> =20
> So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related =
discussion about handling invalid values):
> =20
> Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:
> =20
> Old:
> =20
> Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., 24 =
hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated as =
if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.
> =20
> New:
> =20
> Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid =
validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP =
were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing =
overload condition has ended and that the reporting node is in a stable =
condition.
> =20
> Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:
> =20
> Old:
> =20
>  The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one =
hundred (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The =
value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node =
is under a severe load and ceases to process any new messages. The =
Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be present in an overload report that uses =
the default abatement algorithm.
> =20
> Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the =
Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no =
overload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a =
OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate the end of an =
overload condition. [Section 4.5]
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Just post it here.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Ben,
>=20
> Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>=20
> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing =
overload
> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement =
algorithm.
> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not =
make
> sense for all future ones.)
>=20
> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending the
> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>=20
>=20
> I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two =
reasons:
>=20
> 1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific =
to algorithms that use reduction percentage.)
>=20
> 2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes =
semantically identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This =
allows a simpler implementation.
>=20
>=20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Oops, this is what I get for responding before I finish reading the =
whole thread. I think that particular horse has been sufficiently =
beaten.

On Feb 14, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

> That's fine with me. I don't think we have to specify what to do for =
every possible way a peer can mess up, but it doesn't hurt to do so =
here.
>=20
> So on reflection, there's a couple of approaches here:
>=20
> a) Go ahead and allow 0, but still use the Validity-Duration as the =
"official" way to turn off an overload condition. A "0" would create an =
overload state of "overloaded, zero reduction", which seems nonsensical =
but harmless, other than possibly causing strange things to show up in =
logs or alarms.
>=20
> b) Ignore the OLR due to the invalid value.
>=20
> I lean towards b, to be consistent with my comments about values > =
100. This will create a side effect, however, that if a peer sends 0 in =
the expectation of turning off the reduction, it will have no effect and =
the previous Reduction-Percentage will stand.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 7:53 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Ben,
>>=20
>> This approach sounds reasonable to me.
>> But I would like to clarify what should be the behavior if a =
Reduction-Percentage=3D0 is received. This is an invalid value, then I =
presume it should be discarded by client.
>>=20
>> Regards
>> /MCruz
>>=20
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
>> Sent: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 0:56
>> To: Jouni Korhonen
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?
>>=20
>> So, here's some proposed text. (intentionally ignoring the related =
discussion about handling invalid values):
>>=20
>> Section 4.5, first paragraph, last 2 sentences:
>>=20
>> Old:
>>=20
>> Validity duration values 0 (i.e., 0 seconds) and above 86400 (i.e., =
24 hours) MUST NOT be used. Invalid validity duration values are treated =
as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP were not present.
>>=20
>> New:
>>=20
>> Validity duration values above 86400 MUST NOT be used. Invalid =
validity duration values are treated as if the OC-Validity-Duration AVP =
were not present. A value of zero (0) indicates that an existing =
overload condition has ended and that the reporting node is in a stable =
condition.
>>=20
>> Section 4.7, 2nd paragraph:
>>=20
>> Old:
>>=20
>> The value of the Reduction-Percentage AVP is between one (1) and one =
hundred (100).  Values greater than 100 are interpreted as 100.  The =
value of 100 means that no traffic is expected, i.e. the reporting node =
is under a severe load and ceases to process any new messages. The =
Reduction-Percentage AVP MUST be present in an overload report that uses =
the default abatement algorithm.
>>=20
>> Note that there is no zero (0) value defined for the =
Reduction-Percentage AVP. A zero value would logically indicate that no =
overload abatement is requested. Instead, reporting nodes use a =
OC-Validity-Duration AVP value of zero (0) to indicate the end of an =
overload condition. [Section 4.5]
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Just post it here.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:25 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Okay. Does that mean we should assign the issue to me in the tracker?
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Ben,
>>=20
>> Propose some text and we can see how it fits in.
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:54 PM, dime issue tracker =
<trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
>>=20
>> Section 4.5 disallows a validity duration of zero. Why do we want to
>> disallow that? It would allow a quick way of ending any existing =
overload
>> condition without worrying about the semantics of the abatement =
algorithm.
>> (We currently use a reduction percentage of zero to end an overload
>> condition--but that's specific to the loss algorithm and might not =
make
>> sense for all future ones.)
>>=20
>> Right. Avoiding two ways of ending overload condition was the reason.
>> I am OK to have validity duration 0 as an additional method ending =
the
>> overload condition based on the reasoning above.
>>=20
>>=20
>> I would go further and make duration 0 the _preferred_ way, for two =
reasons:
>>=20
>> 1) It's algorithm independent. (reduction-percentage of 0 is specific =
to algorithms that use reduction percentage.)
>>=20
>> 2) Explicit signaling of the end of an overload condition becomes =
semantically identical to the expiration of an overload condition. This =
allows a simpler implementation.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20


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To: "ext lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:53 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> In other words, I think that we should have the following cases:
>=20
> -	non-zero reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid
> -	0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid (not blocking)
> -	0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid
> -	non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Invalid
>=20
> Does it make sense?


I don't think so.

The idea is that setting Validity-Period to zero ends an overload =
condition, without regard to the algorithm. Reduction-Percentage is =
specific to the default algorithm. I don't think we need to create an =
algorithm-specific rule here, at least not normatively. So I would say =
that a Validity-Period of zero ends overload, without regard to the =
algorithm, or any algorithm specific values.

I recognize that interacts with my previous comment about ignoring OLRs =
that have invalid Reduction-Percentage values, in that you could have =
silly things like [reduction-percentage=3D14732, validity-period=3D0]. =
In that case, I think the validity period would take precedent over the =
invalid reduction-percentage.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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On Feb 12, 2014, at 2:14 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> I understand your point but I'm not really convinced.
>=20
> 1. implicit indications (like answer message with result code TOO_BUSY =
and without piggybacked OLR or Lack of response) should be taken into =
account by reacting nodes independent from DOIC-support of the server.
> 2. How would the reacting node know whether the OC-Supported-Features =
AVP received in an answer indicates the features supported by the server =
(identified by the origin-host received in the answer) or the features =
supported by an agent on the path?=20
>=20

I think that, if an agent inserts OC-Supported-Features, that makes the =
agent the overload endpoint. If upstream servers that do not implement =
DOIC show implicit signs of overload, one hopes that agent will take =
action (whether that action means rejecting traffic, or originating an =
OLR back towards the client.)

So in this case, the reacting nodes peer "overload endpoint" is the =
agent. It knows the peer overload endpoint supports DOIC, and behaves =
accordingly.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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On Feb 14, 2014, at 8:59 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> I think that two points are mixed:
>=20
> 1) For efficiency, a DOIC-enabled client should be able to mitigate =
(possible) overload situation even if explicit indication is not =
received from the network.
> 2) DOIC-enabled clients having a different behavior regarding support =
or not of DOIC by server.
>=20
> if I agree with the first one, I disagree with the second one. The =
basic assumption is that a DOIC client will not throttle the traffic in =
absence of overload indication (explicit or implicit). And throttling =
will be performed as soon as an indication is received (explicit or =
implicit) if the client is designed for that (it supports DOIC or/and =
default behavior has been defined on reception of TOO_BUSY or =
non-response).
>=20
> It is the only thing that matters today.

I disagree, for  reasons stated earlier. In summary, the requirement =
that reacting nodes be able to take different action depending on =
whether an opposite endpoint supports DOIC is a direct implication of =
requirements 16 and 18 of RFC 7068.=


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
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I actually prefer making it mandatory. The cost of adding it is =
trivial--even more so for a reporting node that only supports the =
default. The value of having it is less opportunity for interop errors.

On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:

>=20
> Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there
> because at the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry
> on every extra AVP ;-)
>=20
> I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value
> just like it is now. We have the same for the reduction
> percentage and the validity time as well.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" =
<jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Mcruz
>>=20
>> The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is of =
type Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference.=20
>> We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where =
statistically the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped =
OLR-AVP containing a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a =
small optimization.
>>=20
>> Best regards
>>=20
>> JJacques=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
lionel.morand@orange.com
>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:46
>> =C0 : dime@ietf.org; maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>=20
>> Hi Maria Cruz,
>>=20
>> I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?
>>=20
>> So instead of:
>>=20
>>  OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>             < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>             [ OC-Report-Type ]
>>             [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>             [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>           * [ AVP ]
>>=20
>> You would prefer:
>>=20
>>  OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>             < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>             { OC-Report-Type }
>>             [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>             [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>           * [ AVP ]
>>=20
>> And I'm fine with this proposal.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue =
tracker Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:26 =C0 : =
maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com Cc : dime@ietf.org Objet : [Dime] =
[dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>=20
>> #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>=20
>> Now in chapter 4.6:
>>=20
>>   The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
>>   report).
>>=20
>> This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise =
that  we define this AVP as mandatory.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> =
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>>    Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
>> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>>                                              |   Keywords:
>> =
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>=20
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> =
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>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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(Apologies for coming late to this thread)

On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)
> What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed =
requests.  I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as =
such.
>=20

At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly =
mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the =
mixed-state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed =
requests.=20

> I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of =
the realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this =
issue.
>=20

I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If =
so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?

> Steve


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be	ignored
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On Feb 10, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> I agree that a clarification is needed on what it means to be "treated =
as is the OC-Validity-Duration AVP was not present".  It would e better =
to say:
>=20
>   "Invalid validity duration values are given the default value".
>=20
>=20

+1.

I recognize this is different from what I said about reduction =
percentage. My reasoning is, if the sender includes an invalid duration, =
we don't know the intended duration. But since there is a default =
duration, we can assume it. Reduction-Percentage, however, has no such =
default (nor should it.). If we get an invalid reduction percentage, we =
really have no idea what the sender intended us to do.


>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/10/14 11:29 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> Hi Steve,
>> =20
>> About the OC-Validity-Reduction AVP values greater than 24 hours, it =
is said that the default value 5s applies.
>> =20
>> I was therefore wondering if it should be also considered as an error =
and therefore discarded. It is a real open question. Not an issue per se =
as I'm fine with the existing text. I was reacting on the reason for =
change explained by Ben.
>> =20
>> Regards,
>> =20
>> Lionel
>> =20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>> Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 17:59
>> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 =
should be ignored
>> =20
>> It is possible, the range defined is zero to 24 hours.  I think the =
text is correct as it says that a value out of this range should be =
ignored.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> =20
>> On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> =20
>> Hi Ben,
>> =20
>> OK with this statement.
>> But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration should =
apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?
>> =20
>> =20
>> I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an invalid =
OC-Validity-Duration value?
>> =20
>> Lionel
>> =20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue =
tracker
>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:05
>> =C0 : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 =
should be ignored
>> =20
>> #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
>> =20
>> Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 are
>> interpreted as 100."
>> =20
>> An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value =
indicates
>> incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not =
safe
>> to assume we know what the sender really intended.
>> =20
>> --=20
>> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
>> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
>> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
>> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
>> Severity:  Active WG    |
>>  Document               |
>> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
>> =20
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>> =20
>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>> =20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>> =20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>> =20
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>> =20
>> =20
>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>=20
>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
>> Thank you.
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From nobody Fri Feb 14 15:29:29 2014
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Subject: [Dime] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Diameter Maintenance and Extensions Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Diameter Group Signaling
        Authors         : Mark Jones
                          Marco Liebsch
                          Lionel Morand
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03.txt
	Pages           : 28
	Date            : 2014-02-14

Abstract:
   In large network deployments, a single Diameter peer can support over
   a million concurrent Diameter sessions.  Recent use cases have
   revealed the need for Diameter peers to apply the same operation to a
   large group of Diameter sessions concurrently.  The Diameter base
   protocol commands operate on a single session so these use cases
   could result in many thousands of command exchanges to enforce the
   same operation on each session in the group.  In order to reduce
   signaling, it would be desirable to enable bulk operations on all (or
   part of) the sessions managed by a Diameter peer using a single or a
   few command exchanges.  This document specifies the Diameter protocol
   extensions to achieve this signaling optimization.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
Thread-Index: AQHPKdEKa0SZ1wdbvEGvoj4P8RAtnpq10DMg
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 06:14:50 +0000
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References: <066.d4a6efb42ff3bd328e8b56b872c4e1a7@trac.tools.ietf.org> <41DC79BF-FFD9-4C17-B61D-8BDFE7D446A8@gmail.com> <18673_1392030932_52F8B4D4_18673_1082_2_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4970F3@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <0D5BD3F3-8797-4479-BC3D-61671D8D8AFF@gmail.com> <24932_1392032199_52F8B9C7_24932_4247_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49718B@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F8EB36.9050501@usdonovans.com> <902CE93A-75C4-4A3F-AD76-DF9C03064BE1@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2DA9@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <D4982697-ECA2-4118-8AFE-835A0B04EE46@nostrum.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209773173@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B2E9B@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097741D5@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3009@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52FCC20F.5000900@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3556@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <1! 0158_1392389206_52FE2C56_10158_1176_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4A3A41@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B35D0@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <A4AC97CE-10C3-401A-83CB-B60FD2B395D6@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
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   REQ 16: The solution is likely to be deployed incrementally.  The
           solution MUST support a mixed environment where some, but not
           all, nodes implement it.

   REQ 18: In a mixed environment of nodes that support the solution and
           nodes that do not, the solution MUST NOT preclude elements
           that support overload control from treating elements that do
           not support overload control in an equitable fashion relative
           to those that do.  Users and operators of nodes that do not
           support the solution MUST NOT unfairly benefit from the
           solution.  The solution specification SHOULD provide guidance
           to implementors for dealing with elements not supporting
           overload control.

Theses requirements are also fulfilled if servers or agents are able to han=
dle clients that do not support DOIC and if client and agents are able to r=
eact to implicit overload indication received from the network.

In summary, I really don't see what is missing.

Lionel


-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 14 f=E9vrier 2014 23:07
=C0=A0: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messag=
es


On Feb 14, 2014, at 8:59 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

> I think that two points are mixed:
>=20
> 1) For efficiency, a DOIC-enabled client should be able to mitigate (poss=
ible) overload situation even if explicit indication is not received from t=
he network.
> 2) DOIC-enabled clients having a different behavior regarding support or =
not of DOIC by server.
>=20
> if I agree with the first one, I disagree with the second one. The basic =
assumption is that a DOIC client will not throttle the traffic in absence o=
f overload indication (explicit or implicit). And throttling will be perfor=
med as soon as an indication is received (explicit or implicit) if the clie=
nt is designed for that (it supports DOIC or/and default behavior has been =
defined on reception of TOO_BUSY or non-response).
>=20
> It is the only thing that matters today.

I disagree, for  reasons stated earlier. In summary, the requirement that r=
eacting nodes be able to take different action depending on whether an oppo=
site endpoint supports DOIC is a direct implication of requirements 16 and =
18 of RFC 7068.

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


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References: <20140214084329.10393.78739.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52FDDD10.1050306@restena.lu>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [radext] New Version Notification for draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
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  Some comments:

Section 3:

   ... EAP-
   Response/Identity does not carry encoding information itself, so a
   conversion between a non-UTF-8 encoding and UTF-8 is not possible for
   the AAA entity doing the EAP-Response/Identity to User-Name copying.

  I'm unsure about this.  The EAP-Response/Identity field is *supposed*
to be UTF-8.  So if it's not, the supplicant is non-compliant, and
anything can happen.

  I think the recommendation here for EAP to RADIUS gateways (e.g.
Access Points) is to do as little translation as possible.  They should
just copy the Identity blob into the User-Name attribute.

  The next paragraph does explain why this is a problem, but the quoted
text above seems misleading to me.  The AAA entity *can* copy the
EAP-Response/Identity to User-Name.  It's just data, so that copying is
always possible.


   Consequence: If an EAP method's username is not encoded in UTF-8, and

  I would suggest "user identifier", to avoid confusion with User-Name.

   the EAP peer verbatimly uses that method's notion of a username for
   its EAP-Response/Identity field, then the AAA entity is forced to
   violate its own specification because it has to, but can not use
   UTF-8 for its own User-Name attribute.  This jeopardizes the
   subsequent EAP authentication as a whole; request routing may fail or
   lead to a wrong destinationi, or the AAA payload may be discarded by
   the recipient due to the malformedness of the User-Name attribute.


  That is all true.  I would note that the EAP-Response/Identity field
does *not* have to be taken from the EAP methods user identifier field.
 They can be completely different.

  That should be noted here.  Where the EAP methods user identifier
field is *not* UTF-8, the supplicant MUST provide a UTF-8 compatible
string for the EAP-Response/Identity field.  How it gets that string is
implementation dependent. :(

Section 4:

   Where usernames between configured EAP types in an EAP peer differ,
   the EAP peer can not rely on the EAP type negotiation mechanism alone
   to provide useful results.  If an EAP authentication gets rejected,
   the EAP peer SHOULD re-try the authentication using a different EAP-
   Response/Identity than before.  The EAP peer SHOULD try all usernames
   from the entire set of configured EAP types before declaring final
   authentication failure.

  I see why this can be necessary, but it's ugly.

   EAP peers need to maintain state on the encoding of the usernames
   which are used in their locally configured EAP types.  When
   constructing an EAP-Response/Identity from that username information,
   they SHOULD (re-)encode that username as UTF-8 and use the resulting
   value for the EAP-Response/Identity.  If the EAP type is configured
   for the use of anonymous outer identities, the desired outer identity
   should also be (re-)encoded in UTF-8 encoding before being put into
   the EAP-Response/Identity.

 I would add "or allow the provisioning of an EAP-Response/Identity
field independent form the EAP method user identifier"

Section 5

  It may be worth noting that supplicants should try the most secure EAP
methods first (i.e. ones with anonymous outer identity).  If those fail,
they should proceed to more insecure methods.  This prevents leakage.

  Also, supplicants could cache information about successful
authentications.  If the system appears to be "the same" as one where
EAP method X previously worked, it makes sense to start off with EAP
method X.

  How the supplicant determines that this is "the same" system is a
subject for discussion.

  Alan DeKok.


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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:02:15 +0100
From: Stefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu>
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To: Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [radext] New Version Notification for draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
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Hi,

> Section 3:
>=20
>    ... EAP-
>    Response/Identity does not carry encoding information itself, so a
>    conversion between a non-UTF-8 encoding and UTF-8 is not possible fo=
r
>    the AAA entity doing the EAP-Response/Identity to User-Name copying.=

>=20
>   I'm unsure about this.  The EAP-Response/Identity field is *supposed*=

> to be UTF-8.  So if it's not, the supplicant is non-compliant, and
> anything can happen.

Unfortunately, that is not how I read the EAP spec. RFC3748 section 5.1
on the "Identity" packet does not mention UTF-8 for the *Response* at all=
=2E

It mentions that the *request* MAY contain displayable text, which needs
to be UTF-8 if present.

For response, no encoding is mandated. The RFC even mentions weirdnesses
such as an intermediate NUL character followed by "various options" -
but only notes them, they are not forbidden. The use of such a construct
breaks the UTF-8 requirement.

I totally agree that anything besides UTF-8 in the Response is a bad
idea, and these days hopefully a seldom find - but it should be said
someplace that it's outright forbidden.

Which reminds me that my text speaks of SHOULD NOT in the
recommendations (given that I've preliminarily aimed for BCP status, I
found a MUST NOT not to be fitting; but maybe it is more spot on
nontheless).

>   I think the recommendation here for EAP to RADIUS gateways (e.g.
> Access Points) is to do as little translation as possible.  They should=

> just copy the Identity blob into the User-Name attribute.

And do what if they find that the blob is not UTF-8? Drop the packet?
Forward anyway?

>   The next paragraph does explain why this is a problem, but the quoted=

> text above seems misleading to me.  The AAA entity *can* copy the
> EAP-Response/Identity to User-Name.  It's just data, so that copying is=

> always possible.

Sure; but you create a malformed packet with it - so everybody who
consumes that data is at a gamble.

>    Consequence: If an EAP method's username is not encoded in UTF-8, an=
d
>=20
>   I would suggest "user identifier", to avoid confusion with User-Name.=


Sure, no problem.

>    the EAP peer verbatimly uses that method's notion of a username for
>    its EAP-Response/Identity field, then the AAA entity is forced to
>    violate its own specification because it has to, but can not use
>    UTF-8 for its own User-Name attribute.  This jeopardizes the
>    subsequent EAP authentication as a whole; request routing may fail o=
r
>    lead to a wrong destinationi, or the AAA payload may be discarded by=

>    the recipient due to the malformedness of the User-Name attribute.
>=20
>=20
>   That is all true.  I would note that the EAP-Response/Identity field
> does *not* have to be taken from the EAP methods user identifier field.=

>  They can be completely different.

Will do (the completely different content would be the outer identity).

>   That should be noted here.  Where the EAP methods user identifier
> field is *not* UTF-8, the supplicant MUST provide a UTF-8 compatible
> string for the EAP-Response/Identity field.  How it gets that string is=

> implementation dependent. :(

Yes, that's why I wrote the (somewhat hollow) statement that it "needs
to maintain state of the encoding used". How it does that... no spec can
mandate.

> Section 4:
>=20
>    Where usernames between configured EAP types in an EAP peer differ,
>    the EAP peer can not rely on the EAP type negotiation mechanism alon=
e
>    to provide useful results.  If an EAP authentication gets rejected,
>    the EAP peer SHOULD re-try the authentication using a different EAP-=

>    Response/Identity than before.  The EAP peer SHOULD try all username=
s
>    from the entire set of configured EAP types before declaring final
>    authentication failure.
>=20
>   I see why this can be necessary, but it's ugly.

I totally agree that it's ugly. Adding "Note: That is ugly." to the spec
doesn't provide much added value though :-)

I feel strong about stating the problem though. We had an actual
real-life support case from a device manufacturer whose handset
customers couldn't use eduroam and the manufacturer said our RADIUS
infrastructure is broken, because it always rejects before they can even
try the configured EAP-TTLS that the user sets.

It was totally unthinkable for them that someone would not have a
business relationship with 3GPP and that always trying the same 3GPP
user identifier when starting EAP would lead nowhere.

After a lot of explaining and escalation to some senior engineering, we
could make that clear, and the firmware got a fix. Having this described
in an RFC to point to will certainly help if such states of mind pop up
again someplace in the future.

>    EAP peers need to maintain state on the encoding of the usernames
>    which are used in their locally configured EAP types.  When
>    constructing an EAP-Response/Identity from that username information=
,
>    they SHOULD (re-)encode that username as UTF-8 and use the resulting=

>    value for the EAP-Response/Identity.  If the EAP type is configured
>    for the use of anonymous outer identities, the desired outer identit=
y
>    should also be (re-)encoded in UTF-8 encoding before being put into
>    the EAP-Response/Identity.
>=20
>  I would add "or allow the provisioning of an EAP-Response/Identity
> field independent form the EAP method user identifier"

Well... that degree of freedom exists - outer ID *is* independent from
the EAP method's user identifier.

I'm not sure what the effect of this (third!) notion of (non-)identity
could add? The example of the 3GPP vs. realm.example shows that there
may well be *no* common EAP-Response/Identity which actually fits all
configured EAP types.

> Section 5
>=20
>   It may be worth noting that supplicants should try the most secure EA=
P
> methods first (i.e. ones with anonymous outer identity).  If those fail=
,
> they should proceed to more insecure methods.  This prevents leakage.

Good idea!

>   Also, supplicants could cache information about successful
> authentications.  If the system appears to be "the same" as one where
> EAP method X previously worked, it makes sense to start off with EAP
> method X.
>=20
>   How the supplicant determines that this is "the same" system is a
> subject for discussion.

Interesting thought, and a bit complex. I suggest we discuss this when
the draft gets adopted in ... "some" working group. Suggestions welcome :=
-)

Greetings,

Stefan Winter


--=20
Stefan WINTER
Ingenieur de Recherche
Fondation RESTENA - R=C3=A9seau T=C3=A9l=C3=A9informatique de l'Education=
 Nationale et
de la Recherche
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L-1359 Luxembourg

Tel: +352 424409 1
Fax: +352 422473

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From nobody Mon Feb 17 05:37:07 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [radext] New Version Notification for draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
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Stefan Winter wrote:
> Unfortunately, that is not how I read the EAP spec. RFC3748 section 5.1
> on the "Identity" packet does not mention UTF-8 for the *Response* at all.
> 
> It mentions that the *request* MAY contain displayable text, which needs
> to be UTF-8 if present.

  That's worse than I remembered.

> For response, no encoding is mandated. The RFC even mentions weirdnesses
> such as an intermediate NUL character followed by "various options" -
> but only notes them, they are not forbidden. The use of such a construct
> breaks the UTF-8 requirement.
> 
> I totally agree that anything besides UTF-8 in the Response is a bad
> idea, and these days hopefully a seldom find - but it should be said
> someplace that it's outright forbidden.

  I agree.

>>   I think the recommendation here for EAP to RADIUS gateways (e.g.
>> Access Points) is to do as little translation as possible.  They should
>> just copy the Identity blob into the User-Name attribute.
> 
> And do what if they find that the blob is not UTF-8? Drop the packet?
> Forward anyway?

  Forward anyways.  It's what they do now.  We can't mandate that 10^9
EAP supplicants upgrade.  It's probably easier to fix the AAA
infrastructure to work with broken clients.

> I feel strong about stating the problem though. We had an actual
> real-life support case from a device manufacturer whose handset
> customers couldn't use eduroam and the manufacturer said our RADIUS
> infrastructure is broken, because it always rejects before they can even
> try the configured EAP-TTLS that the user sets.

  Weird.

> It was totally unthinkable for them that someone would not have a
> business relationship with 3GPP and that always trying the same 3GPP
> user identifier when starting EAP would lead nowhere.

  That's just dumb.  The way sane vendors deal with this is that they
allow the user to choose which identity to use.  It's ridiculous for the
vendor to force a particular identity on the user / device.

> After a lot of explaining and escalation to some senior engineering, we
> could make that clear, and the firmware got a fix. Having this described
> in an RFC to point to will certainly help if such states of mind pop up
> again someplace in the future.

  Yes.  The RFCs are unfortunately silent on a wide variety of topics.
RFC 2865 even says:

      The secret MUST NOT be empty (length 0) since this would allow
      packets to be trivially forged.

  Because I ran into a vendor who didn't allow admins to set a shared
secret... and always used a zero-length string.  It *was* allowed in RFC
2158.  I poked the RADIUS WG, and everyone was appalled.

>>  I would add "or allow the provisioning of an EAP-Response/Identity
>> field independent form the EAP method user identifier"
> 
> Well... that degree of freedom exists - outer ID *is* independent from
> the EAP method's user identifier.

  The idea was to allow *provisioning* of the Response/Identity.
Automatically deriving it from the method-specific "user identity" is
just as bad as automatically using a 3GPP identity.

> Interesting thought, and a bit complex. I suggest we discuss this when
> the draft gets adopted in ... "some" working group. Suggestions welcome :-)

  I'd support a "roaming inter-operations" WG.  Some of the documents
now in RADEXT could move there, and maybe DIME.  This document could
live there.

  The goal for the WG would be to define inter-domain standards for
authentication, accounting, EAP, etc.

  Alan DeKok.


From nobody Mon Feb 17 08:04:32 2014
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#55: Lack of overload control for realm overload condition

 The current definition of behavior for the handling of the realm overload
 report types is to throttle only requests that contain the realm (in the
 destination-realm) indicated in the realm overload report but do not
 contain a destination-host AVP.  This is really throttling of "realm
 routed requests", not throttling of traffic to the realm.

 Requirement 31 in the Diameter Overload requirements defined in RFC 7068
 includes the must requirement to be able to handle overload of the realm.
 The current draft does not address this requirement as there is currently
 no way to indicate that a realm is overloaded and to request throttling of
 all traffic to that realm.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  srdonovan@usdonovans.com           |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/55>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


From nobody Mon Feb 17 08:13:32 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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I do think it would be a new report type, as it would require different
behavior from reacting nodes.

I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks this
is the correct approach.  We are creating a good number of relatively
small extensions.  It might lead to the need to pull them all together
in a future version of the DOIC draft/RFC.

Steve

On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> (Apologies for coming late to this thread)
>
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)
>> What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.  I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.
>>
> At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. 
>
>> I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.
>>
> I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?
>
>> Steve
>


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<html>
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I do think it would be a
      new report type, as it would require different behavior from reacting
      nodes.<br>
      <br>
      I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks
      this is the correct approach.&nbsp; We are creating a good number of
      relatively small extensions.&nbsp; It might lead to the need to pull
      them all together in a future version of the DOIC draft/RFC.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:D4BE67F7-6D7B-4DB2-8DF0-D430A8FC6582@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">(Apologies for coming late to this thread)

On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)
What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.  I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. 

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Steve
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------090500070603070303040602--


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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+1
On 2/14/14 3:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:53 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>
>> In other words, I think that we should have the following cases:
>>
>> -	non-zero reduction, non-zero validity period => Valid
>> -	0 reduction, non-zero validity period => Valid (not blocking)
>> -	0 reduction, 0 validity period => Valid
>> -	non-zero reduction, 0 validity period => Invalid
>>
>> Does it make sense?
>
> I don't think so.
>
> The idea is that setting Validity-Period to zero ends an overload condition, without regard to the algorithm. Reduction-Percentage is specific to the default algorithm. I don't think we need to create an algorithm-specific rule here, at least not normatively. So I would say that a Validity-Period of zero ends overload, without regard to the algorithm, or any algorithm specific values.
>
> I recognize that interacts with my previous comment about ignoring OLRs that have invalid Reduction-Percentage values, in that you could have silly things like [reduction-percentage=14732, validity-period=0]. In that case, I think the validity period would take precedent over the invalid reduction-percentage.
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/14/14 3:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:83E6BED2-035D-4C26-A1AF-9F833B1070C5@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">In other words, I think that we should have the following cases:

-	non-zero reduction, non-zero validity period =&gt; Valid
-	0 reduction, non-zero validity period =&gt; Valid (not blocking)
-	0 reduction, 0 validity period =&gt; Valid
-	non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =&gt; Invalid

Does it make sense?
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

I don't think so.

The idea is that setting Validity-Period to zero ends an overload condition, without regard to the algorithm. Reduction-Percentage is specific to the default algorithm. I don't think we need to create an algorithm-specific rule here, at least not normatively. So I would say that a Validity-Period of zero ends overload, without regard to the algorithm, or any algorithm specific values.

I recognize that interacts with my previous comment about ignoring OLRs that have invalid Reduction-Percentage values, in that you could have silly things like [reduction-percentage=14732, validity-period=0]. In that case, I think the validity period would take precedent over the invalid reduction-percentage.

_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

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From nobody Mon Feb 17 08:39:23 2014
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From: Josh Howlett <Josh.Howlett@ja.net>
To: Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>, Stefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu>
Thread-Topic: [radext] New Version Notification for draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
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>
>> Interesting thought, and a bit complex. I suggest we discuss this when
>> the draft gets adopted in ... "some" working group. Suggestions welcome
>>:-)
>
>  I'd support a "roaming inter-operations" WG.  Some of the documents
>now in RADEXT could move there, and maybe DIME.  This document could
>live there.
>
>  The goal for the WG would be to define inter-domain standards for
>authentication, accounting, EAP, etc.

+1, excellent idea. draft-wierenga-ietf-eduroam, if generalised, could
provide a good basis on which to define the issues that need addressing.
If it were broader than "roaming" then ABFAB could also fall into scope.

Josh.



Janet(UK) is a trading name of Jisc Collections and Janet Limited, a=20
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Hi

I am OK with the 3 first Lionel's statements.

Regarding the 4th one (non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Invalid),=
 I think that, as Ben proposed,  the zero validity  period prevails whateve=
r the value of traffic reduction %.

Best regards

JJacques



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:19
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

+1
On 2/14/14 3:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:



On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:53 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com> wrote:



In other words, I think that we should have the following cases:



-  non-zero reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid

-  0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid (not blocking)

-  0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid

-  non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Invalid



Does it make sense?





I don't think so.



The idea is that setting Validity-Period to zero ends an overload condition=
, without regard to the algorithm. Reduction-Percentage is specific to the =
default algorithm. I don't think we need to create an algorithm-specific ru=
le here, at least not normatively. So I would say that a Validity-Period of=
 zero ends overload, without regard to the algorithm, or any algorithm spec=
ific values.



I recognize that interacts with my previous comment about ignoring OLRs tha=
t have invalid Reduction-Percentage values, in that you could have silly th=
ings like [reduction-percentage=3D14732, validity-period=3D0]. In that case=
, I think the validity period would take precedent over the invalid reducti=
on-percentage.



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am OK with the 3 first =
Lionel&#8217;s statements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regarding the 4<sup>th</s=
up> one (non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Invalid), I think th=
at, as Ben proposed, &nbsp;the zero validity &nbsp;period prevails whatever
 the value of traffic reduction %. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
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0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bou=
nces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:19<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 =
disallowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#43;1<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/14/14 3:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:53 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>In other words, I think that we should have the following cases:<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-&nbsp; non-zero reduction, non-zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>-&nbsp; 0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D&gt; Valid (not block=
ing)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-&nbsp; 0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Valid<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-&nbsp; non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D&gt; Invalid<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Does it make sense?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I don't think so.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The idea is that setting Validity-Period to zero ends an overload cond=
ition, without regard to the algorithm. Reduction-Percentage is specific to=
 the default algorithm. I don't think we need to create an algorithm-specif=
ic rule here, at least not normatively. So I would say that a Validity-Peri=
od of zero ends overload, without regard to the algorithm, or any algorithm=
 specific values.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I recognize that interacts with my previous comment about ignoring OLR=
s that have invalid Reduction-Percentage values, in that you could have sil=
ly things like [reduction-percentage=3D14732, validity-period=3D0]. In that=
 case, I think the validity period would take precedent over the invalid re=
duction-percentage.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 17:53:14 +0000
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References: <066.b54c2f5aeb31c9b3f88c96008120290d@trac.tools.ietf.org> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D202663C4A@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772EF4@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <19874_1392116210_52FA01F2_19874_3990_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E499C4E@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209773085@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52FA3CC6.905020 5@usdonovans.com> <17910_1392132298_52FA40CA_17910_2863_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A28D@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <11546_1392132645_52FA4225_11546_3173_1_0aa80fb0-8382-459e-aebf-2ee5d5f70edc@PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026644D6@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <D2D4DD91-8F3D-4C24-9E3A-E2AE3918D468@gmail.com> <52FCBBF7.7000700@usdonovans.com> <D4BE67F7-6D7B-4DB2-8DF0-D430A8FC6582@nostrum.com> <5302351F.6050902@usdonovans.com>
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Hi

I share the view to analyze the overload of the realm as a whole in a separ=
ate extension  and see if this lead to another report type.

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:13
=C0 : Ben Campbell
Cc : dime@ietf.org list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I do think it would be a new report type, as it would require different beh=
avior from reacting nodes.

I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks this is =
the correct approach.  We are creating a good number of relatively small ex=
tensions.  It might lead to the need to pull them all together in a future =
version of the DOIC draft/RFC.

Steve
On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

(Apologies for coming late to this thread)



On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com><mailt=
o:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:



Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)

What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.  I=
 think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.





At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly me=
ntion that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state=
 problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests.



I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the =
realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.





I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, =
would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?



Steve






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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I share the view to analy=
ze the overload of the realm as a whole in a separate extension &nbsp;and s=
ee if this lead to another report type.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bou=
nces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:13<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I do think it would b=
e a new report type, as it would require different behavior from reacting n=
odes.<br>
<br>
I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks this is =
the correct approach.&nbsp; We are creating a good number of relatively sma=
ll extensions.&nbsp; It might lead to the need to pull them all together in=
 a future version of the DOIC draft/RFC.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>(Apologies for coming late to this thread)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan=
@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed request=
s.&nbsp; I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belated=
ly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-=
state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. <o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of=
 the realm as a whole.&nbsp; I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture thi=
s issue.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If=
 so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 18:08:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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I would like to highlight that my proposal is not related to the default Re=
duction-percentage algo.

Whatever the ago used, I think that an OLR can only be sent for two purpose=
s:
- Send an indication of overload situation
- Send an indication of end of the overload situation

For me, providing both indications in the same message would be a non-sense=
. And I don't understand why the validity period would prevail in that case.

Now, if what is argued by Ben and supported by JJ and Steve is clear for th=
e rest of the group, I will not fight.

Regards,

lionel

De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 18:44
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

Hi
=A0
I am OK with the 3 first Lionel's statements.
=A0
Regarding the 4th one (non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Invalid),=
 I think that, as Ben proposed, =A0the zero validity =A0period prevails wha=
tever the value of traffic reduction %. =A0
=A0
Best regards
=A0
JJacques=20
=A0
=A0
=A0
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:19
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
=A0
+1
On 2/14/14 3:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
=A0
On Feb 14, 2014, at 9:53 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
=A0
In other words, I think that we should have the following cases:
=A0
-=A0 non-zero reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid
-=A0 0 reduction, non-zero validity period =3D> Valid (not blocking)
-=A0 0 reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Valid
-=A0 non-zero reduction, 0 validity period =3D> Invalid
=A0
Does it make sense?
=A0
=A0
I don't think so.
=A0
The idea is that setting Validity-Period to zero ends an overload condition=
, without regard to the algorithm. Reduction-Percentage is specific to the =
default algorithm. I don't think we need to create an algorithm-specific ru=
le here, at least not normatively. So I would say that a Validity-Period of=
 zero ends overload, without regard to the algorithm, or any algorithm spec=
ific values.
=A0
I recognize that interacts with my previous comment about ignoring OLRs tha=
t have invalid Reduction-Percentage values, in that you could have silly th=
ings like [reduction-percentage=3D14732, validity-period=3D0]. In that case=
, I think the validity period would take precedent over the invalid reducti=
on-percentage.
=A0
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
=A0
=A0

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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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On Feb 17, 2014, at 12:08 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:

> I would like to highlight that my proposal is not related to the =
default Reduction-percentage algo.
>=20
> Whatever the ago used, I think that an OLR can only be sent for two =
purposes:
> - Send an indication of overload situation
> - Send an indication of end of the overload situation
>=20
> For me, providing both indications in the same message would be a =
non-sense. And I don't understand why the validity period would prevail =
in that case.

So here's the question: Let's assume a reporting node sends you an OLR =
using the "loss" algorithm, a reduction-percentage of 50%, and a =
Validity-Duration of 10 minutes. 5 minutes later, it sends you a new OLR =
with an invalid reduction percentage and a Validity-Duration of 0.

What's the current overload state?

What if the second OLR used the "rate" algorithm, with a valid value, =
but still had a validity duration of 0. Does that change anything?

I am arguing that, in both cases, the second OLR ends the overload =
period.

I'm actually okay if we have a normative statement to the effect that =
the reporting node MUST NOT send an invalid reduction percentage, and =
that a reacting node MUST ignore an OLR with an invalid value _except_ =
for the case of a validity-duration set to zero.

This all comes down to how much guessing we are willing to do about the =
intent of the sender when one receives an invalid OLR. I think it's =
reasonable to guess that a zero validity duration means to end an =
overload condition, without regard to the rest of the message. I _don't_ =
think it's reasonable to try to guess what the sender meant with an =
invalid reduction percentage, when the validity period is non-zero.

Another, perhaps simpler, approach would be to assert that the reception =
of _any_ invalid OLR automatically ends any existing overload condition. =
(I'm not necessarily arguing for that--it's just something to think =
about.)

>=20
> Now, if what is argued by Ben and supported by JJ and Steve is clear =
for the rest of the group, I will not fight.

... but the fighting is the fun part :-)=


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Hello all,

Overload of the realm is one of the use cases that is required by 3GPP appl=
ications.
And I think this should be part of the basic mechanism, or?

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi

I share the view to analyze the overload of the realm as a whole in a separ=
ate extension  and see if this lead to another report type.

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:13
=C0 : Ben Campbell
Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I do think it would be a new report type, as it would require different beh=
avior from reacting nodes.

I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks this is =
the correct approach.  We are creating a good number of relatively small ex=
tensions.  It might lead to the need to pull them all together in a future =
version of the DOIC draft/RFC.

Steve
On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

(Apologies for coming late to this thread)



On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com><mailt=
o:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:



Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)

What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.  I=
 think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.





At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly me=
ntion that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state=
 problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests.



I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the =
realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.





I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, =
would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?



Steve






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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Overload of the realm is =
one of the use cases that is required by 3GPP applications.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And I think this should b=
e part of the basic mechanism, or?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I share the view to analy=
ze the overload of the realm as a whole in a separate extension &nbsp;and s=
ee if this lead to another report type.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:13<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br=
>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I do think it would b=
e a new report type, as it would require different behavior from reacting n=
odes.<br>
<br>
I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks this is =
the correct approach.&nbsp; We are creating a good number of relatively sma=
ll extensions.&nbsp; It might lead to the need to pull them all together in=
 a future version of the DOIC draft/RFC.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>(Apologies for coming late to this thread)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan=
@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed request=
s.&nbsp; I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belated=
ly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-=
state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. <o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of=
 the realm as a whole.&nbsp; I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture thi=
s issue.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If=
 so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
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#56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

 The description of Overload Control State in clause 5.5.1 is inaccurate,
 incomplete and could be misleading. It does not differentiate between
 Overload Control State in a reacting node versus Overload Control State in
 a reporting node. It also does not describe how Overload Control States
 are maintained.

 It is proposed to replace current text with the following:


 5.5.1.  Overload Control State (OCS)

    5.5.1.1   Overload Control States for reacting nodes

    A reacting node (client) maintains per supported Diameter application
    a host-type Overload Control State for each Destination-Host towards
    which it sends host-type requests and a realm-type Overload Control
 State
    for each Destination-Realm toward which it sends realm-type requests.
    A host-type Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of
    Application-Id and Destination-Host; a realm-type Overload Control
 State
    may be identified by the pair of Application-Id and Destination-Realm.
    The host-type/realm-type Overload Control State for a given pair of
    Application and Destination-Host / Destination-Realm could include the
    information as shown in table 1/table 2.

    <see attachment>

    Agents that take the role of a reacting node on behalf of clients MUST
    maintain Overload Control States per client.

    5.5.1.2   Overload Control States for reporting nodes

    A reporting node (server) maintains per supported Diameter application
    an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which it receives
    requests that contain an (explicit or implicit) indication of
    OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.

    A reporting node (agent that is configured to take the role of a
    reporting node for a given realm) maintains per supported Diameter
    application an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which
 it
    receives realm-type requests (of that given realm) that contain an
    (explicit or implicit) indication of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.

    A Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of Application-
 Id
    and Origin-Host.

    The Overload Control State for a given pair of Application and Origin-
    Host could include the information as shown in table 3.
    <see attachment>

    Note: For nodes that support other features than just OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO
    the Overload Control State definitions may need to be extended.

    5.5.1.3  Maintaining Overload Control States

    Reacting nodes create a host-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
 receiving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of A and a
    host-type OC-OLR AVP unless such host-type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes create a realm-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
 receiving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm of A and a
    realm-type OC-OLR AVP unless such realm type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes delete an OCS when it expires (i.e. when current time
    minus reception time is greater than validity duration).

    Reacting nodes update the host-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of
    A and a host-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reacting nodes update the realm-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm
 of
    A and a realm-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reporting nodes create an OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when receiving a
    request (indicating support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO) of application x
    containing an Orig-Host of A unless such OCS already exists.

    Reporting nodes delete an OCS when it expires.

    Reporting nodes update the OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when they detect the
    need to modify the requested amount of application x traffic reduction
    generated by A.

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com   |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/56>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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It shouldn't be much work to add realm overload to the draft.  We would
need to do the following (at a minimum):

- Change that name of the current realm report to something like
"realm-routed".
- Create a new report type of name realm that applies to all traffic
routed to the realm.
- Add a few words in the reporting node section about generation of
realm reports.
- Define the interaction between realm, realm-routed and host report
types.  This is probably the most difficult part that is likely to
require some discussion.

Other then the section on interactions between report types, I don't
think this impacts the existing text so it should fold in pretty cleanly.

I'd be happy to take the first shot at this to be included in the -02
version of the draft if there is consensus to add it.

Steve

On 2/18/14 4:11 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
>  
>
> Overload of the realm is one of the use cases that is required by 3GPP
> applications.
>
> And I think this should be part of the basic mechanism, or?
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *TROTTIN,
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> *Sent:* lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  
>
> Hi
>
>  
>
> I share the view to analyze the overload of the realm as a whole in a
> separate extension  and see if this lead to another report type.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
>  
>
> JJacques
>
>   
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Steve Donovan
> *Envoyé :* lundi 17 février 2014 17:13
> *À :* Ben Campbell
> *Cc :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  
>
> I do think it would be a new report type, as it would require
> different behavior from reacting nodes.
>
> I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks
> this is the correct approach.  We are creating a good number of
> relatively small extensions.  It might lead to the need to pull them
> all together in a future version of the DOIC draft/RFC.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>
>     (Apologies for coming late to this thread)
>
>      
>
>     On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>      
>
>         Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)
>
>         What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.  I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.
>
>          
>
>      
>
>     At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. 
>
>      
>
>         I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.
>
>          
>
>      
>
>     I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?
>
>      
>
>         Steve
>
>      
>
>      
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">It shouldn't be much work
      to add realm overload to the draft.&nbsp; We would need to do the following
      (at a minimum):<br>
      <br>
      - Change that name of the current realm report to something like
      "realm-routed".<br>
      - Create a new report type of name realm that applies to all
      traffic routed to the realm.<br>
      - Add a few words in the reporting node section about generation
      of realm reports.<br>
      - Define the interaction between realm, realm-routed and host
      report types.&nbsp; This is probably the most difficult part that is
      likely to require some discussion.<br>
      <br>
      Other then the section on interactions between report types, I
      don't think this impacts the existing text so it should fold in
      pretty cleanly.<br>
      <br>
      I'd be happy to take the first shot at this to be included in the
      -02 version of the draft if there is consensus to add it.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/18/14 4:11 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209783450@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello
            all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Overload
            of the realm is one of the use cases that is required by
            3GPP applications.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And
            I think this should be part of the basic mechanism, or?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES
                (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            share the view to analyze the overload of the realm as a
            whole in a separate extension &nbsp;and see if this lead to
            another report type.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="FR"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 17 f&eacute;vrier 2014 17:13<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> Ben Campbell<br>
                <b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I do think it
          would be a new report type, as it would require different
          behavior from reacting nodes.<br>
          <br>
          I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group
          thinks this is the correct approach.&nbsp; We are creating a good
          number of relatively small extensions.&nbsp; It might lead to the
          need to pull them all together in a future version of the DOIC
          draft/RFC.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>(Apologies for coming late to this thread)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.&nbsp; I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the realm as a whole.&nbsp; I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 13:41:43 +0000
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References: <066.b54c2f5aeb31c9b3f88c96008120290d@trac.tools.ietf.org> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209772EF4@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <19874_1392116210_52FA01F2_19874_3990_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E499C4E@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209773085@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52FA3CC6.905020 5@usdonovans.com> <17910_1392132298_52FA40CA_17910_2863_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A28D@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <11546_1392132645_52FA4225_11546_3173_1_0aa80fb0-8382-459e-aebf-2ee5d5f70edc@PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026644D6@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <D2D4DD91-8F3D-4C24-9E3A-E2AE3918D468@gmail.com> <52FCBBF7.7000700@usdonovans.com> <D4BE67F7-6D7B-4DB2-8DF0-D430A8FC6582@nostrum.com> <5302351F.6050902@usdonovans.com> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026697DE@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209783450@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <53035690.1070702@usdonovans.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/5U8MK-sq_ByTR36YOLfBEqYfZ5k
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Steve,

first of all I would like to better understand the usecase especially on th=
e reporting side.
Which node would act as a reporting node generating new realm-type reports?
How would this node detect that the complete realm is in overload (and what=
 does that mean? All servers in the realm, also clients? Agents? )?
Would this node be (logically) a single node? If not, how to synchronize di=
fferent new-realm-type reporting nodes so that they don't report different =
things to the same reacting node?

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

It shouldn't be much work to add realm overload to the draft.  We would nee=
d to do the following (at a minimum):

- Change that name of the current realm report to something like "realm-rou=
ted".
- Create a new report type of name realm that applies to all traffic routed=
 to the realm.
- Add a few words in the reporting node section about generation of realm r=
eports.
- Define the interaction between realm, realm-routed and host report types.=
  This is probably the most difficult part that is likely to require some d=
iscussion.

Other then the section on interactions between report types, I don't think =
this impacts the existing text so it should fold in pretty cleanly.

I'd be happy to take the first shot at this to be included in the -02 versi=
on of the draft if there is consensus to add it.

Steve
On 2/18/14 4:11 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello all,

Overload of the realm is one of the use cases that is required by 3GPP appl=
ications.
And I think this should be part of the basic mechanism, or?

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi

I share the view to analyze the overload of the realm as a whole in a separ=
ate extension  and see if this lead to another report type.

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:13
=C0 : Ben Campbell
Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I do think it would be a new report type, as it would require different beh=
avior from reacting nodes.

I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks this is =
the correct approach.  We are creating a good number of relatively small ex=
tensions.  It might lead to the need to pull them all together in a future =
version of the DOIC draft/RFC.

Steve
On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

(Apologies for coming late to this thread)



On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com><mailt=
o:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:



Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)

What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.  I=
 think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.





At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly me=
ntion that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state=
 problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests.



I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the =
realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.





I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, =
would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?



Steve









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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">first of a=
ll I would like to better understand the usecase especially on the reportin=
g side.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Which node=
 would act as a reporting node generating new realm-type reports?<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">How would =
this node detect that the complete realm is in overload (and what does that=
 mean? All servers in the realm, also clients? Agents? )?<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Would this=
 node be (logically) a single node? If not, how to synchronize different ne=
w-realm-type reporting nodes so that they don&#8217;t report different
 things to the same reacting node?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">It shouldn't be much =
work to add realm overload to the draft.&nbsp; We would need to do the foll=
owing (at a minimum):<br>
<br>
- Change that name of the current realm report to something like &quot;real=
m-routed&quot;.<br>
- Create a new report type of name realm that applies to all traffic routed=
 to the realm.<br>
- Add a few words in the reporting node section about generation of realm r=
eports.<br>
- Define the interaction between realm, realm-routed and host report types.=
&nbsp; This is probably the most difficult part that is likely to require s=
ome discussion.<br>
<br>
Other then the section on interactions between report types, I don't think =
this impacts the existing text so it should fold in pretty cleanly.<br>
<br>
I'd be happy to take the first shot at this to be included in the -02 versi=
on of the draft if there is consensus to add it.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/18/14 4:11 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Overload of the realm is =
one of the use cases that is required by 3GPP applications.</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And I think this should b=
e part of the basic mechanism, or?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I share the view to analy=
ze the overload of the realm as a whole in a separate extension &nbsp;and s=
ee if this lead to another report type.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:13<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br=
>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I do think it would b=
e a new report type, as it would require different behavior from reacting n=
odes.<br>
<br>
I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks this is =
the correct approach.&nbsp; We are creating a good number of relatively sma=
ll extensions.&nbsp; It might lead to the need to pull them all together in=
 a future version of the DOIC draft/RFC.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>(Apologies for coming late to this thread)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan=
@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed request=
s.&nbsp; I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belated=
ly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-=
state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. <o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of=
 the realm as a whole.&nbsp; I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture thi=
s issue.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If=
 so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Ulrich,

All good questions.

I mapped out the use case in a previous email with discussing the
realm-routed overload report type. 

Maria Cruz also indicated that this is a 3GPP DOC requirement.  I'm
hoping someone involved in the discussions that lead to that requirement
can speak up on the use case driving the need for realm reports.

The means of detection is out of scope for the DOIC draft, just as it is
for host and realm-routed report types.  We should, however, include
wording to explain how it might be done. 

A few bullet points outlining a proposed solution.  I can put together a
couple of slides explaining this if it would be helpful.

- The method of detection can be based on the collected status of
Diameter nodes in the realm.  It can also be based on the status of the
underlying network.  For instance, if there is a network outage that
reduces the effective throughput of the signaling network, the best
method for handling this might be to signal a realm overload report.

- The network element detecting the realm status is out of scope for the
DOIC document.

- The Diameter node that reports realm overload can be any Diameter node
and is up to the service provider to define.  Assuming we are using
Diameter answer messages to transport the realm reports, it would need
to be either all agents or all servers.  This is to guarantee that all
reacting nodes get the report.

- The method that the reporting node is told that the realm is
overloaded, triggering the realm overload report, is out of scope for
this document.

- Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting
node.  It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection
element to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.

One way to model this is for an external element being responsible for
detecting realm overload and signaling the realm overload reporting
nodes of the status using an out of bands mechanism.  All realm overload
reporting nodes would be responsible for sending realm overload
reports.  Reacting nodes would only listen to one of the reporting nodes.

There are also security considerations similar to host reports, except
that an attack using realm overload reports has a much bigger impact
than an attack using host reports.

Steve

On 2/18/14 7:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> first of all I would like to better understand the usecase especially
> on the reporting side.
>
> Which node would act as a reporting node generating new realm-type
> reports?
>
> How would this node detect that the complete realm is in overload (and
> what does that mean? All servers in the realm, also clients? Agents? )?
>
> Would this node be (logically) a single node? If not, how to
> synchronize different new-realm-type reporting nodes so that they
> don't report different things to the same reacting node?
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Steve
> Donovan
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:48 PM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  
>
> It shouldn't be much work to add realm overload to the draft.  We
> would need to do the following (at a minimum):
>
> - Change that name of the current realm report to something like
> "realm-routed".
> - Create a new report type of name realm that applies to all traffic
> routed to the realm.
> - Add a few words in the reporting node section about generation of
> realm reports.
> - Define the interaction between realm, realm-routed and host report
> types.  This is probably the most difficult part that is likely to
> require some discussion.
>
> Other then the section on interactions between report types, I don't
> think this impacts the existing text so it should fold in pretty cleanly.
>
> I'd be happy to take the first shot at this to be included in the -02
> version of the draft if there is consensus to add it.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/18/14 4:11 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>     Hello all,
>
>      
>
>     Overload of the realm is one of the use cases that is required by
>     3GPP applications.
>
>     And I think this should be part of the basic mechanism, or?
>
>      
>
>     Best regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *TROTTIN,
>     JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
>     *Sent:* lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53
>     *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>      
>
>     Hi
>
>      
>
>     I share the view to analyze the overload of the realm as a whole
>     in a separate extension  and see if this lead to another report type.
>
>      
>
>     Best regards
>
>      
>
>     JJacques
>
>       
>
>      
>
>     *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Steve
>     Donovan
>     *Envoyé :* lundi 17 février 2014 17:13
>     *À :* Ben Campbell
>     *Cc :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
>     *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>      
>
>     I do think it would be a new report type, as it would require
>     different behavior from reacting nodes.
>
>     I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks
>     this is the correct approach.  We are creating a good number of
>     relatively small extensions.  It might lead to the need to pull
>     them all together in a future version of the DOIC draft/RFC.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>
>         (Apologies for coming late to this thread)
>
>          
>
>         On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>          
>
>             Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)
>
>             What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.  I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.
>
>              
>
>          
>
>         At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. 
>
>          
>
>             I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.
>
>              
>
>          
>
>         I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?
>
>          
>
>             Steve
>
>          
>
>          
>
>      
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>  
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      All good questions.<br>
      <br>
      I mapped out the use case in a previous email with discussing the
      realm-routed overload report type.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      Maria Cruz also indicated that this is a 3GPP DOC requirement.&nbsp;
      I'm hoping someone involved in the discussions that lead to that
      requirement can speak up on the use case driving the need for
      realm reports.<br>
      <br>
      The means of detection is out of scope for the DOIC draft, just as
      it is for host and realm-routed report types.&nbsp; We should, however,
      include wording to explain how it might be done.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      A few bullet points outlining a proposed solution.&nbsp; I can put
      together a couple of slides explaining this if it would be
      helpful.<br>
      <br>
      - The method of detection can be based on the collected status of
      Diameter nodes in the realm.&nbsp; It can also be based on the status
      of the underlying network.&nbsp; For instance, if there is a network
      outage that reduces the effective throughput of the signaling
      network, the best method for handling this might be to signal a
      realm overload report.<br>
      <br>
      - The network element detecting the realm status is out of scope
      for the DOIC document.<br>
      <br>
      - The Diameter node that reports realm overload can be any
      Diameter node and is up to the service provider to define.&nbsp;
      Assuming we are using Diameter answer messages to transport the
      realm reports, it would need to be either all agents or all
      servers.&nbsp; This is to guarantee that all reacting nodes get the
      report.<br>
      <br>
      - The method that the reporting node is told that the realm is
      overloaded, triggering the realm overload report, is out of scope
      for this document.<br>
      <br>
      - Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload
      reporting node.&nbsp; It is up to the implementation of the realm
      overload detection element to make sure that all reporting nodes
      have the same state.<br>
      <br>
      One way to model this is for an external element being responsible
      for detecting realm overload and signaling the realm overload
      reporting nodes of the status using an out of bands mechanism.&nbsp;
      All realm overload reporting nodes would be responsible for
      sending realm overload reports.&nbsp; Reacting nodes would only listen
      to one of the reporting nodes.<br>
      <br>
      There are also security considerations similar to host reports,
      except that an attack using realm overload reports has a much
      bigger impact than an attack using host reports.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/18/14 7:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">first of all I would like to better understand
            the usecase especially on the reporting side.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Which node would act as a reporting node
            generating new realm-type reports?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">How would this node detect that the complete
            realm is in overload (and what does that mean? All servers
            in the realm, also clients? Agents? )?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Would this node be (logically) a single node?
            If not, how to synchronize different new-realm-type
            reporting nodes so that they don&#8217;t report different things
            to the same reacting node?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
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            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
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                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:48 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">It shouldn't
          be much work to add realm overload to the draft.&nbsp; We would
          need to do the following (at a minimum):<br>
          <br>
          - Change that name of the current realm report to something
          like "realm-routed".<br>
          - Create a new report type of name realm that applies to all
          traffic routed to the realm.<br>
          - Add a few words in the reporting node section about
          generation of realm reports.<br>
          - Define the interaction between realm, realm-routed and host
          report types.&nbsp; This is probably the most difficult part that
          is likely to require some discussion.<br>
          <br>
          Other then the section on interactions between report types, I
          don't think this impacts the existing text so it should fold
          in pretty cleanly.<br>
          <br>
          I'd be happy to take the first shot at this to be included in
          the -02 version of the draft if there is consensus to add it.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/18/14 4:11 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome
            wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello
              all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Overload
              of the realm is one of the use cases that is required by
              3GPP applications.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And
              I think this should be part of the basic mechanism, or?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
              regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES
                  (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                  OC-Report-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
              share the view to analyze the overload of the realm as a
              whole in a separate extension &nbsp;and see if this lead to
              another report type.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
              regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="FR"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
                  <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 17 f&eacute;vrier 2014 17:13<br>
                  <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> Ben Campbell<br>
                  <b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                  <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                  OC-Report-Type AVP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I do think
            it would be a new report type, as it would require different
            behavior from reacting nodes.<br>
            <br>
            I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group
            thinks this is the correct approach.&nbsp; We are creating a good
            number of relatively small extensions.&nbsp; It might lead to the
            need to pull them all together in a future version of the
            DOIC draft/RFC.<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>(Apologies for coming late to this thread)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.&nbsp; I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the realm as a whole.&nbsp; I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------070304020609070605090806--


From nobody Tue Feb 18 07:20:12 2014
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To: Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>
References: <20140214084329.10393.78739.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52FDDD10.1050306@restena.lu> <52FFF22A.5010802@deployingradius.com> <5301D017.8060302@restena.lu> <5302105C.6070103@deployingradius.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [abfab] [radext] New Version Notification for draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
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>>>>> "Alan" == Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com> writes:


    Alan>   The idea was to allow *provisioning* of the
    Alan> Response/Identity.  Automatically deriving it from the
    Alan> method-specific "user identity" is just as bad as
    Alan> automatically using a 3GPP identity.

Unfortunately in contexts like ABFAB, you're only going to have one
username.
I appreciate that there are environments where you need a different
outer username, but I think we want to be moving towards anonymous outer
usernames derived from the realm, and I do not support a spec that would
make that more difficult.


From nobody Tue Feb 18 10:04:57 2014
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Hi all


1)      I come back on this Steve's comment : "Define the interaction betwe=
en realm, realm-routed and host report types.  This is probably the most di=
fficult part that is likely to require some discussion".
This joins one of  my remarks about the overlapping between different repor=
ts in a previous mail and drives to the use cases regarding realm overload:


-          If realm overload is due to server overload, I would think that =
 our current  mechanism dealing with host report and realm (alias realm-rou=
ted) report will address / solve server overload  and in consequence indire=
ctly  address / solve  this overload realm  case

-          if realm overload is due to the overload of Diameter agents, we =
have discussion and a Steve's  proposal   about  Agent overload. I would al=
so think that by addressing / solving the DA overload, it would also addres=
s and solve this overload realm  case.

-          About an underlying  network congestion (eg due to network outag=
e), here REQ 13 mentions that "The solution MUST NOT interfere with the con=
gestion control mechanisms of underlying transport protocols". So here I am=
 also questioning if  we may have  duplication or overlapping, and what to =
do .

-          Have we other realm overload use cases?

So my current thinking is  we have first  to identify the various realm  ov=
erload use cases and see those actually justifying to add new mechanisms.


2)      I share Ulrich's questions  on how to deal with realm overload. Ste=
ve's  answer introduces a high complexity about detecting , evaluate the re=
alm overload  and then which DA are acting etc. The fact to consider many o=
f these points out of the scope does not suppress this complexity (which in=
 addition occurs in an overloaded environment...) . So  I come back to my p=
oint 1 about the use cases to address  and the use of the mechanisms for se=
rver and DA overload

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : mardi 18 f=E9vrier 2014 15:55
=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Ulrich,

All good questions.

I mapped out the use case in a previous email with discussing the realm-rou=
ted overload report type.

Maria Cruz also indicated that this is a 3GPP DOC requirement.  I'm hoping =
someone involved in the discussions that lead to that requirement can speak=
 up on the use case driving the need for realm reports.

The means of detection is out of scope for the DOIC draft, just as it is fo=
r host and realm-routed report types.  We should, however, include wording =
to explain how it might be done.

A few bullet points outlining a proposed solution.  I can put together a co=
uple of slides explaining this if it would be helpful.

- The method of detection can be based on the collected status of Diameter =
nodes in the realm.  It can also be based on the status of the underlying n=
etwork.  For instance, if there is a network outage that reduces the effect=
ive throughput of the signaling network, the best method for handling this =
might be to signal a realm overload report.

- The network element detecting the realm status is out of scope for the DO=
IC document.

- The Diameter node that reports realm overload can be any Diameter node an=
d is up to the service provider to define.  Assuming we are using Diameter =
answer messages to transport the realm reports, it would need to be either =
all agents or all servers.  This is to guarantee that all reacting nodes ge=
t the report.

- The method that the reporting node is told that the realm is overloaded, =
triggering the realm overload report, is out of scope for this document.

- Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting node.  =
It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection element to m=
ake sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.

One way to model this is for an external element being responsible for dete=
cting realm overload and signaling the realm overload reporting nodes of th=
e status using an out of bands mechanism.  All realm overload reporting nod=
es would be responsible for sending realm overload reports.  Reacting nodes=
 would only listen to one of the reporting nodes.

There are also security considerations similar to host reports, except that=
 an attack using realm overload reports has a much bigger impact than an at=
tack using host reports.

Steve
On 2/18/14 7:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Steve,

first of all I would like to better understand the usecase especially on th=
e reporting side.
Which node would act as a reporting node generating new realm-type reports?
How would this node detect that the complete realm is in overload (and what=
 does that mean? All servers in the realm, also clients? Agents? )?
Would this node be (logically) a single node? If not, how to synchronize di=
fferent new-realm-type reporting nodes so that they don't report different =
things to the same reacting node?

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:48 PM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

It shouldn't be much work to add realm overload to the draft.  We would nee=
d to do the following (at a minimum):

- Change that name of the current realm report to something like "realm-rou=
ted".
- Create a new report type of name realm that applies to all traffic routed=
 to the realm.
- Add a few words in the reporting node section about generation of realm r=
eports.
- Define the interaction between realm, realm-routed and host report types.=
  This is probably the most difficult part that is likely to require some d=
iscussion.

Other then the section on interactions between report types, I don't think =
this impacts the existing text so it should fold in pretty cleanly.

I'd be happy to take the first shot at this to be included in the -02 versi=
on of the draft if there is consensus to add it.

Steve
On 2/18/14 4:11 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello all,

Overload of the realm is one of the use cases that is required by 3GPP appl=
ications.
And I think this should be part of the basic mechanism, or?

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Hi

I share the view to analyze the overload of the realm as a whole in a separ=
ate extension  and see if this lead to another report type.

Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:13
=C0 : Ben Campbell
Cc : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

I do think it would be a new report type, as it would require different beh=
avior from reacting nodes.

I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks this is =
the correct approach.  We are creating a good number of relatively small ex=
tensions.  It might lead to the need to pull them all together in a future =
version of the DOIC draft/RFC.

Steve
On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

(Apologies for coming late to this thread)



On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com><mailt=
o:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:



Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)

What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed requests.  I=
 think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.





At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belatedly me=
ntion that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-state=
 problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests.



I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of the =
realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this issue.





I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If so, =
would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?



Steve










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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi all<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ign=
ore">1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I come back on th=
is Steve&#8217;s comment : &#8220;</span>Define the interaction between rea=
lm, realm-routed and host report types.&nbsp; This is probably the most
 difficult part that is likely to require some discussion&#8221;. <o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This joins one of &nbsp;m=
y remarks about the overlapping between different reports in a previous mai=
l and drives to the use cases regarding realm overload:<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If realm overload=
 is due to server overload, I would think that &nbsp;our current &nbsp;mech=
anism dealing with host report and realm (alias realm-routed) report
 will address / solve server overload &nbsp;and in consequence indirectly &=
nbsp;address / solve &nbsp;this overload realm &nbsp;case<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">if realm overload=
 is due to the overload of Diameter agents, we have discussion and a Steve&=
#8217;s &nbsp;proposal &nbsp;&nbsp;about &nbsp;Agent overload. I would also=
 think
 that by addressing / solving the DA overload, it would also address and so=
lve this overload realm &nbsp;case.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">About an underlyi=
ng &nbsp;network congestion (eg due to network outage), here REQ 13 mention=
s that &#8220;The solution MUST NOT interfere with the congestion
 control mechanisms of underlying transport protocols&#8221;. So here I am =
also questioning if &nbsp;we may have &nbsp;duplication or overlapping, and=
 what to do .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Have we other rea=
lm overload use cases?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So my current thinking is=
 &nbsp;we have first &nbsp;to identify the various realm &nbsp;overload use=
 cases and see those actually justifying to add new mechanisms.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ign=
ore">2)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I share Ulrich&#8=
217;s questions &nbsp;on how to deal with realm overload. Steve&#8217;s &nb=
sp;answer introduces a high complexity about detecting , evaluate the realm
 overload &nbsp;and then which DA are acting etc. The fact to consider many=
 of these points out of the scope does not suppress this complexity (which =
in addition occurs in an overloaded environment&#8230;) . So &nbsp;I come b=
ack to my point 1 about the use cases to address
 &nbsp;and the use of the mechanisms for server and DA overload &nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bou=
nces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 18 f=E9vrier 2014 15:55<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
<br>
All good questions.<br>
<br>
I mapped out the use case in a previous email with discussing the realm-rou=
ted overload report type.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
Maria Cruz also indicated that this is a 3GPP DOC requirement.&nbsp; I'm ho=
ping someone involved in the discussions that lead to that requirement can =
speak up on the use case driving the need for realm reports.<br>
<br>
The means of detection is out of scope for the DOIC draft, just as it is fo=
r host and realm-routed report types.&nbsp; We should, however, include wor=
ding to explain how it might be done.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
A few bullet points outlining a proposed solution.&nbsp; I can put together=
 a couple of slides explaining this if it would be helpful.<br>
<br>
- The method of detection can be based on the collected status of Diameter =
nodes in the realm.&nbsp; It can also be based on the status of the underly=
ing network.&nbsp; For instance, if there is a network outage that reduces =
the effective throughput of the signaling
 network, the best method for handling this might be to signal a realm over=
load report.<br>
<br>
- The network element detecting the realm status is out of scope for the DO=
IC document.<br>
<br>
- The Diameter node that reports realm overload can be any Diameter node an=
d is up to the service provider to define.&nbsp; Assuming we are using Diam=
eter answer messages to transport the realm reports, it would need to be ei=
ther all agents or all servers.&nbsp; This
 is to guarantee that all reacting nodes get the report.<br>
<br>
- The method that the reporting node is told that the realm is overloaded, =
triggering the realm overload report, is out of scope for this document.<br=
>
<br>
- Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting node.&n=
bsp; It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection element=
 to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.<br>
<br>
One way to model this is for an external element being responsible for dete=
cting realm overload and signaling the realm overload reporting nodes of th=
e status using an out of bands mechanism.&nbsp; All realm overload reportin=
g nodes would be responsible for sending
 realm overload reports.&nbsp; Reacting nodes would only listen to one of t=
he reporting nodes.<br>
<br>
There are also security considerations similar to host reports, except that=
 an attack using realm overload reports has a much bigger impact than an at=
tack using host reports.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/18/14 7:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">first of all I would like=
 to better understand the usecase especially on the reporting side.</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Which node would act as a=
 reporting node generating new realm-type reports?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">How would this node detec=
t that the complete realm is in overload (and what does that mean? All serv=
ers in the realm, also clients? Agents? )?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Would this node be (logic=
ally) a single node? If not, how to synchronize different new-realm-type re=
porting nodes so that they don&#8217;t report different things
 to the same reacting node?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">It shouldn't be much =
work to add realm overload to the draft.&nbsp; We would need to do the foll=
owing (at a minimum):<br>
<br>
- Change that name of the current realm report to something like &quot;real=
m-routed&quot;.<br>
- Create a new report type of name realm that applies to all traffic routed=
 to the realm.<br>
- Add a few words in the reporting node section about generation of realm r=
eports.<br>
- Define the interaction between realm, realm-routed and host report types.=
&nbsp; This is probably the most difficult part that is likely to require s=
ome discussion.<br>
<br>
Other then the section on interactions between report types, I don't think =
this impacts the existing text so it should fold in pretty cleanly.<br>
<br>
I'd be happy to take the first shot at this to be included in the -02 versi=
on of the draft if there is consensus to add it.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/18/14 4:11 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello all,</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Overload of the realm is =
one of the use cases that is required by 3GPP applications.</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And I think this should b=
e part of the basic mechanism, or?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I share the view to analy=
ze the overload of the realm as a whole in a separate extension &nbsp;and s=
ee if this lead to another report type.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:13<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br=
>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I do think it would b=
e a new report type, as it would require different behavior from reacting n=
odes.<br>
<br>
I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks this is =
the correct approach.&nbsp; We are creating a good number of relatively sma=
ll extensions.&nbsp; It might lead to the need to pull them all together in=
 a future version of the DOIC draft/RFC.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>(Apologies for coming late to this thread)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan=
@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed request=
s.&nbsp; I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as such.<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to belated=
ly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about the mixed-=
state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed requests. <o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of=
 the realm as a whole.&nbsp; I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture thi=
s issue.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If=
 so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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To: "DiME@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Closing some issues on overload control
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#29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features

Dear all,

I have received comments from Lionel, Jouni and Steve;
I understand that Lionel and myself support removal of OC-Sequence-Number A=
VP from OC-Supported-Features AVP while Jouni has no strong view.  I'm not =
sure whether Steve is convinced by the response given to his comments.

In summary I dare to propose that we conclude in favour of removing OC-Sequ=
ence-Number from OC-Supported-Features.

Ulrich


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<div>#29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features</div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">&nbs=
p;</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">Dear=
 all,</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">&nbs=
p;</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">I ha=
ve received comments from Lionel, Jouni and Steve; </span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">I un=
derstand that Lionel and myself support removal of OC-Sequence-Number AVP f=
rom OC-Supported-Features AVP while Jouni has no strong view.&nbsp; I&#8217=
;m not sure whether Steve is convinced by the response
given to his comments.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">&nbs=
p;</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">In s=
ummary I dare to propose that we conclude in favour of removing OC-Sequence=
-Number from OC-Supported-Features.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">&nbs=
p;</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">Ulri=
ch</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">&nbs=
p;</span></font></div>
</span></font>
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From nobody Wed Feb 19 01:28:44 2014
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Folks,

Slightly late as always..
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime

We have reserved as much time as possible for the overload
topic.

Agenda comments/change requests asap, please.


- Jouni & Lionel

**


DIME WG IETF 89 Agenda =20

Chairs:
Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen at broadcom.com>
Lionel Morand@ <lionel.morand at orange.com>

Jabber room: dime at jabber.ietf.org (Please join)
THURSDAY, March 6, 2014
0900-1130  Morning Session I (150 mins)
Richmond/Chelsea/Tower

09:00 - 09:10, Preliminaries (10 minutes)
------------------------------------------
Audio/Video & Remote Presentation Debugging
Note Well
Note Takers
Jabber scribe
Agenda bash
Document Status

 o draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-21   -> IESG
 o draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req-01        -> About ready -> WGLC
 o draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03    -> in WG
 o draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01               -> in WG
 o draft-ietf-dime-pmip6-lr-18           -> AUTH48
 o draft-ietf-dime-rfc4005bis-14         -> AUTH48

Working group draft discussion (20 minutes)
-------------------------------------------

09:10 - 09:30 Diameter Group Signaling, Marco (20 minutes)
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/

Chartered individual draft discussion (15 minutes)
--------------------------------------------------

09:30 - 09:45 Diameter Congestion and Filter Attributes, Brent (15 =
minutes)
=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-congestion-flow-attribut=
es/

Diamater Overload discussion (80 minutes)
-----------------------------------------

09:45 - 11:05 Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance, Jouni/Steve (80 =
minutes)
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/


+ 15 mins buffer / break..

Wrap-up (10 minutes)
--------------------
11:20 - 11:30 Next Steps: WG Chairs & ADs (10 minutes)=20
WG Goals/Milestones status, next steps=20=


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages

Dear all,

It may be too early to finaly conclude on this one.

It seems we have consensus in the following: Absence of Supported-Features-=
AVP from an answer message MUST not result in reacting nodes to cease sendi=
ng of any DOIC related AVPs in subsequent requests.

It is still open whether we can remove OC-Supported-Features from answer me=
ssages. However we seem to agree that the meaning of OC-OLR AVP is not depe=
ndent from any OC-Supported-Features AVP within the same answer.

The open question seems to be whether it is required for reacting nodes to =
do different throttlings based on implicit signals towards a) non-supportin=
g destinations  and b) supporting but not traffic-reduction-requesting dest=
inations. If required it seems also be clear that an additional indication =
is needed to indicate whether the OC-Supported-Feature AVP was inserted by =
the server (host) or by an agent (realm).

Ulrich


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<div>#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dear all,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>It may be too early to finaly conclude on this one.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>It seems we have consensus in the following: Absence of Supported-Feat=
ures-AVP from an answer message MUST not result in reacting nodes to cease =
sending of any DOIC related AVPs in subsequent requests.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>It is still open whether we can remove OC-Supported-Features from answ=
er messages. However we seem to agree that the meaning of OC-OLR AVP is not=
 dependent from any OC-Supported-Features AVP within the same answer.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The open question seems to be whether it is required for reacting node=
s to do different throttlings based on implicit signals towards a) non-supp=
orting destinations&nbsp; and b) supporting but not traffic-reduction-reque=
sting destinations. If required it seems
also be clear that an additional indication is needed to indicate whether t=
he OC-Supported-Feature AVP was inserted by the server (host) or by an agen=
t (realm).</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Ulrich</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:57 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> It may be too early to finaly conclude on this one.
> =20
> It seems we have consensus in the following: Absence of =
Supported-Features-AVP from an answer message MUST not result in =
reacting nodes to cease sending of any DOIC related AVPs in subsequent =
requests.

This is OK.

> =20
> It is still open whether we can remove OC-Supported-Features from =
answer messages. However we seem to agree that the meaning of OC-OLR AVP =
is not dependent from any OC-Supported-Features AVP within the same =
answer.

I do not agree that the OC-OLR meaning is not dependant on the =
OC-Supported-Features in the answer.

> The open question seems to be whether it is required for reacting =
nodes to do different throttlings based on implicit signals towards a) =
non-supporting destinations  and b) supporting but not =
traffic-reduction-requesting destinations. If required it seems also be =
clear that an additional indication is needed to indicate whether the =
OC-Supported-Feature AVP was inserted by the server (host) or by an =
agent (realm).

Right.


- Jouni

> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 11:24:55 +0000
To: dime@ietf.org
From: Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Dime] I have a doubt in Failover and Fallback mechanisms present under DIAMETER.
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Hi, 

Failover and Fallback procedures we know very well.

Suppose initial message was supposed to send to primary peer, but peer went down and message has been forwarded to Secondary peer i.e. Failover. Now suppose if Primary Peer has come up and according to DIAMETER theory the message should go to primary peer. So the next message will be Update message. Which will have the same session id which was used with the initial message. 

Now my doubt is how the primary peer will recognize the session-id of update message. Because it has no info for that session. The session was created with the secondary peer. 

Thanks,
Kevin Peterson



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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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Hi Jouni,

thank you for your reply, and sorry for not having correctly summarized the=
 status with regard to dependencies between OC-OLR AVP and OC-Supported-Fea=
tures AVP in an answer message.

I would like to further discuss this aspect.
My understanding is: as long as only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO (0x0000000000000001) =
is supported, there is no such dependency.
Furthermore: even with the introduction of Rate-control in draft-donovan-di=
me-doc-rate-control-00, no such dependency is introduced.=20
An OLR is a loss-type OLR when it contains a Reduction-Percentage and it's =
a rate-type OLR when it contains an OC-Maximum-Rate AVP (see draft-donovan-=
dime-doc-rate-control-00 clause 4.1).

A future extension may introduce such dependency (although I don't think it=
's a good idea) e.g. by saying that an OLR is a new-feature-type OLR when t=
he OC-Supported-Features AVP in the same answer message indicates support o=
f new-feature, and a loss-type OLR otherwise; however this is subject to be=
 specified in the extension spec, not in draft-ietf-dime-ovli.

Summary: currently no dependency; currently dependency is no reason to have=
 OC-Supported-Feature in anwers; new feature may introduce the dependency a=
nd consequently introduce OC-Supported-Feature in answer.

Ulrich





-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 11:25 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status


On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:57 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wie=
he@nsn.com> wrote:

> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> It may be too early to finaly conclude on this one.
> =20
> It seems we have consensus in the following: Absence of Supported-Feature=
s-AVP from an answer message MUST not result in reacting nodes to cease sen=
ding of any DOIC related AVPs in subsequent requests.

This is OK.

> =20
> It is still open whether we can remove OC-Supported-Features from answer =
messages. However we seem to agree that the meaning of OC-OLR AVP is not de=
pendent from any OC-Supported-Features AVP within the same answer.

I do not agree that the OC-OLR meaning is not dependant on the OC-Supported=
-Features in the answer.

> The open question seems to be whether it is required for reacting nodes t=
o do different throttlings based on implicit signals towards a) non-support=
ing destinations  and b) supporting but not traffic-reduction-requesting de=
stinations. If required it seems also be clear that an additional indicatio=
n is needed to indicate whether the OC-Supported-Feature AVP was inserted b=
y the server (host) or by an agent (realm).

Right.


- Jouni

> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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To: Stefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu>
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Cc: "radext@ietf.org" <radext@ietf.org>, abfab@ietf.org, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "<emu@ietf.org>" <emu@ietf.org>, Rafa Marin Lopez <rafa@um.es>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [abfab] New Version Notification for draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
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Hi Stefan:

I have taken a look to this draft. Regarding the conversion to UTF-8 =
nothing to say.

Regarding=20

"1.  The choice of identity to send in EAP-Response/Identity may have
       detrimental effects on the subsequent EAP type negotiation."

as far as I remember, it was discussed long time ago as a problem of =
network selection (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5113). See section 2.2. =
Identity Selection. Your approach here (if I properly understood) seems =
to allow the user to try all the identities before reporting an error =
(note that this may imply association/dissociation processes at =
link-layer to re-start the whole authentication process). The approach =
there is to provide the user with the required information to select the =
right username.=20

In the particular case of WiFi networks it would be also good to take a =
look to IEEE 802.11u and hotspot 2.0 (e.g. these slides, which you may =
already know, are interesting =
http://www.terena.org/activities/tf-mobility/meetings/26/07-11u-Dave.pptx)=


Just my 0.02 cents.

Best Regards.

P.D: Btw, I agree with Alan: it would good to have a "roaming =
inter-operations" WG.=20

P.D.2: Among other things, it would be also good if some information =
about accessible realms from a NAS could be provided in a dynamic way to =
the peer.=20


El 14/02/2014, a las 10:08, Stefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu> =
escribi=F3:

> Hello,
>=20
> I've just submitted an -00 on a topic that we've been struggling with =
in
> ABFAB recently (but which exists in every EAP-over-AAA scenario, not
> limited to ABFAB).
>=20
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-winter-radext-populating-eapiden=
tity-00.txt
>=20
> Abstract:
>   There are some subtle considerations for an EAP peer regarding the
>   content of the EAP-Response/Identity packet when authenticating with
>   EAP to an EAP server.  This document describes two such
>   considerations and suggests workarounds to the associated problems.
>=20
> The issue touches multiple areas and working groups (EAP, EAP methods,
> RADIUS, Diameter) so I had to do a guesstimate for a proper home. I
> would think radext is the best match, cc'ing abfab and dime, and also
> emu even though it's shutting down).
>=20
> If you recall those in-depth discussions about fixing either EAP =
methods
> to use UTF-8, or why EAP Identity would need to be restrained to UTF-8
> even if a method doesn't do it, then yes: the draft is about that.
>=20
> In ABFAB, we added a ABFAB-specific band-aid sentence to RFC7057:
> "Circumstances might require that applications need to perform
> conversion of identities from an application specific character set to
> UTF-8 or another character set required by a particular EAP method."
>=20
> Which was enough to get the document through IESG, but this should
> better be fixed more generally for every EAP use case; hence this new =
draft.
>=20
> It's short and concise - I'd appreciate if you could give it a read =
and
> comment.
>=20
> If there's still free time on the agenda, I would also merrily discuss
> it in London.
>=20
> Greetings,
>=20
> Stefan Winter
>=20
> P.S.: Don't miss my other submission about an EAP Configuration File
> Format, which I've been told to submit to ops-area/opsawg:
>=20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-winter-opsawg-eap-metadata/
>=20
> Annoucement here:
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ops-area/current/msg01114.html
>=20
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 00:43:29 -0800
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: Stefan Winter <stefan.winter@restena.lu>, "Stefan Winter"
> <stefan.winter@restena.lu>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, =
draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Stefan Winter and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity
> Revision:	00
> Title:		Considerations regarding the correct use of =
EAP-Response/Identity
> Document date:	2014-02-14
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		6
> URL:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-winter-radext-populating-eapiden=
tity-00.txt
> Status:
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentit=
y/
> Htmlized:
> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-winter-radext-populating-eapidentity-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   There are some subtle considerations for an EAP peer regarding the
>   content of the EAP-Response/Identity packet when authenticating with
>   EAP to an EAP server.  This document describes two such
>   considerations and suggests workarounds to the associated problems.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
>=20
>=20
> <0x8A39DC66.asc>_______________________________________________
> abfab mailing list
> abfab@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/abfab

-------------------------------------------------------
Rafael Marin Lopez, PhD
Dept. Information and Communications Engineering (DIIC)
Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia
30100 Murcia - Spain
Telf: +34868888501 Fax: +34868884151 e-mail: rafa@um.es
-------------------------------------------------------





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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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#31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that surviv=
ed a throttling

Dear all,

I did not receive much support for the proposal to define an OC-Ongoing-Thr=
ottling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttlting.

However, we seem to agree on some principles:

Missing OLR in answer means "no change"; it does not mean "no overload/no t=
hrottling requested"

Reporting nodes SHOULD include OLR in every answer that it sends in respons=
e to a request message which indicated OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support unless the =
reporting node has very good reasons not to do so. Exact wording is not yet=
 agreed.

Ulrich




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<div>#31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that s=
urvived a throttling</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dear all,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I did not receive much support for the proposal to define an OC-Ongoin=
g-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a throttlting.</div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>However, we seem to agree on some principles:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Missing OLR in answer means &#8220;no change&#8221;; it does not mean =
&#8220;no overload/no throttling requested&#8221;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Reporting nodes SHOULD include OLR in every answer that it sends in re=
sponse to a request message which indicated <font face=3D"Courier New" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO </span></font>suppo=
rt unless the reporting node has very
good reasons not to do so. Exact wording is not yet agreed. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Ulrich</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

I understand that we agreed the following principles:

Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not correspond to t=
he point in time of generation.

When generated, a new sequence number must be  greater than any sequence nu=
mber previously generated by the same node (including over a reboot of that=
 node)

When received, a sequence number is used to detect outdates/replays/freshne=
ss.

Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting nodes.


I did not understand the requirement for globally uniqueness as introduced =
by Jouni.
Can Jouni please explain.

Ulrich




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<div>#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I understand that we agreed the following principles:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not correspond=
 to the point in time of generation.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>When generated, a new sequence number must be&nbsp; greater than any s=
equence number previously generated by the same node (including over a rebo=
ot of that node)</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>When received, a sequence number is used to detect outdates/replays/fr=
eshness.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting no=
des.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I did not understand the requirement for globally uniqueness as introd=
uced by Jouni.</div>
<div>Can Jouni please explain.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Ulrich</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
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Ulrich,

See comments inline.

Steve

On 2/19/14 9:33 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>  
> I understand that we agreed the following principles:
>  
> Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not correspond
> to the point in time of generation.
SRD> I don't agree that the type should be time.  It should be of type
Unsigned64.  A time stamp can be inserted into it but we should not
prevent simple sequence numbers.  I agree with the remainder of the
statement.
>  
> When generated, a new sequence number must be  greater than any
> sequence number previously generated by the same node (including over
> a reboot of that node)
SRD> Agreed
>  
> When received, a sequence number is used to detect
> outdates/replays/freshness.
SRD> Agreed
>  
> Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting nodes.
SRD> Agreed
>  
>  
> I did not understand the requirement for globally uniqueness as
> introduced by Jouni.
> Can Jouni please explain.
>  
> Ulrich
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      See comments inline.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/19/14 9:33 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3D63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
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      <font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt;">
          <div>#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>I understand that we agreed the following principles:</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need
            not correspond to the point in time of generation.</div>
        </span></font></blockquote>
    <font size="2"><font face="Calibri"><big>SRD&gt; I don't agree that
          the type should be time.&nbsp; It should be of type Unsigned64.&nbsp; A
          time stamp can be inserted into it but we should not prevent
          simple sequence numbers.&nbsp; I agree with the remainder of the
          statement.</big></font></font><br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3D63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span
          style="font-size:11pt;">
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>When generated, a new sequence number must be&nbsp; greater
            than any sequence number previously generated by the same
            node (including over a reboot of that node)</div>
        </span></font></blockquote>
    <font size="2"><font face="Calibri"><big><big><small>SRD&gt; Agreed</small></big></big></font></font><br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3D63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span
          style="font-size:11pt;">
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>When received, a sequence number is used to detect
            outdates/replays/freshness.</div>
        </span></font></blockquote>
    <big><font size="2"><font face="Calibri"><big>SRD&gt; Agreed</big></font></font></big><br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3D63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span
          style="font-size:11pt;">
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered
            by reacting nodes.</div>
        </span></font></blockquote>
    <font size="2"><font face="Calibri"><big><big><small>SRD&gt; Agreed</small></big></big></font></font><br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3D63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span
          style="font-size:11pt;">
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>I did not understand the requirement for globally
            uniqueness as introduced by Jouni.</div>
          <div>Can Jouni please explain.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Ulrich</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
        </span></font>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
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    <br>
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Agreed

On 2/19/14 8:17 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
> survived a throttling
>  
> Dear all,
>  
> I did not receive much support for the proposal to define an
> OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a
> throttlting.
>  
> However, we seem to agree on some principles:
>  
> Missing OLR in answer means "no change"; it does not mean "no
> overload/no throttling requested"
>  
> Reporting nodes SHOULD include OLR in every answer that it sends in
> response to a request message which indicated OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support
> unless the reporting node has very good reasons not to do so. Exact
> wording is not yet agreed.
>  
> Ulrich
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Agreed<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/19/14 8:17 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3CF7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
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        charset=ISO-8859-1">
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      <font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt;">
          <div>#31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request
            messages that survived a throttling</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Dear all,</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>I did not receive much support for the proposal to define
            an OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that
            survived a throttlting.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>However, we seem to agree on some principles:</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Missing OLR in answer means &#8220;no change&#8221;; it does not mean
            &#8220;no overload/no throttling requested&#8221;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Reporting nodes SHOULD include OLR in every answer that
            it sends in response to a request message which indicated <font
              face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt;">OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO
              </span></font>support unless the reporting node has very
            good reasons not to do so. Exact wording is not yet agreed.
          </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Ulrich</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
        </span></font>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
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There has been no discussion of this ticket.

I propose that the definition of Diameter layer load balancing be removed.

I propose removing the definition of Topology Hiding, as it has meanings
outside of the context of Diameter overload.

I also propose that we remove any discussion of agents acting as server
front ends or topology hiders.  I propose instead to have a discussion
in section 5.5 outlining the requirements for an agent to take on the
role of a reporting node for host reports.

