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From: "Alissa Cooper" <alissa@cooperw.in>
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Subject: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss

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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Given the two key security threats identified in Section 11 -- that
authorized nodes can issue requests with artificially high priority in
order to get better treatment, and that unauthorized intermediaries can
modify the priorities that senders set -- I don't see how it is
legitimate to claim that either 5.1 or 5.2 are appropriate use cases for
DRMP. The spec seems to assume that this mechanism will only be used in
scenarios where nodes and agents have some out-of-band trust relationship
established with each other (the shepherd write-up talks about a "trusted
environment"), but that is certainly not the case in many disaster and
emergency scenarios. If that really is a limitation on the scope of
applicability of this mechanism, that should be stated in the document,
and those use cases should either be removed or modified to explain the
limitations on their applicability.  

(2) Section 6 says:

	   "The mechanism for how the agent determines which requests are
       throttled is implementation dependent and is outside the scope of
       this document."

How is a node supposed to determine how to set its priorities if each
agent makes implementation-specific decisions about what those priorities
mean? I understood the document to be saying that Diameter applications
would have to define what he priority levels mean within their own
contexts, but then I would have expected the interpretation of priorities
amongst all nodes and agents implementing the same application to be the
same. 

(3) Section 8 says: 

	"Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
value."
   
If the determination of the priority schemes are all
application-specific, how is it appropriate for this spec to define what
the default priority should be for all applications? Shouldn't
applications specify their own defaults?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 11 says: "DRMP gives Diameter nodes the ability to influence
which requests are throttled during overload scenarios." But the
information is not limited to use during overload scenarios, and the spec
specifically allows its use for prioritized routing in absence of
overload. This should be stated here too.



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From nobody Tue May  3 19:31:27 2016
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Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss

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introductory paragraph, however.)


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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a few concerns that I think need some discussion. 

1) Priority between applications: The fact that agents can apply priority
for messages from multiple applications without knowledge of those
applications seems dangerous. Let's say application A is a critical
infrastructure application, and application B is not. But clients for
application B might set requests to have a higher priority than do
clients for application A.  Further, application B could become a DoS
vector for application A. One potential (and likely half-baked) way to
mitigate this would be to say that nodes that are not "application aware"
can only apply priority among messages for the same application.

2) Priority between clients of the same application: If you have multiple
clients for the same application, don't they need to use the same
prioritization strategy? How is this to be managed?

3) Out of order requests: The draft explicitly allows agents to re-route
and even explicitly re-order messages. Is it safe to have a
non-application aware node change the order of messages?

4) I am nervous about the idea that clients and servers would use a
generic message priority mechanism to manage the allocation of resources
that result from a requests and answers. It seems like that should be
based on application specific rules and information. (Now, if the point
is that these same AVPs might be used in an application according to
application specific rules, that might be okay--but then you might run
into issues where application-agnostic agents don't know the difference.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

General: I approached this assuming prioritization would matter only in
overload scenarios. But I gather you envision using this in non-overload
scenarios? (This interacts with my discuss point about the use of DRMP to
prioritize resource allocation that result result from successful
diameter transactions.) Use case 5.3 is a bit worrisome in this context.


-6, list item 4: Are there really use cases for answer senders to set a
different priority on the answer than was on the request? That seems to
add quite a bit of complexity.

- 6, list item 8: I'm not sure what it means for a client to prioritize
answers to it's own requests.

-8,  "Diameter nodes SHOULD
   include Diameter routing message priority in the DRMP AVP in all
   Diameter request messages." : 
Does that apply to all nodes that touch a request, or just the request
originator?

-- "Diameter nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP
carried in the answer message, if it exists."
The MUST seems odd, since paying attention to the priority in the initial
request was only SHOULD. 

-- "Another is to use the Proxy-Info
      mechanism defined in [RFC6733].":
That probably needs some elaboration.



From nobody Tue May  3 23:47:53 2016
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Hi Alissa,

> On 3 May 2016, at 22:31, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
>=20
> (3) Section 8 says:=20
>=20
>    "Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
> value."
>=20
> If the determination of the priority schemes are all
> application-specific, how is it appropriate for this spec to define what
> the default priority should be for all applications? Shouldn't
> applications specify their own defaults?

I think it is perfectly acceptable for this spec to recommend a default in t=
he middle of the allowed range. I read this as a requirement on application p=
olicies. I think it would be bad if different applications pick different va=
lues as the default, as this would be confusing to implementors and deployer=
s.




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--_000_E194C2E18676714DACA9C3A2516265D29D4ED182FR712WXCHMBA12z_--


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Mirja KÃ¼hlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss

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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I fully agree with all discuss comments made by Ben and Alissa. However,
the summary here might be that this information might simply be not very
useful for the uses cases described. And there might be other mechanisms
that do not require any trust and that can address the uses cases easier
and more appropriate such a simply prioritization of a certain
application in the request handler/request agent or relative priorities
within one application (on sent-out). 

However, the one part that does actually concern me is:
"When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
   default priority for transactions that do not have priority specified
   in a DRMP AVP."
This part seems dangerous and I would proposed to instead basically have
to different queues: one if a priority is defined and another one for
requests without priority indication to make sure that requests out of
the second queue will be served at some point in time and cannot be
starved by other low priority requests completely.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you need 15 different priority levels? Wouldn't be two enough for
all or your use cases?



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Hi Mirja,

> On 4 May 2016, at 12:13, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>=20
> However, the one part that does actually concern me is:
> "When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
>   default priority for transactions that do not have priority specified
>   in a DRMP AVP."
> This part seems dangerous and I would proposed to instead basically have
> to different queues: one if a priority is defined and another one for
> requests without priority indication to make sure that requests out of
> the second queue will be served at some point in time and cannot be
> starved by other low priority requests completely.

I think I disagree with you: default priority handling is orthogonal to the n=
umber of queues used. Some implementations would use one queue per priority,=
 so you are effectively suggesting that no priority is treated as its own pr=
iority. I think this is an implementation detail.



From nobody Wed May  4 04:46:05 2016
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Hi Alexey,


> Am 04.05.2016 um 13:37 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,
>=20
>> On 4 May 2016, at 12:13, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> However, the one part that does actually concern me is:
>> "When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
>>  default priority for transactions that do not have priority =
specified
>>  in a DRMP AVP."
>> This part seems dangerous and I would proposed to instead basically =
have
>> to different queues: one if a priority is defined and another one for
>> requests without priority indication to make sure that requests out =
of
>> the second queue will be served at some point in time and cannot be
>> starved by other low priority requests completely.
>=20
> I think I disagree with you: default priority handling is orthogonal =
to the number of queues used. Some implementations would use one queue =
per priority, so you are effectively suggesting that no priority is =
treated as its own priority. I think this is an implementation detail.
>=20
>=20
Yes, queues are implementation details. That was just meant as an =
illustration. My point it, I don=E2=80=99t think all requests without =
priority should get an default priority assigned (and especially not a =
very low priority). Further it has to be ensured that requests that =
don=E2=80=99t assign a priority do not get starved (as they might be =
important).

Mirja



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Hi Mirja,

On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 12:45 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Hi Alexey,
>=20
>=20
> > Am 04.05.2016 um 13:37 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
> >=20
> > Hi Mirja,
> >=20
> >> On 4 May 2016, at 12:13, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
> >>=20
> >> However, the one part that does actually concern me is:
> >> "When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
> >>  default priority for transactions that do not have priority specified
> >>  in a DRMP AVP."
> >> This part seems dangerous and I would proposed to instead basically ha=
ve
> >> to different queues: one if a priority is defined and another one for
> >> requests without priority indication to make sure that requests out of
> >> the second queue will be served at some point in time and cannot be
> >> starved by other low priority requests completely.
> >=20
> > I think I disagree with you: default priority handling is orthogonal to=
 the number of queues used. Some implementations would use one queue per pr=
iority, so you are effectively suggesting that no priority is treated as it=
s own priority. I think this is an implementation detail.
> >=20
> >=20
> Yes, queues are implementation details. That was just meant as an
> illustration. My point it, I don=E2=80=99t think all requests without pri=
ority
> should get an default priority assigned

Why not? Why not assigning a priority any different than assigning a
unique priority?

(SMTP Priority extension RFC which I edited made the same choice:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6710)

> (and especially not a very low
> priority).

True, but the default is mid range.

> Further it has to be ensured that requests that don=E2=80=99t assign a
> priority do not get starved (as they might be important).

That I agree with. However the whole point of priorities is that higher
priority messages can starve lower priority messages. Using emergency
services as an example: during normal operations all messages will have
default priority (no priority). During an emergency, some messages will
have high priority which might starve no priority messages (regular
traffic).


From nobody Wed May  4 07:03:19 2016
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with COMMENT)
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I'm responding to the comments received in the order received.

Please see my responses inline.

Regards,

Steve

On 4/28/16 10:04 AM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In Section 6: excuse my ignorance, but how can priority information be
> conveyed to non-supporting endpoints (in 2 places)? And what is the
> point,as they don't support the extension?
SRD> This is to cover the case where there exists a Diameter client that 
does not support the DRMP mechanism originates a request.  An agent that 
does support the mechanism can, in this case, add the DRMP AVP to the 
message if it has the information needed to accurately add the priority 
information.
>
> In 9.1: it would be better to just have a table, instead of copying and
> modifying lots of text.
SRD> That's another way of presenting the information.  I think the 
existing approach works as well.
>
> It would be good to have a short sentence saying how this extension
> affects non upgraded agents.
SRD> I don't understand this comment.  This does not impact non 
supporting Diameter nodes.  A non supporting agent will just ignore the 
DRMP AVP.
>
>
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From nobody Wed May  4 07:31:08 2016
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Hi Alexey,

see below.

> Am 04.05.2016 um 14:03 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,
>=20
> On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 12:45 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>> Hi Alexey,
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Am 04.05.2016 um 13:37 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>=20
>>>> On 4 May 2016, at 12:13, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> However, the one part that does actually concern me is:
>>>> "When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
>>>> default priority for transactions that do not have priority =
specified
>>>> in a DRMP AVP."
>>>> This part seems dangerous and I would proposed to instead basically =
have
>>>> to different queues: one if a priority is defined and another one =
for
>>>> requests without priority indication to make sure that requests out =
of
>>>> the second queue will be served at some point in time and cannot be
>>>> starved by other low priority requests completely.
>>>=20
>>> I think I disagree with you: default priority handling is orthogonal =
to the number of queues used. Some implementations would use one queue =
per priority, so you are effectively suggesting that no priority is =
treated as its own priority. I think this is an implementation detail.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> Yes, queues are implementation details. That was just meant as an
>> illustration. My point it, I don=E2=80=99t think all requests without =
priority
>> should get an default priority assigned
>=20
> Why not? Why not assigning a priority any different than assigning a
> unique priority?
>=20
> (SMTP Priority extension RFC which I edited made the same choice:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6710)
>=20
>> (and especially not a very low
>> priority).
>=20
> True, but the default is mid range.
>=20
>> Further it has to be ensured that requests that don=E2=80=99t assign =
a
>> priority do not get starved (as they might be important).
>=20
> That I agree with. However the whole point of priorities is that =
higher
> priority messages can starve lower priority messages. Using emergency
> services as an example: during normal operations all messages will =
have
> default priority (no priority). During an emergency, some messages =
will
> have high priority which might starve no priority messages (regular
> traffic).

The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower priority, =
you are okay to be starved. However, if you don=E2=80=99t indicate =
anything (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is possible =
to do so), you might have the same or even a higher priority, and in =
this case it=E2=80=99s not okay to be starved.

Mirja



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Hi Janet,

there are clearly more options than the two mention below.

E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving two =
queues, that are both served with a certain rate.

I=E2=80=99m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) solutions =
to this problem as well.

Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my point of =
view and can actually hurt the systems.

Mirja

=20
> Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
>=20
> My comment below.
> Janet
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja =
Kuehlewind (IETF)
> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
> To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
> Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; =
dime@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on =
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>=20
> Hi Alexey,
>=20
> see below.
>=20
> The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower =
priority, you are okay to be starved. However, if you don=E2=80=99t =
indicate anything (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is =
possible to do so), you might have the same or even a higher priority, =
and in this case it=E2=80=99s not okay to be starved.
>=20
> Mirja
> <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system which =
serves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific =
mechanisms)you have two options
> 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
> 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this arbitrary =
value the "default priority")
>=20
> You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what that =
arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different sytems/applications =
might have different "default values".
>=20
> But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message =
comes in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
>=20
> </JPG>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Responding to both Alissa's comments and Lionel's responses.