Regards,

Steve

On 1/28/14 2:13 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #24: Terminology and Abbreviations
>
>  This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli.
>
>  Section 2. contains a definition of Diameter layer Load Balancing that
>  does not appear to be needed.  This was originally included as one of the
>  features of a Server Front End.  Given that SFE has been removed this can
>  be removed as well.
>
>  The definition of Topology Hiding is the generic Diameter topology hiding
>  definition.  This is different than the server identity hiding that an
>  agent might optionally do.  We should probably remove this definition and
>  insert a definition of server identity hiding for an agent that is
>  aggregating overload state across a server farm.
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">There has been no
      discussion of this ticket.<br>
      <br>
      I propose that the definition of Diameter layer load balancing be
      removed.<br>
      <br>
      I propose removing the definition of Topology Hiding, as it has
      meanings outside of the context of Diameter overload.<br>
      <br>
      I also propose that we remove any discussion of agents acting as
      server front ends or topology hiders.Â  I propose instead to have a
      discussion in section 5.5 outlining the requirements for an agent
      to take on the role of a reporting node for host reports.<br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/28/14 2:13 PM, dime issue tracker
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:066.30fbf9b68075ea84e4d6fcf5261cf53e@trac.tools.ietf.org"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">#24: Terminology and Abbreviations

 This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli.

 Section 2. contains a definition of Diameter layer Load Balancing that
 does not appear to be needed.  This was originally included as one of the
 features of a Server Front End.  Given that SFE has been removed this can
 be removed as well.

 The definition of Topology Hiding is the generic Diameter topology hiding
 definition.  This is different than the server identity hiding that an
 agent might optionally do.  We should probably remove this definition and
 insert a definition of server identity hiding for an agent that is
 aggregating overload state across a server farm.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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--------------070004040102040207080603--


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #25: Section 3.1.5 Diameter Agent Behavior
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There has been no discussion of this ticket.

After further thought, I propose that this section be removed and the
requirements for agents acting as reporting nodes for host reports be
included in section 5.5.

If the section is kept then I propose removing the term "topology
hiding" and use server front end instead.  If we take this approach then
we need to have a definition of SFE in the terminology section.

Steve


On 1/28/14 2:18 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #25: Section 3.1.5 Diameter Agent Behavior
>
>  This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli.
>
>  There are a number of concepts mentioned in this section that are not
>  sufficiently defined.  This includes Server Front End, topology hiding SFE
>  and back-to-back agent.
>
>  I suggest that we add the definition of SFE back to the terminology
>  section.
>
>  I also suggest that we start using the term "Server Identity Hiding" and
>  not use the term Topology Hiding.  Topology Hiding has a meaning outside
>  of DOIC that does not fit for DOIC.
>
>  I also think we should remove the concept of back-to-back agent.
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">There has been no
      discussion of this ticket.<br>
      <br>
      After further thought, I propose that this section be removed and
      the requirements for agents acting as reporting nodes for host
      reports be included in section 5.5.<br>
      <br>
      If the section is kept then I propose removing the term "topology
      hiding" and use server front end instead.Â  If we take this
      approach then we need to have a definition of SFE in the terminology
      section.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/28/14 2:18 PM, dime issue tracker
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:066.bb0f61f3d4c3a1f543554c66031a4edd@trac.tools.ietf.org"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">#25: Section 3.1.5 Diameter Agent Behavior

 This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli.

 There are a number of concepts mentioned in this section that are not
 sufficiently defined.  This includes Server Front End, topology hiding SFE
 and back-to-back agent.

 I suggest that we add the definition of SFE back to the terminology
 section.

 I also suggest that we start using the term "Server Identity Hiding" and
 not use the term Topology Hiding.  Topology Hiding has a meaning outside
 of DOIC that does not fit for DOIC.

 I also think we should remove the concept of back-to-back agent.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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--------------070408000306040802060100--


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 14:54:15 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload
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We've had a lot of discussion of this topic.

I believe that we reached agreement that we currently have two types of
reports:

- Host report that applies to requests sent to a destination-host
- Realm report that applies requests routed to a realm that do not have
a specified destination-host (realm-routed requests)

We also have proposed wording on the interaction between these report
types. 

I propose that the second be renamed to realm-routed reports.

A separate ticket has been opened on the need for a third report type
that would apply to all request routed to a realm, independent of
whether a request contains a destination-host AVP.

Steve

On 1/21/14 9:24 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload
>
>  This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01, which does not show up in the
>  Component drop down menu.
>
>  The current assumption in the -01 draft is inconsistent in the definition
>  of behavior of behavior by a reacting node when it receives a realm
>  overload report.
>
>  Section 4.6 says overload treatment should apply to all request bound for
>  the overloaded realm.
>
>  Section 5.5.2 is not clear and there have been interpretations that a
>  realm overload report only applies to requests that contain the realm and
>  do not contain a destination-host AVP.
>
>  Section 5.5.2 should be updated to be consistent with section 4.6.
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">We've had a lot of
      discussion of this topic.<br>
      <br>
      I believe that we reached agreement that we currently have two
      types of reports:<br>
      <br>
      - Host report that applies to requests sent to a destination-host<br>
      - Realm report that applies requests routed to a realm that do not
      have a specified destination-host (realm-routed requests)<br>
      <br>
      We also have proposed wording on the interaction between these
      report types.Â  <br>
      <br>
      I propose that the second be renamed to realm-routed reports.<br>
      <br>
      A separate ticket has been opened on the need for a third report
      type that would apply to all request routed to a realm,
      independent of whether a request contains a destination-host AVP.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/21/14 9:24 AM, dime issue tracker
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:066.bc8b33b812f849d70cc96ca6c7f6d77d@trac.tools.ietf.org"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">#23: DOIC behavior for realm overload

 This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01, which does not show up in the
 Component drop down menu.

 The current assumption in the -01 draft is inconsistent in the definition
 of behavior of behavior by a reacting node when it receives a realm
 overload report.

 Section 4.6 says overload treatment should apply to all request bound for
 the overloaded realm.

 Section 5.5.2 is not clear and there have been interpretations that a
 realm overload report only applies to requests that contain the realm and
 do not contain a destination-host AVP.

 Section 5.5.2 should be updated to be consistent with section 4.6.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------090104000005040207030900--


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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Steve,

I'm ok with Unsinged64 but then the second principle that says "...must be =
 greater ..." needs some enhancements to cover the overflow.

Ulrich





From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 9:11 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status

Ulrich,

See comments inline.

Steve
On 2/19/14 9:33 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

I understand that we agreed the following principles:

Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not correspond to t=
he point in time of generation.
SRD> I don't agree that the type should be time.  It should be of type Unsi=
gned64.  A time stamp can be inserted into it but we should not prevent sim=
ple sequence numbers.  I agree with the remainder of the statement.


When generated, a new sequence number must be  greater than any sequence nu=
mber previously generated by the same node (including over a reboot of that=
 node)
SRD> Agreed


When received, a sequence number is used to detect outdates/replays/freshne=
ss.
SRD> Agreed


Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting nodes.
SRD> Agreed



I did not understand the requirement for globally uniqueness as introduced =
by Jouni.
Can Jouni please explain.

Ulrich







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family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m =
ok with Unsinged64 but then the second principle that says &#8220;&#8230;</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">must
 be&nbsp; greater </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8230;&=
#8221; needs some enhancements to cover the overflow.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 19, 2014 9:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
<br>
See comments inline.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/19/14 9:33 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I understand that we agreed the followi=
ng principles:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sequence-Number is of type Time, howeve=
r the value need not correspond to the point in time of generation.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">SRD&gt; I don't agree that the type should be time.&nbsp=
; It should be of type Unsigned64.&nbsp; A time stamp can be inserted into =
it but we should not prevent simple sequence numbers.&nbsp; I agree with th=
e
 remainder of the statement.</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">When generated, a new sequence number m=
ust be&nbsp; greater than any sequence number previously generated by the s=
ame node (including over a reboot of that node)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">SRD&gt; Agreed</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">When received, a sequence number is use=
d to detect outdates/replays/freshness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">SRD&gt; Agreed</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST N=
OT be remembered by reacting nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">SRD&gt; Agreed</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I did not understand the requirement fo=
r globally uniqueness as introduced by Jouni.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Can Jouni please explain.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #25: Section 3.1.5 Diameter Agent Behavior
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Issue#34 proposed conclusion
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#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear all,

Apart from potentially renaming "realm report" to something else (I don't l=
ike "realm routed report" as its not the report that is realm-routed) I bel=
ieve we finally agreed to accept the text as proposed in ticket#34 and repl=
ace the corresponding text from clause 4.6.

Ulrich




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<div>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dear all,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Apart from potentially renaming &#8220;realm report&#8221; to somethin=
g else (I don&#8217;t like &#8220;realm routed report&#8221; as its not the=
 report that is realm-routed) I believe we finally agreed to accept the tex=
t as proposed in ticket#34 and replace the corresponding text
from clause 4.6.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Ulrich</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
</body>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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#35: additional report types are proposed

Dear all,

I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:

When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

Ulrich





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<div>#35: additional report types are proposed</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dear all,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However=
, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Consolas" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;">W=
hen an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client=
 not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the orig=
in-host of the client.</span></font></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Ulrich</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Thread-Topic: #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info - proposed conclusion
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Subject: [Dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info - proposed conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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On Feb 18, 2014, at 12:04 PM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) =
<jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:

> Hi all
> =20
> 1)      I come back on this Steve=92s comment : =93Define the =
interaction between realm, realm-routed and host report types.  This is =
probably the most difficult part that is likely to require some =
discussion=94.

I don't think that's necessarily hard as long as you aren't mixing =
algorithms. I think you will get close enough for our purposes if you =
apply the "most restrictive" active report to any requests that fall =
into the overlap of more than one active report. You could get into =
cross-set calculations, but I don't think the gain in precision would be =
enough to make it worth the complexity.

OTOH, I don't know what it means to have an overlap between "loss" and =
"rate". I'd lean towards forbidding that sort of thing, but I'm not sure =
if it can really be prevented.
=20

> This joins one of  my remarks about the overlapping between different =
reports in a previous mail and drives to the use cases regarding realm =
overload:
> =20
> -          If realm overload is due to server overload, I would think =
that  our current  mechanism dealing with host report and realm (alias =
realm-routed) report will address / solve server overload  and in =
consequence indirectly  address / solve  this overload realm  case
> -          if realm overload is due to the overload of Diameter =
agents, we have discussion and a Steve=92s  proposal   about  Agent =
overload. I would also think that by addressing / solving the DA =
overload, it would also address and solve this overload realm  case.
> -          About an underlying  network congestion (eg due to network =
outage), here REQ 13 mentions that =93The solution MUST NOT interfere =
with the congestion control mechanisms of underlying transport =
protocols=94. So here I am also questioning if  we may have  duplication =
or overlapping, and what to do .

Nothing proposed so far would _interfere_ with with transport congestion =
control mechanisms.=20


> -          Have we other realm overload use cases?
> =20
> So my current thinking is  we have first  to identify the various =
realm  overload use cases and see those actually justifying to add new =
mechanisms.
> =20

I think Steve has offered reasonable justification, especially if 3GPP =
already has this requirement.

I also think this is important for cross-realm cases, where one realm =
may not want to share any more detail than "reduce traffic to my entire =
realm".


> 2)      I share Ulrich=92s questions  on how to deal with realm =
overload. Steve=92s  answer introduces a high complexity about detecting =
, evaluate the realm overload  and then which DA are acting etc. The =
fact to consider many of these points out of the scope does not suppress =
this complexity (which in addition occurs in an overloaded environment=85)=
 . So  I come back to my point 1 about the use cases to address  and the =
use of the mechanisms for server and DA overload =20

Steve's answers do the opposite--he basically says that those details =
are out of scope for the IETF. (That doesn't prevent 3GPP from coming up =
with some.) There are lots of ways one might determine the overload for =
a realm. It's completely unnecessary to standardize them.

> =20
> Best regards
> =20
> JJacques
> =20
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 18 f=E9vrier 2014 15:55
> =C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> Ulrich,
>=20
> All good questions.
>=20
> I mapped out the use case in a previous email with discussing the =
realm-routed overload report type. =20
>=20
> Maria Cruz also indicated that this is a 3GPP DOC requirement.  I'm =
hoping someone involved in the discussions that lead to that requirement =
can speak up on the use case driving the need for realm reports.
>=20
> The means of detection is out of scope for the DOIC draft, just as it =
is for host and realm-routed report types.  We should, however, include =
wording to explain how it might be done. =20
>=20
> A few bullet points outlining a proposed solution.  I can put together =
a couple of slides explaining this if it would be helpful.
>=20
> - The method of detection can be based on the collected status of =
Diameter nodes in the realm.  It can also be based on the status of the =
underlying network.  For instance, if there is a network outage that =
reduces the effective throughput of the signaling network, the best =
method for handling this might be to signal a realm overload report.
>=20
> - The network element detecting the realm status is out of scope for =
the DOIC document.
>=20
> - The Diameter node that reports realm overload can be any Diameter =
node and is up to the service provider to define.  Assuming we are using =
Diameter answer messages to transport the realm reports, it would need =
to be either all agents or all servers.  This is to guarantee that all =
reacting nodes get the report.
>=20
> - The method that the reporting node is told that the realm is =
overloaded, triggering the realm overload report, is out of scope for =
this document.
>=20
> - Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting =
node.  It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection =
element to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.
>=20
> One way to model this is for an external element being responsible for =
detecting realm overload and signaling the realm overload reporting =
nodes of the status using an out of bands mechanism.  All realm overload =
reporting nodes would be responsible for sending realm overload reports. =
 Reacting nodes would only listen to one of the reporting nodes.
>=20
> There are also security considerations similar to host reports, except =
that an attack using realm overload reports has a much bigger impact =
than an attack using host reports.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/18/14 7:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Steve,
> =20
> first of all I would like to better understand the usecase especially =
on the reporting side.
> Which node would act as a reporting node generating new realm-type =
reports?
> How would this node detect that the complete realm is in overload (and =
what does that mean? All servers in the realm, also clients? Agents? )?
> Would this node be (logically) a single node? If not, how to =
synchronize different new-realm-type reporting nodes so that they don=92t =
report different things to the same reacting node?
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve =
Donovan
> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:48 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> It shouldn't be much work to add realm overload to the draft.  We =
would need to do the following (at a minimum):
>=20
> - Change that name of the current realm report to something like =
"realm-routed".
> - Create a new report type of name realm that applies to all traffic =
routed to the realm.
> - Add a few words in the reporting node section about generation of =
realm reports.
> - Define the interaction between realm, realm-routed and host report =
types.  This is probably the most difficult part that is likely to =
require some discussion.
>=20
> Other then the section on interactions between report types, I don't =
think this impacts the existing text so it should fold in pretty =
cleanly.
>=20
> I'd be happy to take the first shot at this to be included in the -02 =
version of the draft if there is consensus to add it.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/18/14 4:11 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Hello all,
> =20
> Overload of the realm is one of the use cases that is required by 3GPP =
applications.
> And I think this should be part of the basic mechanism, or?
> =20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, =
JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> Sent: lunes, 17 de febrero de 2014 18:53
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> Hi
> =20
> I share the view to analyze the overload of the realm as a whole in a =
separate extension  and see if this lead to another report type.
> =20
> Best regards
> =20
> JJacques
>  =20
> =20
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoy=E9 : lundi 17 f=E9vrier 2014 17:13
> =C0 : Ben Campbell
> Cc : dime@ietf.org list
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> I do think it would be a new report type, as it would require =
different behavior from reacting nodes.
>=20
> I'm ok with this being in a separate extension if the group thinks =
this is the correct approach.  We are creating a good number of =
relatively small extensions.  It might lead to the need to pull them all =
together in a future version of the DOIC draft/RFC.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/14/14 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> (Apologies for coming late to this thread)
> =20
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:35 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
> =20
> Ok, Ok, no reason to gang up on me. :-)
> What we have here is an overload report to reduce realm routed =
requests.  I think we should be explicit in the draft to define it as =
such.
> =20
> =20
> At the risk of joining the anti-Steve gang, I feel the need to =
belatedly mention that my personal intent way back when we talked about =
the mixed-state problem was that realm reports applied to realm-routed =
requests.=20
> =20
> I am still concerned that we do not have a way to indicate overload of =
the realm as a whole.  I'll enter a new trouble ticket to capture this =
issue.
> =20
> =20
> I do not object to adding that ability. Would it be a new OLR type? If =
so, would it need to go in the base draft or could it be an extension?
> =20
> Steve
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#29 proposed conclusion
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I concur with removing the sequence number from OC-Supported-Features.

On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:44 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> I have received comments from Lionel, Jouni and Steve;
> I understand that Lionel and myself support removal of =
OC-Sequence-Number AVP from OC-Supported-Features AVP while Jouni has no =
strong view.  I=92m not sure whether Steve is convinced by the response =
given to his comments.
> =20
> In summary I dare to propose that we conclude in favour of removing =
OC-Sequence-Number from OC-Supported-Features.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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+1

On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Agreed
>=20
> On 2/19/14 8:17 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> #31: Sending OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that =
survived a throttling
>> =20
>> Dear all,
>> =20
>> I did not receive much support for the proposal to define an =
OC-Ongoing-Throttling-Info AVP in request messages that survived a =
throttlting.
>> =20
>> However, we seem to agree on some principles:
>> =20
>> Missing OLR in answer means =93no change=94; it does not mean =93no =
overload/no throttling requested=94
>> =20
>> Reporting nodes SHOULD include OLR in every answer that it sends in =
response to a request message which indicatedOLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support =
unless the reporting node has very good reasons not to do so. Exact =
wording is not yet agreed.
>> =20
>> Ulrich
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>>=20
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #24: Terminology and Abbreviations
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+1

On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> There has been no discussion of this ticket.
>=20
> I propose that the definition of Diameter layer load balancing be =
removed.
>=20
> I propose removing the definition of Topology Hiding, as it has =
meanings outside of the context of Diameter overload.
>=20
> I also propose that we remove any discussion of agents acting as =
server front ends or topology hiders.  I propose instead to have a =
discussion in section 5.5 outlining the requirements for an agent to =
take on the role of a reporting node for host reports.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 1/28/14 2:13 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>> #24: Terminology and Abbreviations
>>=20
>>  This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli.
>>=20
>>  Section 2. contains a definition of Diameter layer Load Balancing =
that
>>  does not appear to be needed.  This was originally included as one =
of the
>>  features of a Server Front End.  Given that SFE has been removed =
this can
>>  be removed as well.
>>=20
>>  The definition of Topology Hiding is the generic Diameter topology =
hiding
>>  definition.  This is different than the server identity hiding that =
an
>>  agent might optionally do.  We should probably remove this =
definition and
>>  insert a definition of server identity hiding for an agent that is
>>  aggregating overload state across a server farm.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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+1

On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> We've had a lot of discussion of this topic.
>=20
> I believe that we reached agreement that we currently have two types =
of reports:
>=20
> - Host report that applies to requests sent to a destination-host
> - Realm report that applies requests routed to a realm that do not =
have a specified destination-host (realm-routed requests)
>=20
> We also have proposed wording on the interaction between these report =
types. =20
>=20
> I propose that the second be renamed to realm-routed reports.
>=20
> A separate ticket has been opened on the need for a third report type =
that would apply to all request routed to a realm, independent of =
whether a request contains a destination-host AVP.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 1/21/14 9:24 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>> #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload
>>=20
>>  This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01, which does not show up in =
the
>>  Component drop down menu.
>>=20
>>  The current assumption in the -01 draft is inconsistent in the =
definition
>>  of behavior of behavior by a reacting node when it receives a realm
>>  overload report.
>>=20
>>  Section 4.6 says overload treatment should apply to all request =
bound for
>>  the overloaded realm.
>>=20
>>  Section 5.5.2 is not clear and there have been interpretations that =
a
>>  realm overload report only applies to requests that contain the =
realm and
>>  do not contain a destination-host AVP.
>>=20
>>  Section 5.5.2 should be updated to be consistent with section 4.6.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:11 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

>>> Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not =
correspond to the point in time of generation.
>> SRD> I don't agree that the type should be time.  It should be of =
type Unsigned64.  A time stamp can be inserted into it but we should not =
prevent simple sequence numbers.  I agree with the remainder of the =
statement.
>=20


+1. Making it type Time implies that the recipient can do something time =
related with the value. That is not the case here.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #25: Section 3.1.5 Diameter Agent Behavior
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I am working on some a proposal for some new "overview of operation" =
language that might help here. Unfortunately, I don't know if I will =
have it in time for the meeting, but I will try.

On Feb 20, 2014, at 4:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hello Steve, all,
> =20
> The intention of chapters 3.1.5 and 5.5 is totally different.
> In order to be able to agree or disagree I would need to have a =
written proposal of the changes and an explanation of the reason for =
these changes.
> =20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
> Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 19 de febrero de 2014 21:30
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #25: Section 3.1.5 Diameter Agent Behavior
> =20
> There has been no discussion of this ticket.
>=20
> After further thought, I propose that this section be removed and the =
requirements for agents acting as reporting nodes for host reports be =
included in section 5.5.
>=20
> If the section is kept then I propose removing the term "topology =
hiding" and use server front end instead.  If we take this approach then =
we need to have a definition of SFE in the terminology section.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
>=20
> On 1/28/14 2:18 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #25: Section 3.1.5 Diameter Agent Behavior
> =20
>  This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli.
> =20
>  There are a number of concepts mentioned in this section that are not
>  sufficiently defined.  This includes Server Front End, topology =
hiding SFE
>  and back-to-back agent.
> =20
>  I suggest that we add the definition of SFE back to the terminology
>  section.
> =20
>  I also suggest that we start using the term "Server Identity Hiding" =
and
>  not use the term Topology Hiding.  Topology Hiding has a meaning =
outside
>  of DOIC that does not fit for DOIC.
> =20
>  I also think we should remove the concept of back-to-back agent.
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> #35: additional report types are proposed
> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. =
However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
> =20
> When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a =
client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to =
the origin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client. =
If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is =
the reacting node from the server's perspective. But, short of adding an =
origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, =
regardless of DOIC support at the clients.

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For =
DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing =
traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting =
nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It =
doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.=


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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Ulrich,
>=20
> All good questions.
>=20
> I mapped out the use case in a previous email with discussing the =
realm-routed overload report type. =20
>=20
> Maria Cruz also indicated that this is a 3GPP DOC requirement.  I'm =
hoping someone involved in the discussions that lead to that requirement =
can speak up on the use case driving the need for realm reports.
>=20
> The means of detection is out of scope for the DOIC draft, just as it =
is for host and realm-routed report types.  We should, however, include =
wording to explain how it might be done. =20
>=20
> A few bullet points outlining a proposed solution.  I can put together =
a couple of slides explaining this if it would be helpful.
>=20
> - The method of detection can be based on the collected status of =
Diameter nodes in the realm.  It can also be based on the status of the =
underlying network.  For instance, if there is a network outage that =
reduces the effective throughput of the signaling network, the best =
method for handling this might be to signal a realm overload report.
>=20
> - The network element detecting the realm status is out of scope for =
the DOIC document.
>=20
> - The Diameter node that reports realm overload can be any Diameter =
node and is up to the service provider to define.  Assuming we are using =
Diameter answer messages to transport the realm reports, it would need =
to be either all agents or all servers.  This is to guarantee that all =
reacting nodes get the report.

I think "any Diameter node" is too broad. It has to be node that is, at =
least sometimes, in the path for requests for that particular =
realm+application.  (Although I note that explicit realm and application =
AVPs in an OLR would fix that ;-)  )

>=20
> - The method that the reporting node is told that the realm is =
overloaded, triggering the realm overload report, is out of scope for =
this document.
>=20

Agreed, although one possible way to do it would be for the reporting =
node to be an agent that infers general realm overload based on upstream =
overload information.

> - Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting =
node.  It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection =
element to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.

I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be _sent_ =
by reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for the =
realm's overload state. But there's no requirement that there be only =
one, just that if there are more than one they don't contradict each =
other.

>=20
> One way to model this is for an external element being responsible for =
detecting realm overload and signaling the realm overload reporting =
nodes of the status using an out of bands mechanism.  All realm overload =
reporting nodes would be responsible for sending realm overload reports. =
 Reacting nodes would only listen to one of the reporting nodes.
>=20
> There are also security considerations similar to host reports, except =
that an attack using realm overload reports has a much bigger impact =
than an attack using host reports.

Yep. IIRC, We already have language in the security considerations that =
reacting nodes need to properly authorize sources of OLRs. That applies =
here as well.

(Maybe it's time to propose an "all-realms" report type :-) )



From nobody Thu Feb 20 22:27:38 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info - proposed conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info - proposed conclusion
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I agree
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 5:17 PM
To: dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] #50: OC-OLR AVP implicit info - proposed conclusion


Hello all,

My understanding is that the following conclusion is reached:

 Now (chapter 4.3):

    The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicit information to which
    application it applies to and who inserted the AVP or whom the
    specific OC-OLR AVP concerns to. Both these information is
    implicitly learned from the encapsulating Diameter message/command.
    The application the OC-OLR AVP applies to is the same as the
    Application-Id found in the Diameter message header.  The identity
    the OC-OLR AVP concerns is determined from the Origin-Host AVP found
    from the encapsulating Diameter command.

Will be replaced by:

The OC-OLR AVP does not contain explicitly all information needed by=20
the reacting node in order to decide whether a subsequent request must=20
undergo a throttling process with the received reduction percentage.
The value of the OC-Report-Type AVP within the OC-OLR AVP indicates=20
which implicit information is relevant for this decision (see clause 4.6).


This conclusion is based on proposed conclusion for #Issue 34


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From nobody Thu Feb 20 22:49:01 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Ben, Steve, all

Let's conclude on #34.
The particular question under discussion here actually belongs to #55

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:16 AM
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP


On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> Ulrich,
>=20
> All good questions.
>=20
> I mapped out the use case in a previous email with discussing the realm-r=
outed overload report type. =20
>=20
> Maria Cruz also indicated that this is a 3GPP DOC requirement.  I'm hopin=
g someone involved in the discussions that lead to that requirement can spe=
ak up on the use case driving the need for realm reports.
>=20
> The means of detection is out of scope for the DOIC draft, just as it is =
for host and realm-routed report types.  We should, however, include wordin=
g to explain how it might be done. =20
>=20
> A few bullet points outlining a proposed solution.  I can put together a =
couple of slides explaining this if it would be helpful.
>=20
> - The method of detection can be based on the collected status of Diamete=
r nodes in the realm.  It can also be based on the status of the underlying=
 network.  For instance, if there is a network outage that reduces the effe=
ctive throughput of the signaling network, the best method for handling thi=
s might be to signal a realm overload report.
>=20
> - The network element detecting the realm status is out of scope for the =
DOIC document.
>=20
> - The Diameter node that reports realm overload can be any Diameter node =
and is up to the service provider to define.  Assuming we are using Diamete=
r answer messages to transport the realm reports, it would need to be eithe=
r all agents or all servers.  This is to guarantee that all reacting nodes =
get the report.

I think "any Diameter node" is too broad. It has to be node that is, at lea=
st sometimes, in the path for requests for that particular realm+applicatio=
n.  (Although I note that explicit realm and application AVPs in an OLR wou=
ld fix that ;-)  )

>=20
> - The method that the reporting node is told that the realm is overloaded=
, triggering the realm overload report, is out of scope for this document.
>=20

Agreed, although one possible way to do it would be for the reporting node =
to be an agent that infers general realm overload based on upstream overloa=
d information.

> - Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting node.=
  It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection element to=
 make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.

I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be _sent_ by=
 reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for the realm's =
overload state. But there's no requirement that there be only one, just tha=
t if there are more than one they don't contradict each other.

>=20
> One way to model this is for an external element being responsible for de=
tecting realm overload and signaling the realm overload reporting nodes of =
the status using an out of bands mechanism.  All realm overload reporting n=
odes would be responsible for sending realm overload reports.  Reacting nod=
es would only listen to one of the reporting nodes.
>=20
> There are also security considerations similar to host reports, except th=
at an attack using realm overload reports has a much bigger impact than an =
attack using host reports.

Yep. IIRC, We already have language in the security considerations that rea=
cting nodes need to properly authorize sources of OLRs. That applies here a=
s well.

(Maybe it's time to propose an "all-realms" report type :-) )



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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload
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From nobody Fri Feb 21 00:34:43 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Subject: [Dime]  #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
=20
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter
 message a DOIC
 supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
replace SHOULD by MUST


From nobody Fri Feb 21 00:40:32 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Subject: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
=20
Following agreement is reached:

 Now (chapter 4.7):
    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
=20
 Proposal:
   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32 =20
   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is =20
   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.          =
        <----
=20
=20
 Now (chapter 5.5.2):
      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100

  Proposal:
 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce=20
 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
 reacting node would send 100 packets to the				<---
 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20
 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       =
<---
 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to=20
 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=20
 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try=20
 to recover from it.


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From nobody Fri Feb 21 01:06:59 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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Ben,

my preference for Time was based on the assumtion that it implicitly covers=
 the overflow   (see RFC 6733 clause 4.3.1).

I'm ok with Unsigned64, but then we need to address overflow more precisely=
, e.g.:

For the reacting node: a newly received sequence number Sn must be consider=
ed fresher than a stored sequence number Ss if and only if Ss < Sn < Ss+2^6=
3 or Sn < Ss-2^63.
For the reporting node: when Sl is the last generated sequence number and S=
o is the oldest potentially not yet expired sequence number, a newly genera=
ted sequence number Sn must comply with ( Sl < Sn < Sl+2^63 or Sn < sl-2^63=
 )and( So < Sn < So+2^63 or Sn < So-2^63 ).

Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:43 PM
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status


On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:11 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

>>> Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not correspond =
to the point in time of generation.
>> SRD> I don't agree that the type should be time.  It should be of type U=
nsigned64.  A time stamp can be inserted into it but we should not prevent =
simple sequence numbers.  I agree with the remainder of the statement.
>=20


+1. Making it type Time implies that the recipient can do something time re=
lated with the value. That is not the case here.

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime]  #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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I do not agree
I think the conclusion was to say:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.

For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.

Ulrich =20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
=20
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter
 message a DOIC
 supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
replace SHOULD by MUST

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From nobody Fri Feb 21 01:23:35 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime]  #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
Thread-Index: AQHPLuX68aES9cpBlkeq6x7MGvA5R5q/boKg
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 09:23:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provided a w=
rong rephrasing.
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.


-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

I do not agree
I think the conclusion was to say:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.

For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.

Ulrich =20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
=20
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
replace SHOULD by MUST

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 09:47:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
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Hello all,

I understand JJ point of view, but I still tend to prefer to make it mandat=
ory, since I think this is less error-prone, since the only node that knows=
 the requested Report-Type is the reporting, if for any reason a reporting =
is omitting it (since it is optional), it will be always interpreted as HOS=
T, but this type may be wrong.

I think DEFAULT values should never be error-prone, but used in "general ca=
ses", as a simplification, like e.g. a default for the Validity-Duration. D=
efault Validity-Duration will never be an "error", it could be not the best=
 value (compared with another value perfectly tuned to reporting node overl=
oad situation) but never the use of a Default value should lead to an erron=
eous behavior.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: viernes, 14 de febrero de 2014 23:13
To: Jouni Korhonen
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP

I actually prefer making it mandatory. The cost of adding it is trivial--ev=
en more so for a reporting node that only supports the default. The value o=
f having it is less opportunity for interop errors.

On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
> Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there because at=20
> the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry on every extra AVP ;-)
>=20
> I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value just like it=20
> is now. We have the same for the reduction percentage and the validity=20
> time as well.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jea=
n-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Mcruz
>>=20
>> The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is of ty=
pe Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference.=20
>> We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where statistic=
ally the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped OLR-AVP con=
taining a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a small optimiza=
tion.
>>=20
>> Best regards
>>=20
>> JJacques
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de=20
>> lionel.morand@orange.com Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:46 =C0=
 :=20
>> dime@ietf.org; maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com Objet : Re: [Dime]=20
>> [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>=20
>> Hi Maria Cruz,
>>=20
>> I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?
>>=20
>> So instead of:
>>=20
>>  OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>             < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>             [ OC-Report-Type ]
>>             [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>             [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>           * [ AVP ]
>>=20
>> You would prefer:
>>=20
>>  OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>             < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>             { OC-Report-Type }
>>             [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>             [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>           * [ AVP ]
>>=20
>> And I'm fine with this proposal.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue=20
>> tracker Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:26 =C0 :=20
>> maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com Cc : dime@ietf.org Objet : [Dime]=20
>> [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>=20
>> #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>=20
>> Now in chapter 4.6:
>>=20
>>   The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
>>   report).
>>=20
>> This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise tha=
t  we define this AVP as mandatory.
>>=20
>> --
>> -----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>>    Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
>> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>>                                              |   Keywords:
>> -----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>=20
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> _____________________________________________________________________
>> ____________________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confi=
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ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuil=
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 Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline=
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i.
>>=20
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>> Thank you.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #24: Terminology and Abbreviations
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 09:58:22 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #24: Terminology and Abbreviations
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Hello,

I agree about the information removal mentioned.
About new text on 5.5, this may be helpful, but agreement should be based o=
n specific text provided...
Cheers
/MCruz


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: jueves, 20 de febrero de 2014 23:34
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #24: Terminology and Abbreviations

+1

On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> There has been no discussion of this ticket.
>=20
> I propose that the definition of Diameter layer load balancing be removed=
.
>=20
> I propose removing the definition of Topology Hiding, as it has meanings =
outside of the context of Diameter overload.
>=20
> I also propose that we remove any discussion of agents acting as server f=
ront ends or topology hiders.  I propose instead to have a discussion in se=
ction 5.5 outlining the requirements for an agent to take on the role of a =
reporting node for host reports.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 1/28/14 2:13 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>> #24: Terminology and Abbreviations
>>=20
>>  This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli.
>>=20
>>  Section 2. contains a definition of Diameter layer Load Balancing=20
>> that  does not appear to be needed.  This was originally included as=20
>> one of the  features of a Server Front End.  Given that SFE has been=20
>> removed this can  be removed as well.
>>=20
>>  The definition of Topology Hiding is the generic Diameter topology=20
>> hiding  definition.  This is different than the server identity=20
>> hiding that an  agent might optionally do.  We should probably remove=20
>> this definition and  insert a definition of server identity hiding=20
>> for an agent that is  aggregating overload state across a server farm.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 10:48:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client
Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different=
 amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35
3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

> #35: additional report types are proposed
> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, w=
e agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
> =20
> When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a cli=
ent not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the o=
rigin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>
 If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is t=
he reacting node from the server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>
 But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a parti=
cular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #24: Terminology and Abbreviations
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--------------010407060305050404020201
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Maria Cruz,

I agree with the need to have text before agreement is reached on that text.

Steve

On 2/21/14 3:58 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I agree about the information removal mentioned.
> About new text on 5.5, this may be helpful, but agreement should be based on specific text provided...
> Cheers
> /MCruz
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
> Sent: jueves, 20 de febrero de 2014 23:34
> To: Steve Donovan
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #24: Terminology and Abbreviations
>
> +1
>
> On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>> There has been no discussion of this ticket.
>>
>> I propose that the definition of Diameter layer load balancing be removed.
>>
>> I propose removing the definition of Topology Hiding, as it has meanings outside of the context of Diameter overload.
>>
>> I also propose that we remove any discussion of agents acting as server front ends or topology hiders.  I propose instead to have a discussion in section 5.5 outlining the requirements for an agent to take on the role of a reporting node for host reports.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 1/28/14 2:13 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
>>> #24: Terminology and Abbreviations
>>>
>>>  This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli.
>>>
>>>  Section 2. contains a definition of Diameter layer Load Balancing 
>>> that  does not appear to be needed.  This was originally included as 
>>> one of the  features of a Server Front End.  Given that SFE has been 
>>> removed this can  be removed as well.
>>>
>>>  The definition of Topology Hiding is the generic Diameter topology 
>>> hiding  definition.  This is different than the server identity 
>>> hiding that an  agent might optionally do.  We should probably remove 
>>> this definition and  insert a definition of server identity hiding 
>>> for an agent that is  aggregating overload state across a server farm.
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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<html>
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Maria Cruz,<br>
      <br>
      I agree with the need to have text before agreement is reached on
      that text.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/21/14 3:58 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920978411B@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hello,

I agree about the information removal mentioned.
About new text on 5.5, this may be helpful, but agreement should be based on specific text provided...
Cheers
/MCruz


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: jueves, 20 de febrero de 2014 23:34
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #24: Terminology and Abbreviations

+1

On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">There has been no discussion of this ticket.

I propose that the definition of Diameter layer load balancing be removed.

I propose removing the definition of Topology Hiding, as it has meanings outside of the context of Diameter overload.

I also propose that we remove any discussion of agents acting as server front ends or topology hiders.  I propose instead to have a discussion in section 5.5 outlining the requirements for an agent to take on the role of a reporting node for host reports.

Regards,

Steve

On 1/28/14 2:13 PM, dime issue tracker wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">#24: Terminology and Abbreviations

 This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli.

 Section 2. contains a definition of Diameter layer Load Balancing 
that  does not appear to be needed.  This was originally included as 
one of the  features of a Server Front End.  Given that SFE has been 
removed this can  be removed as well.

 The definition of Topology Hiding is the generic Diameter topology 
hiding  definition.  This is different than the server identity 
hiding that an  agent might optionally do.  We should probably remove 
this definition and  insert a definition of server identity hiding 
for an agent that is  aggregating overload state across a server farm.


</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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+1
On 2/21/14 3:23 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provided a wrong rephrasing.
> My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:
>
> #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
>
>  Now:
>  The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  message a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
>  
> Proposal:
> The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request message a DOIC supporting node sends.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] 
> Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
>
> I do not agree
> I think the conclusion was to say:
> The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request message a DOIC supporting node sends.
>
> For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.
>
> Ulrich  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
>
> #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
>  
> My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:
>
>  Now:
>  The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  message a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
>  
> Proposal:
> replace SHOULD by MUST
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/21/14 3:23 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920978409B@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provided a wrong rephrasing.
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  message a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
 
Proposal:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request message a DOIC supporting node sends.


-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] 
Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

I do not agree
I think the conclusion was to say:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request message a DOIC supporting node sends.

For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.

Ulrich  

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
 
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  message a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
 
Proposal:
replace SHOULD by MUST

_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
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Maria Cruz,

I think we need to see the replacement text before concluding this ticket.

Steve

On 2/21/14 2:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?
>
> Following text will be deleted:
>
>     .........  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP
>     is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
>     Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
>     recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
>     the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
>     replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.
>
>  As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the same chapter.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Maria Cruz,<br>
      <br>
      I think we need to see the replacement text before concluding this
      ticket.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/21/14 2:51 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784033@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
#53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?

Following text will be deleted:

    .........  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP
    is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
    Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
    recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
    the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
    replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.

 As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the same chapter.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change
below.

Steve

On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>  
> Following agreement is reached:
>
>  Now (chapter 4.7):
>     The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
>     and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>     requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
>  
>  Proposal:
>    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32  
>    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is  
>    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.                  <----
>  
>  
>  Now (chapter 5.5.2):
>       Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
>       reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
>       reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
>       reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
>       of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>       90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
>       reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
>       to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
>       10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
>       logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
>
>   Proposal:
>  Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce 
>  its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
>  reacting node would send 100 packets to the				<---
>  reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
>  10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>  90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       <---
>  reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to 
>  the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th 
>  packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try 
>  to recover from it.
SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the
overload report is active"
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Maria Cruz,<br>
      <br>
      I support your suggested changes.&nbsp; I have one further suggested
      change below.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784017@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
 
Following agreement is reached:

 Now (chapter 4.7):
    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
 
 Proposal:
   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32  
   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is  
   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.                  &lt;----
 
 
 Now (chapter 5.5.2):
      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
      logic try to recover from it.0 &lt; value &lt; 100

  Proposal:
 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce 
 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
 reacting node would send 100 packets to the				&lt;---
 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       &lt;---
 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to 
 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th 
 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try 
 to recover from it.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that
    the overload report is active"<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784017@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
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Steve,

Extracted text is duplicated now, this paragraph I referred is simply wrong=
.
But I agree duplicated text should be revised due to issue#29, but this is =
up to this ticket to provide the alternative text.

Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 16:33
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion

Maria Cruz,

I think we need to see the replacement text before concluding this ticket.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:



#53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?



Following text will be deleted:



    .........  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP

    is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-

    Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/

    recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either

    the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional

    replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.



 As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the same ch=
apter.





_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Extracted text is duplica=
ted now, this paragraph I referred is simply wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I agree duplicated te=
xt should be revised due to issue#29, but this is up to this ticket to prov=
ide the alternative text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 16:33<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
I think we need to see the replacement text before concluding this ticket.<=
br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/21/14 2:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Following text will be deleted:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .........&nbsp; If the OC-Supported-Features AVP<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is received for the first time for the reporting no=
de or the OC-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previous=
ly received/<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow win=
dow), then either<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional o=
r unintentional<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the sa=
me chapter.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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On Feb 21, 2014, at 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from =
Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
> Now you seem to address two points:
> a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
> To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying =
text for 5.5. as follows:
>=20
> When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to =
bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the =
request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20
>=20
> This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of =
the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but =
also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a =
reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the =
same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.
>=20
> b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client
> Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting =
different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we =
have 3 options:
> 1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
> 2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35
> 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.
>=20
> So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

That approach implies the 3GPP requirement is the _only_ case. The =
result is, a DOIC agent cannot apply a single OLR to requests from =
multiple clients, ever. I don't think that's what we want.=20

I agree there may be times the server wants to send an OLR for a =
specific client, but I don't think it's the default case. I think that =
case would be better handled by a new report type, or by a new optional =
AVP that includes the targeted client's, so that an agent can apply the =
report to requests that include that identity as the Origin-Host. =20


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Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined. 

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC
supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting
node.  This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this
proposal.  I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is
currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent
that receives the request must be the reacting node for that
non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be
the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents
being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this
could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a
single transaction.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for
the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even
for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate
overload reports.  To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR
marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the
request.  Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the
report applies to all clients.  Presence of the AVP would indicate that
the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

Steve

On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Ben,
>
> the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). 
> Now you seem to address two points:
> a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
> To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:
>
> When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. 
>
> This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.
>
> b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client
> Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
> 1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
> 2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35
> 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.
>
> So far I understood that people favoured option 3.
>
> See also inline.
>
> Ulrich
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> #35: additional report types are proposed
>>  
>> Dear all,
>>  
>> I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
>>  
>> When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.
> I do not agree.
>
> You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
> <Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>
>  If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.
> <Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node</Ulrich>
>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
> <Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client</Ulrich>
>
>  Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently
      outlined.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC
      supporting agents between the non supporting client and the
      reporting node.&nbsp; This, I guess, is a general question, not just
      applying to this proposal.&nbsp; I suggest we capture in the agent
      behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that
      the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the
      reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC
      supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the
      non-supporting client.<br>
      <br>
      We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple
      agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting
      clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple
      agents are involved in a single transaction.&nbsp; On the surface it
      doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might
      not be the case with other algorithms.<br>
      <br>
      My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the
      agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to
      differentiate overload reports.&nbsp; To this end I suggest we add an
      indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to
      just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of the
      "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all
      clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies
      to the Origin-Host.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4177@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). 
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. 

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client
Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35
3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>] 
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">#35: additional report types are proposed
 
Dear all,
 
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
 
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;
 If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;
 But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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At the Vancouver IETF meeting I believe there was consensus that Agent
overload needs to be addressed by the DIME working group.

The group wasn't ready to make a decision as to whether it should be
done as a separate document or if it should be incorporated into the
base DOIC specification.

I would like to request guidance from the working group on these two
options. 

My preference is to incorporate agent overload into the base DOIC
specification.

If that is not done then I propose we make the agent overload draft a
working group item.

Regards,

Steve

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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">At the Vancouver IETF
      meeting I believe there was consensus that Agent overload needs to
      be addressed by the DIME working group.<br>
      <br>
      The group wasn't ready to make a decision as to whether it should
      be done as a separate document or if it should be incorporated
      into the base DOIC specification.<br>
      <br>
      I would like to request guidance from the working group on these two
      options.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      My preference is to incorporate agent overload into the base DOIC
      specification.<br>
      <br>
      If that is not done then I propose we make the agent overload
      draft a working group item.<br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
    </font>
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Jouni,
Lionel,

I don't know if these items need to be agenda items for the meeting but
I would like to get a sense from the working group for the direction we
should take on agent overload (see previous email).  I also propose that
draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt be made a working group item.

Steve

On 2/19/14 3:28 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Slightly late as always..
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime
>
> We have reserved as much time as possible for the overload
> topic.
>
> Agenda comments/change requests asap, please.
>
>
> - Jouni & Lionel
>
> **
>
>
> DIME WG IETF 89 Agenda  
>
> Chairs:
> Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen at broadcom.com>
> Lionel Morand@ <lionel.morand at orange.com>
>
> Jabber room: dime at jabber.ietf.org (Please join)
> THURSDAY, March 6, 2014
> 0900-1130  Morning Session I (150 mins)
> Richmond/Chelsea/Tower
>
> 09:00 - 09:10, Preliminaries (10 minutes)
> ------------------------------------------
> Audio/Video & Remote Presentation Debugging
> Note Well
> Note Takers
> Jabber scribe
> Agenda bash
> Document Status
>
>  o draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-21   -> IESG
>  o draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req-01        -> About ready -> WGLC
>  o draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03    -> in WG
>  o draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01               -> in WG
>  o draft-ietf-dime-pmip6-lr-18           -> AUTH48
>  o draft-ietf-dime-rfc4005bis-14         -> AUTH48
>
> Working group draft discussion (20 minutes)
> -------------------------------------------
>
> 09:10 - 09:30 Diameter Group Signaling, Marco (20 minutes)
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/
>
> Chartered individual draft discussion (15 minutes)
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> 09:30 - 09:45 Diameter Congestion and Filter Attributes, Brent (15 minutes)
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-congestion-flow-attributes/
>
> Diamater Overload discussion (80 minutes)
> -----------------------------------------
>
> 09:45 - 11:05 Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance, Jouni/Steve (80 minutes)
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/
>
>
> + 15 mins buffer / break..
>
> Wrap-up (10 minutes)
> --------------------
> 11:20 - 11:30 Next Steps: WG Chairs & ADs (10 minutes) 
> WG Goals/Milestones status, next steps 
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Jouni,<br>
      Lionel,<br>
      <br>
      I don't know if these items need to be agenda items for the
      meeting but I would like to get a sense from the working group for
      the direction we should take on agent overload (see previous
      email).&nbsp; I also propose that
      draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt be made a working group
      item.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/19/14 3:28 AM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:DF4FC17E-E6C3-495B-BA3E-2F767202071C@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Folks,

Slightly late as always..
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime</a>

We have reserved as much time as possible for the overload
topic.

Agenda comments/change requests asap, please.


- Jouni &amp; Lionel

**


DIME WG IETF 89 Agenda  

Chairs:
Jouni Korhonen &lt;jouni.korhonen at broadcom.com&gt;
Lionel Morand@ &lt;lionel.morand at orange.com&gt;

Jabber room: dime at jabber.ietf.org (Please join)
THURSDAY, March 6, 2014
0900-1130  Morning Session I (150 mins)
Richmond/Chelsea/Tower

09:00 - 09:10, Preliminaries (10 minutes)
------------------------------------------
Audio/Video &amp; Remote Presentation Debugging
Note Well
Note Takers
Jabber scribe
Agenda bash
Document Status

 o draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-21   -&gt; IESG
 o draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req-01        -&gt; About ready -&gt; WGLC
 o draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03    -&gt; in WG
 o draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01               -&gt; in WG
 o draft-ietf-dime-pmip6-lr-18           -&gt; AUTH48
 o draft-ietf-dime-rfc4005bis-14         -&gt; AUTH48

Working group draft discussion (20 minutes)
-------------------------------------------

09:10 - 09:30 Diameter Group Signaling, Marco (20 minutes)
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/</a>

Chartered individual draft discussion (15 minutes)
--------------------------------------------------

09:30 - 09:45 Diameter Congestion and Filter Attributes, Brent (15 minutes)
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-congestion-flow-attributes/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-congestion-flow-attributes/</a>

Diamater Overload discussion (80 minutes)
-----------------------------------------

09:45 - 11:05 Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance, Jouni/Steve (80 minutes)
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/</a>


+ 15 mins buffer / break..

Wrap-up (10 minutes)
--------------------
11:20 - 11:30 Next Steps: WG Chairs &amp; ADs (10 minutes) 
WG Goals/Milestones status, next steps 
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

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From: "DOLLY, MARTIN C" <md3135@att.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Draft agenda for IETF#89 DIME meeting
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 17:19:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Draft agenda for IETF#89 DIME meeting
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AT&T supports the rate-control be on the agenda.

In addition, the base solution needs to take into account information neede=
d to be conveyed for a rate based control versus the default.

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 11:05 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Draft agenda for IETF#89 DIME meeting

Jouni,
Lionel,

I don't know if these items need to be agenda items for the meeting but I w=
ould like to get a sense from the working group for the direction we should=
 take on agent overload (see previous email).  I also propose that draft-do=
novan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt be made a working group item.

Steve
On 2/19/14 3:28 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:

Folks,



Slightly late as always..

http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime



We have reserved as much time as possible for the overload

topic.



Agenda comments/change requests asap, please.





- Jouni & Lionel



**





DIME WG IETF 89 Agenda



Chairs:

Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen at broadcom.com>

Lionel Morand@ <lionel.morand at orange.com>



Jabber room: dime at jabber.ietf.org (Please join)

THURSDAY, March 6, 2014

0900-1130  Morning Session I (150 mins)

Richmond/Chelsea/Tower



09:00 - 09:10, Preliminaries (10 minutes)

------------------------------------------

Audio/Video & Remote Presentation Debugging

Note Well

Note Takers

Jabber scribe

Agenda bash

Document Status



 o draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-21   -> IESG

 o draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req-01        -> About ready -> WGLC

 o draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03    -> in WG

 o draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01               -> in WG

 o draft-ietf-dime-pmip6-lr-18           -> AUTH48

 o draft-ietf-dime-rfc4005bis-14         -> AUTH48



Working group draft discussion (20 minutes)

-------------------------------------------



09:10 - 09:30 Diameter Group Signaling, Marco (20 minutes)

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/



Chartered individual draft discussion (15 minutes)

--------------------------------------------------



09:30 - 09:45 Diameter Congestion and Filter Attributes, Brent (15 minutes)

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-congestion-flow-attribute=
s/



Diamater Overload discussion (80 minutes)

-----------------------------------------



09:45 - 11:05 Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance, Jouni/Steve (80 minu=
tes)

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/





+ 15 mins buffer / break..



Wrap-up (10 minutes)

--------------------

11:20 - 11:30 Next Steps: WG Chairs & ADs (10 minutes)

WG Goals/Milestones status, next steps

_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">AT&amp;T supports the rat=
e-control be on the agenda.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In addition, the base sol=
ution needs to take into account information needed to be conveyed for a ra=
te based control versus the default.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 21, 2014 11:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Draft agenda for IETF#89 DIME meeting<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Jouni,<br>
Lionel,<br>
<br>
I don't know if these items need to be agenda items for the meeting but I w=
ould like to get a sense from the working group for the direction we should=
 take on agent overload (see previous email).&nbsp; I also propose that dra=
ft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt
 be made a working group item.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/19/14 3:28 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Folks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Slightly late as always..<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime">h=
ttp://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>We have reserved as much time as possible for the overload<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre>topic.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Agenda comments/change requests asap, please.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni &amp; Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>**<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>DIME WG IETF 89 Agenda&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Chairs:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Jouni Korhonen &lt;jouni.korhonen at broadcom.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel Morand@ &lt;lionel.morand at orange.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Jabber room: dime at jabber.ietf.org (Please join)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>THURSDAY, March 6, 2014<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>0900-1130&nbsp; Morning Session I (150 mins)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Richmond/Chelsea/Tower<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>09:00 - 09:10, Preliminaries (10 minutes)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Audio/Video &amp; Remote Presentation Debugging<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Note Well<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Note Takers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Jabber scribe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Agenda bash<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Document Status<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> o draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-21&nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt; IESG<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre> o draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req-01&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;-&gt; About ready -&gt; WGLC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> o draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt; in WG<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre> o draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt; in WG<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> o draft-ietf-dime-pmip6-lr-18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt; AUTH48<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> o draft-ietf-dime-rfc4005bis-14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; -&gt; AUTH48<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Working group draft discussion (20 minutes)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>09:10 - 09:30 Diameter Group Signaling, Marco (20 minutes)<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-sign=
aling/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/</=
a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Chartered individual draft discussion (15 minutes)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>--------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>09:30 - 09:45 Diameter Congestion and Filter Attributes, Brent (15 min=
utes)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-congestio=
n-flow-attributes/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-conge=
stion-flow-attributes/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Diamater Overload discussion (80 minutes)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>09:45 - 11:05 Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance, Jouni/Steve (80=
 minutes)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/">htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&#43; 15 mins buffer / break..<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Wrap-up (10 minutes)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>--------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>11:20 - 11:30 Next Steps: WG Chairs &amp; ADs (10 minutes) <o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>WG Goals/Milestones status, next steps <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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--_000_E42CCDDA6722744CB241677169E836560259C123MISOUT7MSGUSR9I_--


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References: <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209783FFD@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4120@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920978409B@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/ZKwjcElg-rSnVxJwGIFwHkxhLKU
Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Is the intent that it covers both the reporting nodes and reacting nodes, i=
.e. both Client and Server supporting DOIC must include the OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP if they support DOIC?

/Anders =20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 3:23 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provided a w=
rong rephrasing.
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.


-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

I do not agree
I think the conclusion was to say:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.

For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.

Ulrich =20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
=20
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
replace SHOULD by MUST

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
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Hi MCruz

The text  you propose to remove deals with the Seq number within  OC-Suppor=
ted features, because of duplication with another text, but this other text=
 text relates to the seq number handling within the OC-OLR AVP.
I think we can keep two texts, one for the seq number  within OC-Supported =
features  and another one for  the seq number  within OC-OLR AVP,. We will =
then see how the text  for seq number  within OC-Supported features evolves=
 with the #29  outputs.

Best regards

JJacques

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:42
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion

Steve,

Extracted text is duplicated now, this paragraph I referred is simply wrong=
.
But I agree duplicated text should be revised due to issue#29, but this is =
up to this ticket to provide the alternative text.

Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 16:33
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion

Maria Cruz,

I think we need to see the replacement text before concluding this ticket.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:



#53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?



Following text will be deleted:



    .........  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP

    is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-

    Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/

    recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either

    the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional

    replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.



 As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the same ch=
apter.





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DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The text &nbsp;you propos=
e to remove deals with the Seq number within &nbsp;OC-Supported features, b=
ecause of duplication with another text, but this other text text
 relates to the seq number handling within the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think we can keep two t=
exts, one for the seq number &nbsp;within OC-Supported features &nbsp;and a=
nother one for &nbsp;the seq number &nbsp;within OC-OLR AVP,. We will then =
see
 how the text &nbsp;for seq number &nbsp;within OC-Supported features evolv=
es with the #29 &nbsp;outputs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques &nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bou=
nces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:42<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Extracted text is duplica=
ted now, this paragraph I referred is simply wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But I agree duplicated te=
xt should be revised due to issue#29, but this is up to this ticket to prov=
ide the alternative text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 16:33<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
I think we need to see the replacement text before concluding this ticket.<=
br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/21/14 2:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Following text will be deleted:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .........&nbsp; If the OC-Supported-Features AVP<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is received for the first time for the reporting no=
de or the OC-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previous=
ly received/<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow win=
dow), then either<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional o=
r unintentional<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the sa=
me chapter.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "Askerup, Anders" <anders.askerup@hp.com>, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Hi Anders,

The clarification on the expected behavior of reporting node is covered in =
issue #30 :)

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Askerup, Anders
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:20
=C0=A0: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

Is the intent that it covers both the reporting nodes and reacting nodes, i=
.e. both Client and Server supporting DOIC must include the OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP if they support DOIC?

/Anders=20=20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 3:23 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provided a w=
rong rephrasing.
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.


-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

I do not agree
I think the conclusion was to say:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.

For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.

Ulrich=20=20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
=20
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
replace SHOULD by MUST

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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From nobody Fri Feb 21 09:30:38 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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+1

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:06
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

+1
On 2/21/14 3:23 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provided a w=
rong rephrasing.

My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:



#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests



 Now:

 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).



Proposal:

The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.





-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions



I do not agree

I think the conclusion was to say:

The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.



For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.



Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions



#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests



My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:



 Now:

 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).



Proposal:

replace SHOULD by MUST



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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<div>
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0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:06<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - con=
clusions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#43;1<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/21/14 3:23 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provide=
d a wrong rephrasing.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Now:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter&=
nbsp; message a DOIC&nbsp; supporting node sends (and intends to use for DO=
IC purposes).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter req=
uest message a DOIC supporting node sends.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.o=
rg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusio=
ns<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not agree<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I think the conclusion was to say:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter req=
uest message a DOIC supporting node sends.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Now:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter&=
nbsp; message a DOIC&nbsp; supporting node sends (and intends to use for DO=
IC purposes).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>replace SHOULD by MUST<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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+1 (including Steve comment)

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change belo=
w.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history



Following agreement is reached:



 Now (chapter 4.7):

    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.



 Proposal:

   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.          =
        <----





 Now (chapter 5.5.2):

      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to

      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the

      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the

      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value

      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true

      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up

      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every

      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application

      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100



  Proposal:

 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce

 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the

 reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          <---

 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       =
<---

 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to

 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th

 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try

 to recover from it.
SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"






_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




___________________________________________________________________________=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#43;1 (including Steve c=
omment)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
I support your suggested changes.&nbsp; I have one further suggested change=
 below.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Following agreement is reached:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Now (chapter 4.7):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is =
type of Unsigned32<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and describes the percentage of the traffic that th=
e sender is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise =
would have sent.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type o=
f Unsigned32&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and describes the percentage of the traffic that the=
 sender is&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise w=
ould send.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;Now (chapter 5.5.2):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates that the reporting node urges=
 the reacting node to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduce its traffic by a given percentag=
e.&nbsp; For example if the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node has been sending 100 pack=
ets per second to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reporting node, then a reception of OC-=
Reduction-Percentage value<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of 10 would mean that from now on the r=
eacting node MUST only send<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90 packets per second.&nbsp; How the re=
acting node achieves the &quot;true<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduction&quot; transactions leading to=
 the sent request messages is up<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the implementation.&nbsp; The reacti=
ng node MAY simply drop every<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10th packet from its output queue and l=
et the generic application<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logic try to recover from it.0 &lt; val=
ue &lt; 100<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce <=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre> reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of =
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the &quot;t=
rue&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reduction&quot; transactions leading to the sent request messages is =
up to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=
 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;packet from its output queue and let the generic application log=
ic try <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;to recover from it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SRD&gt; Replace &quot;from now on&quot; in the above=
 with &quot;for the period that the overload report is active&quot;<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
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To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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My understanding as well

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 12:30 PM
To: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

+1

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:06
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

+1
On 2/21/14 3:23 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provided a w=
rong rephrasing.

My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:



#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests



 Now:

 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).



Proposal:

The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.





-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions



I do not agree

I think the conclusion was to say:

The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.



For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.



Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions



#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests



My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:



 Now:

 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).



Proposal:

replace SHOULD by MUST



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My understanding as well<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>lionel.morand@orange.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 21, 2014 12:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclus=
ions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#43;1</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:06<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - con=
clusions</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&#43;1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">On 2/21/14 3:23 AM, Maria Cruz Bar=
tolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as =
well but I provided a wrong rephrasing.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">My understanding is the following conclusions is rea=
ched:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> Now:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included in=
to every Diameter&nbsp; message a DOIC&nbsp; supporting node sends (and int=
ends to use for DOIC purposes).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into =
every Diameter request message a DOIC supporting node sends.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@iet=
f.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in re=
quests - conclusions<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">I do not agree<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">I think the conclusion was to say:<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into =
every Diameter request message a DOIC supporting node sends.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages ref=
er to issue #30.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Ulrich&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org"=
>mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</=
a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in reques=
ts - conclusions<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">My understanding is the following conclusions is rea=
ched:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> Now:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included in=
to every Diameter&nbsp; message a DOIC&nbsp; supporting node sends (and int=
ends to use for DOIC purposes).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">replace SHOULD by MUST<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">_______________________________________________<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dim=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">_______________________________________________<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dim=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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From: "Askerup, Anders" <anders.askerup@hp.com>
To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "Maria Cruz Bartolome" <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Lionel,

but issue #30 is about the Answer message isn't? My question is if a Server=
 sending a Request message must it include the OC-Supported-Features AVP or=
 not?

/Anders

-----Original Message-----
From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 11:30 AM
To: Askerup, Anders; Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

Hi Anders,

The clarification on the expected behavior of reporting node is covered in =
issue #30 :)

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Askerup, Anders
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:20
=C0=A0: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

Is the intent that it covers both the reporting nodes and reacting nodes, i=
.e. both Client and Server supporting DOIC must include the OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP if they support DOIC?

/Anders =20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 3:23 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provided a w=
rong rephrasing.
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.


-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

I do not agree
I think the conclusion was to say:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.

For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.

Ulrich =20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
=20
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
replace SHOULD by MUST

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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Hi MCruz, Steve

I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sur=
e.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on =
  "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to wh=
ich it refers.

During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic t=
he reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received th=
e OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and fro=
m the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  whi=
ch I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which =
I also agree.

As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may unders=
tand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think=
 to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33
=C0 : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

+1 (including Steve comment)

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change belo=
w.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history



Following agreement is reached:



 Now (chapter 4.7):

    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.



 Proposal:

   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.          =
        <----





 Now (chapter 5.5.2):

      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to

      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the

      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the

      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value

      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true

      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up

      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every

      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application

      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100



  Proposal:

 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce

 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the

 reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          <---

 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       =
<---

 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to

 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th

 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try

 to recover from it.
SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"







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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



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Thank you.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz, Steve<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agree on the &#822=
0;would send &#8221; instead of the &#8220;would have sent&#8221; &nbsp;for=
 sure. &nbsp;But I have &nbsp;a small concern/ clarification &nbsp;about th=
e Steve comment on &nbsp;&nbsp;&#8220;</span>for
 the period that the overload report is active&#8221; <span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">
and the example to which it refers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">During the time the OLR i=
s active, which may be rather long, &nbsp;the traffic the reacting node wou=
ld send may be 100 packet &nbsp;when it has just received the OLR.
 A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and from the =
OLR definition, &nbsp;&nbsp;it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on&=
nbsp; which I agree. This is in line &nbsp;with the every 10th packet dropp=
ing &nbsp;on which I also agree.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As the text &nbsp;&nbsp;w=
ould &nbsp;be written with the Steve modification , we may understand it is=
 &nbsp;80 Packet during all the time &nbsp;the OLR is active. Not yet think=
 to an
 alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
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family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bou=
nces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> lionel.morand@orange.com<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#43;1 (inclu=
ding Steve comment)</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion</span><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"FR">Mar=
ia Cruz,<br>
<br>
I support your suggested changes.&nbsp; I have one further suggested change=
 below.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bar=
tolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous h=
istory<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Following agreement is reached:<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> Now (chapter 4.7):<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (=
AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and describes the percentage of t=
he traffic that the sender is<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requested to reduce, compared to =
what it otherwise would have sent.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;Proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP co=
de TBD8) is type of Unsigned32&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and describes the percentage of th=
e traffic that the sender is&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;requested to reduce, compared to w=
hat it otherwise would send.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;----<o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;Now (chapter 5.5.2):<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates that the re=
porting node urges the reacting node to<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduce its traffic by=
 a given percentage.&nbsp; For example if the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node has bee=
n sending 100 packets per second to the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reporting node, then =
a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of 10 would mean that=
 from now on the reacting node MUST only send<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90 packets per second=
.&nbsp; How the reacting node achieves the &quot;true<o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduction&quot; trans=
actions leading to the sent request messages is up<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the implementation=
.&nbsp; The reacting node MAY simply drop every<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10th packet from its =
output queue and let the generic application<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logic try to recover =
from it.0 &lt; value &lt; 100<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp; Proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reactin=
g node to reduce <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;its traffic by a given percentage. For example=
 if the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Pe=
rcentage value of <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;10 would mean that from now on the reacting no=
de MUST only send<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node ac=
hieves the &quot;true&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> reduction&quot; transactions leading to the sent re=
quest messages is up to <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;the implementation. The reacting node MAY simp=
ly drop every 10th <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;packet from its output queue and let the gener=
ic application logic try <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;to recover from it.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">SRD&gt; Replace &quot;from now on&=
quot; in the above with &quot;for the period that the overload report is ac=
tive&quot;<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">_______________________________________________<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dim=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p=
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<pre><span lang=3D"FR">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o=
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<pre><span lang=3D"FR">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Draft agenda for IETF#89 DIME meeting
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I also support addressing rate-control, and including the rate-related 
parameters in the base solution.

Janet

This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in 
delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to 
bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit 
written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of 
e-mail for such purpose.



From:   "DOLLY, MARTIN C" <md3135@att.com>
To:     Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" 
<dime@ietf.org>
Date:   02/21/2014 12:21 PM
Subject:        Re: [Dime] Draft agenda for IETF#89 DIME meeting
Sent by:        "DiME" <dime-bounces@ietf.org>



AT&T supports the rate-control be on the agenda.
 
In addition, the base solution needs to take into account information 
needed to be conveyed for a rate based control versus the default.
 
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 11:05 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Draft agenda for IETF#89 DIME meeting
 
Jouni,
Lionel,

I don't know if these items need to be agenda items for the meeting but I 
would like to get a sense from the working group for the direction we 
should take on agent overload (see previous email).  I also propose that 
draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt be made a working group item.

Steve
On 2/19/14 3:28 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
Folks,
 
Slightly late as always..
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime
 
We have reserved as much time as possible for the overload
topic.
 
Agenda comments/change requests asap, please.
 
 
- Jouni & Lionel
 
**
 
 
DIME WG IETF 89 Agenda 
 
Chairs:
Jouni Korhonen <jouni.korhonen at broadcom.com>
Lionel Morand@ <lionel.morand at orange.com>
 
Jabber room: dime at jabber.ietf.org (Please join)
THURSDAY, March 6, 2014
0900-1130  Morning Session I (150 mins)
Richmond/Chelsea/Tower
 
09:00 - 09:10, Preliminaries (10 minutes)
------------------------------------------
Audio/Video & Remote Presentation Debugging
Note Well
Note Takers
Jabber scribe
Agenda bash
Document Status
 
 o draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-21   -> IESG
 o draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req-01        -> About ready -> WGLC
 o draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03    -> in WG
 o draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01               -> in WG
 o draft-ietf-dime-pmip6-lr-18           -> AUTH48
 o draft-ietf-dime-rfc4005bis-14         -> AUTH48
 
Working group draft discussion (20 minutes)
-------------------------------------------
 
09:10 - 09:30 Diameter Group Signaling, Marco (20 minutes)
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/
 
Chartered individual draft discussion (15 minutes)
--------------------------------------------------
 
09:30 - 09:45 Diameter Congestion and Filter Attributes, Brent (15 
minutes)
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-congestion-flow-attributes/
 
Diamater Overload discussion (80 minutes)
-----------------------------------------
 
09:45 - 11:05 Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance, Jouni/Steve (80 
minutes)
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/
 
 
+ 15 mins buffer / break..
 
Wrap-up (10 minutes)
--------------------
11:20 - 11:30 Next Steps: WG Chairs & ADs (10 minutes) 
WG Goals/Milestones status, next steps 
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
 
 _______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<font size=2 face="sans-serif">I also support addressing rate-control,
and including the rate-related parameters in the base solution.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Janet<br>
<br>
This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please
delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in
delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to
bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written
agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail
for such purpose.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&quot;DOLLY, MARTIN
C&quot; &lt;md3135@att.com&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Steve Donovan &lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;,
&quot;dime@ietf.org&quot; &lt;dime@ietf.org&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">02/21/2014 12:21 PM</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [Dime] Draft
agenda for IETF#89 DIME meeting</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Sent by: &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&quot;DiME&quot;
&lt;dime-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</font>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">AT&amp;T supports the rate-control
be on the agenda.</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">In addition, the base solution
needs to take into account information needed to be conveyed for a rate
based control versus the default.</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> DiME [</font><a href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org"><font size=2 face="Tahoma">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<b><br>
Sent:</b> Friday, February 21, 2014 11:05 AM<b><br>
To:</b> dime@ietf.org<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Draft agenda for IETF#89 DIME meeting</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Jouni,<br>
Lionel,<br>
<br>
I don't know if these items need to be agenda items for the meeting but
I would like to get a sense from the working group for the direction we
should take on agent overload (see previous email). &nbsp;I also propose
that draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00.txt be made a working group
item.<br>
<br>
Steve</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">On 2/19/14 3:28 AM, Jouni Korhonen
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Folks,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Slightly late as always..</font>
<br><a href="http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime"><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><u>http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-dime</u></font></a>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">We have reserved as much time as possible
for the overload</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">topic.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Agenda comments/change requests asap,
please.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">- Jouni &amp; Lionel</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">**</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">DIME WG IETF 89 Agenda &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Chairs:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Jouni Korhonen &lt;jouni.korhonen at
broadcom.com&gt;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Lionel Morand@ &lt;lionel.morand at
orange.com&gt;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Jabber room: dime at jabber.ietf.org
(Please join)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">THURSDAY, March 6, 2014</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">0900-1130 &nbsp;Morning Session I (150
mins)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Richmond/Chelsea/Tower</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">09:00 - 09:10, Preliminaries (10 minutes)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">------------------------------------------</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Audio/Video &amp; Remote Presentation
Debugging</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Note Well</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Note Takers</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Jabber scribe</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Agenda bash</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Document Status</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;o draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide-21
&nbsp; -&gt; IESG</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;o draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req-01
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;-&gt; About ready -&gt; WGLC</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;o draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling-03
&nbsp; &nbsp;-&gt; in WG</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;o draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01 &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&gt; in WG</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;o draft-ietf-dime-pmip6-lr-18
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&gt; AUTH48</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;o draft-ietf-dime-rfc4005bis-14
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&gt; AUTH48</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Working group draft discussion (20
minutes)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">-------------------------------------------</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">09:10 - 09:30 Diameter Group Signaling,
Marco (20 minutes)</font>
<br><a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/"><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><u>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-group-signaling/</u></font></a>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Chartered individual draft discussion
(15 minutes)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">--------------------------------------------------</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">09:30 - 09:45 Diameter Congestion and
Filter Attributes, Brent (15 minutes)</font>
<br><a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-congestion-flow-attributes/"><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><u>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertz-dime-congestion-flow-attributes/</u></font></a>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Diamater Overload discussion (80 minutes)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">-----------------------------------------</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">09:45 - 11:05 Diameter Overload Indication
Conveyance, Jouni/Steve (80 minutes)</font>
<br><a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/"><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><u>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-ovli/</u></font></a>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">+ 15 mins buffer / break..</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Wrap-up (10 minutes)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">--------------------</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">11:20 - 11:30 Next Steps: WG Chairs
&amp; ADs (10 minutes) </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">WG Goals/Milestones status, next steps
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">_______________________________________________</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">DiME mailing list</font>
<br><a href=mailto:DiME@ietf.org><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><u>DiME@ietf.org</u></font></a>
<br><a href=https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><u>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</u></font></a>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font><tt><font size=2>_______________________________________________<br>
DiME mailing list<br>
DiME@ietf.org<br>
</font></tt><a href=https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime><tt><font size=2>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
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<br>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 18:27:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Hi JJ,

I think that the condition here is "if the reacting node would send 100 pac=
kets, 90 is sent" and this is true as long as the OLR is valid, right?

Or did I miss something in your question?

Lionel


De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 19:11
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous his=
tory - conclusion

Hi MCruz, Steve
=A0
I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent" =A0for s=
ure. =A0But I have =A0a small concern/ clarification =A0about the Steve com=
ment on =A0=A0"for the period that the overload report is active" and the e=
xample to which it refers.
=A0
During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long, =A0the traffic=
 the reacting node would send may be 100 packet =A0when it has just receive=
d the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and=
 from the OLR definition, =A0=A0it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets,=
 on=A0 which I agree. This is in line =A0with the every 10th packet droppin=
g =A0on which I also agree.=20
=A0=A0
As the text =A0=A0would =A0be written with the Steve modification , we may =
understand it is =A080 Packet during all the time =A0the OLR is active. Not=
 yet think to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my re=
mark.
=A0
JJacques=20
=A0
=A0
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33
=C0=A0: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous his=
tory - conclusion
=A0
+1 (including Steve comment)
=A0
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous his=
tory - conclusion
=A0
Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.=A0 I have one further suggested change be=
low.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
=20
Following agreement is reached:
=A0
 Now (chapter 4.7):
=A0=A0=A0 The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsign=
ed32
=A0=A0=A0 and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
=A0=A0=A0 requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sen=
t.
=20
=A0Proposal:
=A0=A0 The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned3=
2=A0=20
=A0=A0=A0and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is=A0=
=20
=A0=A0=A0requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <----
=20
=A0
=A0Now (chapter 5.5.2):
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reduce its traffic by a given percentage.=A0 For example if=
 the
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage=
 value
 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST on=
ly send
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 90 packets per second.=A0 How the reacting node achieves th=
e "true
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request message=
s is up
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 to the implementation.=A0 The reacting node MAY simply drop=
 every
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 10th packet from its output queue and let the generic appli=
cation
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
=A0
=A0 Proposal:
 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce=20
=A0its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
 reacting node would send 100 packets to the=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <---
 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20
=A010 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0 <---
 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to=20
=A0the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=20
=A0packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try=
=20
=A0to recover from it.
SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"



=A0
=A0
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DiME mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
=A0
=A0
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______________________________________________
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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Hi Lionel

The proposed text would be now: =20
"For example if the  reacting node would send 100 packets to the reporting =
node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 10 would mean th=
at, for the period that the overload report is active on, the reacting node=
 MUST only send  90 packets instead of 100"

I do not feel comfortable with this wording. The reacting node does not kno=
w the period for which  the overload report is active, as it may at any tim=
e receive  another OLR overriding the previous one. The new reading means 9=
0 packets for a period we don't k now.  The existing text was mentioning pa=
cket/seconds, that Mcruz wanted also to avoid as it could   have been under=
stood that 10 packet are removed for each period of one second, which is no=
t fully accurate,  if I remember well.

Best regards

JJacques=20


=20
-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 19:28
=C0=A0: TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: RE: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous his=
tory - conclusion

Hi JJ,

I think that the condition here is "if the reacting node would send 100 pac=
kets, 90 is sent" and this is true as long as the OLR is valid, right?

Or did I miss something in your question?

Lionel


De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQ=
UES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 19:11 =C0=A0: di=
me@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on =
previous history - conclusion

Hi MCruz, Steve
=A0
I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent" =A0for s=
ure. =A0But I have =A0a small concern/ clarification =A0about the Steve com=
ment on =A0=A0"for the period that the overload report is active" and the e=
xample to which it refers.
=A0
During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long, =A0the traffic=
 the reacting node would send may be 100 packet =A0when it has just receive=
d the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and=
 from the OLR definition, =A0=A0it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets,=
 on=A0 which I agree. This is in line =A0with the every 10th packet droppin=
g =A0on which I also agree.=20
=A0=A0
As the text =A0=A0would =A0be written with the Steve modification , we may =
understand it is =A080 Packet during all the time =A0the OLR is active. Not=
 yet think to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my re=
mark.
=A0
JJacques=20
=A0
=A0
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33 =C0=A0: Steve Donovan;=
 dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based =
on previous history - conclusion
=A0
+1 (including Steve comment)
=A0
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan Envo=
y=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=A0: R=
e: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conc=
lusion
=A0
Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.=A0 I have one further suggested change be=
low.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
=20
Following agreement is reached:
=A0
 Now (chapter 4.7):
=A0=A0=A0 The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsign=
ed32
=A0=A0=A0 and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
=A0=A0=A0 requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sen=
t.
=20
=A0Proposal:
=A0=A0 The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned3=
2
=A0=A0=A0and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
=A0=A0=A0requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <----
=20
=A0
=A0Now (chapter 5.5.2):
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node t=
o
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reduce its traffic by a given percentage.=A0 For example if=
 the
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to th=
e
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage=
 value
 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST on=
ly send
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 90 packets per second.=A0 How the reacting node achieves th=
e "true
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request message=
s is up
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 to the implementation.=A0 The reacting node MAY simply drop=
 every
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 10th packet from its output queue and let the generic appli=
cation
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
=A0
=A0 Proposal:
 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce
=A0its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the  reacting node wou=
ld send 100 packets to the=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <---  reporting node, then a reception of OC-Re=
duction-Percentage value of
=A010 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send  90 pack=
ets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 <---  reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is u=
p to
=A0the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th
=A0packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try
=A0to recover from it.
SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"



=A0
=A0
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
=A0
=A0
___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________
=A0
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou =
copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez=
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=A0
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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Le=
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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From nobody Fri Feb 21 11:14:10 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
Thread-Index: Ac8u4I7lZ6EisnBRQGeKN2pRy2ep6wAMcrsAAAQQ/wAAArURAAABKP8wAACF6rAAATkwpg==
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Valid means till the validity duration expires or a fresh OLR is received. =
So the reacting node will behave according to the latest OLR received.

So no pb for me. But feel free to propose a new text if needed.

Lionel

Envoy=E9 depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange

"TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent=
.com> a =E9crit :


Hi Lionel

The proposed text would be now:
"For example if the  reacting node would send 100 packets to the reporting =
node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 10 would mean th=
at, for the period that the overload report is active on, the reacting node=
 MUST only send  90 packets instead of 100"

I do not feel comfortable with this wording. The reacting node does not kno=
w the period for which  the overload report is active, as it may at any tim=
e receive  another OLR overriding the previous one. The new reading means 9=
0 packets for a period we don't k now.  The existing text was mentioning pa=
cket/seconds, that Mcruz wanted also to avoid as it could   have been under=
stood that 10 packet are removed for each period of one second, which is no=
t fully accurate,  if I remember well.

Best regards

JJacques



-----Message d'origine-----
De : lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 19:28
=C0 : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
Objet : RE: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

Hi JJ,

I think that the condition here is "if the reacting node would send 100 pac=
kets, 90 is sent" and this is true as long as the OLR is valid, right?

Or did I miss something in your question?

Lionel


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 19:11 =C0 : dime@iet=
f.org Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous=
 history - conclusion

Hi MCruz, Steve

I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sur=
e.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on =
  "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to wh=
ich it refers.

During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic t=
he reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received th=
e OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and fro=
m the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  whi=
ch I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which =
I also agree.

As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may unders=
tand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think=
 to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange=
.com Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33 =C0 : Steve Donovan; dime@=
ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previ=
ous history - conclusion

+1 (including Steve comment)

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan Envoy=
=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37 =C0 : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dim=
e] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion

Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change belo=
w.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history

Following agreement is reached:

 Now (chapter 4.7):
    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.

 Proposal:
   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.          =
        <----


 Now (chapter 5.5.2):
      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100

  Proposal:
 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce
 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the  reacting node would=
 send 100 packets to the                          <---  reporting node, the=
n a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of
 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send  90 packet=
s instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       <---  redu=
ction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to
 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th
 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try
 to recover from it.
SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"





_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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Thank you.

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions
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Hi Anders

My understanding is that a reacting node puts OC-Supported-feature AVP in r=
equests and reporting node put it in answers.

Then Overload control may also be used in the other way where the role of r=
eacting and reporting node is exchanged. For example HSS can be a reporting=
 node (as we want to address the HSS overload), MME being reacting. We can =
also have overload control in the other way, where MME is a reporting node =
(to address MME overload) towards HSS that is then the reacting node .
The two ways can be used simultaneously.
Furthermore, each way can use its own set of features/capabilities.

Best regards

JJacques=20

 =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Askerup, Anders
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:49
=C0=A0: lionel.morand@orange.com; Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

Lionel,

but issue #30 is about the Answer message isn't? My question is if a Server=
 sending a Request message must it include the OC-Supported-Features AVP or=
 not?

/Anders

-----Original Message-----
From: lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 11:30 AM
To: Askerup, Anders; Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

Hi Anders,

The clarification on the expected behavior of reporting node is covered in =
issue #30 :)

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Askerup, Anders En=
voy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:20 =C0=A0: Maria Cruz Bartolome; d=
ime@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - =
conclusions

Is the intent that it covers both the reporting nodes and reacting nodes, i=
.e. both Client and Server supporting DOIC must include the OC-Supported-Fe=
atures AVP if they support DOIC?

/Anders =20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 3:23 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

Yes, sorry about this, this was my understanding as well but I provided a w=
rong rephrasing.
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.


-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 10:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

I do not agree
I think the conclusion was to say:
The OC-Supported-Features AVP MUST be included into every Diameter request =
message a DOIC supporting node sends.

For OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages refer to issue #30.

Ulrich =20

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:35 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] #51: OC-Supported-Features in requests - conclusions

#51: OC-Supported-Features in requests
=20
My understanding is the following conclusions is reached:

 Now:
 The OC-Supported-Features AVP SHOULD be included into every Diameter  mess=
age a DOIC  supporting node sends (and intends to use for DOIC purposes).
=20
Proposal:
replace SHOULD by MUST

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

___________________________________________________________________________=
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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On Feb 21, 2014, at 9:52 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent =
even for the case where the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate overload reports.  To this end I suggest we add an =
indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the =
Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP =
would mean that the report applies to all clients.  Presence of the AVP =
would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

I support this approach. And of course, being me, I would like that AVP =
to contain the Diameter Identity of the client in question.

But I wonder--should this be limited to clients? Should it be possible =
for the server to bind an OLR to a particular _agent_? That is, some =
node on the message path that is not the Origin-Host? For adjacent =
agents, this is easy--the server only sends the OLR to that agent. But =
that won't work for non-adjacent agents.=


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Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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+1 on Lionel's point.

Steve

On 2/21/14 1:13 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> Valid means till the validity duration expires or a fresh OLR is received. So the reacting node will behave according to the latest OLR received.
>
> So no pb for me. But feel free to propose a new text if needed.
>
> Lionel
>
> Envoyé depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange
>
> "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> a écrit :
>
>
> Hi Lionel
>
> The proposed text would be now:
> "For example if the  reacting node would send 100 packets to the reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 10 would mean that, for the period that the overload report is active on, the reacting node MUST only send  90 packets instead of 100"
>
> I do not feel comfortable with this wording. The reacting node does not know the period for which  the overload report is active, as it may at any time receive  another OLR overriding the previous one. The new reading means 90 packets for a period we don't k now.  The existing text was mentioning packet/seconds, that Mcruz wanted also to avoid as it could   have been understood that 10 packet are removed for each period of one second, which is not fully accurate,  if I remember well.
>
> Best regards
>
> JJacques
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : lionel.morand@orange.com [mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com]
> Envoyé : vendredi 21 février 2014 19:28
> À : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
> Objet : RE: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
>
> Hi JJ,
>
> I think that the condition here is "if the reacting node would send 100 packets, 90 is sent" and this is true as long as the OLR is valid, right?
>
> Or did I miss something in your question?
>
> Lionel
>
>
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoyé : vendredi 21 février 2014 19:11 À : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
>
> Hi MCruz, Steve
>
> I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sure.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on   "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to which it refers.
>
> During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic the reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and from the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  which I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which I also agree.
>
> As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may understand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.
>
> JJacques
>
>
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange.com Envoyé : vendredi 21 février 2014 18:33 À : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
>
> +1 (including Steve comment)
>
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan Envoyé : vendredi 21 février 2014 16:37 À : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
>
> Maria Cruz,
>
> I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change below.
>
> Steve
> On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>
> Following agreement is reached:
>
>  Now (chapter 4.7):
>     The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
>     and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>     requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
>
>  Proposal:
>    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
>    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.                  <----
>
>
>  Now (chapter 5.5.2):
>       Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
>       reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
>       reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
>       reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
>       of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>       90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
>       reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
>       to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
>       10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
>       logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
>
>   Proposal:
>  Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce
>  its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the  reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          <---  reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of
>  10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send  90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       <---  reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to
>  the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th
>  packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try
>  to recover from it.
> SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overload report is active"
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
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> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
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>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">+1 on Lionel's point. <br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/21/14 1:13 PM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:1789_1393010039_5307A577_1789_6240_1_dns3ssreic6i89k4lpnolngt.1393009910150@email.android.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Valid means till the validity duration expires or a fresh OLR is received. So the reacting node will behave according to the latest OLR received.

So no pb for me. But feel free to propose a new text if needed.

Lionel

Envoy&eacute; depuis mon Sony Xperia SP d'Orange

"TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com">&lt;jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;</a> a &eacute;crit :


Hi Lionel

The proposed text would be now:
"For example if the  reacting node would send 100 packets to the reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 10 would mean that, for the period that the overload report is active on, the reacting node MUST only send  90 packets instead of 100"

I do not feel comfortable with this wording. The reacting node does not know the period for which  the overload report is active, as it may at any time receive  another OLR overriding the previous one. The new reading means 90 packets for a period we don't k now.  The existing text was mentioning packet/seconds, that Mcruz wanted also to avoid as it could   have been understood that 10 packet are removed for each period of one second, which is not fully accurate,  if I remember well.

Best regards

JJacques



-----Message d'origine-----
De : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com</a>]
Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 21 f&eacute;vrier 2014 19:28
&Agrave; : TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet : RE: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion

Hi JJ,

I think that the condition here is "if the reacting node would send 100 packets, 90 is sent" and this is true as long as the OLR is valid, right?

Or did I miss something in your question?

Lionel


De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 21 f&eacute;vrier 2014 19:11 &Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion

Hi MCruz, Steve

I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sure.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on   "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to which it refers.

During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic the reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and from the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  which I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which I also agree.

As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may understand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.

JJacques


De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 21 f&eacute;vrier 2014 18:33 &Agrave; : Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion

+1 (including Steve comment)

De : DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan Envoy&eacute; : vendredi 21 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:37 &Agrave; : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion

Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change below.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history

Following agreement is reached:

 Now (chapter 4.7):
    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.

 Proposal:
   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.                  &lt;----


 Now (chapter 5.5.2):
      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
      logic try to recover from it.0 &lt; value &lt; 100

  Proposal:
 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce
 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the  reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          &lt;---  reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of
 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send  90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       &lt;---  reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to
 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th
 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try
 to recover from it.
SRD&gt; Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overload report is active"





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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

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Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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I share JJacques concern. Replacing "from now on" with "for the period that=
 the overload report is active"
is misleading. May be its better to simply remove "from now on".

Ulrich





From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion

Hi MCruz, Steve

I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sur=
e.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on =
  "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to wh=
ich it refers.

During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic t=
he reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received th=
e OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and fro=
m the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  whi=
ch I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which =
I also agree.

As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may unders=
tand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think=
 to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange=
.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33
=C0 : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

+1 (including Steve comment)

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change belo=
w.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history



Following agreement is reached:



 Now (chapter 4.7):

    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.



 Proposal:

   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.          =
        <----





 Now (chapter 5.5.2):

      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to

      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the

      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the

      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value

      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true

      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up

      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every

      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application

      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100



  Proposal:

 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce

 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the

 reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          <---

 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       =
<---

 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to

 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th

 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try

 to recover from it.
SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"








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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

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acques concern. Replacing
</span><span lang=3D"FR">&quot;from now on&quot; with &quot;for the period =
that the overload report is active&quot;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">is mislead=
ing. May be its better to simply remove &#8220;from now on&#8221;.<o:p></o:=
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family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previo=
us history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz, =
Steve</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agr=
ee on the &#8220;would send &#8221; instead of the &#8220;would have sent&#=
8221; &nbsp;for sure. &nbsp;But I have &nbsp;a small concern/ clarification=
 &nbsp;about the Steve comment
 on &nbsp;&nbsp;&#8220;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">for the period that the =
overload report is active&#8221;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">and the example to which i=
t refers.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">During the=
 time the OLR is active, which may be rather long, &nbsp;the traffic the re=
acting node would send may be 100 packet &nbsp;when it has just received
 the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and =
from the OLR definition, &nbsp;&nbsp;it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) pac=
kets, on&nbsp; which I agree. This is in line &nbsp;with the every 10th pac=
ket dropping &nbsp;on which I also agree.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As the tex=
t &nbsp;&nbsp;would &nbsp;be written with the Steve modification , we may u=
nderstand it is &nbsp;80 Packet during all the time &nbsp;the OLR is active=
. Not yet
 think to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark=
.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.mor=
and@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#43;1 (inclu=
ding Steve comment)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"FR">Mar=
ia Cruz,<br>
<br>
I support your suggested changes.&nbsp; I have one further suggested change=
 below.<br>
<br>
Steve</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bar=
tolome wrote:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous h=
istory</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Following agreement is reached:</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> Now (chapter 4.7):</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (=
AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and describes the percentage of t=
he traffic that the sender is</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requested to reduce, compared to =
what it otherwise would have sent.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;Proposal:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP co=
de TBD8) is type of Unsigned32&nbsp; </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and describes the percentage of th=
e traffic that the sender is&nbsp; </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;requested to reduce, compared to w=
hat it otherwise would send.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;----</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;Now (chapter 5.5.2):</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates that the re=
porting node urges the reacting node to</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduce its traffic by=
 a given percentage.&nbsp; For example if the</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node has bee=
n sending 100 packets per second to the</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reporting node, then =
a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of 10 would mean that=
 from now on the reacting node MUST only send</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90 packets per second=
.&nbsp; How the reacting node achieves the &quot;true</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduction&quot; trans=
actions leading to the sent request messages is up</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the implementation=
.&nbsp; The reacting node MAY simply drop every</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10th packet from its =
output queue and let the generic application</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logic try to recover =
from it.0 &lt; value &lt; 100</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp; Proposal:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reactin=
g node to reduce </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;its traffic by a given percentage. For example=
 if the</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Pe=
rcentage value of </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;10 would mean that from now on the reacting no=
de MUST only send</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node ac=
hieves the &quot;true&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> reduction&quot; transactions leading to the sent re=
quest messages is up to </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;the implementation. The reacting node MAY simp=
ly drop every 10th </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;packet from its output queue and let the gener=
ic application logic try </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;to recover from it.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">SRD&gt; Replace &quot;from now on&=
quot; in the above with &quot;for the period that the overload report is ac=
tive&quot;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">_______________________________________________</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dim=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Thank you.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hi

When a reporting node puts an OC-OLR an answer, this OLR is to be sent to t=
he origin Host of the corresponding request (eg  client 1). For eg a client=
 2, the reporting node  will put an OC-OLR in  an answer going to client 2 =
. I do not see why an OC-OLR that was put  in answer to client  1 will be p=
ut  later in the path  in an answer to client 2 or even  to answers to all =
clients and to distinguish these behaviors by extra indicators,  these are =
new things not needed in the baseline .

If a DA is acting on behalf of client 1, it will receive an OLR in  an answ=
er towards client 1 and will apply the traffic reduction to the traffic com=
ing from client 1 .  The same if it is acting on behalf of client 2. So no =
difference for the reporting node which is an objective.
Other approaches are new things that I do not yet  understand the need  and=
 that are  not part of the baseline.

So I remain in line with the  conclusions (and his hereafter mail) that  Ul=
rich  proposed and I think  supported  by several  of us.

Best regards

Jacques



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:53
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.  To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking th=
e reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absenc=
e of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all=
 clients.  Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the O=
rigin-Host.

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client

Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different=
 amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35

3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>

 If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is t=
he reacting node from the server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>

 But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a parti=
cular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When a reporting node put=
s an OC-OLR an answer, this OLR is to be sent to the origin Host of the cor=
responding request (eg&nbsp; client 1). For eg a client 2, the
 reporting node &nbsp;will put an OC-OLR in &nbsp;an answer going to client=
 2 . I do not see why an OC-OLR that was put &nbsp;in answer to client &nbs=
p;1 will be put &nbsp;later in the path &nbsp;in an answer to client 2 or e=
ven &nbsp;to answers to all clients and to distinguish these behaviors
 by extra indicators, &nbsp;these are new things not needed in the baseline=
 .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If a DA is acting on beha=
lf of client 1, it will receive an OLR in &nbsp;an answer towards client 1 =
and will apply the traffic reduction to the traffic coming from
 client 1 . &nbsp;The same if it is acting on behalf of client 2. So no dif=
ference for the reporting node which is an objective.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Other approaches are new =
things that I do not yet &nbsp;understand the need &nbsp;and that are &nbsp=
;not part of the baseline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So I remain in line with =
the &nbsp;conclusions (and his hereafter mail) that &nbsp;Ulrich &nbsp;prop=
osed and I think &nbsp;supported &nbsp;by several &nbsp;of us.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bou=
nces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:53<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
<br>
I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp=
; <br>
<br>
First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This,=
 I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; =
I suggest we capture in the agent behavior
 section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first suppor=
ting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non=
-supporting client.&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the=
 reacting node for the non-supporting
 client.<br>
<br>
We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't
 seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case=
 with other algorithms.<br>
<br>
My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.&nbsp; To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marki=
ng the reports that are specific to just
 the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of the &quot;single-client-o=
nly&quot; AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.&nbsp; Pres=
ence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Li=
onel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Now you seem to address two points:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying te=
xt for 5.5. as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of th=
e reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also=
 the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node=
 (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role =
of a reacting node towards the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting diff=
erent amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 opt=
ions:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1. ignore the 3GPP requirement<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>So far I understood that people favoured option 3.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>See also inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@=
nostrum.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a href=
=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>#35: additional report types are proposed<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However=
, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a =
client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to th=
e origin-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client=
.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre> If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client,=
 is the reacting node from the server's perspective.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does n=
ot know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role=
 of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a =
particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support=
 at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For=
 DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing t=
raffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes =
from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't =
have that option for non-DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From nobody Mon Feb 24 02:41:41 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 10:41:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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I agree.
Agent should not assume that the received OLR is valid for all the clients =
below it. It does not preclude an agent to do so when it is know that for a=
n application all the received are independent of the clients. But this is =
something not required as per the base solution for me and can be defined p=
er application use.

Regards,

Lionel
De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 11:15
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi

When a reporting node puts an OC-OLR an answer, this OLR is to be sent to t=
he origin Host of the corresponding request (eg  client 1). For eg a client=
 2, the reporting node  will put an OC-OLR in  an answer going to client 2 =
. I do not see why an OC-OLR that was put  in answer to client  1 will be p=
ut  later in the path  in an answer to client 2 or even  to answers to all =
clients and to distinguish these behaviors by extra indicators,  these are =
new things not needed in the baseline .

If a DA is acting on behalf of client 1, it will receive an OLR in  an answ=
er towards client 1 and will apply the traffic reduction to the traffic com=
ing from client 1 .  The same if it is acting on behalf of client 2. So no =
difference for the reporting node which is an objective.
Other approaches are new things that I do not yet  understand the need  and=
 that are  not part of the baseline.

So I remain in line with the  conclusions (and his hereafter mail) that  Ul=
rich  proposed and I think  supported  by several  of us.

Best regards

Jacques



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:53
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.  To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking th=
e reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absenc=
e of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all=
 clients.  Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the O=
rigin-Host.

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client

Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different=
 amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35

3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>

 If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is t=
he reacting node from the server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>

 But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a parti=
cular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Agent shou=
ld not assume that the received OLR is valid for all the clients below it. =
It does not preclude an agent to do so when it is know that
 for an application all the received are independent of the clients. But th=
is is something not required as per the base solution for me and can be def=
ined per application use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 11:15<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When a rep=
orting node puts an OC-OLR an answer, this OLR is to be sent to the origin =
Host of the corresponding request (eg&nbsp; client 1). For eg a
 client 2, the reporting node &nbsp;will put an OC-OLR in &nbsp;an answer g=
oing to client 2 . I do not see why an OC-OLR that was put &nbsp;in answer =
to client &nbsp;1 will be put &nbsp;later in the path &nbsp;in an answer to=
 client 2 or even &nbsp;to answers to all clients and to distinguish
 these behaviors by extra indicators, &nbsp;these are new things not needed=
 in the baseline .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If a DA is=
 acting on behalf of client 1, it will receive an OLR in &nbsp;an answer to=
wards client 1 and will apply the traffic reduction to the traffic
 coming from client 1 . &nbsp;The same if it is acting on behalf of client =
2. So no difference for the reporting node which is an objective.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Other appr=
oaches are new things that I do not yet &nbsp;understand the need &nbsp;and=
 that are &nbsp;not part of the baseline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So I remai=
n in line with the &nbsp;conclusions (and his hereafter mail) that &nbsp;Ul=
rich &nbsp;proposed and I think &nbsp;supported &nbsp;by several &nbsp;of u=
s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:53<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Ulrich,<br>
<br>
I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp=
; <br>
<br>
First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This,=
 I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; =
I suggest we capture in the agent behavior
 section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first suppor=
ting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non=
-supporting client.&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the=
 reacting node for the non-supporting
 client.<br>
<br>
We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't
 seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case=
 with other algorithms.<br>
<br>
My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.&nbsp; To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marki=
ng the reports that are specific to just
 the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of the &quot;single-client-o=
nly&quot; AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.&nbsp; Pres=
ence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulri=
ch (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ben,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">the proposed conclusion was based on comments rec=
eived so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). <o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now you seem to address two points:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the =
client.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">To address this I would like to propose rewording=
 of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, =
the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client tha=
t initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=
 <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">This would cover not only the case where an agent=
 takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non suppor=
ting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the rol=
e of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at th=
e same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-hos=
t of the client<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to =
allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and =
I think we have 3 options:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">1. ignore the 3GPP requirement<o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">2. introduce new report types as originally propo=
sed in #35<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-hos=
t of the client.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">So far I understood that people favoured option 3=
.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">See also inline.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">From: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nos=
trum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.or=
g</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich) <a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.co=
m&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">#35: additional report types are proposed<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">I believe we can conclude, not to add additional =
report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as fo=
llows:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">When an agent received an OLR in response to a re=
quest initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind t=
he received OLR to the origin-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">I do not agree.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">You proposal implies that the server's OLR only a=
pplies to that client.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;=
/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"> If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the a=
gent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnost=
ic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the pat=
h that takes the role of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"> But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothin=
g binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the c=
lients.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regar=
dless of DOIC support at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doe=
sn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional=
 option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making=
 them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the serve=
r.)&nbsp; It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">_______________________________________________<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a=
><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
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From nobody Mon Feb 24 03:28:27 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>    =20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client
Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different=
 amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35
3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>
 If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is t=
he reacting node from the server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>
 But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a parti=
cular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



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From nobody Mon Feb 24 04:21:27 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:21:20 +0000
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/HoI7xYZOsZ_i5d68sh9aQpHlCo0
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else
Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, iden=
tified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>    =20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>
 If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is t=
he reacting node from the server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>
 But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a parti=
cular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From nobody Mon Feb 24 04:43:23 2014
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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
Thread-Index: Ac8uORl1Xn9wvmyrSf2I+rd4YT2PBgATUamAABiWF1AACvi8gACOgNbAAAHYfYAAAac4cA==
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:43:14 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hi Mcruz and all

I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.=20
Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .

For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.

Best regards

Jacques=20

  =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>    =20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From nobody Mon Feb 24 05:03:22 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
Thread-Index: Ac8uORl1Xn9wvmyrSf2I+rd4YT2PBgATUamAABiWF1AACvi8gACOgNbAAAHYfYAAAac4cAAA5h9w
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References: <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3F63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <77A3D88E-DDC7-494A-8357-C0F8594A6310@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4177@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <53077659.1030909@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43B7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784859@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D20266A8C1@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/xRv2EOcY9lIKORMbpbWfKyJviKg
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hello JJ and all,

As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."=20

An Ulrich comments on this:
"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."

Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?=20
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Mcruz and all

I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.=20
Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .

For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.

Best regards

Jacques=20

  =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>    =20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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See inline

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:18 PM
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 21, 2014, at 9:52 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even =
for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overlo=
ad reports.  To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking =
the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Abse=
nce of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to a=
ll clients.  Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the=
 Origin-Host.

I support this approach. And of course, being me, I would like that AVP to =
contain the Diameter Identity of the client in question.
<Ulrich>why would there be the need to explicitly signal the the client's D=
iameter Identity? Isn't this information somehow available at the agent?</U=
lrich>

But I wonder--should this be limited to clients? Should it be possible for =
the server to bind an OLR to a particular _agent_? That is, some node on th=
e message path that is not the Origin-Host? For adjacent agents, this is ea=
sy--the server only sends the OLR to that agent. But that won't work for no=
n-adjacent agents.
<Ulrich>this shall be limited to clients.</Ulrich>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Hello,

I agree with Ulrich's proposal
Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46
To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion

I share JJacques concern. Replacing "from now on" with "for the period that=
 the overload report is active"
is misleading. May be its better to simply remove "from now on".

Ulrich





From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion

Hi MCruz, Steve

I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sur=
e.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on =
  "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to wh=
ich it refers.

During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic t=
he reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received th=
e OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and fro=
m the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  whi=
ch I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which =
I also agree.

As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may unders=
tand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think=
 to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange=
.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33
=C0 : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

+1 (including Steve comment)

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change belo=
w.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history



Following agreement is reached:



 Now (chapter 4.7):

    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.



 Proposal:

   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.          =
        <----





 Now (chapter 5.5.2):

      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to

      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the

      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the

      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value

      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true

      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up

      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every

      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application

      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100



  Proposal:

 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce

 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the

 reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          <---

 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       =
<---

 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to

 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th

 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try

 to recover from it.
SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"









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</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hello,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree with Ulrich&#8217=
;s proposal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46<br>
<b>To:</b> ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previo=
us history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I share JJacques concern.=
 Replacing
</span><span lang=3D"FR">&quot;from now on&quot; with &quot;for the period =
that the overload report is active&quot;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">is misleading. May be its=
 better to simply remove &#8220;from now on&#8221;.</span><span lang=3D"DE"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previo=
us history - conclusion</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi MCruz, Steve</span><sp=
an lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I also agree on the &#822=
0;would send &#8221; instead of the &#8220;would have sent&#8221; &nbsp;for=
 sure. &nbsp;But I have &nbsp;a small concern/ clarification &nbsp;about th=
e Steve comment on &nbsp;&nbsp;&#8220;</span>for
 the period that the overload report is active&#8221; <span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F=
497D">
and the example to which it refers.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">During the time the OLR i=
s active, which may be rather long, &nbsp;the traffic the reacting node wou=
ld send may be 100 packet &nbsp;when it has just received the OLR.
 A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and from the =
OLR definition, &nbsp;&nbsp;it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on&=
nbsp; which I agree. This is in line &nbsp;with the every 10th packet dropp=
ing &nbsp;on which I also agree.
</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As the text &nbsp;&nbsp;w=
ould &nbsp;be written with the Steve modification , we may understand it is=
 &nbsp;80 Packet during all the time &nbsp;the OLR is active. Not yet think=
 to an
 alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.mor=
and@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#43;1 (inclu=
ding Steve comment)</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"FR">Mar=
ia Cruz,<br>
<br>
I support your suggested changes.&nbsp; I have one further suggested change=
 below.<br>
<br>
Steve</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bar=
tolome wrote:</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous h=
istory</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE"> </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Following agreement is reached:</span><span lang=3D"=
DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> Now (chapter 4.7):</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (=
AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and describes the percentage of t=
he traffic that the sender is</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requested to reduce, compared to =
what it otherwise would have sent.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE"> </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;Proposal:</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP co=
de TBD8) is type of Unsigned32&nbsp; </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and describes the percentage of th=
e traffic that the sender is&nbsp; </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;requested to reduce, compared to w=
hat it otherwise would send.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;----</span><spa=
n lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE"> </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;Now (chapter 5.5.2):</span><span lang=3D"DE"><=
o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates that the re=
porting node urges the reacting node to</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduce its traffic by=
 a given percentage.&nbsp; For example if the</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node has bee=
n sending 100 packets per second to the</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reporting node, then =
a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of 10 would mean that=
 from now on the reacting node MUST only send</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90 packets per second=
.&nbsp; How the reacting node achieves the &quot;true</span><span lang=3D"D=
E"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduction&quot; trans=
actions leading to the sent request messages is up</span><span lang=3D"DE">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the implementation=
.&nbsp; The reacting node MAY simply drop every</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10th packet from its =
output queue and let the generic application</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logic try to recover =
from it.0 &lt; value &lt; 100</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp; Proposal:</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reactin=
g node to reduce </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;its traffic by a given percentage. For example=
 if the</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---=
</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Pe=
rcentage value of </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;10 would mean that from now on the reacting no=
de MUST only send</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node ac=
hieves the &quot;true&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---</span><sp=
an lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"> reduction&quot; transactions leading to the sent re=
quest messages is up to </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;the implementation. The reacting node MAY simp=
ly drop every 10th </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;packet from its output queue and let the gener=
ic application logic try </span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;to recover from it.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">SRD&gt; Replace &quot;from now on&=
quot; in the above with &quot;for the period that the overload report is ac=
tive&quot;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">_______________________________________________</spa=
n><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></=
span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dim=
e">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"DE"><=
o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________</span=
><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><sp=
an lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><=
span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><=
span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><span l=
ang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><span lan=
g=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><span lang=3D"=
DE"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"FR">Thank you.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hi MCruz,
there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.

If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.

Best regards
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello JJ and all,

As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."=20

An Ulrich comments on this:
"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."

Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?=20
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Mcruz and all

I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.=20
Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .

For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.

Best regards

Jacques=20

  =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>    =20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From nobody Mon Feb 24 05:26:35 2014
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 13:26:28 +0000
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/VEpcTyMpdzX6sDj33q6q-3rQ-L0
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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I don't see the issue, as explained in my mail but OK to remove it.=20

If "for now" is removed, the resulting text would be:

  For example if the reacting node has been sending
  100 packets per second to the reporting node, then
  a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value=A0of 10
  would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST
  only send 90 packets per second.

Maybe it would be even easier to reverse the sentence as follow:

 For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20
=A010 has been received, the reacting node which=20
 would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90=20
 packets to the reporting node.


But I'm fine if the initial proposed revised text is kept.

Lionel

De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:13
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous his=
tory - conclusion

Hello,
=A0
I agree with Ulrich's proposal
Cheers
/MCruz
=A0
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46
To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion
=A0
I share JJacques concern. Replacing "from now on" with "for the period that=
 the overload report is active"
is misleading. May be its better to simply remove "from now on".
=A0
Ulrich
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion
=A0
Hi MCruz, Steve
=A0
I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent" =A0for s=
ure. =A0But I have =A0a small concern/ clarification =A0about the Steve com=
ment on =A0=A0"for the period that the overload report is active" and the e=
xample to which it refers.
=A0
During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long, =A0the traffic=
 the reacting node would send may be 100 packet =A0when it has just receive=
d the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and=
 from the OLR definition, =A0=A0it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets,=
 on=A0 which I agree. This is in line =A0with the every 10th packet droppin=
g =A0on which I also agree.=20
=A0=A0
As the text =A0=A0would =A0be written with the Steve modification , we may =
understand it is =A080 Packet during all the time =A0the OLR is active. Not=
 yet think to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my re=
mark.
=A0
JJacques=20
=A0
=A0
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33
=C0=A0: Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous his=
tory - conclusion
=A0
+1 (including Steve comment)
=A0
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous his=
tory - conclusion
=A0
Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.=A0 I have one further suggested change be=
low.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
=20
Following agreement is reached:
=A0
 Now (chapter 4.7):
=A0=A0=A0 The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsign=
ed32
=A0=A0=A0 and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
=A0=A0=A0 requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sen=
t.
=20
=A0Proposal:
=A0=A0 The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned3=
2=A0=20
=A0=A0=A0and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is=A0=
=20
=A0=A0=A0requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <----
=20
=A0
=A0Now (chapter 5.5.2):
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reduce its traffic by a given percentage.=A0 For example if=
 the
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage=
 value
 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST on=
ly send
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 90 packets per second.=A0 How the reacting node achieves th=
e "true
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request message=
s is up
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 to the implementation.=A0 The reacting node MAY simply drop=
 every
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 10th packet from its output queue and let the generic appli=
cation
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
=A0
=A0 Proposal:
 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce=20
=A0its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
 reacting node would send 100 packets to the=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <---
 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20
=A010 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0 <---
 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to=20
=A0the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=20
=A0packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try=
=20
=A0to recover from it.
SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"





=A0
=A0
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/RzAoeISXVIGj946pE3Xgdg53PTU
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hello Ulrich,

I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.

I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.=20

I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi MCruz,
there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.

If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.

Best regards
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello JJ and all,

As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."=20

An Ulrich comments on this:
"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."

Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?=20
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Mcruz and all

I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.=20
Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .

For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.

Best regards

Jacques=20

  =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>    =20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

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To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hi Mcruz

I have not said my proposal was limited to Host OLR. If a DA acting as reac=
ting node receives Realm OLRs in answers to a client of  which DA is acting=
 on behalf, DA will apply the realm OLR throttling to requests without dest=
ination host coming from the client.

Now I am not sure that adding an AVP will simplify the DA life. The princip=
le I have in mind is that each time we add an AVP, this multiply the combin=
ational possibilities and so we have to be careful. To come back to Host OL=
RS, if DA receives an OLR in an answer for Client 1 and an OLR in another  =
answer for client 2 and they are marked as not binded to client, which one =
prevails ? I think there may be some other questions that could 	arise. So =
my priority remains on the baseline, with OLR binded to a client.


Best regards
  =20
JJacques=20
 =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello Ulrich,

I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.

I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.=20

I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi MCruz,
there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.

If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.

Best regards
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello JJ and all,

As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."=20

An Ulrich comments on this:
"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."

Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?=20
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Mcruz and all

I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.=20
Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .

For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.

Best regards

Jacques=20

  =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>    =20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:06:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Is it implicit?=20

If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.

Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.

Regards,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello Ulrich,

I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.

I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.=20

I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi MCruz,
there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.

If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.

Best regards
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello JJ and all,

As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."=20

An Ulrich comments on this:
"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."

Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?=20
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Mcruz and all

I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.=20
Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .

For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.

Best regards

Jacques=20

=20=20=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=
=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>=20=20=20=20=20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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___________________________________________________________________________=
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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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References: <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3F63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <77A3D88E-DDC7-494A-8357-C0F8594A6310@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4177@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <53077659.1030909@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43B7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784859@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D20266A8C1@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920978489B@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4441@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784904@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <6255_1393250808_530B51F7_6255_2234_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4BB90C@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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I am in line with Lionel.

JJacques=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 15:07
=C0=A0: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Is it implicit?=20

If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.

Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.

Regards,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello Ulrich,

I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.

I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.=20

I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi MCruz,
there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.

If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.

Best regards
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello JJ and all,

As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."=20

An Ulrich comments on this:
"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."

Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?=20
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Mcruz and all

I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.=20
Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .

For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.

Best regards

Jacques=20

  =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>    =20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hello JJ,
To the specific case you mentioned:  "To come back to Host OLRS, if DA rece=
ives an OLR in an answer for Client 1 and an OLR in another  answer for cli=
ent 2 and they are marked as not binded to client, which one prevails ?"
If OLRs are not marked as bind to each client, then it means that they appl=
y to any/all clients (what by the way has been our assumption from the begi=
nning until Ulrich started this subject in order to cover 3GPP requirement)=
. Therefore, latest received will apply (if modified).=20

Best regards
/MCruz


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:52
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Mcruz

I have not said my proposal was limited to Host OLR. If a DA acting as reac=
ting node receives Realm OLRs in answers to a client of  which DA is acting=
 on behalf, DA will apply the realm OLR throttling to requests without dest=
ination host coming from the client.

Now I am not sure that adding an AVP will simplify the DA life. The princip=
le I have in mind is that each time we add an AVP, this multiply the combin=
ational possibilities and so we have to be careful. To come back to Host OL=
RS, if DA receives an OLR in an answer for Client 1 and an OLR in another  =
answer for client 2 and they are marked as not binded to client, which one =
prevails ? I think there may be some other questions that could 	arise. So =
my priority remains on the baseline, with OLR binded to a client.


Best regards
  =20
JJacques=20
 =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello Ulrich,

I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.

I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.=20

I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi MCruz,
there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.

If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.

Best regards
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello JJ and all,

As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."=20

An Ulrich comments on this:
"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."

Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?=20
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Mcruz and all

I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.=20
Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .

For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.

Best regards

Jacques=20

  =20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolo=
me Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0=A0: dime@ietf.org Objet=
=A0: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=A0=20

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.=A0 This, I =
guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.=A0 I sugg=
est we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing word=
ing indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request mu=
st be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=A0 Subsequent DOIC =
supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting clie=
nt.
<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.=A0 On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorith=
m, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.=A0 Absence of the =
"single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.=
=A0 Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-H=
ost.
<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>    =20

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).=20
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.=20

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
=20
Dear all,
=20
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
=20
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.
<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.
<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.

_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host
in the request is not just an optimization for agents.

It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a
reporting node (server) would be to report a single overload value to
all reacting nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default
behavior then it would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning of
an overload report to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real
value of this new feature is to allow a server to further throttle a
specific, overly active, reacting node when then global reduction
percentage doesn't do the job.

In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single
global reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload
report to each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on
agents when it adds no value.

My proposal is the following:

- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to
overload reports that indicate when an overload report applies to a
specific reacting node.

- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting
nodes (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).

- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the
overload report contents are different from the global overload report.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP
must do the following:
  - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not act
on the OLR.
  - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must
apply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.   This
implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not
differentiate which non supporting client originated the request.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a
transaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to
that single client.

Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from
the -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this wording
independent of the resolution of this issue.

Steve

On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> Is it implicit? 
>
> If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.
>
> Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 14:27
> À : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
> Hello Ulrich,
>
> I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.
>
> I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. 
>
> I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.
>
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] 
> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
> Hi MCruz,
> there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.
>
> If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.
>
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
> Hello JJ and all,
>
> As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
> "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." 
>
> An Ulrich comments on this:
> "This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."
>
> Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? 
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
> Hi Mcruz and all
>
> I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. 
> Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients  .
>
> For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.
>
> Best regards
>
> Jacques 
>
>    
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 13:21 À : dime@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
> Hello all,
>
> Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
> Let me try to explain my concerns.
>
> The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
> Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:
>
> a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
> Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.
> But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
> Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):
> "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
> But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
> How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:
> - C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
> - S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
> - Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?
> In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.
>
> b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
> With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.
>
> Let me know your opinions please
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
> To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
> Steve,
>
> please see inline.
>
> Ulrich
>
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
> Ulrich,
>
> I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.  
>
> First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.
> <Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>
>
>
> We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
> <Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>
>
> My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.
> <Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
> To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.
> <Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.</Ulrich>     
>
> Steve
> On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Ben,
>
> the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). 
> Now you seem to address two points:
> a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
> To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:
>
> When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. 
>
> This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.
>
> b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
> 1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
> 2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.
>
> So far I understood that people favoured option 3.
>
> See also inline.
>
> Ulrich
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
> #35: additional report types are proposed
>  
> Dear all,
>  
> I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
>  
> When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.
>
> I do not agree.
>
> You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
> <Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.
> <Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
> <Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client</Ulrich>
>
>  Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.
>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Adding an AVP to indicate
      that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in the request is
      not just an optimization for agents.<br>
      <br>
      It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a
      reporting node (server) would be to report a single overload value
      to all reacting nodes, be they clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the
      default behavior then it would be best to have the default,
      implicit, meaning of an overload report to be "applies to all
      reacting nodes".&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow a
      server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting
      node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
      <br>
      In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a
      single global reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind
      an overload report to each non supporting clients pushes a lot of
      extra work on agents when it adds no value.<br>
      <br>
      My proposal is the following:<br>
      <br>
      - Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to
      overload reports that indicate when an overload report applies to
      a specific reacting node.<br>
      <br>
      - Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all
      reacting nodes (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC
      clients).<br>
      <br>
      - Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the
      overload report contents are different from the global overload
      report.<br>
      <br>
      - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node
      AVP must do the following:<br>
      &nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must
      not act on the OLR.<br>
      &nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent
      must apply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting
      clients. &nbsp; This implies that when making throttling decisions, the
      agent does not differentiate which non supporting client
      originated the request.<br>
      <br>
      - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP
      for a transaction originated by a non supporting client must bind
      that OLR to that single client.<br>
      <br>
      Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is
      missing from the -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need something
      like this wording independent of the resolution of this issue.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:6255_1393250808_530B51F7_6255_2234_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4BB90C@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Is it implicit? 

If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.

Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.

Regards,

Lionel

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 14:27
&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello Ulrich,

I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.

I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. 

I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.

Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] 
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi MCruz,
there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.

If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.

Best regards
Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello JJ and all,

As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." 

An Ulrich comments on this:
"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."

Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? 
Best regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Mcruz and all

I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. 
Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients  .

For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.

Best regards

Jacques 

   

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:21 &Agrave;&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hello all,

Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
Let me try to explain my concerns.

The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:

a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.
But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):
"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:
- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?
In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.

b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.

Let me know your opinions please
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
To: ext Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve,

please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Ulrich,

I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp; 

First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.
&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;


We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;
To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.
&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;     

Steve
On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Ben,

the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). 
Now you seem to address two points:
a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:

When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. 

This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.

b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.

So far I understood that people favoured option 3.

See also inline.

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion


On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

#35: additional report types are proposed
 
Dear all,
 
I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
 
When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.

I do not agree.

You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;  If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.

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</pre>
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I'm with Lionel.  I don't understand why the proposed wording is
confusing.  Reacting nodes always only apply the reduction percentage
for the period of time that the specific overload report is active. 
That period either ends when a new overload report is received or when
the overload report expires.

That said, I'm happy with just removing the words "from no on" as
proposed by Lionel below.

Steve
 
On 2/24/14 7:26 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> I don't see the issue, as explained in my mail but OK to remove it. 
>
> If "for now" is removed, the resulting text would be:
>
>   For example if the reacting node has been sending
>   100 packets per second to the reporting node, then
>   a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 10
>   would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST
>   only send 90 packets per second.
>
> Maybe it would be even easier to reverse the sentence as follow:
>
>  For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
>  10 has been received, the reacting node which 
>  would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90 
>  packets to the reporting node.
>
>
> But I'm fine if the initial proposed revised text is kept.
>
> Lionel
>
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
> Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 14:13
> À : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
>
> Hello,
>  
> I agree with Ulrich's proposal
> Cheers
> /MCruz
>  
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46
> To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
>  
> I share JJacques concern. Replacing "from now on" with "for the period that the overload report is active"
> is misleading. May be its better to simply remove "from now on".
>  
> Ulrich
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
>  
> Hi MCruz, Steve
>  
> I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sure.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on   "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to which it refers.
>  
> During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic the reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and from the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  which I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which I also agree. 
>   
> As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may understand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.
>  
> JJacques 
>  
>  
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange.com
> Envoyé : vendredi 21 février 2014 18:33
> À : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
>  
> +1 (including Steve comment)
>  
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
> Envoyé : vendredi 21 février 2014 16:37
> À : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
>  
> Maria Cruz,
>
> I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change below.
>
> Steve
> On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>  
> Following agreement is reached:
>  
>  Now (chapter 4.7):
>     The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
>     and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>     requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
>  
>  Proposal:
>    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32  
>    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is  
>    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.                  <----
>  
>  
>  Now (chapter 5.5.2):
>       Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
>       reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
>       reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
>       reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
>       of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>       90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
>       reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
>       to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
>       10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
>       logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
>  
>   Proposal:
>  Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce 
>  its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
>  reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          <---
>  reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
>  10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>  90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       <---
>  reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to 
>  the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th 
>  packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try 
>  to recover from it.
> SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overload report is active"
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
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> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>  
>  
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>  
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> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
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>  
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> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
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>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
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--------------030103070304020000090506
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I'm with Lionel.&nbsp; I don't
      understand why the proposed wording is confusing.&nbsp; Reacting nodes
      always only apply the reduction percentage for the period of time
      that the specific overload report is active.&nbsp; That period either
      ends when a new overload report is received or when the overload
      report expires.<br>
      <br>
      That said, I'm happy with just removing the words "from no on" as
      proposed by Lionel below.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      &nbsp;</font><br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/14 7:26 AM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:421_1393248389_530B4885_421_10731_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4BB770@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I don't see the issue, as explained in my mail but OK to remove it. 

If "for now" is removed, the resulting text would be:

  For example if the reacting node has been sending
  100 packets per second to the reporting node, then
  a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value&nbsp;of 10
  would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST
  only send 90 packets per second.

Maybe it would be even easier to reverse the sentence as follow:

 For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
&nbsp;10 has been received, the reacting node which 
 would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90 
 packets to the reporting node.


But I'm fine if the initial proposed revised text is kept.

Lionel

De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 14:13
&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion

Hello,
&nbsp;
I agree with Ulrich's proposal
Cheers
/MCruz
&nbsp;
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46
To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
&nbsp;
I share JJacques concern. Replacing "from now on" with "for the period that the overload report is active"
is misleading. May be its better to simply remove "from now on".
&nbsp;
Ulrich
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
&nbsp;
Hi MCruz, Steve
&nbsp;
I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent" &nbsp;for sure. &nbsp;But I have &nbsp;a small concern/ clarification &nbsp;about the Steve comment on &nbsp;&nbsp;"for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to which it refers.
&nbsp;
During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long, &nbsp;the traffic the reacting node would send may be 100 packet &nbsp;when it has just received the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and from the OLR definition, &nbsp;&nbsp;it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on&nbsp; which I agree. This is in line &nbsp;with the every 10th packet dropping &nbsp;on which I also agree. 
&nbsp;&nbsp;
As the text &nbsp;&nbsp;would &nbsp;be written with the Steve modification , we may understand it is &nbsp;80 Packet during all the time &nbsp;the OLR is active. Not yet think to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.
&nbsp;
JJacques 
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: vendredi 21 f&eacute;vrier 2014 18:33
&Agrave;&nbsp;: Steve Donovan; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
&nbsp;
+1 (including Steve comment)
&nbsp;
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: vendredi 21 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:37
&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
&nbsp;
Maria Cruz,

I support your suggested changes.&nbsp; I have one further suggested change below.

Steve
On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
 
Following agreement is reached:
&nbsp;
 Now (chapter 4.7):
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
 
&nbsp;Proposal:
&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;----
 
&nbsp;
&nbsp;Now (chapter 5.5.2):
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduce its traffic by a given percentage.&nbsp; For example if the
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90 packets per second.&nbsp; How the reacting node achieves the "true
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the implementation.&nbsp; The reacting node MAY simply drop every
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logic try to recover from it.0 &lt; value &lt; 100
&nbsp;
&nbsp; Proposal:
 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce 
&nbsp;its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
 reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---
 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 
&nbsp;10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---
 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to 
&nbsp;the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th 
&nbsp;packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try 
&nbsp;to recover from it.
SRD&gt; Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overload report is active"





&nbsp;
&nbsp;
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&nbsp;
&nbsp;
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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Thank you.

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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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--------------030103070304020000090506--


From nobody Mon Feb 24 08:19:44 2014
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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type

 I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will
 be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual
 name of the report.

 The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
 reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm
 routed requests sent to the reporting node.

 This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling
 traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that
 Diameter application.

 Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and
 all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
 application.

 When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the
 number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The
 server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.

 Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to
 handle new sessions.

 Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the
 network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the
 throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
 throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded
 servers.

 The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by
 DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers
 able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of
 requests routed to the overloaded server.

 Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the
 answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report
 from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
 path) or by an agent and a client.

 Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
 throttling the requested percentage.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  srdonovan@usdonovans.com           |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/57>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
Thread-Index: AQHPLKXn/K5opEUqEkqiVdwfHsd6G5rEUNjAgABMwyA=
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:22:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
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Ulrich,

In your proposal you newly define overload control states per client/origin=
-host.
This is very related to the ongoing discussion in Issue#35. Then, at least =
I think we need to first conclude on that thread.

A part from that,  we need to take into account that 3GPP requirement on ov=
erload mitigation differentiation per client is a server option:
TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent implementatio=
ns to decide when and whether overload mitigation differentiation per clien=
t is used".

Therefore, it could be better to keep this differentiation per client/origi=
n-host out of chapter 5.5.1.

Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:44
To: dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

There has been no discussion of this ticket.

I propose to replace text in claues 5.5.1 as suggested in the ticket.

Regards
Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@grenache.tools.ietf.org]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:35 PM
To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

#56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

 The description of Overload Control State in clause 5.5.1 is inaccurate,  =
incomplete and could be misleading. It does not differentiate between  Over=
load Control State in a reacting node versus Overload Control State in  a r=
eporting node. It also does not describe how Overload Control States  are m=
aintained.

 It is proposed to replace current text with the following:


 5.5.1.  Overload Control State (OCS)

    5.5.1.1   Overload Control States for reacting nodes

    A reacting node (client) maintains per supported Diameter application
    a host-type Overload Control State for each Destination-Host towards
    which it sends host-type requests and a realm-type Overload Control  St=
ate
    for each Destination-Realm toward which it sends realm-type requests.
    A host-type Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of
    Application-Id and Destination-Host; a realm-type Overload Control  Sta=
te
    may be identified by the pair of Application-Id and Destination-Realm.
    The host-type/realm-type Overload Control State for a given pair of
    Application and Destination-Host / Destination-Realm could include the
    information as shown in table 1/table 2.

    <see attachment>

    Agents that take the role of a reacting node on behalf of clients MUST
    maintain Overload Control States per client.

    5.5.1.2   Overload Control States for reporting nodes

    A reporting node (server) maintains per supported Diameter application
    an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which it receives
    requests that contain an (explicit or implicit) indication of
    OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.

    A reporting node (agent that is configured to take the role of a
    reporting node for a given realm) maintains per supported Diameter
    application an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which  =
it
    receives realm-type requests (of that given realm) that contain an
    (explicit or implicit) indication of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.

    A Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of Application- =
 Id
    and Origin-Host.

    The Overload Control State for a given pair of Application and Origin-
    Host could include the information as shown in table 3.
    <see attachment>

    Note: For nodes that support other features than just OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO
    the Overload Control State definitions may need to be extended.

    5.5.1.3  Maintaining Overload Control States

    Reacting nodes create a host-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when  recei=
ving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of A and a
    host-type OC-OLR AVP unless such host-type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes create a realm-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when  rece=
iving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm of A and a
    realm-type OC-OLR AVP unless such realm type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes delete an OCS when it expires (i.e. when current time
    minus reception time is greater than validity duration).

    Reacting nodes update the host-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of
    A and a host-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reacting nodes update the realm-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm  =
of
    A and a realm-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reporting nodes create an OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when receiving a
    request (indicating support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO) of application x
    containing an Orig-Host of A unless such OCS already exists.

    Reporting nodes delete an OCS when it expires.

    Reporting nodes update the OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when they detect t=
he
    need to modify the requested amount of application x traffic reduction
    generated by A.

--=20
-------------------------+----------------------------------------------
-------------------------+---
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com   |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+----------------------------------------------
-------------------------+---

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/56>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
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Ulrich,

See inline.

Steve

On 2/24/14 5:44 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> There has been no discussion of this ticket.
>
> I propose to replace text in claues 5.5.1 as suggested in the ticket.
>
> Regards
> Ulrich
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@grenache.tools.ietf.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:35 PM
> To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
>
> #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
>
>  The description of Overload Control State in clause 5.5.1 is inaccurate,
>  incomplete and could be misleading. It does not differentiate between
>  Overload Control State in a reacting node versus Overload Control State in
>  a reporting node. It also does not describe how Overload Control States
>  are maintained.
>
>  It is proposed to replace current text with the following:
>
>
>  5.5.1.  Overload Control State (OCS)
>
>     5.5.1.1   Overload Control States for reacting nodes
>
>     A reacting node (client) maintains per supported Diameter application
SRD> Why qualify with client.  It applies to all reacting nodes.
>     a host-type Overload Control State for each Destination-Host towards
>     which it sends host-type requests and a realm-type Overload Control
>  State
SRD> ...and... (add the word and here)
>     for each Destination-Realm toward which it sends realm-type requests.
>     A host-type Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of
>     Application-Id and Destination-Host; a realm-type Overload Control
>  State
>     may be identified by the pair of Application-Id and Destination-Realm.
>     The host-type/realm-type Overload Control State for a given pair of
>     Application and Destination-Host / Destination-Realm could include the
>     information as shown in table 1/table 2.
>
>     <see attachment>
SRD> Reception time and validity duration could be replaced with
"expiration time"
>
>     Agents that take the role of a reacting node on behalf of clients MUST
>     maintain Overload Control States per client.
SRD> This depends on the resolution of the current discussion of issue
35.  I propose it be modified to "Agents that take the reacting node on
behalf of non-supporting clients must maintain either the global
overload state or per client overload state if requested by the
reporting node.
>
>     5.5.1.2   Overload Control States for reporting nodes
>
>     A reporting node (server) maintains per supported Diameter application
SRD> There is no reason to qualify the reporting node as a server.  It
could also be an agent and all of this still applies.
>     an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which it receives
>     requests that contain an (explicit or implicit) indication of
>     OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.
SRD> It doesn't need to be per Origin-Host, per the discussion of issue
35.  We should support a global overload state if the reporting node
doesn't which to keep per reacting node state.
>
>     A reporting node (agent that is configured to take the role of a
>     reporting node for a given realm) maintains per supported Diameter
>     application an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which
>  it
>     receives realm-type requests (of that given realm) that contain an
>     (explicit or implicit) indication of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.
>
>     A Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of Application-
>  Id
>     and Origin-Host.
SRD> I don't see this as a must.  It could be identified by just
Application-ID.
>
>     The Overload Control State for a given pair of Application and Origin-
>     Host could include the information as shown in table 3.
>     <see attachment>
SRD> Expiration time should be sufficient.
>
>     Note: For nodes that support other features than just OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO
>     the Overload Control State definitions may need to be extended.
>
>     5.5.1.3  Maintaining Overload Control States
>
>     Reacting nodes create a host-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
>  receiving
>     an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of A and a
>     host-type OC-OLR AVP unless such host-type OCS already exists.
>
>     Reacting nodes create a realm-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
>  receiving
>     an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm of A and a
>     realm-type OC-OLR AVP unless such realm type OCS already exists.
>
>     Reacting nodes delete an OCS when it expires (i.e. when current time
>     minus reception time is greater than validity duration).
>
>     Reacting nodes update the host-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
>     receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of
>     A and a host-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
>     stored sequence number.
>
>     Reacting nodes update the realm-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
>     receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm
>  of
>     A and a realm-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
>     stored sequence number.
>
>     Reporting nodes create an OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when receiving a
>     request (indicating support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO) of application x
>     containing an Orig-Host of A unless such OCS already exists.
SRD> Why would the reporting node create an OCS when it is not
overloaded?  Shouldn't this be modified to say that the reporting nodes
creates an OCS when receiving a request and when in an overloaded state
for the application?  Also, we should not require that the reporting
node keep state for all reacting nodes, it should be able to keep a
single state for all reacting nodes.
>
>     Reporting nodes delete an OCS when it expires.
SRD> or when the reporting node exits the overload state.  This should
be after the reporting node sends an overload report with validity
duration of zero to reacting nodes.
>
>     Reporting nodes update the OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when they detect the
>     need to modify the requested amount of application x traffic reduction
>     generated by A.
>


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<html>
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      See inline.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/14 5:44 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">There has been no discussion of this ticket.

I propose to replace text in claues 5.5.1 as suggested in the ticket.

Regards
Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext dime issue tracker [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trac+dime@grenache.tools.ietf.org">mailto:trac+dime@grenache.tools.ietf.org</a>] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:35 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

#56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

 The description of Overload Control State in clause 5.5.1 is inaccurate,
 incomplete and could be misleading. It does not differentiate between
 Overload Control State in a reacting node versus Overload Control State in
 a reporting node. It also does not describe how Overload Control States
 are maintained.

 It is proposed to replace current text with the following:


 5.5.1.  Overload Control State (OCS)

    5.5.1.1   Overload Control States for reacting nodes

    A reacting node (client) maintains per supported Diameter application</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Why qualify with client.&nbsp; It applies to all reacting nodes.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
    a host-type Overload Control State for each Destination-Host towards
    which it sends host-type requests and a realm-type Overload Control
 State</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; ...and... (add the word and here)<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
    for each Destination-Realm toward which it sends realm-type requests.
    A host-type Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of
    Application-Id and Destination-Host; a realm-type Overload Control
 State
    may be identified by the pair of Application-Id and Destination-Realm.
    The host-type/realm-type Overload Control State for a given pair of
    Application and Destination-Host / Destination-Realm could include the
    information as shown in table 1/table 2.

    &lt;see attachment&gt;</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Reception time and validity duration could be replaced with
    "expiration time"<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

    Agents that take the role of a reacting node on behalf of clients MUST
    maintain Overload Control States per client.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; This depends on the resolution of the current discussion of
    issue 35.&nbsp; I propose it be modified to "Agents that take the
    reacting node on behalf of non-supporting clients must maintain
    either the global overload state or per client overload state if
    requested by the reporting node.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

    5.5.1.2   Overload Control States for reporting nodes

    A reporting node (server) maintains per supported Diameter application</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; There is no reason to qualify the reporting node as a
    server.&nbsp; It could also be an agent and all of this still applies.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
    an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which it receives
    requests that contain an (explicit or implicit) indication of
    OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; It doesn't need to be per Origin-Host, per the discussion of
    issue 35.&nbsp; We should support a global overload state if the
    reporting node doesn't which to keep per reacting node state.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

    A reporting node (agent that is configured to take the role of a
    reporting node for a given realm) maintains per supported Diameter
    application an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which
 it
    receives realm-type requests (of that given realm) that contain an
    (explicit or implicit) indication of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.

    A Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of Application-
 Id
    and Origin-Host.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; I don't see this as a must.&nbsp; It could be identified by just
    Application-ID.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

    The Overload Control State for a given pair of Application and Origin-
    Host could include the information as shown in table 3.
    &lt;see attachment&gt;</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Expiration time should be sufficient.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

    Note: For nodes that support other features than just OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO
    the Overload Control State definitions may need to be extended.

    5.5.1.3  Maintaining Overload Control States

    Reacting nodes create a host-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
 receiving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of A and a
    host-type OC-OLR AVP unless such host-type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes create a realm-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
 receiving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm of A and a
    realm-type OC-OLR AVP unless such realm type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes delete an OCS when it expires (i.e. when current time
    minus reception time is greater than validity duration).

    Reacting nodes update the host-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of
    A and a host-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reacting nodes update the realm-type OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm
 of
    A and a realm-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reporting nodes create an OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when receiving a
    request (indicating support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO) of application x
    containing an Orig-Host of A unless such OCS already exists.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Why would the reporting node create an OCS when it is not
    overloaded?&nbsp; Shouldn't this be modified to say that the reporting
    nodes creates an OCS when receiving a request and when in an
    overloaded state for the application?&nbsp; Also, we should not require
    that the reporting node keep state for all reacting nodes, it should
    be able to keep a single state for all reacting nodes.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

    Reporting nodes delete an OCS when it expires.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; or when the reporting node exits the overload state.&nbsp; This
    should be after the reporting node sends an overload report with
    validity duration of zero to reacting nodes.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43DE@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

    Reporting nodes update the OCS with OCS-Id = (x,A) when they detect the
    need to modify the requested amount of application x traffic reduction
    generated by A.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload
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Ulrich,

For the following:

---

We also have proposed wording on the interaction between these report types.  

<Ulrich> can you please remind me what that proposed wording is. My current understanding is that there is no interaction between these two report types</Ulrich>

--- 

I agree with you that there is no interaction between the host reports
and "realm-routed" reports (or what ever we end up calling them).

Steve
 
On 2/21/14 1:07 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Steve,
>
> see inline.
> Ulrich
>
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 9:54 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload
>
> We've had a lot of discussion of this topic.
>
> I believe that we reached agreement that we currently have two types of reports:
>
> - Host report that applies to requests sent to a destination-host
> - Realm report that applies requests routed to a realm that do not have a specified destination-host (realm-routed requests)
>
> <Ulrich> I agree</Ulrich>
>
> We also have proposed wording on the interaction between these report types.  
>
> <Ulrich> can you please remind me what that proposed wording is. My current understanding is that there is no interaction between these two report types</Ulrich>
>
> I propose that the second be renamed to realm-routed reports.
>
> <Ulrich> no strong view, but my preference is in favour of "absent-host reports"</Ulrich>
>
> A separate ticket has been opened on the need for a third report type that would apply to all request routed to a realm, independent of whether a request contains a destination-host AVP.
> <Ulrich> I understand that this is #55</Ulrich>
>
> Steve
> On 1/21/14 9:24 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
> #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload
>
>  This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01, which does not show up in the
>  Component drop down menu.
>
>  The current assumption in the -01 draft is inconsistent in the definition
>  of behavior of behavior by a reacting node when it receives a realm
>  overload report.
>
>  Section 4.6 says overload treatment should apply to all request bound for
>  the overloaded realm.
>
>  Section 5.5.2 is not clear and there have been interpretations that a
>  realm overload report only applies to requests that contain the realm and
>  do not contain a destination-host AVP.
>
>  Section 5.5.2 should be updated to be consistent with section 4.6.
>
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      For the following</font>:<br>
    <br>
    ---<br>
    <pre wrap="">We also have proposed wording on the interaction between these report types.Â  

&lt;Ulrich&gt; can you please remind me what that proposed wording is. My current understanding is that there is no interaction between these two report types&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

--- 
</pre>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I agree with you that
      there is no interaction between the host reports and
      "realm-routed" reports (or what ever we end up calling them).<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
    </font>Â <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/21/14 1:07 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B40C7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Steve,

see inline.
Ulrich

From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 9:54 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #23: DOIC behavior for realm overload

We've had a lot of discussion of this topic.

I believe that we reached agreement that we currently have two types of reports:

- Host report that applies to requests sent to a destination-host
- Realm report that applies requests routed to a realm that do not have a specified destination-host (realm-routed requests)

&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

We also have proposed wording on the interaction between these report types.Â  

&lt;Ulrich&gt; can you please remind me what that proposed wording is. My current understanding is that there is no interaction between these two report types&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

I propose that the second be renamed to realm-routed reports.

&lt;Ulrich&gt; no strong view, but my preference is in favour of "absent-host reports"&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

A separate ticket has been opened on the need for a third report type that would apply to all request routed to a realm, independent of whether a request contains a destination-host AVP.
&lt;Ulrich&gt; I understand that this is #55&lt;/Ulrich&gt;

Steve
On 1/21/14 9:24 AM, dime issue tracker wrote:
#23: DOIC behavior for realm overload

 This applies to draft-ietf-dime-ovli-01, which does not show up in the
 Component drop down menu.

 The current assumption in the -01 draft is inconsistent in the definition
 of behavior of behavior by a reacting node when it receives a realm
 overload report.

 Section 4.6 says overload treatment should apply to all request bound for
 the overloaded realm.

 Section 5.5.2 is not clear and there have been interpretations that a
 realm overload report only applies to requests that contain the realm and
 do not contain a destination-host AVP.

 Section 5.5.2 should be updated to be consistent with section 4.6.


</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Ben,

One comment below.

Steve

On 2/20/14 5:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>> - Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting node.  It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection element to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.
> I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be _sent_ by reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for the realm's overload state. But there's no requirement that there be only one, just that if there are more than one they don't contradict each other.
SRD> The reason for this requirement is to handle the likelihood that
each reporting node of the new realm report type will have independent
sequence numbers.  Thus, as long as all reporting nodes report all
updates to the realm overload status, it should be sufficient for a
reacting node to only listen to one of the reporting nodes when
determining if the OLR is new.
>
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ben,<br>
      <br>
      One comment below.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/20/14 5:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:6854BD31-1B9A-4F72-B987-E25B407EBD57@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">- Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting node.  It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection element to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be _sent_ by reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for the realm's overload state. But there's no requirement that there be only one, just that if there are more than one they don't contradict each other.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; The reason for this requirement is to handle the likelihood
    that each reporting node of the new realm report type will have
    independent sequence numbers.&nbsp; Thus, as long as all reporting nodes
    report all updates to the realm overload status, it should be
    sufficient for a reacting node to only listen to one of the
    reporting nodes when determining if the OLR is new.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:6854BD31-1B9A-4F72-B987-E25B407EBD57@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

</pre>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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I propose the following resolution for issue 23:

Proposal -- Change the name of realm report. 


Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.


Proposal -- Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request" reports to
indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm when there
is no destination-host AVP in the request.  Specifically, section 4.6
requires updating.

There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all
transactions to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.

Regards,

Steve

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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I propose the following
      resolution for issue 23:<br>
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    <p class="MsoNormal">Proposal &#8211; Change the name of realm report.<span
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      Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></p>
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mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
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      Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on
      &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; reports to indicate that they apply only to
      requests
      targeted to a realm when there is no destination-host AVP in the
      request.&nbsp; Specifically, section 4.6 requires updating.<br>
      <br>
      There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all
      transactions to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed by ticket number 55.<br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      <br>
      Steve</span>
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From nobody Mon Feb 24 09:56:36 2014
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:56:32 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: [Dime] Issue #25 Proposed Resolution
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I propose that we close issue 25 as the resolution of issue 24 addressed
the concerns raised in issue 25.

Note that this requires a new section in the draft to define agent
behavior.  The actual wording of that section will need to be agreed to
before issue 24 can be closed.

Steve

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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I propose that we close
      issue 25 as the resolution of issue 24 addressed the concerns raised
      in issue 25.<br>
      <br>
      Note that this requires a new section in the draft to define agent
      behavior.&nbsp; The actual wording of that section will need to be
      agreed to before issue 24 can be closed.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
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From nobody Mon Feb 24 10:08:57 2014
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References: <066.b54c2f5aeb31c9b3f88c96008120290d@trac.tools.ietf.org> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209773085@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52FA3CC6.905020 5@usdonovans.com> <17910_1392132298_52FA40CA_17910_2863_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A28D@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <11546_1392132645_52FA4225_11546_3173_1_0aa80fb0-8382-459e-aebf-2ee5d5f70edc@PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026644D6@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <D2D4DD91-8F3D-4C24-9E3A-E2AE3918D468@gmail.com> <52FCBBF7.7000700@usdonovans.com> <D4BE67F7-6D7B-4DB2-8DF0-D430A8FC6582@nostrum.com> <5302351F.6050902@usdonovans.com> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026697DE@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209783450@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <53035690.1070702@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3A60@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <5303742C.50902@usdonovans.com> <6854BD31-1B9A-4F72-B987-E25B407EBD57@nostrum! .com> <530B7D62.1080700@usdonovans.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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On Feb 24, 2014, at 11:12 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

>> I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be =
_sent_ by reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for =
the realm's overload state. But there's no requirement that there be =
only one, just that if there are more than one they don't contradict =
each other.
> SRD> The reason for this requirement is to handle the likelihood that =
each reporting node of the new realm report type will have independent =
sequence numbers.  Thus, as long as all reporting nodes report all =
updates to the realm overload status, it should be sufficient for a =
reacting node to only listen to one of the reporting nodes when =
determining if the OLR is new.


Okay, does that imply an argument for actual timestamps? :-)=20

Or a way to make sure the timestamp is scoped to the reporting node?  Do =
we need to be unique across just time, or time and space?=


From nobody Mon Feb 24 10:19:38 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Steve, all,

I agree with Steve.

However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing =
(if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is replaced by new ho=
st OLR (per client).
Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new =
sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the =
contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OL=
R type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.

Let me know your opinions.
Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.

It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default behavior then it =
would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report =
to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this new feature =
is to allow a server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reactin=
g node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.

In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.

My proposal is the following:

- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.

- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).

- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:
  - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not act on=
 the OLR.
  - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must apply =
the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.   This implies t=
hat when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate whic=
h non supporting client originated the request.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.

Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this wording indep=
endent of the resolution of this issue.

Steve
On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

Is it implicit?



If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.



Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.



Regards,



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello Ulrich,



I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.



I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.



I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.



Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi MCruz,

there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.



If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.



Best regards

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello JJ and all,



As per email thread, the latest proposal is:

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."



An Ulrich comments on this:

"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."



Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?

Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi Mcruz and all



I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.

Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .



For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.



Best regards



Jacques







-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome=
 Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@i=
etf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello all,



Not sure we all have the same understanding here.

Let me try to explain my concerns.



The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.

Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:



a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.

Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.

But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.

Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."

But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.

How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:

- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1

- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).

- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?

In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.



b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.

With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.



Let me know your opinions please

Best regards

/MCruz







-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28

To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Steve,



please see inline.



Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Ulrich,



I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.



First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>





We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>



My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.

<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>

To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "s=
ingle-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  =
Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>



Steve

On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve, all,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
I agree with Steve.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I would like to =
share one concern. We need to avoid that existing (if any) host OLR (&#8220=
;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by new host OLR
 (per client).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host OLR (per client) wit=
h the new AVP requires that the server uses a new sequence number, but exis=
ting host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the contrary
 both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to achieve this,=
 it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (host per client),=
 instead of a new AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let me know your opinions=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Adding an AVP to indi=
cate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in the request is not ju=
st an optimization for agents.<br>
<br>
It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior the=
n it would be best to have the default,
 implicit, meaning of an overload report to be &quot;applies to all reactin=
g nodes&quot;.&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow a serve=
r to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting node when then gl=
obal reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
<br>
In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.<br>
<br>
My proposal is the following:<br>
<br>
- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.<br>
<br>
- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
<br>
- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not a=
ct on the OLR.<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must a=
pply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients. &nbsp; This=
 implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differen=
tiate which non supporting client originated
 the request.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.<br>
<br>
Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need something like this wording =
independent of the resolution of this issue.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Is it implicit? <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent =
will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of th=
is client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC)=
. I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-=
host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-val=
ue of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to=
 always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all t=
he clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to cl=
arify if this is what JJ got in mind.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but th=
e open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just mean=
t for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind=
 OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR fo=
r any client. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.o=
rg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi MCruz,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the repor=
ting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLR=
s from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% =
reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin fro=
m C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 r=
equesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% r=
eduction of traffic from C2 to R.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello JJ and all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>As per email thread, the latest proposal is:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs=
 to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the=
 request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot; <o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>An Ulrich comments on this:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role=
 of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, bu=
t also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reportin=
g node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the=
 role of a reacting node towards the server.&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? <o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi Mcruz and all<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the &quot=
;reporting&quot; node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and f=
or which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which=
 it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this =
case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Here I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavi=
or when&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR rece=
ived for one client for other clients&nbsp; .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>For me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. W=
e may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on=
 the baseline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Jacques <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lun=
di 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime=
@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Not sure we all have the same understanding here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Let me try to explain my concerns.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a serve=
r to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by &qu=
ot;Origin-Host&quot; in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in t=
he server answer shall be marked:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (=
and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by &quot;Origin-H=
ost&quot; in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D&quot;Origin-Host&quot;, the e=
xpected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting nod=
e, then the &quot;Origin-Host&quot; identifies final client, but not the re=
acting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about=
 agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs=
 to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the=
 request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR t=
o one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a=
 Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 &#43; S2) via Agent1. Let's cons=
ider following example:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers th=
is OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevan=
t for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calcu=
late aggregated Realm overload?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was=
 only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit informa=
tion, as in b) below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client (&quo=
t;Origin-Host&quot; in the request) from which traffic reduction shall appl=
y.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OL=
R shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by n=
ew AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Let me know your opinions please<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org<=
/a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>please see inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=
&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC support=
ing agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; =
This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&n=
bsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently m=
issing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the=
 request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Su=
bsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-s=
upporting client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents b=
eing the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could e=
asily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single tra=
nsaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss =
algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an iss=
ue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&=
gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent ev=
en for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate ove=
rload reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the repo=
rts that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence=
 of the &quot;single-client-only&quot; AVP would mean that the report appli=
es to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR ap=
plies to the Origin-Host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for ag=
ents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OL=
Rs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does n=
ot want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding =
to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre>Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Li=
onel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Now you seem to address two points:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying te=
xt for 5.5. as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of th=
e reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also=
 the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node=
 (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role =
of a reacting node towards the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here =
I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amou=
nt of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>1. ignore the 3GPP requirement<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introdu=
ce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>So far I understood that people favoured option 3.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>See also inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@=
nostrum.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a href=
=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#35: additional report types are proposed<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However=
, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a =
client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to th=
e origin-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client=
.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If =
there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the r=
eacting node from the server's perspective.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does n=
ot know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role=
 of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-h=
ost type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC =
support at the clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support=
 at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For=
 DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing t=
raffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes =
from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't =
have that option for non-DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/_gOIz5XgHQfJJJK2K_jorA1cCS0
Subject: [Dime] Ticket #27 - Behavior of agent acting on behalf of Client that does not support DOIC
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There has been no discussion of ticket #27.  I can't even find it on the
DIME list, so I'm copying it here to initiate discussion.

The proposal is for an agent to send a TOO-BUSY response when it
throttles a request from a non supporting client.  The behavior of the
agent in this case would be in the new section to be added to capture
agent behavior as proposed in issue #24 (and various other places).

Steve

-----


The specification is currently missing a definition of the behavior of
agents that are the reacting node for overload reports in the case that
the client does not support the DOIC extension.

We need to add wording that the agent will throttle messages from the
client by the percentage indicated by the reporting node. We need to
determine the error response that will be sent by the agent. Given that
the client does not support the extension, the error will need to be an
existing error -- most likely TOO-BUSY.


--------------020201040802090300040609
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">There has been no
      discussion of ticket #27.&nbsp; I can't even find it on the DIME list,
      so I'm copying it here to initiate discussion.<br>
      <br>
      The proposal is for an agent to send a TOO-BUSY response when it
      throttles a request from a non supporting client.&nbsp; The behavior of
      the agent in this case would be in the new section to be added to
      capture agent behavior as proposed in issue #24 (and various other
      places).<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
      -----<br>
      <br>
    </font><br>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
      charset=ISO-8859-1">
    <p>
      The specification is currently missing a definition of the
      behavior of agents that are the reacting node for overload reports
      in the case that the client does not support the DOIC extension.
    </p>
    <p>
      We need to add wording that the agent will throttle messages from
      the client by the percentage indicated by the reporting node. We
      need to determine the error response that will be sent by the
      agent. Given that the client does not support the extension, the
      error will need to be an existing error -- most likely TOO-BUSY.
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

--------------020201040802090300040609--


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/QsZVT3Ahb9p8h1Pn_-e18ZBDDHM
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hello again,

I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned=
 in related thread #56.

This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload miti=
gation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:

TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent implementatio=
ns to decide when and whether overload mitigation differentiation per clien=
t is used".



Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be =
considered by 3GPP applications when required.



Best regards

/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve, all,

I agree with Steve.

However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing =
(if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is replaced by new ho=
st OLR (per client).
Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new =
sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the =
contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OL=
R type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.

Let me know your opinions.
Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.

It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default behavior then it =
would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report =
to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this new feature =
is to allow a server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reactin=
g node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.

In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.

My proposal is the following:

- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.

- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).

- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:
  - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not act on=
 the OLR.
  - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must apply =
the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.   This implies t=
hat when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate whic=
h non supporting client originated the request.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.

Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this wording indep=
endent of the resolution of this issue.

Steve
On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

Is it implicit?



If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.



Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.



Regards,



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello Ulrich,



I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.



I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.



I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.



Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi MCruz,

there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.



If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.



Best regards

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello JJ and all,



As per email thread, the latest proposal is:

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."



An Ulrich comments on this:

"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."



Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?

Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi Mcruz and all



I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.

Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .



For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.



Best regards



Jacques







-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome=
 Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@i=
etf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello all,



Not sure we all have the same understanding here.

Let me try to explain my concerns.



The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.

Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:



a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.

Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.

But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.

Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."

But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.

How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:

- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1

- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).

- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?

In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.



b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.

With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.



Let me know your opinions please

Best regards

/MCruz







-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28

To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Steve,



please see inline.



Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Ulrich,



I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.



First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>





We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>



My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.

<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>

To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "s=
ingle-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  =
Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>



Steve

On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">Hello=
 again,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">I for=
got to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned in r=
elated thread #56.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">This =
is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload mitigatio=
n differentiation per client. But this is a server option:<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states &quot;It=
 may be up to the server/agent implementations to decide when and whether o=
verload mitigation differentiation per client is used&quot;.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060">Therefore, we can even consider this=
 new OLR out of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP applications when=
 required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&=
quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060">/MCruz</span><span style=3D"color:#1=
F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve, all,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
I agree with Steve.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I would like to =
share one concern. We need to avoid that existing (if any) host OLR (&#8220=
;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by new host OLR
 (per client).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host OLR (per client) wit=
h the new AVP requires that the server uses a new sequence number, but exis=
ting host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the contrary
 both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to achieve this,=
 it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (host per client),=
 instead of a new AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let me know your opinions=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Adding an AVP to indi=
cate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in the request is not ju=
st an optimization for agents.<br>
<br>
It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior the=
n it would be best to have the default,
 implicit, meaning of an overload report to be &quot;applies to all reactin=
g nodes&quot;.&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow a serve=
r to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting node when then gl=
obal reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
<br>
In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.<br>
<br>
My proposal is the following:<br>
<br>
- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.<br>
<br>
- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
<br>
- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not a=
ct on the OLR.<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must a=
pply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients. &nbsp; This=
 implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differen=
tiate which non supporting client originated
 the request.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.<br>
<br>
Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need something like this wording =
independent of the resolution of this issue.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Is it implicit? <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent =
will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of th=
is client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC)=
. I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-=
host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-val=
ue of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to=
 always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all t=
he clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to cl=
arify if this is what JJ got in mind.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but th=
e open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just mean=
t for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind=
 OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR fo=
r any client. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.o=
rg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi MCruz,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the repor=
ting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLR=
s from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% =
reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin fro=
m C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 r=
equesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% r=
eduction of traffic from C2 to R.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello JJ and all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>As per email thread, the latest proposal is:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs=
 to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the=
 request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot; <o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>An Ulrich comments on this:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role=
 of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, bu=
t also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reportin=
g node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the=
 role of a reacting node towards the server.&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? <o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi Mcruz and all<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the &quot=
;reporting&quot; node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and f=
or which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which=
 it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this =
case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Here I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavi=
or when&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR rece=
ived for one client for other clients&nbsp; .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>For me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. W=
e may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on=
 the baseline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Jacques <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lun=
di 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime=
@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Not sure we all have the same understanding here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Let me try to explain my concerns.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a serve=
r to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by &qu=
ot;Origin-Host&quot; in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in t=
he server answer shall be marked:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (=
and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by &quot;Origin-H=
ost&quot; in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D&quot;Origin-Host&quot;, the e=
xpected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting nod=
e, then the &quot;Origin-Host&quot; identifies final client, but not the re=
acting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about=
 agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs=
 to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the=
 request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR t=
o one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a=
 Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 &#43; S2) via Agent1. Let's cons=
ider following example:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers th=
is OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevan=
t for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calcu=
late aggregated Realm overload?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was=
 only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit informa=
tion, as in b) below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client (&quo=
t;Origin-Host&quot; in the request) from which traffic reduction shall appl=
y.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OL=
R shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by n=
ew AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Let me know your opinions please<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org<=
/a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>please see inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=
&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC support=
ing agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; =
This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&n=
bsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently m=
issing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the=
 request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Su=
bsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-s=
upporting client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents b=
eing the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could e=
asily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single tra=
nsaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss =
algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an iss=
ue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&=
gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent ev=
en for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate ove=
rload reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the repo=
rts that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence=
 of the &quot;single-client-only&quot; AVP would mean that the report appli=
es to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR ap=
plies to the Origin-Host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for ag=
ents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OL=
Rs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does n=
ot want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding =
to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre>Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Li=
onel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Now you seem to address two points:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying te=
xt for 5.5. as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of th=
e reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also=
 the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node=
 (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role =
of a reacting node towards the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here =
I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amou=
nt of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>1. ignore the 3GPP requirement<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introdu=
ce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>So far I understood that people favoured option 3.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>See also inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@=
nostrum.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a href=
=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#35: additional report types are proposed<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However=
, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a =
client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to th=
e origin-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client=
.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If =
there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the r=
eacting node from the server's perspective.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does n=
ot know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role=
 of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-h=
ost type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC =
support at the clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support=
 at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For=
 DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing t=
raffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes =
from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't =
have that option for non-DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Maria Cruz,

To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload
logic required.  To this end, it would be better to have this as part of
the base specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will
want the same behavior.

Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an
implementation detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes respond
to per Origin-Host reports should be specified in a common way.

Steve

On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
> Hello again,
>
>  
>
> I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already
> mentioned in related thread #56.
>
>  
>
> This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload
> mitigation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:
>
> TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent
> implementations to decide when and whether overload mitigation
> differentiation per client is used".
>
>  
>
> Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base draft,
> and be considered by 3GPP applications when required.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Maria Cruz
> Bartolome
> *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Steve, all,
>
>
> I agree with Steve.
>
>  
>
> However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that
> existing (if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is
> replaced by new host OLR (per client).
>
> Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a
> new sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be
> replaced, on the contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per
> client) should remain.
>
> In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a
> dedicated OLR type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.
>
>  
>
> Let me know your opinions.
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Donovan
> *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the
> Origin-Host in the request is not just an optimization for agents.
>
> It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a
> reporting node (server) would be to report a single overload value to
> all reacting nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default
> behavior then it would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning
> of an overload report to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real
> value of this new feature is to allow a server to further throttle a
> specific, overly active, reacting node when then global reduction
> percentage doesn't do the job.
>
> In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single
> global reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload
> report to each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on
> agents when it adds no value.
>
> My proposal is the following:
>
> - Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to
> overload reports that indicate when an overload report applies to a
> specific reacting node.
>
> - Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting
> nodes (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).
>
> - Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the
> overload report contents are different from the global overload report.
>
> - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP
> must do the following:
>   - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not
> act on the OLR.
>   - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must
> apply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.  
> This implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not
> differentiate which non supporting client originated the request.
>
> - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for
> a transaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR
> to that single client.
>
> Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing
> from the -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this
> wording independent of the resolution of this issue.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>     Is it implicit? 
>
>      
>
>     If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.
>
>      
>
>     Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.
>
>      
>
>     Regards,
>
>      
>
>     Lionel
>
>      
>
>     -----Message d'origine-----
>
>     De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>     Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 14:27
>
>     À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Hello Ulrich,
>
>      
>
>     I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.
>
>      
>
>     I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. 
>
>      
>
>     I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.
>
>      
>
>     Best regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] 
>
>     Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
>
>     To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Hi MCruz,
>
>     there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.
>
>      
>
>     If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.
>
>      
>
>     Best regards
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>     Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
>
>     To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Hello JJ and all,
>
>      
>
>     As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
>
>     "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." 
>
>      
>
>     An Ulrich comments on this:
>
>     "This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."
>
>      
>
>     Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? 
>
>     Best regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
>
>     Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
>
>     To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Hi Mcruz and all
>
>      
>
>     I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. 
>
>     Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients  .
>
>      
>
>     For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.
>
>      
>
>     Best regards
>
>      
>
>     Jacques 
>
>      
>
>        
>
>      
>
>     -----Message d'origine-----
>
>     De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 13:21 À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Hello all,
>
>      
>
>     Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
>
>     Let me try to explain my concerns.
>
>      
>
>     The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
>
>     Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:
>
>      
>
>     a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
>
>     Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.
>
>     But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
>
>     Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):
>
>     "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
>
>     But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
>
>     How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:
>
>     - C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
>
>     - S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
>
>     - Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?
>
>     In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.
>
>      
>
>     b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
>
>     With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.
>
>      
>
>     Let me know your opinions please
>
>     Best regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>     Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
>
>     To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Steve,
>
>      
>
>     please see inline.
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>
>     Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
>
>     To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich,
>
>      
>
>     I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.  
>
>      
>
>     First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.
>
>     <Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
>
>     <Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>
>
>      
>
>     My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.
>
>     <Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
>
>     To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.
>
>     <Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.</Ulrich>     
>
>      
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>     Ben,
>
>      
>
>     the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). 
>
>     Now you seem to address two points:
>
>     a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
>
>     To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:
>
>      
>
>     When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. 
>
>      
>
>     This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.
>
>      
>
>     b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
>
>     1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
>
>     2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.
>
>      
>
>     So far I understood that people favoured option 3.
>
>      
>
>     See also inline.
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
>
>     Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
>
>     To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>     Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>      
>
>     #35: additional report types are proposed
>
>      
>
>     Dear all,
>
>      
>
>     I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
>
>      
>
>     When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.
>
>      
>
>     I do not agree.
>
>      
>
>     You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
>
>     <Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.
>
>     <Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
>
>     <Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client</Ulrich>
>
>      
>
>      Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
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>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Maria Cruz,<br>
      <br>
      To the degree possible we should minimize the per application
      overload logic required.&nbsp; To this end, it would be better to have
      this as part of the base specification, as it is likely that
      most/all applications will want the same behavior.<br>
      <br>
      Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an
      implementation detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How reacting nodes
      respond to per Origin-Host reports should be specified in a common
      way.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784B72@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">Hello again,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">I forgot to mention
            something else in this thread, that I already mentioned in
            related thread #56.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">This is all in order
            to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload mitigation
            differentiation per client. But this is a server option:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060">TR 29809 ch.
            6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent
            implementations to decide when and whether overload
            mitigation differentiation per client is used".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060">Therefore, we
            can even consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be
            considered by 3GPP applications when required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#002060">/MCruz</span><span
            style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,
            all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
            I agree with Steve.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However,
            I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that
            existing (if any) host OLR (&#8220;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting
            node is replaced by new host OLR (per client).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host
            OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server
            uses a new sequence number, but existing host OLR (all)
            shall not be replaced, on the contrary both Host OLR (all)
            and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
            order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a
            dedicated OLR type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let
            me know your opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Adding an AVP
          to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in
          the request is not just an optimization for agents.<br>
          <br>
          It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior
          of a reporting node (server) would be to report a single
          overload value to all reacting nodes, be they clients or
          agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior then it would be best
          to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report
          to be "applies to all reacting nodes".&nbsp; The real value of this
          new feature is to allow a server to further throttle a
          specific, overly active, reacting node when then global
          reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
          <br>
          In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a
          single global reduction percentage then requiring agents to
          bind an overload report to each non supporting clients pushes
          a lot of extra work on agents when it adds no value.<br>
          <br>
          My proposal is the following:<br>
          <br>
          - Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???)
          to overload reports that indicate when an overload report
          applies to a specific reacting node.<br>
          <br>
          - Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all
          reacting nodes (clients and agents acting on behalf of
          non-DOIC clients).<br>
          <br>
          - Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if
          the overload report contents are different from the global
          overload report.<br>
          <br>
          - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the
          Single-Node AVP must do the following:<br>
          &nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent
          must not act on the OLR.<br>
          &nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the
          agent must apply the OLR to traffic from the set of non
          supporting clients. &nbsp; This implies that when making throttling
          decisions, the agent does not differentiate which non
          supporting client originated the request.<br>
          <br>
          - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node
          AVP for a transaction originated by a non supporting client
          must bind that OLR to that single client.<br>
          <br>
          Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is
          missing from the -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need
          something like this wording independent of the resolution of
          this issue.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
              lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>Is it implicit? <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 14:27<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Hello Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Hi MCruz,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Hello JJ and all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>As per email thread, the latest proposal is:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>An Ulrich comments on this:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Hi Mcruz and all<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Here I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavior when&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients&nbsp; .<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>For me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Jacques <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:21 &Agrave;&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Hello all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Not sure we all have the same understanding here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Let me try to explain my concerns.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Let me know your opinions please<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: ext Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>please see inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Now you seem to address two points:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>1. ignore the 3GPP requirement<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>So far I understood that people favoured option 3.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>See also inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: ext Ben Campbell [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>#35: additional report types are proposed<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I do not agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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          <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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From nobody Mon Feb 24 10:51:44 2014
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Steve,

See some comments below please.
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type

#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type

 I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will
 be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual
 name of the report.

 The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
 reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm
 routed requests sent to the reporting node.

 This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling
 traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that
 Diameter application.
[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overl=
oad.

 Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and
 all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
 application.

 When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the
 number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The
 server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.

 Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to
 handle new sessions.

 Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the
 network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the
 throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
 throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded
 servers.

 The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by
 DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers
 able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of
 requests routed to the overloaded server.

 Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the
 answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report
 from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
 path) or by an agent and a client.

 Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
 throttling the requested percentage.

--=20
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  srdonovan@usdonovans.com           |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli    |    Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document       |   Keywords:
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/57>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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I really don't understand but it is not the first time :)

What about the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent maint=
aining overload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?
So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavio=
r that was implicit if you consider the comments above.

For me, the option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a spec=
ific client. So over two different DOIC association with the same server/re=
porting node, you can have two different OLRs.
But it does not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Maria Cruz,

To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.  To this end, it would be better to have this as part of the ba=
se specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want the =
same behavior.

Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes respond to per Origin-Hos=
t reports should be specified in a common way.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello again,

I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned=
 in related thread #56.

This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload miti=
gation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:

TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent implementatio=
ns to decide when and whether overload mitigation differentiation per clien=
t is used".



Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be =
considered by 3GPP applications when required.



Best regards

/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve, all,

I agree with Steve.

However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing =
(if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is replaced by new ho=
st OLR (per client).
Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new =
sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the =
contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OL=
R type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.

Let me know your opinions.
Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.

It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default behavior then it =
would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report =
to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this new feature =
is to allow a server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reactin=
g node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.

In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.

My proposal is the following:

- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.

- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).

- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:
  - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not act on=
 the OLR.
  - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must apply =
the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.   This implies t=
hat when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate whic=
h non supporting client originated the request.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.

Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this wording indep=
endent of the resolution of this issue.

Steve
On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

Is it implicit?



If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.



Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.



Regards,



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello Ulrich,



I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.



I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.



I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.



Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi MCruz,

there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.



If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.



Best regards

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello JJ and all,



As per email thread, the latest proposal is:

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."



An Ulrich comments on this:

"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."



Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?

Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi Mcruz and all



I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.

Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .



For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.



Best regards



Jacques







-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome=
 Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@i=
etf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello all,



Not sure we all have the same understanding here.

Let me try to explain my concerns.



The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.

Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:



a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.

Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.

But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.

Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."

But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.

How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:

- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1

- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).

- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?

In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.



b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.

With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.



Let me know your opinions please

Best regards

/MCruz







-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28

To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Steve,



please see inline.



Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Ulrich,



I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.



First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>





We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>



My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.

<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>

To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "s=
ingle-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  =
Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>



Steve

On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What about=
 the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent maintaining ove=
rload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for me,=
 the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavior that was=
 implicit if you consider the comments above.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For me, th=
e option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a specific clien=
t. So over two different DOIC association with the same server/reporting
 node, you can have two different OLRs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But it doe=
s not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.&nbsp; To this end, it would be better to have this as part of t=
he base specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want=
 the same behavior.<br>
<br>
Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How reacting nodes respond to per Origi=
n-Host reports should be specified in a common way.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">Hello=
 again,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">I for=
got to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned in r=
elated thread #56.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">This =
is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload mitigatio=
n differentiation per client. But this is a server option:</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states &quot;It may be up to=
 the server/agent implementations to decide when and whether overload mitig=
ation differentiation per client is used&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out =
of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP applications when required.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Best regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve, all,</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
I agree with Steve.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I would like to =
share one concern. We need to avoid that existing (if any) host OLR (&#8220=
;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by new host OLR
 (per client).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host OLR (per client) wit=
h the new AVP requires that the server uses a new sequence number, but exis=
ting host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the contrary
 both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to achieve this,=
 it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (host per client),=
 instead of a new AVP.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let me know your opinions=
.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Adding an AVP to indi=
cate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in the request is not ju=
st an optimization for agents.<br>
<br>
It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior the=
n it would be best to have the default,
 implicit, meaning of an overload report to be &quot;applies to all reactin=
g nodes&quot;.&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow a serve=
r to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting node when then gl=
obal reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
<br>
In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.<br>
<br>
My proposal is the following:<br>
<br>
- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.<br>
<br>
- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
<br>
- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not a=
ct on the OLR.<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must a=
pply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients. &nbsp; This=
 implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differen=
tiate which non supporting client originated
 the request.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.<br>
<br>
Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need something like this wording =
independent of the resolution of this issue.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Is it implicit? <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent =
will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of th=
is client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC)=
. I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-=
host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-val=
ue of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to=
 always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all t=
he clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to cl=
arify if this is what JJ got in mind.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but th=
e open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just mean=
t for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind=
 OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR fo=
r any client. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.o=
rg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi MCruz,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the repor=
ting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLR=
s from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% =
reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin fro=
m C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 r=
equesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% r=
eduction of traffic from C2 to R.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello JJ and all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As per email thread, the latest proposal is:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs=
 to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the=
 request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot; <o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>An Ulrich comments on this:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role=
 of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, bu=
t also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reportin=
g node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the=
 role of a reacting node towards the server.&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? <o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi Mcruz and all<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the &quot=
;reporting&quot; node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and f=
or which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which=
 it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this =
case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Here I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavi=
or when&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR rece=
ived for one client for other clients&nbsp; .<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>For me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. W=
e may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on=
 the baseline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Jacques <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lun=
di 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime=
@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Not sure we all have the same understanding here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Let me try to explain my concerns.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a serve=
r to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by &qu=
ot;Origin-Host&quot; in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in t=
he server answer shall be marked:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (=
and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by &quot;Origin-H=
ost&quot; in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D&quot;Origin-Host&quot;, the e=
xpected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting nod=
e, then the &quot;Origin-Host&quot; identifies final client, but not the re=
acting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about=
 agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs=
 to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the=
 request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR t=
o one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a=
 Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 &#43; S2) via Agent1. Let's cons=
ider following example:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers th=
is OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevan=
t for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calcu=
late aggregated Realm overload?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was=
 only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit informa=
tion, as in b) below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client (&quo=
t;Origin-Host&quot; in the request) from which traffic reduction shall appl=
y.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OL=
R shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by n=
ew AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Let me know your opinions please<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org<=
/a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>please see inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.=
&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC support=
ing agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; =
This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&n=
bsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently m=
issing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the=
 request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Su=
bsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-s=
upporting client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents b=
eing the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could e=
asily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single tra=
nsaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss =
algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an iss=
ue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&=
gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent ev=
en for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate ove=
rload reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the repo=
rts that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence=
 of the &quot;single-client-only&quot; AVP would mean that the report appli=
es to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR ap=
plies to the Origin-Host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for ag=
ents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OL=
Rs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does n=
ot want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding =
to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre>Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Li=
onel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Now you seem to address two points:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying te=
xt for 5.5. as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of th=
e reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also=
 the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node=
 (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role =
of a reacting node towards the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here =
I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amou=
nt of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>1. ignore the 3GPP requirement<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introdu=
ce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>So far I understood that people favoured option 3.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>See also inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@=
nostrum.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a href=
=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#35: additional report types are proposed<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However=
, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a =
client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to th=
e origin-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I do not agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client=
.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If =
there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the r=
eacting node from the server's perspective.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does n=
ot know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role=
 of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-h=
ost type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC =
support at the clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support=
 at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For=
 DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing t=
raffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes =
from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't =
have that option for non-DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
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<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Hello,

I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different repo=
rts (so called realm-routed and just realm).
Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

I propose the following resolution for issue 23:


Proposal - Change the name of realm report.

Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.

Proposal - Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request" reports to indic=
ate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm when there is no d=
estination-host AVP in the request.  Specifically, section 4.6 requires upd=
ating.

There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.

Regards,

Steve

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I do =
not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different reports (=
so called realm-routed and just realm).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I propose the following resolution for issue 23:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Proposal &#8211; Change the name of realm report. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><br>
Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot=
;serif&quot;"><br>
Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221=
; reports to indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm =
when there is no destination-host AVP in the request.&nbsp; Specifically, s=
ection 4.6 requires updating.<br>
<br>
There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed by ticket number 55.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve</span> <span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;s=
erif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Lionel,

The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload
report per client or it is sending a global overload report that applies
to all clients. 

I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to
have a single overload reduction value for the application and that that
overload reduction value will apply to all clients.  If this is the case
then there is little benefit (and significant overhead) to requiring an
agent to maintain state per non-supporting client.

I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to
have a different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.  If this
is the case then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies
to the origin-host in the request and only then should agents be
required to maintain state for the non-supporting client.

Steve

On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>
> I really don't understand but it is not the first time J
>
>  
>
> What about the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent
> maintaining overload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?
>
> So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent
> behavior that was implicit if you consider the comments above.
>
>  
>
> For me, the option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a
> specific client. So over two different DOIC association with the same
> server/reporting node, you can have two different OLRs.
>
> But it does not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.
>
>  
>
> Lionel
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Steve Donovan
> *Envoyé :* lundi 24 février 2014 19:50
> *À :* dime@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Maria Cruz,
>
> To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload
> logic required.  To this end, it would be better to have this as part
> of the base specification, as it is likely that most/all applications
> will want the same behavior.
>
> Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an
> implementation detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes
> respond to per Origin-Host reports should be specified in a common way.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>     Hello again,
>
>      
>
>     I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already
>     mentioned in related thread #56.
>
>      
>
>     This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on
>     overload mitigation differentiation per client. But this is a
>     server option:
>
>     TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent
>     implementations to decide when and whether overload mitigation
>     differentiation per client is used".
>
>      
>
>     Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base
>     draft, and be considered by 3GPP applications when required.
>
>      
>
>     Best regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Maria
>     Cruz Bartolome
>     *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
>     *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Steve, all,
>
>
>     I agree with Steve.
>
>      
>
>     However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that
>     existing (if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is
>     replaced by new host OLR (per client).
>
>     Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server
>     uses a new sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not
>     be replaced, on the contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR
>     (per client) should remain.
>
>     In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a
>     dedicated OLR type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.
>
>      
>
>     Let me know your opinions.
>
>     Best regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve
>     Donovan
>     *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
>     *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the
>     Origin-Host in the request is not just an optimization for agents.
>
>     It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a
>     reporting node (server) would be to report a single overload value
>     to all reacting nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the
>     default behavior then it would be best to have the default,
>     implicit, meaning of an overload report to be "applies to all
>     reacting nodes".  The real value of this new feature is to allow a
>     server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting
>     node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.
>
>     In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a
>     single global reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind
>     an overload report to each non supporting clients pushes a lot of
>     extra work on agents when it adds no value.
>
>     My proposal is the following:
>
>     - Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to
>     overload reports that indicate when an overload report applies to
>     a specific reacting node.
>
>     - Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all
>     reacting nodes (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC
>     clients).
>
>     - Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the
>     overload report contents are different from the global overload
>     report.
>
>     - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node
>     AVP must do the following:
>       - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must
>     not act on the OLR.
>       - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent
>     must apply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting
>     clients.   This implies that when making throttling decisions, the
>     agent does not differentiate which non supporting client
>     originated the request.
>
>     - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP
>     for a transaction originated by a non supporting client must bind
>     that OLR to that single client.
>
>     Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is
>     missing from the -01 version of the draft.  We will need something
>     like this wording independent of the resolution of this issue.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
>     <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>         Is it implicit? 
>
>          
>
>         If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.
>
>          
>
>         Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.
>
>          
>
>         Regards,
>
>          
>
>         Lionel
>
>          
>
>         -----Message d'origine-----
>
>         De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>         Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 14:27
>
>         À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Hello Ulrich,
>
>          
>
>         I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.
>
>          
>
>         I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. 
>
>          
>
>         I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.
>
>          
>
>         Best regards
>
>         /MCruz
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] 
>
>         Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
>
>         To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Hi MCruz,
>
>         there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.
>
>          
>
>         If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.
>
>          
>
>         Best regards
>
>         Ulrich
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>         Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
>
>         To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Hello JJ and all,
>
>          
>
>         As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
>
>         "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." 
>
>          
>
>         An Ulrich comments on this:
>
>         "This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."
>
>          
>
>         Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? 
>
>         Best regards
>
>         /MCruz
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
>
>         Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
>
>         To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Hi Mcruz and all
>
>          
>
>         I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. 
>
>         Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients  .
>
>          
>
>         For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.
>
>          
>
>         Best regards
>
>          
>
>         Jacques 
>
>          
>
>            
>
>          
>
>         -----Message d'origine-----
>
>         De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 13:21 À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Hello all,
>
>          
>
>         Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
>
>         Let me try to explain my concerns.
>
>          
>
>         The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
>
>         Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:
>
>          
>
>         a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
>
>         Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.
>
>         But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
>
>         Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):
>
>         "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
>
>         But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
>
>         How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:
>
>         - C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
>
>         - S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
>
>         - Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?
>
>         In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.
>
>          
>
>         b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
>
>         With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.
>
>          
>
>         Let me know your opinions please
>
>         Best regards
>
>         /MCruz
>
>          
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>         Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
>
>         To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Steve,
>
>          
>
>         please see inline.
>
>          
>
>         Ulrich
>
>          
>
>         From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>
>         Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
>
>         To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Ulrich,
>
>          
>
>         I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.  
>
>          
>
>         First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.
>
>         <Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
>
>         <Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>
>
>          
>
>         My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.
>
>         <Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
>
>         To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.
>
>         <Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.</Ulrich>     
>
>          
>
>         Steve
>
>         On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>         Ben,
>
>          
>
>         the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). 
>
>         Now you seem to address two points:
>
>         a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
>
>         To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:
>
>          
>
>         When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. 
>
>          
>
>         This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.
>
>          
>
>         b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
>
>         1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
>
>         2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.
>
>          
>
>         So far I understood that people favoured option 3.
>
>          
>
>         See also inline.
>
>          
>
>         Ulrich
>
>          
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
>
>         Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
>
>         To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>         Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>          
>
>         #35: additional report types are proposed
>
>          
>
>         Dear all,
>
>          
>
>         I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
>
>          
>
>         When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.
>
>          
>
>         I do not agree.
>
>          
>
>         You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
>
>         <Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.
>
>         <Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
>
>         <Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client</Ulrich>
>
>          
>
>          Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.
>
>          
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         DiME mailing list
>
>         DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         DiME mailing list
>
>         DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>          
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         DiME mailing list
>
>         DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>          
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         DiME mailing list
>
>         DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>          
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         DiME mailing list
>
>         DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>          
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         DiME mailing list
>
>         DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Lionel,<br>
      <br>
      The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload
      report per client or it is sending a global overload report that
      applies to all clients.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will
      be to have a single overload reduction value for the application
      and that that overload reduction value will apply to all clients.&nbsp;
      If this is the case then there is little benefit (and significant
      overhead) to requiring an agent to maintain state per
      non-supporting client.<br>
      <br>
      I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able
      to have a different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.&nbsp;
      If this is the case then the reporting node should indicate that
      it only applies to the origin-host in the request and only then
      should agents be required to maintain state for the non-supporting
      client.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/14 12:57 PM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:16141_1393268235_530B960B_16141_14014_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4BC596@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I really don't understand but it is not the
            first time
          </span><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">What about the DOIC association? What about my
            assumption about agent maintaining overload control state
            for non-DOIC enabled client?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a
            clarification on the agent behavior that was implicit if you
            consider the comments above.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">For me, the option for the server is only to
            send a specific OLR for a specific client. So over two
            different DOIC association with the same server/reporting
            node, you can have two different OLRs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">But it does not change the way the OLR is
            handled by reacting nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Lionel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 19:50<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
          <br>
          To the degree possible we should minimize the per application
          overload logic required.&nbsp; To this end, it would be better to
          have this as part of the base specification, as it is likely
          that most/all applications will want the same behavior.<br>
          <br>
          Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an
          implementation detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How reacting
          nodes respond to per Origin-Host reports should be specified
          in a common way.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome
            wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">Hello again,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">I forgot to mention
              something else in this thread, that I already mentioned in
              related thread #56.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">This is all in
              order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload
              mitigation differentiation per client. But this is a
              server option:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be
            up to the server/agent implementations to decide when and
            whether overload mitigation differentiation per client is
            used".<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Therefore, we can even consider this
            new OLR out of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP
            applications when required.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">Best regards<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoPlainText">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,
              all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
              I agree with Steve.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However,
              I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that
              existing (if any) host OLR (&#8220;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting
              node is replaced by new host OLR (per client).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host
              OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server
              uses a new sequence number, but existing host OLR (all)
              shall not be replaced, on the contrary both Host OLR (all)
              and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In
              order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use
              a dedicated OLR type (host per client), instead of a new
              AVP.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let
              me know your opinions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
              regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Adding an
            AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the
            Origin-Host in the request is not just an optimization for
            agents.<br>
            <br>
            It had been my assumption all along that the default
            behavior of a reporting node (server) would be to report a
            single overload value to all reacting nodes, be they clients
            or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior then it would be
            best to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload
            report to be "applies to all reacting nodes".&nbsp; The real
            value of this new feature is to allow a server to further
            throttle a specific, overly active, reacting node when then
            global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
            <br>
            In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have
            a single global reduction percentage then requiring agents
            to bind an overload report to each non supporting clients
            pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it adds no value.<br>
            <br>
            My proposal is the following:<br>
            <br>
            - Add an optional AVP (call it something like
            Single-Node???) to overload reports that indicate when an
            overload report applies to a specific reacting node.<br>
            <br>
            - Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to
            all reacting nodes (clients and agents acting on behalf of
            non-DOIC clients).<br>
            <br>
            - Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if
            the overload report contents are different from the global
            overload report.<br>
            <br>
            - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the
            Single-Node AVP must do the following:<br>
            &nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent
            must not act on the OLR.<br>
            &nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the
            agent must apply the OLR to traffic from the set of non
            supporting clients. &nbsp; This implies that when making
            throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate which
            non supporting client originated the request.<br>
            <br>
            - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the
            Single-Node AVP for a transaction originated by a non
            supporting client must bind that OLR to that single client.<br>
            <br>
            Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is
            missing from the -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need
            something like this wording independent of the resolution of
            this issue.<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Is it implicit? <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 14:27<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Hello Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Hi MCruz,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Hello JJ and all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>As per email thread, the latest proposal is:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>An Ulrich comments on this:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Hi Mcruz and all<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>I think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Here I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavior when&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients&nbsp; .<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>For me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Jacques <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:21 &Agrave;&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Hello all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Not sure we all have the same understanding here.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Let me try to explain my concerns.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Let me know your opinions please<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Best regards<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: ext Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>please see inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Now you seem to address two points:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>1. ignore the 3GPP requirement<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>So far I understood that people favoured option 3.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>See also inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: ext Ben Campbell [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>#35: additional report types are proposed<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>I do not agree.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
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      </div>
      <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Maria Cruz,

Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding of
the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try
to make Ulrich happy :-) ).