Regards,

Steve

On 5/3/16 6:42 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com wrote:
> Hi Alissa,
>
> Thank you for your review.
> Please find below some clarifications, waiting for authors feeback.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
> EnvoyÃ© depuis Surface
>
> *De :* Alissa Cooper <mailto:alissa@cooperw.in>
> *EnvoyÃ© :* â€Žmardiâ€Ž â€Ž3â€Ž â€Žmaiâ€Ž â€Ž2016 â€Ž23â€Ž:â€Ž31
> *Ã€ :* iesg@ietf.org <mailto:iesg@ietf.org>
> *Cc :* draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org>, Lionel MORAND 
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>, dime-chairs@ietf.org 
> <mailto:dime-chairs@ietf.org>, Lionel MORAND 
> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>, dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>
> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> (1) Given the two key security threats identified in Section 11 -- that
> authorized nodes can issue requests with artificially high priority in
> order to get better treatment, and that unauthorized intermediaries can
> modify the priorities that senders set -- I don't see how it is
> legitimate to claim that either 5.1 or 5.2 are appropriate use cases for
> DRMP. The spec seems to assume that this mechanism will only be used in
> scenarios where nodes and agents have some out-of-band trust relationship
> established with each other (the shepherd write-up talks about a "trusted
> environment"), but that is certainly not the case in many disaster and
> emergency scenarios. If that really is a limitation on the scope of
> applicability of this mechanism, that should be stated in the document,
> and those use cases should either be removed or modified to explain the
> limitations on their applicability.
>
> [LM] I think that what is missing is that Diameter is mainly (if not 
> only) used in mobile operator networks. The text makes reference to 
> the RFC7683 where the overoload contgrol mechanism is introduced to 
> solve overload situations in telco networks. This additional mechanism 
> is seen as a complement of this overload control mechanism. Now, if it 
> is understood that it is a mechanism defined for â€œtrusted environmentâ€ 
> i.e. mobile networks, the use of priority indications in emergency and 
> disaster scenarios seems legitimate.
SRD> I would state it a little differently, but I agree that there needs 
to be some clarification here.  We intentionally did not specify how 
priorities are set in this document as those priorities need to take 
into account application specific knowledge.  This document is, instead, 
focused on how priority information is transported and used by nodes 
receiving the priority.  The thing that is missing is a statement that 
this mechanism only works when the definition of priority values is done 
in a consistent manner for all applications used by a Diameter network.  
It is my understanding that 3GPP will be defining priorities across its 
set of applications and that this will make sure that one application 
does not improperly take advantage of the mechanism at the expense of 
other applications.  I also expect that 3GPP will factor in the 5.1 and 
5.2 use cases when doing this work.

SRD> This does beg the question of whether or not we need to support 
interworking between multiple "DRMP priority schemes", where one 
Diameter network assumes priority scheme 1 and another assumes priority 
scheme 2 and the two priority schemes were defined completely 
independently.  The 3GPP priority definition would be an example of a 
priority scheme.  The mechanism, as currently defined, does not support 
this use case.

SRD> We could fix this by using a name-space concept similar to that 
used by SIP.  Or we could say that this mechanism only works in a 
trusted environment.  The working group should decide which approach to 
take.


>
> (2) Section 6 says:
>
>     "The mechanism for how the agent determines which requests are
>        throttled is implementation dependent and is outside the scope of
>        this document."
>
> How is a node supposed to determine how to set its priorities if each
> agent makes implementation-specific decisions about what those priorities
> mean? I understood the document to be saying that Diameter applications
> would have to define what he priority levels mean within their own
> contexts, but then I would have expected the interpretation of priorities
> amongst all nodes and agents implementing the same application to be the
> same.
>
> [LM] I understand. I think that the text should say â€œThe mechanism for 
> how the agent determines which requests are c(candidates) to be 
> throttledâ€. And, when there are requests to throttle, the priority 
> indication is used to determine â€œwhich requests to route first, which 
> requests to throttle and where the request is routed.  For instance, 
> requests with higher  priority might have a lower probability of being 
> throttled. â€.
SRD> I agree with Lionel's suggestion here.
>
> (3) Section 8 says:
>
>  "Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
> value."
>
> If the determination of the priority schemes are all
> application-specific, how is it appropriate for this spec to define what
> the default priority should be for all applications? Shouldn't
> applications specify their own defaults?
>
> [LM] it is needed to take into account that the use of priority 
> indication in Diameter will be optional and that legacy implementation 
> will not include any priority indication in Diameter requests. After 
> discussion, it was decided that requests without priority should be 
> handled as with a priority set to 10. This makes the difference with 
> requests with an explicit lower priorities and other with higher 
> priorities. 10 is used as â€œaverageâ€ priority, with the possibility of 
> specific operator policies to use another value.
SRD> As stated by Alexey in a separate email, I don't see the issue with 
a default value.  Alexey and Lionel have explained why, so I won't repeat.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Section 11 says: "DRMP gives Diameter nodes the ability to influence
> which requests are throttled during overload scenarios." But the
> information is not limited to use during overload scenarios, and the spec
> specifically allows its use for prioritized routing in absence of
> overload. This should be stated here too.
>
> [LM] right.
SRD> This is already addressed in the paragraph following the one above:

    The DRMP mechanism can also be used to influence the order in which
    Diameter messages are handled by Diameter nodes.  The above attacks
    have a potentially greater impact in this scenario as the priority
    indication impacts the handling of all requests at all times,
    independent of the overload status of Diameter nodes in the Diameter
    network.
>
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    Responding to both Alissa's comments and Lionel's responses.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    <br>
    Steve<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/3/16 6:42 PM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
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        'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
        'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
        'sans-serif';font-size:12pt;">
        <div>Hi Alissa,</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Thank you for your review.</div>
        <div>Please find below some clarifications, waiting for authors
          feeback.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Regards,</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Lionel<br>
        </div>
        <div data-signatureblock="true">
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>EnvoyÃ© depuis Surface</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
        </div>
        <div style="padding-top: 5px; border-top-color: rgb(229, 229,
          229); border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid;">
          <div><font style="line-height: 15pt; letter-spacing: 0.02em;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;,
              &quot;Meiryo&quot;, &quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&quot;,
              &quot;Microsoft JhengHei UI&quot;, &quot;Malgun
              Gothic&quot;, &quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt;"
              face=" 'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei
              UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
              'sans-serif'"><b>DeÂ :</b>Â <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:alissa@cooperw.in" target="_parent">Alissa
                Cooper</a><br>
              <b>EnvoyÃ©Â :</b>Â â€Žmardiâ€Ž â€Ž3â€Ž â€Žmaiâ€Ž â€Ž2016 â€Ž23â€Ž:â€Ž31<br>
              <b>Ã€ :</b>Â <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:iesg@ietf.org" target="_parent">iesg@ietf.org</a><br>
              <b>CcÂ :</b>Â <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org"
                target="_parent">draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org</a>,
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com" target="_parent">Lionel
                MORAND</a>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:dime-chairs@ietf.org" target="_parent">
                dime-chairs@ietf.org</a>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com" target="_parent">
                Lionel MORAND</a>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:dime@ietf.org" target="_parent">dime@ietf.org</a></font></div>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="">
          <div>Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position
            for<br>
            draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss<br>
            <br>
            When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
            reply to all<br>
            email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free
            to cut this<br>
            introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            Please refer to
            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
            for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT
            positions.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            The document, along with other ballot positions, can be
            found here:<br>
            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/</a><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            <br>
            (1) Given the two key security threats identified in Section
            11 -- that<br>
            authorized nodes can issue requests with artificially high
            priority in<br>
            order to get better treatment, and that unauthorized
            intermediaries can<br>
            modify the priorities that senders set -- I don't see how it
            is<br>
            legitimate to claim that either 5.1 or 5.2 are appropriate
            use cases for<br>
            DRMP. The spec seems to assume that this mechanism will only
            be used in<br>
            scenarios where nodes and agents have some out-of-band trust
            relationship<br>
            established with each other (the shepherd write-up talks
            about a "trusted<br>
            environment"), but that is certainly not the case in many
            disaster and<br>
            emergency scenarios. If that really is a limitation on the
            scope of<br>
            applicability of this mechanism, that should be stated in
            the document,<br>
            and those use cases should either be removed or modified to
            explain the<br>
            limitations on their applicability.Â  <br>
          </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>[LM] I think that what is missing is that Diameter is
            mainly (if not only) used in mobile operator networks. The
            text makes reference to the RFC7683 where the overoload
            contgrol mechanism is introduced to solve overload
            situations in telco networks. This additional mechanism is
            seen as a complement ofÂ thisÂ overloadÂ control mechanism.
            Now, if it is understood that it is a mechanism defined
            forÂ â€œtrusted environmentâ€ i.e. mobile networks, the use of
            priority indications in emergency and disaster
            scenariosÂ seems legitimate.</div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; I would state it a little differently, but I agree that
    there needs to be some clarification here.Â  We intentionally did not
    specify how priorities are set in this document as those priorities
    need to take into account application specific knowledge.Â  This
    document is, instead, focused on how priority information is
    transported and used by nodes receiving the priority.Â  The thing
    that is missing is a statement that this mechanism only works when
    the definition of priority values is done in a consistent manner for
    all applications used by a Diameter network.Â  It is my understanding
    that 3GPP will be defining priorities across its set of applications
    and that this will make sure that one application does not
    improperly take advantage of the mechanism at the expense of other
    applications.Â  I also expect that 3GPP will factor in the 5.1 and
    5.2 use cases when doing this work.<br>
    <br>
    SRD&gt; This does beg the question of whether or not we need to
    support interworking between multiple "DRMP priority schemes", where
    one Diameter network assumes priority scheme 1 and another assumes
    priority scheme 2 and the two priority schemes were defined
    completely independently.Â  The 3GPP priority definition would be an
    example of a priority scheme.Â  The mechanism, as currently defined,
    does not support this use case.<br>
    <br>
    SRD&gt; We could fix this by using a name-space concept similar to
    that used by SIP.Â  Or we could say that this mechanism only works in
    a trusted environment.Â  The working group should decide which
    approach to take.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr" style="font-family:
        'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
        'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
        'sans-serif';font-size:12pt;">
        <div dir="">
          <div><br>
            (2) Section 6 says:<br>
            <br>
            Â Â Â  "The mechanism for how the agent determines which
            requests are<br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â  throttled is implementation dependent and is outside
            the scope of<br>
            Â Â Â Â Â Â  this document."<br>
            <br>
            How is a node supposed to determine how to set its
            priorities if each<br>
            agent makes implementation-specific decisions about what
            those priorities<br>
            mean? I understood the document to be saying that Diameter
            applications<br>
            would have to define what he priority levels mean within
            their own<br>
            contexts, but then I would have expected the interpretation
            of priorities<br>
            amongst all nodes and agents implementing the same
            application to be the<br>
            same. <br>
          </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>[LM] I understand. I think that the text should sayÂ â€œThe
            mechanism for how the agent determines which requests are
            c(candidates) to be throttledâ€. And, when there are requests
            to throttle,Â the priority indication is used to
            determineÂ â€œwhich requests to route first, which requests to
            throttle and where the request is routed.Â  For instance,
            requests with higherÂ  priority might have a lower
            probability of being throttled. â€.</div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; I agree with Lionel's suggestion here.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr" style="font-family:
        'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
        'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
        'sans-serif';font-size:12pt;">
        <div dir="">
          <div><br>
            (3) Section 8 says: <br>
            <br>
            Â "Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this
            default<br>
            value."<br>
            Â Â  <br>
            If the determination of the priority schemes are all<br>
            application-specific, how is it appropriate for this spec to
            define what<br>
            the default priority should be for all applications?
            Shouldn't<br>
            applications specify their own defaults?<br>
          </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>[LM] it is needed to take into account that the use of
            priority indication in Diameter will be optional and that
            legacyÂ implementation will not include any priority
            indication in Diameter requests. After discussion, it was
            decided that requests without priority should be handled as
            with a priority set to 10. This makes the difference with
            requests with an explicit lower priorities and other with
            higher priorities. 10 is used asÂ â€œaverageâ€ priority, with
            the possibility of specific operator policies to use another
            value. <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; As stated by Alexey in a separate email, I don't see the
    issue with a default value.Â  Alexey and Lionel have explained why,
    so I won't repeat.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr" style="font-family:
        'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
        'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
        'sans-serif';font-size:12pt;">
        <div dir="">
          <div>
            <br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            <br>
            Section 11 says: "DRMP gives Diameter nodes the ability to
            influence<br>
            which requests are throttled during overload scenarios." But
            the<br>
            information is not limited to use during overload scenarios,
            and the spec<br>
            specifically allows its use for prioritized routing in
            absence of<br>
            overload. This should be stated here too.<br>
          </div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>[LM] right.<br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; This is already addressed in the paragraph following the one
    above:<br>
    <br>
    Â Â  The DRMP mechanism can also be used to influence the order in
    which<br>
    Â Â  Diameter messages are handled by Diameter nodes.Â  The above
    attacks<br>
    Â Â  have a potentially greater impact in this scenario as the
    priority<br>
    Â Â  indication impacts the handling of all requests at all times,<br>
    Â Â  independent of the overload status of Diameter nodes in the
    Diameter<br>
    Â Â  network.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
      type="cite">
      <div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr" style="font-family:
        'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
        'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
        'sans-serif';font-size:12pt;">
        <div dir="">
          <div>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <pre>_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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From nobody Wed May  4 09:36:13 2016
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To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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My comments inline.