My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the
server does not want to receive new sessions. 

Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent
(or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that
the network need to handle fewer new sessions.

I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can
generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of
servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.

Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based
applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based
applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.

Everyone, which definition applies?

Steve

On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Steve,
>
> See some comments below please.
> /MCruz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
> To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>
> #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>
>  I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will
>  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual
>  name of the report.
>
>  The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
>  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm
>  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>
>  This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling
>  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that
>  Diameter application.
> [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.
>
>  Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and
>  all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>  application.
>
>  When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the
>  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The
>  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
> [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
>
>  Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to
>  handle new sessions.
>
>  Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the
>  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the
>  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded
>  servers.
>
>  The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by
>  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers
>  able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of
>  requests routed to the overloaded server.
>
>  Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the
>  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report
>  from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
>  path) or by an agent and a client.
>
>  Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>  throttling the requested percentage.
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Maria Cruz,<br>
      <br>
      Thanks for the comments.&nbsp; We obviously have a different
      understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new
      attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).<br>
      <br>
      My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when
      the server does not want to receive new sessions.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an
      agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to
      indicate that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.<br>
      <br>
      I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent
      can generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the
      status of servers and their ability to handle new Diameter
      sessions.<br>
      <br>
      Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based
      applications.&nbsp; This could also be applied to pseudo session based
      applications and applications that always rely on realm routed
      requests.<br>
      <br>
      Everyone, which definition applies?<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784BB3@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Steve,

See some comments below please.
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type

#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type

 I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will
 be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual
 name of the report.

 The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
 reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm
 routed requests sent to the reporting node.

 This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling
 traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that
 Diameter application.
[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.

 Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and
 all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
 application.

 When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the
 number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The
 server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.

 Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to
 handle new sessions.

 Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the
 network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the
 throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
 throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded
 servers.

 The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by
 DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers
 able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of
 requests routed to the overloaded server.

 Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the
 answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report
 from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
 path) or by an agent and a client.

 Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
 throttling the requested percentage.

</pre>
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Maria Cruz,

I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the
ability to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic
sent to a realm.  There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect.

The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the
resolution of the per client host report discussion).

- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.  The host is
indicated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the
report.  Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a
front-end to a group of servers.

- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm
without a destination-host AVP in the request message.  Can be generated
by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.

- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent
of the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request
message.  Can be generated by a server or an agent.  The method for
determining the realm state is out of scope for the DOIC document.

Steve

On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>  
>
> I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different
> reports (so called realm-routed and just realm).
>
> Regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Donovan
> *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>  
>
> I propose the following resolution for issue 23:
>
>
> Proposal -- Change the name of realm report.  
>
>
> Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.
>
>
> Proposal -- Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request" reports to
> indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm when
> there is no destination-host AVP in the request.  Specifically,
> section 4.6 requires updating.
>
> There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all
> transactions to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Maria Cruz,<br>
      <br>
      I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to
      have the ability to have a realm report that control the total
      amount of traffic sent to a realm.&nbsp; There is certainly an IETF DOC
      requirement to this effect.<br>
      <br>
      The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on
      the resolution of the per client host report discussion).<br>
      <br>
      - Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.&nbsp; The host is
      indicated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying
      the report.&nbsp; Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as
      a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
      <br>
      - Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a
      realm without a destination-host AVP in the request message.&nbsp; Can
      be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a
      group of servers.<br>
      <br>
      - Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm,
      independent of the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP
      in the request message.&nbsp; Can be generated by a server or an
      agent.&nbsp; The method for determining the realm state is out of scope
      for the DOIC document.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784BED@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I do not think we
            have agreed so far on the need to have two different reports
            (so called realm-routed and just realm).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I propose the following resolution for
          issue 23:<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Proposal
          &#8211; Change the name of realm report. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
          Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
            Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221;
            reports to indicate that they apply only to requests
            targeted to a realm when there is no destination-host AVP in
            the request.&nbsp; Specifically, section 4.6 requires updating.<br>
            <br>
            There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle
            all transactions to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed by ticket
            number 55.<br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            <br>
            Steve</span> <span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#29 proposed conclusion
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I agree.

I also think that we agreed that the lifetime of the
OC-Supported-Features AVP is a single transaction and that the
OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in all requests originated by
a Diameter node supporting DOIC.

Steve

On 2/20/14 4:31 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> I concur with removing the sequence number from OC-Supported-Features.
>
> On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:44 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> #29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
>>  
>> Dear all,
>>  
>> I have received comments from Lionel, Jouni and Steve;
>> I understand that Lionel and myself support removal of OC-Sequence-Number AVP from OC-Supported-Features AVP while Jouni has no strong view.  I’m not sure whether Steve is convinced by the response given to his comments.
>>  
>> In summary I dare to propose that we conclude in favour of removing OC-Sequence-Number from OC-Supported-Features.
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I agree.<br>
      <br>
      I also think that we agreed that the lifetime of the
      OC-Supported-Features AVP is a single transaction and that the
      OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in all requests
      originated by a Diameter node supporting DOIC.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/20/14 4:31 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:32C8E469-48AE-4336-AF92-F6EB2B12EDA4@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I concur with removing the sequence number from OC-Supported-Features.

On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:44 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">#29: OC-Sequence-Number in OC-Supported-Features
 
Dear all,
 
I have received comments from Lionel, Jouni and Steve;
I understand that Lionel and myself support removal of OC-Sequence-Number AVP from OC-Supported-Features AVP while Jouni has no strong view.  I’m not sure whether Steve is convinced by the response given to his comments.
 
In summary I dare to propose that we conclude in favour of removing OC-Sequence-Number from OC-Supported-Features.
 
Ulrich
 
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I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:

1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of
overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.

this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the
reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate
number of requests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic
sent.

There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state
about traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we choose,
leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms
to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed
by Ulrich.

2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features
AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload
supported in the network and thus take other measures to protect the
Diameter network.  For example, I can envision a client implementation
that adapts to the knowledge of whether servers support overload.  In
the case that the server does support overload the client can send
unlimited traffic to the server, up to the point that the server sends
an OLR.  If the client determines that the server does not support
overload then it might have a configured maximum rate that it will send
to the server.

My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers
because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead
to better implementation client implementations.

Steve

On 2/19/14 6:37 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Hi Jouni,
>
> thank you for your reply, and sorry for not having correctly summarized the status with regard to dependencies between OC-OLR AVP and OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer message.
>
> I would like to further discuss this aspect.
> My understanding is: as long as only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO (0x0000000000000001) is supported, there is no such dependency.
> Furthermore: even with the introduction of Rate-control in draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00, no such dependency is introduced. 
> An OLR is a loss-type OLR when it contains a Reduction-Percentage and it's a rate-type OLR when it contains an OC-Maximum-Rate AVP (see draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00 clause 4.1).
>
> A future extension may introduce such dependency (although I don't think it's a good idea) e.g. by saying that an OLR is a new-feature-type OLR when the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the same answer message indicates support of new-feature, and a loss-type OLR otherwise; however this is subject to be specified in the extension spec, not in draft-ietf-dime-ovli.
>
> Summary: currently no dependency; currently dependency is no reason to have OC-Supported-Feature in anwers; new feature may introduce the dependency and consequently introduce OC-Supported-Feature in answer.
>
> Ulrich
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 11:25 AM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
>
>
> On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:57 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> #30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
>>  
>> Dear all,
>>  
>> It may be too early to finaly conclude on this one.
>>  
>> It seems we have consensus in the following: Absence of Supported-Features-AVP from an answer message MUST not result in reacting nodes to cease sending of any DOIC related AVPs in subsequent requests.
> This is OK.
>
>>  
>> It is still open whether we can remove OC-Supported-Features from answer messages. However we seem to agree that the meaning of OC-OLR AVP is not dependent from any OC-Supported-Features AVP within the same answer.
> I do not agree that the OC-OLR meaning is not dependant on the OC-Supported-Features in the answer.
>
>> The open question seems to be whether it is required for reacting nodes to do different throttlings based on implicit signals towards a) non-supporting destinations  and b) supporting but not traffic-reduction-requesting destinations. If required it seems also be clear that an additional indication is needed to indicate whether the OC-Supported-Feature AVP was inserted by the server (host) or by an agent (realm).
> Right.
>
>
> - Jouni
>
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I can see two additional
      reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:<br>
      <br>
      1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type
      of overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.<br>
      <br>
      this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as
      the reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate
      number of requests.&nbsp; It does not require prior knowledge of the
      traffic sent.<br>
      <br>
      There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep
      state about traffic sent to specific destinations.&nbsp; We can, if we
      choose, leave it up to the drafts associated with the new
      abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include
      OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.<br>
      <br>
      2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the
      OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages to know that there is
      no Diameter overload supported in the network and thus take other
      measures to protect the Diameter network.&nbsp; For example, I can
      envision a client implementation that adapts to the knowledge of
      whether servers support overload.&nbsp; In the case that the server
      does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the
      server, up to the point that the server sends an OLR.&nbsp; If the
      client determines that the server does not support overload then
      it might have a configured maximum rate that it will send to the
      server.<br>
      <br>
      My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in
      answers because most abatement algorithms will need it and because
      it can lead to better implementation client implementations.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/19/14 6:37 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3C7A@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hi Jouni,

thank you for your reply, and sorry for not having correctly summarized the status with regard to dependencies between OC-OLR AVP and OC-Supported-Features AVP in an answer message.

I would like to further discuss this aspect.
My understanding is: as long as only OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO (0x0000000000000001) is supported, there is no such dependency.
Furthermore: even with the introduction of Rate-control in draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00, no such dependency is introduced. 
An OLR is a loss-type OLR when it contains a Reduction-Percentage and it's a rate-type OLR when it contains an OC-Maximum-Rate AVP (see draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control-00 clause 4.1).

A future extension may introduce such dependency (although I don't think it's a good idea) e.g. by saying that an OLR is a new-feature-type OLR when the OC-Supported-Features AVP in the same answer message indicates support of new-feature, and a loss-type OLR otherwise; however this is subject to be specified in the extension spec, not in draft-ietf-dime-ovli.

Summary: currently no dependency; currently dependency is no reason to have OC-Supported-Feature in anwers; new feature may introduce the dependency and consequently introduce OC-Supported-Feature in answer.

Ulrich





-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com</a>] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 11:25 AM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status


On Feb 19, 2014, at 11:57 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">#30: OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages
 
Dear all,
 
It may be too early to finaly conclude on this one.
 
It seems we have consensus in the following: Absence of Supported-Features-AVP from an answer message MUST not result in reacting nodes to cease sending of any DOIC related AVPs in subsequent requests.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
This is OK.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap=""> 
It is still open whether we can remove OC-Supported-Features from answer messages. However we seem to agree that the meaning of OC-OLR AVP is not dependent from any OC-Supported-Features AVP within the same answer.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I do not agree that the OC-OLR meaning is not dependant on the OC-Supported-Features in the answer.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">The open question seems to be whether it is required for reacting nodes to do different throttlings based on implicit signals towards a) non-supporting destinations  and b) supporting but not traffic-reduction-requesting destinations. If required it seems also be clear that an additional indication is needed to indicate whether the OC-Supported-Feature AVP was inserted by the server (host) or by an agent (realm).
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Right.


- Jouni

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap=""> 
Ulrich
 
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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On Feb 24, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding =
of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to =
try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>=20
> My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the =
server does not want to receive new sessions. =20
>=20
> Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an =
agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate =
that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>=20
> I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can =
generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of =
servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>=20

The version I had in mind from way back could be sent by either, but =
would apply to all realm-routed requests for the _realm_, regardless of =
which server would finally get it. This is easy enough if the agent =
generates it. It's harder if a server generates it, since that server =
would need full knowledge of the realm. But we should not forbid that =
possibility.

To my knowledge, we have not defined a way for a server to say "reduce =
new session requests to _me_, but let other servers speak for =
themselves." That would require either a new report type, or an AVP to =
indicate the special treatment (which, btw, would start to approach the =
idea of "scopes" ;-) )



> Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based =
applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based =
applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.
>=20

I agree, but will go further to say it applies to any realm-routed =
requests (that is, requests with no Destination-Host AVP present) for =
the associated application, but in an application-independent way.  Or =
more to the point, the set of [session-oriented applications, =
pseudo-session oriented applications, non-session oriented applications] =
is the same as the set of [applications].

> Everyone, which definition applies?
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>> Steve,
>>=20
>> See some comments below please.
>> /MCruz
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [
>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>> ] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
>> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
>> To:=20
>> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>>=20
>> Cc:=20
>> dime@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
>>=20
>> #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>>=20
>>  I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 =
version will
>>  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the =
actual
>>  name of the report.
>>=20
>>  The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
>>  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of =
realm
>>  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>>=20
>>  This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client =
throttling
>>  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for =
that
>>  Diameter application.
>> [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm =
overload.
>>=20
>>  Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter =
application and
>>  all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>>  application.
>>=20
>>  When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease =
the
>>  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  =
The
>>  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
>> [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
>>=20
>>  Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able =
to
>>  handle new sessions.
>>=20
>>  Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in =
the
>>  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but =
the
>>  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>>  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non =
overloaded
>>  servers.
>>=20
>>  The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled =
by
>>  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other =
servers
>>  able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage =
of
>>  requests routed to the overloaded server.
>>=20
>>  Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from =
the
>>  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the =
report
>>  from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in =
the
>>  path) or by an agent and a client.
>>=20
>>  Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>>  throttling the requested percentage.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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Ulrich,

Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:

Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.

When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence
number contained in the active overload report to which it applies
(including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence
numbers to start at 1 for any occurrence of overload at a reporting
node.  This, I think, allows us to ignore wraparound issues as
wraparound will never happen.  Unless we are worried about a server
staying in overload for billions of years (assuming reports with a ten
minute validity period refreshed every five minutes).

The other two statements are good.

Steve

On 2/19/14 9:33 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>  
> I understand that we agreed the following principles:
>  
> Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not correspond
> to the point in time of generation.
>  
> When generated, a new sequence number must be  greater than any
> sequence number previously generated by the same node (including over
> a reboot of that node)
>  
> When received, a sequence number is used to detect
> outdates/replays/freshness.
>  
> Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting nodes.
>  
>  
> I did not understand the requirement for globally uniqueness as
> introduced by Jouni.
> Can Jouni please explain.
>  
> Ulrich
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      Would you agree to the following to replace the first two
      statements:<br>
      <br>
      Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.<br>
      <br>
      When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the
      sequence number contained in the active overload report to which
      it applies (including over reboot of that node).&nbsp; Note: this
      allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for any occurrence of
      overload at a reporting node.&nbsp; This, I think, allows us to ignore
      wraparound issues as wraparound will never happen.&nbsp; Unless we are
      worried about a server staying in overload for billions of years
      (assuming reports with a ten minute validity period refreshed
      every five minutes).<br>
      <br>
      The other two statements are good.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/19/14 9:33 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3D63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
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      <font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt;">
          <div>#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>I understand that we agreed the following principles:</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need
            not correspond to the point in time of generation.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>When generated, a new sequence number must be&nbsp; greater
            than any sequence number previously generated by the same
            node (including over a reboot of that node)</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>When received, a sequence number is used to detect
            outdates/replays/freshness.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered
            by reacting nodes.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>I did not understand the requirement for globally
            uniqueness as introduced by Jouni.</div>
          <div>Can Jouni please explain.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Ulrich</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
        </span></font>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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+1
On 2/20/14 6:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>  
> Dear all,
>  
> Apart from potentially renaming "realm report" to something else (I
> don't like "realm routed report" as its not the report that is
> realm-routed) I believe we finally agreed to accept the text as
> proposed in ticket#34 and replace the corresponding text from clause 4.6.
>  
> Ulrich
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/20/14 6:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3F31@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
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      <font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt;">
          <div>#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Dear all,</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Apart from potentially renaming &#8220;realm report&#8221; to
            something else (I don&#8217;t like &#8220;realm routed report&#8221; as its
            not the report that is realm-routed) I believe we finally
            agreed to accept the text as proposed in ticket#34 and
            replace the corresponding text
            from clause 4.6.</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Ulrich</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
        </span></font>
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      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
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I believe that we agreed to remove the discussion and definition of
server farms when discussion issue #24.  If we still agree on that then
this issue goes away.

Steve

On 2/10/14 4:53 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
> Good point. I would clarify that a server farm could mean both: one with
> a single identity and one with multiple identities. The selection is 
> implementation and deployment specific.
>
> - Jouni
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 10:37 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
>>
>> A "server farm" is defined as "A set of Diameter servers that can handle
>> any request for a given set of Diameter applications.". This is not
>> strictly true. For example, if a request includes a Destination-Server
>> AVP, then then in general only that particular server in the farm can
>> handle the request.
>>
>> I assume that we don't mean to limit the server farm concept to situations
>> where the entire farm is known by a single Diameter-Identity, do we?
>>
>> -- 
>> -------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
>> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>>  ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
>> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
>> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>>  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
>> Severity:  Active WG    |
>>  Document               |
>> -------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/38>
>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I believe that we agreed
      to remove the discussion and definition of server farms when
      discussion issue #24.&nbsp; If we still agree on that then this issue
      goes away.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/14 4:53 AM, Jouni Korhonen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:213D2B01-4A4F-4C06-9272-B93D98F629BC@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Good point. I would clarify that a server farm could mean both: one with
a single identity and one with multiple identities. The selection is 
implementation and deployment specific.

- Jouni


On Feb 7, 2014, at 10:37 PM, dime issue tracker <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">&lt;trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">#38: Server Farm Definition Issue

A "server farm" is defined as "A set of Diameter servers that can handle
any request for a given set of Diameter applications.". This is not
strictly true. For example, if a request includes a Destination-Server
AVP, then then in general only that particular server in the farm can
handle the request.

I assume that we don't mean to limit the server farm concept to situations
where the entire farm is known by a single Diameter-Identity, do we?

-- 
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------
Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>        |  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ovli@tools.ietf.org">ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>
    Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
 docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
Severity:  Active WG    |
 Document               |
-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/38">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/38&gt;</a>
dime <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/&gt;</a>

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior
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Lionel,

I believe that Ben's issue was with the following wording in section 4.3

   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint to
   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
   is less than previously received one.


The wording you reference is in section 5.5.2.

The above wording can be improved by changing the last sentence to "The
reacting node SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
is less than or equal to the previously received sequence number."

Steve

On 2/8/14 10:53 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> Hi Ben,
>
> The case "equal" is discussed in the previous sentence.
>
> Check the following:
>
>    The received OC-Supported-Features AVP does not change the existing
>    overload condition and/or traffic abatement algorithm settings if the
>    OC-Sequence-Number AVP contains a value that is equal to the
>    previously received/recorded one.  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP
>    is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
>    Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
>    recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
>    the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
>    replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.
>
> The first sentence implies that the received OLR is ignored. 
>
> And actually, there is something wrong in the last sentence. At the end, 
>
>    recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
>    the sequence number is stale or replay (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
>    replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.
>
> The "either" in the first line should be removed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker
> Envoyé : vendredi 7 février 2014 22:49
> À : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior
>
> #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior
>
>  section 4.3 says that the receiver should discard an OLR with a sequence
>  number less than the most recent. That should be less than or equal.
>  Technically, re-applying the same OLR should make no difference, but it's
>  never needed, and could be error prone if the sender screwed something up.
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Lionel,<br>
      <br>
      I believe that Ben's issue was with the following wording in
      section 4.3 <br>
    </font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
    </font>
    <pre>
   The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR AVP.
   It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
   the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP content
   changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint to
   update its overload control information, then the OC-Sequence-Number
   AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
   The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number that
   is less than previously received one.</pre>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
      The wording you reference is in section 5.5.2.<br>
      <br>
      The above wording can be improved by changing the last sentence to
      "The reacting node SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence
      number that is less than or equal to the previously received
      sequence number."<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
    </font><br>
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
    </font>On 2/8/14 10:53 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:10919_1391878439_52F66127_10919_17464_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4938F4@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hi Ben,

The case "equal" is discussed in the previous sentence.

Check the following:

   The received OC-Supported-Features AVP does not change the existing
   overload condition and/or traffic abatement algorithm settings if the
   OC-Sequence-Number AVP contains a value that is equal to the
   previously received/recorded one.  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP
   is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
   Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
   recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
   the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
   replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.

The first sentence implies that the received OLR is ignored. 

And actually, there is something wrong in the last sentence. At the end, 

   recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
   the sequence number is stale or replay (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
   replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.

The "either" in the first line should be removed.

Regards,

Lionel


-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de dime issue tracker
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: vendredi 7 f&eacute;vrier 2014 22:49
&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>
Cc&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: [Dime] [dime] #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior

#44: Incorrect sequence number behavior

 section 4.3 says that the receiver should discard an OLR with a sequence
 number less than the most recent. That should be less than or equal.
 Technically, re-applying the same OLR should make no difference, but it's
 never needed, and could be error prone if the sender screwed something up.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
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On Feb 24, 2014, at 3:08 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> I believe that we agreed to remove the discussion and definition of =
server farms when discussion issue #24.  If we still agree on that then =
this issue goes away.
>=20

+1


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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I think the proposal here is the following:

A reporting node communicates that an overload report is no longer valid
by sending an OLR with a Validity-Period AVP with a value of zero.  This
is the only way for a reporting node to indicate that an overload report
is no longer valid.  For instance, setting the reduction-percentage to
zero does not make the overload report invalid. 

Do we have agreement on this?

Steve

On 2/17/14 12:44 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> On Feb 17, 2014, at 12:08 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>
>> I would like to highlight that my proposal is not related to the default Reduction-percentage algo.
>>
>> Whatever the ago used, I think that an OLR can only be sent for two purposes:
>> - Send an indication of overload situation
>> - Send an indication of end of the overload situation
>>
>> For me, providing both indications in the same message would be a non-sense. And I don't understand why the validity period would prevail in that case.
> So here's the question: Let's assume a reporting node sends you an OLR using the "loss" algorithm, a reduction-percentage of 50%, and a Validity-Duration of 10 minutes. 5 minutes later, it sends you a new OLR with an invalid reduction percentage and a Validity-Duration of 0.
>
> What's the current overload state?
>
> What if the second OLR used the "rate" algorithm, with a valid value, but still had a validity duration of 0. Does that change anything?
>
> I am arguing that, in both cases, the second OLR ends the overload period.
>
> I'm actually okay if we have a normative statement to the effect that the reporting node MUST NOT send an invalid reduction percentage, and that a reacting node MUST ignore an OLR with an invalid value _except_ for the case of a validity-duration set to zero.
>
> This all comes down to how much guessing we are willing to do about the intent of the sender when one receives an invalid OLR. I think it's reasonable to guess that a zero validity duration means to end an overload condition, without regard to the rest of the message. I _don't_ think it's reasonable to try to guess what the sender meant with an invalid reduction percentage, when the validity period is non-zero.
>
> Another, perhaps simpler, approach would be to assert that the reception of _any_ invalid OLR automatically ends any existing overload condition. (I'm not necessarily arguing for that--it's just something to think about.)
>
>> Now, if what is argued by Ben and supported by JJ and Steve is clear for the rest of the group, I will not fight.
> ... but the fighting is the fun part :-)
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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<html>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I think the proposal here
      is the following:<br>
      <br>
      A reporting node communicates that an overload report is no longer
      valid by sending an OLR with a Validity-Period AVP with a value of
      zero.&nbsp; This is the only way for a reporting node to indicate that
      an overload report is no longer valid.&nbsp; For instance, setting the
      reduction-percentage to zero does not make the overload report
      invalid.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      Do we have agreement on this?<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/17/14 12:44 PM, Ben Campbell
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:579DC2BE-CC3C-43E6-819C-ADB7B1182CED@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
On Feb 17, 2014, at 12:08 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">I would like to highlight that my proposal is not related to the default Reduction-percentage algo.

Whatever the ago used, I think that an OLR can only be sent for two purposes:
- Send an indication of overload situation
- Send an indication of end of the overload situation

For me, providing both indications in the same message would be a non-sense. And I don't understand why the validity period would prevail in that case.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
So here's the question: Let's assume a reporting node sends you an OLR using the "loss" algorithm, a reduction-percentage of 50%, and a Validity-Duration of 10 minutes. 5 minutes later, it sends you a new OLR with an invalid reduction percentage and a Validity-Duration of 0.

What's the current overload state?

What if the second OLR used the "rate" algorithm, with a valid value, but still had a validity duration of 0. Does that change anything?

I am arguing that, in both cases, the second OLR ends the overload period.

I'm actually okay if we have a normative statement to the effect that the reporting node MUST NOT send an invalid reduction percentage, and that a reacting node MUST ignore an OLR with an invalid value _except_ for the case of a validity-duration set to zero.

This all comes down to how much guessing we are willing to do about the intent of the sender when one receives an invalid OLR. I think it's reasonable to guess that a zero validity duration means to end an overload condition, without regard to the rest of the message. I _don't_ think it's reasonable to try to guess what the sender meant with an invalid reduction percentage, when the validity period is non-zero.

Another, perhaps simpler, approach would be to assert that the reception of _any_ invalid OLR automatically ends any existing overload condition. (I'm not necessarily arguing for that--it's just something to think about.)

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
Now, if what is argued by Ben and supported by JJ and Steve is clear for the rest of the group, I will not fight.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
... but the fighting is the fun part :-)
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
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There is still an issue with the text Maria Cruz points out.  This part
-- If the OC-Supported-Features AVP is received for the first time for
the reporting node -- is erroneous and should be removed from the sentence.

Steve

On 2/21/14 11:24 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
>
> Hi MCruz
>
>  
>
> The text  you propose to remove deals with the Seq number within
>  OC-Supported features, because of duplication with another text, but
> this other text text relates to the seq number handling within the
> OC-OLR AVP.
>
> I think we can keep two texts, one for the seq number  within
> OC-Supported features  and another one for  the seq number  within
> OC-OLR AVP,. We will then see how the text  for seq number  within
> OC-Supported features evolves with the #29  outputs.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
>  
>
> JJacques  
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Maria Cruz
> Bartolome
> *Envoyé :* vendredi 21 février 2014 16:42
> *À :* dime@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
>
>  
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> Extracted text is duplicated now, this paragraph I referred is simply
> wrong.
>
> But I agree duplicated text should be revised due to issue#29, but
> this is up to this ticket to provide the alternative text.
>
>  
>
> Cheers
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Donovan
> *Sent:* viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 16:33
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
>
>  
>
> Maria Cruz,
>
> I think we need to see the replacement text before concluding this ticket.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/21/14 2:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>      
>
>     #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?
>
>      
>
>     Following text will be deleted:
>
>      
>
>         .........  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP
>
>         is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
>
>         Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
>
>         recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
>
>         the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
>
>         replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.
>
>      
>
>      As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the same chapter.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">There is still an issue
      with the text Maria Cruz points out.&nbsp; This part -- </font><font
      face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">If the OC-Supported-Features
      AVP
      is received for the first time for the reporting node -- is
      erroneous and should be removed from the sentence.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/21/14 11:24 AM, TROTTIN,
      JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
            MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The
            text &nbsp;you propose to remove deals with the Seq number within
            &nbsp;OC-Supported features, because of duplication with another
            text, but this other text text relates to the seq number
            handling within the OC-OLR AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            think we can keep two texts, one for the seq number &nbsp;within
            OC-Supported features &nbsp;and another one for &nbsp;the seq number
            &nbsp;within OC-OLR AVP,. We will then see how the text &nbsp;for seq
            number &nbsp;within OC-Supported features evolves with the #29
            &nbsp;outputs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best
            regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
            &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="FR"> DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> vendredi 21 f&eacute;vrier 2014 16:42<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter
                typo? - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Extracted
            text is duplicated now, this paragraph I referred is simply
            wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But
            I agree duplicated text should be revised due to issue#29,
            but this is up to this ticket to provide the alternative
            text.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 16:33<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter
                typo? - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
          <br>
          I think we need to see the replacement text before concluding
          this ticket.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/21/14 2:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome
            wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>#53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Following text will be deleted:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; .........&nbsp; If the OC-Supported-Features AVP<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the same chapter.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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On Feb 24, 2014, at 3:33 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> I think the proposal here is the following:
>=20
> A reporting node communicates that an overload report is no longer =
valid by sending an OLR with a Validity-Period AVP with a value of zero. =
 This is the only way for a reporting node to indicate that an overload =
report is no longer valid.  For instance, setting the =
reduction-percentage to zero does not make the overload report invalid. =20=

>=20
> Do we have agreement on this?

Agreed.=


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I think I agree, but there's a use case that I'm not sure we've covered:

Our definition of a host report requires the Destination-Host avp to be =
present. I think that makes sense for non-adjacent cases ( e.g. =
client-->agent --> server. ) The only way a client knows that a request =
will go to the specific server is the DH avp. But for adjacent cases, =
(e.g. client or agent --> server), the reacting node has complete =
control over the next hop destination, based on whatever sever selection =
function it might implement.

More concretely, if a reacting node receives a host OLR from a reporting =
node, and needs to send a request that it knows will go to that =
reporting node based on it's local next-hop selection, but no DH AVP is =
present, does the OLR apply? If not, do we have any way for a reporting =
node to indicate that it wants a reduction of all messages for an =
application, regardless of whether they are realm or DH routed?

On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:46 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> +1
> On 2/20/14 6:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>> =20
>> Dear all,
>> =20
>> Apart from potentially renaming =93realm report=94 to something else =
(I don=92t like =93realm routed report=94 as its not the report that is =
realm-routed) I believe we finally agreed to accept the text as proposed =
in ticket#34 and replace the corresponding text from clause 4.6.
>> =20
>> Ulrich
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>>=20
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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+ 1, except as noted:

On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Ulrich,
>=20
> Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:
>=20
> Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.
>=20
> When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the =
sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it =
applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows =
sequence numbers to start at 1 for any occurrence of overload at a =
reporting node.  This, I think, allows us to ignore wraparound issues as =
wraparound will never happen.  Unless we are worried about a server =
staying in overload for billions of years (assuming reports with a ten =
minute validity period refreshed every five minutes).

s/ any occurrence of overload / the initial occurrence of an overload =
condition

>=20
> The other two statements are good.
>=20
> Steve


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On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:
>=20
> 1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of =
overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.
>=20
> this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the =
reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate =
number of requests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic =
sent.
>=20
> There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep =
state about traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we =
choose, leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement =
algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, =
as proposed by Ulrich.
>=20
> 2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages to know that there is no =
Diameter overload supported in the network and thus take other measures =
to protect the Diameter network.  For example, I can envision a client =
implementation that adapts to the knowledge of whether servers support =
overload.  In the case that the server does support overload the client =
can send unlimited traffic to the server, up to the point that the =
server sends an OLR.  If the client determines that the server does not =
support overload then it might have a configured maximum rate that it =
will send to the server.
>=20
> My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers =
because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead =
to better implementation client implementations.

+1 on both points=


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On Feb 24, 2014, at 1:52 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> I agree.
>=20
> I also think that we agreed that the lifetime of the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP is a single transaction and that the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP must be included in all requests originated by =
a Diameter node supporting DOIC.

+1, and my previous agreement was based on that assumption.


>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/20/14 4:31 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> I concur with removing the sequence number from =
OC-Supported-Features.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ticket #27 - Behavior of agent acting on behalf of Client that does not support DOIC
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On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:40 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> There has been no discussion of ticket #27.  I can't even find it on =
the DIME list, so I'm copying it here to initiate discussion.
>=20
> The proposal is for an agent to send a TOO-BUSY response when it =
throttles a request from a non supporting client.  The behavior of the =
agent in this case would be in the new section to be added to capture =
agent behavior as proposed in issue #24 (and various other places).
>=20

RFC6733 has the following to say about TOO_BUSY

"When returned, a Diameter node SHOULD attempt to send the message to an =
alternate peer.  This error MUST only be used when a specific server is =
requested, and it cannot provide the requested saervice."

Do those semantics and limitations apply to this usage? Is there a =
chance if incorrect behavior from a client that doesn't support DOIC, =
and therefore is not aware of this new usage of TOO_BUSY? For example, =
if an agent sends TOO_BUSY due due to a host OLR received from the an =
upstream server, the client might (actually SHOULD) try to reach that =
same server via an alternate agent. Is that okay?

I'm not sure I understand the original intent of the MUST only sentence. =
But the only way I know of to request a specific server is to use D-H. =
So would we allow the sending of a TOO_BUSY in response to a =
realm-routed request?



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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #25 Proposed Resolution
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On Feb 24, 2014, at 11:56 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> I propose that we close issue 25 as the resolution of issue 24 =
addressed the concerns raised in issue 25.
>=20
> Note that this requires a new section in the draft to define agent =
behavior.  The actual wording of that section will need to be agreed to =
before issue 24 can be closed.
>=20


Agreed.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ticket #27 - Behavior of agent acting on behalf of Client that does not support DOIC
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It looks like DIAMETER-TOO-BUSY fits best for requests throttled because 
of a Realm-Routed-Request (RRR) overload report handled by an agent.

The only other option I see for agent handling of host overload reports 
is DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY.

    DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY 5012

       This error is returned when a request is rejected for unspecified
       reasons.

This is the behavior definition:

If the service cannot be
    provided by the local realm, then a DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY error
    message MUST be sent within the accounting request; a Diameter client
    receiving an authorization response for a service that it cannot
    perform MUST NOT substitute an alternate service and then send
    accounting requests for the alternate service instead.

Or we could use DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_DELIVER

  DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_DELIVER 3002

       This error is given when Diameter cannot deliver the message to
       the destination, either because no host within the realm
       supporting the required application was available to process the
       request or because the Destination-Host AVP was given without the
       associated Destination-Realm AVP.



Steve

On 2/24/14, 5:11 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:40 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>> There has been no discussion of ticket #27.  I can't even find it on the DIME list, so I'm copying it here to initiate discussion.
>>
>> The proposal is for an agent to send a TOO-BUSY response when it throttles a request from a non supporting client.  The behavior of the agent in this case would be in the new section to be added to capture agent behavior as proposed in issue #24 (and various other places).
>>
> RFC6733 has the following to say about TOO_BUSY
>
> "When returned, a Diameter node SHOULD attempt to send the message to an alternate peer.  This error MUST only be used when a specific server is requested, and it cannot provide the requested saervice."
>
> Do those semantics and limitations apply to this usage? Is there a chance if incorrect behavior from a client that doesn't support DOIC, and therefore is not aware of this new usage of TOO_BUSY? For example, if an agent sends TOO_BUSY due due to a host OLR received from the an upstream server, the client might (actually SHOULD) try to reach that same server via an alternate agent. Is that okay?
>
> I'm not sure I understand the original intent of the MUST only sentence. But the only way I know of to request a specific server is to use D-H. So would we allow the sending of a TOO_BUSY in response to a realm-routed request?
>
>
>


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<html>
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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    It looks like DIAMETER-TOO-BUSY fits best for requests throttled
    because of a Realm-Routed-Request (RRR) overload report handled by
    an agent.<br>
    <br>
    The only other option I see for agent handling of host overload
    reports is DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY.&nbsp; <br>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
      charset=ISO-8859-1">
    <pre>   DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY 5012</pre>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
      charset=ISO-8859-1">
    <pre>      This error is returned when a request is rejected for unspecified
      reasons.</pre>
    This is the behavior definition:<br>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
      charset=ISO-8859-1">
    <pre>If the service cannot be
   provided by the local realm, then a DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY error
   message MUST be sent within the accounting request; a Diameter client
   receiving an authorization response for a service that it cannot
   perform MUST NOT substitute an alternate service and then send
   accounting requests for the alternate service instead.</pre>
    Or we could use DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_DELIVER<br>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
      charset=ISO-8859-1">
    <pre> DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_DELIVER 3002

      This error is given when Diameter cannot deliver the message to
      the destination, either because no host within the realm
      supporting the required application was available to process the
      request or because the Destination-Host AVP was given without the
      associated Destination-Realm AVP.</pre>
    <br>
    <br>
    Steve<br>
    <br>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
      charset=ISO-8859-1">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/14, 5:11 PM, Ben Campbell
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:54DD35E0-52B1-4FB6-B9AB-2527922C86A5@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:40 PM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">There has been no discussion of ticket #27.  I can't even find it on the DIME list, so I'm copying it here to initiate discussion.

The proposal is for an agent to send a TOO-BUSY response when it throttles a request from a non supporting client.  The behavior of the agent in this case would be in the new section to be added to capture agent behavior as proposed in issue #24 (and various other places).

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
RFC6733 has the following to say about TOO_BUSY

"When returned, a Diameter node SHOULD attempt to send the message to an alternate peer.  This error MUST only be used when a specific server is requested, and it cannot provide the requested saervice."

Do those semantics and limitations apply to this usage? Is there a chance if incorrect behavior from a client that doesn't support DOIC, and therefore is not aware of this new usage of TOO_BUSY? For example, if an agent sends TOO_BUSY due due to a host OLR received from the an upstream server, the client might (actually SHOULD) try to reach that same server via an alternate agent. Is that okay?

I'm not sure I understand the original intent of the MUST only sentence. But the only way I know of to request a specific server is to use D-H. So would we allow the sending of a TOO_BUSY in response to a realm-routed request?



</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------040306040305000508090004--


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ticket #27 - Behavior of agent acting on behalf of Client that does not support DOIC
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On Feb 24, 2014, at 8:22 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> It looks like DIAMETER-TOO-BUSY fits best for requests throttled =
because of a Realm-Routed-Request (RRR) overload report handled by an =
agent.

I'm confused. I interpreted 6733 to explicitly forbid DIAMETER_TO_BUSY =
for realm routed requests:=20

"This error MUST only be used when a specific server is requested..."

What am I missing? (Yes, I recognize "... when a specific server is =
requested..." is vague.)


>=20
> The only other option I see for agent handling of host overload =
reports is DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY. =20
>    DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY 5012
>       This error is returned when a request is rejected for =
unspecified
>       reasons.
>=20
> This is the behavior definition:
> If the service cannot be
>    provided by the local realm, then a DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY error
>    message MUST be sent within the accounting request; a Diameter =
client
>    receiving an authorization response for a service that it cannot
>    perform MUST NOT substitute an alternate service and then send
>    accounting requests for the alternate service instead.
>=20
> Or we could use DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_DELIVER
>  DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_DELIVER 3002
>=20
>       This error is given when Diameter cannot deliver the message to
>       the destination, either because no host within the realm
>       supporting the required application was available to process the
>       request or because the Destination-Host AVP was given without =
the
>       associated Destination-Realm AVP.

This seems closer to the right semantics for RRRs.


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Hi,
I agree with MCruz.

Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-r=
outed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured) th=
at there is no other server in that realm).

Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a =
realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into answe=
r messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as rece=
ived in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.

Ulrich




From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.o=
rg
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type

Maria Cruz,

Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding of th=
e meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try to m=
ake Ulrich happy :-) ).

My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the serve=
r does not want to receive new sessions.

Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or=
 a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the netw=
ork need to handle fewer new sessions.

I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can gener=
ate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and=
 their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.

Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.=
  This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and appli=
cations that always rely on realm routed requests.

Everyone, which definition applies?

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

Steve,



See some comments below please.

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20

To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools=
.ietf.org>; srdonovan@usdonovans.com<mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type



#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type



 I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will

 be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual

 name of the report.



 The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the

 reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm

 routed requests sent to the reporting node.



 This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling

 traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that

 Diameter application.

[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overl=
oad.



 Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and

 all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that

 application.



 When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the

 number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The

 server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.

[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.



 Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to

 handle new sessions.



 Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the

 network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the

 throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these

 throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded

 servers.



 The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by

 DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers

 able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of

 requests routed to the overloaded server.



 Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the

 answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report

 from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the

 path) or by an agent and a client.



 Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by

 throttling the requested percentage.




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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree wi=
th MCruz.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Principle =
is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-routed-requ=
est (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured)
 that there is no other server in that realm).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Only agent=
s that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a realm will=
 insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into
 answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages a=
s received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools=
.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot;=
 Overload report type<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments.&nbsp; We obviously have a different understanding =
of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try=
 to make Ulrich happy :-) ).<br>
<br>
My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the serve=
r does not want to receive new sessions.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or=
 a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the netw=
ork need to handle fewer new sessions.<br>
<br>
I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can gener=
ate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and=
 their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.<br>
<br>
Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.=
&nbsp; This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and =
applications that always rely on realm routed requests.<br>
<br>
Everyone, which definition applies?<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>See some comments below please.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docd=
t-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com"=
>srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot; Overl=
oad report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot; Overload report type<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version=
 will<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> be changed to realm-routed.&nbsp; This issue applies independent of t=
he actual<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> name of the report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of re=
alm<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> routed requests sent to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttli=
ng<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for t=
hat<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Diameter application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm =
overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter applicatio=
n and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre> application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.&nbs=
p; The<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able t=
o<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> handle new sessions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but th=
e<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> throttle a percentage of the new session requests.&nbsp; Even when th=
ese<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overload=
ed<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> servers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled =
by<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> DOIC-supporting agents.&nbsp; Agents will understand if there are oth=
er servers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage =
of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> requests routed to the overloaded server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from =
the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> answer before relaying the answer to client.&nbsp; This prevents the =
report<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> path) or by an agent and a client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre> throttling the requested percentage.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B45D9DEMUMBX014nsnin_--


From nobody Tue Feb 25 00:34:43 2014
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 21:37:50 -0600
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All,

My apologies for the flood of messages to the DIME list today.  I was in
the process of compiling the attached document.

The document attempts to capture the status of all of the open trouble
tickets for the DIOC specification.  It is the first draft so be nice if
there are obvious errors.

I am compiling this in advance of next weeks DIME working group meeting
in London.  I hope to have resolved issues updated in a preliminary
version of a -02 version of the DOIC draft prior to the DIME meeting.

Please let me know if there is disagreement on the items I have marked
as resolved, as I will be making those updates to the DOIC draft first.

It is also possible that some of those I have marked as open can be
moved pretty quickly to resolved.

Regards,

Steve

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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">All,<br>
      <br>
      My apologies for the flood of messages to the DIME list today.&nbsp; I
      was in the process of compiling the attached document.<br>
      <br>
      The document attempts to capture the status of all of the open
      trouble tickets for the DIOC specification.&nbsp; It is the first draft
      so be nice if there are obvious errors.<br>
      <br>
      I am compiling this in advance of next weeks DIME working group
      meeting in London.&nbsp; I hope to have resolved issues updated in a
      preliminary version of a -02 version of the DOIC draft prior to
      the DIME meeting.<br>
      <br>
      Please let me know if there is disagreement on the items I have
      marked as resolved, as I will be making those updates to the DOIC
      draft first.<br>
      <br>
      It is also possible that some of those I have marked as open can
      be moved pretty quickly to resolved.<br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
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From nobody Tue Feb 25 01:04:49 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:03:44 +0000
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/XMIUJ8HnrzsNW6WZleQdaQbHig8
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
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Hi MCruz,

thank you for your comments.

I agree that there are dependencies withh issue#35.

Best regards
Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:23 PM
To: dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

Ulrich,

In your proposal you newly define overload control states per client/origin=
-host.
This is very related to the ongoing discussion in Issue#35. Then, at least =
I think we need to first conclude on that thread.

A part from that,  we need to take into account that 3GPP requirement on ov=
erload mitigation differentiation per client is a server option:
TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent implementatio=
ns to decide when and whether overload mitigation differentiation per clien=
t is used".

Therefore, it could be better to keep this differentiation per client/origi=
n-host out of chapter 5.5.1.

Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:44
To: dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

There has been no discussion of this ticket.

I propose to replace text in claues 5.5.1 as suggested in the ticket.

Regards
Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@grenache.tools.ietf.org]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:35 PM
To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

#56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

 The description of Overload Control State in clause 5.5.1 is inaccurate,  =
incomplete and could be misleading. It does not differentiate between  Over=
load Control State in a reacting node versus Overload Control State in  a r=
eporting node. It also does not describe how Overload Control States  are m=
aintained.

 It is proposed to replace current text with the following:


 5.5.1.  Overload Control State (OCS)

    5.5.1.1   Overload Control States for reacting nodes

    A reacting node (client) maintains per supported Diameter application
    a host-type Overload Control State for each Destination-Host towards
    which it sends host-type requests and a realm-type Overload Control  St=
ate
    for each Destination-Realm toward which it sends realm-type requests.
    A host-type Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of
    Application-Id and Destination-Host; a realm-type Overload Control  Sta=
te
    may be identified by the pair of Application-Id and Destination-Realm.
    The host-type/realm-type Overload Control State for a given pair of
    Application and Destination-Host / Destination-Realm could include the
    information as shown in table 1/table 2.

    <see attachment>

    Agents that take the role of a reacting node on behalf of clients MUST
    maintain Overload Control States per client.

    5.5.1.2   Overload Control States for reporting nodes

    A reporting node (server) maintains per supported Diameter application
    an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which it receives
    requests that contain an (explicit or implicit) indication of
    OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.

    A reporting node (agent that is configured to take the role of a
    reporting node for a given realm) maintains per supported Diameter
    application an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which  =
it
    receives realm-type requests (of that given realm) that contain an
    (explicit or implicit) indication of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.

    A Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of Application- =
 Id
    and Origin-Host.

    The Overload Control State for a given pair of Application and Origin-
    Host could include the information as shown in table 3.
    <see attachment>

    Note: For nodes that support other features than just OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO
    the Overload Control State definitions may need to be extended.

    5.5.1.3  Maintaining Overload Control States

    Reacting nodes create a host-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when  recei=
ving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of A and a
    host-type OC-OLR AVP unless such host-type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes create a realm-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when  rece=
iving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm of A and a
    realm-type OC-OLR AVP unless such realm type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes delete an OCS when it expires (i.e. when current time
    minus reception time is greater than validity duration).

    Reacting nodes update the host-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of
    A and a host-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reacting nodes update the realm-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm  =
of
    A and a realm-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reporting nodes create an OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when receiving a
    request (indicating support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO) of application x
    containing an Orig-Host of A unless such OCS already exists.

    Reporting nodes delete an OCS when it expires.

    Reporting nodes update the OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when they detect t=
he
    need to modify the requested amount of application x traffic reduction
    generated by A.

--=20
-------------------------+----------------------------------------------
-------------------------+---
 Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
  ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com   |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
     Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major        |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-       |    Version:
  docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
 Severity:  Active WG    |
  Document               |
-------------------------+----------------------------------------------
-------------------------+---

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/56>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>

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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Steve,

The discussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my =
knowledge that discussion is not concluded.
Then we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between =
realm and realm-routed.
Even more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability=
 (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service to a realm=
) for new session establishment. This is something we discussed long time a=
go, and at that point in time we tend to agree that it was not required, bu=
t up to different applications to decide based on realm overload.
Enhancements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on th=
e basic use cases.

I hope this clarifies
Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Maria Cruz,

I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.  There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect.

The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).

- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.  The host is indicate=
d by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.  Can be=
 generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of s=
ervers.

- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.  Can be generated by a =
server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.

- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.  =
Can be generated by a server or an agent.  The method for determining the r=
ealm state is out of scope for the DOIC document.

Steve
On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello,

I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different repo=
rts (so called realm-routed and just realm).
Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

I propose the following resolution for issue 23:



Proposal - Change the name of realm report.

Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.

Proposal - Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request" reports to indic=
ate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm when there is no d=
estination-host AVP in the request.  Specifically, section 4.6 requires upd=
ating.

There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.

Regards,

Steve




_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The d=
iscussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my knowl=
edge that discussion is not concluded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Then =
we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between realm=
 and realm-routed.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Even =
more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability (by =
agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service to a realm) for=
 new session establishment. This is
 something we discussed long time ago, and at that point in time we tend to=
 agree that it was not required, but up to different applications to decide=
 based on realm overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Enhan=
cements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on the bas=
ic use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I hop=
e this clarifies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Cheer=
s<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.&nbsp; There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect=
.<br>
<br>
The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).<br>
<br>
- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.&nbsp; The host is ind=
icated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.&nb=
sp; Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a =
group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.&nbsp; Can be generated =
by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.&n=
bsp; Can be generated by a server or an agent.&nbsp; The method for determi=
ning the realm state is out of scope for the
 DOIC document.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello=
,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I do =
not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different reports (=
so called realm-routed and just realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regar=
ds</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I propose the following resolution for issue 23:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Proposal &#8211; Change the name of realm report. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><br>
Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot=
;serif&quot;"><br>
Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221=
; reports to indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm =
when there is no destination-host AVP in the request.&nbsp; Specifically, s=
ection 4.6 requires updating.<br>
<br>
There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed by ticket number 55.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Yes, I agree with Steve.

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24
To: lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Lionel,

The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.

I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.  If this is the case then t=
here is little benefit (and significant overhead) to requiring an agent to =
maintain state per non-supporting client.

I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.  If this is the cas=
e then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the origi=
n-host in the request and only then should agents be required to maintain s=
tate for the non-supporting client.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
I really don't understand but it is not the first time :)

What about the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent maint=
aining overload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?
So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavio=
r that was implicit if you consider the comments above.

For me, the option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a spec=
ific client. So over two different DOIC association with the same server/re=
porting node, you can have two different OLRs.
But it does not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Maria Cruz,

To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.  To this end, it would be better to have this as part of the ba=
se specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want the =
same behavior.

Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes respond to per Origin-Hos=
t reports should be specified in a common way.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello again,

I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned=
 in related thread #56.

This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload miti=
gation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:

TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent implementatio=
ns to decide when and whether overload mitigation differentiation per clien=
t is used".



Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be =
considered by 3GPP applications when required.



Best regards

/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve, all,

I agree with Steve.

However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing =
(if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is replaced by new ho=
st OLR (per client).
Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new =
sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the =
contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OL=
R type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.

Let me know your opinions.
Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.

It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default behavior then it =
would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report =
to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this new feature =
is to allow a server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reactin=
g node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.

In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.

My proposal is the following:

- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.

- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).

- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:
  - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not act on=
 the OLR.
  - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must apply =
the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.   This implies t=
hat when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate whic=
h non supporting client originated the request.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.

Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this wording indep=
endent of the resolution of this issue.

Steve
On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

Is it implicit?



If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.



Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.



Regards,



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello Ulrich,



I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.



I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.



I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.



Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi MCruz,

there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.



If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.



Best regards

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello JJ and all,



As per email thread, the latest proposal is:

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."



An Ulrich comments on this:

"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."



Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?

Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi Mcruz and all



I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.

Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .



For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.



Best regards



Jacques







-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome=
 Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@i=
etf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello all,



Not sure we all have the same understanding here.

Let me try to explain my concerns.



The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.

Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:



a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.

Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.

But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.

Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."

But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.

How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:

- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1

- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).

- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?

In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.



b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.

With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.



Let me know your opinions please

Best regards

/MCruz







-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28

To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Steve,



please see inline.



Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Ulrich,



I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.



First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>





We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>



My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.

<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>

To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "s=
ingle-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  =
Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>



Steve

On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Yes, I agree with Steve.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24<br>
<b>To:</b> lionel.morand@orange.com; dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Lionel,<br>
<br>
The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.&nbsp; If this is the case t=
hen there is little benefit (and significant
 overhead) to requiring an agent to maintain state per non-supporting clien=
t.<br>
<br>
I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.&nbsp; If this is th=
e case then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the =
origin-host in the request and only then
 should agents be required to maintain state for the non-supporting client.=
<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I really don't understand=
 but it is not the first time
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"=
>J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What about the DOIC assoc=
iation? What about my assumption about agent maintaining overload control s=
tate for non-DOIC enabled client?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for me, the proposal f=
rom Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavior that was implicit if yo=
u consider the comments above.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For me, the option for th=
e server is only to send a specific OLR for a specific client. So over two =
different DOIC association with the same server/reporting
 node, you can have two different OLRs.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But it does not change th=
e way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org=
">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.&nbsp; To this end, it would be better to have this as part of t=
he base specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want=
 the same behavior.<br>
<br>
Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How reacting nodes respond to per Origi=
n-Host reports should be specified in a common way.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">Hello=
 again,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">I for=
got to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned in r=
elated thread #56.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">This =
is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload mitigatio=
n differentiation per client. But this is a server option:</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states &quot;It=
 may be up to the server/agent implementations to decide when and whether o=
verload mitigation differentiation per client is used&quot;.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Therefore, we can even consider this=
 new OLR out of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP applications when=
 required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve, all,</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
I agree with Steve.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I would like to =
share one concern. We need to avoid that existing (if any) host OLR (&#8220=
;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by new host OLR
 (per client).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host OLR (per client) wit=
h the new AVP requires that the server uses a new sequence number, but exis=
ting host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the contrary
 both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to achieve this,=
 it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (host per client),=
 instead of a new AVP.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let me know your opinions=
.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Adding an AVP to indi=
cate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in the request is not ju=
st an optimization for agents.<br>
<br>
It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior the=
n it would be best to have the default,
 implicit, meaning of an overload report to be &quot;applies to all reactin=
g nodes&quot;.&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow a serve=
r to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting node when then gl=
obal reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
<br>
In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.<br>
<br>
My proposal is the following:<br>
<br>
- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.<br>
<br>
- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
<br>
- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not a=
ct on the OLR.<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must a=
pply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients. &nbsp; This=
 implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differen=
tiate which non supporting client originated
 the request.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.<br>
<br>
Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need something like this wording =
independent of the resolution of this issue.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
s it implicit? <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will h=
ave to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cli=
ent and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm =
assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host o=
f this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of =
this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">E=
ven if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alway=
s put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cli=
ents.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">R=
egards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">L=
ionel<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
e&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">E=
nvoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
bjet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ello Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify =
if this is what JJ got in mind.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open=
 question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for =
one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR t=
o one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any =
client. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">/=
MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.co=
m">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
i MCruz,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
here is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting n=
ode for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from=
 servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduct=
ion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2);=
 A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 request=
ing 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reducti=
on of traffic from C2 to R.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ello JJ and all,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
s per email thread, the latest proposal is:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot; <o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
n Ulrich comments on this:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
quot;This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of th=
e reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also=
 the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node=
 (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role =
of a reacting node towards the server.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
s your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? <o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">/=
MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
i Mcruz and all<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the &quot;repor=
ting&quot; node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for whi=
ch will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it ca=
n reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, =
clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ere I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavior whe=
n&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received f=
or one client for other clients&nbsp; .<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
or me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may =
always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the b=
aseline.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">J=
acques <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Message d'origine-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
e&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 =
f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.=
org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ello all,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">N=
ot sure we all have the same understanding here.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">L=
et me try to explain my concerns.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
he original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to r=
educe traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by &quot;Ori=
gin-Host&quot; in the request.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hen, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the ser=
ver answer shall be marked:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OL=
R) is the client that sends the request, identified by &quot;Origin-Host&qu=
ot; in the request.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hen, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D&quot;Origin-Host&quot;, the expecte=
d reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
ut, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, the=
n the &quot;Origin-Host&quot; identifies final client, but not the reacting=
 node.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hen, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent=
 behavior (possible clause 5.5):<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
ut this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one =
specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.<o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ow will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm=
? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 &#43; S2) via Agent1. Let's consider f=
ollowing example:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
 C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
 S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
 Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR=
 only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for =
requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate a=
ggregated Realm overload?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
n my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only =
meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, =
as in b) below.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">b=
) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client (&quot;Orig=
in-Host&quot; in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
ith this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shal=
l be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP=
.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">L=
et me know your opinions please<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">/=
MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: ext Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
teve,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">p=
lease see inline.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp;=
 <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
irst, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting ag=
ents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This, =
I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; I=
 suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing=
 wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the reque=
st must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Subseque=
nt DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-support=
ing client.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
e need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being t=
he reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily =
happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transacti=
on.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algori=
thm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g=
. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">M=
y other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for=
 the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload =
reports.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports th=
at are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of th=
e &quot;single-client-only&quot; AVP would mean that the report applies to =
all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies =
to the Origin-Host.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. =
Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are=
 client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not wan=
t to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the=
 client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
teve<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
n 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
en,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
he proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, =
Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">N=
ow you seem to address two points:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.<o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for=
 5.5. as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
hen an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a r=
eceived OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request whi=
ch corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
his would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reac=
ting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the c=
ase where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for =
realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a r=
eacting node towards the server.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">b=
) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disa=
gree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of =
reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:<o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">1=
. ignore the 3GPP requirement<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">2=
. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the=
 binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
o far I understood that people favoured option 3.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ee also inline.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostru=
m.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">C=
c: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
n Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a href=3D"mail=
to:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">#=
35: additional report types are proposed<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
ear all,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we a=
greed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
hen an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client=
 not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the orig=
in-host of the client.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 do not agree.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Y=
ou proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If there'=
s an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reactin=
g node from the server's perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not kno=
w whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of th=
e reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-host ty=
pe, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC suppor=
t at the clients.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at th=
e client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-=
supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic=
 by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from t=
he perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't have t=
hat option for non-DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">C=
e message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confident=
ielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">p=
as etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu =
ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
 l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages ele=
ctroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
range decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou f=
alsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
his message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged info=
rmation that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
hey should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delet=
e this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
s emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been m=
odified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">C=
e message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confident=
ielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">p=
as etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu =
ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
 l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages ele=
ctroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
range decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou f=
alsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
his message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged info=
rmation that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
hey should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delet=
e this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
s emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been m=
odified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:16:03 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Steve, MCruz,

lets go step by step.


I'm ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from "realm report type" to "r=
ealm-routed-request report type" and clarify that it applies to destination=
-host-less traffic.


Whether or not to introduce a 3rd report type of "realm" is out of scope of=
 #23 and subject of #55.


Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Steve,

The discussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my =
knowledge that discussion is not concluded.
Then we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between =
realm and realm-routed.
Even more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability=
 (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service to a realm=
) for new session establishment. This is something we discussed long time a=
go, and at that point in time we tend to agree that it was not required, bu=
t up to different applications to decide based on realm overload.
Enhancements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on th=
e basic use cases.

I hope this clarifies
Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Maria Cruz,

I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.  There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect.

The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).

- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.  The host is indicate=
d by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.  Can be=
 generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of s=
ervers.

- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.  Can be generated by a =
server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.

- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.  =
Can be generated by a server or an agent.  The method for determining the r=
ealm state is out of scope for the DOIC document.

Steve
On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello,

I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different repo=
rts (so called realm-routed and just realm).
Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

I propose the following resolution for issue 23:


Proposal - Change the name of realm report.

Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.

Proposal - Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request" reports to indic=
ate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm when there is no d=
estination-host AVP in the request.  Specifically, section 4.6 requires upd=
ating.

There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.

Regards,

Steve



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DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve=
, MCruz,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">lets go step by step.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">I&#8217;m ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from &#8220;re=
alm report type&#8221; to &#8220;realm-routed-request report type&#8221; an=
d clarify that it applies to destination-host-less traffic.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">Whether or not to introduce a 3<sup>rd</sup> report type of &#822=
0;realm&#8221; is out of scope of #23 and subject of #55.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">Ulrich
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">The discussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, =
and to my knowledge that discussion is not concluded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">Then we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiatio=
n between realm and realm-routed.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">Even more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to t=
he ability (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service =
to a realm) for new session establishment.
 This is something we discussed long time ago, and at that point in time we=
 tend to agree that it was not required, but up to different applications t=
o decide based on realm overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">Enhancements could be done on top of this, but first we need to a=
gree on the basic use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">I hope this clarifies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.&nbsp; There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect=
.<br>
<br>
The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).<br>
<br>
- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.&nbsp; The host is ind=
icated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.&nb=
sp; Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a =
group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.&nbsp; Can be generated =
by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.&n=
bsp; Can be generated by a server or an agent.&nbsp; The method for determi=
ning the realm state is out of scope for the
 DOIC document.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz =
Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">Hello,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two diff=
erent reports (so called realm-routed and just realm).</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">Regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
I propose the following resolution for issue 23:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Proposal &#8211; Change the name of realm rep=
ort. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Camb=
ria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221=
; reports to indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm =
when there is no destination-host AVP in the request.&nbsp; Specifically, s=
ection 4.6 requires updating.<br>
<br>
There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed by ticket number 55.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">_______________________________________________<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a=
><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
</blockquote>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#34 proposed conclusion
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Agreed

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 21:47
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#34 proposed conclusion

+1
On 2/20/14 6:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Dear all,

Apart from potentially renaming "realm report" to something else (I don't l=
ike "realm routed report" as its not the report that is realm-routed) I bel=
ieve we finally agreed to accept the text as proposed in ticket#34 and repl=
ace the corresponding text from clause 4.6.

Ulrich







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DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Agreed<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 21:47<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#34 proposed conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#43;1<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/20/14 6:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">#34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Apart from potentially renaming &#8220;=
realm report&#8221; to something else (I don&#8217;t like &#8220;realm rout=
ed report&#8221; as its not the report that is realm-routed) I believe we f=
inally agreed
 to accept the text as proposed in ticket#34 and replace the corresponding =
text from clause 4.6.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
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<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue
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Yes, this issues goes away.
Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 22:09
To: Jouni Korhonen; dime@ietf.org
Cc: ben@nostrum.com
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue

I believe that we agreed to remove the discussion and definition of server =
farms when discussion issue #24.  If we still agree on that then this issue=
 goes away.

Steve
On 2/10/14 4:53 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:



Good point. I would clarify that a server farm could mean both: one with

a single identity and one with multiple identities. The selection is

implementation and deployment specific.



- Jouni





On Feb 7, 2014, at 10:37 PM, dime issue tracker <trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.=
org><mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org> wrote:



#38: Server Farm Definition Issue



A "server farm" is defined as "A set of Diameter servers that can handle

any request for a given set of Diameter applications.". This is not

strictly true. For example, if a request includes a Destination-Server

AVP, then then in general only that particular server in the farm can

handle the request.



I assume that we don't mean to limit the server farm concept to situations

where the entire farm is known by a single Diameter-Identity, do we?



--

-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------

Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-

 ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org<mail=
to:ovli@tools.ietf.org>

    Type:  defect       |     Status:  new

Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:

Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0

 docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:

Severity:  Active WG    |

 Document               |

-------------------------+-------------------------------------------------



Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/38><http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/38>

dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/><http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>








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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Yes, this issues goes awa=
y.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 22:09<br>
<b>To:</b> Jouni Korhonen; dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ben@nostrum.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #38: Server Farm Definition Issue<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I believe that we agr=
eed to remove the discussion and definition of server farms when discussion=
 issue #24.&nbsp; If we still agree on that then this issue goes away.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/10/14 4:53 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Good point. I would clarify that a server farm could mean both: one wi=
th<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a single identity and one with multiple identities. The selection is <=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>implementation and deployment specific.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>- Jouni<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 7, 2014, at 10:37 PM, dime issue tracker <a href=3D"mailto:trac=
&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org">&lt;trac&#43;dime@trac.tools.ietf.org&gt;</a=
> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>#38: Server Farm Definition Issue<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>A &quot;server farm&quot; is defined as &quot;A set of Diameter server=
s that can handle<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>any request for a given set of Diameter applications.&quot;. This is n=
ot<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>strictly true. For example, if a request includes a Destination-Server=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>AVP, then then in general only that particular server in the farm can<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>handle the request.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I assume that we don't mean to limit the server farm concept to situat=
ions<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>where the entire farm is known by a single Diameter-Identity, do we?<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-------------------------&#43;----------------------------------------=
---------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reporter:&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Owner:&nbsp; draft-=
docdt-dime-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:ovli@tools.ietf.org">=
ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Type:&nbsp; defect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Status:&nbsp; new<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Priority:&nbsp; minor&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp=
; Milestone:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Component:&nbsp; draft-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; Version:&nbsp; 1.0<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> docdt-dime-ovli&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbs=
p; Keywords:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Severity:&nbsp; Active WG&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Document&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-------------------------&#43;----------------------------------------=
---------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ticket URL: <a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/=
38">&lt;http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/38&gt;</a><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>dime <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/">&lt;http://tools.ietf.=
org/wg/dime/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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--_000_087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784EC8ESESSMB101erics_--


From nobody Tue Feb 25 01:23:01 2014
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State
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Steve,

thank you for your comments.

Please see inline.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:45 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

Ulrich,

See inline.

Steve
On 2/24/14 5:44 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
There has been no discussion of this ticket.

I propose to replace text in claues 5.5.1 as suggested in the ticket.

Regards
Ulrich


-----Original Message-----
From: ext dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@grenache.tools.ietf.org]=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:35 PM
To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [dime] #56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

#56: Bad Description of Overload Control State

 The description of Overload Control State in clause 5.5.1 is inaccurate,
 incomplete and could be misleading. It does not differentiate between
 Overload Control State in a reacting node versus Overload Control State in
 a reporting node. It also does not describe how Overload Control States
 are maintained.

 It is proposed to replace current text with the following:


 5.5.1.  Overload Control State (OCS)

    5.5.1.1   Overload Control States for reacting nodes

    A reacting node (client) maintains per supported Diameter application

SRD> Why qualify with client.=A0 It applies to all reacting nodes.
<Ulrich> I agree to remove "(client)"</Ulrich>


    a host-type Overload Control State for each Destination-Host towards
    which it sends host-type requests and a realm-type Overload Control
 State
SRD> ...and... (add the word and here)
<Ulrich> I do not agree </Ulrich>


    for each Destination-Realm toward which it sends realm-type requests.
    A host-type Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of
    Application-Id and Destination-Host; a realm-type Overload Control
 State
    may be identified by the pair of Application-Id and Destination-Realm.
    The host-type/realm-type Overload Control State for a given pair of
    Application and Destination-Host / Destination-Realm could include the
    information as shown in table 1/table 2.

    <see attachment>
SRD> Reception time and validity duration could be replaced with "expiratio=
n time"
<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>



    Agents that take the role of a reacting node on behalf of clients MUST
    maintain Overload Control States per client.
SRD> This depends on the resolution of the current discussion of issue 35.=
=A0 I propose it be modified to "Agents that take the reacting node on beha=
lf of non-supporting clients must maintain either the global overload state=
 or per client overload state if requested by the reporting node.
<Ulrich> I agree that this depends on the outcome of #35 </Ulrich>



    5.5.1.2   Overload Control States for reporting nodes

    A reporting node (server) maintains per supported Diameter application
SRD> There is no reason to qualify the reporting node as a server.=A0 It co=
uld also be an agent and all of this still applies.
<Ulrich> the agent case is described below (agent that is configured to tak=
e the role of a reporting node for a given realm) and there are differences=
 </Ulrich>=20

    an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which it receives
    requests that contain an (explicit or implicit) indication of
    OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.
SRD> It doesn't need to be per Origin-Host, per the discussion of issue 35.=
=A0 We should support a global overload state if the reporting node doesn't=
 which to keep per reacting node state.
<Ulrich> I agree that this depends on the outcome of #35 </Ulrich>


    A reporting node (agent that is configured to take the role of a
    reporting node for a given realm) maintains per supported Diameter
    application an Overload Control State for each Origin-Host from which
 it
    receives realm-type requests (of that given realm) that contain an
    (explicit or implicit) indication of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO support.

    A Overload Control State may be identified by the pair of Application-
 Id
    and Origin-Host.
SRD> I don't see this as a must.=A0 It could be identified by just Applicat=
ion-ID.
<Ulrich> I agree that this depends on the outcome of #35 </Ulrich>


    The Overload Control State for a given pair of Application and Origin-
    Host could include the information as shown in table 3.
    <see attachment>
SRD> Expiration time should be sufficient.
<Ulrich> no, you need to store the validity duration since this will be sen=
t in OLRs</Ulrich>


    Note: For nodes that support other features than just OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO
    the Overload Control State definitions may need to be extended.

    5.5.1.3  Maintaining Overload Control States

    Reacting nodes create a host-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when
 receiving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of A and a
    host-type OC-OLR AVP unless such host-type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes create a realm-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when
 receiving
    an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm of A and a
    realm-type OC-OLR AVP unless such realm type OCS already exists.

    Reacting nodes delete an OCS when it expires (i.e. when current time
    minus reception time is greater than validity duration).

    Reacting nodes update the host-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Host of
    A and a host-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reacting nodes update the realm-type OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when
    receiving an answer message of application x containing an Orig-Realm
 of
    A and a realm-type OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number higher than the
    stored sequence number.

    Reporting nodes create an OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when receiving a
    request (indicating support of OLR_DEFAULT_ALGO) of application x
    containing an Orig-Host of A unless such OCS already exists.
SRD> Why would the reporting node create an OCS when it is not overloaded?=
=A0 Shouldn't this be modified to say that the reporting nodes creates an O=
CS when receiving a request and when in an overloaded state for the applica=
tion?
<Ulrich> ok </Ulrich>

=A0 Also, we should not require that the reporting node keep state for all =
reacting nodes, it should be able to keep a single state for all reacting n=
odes.
<Ulrich> I agree that this depends on the outcome of #35 </Ulrich>


    Reporting nodes delete an OCS when it expires.
SRD> or when the reporting node exits the overload state.=A0 This should be=
 after the reporting node sends an overload report with validity duration o=
f zero to reacting nodes.
<Ulrich> there are dependencies with #31 and #35: once a single OLR with va=
lidity duration of zero is sent you should not delete the OCS as there may =
be other agents (issue #31) or even other clients (issue #35) that did not =
get the "end of overload indication"</Ulrich>


    Reporting nodes update the OCS with OCS-Id =3D (x,A) when they detect t=
he
    need to modify the requested amount of application x traffic reduction
    generated by A.



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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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Fine

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 22:33
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I think the proposal here is the following:

A reporting node communicates that an overload report is no longer valid by=
 sending an OLR with a Validity-Period AVP with a value of zero.  This is t=
he only way for a reporting node to indicate that an overload report is no =
longer valid.  For instance, setting the reduction-percentage to zero does =
not make the overload report invalid.

Do we have agreement on this?

Steve
On 2/17/14 12:44 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:



On Feb 17, 2014, at 12:08 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com> wrote:



I would like to highlight that my proposal is not related to the default Re=
duction-percentage algo.



Whatever the ago used, I think that an OLR can only be sent for two purpose=
s:

- Send an indication of overload situation

- Send an indication of end of the overload situation



For me, providing both indications in the same message would be a non-sense=
. And I don't understand why the validity period would prevail in that case=
.



So here's the question: Let's assume a reporting node sends you an OLR usin=
g the "loss" algorithm, a reduction-percentage of 50%, and a Validity-Durat=
ion of 10 minutes. 5 minutes later, it sends you a new OLR with an invalid =
reduction percentage and a Validity-Duration of 0.



What's the current overload state?



What if the second OLR used the "rate" algorithm, with a valid value, but s=
till had a validity duration of 0. Does that change anything?



I am arguing that, in both cases, the second OLR ends the overload period.



I'm actually okay if we have a normative statement to the effect that the r=
eporting node MUST NOT send an invalid reduction percentage, and that a rea=
cting node MUST ignore an OLR with an invalid value _except_ for the case o=
f a validity-duration set to zero.



This all comes down to how much guessing we are willing to do about the int=
ent of the sender when one receives an invalid OLR. I think it's reasonable=
 to guess that a zero validity duration means to end an overload condition,=
 without regard to the rest of the message. I _don't_ think it's reasonable=
 to try to guess what the sender meant with an invalid reduction percentage=
, when the validity period is non-zero.



Another, perhaps simpler, approach would be to assert that the reception of=
 _any_ invalid OLR automatically ends any existing overload condition. (I'm=
 not necessarily arguing for that--it's just something to think about.)





Now, if what is argued by Ben and supported by JJ and Steve is clear for th=
e rest of the group, I will not fight.



... but the fighting is the fun part :-)

_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




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>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
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<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 22:33<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think the proposal =
here is the following:<br>
<br>
A reporting node communicates that an overload report is no longer valid by=
 sending an OLR with a Validity-Period AVP with a value of zero.&nbsp; This=
 is the only way for a reporting node to indicate that an overload report i=
s no longer valid.&nbsp; For instance, setting
 the reduction-percentage to zero does not make the overload report invalid=
.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Do we have agreement on this?<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/17/14 12:44 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 17, 2014, at 12:08 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I would like to highlight that my proposal is not related to the defau=
lt Reduction-percentage algo.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Whatever the ago used, I think that an OLR can only be sent for two pu=
rposes:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Send an indication of overload situation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Send an indication of end of the overload situation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>For me, providing both indications in the same message would be a non-=
sense. And I don't understand why the validity period would prevail in that=
 case.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>So here's the question: Let's assume a reporting node sends you an OLR=
 using the &quot;loss&quot; algorithm, a reduction-percentage of 50%, and a=
 Validity-Duration of 10 minutes. 5 minutes later, it sends you a new OLR w=
ith an invalid reduction percentage and a Validity-Duration of 0.<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>What's the current overload state?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>What if the second OLR used the &quot;rate&quot; algorithm, with a val=
id value, but still had a validity duration of 0. Does that change anything=
?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I am arguing that, in both cases, the second OLR ends the overload per=
iod.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I'm actually okay if we have a normative statement to the effect that =
the reporting node MUST NOT send an invalid reduction percentage, and that =
a reacting node MUST ignore an OLR with an invalid value _except_ for the c=
ase of a validity-duration set to zero.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This all comes down to how much guessing we are willing to do about th=
e intent of the sender when one receives an invalid OLR. I think it's reaso=
nable to guess that a zero validity duration means to end an overload condi=
tion, without regard to the rest of the message. I _don't_ think it's reaso=
nable to try to guess what the sender meant with an invalid reduction perce=
ntage, when the validity period is non-zero.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Another, perhaps simpler, approach would be to assert that the recepti=
on of _any_ invalid OLR automatically ends any existing overload condition.=
 (I'm not necessarily arguing for that--it's just something to think about.=
)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Now, if what is argued by Ben and supported by JJ and Steve is clear f=
or the rest of the group, I will not fight.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>... but the fighting is the fun part :-)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Fine to agree

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Steve, MCruz,

lets go step by step.


I'm ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from "realm report type" to "r=
ealm-routed-request report type" and clarify that it applies to destination=
-host-less traffic.


Whether or not to introduce a 3rd report type of "realm" is out of scope of=
 #23 and subject of #55.


Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Steve,

The discussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my =
knowledge that discussion is not concluded.
Then we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between =
realm and realm-routed.
Even more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability=
 (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service to a realm=
) for new session establishment. This is something we discussed long time a=
go, and at that point in time we tend to agree that it was not required, bu=
t up to different applications to decide based on realm overload.
Enhancements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on th=
e basic use cases.

I hope this clarifies
Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Maria Cruz,

I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.  There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect.

The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).

- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.  The host is indicate=
d by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.  Can be=
 generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of s=
ervers.

- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.  Can be generated by a =
server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.

- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.  =
Can be generated by a server or an agent.  The method for determining the r=
ealm state is out of scope for the DOIC document.

Steve
On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello,

I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different repo=
rts (so called realm-routed and just realm).
Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

I propose the following resolution for issue 23:

Proposal - Change the name of realm report.

Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.

Proposal - Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request" reports to indic=
ate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm when there is no d=
estination-host AVP in the request.  Specifically, section 4.6 requires upd=
ating.

There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.

Regards,

Steve


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DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Fine =
to agree<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wi=
ehe@nsn.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1=
F497D">Steve, MCruz,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1=
F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">lets =
go step by step.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I&#82=
17;m ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from &#8220;realm report type=
&#8221; to &#8220;realm-routed-request report type&#8221; and clarify that =
it applies to destination-host-less traffic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Wheth=
er or not to introduce a 3<sup>rd</sup> report type of &#8220;realm&#8221; =
is out of scope of #23 and subject of #55.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Ulric=
h <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The d=
iscussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my knowl=
edge that discussion is not concluded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Then =
we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between realm=
 and realm-routed.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Even =
more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability (by =
agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service to a realm) for=
 new session establishment. This is
 something we discussed long time ago, and at that point in time we tend to=
 agree that it was not required, but up to different applications to decide=
 based on realm overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Enhan=
cements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on the bas=
ic use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I hop=
e this clarifies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Cheer=
s<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.&nbsp; There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect=
.<br>
<br>
The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).<br>
<br>
- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.&nbsp; The host is ind=
icated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.&nb=
sp; Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a =
group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.&nbsp; Can be generated =
by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.&n=
bsp; Can be generated by a server or an agent.&nbsp; The method for determi=
ning the realm state is out of scope for the
 DOIC document.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello=
,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I do =
not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different reports (=
so called realm-routed and just realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regar=
ds</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I propose the followi=
ng resolution for issue 23:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Proposal &#8211; Change the name of realm report. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><br>
Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot=
;serif&quot;"><br>
Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221=
; reports to indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm =
when there is no destination-host AVP in the request.&nbsp; Specifically, s=
ection 4.6 requires updating.<br>
<br>
There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed by ticket number 55.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue #25 Proposed Resolution
Thread-Index: AQHPMbYNGJRK2achn0CXJLkLNKfuOprFu+SQ
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:55:14 +0000
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/JD1i597KAv3PCztbl9Mv2Zds1IE
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #25 Proposed Resolution
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Agreed

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 0:13
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #25 Proposed Resolution


On Feb 24, 2014, at 11:56 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrot=
e:

> I propose that we close issue 25 as the resolution of issue 24 addressed =
the concerns raised in issue 25.
>=20
> Note that this requires a new section in the draft to define agent behavi=
or.  The actual wording of that section will need to be agreed to before is=
sue 24 can be closed.
>=20


Agreed.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Subject: [Dime] Milestones changed for dime WG
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Changed milestone "Submit 'Diameter Application Design Guidelines' to
the IESG for consideration as a BCP document", added
draft-ietf-dime-app-design-guide to milestone.

URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/dime/charter/


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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>,  Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>,  "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/Yu2SZxgR5mOy3FS15QN1AeFzpYo
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new
sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request
reports?

I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers
need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate
those aggregated reports.

Steve

On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I agree with MCruz.
>
>  
>
> Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of
> realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is
> configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
>
>  
>
> Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node
> for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests
> into answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of
> percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the
> realm.
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Steve
> Donovan
> *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
> *To:* Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org;
> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload
> report type
>
>  
>
> Maria Cruz,
>
> Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding
> of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name
> to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>
> My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the
> server does not want to receive new sessions. 
>
> Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an
> agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate
> that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>
> I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can
> generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of
> servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>
> Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based
> applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based
> applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.
>
> Everyone, which definition applies?
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>     Steve,
>
>      
>
>     See some comments below please.
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
>
>     Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
>
>     To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org <mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>; srdonovan@usdonovans.com <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>
>     Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>
>      
>
>     #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>
>      
>
>      I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will
>
>      be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual
>
>      name of the report.
>
>      
>
>      The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
>
>      reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm
>
>      routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>
>      
>
>      This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling
>
>      traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that
>
>      Diameter application.
>
>     [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.
>
>      
>
>      Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and
>
>      all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>
>      application.
>
>      
>
>      When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the
>
>      number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The
>
>      server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
>
>     [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
>
>      
>
>      Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to
>
>      handle new sessions.
>
>      
>
>      Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the
>
>      network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the
>
>      throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>
>      throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded
>
>      servers.
>
>      
>
>      The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by
>
>      DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers
>
>      able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of
>
>      requests routed to the overloaded server.
>
>      
>
>      Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the
>
>      answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report
>
>      from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
>
>      path) or by an agent and a client.
>
>      
>
>      Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>
>      throttling the requested percentage.
>
>      
>
>  
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">How do agents learn about
      a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (host-less
      requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?<br>
      <br>
      I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the
      servers need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around
      them and generate those aggregated reports.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I agree with MCruz.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Principle is that the server never sends OLRs
            with a report type of realm-routed-request (exept the case
            where the server knows (i.e.is configured) that there is no
            other server in that realm).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Only agents that are configured to take the
            role of a reporting node for a realm will insert OLRs with
            report type of realm-routed-requests into answer messages
            and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as
            received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the
            realm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
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            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of
                "Realm-Routed" Overload report type<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
          <br>
          Thanks for the comments.&nbsp; We obviously have a different
          understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report
          (new attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).<br>
          <br>
          My definition is that it is a report generated by the server
          when the server does not want to receive new sessions.&nbsp;
          <br>
          <br>
          Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by
          an agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?)
          to indicate that the network need to handle fewer new
          sessions.<br>
          <br>
          I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an
          agent can generate a realm-routed-request report without
          knowing the status of servers and their ability to handle new
          Diameter sessions.<br>
          <br>
          Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based
          applications.&nbsp; This could also be applied to pseudo session
          based applications and applications that always rely on realm
          routed requests.<br>
          <br>
          Everyone, which definition applies?<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome
            wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>See some comments below please.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> be changed to realm-routed.&nbsp; This issue applies independent of the actual<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> name of the report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> routed requests sent to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> Diameter application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> handle new sessions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> throttle a percentage of the new session requests.&nbsp; Even when these<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> servers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> DOIC-supporting agents.&nbsp; Agents will understand if there are other servers<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> requests routed to the overloaded server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> answer before relaying the answer to client.&nbsp; This prevents the report<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> path) or by an agent and a client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre> Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> throttling the requested percentage.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 07:22:22 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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I believe the other issue then is whether servers generate RRR reports.

Consider the most basic case where there are no agents.

 C1--\
 C2-------S
 C3--/

Is it not appropriate for a server, in this case, to be able to send RRRs?

In an agent case, the server sending the RRR gives the agent the ability
to generate an aggregated RRR the covers all servers for the
application.  So I guess, there would be a DOIC association between the
client and the agent use to transport the aggregated RRR and a DOIC
associate between the agent and the server used to transport the server
specific RRR.

Steve

On 2/25/14 3:33 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
> Fine to agree
>
>  
>
> *From:*Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
> *Sent:* martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16
> *To:* Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>  
>
> Steve, MCruz,
>
>  
>
> lets go step by step.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> I'm ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from "realm report type"
> to "realm-routed-request report type" and clarify that it applies to
> destination-host-less traffic.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Whether or not to introduce a 3^rd report type of "realm" is out of
> scope of #23 and subject of #55.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Maria
> Cruz Bartolome
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>  
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> The discussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and
> to my knowledge that discussion is not concluded.
>
> Then we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation
> between realm and realm-routed.
>
> Even more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the
> ability (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing
> service to a realm) for new session establishment. This is something
> we discussed long time ago, and at that point in time we tend to agree
> that it was not required, but up to different applications to decide
> based on realm overload.
>
> Enhancements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree
> on the basic use cases.
>
>  
>
> I hope this clarifies
>
> Cheers
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Donovan
> *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>  
>
> Maria Cruz,
>
> I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have
> the ability to have a realm report that control the total amount of
> traffic sent to a realm.  There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement
> to this effect.
>
> The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the
> resolution of the per client host report discussion).
>
> - Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.  The host is
> indicated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the
> report.  Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a
> front-end to a group of servers.
>
> - Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a
> realm without a destination-host AVP in the request message.  Can be
> generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group
> of servers.
>
> - Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm,
> independent of the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in
> the request message.  Can be generated by a server or an agent.  The
> method for determining the realm state is out of scope for the DOIC
> document.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>     Hello,
>
>      
>
>     I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two
>     different reports (so called realm-routed and just realm).
>
>     Regards
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve
>     Donovan
>     *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
>     *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>      
>
>     I propose the following resolution for issue 23:
>
>     Proposal -- Change the name of realm report.  
>
>
>     Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.
>
>
>     Proposal -- Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request"
>     reports to indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a
>     realm when there is no destination-host AVP in the request. 
>     Specifically, section 4.6 requires updating.
>
>     There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all
>     transactions to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Steve
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I believe the other issue
      then is whether servers generate RRR reports.<br>
      <br>
      Consider the most basic case where there are no agents.<br>
      <br>
      &nbsp;C1--\<br>
      &nbsp;C2-------S<br>
      &nbsp;C3--/<br>
      <br>
      Is it not appropriate for a server, in this case, to be able to
      send RRRs?<br>
      <br>
      In an agent case, the server sending the RRR gives the agent the
      ability to generate an aggregated RRR the covers all servers for
      the application.&nbsp; So I guess, there would be a DOIC association
      between the client and the agent use to transport the aggregated
      RRR and a DOIC associate between the agent and the server used to
      transport the server specific RRR.<br>
      <br>
      Steve <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/14 3:33 AM, Maria Cruz
      Bartolome wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Fine to agree<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16<br>
                <b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D" lang="DE">Steve,
            MCruz,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D" lang="DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">lets go step by step.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m ok to conclude on
            #23 to do the renaming from &#8220;realm report type&#8221; to
            &#8220;realm-routed-request report type&#8221; and clarify that it
            applies to destination-host-less traffic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Whether or not to
            introduce a 3<sup>rd</sup> report type of &#8220;realm&#8221; is out of
            scope of #23 and subject of #55.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Ulrich <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The discussion
            started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my
            knowledge that discussion is not concluded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Then we have not
            agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between
            realm and realm-routed.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Even more, as far as
            I understand the proposal it is related to the ability (by
            agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service
            to a realm) for new session establishment. This is something
            we discussed long time ago, and at that point in time we
            tend to agree that it was not required, but up to different
            applications to decide based on realm overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Enhancements could be
            done on top of this, but first we need to agree on the basic
            use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I hope this clarifies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
          <br>
          I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement
          to have the ability to have a realm report that control the
          total amount of traffic sent to a realm.&nbsp; There is certainly
          an IETF DOC requirement to this effect.<br>
          <br>
          The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending
          on the resolution of the per client host report discussion).<br>
          <br>
          - Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.&nbsp; The
          host is indicated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message
          carrying the report.&nbsp; Can be generated by a server or by an
          agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
          <br>
          - Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent
          to a realm without a destination-host AVP in the request
          message.&nbsp; Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting
          as a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
          <br>
          - Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm,
          independent of the presence or absence of a destination-host
          AVP in the request message.&nbsp; Can be generated by a server or
          an agent.&nbsp; The method for determining the realm state is out
          of scope for the DOIC document.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome
            wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I do not think we
              have agreed so far on the need to have two different
              reports (so called realm-routed and just realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I propose
            the following resolution for issue 23:<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Proposal
            &#8211; Change the name of realm report. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
            Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
              Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221;
              reports to indicate that they apply only to requests
              targeted to a realm when there is no destination-host AVP
              in the request.&nbsp; Specifically, section 4.6 requires
              updating.<br>
              <br>
              There is also a proposal to add a new report type to
              handle all transactions to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed by
              ticket number 55.<br>
              <br>
              Regards,<br>
              <br>
              Steve</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
              style="font-family:&quot;Times New
              Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents =
generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the react=
ing node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC assoc=
iations with the servers.

Ulrich

From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org; d=
raft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type

How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (=
host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?

I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need t=
o send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those ag=
gregated reports.

Steve
On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Hi,
I agree with MCruz.

Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-r=
outed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured) th=
at there is no other server in that realm).

Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a =
realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into answe=
r messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as rece=
ived in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.

Ulrich




From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>; draft-docdt-=
dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type

Maria Cruz,

Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding of th=
e meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try to m=
ake Ulrich happy :-) ).

My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the serve=
r does not want to receive new sessions.

Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or=
 a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the netw=
ork need to handle fewer new sessions.

I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can gener=
ate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and=
 their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.

Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.=
  This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and appli=
cations that always rely on realm routed requests.

Everyone, which definition applies?

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

Steve,



See some comments below please.

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20

To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools=
.ietf.org>; srdonovan@usdonovans.com<mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type



#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type



 I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will

 be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual

 name of the report.



 The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the

 reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm

 routed requests sent to the reporting node.



 This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling

 traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that

 Diameter application.

[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overl=
oad.



 Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and

 all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that

 application.



 When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the

 number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The

 server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.

[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.



 Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to

 handle new sessions.



 Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the

 network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the

 throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these

 throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded

 servers.



 The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by

 DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers

 able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of

 requests routed to the overloaded server.



 Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the

 answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report

 from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the

 path) or by an agent and a client.



 Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by

 throttling the requested percentage.





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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My underst=
anding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents generating=
 an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the
 reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC=
 associations with the servers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf=
.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot;=
 Overload report type<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">How do agents learn a=
bout a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (host-less requests) i=
f servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?<br>
<br>
I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need t=
o send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those ag=
gregated reports.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree wi=
th MCruz.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Principle =
is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-routed-requ=
est (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured)
 that there is no other server in that realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Only agent=
s that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a realm will=
 insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into
 answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages a=
s received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ov=
li@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot;=
 Overload report type</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments.&nbsp; We obviously have a different understanding =
of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try=
 to make Ulrich happy :-) ).<br>
<br>
My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the serve=
r does not want to receive new sessions.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or=
 a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the netw=
ork need to handle fewer new sessions.<br>
<br>
I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can gener=
ate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and=
 their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.<br>
<br>
Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.=
&nbsp; This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and =
applications that always rely on realm routed requests.<br>
<br>
Everyone, which definition applies?<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>See some comments below please.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docd=
t-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com"=
>srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot; Overl=
oad report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot; Overload report type<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version=
 will<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> be changed to realm-routed.&nbsp; This issue applies independent of t=
he actual<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> name of the report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of re=
alm<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> routed requests sent to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttli=
ng<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for t=
hat<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Diameter application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm =
overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter applicatio=
n and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre> application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.&nbs=
p; The<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able t=
o<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> handle new sessions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but th=
e<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> throttle a percentage of the new session requests.&nbsp; Even when th=
ese<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overload=
ed<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> servers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled =
by<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> DOIC-supporting agents.&nbsp; Agents will understand if there are oth=
er servers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage =
of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> requests routed to the overloaded server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from =
the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> answer before relaying the answer to client.&nbsp; This prevents the =
report<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> path) or by an agent and a client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre> throttling the requested percentage.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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I'm not comfortable with this model that assumes that agents have a
better understanding then servers on the servers ability to handle new
sessions.

Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is not in
the network? 

RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request, generally requests
that create new sessions, recognizing that those requests are more
expensive than what we have referred to as mid-session requests.

Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports but servers
should be able to send them as well.

Steve

On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports.
> Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association
> towards the reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports
> received on the DOIC associations with the servers.
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
> *From:*ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
> *To:* Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome;
> dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload
> report type
>
>  
>
> How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new
> sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent
> realm-routed-request reports?
>
> I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers
> need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and
> generate those aggregated reports.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     I agree with MCruz.
>
>      
>
>     Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type
>     of realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows
>     (i.e.is configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
>
>      
>
>     Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting
>     node for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of
>     realm-routed-requests into answer messages and the content should
>     be the aggregation of percentages as received in host type OLRs
>     from all the servers in the realm.
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext
>     Steve Donovan
>     *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
>     *To:* Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>;
>     draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed"
>     Overload report type
>
>      
>
>     Maria Cruz,
>
>     Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different
>     understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new
>     attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>
>     My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when
>     the server does not want to receive new sessions. 
>
>     Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an
>     agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to
>     indicate that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>
>     I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent
>     can generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the
>     status of servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>
>     Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based
>     applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based
>     applications and applications that always rely on realm routed
>     requests.
>
>     Everyone, which definition applies?
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>         Steve,
>
>          
>
>         See some comments below please.
>
>         /MCruz
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
>
>         Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
>
>         To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org <mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>; srdonovan@usdonovans.com <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>
>         Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>
>          
>
>         #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>
>          
>
>          I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will
>
>          be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual
>
>          name of the report.
>
>          
>
>          The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
>
>          reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm
>
>          routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>
>          
>
>          This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling
>
>          traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that
>
>          Diameter application.
>
>         [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.
>
>          
>
>          Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and
>
>          all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>
>          application.
>
>          
>
>          When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the
>
>          number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The
>
>          server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
>
>         [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
>
>          
>
>          Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to
>
>          handle new sessions.
>
>          
>
>          Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the
>
>          network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the
>
>          throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>
>          throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded
>
>          servers.
>
>          
>
>          The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by
>
>          DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers
>
>          able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of
>
>          requests routed to the overloaded server.
>
>          
>
>          Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the
>
>          answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report
>
>          from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
>
>          path) or by an agent and a client.
>
>          
>
>          Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>
>          throttling the requested percentage.
>
>          
>
>      
>
>  
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I'm not comfortable with
      this model that assumes that agents have a better understanding then
      servers on the servers ability to handle new sessions.<br>
      <br>
      Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is not
      in the network?&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request, generally
      requests that create new sessions, recognizing that those requests
      are more expensive than what we have referred to as mid-session
      requests.<br>
      <br>
      Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports but
      servers should be able to send them as well.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B473F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">My understanding is that RRR reports are always
            aggregated reports. Agents generating an RRR report (for use
            on the DOIC association towards the reacting node) take as
            an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC
            associations with the servers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> ext Steve Donovan
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz
                Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of
                "Realm-Routed" Overload report type<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">How do agents
          learn about a set of servers ability to handle new sessions
          (host-less requests) if servers never sent
          realm-routed-request reports?<br>
          <br>
          I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the
          servers need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around
          them and generate those aggregated reports.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
            DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">I agree with MCruz.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Principle is that the server never sends OLRs
              with a report type of realm-routed-request (exept the case
              where the server knows (i.e.is configured) that there is
              no other server in that realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Only agents that are configured to take the
              role of a reporting node for a realm will insert OLRs with
              report type of realm-routed-requests into answer messages
              and the content should be the aggregation of percentages
              as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the
              realm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>;
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of
                  "Realm-Routed" Overload report type</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
            <br>
            Thanks for the comments.&nbsp; We obviously have a different
            understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report
            (new attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).<br>
            <br>
            My definition is that it is a report generated by the server
            when the server does not want to receive new sessions.&nbsp;
            <br>
            <br>
            Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated
            by an agent (or a server is there are no agents in the
            network?) to indicate that the network need to handle fewer
            new sessions.<br>
            <br>
            I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an
            agent can generate a realm-routed-request report without
            knowing the status of servers and their ability to handle
            new Diameter sessions.<br>
            <br>
            Note that I'm discussing this in the context of
            session-based applications.&nbsp; This could also be applied to
            pseudo session based applications and applications that
            always rely on realm routed requests.<br>
            <br>
            Everyone, which definition applies?<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz
              Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>See some comments below please.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> be changed to realm-routed.&nbsp; This issue applies independent of the actual<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> name of the report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> routed requests sent to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> Diameter application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> handle new sessions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> throttle a percentage of the new session requests.&nbsp; Even when these<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> servers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> DOIC-supporting agents.&nbsp; Agents will understand if there are other servers<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> requests routed to the overloaded server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> answer before relaying the answer to client.&nbsp; This prevents the report<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> path) or by an agent and a client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> throttling the requested percentage.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
Thread-Index: AQHPMisxxOZ2qKT5nEiEsF3hiOz/X5rF88OAgAABaICAABEHQA==
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 14:24:33 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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The general idea is that a reduction is required. This reduction is either =
towards a specific host or towards the entire realm. Obviously, the realm i=
s equal to the some of the servers inside this realm (for a given applicati=
on) and the realm reduction is equal to the average of the reduction of eac=
h server. I think it was what we have described when discussing the report =
types needed in the OLR.
Which entity is sending this info is not so relevant. Usually, it will be a=
n agent in front of the realm but it could be also a server when this serve=
r is aware of the overload state of other servers in the realm.


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 15:23
=C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org;=
 draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report t=
ype

I'm not comfortable with this model that assumes that agents have a better =
understanding then servers on the servers ability to handle new sessions.

Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is not in the n=
etwork?

RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request, generally requests th=
at create new sessions, recognizing that those requests are more expensive =
than what we have referred to as mid-session requests.

Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports but servers sho=
uld be able to send them as well.

Steve
On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents =
generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the react=
ing node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC assoc=
iations with the servers.

Ulrich

From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<ma=
ilto:dime@ietf.org>; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docd=
t-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type

How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (=
host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?

I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need t=
o send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those ag=
gregated reports.

Steve
On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Hi,
I agree with MCruz.

Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-r=
outed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured) th=
at there is no other server in that realm).

Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a =
realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into answe=
r messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as rece=
ived in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.

Ulrich




From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>; draft-docdt-=
dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type

Maria Cruz,

Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding of th=
e meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try to m=
ake Ulrich happy :-) ).

My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the serve=
r does not want to receive new sessions.

Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or=
 a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the netw=
ork need to handle fewer new sessions.

I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can gener=
ate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and=
 their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.

Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.=
  This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and appli=
cations that always rely on realm routed requests.

Everyone, which definition applies?

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

Steve,



See some comments below please.

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20

To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools=
.ietf.org>; srdonovan@usdonovans.com<mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type



#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type



 I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will

 be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual

 name of the report.



 The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the

 reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm

 routed requests sent to the reporting node.



 This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling

 traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that

 Diameter application.

[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overl=
oad.



 Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and

 all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that

 application.



 When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the

 number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The

 server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.

[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.



 Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to

 handle new sessions.



 Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the

 network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the

 throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these

 throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded

 servers.



 The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by

 DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers

 able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of

 requests routed to the overloaded server.



 Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the

 answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report

 from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the

 path) or by an agent and a client.



 Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by

 throttling the requested percentage.






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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The genera=
l idea is that a reduction is required. This reduction is either towards a =
specific host or towards the entire realm. Obviously, the
 realm is equal to the some of the servers inside this realm (for a given a=
pplication) and the realm reduction is equal to the average of the reductio=
n of each server. I think it was what we have described when discussing the=
 report types needed in the OLR.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Which enti=
ty is sending this info is not so relevant. Usually, it will be an agent in=
 front of the realm but it could be also a server when this
 server is aware of the overload state of other servers in the realm. <o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 15:23<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; di=
me@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&q=
uot; Overload report type<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I'm not comfortable w=
ith this model that assumes that agents have a better understanding then se=
rvers on the servers ability to handle new sessions.<br>
<br>
Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is not in the n=
etwork?&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request, generally requests th=
at create new sessions, recognizing that those requests are more expensive =
than what we have referred to as mid-session requests.<br>
<br>
Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports but servers sho=
uld be able to send them as well.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My underst=
anding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents generating=
 an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the
 reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC=
 associations with the servers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
<a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com=
</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=
=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">
dime@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">=
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot;=
 Overload report type</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">How do agents learn a=
bout a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (host-less requests) i=
f servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?<br>
<br>
I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need t=
o send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those ag=
gregated reports.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree wi=
th MCruz.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Principle =
is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-routed-requ=
est (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured)
 that there is no other server in that realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Only agent=
s that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a realm will=
 insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into
 answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages a=
s received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ov=
li@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot;=
 Overload report type</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments.&nbsp; We obviously have a different understanding =
of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try=
 to make Ulrich happy :-) ).<br>
<br>
My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the serve=
r does not want to receive new sessions.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or=
 a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the netw=
ork need to handle fewer new sessions.<br>
<br>
I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can gener=
ate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and=
 their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.<br>
<br>
Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.=
&nbsp; This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and =
applications that always rely on realm routed requests.<br>
<br>
Everyone, which definition applies?<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>See some comments below please.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docd=
t-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com"=
>srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot; Overl=
oad report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot; Overload report type<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version=
 will<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> be changed to realm-routed.&nbsp; This issue applies independent of t=
he actual<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> name of the report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of re=
alm<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> routed requests sent to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttli=
ng<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for t=
hat<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Diameter application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm =
overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter applicatio=
n and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre> application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.&nbs=
p; The<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able t=
o<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> handle new sessions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but th=
e<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> throttle a percentage of the new session requests.&nbsp; Even when th=
ese<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overload=
ed<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> servers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled =
by<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> DOIC-supporting agents.&nbsp; Agents will understand if there are oth=
er servers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage =
of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> requests routed to the overloaded server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from =
the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> answer before relaying the answer to client.&nbsp; This prevents the =
report<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> path) or by an agent and a client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre> throttling the requested percentage.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Steve,

see inline

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:22 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

I believe the other issue then is whether servers generate RRR reports.

Consider the most basic case where there are no agents.

 C1--\
 C2-------S
 C3--/

Is it not appropriate for a server, in this case, to be able to send RRRs?
<Ulrich>no</Ulrich>

In an agent case, the server sending the RRR gives the agent the ability to=
 generate an aggregated RRR the covers all servers for the application.
<Ulrich>the agent should aggregate received host-type reports and convert i=
t into an RRR report</Ulrich>
  So I guess, there would be a DOIC association between the client and the =
agent use to transport the aggregated RRR
<Ulrich>yes</Ulrich>
and a DOIC associate between the agent and the server used to transport the=
 server specific RRR
<Ulrich>server specific host-type report</Ulrich>
.

Steve
On 2/25/14 3:33 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Fine to agree

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Steve, MCruz,

lets go step by step.


I'm ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from "realm report type" to "r=
ealm-routed-request report type" and clarify that it applies to destination=
-host-less traffic.


Whether or not to introduce a 3rd report type of "realm" is out of scope of=
 #23 and subject of #55.


Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Steve,

The discussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my =
knowledge that discussion is not concluded.
Then we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between =
realm and realm-routed.
Even more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability=
 (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service to a realm=
) for new session establishment. This is something we discussed long time a=
go, and at that point in time we tend to agree that it was not required, bu=
t up to different applications to decide based on realm overload.
Enhancements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on th=
e basic use cases.

I hope this clarifies
Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Maria Cruz,

I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.  There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect.

The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).

- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.  The host is indicate=
d by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.  Can be=
 generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of s=
ervers.

- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.  Can be generated by a =
server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.

- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.  =
Can be generated by a server or an agent.  The method for determining the r=
ealm state is out of scope for the DOIC document.

Steve
On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello,

I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different repo=
rts (so called realm-routed and just realm).
Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

I propose the following resolution for issue 23:


Proposal - Change the name of realm report.

Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.

Proposal - Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request" reports to indic=
ate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm when there is no d=
estination-host AVP in the request.  Specifically, section 4.6 requires upd=
ating.

There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.

Regards,

Steve


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">see i=
nline<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I believe the other i=
ssue then is whether servers generate RRR reports.<br>
<br>
Consider the most basic case where there are no agents.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;C1--\<br>
&nbsp;C2-------S<br>
&nbsp;C3--/<br>
<br>
Is it not appropriate for a server, in this case, to be able to send RRRs?<=
span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;no&lt;/Ulrich&=
gt;</span></i></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
In an agent case, the server sending the RRR gives the agent the ability to=
 generate an aggregated RRR the covers all servers for the application.</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;the agent shou=
ld aggregate received host-type reports and convert it into an RRR report&l=
t;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
&nbsp; So I guess, there would be a DOIC association between the client and=
 the agent use to transport the aggregated RRR</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;yes&lt;/Ulrich=
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
and a DOIC associate between the agent and the server used to transport the=
 server specific RRR</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;server specifi=
c host-type report&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
.<br>
<br>
</span>Steve <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 3:33 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Fine =
to agree</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve=
, MCruz,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">lets =
go step by step.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I&#82=
17;m ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from &#8220;realm report type=
&#8221; to &#8220;realm-routed-request report type&#8221; and clarify that =
it applies to destination-host-less traffic.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Wheth=
er or not to introduce a 3<sup>rd</sup> report type of &#8220;realm&#8221; =
is out of scope of #23 and subject of #55.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Ulric=
h </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve=
,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The d=
iscussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my knowl=
edge that discussion is not concluded.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Then =
we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between realm=
 and realm-routed.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Even =
more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability (by =
agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service to a realm) for=
 new session establishment. This is
 something we discussed long time ago, and at that point in time we tend to=
 agree that it was not required, but up to different applications to decide=
 based on realm overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Enhan=
cements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on the bas=
ic use cases.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I hop=
e this clarifies</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Cheer=
s</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.&nbsp; There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect=
.<br>
<br>
The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).<br>
<br>
- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.&nbsp; The host is ind=
icated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.&nb=
sp; Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a =
group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.&nbsp; Can be generated =
by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.&n=
bsp; Can be generated by a server or an agent.&nbsp; The method for determi=
ning the realm state is out of scope for the
 DOIC document.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello=
,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I do =
not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different reports (=
so called realm-routed and just realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regar=
ds</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I propose the followi=
ng resolution for issue 23:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Proposal &#8211; Change the name of realm report. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><br>
Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot=
;serif&quot;"><br>
Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221=
; reports to indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm =
when there is no destination-host AVP in the request.&nbsp; Specifically, s=
ection 4.6 requires updating.<br>
<br>
There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed by ticket number 55.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Times New Roman , serif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman , s=
erif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Ulrich,

Please see inline.

Steve

On 2/25/14 8:26 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> see inline
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Steve
> Donovan
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:22 PM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>  
>
> I believe the other issue then is whether servers generate RRR reports.
>
> Consider the most basic case where there are no agents.
>
>  C1--\
>  C2-------S
>  C3--/
>
> Is it not appropriate for a server, in this case, to be able to send RRRs?
>
> */<Ulrich>no</Ulrich>/*
>
SRD> Then we have a bigger disconnect then I thought.  I'm pretty sure
that we had discussed the ability of a server to use what we are now
calling RRRs to be able to indicate that it does not want to take on new
sessions.  Host reports are used to control the mid-session traffic (for
session based applications like those used in the 3GPP PCC architecture). 

SRD> I would also assert that PCC is a case where there is a strong need
for the server to be able to say that it wants to reduce the number of
new session taken on so that the DRA in that architecture can properly
route sessions that generate new bindings.

SRD> So, to summarize, I believe that we DO have a requirement to allow
the server to send RRRs.

SRD> Maybe we need two types of RRRs, one that applies to a single
server and one that applies to the full realm.  Yes Ben, these do start
to sound like scopes :-) but this can also be addressed by either
creating separate report types or qualifying the RRR report.
>
>
> In an agent case, the server sending the RRR gives the agent the
> ability to generate an aggregated RRR the covers all servers for the
> application.
>
> */<Ulrich>the agent should aggregate received host-type reports and
> convert it into an RRR report</Ulrich>/*
>
SRD> This is what an agent would do to generate the proposed new "realm"
report.  I'm skeptical that an agent can make reasonable decisions about
what RRR report to generate based on host reports received.
>
>   So I guess, there would be a DOIC association between the client and
> the agent use to transport the aggregated RRR
>
> */<Ulrich>yes</Ulrich>/*
>
> and a DOIC associate between the agent and the server used to
> transport the server specific RRR
>
> */<Ulrich>server specific host-type report</Ulrich>/*
>
> .
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/25/14 3:33 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>     Fine to agree
>
>      
>
>     *From:*Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
>     *Sent:* martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16
>     *To:* Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>      
>
>     Steve, MCruz,
>
>      
>
>     lets go step by step.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     I'm ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from "realm report
>     type" to "realm-routed-request report type" and clarify that it
>     applies to destination-host-less traffic.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Whether or not to introduce a 3^rd report type of "realm" is out
>     of scope of #23 and subject of #55.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>     *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext
>     Maria Cruz Bartolome
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM
>     *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>      
>
>     Steve,
>
>      
>
>     The discussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich,
>     and to my knowledge that discussion is not concluded.
>
>     Then we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation
>     between realm and realm-routed.
>
>     Even more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to
>     the ability (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm,
>     providing service to a realm) for new session establishment. This
>     is something we discussed long time ago, and at that point in time
>     we tend to agree that it was not required, but up to different
>     applications to decide based on realm overload.
>
>     Enhancements could be done on top of this, but first we need to
>     agree on the basic use cases.
>
>      
>
>     I hope this clarifies
>
>     Cheers
>
>     /MCruz
>
>      
>
>     *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve
>     Donovan
>     *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40
>     *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>      
>
>     Maria Cruz,
>
>     I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to
>     have the ability to have a realm report that control the total
>     amount of traffic sent to a realm.  There is certainly an IETF DOC
>     requirement to this effect.
>
>     The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on
>     the resolution of the per client host report discussion).
>
>     - Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.  The host is
>     indicated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying
>     the report.  Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as
>     a front-end to a group of servers.
>
>     - Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a
>     realm without a destination-host AVP in the request message.  Can
>     be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a
>     group of servers.
>
>     - Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm,
>     independent of the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP
>     in the request message.  Can be generated by a server or an
>     agent.  The method for determining the realm state is out of scope
>     for the DOIC document.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>         Hello,
>
>          
>
>         I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two
>         different reports (so called realm-routed and just realm).
>
>         Regards
>
>         /MCruz
>
>          
>
>         *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>         *Steve Donovan
>         *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
>         *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>         *Subject:* [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
>
>          
>
>         I propose the following resolution for issue 23:
>
>
>         Proposal -- Change the name of realm report.  
>
>
>         Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.
>
>
>         Proposal -- Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request"
>         reports to indicate that they apply only to requests targeted
>         to a realm when there is no destination-host AVP in the
>         request.  Specifically, section 4.6 requires updating.
>
>         There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle
>         all transactions to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket
>         number 55.
>
>         Regards,
>
>         Steve
>
>          
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         DiME mailing list
>
>         DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>  
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      Please see inline.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/14 8:26 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">see inline<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:22 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I believe the
          other issue then is whether servers generate RRR reports.<br>
          <br>
          Consider the most basic case where there are no agents.<br>
          <br>
          &nbsp;C1--\<br>
          &nbsp;C2-------S<br>
          &nbsp;C3--/<br>
          <br>
          Is it not appropriate for a server, in this case, to be able
          to send RRRs?<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;no&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><span
            lang="EN-US"><br>
          </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Then we have a bigger disconnect then I thought.&nbsp; I'm pretty
    sure that we had discussed the ability of a server to use what we
    are now calling RRRs to be able to indicate that it does not want to
    take on new sessions.&nbsp; Host reports are used to control the
    mid-session traffic (for session based applications like those used
    in the 3GPP PCC architecture).&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    SRD&gt; I would also assert that PCC is a case where there is a
    strong need for the server to be able to say that it wants to reduce
    the number of new session taken on so that the DRA in that
    architecture can properly route sessions that generate new bindings.<br>
    <br>
    SRD&gt; So, to summarize, I believe that we DO have a requirement to
    allow the server to send RRRs.<br>
    <br>
    SRD&gt; Maybe we need two types of RRRs, one that applies to a
    single server and one that applies to the full realm.&nbsp; Yes Ben,
    these do start to sound like scopes :-) but this can also be
    addressed by either creating separate report types or qualifying the
    RRR report.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4761@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">
            <br>
            In an agent case, the server sending the RRR gives the agent
            the ability to generate an aggregated RRR the covers all
            servers for the application.</span><span
            style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;the
                agent should aggregate received host-type reports and
                convert it into an RRR report&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; This is what an agent would do to generate the proposed new
    "realm" report.&nbsp; I'm skeptical that an agent can make reasonable
    decisions about what RRR report to generate based on host reports
    received.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4761@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">&nbsp; So I guess, there would be a DOIC association
            between the client and the agent use to transport the
            aggregated RRR</span><span style="color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;yes&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">and a DOIC associate between the agent and the
            server used to transport the server specific RRR</span><span
            style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;server
                specific host-type report&lt;/Ulrich&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">.<br>
            <br>
          </span>Steve <o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 3:33 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome
            wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Fine to agree</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed
                  resolution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve, MCruz,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">lets go step by
              step.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m ok to conclude
              on #23 to do the renaming from &#8220;realm report type&#8221; to
              &#8220;realm-routed-request report type&#8221; and clarify that it
              applies to destination-host-less traffic.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Whether or not to
              introduce a 3<sup>rd</sup> report type of &#8220;realm&#8221; is out
              of scope of #23 and subject of #55.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Ulrich </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed
                  resolution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The discussion
              started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to
              my knowledge that discussion is not concluded.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Then we have not
              agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between
              realm and realm-routed.
            </span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Even more, as far
              as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability
              (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing
              service to a realm) for new session establishment. This is
              something we discussed long time ago, and at that point in
              time we tend to agree that it was not required, but up to
              different applications to decide based on realm overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Enhancements could
              be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on the
              basic use cases.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I hope this
              clarifies</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Cheers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                  DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed
                  resolution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
            <br>
            I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement
            to have the ability to have a realm report that control the
            total amount of traffic sent to a realm.&nbsp; There is certainly
            an IETF DOC requirement to this effect.<br>
            <br>
            The proposal is to have three report types (or four
            depending on the resolution of the per client host report
            discussion).<br>
            <br>
            - Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.&nbsp; The
            host is indicated by the origin-host AVP in the answer
            message carrying the report.&nbsp; Can be generated by a server
            or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
            <br>
            - Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent
            to a realm without a destination-host AVP in the request
            message.&nbsp; Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting
            as a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
            <br>
            - Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm,
            independent of the presence or absence of a destination-host
            AVP in the request message.&nbsp; Can be generated by a server or
            an agent.&nbsp; The method for determining the realm state is out
            of scope for the DOIC document.<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz
              Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I do not think we
                have agreed so far on the need to have two different
                reports (so called realm-routed and just realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">
                    DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44<br>
                    <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I propose
              the following resolution for issue 23:<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"
              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Proposal
              &#8211; Change the name of realm report. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"
              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
              Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
                Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on
                &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; reports to indicate that they
                apply only to requests targeted to a realm when there is
                no destination-host AVP in the request.&nbsp; Specifically,
                section 4.6 requires updating.<br>
                <br>
                There is also a proposal to add a new report type to
                handle all transactions to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed
                by ticket number 55.<br>
                <br>
                Regards,<br>
                <br>
                Steve</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Times New Roman ,
                serif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
              Roman , serif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
              Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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I agree with the suggested change.

Steve

On 2/24/14 5:00 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> + 1, except as noted:
>
> On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>> Ulrich,
>>
>> Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:
>>
>> Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.
>>
>> When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for any occurrence of overload at a reporting node.  This, I think, allows us to ignore wraparound issues as wraparound will never happen.  Unless we are worried about a server staying in overload for billions of years (assuming reports with a ten minute validity period refreshed every five minutes).
> s/ any occurrence of overload / the initial occurrence of an overload condition
>
>> The other two statements are good.
>>
>> Steve
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I agree with the
      suggested change.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/24/14 5:00 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:E2257532-C0EE-4D2D-8305-DED5828B4FCC@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">+ 1, except as noted:

On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Ulrich,

Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:

Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.

When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for any occurrence of overload at a reporting node.  This, I think, allows us to ignore wraparound issues as wraparound will never happen.  Unless we are worried about a server staying in overload for billions of years (assuming reports with a ten minute validity period refreshed every five minutes).
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
s/ any occurrence of overload / the initial occurrence of an overload condition

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
The other two statements are good.

Steve
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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I don't think that it is the presence/absence of destination-host in a requ=
est that determines whether a session is new.


From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:23 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org; d=
raft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type

I'm not comfortable with this model that assumes that agents have a better =
understanding then servers on the servers ability to handle new sessions.

Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is not in the n=
etwork?

RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request, generally requests th=
at create new sessions, recognizing that those requests are more expensive =
than what we have referred to as mid-session requests.

Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports but servers sho=
uld be able to send them as well.

Steve
On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents =
generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the react=
ing node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC assoc=
iations with the servers.

Ulrich

From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<ma=
ilto:dime@ietf.org>; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docd=
t-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type

How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (=
host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?

I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need t=
o send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those ag=
gregated reports.

Steve
On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Hi,
I agree with MCruz.

Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-r=
outed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured) th=
at there is no other server in that realm).

Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a =
realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into answe=
r messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as rece=
ived in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.

Ulrich




From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>; draft-docdt-=
dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type

Maria Cruz,

Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding of th=
e meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try to m=
ake Ulrich happy :-) ).

My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the serve=
r does not want to receive new sessions.

Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or=
 a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the netw=
ork need to handle fewer new sessions.

I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can gener=
ate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and=
 their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.

Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.=
  This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and appli=
cations that always rely on realm routed requests.

Everyone, which definition applies?

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

Steve,



See some comments below please.

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20

To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools=
.ietf.org>; srdonovan@usdonovans.com<mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type



#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type



 I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will

 be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual

 name of the report.



 The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the

 reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm

 routed requests sent to the reporting node.



 This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling

 traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that

 Diameter application.

[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overl=
oad.



 Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and

 all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that

 application.



 When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the

 number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The

 server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.

[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.



 Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to

 handle new sessions.



 Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the

 network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the

 throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these

 throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded

 servers.



 The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by

 DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers

 able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of

 requests routed to the overloaded server.



 Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the

 answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report

 from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the

 path) or by an agent and a client.



 Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by

 throttling the requested percentage.






--_000_5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B478BDEMUMBX014nsnin_
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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I don&#821=
7;t think that it is the presence/absence of destination-host in a request =
that determines whether a session is new.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf=
.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot;=
 Overload report type<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I'm not comfortable w=
ith this model that assumes that agents have a better understanding then se=
rvers on the servers ability to handle new sessions.<br>
<br>
Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is not in the n=
etwork?&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request, generally requests th=
at create new sessions, recognizing that those requests are more expensive =
than what we have referred to as mid-session requests.<br>
<br>
Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports but servers sho=
uld be able to send them as well.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My underst=
anding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents generating=
 an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the
 reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC=
 associations with the servers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
<a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com=
</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=
=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">
dime@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">=
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot;=
 Overload report type</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">How do agents learn a=
bout a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (host-less requests) i=
f servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?<br>
<br>
I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need t=
o send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those ag=
gregated reports.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree wi=
th MCruz.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Principle =
is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-routed-requ=
est (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured)
 that there is no other server in that realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Only agent=
s that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a realm will=
 insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into
 answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages a=
s received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ov=
li@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot;=
 Overload report type</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments.&nbsp; We obviously have a different understanding =
of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try=
 to make Ulrich happy :-) ).<br>
<br>
My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the serve=
r does not want to receive new sessions.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or=
 a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the netw=
ork need to handle fewer new sessions.<br>
<br>
I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can gener=
ate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and=
 their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.<br>
<br>
Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.=
&nbsp; This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and =
applications that always rely on realm routed requests.<br>
<br>
Everyone, which definition applies?<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>See some comments below please.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docd=
t-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com"=
>srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot; Overl=
oad report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#57: Handling of &quot;Realm-Routed&quot; Overload report type<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version=
 will<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> be changed to realm-routed.&nbsp; This issue applies independent of t=
he actual<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> name of the report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of re=
alm<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> routed requests sent to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttli=
ng<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for t=
hat<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Diameter application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm =
overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter applicatio=
n and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre> application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.&nbs=
p; The<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able t=
o<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> handle new sessions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but th=
e<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> throttle a percentage of the new session requests.&nbsp; Even when th=
ese<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overload=
ed<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> servers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled =
by<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> DOIC-supporting agents.&nbsp; Agents will understand if there are oth=
er servers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage =
of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> requests routed to the overloaded server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from =
the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> answer before relaying the answer to client.&nbsp; This prevents the =
report<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> path) or by an agent and a client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre> throttling the requested percentage.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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--_000_5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B478BDEMUMBX014nsnin_--


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Ticket #27 - Behavior of agent acting on behalf of Client that does not support DOIC
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ticket #27 - Behavior of agent acting on behalf of Client that does not support DOIC
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Steve, Ben, all,

In my opinion, I think DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY is closer to our purpose.
I find a similarity between a single server getting overloaded (request is =
routed using specific server, not a realm) and returning back TOO_BUSY, and=
 a Realm getting overload and returning back TOO_BUSY. The reason is the sa=
me, the expected "destination" (either one specific host, or whole realm) i=
s not able to serve the request.

Regards
/MCruz

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 3:41
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Ticket #27 - Behavior of agent acting on behalf of Clie=
nt that does not support DOIC


On Feb 24, 2014, at 8:22 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> It looks like DIAMETER-TOO-BUSY fits best for requests throttled because =
of a Realm-Routed-Request (RRR) overload report handled by an agent.

I'm confused. I interpreted 6733 to explicitly forbid DIAMETER_TO_BUSY for =
realm routed requests:=20

"This error MUST only be used when a specific server is requested..."

What am I missing? (Yes, I recognize "... when a specific server is request=
ed..." is vague.)


>=20
> The only other option I see for agent handling of host overload reports i=
s DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY. =20
>    DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY 5012
>       This error is returned when a request is rejected for unspecified
>       reasons.
>=20
> This is the behavior definition:
> If the service cannot be
>    provided by the local realm, then a DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPLY error
>    message MUST be sent within the accounting request; a Diameter client
>    receiving an authorization response for a service that it cannot
>    perform MUST NOT substitute an alternate service and then send
>    accounting requests for the alternate service instead.
>=20
> Or we could use DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_DELIVER  DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_DELIVER=20
> 3002
>=20
>       This error is given when Diameter cannot deliver the message to
>       the destination, either because no host within the realm
>       supporting the required application was available to process the
>       request or because the Destination-Host AVP was given without the
>       associated Destination-Realm AVP.

This seems closer to the right semantics for RRRs.

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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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Hello,

I agree to what is being stated by Ulrich here.

Realm aggregated report is calculated by an agent, based on individual serv=
er host-reports. Then, it is up to each application to determine, based on =
requested traffic reduction, whether it is convenient or not to start new s=
essions. This is application dependent, since load/resources required by a =
session compared to mid session traffic is application dependent. A part fr=
om that, it could be up to some other criteria, like e.g. whether or not mi=
d session traffic should be prioritized against new session creations, what=
 would depend eventually on each application.

Regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 15:49
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Ulrich,

Please see inline.

Steve
On 2/25/14 8:26 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Steve,

see inline

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:22 PM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

I believe the other issue then is whether servers generate RRR reports.

Consider the most basic case where there are no agents.

 C1--\
 C2-------S
 C3--/

Is it not appropriate for a server, in this case, to be able to send RRRs?
<Ulrich>no</Ulrich>
SRD> Then we have a bigger disconnect then I thought.  I'm pretty sure that=
 we had discussed the ability of a server to use what we are now calling RR=
Rs to be able to indicate that it does not want to take on new sessions.  H=
ost reports are used to control the mid-session traffic (for session based =
applications like those used in the 3GPP PCC architecture).

SRD> I would also assert that PCC is a case where there is a strong need fo=
r the server to be able to say that it wants to reduce the number of new se=
ssion taken on so that the DRA in that architecture can properly route sess=
ions that generate new bindings.

SRD> So, to summarize, I believe that we DO have a requirement to allow the=
 server to send RRRs.

SRD> Maybe we need two types of RRRs, one that applies to a single server a=
nd one that applies to the full realm.  Yes Ben, these do start to sound li=
ke scopes :-) but this can also be addressed by either creating separate re=
port types or qualifying the RRR report.


In an agent case, the server sending the RRR gives the agent the ability to=
 generate an aggregated RRR the covers all servers for the application.
<Ulrich>the agent should aggregate received host-type reports and convert i=
t into an RRR report</Ulrich>
SRD> This is what an agent would do to generate the proposed new "realm" re=
port.  I'm skeptical that an agent can make reasonable decisions about what=
 RRR report to generate based on host reports received.

  So I guess, there would be a DOIC association between the client and the =
agent use to transport the aggregated RRR
<Ulrich>yes</Ulrich>
and a DOIC associate between the agent and the server used to transport the=
 server specific RRR
<Ulrich>server specific host-type report</Ulrich>
.

Steve
On 2/25/14 3:33 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Fine to agree

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]
Sent: martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Steve, MCruz,

lets go step by step.


I'm ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from "realm report type" to "r=
ealm-routed-request report type" and clarify that it applies to destination=
-host-less traffic.


Whether or not to introduce a 3rd report type of "realm" is out of scope of=
 #23 and subject of #55.


Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Steve,

The discussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my =
knowledge that discussion is not concluded.
Then we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between =
realm and realm-routed.
Even more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability=
 (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service to a realm=
) for new session establishment. This is something we discussed long time a=
go, and at that point in time we tend to agree that it was not required, bu=
t up to different applications to decide based on realm overload.
Enhancements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on th=
e basic use cases.

I hope this clarifies
Cheers
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

Maria Cruz,

I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.  There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect.

The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).

- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.  The host is indicate=
d by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.  Can be=
 generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of s=
ervers.

- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.  Can be generated by a =
server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.

- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.  =
Can be generated by a server or an agent.  The method for determining the r=
ealm state is out of scope for the DOIC document.

Steve
On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello,

I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different repo=
rts (so called realm-routed and just realm).
Regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution

I propose the following resolution for issue 23:



Proposal - Change the name of realm report.

Proposed name - "Realm-Routed-Request" report.

Proposal - Update all discussion on "Realm-Routed-Request" reports to indic=
ate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm when there is no d=
estination-host AVP in the request.  Specifically, section 4.6 requires upd=
ating.

There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.

Regards,

Steve


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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello=
, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I agr=
ee to what is being stated by Ulrich here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Realm=
 aggregated report is calculated by an agent, based on individual server ho=
st-reports. Then, it is up to each application to determine, based on reque=
sted traffic reduction, whether it is
 convenient or not to start new sessions. This is application dependent, si=
nce load/resources required by a session compared to mid session traffic is=
 application dependent. A part from that, it could be up to some other crit=
eria, like e.g. whether or not mid
 session traffic should be prioritized against new session creations, what =
would depend eventually on each application.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 15:49<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
<br>
Please see inline.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 8:26 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve=
,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">see i=
nline</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I believe the other i=
ssue then is whether servers generate RRR reports.<br>
<br>
Consider the most basic case where there are no agents.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;C1--\<br>
&nbsp;C2-------S<br>
&nbsp;C3--/<br>
<br>
Is it not appropriate for a server, in this case, to be able to send RRRs?<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;no&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i><=
/b><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">SRD&gt; Then we have a bigger disconnect then I thoug=
ht.&nbsp; I'm pretty sure that we had discussed the ability of a server to =
use what we are now calling RRRs to be able to indicate that it
 does not want to take on new sessions.&nbsp; Host reports are used to cont=
rol the mid-session traffic (for session based applications like those used=
 in the 3GPP PCC architecture).&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
SRD&gt; I would also assert that PCC is a case where there is a strong need=
 for the server to be able to say that it wants to reduce the number of new=
 session taken on so that the DRA in that architecture can properly route s=
essions that generate new bindings.<br>
<br>
SRD&gt; So, to summarize, I believe that we DO have a requirement to allow =
the server to send RRRs.<br>
<br>
SRD&gt; Maybe we need two types of RRRs, one that applies to a single serve=
r and one that applies to the full realm.&nbsp; Yes Ben, these do start to =
sound like scopes :-) but this can also be addressed by either creating sep=
arate report types or qualifying the RRR
 report.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
In an agent case, the server sending the RRR gives the agent the ability to=
 generate an aggregated RRR the covers all servers for the application.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;the agent should aggregate re=
ceived host-type reports and convert it into an RRR report&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</=
span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">SRD&gt; This is what an agent would do to generate th=
e proposed new &quot;realm&quot; report.&nbsp; I'm skeptical that an agent =
can make reasonable decisions about what RRR report to generate based on ho=
st
 reports received.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp; So I guess, th=
ere would be a DOIC association between the client and the agent use to tra=
nsport the aggregated RRR<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;yes&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i>=
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">and a DOIC associate =
between the agent and the server used to transport the server specific RRR<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&lt;Ulrich&gt;server specific host-type rep=
ort&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">.<br>
<br>
Steve <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 3:33 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Fine =
to agree</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16<br>
<b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf=
.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve=
, MCruz,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">lets =
go step by step.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I&#82=
17;m ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from &#8220;realm report type=
&#8221; to &#8220;realm-routed-request report type&#8221; and clarify that =
it applies to destination-host-less traffic.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Wheth=
er or not to introduce a 3<sup>rd</sup> report type of &#8220;realm&#8221; =
is out of scope of #23 and subject of #55.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Ulric=
h </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Steve=
,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">The d=
iscussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and to my knowl=
edge that discussion is not concluded.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Then =
we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation between realm=
 and realm-routed.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Even =
more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the ability (by =
agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service to a realm) for=
 new session establishment. This is
 something we discussed long time ago, and at that point in time we tend to=
 agree that it was not required, but up to different applications to decide=
 based on realm overload.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Enhan=
cements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree on the bas=
ic use cases.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I hop=
e this clarifies</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Cheer=
s</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have the ab=
ility to have a realm report that control the total amount of traffic sent =
to a realm.&nbsp; There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to this effect=
.<br>
<br>
The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the resolu=
tion of the per client host report discussion).<br>
<br>
- Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.&nbsp; The host is ind=
icated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the report.&nb=
sp; Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a =
group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a realm wit=
hout a destination-host AVP in the request message.&nbsp; Can be generated =
by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of servers.<br>
<br>
- Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, independent of =
the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the request message.&n=
bsp; Can be generated by a server or an agent.&nbsp; The method for determi=
ning the realm state is out of scope for the
 DOIC document.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello=
,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I do =
not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different reports (=
so called realm-routed and just realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Regar=
ds</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">/MCru=
z</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I propose the followi=
ng resolution for issue 23:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Proposal &#8211; Change the name of realm report. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><br>
Proposed name - &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221; report.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot=
;serif&quot;"><br>
Proposal &#8211; Update all discussion on &#8220;Realm-Routed-Request&#8221=
; reports to indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm =
when there is no destination-host AVP in the request.&nbsp; Specifically, s=
ection 4.6 requires updating.<br>
<br>
There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all transaction=
s to a realm.&nbsp; This is addressed by ticket number 55.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman , s=
erif&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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Steve, Ben,

for my clarification, your proposal is to say

***
Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.

When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence num=
ber contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including =
over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at =
1 for the initial occurrence of an overload condition at a reporting node.
***

If so, what is meant by "initial occurrence of an overload condition"?

I guess it means something like moving from no overload to overload after a=
 sufficiently long periode of no overload

Please clarify

Ulrich


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:02 PM
To: Ben Campbell
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status

I agree with the suggested change.

Steve
On 2/24/14 5:00 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
+ 1, except as noted:

On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

Ulrich,

Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:

Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.

When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence num=
ber contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including =
over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at =
1 for any occurrence of overload at a reporting node.  This, I think, allow=
s us to ignore wraparound issues as wraparound will never happen.  Unless w=
e are worried about a server staying in overload for billions of years (ass=
uming reports with a ten minute validity period refreshed every five minute=
s).

s/ any occurrence of overload / the initial occurrence of an overload condi=
tion


The other two statements are good.

Steve




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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Ulrich,

You of course are correct in the general sense.  There are, however,
many examples where the initial request is sent without the
destination-host and subsequent requests are sent with.

I do admit to over generalizing.  The basic argument is still the same,
there are applications where requests that do not have a
destination-host use that for routing the request that creates the
session on one of a group of servers.  The destination-host is then used
to route subsequent session-associated requests to the correct server. 
The session creating requests represent more work than
session-associated requests and it is thus a valid overload management
strategy to push back on those before pushing back on session-associated
requests.

Steve

On 2/25/14 9:36 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> I don't think that it is the presence/absence of destination-host in a
> request that determines whether a session is new.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:23 PM
> *To:* Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome;
> dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload
> report type
>
>  
>
> I'm not comfortable with this model that assumes that agents have a
> better understanding then servers on the servers ability to handle new
> sessions.
>
> Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is not in
> the network? 
>
> RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request, generally
> requests that create new sessions, recognizing that those requests are
> more expensive than what we have referred to as mid-session requests.
>
> Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports but
> servers should be able to send them as well.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>     My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated
>     reports. Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC
>     association towards the reacting node) take as an input the
>     host-type reports received on the DOIC associations with the servers.
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>     *From:*ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
>     *To:* Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome;
>     dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>;
>     draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed"
>     Overload report type
>
>      
>
>     How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new
>     sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent
>     realm-routed-request reports?
>
>     I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the
>     servers need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around
>     them and generate those aggregated reports.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>         Hi,
>
>         I agree with MCruz.
>
>          
>
>         Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report
>         type of realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server
>         knows (i.e.is configured) that there is no other server in
>         that realm).
>
>          
>
>         Only agents that are configured to take the role of a
>         reporting node for a realm will insert OLRs with report type
>         of realm-routed-requests into answer messages and the content
>         should be the aggregation of percentages as received in host
>         type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.
>
>          
>
>         Ulrich
>
>          
>
>          
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext
>         Steve Donovan
>         *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
>         *To:* Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
>         <mailto:dime@ietf.org>; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed"
>         Overload report type
>
>          
>
>         Maria Cruz,
>
>         Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different
>         understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report
>         (new attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>
>         My definition is that it is a report generated by the server
>         when the server does not want to receive new sessions. 
>
>         Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by
>         an agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?)
>         to indicate that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>
>         I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an
>         agent can generate a realm-routed-request report without
>         knowing the status of servers and their ability to handle new
>         Diameter sessions.
>
>         Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based
>         applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session
>         based applications and applications that always rely on realm
>         routed requests.
>
>         Everyone, which definition applies?
>
>         Steve
>
>         On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>             Steve,
>
>              
>
>             See some comments below please.
>
>             /MCruz
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
>
>             Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
>
>             To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org <mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>; srdonovan@usdonovans.com <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>
>             Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>
>              
>
>             #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>
>              
>
>              I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will
>
>              be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual
>
>              name of the report.
>
>              
>
>              The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
>
>              reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm
>
>              routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>
>              
>
>              This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling
>
>              traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that
>
>              Diameter application.
>
>             [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.
>
>              
>
>              Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and
>
>              all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>
>              application.
>
>              
>
>              When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the
>
>              number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The
>
>              server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
>
>             [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
>
>              
>
>              Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to
>
>              handle new sessions.
>
>              
>
>              Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the
>
>              network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the
>
>              throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>
>              throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded
>
>              servers.
>
>              
>
>              The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by
>
>              DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers
>
>              able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of
>
>              requests routed to the overloaded server.
>
>              
>
>              Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the
>
>              answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report
>
>              from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
>
>              path) or by an agent and a client.
>
>              
>
>              Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>
>              throttling the requested percentage.
>
>              
>
>          
>
>      
>
>  
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      You of course are correct in the general sense.&nbsp; There are,
      however, many examples where the initial request is sent without
      the destination-host and subsequent requests are sent with.<br>
      <br>
      I do admit to over generalizing.&nbsp; The basic argument is still the
      same, there are applications where requests that do not have a
      destination-host use that for routing the request that creates the
      session on one of a group of servers.&nbsp; The destination-host is
      then used to route subsequent session-associated requests to the
      correct server.&nbsp; The session creating requests represent more work
      than session-associated requests and it is thus a valid overload
      management strategy to push back on those before pushing back on
      session-associated requests.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/14 9:36 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I don&#8217;t think that it is the presence/absence
            of destination-host in a request that determines whether a
            session is new.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> ext Steve Donovan
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:23 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz
                Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of
                "Realm-Routed" Overload report type<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I'm not
          comfortable with this model that assumes that agents have a
          better understanding then servers on the servers ability to
          handle new sessions.<br>
          <br>
          Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is
          not in the network?&nbsp;
          <br>
          <br>
          RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request,
          generally requests that create new sessions, recognizing that
          those requests are more expensive than what we have referred
          to as mid-session requests.<br>
          <br>
          Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports
          but servers should be able to send them as well.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
            DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">My understanding is that RRR reports are
              always aggregated reports. Agents generating an RRR report
              (for use on the DOIC association towards the reacting
              node) take as an input the host-type reports received on
              the DOIC associations with the servers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US"> ext Steve Donovan [<a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz
                  Bartolome; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">
                    dime@ietf.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of
                  "Realm-Routed" Overload report type</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">How do
            agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new
            sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent
            realm-routed-request reports?<br>
            <br>
            I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the
            servers need to send RRR reports so the agent can route
            around them and generate those aggregated reports.<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
              - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">I agree with MCruz.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Principle is that the server never sends
                OLRs with a report type of realm-routed-request (exept
                the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured) that
                there is no other server in that realm).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Only agents that are configured to take the
                role of a reporting node for a realm will insert OLRs
                with report type of realm-routed-requests into answer
                messages and the content should be the aggregation of
                percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the
                servers in the realm.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a
                      moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>;
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of
                    "Realm-Routed" Overload report type</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria
              Cruz,<br>
              <br>
              Thanks for the comments.&nbsp; We obviously have a different
              understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request
              report (new attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy
              :-) ).<br>
              <br>
              My definition is that it is a report generated by the
              server when the server does not want to receive new
              sessions.&nbsp;
              <br>
              <br>
              Your definition appears to be that it is a report
              generated by an agent (or a server is there are no agents
              in the network?) to indicate that the network need to
              handle fewer new sessions.<br>
              <br>
              I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that
              an agent can generate a realm-routed-request report
              without knowing the status of servers and their ability to
              handle new Diameter sessions.<br>
              <br>
              Note that I'm discussing this in the context of
              session-based applications.&nbsp; This could also be applied to
              pseudo session based applications and applications that
              always rely on realm routed requests.<br>
              <br>
              Everyone, which definition applies?<br>
              <br>
              Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz
                Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>Steve,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>See some comments below please.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> be changed to realm-routed.&nbsp; This issue applies independent of the actual<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> name of the report.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> routed requests sent to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> Diameter application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> application.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> handle new sessions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> throttle a percentage of the new session requests.&nbsp; Even when these<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> servers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> DOIC-supporting agents.&nbsp; Agents will understand if there are other servers<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> requests routed to the overloaded server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> answer before relaying the answer to client.&nbsp; This prevents the report<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> path) or by an agent and a client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> throttling the requested percentage.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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On Feb 25, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Steve, Ben,
>=20
> for my clarification, your proposal is to say
>=20
> ***
> Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.
>=20
> When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the =
sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it =
applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows =
sequence numbers to start at 1 for the initial occurrence of an overload =
condition at a reporting node.
> ***
>=20
> If so, what is meant by "initial occurrence of an overload condition"?
>=20
> I guess it means something like moving from no overload to overload =
after a sufficiently long periode of no overload

For the purpose of this discussion, yes.

Thanks!

Ben.=


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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
In-Reply-To: <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B473F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 12:51:34 -0600
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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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I think that both models are reasonable deployments. Our definitions of =
HRR and RRR should support both approaches. I say this with the caveat =
that, if a server sends an RRR report, it is claiming authoritative =
knowledge of all servers in the realm.

Agents sending reports to clients can take _any_ input they want to. =
That could be host reports from servers, RRR reports from servers, =
Diameter errors, transport errors, and any number of proprietary =
methods.

On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. =
Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards =
the reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on =
the DOIC associations with the servers.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; =
dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
> =20
> How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new =
sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request =
reports?
>=20
> I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers =
need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate =
those aggregated reports.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Hi,
> I agree with MCruz.
> =20
> Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of =
realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is =
configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
> =20
> Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node =
for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests =
into answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of =
percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the =
realm.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve =
Donovan
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org; =
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
> =20
> Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding =
of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to =
try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>=20
> My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the =
server does not want to receive new sessions. =20
>=20
> Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an =
agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate =
that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>=20
> I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can =
generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of =
servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>=20
> Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based =
applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based =
applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.
>=20
> Everyone, which definition applies?
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Steve,
> =20
> See some comments below please.
> /MCruz
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue =
tracker
> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
> To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type
> =20
> #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
> =20
>  I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version =
will
>  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the =
actual
>  name of the report.
> =20
>  The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
>  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of =
realm
>  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
> =20
>  This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client =
throttling
>  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for =
that
>  Diameter application.
> [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm =
overload.
> =20
>  Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter =
application and
>  all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>  application.
> =20
>  When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease =
the
>  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  =
The
>  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
> [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
> =20
>  Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able =
to
>  handle new sessions.
> =20
>  Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in =
the
>  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but =
the
>  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non =
overloaded
>  servers.
> =20
>  The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled =
by
>  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other =
servers
>  able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage =
of
>  requests routed to the overloaded server.
> =20
>  Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from =
the
>  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the =
report
>  from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
>  path) or by an agent and a client.
> =20
>  Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>  throttling the requested percentage.
> =20
> =20
> =20


From nobody Tue Feb 25 10:56:11 2014
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References: <066.89ca14db25e51cc9abb1531f0f99f646@trac.tools.ietf.org> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784BB3@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <530B9E01.3050506@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B45D9@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <530C969C.3060107@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B473F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <530CA759.6070302@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B478B@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/bvMDMkOVA3bbpDwDGcYzp_-CYiA
Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org" <draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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On Feb 25, 2014, at 9:36 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> I don=92t think that it is the presence/absence of destination-host in =
a request that determines whether a session is new.

That's absolutely true. But that presence or absence _does_ effect =
request routing, and by extension, the set of requests that become =
candidates for overload abatement.

But I agree that the absence destination-host is a poor proxy for =
determining whether a request will create a session. That's application =
(and deployment) specific. Our definitions of host and RRR reports =
should be application independent.

> =20
> =20
> From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:23 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; =
dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
> =20
> I'm not comfortable with this model that assumes that agents have a =
better understanding then servers on the servers ability to handle new =
sessions.
>=20
> Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is not in =
the network? =20
>=20
> RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request, generally =
requests that create new sessions, recognizing that those requests are =
more expensive than what we have referred to as mid-session requests.
>=20
> Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports but =
servers should be able to send them as well.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. =
Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards =
the reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on =
the DOIC associations with the servers.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; =
dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
> =20
> How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new =
sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request =
reports?
>=20
> I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers =
need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate =
those aggregated reports.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Hi,
> I agree with MCruz.
> =20
> Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of =
realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is =
configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
> =20
> Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node =
for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests =
into answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of =
percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the =
realm.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve =
Donovan
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org; =
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
> =20
> Maria Cruz,
>=20
> Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding =
of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to =
try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>=20
> My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the =
server does not want to receive new sessions. =20
>=20
> Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an =
agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate =
that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>=20
> I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can =
generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of =
servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>=20
> Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based =
applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based =
applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.
>=20
> Everyone, which definition applies?
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Steve,
> =20
> See some comments below please.
> /MCruz
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue =
tracker
> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
> To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report =
type
> =20
> #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
> =20
>  I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version =
will
>  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the =
actual
>  name of the report.
> =20
>  The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
>  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of =
realm
>  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
> =20
>  This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client =
throttling
>  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for =
that
>  Diameter application.
> [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm =
overload.
> =20
>  Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter =
application and
>  all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>  application.
> =20
>  When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease =
the
>  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  =
The
>  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
> [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
> =20
>  Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able =
to
>  handle new sessions.
> =20
>  Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in =
the
>  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but =
the
>  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non =
overloaded
>  servers.
> =20
>  The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled =
by
>  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other =
servers
>  able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage =
of
>  requests routed to the overloaded server.
> =20
>  Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from =
the
>  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the =
report
>  from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
>  path) or by an agent and a client.
> =20
>  Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>  throttling the requested percentage.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20


From nobody Tue Feb 25 11:01:11 2014
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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:00:52 -0600
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References: <066.89ca14db25e51cc9abb1531f0f99f646@trac.tools.ietf.org> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784BB3@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <530B9E01.3050506@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B45D9@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <530C969C.3060107@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B473F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <530CA759.6070302@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B478B@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <530CC379.8060402@usdonovans.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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On Feb 25, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Ulrich,
>=20
> You of course are correct in the general sense.  There are, however, =
many examples where the initial request is sent without the =
destination-host and subsequent requests are sent with.

I don't think you can depend on that. Diameter allows you to insert a =
Destination-Host avp anytime you think a request needs to be handled by =
a particular server. Unless an application forbids it, that means any =
given implementation/deployment could decide to put a Destination-Host =
in an "initial" request. If doing that breaks treatment of the report =
types, then we need to normatively forbid it, or adjust around the =
possibility.

>=20
> I do admit to over generalizing.  The basic argument is still the =
same, there are applications where requests that do not have a =
destination-host use that for routing the request that creates the =
session on one of a group of servers.  The destination-host is then used =
to route subsequent session-associated requests to the correct server.  =
The session creating requests represent more work than =
session-associated requests and it is thus a valid overload management =
strategy to push back on those before pushing back on session-associated =
requests.
>=20

I think that, if we want to be able to request downstream nodes to =
reduce new session requests, but not reduce mid-session requests, we =
need to explicitly indicate that, and not try to infer that from =
realm-routing vs host-routing Explicit indication could take the form of =
a new report type, or some markup in an existing report type.

> Steve
>=20
> On 2/25/14 9:36 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> I don=92t think that it is the presence/absence of destination-host =
in a request that determines whether a session is new.
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:23 PM
>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; =
dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
>> =20
>> I'm not comfortable with this model that assumes that agents have a =
better understanding then servers on the servers ability to handle new =
sessions.
>>=20
>> Are you also saying that RRRs can never be sent if an agent is not in =
the network? =20
>>=20
>> RRRs are a way to control a specific type of request, generally =
requests that create new sessions, recognizing that those requests are =
more expensive than what we have referred to as mid-session requests.
>>=20
>> Yes, agents should be able to create aggregated RRR reports but =
servers should be able to send them as well.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/25/14 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. =
Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards =
the reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on =
the DOIC associations with the servers.
>> =20
>> Ulrich
>> =20
>> From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; =
dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
>> =20
>> How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new =
sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request =
reports?
>>=20
>> I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers =
need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate =
those aggregated reports.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I agree with MCruz.
>> =20
>> Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of =
realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is =
configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
>> =20
>> Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node =
for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests =
into answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of =
percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the =
realm.
>> =20
>> Ulrich
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve =
Donovan
>> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org; =
draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
>> =20
>> Maria Cruz,
>>=20
>> Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding =
of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to =
try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>>=20
>> My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the =
server does not want to receive new sessions. =20
>>=20
>> Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an =
agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate =
that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>>=20
>> I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can =
generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of =
servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>>=20
>> Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based =
applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based =
applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.
>>=20
>> Everyone, which definition applies?
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>> Steve,
>> =20
>> See some comments below please.
>> /MCruz
>> =20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue =
tracker
>> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
>> To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
>> =20
>> #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>> =20
>>  I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 =
version will
>>  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the =
actual
>>  name of the report.
>> =20
>>  The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
>>  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of =
realm
>>  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>> =20
>>  This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client =
throttling
>>  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for =
that
>>  Diameter application.
>> [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm =
overload.
>> =20
>>  Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter =
application and
>>  all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>>  application.
>> =20
>>  When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease =
the
>>  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  =
The
>>  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
>> [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
>> =20
>>  Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able =
to
>>  handle new sessions.
>> =20
>>  Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in =
the
>>  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but =
the
>>  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>>  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non =
overloaded
>>  servers.
>> =20
>>  The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled =
by
>>  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other =
servers
>>  able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage =
of
>>  requests routed to the overloaded server.
>> =20
>>  Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from =
the
>>  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the =
report
>>  from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in =
the
>>  path) or by an agent and a client.
>> =20
>>  Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>>  throttling the requested percentage.
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>=20
>=20


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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:03:42 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>,  "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Ben,

I'm asserting that there are valid use cases (3GPP PCC for one) for a
server sending a RRR that only impacts realm routed requests being sent
to that server.  This is different than a RRR that reports on all realm
routed requests sent to any server in the realm.

Steve


On 2/25/14 12:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> I think that both models are reasonable deployments. Our definitions of HRR and RRR should support both approaches. I say this with the caveat that, if a server sends an RRR report, it is claiming authoritative knowledge of all servers in the realm.
>
> Agents sending reports to clients can take _any_ input they want to. That could be host reports from servers, RRR reports from servers, Diameter errors, transport errors, and any number of proprietary methods.
>
> On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>> My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC associations with the servers.
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>> From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com] 
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>>  
>> How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?
>>
>> I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those aggregated reports.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I agree with MCruz.
>>  
>> Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
>>  
>> Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.
>>  
>> Ulrich
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>>  
>> Maria Cruz,
>>
>> Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>>
>> My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the server does not want to receive new sessions.  
>>
>> Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>>
>> I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>>
>> Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.
>>
>> Everyone, which definition applies?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>> Steve,
>>  
>> See some comments below please.
>> /MCruz
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
>> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
>> To: draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>>  
>> #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>>  
>>  I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will
>>  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual
>>  name of the report.
>>  
>>  The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
>>  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm
>>  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>>  
>>  This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling
>>  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that
>>  Diameter application.
>> [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.
>>  
>>  Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and
>>  all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>>  application.
>>  
>>  When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the
>>  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The
>>  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
>> [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
>>  
>>  Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to
>>  handle new sessions.
>>  
>>  Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the
>>  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the
>>  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>>  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded
>>  servers.
>>  
>>  The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by
>>  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers
>>  able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of
>>  requests routed to the overloaded server.
>>  
>>  Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the
>>  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report
>>  from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
>>  path) or by an agent and a client.
>>  
>>  Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>>  throttling the requested percentage.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ben,<br>
      <br>
      I'm asserting that there are valid use cases (3GPP PCC for one)
      for a server sending a RRR that only impacts realm routed requests
      being sent to that server.&nbsp; This is different than a RRR that
      reports on all realm routed requests sent to any server in the
      realm.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/14 12:51 PM, Ben Campbell
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:59BC706B-A39F-4682-AEAC-AC3808ADECBE@nostrum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I think that both models are reasonable deployments. Our definitions of HRR and RRR should support both approaches. I say this with the caveat that, if a server sends an RRR report, it is claiming authoritative knowledge of all servers in the realm.

Agents sending reports to clients can take _any_ input they want to. That could be host reports from servers, RRR reports from servers, Diameter errors, transport errors, and any number of proprietary methods.

On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC associations with the servers.
 
Ulrich
 
From: ext Steve Donovan [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
 
How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?

I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those aggregated reports.

Steve

On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Hi,
I agree with MCruz.
 
Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
 
Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.
 
Ulrich
 
 
 
 
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
 
Maria Cruz,

Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).

My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the server does not want to receive new sessions.  

Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.

I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.

Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.

Everyone, which definition applies?

Steve

On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Steve,
 
See some comments below please.
/MCruz
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
 
#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
 
 I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 version will
 be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the actual
 name of the report.
 
 The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that the
 reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of realm
 routed requests sent to the reporting node.
 
 This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client throttling
 traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for that
 Diameter application.
[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.
 
 Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter application and
 all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
 application.
 
 When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease the
 number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  The
 server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
 
 Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able to
 handle new sessions.
 
 Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in the
 network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but the
 throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
 throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non overloaded
 servers.
 
 The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be handled by
 DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other servers
 able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the percentage of
 requests routed to the overloaded server.
 
 Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request from the
 answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the report
 from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in the
 path) or by an agent and a client.
 
 Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
 throttling the requested percentage.
 
 
 
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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On Feb 25, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Ben,
>=20
> I'm asserting that there are valid use cases (3GPP PCC for one) for a =
server sending a RRR that only impacts realm routed requests being sent =
to that server.  This is different than a RRR that reports on all realm =
routed requests sent to any server in the realm.

Then that is something different than they way I expected RRR reports =
(and I assume others) expected them to be used, and I think it would =
give incorrect behavior for other use cases. (1)

For example, lets assume a client knows about (either through =
configuration or dynamic discovery) two next hop destinations (A and B)  =
that can handle the Foo realm for a given application. It, at least =
initially, has no idea if those destinations are agents or servers. If =
that client receives an RRR OLR from A, is it allowed (or even expected) =
 to shift load to B? My intent for the RRR report type, based on our =
early discussions of the mixed-state scenario, was no. But I think the =
way you describe it, the answer would be yes.

I think we are talking about two distinct use cases. One is reporting =
overload that impacts the entire pool of servers that handle a =
particular realm+application. Another is is to allow reporting of =
overload that is created due to some number-of-session constrained =
resource. I agree both use cases are interesting, and potentially =
needed. But I don't think a single report type, without further =
modification, can handle both use cases.=20

I also think a single host could be session-constrained, and a pool of =
servers handling a realm could become session constrained. That suggests =
we need a way of saying "reduce (new) sessions" that can work for both =
host and RRR reports. That could be a separate algorithm, or some markup =
that says "please reduce sessions". =20

(1) To some degree, I think we are suffering from our choice to use =
report-types to distinguish these sort of semantics, rather than the =
scope concept in the Roach draft. The fundamental difference is an OLR =
could combine multiple scopes (e.g. "new session for realm Foo at host =
A"  , but can only have one type. (e.g. "realm foo" or "host a".)

>=20
> Steve
>=20
>=20
> On 2/25/14 12:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> I think that both models are reasonable deployments. Our definitions =
of HRR and RRR should support both approaches. I say this with the =
caveat that, if a server sends an RRR report, it is claiming =
authoritative knowledge of all servers in the realm.
>>=20
>> Agents sending reports to clients can take _any_ input they want to. =
That could be host reports from servers, RRR reports from servers, =
Diameter errors, transport errors, and any number of proprietary =
methods.
>>=20
>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)=20
>> <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. =
Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards =
the reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on =
the DOIC associations with the servers.
>>> =20
>>> Ulrich
>>> =20
>>> From: ext Steve Donovan [
>>> mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>>> ]=20
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
>>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome;=20
>>> dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
>>> =20
>>> How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new =
sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request =
reports?
>>>=20
>>> I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers =
need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate =
those aggregated reports.
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I agree with MCruz.
>>> =20
>>> Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of =
realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is =
configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
>>> =20
>>> Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node =
for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests =
into answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of =
percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the =
realm.
>>> =20
>>> Ulrich
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> From: DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>>> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
>>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome;=20
>>> dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
>>> =20
>>> Maria Cruz,
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different =
understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt =
at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>>>=20
>>> My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when =
the server does not want to receive new sessions. =20
>>>=20
>>> Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an =
agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate =
that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>>>=20
>>> I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent =
can generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of =
servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>>>=20
>>> Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based =
applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based =
applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.
>>>=20
>>> Everyone, which definition applies?
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>>> Steve,
>>> =20
>>> See some comments below please.
>>> /MCruz
>>> =20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>> ] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
>>> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
>>> To:=20
>>> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>>>=20
>>> Cc:=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload =
report type
>>> =20
>>> #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>>> =20
>>>  I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 =
version will
>>>  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies independent of the =
actual
>>>  name of the report.
>>> =20
>>>  The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that =
the
>>>  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage of =
realm
>>>  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>>> =20
>>>  This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client =
throttling
>>>  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of servers for =
that
>>>  Diameter application.
>>> [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the =
realm overload.
>>> =20
>>>  Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter =
application and
>>>  all of those server are able to handle any transaction for that
>>>  application.
>>> =20
>>>  When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease =
the
>>>  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed requests.  =
The
>>>  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
>>> [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed =
reports.
>>> =20
>>>  Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able =
to
>>>  handle new sessions.
>>> =20
>>>  Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in =
the
>>>  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice but =
the
>>>  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even when these
>>>  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the non =
overloaded
>>>  servers.
>>> =20
>>>  The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be =
handled by
>>>  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there are other =
servers
>>>  able to handle the new session and, if so, can adjust the =
percentage of
>>>  requests routed to the overloaded server.
>>> =20
>>>  Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request =
from the
>>>  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This prevents the =
report
>>>  from being acted on by either multiple agents (if multiple are in =
the
>>>  path) or by an agent and a client.
>>> =20
>>>  Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by
>>>  throttling the requested percentage.
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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Ulrich,

Yes, with that period being long enough for the reporting node to be
confident that all previously sent overload reports have expired.

Steve

On 2/25/14 10:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Steve, Ben,
>
> for my clarification, your proposal is to say
>
> ***
> Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.
>
> When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for the initial occurrence of an overload condition at a reporting node.
> ***
>
> If so, what is meant by "initial occurrence of an overload condition"?
>
> I guess it means something like moving from no overload to overload after a sufficiently long periode of no overload
>
> Please clarify
>
> Ulrich
>
>
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:02 PM
> To: Ben Campbell
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
>
> I agree with the suggested change.
>
> Steve
> On 2/24/14 5:00 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> + 1, except as noted:
>
> On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
> Ulrich,
>
> Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:
>
> Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.
>
> When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for any occurrence of overload at a reporting node.  This, I think, allows us to ignore wraparound issues as wraparound will never happen.  Unless we are worried about a server staying in overload for billions of years (assuming reports with a ten minute validity period refreshed every five minutes).
>
> s/ any occurrence of overload / the initial occurrence of an overload condition
>
>
> The other two statements are good.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>


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<html>
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      Yes, with that period being long enough for the reporting node to
      be confident that all previously sent overload reports have
      expired.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/14 10:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B47C2@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Steve, Ben,

for my clarification, your proposal is to say

***
Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.

When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for the initial occurrence of an overload condition at a reporting node.
***

If so, what is meant by "initial occurrence of an overload condition"?

I guess it means something like moving from no overload to overload after a sufficiently long periode of no overload

Please clarify

Ulrich


From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:02 PM
To: Ben Campbell
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status

I agree with the suggested change.

Steve
On 2/24/14 5:00 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
+ 1, except as noted:

On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

Ulrich,

Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:

Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.

When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for any occurrence of overload at a reporting node.  This, I think, allows us to ignore wraparound issues as wraparound will never happen.  Unless we are worried about a server staying in overload for billions of years (assuming reports with a ten minute validity period refreshed every five minutes).

s/ any occurrence of overload / the initial occurrence of an overload condition


The other two statements are good.

Steve




</pre>
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    <br>
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--------------080203010806070409000108--


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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
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I think limiting RRR reports to agents is too restrictive. I think any =
node that has knowledge of the overload state of the realm should be =
able to send an RRR report. I concur that this would typically be done =
by agents, but if an operator chooses to deploy servers that share =
overload state so that any given server can report on the realm, we =
should let them. It would be better to say that aggregate RRR reports =
should only be sent by nodes that actually have an aggregate knowledge =
of the realm.

I recognize it's hard for a server to know if it's knowledge is =
complete. Perhaps there are servers it doesn't know about. But I think =
this is also true of agents--perhaps there are other agents that have =
other servers behind them that the first agent doesn't know about.=20

On Feb 25, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> =20
> I agree to what is being stated by Ulrich here.
> =20
> Realm aggregated report is calculated by an agent, based on individual =
server host-reports. Then, it is up to each application to determine, =
based on requested traffic reduction, whether it is convenient or not to =
start new sessions. This is application dependent, since load/resources =
required by a session compared to mid session traffic is application =
dependent. A part from that, it could be up to some other criteria, like =
e.g. whether or not mid session traffic should be prioritized against =
new session creations, what would depend eventually on each application.
> =20
> Regards
> /MCruz
> =20
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
> Sent: martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 15:49
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
> =20
> Ulrich,
>=20
> Please see inline.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/25/14 8:26 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Steve,
> =20
> see inline
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve =
Donovan
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:22 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
> =20
> I believe the other issue then is whether servers generate RRR =
reports.
>=20
> Consider the most basic case where there are no agents.
>=20
>  C1--\
>  C2-------S
>  C3--/
>=20
> Is it not appropriate for a server, in this case, to be able to send =
RRRs?
>=20
> <Ulrich>no</Ulrich>
>=20
> SRD> Then we have a bigger disconnect then I thought.  I'm pretty sure =
that we had discussed the ability of a server to use what we are now =
calling RRRs to be able to indicate that it does not want to take on new =
sessions.  Host reports are used to control the mid-session traffic (for =
session based applications like those used in the 3GPP PCC =
architecture). =20
>=20
> SRD> I would also assert that PCC is a case where there is a strong =
need for the server to be able to say that it wants to reduce the number =
of new session taken on so that the DRA in that architecture can =
properly route sessions that generate new bindings.
>=20
> SRD> So, to summarize, I believe that we DO have a requirement to =
allow the server to send RRRs.
>=20
> SRD> Maybe we need two types of RRRs, one that applies to a single =
server and one that applies to the full realm.  Yes Ben, these do start =
to sound like scopes :-) but this can also be addressed by either =
creating separate report types or qualifying the RRR report.
>=20
>=20
> In an agent case, the server sending the RRR gives the agent the =
ability to generate an aggregated RRR the covers all servers for the =
application.
>=20
> <Ulrich>the agent should aggregate received host-type reports and =
convert it into an RRR report</Ulrich>
>=20
> SRD> This is what an agent would do to generate the proposed new =
"realm" report.  I'm skeptical that an agent can make reasonable =
decisions about what RRR report to generate based on host reports =
received.
>=20
>   So I guess, there would be a DOIC association between the client and =
the agent use to transport the aggregated RRR
>=20
> <Ulrich>yes</Ulrich>
>=20
> and a DOIC associate between the agent and the server used to =
transport the server specific RRR
>=20
> <Ulrich>server specific host-type report</Ulrich>
>=20
> .
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/25/14 3:33 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Fine to agree
> =20
> From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]=20
> Sent: martes, 25 de febrero de 2014 10:16
> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
> =20
> Steve, MCruz,
> =20
> lets go step by step.
> =20
> =20
> I=92m ok to conclude on #23 to do the renaming from =93realm report =
type=94 to =93realm-routed-request report type=94 and clarify that it =
applies to destination-host-less traffic.
> =20
> =20
> Whether or not to introduce a 3rd report type of =93realm=94 is out of =
scope of #23 and subject of #55.
> =20
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz =
Bartolome
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:05 AM
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
> =20
> Steve,
> =20
> The discussion started around some proposed use cases by Ulrich, and =
to my knowledge that discussion is not concluded.
> Then we have not agreed (at least yet) on having a differentiation =
between realm and realm-routed.
> Even more, as far as I understand the proposal it is related to the =
ability (by agent) to select the a server (in a farm, providing service =
to a realm) for new session establishment. This is something we =
discussed long time ago, and at that point in time we tend to agree that =
it was not required, but up to different applications to decide based on =
realm overload.
> Enhancements could be done on top of this, but first we need to agree =
on the basic use cases.
> =20
> I hope this clarifies
> Cheers
> /MCruz
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:40
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
> =20
> Maria Cruz,
>=20
> I thought you had asserted that there was a 3GPP requirement to have =
the ability to have a realm report that control the total amount of =
traffic sent to a realm.  There is certainly an IETF DOC requirement to =
this effect.
>=20
> The proposal is to have three report types (or four depending on the =
resolution of the per client host report discussion).
>=20
> - Host report - Apply to all requests sent to a host.  The host is =
indicated by the origin-host AVP in the answer message carrying the =
report.  Can be generated by a server or by an agent acting as a =
front-end to a group of servers.
>=20
> - Realm-routed-request report - Applies to all requests sent to a =
realm without a destination-host AVP in the request message.  Can be =
generated by a server or by an agent acting as a front-end to a group of =
servers.
>=20
> - Realm report - Applies to all requests sent to the realm, =
independent of the presence or absence of a destination-host AVP in the =
request message.  Can be generated by a server or an agent.  The method =
for determining the realm state is out of scope for the DOIC document.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/24/14 1:12 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Hello,
> =20
> I do not think we have agreed so far on the need to have two different =
reports (so called realm-routed and just realm).
> Regards
> /MCruz
> =20
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf OfSteve Donovan
> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 18:44
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] Issue #23 Proposed resolution
> =20
> I propose the following resolution for issue 23:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Proposal =96 Change the name of realm report. =20
>=20
> Proposed name - =93Realm-Routed-Request=94 report.
>=20
> Proposal =96 Update all discussion on =93Realm-Routed-Request=94 =
reports to indicate that they apply only to requests targeted to a realm =
when there is no destination-host AVP in the request.  Specifically, =
section 4.6 requires updating.
>=20
> There is also a proposal to add a new report type to handle all =
transactions to a realm.  This is addressed by ticket number 55.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Steve
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Hi Steve, MCruz and all

On my side,  I agree with Lionel.

I  have not the  same reading of the draft where I have  not found the Stev=
e's default case.
I agree with Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC association relates to this DOI=
C association  and the OLR can be different  for another DOIC association. =
The basic (or "default") principle is that each DOIC association has its "o=
wn life".

Then,  a server (local policy) can decide  to send  the same OLR to all its=
 clients (so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define  particular =
OLR values for   certain clients.
Another  interest  is that  when the server wants to update the OLR values =
towards  clients, it is  not obliged to send the new values  simultaneously=
  to all the clients : it may  (local server policy) progressively  change =
 the  value  over a certain duration  to minimize  sharp transitions.

So for DOIC supporting clients, the current text allows these possibilities=
, and in particular it satisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.

A second step is to address DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over time,  we=
 may expect that clients will be more and more DOIC supporting; so, this is=
 the main target. DAs with non DOIC client would be more for   a transition=
 (to be considered  nevertheless and which may be long).

The current text says that DA is acting on behalf of "A" client; so princip=
le  with host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there is no differ=
ence for the server, as this does not make a difference  between a DOIC sup=
porting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.
Nevertheless, and here I come to Steve's point,   this has a cost implying =
the DA to manage OLRs per client. Steve  introduces an optimization where i=
n fact a set of clients are considered for me as a pool regarding  DOIC whe=
re only one OLR applies and where throttling  applies  to the requests of t=
his  pool of clients.  I am not against to optimization process   but this =
pool concept is new and needs some further study. First about the concept o=
f DOIC association which evolves , as now linked to a pool .

There was a MCruz remark about sequence number, a new AVP or a  new report =
type.  I see that  we may have to review  the processing of the seq number =
 handling as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so   a "collate=
ral " effect of the optimization. I would also think that, instead of intro=
ducing a single node indication in the OLR (AVP or report type) , it should=
 be a global indication as the optimization   is to support a global DOIC a=
ssociation.  To also see if there are not other collateral effects to analy=
ze.

Ulrich  also mentioned that for realm OLRs we may also have  a different re=
alm  OLR sent to different clients, so this is the same principle as Lionel=
  for  a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.

The current text due to the DOIC association principle,  allows this realm =
OLR per DOIC association for both  DOIC  supporting clients and  DAs acting=
 on behalf of A client. Then I expect Steve  to do the same remark, with th=
e same reason  to have  an optimization  where all clients receives  the  s=
ame realm OLR, but to also see the collateral effects.

As a conclusion, I think we should remain with the current text as the base=
line, following the DOIC association principle that Lionel mentions, and af=
ter more investigation to assess the  optimization  for host and realm OLRs=
 with DA supporting non DOIC,  this optimization being optional.

Best regards

JJacques

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 10:09
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Yes, I agree with Steve.

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24
To: lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; dime@ietf.or=
g<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Lionel,

The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.

I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.  If this is the case then t=
here is little benefit (and significant overhead) to requiring an agent to =
maintain state per non-supporting client.

I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.  If this is the cas=
e then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the origi=
n-host in the request and only then should agents be required to maintain s=
tate for the non-supporting client.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
I really don't understand but it is not the first time :)

What about the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent maint=
aining overload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?
So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavio=
r that was implicit if you consider the comments above.

For me, the option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a spec=
ific client. So over two different DOIC association with the same server/re=
porting node, you can have two different OLRs.
But it does not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Maria Cruz,

To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.  To this end, it would be better to have this as part of the ba=
se specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want the =
same behavior.

Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes respond to per Origin-Hos=
t reports should be specified in a common way.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello again,

I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned=
 in related thread #56.

This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload miti=
gation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:

TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent implementatio=
ns to decide when and whether overload mitigation differentiation per clien=
t is used".



Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be =
considered by 3GPP applications when required.



Best regards

/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve, all,

I agree with Steve.

However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing =
(if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is replaced by new ho=
st OLR (per client).
Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new =
sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the =
contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OL=
R type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.

Let me know your opinions.
Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.

It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default behavior then it =
would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report =
to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this new feature =
is to allow a server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reactin=
g node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.

In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.

My proposal is the following:

- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.

- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).

- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:
  - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not act on=
 the OLR.
  - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must apply =
the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.   This implies t=
hat when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate whic=
h non supporting client originated the request.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.

Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this wording indep=
endent of the resolution of this issue.

Steve
On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

Is it implicit?



If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.



Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.



Regards,



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello Ulrich,



I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.



I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.



I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.



Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi MCruz,

there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.



If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.



Best regards

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello JJ and all,



As per email thread, the latest proposal is:

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."



An Ulrich comments on this:

"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."



Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?

Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi Mcruz and all



I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.

Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .



For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.



Best regards



Jacques







-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome=
 Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@i=
etf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello all,



Not sure we all have the same understanding here.

Let me try to explain my concerns.



The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.

Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:



a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.

Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.

But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.

Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."

But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.

How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:

- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1

- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).

- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?

In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.



b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.

With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.



Let me know your opinions please

Best regards

/MCruz







-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28

To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Steve,



please see inline.



Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Ulrich,



I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.



First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>





We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>



My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.

<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>

To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "s=
ingle-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  =
Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>



Steve

On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



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DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



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DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime



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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
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ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve, MCruz and all<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On my side, &nbsp;I agree=
 with Lionel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I &nbsp;have not the &nbs=
p;same reading of the draft where I have &nbsp;not found the Steve&#8217;s =
default case.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree with Lionel that =
the OLR for a DOIC association relates to this DOIC association &nbsp;and t=
he OLR can be different &nbsp;for another DOIC association. The basic
 (or &#8220;default&#8221;) principle is that each DOIC association has its=
 &#8220;own life&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, &nbsp;a server (loc=
al policy) can decide &nbsp;to send &nbsp;the same OLR to all its clients (=
so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define &nbsp;particular OLR v=
alues
 for &nbsp;&nbsp;certain clients. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Another &nbsp;interest &n=
bsp;is that &nbsp;when the server wants to update the OLR values towards &n=
bsp;clients, it is &nbsp;not obliged to send the new values &nbsp;simultane=
ously &nbsp;to all
 the clients : it may &nbsp;(local server policy) progressively &nbsp;chang=
e &nbsp;the &nbsp;value &nbsp;over a certain duration &nbsp;to minimize &nb=
sp;sharp transitions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for DOIC supporting cl=
ients, the current text allows these possibilities, and in particular it sa=
tisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A second step is to addre=
ss DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over time, &nbsp;we may expect that cli=
ents will be more and more DOIC supporting; so, this is the main
 target. DAs with non DOIC client would be more for &nbsp;&nbsp;a transitio=
n (to be considered &nbsp;nevertheless and which may be long).<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The current text says tha=
t DA is acting on behalf of &#8220;A&#8221; client; so principle &nbsp;with=
 host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there is no difference for
 the server, as this does not make a difference &nbsp;between a DOIC suppor=
ting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Nevertheless, and here I =
come to Steve&#8217;s point, &nbsp;&nbsp;this has a cost implying the DA to=
 manage OLRs per client. Steve &nbsp;introduces an optimization where in fa=
ct
 a set of clients are considered for me as a pool regarding &nbsp;DOIC wher=
e only one OLR applies and where throttling &nbsp;applies &nbsp;to the requ=
ests of this &nbsp;pool of clients. &nbsp;I am not against to optimization =
process &nbsp;&nbsp;but this pool concept is new and needs some further
 study. First about the concept of DOIC association which evolves , as now =
linked to a pool .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There was a MCruz remark =
about sequence number, a new AVP or a &nbsp;new report type. &nbsp;I see th=
at &nbsp;we may have to review &nbsp;the processing of the seq number &nbsp=
;handling
 as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so &nbsp;&nbsp;a &#8220;=
collateral &#8220; effect of the optimization. I would also think that, ins=
tead of introducing a single node indication in the OLR (AVP or report type=
) , it should be a global indication as the optimization
 &nbsp;&nbsp;is to support a global DOIC association. &nbsp;To also see if =
there are not other collateral effects to analyze.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich &nbsp;also mention=
ed that for realm OLRs we may also have &nbsp;a different realm &nbsp;OLR s=
ent to different clients, so this is the same principle as Lionel &nbsp;for
 &nbsp;a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The current text due to t=
he DOIC association principle, &nbsp;allows this realm OLR per DOIC associa=
tion for both &nbsp;DOIC&nbsp; supporting clients and &nbsp;DAs acting on b=
ehalf
 of A client. Then I expect Steve &nbsp;to do the same remark, with the sam=
e reason &nbsp;to have &nbsp;an optimization &nbsp;where all clients receiv=
es &nbsp;the &nbsp;same realm OLR, but to also see the collateral effects.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As a conclusion, I think =
we should remain with the current text as the baseline, following the DOIC =
association principle that Lionel mentions, and after more
 investigation to assess the &nbsp;optimization&nbsp; for host and realm OL=
Rs with DA supporting non DOIC, &nbsp;this optimization being optional.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bou=
nces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 10:09<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Yes, I agree with Steve.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange=
.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Lionel,<br>
<br>
The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.&nbsp; If this is the case t=
hen there is little benefit (and significant
 overhead) to requiring an agent to maintain state per non-supporting clien=
t.<br>
<br>
I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.&nbsp; If this is th=
e case then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the =
origin-host in the request and only then
 should agents be required to maintain state for the non-supporting client.=
<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I really don't understand=
 but it is not the first time
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"=
>J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What about the DOIC assoc=
iation? What about my assumption about agent maintaining overload control s=
tate for non-DOIC enabled client?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for me, the proposal f=
rom Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavior that was implicit if yo=
u consider the comments above.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For me, the option for th=
e server is only to send a specific OLR for a specific client. So over two =
different DOIC association with the same server/reporting
 node, you can have two different OLRs.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But it does not change th=
e way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org=
">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.&nbsp; To this end, it would be better to have this as part of t=
he base specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want=
 the same behavior.<br>
<br>
Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How reacting nodes respond to per Origi=
n-Host reports should be specified in a common way.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">Hello=
 again,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">I for=
got to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned in r=
elated thread #56.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">This =
is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload mitigatio=
n differentiation per client. But this is a server option:</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states &quot;It=
 may be up to the server/agent implementations to decide when and whether o=
verload mitigation differentiation per client is used&quot;.</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Therefore, we can even consider this=
 new OLR out of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP applications when=
 required.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve, all,</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
I agree with Steve.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I would like to =
share one concern. We need to avoid that existing (if any) host OLR (&#8220=
;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by new host OLR
 (per client).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host OLR (per client) wit=
h the new AVP requires that the server uses a new sequence number, but exis=
ting host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the contrary
 both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to achieve this,=
 it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (host per client),=
 instead of a new AVP.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let me know your opinions=
.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Adding an AVP to indi=
cate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in the request is not ju=
st an optimization for agents.<br>
<br>
It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior the=
n it would be best to have the default,
 implicit, meaning of an overload report to be &quot;applies to all reactin=
g nodes&quot;.&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow a serve=
r to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting node when then gl=
obal reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
<br>
In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.<br>
<br>
My proposal is the following:<br>
<br>
- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.<br>
<br>
- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
<br>
- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not a=
ct on the OLR.<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must a=
pply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients. &nbsp; This=
 implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differen=
tiate which non supporting client originated
 the request.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.<br>
<br>
Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need something like this wording =
independent of the resolution of this issue.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
s it implicit? </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will h=
ave to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cli=
ent and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm =
assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host o=
f this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of =
this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">E=
ven if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alway=
s put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cli=
ents.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">R=
egards,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">L=
ionel</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Message d'origine-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
e&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">E=
nvoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
bjet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ello Ulrich,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify =
if this is what JJ got in mind.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open=
 question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for =
one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR t=
o one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any =
client. </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">/=
MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.co=
m">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
i MCruz,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
here is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting n=
ode for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from=
 servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduct=
ion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2);=
 A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 request=
ing 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reducti=
on of traffic from C2 to R.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ello JJ and all,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
s per email thread, the latest proposal is:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot; </span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
n Ulrich comments on this:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
quot;This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of th=
e reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also=
 the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node=
 (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role =
of a reacting node towards the server.&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
s your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? </span><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">/=
MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)</span><o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
i Mcruz and all</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the &quot;repor=
ting&quot; node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for whi=
ch will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it ca=
n reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, =
clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ere I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavior whe=
n&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received f=
or one client for other clients&nbsp; .</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
or me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may =
always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the b=
aseline.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">J=
acques </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Message d'origine-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
e&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 =
f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.=
org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ello all,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">N=
ot sure we all have the same understanding here.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">L=
et me try to explain my concerns.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
he original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to r=
educe traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by &quot;Ori=
gin-Host&quot; in the request.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hen, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the ser=
ver answer shall be marked:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OL=
R) is the client that sends the request, identified by &quot;Origin-Host&qu=
ot; in the request.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hen, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D&quot;Origin-Host&quot;, the expecte=
d reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
ut, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, the=
n the &quot;Origin-Host&quot; identifies final client, but not the reacting=
 node.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hen, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent=
 behavior (possible clause 5.5):</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;</span><o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
ut this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one =
specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.</span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ow will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm=
? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 &#43; S2) via Agent1. Let's consider f=
ollowing example:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
 C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1</span><o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
 S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
 Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR=
 only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for =
requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate a=
ggregated Realm overload?</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
n my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only =
meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, =
as in b) below.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">b=
) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client (&quot;Orig=
in-Host&quot; in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
ith this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shal=
l be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP=
.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">L=
et me know your opinions please</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">/=
MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: ext Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></s=
pan><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
teve,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">p=
lease see inline.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp;=
 </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
irst, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting ag=
ents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This, =
I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; I=
 suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing=
 wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the reque=
st must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Subseque=
nt DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-support=
ing client.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
e need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being t=
he reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily =
happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transacti=
on.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algori=
thm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.</span><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g=
. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">M=
y other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for=
 the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload =
reports.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports th=
at are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of th=
e &quot;single-client-only&quot; AVP would mean that the report applies to =
all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies =
to the Origin-Host.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. =
Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are=
 client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not wan=
t to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the=
 client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
teve</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
n 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:</span><o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
en,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
he proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, =
Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">N=
ow you seem to address two points:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.</span><o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for=
 5.5. as follows:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
hen an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a r=
eceived OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request whi=
ch corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
his would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reac=
ting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the c=
ase where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for =
realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a r=
eacting node towards the server.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">b=
) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disa=
gree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of =
reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:</span><o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">1=
. ignore the 3GPP requirement</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">2=
. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the=
 binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
o far I understood that people favoured option 3.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ee also inline.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostru=
m.com</a>]</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">C=
c: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
n Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a href=3D"mail=
to:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:</span><o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">#=
35: additional report types are proposed</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
ear all,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we a=
greed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:</span><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
hen an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client=
 not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the orig=
in-host of the client.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 do not agree.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Y=
ou proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If there'=
s an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reactin=
g node from the server's perspective.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not kno=
w whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of th=
e reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-host ty=
pe, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC suppor=
t at the clients.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at th=
e client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-=
supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic=
 by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from t=
he perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't have t=
hat option for non-DOIC clients.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
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<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
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<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">C=
e message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confident=
ielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">p=
as etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu =
ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
 l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages ele=
ctroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
range decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou f=
alsifie. Merci.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
his message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged info=
rmation that may be protected by law;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
hey should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span>=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delet=
e this message and its attachments.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
s emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been m=
odified, changed or falsified.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hank you.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
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<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">C=
e message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confident=
ielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">p=
as etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu =
ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
 l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages ele=
ctroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
range decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou f=
alsifie. Merci.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
his message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged info=
rmation that may be protected by law;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
hey should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span>=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delet=
e this message and its attachments.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
s emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been m=
odified, changed or falsified.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hank you.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
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Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Hi

Remove "from now on" is acceptable for me, but  I have a preference for the=
 reverse wording Lionel proposes, which is shorter and brings the clarifica=
tion I was looking for,:

For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 has been received, the reacting node which

 would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90

 packets to the reporting node.


Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 17:00
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

I'm with Lionel.  I don't understand why the proposed wording is confusing.=
  Reacting nodes always only apply the reduction percentage for the period =
of time that the specific overload report is active.  That period either en=
ds when a new overload report is received or when the overload report expir=
es.

That said, I'm happy with just removing the words "from no on" as proposed =
by Lionel below.

Steve

On 2/24/14 7:26 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

I don't see the issue, as explained in my mail but OK to remove it.



If "for now" is removed, the resulting text would be:



  For example if the reacting node has been sending

  100 packets per second to the reporting node, then

  a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 10

  would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST

  only send 90 packets per second.



Maybe it would be even easier to reverse the sentence as follow:



 For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 has been received, the reacting node which

 would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90

 packets to the reporting node.





But I'm fine if the initial proposed revised text is kept.



Lionel



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:13

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion



Hello,



I agree with Ulrich's proposal

Cheers

/MCruz



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46

To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@iet=
f.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion



I share JJacques concern. Replacing "from now on" with "for the period that=
 the overload report is active"

is misleading. May be its better to simply remove "from now on".



Ulrich











From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion



Hi MCruz, Steve



I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sur=
e.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on =
  "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to wh=
ich it refers.



During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic t=
he reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received th=
e OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and fro=
m the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  whi=
ch I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which =
I also agree.



As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may unders=
tand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think=
 to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.



JJacques





De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange=
.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33

=C0 : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion



+1 (including Steve comment)



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion



Maria Cruz,



I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change belo=
w.



Steve

On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history



Following agreement is reached:



 Now (chapter 4.7):

    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.



 Proposal:

   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.          =
        <----





 Now (chapter 5.5.2):

      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to

      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the

      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the

      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value

      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true

      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up

      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every

      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application

      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100



  Proposal:

 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce

 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the

 reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          <---

 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       =
<---

 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to

 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th

 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try

 to recover from it.

SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"















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DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.



___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.



_______________________________________________

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DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Remove &#8220;from now on=
&#8221; is acceptable for me, but &nbsp;I have a preference for the reverse=
 wording Lionel proposes, which is shorter and brings the clarification I
 was looking for,:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;10 has been received, the reacting node which <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90 <o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>&nbsp;packets to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bou=
nces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 17:00<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm with Lionel.&nbsp; I don't understand why the pr=
oposed wording is confusing.&nbsp; Reacting nodes always only apply the red=
uction percentage for the period of time that the specific overload report =
is active.&nbsp; That period either ends when a new
 overload report is received or when the overload report expires.<br>
<br>
That said, I'm happy with just removing the words &quot;from no on&quot; as=
 proposed by Lionel below.<br>
<br>
Steve<br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 7:26 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I don't see the issue, as explained in my mail but OK to remove it. <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If &quot;for now&quot; is removed, the resulting text would be:<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; For example if the reacting node has been sending<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>&nbsp; 100 packets per second to the reporting node, then<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>&nbsp; a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value&nbsp;of 10<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>&nbsp; only send 90 packets per second.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Maybe it would be even easier to reverse the sentence as follow:<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre> For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;10 has been received, the reacting node which <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90 <o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>&nbsp;packets to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>But I'm fine if the initial proposed revised text is kept.<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:13<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on prev=
ious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I agree with Ulrich's proposal<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cheers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@i=
etf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous=
 history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I share JJacques concern. Replacing &quot;from now on&quot; with &quot=
;for the period that the overload report is active&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>is misleading. May be its better to simply remove &quot;from now on&qu=
ot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous=
 history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi MCruz, Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I also agree on the &quot;would send &quot; instead of the &quot;would=
 have sent&quot; &nbsp;for sure. &nbsp;But I have &nbsp;a small concern/ cl=
arification &nbsp;about the Steve comment on &nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;for the peri=
od that the overload report is active&quot; and the example to which it ref=
ers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long, &nbsp;the=
 traffic the reacting node would send may be 100 packet &nbsp;when it has j=
ust received the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (=
or 80), and from the OLR definition, &nbsp;&nbsp;it would send 120x0,9 (or =
80* 0,9) packets, on&nbsp; which I agree. This is in line &nbsp;with the ev=
ery 10th packet dropping &nbsp;on which I also agree. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As the text &nbsp;&nbsp;would &nbsp;be written with the Steve modifica=
tion , we may understand it is &nbsp;80 Packet during all the time &nbsp;th=
e OLR is active. Not yet think to an alternative text, but first to see if =
you agree with my remark.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>JJacques <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.o=
rg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on prev=
ious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&#43;1 (including Steve comment)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on prev=
ious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Maria Cruz,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I support your suggested changes.&nbsp; I have one further suggested c=
hange below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Following agreement is reached:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Now (chapter 4.7):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is =
type of Unsigned32<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and describes the percentage of the traffic that th=
e sender is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise =
would have sent.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type o=
f Unsigned32&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and describes the percentage of the traffic that the=
 sender is&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise w=
ould send.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;Now (chapter 5.5.2):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates that the reporting node urges=
 the reacting node to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduce its traffic by a given percentag=
e.&nbsp; For example if the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node has been sending 100 pack=
ets per second to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reporting node, then a reception of OC-=
Reduction-Percentage value<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of 10 would mean that from now on the r=
eacting node MUST only send<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90 packets per second.&nbsp; How the re=
acting node achieves the &quot;true<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduction&quot; transactions leading to=
 the sent request messages is up<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the implementation.&nbsp; The reacti=
ng node MAY simply drop every<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10th packet from its output queue and l=
et the generic application<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logic try to recover from it.0 &lt; val=
ue &lt; 100<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce <=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre> reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of =
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the &quot;t=
rue&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reduction&quot; transactions leading to the sent request messages is =
up to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=
 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;packet from its output queue and let the generic application log=
ic try <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;to recover from it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SRD&gt; Replace &quot;from now on&quot; in the above with &quot;for th=
e period that the overload report is active&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
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<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thank you.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 08:24:33 +0000
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References: <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3D63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <530BAC7C.7080106@usdonovans.com> <E2257532-C0EE-4D2D-8305-DED5828B4FCC@nostrum.com> <530CB073.7000802@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B47C2@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <530CC6A2.5010702@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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I agree. It seems we can close issue#32.

I assume editors will convert the agreed principles to propper specificatio=
n text.

Ulrich

From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:37 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Ben Campbell
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status

Ulrich,

Yes, with that period being long enough for the reporting node to be confid=
ent that all previously sent overload reports have expired.

Steve
On 2/25/14 10:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Steve, Ben,



for my clarification, your proposal is to say



***

Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.



When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence num=
ber contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including =
over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at =
1 for the initial occurrence of an overload condition at a reporting node.

***



If so, what is meant by "initial occurrence of an overload condition"?



I guess it means something like moving from no overload to overload after a=
 sufficiently long periode of no overload



Please clarify



Ulrich





From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:02 PM

To: Ben Campbell

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status



I agree with the suggested change.



Steve

On 2/24/14 5:00 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

+ 1, except as noted:



On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com><mailt=
o:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:



Ulrich,



Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:



Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.



When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequence num=
ber contained in the active overload report to which it applies (including =
over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at =
1 for any occurrence of overload at a reporting node.  This, I think, allow=
s us to ignore wraparound issues as wraparound will never happen.  Unless w=
e are worried about a server staying in overload for billions of years (ass=
uming reports with a ten minute validity period refreshed every five minute=
s).



s/ any occurrence of overload / the initial occurrence of an overload condi=
tion





The other two statements are good.



Steve










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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree. I=
t seems we can close issue#32.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I assume e=
ditors will convert the agreed principles to propper specification text.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
<br>
Yes, with that period being long enough for the reporting node to be confid=
ent that all previously sent overload reports have expired.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/25/14 10:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve, Ben,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>for my clarification, your proposal is to say<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>***<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequenc=
e number contained in the active overload report to which it applies (inclu=
ding over reboot of that node).&nbsp; Note: this allows sequence numbers to=
 start at 1 for the initial occurrence of an overload condition at a report=
ing node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>***<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If so, what is meant by &quot;initial occurrence of an overload condit=
ion&quot;?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I guess it means something like moving from no overload to overload af=
ter a sufficiently long periode of no overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Please clarify<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:02 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I agree with the suggested change.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/24/14 5:00 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&#43; 1, except as noted:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Steve Donovan <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan=
@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the sequenc=
e number contained in the active overload report to which it applies (inclu=
ding over reboot of that node).&nbsp; Note: this allows sequence numbers to=
 start at 1 for any occurrence of overload at a reporting node.&nbsp; This,=
 I think, allows us to ignore wraparound issues as wraparound will never ha=
ppen.&nbsp; Unless we are worried about a server staying in overload for bi=
llions of years (assuming reports with a ten minute validity period refresh=
ed every five minutes).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>s/ any occurrence of overload / the initial occurrence of an overload =
condition<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The other two statements are good.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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Steve, Ben, all,

on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not require=
d for loss i.e. not required for  draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can  leave it up=
 to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to specify the requirem=
ent to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed (I still don't=
 see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs to be discusse=
d when discussing those drafts.

On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this requi=
rement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Anyway, =
given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messages (e=
xept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already knows)=
. Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the reporting n=
ode from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported by t=
he reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows wheth=
er or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status


On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:
>=20
> 1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of over=
load abatement the reporting node will ask for.
>=20
> this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the rea=
cting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number of =
requests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.
>=20
> There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state a=
bout traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we choose, leave it=
 up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to specify t=
he requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.
>=20
> 2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features =
AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload supported=
 in the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter networ=
k.  For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts to the =
knowledge of whether servers support overload.  In the case that the server=
 does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the server,=
 up to the point that the server sends an OLR.  If the client determines th=
at the server does not support overload then it might have a configured max=
imum rate that it will send to the server.
>=20
> My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers bec=
ause most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to bett=
er implementation client implementations.

+1 on both points
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
Thread-Index: AQHPMagI3DCddS4DqUu7RccaCVEivZrHSnlQ
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 10:00:12 +0000
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References: <057.2153d3a0ed57933cb4ec7468d82db1d9@trac.tools.ietf.org> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026649BC@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209774896@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026649F8@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-luc! ent.com> <52FCB76E.6020202@usdonovans.com> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026686E4@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209775207@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <27861_1392393201_52FE3BF1_27861_1566_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4A3E77@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <83E6BED2-035D-4C26-A1AF-9F833B1070C5@nostrum.com> <5302365A.8080408@usdonovans.com> <E194C2E18676714DA! CA9C3A2516265D2026697BC@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <27433_1392660486_53025006_27433_1223_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4AB48A@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <579DC2BE-CC3C-43E6-819C-ADB7B1182CED@nostrum.com> <530BBA98.9080903@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?
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My understanding was that e.g. if the reporting node has requested 30% redu=
ction but now detects that it needs a 50% reduction, it just sends a new OL=
R with 50% and that will implicitly indicate that the previous OLR with 30%=
 is no longer valid. This is a valid way to make the 30% OLR invalid; no ne=
ed to first send an zero validity time OLR to make the 30% OLR invalid. Any=
 (correctly coded) fresh OLR makes a previous OLR invalid.

The second sentence (at least in my understanding) is ambiguous: is it the =
OLR that contains a zero percentage that should not be regarded invalid or =
is it the previously received OLR?

I have no strong view whether or not to allow zero validity and/or zero per=
centage, but the proposed text is not understandable/acceptable.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 10:33 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disallowed?

I think the proposal here is the following:

A reporting node communicates that an overload report is no longer valid by=
 sending an OLR with a Validity-Period AVP with a value of zero.  This is t=
he only way for a reporting node to indicate that an overload report is no =
longer valid.  For instance, setting the reduction-percentage to zero does =
not make the overload report invalid.

Do we have agreement on this?

Steve
On 2/17/14 12:44 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:



On Feb 17, 2014, at 12:08 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com> wrote:



I would like to highlight that my proposal is not related to the default Re=
duction-percentage algo.



Whatever the ago used, I think that an OLR can only be sent for two purpose=
s:

- Send an indication of overload situation

- Send an indication of end of the overload situation



For me, providing both indications in the same message would be a non-sense=
. And I don't understand why the validity period would prevail in that case=
.



So here's the question: Let's assume a reporting node sends you an OLR usin=
g the "loss" algorithm, a reduction-percentage of 50%, and a Validity-Durat=
ion of 10 minutes. 5 minutes later, it sends you a new OLR with an invalid =
reduction percentage and a Validity-Duration of 0.



What's the current overload state?



What if the second OLR used the "rate" algorithm, with a valid value, but s=
till had a validity duration of 0. Does that change anything?



I am arguing that, in both cases, the second OLR ends the overload period.



I'm actually okay if we have a normative statement to the effect that the r=
eporting node MUST NOT send an invalid reduction percentage, and that a rea=
cting node MUST ignore an OLR with an invalid value _except_ for the case o=
f a validity-duration set to zero.



This all comes down to how much guessing we are willing to do about the int=
ent of the sender when one receives an invalid OLR. I think it's reasonable=
 to guess that a zero validity duration means to end an overload condition,=
 without regard to the rest of the message. I _don't_ think it's reasonable=
 to try to guess what the sender meant with an invalid reduction percentage=
, when the validity period is non-zero.



Another, perhaps simpler, approach would be to assert that the reception of=
 _any_ invalid OLR automatically ends any existing overload condition. (I'm=
 not necessarily arguing for that--it's just something to think about.)





Now, if what is argued by Ben and supported by JJ and Steve is clear for th=
e rest of the group, I will not fight.



... but the fighting is the fun part :-)

_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My underst=
anding was that e.g. if the reporting node has requested 30% reduction but =
now detects that it needs a 50% reduction, it just sends a
 new OLR with 50% and that will implicitly indicate that the previous OLR w=
ith 30% is no longer valid. This is a valid way to make the 30% OLR invalid=
; no need to first send an zero validity time OLR to make the 30% OLR inval=
id. Any (correctly coded) fresh
 OLR makes a previous OLR invalid.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The second=
 sentence (at least in my understanding) is ambiguous: is it the OLR that c=
ontains a zero percentage that should not be regarded invalid
 or is it the previously received OLR?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I have no =
strong view whether or not to allow zero validity and/or zero percentage, b=
ut the proposed text is not understandable/acceptable.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 10:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #45: Why is a validity duration of 0 disa=
llowed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I think the proposal =
here is the following:<br>
<br>
A reporting node communicates that an overload report is no longer valid by=
 sending an OLR with a Validity-Period AVP with a value of zero.&nbsp; This=
 is the only way for a reporting node to indicate that an overload report i=
s no longer valid.&nbsp; For instance, setting
 the reduction-percentage to zero does not make the overload report invalid=
.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Do we have agreement on this?<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/17/14 12:44 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 17, 2014, at 12:08 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I would like to highlight that my proposal is not related to the defau=
lt Reduction-percentage algo.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Whatever the ago used, I think that an OLR can only be sent for two pu=
rposes:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Send an indication of overload situation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Send an indication of end of the overload situation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>For me, providing both indications in the same message would be a non-=
sense. And I don't understand why the validity period would prevail in that=
 case.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>So here's the question: Let's assume a reporting node sends you an OLR=
 using the &quot;loss&quot; algorithm, a reduction-percentage of 50%, and a=
 Validity-Duration of 10 minutes. 5 minutes later, it sends you a new OLR w=
ith an invalid reduction percentage and a Validity-Duration of 0.<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>What's the current overload state?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>What if the second OLR used the &quot;rate&quot; algorithm, with a val=
id value, but still had a validity duration of 0. Does that change anything=
?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I am arguing that, in both cases, the second OLR ends the overload per=
iod.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I'm actually okay if we have a normative statement to the effect that =
the reporting node MUST NOT send an invalid reduction percentage, and that =
a reacting node MUST ignore an OLR with an invalid value _except_ for the c=
ase of a validity-duration set to zero.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This all comes down to how much guessing we are willing to do about th=
e intent of the sender when one receives an invalid OLR. I think it's reaso=
nable to guess that a zero validity duration means to end an overload condi=
tion, without regard to the rest of the message. I _don't_ think it's reaso=
nable to try to guess what the sender meant with an invalid reduction perce=
ntage, when the validity period is non-zero.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Another, perhaps simpler, approach would be to assert that the recepti=
on of _any_ invalid OLR automatically ends any existing overload condition.=
 (I'm not necessarily arguing for that--it's just something to think about.=
)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Now, if what is argued by Ben and supported by JJ and Steve is clear f=
or the rest of the group, I will not fight.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>... but the fighting is the fun part :-)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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Dear all

About this thread, I am in line with Ulrich and Mcruz comments that realm O=
LRS are generated  by DOICs DAs dealing with realm, overload.
Regarding Lionel comment that a server, aware of the overload  of other ser=
vers, can generate a realm OLR, in fact in this case  the node supports the=
 server functional entity  and a DA  functional entity addressing realm ove=
rload. This is common for implementations to do such integrations (eg in 3G=
PP) but it does not change the content of a functional entity=20

Regarding Steve concern, I think (as Ben) this is a new requirement where s=
erver would like to drive the behavior of a client on the type of requests.=
 My current understanding is that the server indicates an overload and then=
 this is to the client (and to the DA acting on realm requests) to decide o=
n what is throttled/rerouted and this is quite application dependent. Perso=
nally, I do not yet see the need for such a server requirement.=20

So this is a new extension to investigate later (including the requiremnt o=
r this extension)) and outside of our currents scope for the baseline draft=
.

Best regards

Jacques=20

=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Ben Campbell
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 20:23
=C0=A0: Steve Donovan
Cc=A0: dime@ietf.org
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report=
 type

On Feb 25, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> Ben,
>=20
> I'm asserting that there are valid use cases (3GPP PCC for one) for a ser=
ver sending a RRR that only impacts realm routed requests being sent to tha=
t server.  This is different than a RRR that reports on all realm routed re=
quests sent to any server in the realm.

Then that is something different than they way I expected RRR reports (and =
I assume others) expected them to be used, and I think it would give incorr=
ect behavior for other use cases. (1)

For example, lets assume a client knows about (either through configuration=
 or dynamic discovery) two next hop destinations (A and B)  that can handle=
 the Foo realm for a given application. It, at least initially, has no idea=
 if those destinations are agents or servers. If that client receives an RR=
R OLR from A, is it allowed (or even expected)  to shift load to B? My inte=
nt for the RRR report type, based on our early discussions of the mixed-sta=
te scenario, was no. But I think the way you describe it, the answer would =
be yes.

I think we are talking about two distinct use cases. One is reporting overl=
oad that impacts the entire pool of servers that handle a particular realm+=
application. Another is is to allow reporting of overload that is created d=
ue to some number-of-session constrained resource. I agree both use cases a=
re interesting, and potentially needed. But I don't think a single report t=
ype, without further modification, can handle both use cases.=20

I also think a single host could be session-constrained, and a pool of serv=
ers handling a realm could become session constrained. That suggests we nee=
d a way of saying "reduce (new) sessions" that can work for both host and R=
RR reports. That could be a separate algorithm, or some markup that says "p=
lease reduce sessions". =20

(1) To some degree, I think we are suffering from our choice to use report-=
types to distinguish these sort of semantics, rather than the scope concept=
 in the Roach draft. The fundamental difference is an OLR could combine mul=
tiple scopes (e.g. "new session for realm Foo at host A"  , but can only ha=
ve one type. (e.g. "realm foo" or "host a".)

>=20
> Steve
>=20
>=20
> On 2/25/14 12:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> I think that both models are reasonable deployments. Our definitions of =
HRR and RRR should support both approaches. I say this with the caveat that=
, if a server sends an RRR report, it is claiming authoritative knowledge o=
f all servers in the realm.
>>=20
>> Agents sending reports to clients can take _any_ input they want to. Tha=
t could be host reports from servers, RRR reports from servers, Diameter er=
rors, transport errors, and any number of proprietary methods.
>>=20
>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)=20
>> <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Age=
nts generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the r=
eacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC a=
ssociations with the servers.
>>> =20
>>> Ulrich
>>> =20
>>> From: ext Steve Donovan [
>>> mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>>> ]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
>>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome;=20
>>> dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload=20
>>> report type
>>> =20
>>> How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new sessio=
ns (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?
>>>=20
>>> I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers ne=
ed to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate thos=
e aggregated reports.
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I agree with MCruz.
>>> =20
>>> Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of rea=
lm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured=
) that there is no other server in that realm).
>>> =20
>>> Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node fo=
r a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into a=
nswer messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as =
received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.
>>> =20
>>> Ulrich
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> From: DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>>> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
>>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome;
>>> dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload=20
>>> report type
>>> =20
>>> Maria Cruz,
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding o=
f the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try =
to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>>>=20
>>> My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the s=
erver does not want to receive new sessions. =20
>>>=20
>>> Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent=
 (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the =
network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>>>=20
>>> I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can g=
enerate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers=
 and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>>>=20
>>> Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applicati=
ons.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and a=
pplications that always rely on realm routed requests.
>>>=20
>>> Everyone, which definition applies?
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>>> Steve,
>>> =20
>>> See some comments below please.
>>> /MCruz
>>> =20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>> ] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
>>> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
>>> To:=20
>>> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>>>=20
>>> Cc:=20
>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload=20
>>> report type
>>> =20
>>> #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>>> =20
>>>  I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01=20
>>> version will  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies=20
>>> independent of the actual  name of the report.
>>> =20
>>>  The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that=20
>>> the  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage=20
>>> of realm  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>>> =20
>>>  This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client=20
>>> throttling  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of=20
>>> servers for that  Diameter application.
>>> [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm o=
verload.
>>> =20
>>>  Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter=20
>>> application and  all of those server are able to handle any=20
>>> transaction for that  application.
>>> =20
>>>  When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease=20
>>> the  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed=20
>>> requests.  The  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
>>> [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
>>> =20
>>>  Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able=20
>>> to  handle new sessions.
>>> =20
>>>  Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in=20
>>> the  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice=20
>>> but the  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even=20
>>> when these  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the=20
>>> non overloaded  servers.
>>> =20
>>>  The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be=20
>>> handled by  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there=20
>>> are other servers  able to handle the new session and, if so, can=20
>>> adjust the percentage of  requests routed to the overloaded server.
>>> =20
>>>  Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request=20
>>> from the  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This=20
>>> prevents the report  from being acted on by either multiple agents=20
>>> (if multiple are in the
>>>  path) or by an agent and a client.
>>> =20
>>>  Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by =20
>>> throttling the requested percentage.
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20

_______________________________________________
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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References: <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3F63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <53077659.1030909@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43B7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784859@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D20266A8C1@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920978489B@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4441@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784904@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <6255_1393250808_530B51F7_6255_2234_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4BB90C@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <530B6B9D.6010601@usdonovans.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784B4E@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784B72@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <530B9469.4070403@usdonovans.com> <16141_1393268235_530B960B_16141_14014_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4BC596@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <530B9C5E.90800@usdonovans.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784EA0@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D20266B9E6@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Hi JJacques,

thank you for the summary.

I think it does not matter whether we call

A)      "OLR per client" the base solution and "OLR for all clients" the op=
timization or

B)      "OLR for all clients" the base solution and "OLR per client" the (3=
GPP) extension
as long as we cover both.

I don't think there are impacts on sequence number handling, report types o=
r DOIC associations.

My proposal then is to add a new mandatory AVP of type enumerated to OC-OLR=
 with values

(0)    OLR per client

(1)    OLR for all clients

Reporting nodes that better like A) could allways send (0) unless they supp=
ort the "optimization" and want to use it;
Reporting nodes that better like B) could allways send (1) unless they supp=
ort the "(3GPP) extension" and want to use it.
Clients can safely ignore the new AVP.
Agents taking the role of the reacting node on behalf of a client must do t=
he binding when receiving (0).

We also need to say something on interactions e.g.:
A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid
A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same clie=
nt invalid
A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid

(i.e. change of type is allowed, mixture is not allowed)

Ulrich


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Steve, MCruz and all

On my side,  I agree with Lionel.

I  have not the  same reading of the draft where I have  not found the Stev=
e's default case.
I agree with Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC association relates to this DOI=
C association  and the OLR can be different  for another DOIC association. =
The basic (or "default") principle is that each DOIC association has its "o=
wn life".

Then,  a server (local policy) can decide  to send  the same OLR to all its=
 clients (so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define  particular =
OLR values for   certain clients.
Another  interest  is that  when the server wants to update the OLR values =
towards  clients, it is  not obliged to send the new values  simultaneously=
  to all the clients : it may  (local server policy) progressively  change =
 the  value  over a certain duration  to minimize  sharp transitions.

So for DOIC supporting clients, the current text allows these possibilities=
, and in particular it satisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.

A second step is to address DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over time,  we=
 may expect that clients will be more and more DOIC supporting; so, this is=
 the main target. DAs with non DOIC client would be more for   a transition=
 (to be considered  nevertheless and which may be long).

The current text says that DA is acting on behalf of "A" client; so princip=
le  with host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there is no differ=
ence for the server, as this does not make a difference  between a DOIC sup=
porting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.
Nevertheless, and here I come to Steve's point,   this has a cost implying =
the DA to manage OLRs per client. Steve  introduces an optimization where i=
n fact a set of clients are considered for me as a pool regarding  DOIC whe=
re only one OLR applies and where throttling  applies  to the requests of t=
his  pool of clients.  I am not against to optimization process   but this =
pool concept is new and needs some further study. First about the concept o=
f DOIC association which evolves , as now linked to a pool .

There was a MCruz remark about sequence number, a new AVP or a  new report =
type.  I see that  we may have to review  the processing of the seq number =
 handling as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so   a "collate=
ral " effect of the optimization. I would also think that, instead of intro=
ducing a single node indication in the OLR (AVP or report type) , it should=
 be a global indication as the optimization   is to support a global DOIC a=
ssociation.  To also see if there are not other collateral effects to analy=
ze.

Ulrich  also mentioned that for realm OLRs we may also have  a different re=
alm  OLR sent to different clients, so this is the same principle as Lionel=
  for  a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.

The current text due to the DOIC association principle,  allows this realm =
OLR per DOIC association for both  DOIC  supporting clients and  DAs acting=
 on behalf of A client. Then I expect Steve  to do the same remark, with th=
e same reason  to have  an optimization  where all clients receives  the  s=
ame realm OLR, but to also see the collateral effects.

As a conclusion, I think we should remain with the current text as the base=
line, following the DOIC association principle that Lionel mentions, and af=
ter more investigation to assess the  optimization  for host and realm OLRs=
 with DA supporting non DOIC,  this optimization being optional.

Best regards

JJacques

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 10:09
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Yes, I agree with Steve.

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24
To: lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; dime@ietf.or=
g<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Lionel,

The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.

I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.  If this is the case then t=
here is little benefit (and significant overhead) to requiring an agent to =
maintain state per non-supporting client.

I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.  If this is the cas=
e then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the origi=
n-host in the request and only then should agents be required to maintain s=
tate for the non-supporting client.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
I really don't understand but it is not the first time :)

What about the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent maint=
aining overload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?
So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavio=
r that was implicit if you consider the comments above.

For me, the option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a spec=
ific client. So over two different DOIC association with the same server/re=
porting node, you can have two different OLRs.
But it does not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Maria Cruz,

To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.  To this end, it would be better to have this as part of the ba=
se specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want the =
same behavior.

Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes respond to per Origin-Hos=
t reports should be specified in a common way.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello again,

I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned=
 in related thread #56.

This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload miti=
gation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:

TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent implementatio=
ns to decide when and whether overload mitigation differentiation per clien=
t is used".



Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be =
considered by 3GPP applications when required.



Best regards

/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve, all,

I agree with Steve.

However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing =
(if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is replaced by new ho=
st OLR (per client).
Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new =
sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the =
contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OL=
R type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.

Let me know your opinions.
Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.

It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default behavior then it =
would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report =
to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this new feature =
is to allow a server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reactin=
g node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.

In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.

My proposal is the following:

- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.

- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).

- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:
  - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not act on=
 the OLR.
  - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must apply =
the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.   This implies t=
hat when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate whic=
h non supporting client originated the request.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.

Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this wording indep=
endent of the resolution of this issue.

Steve
On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

Is it implicit?



If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.



Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.



Regards,



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello Ulrich,



I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.



I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.



I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.



Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi MCruz,

there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.



If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.



Best regards

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello JJ and all,



As per email thread, the latest proposal is:

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."



An Ulrich comments on this:

"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."



Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?

Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi Mcruz and all



I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.

Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .



For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.



Best regards



Jacques







-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome=
 Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@i=
etf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello all,



Not sure we all have the same understanding here.

Let me try to explain my concerns.



The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.

Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:



a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.

Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.

But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.

Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."

But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.

How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:

- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1

- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).

- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?

In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.



b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.

With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.



Let me know your opinions please

Best regards

/MCruz







-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28

To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Steve,



please see inline.



Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Ulrich,



I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.



First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>





We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>



My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.

<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>

To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "s=
ingle-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  =
Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>



Steve

On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
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ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi JJacques,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">thank you =
for the summary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think it=
 does not matter whether we call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">A)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&n=
bsp;&#8220;OLR per client&#8221; the base solution and &#8220;OLR for all c=
lients&#8221; the optimization or<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">B)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#=
8220;OLR for all clients&#8221; the base solution and &#8220;OLR per client=
&#8221; the (3GPP) extension<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">as long as=
 we cover both.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I don&#821=
7;t think there are impacts on sequence number handling, report types or DO=
IC associations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My proposa=
l then is to add a new mandatory AVP of type enumerated to OC-OLR with valu=
es<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">(0)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New R=
oman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OL=
R per client<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">(1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New R=
oman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OL=
R for all clients<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Reporting =
nodes that better like A) could allways send (0) unless they support the &#=
8220;optimization&#8221; and want to use it;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Reporting =
nodes that better like B) could allways send (1) unless they support the &#=
8220;(3GPP) extension&#8221; and want to use it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Clients ca=
n safely ignore the new AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Agents tak=
ing the role of the reacting node on behalf of a client must do the binding=
 when receiving (0).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We also ne=
ed to say something on interactions e.g.:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OL=
R of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OL=
R of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same client invalid=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OL=
R of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(i.e. chan=
ge of type is allowed, mixture is not allowed)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve, =
MCruz and all<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On my side=
, &nbsp;I agree with Lionel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I &nbsp;ha=
ve not the &nbsp;same reading of the draft where I have &nbsp;not found the=
 Steve&#8217;s default case.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree wi=
th Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC association relates to this DOIC associat=
ion &nbsp;and the OLR can be different &nbsp;for another DOIC association.
 The basic (or &#8220;default&#8221;) principle is that each DOIC associati=
on has its &#8220;own life&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, &nbs=
p;a server (local policy) can decide &nbsp;to send &nbsp;the same OLR to al=
l its clients (so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define &nbsp;p=
articular
 OLR values for &nbsp;&nbsp;certain clients. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Another &n=
bsp;interest &nbsp;is that &nbsp;when the server wants to update the OLR va=
lues towards &nbsp;clients, it is &nbsp;not obliged to send the new values =
&nbsp;simultaneously
 &nbsp;to all the clients : it may &nbsp;(local server policy) progressivel=
y &nbsp;change &nbsp;the &nbsp;value &nbsp;over a certain duration &nbsp;to=
 minimize &nbsp;sharp transitions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for DOI=
C supporting clients, the current text allows these possibilities, and in p=
articular it satisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A second s=
tep is to address DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over time, &nbsp;we may =
expect that clients will be more and more DOIC supporting; so,
 this is the main target. DAs with non DOIC client would be more for &nbsp;=
&nbsp;a transition (to be considered &nbsp;nevertheless and which may be lo=
ng).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The curren=
t text says that DA is acting on behalf of &#8220;A&#8221; client; so princ=
iple &nbsp;with host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there is no
 difference for the server, as this does not make a difference &nbsp;betwee=
n a DOIC supporting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Neverthele=
ss, and here I come to Steve&#8217;s point, &nbsp;&nbsp;this has a cost imp=
lying the DA to manage OLRs per client. Steve &nbsp;introduces an optimizat=
ion
 where in fact a set of clients are considered for me as a pool regarding &=
nbsp;DOIC where only one OLR applies and where throttling &nbsp;applies &nb=
sp;to the requests of this &nbsp;pool of clients. &nbsp;I am not against to=
 optimization process &nbsp;&nbsp;but this pool concept is new and
 needs some further study. First about the concept of DOIC association whic=
h evolves , as now linked to a pool .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There was =
a MCruz remark about sequence number, a new AVP or a &nbsp;new report type.=
 &nbsp;I see that &nbsp;we may have to review &nbsp;the processing of the s=
eq
 number &nbsp;handling as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;a &#8220;collateral &#8220; effect of the optimization. I woul=
d also think that, instead of introducing a single node indication in the O=
LR (AVP or report type) , it should be a global indication
 as the optimization &nbsp;&nbsp;is to support a global DOIC association. &=
nbsp;To also see if there are not other collateral effects to analyze.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich &nb=
sp;also mentioned that for realm OLRs we may also have &nbsp;a different re=
alm &nbsp;OLR sent to different clients, so this is the same principle as
 Lionel &nbsp;for &nbsp;a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The curren=
t text due to the DOIC association principle, &nbsp;allows this realm OLR p=
er DOIC association for both &nbsp;DOIC&nbsp; supporting clients and &nbsp;=
DAs
 acting on behalf of A client. Then I expect Steve &nbsp;to do the same rem=
ark, with the same reason &nbsp;to have &nbsp;an optimization &nbsp;where a=
ll clients receives &nbsp;the &nbsp;same realm OLR, but to also see the col=
lateral effects.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As a concl=
usion, I think we should remain with the current text as the baseline, foll=
owing the DOIC association principle that Lionel mentions,
 and after more investigation to assess the &nbsp;optimization&nbsp; for ho=
st and realm OLRs with DA supporting non DOIC, &nbsp;this optimization bein=
g optional.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 10:09<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Yes, I agr=
ee with Steve.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange=
.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Lionel,<br>
<br>
The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.&nbsp; If this is the case t=
hen there is little benefit (and significant
 overhead) to requiring an agent to maintain state per non-supporting clien=
t.<br>
<br>
I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.&nbsp; If this is th=
e case then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the =
origin-host in the request and only then
 should agents be required to maintain state for the non-supporting client.=
<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, <a href=3D=
"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I really d=
on't understand but it is not the first time
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings=
;color:#1F497D">J</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What about=
 the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent maintaining ove=
rload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for me,=
 the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavior that was=
 implicit if you consider the comments above.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For me, th=
e option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a specific clien=
t. So over two different DOIC association with the same server/reporting
 node, you can have two different OLRs.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But it doe=
s not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nb=
sp;:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.&nbsp; To this end, it would be better to have this as part of t=
he base specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want=
 the same behavior.<br>
<br>
Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How reacting nodes respond to per Origi=
n-Host reports should be specified in a common way.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz=
 Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">Hello again,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already=
 mentioned in related thread #56.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on ove=
rload mitigation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 =
states &quot;It may be up to the server/agent implementations to decide whe=
n and whether overload mitigation differentiation per client is
 used&quot;.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Therefore, we can eve=
n consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP ap=
plications when required.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best regards</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">/MCruz</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve, all=
,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
I agree with Steve.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I=
 would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing (if any) h=
ost OLR (&#8220;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by
 new host OLR (per client).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host OLR (=
per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new sequence n=
umber, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced,
 on the contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should r=
emain.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order t=
o achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (ho=
st per client), instead of a new AVP.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let me kno=
w your opinions.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.<br>
<br>
It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior the=
n it would be best to have the default,
 implicit, meaning of an overload report to be &quot;applies to all reactin=
g nodes&quot;.&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow a serve=
r to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting node when then gl=
obal reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
<br>
In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.<br>
<br>
My proposal is the following:<br>
<br>
- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.<br>
<br>
- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
<br>
- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not a=
ct on the OLR.<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must a=
pply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients. &nbsp; This=
 implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differen=
tiate which non supporting client originated
 the request.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.<br>
<br>
Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need something like this wording =
independent of the resolution of this issue.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a href=3D"=
mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Is it implicit? </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, th=
is agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on beh=
alf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may supp=
ort DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere th=
e origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the =
added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reportin=
g node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same =
for all the clients.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Regards,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Lionel</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Message d'origine-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hello Ulrich,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wan=
ted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I agree it could be done as you explained in the example belo=
w, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is =
just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ nee=
d to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires sa=
me OLR for any client. </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">/MCruz</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulri=
ch.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] </span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">di=
me@ietf.org</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hi MCruz,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of =
the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host=
 type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1=
 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% red=
uctin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLR=
s to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 request=
ing 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ulrich</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hello JJ and all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">As per email thread, the latest proposal is:</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the ag=
ent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that init=
iated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;=
 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">An Ulrich comments on this:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&quot;This would cover not only the case where an agent takes=
 the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting c=
lient, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a=
 reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same=
 time the role of a reacting node towards the server.&quot;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is exclu=
ded? </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">/MCruz</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hi Mcruz and all</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is =
the &quot;reporting&quot; node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clien=
ts, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine am=
ong which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But=
 in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. </span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Here I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the =
DA behavior when&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host=
-OLR received for one client for other clients&nbsp; .</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">For me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline so=
lution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority sho=
uld be on the baseline.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Jacques </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Message d'origine-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy=E9&n=
bsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.=
org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hello all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Not sure we all have the same understanding here.</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Let me try to explain my concerns.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need fo=
r a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identifi=
ed by &quot;Origin-Host&quot; in the request.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the=
 OLR in the server answer shall be marked:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the=
 answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by &quot=
;Origin-Host&quot; in the request.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D&quot;Origin-Host&quo=
t;, the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the rea=
cting node, then the &quot;Origin-Host&quot; identifies final client, but n=
ot the reacting node.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarificat=
ion about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the ag=
ent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that init=
iated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies t=
his OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">How will this impact the case where the agent is providing ac=
cess to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 &#43; S2) via Agent1. L=
et's consider following example:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it con=
siders this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only a=
s relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR=
 to calculate aggregated Realm overload?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to conside=
r OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explici=
t information, as in b) below.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the cli=
ent (&quot;Origin-Host&quot; in the request) from which traffic reduction s=
hall apply.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identif=
y when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identi=
fied by new AVP.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Let me know your opinions please</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">/MCruz</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: ext Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@=
ietf.org</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Steve,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">please see inline.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ulrich</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ulrich,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently =
outlined.&nbsp; </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOI=
C supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting nod=
e.&nbsp; This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this pr=
oposal.&nbsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is cu=
rrently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that rec=
eives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=
&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for =
the non-supporting client.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple=
 agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as thi=
s could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a s=
ingle transaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for =
the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it =
is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt=
;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the=
 agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differen=
tiate overload reports.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking=
 the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp=
; Absence of the &quot;single-client-only&quot; AVP would mean that the rep=
ort applies to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that t=
he OLR applies to the Origin-Host.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimizati=
on for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: un=
marked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting no=
de does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the=
 binding to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Steve</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ben,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far=
 (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Now you seem to address two points:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clar=
ifying text for 5.5. as follows:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent ne=
eds to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated =
the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. </span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the r=
ole of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client,=
 but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a repor=
ting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time =
the role of a reacting node towards the server.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the cli=
ent Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting diffe=
rent amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 opti=
ons:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">1. ignore the 3GPP requirement</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3=
. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">So far I understood that people favoured option 3.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">See also inline.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ulrich</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ma=
ilto:ben@nostrum.com</a>]</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wr=
ote:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">#35: additional report types are proposed</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Dear all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types=
. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initia=
ted by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received =
OLR to the origin-host of the client.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I do not agree.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to th=
at client.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&=
nbsp; If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client,=
 is the reacting node from the server's perspective.</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The serv=
er does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes=
 the role of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an=
 origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless=
 of DOIC support at the clients.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOI=
C support at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change =
that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of r=
educing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacti=
ng nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It=
 doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_____________________________________________________________=
____________________________________________________________</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informa=
tions confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si =
vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. L=
es messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete alter=
e, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">they should not be distributed, used or copied without author=
isation.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If you have received this email in error, please notify the s=
ender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages t=
hat have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Thank you.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_____________________________________________________________=
____________________________________________________________</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informa=
tions confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si =
vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. L=
es messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><span lang=
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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+1
On 2/26/14 5:22 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Hi JJacques,
>
>  
>
> thank you for the summary.
>
>  
>
> I think it does not matter whether we call
>
> A)      "OLR per client" the base solution and "OLR for all clients"
> the optimization or
>
> B)      "OLR for all clients" the base solution and "OLR per client"
> the (3GPP) extension
>
> as long as we cover both.
>
>  
>
> I don't think there are impacts on sequence number handling, report
> types or DOIC associations.
>
>  
>
> My proposal then is to add a new mandatory AVP of type enumerated to
> OC-OLR with values
>
> (0)    OLR per client
>
> (1)    OLR for all clients
>
>  
>
> Reporting nodes that better like A) could allways send (0) unless they
> support the "optimization" and want to use it;
>
> Reporting nodes that better like B) could allways send (1) unless they
> support the "(3GPP) extension" and want to use it.
>
> Clients can safely ignore the new AVP.
>
> Agents taking the role of the reacting node on behalf of a client must
> do the binding when receiving (0).
>
>  
>
> We also need to say something on interactions e.g.:
>
> A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid
>
> A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same
> client invalid
>
> A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid
>
>  
>
> (i.e. change of type is allowed, mixture is not allowed)
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext TROTTIN,
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Hi Steve, MCruz and all
>
>  
>
> On my side,  I agree with Lionel.
>
>  
>
> I  have not the  same reading of the draft where I have  not found the
> Steve's default case.
>
> I agree with Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC association relates to
> this DOIC association  and the OLR can be different  for another DOIC
> association. The basic (or "default") principle is that each DOIC
> association has its "own life".
>
>  
>
> Then,  a server (local policy) can decide  to send  the same OLR to
> all its clients (so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define
>  particular OLR values for   certain clients.
>
> Another  interest  is that  when the server wants to update the OLR
> values towards  clients, it is  not obliged to send the new values
>  simultaneously  to all the clients : it may  (local server policy)
> progressively  change  the  value  over a certain duration  to
> minimize  sharp transitions.
>
>  
>
> So for DOIC supporting clients, the current text allows these
> possibilities, and in particular it satisfies the 3GGP client
> mitigation requirement.
>
>  
>
> A second step is to address DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over
> time,  we may expect that clients will be more and more DOIC
> supporting; so, this is the main target. DAs with non DOIC client
> would be more for   a transition (to be considered  nevertheless and
> which may be long).
>
>  
>
> The current text says that DA is acting on behalf of "A" client; so
> principle  with host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there
> is no difference for the server, as this does not make a difference
>  between a DOIC supporting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.
>
> Nevertheless, and here I come to Steve's point,   this has a cost
> implying the DA to manage OLRs per client. Steve  introduces an
> optimization where in fact a set of clients are considered for me as a
> pool regarding  DOIC where only one OLR applies and where throttling
>  applies  to the requests of this  pool of clients.  I am not against
> to optimization process   but this pool concept is new and needs some
> further study. First about the concept of DOIC association which
> evolves , as now linked to a pool .
>
>  
>
> There was a MCruz remark about sequence number, a new AVP or a  new
> report type.  I see that  we may have to review  the processing of the
> seq number  handling as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type;
> so   a "collateral " effect of the optimization. I would also think
> that, instead of introducing a single node indication in the OLR (AVP
> or report type) , it should be a global indication as the optimization
>   is to support a global DOIC association.  To also see if there are
> not other collateral effects to analyze.
>
>  
>
> Ulrich  also mentioned that for realm OLRs we may also have  a
> different realm  OLR sent to different clients, so this is the same
> principle as Lionel  for  a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I
> agree.
>
>  
>
> The current text due to the DOIC association principle,  allows this
> realm OLR per DOIC association for both  DOIC  supporting clients and
>  DAs acting on behalf of A client. Then I expect Steve  to do the same
> remark, with the same reason  to have  an optimization  where all
> clients receives  the  same realm OLR, but to also see the collateral
> effects.
>
>  
>
> As a conclusion, I think we should remain with the current text as the
> baseline, following the DOIC association principle that Lionel
> mentions, and after more investigation to assess the  optimization 
> for host and realm OLRs with DA supporting non DOIC,  this
> optimization being optional.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
>  
>
> JJacques
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Maria Cruz
> Bartolome
> *Envoyé :* mardi 25 février 2014 10:09
> *À :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Yes, I agree with Steve.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Donovan
> *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24
> *To:* lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>;
> dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Lionel,
>
> The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload
> report per client or it is sending a global overload report that
> applies to all clients. 
>
> I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be
> to have a single overload reduction value for the application and that
> that overload reduction value will apply to all clients.  If this is
> the case then there is little benefit (and significant overhead) to
> requiring an agent to maintain state per non-supporting client.
>
> I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to
> have a different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.  If this
> is the case then the reporting node should indicate that it only
> applies to the origin-host in the request and only then should agents
> be required to maintain state for the non-supporting client.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>     I really don't understand but it is not the first time J
>
>      
>
>     What about the DOIC association? What about my assumption about
>     agent maintaining overload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?
>
>     So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the
>     agent behavior that was implicit if you consider the comments above.
>
>      
>
>     For me, the option for the server is only to send a specific OLR
>     for a specific client. So over two different DOIC association with
>     the same server/reporting node, you can have two different OLRs.
>
>     But it does not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.
>
>      
>
>     Lionel
>
>      
>
>     *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Steve
>     Donovan
>     *Envoyé :* lundi 24 février 2014 19:50
>     *À :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Objet :* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Maria Cruz,
>
>     To the degree possible we should minimize the per application
>     overload logic required.  To this end, it would be better to have
>     this as part of the base specification, as it is likely that
>     most/all applications will want the same behavior.
>
>     Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an
>     implementation detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes
>     respond to per Origin-Host reports should be specified in a common
>     way.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>         Hello again,
>
>          
>
>         I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I
>         already mentioned in related thread #56.
>
>          
>
>         This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on
>         overload mitigation differentiation per client. But this is a
>         server option:
>
>         TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent
>         implementations to decide when and whether overload mitigation
>         differentiation per client is used".
>
>          
>
>         Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base
>         draft, and be considered by 3GPP applications when required.
>
>          
>
>         Best regards
>
>         /MCruz
>
>          
>
>         *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>         *Maria Cruz Bartolome
>         *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
>         *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Steve, all,
>
>
>         I agree with Steve.
>
>          
>
>         However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid
>         that existing (if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting
>         node is replaced by new host OLR (per client).
>
>         Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the
>         server uses a new sequence number, but existing host OLR (all)
>         shall not be replaced, on the contrary both Host OLR (all) and
>         new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
>
>         In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a
>         dedicated OLR type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.
>
>          
>
>         Let me know your opinions.
>
>         Best regards
>
>         /MCruz
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>         *Steve Donovan
>         *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
>         *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the
>         Origin-Host in the request is not just an optimization for agents.
>
>         It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior
>         of a reporting node (server) would be to report a single
>         overload value to all reacting nodes, be they clients or
>         agents.  If this is the default behavior then it would be best
>         to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report
>         to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this
>         new feature is to allow a server to further throttle a
>         specific, overly active, reacting node when then global
>         reduction percentage doesn't do the job.
>
>         In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a
>         single global reduction percentage then requiring agents to
>         bind an overload report to each non supporting clients pushes
>         a lot of extra work on agents when it adds no value.
>
>         My proposal is the following:
>
>         - Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???)
>         to overload reports that indicate when an overload report
>         applies to a specific reacting node.
>
>         - Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all
>         reacting nodes (clients and agents acting on behalf of
>         non-DOIC clients).
>
>         - Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if
>         the overload report contents are different from the global
>         overload report.
>
>         - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the
>         Single-Node AVP must do the following:
>           - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent
>         must not act on the OLR.
>           - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the
>         agent must apply the OLR to traffic from the set of non
>         supporting clients.   This implies that when making throttling
>         decisions, the agent does not differentiate which non
>         supporting client originated the request.
>
>         - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node
>         AVP for a transaction originated by a non supporting client
>         must bind that OLR to that single client.
>
>         Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is
>         missing from the -01 version of the draft.  We will need
>         something like this wording independent of the resolution of
>         this issue.
>
>         Steve
>
>         On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
>         <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>             Is it implicit? 
>
>              
>
>             If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.
>
>              
>
>             Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.
>
>              
>
>             Regards,
>
>              
>
>             Lionel
>
>              
>
>             -----Message d'origine-----
>
>             De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>             Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 14:27
>
>             À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hello Ulrich,
>
>              
>
>             I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.
>
>              
>
>             I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. 
>
>              
>
>             I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.
>
>              
>
>             Best regards
>
>             /MCruz
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] 
>
>             Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
>
>             To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hi MCruz,
>
>             there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.
>
>              
>
>             If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.
>
>              
>
>             Best regards
>
>             Ulrich
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>             Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
>
>             To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hello JJ and all,
>
>              
>
>             As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
>
>             "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." 
>
>              
>
>             An Ulrich comments on this:
>
>             "This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."
>
>              
>
>             Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? 
>
>             Best regards
>
>             /MCruz
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
>
>             Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
>
>             To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hi Mcruz and all
>
>              
>
>             I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. 
>
>             Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients  .
>
>              
>
>             For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.
>
>              
>
>             Best regards
>
>              
>
>             Jacques 
>
>              
>
>                
>
>              
>
>             -----Message d'origine-----
>
>             De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 13:21 À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hello all,
>
>              
>
>             Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
>
>             Let me try to explain my concerns.
>
>              
>
>             The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
>
>             Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:
>
>              
>
>             a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
>
>             Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.
>
>             But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
>
>             Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):
>
>             "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
>
>             But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
>
>             How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:
>
>             - C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
>
>             - S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
>
>             - Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?
>
>             In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.
>
>              
>
>             b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
>
>             With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.
>
>              
>
>             Let me know your opinions please
>
>             Best regards
>
>             /MCruz
>
>              
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>             Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
>
>             To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Steve,
>
>              
>
>             please see inline.
>
>              
>
>             Ulrich
>
>              
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>
>             Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
>
>             To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Ulrich,
>
>              
>
>             I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.  
>
>              
>
>             First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.
>
>             <Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
>
>             <Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>
>
>              
>
>             My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.
>
>             <Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
>
>             To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.
>
>             <Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.</Ulrich>     
>
>              
>
>             Steve
>
>             On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>             Ben,
>
>              
>
>             the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). 
>
>             Now you seem to address two points:
>
>             a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
>
>             To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:
>
>              
>
>             When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. 
>
>              
>
>             This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.
>
>              
>
>             b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
>
>             1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
>
>             2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.
>
>              
>
>             So far I understood that people favoured option 3.
>
>              
>
>             See also inline.
>
>              
>
>             Ulrich
>
>              
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
>
>             Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
>
>             To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>             Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>              
>
>             #35: additional report types are proposed
>
>              
>
>             Dear all,
>
>              
>
>             I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
>
>              
>
>             When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.
>
>              
>
>             I do not agree.
>
>              
>
>             You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
>
>             <Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.
>
>             <Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
>
>             <Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client</Ulrich>
>
>              
>
>              Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.
>
>              
>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/26/14 5:22 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
            JJacques,
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">thank you for the summary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I think it does not matter whether we call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
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                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&#8220;OLR per client&#8221; the base solution and &#8220;OLR
            for all clients&#8221; the optimization or<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
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              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">&#8220;OLR for all clients&#8221; the base solution and
            &#8220;OLR per client&#8221; the (3GPP) extension<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">as long as we cover both.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I don&#8217;t think there are impacts on sequence
            number handling, report types or DOIC associations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">My proposal then is to add a new mandatory AVP
            of type enumerated to OC-OLR with values<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">(0)<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">OLR per client<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">(1)<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">OLR for all clients<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Reporting nodes that better like A) could
            allways send (0) unless they support the &#8220;optimization&#8221; and
            want to use it;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Reporting nodes that better like B) could
            allways send (1) unless they support the &#8220;(3GPP) extension&#8221;
            and want to use it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Clients can safely ignore the new AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Agents taking the role of the reacting node on
            behalf of a client must do the binding when receiving (0).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">We also need to say something on interactions
            e.g.:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of
            any type invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of
            type (0) bound to the same client invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of
            type (1) invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">(i.e. change of type is allowed, mixture is not
            allowed)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES
                (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Hi Steve, MCruz and all<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">On my side, &nbsp;I agree with Lionel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I &nbsp;have not the &nbsp;same reading of the draft
            where I have &nbsp;not found the Steve&#8217;s default case.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I agree with Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC
            association relates to this DOIC association &nbsp;and the OLR
            can be different &nbsp;for another DOIC association. The basic
            (or &#8220;default&#8221;) principle is that each DOIC association has
            its &#8220;own life&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Then, &nbsp;a server (local policy) can decide &nbsp;to
            send &nbsp;the same OLR to all its clients (so for all its DOIC
            associations) , or it can define &nbsp;particular OLR values for
            &nbsp;&nbsp;certain clients. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Another &nbsp;interest &nbsp;is that &nbsp;when the server
            wants to update the OLR values towards &nbsp;clients, it is &nbsp;not
            obliged to send the new values &nbsp;simultaneously &nbsp;to all the
            clients : it may &nbsp;(local server policy) progressively
            &nbsp;change &nbsp;the &nbsp;value &nbsp;over a certain duration &nbsp;to minimize
            &nbsp;sharp transitions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">So for DOIC supporting clients, the current
            text allows these possibilities, and in particular it
            satisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A second step is to address DAs supporting non
            DOIC clients. Over time, &nbsp;we may expect that clients will be
            more and more DOIC supporting; so, this is the main target.
            DAs with non DOIC client would be more for &nbsp;&nbsp;a transition
            (to be considered &nbsp;nevertheless and which may be long).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">The current text says that DA is acting on
            behalf of &#8220;A&#8221; client; so principle &nbsp;with host OLR per DOIC
            association also applies, and there is no difference for the
            server, as this does not make a difference &nbsp;between a DOIC
            supporting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Nevertheless, and here I come to Steve&#8217;s point,
            &nbsp;&nbsp;this has a cost implying the DA to manage OLRs per client.
            Steve &nbsp;introduces an optimization where in fact a set of
            clients are considered for me as a pool regarding &nbsp;DOIC
            where only one OLR applies and where throttling &nbsp;applies &nbsp;to
            the requests of this &nbsp;pool of clients. &nbsp;I am not against to
            optimization process &nbsp;&nbsp;but this pool concept is new and
            needs some further study. First about the concept of DOIC
            association which evolves , as now linked to a pool .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">There was a MCruz remark about sequence number,
            a new AVP or a &nbsp;new report type. &nbsp;I see that &nbsp;we may have to
            review &nbsp;the processing of the seq number &nbsp;handling as also
            dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so &nbsp;&nbsp;a &#8220;collateral
            &#8220; effect of the optimization. I would also think that,
            instead of introducing a single node indication in the OLR
            (AVP or report type) , it should be a global indication as
            the optimization &nbsp;&nbsp;is to support a global DOIC association.
            &nbsp;To also see if there are not other collateral effects to
            analyze.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich &nbsp;also mentioned that for realm OLRs we
            may also have &nbsp;a different realm &nbsp;OLR sent to different
            clients, so this is the same principle as Lionel &nbsp;for &nbsp;a
            realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">The current text due to the DOIC association
            principle, &nbsp;allows this realm OLR per DOIC association for
            both &nbsp;DOIC&nbsp; supporting clients and &nbsp;DAs acting on behalf of
            A client. Then I expect Steve &nbsp;to do the same remark, with
            the same reason &nbsp;to have &nbsp;an optimization &nbsp;where all clients
            receives &nbsp;the &nbsp;same realm OLR, but to also see the
            collateral effects.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">As a conclusion, I think we should remain with
            the current text as the baseline, following the DOIC
            association principle that Lionel mentions, and after more
            investigation to assess the &nbsp;optimization&nbsp; for host and
            realm OLRs with DA supporting non DOIC, &nbsp;this optimization
            being optional.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">JJacques
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="FR"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> mardi 25 f&eacute;vrier 2014 10:09<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Yes, I agree with Steve.</span><span
            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>;
                <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">Lionel,<br>
            <br>
            The question is whether the reporting node is sending the
            overload report per client or it is sending a global
            overload report that applies to all clients.&nbsp;
            <br>
            <br>
            I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting
            node will be to have a single overload reduction value for
            the application and that that overload reduction value will
            apply to all clients.&nbsp; If this is the case then there is
            little benefit (and significant overhead) to requiring an
            agent to maintain state per non-supporting client.<br>
            <br>
            I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being
            able to have a different reduction value for specific
            reacting nodes.&nbsp; If this is the case then the reporting node
            should indicate that it only applies to the origin-host in
            the request and only then should agents be required to
            maintain state for the non-supporting client.<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">I really don't understand but it is not the
              first time
            </span><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">J</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">What about the DOIC association? What about
              my assumption about agent maintaining overload control
              state for non-DOIC enabled client?</span><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a
              clarification on the agent behavior that was implicit if
              you consider the comments above.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">For me, the option for the server is only to
              send a specific OLR for a specific client. So over two
              different DOIC association with the same server/reporting
              node, you can have two different OLRs.</span><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">But it does not change the way the OLR is
              handled by reacting nodes.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Lionel</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
                  <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 19:50<br>
                  <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US">Maria Cruz,<br>
              <br>
              To the degree possible we should minimize the per
              application overload logic required.&nbsp; To this end, it
              would be better to have this as part of the base
              specification, as it is likely that most/all applications
              will want the same behavior.<br>
              <br>
              Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is
              an implementation detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How
              reacting nodes respond to per Origin-Host reports should
              be specified in a common way.<br>
              <br>
              Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM,
                Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">Hello
                again,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">I
                forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I
                already mentioned in related thread #56.</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">This
                is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on
                overload mitigation differentiation per client. But this
                is a server option:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up
                to the server/agent implementations to decide when and
                whether overload mitigation differentiation per client
                is used".</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">Therefore, we can even consider this new
                OLR out of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP
                applications when required.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
                    <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Steve, all,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><br>
                I agree with Steve.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">However, I would like to share one concern.
                We need to avoid that existing (if any) host OLR
                (&#8220;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by new
                host OLR (per client).</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP
                requires that the server uses a new sequence number, but
                existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the
                contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per
                client) should remain.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">In order to achieve this, it could be more
                convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (host per
                client), instead of a new AVP.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Let me know your opinions.</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
                    <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                lang="EN-US">Adding an AVP to indicate that a report
                applies just to the Origin-Host in the request is not
                just an optimization for agents.<br>
                <br>
                It had been my assumption all along that the default
                behavior of a reporting node (server) would be to report
                a single overload value to all reacting nodes, be they
                clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior then
                it would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning
                of an overload report to be "applies to all reacting
                nodes".&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow
                a server to further throttle a specific, overly active,
                reacting node when then global reduction percentage
                doesn't do the job.<br>
                <br>
                In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes
                have a single global reduction percentage then requiring
                agents to bind an overload report to each non supporting
                clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it
                adds no value.<br>
                <br>
                My proposal is the following:<br>
                <br>
                - Add an optional AVP (call it something like
                Single-Node???) to overload reports that indicate when
                an overload report applies to a specific reacting node.<br>
                <br>
                - Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies
                to all reacting nodes (clients and agents acting on
                behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
                <br>
                - Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node
                AVP if the overload report contents are different from
                the global overload report.<br>
                <br>
                - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the
                Single-Node AVP must do the following:<br>
                &nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the
                agent must not act on the OLR.<br>
                &nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients
                the agent must apply the OLR to traffic from the set of
                non supporting clients. &nbsp; This implies that when making
                throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate
                which non supporting client originated the request.<br>
                <br>
                - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the
                Single-Node AVP for a transaction originated by a non
                supporting client must bind that OLR to that single
                client.<br>
                <br>
                Note that the agent behavior is currently something that
                is missing from the -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will
                need something like this wording independent of the
                resolution of this issue.<br>
                <br>
                Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 2/24/14 8:06
                  AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                    lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Is it implicit? </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Lionel</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Message d'origine-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 14:27</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hello Ulrich,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hi MCruz,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hello JJ and all,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">As per email thread, the latest proposal is:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">An Ulrich comments on this:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hi Mcruz and all</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Here I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavior when&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients&nbsp; .</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">For me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Jacques </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Message d'origine-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:21 &Agrave;&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hello all,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Not sure we all have the same understanding here.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Let me try to explain my concerns.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Let me know your opinions please</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: ext Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Steve,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">please see inline.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ulrich,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp; </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Steve</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ben,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Now you seem to address two points:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">1. ignore the 3GPP requirement</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">So far I understood that people favoured option 3.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">See also inline.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: ext Ben Campbell [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>]</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">#35: additional report types are proposed</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Dear all,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I do not agree.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Thank you.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Thank you.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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Ulrich,

An OLR is included in every answer message only when the reporting node
is in an overload state.  There are no overload reports when the
reacting node is not overloaded.

Steve

On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Steve, Ben, all,
>
> on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not required for loss i.e. not required for  draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can  leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed (I still don't see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs to be discussed when discussing those drafts.
>
> On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Anyway, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messages (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already knows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the reporting node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).
>
> Ulrich
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM
> To: Steve Donovan
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
>
>
> On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>> I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:
>>
>> 1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.
>>
>> this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number of requests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.
>>
>> There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state about traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we choose, leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.
>>
>> 2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload supported in the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter network.  For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts to the knowledge of whether servers support overload.  In the case that the server does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the server, up to the point that the server sends an OLR.  If the client determines that the server does not support overload then it might have a configured maximum rate that it will send to the server.
>>
>> My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to better implementation client implementations.
> +1 on both points
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      An OLR is included in every answer message only when the reporting
      node is in an overload state.&nbsp; There are no overload reports when
      the reacting node is not overloaded.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B48BB@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Steve, Ben, all,

on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not required for loss i.e. not required for  draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can  leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed (I still don't see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs to be discussed when discussing those drafts.

On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Anyway, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messages (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already knows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the reporting node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status


On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:

1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.

this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number of requests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.

There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state about traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we choose, leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.

2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload supported in the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter network.  For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts to the knowledge of whether servers support overload.  In the case that the server does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the server, up to the point that the server sends an OLR.  If the client determines that the server does not support overload then it might have a configured maximum rate that it will send to the server.

My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to better implementation client implementations.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
+1 on both points
_______________________________________________
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Steve,

please find some proposed updates attached.

Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:38 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] DOIC Issue Status

All,

My apologies for the flood of messages to the DIME list today.  I was in th=
e process of compiling the attached document.

The document attempts to capture the status of all of the open trouble tick=
ets for the DIOC specification.  It is the first draft so be nice if there =
are obvious errors.

I am compiling this in advance of next weeks DIME working group meeting in =
London.  I hope to have resolved issues updated in a preliminary version of=
 a -02 version of the DOIC draft prior to the DIME meeting.

Please let me know if there is disagreement on the items I have marked as r=
esolved, as I will be making those updates to the DOIC draft first.

It is also possible that some of those I have marked as open can be moved p=
retty quickly to resolved.

Regards,

Steve

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">please fin=
d some proposed updates attached.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Dime] DOIC Issue Status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All,<br>
<br>
My apologies for the flood of messages to the DIME list today.&nbsp; I was =
in the process of compiling the attached document.<br>
<br>
The document attempts to capture the status of all of the open trouble tick=
ets for the DIOC specification.&nbsp; It is the first draft so be nice if t=
here are obvious errors.<br>
<br>
I am compiling this in advance of next weeks DIME working group meeting in =
London.&nbsp; I hope to have resolved issues updated in a preliminary versi=
on of a -02 version of the DOIC draft prior to the DIME meeting.<br>
<br>
Please let me know if there is disagreement on the items I have marked as r=
esolved, as I will be making those updates to the DOIC draft first.<br>
<br>
It is also possible that some of those I have marked as open can be moved p=
retty quickly to resolved.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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Fine

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 8:43
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion

Hi

Remove "from now on" is acceptable for me, but  I have a preference for the=
 reverse wording Lionel proposes, which is shorter and brings the clarifica=
tion I was looking for,:

For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 has been received, the reacting node which

 would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90

 packets to the reporting node.


Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 17:00
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

I'm with Lionel.  I don't understand why the proposed wording is confusing.=
  Reacting nodes always only apply the reduction percentage for the period =
of time that the specific overload report is active.  That period either en=
ds when a new overload report is received or when the overload report expir=
es.

That said, I'm happy with just removing the words "from no on" as proposed =
by Lionel below.

Steve

On 2/24/14 7:26 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

I don't see the issue, as explained in my mail but OK to remove it.



If "for now" is removed, the resulting text would be:



  For example if the reacting node has been sending

  100 packets per second to the reporting node, then

  a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 10

  would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST

  only send 90 packets per second.



Maybe it would be even easier to reverse the sentence as follow:



 For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 has been received, the reacting node which

 would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90

 packets to the reporting node.





But I'm fine if the initial proposed revised text is kept.



Lionel



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:13

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion



Hello,



I agree with Ulrich's proposal

Cheers

/MCruz



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46

To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@iet=
f.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion



I share JJacques concern. Replacing "from now on" with "for the period that=
 the overload report is active"

is misleading. May be its better to simply remove "from now on".



Ulrich











From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion



Hi MCruz, Steve



I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sur=
e.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on =
  "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to wh=
ich it refers.



During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic t=
he reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received th=
e OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and fro=
m the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  whi=
ch I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which =
I also agree.



As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may unders=
tand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think=
 to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.



JJacques





De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange=
.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33

=C0 : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion



+1 (including Steve comment)



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion



Maria Cruz,



I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change belo=
w.



Steve

On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history



Following agreement is reached:



 Now (chapter 4.7):

    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.



 Proposal:

   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.          =
        <----





 Now (chapter 5.5.2):

      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to

      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the

      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the

      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value

      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true

      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up

      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every

      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application

      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100



  Proposal:

 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce

 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the

 reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          <---

 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       =
<---

 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to

 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th

 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try

 to recover from it.

SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"















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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Fine<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 8:43<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previo=
us history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Remove &#8220;from now on=
&#8221; is acceptable for me, but &nbsp;I have a preference for the reverse=
 wording Lionel proposes, which is shorter and brings the clarification I
 was looking for,:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;10 has been received, the reacting node which <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90 <o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>&nbsp;packets to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 17:00<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm with Lionel.&nbsp; I don't understand why the pr=
oposed wording is confusing.&nbsp; Reacting nodes always only apply the red=
uction percentage for the period of time that the specific overload report =
is active.&nbsp; That period either ends when a new
 overload report is received or when the overload report expires.<br>
<br>
That said, I'm happy with just removing the words &quot;from no on&quot; as=
 proposed by Lionel below.<br>
<br>
Steve<br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 7:26 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I don't see the issue, as explained in my mail but OK to remove it. <o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If &quot;for now&quot; is removed, the resulting text would be:<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; For example if the reacting node has been sending<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>&nbsp; 100 packets per second to the reporting node, then<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>&nbsp; a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value&nbsp;of 10<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>&nbsp; only send 90 packets per second.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Maybe it would be even easier to reverse the sentence as follow:<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;10 has been received, the reacting node which <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90 <o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>&nbsp;packets to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>But I'm fine if the initial proposed revised text is kept.<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lionel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:13<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on prev=
ious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hello,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I agree with Ulrich's proposal<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cheers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>/MCruz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime@i=
etf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous=
 history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I share JJacques concern. Replacing &quot;from now on&quot; with &quot=
;for the period that the overload report is active&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>is misleading. May be its better to simply remove &quot;from now on&qu=
ot;.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous=
 history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi MCruz, Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I also agree on the &quot;would send &quot; instead of the &quot;would=
 have sent&quot; &nbsp;for sure. &nbsp;But I have &nbsp;a small concern/ cl=
arification &nbsp;about the Steve comment on &nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;for the peri=
od that the overload report is active&quot; and the example to which it ref=
ers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long, &nbsp;the=
 traffic the reacting node would send may be 100 packet &nbsp;when it has j=
ust received the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (=
or 80), and from the OLR definition, &nbsp;&nbsp;it would send 120x0,9 (or =
80* 0,9) packets, on&nbsp; which I agree. This is in line &nbsp;with the ev=
ery 10th packet dropping &nbsp;on which I also agree. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As the text &nbsp;&nbsp;would &nbsp;be written with the Steve modifica=
tion , we may understand it is &nbsp;80 Packet during all the time &nbsp;th=
e OLR is active. Not yet think to an alternative text, but first to see if =
you agree with my remark.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>JJacques <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.o=
rg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on prev=
ious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&#43;1 (including Steve comment)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Envoy=E9&nbsp;: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on prev=
ious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Maria Cruz,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I support your suggested changes.&nbsp; I have one further suggested c=
hange below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Steve<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Following agreement is reached:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Now (chapter 4.7):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is =
type of Unsigned32<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and describes the percentage of the traffic that th=
e sender is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise =
would have sent.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type o=
f Unsigned32&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and describes the percentage of the traffic that the=
 sender is&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise w=
ould send.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;Now (chapter 5.5.2):<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates that the reporting node urges=
 the reacting node to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduce its traffic by a given percentag=
e.&nbsp; For example if the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node has been sending 100 pack=
ets per second to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reporting node, then a reception of OC-=
Reduction-Percentage value<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of 10 would mean that from now on the r=
eacting node MUST only send<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90 packets per second.&nbsp; How the re=
acting node achieves the &quot;true<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduction&quot; transactions leading to=
 the sent request messages is up<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the implementation.&nbsp; The reacti=
ng node MAY simply drop every<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10th packet from its output queue and l=
et the generic application<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logic try to recover from it.0 &lt; val=
ue &lt; 100<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; Proposal:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce <=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre> reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of =
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the &quot;t=
rue&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> reduction&quot; transactions leading to the sent request messages is =
up to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=
 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;packet from its output queue and let the generic application log=
ic try <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;to recover from it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SRD&gt; Replace &quot;from now on&quot; in the above with &quot;for th=
e period that the overload report is active&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></pre>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
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I'm ok with taking the feature that allows a server to control the rate
of new session requests into a separate extension draft.  I was
attempting to solve that problem with the RRR report and that doesn't
quite fit.

I'm also OK with leaving the definition of the RRR Ben outlined it in
previous emails.  It is an overload report that is realm wide in scope
and can be sent by any Diameter node that understands the realm overload
status. 

I will admit that I see limited value of the RRRs because the ability to
control realm wide overload with them is different per application and
is complicated.

The better way of controlling the traffic to the realm as a whole is to
support a true realm overload report as proposed in ticket #55.

Steve

On 2/26/14 4:03 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
> Dear all
>
> About this thread, I am in line with Ulrich and Mcruz comments that realm OLRS are generated  by DOICs DAs dealing with realm, overload.
> Regarding Lionel comment that a server, aware of the overload  of other servers, can generate a realm OLR, in fact in this case  the node supports the server functional entity  and a DA  functional entity addressing realm overload. This is common for implementations to do such integrations (eg in 3GPP) but it does not change the content of a functional entity 
>
> Regarding Steve concern, I think (as Ben) this is a new requirement where server would like to drive the behavior of a client on the type of requests. My current understanding is that the server indicates an overload and then this is to the client (and to the DA acting on realm requests) to decide on what is throttled/rerouted and this is quite application dependent. Personally, I do not yet see the need for such a server requirement. 
>
> So this is a new extension to investigate later (including the requiremnt or this extension)) and outside of our currents scope for the baseline draft.
>
> Best regards
>
> Jacques 
>
>  
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Ben Campbell
> Envoyé : mardi 25 février 2014 20:23
> À : Steve Donovan
> Cc : dime@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>
> On Feb 25, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>> Ben,
>>
>> I'm asserting that there are valid use cases (3GPP PCC for one) for a server sending a RRR that only impacts realm routed requests being sent to that server.  This is different than a RRR that reports on all realm routed requests sent to any server in the realm.
> Then that is something different than they way I expected RRR reports (and I assume others) expected them to be used, and I think it would give incorrect behavior for other use cases. (1)
>
> For example, lets assume a client knows about (either through configuration or dynamic discovery) two next hop destinations (A and B)  that can handle the Foo realm for a given application. It, at least initially, has no idea if those destinations are agents or servers. If that client receives an RRR OLR from A, is it allowed (or even expected)  to shift load to B? My intent for the RRR report type, based on our early discussions of the mixed-state scenario, was no. But I think the way you describe it, the answer would be yes.
>
> I think we are talking about two distinct use cases. One is reporting overload that impacts the entire pool of servers that handle a particular realm+application. Another is is to allow reporting of overload that is created due to some number-of-session constrained resource. I agree both use cases are interesting, and potentially needed. But I don't think a single report type, without further modification, can handle both use cases. 
>
> I also think a single host could be session-constrained, and a pool of servers handling a realm could become session constrained. That suggests we need a way of saying "reduce (new) sessions" that can work for both host and RRR reports. That could be a separate algorithm, or some markup that says "please reduce sessions".  
>
> (1) To some degree, I think we are suffering from our choice to use report-types to distinguish these sort of semantics, rather than the scope concept in the Roach draft. The fundamental difference is an OLR could combine multiple scopes (e.g. "new session for realm Foo at host A"  , but can only have one type. (e.g. "realm foo" or "host a".)
>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> On 2/25/14 12:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>> I think that both models are reasonable deployments. Our definitions of HRR and RRR should support both approaches. I say this with the caveat that, if a server sends an RRR report, it is claiming authoritative knowledge of all servers in the realm.
>>>
>>> Agents sending reports to clients can take _any_ input they want to. That could be host reports from servers, RRR reports from servers, Diameter errors, transport errors, and any number of proprietary methods.
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) 
>>> <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC associations with the servers.
>>>>  
>>>> Ulrich
>>>>  
>>>> From: ext Steve Donovan [
>>>> mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>>>> ]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
>>>> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; 
>>>> dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload 
>>>> report type
>>>>  
>>>> How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?
>>>>
>>>> I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those aggregated reports.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I agree with MCruz.
>>>>  
>>>> Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
>>>>  
>>>> Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.
>>>>  
>>>> Ulrich
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
>>>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome;
>>>> dime@ietf.org; draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload 
>>>> report type
>>>>  
>>>> Maria Cruz,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).
>>>>
>>>> My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the server does not want to receive new sessions.  
>>>>
>>>> Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.
>>>>
>>>> I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.
>>>>
>>>> Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone, which definition applies?
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>>>> Steve,
>>>>  
>>>> See some comments below please.
>>>> /MCruz
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
>>>> Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
>>>> To: 
>>>> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; srdonovan@usdonovans.com
>>>>
>>>> Cc: 
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload 
>>>> report type
>>>>  
>>>> #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
>>>>  
>>>>  I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 
>>>> version will  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies 
>>>> independent of the actual  name of the report.
>>>>  
>>>>  The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that 
>>>> the  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage 
>>>> of realm  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
>>>>  
>>>>  This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client 
>>>> throttling  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of 
>>>> servers for that  Diameter application.
>>>> [MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.
>>>>  
>>>>  Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter 
>>>> application and  all of those server are able to handle any 
>>>> transaction for that  application.
>>>>  
>>>>  When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease 
>>>> the  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed 
>>>> requests.  The  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
>>>> [MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
>>>>  
>>>>  Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able 
>>>> to  handle new sessions.
>>>>  
>>>>  Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in 
>>>> the  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice 
>>>> but the  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even 
>>>> when these  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the 
>>>> non overloaded  servers.
>>>>  
>>>>  The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be 
>>>> handled by  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there 
>>>> are other servers  able to handle the new session and, if so, can 
>>>> adjust the percentage of  requests routed to the overloaded server.
>>>>  
>>>>  Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request 
>>>> from the  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This 
>>>> prevents the report  from being acted on by either multiple agents 
>>>> (if multiple are in the
>>>>  path) or by an agent and a client.
>>>>  
>>>>  Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by  
>>>> throttling the requested percentage.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I'm ok with taking the
      feature that allows a server to control the rate of new session
      requests into a separate extension draft.&nbsp; I was attempting to
      solve that problem with the RRR report and that doesn't quite fit.<br>
      <br>
      I'm also OK with leaving the definition of the RRR Ben outlined it
      in previous emails.&nbsp; It is an overload report that is realm wide
      in scope and can be sent by any Diameter node that understands the
      realm overload status.&nbsp; <br>
      <br>
      I will admit that I see limited value of the RRRs because the
      ability to control realm wide overload with them is different per
      application and is complicated.<br>
      <br>
      The better way of controlling the traffic to the realm as a whole
      is to support a true realm overload report as proposed in ticket
      #55.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/26/14 4:03 AM, TROTTIN,
      JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D20266BAA2@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Dear all

About this thread, I am in line with Ulrich and Mcruz comments that realm OLRS are generated  by DOICs DAs dealing with realm, overload.
Regarding Lionel comment that a server, aware of the overload  of other servers, can generate a realm OLR, in fact in this case  the node supports the server functional entity  and a DA  functional entity addressing realm overload. This is common for implementations to do such integrations (eg in 3GPP) but it does not change the content of a functional entity 

Regarding Steve concern, I think (as Ben) this is a new requirement where server would like to drive the behavior of a client on the type of requests. My current understanding is that the server indicates an overload and then this is to the client (and to the DA acting on realm requests) to decide on what is throttled/rerouted and this is quite application dependent. Personally, I do not yet see the need for such a server requirement. 

So this is a new extension to investigate later (including the requiremnt or this extension)) and outside of our currents scope for the baseline draft.

Best regards

Jacques 

 

-----Message d'origine-----
De&nbsp;: DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Ben Campbell
Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: mardi 25 f&eacute;vrier 2014 20:23
&Agrave;&nbsp;: Steve Donovan
Cc&nbsp;: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>
Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type

On Feb 25, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Steve Donovan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Ben,

I'm asserting that there are valid use cases (3GPP PCC for one) for a server sending a RRR that only impacts realm routed requests being sent to that server.  This is different than a RRR that reports on all realm routed requests sent to any server in the realm.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Then that is something different than they way I expected RRR reports (and I assume others) expected them to be used, and I think it would give incorrect behavior for other use cases. (1)

For example, lets assume a client knows about (either through configuration or dynamic discovery) two next hop destinations (A and B)  that can handle the Foo realm for a given application. It, at least initially, has no idea if those destinations are agents or servers. If that client receives an RRR OLR from A, is it allowed (or even expected)  to shift load to B? My intent for the RRR report type, based on our early discussions of the mixed-state scenario, was no. But I think the way you describe it, the answer would be yes.

I think we are talking about two distinct use cases. One is reporting overload that impacts the entire pool of servers that handle a particular realm+application. Another is is to allow reporting of overload that is created due to some number-of-session constrained resource. I agree both use cases are interesting, and potentially needed. But I don't think a single report type, without further modification, can handle both use cases. 

I also think a single host could be session-constrained, and a pool of servers handling a realm could become session constrained. That suggests we need a way of saying "reduce (new) sessions" that can work for both host and RRR reports. That could be a separate algorithm, or some markup that says "please reduce sessions".  

(1) To some degree, I think we are suffering from our choice to use report-types to distinguish these sort of semantics, rather than the scope concept in the Roach draft. The fundamental difference is an OLR could combine multiple scopes (e.g. "new session for realm Foo at host A"  , but can only have one type. (e.g. "realm foo" or "host a".)

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
Steve


On 2/25/14 12:51 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">I think that both models are reasonable deployments. Our definitions of HRR and RRR should support both approaches. I say this with the caveat that, if a server sends an RRR report, it is claiming authoritative knowledge of all servers in the realm.

Agents sending reports to clients can take _any_ input they want to. That could be host reports from servers, RRR reports from servers, Diameter errors, transport errors, and any number of proprietary methods.

On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) 
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a>
 wrote:


</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">My understanding is that RRR reports are always aggregated reports. Agents generating an RRR report (for use on the DOIC association towards the reacting node) take as an input the host-type reports received on the DOIC associations with the servers.
 
Ulrich
 
From: ext Steve Donovan [
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>
]
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:12 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); Maria Cruz Bartolome; 
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload 
report type
 
How do agents learn about a set of servers ability to handle new sessions (host-less requests) if servers never sent realm-routed-request reports?

I agree that agents should sent to aggregated report but the servers need to send RRR reports so the agent can route around them and generate those aggregated reports.

Steve

On 2/25/14 1:50 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Hi,
I agree with MCruz.
 
Principle is that the server never sends OLRs with a report type of realm-routed-request (exept the case where the server knows (i.e.is configured) that there is no other server in that realm).
 
Only agents that are configured to take the role of a reporting node for a realm will insert OLRs with report type of realm-routed-requests into answer messages and the content should be the aggregation of percentages as received in host type OLRs from all the servers in the realm.
 
Ulrich
 
 
 
 
From: DiME [
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>
] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:31 PM
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>

Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload 
report type
 
Maria Cruz,

Thanks for the comments.  We obviously have a different understanding of the meaning of realm-routed-request report (new attempt at a name to try to make Ulrich happy :-) ).

My definition is that it is a report generated by the server when the server does not want to receive new sessions.  

Your definition appears to be that it is a report generated by an agent (or a server is there are no agents in the network?) to indicate that the network need to handle fewer new sessions.

I actually think both cases apply but I don't think that an agent can generate a realm-routed-request report without knowing the status of servers and their ability to handle new Diameter sessions.

Note that I'm discussing this in the context of session-based applications.  This could also be applied to pseudo session based applications and applications that always rely on realm routed requests.

Everyone, which definition applies?

Steve

On 2/24/14 12:51 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Steve,
 
See some comments below please.
/MCruz
 
-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>
] On Behalf Of dime issue tracker
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 17:20
To: 
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org">draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>

Cc: 
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>

Subject: [Dime] [dime] #57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload 
report type
 
#57: Handling of "Realm-Routed" Overload report type
 
 I'm assuming the name of the realm overload report in the -01 
version will  be changed to realm-routed.  This issue applies 
independent of the actual  name of the report.
 
 The current behavior assumed for the realm-routed report is that 
the  reacting node, generally the client, will reduce the percentage 
of realm  routed requests sent to the reporting node.
 
 This is actually bad behavior and could result in the client 
throttling  traffic that could have been handled by the full set of 
servers for that  Diameter application.
[MCruz] This can only happen if the agent has miscalculated the realm overload.
 
 Consider the case where there are n servers for a Diameter 
application and  all of those server are able to handle any 
transaction for that  application.
 
 When one of those servers becomes overloaded and wishes to decrease 
the  number of new sessions, the primary use of realm-routed 
requests.  The  server will generate an OLR of type realm-routed.
[MCruz] I do not agree. Servers do not generate Realm-routed reports.
 
 Assume in this case that the other servers are all healthy and able 
to  handle new sessions.
 
 Clients will not have the knowledge that there are other servers in 
the  network able to handle the new session and will have no choice 
but the  throttle a percentage of the new session requests.  Even 
when these  throttled requests could have been handled by any of the 
non overloaded  servers.
 
 The proposal is to specify that realm-routed reports must be 
handled by  DOIC-supporting agents.  Agents will understand if there 
are other servers  able to handle the new session and, if so, can 
adjust the percentage of  requests routed to the overloaded server.
 
 Agents that handle the realm-routed OLR must remove the request 
from the  answer before relaying the answer to client.  This 
prevents the report  from being acted on by either multiple agents 
(if multiple are in the
 path) or by an agent and a client.
 
 Clients that receive the realm-routed OLR must handle the OLR by  
throttling the requested percentage.
 
 
 

</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 13:01:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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Steve,

that is neither correct nor did we agree so.

No OLR means "no change", it does not mean "no overload".
When a reporting node is not in overload, it still is allowed to send OLRs =
(indicating no overload/ end of overload) just to make sure that the reacti=
ng node has up to date information (it needs not do so when it knows that t=
he reacting node already has sufficiently up to date information).

Ulrich

From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:35 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status

Ulrich,

An OLR is included in every answer message only when the reporting node is =
in an overload state.  There are no overload reports when the reacting node=
 is not overloaded.

Steve
On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Steve, Ben, all,



on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not require=
d for loss i.e. not required for  draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can  leave it up=
 to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to specify the requirem=
ent to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed (I still don't=
 see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs to be discusse=
d when discussing those drafts.



On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this requi=
rement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Anyway, =
given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messages (e=
xept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already knows)=
. Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the reporting n=
ode from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported by t=
he reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows wheth=
er or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).



Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell

Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM

To: Steve Donovan

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status





On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com><mailt=
o:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:



I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:



1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of overlo=
ad abatement the reporting node will ask for.



this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the react=
ing node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number of re=
quests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.



There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state abo=
ut traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we choose, leave it u=
p to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to specify the=
 requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.



2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features AV=
P in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload supported i=
n the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter network.=
  For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts to the kn=
owledge of whether servers support overload.  In the case that the server d=
oes support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the server, u=
p to the point that the server sends an OLR.  If the client determines that=
 the server does not support overload then it might have a configured maxim=
um rate that it will send to the server.



My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers becau=
se most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to better=
 implementation client implementations.



+1 on both points

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">that is ne=
ither correct nor did we agree so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">No OLR mea=
ns &#8220;no change&#8221;, it does not mean &#8220;no overload&#8221;.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When a rep=
orting node is not in overload, it still is allowed to send OLRs (indicatin=
g no overload/ end of overload) just to make sure that the
 reacting node has up to date information (it needs not do so when it knows=
 that the reacting node already has sufficiently up to date information).<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
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nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
<br>
An OLR is included in every answer message only when the reporting node is =
in an overload state.&nbsp; There are no overload reports when the reacting=
 node is not overloaded.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve, Ben, all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not re=
quired for loss i.e. not required for&nbsp; draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can&nb=
sp; leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to speci=
fy the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed=
 (I still don't see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs=
 to be discussed when discussing those drafts.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this =
requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Any=
way, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messag=
es (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already k=
nows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the report=
ing node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported=
 by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows =
whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan=
@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of o=
verload abatement the reporting node will ask for.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the =
reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number =
of requests.&nbsp; It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep stat=
e about traffic sent to specific destinations.&nbsp; We can, if we choose, =
leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to s=
pecify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulr=
ich.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Featur=
es AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload suppor=
ted in the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter net=
work.&nbsp; For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts=
 to the knowledge of whether servers support overload.&nbsp; In the case th=
at the server does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic t=
o the server, up to the point that the server sends an OLR.&nbsp; If the cl=
ient determines that the server does not support overload then it might hav=
e a configured maximum rate that it will send to the server.<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers =
because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to b=
etter implementation client implementations.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&#43;1 on both points<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From nobody Wed Feb 26 05:09:17 2014
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 07:08:58 -0600
From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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I agree that a server can send a continuing stream of OLRs with a
reduction percentage of zero.

I don't agree that the server MUST do so.

What is the point of sending the OLR for the 99% of the time when there
is no overload when absence of an OLR communicates exactly the same thing?

Steve

On 2/26/14 7:01 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> that is neither correct nor did we agree so.
>
>  
>
> No OLR means "no change", it does not mean "no overload".
>
> When a reporting node is not in overload, it still is allowed to send
> OLRs (indicating no overload/ end of overload) just to make sure that
> the reacting node has up to date information (it needs not do so when
> it knows that the reacting node already has sufficiently up to date
> information).
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
> *From:*ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:35 PM
> *To:* Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org list
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
>
>  
>
> Ulrich,
>
> An OLR is included in every answer message only when the reporting
> node is in an overload state.  There are no overload reports when the
> reacting node is not overloaded.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>     Steve, Ben, all,
>
>      
>
>     on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not required for loss i.e. not required for  draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can  leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed (I still don't see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs to be discussed when discussing those drafts.
>
>      
>
>     On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Anyway, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messages (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already knows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the reporting node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>
>     Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM
>
>     To: Steve Donovan
>
>     Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
>
>     Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>      
>
>         I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:
>
>          
>
>         1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.
>
>          
>
>         this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number of requests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.
>
>          
>
>         There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state about traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we choose, leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.
>
>          
>
>         2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload supported in the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter network.  For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts to the knowledge of whether servers support overload.  In the case that the server does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the server, up to the point that the server sends an OLR.  If the client determines that the server does not support overload then it might have a configured maximum rate that it will send to the server.
>
>          
>
>         My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to better implementation client implementations.
>
>      
>
>     +1 on both points
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     DiME mailing list
>
>     DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>      
>
>  
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I agree that a server can
      send a continuing stream of OLRs with a reduction percentage of
      zero.<br>
      <br>
      I don't agree that the server MUST do so.<br>
      <br>
      What is the point of sending the OLR for the 99% of the time when
      there is no overload when absence of an OLR communicates exactly
      the same thing?<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/26/14 7:01 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4A05@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">that is neither correct nor did we agree so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">No OLR means &#8220;no change&#8221;, it does not mean &#8220;no
            overload&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">When a reporting node is not in overload, it
            still is allowed to send OLRs (indicating no overload/ end
            of overload) just to make sure that the reacting node has up
            to date information (it needs not do so when it knows that
            the reacting node already has sufficiently up to date
            information).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> ext Steve Donovan
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:35 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben
                Campbell<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
          <br>
          An OLR is included in every answer message only when the
          reporting node is in an overload state.&nbsp; There are no overload
          reports when the reacting node is not overloaded.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
            DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>Steve, Ben, all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not required for loss i.e. not required for&nbsp; draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can&nbsp; leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed (I still don't see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs to be discussed when discussing those drafts.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Anyway, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messages (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already knows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the reporting node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>To: Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number of requests.&nbsp; It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state about traffic sent to specific destinations.&nbsp; We can, if we choose, leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload supported in the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter network.&nbsp; For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts to the knowledge of whether servers support overload.&nbsp; In the case that the server does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the server, up to the point that the server sends an OLR.&nbsp; If the client determines that the server does not support overload then it might have a configured maximum rate that it will send to the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to better implementation client implementations.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>+1 on both points<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#30 status
Thread-Index: Ac8tWQX7CYmMbh1xRs+Dq0AnmWwb3v//9tOA///eBNCACKHgAIAALzmA//25bzCABLwtgP//7WrwAAOBfgD//+2wIA==
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 13:27:48 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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I did not say that the server MUST do so.