Steve

On 5/3/16 9:31 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have a few concerns that I think need some discussion.
>
> 1) Priority between applications: The fact that agents can apply priority
> for messages from multiple applications without knowledge of those
> applications seems dangerous. Let's say application A is a critical
> infrastructure application, and application B is not. But clients for
> application B might set requests to have a higher priority than do
> clients for application A.  Further, application B could become a DoS
> vector for application A. One potential (and likely half-baked) way to
> mitigate this would be to say that nodes that are not "application aware"
> can only apply priority among messages for the same application.
SRD> This is similar to saying that priority setting across applications 
need to be set in a consistent way.  We might need to define the 
"priority scheme" or some similar concept as sketched out in my response 
to Alissa's DISCUSS.
>
> 2) Priority between clients of the same application: If you have multiple
> clients for the same application, don't they need to use the same
> prioritization strategy? How is this to be managed?
SRD> It is not directly defined.  This is back to the question of 
whether or not the mechanism is constrained to only work in a trusted 
environment.
>
> 3) Out of order requests: The draft explicitly allows agents to re-route
> and even explicitly re-order messages. Is it safe to have a
> non-application aware node change the order of messages?
SRD> This mechanism doesn't change the need for Diameter nodes to handle 
messages arriving out of order.  This exists in any protocol that has 
agents/proxies.
>
> 4) I am nervous about the idea that clients and servers would use a
> generic message priority mechanism to manage the allocation of resources
> that result from a requests and answers. It seems like that should be
> based on application specific rules and information. (Now, if the point
> is that these same AVPs might be used in an application according to
> application specific rules, that might be okay--but then you might run
> into issues where application-agnostic agents don't know the difference.)
SRD> The definition of what different priority levels mean will reflect 
the application specific knowledge.  Agents just route requests and with 
the introduction of DOIC, sometimes throttle them.  The agent doesn't 
need anything but the priority value, as long as the priority values are 
defined consistently across all applications.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> General: I approached this assuming prioritization would matter only in
> overload scenarios. But I gather you envision using this in non-overload
> scenarios? (This interacts with my discuss point about the use of DRMP to
> prioritize resource allocation that result result from successful
> diameter transactions.) Use case 5.3 is a bit worrisome in this context.
SRD> I don't understand the concern.
>
>
> -6, list item 4: Are there really use cases for answer senders to set a
> different priority on the answer than was on the request? That seems to
> add quite a bit of complexity.
SRD> This was an explicit conversation within the working group. I don't 
recall the specific use case off the top of my head, but this was 
changed to the current wording after discussions within the working 
group.  I can go back to the email archive to refresh my memory if 
necessary.
>
> - 6, list item 8: I'm not sure what it means for a client to prioritize
> answers to it's own requests.
SRD> The client could choose to complete the transaction, and initiate 
other dependent actions, based on the priority received in the answer 
message.  It is those dependent actions -- setting up a data channel, 
authorizing call completion, etc -- that would be impacted by the 
priorities received in the answer.
>
> -8,  "Diameter nodes SHOULD
>     include Diameter routing message priority in the DRMP AVP in all
>     Diameter request messages." :
> Does that apply to all nodes that touch a request, or just the request
> originator?
SRD> This statement was meant to apply to the request originator.  The 
statement should be updated.
>
> -- "Diameter nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP
> carried in the answer message, if it exists."
> The MUST seems odd, since paying attention to the priority in the initial
> request was only SHOULD.
SRD> The wording here is cumbersome.  The full paragraph is as follows:

    When determining the priority to apply to answer messages, Diameter
    nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP carried in the
    answer message, if it exists.  Otherwise, the Diameter node MUST use
    the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP of the associated request
    message.

This is meant to say that a Diameter node receiving an answer message 
MUST use the priority value in the answer message when processing the 
message.  If there is no DRMP AVP in the answer message then the 
receiving node uses the priority that was in the request message.  I'd 
be happy to re-craft this to be more clear.
>
> -- "Another is to use the Proxy-Info
>        mechanism defined in [RFC6733].":
> That probably needs some elaboration.
SRD> A reference to the document that defines Proxy-Info isn't sufficient?
>
>


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To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>, "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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I agree with Alexey.  I don't see the issue with the default value. 
Alexey has done a better job of explaining why than I could.

Steve

On 5/4/16 7:03 AM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Hi Mirja,
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 12:45 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>> Hi Alexey,
>>
>>
>>> Am 04.05.2016 um 13:37 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>>
>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>
>>>> On 4 May 2016, at 12:13, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> However, the one part that does actually concern me is:
>>>> "When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
>>>>   default priority for transactions that do not have priority specified
>>>>   in a DRMP AVP."
>>>> This part seems dangerous and I would proposed to instead basically have
>>>> to different queues: one if a priority is defined and another one for
>>>> requests without priority indication to make sure that requests out of
>>>> the second queue will be served at some point in time and cannot be
>>>> starved by other low priority requests completely.
>>> I think I disagree with you: default priority handling is orthogonal to the number of queues used. Some implementations would use one queue per priority, so you are effectively suggesting that no priority is treated as its own priority. I think this is an implementation detail.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes, queues are implementation details. That was just meant as an
>> illustration. My point it, I donâ€™t think all requests without priority
>> should get an default priority assigned
> Why not? Why not assigning a priority any different than assigning a
> unique priority?
>
> (SMTP Priority extension RFC which I edited made the same choice:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6710)
>
>> (and especially not a very low
>> priority).
> True, but the default is mid range.
>
>> Further it has to be ensured that requests that donâ€™t assign a
>> priority do not get starved (as they might be important).
> That I agree with. However the whole point of priorities is that higher
> priority messages can starve lower priority messages. Using emergency
> services as an example: during normal operations all messages will have
> default priority (no priority). During an emergency, some messages will
> have high priority which might starve no priority messages (regular
> traffic).
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Mirja,

Your example of having two queues is just one way of implementing a 
default priority.

Yes, as pointed out by Alexey, use of priority can result in starving of 
lower priority messages.  This is by design and an explicit requirement 
of networks that handle emergency services.

I'm not seeing the issue here.

Steve

On 5/4/16 10:50 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Hi Janet,
>
> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
>
> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving two queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
>
> Iâ€™m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) solutions to this problem as well.
>
> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my point of view and can actually hurt the systems.
>
> Mirja
>
>   
>> Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
>>
>> My comment below.
>> Janet
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
>> To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
>> Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; dime@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja KÃ¼hlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>
>> Hi Alexey,
>>
>> see below.
>>
>> The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower priority, you are okay to be starved. However, if you donâ€™t indicate anything (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is possible to do so), you might have the same or even a higher priority, and in this case itâ€™s not okay to be starved.
>>
>> Mirja
>> <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system which serves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific mechanisms)you have two options
>> 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
>> 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this arbitrary value the "default priority")
>>
>> You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what that arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different sytems/applications might have different "default values".
>>
>> But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message comes in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
>>
>> </JPG>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> DiME@ietf.org
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>>
>> This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA that may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The information in this message is intended only for use by the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If you believe you have received this message in error, please contact me immediately and be aware that any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. NOTE: Regardless of content, this email shall not operate to bind CSRA to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of email for such purpose.
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Mirja had a question on the number or priority levels:

As a starting point, most priority schemes for emergency services have 
at least five priority levels.   If we assume, based on this, that 
emergency services need five values then this would be the minimum 
number of priority levels.  We increased the number of priority values 
to reflect that there are multiple use cases specified.  Other values 
would be used for the differentiated services and application specific 
priorities use cases.

Steve

On 5/4/16 6:13 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why do you need 15 different priority levels? Wouldn't be two enough for
> all or your use cases?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with COMMENT)
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I'm resending this email with the IESG mailing list included.

Apologies for the added mail.

Steve

On 5/4/16 9:03 AM, Steve Donovan wrote:
> I'm responding to the comments received in the order received.
>
> Please see my responses inline.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
> On 4/28/16 10:04 AM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: No Objection
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to 
>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> In Section 6: excuse my ignorance, but how can priority information be
>> conveyed to non-supporting endpoints (in 2 places)? And what is the
>> point,as they don't support the extension?
> SRD> This is to cover the case where there exists a Diameter client 
> that does not support the DRMP mechanism originates a request.  An 
> agent that does support the mechanism can, in this case, add the DRMP 
> AVP to the message if it has the information needed to accurately add 
> the priority information.
>>
>> In 9.1: it would be better to just have a table, instead of copying and
>> modifying lots of text.
> SRD> That's another way of presenting the information.  I think the 
> existing approach works as well.
>>
>> It would be good to have a short sentence saying how this extension
>> affects non upgraded agents.
> SRD> I don't understand this comment.  This does not impact non 
> supporting Diameter nodes.  A non supporting agent will just ignore 
> the DRMP AVP.
>>
>>
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>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

- OLD:

   This also recognizes that more
   work has already taken place for established sessions and, as a
   result, it might be more harmful if the session update and session
   ending requests were to be throttled.


NEW:
   This also recognizes that more
   work has already taken place for established sessions and, as a
   result, it might be more harmful from a signaling point of view 
   if the session update and session ending requests were to be
throttled.

-

 1.  Request sender - The sender of a request, be it a Diameter Client
       or a Diameter Server, determines the relative priority of the
       request and includes that priority information in the request.

Question: what is the risk of DMRP ending up as the DSCP, i.e. 
Every end point changes the value to best service, and in the end, it's
useless, and uniquely set by the operator.



From nobody Wed May  4 10:18:59 2016
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to see text clarifying the responses to Ben & Alissa's discuss
points.



From nobody Wed May  4 10:45:05 2016
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I will jump in on one point, since this is related to the discussion on 
whether nodes need a common approach to selecting/interpreting priority 
values:

On 4 May 2016, at 12:02, Benoit Claise wrote:

>
> -
>
>  1.  Request sender - The sender of a request, be it a Diameter Client
>        or a Diameter Server, determines the relative priority of the
>        request and includes that priority information in the request.
>
> Question: what is the risk of DMRP ending up as the DSCP, i.e.
> Every end point changes the value to best service, and in the end, 
> it's
> useless, and uniquely set by the operator.

I think there's a trusted network assumption here, which would include 
an assumption that trusted clients do not intentionally game the system. 
(in contrast with _accidentally_ gaming the system by using a different 
scheme to set priority values.)

However, I think that this sort of assumption should be explicitly 
mentioned. IIRC, DOIC included some guidance about crossing trust 
boundaries; perhaps DRMP should do the same.

(And I guess that does make it a bit like DSCP ;-)  )

Ben.


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Responding to Steve because there is an issue here to unpack more, and =
he quotes Lionel ...

> On May 4, 2016, at 8:58 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Responding to both Alissa's comments and Lionel's responses.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 5/3/16 6:42 PM, lionel.morand@orange.com =
<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com> wrote:
>> Hi Alissa,
>>=20
>> Thank you for your review.
>> Please find below some clarifications, waiting for authors feeback.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Lionel
>>=20
>> Envoy=C3=A9 depuis Surface
>>=20
>> De : Alissa Cooper <mailto:alissa@cooperw.in>
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : =E2=80=8Emardi=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8E3=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8Emai=E2=
=80=8E =E2=80=8E2016 =E2=80=8E23=E2=80=8E:=E2=80=8E31
>> =C3=80 : iesg@ietf.org <mailto:iesg@ietf.org>
>> Cc : draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org>, Lionel MORAND =
<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>, dime-chairs@ietf.org =
<mailto:dime-chairs@ietf.org>, Lionel MORAND =
<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>, dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>>=20
>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss
>>=20
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html =
<https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html>
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> (1) Given the two key security threats identified in Section 11 -- =
that
>> authorized nodes can issue requests with artificially high priority =
in
>> order to get better treatment, and that unauthorized intermediaries =
can
>> modify the priorities that senders set -- I don't see how it is
>> legitimate to claim that either 5.1 or 5.2 are appropriate use cases =
for
>> DRMP. The spec seems to assume that this mechanism will only be used =
in
>> scenarios where nodes and agents have some out-of-band trust =
relationship
>> established with each other (the shepherd write-up talks about a =
"trusted
>> environment"), but that is certainly not the case in many disaster =
and
>> emergency scenarios. If that really is a limitation on the scope of
>> applicability of this mechanism, that should be stated in the =
document,
>> and those use cases should either be removed or modified to explain =
the
>> limitations on their applicability. =20
>>=20
>> [LM] I think that what is missing is that Diameter is mainly (if not =
only) used in mobile operator networks. The text makes reference to the =
RFC7683 where the overoload contgrol mechanism is introduced to solve =
overload situations in telco networks. This additional mechanism is seen =
as a complement of this overload control mechanism. Now, if it is =
understood that it is a mechanism defined for =E2=80=9Ctrusted =
environment=E2=80=9D i.e. mobile networks, the use of priority =
indications in emergency and disaster scenarios seems legitimate.
> SRD> I would state it a little differently, but I agree that there =
needs to be some clarification here.  We intentionally did not specify =
how priorities are set in this document as those priorities need to take =
into account application specific knowledge.  This document is, instead, =
focused on how priority information is transported and used by nodes =
receiving the priority.  The thing that is missing is a statement that =
this mechanism only works when the definition of priority values is done =
in a consistent manner for all applications used by a Diameter network.  =
It is my understanding that 3GPP will be defining priorities across its =
set of applications and that this will make sure that one application =
does not improperly take advantage of the mechanism at the expense of =
other applications.  I also expect that 3GPP will factor in the 5.1 and =
5.2 use cases when doing this work.

I=E2=80=99m glad you pointed this out, because this is different from my =
understanding of how DRMP is intended to be used. And I will admit to =
not being super familiar with Diameter. I saw this in Section 4:

"Note: There are a number of application specific definitions
      indicating various views of application level priority for
      different requests.  Using these application specific priority
      Attribute Value Pairs (AVPs) as input to throttling and other
      Diameter routing decisions would require Diameter agents to
      understand all applications and do application specific parsing of
      all messages in order to determine the priority of individual
      messages.  This is considered an unacceptable level of complexity
      to put on elements whose primary responsibility is to route
      Diameter messages.=E2=80=9D

I was thinking that the implication from this is that a Diameter agent =
would be scoped such that it would only receive requests from clients =
all using the same application. But you say that is not the case. If an =
agent is supposed to make sense of priorities received from multiple =
different applications, then it seems problematic for each application =
to independently define its own priority semantics with any expectation =
about what those semantics are supposed to effectuate. For example, =
consider if people go off and work on the EAP application and decide =
that they really only need two priority levels, so they decide to use 10 =
and 11. Then people go off and work on the SIP application and they =
decide they really only need two priority levels, so they decide to use =
1 and 2. Should all SIP application traffic really always be prioritized =
over all EAP application traffic?

>=20
> SRD> This does beg the question of whether or not we need to support =
interworking between multiple "DRMP priority schemes", where one =
Diameter network assumes priority scheme 1 and another assumes priority =
scheme 2 and the two priority schemes were defined completely =
independently.  The 3GPP priority definition would be an example of a =
priority scheme.  The mechanism, as currently defined, does not support =
this use case.
>=20
> SRD> We could fix this by using a name-space concept similar to that =
used by SIP.  Or we could say that this mechanism only works in a =
trusted environment.  The working group should decide which approach to =
take.

I agree that some sort of fix is needed here. And I=E2=80=99m not sure =
that the trusted environment thing is necessarily enough, because that =
doesn=E2=80=99t give guidance to those defining priority schemes about =
what they need to do.

I also think this is a distinct issue from the one I raised about the =
use cases and inability to trust clients. Even if only a single =
application ever defines a priority scheme, a network where clients =
can=E2=80=99t be trusted could fall victim to an attacker who inflates =
the priority of his traffic to try to prevent emergency calls/first =
responders from getting priority treatment.

>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> (2) Section 6 says:
>>=20
>>     "The mechanism for how the agent determines which requests are
>>        throttled is implementation dependent and is outside the scope =
of
>>        this document."
>>=20
>> How is a node supposed to determine how to set its priorities if each
>> agent makes implementation-specific decisions about what those =
priorities
>> mean? I understood the document to be saying that Diameter =
applications
>> would have to define what he priority levels mean within their own
>> contexts, but then I would have expected the interpretation of =
priorities
>> amongst all nodes and agents implementing the same application to be =
the
>> same.=20
>>=20
>> [LM] I understand. I think that the text should say =E2=80=9CThe =
mechanism for how the agent determines which requests are c(candidates) =
to be throttled=E2=80=9D. And, when there are requests to throttle, the =
priority indication is used to determine =E2=80=9Cwhich requests to =
route first, which requests to throttle and where the request is routed. =
 For instance, requests with higher  priority might have a lower =
probability of being throttled. =E2=80=9D.
> SRD> I agree with Lionel's suggestion here.

WFM

>>=20
>> (3) Section 8 says:=20
>>=20
>>  "Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>> value."
>>   =20
>> If the determination of the priority schemes are all
>> application-specific, how is it appropriate for this spec to define =
what
>> the default priority should be for all applications? Shouldn't
>> applications specify their own defaults?
>>=20
>> [LM] it is needed to take into account that the use of priority =
indication in Diameter will be optional and that legacy implementation =
will not include any priority indication in Diameter requests. After =
discussion, it was decided that requests without priority should be =
handled as with a priority set to 10. This makes the difference with =
requests with an explicit lower priorities and other with higher =
priorities. 10 is used as =E2=80=9Caverage=E2=80=9D priority, with the =
possibility of specific operator policies to use another value.=20
> SRD> As stated by Alexey in a separate email, I don't see the issue =
with a default value.  Alexey and Lionel have explained why, so I won't =
repeat.

This ties into my interpretation described above, where I thought agents =
would be handling requests specific to one application. I see the value =
of this if they are handling requests from multiple applications.


>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> Section 11 says: "DRMP gives Diameter nodes the ability to influence
>> which requests are throttled during overload scenarios." But the
>> information is not limited to use during overload scenarios, and the =
spec
>> specifically allows its use for prioritized routing in absence of
>> overload. This should be stated here too.
>>=20
>> [LM] right.
> SRD> This is already addressed in the paragraph following the one =
above:
>=20
>    The DRMP mechanism can also be used to influence the order in which
>    Diameter messages are handled by Diameter nodes.  The above attacks
>    have a potentially greater impact in this scenario as the priority
>    indication impacts the handling of all requests at all times,
>    independent of the overload status of Diameter nodes in the =
Diameter
>    network.

Actually that is a bunch of paragraphs further down, in 11.1. I was =
commenting on just the first sentence of 11. I know the reader can keep =
reading and get to the part you quote, but I think it=E2=80=99s =
important not to gloss over the other uses of this in the intro to 11 =
either.

Alissa

>>=20
>> =
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>>=20
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>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Responding to Steve because there is an issue =
here to unpack more, and he quotes Lionel ...</div><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
May 4, 2016, at 8:58 AM, Steve Donovan &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com" =
class=3D"">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Responding to both Alissa's comments and =
Lionel's responses.</span><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', =
Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei =
UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', =
Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Regards,</span><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color =
Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft =
JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, =
'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', =
'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Steve</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"moz-cite-prefix" style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, =
'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', =
'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">On 5/3/16 6:42 PM,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D84=
4122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup" type=3D"cite"=
 style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div =
data-externalstyle=3D"false" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', =
'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hi Alissa,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thank you for your review.</div><div class=3D"">Please find =
below some clarifications, waiting for authors feeback.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Lionel<br =
class=3D""></div><div data-signatureblock=3D"true" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9 depuis =
Surface</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
style=3D"padding-top: 5px; border-top-color: rgb(229, 229, 229); =
border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D" 'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft =
YaHei
              UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
              'sans-serif'" style=3D"line-height: 15pt; letter-spacing: =
0.02em;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">De&nbsp;:</b>&nbsp;<a =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:alissa@cooperw.in" =
target=3D"_parent" class=3D"">Alissa Cooper</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Envoy=C3=A9&nbsp;:</b>&nbsp;=E2=80=8Emardi=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8E3=E2=
=80=8E =E2=80=8Emai=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8E2016 =E2=80=8E23=E2=80=8E:=E2=80=8E3=
1<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">=C3=80 :</b>&nbsp;<a =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org" target=3D"_parent" =
class=3D"">iesg@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc&nbsp;:</b>&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org" target=3D"_parent" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org</a>,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com" target=3D"_parent" =
class=3D"">Lionel MORAND</a>,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:dime-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_parent" =
class=3D"">dime-chairs@ietf.org</a>,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com" target=3D"_parent" =
class=3D"">Lionel MORAND</a>,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org" target=3D"_parent" =
class=3D"">dime@ietf.org</a></font></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Alissa Cooper =
has entered the following ballot position for<br =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">When responding, please keep the subject line intact and =
reply to all<br class=3D"">email addresses included in the To and CC =
lines. (Feel free to cut this<br class=3D"">introductory paragraph, =
however.)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please refer =
to<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html">https:/=
/www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br class=3D"">for =
more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The document, along with other =
ballot positions, can be found here:<br class=3D""><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/">https://da=
tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br class=3D"">DISCUSS:<br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(1) Given the two key security =
threats identified in Section 11 -- that<br class=3D"">authorized nodes =
can issue requests with artificially high priority in<br class=3D"">order =
to get better treatment, and that unauthorized intermediaries can<br =
class=3D"">modify the priorities that senders set -- I don't see how it =
is<br class=3D"">legitimate to claim that either 5.1 or 5.2 are =
appropriate use cases for<br class=3D"">DRMP. The spec seems to assume =
that this mechanism will only be used in<br class=3D"">scenarios where =
nodes and agents have some out-of-band trust relationship<br =
class=3D"">established with each other (the shepherd write-up talks =
about a "trusted<br class=3D"">environment"), but that is certainly not =
the case in many disaster and<br class=3D"">emergency scenarios. If that =
really is a limitation on the scope of<br class=3D"">applicability of =
this mechanism, that should be stated in the document,<br class=3D"">and =
those use cases should either be removed or modified to explain the<br =
class=3D"">limitations on their applicability.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">[LM] I think that what =
is missing is that Diameter is mainly (if not only) used in mobile =
operator networks. The text makes reference to the RFC7683 where the =
overoload contgrol mechanism is introduced to solve overload situations =
in telco networks. This additional mechanism is seen as a complement =
of&nbsp;this&nbsp;overload&nbsp;control mechanism. Now, if it is =
understood that it is a mechanism defined for&nbsp;=E2=80=9Ctrusted =
environment=E2=80=9D i.e. mobile networks, the use of priority =
indications in emergency and disaster scenarios&nbsp;seems =
legitimate.</div></div></div></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', =
'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">SRD&gt; I would state it a little differently, but I agree =
that there needs to be some clarification here.&nbsp; We intentionally =
did not specify how priorities are set in this document as those =
priorities need to take into account application specific =
knowledge.&nbsp; This document is, instead, focused on how priority =
information is transported and used by nodes receiving the =
priority.&nbsp; The thing that is missing is a statement that this =
mechanism only works when the definition of priority values is done in a =
consistent manner for all applications used by a Diameter network.&nbsp; =
It is my understanding that 3GPP will be defining priorities across its =
set of applications and that this will make sure that one application =
does not improperly take advantage of the mechanism at the expense of =
other applications.&nbsp; I also expect that 3GPP will factor in the 5.1 =
and 5.2 use cases when doing this work.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', =
'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99m glad you pointed this out, because =
this is different from my understanding of how DRMP is intended to be =
used. And I will admit to not being super familiar with Diameter. I saw =
this in Section 4:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><div>"Note: There =
are a number of application specific definitions</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; indicating various views of application level priority =
for</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; different requests. &nbsp;Using these =
application specific priority</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Attribute =
Value Pairs (AVPs) as input to throttling and other</div><div>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; Diameter routing decisions would require Diameter agents =
to</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; understand all applications and do =
application specific parsing of</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; all =
messages in order to determine the priority of =
individual</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; messages. &nbsp;This is =
considered an unacceptable level of complexity</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; to put on elements whose primary responsibility is to =
route</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Diameter messages.=E2=80=9D</div><div=
><br class=3D""></div><div>I was thinking that the implication from this =
is that a Diameter agent would be scoped such that it would only receive =
requests from clients all using the same application. But you say that =
is not the case. If an agent is supposed to make sense of priorities =
received from multiple different applications, then it seems problematic =
for each application to independently define its own priority semantics =
with any expectation about what those semantics are supposed to =
effectuate. For example, consider if people go off and work on the EAP =
application and decide that they really only need two priority levels, =
so they decide to use 10 and 11. Then people go off and work on the SIP =
application and they decide they really only need two priority levels, =
so they decide to use 1 and 2. Should all SIP application traffic really =
always be prioritized over all EAP application traffic?</div></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">SRD&gt; This does beg the question of whether or =
not we need to support interworking between multiple "DRMP priority =
schemes", where one Diameter network assumes priority scheme 1 and =
another assumes priority scheme 2 and the two priority schemes were =
defined completely independently.&nbsp; The 3GPP priority definition =
would be an example of a priority scheme.&nbsp; The mechanism, as =
currently defined, does not support this use case.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">SRD&gt; We could fix this by using a name-space =
concept similar to that used by SIP.&nbsp; Or we could say that this =
mechanism only works in a trusted environment.&nbsp; The working group =
should decide which approach to take.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', =
'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I agree that some sort of fix is needed here. And =
I=E2=80=99m not sure that the trusted environment thing is necessarily =
enough, because that doesn=E2=80=99t give guidance to those defining =
priority schemes about what they need to do.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I also think this is a distinct issue from the one =
I raised about the use cases and inability to trust clients. Even if =
only a single application ever defines a priority scheme, a network =
where clients can=E2=80=99t be trusted could fall victim to an attacker =
who inflates the priority of his traffic to try to prevent emergency =
calls/first responders from getting priority treatment.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D84=
4122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup" type=3D"cite"=
 style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div =
data-externalstyle=3D"false" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', =
'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><div dir=3D"" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">(2) Section 6 says:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"The mechanism for how the =
agent determines which requests are<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>throttled is implementation =
dependent and is outside the scope of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>this document."<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">How is a node supposed to determine how to set =
its priorities if each<br class=3D"">agent makes implementation-specific =
decisions about what those priorities<br class=3D"">mean? I understood =
the document to be saying that Diameter applications<br class=3D"">would =
have to define what he priority levels mean within their own<br =
class=3D"">contexts, but then I would have expected the interpretation =
of priorities<br class=3D"">amongst all nodes and agents implementing =
the same application to be the<br class=3D"">same.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">[LM] I understand. I =
think that the text should say&nbsp;=E2=80=9CThe mechanism for how the =
agent determines which requests are c(candidates) to be throttled=E2=80=9D=
. And, when there are requests to throttle,&nbsp;the priority indication =
is used to determine&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cwhich requests to route first, which =
requests to throttle and where the request is routed.&nbsp; For =
instance, requests with higher&nbsp; priority might have a lower =
probability of being throttled. =E2=80=9D.</div></div></div></blockquote><=
span style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">SRD&gt; I agree with Lionel's suggestion =
here.</span><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>WFM</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D84=
4122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup" type=3D"cite"=
 style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div =
data-externalstyle=3D"false" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', =
'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><div dir=3D"" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">(3) Section 8 says:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;"Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as =
this default<br class=3D"">value."<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">If the =
determination of the priority schemes are all<br =
class=3D"">application-specific, how is it appropriate for this spec to =
define what<br class=3D"">the default priority should be for all =
applications? Shouldn't<br class=3D"">applications specify their own =
defaults?<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">[LM] it is needed to take into account that the use of =
priority indication in Diameter will be optional and that =
legacy&nbsp;implementation will not include any priority indication in =
Diameter requests. After discussion, it was decided that requests =
without priority should be handled as with a priority set to 10. This =
makes the difference with requests with an explicit lower priorities and =
other with higher priorities. 10 is used as&nbsp;=E2=80=9Caverage=E2=80=9D=
 priority, with the possibility of specific operator policies to use =
another value.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', =
'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">SRD&gt; As stated by Alexey in a separate email, I don't see =
the issue with a default value.&nbsp; Alexey and Lionel have explained =
why, so I won't repeat.</span><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', =
Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei =
UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This ties =
into my interpretation described above, where I thought agents would be =
handling requests specific to one application. I see the value of this =
if they are handling requests from multiple applications.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D84=
4122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup" type=3D"cite"=
 style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div =
data-externalstyle=3D"false" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', =
'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><div dir=3D"" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br class=3D"">COMMENT:<br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Section 11 says: "DRMP gives =
Diameter nodes the ability to influence<br class=3D"">which requests are =
throttled during overload scenarios." But the<br class=3D"">information =
is not limited to use during overload scenarios, and the spec<br =
class=3D"">specifically allows its use for prioritized routing in =
absence of<br class=3D"">overload. This should be stated here too.<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">[LM]=
 right.<br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">SRD&gt; This is already addressed in the =
paragraph following the one above:</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', =
'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', =
Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei =
UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
DRMP mechanism can also be used to influence the order in =
which</span><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Diameter messages are handled by Diameter nodes.&nbsp; The above =
attacks</span><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; have a =
potentially greater impact in this scenario as the priority</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; indication impacts the handling of =
all requests at all times,</span><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color =
Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft =
JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, =
'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', =
'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
independent of the overload status of Diameter nodes in the =
Diameter</span><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
network.</span><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe =
UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun =
Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Actually =
that is a bunch of paragraphs further down, in 11.1. I was commenting on =
just the first sentence of 11. I know the reader can keep reading and =
get to the part you quote, but I think it=E2=80=99s important not to =
gloss over the other uses of this in the intro to 11 =
either.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Alissa</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D84=
4122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup" type=3D"cite"=
 style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, =
'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div =
data-externalstyle=3D"false" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', =
'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><div dir=3D"" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div><pre =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________

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</pre></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, =
'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', =
'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
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--Apple-Mail=_CBA5C409-9128-4BA6-8739-DEDA138A9A4C--


From nobody Wed May  4 11:43:47 2016
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To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org, dime-chairs@ietf.org, dime@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with COMMENT)
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My comments inline.