For my clarification: what is the proposal for OC-Supported-Features in ans=
wer messages? Is it  a MUST in all answer messages that correspond to reque=
sts that indicated DOIC support? If so, why is it better
a) to always say "yes I support DOIC" rather than
b) to always say "current overload is xx"
where xx includes the possibility to say "no overload" and of course b) imp=
licitly indicates "yes I support DOIC"

Ulrich




From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:09 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status

I agree that a server can send a continuing stream of OLRs with a reduction=
 percentage of zero.

I don't agree that the server MUST do so.

What is the point of sending the OLR for the 99% of the time when there is =
no overload when absence of an OLR communicates exactly the same thing?

Steve
On 2/26/14 7:01 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
Steve,

that is neither correct nor did we agree so.

No OLR means "no change", it does not mean "no overload".
When a reporting node is not in overload, it still is allowed to send OLRs =
(indicating no overload/ end of overload) just to make sure that the reacti=
ng node has up to date information (it needs not do so when it knows that t=
he reacting node already has sufficiently up to date information).

Ulrich

From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:35 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell
Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status

Ulrich,

An OLR is included in every answer message only when the reporting node is =
in an overload state.  There are no overload reports when the reacting node=
 is not overloaded.

Steve
On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Steve, Ben, all,



on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not require=
d for loss i.e. not required for  draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can  leave it up=
 to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to specify the requirem=
ent to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed (I still don't=
 see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs to be discusse=
d when discussing those drafts.



On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this requi=
rement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Anyway, =
given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messages (e=
xept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already knows)=
. Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the reporting n=
ode from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported by t=
he reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows wheth=
er or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).



Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell

Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM

To: Steve Donovan

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org> list

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status





On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com><mailt=
o:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:



I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:



1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of overlo=
ad abatement the reporting node will ask for.



this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the react=
ing node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number of re=
quests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.



There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state abo=
ut traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we choose, leave it u=
p to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to specify the=
 requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.



2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features AV=
P in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload supported i=
n the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter network.=
  For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts to the kn=
owledge of whether servers support overload.  In the case that the server d=
oes support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the server, u=
p to the point that the server sends an OLR.  If the client determines that=
 the server does not support overload then it might have a configured maxim=
um rate that it will send to the server.



My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers becau=
se most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to better=
 implementation client implementations.



+1 on both points

_______________________________________________

DiME mailing list

DiME@ietf.org<mailto:DiME@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime





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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I did not =
say that the server MUST do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For my cla=
rification: what is the proposal for OC-Supported-Features in answer messag=
es? Is it&nbsp; a MUST in all answer messages that correspond to
 requests that indicated DOIC support? If so, why is it better<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">a) to alwa=
ys say &#8220;yes I support DOIC&#8221; rather than<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">b) to alwa=
ys say &#8220;current overload is xx&#8221; &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">where xx i=
ncludes the possibility to say &#8220;no overload&#8221; and of course b) i=
mplicitly indicates &#8220;yes I support DOIC&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Cc:</b> dime@ietf.org list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I agree that a server=
 can send a continuing stream of OLRs with a reduction percentage of zero.<=
br>
<br>
I don't agree that the server MUST do so.<br>
<br>
What is the point of sending the OLR for the 99% of the time when there is =
no overload when absence of an OLR communicates exactly the same thing?<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/26/14 7:01 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">that is ne=
ither correct nor did we agree so.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">No OLR mea=
ns &#8220;no change&#8221;, it does not mean &#8220;no overload&#8221;.</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When a rep=
orting node is not in overload, it still is allowed to send OLRs (indicatin=
g no overload/ end of overload) just to make sure that the
 reacting node has up to date information (it needs not do so when it knows=
 that the reacting node already has sufficiently up to date information).</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
<a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com=
</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
<br>
An OLR is included in every answer message only when the reporting node is =
in an overload state.&nbsp; There are no overload reports when the reacting=
 node is not overloaded.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Steve, Ben, all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not re=
quired for loss i.e. not required for&nbsp; draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can&nb=
sp; leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to speci=
fy the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed=
 (I still don't see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs=
 to be discussed when discussing those drafts.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this =
requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Any=
way, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messag=
es (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already k=
nows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the report=
ing node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported=
 by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows =
whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan=
@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of o=
verload abatement the reporting node will ask for.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the =
reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number =
of requests.&nbsp; It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep stat=
e about traffic sent to specific destinations.&nbsp; We can, if we choose, =
leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to s=
pecify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulr=
ich.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Featur=
es AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload suppor=
ted in the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter net=
work.&nbsp; For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts=
 to the knowledge of whether servers support overload.&nbsp; In the case th=
at the server does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic t=
o the server, up to the point that the server sends an OLR.&nbsp; If the cl=
ient determines that the server does not support overload then it might hav=
e a configured maximum rate that it will send to the server.<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers =
because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to b=
etter implementation client implementations.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&#43;1 on both points<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
Thread-Index: AQHPLKfaNBG2qkbh0kelPIaMQYlrnZq6+hlQgAmztBKAAvg4YA==
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:55:25 +0000
Message-ID: <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4A6E@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
References: <066.b54c2f5aeb31c9b3f88c96008120290d@trac.tools.ietf.org> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209773085@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <52FA3CC6.905020 5@usdonovans.com> <17910_1392132298_52FA40CA_17910_2863_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A28D@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <11546_1392132645_52FA4225_11546_3173_1_0aa80fb0-8382-459e-aebf-2ee5d5f70edc@PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026644D6@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <D2D4DD91-8F3D-4C24-9E3A-E2AE3918D468@gmail.com> <52FCBBF7.7000700@usdonovans.com> <D4BE67F7-6D7B-4DB2-8DF0-D430A8FC6582@nostrum.com> <5302351F.6050902@usdonovans.com> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026697DE@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209783450@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <53035690.1070702@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3A60@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <5303742C.50902@usdonovans.com> <6854BD31-1B9A-4F72-B987-E25B407EBD57@nostrum.com> <530B7D62.1080700@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Ben, Steve, all

I still think we can conclude on #34.

The issue here is independent and is valid for both realm-routed-request re=
ports and realm reports (should we ever agree on them, see #55).  I shall o=
pen a new ticket on Multiple Reporting Nodes reporting realm-routed-request=
 reports for the same realm.

Ulrich

From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 6:12 PM
To: Ben Campbell
Cc: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Ben,

One comment below.

Steve
On 2/20/14 5:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:



On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com><mailt=
o:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:



- Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting node.  =
It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection element to m=
ake sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.



I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be _sent_ by=
 reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for the realm's =
overload state. But there's no requirement that there be only one, just tha=
t if there are more than one they don't contradict each other.
SRD> The reason for this requirement is to handle the likelihood that each =
reporting node of the new realm report type will have independent sequence =
numbers.  Thus, as long as all reporting nodes report all updates to the re=
alm overload status, it should be sufficient for a reacting node to only li=
sten to one of the reporting nodes when determining if the OLR is new.








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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben, Steve, all<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I still th=
ink we can conclude on #34.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The issue =
here is independent and is valid for both realm-routed-request reports and =
realm reports (should we ever agree on them, see #55). &nbsp;I
 shall open a new ticket on Multiple Reporting Nodes reporting realm-routed=
-request reports for the same realm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> ext Steve Donovan [=
mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 6:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ben Campbell<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ben,<br>
<br>
One comment below.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/20/14 5:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan=
@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>- Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting no=
de.&nbsp; It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection el=
ement to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be _sen=
t_ by reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for the rea=
lm's overload state. But there's no requirement that there be only one, jus=
t that if there are more than one they don't contradict each other.<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SRD&gt; The reason for this requirement is to handle=
 the likelihood that each reporting node of the new realm report type will =
have independent sequence numbers.&nbsp; Thus, as long as all reporting nod=
es report all updates to the realm overload
 status, it should be sufficient for a reacting node to only listen to one =
of the reporting nodes when determining if the OLR is new.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From nobody Wed Feb 26 07:02:49 2014
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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 09:02:35 -0600
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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>,  Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
References: <066.b54c2f5aeb31c9b3f88c96008120290d@trac.tools.ietf.org> <17910_1392132298_52FA40CA_17910_2863_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49A28D@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <11546_1392132645_52FA4225_11546_3173_1_0aa80fb0-8382-459e-aebf-2ee5d5f70edc@PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026644D6@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <D2D4DD91-8F3D-4C24-9E3A-E2AE3918D468@gmail.com> <52FCBBF7.7000700@usdonovans.com> <D4BE67F7-6D7B-4DB2-8DF0-D430A8FC6582@nostrum.com> <5302351F.6050902@usdonovans.com> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026697DE@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209783450@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <53035690.1070702@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3A60@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <5303742C.50902@usdonovans.com> <6854BD31-1B9A-4F72-B987-E25B407EBD57@nostrum.com> <530B7D62.1080700@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4A6E@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Ulrich,

Sounds good, thanks,

Steve

On 2/26/14 8:55 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Ben, Steve, all
>
>  
>
> I still think we can conclude on #34.
>
>  
>
> The issue here is independent and is valid for both
> realm-routed-request reports and realm reports (should we ever agree
> on them, see #55).  I shall open a new ticket on Multiple Reporting
> Nodes reporting realm-routed-request reports for the same realm.
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
> *From:*ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2014 6:12 PM
> *To:* Ben Campbell
> *Cc:* Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
>
>  
>
> Ben,
>
> One comment below.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/20/14 5:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>
>      
>
>     On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>      
>
>         - Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting node.  It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection element to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.
>
>      
>
>     I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be _sent_ by reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for the realm's overload state. But there's no requirement that there be only one, just that if there are more than one they don't contradict each other.
>
> SRD> The reason for this requirement is to handle the likelihood that
> each reporting node of the new realm report type will have independent
> sequence numbers.  Thus, as long as all reporting nodes report all
> updates to the realm overload status, it should be sufficient for a
> reacting node to only listen to one of the reporting nodes when
> determining if the OLR is new.
>
>  
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Ulrich,<br>
      <br>
      Sounds good, thanks,<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/26/14 8:55 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4A6E@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ben,
            Steve, all<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I still think we can conclude on #34.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">The issue here is independent and is valid for
            both realm-routed-request reports and realm reports (should
            we ever agree on them, see #55). &nbsp;I shall open a new ticket
            on Multiple Reporting Nodes reporting realm-routed-request
            reports for the same realm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
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            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> ext Steve Donovan
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 24, 2014 6:12 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Ben Campbell<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich);
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of
                OC-Report-Type AVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ben,<br>
          <br>
          One comment below.<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/20/14 5:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>- Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting node.&nbsp; It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection element to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be _sent_ by reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for the realm's overload state. But there's no requirement that there be only one, just that if there are more than one they don't contradict each other.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal">SRD&gt; The reason for this requirement is
          to handle the likelihood that each reporting node of the new
          realm report type will have independent sequence numbers.&nbsp;
          Thus, as long as all reporting nodes report all updates to the
          realm overload status, it should be sufficient for a reacting
          node to only listen to one of the reporting nodes when
          determining if the OLR is new.<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
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From nobody Wed Feb 26 07:09:13 2014
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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We are going around in circles on this one. I don't agree for reasons I =
have stated before, but will state again for reference (see inline).

On Feb 26, 2014, at 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Steve, Ben, all,
>=20
> on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not =
required for loss i.e. not required for  draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can  =
leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to =
specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if =
so needed (I still don't see the need even for rate or other =
algorithms); that needs to be discussed when discussing those drafts.

I think it's best to keep it there for all algorithms. I'd like to be =
able to look for a single field and understand wether DOIC is supported, =
what algorithm is being used, as well as any parameters for that =
algorithm (even if none.) I don't want to have to look for the field, =
then if it's not there look other places.

>=20
> On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this =
requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). =
Anyway, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer =
messages (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node =
already knows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC =
by the reporting node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then =
DOIC is supported by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting =
node already knows whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting =
node).


We have a requirement to be able to operate effectively in a mixed =
environment. Working with nodes that do not support DOIC is going to =
require other strategies. Steve's example is a possible such strategy. =
Taking away the ability to quickly learn which peers support DOIC makes =
working effectively in a mixed environment harder.

I'm really surprised people are so opposed to including =
OC-Supported-Features in every answer. It's very easy and cheap to do =
it. Leaving it out makes implementations harder and more error prone. =
Leaving it out makes it hard or impossible to take proactive measures to =
work with other nodes that don't support DOIC. This should be an easy =
choice.

We've mentioned several advantages of requiring it in every answer. The =
only advantage I see for removing it is to save having to insert one =
more AVP. I don't find that convincing. Are there other reasons for =
leaving it out?=


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On Feb 26, 2014, at 7:27 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> I did not say that the server MUST do so.
> =20
> For my clarification: what is the proposal for OC-Supported-Features =
in answer messages? Is it  a MUST in all answer messages that correspond =
to requests that indicated DOIC support? If so, why is it better
> a) to always say =93yes I support DOIC=94 rather than
> b) to always say =93current overload is xx=94 =20
> where xx includes the possibility to say =93no overload=94 and of =
course b) implicitly indicates =93yes I support DOIC=94

Because B requires considerably more work for both sender and receiver, =
as well as more data overhead to essentially accomplish the same thing =
as A.


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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On Feb 26, 2014, at 7:01 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Steve,
> =20
> that is neither correct nor did we agree so.
> =20
> No OLR means =93no change=94, it does not mean =93no overload=94.
> When a reporting node is not in overload, it still is allowed to send =
OLRs (indicating no overload/ end of overload) just to make sure that =
the reacting node has up to date information (it needs not do so when it =
knows that the reacting node already has sufficiently up to date =
information).

I agree that this is technically true. But in the case where the =
reacting node has not been informed of an overload condition, or all =
such conditions have expired, "no chance" is the same as "no overload". =
And unless we choose to mandate an OLR in every answer (which would be =
much more costly than mandating OC-Supported-Features), we are back =
where we started.

> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:35 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
> =20
> Ulrich,
>=20
> An OLR is included in every answer message only when the reporting =
node is in an overload state.  There are no overload reports when the =
reacting node is not overloaded.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Steve, Ben, all,
> =20
> on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not =
required for loss i.e. not required for  draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can  =
leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to =
specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if =
so needed (I still don't see the need even for rate or other =
algorithms); that needs to be discussed when discussing those drafts.
> =20
> On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this =
requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). =
Anyway, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer =
messages (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node =
already knows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC =
by the reporting node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then =
DOIC is supported by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting =
node already knows whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting =
node).
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben =
Campbell
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM
> To: Steve Donovan
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
> =20
> =20
> On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
> =20
> I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:
> =20
> 1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of =
overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.
> =20
> this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the =
reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate =
number of requests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic =
sent.
> =20
> There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep =
state about traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we =
choose, leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement =
algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, =
as proposed by Ulrich.
> =20
> 2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the =
OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages to know that there is no =
Diameter overload supported in the network and thus take other measures =
to protect the Diameter network.  For example, I can envision a client =
implementation that adapts to the knowledge of whether servers support =
overload.  In the case that the server does support overload the client =
can send unlimited traffic to the server, up to the point that the =
server sends an OLR.  If the client determines that the server does not =
support overload then it might have a configured maximum rate that it =
will send to the server.
> =20
> My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers =
because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead =
to better implementation client implementations.
> =20
> +1 on both points
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> =20
> =20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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See inline.

Steve
On 2/26/14 7:27 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> I did not say that the server MUST do so.
>
SRD> I assumed a MUST if this was to be used as a way to communicate
support for DOIC. 
>
>  
>
> For my clarification: what is the proposal for OC-Supported-Features
> in answer messages? Is it  a MUST in all answer messages that
> correspond to requests that indicated DOIC support? If so, why is it
> better
>
> a) to always say "yes I support DOIC" rather than
>
> b) to always say "current overload is xx"  
>
> where xx includes the possibility to say "no overload" and of course
> b) implicitly indicates "yes I support DOIC"
>
SRD> One is capability advertisement the other is overload reporting. 
We should not mix the semantics of the two.

SRD> We don't have consensus yet, but if we agree on the need for
reacting nodes to know whether there is support for DOIC in the Diameter
network then I think the requirement would be similar to how we are
handling overload reports.  The reporting node MUST ensure that all
reacting nodes receive the OC-Supported-Features AVP.  This can be done
by including the AVP in all answer messages or it can be done by
remembering to whom the AVP has been sent.
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:09 PM
> *To:* Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell
> *Cc:* dime@ietf.org list
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
>
>  
>
> I agree that a server can send a continuing stream of OLRs with a
> reduction percentage of zero.
>
> I don't agree that the server MUST do so.
>
> What is the point of sending the OLR for the 99% of the time when
> there is no overload when absence of an OLR communicates exactly the
> same thing?
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/26/14 7:01 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>     Steve,
>
>      
>
>     that is neither correct nor did we agree so.
>
>      
>
>     No OLR means "no change", it does not mean "no overload".
>
>     When a reporting node is not in overload, it still is allowed to
>     send OLRs (indicating no overload/ end of overload) just to make
>     sure that the reacting node has up to date information (it needs
>     not do so when it knows that the reacting node already has
>     sufficiently up to date information).
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich
>
>      
>
>     *From:*ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:35 PM
>     *To:* Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben Campbell
>     *Cc:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
>
>      
>
>     Ulrich,
>
>     An OLR is included in every answer message only when the reporting
>     node is in an overload state.  There are no overload reports when
>     the reacting node is not overloaded.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>         Steve, Ben, all,
>
>          
>
>         on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not required for loss i.e. not required for  draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can  leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed (I still don't see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs to be discussed when discussing those drafts.
>
>          
>
>         On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Anyway, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messages (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already knows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the reporting node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).
>
>          
>
>         Ulrich
>
>          
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>
>         Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM
>
>         To: Steve Donovan
>
>         Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> list
>
>         Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
>
>          
>
>             I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:
>
>              
>
>             1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.
>
>              
>
>             this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number of requests.  It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.
>
>              
>
>             There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state about traffic sent to specific destinations.  We can, if we choose, leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.
>
>              
>
>             2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload supported in the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter network.  For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts to the knowledge of whether servers support overload.  In the case that the server does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the server, up to the point that the server sends an OLR.  If the client determines that the server does not support overload then it might have a configured maximum rate that it will send to the server.
>
>              
>
>             My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to better implementation client implementations.
>
>          
>
>         +1 on both points
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         DiME mailing list
>
>         DiME@ietf.org <mailto:DiME@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
>          
>
>      
>
>  
>


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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">See inline.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/26/14 7:27 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I did not say that the server MUST do so.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; I assumed a MUST if this was to be used as a way to
    communicate support for DOIC.&nbsp; <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4A31@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">For my clarification: what is the proposal for
            OC-Supported-Features in answer messages? Is it&nbsp; a MUST in
            all answer messages that correspond to requests that
            indicated DOIC support? If so, why is it better</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4A31@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">a) to always say &#8220;yes I support DOIC&#8221; rather
            than<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">b) to always say &#8220;current overload is xx&#8221; &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">where xx includes the possibility to say &#8220;no
            overload&#8221; and of course b) implicitly indicates &#8220;yes I
            support DOIC&#8221;</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; One is capability advertisement the other is overload
    reporting.&nbsp; We should not mix the semantics of the two.<br>
    <br>
    SRD&gt; We don't have consensus yet, but if we agree on the need for
    reacting nodes to know whether there is support for DOIC in the
    Diameter network then I think the requirement would be similar to
    how we are handling overload reports.&nbsp; The reporting node MUST
    ensure that all reacting nodes receive the OC-Supported-Features
    AVP.&nbsp; This can be done by including the AVP in all answer messages
    or it can be done by remembering to whom the AVP has been sent.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4A31@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> ext Steve Donovan
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:09 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben
                Campbell<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I agree that a
          server can send a continuing stream of OLRs with a reduction
          percentage of zero.<br>
          <br>
          I don't agree that the server MUST do so.<br>
          <br>
          What is the point of sending the OLR for the 99% of the time
          when there is no overload when absence of an OLR communicates
          exactly the same thing?<br>
          <br>
          Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/26/14 7:01 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -
            DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">that is neither correct nor did we agree so.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">No OLR means &#8220;no change&#8221;, it does not mean
              &#8220;no overload&#8221;.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">When a reporting node is not in overload, it
              still is allowed to send OLRs (indicating no overload/ end
              of overload) just to make sure that the reacting node has
              up to date information (it needs not do so when it knows
              that the reacting node already has sufficiently up to date
              information).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US"> ext Steve Donovan [<a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:35 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); ext Ben
                  Campbell<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Ulrich,<br>
            <br>
            An OLR is included in every answer message only when the
            reporting node is in an overload state.&nbsp; There are no
            overload reports when the reacting node is not overloaded.<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 2/26/14 3:23 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
              - DE/Munich) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Steve, Ben, all,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>on 1) we seem to agree that OC-Supported-Features in answers is not required for loss i.e. not required for&nbsp; draft-ietf-dime-ovli. We can&nbsp; leave it up to drafts associated with new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features in answers if so needed (I still don't see the need even for rate or other algorithms); that needs to be discussed when discussing those drafts.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>On 2) I understand the usecase, but I'm not sure whether we have this requirement of selective proactive throttling (see e-mail from Lionel). Anyway, given the conclusion on #31, OLR will be included in all answer messages (exept when the reporting node is aware that the reacting node already knows). Therefore the reacting node can deduce support of DOIC by the reporting node from the presence of OLR (if OLR is present then DOIC is supported by the reporting node; if OLR is absent, then reacting node already knows whether or not DOIC is supported by the reporting node).<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Ulrich<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:02 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> list<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Steve Donovan <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">&lt;srdonovan@usdonovans.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>I can see two additional reasons for requiring OC-Supported-Features:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>1) If the reacting node needs to know in advance whether the type of overload abatement the reporting node will ask for.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>this is not needed in the case of the loss abatement algorithm as the reacting node can just immediately start throttling the appropriate number of requests.&nbsp; It does not require prior knowledge of the traffic sent.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>There are abatement algorithms that do require the client to keep state about traffic sent to specific destinations.&nbsp; We can, if we choose, leave it up to the drafts associated with the new abatement algorithms to specify the requirement to include OC-Supported-Features, as proposed by Ulrich.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>2) If the reacting node can use the absence of the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answer messages to know that there is no Diameter overload supported in the network and thus take other measures to protect the Diameter network.&nbsp; For example, I can envision a client implementation that adapts to the knowledge of whether servers support overload.&nbsp; In the case that the server does support overload the client can send unlimited traffic to the server, up to the point that the server sends an OLR.&nbsp; If the client determines that the server does not support overload then it might have a configured maximum rate that it will send to the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>My inclination is to include the OC-Supported-Features AVP in answers because most abatement algorithms will need it and because it can lead to better implementation client implementations.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>+1 on both points<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Given the further discussion, what is the currently proposed conclusion?

On Feb 26, 2014, at 8:55 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Ben, Steve, all
> =20
> I still think we can conclude on #34.
> =20
> The issue here is independent and is valid for both =
realm-routed-request reports and realm reports (should we ever agree on =
them, see #55).  I shall open a new ticket on Multiple Reporting Nodes =
reporting realm-routed-request reports for the same realm.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 6:12 PM
> To: Ben Campbell
> Cc: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> Ben,
>=20
> One comment below.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/20/14 5:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> =20
> On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
> =20
> - Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting =
node.  It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection =
element to make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.
> =20
> I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be =
_sent_ by reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for =
the realm's overload state. But there's no requirement that there be =
only one, just that if there are more than one they don't contradict =
each other.
> SRD> The reason for this requirement is to handle the likelihood that =
each reporting node of the new realm report type will have independent =
sequence numbers.  Thus, as long as all reporting nodes report all =
updates to the realm overload status, it should be sufficient for a =
reacting node to only listen to one of the reporting nodes when =
determining if the OLR is new.
>=20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20


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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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On Feb 26, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> SRD> We don't have consensus yet, but if we agree on the need for =
reacting nodes to know whether there is support for DOIC in the Diameter =
network then I think the requirement would be similar to how we are =
handling overload reports.  The reporting node MUST ensure that all =
reacting nodes receive the OC-Supported-Features AVP.  This can be done =
by including the AVP in all answer messages or it can be done by =
remembering to whom the AVP has been sent.

Given the trivial nature of sending and reading OC-Supported-Features, I =
think we should put it in every answer. This mirrors the way we handle =
it in requests.


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
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#34 	Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP	Resolved	Agreed - Replace text in sect=
ion 4.6 with text proposed in the ticket.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 4:15 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP

Given the further discussion, what is the currently proposed conclusion?

On Feb 26, 2014, at 8:55 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com> wrote:

> Ben, Steve, all
> =20
> I still think we can conclude on #34.
> =20
> The issue here is independent and is valid for both realm-routed-request =
reports and realm reports (should we ever agree on them, see #55).  I shall=
 open a new ticket on Multiple Reporting Nodes reporting realm-routed-reque=
st reports for the same realm.
> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> From: ext Steve Donovan [mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 6:12 PM
> To: Ben Campbell
> Cc: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #34: Semantics of OC-Report-Type AVP
> =20
> Ben,
>=20
> One comment below.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/20/14 5:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> =20
> On Feb 18, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wro=
te:
> =20
> - Reacting nodes should listen to only one realm overload reporting node.=
  It is up to the implementation of the realm overload detection element to=
 make sure that all reporting nodes have the same state.
> =20
> I think this should be restated that realm reports should only be _sent_ =
by reporting nodes that have full knowledge of and authority for the realm'=
s overload state. But there's no requirement that there be only one, just t=
hat if there are more than one they don't contradict each other.
> SRD> The reason for this requirement is to handle the likelihood that eac=
h reporting node of the new realm report type will have independent sequenc=
e numbers.  Thus, as long as all reporting nodes report all updates to the =
realm overload status, it should be sufficient for a reacting node to only =
listen to one of the reporting nodes when determining if the OLR is new.
>=20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20


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Subject: [Dime] [dime] #58 (draft-docdt-dime-ovli): Multiple Reporting Nodes for realm-routed-request type reports
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#58: Multiple Reporting Nodes for realm-routed-request type reports

 In deployments where more than one node is configured to take the role of
 a reporting node for realm-routed-request reports, reacting nodes may
 receive
 in different answer messages different realm-routed-request type OLRs
 inserted by the different reporting nodes. Although it is expected that
 the different reporting nodes report more or less the same content, it
 cannot be expected that reports are 100% synchronized. Especially sequence
 numbers may differ.
 To allow reacting nodes correctly detect outdates/replays/freshness of
 OLRs in this scenario, it is proposed that realm-routed-request type OLRs
 are extended to contain the Diameter Identity of the reporting node that
 inserted the realm-routed-request type OLR. (e.g. as already proposed in
 draft-donovan-dime-agent-overload-01).
 Reporting nodes that insert realm-routed-request type OLRs to answer
 messages MUST also insert their Diameter Identity.
 Reacting nodes MUST take the Diameter Identity received within the OLR
 into account in order to detect outdates/replays/freshness.

-- 
-----------------------------------+--------------------------
 Reporter:  ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com   |      Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                 |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                  |  Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli  |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document     |   Keywords:
-----------------------------------+--------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/58>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/9puqsfQO8decNKrKjs3_iaDlML8
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Dear Ulrich,

Being:

(0)    OLR per client

(1)    OLR for all clients

Some comments on the interactions you mentioned:

1.      A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid

2.      A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the s=
ame client invalid

3.      A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid

I do not think 3) is right. Why an OLR per one specific client shall invali=
date OLRs for rest of clients? This will imply that rest of clients will no=
t have any overload mitigation on until they receive a new value of (1), or=
 (0) for each of them.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 12:23
To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi JJacques,

thank you for the summary.

I think it does not matter whether we call

A)      "OLR per client" the base solution and "OLR for all clients" the op=
timization or

B)     "OLR for all clients" the base solution and "OLR per client" the (3G=
PP) extension
as long as we cover both.

I don't think there are impacts on sequence number handling, report types o=
r DOIC associations.

My proposal then is to add a new mandatory AVP of type enumerated to OC-OLR=
 with values

(0)    OLR per client

(1)    OLR for all clients

Reporting nodes that better like A) could allways send (0) unless they supp=
ort the "optimization" and want to use it;
Reporting nodes that better like B) could allways send (1) unless they supp=
ort the "(3GPP) extension" and want to use it.
Clients can safely ignore the new AVP.
Agents taking the role of the reacting node on behalf of a client must do t=
he binding when receiving (0).

We also need to say something on interactions e.g.:
A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid
A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same clie=
nt invalid
A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid

(i.e. change of type is allowed, mixture is not allowed)

Ulrich


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Steve, MCruz and all

On my side,  I agree with Lionel.

I  have not the  same reading of the draft where I have  not found the Stev=
e's default case.
I agree with Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC association relates to this DOI=
C association  and the OLR can be different  for another DOIC association. =
The basic (or "default") principle is that each DOIC association has its "o=
wn life".

Then,  a server (local policy) can decide  to send  the same OLR to all its=
 clients (so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define  particular =
OLR values for   certain clients.
Another  interest  is that  when the server wants to update the OLR values =
towards  clients, it is  not obliged to send the new values  simultaneously=
  to all the clients : it may  (local server policy) progressively  change =
 the  value  over a certain duration  to minimize  sharp transitions.

So for DOIC supporting clients, the current text allows these possibilities=
, and in particular it satisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.

A second step is to address DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over time,  we=
 may expect that clients will be more and more DOIC supporting; so, this is=
 the main target. DAs with non DOIC client would be more for   a transition=
 (to be considered  nevertheless and which may be long).

The current text says that DA is acting on behalf of "A" client; so princip=
le  with host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there is no differ=
ence for the server, as this does not make a difference  between a DOIC sup=
porting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.
Nevertheless, and here I come to Steve's point,   this has a cost implying =
the DA to manage OLRs per client. Steve  introduces an optimization where i=
n fact a set of clients are considered for me as a pool regarding  DOIC whe=
re only one OLR applies and where throttling  applies  to the requests of t=
his  pool of clients.  I am not against to optimization process   but this =
pool concept is new and needs some further study. First about the concept o=
f DOIC association which evolves , as now linked to a pool .

There was a MCruz remark about sequence number, a new AVP or a  new report =
type.  I see that  we may have to review  the processing of the seq number =
 handling as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so   a "collate=
ral " effect of the optimization. I would also think that, instead of intro=
ducing a single node indication in the OLR (AVP or report type) , it should=
 be a global indication as the optimization   is to support a global DOIC a=
ssociation.  To also see if there are not other collateral effects to analy=
ze.

Ulrich  also mentioned that for realm OLRs we may also have  a different re=
alm  OLR sent to different clients, so this is the same principle as Lionel=
  for  a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.

The current text due to the DOIC association principle,  allows this realm =
OLR per DOIC association for both  DOIC  supporting clients and  DAs acting=
 on behalf of A client. Then I expect Steve  to do the same remark, with th=
e same reason  to have  an optimization  where all clients receives  the  s=
ame realm OLR, but to also see the collateral effects.

As a conclusion, I think we should remain with the current text as the base=
line, following the DOIC association principle that Lionel mentions, and af=
ter more investigation to assess the  optimization  for host and realm OLRs=
 with DA supporting non DOIC,  this optimization being optional.

Best regards

JJacques

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 10:09
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Yes, I agree with Steve.

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24
To: lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; dime@ietf.or=
g<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Lionel,

The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.

I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.  If this is the case then t=
here is little benefit (and significant overhead) to requiring an agent to =
maintain state per non-supporting client.

I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.  If this is the cas=
e then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the origi=
n-host in the request and only then should agents be required to maintain s=
tate for the non-supporting client.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
I really don't understand but it is not the first time :)

What about the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent maint=
aining overload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?
So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavio=
r that was implicit if you consider the comments above.

For me, the option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a spec=
ific client. So over two different DOIC association with the same server/re=
porting node, you can have two different OLRs.
But it does not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Maria Cruz,

To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.  To this end, it would be better to have this as part of the ba=
se specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want the =
same behavior.

Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes respond to per Origin-Hos=
t reports should be specified in a common way.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello again,

I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned=
 in related thread #56.

This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload miti=
gation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:

TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent implementatio=
ns to decide when and whether overload mitigation differentiation per clien=
t is used".



Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be =
considered by 3GPP applications when required.



Best regards

/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve, all,

I agree with Steve.

However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing =
(if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is replaced by new ho=
st OLR (per client).
Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new =
sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the =
contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OL=
R type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.

Let me know your opinions.
Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.

It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default behavior then it =
would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report =
to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this new feature =
is to allow a server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reactin=
g node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.

In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.

My proposal is the following:

- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.

- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).

- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:
  - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not act on=
 the OLR.
  - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must apply =
the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.   This implies t=
hat when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate whic=
h non supporting client originated the request.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.

Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this wording indep=
endent of the resolution of this issue.

Steve
On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

Is it implicit?



If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.



Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.



Regards,



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello Ulrich,



I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.



I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.



I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.



Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi MCruz,

there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.



If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.



Best regards

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello JJ and all,



As per email thread, the latest proposal is:

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."



An Ulrich comments on this:

"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."



Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?

Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi Mcruz and all



I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.

Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .



For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.



Best regards



Jacques







-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome=
 Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@i=
etf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello all,



Not sure we all have the same understanding here.

Let me try to explain my concerns.



The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.

Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:



a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.

Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.

But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.

Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."

But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.

How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:

- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1

- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).

- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?

In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.



b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.

With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.



Let me know your opinions please

Best regards

/MCruz







-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28

To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Steve,



please see inline.



Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Ulrich,



I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.



First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>





We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>



My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.

<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>

To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "s=
ingle-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  =
Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>



Steve

On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Being:<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">(0)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OLR per client<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">(1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OLR for all clien=
ts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Some comments on the inte=
ractions you mentioned:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo5"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OLR of ty=
pe (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo5"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OLR of ty=
pe (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same client invalid<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo5"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OLR of ty=
pe (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I do not think 3) is righ=
t. Why an OLR per one specific client shall invalidate OLRs for rest of cli=
ents? This will imply that rest of clients will not have
 any overload mitigation on until they receive a new value of (1), or (0) f=
or each of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 12:23<br>
<b>To:</b> ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi JJacques,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">thank you for the summary=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think it does not matte=
r whether we call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">A)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&#8220;OLR =
per client&#8221; the base solution and &#8220;OLR for all clients&#8221; t=
he optimization or<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">B)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8220;OLR for al=
l clients&#8221; the base solution and &#8220;OLR per client&#8221; the (3G=
PP) extension<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">as long as we cover both.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I don&#8217;t think there=
 are impacts on sequence number handling, report types or DOIC associations=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My proposal then is to ad=
d a new mandatory AVP of type enumerated to OC-OLR with values<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 leve=
l1 lfo6"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">(0)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OLR per client<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 leve=
l1 lfo6"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">(1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OLR for all clien=
ts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Reporting nodes that bett=
er like A) could allways send (0) unless they support the &#8220;optimizati=
on&#8221; and want to use it;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Reporting nodes that bett=
er like B) could allways send (1) unless they support the &#8220;(3GPP) ext=
ension&#8221; and want to use it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Clients can safely ignore=
 the new AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Agents taking the role of=
 the reacting node on behalf of a client must do the binding when receiving=
 (0).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We also need to say somet=
hing on interactions e.g.:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OLR of type (1) m=
akes all old OLRs of any type invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OLR of type (0) m=
akes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same client invalid<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OLR of type (0) m=
akes an old OLR of type (1) invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(i.e. change of type is a=
llowed, mixture is not allowed)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve, MCruz and all<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On my side, &nbsp;I agree=
 with Lionel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I &nbsp;have not the &nbs=
p;same reading of the draft where I have &nbsp;not found the Steve&#8217;s =
default case.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree with Lionel that =
the OLR for a DOIC association relates to this DOIC association &nbsp;and t=
he OLR can be different &nbsp;for another DOIC association. The basic
 (or &#8220;default&#8221;) principle is that each DOIC association has its=
 &#8220;own life&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, &nbsp;a server (loc=
al policy) can decide &nbsp;to send &nbsp;the same OLR to all its clients (=
so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define &nbsp;particular OLR v=
alues
 for &nbsp;&nbsp;certain clients. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Another &nbsp;interest &n=
bsp;is that &nbsp;when the server wants to update the OLR values towards &n=
bsp;clients, it is &nbsp;not obliged to send the new values &nbsp;simultane=
ously &nbsp;to all
 the clients : it may &nbsp;(local server policy) progressively &nbsp;chang=
e &nbsp;the &nbsp;value &nbsp;over a certain duration &nbsp;to minimize &nb=
sp;sharp transitions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for DOIC supporting cl=
ients, the current text allows these possibilities, and in particular it sa=
tisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A second step is to addre=
ss DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over time, &nbsp;we may expect that cli=
ents will be more and more DOIC supporting; so, this is the main
 target. DAs with non DOIC client would be more for &nbsp;&nbsp;a transitio=
n (to be considered &nbsp;nevertheless and which may be long).<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The current text says tha=
t DA is acting on behalf of &#8220;A&#8221; client; so principle &nbsp;with=
 host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there is no difference for
 the server, as this does not make a difference &nbsp;between a DOIC suppor=
ting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Nevertheless, and here I =
come to Steve&#8217;s point, &nbsp;&nbsp;this has a cost implying the DA to=
 manage OLRs per client. Steve &nbsp;introduces an optimization where in fa=
ct
 a set of clients are considered for me as a pool regarding &nbsp;DOIC wher=
e only one OLR applies and where throttling &nbsp;applies &nbsp;to the requ=
ests of this &nbsp;pool of clients. &nbsp;I am not against to optimization =
process &nbsp;&nbsp;but this pool concept is new and needs some further
 study. First about the concept of DOIC association which evolves , as now =
linked to a pool .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There was a MCruz remark =
about sequence number, a new AVP or a &nbsp;new report type. &nbsp;I see th=
at &nbsp;we may have to review &nbsp;the processing of the seq number &nbsp=
;handling
 as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so &nbsp;&nbsp;a &#8220;=
collateral &#8220; effect of the optimization. I would also think that, ins=
tead of introducing a single node indication in the OLR (AVP or report type=
) , it should be a global indication as the optimization
 &nbsp;&nbsp;is to support a global DOIC association. &nbsp;To also see if =
there are not other collateral effects to analyze.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich &nbsp;also mention=
ed that for realm OLRs we may also have &nbsp;a different realm &nbsp;OLR s=
ent to different clients, so this is the same principle as Lionel &nbsp;for
 &nbsp;a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The current text due to t=
he DOIC association principle, &nbsp;allows this realm OLR per DOIC associa=
tion for both &nbsp;DOIC&nbsp; supporting clients and &nbsp;DAs acting on b=
ehalf
 of A client. Then I expect Steve &nbsp;to do the same remark, with the sam=
e reason &nbsp;to have &nbsp;an optimization &nbsp;where all clients receiv=
es &nbsp;the &nbsp;same realm OLR, but to also see the collateral effects.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As a conclusion, I think =
we should remain with the current text as the baseline, following the DOIC =
association principle that Lionel mentions, and after more
 investigation to assess the &nbsp;optimization&nbsp; for host and realm OL=
Rs with DA supporting non DOIC, &nbsp;this optimization being optional.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 10:09<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Yes, I agree with Steve.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange=
.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Lionel,<br>
<br>
The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.&nbsp; If this is the case t=
hen there is little benefit (and significant
 overhead) to requiring an agent to maintain state per non-supporting clien=
t.<br>
<br>
I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.&nbsp; If this is th=
e case then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the =
origin-host in the request and only then
 should agents be required to maintain state for the non-supporting client.=
<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I really don't understand=
 but it is not the first time
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"=
>J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What about the DOIC assoc=
iation? What about my assumption about agent maintaining overload control s=
tate for non-DOIC enabled client?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for me, the proposal f=
rom Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavior that was implicit if yo=
u consider the comments above.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For me, the option for th=
e server is only to send a specific OLR for a specific client. So over two =
different DOIC association with the same server/reporting
 node, you can have two different OLRs.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But it does not change th=
e way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org=
">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.&nbsp; To this end, it would be better to have this as part of t=
he base specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want=
 the same behavior.<br>
<br>
Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How reacting nodes respond to per Origi=
n-Host reports should be specified in a common way.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">Hello=
 again,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">I for=
got to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned in r=
elated thread #56.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060">This =
is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload mitigatio=
n differentiation per client. But this is a server option:</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states &quot;It=
 may be up to the server/agent implementations to decide when and whether o=
verload mitigation differentiation per client is used&quot;.</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Therefore, we can even consider this=
 new OLR out of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP applications when=
 required.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve, all,</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
I agree with Steve.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I would like to =
share one concern. We need to avoid that existing (if any) host OLR (&#8220=
;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by new host OLR
 (per client).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host OLR (per client) wit=
h the new AVP requires that the server uses a new sequence number, but exis=
ting host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the contrary
 both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to achieve this,=
 it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (host per client),=
 instead of a new AVP.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let me know your opinions=
.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Adding an AVP to indi=
cate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in the request is not ju=
st an optimization for agents.<br>
<br>
It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior the=
n it would be best to have the default,
 implicit, meaning of an overload report to be &quot;applies to all reactin=
g nodes&quot;.&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow a serve=
r to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting node when then gl=
obal reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
<br>
In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.<br>
<br>
My proposal is the following:<br>
<br>
- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.<br>
<br>
- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
<br>
- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not a=
ct on the OLR.<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must a=
pply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients. &nbsp; This=
 implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differen=
tiate which non supporting client originated
 the request.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.<br>
<br>
Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need something like this wording =
independent of the resolution of this issue.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@=
orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
s it implicit? </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will h=
ave to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cli=
ent and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm =
assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host o=
f this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of =
this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">E=
ven if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alway=
s put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cli=
ents.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">R=
egards,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">L=
ionel</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Message d'origine-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
e&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">E=
nvoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
bjet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ello Ulrich,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify =
if this is what JJ got in mind.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open=
 question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for =
one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR t=
o one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any =
client. </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">/=
MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.co=
m">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
i MCruz,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
here is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting n=
ode for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from=
 servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduct=
ion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2);=
 A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 request=
ing 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reducti=
on of traffic from C2 to R.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ello JJ and all,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
s per email thread, the latest proposal is:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot; </span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
n Ulrich comments on this:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
quot;This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of th=
e reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also=
 the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node=
 (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role =
of a reacting node towards the server.&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
s your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? </span><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">/=
MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)</span><o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
i Mcruz and all</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the &quot;repor=
ting&quot; node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for whi=
ch will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it ca=
n reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, =
clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ere I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavior whe=
n&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received f=
or one client for other clients&nbsp; .</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
or me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may =
always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the b=
aseline.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">J=
acques </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Message d'origine-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
e&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 =
f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.=
org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ello all,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">N=
ot sure we all have the same understanding here.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">L=
et me try to explain my concerns.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
he original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to r=
educe traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by &quot;Ori=
gin-Host&quot; in the request.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hen, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the ser=
ver answer shall be marked:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OL=
R) is the client that sends the request, identified by &quot;Origin-Host&qu=
ot; in the request.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hen, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D&quot;Origin-Host&quot;, the expecte=
d reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
ut, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, the=
n the &quot;Origin-Host&quot; identifies final client, but not the reacting=
 node.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hen, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent=
 behavior (possible clause 5.5):</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bi=
nd a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the reque=
st which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;</span><o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
ut this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one =
specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.</span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">H=
ow will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm=
? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 &#43; S2) via Agent1. Let's consider f=
ollowing example:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
 C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1</span><o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
 S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
 Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR=
 only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for =
requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate a=
ggregated Realm overload?</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
n my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only =
meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, =
as in b) below.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">b=
) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client (&quot;Orig=
in-Host&quot; in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
ith this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shal=
l be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP=
.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">L=
et me know your opinions please</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
est regards</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">/=
MCruz</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: ext Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></s=
pan><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
teve,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">p=
lease see inline.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp;=
 </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
irst, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting ag=
ents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This, =
I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; I=
 suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing=
 wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the reque=
st must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Subseque=
nt DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-support=
ing client.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
e need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being t=
he reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily =
happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transacti=
on.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algori=
thm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.</span><o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g=
. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">M=
y other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for=
 the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload =
reports.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports th=
at are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of th=
e &quot;single-client-only&quot; AVP would mean that the report applies to =
all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies =
to the Origin-Host.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. =
Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are=
 client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not wan=
t to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the=
 client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
teve</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
n 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:</span><o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">B=
en,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
he proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, =
Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">N=
ow you seem to address two points:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.</span><o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for=
 5.5. as follows:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
hen an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a r=
eceived OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request whi=
ch corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
his would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reac=
ting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the c=
ase where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for =
realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a r=
eacting node towards the server.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">b=
) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disa=
gree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of =
reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:</span><o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">1=
. ignore the 3GPP requirement</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">2=
. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the=
 binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
o far I understood that people favoured option 3.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ee also inline.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">U=
lrich</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">-=
----Original Message-----</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">F=
rom: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostru=
m.com</a>]</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
o: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">C=
c: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
n Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a href=3D"mail=
to:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:</span><o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">#=
35: additional report types are proposed</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
ear all,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we a=
greed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:</span><o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">W=
hen an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client=
 not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the orig=
in-host of the client.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
 do not agree.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Y=
ou proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If there'=
s an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reactin=
g node from the server's perspective.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not kno=
w whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of th=
e reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-host ty=
pe, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC suppor=
t at the clients.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at th=
e client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"> =
Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-=
supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic=
 by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from t=
he perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't have t=
hat option for non-DOIC clients.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">C=
e message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confident=
ielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">p=
as etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu =
ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
 l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages ele=
ctroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
range decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou f=
alsifie. Merci.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
his message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged info=
rmation that may be protected by law;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
hey should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span>=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delet=
e this message and its attachments.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
s emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been m=
odified, changed or falsified.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hank you.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">D=
iME mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">_=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">C=
e message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confident=
ielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">p=
as etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu =
ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">a=
 l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages ele=
ctroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">O=
range decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou f=
alsifie. Merci.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
his message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged info=
rmation that may be protected by law;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">t=
hey should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span>=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I=
f you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delet=
e this message and its attachments.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A=
s emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been m=
odified, changed or falsified.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">T=
hank you.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
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From: "Askerup, Anders" <anders.askerup@hp.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#30 status
Thread-Index: AQHPMwYOwHyLYIFFpUiNcO4nB3MBYJrJVwvg
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:14:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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I also agree that including OC-Supported-Features in every answer is prefer=
able. In addition to mirroring Requests, it is in-line with how Supported-F=
eatures are managed in at least some 3GPP interfaces as well.

/Anders

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:19 AM
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status


On Feb 26, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> SRD> We don't have consensus yet, but if we agree on the need for reactin=
g nodes to know whether there is support for DOIC in the Diameter network t=
hen I think the requirement would be similar to how we are handling overloa=
d reports.  The reporting node MUST ensure that all reacting nodes receive =
the OC-Supported-Features AVP.  This can be done by including the AVP in al=
l answer messages or it can be done by remembering to whom the AVP has been=
 sent.

Given the trivial nature of sending and reading OC-Supported-Features, I th=
ink we should put it in every answer. This mirrors the way we handle it in =
requests.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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References: <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B3F63@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <53077659.1030909@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B43B7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784859@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D20266A8C1@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920978489B@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4441@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784904@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <6255_1393250808_530B51F7_6255_2234_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4BB90C@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <530B6B9D.6010601@usdonovans.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784B4E@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784B72@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <530B9469.4070403@usdonovans.com> <16141_1393268235_530B960B_16141_14014_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4BC596@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <530B9C5E.90800@usdonovans.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209784EA0@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D20266B9E6@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4999@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B9209787161@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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Dear MCruz,

certainly a valid point. I don't have a strong view but I wanted to avoid t=
he mixture to keep things simple.
Maybe we should forbid the change from 1 to 0 during an ongoing overload.

Anyway, I don't think this is a blocking point for the proposal to add the =
new AVP.

Best regards
Ulrich

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 5:13 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Dear Ulrich,

Being:

(0)    OLR per client

(1)    OLR for all clients

Some comments on the interactions you mentioned:

1.       A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid

2.       A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the =
same client invalid

3.       A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid

I do not think 3) is right. Why an OLR per one specific client shall invali=
date OLRs for rest of clients? This will imply that rest of clients will no=
t have any overload mitigation on until they receive a new value of (1), or=
 (0) for each of them.

Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 12:23
To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@iet=
f.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi JJacques,

thank you for the summary.

I think it does not matter whether we call

A)      "OLR per client" the base solution and "OLR for all clients" the op=
timization or

B)      "OLR for all clients" the base solution and "OLR per client" the (3=
GPP) extension
as long as we cover both.

I don't think there are impacts on sequence number handling, report types o=
r DOIC associations.

My proposal then is to add a new mandatory AVP of type enumerated to OC-OLR=
 with values

(0)    OLR per client

(1)    OLR for all clients

Reporting nodes that better like A) could allways send (0) unless they supp=
ort the "optimization" and want to use it;
Reporting nodes that better like B) could allways send (1) unless they supp=
ort the "(3GPP) extension" and want to use it.
Clients can safely ignore the new AVP.
Agents taking the role of the reacting node on behalf of a client must do t=
he binding when receiving (0).

We also need to say something on interactions e.g.:
A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid
A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same clie=
nt invalid
A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid

(i.e. change of type is allowed, mixture is not allowed)

Ulrich


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Hi Steve, MCruz and all

On my side,  I agree with Lionel.

I  have not the  same reading of the draft where I have  not found the Stev=
e's default case.
I agree with Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC association relates to this DOI=
C association  and the OLR can be different  for another DOIC association. =
The basic (or "default") principle is that each DOIC association has its "o=
wn life".

Then,  a server (local policy) can decide  to send  the same OLR to all its=
 clients (so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define  particular =
OLR values for   certain clients.
Another  interest  is that  when the server wants to update the OLR values =
towards  clients, it is  not obliged to send the new values  simultaneously=
  to all the clients : it may  (local server policy) progressively  change =
 the  value  over a certain duration  to minimize  sharp transitions.

So for DOIC supporting clients, the current text allows these possibilities=
, and in particular it satisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.

A second step is to address DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over time,  we=
 may expect that clients will be more and more DOIC supporting; so, this is=
 the main target. DAs with non DOIC client would be more for   a transition=
 (to be considered  nevertheless and which may be long).

The current text says that DA is acting on behalf of "A" client; so princip=
le  with host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there is no differ=
ence for the server, as this does not make a difference  between a DOIC sup=
porting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.
Nevertheless, and here I come to Steve's point,   this has a cost implying =
the DA to manage OLRs per client. Steve  introduces an optimization where i=
n fact a set of clients are considered for me as a pool regarding  DOIC whe=
re only one OLR applies and where throttling  applies  to the requests of t=
his  pool of clients.  I am not against to optimization process   but this =
pool concept is new and needs some further study. First about the concept o=
f DOIC association which evolves , as now linked to a pool .

There was a MCruz remark about sequence number, a new AVP or a  new report =
type.  I see that  we may have to review  the processing of the seq number =
 handling as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so   a "collate=
ral " effect of the optimization. I would also think that, instead of intro=
ducing a single node indication in the OLR (AVP or report type) , it should=
 be a global indication as the optimization   is to support a global DOIC a=
ssociation.  To also see if there are not other collateral effects to analy=
ze.

Ulrich  also mentioned that for realm OLRs we may also have  a different re=
alm  OLR sent to different clients, so this is the same principle as Lionel=
  for  a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.

The current text due to the DOIC association principle,  allows this realm =
OLR per DOIC association for both  DOIC  supporting clients and  DAs acting=
 on behalf of A client. Then I expect Steve  to do the same remark, with th=
e same reason  to have  an optimization  where all clients receives  the  s=
ame realm OLR, but to also see the collateral effects.

As a conclusion, I think we should remain with the current text as the base=
line, following the DOIC association principle that Lionel mentions, and af=
ter more investigation to assess the  optimization  for host and realm OLRs=
 with DA supporting non DOIC,  this optimization being optional.

Best regards

JJacques

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 10:09
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Yes, I agree with Steve.

Best regards
/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24
To: lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>; dime@ietf.or=
g<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Lionel,

The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.

I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.  If this is the case then t=
here is little benefit (and significant overhead) to requiring an agent to =
maintain state per non-supporting client.

I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.  If this is the cas=
e then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the origi=
n-host in the request and only then should agents be required to maintain s=
tate for the non-supporting client.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.c=
om> wrote:
I really don't understand but it is not the first time :)

What about the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent maint=
aining overload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?
So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavio=
r that was implicit if you consider the comments above.

For me, the option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a spec=
ific client. So over two different DOIC association with the same server/re=
porting node, you can have two different OLRs.
But it does not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.

Lionel

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Maria Cruz,

To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.  To this end, it would be better to have this as part of the ba=
se specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want the =
same behavior.

Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes respond to per Origin-Hos=
t reports should be specified in a common way.

Steve
On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
Hello again,

I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already mentioned=
 in related thread #56.

This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on overload miti=
gation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:

TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent implementatio=
ns to decide when and whether overload mitigation differentiation per clien=
t is used".



Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be =
considered by 3GPP applications when required.



Best regards

/MCruz

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Maria Cruz Bartolome
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Steve, all,

I agree with Steve.

However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing =
(if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting node is replaced by new ho=
st OLR (per client).
Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new =
sequence number, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the =
contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OL=
R type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.

Let me know your opinions.
Best regards
/MCruz


From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion

Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.

It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.  If this is the default behavior then it =
would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report =
to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this new feature =
is to allow a server to further throttle a specific, overly active, reactin=
g node when then global reduction percentage doesn't do the job.

In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.

My proposal is the following:

- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.

- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).

- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:
  - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not act on=
 the OLR.
  - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must apply =
the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients.   This implies t=
hat when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate whic=
h non supporting client originated the request.

- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.

Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.  We will need something like this wording indep=
endent of the resolution of this issue.

Steve
On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

Is it implicit?



If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will =
have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this cl=
ient and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm=
 assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host =
of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of=
 this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.



Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to alwa=
ys put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the cl=
ients.



Regards,



Lionel



-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello Ulrich,



I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify=
 if this is what JJ got in mind.



I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the ope=
n question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for=
 one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR =
to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any=
 client.



I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.



Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com]

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19

To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi MCruz,

there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.



If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting =
node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs fro=
m servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduc=
tion from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2)=
; A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 reques=
ting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduct=
ion of traffic from C2 to R.



Best regards

Ulrich



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Barto=
lome

Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello JJ and all,



As per email thread, the latest proposal is:

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."



An Ulrich comments on this:

"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the re=
acting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the=
 case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (fo=
r realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a=
 reacting node towards the server."



Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded?

Best regards

/MCruz



-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hi Mcruz and all



I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" nod=
e which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use va=
rious (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Ho=
st-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiv=
ing realm OLRs are supporting DOIC.

Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  c=
lients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one cl=
ient for other clients  .



For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may alwa=
ys study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the basel=
ine.



Best regards



Jacques







-----Message d'origine-----

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome=
 Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@i=
etf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Hello all,



Not sure we all have the same understanding here.

Let me try to explain my concerns.



The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to =
reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-=
Host" in the request.

Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the se=
rver answer shall be marked:



a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and O=
LR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in th=
e request.

Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D"Origin-Host", the expected reducti=
on is performed and requirement fulfilled.

But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, th=
en the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.

Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agen=
t behavior (possible clause 5.5):

"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a=
 received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request w=
hich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."

But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one=
 specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.

How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Real=
m? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider foll=
owing example:

- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1

- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).

- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OL=
R only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for=
 requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate =
aggregated Realm overload?

In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only=
 meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information,=
 as in b) below.



b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-H=
ost" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.

With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR sha=
ll be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AV=
P.



Let me know your opinions please

Best regards

/MCruz







-----Original Message-----

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28

To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Steve,



please see inline.



Ulrich



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion



Ulrich,



I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.



First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting a=
gents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I gu=
ess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest =
we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording =
indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must b=
e the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC suppor=
ting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.

<Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>





We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being =
the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily=
 happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transact=
ion.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm,=
 but this might not be the case with other algorithms.

<Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for=
 rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>



My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even fo=
r the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload=
 reports.

<Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>

To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports t=
hat are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "s=
ingle-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  =
Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.

<Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. There=
fore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are clie=
nt specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to =
differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the clie=
nt.</Ulrich>



Steve

On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:

Ben,



the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel,=
 Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ).

Now you seem to address two points:

a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.

To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text fo=
r 5.5. as follows:



When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a =
received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request wh=
ich corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.



This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the rea=
cting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the =
case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for=
 realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a =
reacting node towards the server.



b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I dis=
agree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of=
 reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:

1. ignore the 3GPP requirement

2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce th=
e binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.



So far I understood that people favoured option 3.



See also inline.



Ulrich







-----Original Message-----

From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]

Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM

To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)

Cc: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion





On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@=
nsn.com><mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:



#35: additional report types are proposed



Dear all,



I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we =
agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:



When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a clien=
t not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the ori=
gin-host of the client.



I do not agree.



You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.

<Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening=
 DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the =
server's perspective.

<Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whe=
ther it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the rea=
cting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing bind=
s the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients=
.

<Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the cli=
ent</Ulrich>



 Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC=
-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffi=
c by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from =
the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that =
option for non-DOIC clients.



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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

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</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear MCruz=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">certainly =
a valid point. I don&#8217;t have a strong view but I wanted to avoid the m=
ixture to keep things simple.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Maybe we s=
hould forbid the change from 1 to 0 during an ongoing overload.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Anyway, I =
don&#8217;t think this is a blocking point for the proposal to add the new =
AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 27, 2014 5:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Ulric=
h,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Being:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">(0)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New R=
oman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OL=
R per client<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">(1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New R=
oman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OL=
R for all clients<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Some comme=
nts on the interactions you mentioned:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A =
fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A =
fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same client=
 invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A =
fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I do not t=
hink 3) is right. Why an OLR per one specific client shall invalidate OLRs =
for rest of clients? This will imply that rest of clients
 will not have any overload mitigation on until they receive a new value of=
 (1), or (0) for each of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 12:23<br>
<b>To:</b> ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mailto:dime=
@ietf.org">
dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi JJacques,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">thank you =
for the summary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think it=
 does not matter whether we call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo6"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">A)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&n=
bsp;&#8220;OLR per client&#8221; the base solution and &#8220;OLR for all c=
lients&#8221; the optimization or<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo6"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">B)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#=
8220;OLR for all clients&#8221; the base solution and &#8220;OLR per client=
&#8221; the (3GPP) extension<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">as long as=
 we cover both.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I don&#821=
7;t think there are impacts on sequence number handling, report types or DO=
IC associations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My proposa=
l then is to add a new mandatory AVP of type enumerated to OC-OLR with valu=
es<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 leve=
l1 lfo8"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">(0)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New R=
oman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OL=
R per client<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 leve=
l1 lfo8"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><sp=
an style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">(1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New R=
oman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">OL=
R for all clients<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Reporting =
nodes that better like A) could allways send (0) unless they support the &#=
8220;optimization&#8221; and want to use it;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Reporting =
nodes that better like B) could allways send (1) unless they support the &#=
8220;(3GPP) extension&#8221; and want to use it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Clients ca=
n safely ignore the new AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Agents tak=
ing the role of the reacting node on behalf of a client must do the binding=
 when receiving (0).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We also ne=
ed to say something on interactions e.g.:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OL=
R of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OL=
R of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same client invalid=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A fresh OL=
R of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(i.e. chan=
ge of type is allowed, mixture is not allowed)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Steve, =
MCruz and all<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">On my side=
, &nbsp;I agree with Lionel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I &nbsp;ha=
ve not the &nbsp;same reading of the draft where I have &nbsp;not found the=
 Steve&#8217;s default case.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I agree wi=
th Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC association relates to this DOIC associat=
ion &nbsp;and the OLR can be different &nbsp;for another DOIC association.
 The basic (or &#8220;default&#8221;) principle is that each DOIC associati=
on has its &#8220;own life&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Then, &nbs=
p;a server (local policy) can decide &nbsp;to send &nbsp;the same OLR to al=
l its clients (so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define &nbsp;p=
articular
 OLR values for &nbsp;&nbsp;certain clients. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Another &n=
bsp;interest &nbsp;is that &nbsp;when the server wants to update the OLR va=
lues towards &nbsp;clients, it is &nbsp;not obliged to send the new values =
&nbsp;simultaneously
 &nbsp;to all the clients : it may &nbsp;(local server policy) progressivel=
y &nbsp;change &nbsp;the &nbsp;value &nbsp;over a certain duration &nbsp;to=
 minimize &nbsp;sharp transitions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for DOI=
C supporting clients, the current text allows these possibilities, and in p=
articular it satisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A second s=
tep is to address DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over time, &nbsp;we may =
expect that clients will be more and more DOIC supporting; so,
 this is the main target. DAs with non DOIC client would be more for &nbsp;=
&nbsp;a transition (to be considered &nbsp;nevertheless and which may be lo=
ng).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The curren=
t text says that DA is acting on behalf of &#8220;A&#8221; client; so princ=
iple &nbsp;with host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there is no
 difference for the server, as this does not make a difference &nbsp;betwee=
n a DOIC supporting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Neverthele=
ss, and here I come to Steve&#8217;s point, &nbsp;&nbsp;this has a cost imp=
lying the DA to manage OLRs per client. Steve &nbsp;introduces an optimizat=
ion
 where in fact a set of clients are considered for me as a pool regarding &=
nbsp;DOIC where only one OLR applies and where throttling &nbsp;applies &nb=
sp;to the requests of this &nbsp;pool of clients. &nbsp;I am not against to=
 optimization process &nbsp;&nbsp;but this pool concept is new and
 needs some further study. First about the concept of DOIC association whic=
h evolves , as now linked to a pool .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There was =
a MCruz remark about sequence number, a new AVP or a &nbsp;new report type.=
 &nbsp;I see that &nbsp;we may have to review &nbsp;the processing of the s=
eq
 number &nbsp;handling as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;a &#8220;collateral &#8220; effect of the optimization. I woul=
d also think that, instead of introducing a single node indication in the O=
LR (AVP or report type) , it should be a global indication
 as the optimization &nbsp;&nbsp;is to support a global DOIC association. &=
nbsp;To also see if there are not other collateral effects to analyze.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ulrich &nb=
sp;also mentioned that for realm OLRs we may also have &nbsp;a different re=
alm &nbsp;OLR sent to different clients, so this is the same principle as
 Lionel &nbsp;for &nbsp;a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The curren=
t text due to the DOIC association principle, &nbsp;allows this realm OLR p=
er DOIC association for both &nbsp;DOIC&nbsp; supporting clients and &nbsp;=
DAs
 acting on behalf of A client. Then I expect Steve &nbsp;to do the same rem=
ark, with the same reason &nbsp;to have &nbsp;an optimization &nbsp;where a=
ll clients receives &nbsp;the &nbsp;same realm OLR, but to also see the col=
lateral effects.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As a concl=
usion, I think we should remain with the current text as the baseline, foll=
owing the DOIC association principle that Lionel mentions,
 and after more investigation to assess the &nbsp;optimization&nbsp; for ho=
st and realm OLRs with DA supporting non DOIC, &nbsp;this optimization bein=
g optional.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mardi 25 f=E9vrier 2014 10:09<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Yes, I agr=
ee with Steve.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange=
.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Lionel,<br>
<br>
The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload report p=
er client or it is sending a global overload report that applies to all cli=
ents.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be to ha=
ve a single overload reduction value for the application and that that over=
load reduction value will apply to all clients.&nbsp; If this is the case t=
hen there is little benefit (and significant
 overhead) to requiring an agent to maintain state per non-supporting clien=
t.<br>
<br>
I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to have a=
 different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.&nbsp; If this is th=
e case then the reporting node should indicate that it only applies to the =
origin-host in the request and only then
 should agents be required to maintain state for the non-supporting client.=
<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, <a href=3D=
"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I really d=
on't understand but it is not the first time
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings=
;color:#1F497D">J</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What about=
 the DOIC association? What about my assumption about agent maintaining ove=
rload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So for me,=
 the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the agent behavior that was=
 implicit if you consider the comments above.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For me, th=
e option for the server is only to send a specific OLR for a specific clien=
t. So over two different DOIC association with the same server/reporting
 node, you can have two different OLRs.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But it doe=
s not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lionel</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nb=
sp;:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 19:50<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Maria Cruz,<br>
<br>
To the degree possible we should minimize the per application overload logi=
c required.&nbsp; To this end, it would be better to have this as part of t=
he base specification, as it is likely that most/all applications will want=
 the same behavior.<br>
<br>
Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an implementation =
detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How reacting nodes respond to per Origi=
n-Host reports should be specified in a common way.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz=
 Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">Hello again,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I already=
 mentioned in related thread #56.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:#002060">This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on ove=
rload mitigation differentiation per client. But this is a server option:</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 =
states &quot;It may be up to the server/agent implementations to decide whe=
n and whether overload mitigation differentiation per client is
 used&quot;.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Therefore, we can eve=
n consider this new OLR out of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP ap=
plications when required.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best regards</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">/MCruz</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Steve, all=
,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
I agree with Steve.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, I=
 would like to share one concern. We need to avoid that existing (if any) h=
ost OLR (&#8220;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by
 new host OLR (per client).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Host OLR (=
per client) with the new AVP requires that the server uses a new sequence n=
umber, but existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced,
 on the contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per client) should r=
emain.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order t=
o achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (ho=
st per client), instead of a new AVP.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let me kno=
w your opinions.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">/MCruz</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the Origin-Host in =
the request is not just an optimization for agents.<br>
<br>
It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior of a reportin=
g node (server) would be to report a single overload value to all reacting =
nodes, be they clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior the=
n it would be best to have the default,
 implicit, meaning of an overload report to be &quot;applies to all reactin=
g nodes&quot;.&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow a serve=
r to further throttle a specific, overly active, reacting node when then gl=
obal reduction percentage doesn't do the job.<br>
<br>
In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a single globa=
l reduction percentage then requiring agents to bind an overload report to =
each non supporting clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it ad=
ds no value.<br>
<br>
My proposal is the following:<br>
<br>
- Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???) to overload r=
eports that indicate when an overload report applies to a specific reacting=
 node.<br>
<br>
- Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all reacting node=
s (clients and agents acting on behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
<br>
- Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if the overload r=
eport contents are different from the global overload report.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the Single-Node AVP must =
do the following:<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent must not a=
ct on the OLR.<br>
&nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the agent must a=
pply the OLR to traffic from the set of non supporting clients. &nbsp; This=
 implies that when making throttling decisions, the agent does not differen=
tiate which non supporting client originated
 the request.<br>
<br>
- DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node AVP for a tr=
ansaction originated by a non supporting client must bind that OLR to that =
single client.<br>
<br>
Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is missing from th=
e -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will need something like this wording =
independent of the resolution of this issue.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, <a href=3D"=
mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Is it implicit? </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, th=
is agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on beh=
alf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may supp=
ort DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere th=
e origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the =
added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reportin=
g node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same =
for all the clients.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Regards,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Lionel</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Message d'origine-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:27</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hello Ulrich,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wan=
ted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I agree it could be done as you explained in the example belo=
w, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is =
just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ nee=
d to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires sa=
me OLR for any client. </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">/MCruz</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a href=3D"mailto:ulri=
ch.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] </span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">di=
me@ietf.org</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hi MCruz,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of =
the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host=
 type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1=
 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% red=
uctin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLR=
s to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 request=
ing 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ulrich</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hello JJ and all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">As per email thread, the latest proposal is:</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the ag=
ent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that init=
iated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;=
 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">An Ulrich comments on this:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&quot;This would cover not only the case where an agent takes=
 the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting c=
lient, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a=
 reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same=
 time the role of a reacting node towards the server.&quot;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is exclu=
ded? </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">/MCruz</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hi Mcruz and all</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is =
the &quot;reporting&quot; node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clien=
ts, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine am=
ong which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But=
 in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. </span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Here I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the =
DA behavior when&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host=
-OLR received for one client for other clients&nbsp; .</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">For me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline so=
lution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority sho=
uld be on the baseline.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Jacques </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Message d'origine-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy=E9&n=
bsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 13:21 =C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.=
org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hello all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Not sure we all have the same understanding here.</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Let me try to explain my concerns.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need fo=
r a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identifi=
ed by &quot;Origin-Host&quot; in the request.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the=
 OLR in the server answer shall be marked:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the=
 answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by &quot=
;Origin-Host&quot; in the request.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Then, as long as the reacting node=3D=3D&quot;Origin-Host&quo=
t;, the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the rea=
cting node, then the &quot;Origin-Host&quot; identifies final client, but n=
ot the reacting node.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarificat=
ion about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&quot;When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the ag=
ent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that init=
iated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR.&quot;=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies t=
his OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">How will this impact the case where the agent is providing ac=
cess to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 &#43; S2) via Agent1. L=
et's consider following example:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it con=
siders this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only a=
s relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR=
 to calculate aggregated Realm overload?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to conside=
r OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explici=
t information, as in b) below.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the cli=
ent (&quot;Origin-Host&quot; in the request) from which traffic reduction s=
hall apply.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identif=
y when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identi=
fied by new AVP.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Let me know your opinions please</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Best regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">/MCruz</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: ext Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@=
ietf.org</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Steve,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">please see inline.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ulrich</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ulrich,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently =
outlined.&nbsp; </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOI=
C supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting nod=
e.&nbsp; This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this pr=
oposal.&nbsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is cu=
rrently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that rec=
eives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.=
&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for =
the non-supporting client.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple=
 agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as thi=
s could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a s=
ingle transaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for =
the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it =
is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt=
;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the=
 agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differen=
tiate overload reports.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking=
 the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp=
; Absence of the &quot;single-client-only&quot; AVP would mean that the rep=
ort applies to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that t=
he OLR applies to the Origin-Host.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimizati=
on for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: un=
marked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting no=
de does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the=
 binding to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Steve</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:</s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ben,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far=
 (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Now you seem to address two points:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clar=
ifying text for 5.5. as follows:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent ne=
eds to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated =
the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. </span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the r=
ole of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client,=
 but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a repor=
ting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time =
the role of a reacting node towards the server.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the cli=
ent Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting diffe=
rent amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 opti=
ons:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">1. ignore the 3GPP requirement</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3=
. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">So far I understood that people favoured option 3.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">See also inline.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ulrich</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: ext Ben Campbell [<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ma=
ilto:ben@nostrum.com</a>]</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) =
<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wr=
ote:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">#35: additional report types are proposed</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Dear all,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types=
. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> </span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initia=
ted by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received =
OLR to the origin-host of the client.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I do not agree.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to th=
at client.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&=
nbsp; If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client,=
 is the reacting node from the server's perspective.</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The serv=
er does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes=
 the role of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an=
 origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless=
 of DOIC support at the clients.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOI=
C support at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change =
that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of r=
educing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacti=
ng nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It=
 doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_____________________________________________________________=
____________________________________________________________</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informa=
tions confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si =
vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. L=
es messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete alter=
e, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">they should not be distributed, used or copied without author=
isation.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If you have received this email in error, please notify the s=
ender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages t=
hat have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Thank you.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_____________________________________________________________=
____________________________________________________________</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informa=
tions confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si =
vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. L=
es messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete alter=
e, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">they should not be distributed, used or copied without author=
isation.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If you have received this email in error, please notify the s=
ender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages t=
hat have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Thank you.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre=
>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
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I think if you change number three to the following then it works better.

  3. A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid for
the client to which the answer message is being routed.  The agent shall
apply the OLR or type (0) for traffic from that client. The old OLR of
type (1) continues to apply for all clients that do not have a "per
client" overload report.

I think it is important for a reporting node to be able to start with an
"all clients" overload report and then transition to "per client"
reports for chatty clients.