Regards,

Steve

On 5/4/16 12:02 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> - OLD:
>
>     This also recognizes that more
>     work has already taken place for established sessions and, as a
>     result, it might be more harmful if the session update and session
>     ending requests were to be throttled.
>
>
> NEW:
>     This also recognizes that more
>     work has already taken place for established sessions and, as a
>     result, it might be more harmful from a signaling point of view
>     if the session update and session ending requests were to be
> throttled.
SRD> I'm ok with this change.
>
> -
>
>   1.  Request sender - The sender of a request, be it a Diameter Client
>         or a Diameter Server, determines the relative priority of the
>         request and includes that priority information in the request.
>
> Question: what is the risk of DMRP ending up as the DSCP, i.e.
> Every end point changes the value to best service, and in the end, it's
> useless, and uniquely set by the operator.
SRD> I think Ben answered this.
>
>


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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--------------ms030409050800050407070400
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Hiya,

Please do continue the discussion all, but just on one aspect of
this...

On 04/05/16 19:18, Alissa Cooper wrote:
> Even if only a single application ever defines a priority scheme, a=20
> network where clients can=E2=80=99t be trusted could fall victim to an =

> attacker who inflates the priority of his traffic to try to prevent=20
> emergency calls/first responders from getting priority treatment.

My understanding of Diameter deployments is that they are pretty
much all done so that any node can play all sorts of games and
there are no protocol mechanisms other than hop-by-hop TLS or IPsec
to control that. I'm not even sure how much those are deployed, even
in cases where cryptographic keys are passed in Diameter messages.
(And that's when the base protocol spec says you MUST use TLS in
such cases. [1])

So DRMP and DOIC are by far not the most attractive target here.
The DIME WG are attempting to address that via [2] but I'm not
sure if we ought be hugely hopeful of that being implemented
or deployed either.

It might help if someone more familiar with deployments can
correct or confirm the above.

That doesn't affect the issue of potentially un-coordinated uses
of different priorities across multiple Diameter applications,
which seems like it is worth saying more about, but I'd have to
say that uses of DRMP as an attack vector aren't that compelling
from what I know, and the WG are attempting to at least document
mechanisms that would provide relevant protocol countermeasures
for the base protocol.

Cheers,
S.

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6733#section-13.3
[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req



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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On 5/4/16 1:18 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
> Responding to Steve because there is an issue here to unpack more, and 
> he quotes Lionel ...
>
>> On May 4, 2016, at 8:58 AM, Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com 
>> <mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Responding to both Alissa's comments and Lionel's responses.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 5/3/16 6:42 PM,lionel.morand@orange.comwrote:
>>> Hi Alissa,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your review.
>>> Please find below some clarifications, waiting for authors feeback.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Lionel
>>>
>>> EnvoyÃ© depuis Surface
>>>
>>> *De :* Alissa Cooper <mailto:alissa@cooperw.in>
>>> *EnvoyÃ© :* â€Žmardiâ€Ž â€Ž3â€Ž â€Žmaiâ€Ž â€Ž2016 â€Ž23â€Ž:â€Ž31
>>> *Ã€ :* iesg@ietf.org <mailto:iesg@ietf.org>
>>> *Cc :* draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org 
>>> <mailto:draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org>,Lionel MORAND 
>>> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>,dime-chairs@ietf.org 
>>> <mailto:dime-chairs@ietf.org>,Lionel MORAND 
>>> <mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>,dime@ietf.org <mailto:dime@ietf.org>
>>>
>>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
>>> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss
>>>
>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Please refer tohttps://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>
>>>
>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> DISCUSS:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> (1) Given the two key security threats identified in Section 11 -- that
>>> authorized nodes can issue requests with artificially high priority in
>>> order to get better treatment, and that unauthorized intermediaries can
>>> modify the priorities that senders set -- I don't see how it is
>>> legitimate to claim that either 5.1 or 5.2 are appropriate use cases for
>>> DRMP. The spec seems to assume that this mechanism will only be used in
>>> scenarios where nodes and agents have some out-of-band trust 
>>> relationship
>>> established with each other (the shepherd write-up talks about a 
>>> "trusted
>>> environment"), but that is certainly not the case in many disaster and
>>> emergency scenarios. If that really is a limitation on the scope of
>>> applicability of this mechanism, that should be stated in the document,
>>> and those use cases should either be removed or modified to explain the
>>> limitations on their applicability.
>>>
>>> [LM] I think that what is missing is that Diameter is mainly (if not 
>>> only) used in mobile operator networks. The text makes reference to 
>>> the RFC7683 where the overoload contgrol mechanism is introduced to 
>>> solve overload situations in telco networks. This additional 
>>> mechanism is seen as a complement of this overload control 
>>> mechanism. Now, if it is understood that it is a mechanism defined 
>>> for â€œtrusted environmentâ€ i.e. mobile networks, the use of priority 
>>> indications in emergency and disaster scenarios seems legitimate.
>> SRD> I would state it a little differently, but I agree that there 
>> needs to be some clarification here.  We intentionally did not 
>> specify how priorities are set in this document as those priorities 
>> need to take into account application specific knowledge. This 
>> document is, instead, focused on how priority information is 
>> transported and used by nodes receiving the priority.  The thing that 
>> is missing is a statement that this mechanism only works when the 
>> definition of priority values is done in a consistent manner for all 
>> applications used by a Diameter network.  It is my understanding that 
>> 3GPP will be defining priorities across its set of applications and 
>> that this will make sure that one application does not improperly 
>> take advantage of the mechanism at the expense of other 
>> applications.  I also expect that 3GPP will factor in the 5.1 and 5.2 
>> use cases when doing this work.
>
> Iâ€™m glad you pointed this out, because this is different from my 
> understanding of how DRMP is intended to be used. And I will admit to 
> not being super familiar with Diameter. I saw this in Section 4:
>
> "Note: There are a number of application specific definitions
>       indicating various views of application level priority for
>       different requests.  Using these application specific priority
>       Attribute Value Pairs (AVPs) as input to throttling and other
>       Diameter routing decisions would require Diameter agents to
>       understand all applications and do application specific parsing of
>       all messages in order to determine the priority of individual
>       messages.  This is considered an unacceptable level of complexity
>       to put on elements whose primary responsibility is to route
>       Diameter messages.â€
>
> I was thinking that the implication from this is that a Diameter agent 
> would be scoped such that it would only receive requests from clients 
> all using the same application. But you say that is not the case. If 
> an agent is supposed to make sense of priorities received from 
> multiple different applications, then it seems problematic for each 
> application to independently define its own priority semantics with 
> any expectation about what those semantics are supposed to effectuate. 
> For example, consider if people go off and work on the EAP application 
> and decide that they really only need two priority levels, so they 
> decide to use 10 and 11. Then people go off and work on the SIP 
> application and they decide they really only need two priority levels, 
> so they decide to use 1 and 2. Should all SIP application traffic 
> really always be prioritized over all EAP application traffic?
SRD> This is why I talked about a "priority scheme" and applications 
defining priorities in a consistent fashion.
>
>>
>> SRD> This does beg the question of whether or not we need to support 
>> interworking between multiple "DRMP priority schemes", where one 
>> Diameter network assumes priority scheme 1 and another assumes 
>> priority scheme 2 and the two priority schemes were defined 
>> completely independently.  The 3GPP priority definition would be an 
>> example of a priority scheme.  The mechanism, as currently defined, 
>> does not support this use case.
>>
>> SRD> We could fix this by using a name-space concept similar to that 
>> used by SIP.  Or we could say that this mechanism only works in a 
>> trusted environment.  The working group should decide which approach 
>> to take.
>
> I agree that some sort of fix is needed here. And Iâ€™m not sure that 
> the trusted environment thing is necessarily enough, because that 
> doesnâ€™t give guidance to those defining priority schemes about what 
> they need to do.
SRD> Agreed, its not enough to be a trusted environment.  There needs to 
be coordinated priority definition across all of the applications used 
in the environment.
>
> I also think this is a distinct issue from the one I raised about the 
> use cases and inability to trust clients. Even if only a single 
> application ever defines a priority scheme, a network where clients 
> canâ€™t be trusted could fall victim to an attacker who inflates the 
> priority of his traffic to try to prevent emergency calls/first 
> responders from getting priority treatment.
SRD> This is where the trusted environment comes in.  It's not an issue 
if all nodes are trusted.

SRD> We also need to factor in what it would take to starve the well 
behaving clients.  DRMP priority can be used to influence which messages 
are routed first or which messages are throttled first.  A misbehaving 
Diameter client would need to send enough messages to consume somewhere 
approaching 100% of the capacity of an agent to fully starve well 
behaving nodes.  This, to a large degree, boils down to a classical DOS 
attack.  DRMP maybe makes it a more effective DOS attack, but normal 
strategies for handling DOS attacks would be effective in dealing with a 
DRMP flavored DOS attack.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> (2) Section 6 says:
>>>
>>> "The mechanism for how the agent determines which requests are
>>> throttled is implementation dependent and is outside the scope of
>>> this document."
>>>
>>> How is a node supposed to determine how to set its priorities if each
>>> agent makes implementation-specific decisions about what those 
>>> priorities
>>> mean? I understood the document to be saying that Diameter applications
>>> would have to define what he priority levels mean within their own
>>> contexts, but then I would have expected the interpretation of 
>>> priorities
>>> amongst all nodes and agents implementing the same application to be the
>>> same.
>>>
>>> [LM] I understand. I think that the text should say â€œThe mechanism 
>>> for how the agent determines which requests are c(candidates) to be 
>>> throttledâ€. And, when there are requests to throttle, the priority 
>>> indication is used to determine â€œwhich requests to route first, 
>>> which requests to throttle and where the request is routed.  For 
>>> instance, requests with higher priority might have a lower 
>>> probability of being throttled. â€.
>> SRD> I agree with Lionel's suggestion here.
>
> WFM
>
>>>
>>> (3) Section 8 says:
>>>
>>>  "Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>>> value."
>>>
>>> If the determination of the priority schemes are all
>>> application-specific, how is it appropriate for this spec to define what
>>> the default priority should be for all applications? Shouldn't
>>> applications specify their own defaults?
>>>
>>> [LM] it is needed to take into account that the use of priority 
>>> indication in Diameter will be optional and that 
>>> legacy implementation will not include any priority indication in 
>>> Diameter requests. After discussion, it was decided that requests 
>>> without priority should be handled as with a priority set to 10. 
>>> This makes the difference with requests with an explicit lower 
>>> priorities and other with higher priorities. 10 is used as â€œaverageâ€ 
>>> priority, with the possibility of specific operator policies to use 
>>> another value.
>> SRD> As stated by Alexey in a separate email, I don't see the issue 
>> with a default value.  Alexey and Lionel have explained why, so I 
>> won't repeat.
>
> This ties into my interpretation described above, where I thought 
> agents would be handling requests specific to one application. I see 
> the value of this if they are handling requests from multiple 
> applications.
>
>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> COMMENT:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Section 11 says: "DRMP gives Diameter nodes the ability to influence
>>> which requests are throttled during overload scenarios." But the
>>> information is not limited to use during overload scenarios, and the 
>>> spec
>>> specifically allows its use for prioritized routing in absence of
>>> overload. This should be stated here too.
>>>
>>> [LM] right.
>> SRD> This is already addressed in the paragraph following the one above:
>>
>>    The DRMP mechanism can also be used to influence the order in which
>>    Diameter messages are handled by Diameter nodes.  The above attacks
>>    have a potentially greater impact in this scenario as the priority
>>    indication impacts the handling of all requests at all times,
>>    independent of the overload status of Diameter nodes in the Diameter
>>    network.
>
> Actually that is a bunch of paragraphs further down, in 11.1. I was 
> commenting on just the first sentence of 11. I know the reader can 
> keep reading and get to the part you quote, but I think itâ€™s important 
> not to gloss over the other uses of this in the intro to 11 either.
SRD> I see it now.  I have no objection to adding appropriate text to 
that paragraph.
>
> Alissa
>
>>>
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>>
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/4/16 1:18 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:74A5239A-329E-4F82-9FBF-497C9D906E89@cooperw.in"
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      <div class="">Responding to Steve because there is an issue here
        to unpack more, and he quotes Lionel ...</div>
      <br class="">
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">On May 4, 2016, at 8:58 AM, Steve Donovan &lt;<a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a></a>&gt;
            wrote:</div>
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          <div class=""><span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji',
              Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
              'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif;
              font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
              normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
              orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
              display: inline !important;" class="">Responding to both
              Alissa's comments and Lionel's responses.</span><br
              style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">Regards,</span><br
              style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">Steve</span><br style="font-family:
              'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft
              YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
              sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
              font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: 'Color
              Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
              'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif;
              font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
              normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
              orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">On 5/3/16 6:42 PM,<span
                class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><a
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a></a><span
                class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span>wrote:<br class="">
            </div>
            <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
              type="cite" style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri,
              'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft
              JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size:
              12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr"
                style="font-family: Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo,
                'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun
                Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">
                <div class="">Hi Alissa,</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Thank you for your review.</div>
                <div class="">Please find below some clarifications,
                  waiting for authors feeback.</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Regards,</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Lionel<br class="">
                </div>
                <div data-signatureblock="true" class="">
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  <div class="">EnvoyÃ© depuis Surface</div>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div style="padding-top: 5px; border-top-color: rgb(229,
                  229, 229); border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style:
                  solid;" class="">
                  <div class=""><font style="line-height: 15pt;
                      letter-spacing: 0.02em;" class="" face="
                      'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei
                      UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic',
                      'sans-serif'"><b class="">DeÂ :</b>Â <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:alissa@cooperw.in" target="_parent"
                        class="">Alissa Cooper</a><br class="">
                      <b class="">EnvoyÃ©Â :</b>Â â€Žmardiâ€Ž â€Ž3â€Ž â€Žmaiâ€Ž â€Ž2016
                      â€Ž23â€Ž:â€Ž31<br class="">
                      <b class="">Ã€ :</b>Â <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:iesg@ietf.org" target="_parent"
                        class="">iesg@ietf.org</a><br class="">
                      <b class="">CcÂ :</b>Â <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org"
                        target="_parent" class="">draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org</a>,<span
                        class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com"
                        target="_parent" class="">Lionel MORAND</a>,<span
                        class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dime-chairs@ietf.org"
                        target="_parent" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime-chairs@ietf.org">dime-chairs@ietf.org</a></a>,<span
                        class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com"
                        target="_parent" class="">Lionel MORAND</a>,<span
                        class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dime@ietf.org" target="_parent"
                        class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dime@ietf.org">dime@ietf.org</a></a></font></div>
                </div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div dir="" class="">
                  <div class="">Alissa Cooper has entered the following
                    ballot position for<br class="">
                    draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss<br class="">
                    <br class="">
                    When responding, please keep the subject line intact
                    and reply to all<br class="">
                    email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
                    (Feel free to cut this<br class="">
                    introductory paragraph, however.)<br class="">
                    <br class="">
                    <br class="">
                    Please refer to<span class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                      href="https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a></a><br
                      class="">
                    for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT
                    positions.<br class="">
                    <br class="">
                    <br class="">
                    The document, along with other ballot positions, can
                    be found here:<br class="">
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                      href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/</a><br
                      class="">
                    <br class="">
                    <br class="">
                    <br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br
                      class="">
                    DISCUSS:<br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br
                      class="">
                    <br class="">
                    (1) Given the two key security threats identified in
                    Section 11 -- that<br class="">
                    authorized nodes can issue requests with
                    artificially high priority in<br class="">
                    order to get better treatment, and that unauthorized
                    intermediaries can<br class="">
                    modify the priorities that senders set -- I don't
                    see how it is<br class="">
                    legitimate to claim that either 5.1 or 5.2 are
                    appropriate use cases for<br class="">
                    DRMP. The spec seems to assume that this mechanism
                    will only be used in<br class="">
                    scenarios where nodes and agents have some
                    out-of-band trust relationship<br class="">
                    established with each other (the shepherd write-up
                    talks about a "trusted<br class="">
                    environment"), but that is certainly not the case in
                    many disaster and<br class="">
                    emergency scenarios. If that really is a limitation
                    on the scope of<br class="">
                    applicability of this mechanism, that should be
                    stated in the document,<br class="">
                    and those use cases should either be removed or
                    modified to explain the<br class="">
                    limitations on their applicability.Â <span
                      class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><br class="">
                  </div>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  <div class="">[LM] I think that what is missing is
                    that Diameter is mainly (if not only) used in mobile
                    operator networks. The text makes reference to the
                    RFC7683 where the overoload contgrol mechanism is
                    introduced to solve overload situations in telco
                    networks. This additional mechanism is seen as a
                    complement ofÂ thisÂ overloadÂ control mechanism. Now,
                    if it is understood that it is a mechanism defined
                    forÂ â€œtrusted environmentâ€ i.e. mobile networks, the
                    use of priority indications in emergency and
                    disaster scenariosÂ seems legitimate.</div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">SRD&gt; I would state it a little
              differently, but I agree that there needs to be some
              clarification here.Â  We intentionally did not specify how
              priorities are set in this document as those priorities
              need to take into account application specific knowledge.Â 
              This document is, instead, focused on how priority
              information is transported and used by nodes receiving the
              priority.Â  The thing that is missing is a statement that
              this mechanism only works when the definition of priority
              values is done in a consistent manner for all applications
              used by a Diameter network.Â  It is my understanding that
              3GPP will be defining priorities across its set of
              applications and that this will make sure that one
              application does not improperly take advantage of the
              mechanism at the expense of other applications.Â  I also
              expect that 3GPP will factor in the 5.1 and 5.2 use cases
              when doing this work.</span><br style="font-family: 'Color
              Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
              'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif;
              font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
              normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
              orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>Iâ€™m glad you pointed this out, because this is different
          from my understanding of how DRMP is intended to be used. And
          I will admit to not being super familiar with Diameter. I saw
          this in Section 4:</div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>
          <div>"Note: There are a number of application specific
            definitions</div>
          <div>Â  Â  Â  indicating various views of application level
            priority for</div>
          <div>Â  Â  Â  different requests. Â Using these application
            specific priority</div>
          <div>Â  Â  Â  Attribute Value Pairs (AVPs) as input to throttling
            and other</div>
          <div>Â  Â  Â  Diameter routing decisions would require Diameter
            agents to</div>
          <div>Â  Â  Â  understand all applications and do application
            specific parsing of</div>
          <div>Â  Â  Â  all messages in order to determine the priority of
            individual</div>
          <div>Â  Â  Â  messages. Â This is considered an unacceptable level
            of complexity</div>
          <div>Â  Â  Â  to put on elements whose primary responsibility is
            to route</div>
          <div>Â  Â  Â  Diameter messages.â€</div>
          <div><br class="">
          </div>
          <div>I was thinking that the implication from this is that a
            Diameter agent would be scoped such that it would only
            receive requests from clients all using the same
            application. But you say that is not the case. If an agent
            is supposed to make sense of priorities received from
            multiple different applications, then it seems problematic
            for each application to independently define its own
            priority semantics with any expectation about what those
            semantics are supposed to effectuate. For example, consider
            if people go off and work on the EAP application and decide
            that they really only need two priority levels, so they
            decide to use 10 and 11. Then people go off and work on the
            SIP application and they decide they really only need two
            priority levels, so they decide to use 1 and 2. Should all
            SIP application traffic really always be prioritized over
            all EAP application traffic?</div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; This is why I talked about a "priority scheme" and
    applications defining priorities in a consistent fashion.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:74A5239A-329E-4F82-9FBF-497C9D906E89@cooperw.in"
      type="cite">
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class=""><br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri,
              'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft
              JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size:
              12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">SRD&gt; This does beg the question
              of whether or not we need to support interworking between
              multiple "DRMP priority schemes", where one Diameter
              network assumes priority scheme 1 and another assumes
              priority scheme 2 and the two priority schemes were
              defined completely independently.Â  The 3GPP priority
              definition would be an example of a priority scheme.Â  The
              mechanism, as currently defined, does not support this use
              case.</span><br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji',
              Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
              'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif;
              font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
              normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
              orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
            <br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">SRD&gt; We could fix this by using a
              name-space concept similar to that used by SIP.Â  Or we
              could say that this mechanism only works in a trusted
              environment.Â  The working group should decide which
              approach to take.</span><br style="font-family: 'Color
              Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
              'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif;
              font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
              normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
              orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>I agree that some sort of fix is needed here. And Iâ€™m not
          sure that the trusted environment thing is necessarily enough,
          because that doesnâ€™t give guidance to those defining priority
          schemes about what they need to do.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; Agreed, its not enough to be a trusted environment.Â  There
    needs to be coordinated priority definition across all of the
    applications used in the environment.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:74A5239A-329E-4F82-9FBF-497C9D906E89@cooperw.in"
      type="cite">
      <div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>I also think this is a distinct issue from the one I raised
          about the use cases and inability to trust clients. Even if
          only a single application ever defines a priority scheme, a
          network where clients canâ€™t be trusted could fall victim to an
          attacker who inflates the priority of his traffic to try to
          prevent emergency calls/first responders from getting priority
          treatment.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; This is where the trusted environment comes in.Â  It's not an
    issue if all nodes are trusted.Â  <br>
    <br>
    SRD&gt; We also need to factor in what it would take to starve the
    well behaving clients.Â  DRMP priority can be used to influence which
    messages are routed first or which messages are throttled first.Â  A
    misbehaving Diameter client would need to send enough messages to
    consume somewhere approaching 100% of the capacity of an agent to
    fully starve well behaving nodes.Â  This, to a large degree, boils
    down to a classical DOS attack.Â  DRMP maybe makes it a more
    effective DOS attack, but normal strategies for handling DOS attacks
    would be effective in dealing with a DRMP flavored DOS attack.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:74A5239A-329E-4F82-9FBF-497C9D906E89@cooperw.in"
      type="cite">
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class=""><br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri,
              'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft
              JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size:
              12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
            <br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
              type="cite" style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri,
              'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft
              JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size:
              12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr"
                style="font-family: Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo,
                'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun
                Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">
                <div dir="" class="">
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                    (2) Section 6 says:<br class="">
                    <br class="">
                    Â Â Â <span class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span>"The
                    mechanism for how the agent determines which
                    requests are<br class="">
                    Â Â Â Â Â Â <span class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span>throttled
                    is implementation dependent and is outside the scope
                    of<br class="">
                    Â Â Â Â Â Â <span class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span>this
                    document."<br class="">
                    <br class="">
                    How is a node supposed to determine how to set its
                    priorities if each<br class="">
                    agent makes implementation-specific decisions about
                    what those priorities<br class="">
                    mean? I understood the document to be saying that
                    Diameter applications<br class="">
                    would have to define what he priority levels mean
                    within their own<br class="">
                    contexts, but then I would have expected the
                    interpretation of priorities<br class="">
                    amongst all nodes and agents implementing the same
                    application to be the<br class="">
                    same.<span class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><br
                      class="">
                  </div>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  <div class="">[LM] I understand. I think that the text
                    should sayÂ â€œThe mechanism for how the agent
                    determines which requests are c(candidates) to be
                    throttledâ€. And, when there are requests to
                    throttle,Â the priority indication is used to
                    determineÂ â€œwhich requests to route first, which
                    requests to throttle and where the request is
                    routed.Â  For instance, requests with higherÂ 
                    priority might have a lower probability of being
                    throttled. â€.</div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">SRD&gt; I agree with Lionel's
              suggestion here.</span><br style="font-family: 'Color
              Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
              'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif;
              font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
              normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
              orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>WFM</div>
        <br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
              type="cite" style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri,
              'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft
              JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size:
              12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr"
                style="font-family: Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo,
                'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun
                Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">
                <div dir="" class="">
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                    (3) Section 8 says:<span
                      class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><br class="">
                    <br class="">
                    Â "Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority
                    as this default<br class="">
                    value."<br class="">
                    Â Â <span class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><br
                      class="">
                    If the determination of the priority schemes are all<br
                      class="">
                    application-specific, how is it appropriate for this
                    spec to define what<br class="">
                    the default priority should be for all applications?
                    Shouldn't<br class="">
                    applications specify their own defaults?<br class="">
                  </div>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  <div class="">[LM] it is needed to take into account
                    that the use of priority indication in Diameter will
                    be optional and that legacyÂ implementation will not
                    include any priority indication in Diameter
                    requests. After discussion, it was decided that
                    requests without priority should be handled as with
                    a priority set to 10. This makes the difference with
                    requests with an explicit lower priorities and other
                    with higher priorities. 10 is used asÂ â€œaverageâ€
                    priority, with the possibility of specific operator
                    policies to use another value.<span
                      class="Apple-converted-space">Â </span><br class="">
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">SRD&gt; As stated by Alexey in a
              separate email, I don't see the issue with a default
              value.Â  Alexey and Lionel have explained why, so I won't
              repeat.</span><br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji',
              Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI',
              'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif;
              font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
              normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
              orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>This ties into my interpretation described above, where I
          thought agents would be handling requests specific to one
          application. I see the value of this if they are handling
          requests from multiple applications.</div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
              type="cite" style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri,
              'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft
              JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size:
              12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr"
                style="font-family: Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo,
                'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun
                Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">
                <div dir="" class="">
                  <div class=""><br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br
                      class="">
                    COMMENT:<br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br
                      class="">
                    <br class="">
                    Section 11 says: "DRMP gives Diameter nodes the
                    ability to influence<br class="">
                    which requests are throttled during overload
                    scenarios." But the<br class="">
                    information is not limited to use during overload
                    scenarios, and the spec<br class="">
                    specifically allows its use for prioritized routing
                    in absence of<br class="">
                    overload. This should be stated here too.<br
                      class="">
                  </div>
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                  <div class="">[LM] right.<br class="">
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">SRD&gt; This is already addressed in
              the paragraph following the one above:</span><br
              style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">Â Â  The DRMP mechanism can also be
              used to influence the order in which</span><br
              style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">Â Â  Diameter messages are handled by
              Diameter nodes.Â  The above attacks</span><br
              style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">Â Â  have a potentially greater impact
              in this scenario as the priority</span><br
              style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">Â Â  indication impacts the handling
              of all requests at all times,</span><br
              style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">Â Â  independent of the overload
              status of Diameter nodes in the Diameter</span><br
              style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
            <span style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe
              UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei
              UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
              font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
              !important;" class="">Â Â  network.</span><br
              style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
              'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-style:
              normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
              letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
              text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
              normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
              -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
              255, 255);" class="">
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>Actually that is a bunch of paragraphs further down, in
          11.1. I was commenting on just the first sentence of 11. I
          know the reader can keep reading and get to the part you
          quote, but I think itâ€™s important not to gloss over the other
          uses of this in the intro to 11 either.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    SRD&gt; I see it now.Â  I have no objection to adding appropriate
    text to that paragraph.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:74A5239A-329E-4F82-9FBF-497C9D906E89@cooperw.in"
      type="cite">
      <div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>Alissa</div>
        <br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <blockquote
cite="mid:8354_1462318968_57293778_8354_15408_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01E4C8AE@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup"
              type="cite" style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri,
              'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft
              JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size:
              12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
              font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
              auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
              none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
              0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
              rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <div data-externalstyle="false" dir="ltr"
                style="font-family: Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo,
                'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun
                Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">
                <div dir="" class="">
                  <div class=""><br class="">
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <pre class="">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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            <br style="font-family: 'Color Emoji', Calibri, 'Segoe UI',
              Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI',
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--------------080103000406010403030903--