Steve


On 2/27/14 11:47 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Dear MCruz,
>
>  
>
> certainly a valid point. I don't have a strong view but I wanted to
> avoid the mixture to keep things simple.
>
> Maybe we should forbid the change from 1 to 0 during an ongoing overload.
>
>  
>
> Anyway, I don't think this is a blocking point for the proposal to add
> the new AVP.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Maria
> Cruz Bartolome
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 27, 2014 5:13 PM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Dear Ulrich,
>
>  
>
> Being:
>
> (0)    OLR per client
>
> (1)    OLR for all clients
>
>  
>
> Some comments on the interactions you mentioned:
>
> 1.       A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid
>
> 2.       A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to
> the same client invalid
>
> 3.       A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid
>
>  
>
> I do not think 3) is right. Why an OLR per one specific client shall
> invalidate OLRs for rest of clients? This will imply that rest of
> clients will not have any overload mitigation on until they receive a
> new value of (1), or (0) for each of them.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Wiehe,
> Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> *Sent:* miércoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 12:23
> *To:* ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org
> <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Hi JJacques,
>
>  
>
> thank you for the summary.
>
>  
>
> I think it does not matter whether we call
>
> A)      "OLR per client" the base solution and "OLR for all clients"
> the optimization or
>
> B)      "OLR for all clients" the base solution and "OLR per client"
> the (3GPP) extension
>
> as long as we cover both.
>
>  
>
> I don't think there are impacts on sequence number handling, report
> types or DOIC associations.
>
>  
>
> My proposal then is to add a new mandatory AVP of type enumerated to
> OC-OLR with values
>
> (0)    OLR per client
>
> (1)    OLR for all clients
>
>  
>
> Reporting nodes that better like A) could allways send (0) unless they
> support the "optimization" and want to use it;
>
> Reporting nodes that better like B) could allways send (1) unless they
> support the "(3GPP) extension" and want to use it.
>
> Clients can safely ignore the new AVP.
>
> Agents taking the role of the reacting node on behalf of a client must
> do the binding when receiving (0).
>
>  
>
> We also need to say something on interactions e.g.:
>
> A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of any type invalid
>
> A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (0) bound to the same
> client invalid
>
> A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid
>
>  
>
> (i.e. change of type is allowed, mixture is not allowed)
>
>  
>
> Ulrich
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext TROTTIN,
> JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM
> *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Hi Steve, MCruz and all
>
>  
>
> On my side,  I agree with Lionel.
>
>  
>
> I  have not the  same reading of the draft where I have  not found the
> Steve's default case.
>
> I agree with Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC association relates to
> this DOIC association  and the OLR can be different  for another DOIC
> association. The basic (or "default") principle is that each DOIC
> association has its "own life".
>
>  
>
> Then,  a server (local policy) can decide  to send  the same OLR to
> all its clients (so for all its DOIC associations) , or it can define
>  particular OLR values for   certain clients.
>
> Another  interest  is that  when the server wants to update the OLR
> values towards  clients, it is  not obliged to send the new values
>  simultaneously  to all the clients : it may  (local server policy)
> progressively  change  the  value  over a certain duration  to
> minimize  sharp transitions.
>
>  
>
> So for DOIC supporting clients, the current text allows these
> possibilities, and in particular it satisfies the 3GGP client
> mitigation requirement.
>
>  
>
> A second step is to address DAs supporting non DOIC clients. Over
> time,  we may expect that clients will be more and more DOIC
> supporting; so, this is the main target. DAs with non DOIC client
> would be more for   a transition (to be considered  nevertheless and
> which may be long).
>
>  
>
> The current text says that DA is acting on behalf of "A" client; so
> principle  with host OLR per DOIC association also applies, and there
> is no difference for the server, as this does not make a difference
>  between a DOIC supporting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.
>
> Nevertheless, and here I come to Steve's point,   this has a cost
> implying the DA to manage OLRs per client. Steve  introduces an
> optimization where in fact a set of clients are considered for me as a
> pool regarding  DOIC where only one OLR applies and where throttling
>  applies  to the requests of this  pool of clients.  I am not against
> to optimization process   but this pool concept is new and needs some
> further study. First about the concept of DOIC association which
> evolves , as now linked to a pool .
>
>  
>
> There was a MCruz remark about sequence number, a new AVP or a  new
> report type.  I see that  we may have to review  the processing of the
> seq number  handling as also dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type;
> so   a "collateral " effect of the optimization. I would also think
> that, instead of introducing a single node indication in the OLR (AVP
> or report type) , it should be a global indication as the optimization
>   is to support a global DOIC association.  To also see if there are
> not other collateral effects to analyze.
>
>  
>
> Ulrich  also mentioned that for realm OLRs we may also have  a
> different realm  OLR sent to different clients, so this is the same
> principle as Lionel  for  a realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I
> agree.
>
>  
>
> The current text due to the DOIC association principle,  allows this
> realm OLR per DOIC association for both  DOIC  supporting clients and
>  DAs acting on behalf of A client. Then I expect Steve  to do the same
> remark, with the same reason  to have  an optimization  where all
> clients receives  the  same realm OLR, but to also see the collateral
> effects.
>
>  
>
> As a conclusion, I think we should remain with the current text as the
> baseline, following the DOIC association principle that Lionel
> mentions, and after more investigation to assess the  optimization 
> for host and realm OLRs with DA supporting non DOIC,  this
> optimization being optional.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
>  
>
> JJacques
>
>  
>
> *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Maria Cruz
> Bartolome
> *Envoyé :* mardi 25 février 2014 10:09
> *À :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Objet :* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Yes, I agree with Steve.
>
>  
>
> Best regards
>
> /MCruz
>
>  
>
> *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Donovan
> *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24
> *To:* lionel.morand@orange.com <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>;
> dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>  
>
> Lionel,
>
> The question is whether the reporting node is sending the overload
> report per client or it is sending a global overload report that
> applies to all clients. 
>
> I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting node will be
> to have a single overload reduction value for the application and that
> that overload reduction value will apply to all clients.  If this is
> the case then there is little benefit (and significant overhead) to
> requiring an agent to maintain state per non-supporting client.
>
> I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being able to
> have a different reduction value for specific reacting nodes.  If this
> is the case then the reporting node should indicate that it only
> applies to the origin-host in the request and only then should agents
> be required to maintain state for the non-supporting client.
>
> Steve
>
> On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>     I really don't understand but it is not the first time J
>
>      
>
>     What about the DOIC association? What about my assumption about
>     agent maintaining overload control state for non-DOIC enabled client?
>
>     So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a clarification on the
>     agent behavior that was implicit if you consider the comments above.
>
>      
>
>     For me, the option for the server is only to send a specific OLR
>     for a specific client. So over two different DOIC association with
>     the same server/reporting node, you can have two different OLRs.
>
>     But it does not change the way the OLR is handled by reacting nodes.
>
>      
>
>     Lionel
>
>      
>
>     *De :*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Steve
>     Donovan
>     *Envoyé :* lundi 24 février 2014 19:50
>     *À :* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>     *Objet :* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>      
>
>     Maria Cruz,
>
>     To the degree possible we should minimize the per application
>     overload logic required.  To this end, it would be better to have
>     this as part of the base specification, as it is likely that
>     most/all applications will want the same behavior.
>
>     Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is an
>     implementation detail of the reporting node.  How reacting nodes
>     respond to per Origin-Host reports should be specified in a common
>     way.
>
>     Steve
>
>     On 2/24/14 12:40 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>
>         Hello again,
>
>          
>
>         I forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I
>         already mentioned in related thread #56.
>
>          
>
>         This is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on
>         overload mitigation differentiation per client. But this is a
>         server option:
>
>         TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up to the server/agent
>         implementations to decide when and whether overload mitigation
>         differentiation per client is used".
>
>          
>
>         Therefore, we can even consider this new OLR out of the base
>         draft, and be considered by 3GPP applications when required.
>
>          
>
>         Best regards
>
>         /MCruz
>
>          
>
>         *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>         *Maria Cruz Bartolome
>         *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19
>         *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Steve, all,
>
>
>         I agree with Steve.
>
>          
>
>         However, I would like to share one concern. We need to avoid
>         that existing (if any) host OLR ("all-client") in the reacting
>         node is replaced by new host OLR (per client).
>
>         Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP requires that the
>         server uses a new sequence number, but existing host OLR (all)
>         shall not be replaced, on the contrary both Host OLR (all) and
>         new Host OLR (per client) should remain.
>
>         In order to achieve this, it could be more convenient to use a
>         dedicated OLR type (host per client), instead of a new AVP.
>
>          
>
>         Let me know your opinions.
>
>         Best regards
>
>         /MCruz
>
>          
>
>          
>
>         *From:*DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>         *Steve Donovan
>         *Sent:* lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56
>         *To:* dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>          
>
>         Adding an AVP to indicate that a report applies just to the
>         Origin-Host in the request is not just an optimization for agents.
>
>         It had been my assumption all along that the default behavior
>         of a reporting node (server) would be to report a single
>         overload value to all reacting nodes, be they clients or
>         agents.  If this is the default behavior then it would be best
>         to have the default, implicit, meaning of an overload report
>         to be "applies to all reacting nodes".  The real value of this
>         new feature is to allow a server to further throttle a
>         specific, overly active, reacting node when then global
>         reduction percentage doesn't do the job.
>
>         In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes have a
>         single global reduction percentage then requiring agents to
>         bind an overload report to each non supporting clients pushes
>         a lot of extra work on agents when it adds no value.
>
>         My proposal is the following:
>
>         - Add an optional AVP (call it something like Single-Node???)
>         to overload reports that indicate when an overload report
>         applies to a specific reacting node.
>
>         - Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies to all
>         reacting nodes (clients and agents acting on behalf of
>         non-DOIC clients).
>
>         - Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node AVP if
>         the overload report contents are different from the global
>         overload report.
>
>         - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the
>         Single-Node AVP must do the following:
>           - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the agent
>         must not act on the OLR.
>           - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients the
>         agent must apply the OLR to traffic from the set of non
>         supporting clients.   This implies that when making throttling
>         decisions, the agent does not differentiate which non
>         supporting client originated the request.
>
>         - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the Single-Node
>         AVP for a transaction originated by a non supporting client
>         must bind that OLR to that single client.
>
>         Note that the agent behavior is currently something that is
>         missing from the -01 version of the draft.  We will need
>         something like this wording independent of the resolution of
>         this issue.
>
>         Steve
>
>         On 2/24/14 8:06 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com
>         <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>
>             Is it implicit? 
>
>              
>
>             If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.
>
>              
>
>             Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.
>
>              
>
>             Regards,
>
>              
>
>             Lionel
>
>              
>
>             -----Message d'origine-----
>
>             De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>             Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 14:27
>
>             À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hello Ulrich,
>
>              
>
>             I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.
>
>              
>
>             I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. 
>
>              
>
>             I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.
>
>              
>
>             Best regards
>
>             /MCruz
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com] 
>
>             Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19
>
>             To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hi MCruz,
>
>             there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.
>
>              
>
>             If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.
>
>              
>
>             Best regards
>
>             Ulrich
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome
>
>             Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM
>
>             To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hello JJ and all,
>
>              
>
>             As per email thread, the latest proposal is:
>
>             "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." 
>
>              
>
>             An Ulrich comments on this:
>
>             "This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."
>
>              
>
>             Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? 
>
>             Best regards
>
>             /MCruz
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)
>
>             Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43
>
>             To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hi Mcruz and all
>
>              
>
>             I think that you are  mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. 
>
>             Here I understand the on going  discussion is about the DA behavior when  clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients  .
>
>              
>
>             For me I remain on  my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.
>
>              
>
>             Best regards
>
>              
>
>             Jacques 
>
>              
>
>                
>
>              
>
>             -----Message d'origine-----
>
>             De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoyé : lundi 24 février 2014 13:21 À : dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org> Objet : Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Hello all,
>
>              
>
>             Not sure we all have the same understanding here.
>
>             Let me try to explain my concerns.
>
>              
>
>             The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
>
>             Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:
>
>              
>
>             a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.
>
>             Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.
>
>             But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.
>
>             Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):
>
>             "When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."
>
>             But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.
>
>             How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:
>
>             - C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1
>
>             - S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).
>
>             - Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?
>
>             In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.
>
>              
>
>             b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.
>
>             With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.
>
>              
>
>             Let me know your opinions please
>
>             Best regards
>
>             /MCruz
>
>              
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>             Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28
>
>             To: ext Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Steve,
>
>              
>
>             please see inline.
>
>              
>
>             Ulrich
>
>              
>
>             From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>
>             Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM
>
>             To: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>             Ulrich,
>
>              
>
>             I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.  
>
>              
>
>             First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.  This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.  I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.  Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.
>
>             <Ulrich>I fully agree</Ulrich>
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.  On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.
>
>             <Ulrich>I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)</Ulrich>
>
>              
>
>             My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.
>
>             <Ulrich> I agree </Ulrich>
>
>             To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.  Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.  Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.
>
>             <Ulrich>I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.</Ulrich>     
>
>              
>
>             Steve
>
>             On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
>             Ben,
>
>              
>
>             the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). 
>
>             Now you seem to address two points:
>
>             a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.
>
>             To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:
>
>              
>
>             When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. 
>
>              
>
>             This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.
>
>              
>
>             b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:
>
>             1. ignore the 3GPP requirement
>
>             2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.
>
>              
>
>             So far I understood that people favoured option 3.
>
>              
>
>             See also inline.
>
>              
>
>             Ulrich
>
>              
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>
>             From: ext Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
>
>             Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM
>
>             To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>
>             Cc: dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
>             Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion
>
>              
>
>              
>
>             On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> <mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>
>              
>
>             #35: additional report types are proposed
>
>              
>
>             Dear all,
>
>              
>
>             I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:
>
>              
>
>             When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.
>
>              
>
>             I do not agree.
>
>              
>
>             You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.
>
>             <Ulrich>exactly, that was the intention</Ulrich>  If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.
>
>             <Ulrich> the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node</Ulrich>  But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.
>
>             <Ulrich> the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client</Ulrich>
>
>              
>
>              Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)  It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.
>
>              
>
>             _______________________________________________
>
>             DiME mailing list
>
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    <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I think if you change
      number three to the following then it works better.<br>
      <br>
      &nbsp; 3. A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of type (1) invalid
      for the client to which the answer message is being routed.&nbsp; The
      agent shall apply the OLR or type (0) for traffic from that
      client. The old OLR of type (1) continues to apply for all clients
      that do not have a "per client" overload report.<br>
      <br>
      I think it is important for a reporting node to be able to start
      with an "all clients" overload report and then transition to "per
      client" reports for chatty clients.<br>
      <br>
      Steve<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/27/14 11:47 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN
      - DE/Munich) wrote:<br>
    </div>
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Dear MCruz,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">certainly a valid point. I don&#8217;t have a strong
            view but I wanted to avoid the mixture to keep things
            simple.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Maybe we should forbid the change from 1 to 0
            during an ongoing overload.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Anyway, I don&#8217;t think this is a blocking point
            for the proposal to add the new AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 27, 2014 5:13 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Dear Ulrich,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Being:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">(0)<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">OLR per client<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">(1)<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">OLR for all clients<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Some comments on the interactions you
            mentioned:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of
            any type invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of
            type (0) bound to the same client invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo4"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of
            type (1) invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I do not think 3) is right. Why an OLR per one
            specific client shall invalidate OLRs for rest of clients?
            This will imply that rest of clients will not have any
            overload mitigation on until they receive a new value of
            (1), or (0) for each of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> mi&eacute;rcoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 12:23<br>
                <b>To:</b> ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">
                  dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi
            JJacques,
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">thank you for the summary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I think it does not matter whether we call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">A)<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&#8220;OLR per client&#8221; the base solution and &#8220;OLR
            for all clients&#8221; the optimization or<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">B)<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">&#8220;OLR for all clients&#8221; the base solution and
            &#8220;OLR per client&#8221; the (3GPP) extension<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">as long as we cover both.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I don&#8217;t think there are impacts on sequence
            number handling, report types or DOIC associations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">My proposal then is to add a new mandatory AVP
            of type enumerated to OC-OLR with values<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo8"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">(0)<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">OLR per client<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoListParagraph"
          style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo8"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">(1)<span
                style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
              </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">OLR for all clients<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Reporting nodes that better like A) could
            allways send (0) unless they support the &#8220;optimization&#8221; and
            want to use it;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Reporting nodes that better like B) could
            allways send (1) unless they support the &#8220;(3GPP) extension&#8221;
            and want to use it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Clients can safely ignore the new AVP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Agents taking the role of the reacting node on
            behalf of a client must do the binding when receiving (0).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">We also need to say something on interactions
            e.g.:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A fresh OLR of type (1) makes all old OLRs of
            any type invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of
            type (0) bound to the same client invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A fresh OLR of type (0) makes an old OLR of
            type (1) invalid<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">(i.e. change of type is allowed, mixture is not
            allowed)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES
                (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:07 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Hi Steve, MCruz and all<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">On my side, &nbsp;I agree with Lionel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I &nbsp;have not the &nbsp;same reading of the draft
            where I have &nbsp;not found the Steve&#8217;s default case.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">I agree with Lionel that the OLR for a DOIC
            association relates to this DOIC association &nbsp;and the OLR
            can be different &nbsp;for another DOIC association. The basic
            (or &#8220;default&#8221;) principle is that each DOIC association has
            its &#8220;own life&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Then, &nbsp;a server (local policy) can decide &nbsp;to
            send &nbsp;the same OLR to all its clients (so for all its DOIC
            associations) , or it can define &nbsp;particular OLR values for
            &nbsp;&nbsp;certain clients. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Another &nbsp;interest &nbsp;is that &nbsp;when the server
            wants to update the OLR values towards &nbsp;clients, it is &nbsp;not
            obliged to send the new values &nbsp;simultaneously &nbsp;to all the
            clients : it may &nbsp;(local server policy) progressively
            &nbsp;change &nbsp;the &nbsp;value &nbsp;over a certain duration &nbsp;to minimize
            &nbsp;sharp transitions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">So for DOIC supporting clients, the current
            text allows these possibilities, and in particular it
            satisfies the 3GGP client mitigation requirement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">A second step is to address DAs supporting non
            DOIC clients. Over time, &nbsp;we may expect that clients will be
            more and more DOIC supporting; so, this is the main target.
            DAs with non DOIC client would be more for &nbsp;&nbsp;a transition
            (to be considered &nbsp;nevertheless and which may be long).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">The current text says that DA is acting on
            behalf of &#8220;A&#8221; client; so principle &nbsp;with host OLR per DOIC
            association also applies, and there is no difference for the
            server, as this does not make a difference &nbsp;between a DOIC
            supporting client and a DA supporting non DOIC clients.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Nevertheless, and here I come to Steve&#8217;s point,
            &nbsp;&nbsp;this has a cost implying the DA to manage OLRs per client.
            Steve &nbsp;introduces an optimization where in fact a set of
            clients are considered for me as a pool regarding &nbsp;DOIC
            where only one OLR applies and where throttling &nbsp;applies &nbsp;to
            the requests of this &nbsp;pool of clients. &nbsp;I am not against to
            optimization process &nbsp;&nbsp;but this pool concept is new and
            needs some further study. First about the concept of DOIC
            association which evolves , as now linked to a pool .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">There was a MCruz remark about sequence number,
            a new AVP or a &nbsp;new report type. &nbsp;I see that &nbsp;we may have to
            review &nbsp;the processing of the seq number &nbsp;handling as also
            dependent of the new AVP or the OLR type; so &nbsp;&nbsp;a &#8220;collateral
            &#8220; effect of the optimization. I would also think that,
            instead of introducing a single node indication in the OLR
            (AVP or report type) , it should be a global indication as
            the optimization &nbsp;&nbsp;is to support a global DOIC association.
            &nbsp;To also see if there are not other collateral effects to
            analyze.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Ulrich &nbsp;also mentioned that for realm OLRs we
            may also have &nbsp;a different realm &nbsp;OLR sent to different
            clients, so this is the same principle as Lionel &nbsp;for &nbsp;a
            realm OLR per DOIC association, on which I agree.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">The current text due to the DOIC association
            principle, &nbsp;allows this realm OLR per DOIC association for
            both &nbsp;DOIC&nbsp; supporting clients and &nbsp;DAs acting on behalf of
            A client. Then I expect Steve &nbsp;to do the same remark, with
            the same reason &nbsp;to have &nbsp;an optimization &nbsp;where all clients
            receives &nbsp;the &nbsp;same realm OLR, but to also see the
            collateral effects.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">As a conclusion, I think we should remain with
            the current text as the baseline, following the DOIC
            association principle that Lionel mentions, and after more
            investigation to assess the &nbsp;optimization&nbsp; for host and
            realm OLRs with DA supporting non DOIC, &nbsp;this optimization
            being optional.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">JJacques
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="FR">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="FR"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> mardi 25 f&eacute;vrier 2014 10:09<br>
                <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Yes, I agree with Steve.</span><span
            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 20:24<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a>;
                <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
            lang="EN-US">Lionel,<br>
            <br>
            The question is whether the reporting node is sending the
            overload report per client or it is sending a global
            overload report that applies to all clients.&nbsp;
            <br>
            <br>
            I still believe that the default behavior of a reporting
            node will be to have a single overload reduction value for
            the application and that that overload reduction value will
            apply to all clients.&nbsp; If this is the case then there is
            little benefit (and significant overhead) to requiring an
            agent to maintain state per non-supporting client.<br>
            <br>
            I also agree that there is value to the reporting node being
            able to have a different reduction value for specific
            reacting nodes.&nbsp; If this is the case then the reporting node
            should indicate that it only applies to the origin-host in
            the request and only then should agents be required to
            maintain state for the non-supporting client.<br>
            <br>
            Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 2/24/14 12:57 PM, <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">I really don't understand but it is not the
              first time
            </span><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">J</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">What about the DOIC association? What about
              my assumption about agent maintaining overload control
              state for non-DOIC enabled client?</span><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">So for me, the proposal from Ulrich is a
              clarification on the agent behavior that was implicit if
              you consider the comments above.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">For me, the option for the server is only to
              send a specific OLR for a specific client. So over two
              different DOIC association with the same server/reporting
              node, you can have two different OLRs.</span><span
              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">But it does not change the way the OLR is
              handled by reacting nodes.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Lionel</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US">De&nbsp;:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
                  <b>Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 19:50<br>
                  <b>&Agrave;&nbsp;:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US">Maria Cruz,<br>
              <br>
              To the degree possible we should minimize the per
              application overload logic required.&nbsp; To this end, it
              would be better to have this as part of the base
              specification, as it is likely that most/all applications
              will want the same behavior.<br>
              <br>
              Whether a reporting node uses per Origin-Host reports is
              an implementation detail of the reporting node.&nbsp; How
              reacting nodes respond to per Origin-Host reports should
              be specified in a common way.<br>
              <br>
              Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 2/24/14 12:40 PM,
                Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">Hello
                again,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">I
                forgot to mention something else in this thread, that I
                already mentioned in related thread #56.</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060" lang="EN-US">This
                is all in order to take into account 3GPP requirement on
                overload mitigation differentiation per client. But this
                is a server option:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">TR 29809 ch. 6.4.7.1 states "It may be up
                to the server/agent implementations to decide when and
                whether overload mitigation differentiation per client
                is used".</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">Therefore, we can even consider this new
                OLR out of the base draft, and be considered by 3GPP
                applications when required.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoPlainText"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 19:19<br>
                    <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Steve, all,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><br>
                I agree with Steve.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">However, I would like to share one concern.
                We need to avoid that existing (if any) host OLR
                (&#8220;all-client&#8221;) in the reacting node is replaced by new
                host OLR (per client).</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Host OLR (per client) with the new AVP
                requires that the server uses a new sequence number, but
                existing host OLR (all) shall not be replaced, on the
                contrary both Host OLR (all) and new Host OLR (per
                client) should remain.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">In order to achieve this, it could be more
                convenient to use a dedicated OLR type (host per
                client), instead of a new AVP.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Let me know your opinions.</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US"> DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Donovan<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 16:56<br>
                    <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span
                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                lang="EN-US">Adding an AVP to indicate that a report
                applies just to the Origin-Host in the request is not
                just an optimization for agents.<br>
                <br>
                It had been my assumption all along that the default
                behavior of a reporting node (server) would be to report
                a single overload value to all reacting nodes, be they
                clients or agents.&nbsp; If this is the default behavior then
                it would be best to have the default, implicit, meaning
                of an overload report to be "applies to all reacting
                nodes".&nbsp; The real value of this new feature is to allow
                a server to further throttle a specific, overly active,
                reacting node when then global reduction percentage
                doesn't do the job.<br>
                <br>
                In addition, if the normal case is that reporting nodes
                have a single global reduction percentage then requiring
                agents to bind an overload report to each non supporting
                clients pushes a lot of extra work on agents when it
                adds no value.<br>
                <br>
                My proposal is the following:<br>
                <br>
                - Add an optional AVP (call it something like
                Single-Node???) to overload reports that indicate when
                an overload report applies to a specific reacting node.<br>
                <br>
                - Absence of the AVP indicates that the report applies
                to all reacting nodes (clients and agents acting on
                behalf of non-DOIC clients).<br>
                <br>
                - Reporting nodes should only include the Single-Node
                AVP if the overload report contents are different from
                the global overload report.<br>
                <br>
                - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR without the
                Single-Node AVP must do the following:<br>
                &nbsp; - For transactions from DOIC-supporting clients the
                agent must not act on the OLR.<br>
                &nbsp; - For transactions from non-DOIC-supporting clients
                the agent must apply the OLR to traffic from the set of
                non supporting clients. &nbsp; This implies that when making
                throttling decisions, the agent does not differentiate
                which non supporting client originated the request.<br>
                <br>
                - DOIC-supporting agents receiving an OLR with the
                Single-Node AVP for a transaction originated by a non
                supporting client must bind that OLR to that single
                client.<br>
                <br>
                Note that the agent behavior is currently something that
                is missing from the -01 version of the draft.&nbsp; We will
                need something like this wording independent of the
                resolution of this issue.<br>
                <br>
                Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 2/24/14 8:06
                  AM, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
                    lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Is it implicit? </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">If the agent detects that a client is not supporting DOIC, this agent will have to store the corresponding overload control state on behalf of this client and only this client (saying that other clients may support DOIC). I'm assuming then that any agent will have to store somewhere the origin-host of this client. And therefore, I don't see what would be the added-value of this AVP saying that this OLR is only for this client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Even if this AVP is present, it would not preclude a reporting node to always put this AVP in every answer, even if the OLR is the same for all the clients.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Lionel</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Message d'origine-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 14:27</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&Agrave;&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hello Ulrich,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I haven't proposed to limit this to host type OLR, I just wanted to clarify if this is what JJ got in mind.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I agree it could be done as you explained in the example below, but the open question is whether it is better to add an AVP when OLR is just meant for one single client, or on the contrary the agent _always_ need to bind OLR to one specific client, even if the server simply requires same OLR for any client. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I think having a new AVP simplifies agent behavior.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com</a>] </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 14:19</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: Maria Cruz Bartolome; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: RE: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hi MCruz,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">there is no reason to limit this to host type OLRs.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">If we have an agent A that is configured to take the role of the reporting node for realm-type reports for realm R, A could receive host type OLRs from servers S1 and S2 (e.g. S1 requesting 10% reduction from C1 and 20% reduction from C2, S2 requesting 30% reduction from C1 and 40% reductin from C2); A then would aggregate these info and return realm type OLRs to C1 requesting 20% reduction of traffic from C1 to R, and to C2 requesting 30% reduction of traffic from C2 to R.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Maria Cruz Bartolome</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 2:02 PM</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hello JJ and all,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">As per email thread, the latest proposal is:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR." </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">An Ulrich comments on this:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">"This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server."</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Is your proposal limited to Host-OLR, i.e. Realm OLR is excluded? </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 13:43</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hi Mcruz and all</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I think that you are&nbsp; mixing the case of the DA that is the "reporting" node which wants to indicate a realm OLR to clients, and for which will use various (non standardized ) ways to determine among which it can reuse the Host-OLR AVPs received from various servers. But in this case, clients receiving realm OLRs are supporting DOIC. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Here I understand the on going&nbsp; discussion is about the DA behavior when&nbsp; clients is not supporting DOIC and to reuse the Host-OLR received for one client for other clients&nbsp; .</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">For me I remain on&nbsp; my previous mail, with a baseline solution. We may always study new extensions, optimizations, but priority should be on the baseline.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Jacques </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Message d'origine-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome Envoy&eacute;&nbsp;: lundi 24 f&eacute;vrier 2014 13:21 &Agrave;&nbsp;: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a> Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Hello all,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Not sure we all have the same understanding here.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Let me try to explain my concerns.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">The original 3GPP requirement we want to cover is the need for a server to reduce traffic for one specific client, i.e. traffic identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Then, two options are under analysis about whether or not the OLR in the server answer shall be marked:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">a) OLR does not need to include anything else Receiver of the answer (and OLR) is the client that sends the request, identified by "Origin-Host" in the request.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Then, as long as the reacting node=="Origin-Host", the expected reduction is performed and requirement fulfilled.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">But, when an agent is acting on behalf of a client as the reacting node, then the "Origin-Host" identifies final client, but not the reacting node.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Then, this is why the proposal is to add following clarification about agent behavior (possible clause 5.5):</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">"When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR."</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">But this will imply that _always_ the reacting node applies this OLR to one specific client, what is not what we need to achieve.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">How will this impact the case where the agent is providing access to a Realm? E.g. C1 and C2 accesses RealmX (S1 + S2) via Agent1. Let's consider following example:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">- C1 sends a Realm request via Agent, that finally reaches S1</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">- S1 answers with OLR (Host:50%).</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">- Agent is acting as reacting node on behalf of C1, if it considers this OLR only bind to C1... then... should it consider S1-OLR only as relevant for requests coming from C1? Should agent do not use this S1-OLR to calculate aggregated Realm overload?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">In my opinion, in this case it does not make sense to consider OLR was only meant to C1. And this problem could be solved adding explicit information, as in b) below.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">b) OLR needs to be extended (new AVP) that identifies the client ("Origin-Host" in the request) from which traffic reduction shall apply.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">With this new AVP, reacting node will easy be able to identify when OLR shall be applied to any client or just to the Origin-Host identified by new AVP.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Let me know your opinions please</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Best regards</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">/MCruz</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 12:28</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: ext Steve Donovan; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Steve,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">please see inline.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: DiME [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 4:53 PM</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ulrich,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I have a couple of concerns with this approach, as currently outlined.&nbsp; </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">First, how do we handle the case where there are multiple DOIC supporting agents between the non supporting client and the reporting node.&nbsp; This, I guess, is a general question, not just applying to this proposal.&nbsp; I suggest we capture in the agent behavior section that is currently missing wording indicating that the first supporting agent that receives the request must be the reacting node for that non-supporting client.&nbsp; Subsequent DOIC supporting agents must not be the reacting node for the non-supporting client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I fully agree&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">We need to think through the ramifications of having multiple agents being the reacting node for the same non supporting clients, as this could easily happen in networks where multiple agents are involved in a single transaction.&nbsp; On the surface it doesn't seem to be an issue for the loss algorithm, but this might not be the case with other algorithms.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I agree that this is not an issue for loss; it is an issue e.g. for rate (i.e. for draft-donovan-dime-doc-rate-control)&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">My other concern is that this puts a lot of extra onus on the agent even for the case where the reporting node does not want to differentiate overload reports.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; I agree &lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To this end I suggest we add an indication in the OLR marking the reports that are specific to just the Origin-Host in the request.&nbsp; Absence of the "single-client-only" AVP would mean that the report applies to all clients.&nbsp; Presence of the AVP would indicate that the OLR applies to the Origin-Host.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;I understand that the proposal is an optimization for agents. Therefore the semantics of the marking should be reverse: unmarked OLRs are client specific, marked OLRs indicate that the reporting node does not want to differentiate, and therefore allow agents not to do the binding to the client.&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Steve</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">On 2/21/14 4:48 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ben,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">the proposed conclusion was based on comments received so far (from Lionel, Nirav, Steve, MCruz, JJ). </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Now you seem to address two points:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">a) There is no dependency to DOIC support of the client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To address this I would like to propose rewording of the clarifying text for 5.5. as follows:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">When an agent takes the role of a reacting node, the agent needs to bind a received OLR to the origin host of the client that initiated the request which corresponds to the answer containing the OLR. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">This would cover not only the case where an agent takes the role of the reacting node on behalf of a (or several) non supporting client, but also the case where an agent is configured to take the role of a reporting node (for realm-type reports) towards the client and at the same time the role of a reacting node towards the server.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">b) There is no binding of the OLR to the orig-host of the client Here I disagree. We have the 3GPP requirement to allow requesting different amount of reduction from different clients, and I think we have 3 options:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">1. ignore the 3GPP requirement</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">2. introduce new report types as originally proposed in #35 3. introduce the binding between OLR and orig-host of the client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">So far I understood that people favoured option 3.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">See also inline.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ulrich</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">From: ext Ben Campbell [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ben@nostrum.com">mailto:ben@nostrum.com</a>]</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:55 PM</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#35 conclusion</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">On Feb 20, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com">&lt;ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com&gt;</a> wrote:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">#35: additional report types are proposed</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Dear all,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I believe we can conclude, not to add additional report types. However, we agreed to add clarifying text to clause 5.5 as follows:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">When an agent received an OLR in response to a request initiated by a client not supporting DOIC, this agent needs to bind the received OLR to the origin-host of the client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">I do not agree.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">You proposal implies that the server's OLR only applies to that client.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt;exactly, that was the intention&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; If there's an intervening DOIC agent, then the agent, not the client, is the reacting node from the server's perspective.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the server's perspective is agnostic. The server does not know whether it's the client or an agent on the path that takes the role of the reacting node&lt;/Ulrich&gt;&nbsp; But, short of adding an origin-host type, nothing binds the OLR to a particular client, regardless of DOIC support at the clients.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&lt;Ulrich&gt; the binding is always there, regardless of DOIC support at the client&lt;/Ulrich&gt;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"> Whether or not the client also supports DOIC doesn't change that. For DOIC-supporting clients, the agent has the additional option of reducing traffic by asking the clients to reduce traffic (making them reacting nodes from the perspective of the _agent_, but not the server.)&nbsp; It doesn't have that option for non-DOIC clients.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Thank you.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                lang="EN-US"><br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">DiME mailing list</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;" lang="EN-US">Thank you.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: "ext Askerup, Anders" <anders.askerup@hp.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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Anders,

Yes, if we conclude that there is a requirement for OC-Supported-Features t=
o be sent in answers, then it should be included in every answer. However, =
I still don't see that requirement. In addition we would need some text spe=
cifying the expected behaviour of the reacting node when receiving OC-Suppo=
rted-Features in an answer, keeping in mind that the reacting node cannot k=
now whether it was the server or an agent that inserted the OC-Supported-Fe=
ature, and whether or not a subsequent request will be routed via that node=
.

Ulrich

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Askerup, Anders
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 6:14 PM
To: Ben Campbell; Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status

I also agree that including OC-Supported-Features in every answer is prefer=
able. In addition to mirroring Requests, it is in-line with how Supported-F=
eatures are managed in at least some 3GPP interfaces as well.

/Anders

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:19 AM
To: Steve Donovan
Cc: dime@ietf.org list
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status


On Feb 26, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote=
:

> SRD> We don't have consensus yet, but if we agree on the need for reactin=
g nodes to know whether there is support for DOIC in the Diameter network t=
hen I think the requirement would be similar to how we are handling overloa=
d reports.  The reporting node MUST ensure that all reacting nodes receive =
the OC-Supported-Features AVP.  This can be done by including the AVP in al=
l answer messages or it can be done by remembering to whom the AVP has been=
 sent.

Given the trivial nature of sending and reading OC-Supported-Features, I th=
ink we should put it in every answer. This mirrors the way we handle it in =
requests.

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Cc: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
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<as a chair>

Right. We are going back and forth and continue to do that as long
as none of these moving parts can be nailed down. My proposal here
is that we simply agree now that OC-Supported-Features is in every
answer message. Period. Get one corner nailed down.

The rest of the fixing inconsistencies and missing/excess parts
listed below then need to be done according to the above decision.

- JOuni


On Feb 28, 2014, at 9:50 AM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Anders,
>=20
> Yes, if we conclude that there is a requirement for =
OC-Supported-Features to be sent in answers, then it should be included =
in every answer. However, I still don't see that requirement. In =
addition we would need some text specifying the expected behaviour of =
the reacting node when receiving OC-Supported-Features in an answer, =
keeping in mind that the reacting node cannot know whether it was the =
server or an agent that inserted the OC-Supported-Feature, and whether =
or not a subsequent request will be routed via that node.
>=20
> Ulrich
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Askerup, =
Anders
> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 6:14 PM
> To: Ben Campbell; Steve Donovan
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
>=20
> I also agree that including OC-Supported-Features in every answer is =
preferable. In addition to mirroring Requests, it is in-line with how =
Supported-Features are managed in at least some 3GPP interfaces as well.
>=20
> /Anders
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:19 AM
> To: Steve Donovan
> Cc: dime@ietf.org list
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#30 status
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 26, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> SRD> We don't have consensus yet, but if we agree on the need for =
reacting nodes to know whether there is support for DOIC in the Diameter =
network then I think the requirement would be similar to how we are =
handling overload reports.  The reporting node MUST ensure that all =
reacting nodes receive the OC-Supported-Features AVP.  This can be done =
by including the AVP in all answer messages or it can be done by =
remembering to whom the AVP has been sent.
>=20
> Given the trivial nature of sending and reading OC-Supported-Features, =
I think we should put it in every answer. This mirrors the way we handle =
it in requests.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
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<as a chair>

Ok. We can conclude issue #52 sorted.=20

@Maria could you update the final text into the issue tracker and mark =
it as closed?

- Jouni


On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

> +1
>=20
> On Feb 12, 2014, at 7:34 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Thanks Jouni, I didn't realize.
>> One more correction added
>>=20
>>> Proposal:
>>> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce=20=

>>> its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
>>> reacting node would send 100 packets to the				=
<---
>>> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20=

>>> 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>>> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true  =
     <---
>>> reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up =
to=20
>>> the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=20
>>> packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic =
try=20
>>> to recover from it.
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
>> Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 10:36
>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on =
previous history
>>=20
>>=20
>> Fine by me.. though you then need to apply the same change to the =
rest of this paragraph, not only the first one.
>>=20
>> Also, please update this additional concern into the issue tracker =
issue #52.
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>> On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Same comment also applies to following paragraph in 5.5.2
>>>=20
>>> Now:
>>> 0 < value < 100
>>>=20
>>>    Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to
>>>    reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the
>>>    reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the
>>>    reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value
>>>    of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only =
send
>>>    90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true
>>>    reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is =
up
>>>    to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every
>>>    10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application
>>>    logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100
>>>=20
>>> Proposal:
>>> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce=20=

>>> its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the
>>> reacting node would send 100 packets to the				=
<---
>>> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of=20=

>>> 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send
>>> 90 packets per second. How the reacting node achieves the "true=20
>>> reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up =
to=20
>>> the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th=20
>>> packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic =
try=20
>>> to recover from it.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> We should not specify a rates for the simple loss algorithm. It's up =
to the implementation how to reduce, but no time unit has to be =
specified.=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: dime issue tracker [mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org]
>>> Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 12 de febrero de 2014 9:13
>>> To: Maria Cruz Bartolome
>>> Cc: dime@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous=20=

>>> history
>>>=20
>>> #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history
>>>=20
>>> Now (chapter 4.7):
>>>  The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of =
Unsigned32
>>>  and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is
>>>  requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.
>>>=20
>>> Proposal:
>>> The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of =
Unsigned32  and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender =
is  requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The intention is to avoid that anyone may interpret reacting node is =
 required to consider history of sent information when throttling.
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> =
-----------------------------------------------+----------------------
>>> -----------------------------------------------+--
>>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>>>   Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
>>> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>>> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>>>                                             |   Keywords:
>>> =
-----------------------------------------------+----------------------
>>> -----------------------------------------------+--
>>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>>=20
>>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/52>
>>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Thread-Topic: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history - conclusion
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--_000_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4CF58DPEXCVZYM13corpora_
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Jouni, I'm assuming that you are OK with the conclusion given here too, rig=
ht? :)

De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 26 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56
=C0 : dime@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

Fine

From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUE=
S (JEAN-JACQUES)
Sent: mi=E9rcoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 8:43
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion

Hi

Remove "from now on" is acceptable for me, but  I have a preference for the=
 reverse wording Lionel proposes, which is shorter and brings the clarifica=
tion I was looking for,:

For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 has been received, the reacting node which

 would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90

 packets to the reporting node.


Best regards

JJacques


De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 17:00
=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>
Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion

I'm with Lionel.  I don't understand why the proposed wording is confusing.=
  Reacting nodes always only apply the reduction percentage for the period =
of time that the specific overload report is active.  That period either en=
ds when a new overload report is received or when the overload report expir=
es.

That said, I'm happy with just removing the words "from no on" as proposed =
by Lionel below.

Steve

On 2/24/14 7:26 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.co=
m> wrote:

I don't see the issue, as explained in my mail but OK to remove it.



If "for now" is removed, the resulting text would be:



  For example if the reacting node has been sending

  100 packets per second to the reporting node, then

  a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of 10

  would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST

  only send 90 packets per second.



Maybe it would be even easier to reverse the sentence as follow:



 For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 has been received, the reacting node which

 would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90

 packets to the reporting node.





But I'm fine if the initial proposed revised text is kept.



Lionel



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome

Envoy=E9 : lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:13

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion



Hello,



I agree with Ulrich's proposal

Cheers

/MCruz



From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN -=
 DE/Munich)

Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46

To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@iet=
f.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion



I share JJacques concern. Replacing "from now on" with "for the period that=
 the overload report is active"

is misleading. May be its better to simply remove "from now on".



Ulrich











From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JA=
CQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)

Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM

To: dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous hist=
ory - conclusion



Hi MCruz, Steve



I also agree on the "would send " instead of the "would have sent"  for sur=
e.  But I have  a small concern/ clarification  about the Steve comment on =
  "for the period that the overload report is active" and the example to wh=
ich it refers.



During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long,  the traffic t=
he reacting node would send may be 100 packet  when it has just received th=
e OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could be 120 (or 80), and fro=
m the OLR definition,   it would send 120x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on  whi=
ch I agree. This is in line  with the every 10th packet dropping  on which =
I also agree.



As the text   would  be written with the Steve modification , we may unders=
tand it is  80 Packet during all the time  the OLR is active. Not yet think=
 to an alternative text, but first to see if you agree with my remark.



JJacques





De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange=
.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33

=C0 : Steve Donovan; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion



+1 (including Steve comment)



De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan

Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37

=C0 : dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@ietf.org>

Objet : Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous histo=
ry - conclusion



Maria Cruz,



I support your suggested changes.  I have one further suggested change belo=
w.



Steve

On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:

#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history



Following agreement is reached:



 Now (chapter 4.7):

    The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

    and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

    requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would have sent.



 Proposal:

   The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) is type of Unsigned32

   and describes the percentage of the traffic that the sender is

   requested to reduce, compared to what it otherwise would send.          =
        <----





 Now (chapter 5.5.2):

      Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to

      reduce its traffic by a given percentage.  For example if the

      reacting node has been sending 100 packets per second to the

      reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value

      of 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

      90 packets per second.  How the reacting node achieves the "true

      reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up

      to the implementation.  The reacting node MAY simply drop every

      10th packet from its output queue and let the generic application

      logic try to recover from it.0 < value < 100



  Proposal:

 Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to reduce

 its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the

 reacting node would send 100 packets to the                          <---

 reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value of

 10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST only send

 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves the "true       =
<---

 reduction" transactions leading to the sent request messages is up to

 the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop every 10th

 packet from its output queue and let the generic application logic try

 to recover from it.

SRD> Replace "from now on" in the above with "for the period that the overl=
oad report is active"















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Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

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ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.



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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime




___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jouni, I'm=
 assuming that you are OK with the conclusion given here too, right?
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings=
;color:#1F497D">J</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Maria Cruz Bartolome<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 26 f=E9vrier 2014 13:56<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Fine</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [mailto:dime-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> mi=E9rcoles, 26 de febrero de 2014 8:43<br>
<b>To:</b> dime@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on previo=
us history - conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Remove &#8=
220;from now on&#8221; is acceptable for me, but &nbsp;I have a preference =
for the reverse wording Lionel proposes, which is shorter and brings the cl=
arification
 I was looking for,:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of <o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;10 has been received, the reacting node which <o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90 <o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;packets to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">JJacques
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">De&nbsp;:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:windowtext"> DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org=
">mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Donovan<br>
<b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 17:00<br>
<b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on pr=
evious history - conclusion</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I'm with Lionel.&nbsp; I don't =
understand why the proposed wording is confusing.&nbsp; Reacting nodes alwa=
ys only apply the reduction percentage for the period of time that the spec=
ific overload report is active.&nbsp; That period either
 ends when a new overload report is received or when the overload report ex=
pires.<br>
<br>
That said, I'm happy with just removing the words &quot;from no on&quot; as=
 proposed by Lionel below.<br>
<br>
Steve<br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 2/24/14 7:26 AM, <a href=3D"=
mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">
lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I don't see the issue, as explained in my mail but OK to remo=
ve it. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If &quot;for now&quot; is removed, the resulting text would b=
e:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp; For example if the reacting node has been sending<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp; 100 packets per second to the reporting node, then<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp; a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage value&nbsp;of 1=
0<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp; would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp; only send 90 packets per second.<o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Maybe it would be even easier to reverse the sentence as foll=
ow:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> For example if an OC-Reduction-Percentage value of <o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;10 has been received, the reacting node which <o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;would normally send 100 packets MUST only send 90 <o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;packets to the reporting node.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">But I'm fine if the initial proposed revised text is kept.<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Lionel<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Maria Cruz Bartolome<o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Envoy=E9&nbsp;: lundi 24 f=E9vrier 2014 14:13<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be base=
d on previous history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hello,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I agree with Ulrich's proposal<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">/MCruz<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: lunes, 24 de febrero de 2014 10:46<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES); <a href=3D"mail=
to:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on=
 previous history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I share JJacques concern. Replacing &quot;from now on&quot; w=
ith &quot;for the period that the overload report is active&quot;<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">is misleading. May be its better to simply remove &quot;from =
now on&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ulrich<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">From: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:d=
ime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of ext TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQ=
UES)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pr=
e>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">To: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Subject: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be based on=
 previous history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Hi MCruz, Steve<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I also agree on the &quot;would send &quot; instead of the &q=
uot;would have sent&quot; &nbsp;for sure. &nbsp;But I have &nbsp;a small co=
ncern/ clarification &nbsp;about the Steve comment on &nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;for=
 the period that the overload report is active&quot; and the example to whi=
ch it refers.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">During the time the OLR is active, which may be rather long, =
&nbsp;the traffic the reacting node would send may be 100 packet &nbsp;when=
 it has just received the OLR. A bit later, the traffic it would send could=
 be 120 (or 80), and from the OLR definition, &nbsp;&nbsp;it would send 120=
x0,9 (or 80* 0,9) packets, on&nbsp; which I agree. This is in line &nbsp;wi=
th the every 10th packet dropping &nbsp;on which I also agree. <o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">As the text &nbsp;&nbsp;would &nbsp;be written with the Steve=
 modification , we may understand it is &nbsp;80 Packet during all the time=
 &nbsp;the OLR is active. Not yet think to an alternative text, but first t=
o see if you agree with my remark.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">JJacques <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de <a href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand=
@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Envoy=E9&nbsp;: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 18:33<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">=C0&nbsp;: Steve Donovan; <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">di=
me@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be base=
d on previous history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&#43;1 (including Steve comment)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">De&nbsp;: DiME [<a href=3D"mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org">mail=
to:dime-bounces@ietf.org</a>] De la part de Steve Donovan<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Envoy=E9&nbsp;: vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:37<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">=C0&nbsp;: <a href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Dime] #52: Throttling not needed to be base=
d on previous history - conclusion<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Maria Cruz,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">I support your suggested changes.&nbsp; I have one further su=
ggested change below.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">On 2/21/14 2:40 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">#52: Throttling not needed to be based on previous history<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Following agreement is reached:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> Now (chapter 4.7):<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code =
TBD8) is type of Unsigned32<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and describes the percentage of the traffi=
c that the sender is<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; requested to reduce, compared to what it o=
therwise would have sent.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;Proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp; The OC-Reduction-Percentage AVP (AVP code TBD8) =
is type of Unsigned32&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and describes the percentage of the traffic=
 that the sender is&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;requested to reduce, compared to what it ot=
herwise would send.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;----<o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;Now (chapter 5.5.2):<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Indicates that the reporting n=
ode urges the reacting node to<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduce its traffic by a given =
percentage.&nbsp; For example if the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reacting node has been sending=
 100 packets per second to the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reporting node, then a recepti=
on of OC-Reduction-Percentage value<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of 10 would mean that from now=
 on the reacting node MUST only send<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90 packets per second.&nbsp; H=
ow the reacting node achieves the &quot;true<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reduction&quot; transactions l=
eading to the sent request messages is up<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the implementation.&nbsp; T=
he reacting node MAY simply drop every<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10th packet from its output qu=
eue and let the generic application<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logic try to recover from it.0=
 &lt; value &lt; 100<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp; Proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> Indicates that the reporting node urges the reacting node to=
 reduce <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;its traffic by a given percentage. For example if the<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> reacting node would send 100 packets to the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> reporting node, then a reception of OC-Reduction-Percentage =
value of <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;10 would mean that from now on the reacting node MUST o=
nly send<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> 90 packets instead of 100. How the reacting node achieves th=
e &quot;true&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;---<o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"> reduction&quot; transactions leading to the sent request mes=
sages is up to <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;the implementation. The reacting node MAY simply drop e=
very 10th <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;packet from its output queue and let the generic applic=
ation logic try <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;to recover from it.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">SRD&gt; Replace &quot;from now on&quot; in the above with &qu=
ot;for the period that the overload report is active&quot;<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_____________________________________________________________=
____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informa=
tions confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si =
vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. L=
es messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete alter=
e, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">they should not be distributed, used or copied without author=
isation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If you have received this email in error, please notify the s=
ender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages t=
hat have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_____________________________________________________________=
____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informa=
tions confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si =
vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. L=
es messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete alter=
e, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">they should not be distributed, used or copied without author=
isation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">If you have received this email in error, please notify the s=
ender and delete this message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages t=
hat have been modified, changed or falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">DiME mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</PRE></body>
</html>

--_000_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4CF58DPEXCVZYM13corpora_--


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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To: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>, "Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) Wiehe" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>, "lionel.morand@orange.com Morand" <lionel.morand@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within	OC-OLR
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<as a chair>

It seems we reached a conclusion here. So summarizing:

o Document that the sequence number is:
 - Globally/eternally unique.
 - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.
o Write a non-normative recommendation/suggestion how to create
  sequence numbers fulfilling the above requirements (e.g. using
  NTP as one component).

@Ulrich or Lionel could you update the above into the ticket
 and close it?



- JOuni


On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:28 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

> +1. It doesn't even have to be "suggested" in the since of a =
(non-normative) recommendation. It can merely be an example of an =
approach which meets the stated requirements.
>=20
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:25 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> Jouni,
>>=20
>> The important thing is to define the properties.  There should be no =
harm in giving one suggested implementation.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>>> If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally
>>> and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP
>>> then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less
>>> mandatory reference..
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome=20
>>> <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It sounds reasonable to me as well.
>>>> /MCruz
>>>>=20
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>>>> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
>>>> To:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> +1
>>>> On 2/10/14 7:47 AM,=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that =
the real requirements for the sequence-number are:
>>>>=20
>>>> - Globally/eternally unique
>>>> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as =
remind by Steve)=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on =
how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
>>>>=20
>>>> Lionel
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
>>>> Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33
>>>> =C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
>>>>=20
>>>> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>>>>  reason to remember anything about it
>>>> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
>>>>  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
>>>>  "globally and eternally unique".
>>>>=20
>>>> - Jouni
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)"=20
>>>> <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve,
>>>>=20
>>>> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to =
sync after OLR expiry.
>>>> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
>>>> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember =
anything about it and the next overload report received could, =
conceivably have any value.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Ulrich
>>>>=20
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
>>>> To:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> A couple of things -=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically =
over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing =
this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time =
stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent =
after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for =
each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better =
properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll =
over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is =
not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence =
number server after each reboot.
>>>>=20
>>>> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us =
one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence =
number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires =
there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload =
report received could, conceivably have any value.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base =
Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be =
globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial =
differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the =
overload report.
>>>>=20
>>>> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use =
of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be =
worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id =
includes a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a =
recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined =
below ..."
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>>> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
>>>> But I can see interoperability problems with the current =
definition:
>>>>=20
>>>> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
>>>> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20=

>>>> The receiver would accept
>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
>>>> and then silently discards
>>>> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
>>>> with no way to come back to sync.
>>>>=20
>>>> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>>>>=20
>>>> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender =
and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored =
value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to =
solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>>>>=20
>>>> Ulrich
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
>>>> To: ext=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>=20
>>>> Cc:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence =
number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop =
requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A =
time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but =
it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM,=20
>>>> <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop =
requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
>>>> We are not violating anything.
>>>>=20
>>>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter =
interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any =
MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids =
interop issues.
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Ben Campbell [
>>>> mailto:ben@nostrum.com
>>>> ]=20
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc : Steve Donovan;=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way =
to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an =
implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level =
requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>>>=20
>>>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it =
is
>>>>  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which =
has
>>>>  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>>>=20
>>>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we =
expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would =
be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then =
add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a =
timestamp is a good way to do this.
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM,=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use =
case to mandate a specific semantic.
>>>>=20
>>>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if =
it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>>>=20
>>>> Lionel
>>>>=20
>>>> De : DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] De la part de Steve Donovan
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
>>>> =C0 :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation =
decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  =
That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>>>> I also agree.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Nirav.
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>=20
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>>>> To:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>>>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>>>=20
>>>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of =
this sequence-number.
>>>>=20
>>>> Lionel
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>>> ]
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>>>   =46rom the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number =
AVP MUST
>>>>   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>>>   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the =
AVP
>>>>   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is =
only
>>>>   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>>>   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>>>   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>>>   related or correlated.
>>>>=20
>>>>   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>>>   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>>>   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of =
the
>>>>   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you =
are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>>>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit =
NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was =
created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time =
of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =
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>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
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>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
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privileged information that may be protected by law;
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>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>=20
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>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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>>>>=20
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>>>>=20
>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
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>>>>=20
>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
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>>>>=20
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>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>>=20
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>, "Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) Wiehe" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 14:02:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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I will

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 28 f=E9vrier 2014 15:01
=C0=A0: dime@ietf.org list; Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) Wiehe; MORAND Lionel I=
MT/OLN
Objet=A0: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within O=
C-OLR


<as a chair>

It seems we reached a conclusion here. So summarizing:

o Document that the sequence number is:
 - Globally/eternally unique.
 - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.
o Write a non-normative recommendation/suggestion how to create
  sequence numbers fulfilling the above requirements (e.g. using
  NTP as one component).

@Ulrich or Lionel could you update the above into the ticket
 and close it?



- JOuni


On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:28 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

> +1. It doesn't even have to be "suggested" in the since of a (non-normati=
ve) recommendation. It can merely be an example of an approach which meets =
the stated requirements.
>=20
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:25 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wro=
te:
>=20
>> Jouni,
>>=20
>> The important thing is to define the properties.  There should be no har=
m in giving one suggested implementation.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>>> If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally
>>> and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP
>>> then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less
>>> mandatory reference..
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome=20
>>> <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It sounds reasonable to me as well.
>>>> /MCruz
>>>>=20
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>>>> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
>>>> To:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> +1
>>>> On 2/10/14 7:47 AM,=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the r=
eal requirements for the sequence-number are:
>>>>=20
>>>> - Globally/eternally unique
>>>> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind=
 by Steve)=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on ho=
w to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
>>>>=20
>>>> Lionel
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
>>>> Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33
>>>> =C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
>>>>=20
>>>> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>>>>  reason to remember anything about it
>>>> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
>>>>  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
>>>>  "globally and eternally unique".
>>>>=20
>>>> - Jouni
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)"=20
>>>> <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve,
>>>>=20
>>>> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync a=
fter OLR expiry.
>>>> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
>>>> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anythi=
ng about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have a=
ny value.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Ulrich
>>>>=20
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
>>>> To:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> A couple of things -=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically ove=
r time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this =
but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to =
set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot a=
nd then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent over=
load report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time sta=
mp as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a glob=
al sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter ser=
ver query that global sequence number server after each reboot.
>>>>=20
>>>> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one =
way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number o=
f an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no =
reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received =
could, conceivably have any value.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diame=
ter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globall=
y and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentia=
tion is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.
>>>>=20
>>>> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of N=
TP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a =
similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a manda=
tory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format fo=
r the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>>> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
>>>> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
>>>>=20
>>>> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
>>>> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
>>>> The receiver would accept
>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
>>>> and then silently discards
>>>> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
>>>> with no way to come back to sync.
>>>>=20
>>>> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>>>>=20
>>>> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and p=
lausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and =
time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the pr=
oblem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>>>>=20
>>>> Ulrich
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
>>>> To: ext=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>=20
>>>> Cc:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number a=
lways increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement tha=
t the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is proba=
bly a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself,=
 an interop requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM,=20
>>>> <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", i=
t is a case for a "MUST".
>>>> We are not violating anything.
>>>>=20
>>>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces=
 to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the for=
mat of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Ben Campbell [
>>>> mailto:ben@nostrum.com
>>>> ]=20
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc : Steve Donovan;=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to m=
eet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implemen=
tation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so.=
 Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>>>=20
>>>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>>>>  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>>>>  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>>>=20
>>>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expe=
cted peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be per=
fectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-=
normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a go=
od way to do this.
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM,=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use cas=
e to mandate a specific semantic.
>>>>=20
>>>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it i=
s a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>>>=20
>>>> Lionel
>>>>=20
>>>> De : DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] De la part de Steve Donovan
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
>>>> =C0 :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision. =
 There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be=
 included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>>>> I also agree.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Nirav.
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>=20
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>>>> To:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>>>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>>>=20
>>>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this=
 sequence-number.
>>>>=20
>>>> Lionel
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>>> ]
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>>>   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUST
>>>>   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>>>   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>>>>   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>>>>   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>>>   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>>>   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>>>   related or correlated.
>>>>=20
>>>>   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>>>   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>>>   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>>>>   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are o=
ut  of sync (for whatever reason).
>>>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NT=
P  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was create=
d,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of recepti=
on  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
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>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
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 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
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>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>=20
>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;
>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.
>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
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>>>>=20
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>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
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>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>>=20
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32 (draft-docdt-dime-ovli): Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
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#32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR

Changes (by lionel.morand@orange-ftgroup.com):

 * status:  new => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


Comment:

 It seems we reached a conclusion here. So summarizing:

 o Document that the sequence number is:
  - Globally/eternally unique.
  - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.
 o Write a non-normative recommendation/suggestion how to create
   sequence numbers fulfilling the above requirements (e.g. using
   NTP as one component).

-- 
--------------------------------------+---------------------------
 Reporter:  lionel.morand@orange.com  |       Owner:  Ulrich Wiehe
     Type:  defect                    |      Status:  closed
 Priority:  major                     |   Milestone:
Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli     |     Version:
 Severity:  Active WG Document        |  Resolution:  fixed
 Keywords:                            |
--------------------------------------+---------------------------

Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/32#comment:1>
dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>


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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be	ignored
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<as a chair>

We seem to have reached a conclusion that invalid reduction percentages
should be ignored.

@ben could you update the ticket and close it?

- JOuni


On Feb 15, 2014, at 12:29 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

>=20
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> I agree that a clarification is needed on what it means to be =
"treated as is the OC-Validity-Duration AVP was not present".  It would =
e better to say:
>>=20
>>  "Invalid validity duration values are given the default value".
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> +1.
>=20
> I recognize this is different from what I said about reduction =
percentage. My reasoning is, if the sender includes an invalid duration, =
we don't know the intended duration. But since there is a default =
duration, we can assume it. Reduction-Percentage, however, has no such =
default (nor should it.). If we get an invalid reduction percentage, we =
really have no idea what the sender intended us to do.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/10/14 11:29 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>> Hi Steve,
>>>=20
>>> About the OC-Validity-Reduction AVP values greater than 24 hours, it =
is said that the default value 5s applies.
>>>=20
>>> I was therefore wondering if it should be also considered as an =
error and therefore discarded. It is a real open question. Not an issue =
per se as I'm fine with the existing text. I was reacting on the reason =
for change explained by Ben.
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>>=20
>>> Lionel
>>>=20
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Steve Donovan
>>> Envoy=E9 : lundi 10 f=E9vrier 2014 17:59
>>> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than =
100 should be ignored
>>>=20
>>> It is possible, the range defined is zero to 24 hours.  I think the =
text is correct as it says that a value out of this range should be =
ignored.
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/10/14 10:50 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 8, 2014, at 10:37 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Ben,
>>>=20
>>> OK with this statement.
>>> But if it is agreed, would it mean that the same consideration =
should apply for the OC-Validity-Duration AVP values?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I'm not sure I follow the question. Is it possible to send an =
invalid OC-Validity-Duration value?
>>>=20
>>> Lionel
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue =
tracker
>>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 23:05
>>> =C0 : draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
>>> Cc : dime@ietf.org
>>> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 =
should be ignored
>>>=20
>>> #47: reduction percentages greater than 100 should be ignored
>>>=20
>>> Section 4.7 says " [Reduction-Percentage] Values greater than 100 =
are
>>> interpreted as 100."
>>>=20
>>> An OLR with an invalid value should be ignored. An invalid value =
indicates
>>> incorrect behavior on the part of the sender. In this case, it's not =
safe
>>> to assume we know what the sender really intended.
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
>>> Reporter:               |      Owner:  draft-docdt-dime-
>>> ben@nostrum.com        |  ovli@tools.ietf.org
>>>    Type:  defect       |     Status:  new
>>> Priority:  minor        |  Milestone:
>>> Component:  draft-       |    Version:  1.0
>>> docdt-dime-ovli        |   Keywords:
>>> Severity:  Active WG    |
>>> Document               |
>>> =
-------------------------+------------------------------------------------=
-
>>>=20
>>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/47>
>>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>> =
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>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
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avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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To: Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01@gmail.com>
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Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] I have a doubt in Failover and Fallback mechanisms present under DIAMETER.
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Kevin,

Are you now referring to Diameter applications that maintain state or =
not?
In case of the former, your client has learned the identity of the =
server
and will continue sending messages to it (i.e. the secondary) during the
lifetime of the entire session.

In case of latter, each request would have a different session-id.

- Jouni


On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,=20
>=20
> Failover and Fallback procedures we know very well.
>=20
> Suppose initial message was supposed to send to primary peer, but peer =
went down and message has been forwarded to Secondary peer i.e. =
Failover. Now suppose if Primary Peer has come up and according to =
DIAMETER theory the message should go to primary peer. So the next =
message will be Update message. Which will have the same session id =
which was used with the initial message.=20
>=20
> Now my doubt is how the primary peer will recognize the session-id of =
update message. Because it has no info for that session. The session was =
created with the secondary peer.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Kevin Peterson
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>, "lionel.morand@orange.com Morand" <lionel.morand@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
Thread-Index: AQHPNI2TqhH4VHI0WUyT8/Gx+1refJrKw8vQ
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:07:53 +0000
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References: <066.f8b7ffcffcd55b9e56fa2bfc281d4649@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F24BC0.6070600@usdonovans.com> <29564_1391614624_52F25AA0_29564_1057_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487344@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2ACDC7E8-A46D-4618-92CE-B793AF3A8F75@nostrum.com> <29459_1391615624_52F25E88_29459_734_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4873CD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <29FCFFE7-64BF-4928-A3DF-F2FC0D1EFBC6@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B23D7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52F3AF0D.3050306@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B253C@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <855AE46B-9E69-452E-A8C7-9AA26019A4B4@gmail.com> <14044_1392040069_52F8D885_14044_469_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4975BB@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F8DB0C.3000603@usd onovans.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920977322F@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <0D5D9C6F-5233-4987-99C4-A257382917EC@gmail.com> <52FCB9D6.3070908@usdonovans.com> <2771A62F-E982-4A31-A827-E2C4AC14132B@nostrum.com> <90D54457-ADE1-4A18-8F14-F8CA0D47EC56@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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Dear Jouni,
My understanding is that #32 is RESOLVED as follows:

Agreed - Sequence-Number is of type Unsigned64.
=20
Agreed - When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the seq=
uence number contained in the active overload report to which it applies (i=
ncluding over reboot of that node).
Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for the initial occurrence=
 of an overload condition at a reporting node (where "initial occurrence me=
ans something like "moving from no overload to overload after a sufficientl=
y long periode of no overload").=20
When received, a sequence number is used to detect outdates/replays/freshne=
ss.
=20
Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting nodes.

Can be CLOSED when the next version of the draft correctly reflects this ag=
reement.

Ulrich




-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 3:01 PM
To: dime@ietf.org list; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); lionel.morand@oran=
ge.com Morand
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC=
-OLR


<as a chair>

It seems we reached a conclusion here. So summarizing:

o Document that the sequence number is:
 - Globally/eternally unique.
 - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.
o Write a non-normative recommendation/suggestion how to create
  sequence numbers fulfilling the above requirements (e.g. using
  NTP as one component).

@Ulrich or Lionel could you update the above into the ticket
 and close it?



- JOuni


On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:28 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

> +1. It doesn't even have to be "suggested" in the since of a (non-normati=
ve) recommendation. It can merely be an example of an approach which meets =
the stated requirements.
>=20
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:25 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wro=
te:
>=20
>> Jouni,
>>=20
>> The important thing is to define the properties.  There should be no har=
m in giving one suggested implementation.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>>> If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally
>>> and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP
>>> then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less
>>> mandatory reference..
>>>=20
>>> - Jouni
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome=20
>>> <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It sounds reasonable to me as well.
>>>> /MCruz
>>>>=20
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>>>> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
>>>> To:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> +1
>>>> On 2/10/14 7:47 AM,=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that the r=
eal requirements for the sequence-number are:
>>>>=20
>>>> - Globally/eternally unique
>>>> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as remind=
 by Steve)=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft on ho=
w to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
>>>>=20
>>>> Lionel
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
>>>> Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33
>>>> =C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
>>>>=20
>>>> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>>>>  reason to remember anything about it
>>>> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
>>>>  on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
>>>>  "globally and eternally unique".
>>>>=20
>>>> - Jouni
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)"=20
>>>> <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve,
>>>>=20
>>>> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to sync a=
fter OLR expiry.
>>>> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
>>>> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember anythi=
ng about it and the next overload report received could, conceivably have a=
ny value.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Ulrich
>>>>=20
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
>>>> To:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> A couple of things -=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically ove=
r time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing this =
but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time stamp to =
set the sequence number for the first overload report sent after a reboot a=
nd then increment the sequence number value by one for each subsequent over=
load report sent.  This actually has better properties than an NTP time sta=
mp as it would take much longer to roll over.  One could also create a glob=
al sequence number service that is not tied to time and have a Diameter ser=
ver query that global sequence number server after each reboot.
>>>>=20
>>>> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us one =
way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence number o=
f an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires there is no =
reason to remember anything about it and the next overload report received =
could, conceivably have any value.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base Diame=
ter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be globall=
y and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial differentia=
tion is based on the context of the message carrying the overload report.
>>>>=20
>>>> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use of N=
TP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be worded in a =
similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id includes a manda=
tory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a recommended format fo=
r the implementation-defined portion is outlined below ..."
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>>> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
>>>> But I can see interoperability problems with the current definition:
>>>>=20
>>>> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
>>>> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
>>>> The receiver would accept
>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
>>>> and then silently discards
>>>> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
>>>> with no way to come back to sync.
>>>>=20
>>>> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>>>>=20
>>>> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender and p=
lausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored value and =
time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to solve the pr=
oblem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>>>>=20
>>>> Ulrich
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
>>>> To: ext=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>=20
>>>> Cc:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence number a=
lways increases over time scope. We do not have the interop requirement tha=
t the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A time stamp is proba=
bly a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but it is not, in itself,=
 an interop requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM,=20
>>>> <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop requirement", i=
t is a case for a "MUST".
>>>> We are not violating anything.
>>>>=20
>>>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter interfaces=
 to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any MUST on the for=
mat of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids interop issues.
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Ben Campbell [
>>>> mailto:ben@nostrum.com
>>>> ]=20
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc : Steve Donovan;=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way to m=
eet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an implemen=
tation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level requirement to do so.=
 Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>>>=20
>>>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where it is
>>>>  actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
>>>>  potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>>>=20
>>>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we expe=
cted peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would be per=
fectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then add a non-=
normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a timestamp is a go=
od way to do this.
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM,=20
>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use cas=
e to mandate a specific semantic.
>>>>=20
>>>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if it i=
s a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>>>=20
>>>> Lionel
>>>>=20
>>>> De : DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> ] De la part de Steve Donovan
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
>>>> =C0 :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values withi=
n OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation decision. =
 There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  That should be=
 included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>>>> I also agree.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Nirav.
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: DiME [
>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>=20
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>>>> To:=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values with=
in OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>>>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>>>=20
>>>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of this=
 sequence-number.
>>>>=20
>>>> Lionel
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>>> ]
>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc :=20
>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>>=20
>>>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>>>   From the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number AVP MUS=
T
>>>>   be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>>>   control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the AVP
>>>>   is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is only
>>>>   required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>>>   Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>>>   sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>>>   related or correlated.
>>>>=20
>>>>   When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>>>   greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>>>   endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of the
>>>>   NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you are o=
ut  of sync (for whatever reason).
>>>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real 64-bit NT=
P  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the OLR was create=
d,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher than time of recepti=
on  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>=20
>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;
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>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.
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been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>=20
>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;
>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.
>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con=
fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez=
 recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messag=
es electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform=
e ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>=20
>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege=
d information that may be protected by law;
>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and=
 delete this message and its attachments.
>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>>=20
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From nobody Fri Feb 28 07:09:58 2014
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:09:52 +0000
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Dime] IETF 89: AAA tutorial on Sunday
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Dear all,

Here is a reminder, just in case:

    1500-1650 GMT Introduction to Authentication, Authorization and
    Accounting (AAA) management for distributed IP networks - Buckingham
    <http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/89/venue/?room=buckingham>

Regards, Benoit


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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    Here is a reminder, just in case:<br>
    <blockquote>1500-1650&nbsp;<span class="ietf-tiny">GMT</span>
      Introduction to Authentication, Authorization and Accounting (AAA)
      management for distributed IP networks - <a
        href="http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/89/venue/?room=buckingham">Buckingham</a><br>
    </blockquote>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <br>
  </body>
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--------------050008090706030309080605--


From nobody Fri Feb 28 07:14:29 2014
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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References: <066.f8b7ffcffcd55b9e56fa2bfc281d4649@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F24BC0.6070600@usdonovans.com> <29564_1391614624_52F25AA0_29564_1057_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487344@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2ACDC7E8-A46D-4618-92CE-B793AF3A8F75@nostrum.com> <29459_1391615624_52F25E88_29459_734_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4873CD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <29FCFFE7-64BF-4928-A3DF-F2FC0D1EFBC6@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B23D7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52F3AF0D.3050306@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B253C@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <855AE46B-9E69-452E-A8C7-9AA26019A4B4@gmail.com> <14044_1392040069_52F8D885_14044_469_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4975BB@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F8DB0C.3000603@usd onovans.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920977322F@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <0D5D9C6F-5233-4987-99C4-A257382917EC@gmail.com> <52FCB9D6.3070908@usdonovans.com> <2771A62F-E982-4A31-A827 -E2C4AC14132B@nostrum.com> <90D54457-ADE1-4A18-8F14-F8CA0D47EC56@gmail.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4F0F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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Uhh.. there was continuum to this thread. Sorry ;-) Let me come back to
this in a sec.

- Jouni

On Feb 28, 2014, at 5:07 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Dear Jouni,
> My understanding is that #32 is RESOLVED as follows:
>=20
> Agreed - Sequence-Number is of type Unsigned64.
>=20
> Agreed - When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than =
the sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it =
applies (including over reboot of that node).
> Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for the initial =
occurrence of an overload condition at a reporting node (where "initial =
occurrence means something like "moving from no overload to overload =
after a sufficiently long periode of no overload").=20
> When received, a sequence number is used to detect =
outdates/replays/freshness.
>=20
> Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting =
nodes.
>=20
> Can be CLOSED when the next version of the draft correctly reflects =
this agreement.
>=20
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 3:01 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org list; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); =
lionel.morand@orange.com Morand
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>=20
>=20
> <as a chair>
>=20
> It seems we reached a conclusion here. So summarizing:
>=20
> o Document that the sequence number is:
> - Globally/eternally unique.
> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.
> o Write a non-normative recommendation/suggestion how to create
>  sequence numbers fulfilling the above requirements (e.g. using
>  NTP as one component).
>=20
> @Ulrich or Lionel could you update the above into the ticket
> and close it?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - JOuni
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:28 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>=20
>> +1. It doesn't even have to be "suggested" in the since of a =
(non-normative) recommendation. It can merely be an example of an =
approach which meets the stated requirements.
>>=20
>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:25 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> Jouni,
>>>=20
>>> The important thing is to define the properties.  There should be no =
harm in giving one suggested implementation.
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>>>> If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally
>>>> and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP
>>>> then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less
>>>> mandatory reference..
>>>>=20
>>>> - Jouni
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome=20
>>>> <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> It sounds reasonable to me as well.
>>>>> /MCruz
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>>>>> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
>>>>> To:=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> +1
>>>>> On 2/10/14 7:47 AM,=20
>>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that =
the real requirements for the sequence-number are:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Globally/eternally unique
>>>>> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as =
remind by Steve)=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft =
on how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Lionel
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33
>>>>> =C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>>>> Cc :=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>>>>> reason to remember anything about it
>>>>> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
>>>>> on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
>>>>> "globally and eternally unique".
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Jouni
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)"=20
>>>>> <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to =
sync after OLR expiry.
>>>>> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
>>>>> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember =
anything about it and the next overload report received could, =
conceivably have any value.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ulrich
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
>>>>> To:=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A couple of things -=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically =
over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing =
this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time =
stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent =
after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for =
each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better =
properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll =
over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is =
not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence =
number server after each reboot.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us =
one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence =
number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires =
there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload =
report received could, conceivably have any value.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base =
Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be =
globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial =
differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the =
overload report.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use =
of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be =
worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id =
includes a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a =
recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined =
below ..."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>>>> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
>>>>> But I can see interoperability problems with the current =
definition:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
>>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
>>>>> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
>>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20=

>>>>> The receiver would accept
>>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
>>>>> and then silently discards
>>>>> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
>>>>> with no way to come back to sync.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender =
and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored =
value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to =
solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ulrich
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
>>>>> To: ext=20
>>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Cc:=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence =
number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop =
requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A =
time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but =
it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM,=20
>>>>> <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop =
requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
>>>>> We are not violating anything.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter =
interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any =
MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids =
interop issues.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : Ben Campbell [
>>>>> mailto:ben@nostrum.com
>>>>> ]=20
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
>>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>>> Cc : Steve Donovan;=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way =
to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an =
implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level =
requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where =
it is
>>>>> actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which =
has
>>>>> potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we =
expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would =
be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then =
add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a =
timestamp is a good way to do this.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM,=20
>>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use =
case to mandate a specific semantic.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if =
it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Lionel
>>>>>=20
>>>>> De : DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] De la part de Steve Donovan
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
>>>>> =C0 :=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation =
decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  =
That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>>>>> I also agree.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Nirav.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>>>>> To:=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>>>>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of =
this sequence-number.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Lionel
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>>>> ]
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
>>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>>> Cc :=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>>>>  =46rom the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number =
AVP MUST
>>>>>  be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>>>>  control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the =
AVP
>>>>>  is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is =
only
>>>>>  required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>>>>  Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>>>>  sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>>>>  related or correlated.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>>>>  greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>>>>  endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of =
the
>>>>>  NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you =
are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>>>>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real =
64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the =
OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher =
than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>>>=20
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confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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>>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
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>>>>>=20
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privileged information that may be protected by law;
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>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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Going back in history..

On Feb 19, 2014, at 5:33 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
> I understand that we agreed the following principles:
> =20
> Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not correspond =
to the point in time of generation.
> =20
> When generated, a new sequence number must be  greater than any =
sequence number previously generated by the same node (including over a =
reboot of that node)
> =20
> When received, a sequence number is used to detect =
outdates/replays/freshness.
> =20
> Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting =
nodes.
> =20
> =20
> I did not understand the requirement for globally uniqueness as =
introduced by Jouni.
> Can Jouni please explain.

Originated from here:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dime/current/msg06600.html

So requiring global uniqueness is not desired anymore?=20

- Jouni



> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
To: ext Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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I think so; not required, not desired.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 4:30 PM
To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
Cc: dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status


Going back in history..

On Feb 19, 2014, at 5:33 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wieh=
e@nsn.com> wrote:

> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
> =20
> I understand that we agreed the following principles:
> =20
> Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not correspond to=
 the point in time of generation.
> =20
> When generated, a new sequence number must be  greater than any sequence =
number previously generated by the same node (including over a reboot of th=
at node)
> =20
> When received, a sequence number is used to detect outdates/replays/fresh=
ness.
> =20
> Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting nodes=
.
> =20
> =20
> I did not understand the requirement for globally uniqueness as introduce=
d by Jouni.
> Can Jouni please explain.

Originated from here:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dime/current/msg06600.html

So requiring global uniqueness is not desired anymore?=20

- Jouni



> =20
> Ulrich
> =20
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4F0F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
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References: <066.f8b7ffcffcd55b9e56fa2bfc281d4649@trac.tools.ietf.org> <52F24BC0.6070600@usdonovans.com> <29564_1391614624_52F25AA0_29564_1057_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E487344@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2ACDC7E8-A46D-4618-92CE-B793AF3A8F75@nostrum.com> <29459_1391615624_52F25E88_29459_734_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4873CD@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <29FCFFE7-64BF-4928-A3DF-F2FC0D1EFBC6@nostrum.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B23D7@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <52F3AF0D.3050306@usdonovans.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B253C@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net> <855AE46B-9E69-452E-A8C7-9AA26019A4B4@gmail.com> <14044_1392040069_52F8D885_14044_469_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E4975BB@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <52F8DB0C.3000603@usd onovans.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B920977322F@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se> <0D5D9C6F-5233-4987-99C4-A257382917EC@gmail.com> <52FCB9D6.3070908@usdonovans.com> <2771A62F-E982-4A31-A827 -E2C4AC14132B@nostrum.com> <90D54457-ADE1-4A18-8F14-F8CA0D47EC56@gmail.com> <5BCBA1FC2B7F0B4C9D935572D9000668151B4F0F@DEMUMBX014.nsn-intra.net>
To: "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime]	#32:	Sequence-Number	Time-Stamp	values	within OC-OLR
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First.. sorry for missing the continuum of the thread. My _bad_ mistake.


On Feb 28, 2014, at 5:07 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> Dear Jouni,
> My understanding is that #32 is RESOLVED as follows:
>=20
> Agreed - Sequence-Number is of type Unsigned64.

This is/was ok, since time did not really fit anymore what was concluded =
even earlier.
=20
> Agreed - When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than =
the sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it =
applies (including over reboot of that node).

Ok.

> Note: this allows sequence numbers to start at 1 for the initial =
occurrence of an overload condition at a reporting node (where "initial =
occurrence means something like "moving from no overload to overload =
after a sufficiently long periode of no overload").=20
> When received, a sequence number is used to detect =
outdates/replays/freshness.
>=20
> Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting =
nodes.

Ok.

>=20
> Can be CLOSED when the next version of the draft correctly reflects =
this agreement.

Different practises. In some groups we did close tickets once the =
proposed
change & conclusion was documented in the issue tracker.

One should still update the ticket to contain the conclusion even before
closing it. There is a place for comments. Makes it much easier to track
down the conclusions. (as seen here how easily one misses even a thread
of mails..)

- Jouni

>=20
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 3:01 PM
> To: dime@ietf.org list; Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich); =
lionel.morand@orange.com Morand
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>=20
>=20
> <as a chair>
>=20
> It seems we reached a conclusion here. So summarizing:
>=20
> o Document that the sequence number is:
> - Globally/eternally unique.
> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot.
> o Write a non-normative recommendation/suggestion how to create
>  sequence numbers fulfilling the above requirements (e.g. using
>  NTP as one component).
>=20
> @Ulrich or Lionel could you update the above into the ticket
> and close it?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - JOuni
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:28 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>=20
>> +1. It doesn't even have to be "suggested" in the since of a =
(non-normative) recommendation. It can merely be an example of an =
approach which meets the stated requirements.
>>=20
>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:25 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> Jouni,
>>>=20
>>> The important thing is to define the properties.  There should be no =
harm in giving one suggested implementation.
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>=20
>>> On 2/11/14 4:42 PM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>>>> If the NTP is only going to be guidance when building the globally
>>>> and eternally unique sequence number, IMHO better not mention NTP
>>>> then at all. Just include the required properties below. One less
>>>> mandatory reference..
>>>>=20
>>>> - Jouni
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Maria Cruz Bartolome=20
>>>> <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> It sounds reasonable to me as well.
>>>>> /MCruz
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>>>>> Sent: lunes, 10 de febrero de 2014 14:59
>>>>> To:=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> +1
>>>>> On 2/10/14 7:47 AM,=20
>>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I would add, maybe even before the format (NTP time based), that =
the real requirements for the sequence-number are:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Globally/eternally unique
>>>>> - increase monotonically over time, including over a reboot (as =
remind by Steve)=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The NTP time based type is just a guidance provided by the draft =
on how to generate sequence numbers with such properties.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Lionel
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] De la part de Jouni Korhonen
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : samedi 8 f=E9vrier 2014 11:33
>>>>> =C0 : Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
>>>>> Cc :=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sounds acceptable. Would the following then work for all:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> o clarify that once the overload report expires there is no
>>>>> reason to remember anything about it
>>>>> o the sequence number would be similar to session-id.. based=20
>>>>> on the NTP time + any vendor specific data to make it=20
>>>>> "globally and eternally unique".
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Jouni
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 7, 2014, at 1:00 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)"=20
>>>>> <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> sounds like an acceptable proposal which allows to come back to =
sync after OLR expiry.
>>>>> This requires however an update of clause 5.5.2 to clearly state
>>>>> Once the overload report expires there is no reason to remember =
anything about it and the next overload report received could, =
conceivably have any value.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ulrich
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:50 PM
>>>>> To:=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A couple of things -=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The requirement is that the sequence number increase monotonically =
over time, including over a reboot.  Use of NTP time is one way of doing =
this but is not the only way.  Someone could, for instance, use a time =
stamp to set the sequence number for the first overload report sent =
after a reboot and then increment the sequence number value by one for =
each subsequent overload report sent.  This actually has better =
properties than an NTP time stamp as it would take much longer to roll =
over.  One could also create a global sequence number service that is =
not tied to time and have a Diameter server query that global sequence =
number server after each reboot.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We also have a duration timer on overload reports.  This gives us =
one way to reset.  It should only be required to remember the sequence =
number of an active overload report.  Once the overload report expires =
there is no reason to remember anything about it and the next overload =
report received could, conceivably have any value.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The requirement we need is similar to the session-id in the base =
Diameter specification.  The wording there is -- "The Session-Id MUST be =
globally and eternally unique".  We just need eternally as the spacial =
differentiation is based on the context of the message carrying the =
overload report.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It would be perfectly valid for the DOIC draft to suggest the use =
of NTP timestamps to populate the sequence number but it should be =
worded in a similar fashion as the Diameter base RFC -- The Session-Id =
includes a mandatory portion and an implementation-defined portion; a =
recommended format for the implementation-defined portion is outlined =
below ..."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 2/6/14 7:12 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>>>>> I cannot understand what is the problem with mandating timestamp.
>>>>> But I can see interoperability problems with the current =
definition:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Assume the sender sends sequence numbers
>>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 3, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20
>>>>> but the receicer for any reason receives=20
>>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000, 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....=20=

>>>>> The receiver would accept
>>>>> 1, 1, ... 1, 2, 2, ... 2, 3, 30000
>>>>> and then silently discards
>>>>> 3,  ... 3, 4, 4, ... 4, 5,....  4, 5, ....=20
>>>>> with no way to come back to sync.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Are we sure that this cannot happen?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Mandating timestamp for sequence number generation at the sender =
and plausibility checking (i.e. received value must be between stored =
value and time of reception) for the receiver may not be the only way to =
solve the problem. But in the moment I don't see another way.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ulrich
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] On Behalf Of ext Ben Campbell
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 4:57 PM
>>>>> To: ext=20
>>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Cc:=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> My point is, we have an interop requirement that the sequence =
number always increases over time scope. We do not have the interop =
requirement that the sequence number be implemented as a time stamp. A =
time stamp is probably a good way to  meet the interop requirements, but =
it is not, in itself, an interop requirement.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:53 AM,=20
>>>>> <lionel.morand@orange.com> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Not sure to understand: if there is a kind of "interop =
requirement", it is a case for a "MUST".
>>>>> We are not violating anything.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Reporting and reacting nodes will just rely on the Diameter =
interfaces to know how to handle the received sequence-number. So any =
MUST on the format of the sequence-number is acceptable if it avoids =
interop issues.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : Ben Campbell [
>>>>> mailto:ben@nostrum.com
>>>>> ]=20
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 16:47
>>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>>> Cc : Steve Donovan;=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I concur with Steve on this one. Using a time stamp is a good way =
to meet the requirements, but it's not our job to normatively state an =
implementation. In fact, it violates an RFC 2119 "MUST" level =
requirement to do so. Section 6 of 2119 includes the following:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> "In particular, [normative requirements] MUST only be used where =
it is
>>>>> actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which =
has
>>>>> potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  "
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The only appropriate reason to require a timestamp would be if we =
expected peers to interpret the field as a point in time. OTOH, it would =
be perfectly reasonable to state the actual interop requirements, then =
add a non-normative (probably indented) paragraph suggesting that a =
timestamp is a good way to do this.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:37 AM,=20
>>>>> lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think the out-of-sync failover described by Ulrich is a good use =
case to mandate a specific semantic.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Is there any specific NOT to mandate the use of NTP timestamps if =
it is a simple way to solve the possible issues and please everyone?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Lionel
>>>>>=20
>>>>> De : DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> ] De la part de Steve Donovan
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 5 f=E9vrier 2014 15:34
>>>>> =C0 :=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> How the sequence number is implemented is an implementation =
decision.  There is no reason to mandate that is be an NTP timestamp.  =
That should be included only as one way of addressing the requirement.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 2/4/14 10:27 PM, Nirav Salot (nsalot) wrote:
>>>>> I also agree.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Nirav.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: DiME [
>>>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 11:50 PM
>>>>> To:=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values =
within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The existing wording seems actually fuzzy.
>>>>> If it is "like an NTP timestamp", be proud and say it loud!
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In summary: ok with the proposal if it clarifies this handling of =
this sequence-number.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Lionel
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : dime issue tracker [
>>>>> mailto:trac+dime@trac.tools.ietf.org
>>>>> ]
>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 f=E9vrier 2014 09:50
>>>>> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
>>>>> Cc :=20
>>>>> dime@ietf.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Objet : [dime] #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within =
OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The -01 draft says in clause 4.4:
>>>>>  =46rom the functionality point of view, the OC-Sequence-Number =
AVP MUST
>>>>>  be used as a non-volatile increasing counter between two overload
>>>>>  control endpoints (neglecting the fact that the contents of the =
AVP
>>>>>  is a 64-bit NTP timestamp [RFC5905]).  The sequence number is =
only
>>>>>  required to be unique between two overload control endpoints.
>>>>>  Sequence numbers are treated in uni-directional manner, i.e. two
>>>>>  sequence numbers on each direction between two endpoints are not
>>>>>  related or correlated.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  When generating sequence numbers, the new sequence number MUST be
>>>>>  greater than any sequence number previously seen between two
>>>>>  endpoints within a time window that tolerates the wraparound of =
the
>>>>>  NTP timestamp (i.e. approximately 68 years).
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> With this mechanism it is difficult to get back to sync once you =
are out  of sync (for whatever reason).
>>>>> It is proposed to mandate that the Sequence Number is a real =
64-bit NTP  timestamp (RFC5905) indicating the point in time when the =
OLR was created,  and to mandate that  OLRs with a time stamp higher =
than time of reception  must be ignored by the reacting node.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
>>>>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous =
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
>>>>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
>>>>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
>>>>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
>>>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>=20
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>=20
>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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Ok.

On Feb 28, 2014, at 5:37 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:

> I think so; not required, not desired.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Jouni Korhonen [mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 4:30 PM
> To: Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
>=20
>=20
> Going back in history..
>=20
> On Feb 19, 2014, at 5:33 PM, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" =
<ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com> wrote:
>=20
>> #32: Sequence-Number Time-Stamp values within OC-OLR
>>=20
>> I understand that we agreed the following principles:
>>=20
>> Sequence-Number is of type Time, however the value need not =
correspond to the point in time of generation.
>>=20
>> When generated, a new sequence number must be  greater than any =
sequence number previously generated by the same node (including over a =
reboot of that node)
>>=20
>> When received, a sequence number is used to detect =
outdates/replays/freshness.
>>=20
>> Sequence numbers of expired OLRs MUST NOT be remembered by reacting =
nodes.
>>=20
>>=20
>> I did not understand the requirement for globally uniqueness as =
introduced by Jouni.
>> Can Jouni please explain.
>=20
> Originated from here:
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dime/current/msg06600.html
>=20
> So requiring global uniqueness is not desired anymore?=20
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Ulrich
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
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Steve,

Optimization as having the optional OC-Report-Type and when not present
using the default value. This was there to reduce the amount of =
transported
AVPs.

- JOuni

On Feb 13, 2014, at 2:46 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Jouni,
>=20
> Which optimization, defining a default value or Lionel's proposal to =
make it a required AVP?
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/13/14 6:05 AM, Jouni Korhonen wrote:
>> Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there
>> because at the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry
>> on every extra AVP ;-)
>>=20
>> I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value
>> just like it is now. We have the same for the reduction
>> percentage and the validity time as well.
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)"=20=

>> <jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Hi Mcruz
>>>=20
>>> The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is =
of type Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference.=20
>>> We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where =
statistically the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped =
OLR-AVP containing a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a =
small optimization.
>>>=20
>>> Best regards
>>>=20
>>> JJacques=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de lionel.morand@orange.com
>>>=20
>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:46
>>> =C0 :=20
>>> dime@ietf.org; maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com
>>>=20
>>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>>=20
>>> Hi Maria Cruz,
>>>=20
>>> I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?
>>>=20
>>> So instead of:
>>>=20
>>>   OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>>              < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>>              [ OC-Report-Type ]
>>>              [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>>              [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>>            * [ AVP ]
>>>=20
>>> You would prefer:
>>>=20
>>>   OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>>              < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>>              { OC-Report-Type }
>>>              [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>>              [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>>            * [ AVP ]
>>>=20
>>> And I'm fine with this proposal.
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>>=20
>>> Lionel
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : DiME [
>>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue tracker =
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:26 =C0 : =
maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com Cc : dime@ietf.org
>>>  Objet : [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>>=20
>>> #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>>=20
>>> Now in chapter 4.6:
>>>=20
>>>    The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
>>>    report).
>>>=20
>>> This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise =
that  we define this AVP as mandatory.
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> =
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
>>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>> Reporter: =20
>>> maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com
>>>   |      Owner:  MCruz
>>>     Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
>>> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>>> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>>>                                               |   Keywords:
>>> =
-----------------------------------------------+------------------------
>>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>>=20
>>> Ticket URL:=20
>>> <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
>>>=20
>>> dime=20
>>> <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>>=20
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>>>=20
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les =
pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>=20
>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
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distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
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and delete this message and its attachments.
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>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>=20
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>=20
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>> _______________________________________________
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>>=20
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
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>>=20
>>=20
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References: <075.72da31b401c033905a4fb81d09a8b4aa@trac.tools.ietf.org> <7077_1392216348_52FB891B_7077_4146_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E49E1A4@PEXCVZYM13.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D2026649A3@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <EE7D3FEB-CD2A-45D9-9700-5CCA118D9A14@gmail.com> <546C1F19-2B53-4054-9C26-DDE6D0DF3C9F@nostrum.com> <087A34937E64E74E848732CFF8354B92097840F1@ESESSMB101.ericsson.se>
To: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
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Hi,

How having the AVP could be less error prone if it has a default
value and the receiver knows exactly how to proceed when the AVP
is not present?

If a node does not include it when it should, the implementation
is broken. Wouldn't a broken node be able to put wrong report
type into the AVP even if the AVP is mandatory?

Anyway, if it is my statement keeping issue #54 still open, consider
it resolved from my side. I am OK making the OC-Report-Type AVP as
required/mandatory AVP. Should we also consider it having a fixed
position just after the OC-Sequence-Number AVP as well since it is
going to in every OC-OLR?

- Jouni



On Feb 21, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome =
<maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com> wrote:

>=20
> Hello all,
>=20
> I understand JJ point of view, but I still tend to prefer to make it =
mandatory, since I think this is less error-prone, since the only node =
that knows the requested Report-Type is the reporting, if for any reason =
a reporting is omitting it (since it is optional), it will be always =
interpreted as HOST, but this type may be wrong.
>=20
> I think DEFAULT values should never be error-prone, but used in =
"general cases", as a simplification, like e.g. a default for the =
Validity-Duration. Default Validity-Duration will never be an "error", =
it could be not the best value (compared with another value perfectly =
tuned to reporting node overload situation) but never the use of a =
Default value should lead to an erroneous behavior.
>=20
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell
> Sent: viernes, 14 de febrero de 2014 23:13
> To: Jouni Korhonen
> Cc: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>=20
> I actually prefer making it mandatory. The cost of adding it is =
trivial--even more so for a reporting node that only supports the =
default. The value of having it is less opportunity for interop errors.
>=20
> On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:05 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Agree that it is a small optimization, which I put there because at=20=

>> the beginning there seemed to be a lot of worry on every extra AVP =
;-)
>>=20
>> I prefer having the AVP optional but with a default value just like =
it=20
>> is now. We have the same for the reduction percentage and the =
validity=20
>> time as well.
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>> On Feb 13, 2014, at 10:55 AM, "TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES)" =
<jean-jacques.trottin@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi Mcruz
>>>=20
>>> The current description indicates that when not present the OLR is =
of type Host, which was fine for me and keeps my preference.=20
>>> We may have  deployments where Realm OLR is not used, or where =
statistically the HOST type is the most frequent, so to have the grouped =
OLR-AVP containing a minimum of AVPs minimizes parsing. I agree it is a =
small optimization.
>>>=20
>>> Best regards
>>>=20
>>> JJacques
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de=20
>>> lionel.morand@orange.com Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:46 =
=C0 :=20
>>> dime@ietf.org; maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com Objet : Re: [Dime]=20=

>>> [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>>=20
>>> Hi Maria Cruz,
>>>=20
>>> I'm assuming that you mean "required" instead of "mandatory", right?
>>>=20
>>> So instead of:
>>>=20
>>> OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>>            < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>>            [ OC-Report-Type ]
>>>            [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>>            [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>>          * [ AVP ]
>>>=20
>>> You would prefer:
>>>=20
>>> OC-OLR ::=3D < AVP Header: TBD2 >
>>>            < OC-Sequence-Number >
>>>            { OC-Report-Type }
>>>            [ OC-Reduction-Percentage ]
>>>            [ OC-Validity-Duration ]
>>>          * [ AVP ]
>>>=20
>>> And I'm fine with this proposal.
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>>=20
>>> Lionel
>>>=20
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de dime issue=20
>>> tracker Envoy=E9 : mercredi 12 f=E9vrier 2014 15:26 =C0 :=20
>>> maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com Cc : dime@ietf.org Objet : [Dime]=20=

>>> [dime] #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>>=20
>>> #54: OC-Report-Type as mandatory AVP
>>>=20
>>> Now in chapter 4.6:
>>>=20
>>>  The default value of the OC-Report-Type AVP is 0 (i.e. the host
>>>  report).
>>>=20
>>> This AVP is always required, right? Then, I think it is more precise =
that  we define this AVP as mandatory.
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> =
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>> Reporter:  maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com  |      Owner:  MCruz
>>>   Type:  defect                             |  Bartolom=E9
>>> Priority:  major                              |     Status:  new
>>> Component:  draft-docdt-dime-ovli              |  Milestone:
>>> Severity:  Active WG Document                 |    Version:  1.0
>>>                                             |   Keywords:
>>> =
-----------------------------------------------+---------------------
>>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>> -----------------------------------------------+---
>>>=20
>>> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/trac/ticket/54>
>>> dime <http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dime/>
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>> =
_____________________________________________________________________
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>=20
>>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
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exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
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pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>>>=20
>>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
>>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender =
and delete this message and its attachments.
>>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that =
have been modified, changed or falsified.
>>> Thank you.
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ticket #27 - Behavior of agent acting on behalf of Client that does not support DOIC
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Ben,

On Feb 25, 2014, at 1:11 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

>=20
> On Feb 24, 2014, at 12:40 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> There has been no discussion of ticket #27.  I can't even find it on =
the DIME list, so I'm copying it here to initiate discussion.
>>=20
>> The proposal is for an agent to send a TOO-BUSY response when it =
throttles a request from a non supporting client.  The behavior of the =
agent in this case would be in the new section to be added to capture =
agent behavior as proposed in issue #24 (and various other places).
>>=20
>=20
> RFC6733 has the following to say about TOO_BUSY
>=20
> "When returned, a Diameter node SHOULD attempt to send the message to =
an alternate peer.  This error MUST only be used when a specific server =
is requested, and it cannot provide the requested saervice."

"when a specific server is requested" means the use of Destination-Host =
to me.

> Do those semantics and limitations apply to this usage? Is there a =
chance if incorrect behavior from a client that doesn't support DOIC, =
and therefore is not aware of this new usage of TOO_BUSY? For example, =
if an agent sends TOO_BUSY due due to a host OLR received from the an =
upstream server, the client might (actually SHOULD) try to reach that =
same server via an alternate agent. Is that okay?

I would say this could be a desired behaviour but I am not sure
whether it is okay. DIAMETER_TOO_BUSY is a protocol error, which
means an error-answer, which again probably is completely different
what the server sent (in the above example). Although this is allowed
(see the usage of Error-Reporting-Host AVP) but then RFC 6733 Section
6.2.2. MUST on sending STR to the server does not really fit our use
case.

A client knows from the Origin-Host & Error-Reporting-Host whether the
error came from the final destination or from an intermediate. It can
reason based that whether it needs to find a new server or just an
alternate path.

> I'm not sure I understand the original intent of the MUST only =
sentence. But the only way I know of to request a specific server is to =
use D-H. So would we allow the sending of a TOO_BUSY in response to a =
realm-routed request?

I would think twice updates to RFC6733. But if seen necessary,
I would do that in a separate I-D.

- Jouni


>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior
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I am ok with the proposed wording here.

- Jouni


On Feb 24, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Lionel,
>=20
> I believe that Ben's issue was with the following wording in section =
4.3=20
>=20
> =20
>    The Sequence-Number AVP indicates the "freshness" of the OC-OLR =
AVP.
>    It is possible to replay the same OC-OLR AVP multiple times between
>    the overload control endpoints, however, when the OC-OLR AVP =
content
>    changes or sending endpoint otherwise wants the receiving endpoint =
to
>    update its overload control information, then the =
OC-Sequence-Number
>    AVP MUST contain a new greater value than the previously received.
>    The receiver SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number =
that
>    is less than previously received one.
>=20
>=20
> The wording you reference is in section 5.5.2.
>=20
> The above wording can be improved by changing the last sentence to =
"The reacting node SHOULD discard an OC-OLR AVP with a sequence number =
that is less than or equal to the previously received sequence number."
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/8/14 10:53 AM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
>> Hi Ben,
>>=20
>> The case "equal" is discussed in the previous sentence.
>>=20
>> Check the following:
>>=20
>>    The received OC-Supported-Features AVP does not change the =
existing
>>    overload condition and/or traffic abatement algorithm settings if =
the
>>    OC-Sequence-Number AVP contains a value that is equal to the
>>    previously received/recorded one.  If the OC-Supported-Features =
AVP
>>    is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
>>    Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
>>    recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then =
either
>>    the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
>>    replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.
>>=20
>> The first sentence implies that the received OLR is ignored.=20
>>=20
>> And actually, there is something wrong in the last sentence. At the =
end,=20
>>=20
>>    recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then =
either
>>    the sequence number is stale or replay (e.g. an intentional or =
unintentional
>>    replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.
>>=20
>> The "either" in the first line should be removed.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : DiME [
>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>> ] De la part de dime issue tracker
>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 7 f=E9vrier 2014 22:49
>> =C0 :=20
>> draft-docdt-dime-ovli@tools.ietf.org; ben@nostrum.com
>>=20
>> Cc :=20
>> dime@ietf.org
>>=20
>> Objet : [Dime] [dime] #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior
>>=20
>> #44: Incorrect sequence number behavior
>>=20
>>  section 4.3 says that the receiver should discard an OLR with a =
sequence
>>  number less than the most recent. That should be less than or equal.
>>  Technically, re-applying the same OLR should make no difference, but =
it's
>>  never needed, and could be error prone if the sender screwed =
something up.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 20:21:41 +0200
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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich)" <ulrich.wiehe@nsn.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
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A question.. how much is "a sufficiently long period of no overload"?
I'd like to see some guidance or minimum values documented.

- Jouni


On Feb 25, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> Ulrich,
>=20
> Yes, with that period being long enough for the reporting node to be =
confident that all previously sent overload reports have expired.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/25/14 10:21 AM, Wiehe, Ulrich (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>> Steve, Ben,
>>=20
>> for my clarification, your proposal is to say
>>=20
>> ***
>> Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.
>>=20
>> When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the =
sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it =
applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows =
sequence numbers to start at 1 for the initial occurrence of an overload =
condition at a reporting node.
>> ***
>>=20
>> If so, what is meant by "initial occurrence of an overload =
condition"?
>>=20
>> I guess it means something like moving from no overload to overload =
after a sufficiently long periode of no overload
>>=20
>> Please clarify
>>=20
>> Ulrich
>>=20
>>=20
>> From: DiME [
>> mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org
>> ] On Behalf Of ext Steve Donovan
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:02 PM
>> To: Ben Campbell
>> Cc:=20
>> dime@ietf.org
>>  list
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] Issue#32 status
>>=20
>> I agree with the suggested change.
>>=20
>> Steve
>> On 2/24/14 5:00 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> + 1, except as noted:
>>=20
>> On Feb 24, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Steve Donovan=20
>> <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>> Ulrich,
>>=20
>> Would you agree to the following to replace the first two statements:
>>=20
>> Sequence number is of type Unsigned64.
>>=20
>> When generated, a new sequence number must be greater than the =
sequence number contained in the active overload report to which it =
applies (including over reboot of that node).  Note: this allows =
sequence numbers to start at 1 for any occurrence of overload at a =
reporting node.  This, I think, allows us to ignore wraparound issues as =
wraparound will never happen.  Unless we are worried about a server =
staying in overload for billions of years (assuming reports with a ten =
minute validity period refreshed every five minutes).
>>=20
>> s/ any occurrence of overload / the initial occurrence of an overload =
condition
>>=20
>>=20
>> The other two statements are good.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
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Cc: "dime@ietf.org list" <dime@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
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Taking #29 agreed part also into account some proposed text to 5.5.2:


OLD:
   The received OC-Supported-Features AVP does not change the existing
   overload condition and/or traffic abatement algorithm settings if the
   OC-Sequence-Number AVP contains a value that is equal to the
   previously received/recorded one.  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP
   is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
   Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
   recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then either
   the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or unintentional
   replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.

   The OC-OLR AVP contains the necessary information of the overload
   condition on the reporting node.  Similarly to the OC-Supported-
   Features's sequence numbering, the OC-OLR AVP also has the OC-
   Sequence-Number AVP and its handling is similar to the one in the OC-
   Supported-Features AVP.  The reacting node MUST update its overload
   condition state whenever receiving the OC-OLR AVP for the first time
   or the OC-Sequence-Number sub-AVP indicates a change in the OC-OLR
   AVP.
NEW:
   The received OC-Supported-Features AVP does not change the existing
   traffic abatement algorithm settings if the AVP contains a value that
   is equal to the previously received/recorded one.

- Jouni


On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:06 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:

> There is still an issue with the text Maria Cruz points out.  This =
part -- If the OC-Supported-Features AVP is received for the first time =
for the reporting node -- is erroneous and should be removed from the =
sentence.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 2/21/14 11:24 AM, TROTTIN, JEAN-JACQUES (JEAN-JACQUES) wrote:
>> Hi MCruz
>> =20
>> The text  you propose to remove deals with the Seq number within  =
OC-Supported features, because of duplication with another text, but =
this other text text relates to the seq number handling within the =
OC-OLR AVP.
>> I think we can keep two texts, one for the seq number  within =
OC-Supported features  and another one for  the seq number  within =
OC-OLR AVP,. We will then see how the text  for seq number  within =
OC-Supported features evolves with the #29  outputs.
>> =20
>> Best regards
>> =20
>> JJacques =20
>> =20
>> De : DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Maria Cruz =
Bartolome
>> Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 f=E9vrier 2014 16:42
>> =C0 : dime@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
>> =20
>> Steve,
>> =20
>> Extracted text is duplicated now, this paragraph I referred is simply =
wrong.
>> But I agree duplicated text should be revised due to issue#29, but =
this is up to this ticket to provide the alternative text.
>> =20
>> Cheers
>> /MCruz
>> =20
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
>> Sent: viernes, 21 de febrero de 2014 16:33
>> To: dime@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] [dime] #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo? - conclusion
>> =20
>> Maria Cruz,
>>=20
>> I think we need to see the replacement text before concluding this =
ticket.
>>=20
>> Steve
>>=20
>> On 2/21/14 2:51 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
>> =20
>> #53: 5.5.2 chapter typo?
>> =20
>> Following text will be deleted:
>> =20
>>     .........  If the OC-Supported-Features AVP
>>     is received for the first time for the reporting node or the OC-
>>     Sequence-Number AVP value is less than the previously received/
>>     recorded one (and is outside the valid overflow window), then =
either
>>     the sequence number is stale (e.g. an intentional or =
unintentional
>>     replay) and SHOULD be silently discarded.
>> =20
>>  As long as, the situations that it refers are covered later in the =
same chapter.
>> =20
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>>=20
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime