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Subject: [Dime] New Liaison Statement, "LS to IETF for clarification on RFC 4006 for Diameter Base Protocol"
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Title: LS to IETF for clarification on RFC 4006 for Diameter Base Protocol
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Please reply by 2016-05-23
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    LS to IETF for clarification on RFC 4006 for Diameter Base Protocol
    https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2016-05-04-3gpp-tsg-sa-wg5-dime-ls-to-ietf-for-clarification-on-rfc-4006-for-diameter-base-protocol-attachment-1.doc


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From: "Ben Campbell" <ben@nostrum.com>
To: "Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "The IESG" <iesg@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 22:58:01 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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(oops, sent this earlier, but it just went to Steve. Resending to full 
list)

Thanks for the quick response. Further discussion inline:

Ben.

On 4 May 2016, at 11:25, Steve Donovan wrote:

[...]

>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I have a few concerns that I think need some discussion.
>>
>> 1) Priority between applications: The fact that agents can apply 
>> priority
>> for messages from multiple applications without knowledge of those
>> applications seems dangerous. Let's say application A is a critical
>> infrastructure application, and application B is not. But clients for
>> application B might set requests to have a higher priority than do
>> clients for application A.  Further, application B could become a DoS
>> vector for application A. One potential (and likely half-baked) way 
>> to
>> mitigate this would be to say that nodes that are not "application 
>> aware"
>> can only apply priority among messages for the same application.
> SRD> This is similar to saying that priority setting across 
> applications need to be set in a consistent way.  We might need to 
> define the "priority scheme" or some similar concept as sketched out 
> in my response to Alissa's DISCUSS.

That would probably help. Am I correct in assuming that would require 
some WG discussion?
It occurs to me after sleeping on it that, in congestion cases, this 
would leave things no worse than when a relay agent throttles requests 
with even less information. But it's a little more worrisome when used 
in non-congested circumstances, assuming they leave the possibility of 
throttling or otherwise rejecting requests under normal processing 
conditions.

>>
>> 2) Priority between clients of the same application: If you have 
>> multiple
>> clients for the same application, don't they need to use the same
>> prioritization strategy? How is this to be managed?
> SRD> It is not directly defined.  This is back to the question of 
> whether or not the mechanism is constrained to only work in a trusted 
> environment.

The potential "priority scheme" might help here. But why does a trusted 
environment matter? Lets say you have trusted clients from vender A and 
from vendor B, but they select priorities differently?

>>
>> 3) Out of order requests: The draft explicitly allows agents to 
>> re-route
>> and even explicitly re-order messages. Is it safe to have a
>> non-application aware node change the order of messages?
> SRD> This mechanism doesn't change the need for Diameter nodes to 
> handle messages arriving out of order.  This exists in any protocol 
> that has agents/proxies.

Okay, I will withdraw that part. (How quick one forgets...)

>>
>> 4) I am nervous about the idea that clients and servers would use a
>> generic message priority mechanism to manage the allocation of 
>> resources
>> that result from a requests and answers. It seems like that should be
>> based on application specific rules and information. (Now, if the 
>> point
>> is that these same AVPs might be used in an application according to
>> application specific rules, that might be okay--but then you might 
>> run
>> into issues where application-agnostic agents don't know the 
>> difference.)
> SRD> The definition of what different priority levels mean will 
> reflect the application specific knowledge.  Agents just route 
> requests and with the introduction of DOIC, sometimes throttle them.  
> The agent doesn't need anything but the priority value, as long as the 
> priority values are defined consistently across all applications.

My concern was more about client and server behavior, but it may be 
impacted by relays. I assume that a relay agent would not be making 
decisions about resource allocation, at least beyond transactions state.

My concern is twofold: In the case of servers, this seems to give a 
server leave to send a successful answer, but not allocate any necessary 
resources to support that success. This seems to lead to circumstances 
where the server thinks something failed but the client thinks it 
worked. (I have no problem with saying that a resource-constrained 
server might include priority as a factor in it's decisions about which 
requests to reject.)

In the case of clients, I think we are talking about a client abandoning 
some task even though the server thinks it worked. I don't see that as a 
problem per se, but I would expect a server to do that based on some 
local knowledge of priority. It seems a stretch that it would do so 
based on a priority value inserted by the server. But even if that makes 
sense, I understand that this draft allows relay agents with no 
knowledge of the application semantics to insert, remove, or change 
priority values in answer messages. (Maybe the answer here is stricter 
guidance on when relay agents can change priority values, and allowing 
the client to ignore priority values in answers (especially success 
answers)



>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> General: I approached this assuming prioritization would matter only 
>> in
>> overload scenarios. But I gather you envision using this in 
>> non-overload
>> scenarios? (This interacts with my discuss point about the use of 
>> DRMP to
>> prioritize resource allocation that result result from successful
>> diameter transactions.) Use case 5.3 is a bit worrisome in this 
>> context.
> SRD> I don't understand the concern.

I'm concerned that this could effectively induce overload for lower 
priority messages, when the nodes would normally be able to handle all 
messages. In use case 5.3, does the platinum customer buy the right to 
cause other customer's requests to fail?


>>
>>
>> -6, list item 4: Are there really use cases for answer senders to set 
>> a
>> different priority on the answer than was on the request? That seems 
>> to
>> add quite a bit of complexity.
> SRD> This was an explicit conversation within the working group. I 
> don't recall the specific use case off the top of my head, but this 
> was changed to the current wording after discussions within the 
> working group.  I can go back to the email archive to refresh my 
> memory if necessary.

I am willing to accede to working group consensus on this. But one 
question: Does this apply to answers that indicate success, as well as 
failure?

>>
>> - 6, list item 8: I'm not sure what it means for a client to 
>> prioritize
>> answers to it's own requests.
> SRD> The client could choose to complete the transaction, and initiate 
> other dependent actions, based on the priority received in the answer 
> message.  It is those dependent actions -- setting up a data channel, 
> authorizing call completion, etc -- that would be impacted by the 
> priorities received in the answer.

See the comments on item 4 from my discuss.

>>
>> -8,  "Diameter nodes SHOULD
>>     include Diameter routing message priority in the DRMP AVP in all
>>     Diameter request messages." :
>> Does that apply to all nodes that touch a request, or just the 
>> request
>> originator?
> SRD> This statement was meant to apply to the request originator.  The 
> statement should be updated.

Okay.

>>
>> -- "Diameter nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP
>> carried in the answer message, if it exists."
>> The MUST seems odd, since paying attention to the priority in the 
>> initial
>> request was only SHOULD.
> SRD> The wording here is cumbersome.  The full paragraph is as 
> follows:
>
>    When determining the priority to apply to answer messages, Diameter
>    nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP carried in 
> the
>    answer message, if it exists.  Otherwise, the Diameter node MUST 
> use
>    the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP of the associated request
>    message.
>
> This is meant to say that a Diameter node receiving an answer message 
> MUST use the priority value in the answer message when processing the 
> message.  If there is no DRMP AVP in the answer message then the 
> receiving node uses the priority that was in the request message.  I'd 
> be happy to re-craft this to be more clear.

Part of my concern is that the MUST vs SHOULD bit is different for 
requests and answers. statements of the form "If you use the mechanism, 
you MUST do X" do not mean the same as "SHOULD do X", even if the 
reasoning behind the SHOULD is that a node might not use the mechanism.

>>
>> -- "Another is to use the Proxy-Info
>>        mechanism defined in [RFC6733].":
>> That probably needs some elaboration.
> SRD> A reference to the document that defines Proxy-Info isn't 
> sufficient?

On a re-read, it's probably good enough, although on reflection, I don't 
think this draft needs to tell relay agents how to manage transaction 
state. But it doesn't hurt either way.


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From: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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> On May 4, 2016, at 11:53 AM, Stephen Farrell =
<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hiya,
>=20
> Please do continue the discussion all, but just on one aspect of
> this...
>=20
> On 04/05/16 19:18, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>> Even if only a single application ever defines a priority scheme, a=20=

>> network where clients can=E2=80=99t be trusted could fall victim to =
an=20
>> attacker who inflates the priority of his traffic to try to prevent=20=

>> emergency calls/first responders from getting priority treatment.
>=20
> My understanding of Diameter deployments is that they are pretty
> much all done so that any node can play all sorts of games and
> there are no protocol mechanisms other than hop-by-hop TLS or IPsec
> to control that. I'm not even sure how much those are deployed, even
> in cases where cryptographic keys are passed in Diameter messages.
> (And that's when the base protocol spec says you MUST use TLS in
> such cases. [1])
>=20
> So DRMP and DOIC are by far not the most attractive target here.

But my point was specifically about how the motivation for DRMP is tied =
to the first responder and emergency use cases. When a capability is =
defined specifically for those uses, people (or, say, regulators) tend =
to expect it to work. So if there is a class of cases where it won=E2=80=99=
t work at all =E2=80=94 even if the net effect is just that requests get =
treated on a best efforts basis the same as they do today, not that some =
requests get starved =E2=80=94 it=E2=80=99s worth being very explicit =
about that. I=E2=80=99m sure there are other attacks that could target =
these uses in the absence of DRMP, but that isn=E2=80=99t a reason to =
gloss over the DRMP-specific issue in this spec.

Alissa

> The DIME WG are attempting to address that via [2] but I'm not
> sure if we ought be hugely hopeful of that being implemented
> or deployed either.
>=20
> It might help if someone more familiar with deployments can
> correct or confirm the above.
>=20
> That doesn't affect the issue of potentially un-coordinated uses
> of different priorities across multiple Diameter applications,
> which seems like it is worth saying more about, but I'd have to
> say that uses of DRMP as an attack vector aren't that compelling
> from what I know, and the WG are attempting to at least document
> mechanisms that would provide relevant protocol countermeasures
> for the base protocol.
>=20
> Cheers,
> S.
>=20
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6733#section-13.3
> [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req
>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On 05/05/16 05:31, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>=20
>> On May 4, 2016, at 11:53 AM, Stephen Farrell
>> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hiya,
>>=20
>> Please do continue the discussion all, but just on one aspect of=20
>> this...
>>=20
>> On 04/05/16 19:18, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>>> Even if only a single application ever defines a priority scheme,
>>> a network where clients can=E2=80=99t be trusted could fall victim to=
 an
>>>  attacker who inflates the priority of his traffic to try to
>>> prevent emergency calls/first responders from getting priority
>>> treatment.
>>=20
>> My understanding of Diameter deployments is that they are pretty=20
>> much all done so that any node can play all sorts of games and=20
>> there are no protocol mechanisms other than hop-by-hop TLS or
>> IPsec to control that. I'm not even sure how much those are
>> deployed, even in cases where cryptographic keys are passed in
>> Diameter messages. (And that's when the base protocol spec says you
>> MUST use TLS in such cases. [1])
>>=20
>> So DRMP and DOIC are by far not the most attractive target here.
>=20
> But my point was specifically about how the motivation for DRMP is
> tied to the first responder and emergency use cases. When a
> capability is defined specifically for those uses, people (or, say,
> regulators) tend to expect it to work. So if there is a class of
> cases where it won=E2=80=99t work at all =E2=80=94 even if the net effe=
ct is just
> that requests get treated on a best efforts basis the same as they do
> today, not that some requests get starved =E2=80=94 it=E2=80=99s worth =
being very
> explicit about that. I=E2=80=99m sure there are other attacks that coul=
d
> target these uses in the absence of DRMP, but that isn=E2=80=99t a reas=
on to
> gloss over the DRMP-specific issue in this spec.

Sure. But I'm not clear what's being glossed over. If what you mean
is that some more text is needed in section 11 to discuss emergency
use cases, that'd be fine, (and suggestions welcome) but I thought
that that potential attack was covered there already, even if not
explicitly called out.

Cheers,
S.

>=20
> Alissa
>=20
>> The DIME WG are attempting to address that via [2] but I'm not sure
>> if we ought be hugely hopeful of that being implemented or deployed
>> either.
>>=20
>> It might help if someone more familiar with deployments can correct
>> or confirm the above.
>>=20
>> That doesn't affect the issue of potentially un-coordinated uses of
>> different priorities across multiple Diameter applications, which
>> seems like it is worth saying more about, but I'd have to say that
>> uses of DRMP as an attack vector aren't that compelling from what I
>> know, and the WG are attempting to at least document mechanisms
>> that would provide relevant protocol countermeasures for the base
>> protocol.
>>=20
>> Cheers, S.
>>=20
>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6733#section-13.3 [2]
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 05:54 PM, Gunn, Janet P wrote:
> Conceptually, that (2 queues) approach DOES correspond to assigning a
> default priority.
>=20
> In that particular case, you are assigning the "unknown priority"
> messages to  particlar priority value( a value that is not used by the
> messages with "known priority") and then establishing a separate queue=20
> for THAT priority value.

+1.

> I am not sure whether it is a "good idea" or not, but it certainly fits
> within the constraints of a "default priority".

Mirja, I don't think you articulated your concern well. What the
document suggests is what other similar system use. I never heard about
any problems. Which of course doesn't mean that there are no problems
;-).

> Janet
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 11:51 AM
> To: Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>
> Cc: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>;
> draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; dime@ietf.org; The
> IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drm=
p-05:
> (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>=20
> Hi Janet,
>=20
> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
>=20
> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving two
> queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) solutions =
to this
> problem as well.
>=20
> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my point of
> view and can actually hurt the systems.
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20=20
> > Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
> >=20
> > My comment below.
> > Janet
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja Kuehlewind=
 (IETF)
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
> > To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
> > Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; dime@ietf.org;=
 The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-d=
rmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> >=20
> > Hi Alexey,
> >=20
> > see below.
> >=20
> > The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower priority=
, you are okay to be starved. However, if you don=E2=80=99t indicate anythi=
ng (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is possible to do so=
), you might have the same or even a higher priority, and in this case it=
=E2=80=99s not okay to be starved.
> >=20
> > Mirja
> > <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system which ser=
ves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific mechanisms)you h=
ave two options
> > 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
> > 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this arbitrary va=
lue the "default priority")
> >=20
> > You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what that =
arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different sytems/applications might=
 have different "default values".
> >=20
> > But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message comes=
 in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
> >=20
> > </JPG>
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > DiME mailing list
> > DiME@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> >=20
> > This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA tha=
t may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The infor=
mation in this message is intended only for use by the individual(s) to who=
m it is addressed. If you believe you have received this message in error, =
please contact me immediately and be aware that any use, disclosure, copyin=
g or distribution of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. N=
OTE: Regardless of content, this email shall not operate to bind CSRA to an=
y order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or =
government initiative expressly permitting the use of email for such purpos=
e.
>=20


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From: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> (IETF), "Gunn, Janet P" <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>
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Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 13:26:29 +0100
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Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org, dime-chairs@ietf.org, dime@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Mirja,

On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 04:50 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Hi Janet,
>=20
> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
>=20
> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving two
> queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) solutions =
to this
> problem as well.
>=20
> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my point of
> view and can actually hurt the systems.

Can you please explain? (The default priority is not really arbitrary,
so I want to understand why assigning a value in the middle of the
allowed range is not Ok).

Thank you,
Alexey
=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20=20
> > Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
> >=20
> > My comment below.
> > Janet
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja Kuehlewind=
 (IETF)
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
> > To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
> > Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; dime@ietf.org;=
 The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-d=
rmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> >=20
> > Hi Alexey,
> >=20
> > see below.
> >=20
> > The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower priority=
, you are okay to be starved. However, if you don=E2=80=99t indicate anythi=
ng (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is possible to do so=
), you might have the same or even a higher priority, and in this case it=
=E2=80=99s not okay to be starved.
> >=20
> > Mirja
> > <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system which ser=
ves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific mechanisms)you h=
ave two options
> > 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
> > 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this arbitrary va=
lue the "default priority")
> >=20
> > You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what that =
arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different sytems/applications might=
 have different "default values".
> >=20
> > But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message comes=
 in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
> >=20
> > </JPG>
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > DiME mailing list
> > DiME@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> >=20
> > This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA tha=
t may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The infor=
mation in this message is intended only for use by the individual(s) to who=
m it is addressed. If you believe you have received this message in error, =
please contact me immediately and be aware that any use, disclosure, copyin=
g or distribution of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. N=
OTE: Regardless of content, this email shall not operate to bind CSRA to an=
y order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or =
government initiative expressly permitting the use of email for such purpos=
e.
>=20


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From: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> (IETF), "Gunn, Janet P" <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>
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Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 13:32:10 +0100
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/ClcW632kcfwExsSAtZtrgasr0-E>
Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org, dime-chairs@ietf.org, dime@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Mirja,

On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 04:50 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Hi Janet,
>=20
> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
>=20
> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving two
> queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) solutions =
to this
> problem as well.
>=20
> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my point of
> view and can actually hurt the systems.

I hope this will help to clarify things:

One point of assigning default priority is that as this is an extension,
there is a desire to avoid upgrading all clients on the network, as that
would be effectively trying to deploy a new protocol. Consider a network
where proxies and servers understand this extension and none of the
clients do. Then default priority would be assigned to all traffic and
the behaviour of the system is unchanged from the case when the
extension is not deployed. The default priority only makes a difference
if there is a mixture of clients implementing this extension and clients
that don't.

Best Regards,
Alexey

> Mirja
>=20
>=20=20
> > Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
> >=20
> > My comment below.
> > Janet
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja Kuehlewind=
 (IETF)
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
> > To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
> > Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; dime@ietf.org;=
 The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-d=
rmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> >=20
> > Hi Alexey,
> >=20
> > see below.
> >=20
> > The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower priority=
, you are okay to be starved. However, if you don=E2=80=99t indicate anythi=
ng (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is possible to do so=
), you might have the same or even a higher priority, and in this case it=
=E2=80=99s not okay to be starved.
> >=20
> > Mirja
> > <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system which ser=
ves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific mechanisms)you h=
ave two options
> > 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
> > 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this arbitrary va=
lue the "default priority")
> >=20
> > You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what that =
arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different sytems/applications might=
 have different "default values".
> >=20
> > But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message comes=
 in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
> >=20
> > </JPG>
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > DiME mailing list
> > DiME@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> >=20
> > This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA tha=
t may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The infor=
mation in this message is intended only for use by the individual(s) to who=
m it is addressed. If you believe you have received this message in error, =
please contact me immediately and be aware that any use, disclosure, copyin=
g or distribution of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. N=
OTE: Regardless of content, this email shall not operate to bind CSRA to an=
y order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or =
government initiative expressly permitting the use of email for such purpos=
e.
>=20


From nobody Thu May  5 06:20:29 2016
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From: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
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Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 06:19:57 -0700
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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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> On May 5, 2016, at 1:00 AM, Stephen Farrell =
<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 05/05/16 05:31, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>>=20
>>> On May 4, 2016, at 11:53 AM, Stephen Farrell
>>> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Hiya,
>>>=20
>>> Please do continue the discussion all, but just on one aspect of=20
>>> this...
>>>=20
>>> On 04/05/16 19:18, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>>>> Even if only a single application ever defines a priority scheme,
>>>> a network where clients can=E2=80=99t be trusted could fall victim =
to an
>>>> attacker who inflates the priority of his traffic to try to
>>>> prevent emergency calls/first responders from getting priority
>>>> treatment.
>>>=20
>>> My understanding of Diameter deployments is that they are pretty=20
>>> much all done so that any node can play all sorts of games and=20
>>> there are no protocol mechanisms other than hop-by-hop TLS or
>>> IPsec to control that. I'm not even sure how much those are
>>> deployed, even in cases where cryptographic keys are passed in
>>> Diameter messages. (And that's when the base protocol spec says you
>>> MUST use TLS in such cases. [1])
>>>=20
>>> So DRMP and DOIC are by far not the most attractive target here.
>>=20
>> But my point was specifically about how the motivation for DRMP is
>> tied to the first responder and emergency use cases. When a
>> capability is defined specifically for those uses, people (or, say,
>> regulators) tend to expect it to work. So if there is a class of
>> cases where it won=E2=80=99t work at all =E2=80=94 even if the net =
effect is just
>> that requests get treated on a best efforts basis the same as they do
>> today, not that some requests get starved =E2=80=94 it=E2=80=99s =
worth being very
>> explicit about that. I=E2=80=99m sure there are other attacks that =
could
>> target these uses in the absence of DRMP, but that isn=E2=80=99t a =
reason to
>> gloss over the DRMP-specific issue in this spec.
>=20
> Sure. But I'm not clear what's being glossed over. If what you mean
> is that some more text is needed in section 11 to discuss emergency
> use cases, that'd be fine, (and suggestions welcome) but I thought
> that that potential attack was covered there already, even if not
> explicitly called out.

I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in order =
for priority information to be reliably usable in the way that use cases =
5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and consuming it must =
have pre-established trust relationships of the sort described in =
Section 11.

Alissa

>=20
> Cheers,
> S.
>=20
>>=20
>> Alissa
>>=20
>>> The DIME WG are attempting to address that via [2] but I'm not sure
>>> if we ought be hugely hopeful of that being implemented or deployed
>>> either.
>>>=20
>>> It might help if someone more familiar with deployments can correct
>>> or confirm the above.
>>>=20
>>> That doesn't affect the issue of potentially un-coordinated uses of
>>> different priorities across multiple Diameter applications, which
>>> seems like it is worth saying more about, but I'd have to say that
>>> uses of DRMP as an attack vector aren't that compelling from what I
>>> know, and the WG are attempting to at least document mechanisms
>>> that would provide relevant protocol countermeasures for the base
>>> protocol.
>>>=20
>>> Cheers, S.
>>>=20
>>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6733#section-13.3 [2]
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On 05/05/16 14:19, Alissa Cooper wrote:
> I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in
> order for priority information to be reliably usable in the way that
> use cases 5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and
> consuming it must have pre-established trust relationships of the
> sort described in Section 11.

Sounds reasonable to me. Authors?

S.


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From: <lionel.morand@orange.com>
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Was also my proposal. Fine for me.

Envoy=E9 de mon Orange Nura 2

Le 5 mai 2016 15:22, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> a =E9crit :


On 05/05/16 14:19, Alissa Cooper wrote:
> I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in
> order for priority information to be reliably usable in the way that
> use cases 5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and
> consuming it must have pre-established trust relationships of the
> sort described in Section 11.

Sounds reasonable to me. Authors?

S.


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<p dir=3D"ltr">Was also my proposal. Fine for me. <br>
<br>
Envoy=E9 de mon Orange Nura 2</p>
<div class=3D"x_quote">Le 5 mai 2016 15:22, Stephen Farrell &lt;stephen.far=
rell@cs.tcd.ie&gt; a =E9crit :<br type=3D"attribution">
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<br>
On 05/05/16 14:19, Alissa Cooper wrote:<br>
&gt; I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in<br>
&gt; order for priority information to be reliably usable in the way that<b=
r>
&gt; use cases 5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and<br>
&gt; consuming it must have pre-established trust relationships of the<br>
&gt; sort described in Section 11.<br>
<br>
Sounds reasonable to me. Authors?<br>
<br>
S.<br>
<br>
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From nobody Thu May  5 07:36:29 2016
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I'm okay with this addition.

Steve


On May 5, 2016 8:21:22 AM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

>
>
> On 05/05/16 14:19, Alissa Cooper wrote:
> > I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in
> > order for priority information to be reliably usable in the way that
> > use cases 5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and
> > consuming it must have pre-established trust relationships of the
> > sort described in Section 11.
>
> Sounds reasonable to me. Authors?
>
> S.
>



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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Great. I think we're maybe at the point where pushing out a
revised I-D that has the fixes we now know we want would be a
good plan and then we can go back around the discuss holders
and see where we're at.

Make sense? If not, then please continue the discussion to
get us there.

Cheers,
S.

On 05/05/16 15:25, Steve Donovan wrote:
> I'm okay with this addition.
>=20
> Steve
>=20
>=20
> On May 5, 2016 8:21:22 AM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
> wrote:
>=20
>>
>>
>> On 05/05/16 14:19, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>> > I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in
>> > order for priority information to be reliably usable in the way that=

>> > use cases 5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and
>> > consuming it must have pre-established trust relationships of the
>> > sort described in Section 11.
>>
>> Sounds reasonable to me. Authors?
>>
>> S.
>>
>=20
>=20


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From nobody Thu May  5 08:02:21 2016
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From: "Gunn, Janet P" <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>
To: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 14:54:24 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Looks good to me.

Janet

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Donovan
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 10:26 AM
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>; Alissa Cooper <alissa@coop=
erw.in>
Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; dime@ietf.org; IES=
G <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (wi=
th DISCUSS and COMMENT)

I'm okay with this addition.

Steve


On May 5, 2016 8:21:22 AM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote=
:

>
>
> On 05/05/16 14:19, Alissa Cooper wrote:
> > I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in
> > order for priority information to be reliably usable in the way that
> > use cases 5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and
> > consuming it must have pre-established trust relationships of the
> > sort described in Section 11.
>
> Sounds reasonable to me. Authors?
>
> S.
>


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Cc: Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>, 3GPPLiaison@etsi.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] New Liaison Statement, "LS to IETF for clarification on RFC 4006 for Diameter Base Protocol"
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Folks,

Have a look at the LS we recently received from the 3GPP SA5. Looking at 
our charter and what we have discussed recently updating RFC4006 is not 
likely.. unless someone volunteers to take a ball on it asap.

I have not read RFC4006 for a long time so my memory might serve me 
wrong. The immediate things to look into when responding to this LS 
(assuming we would only give recommendations) relate to security. 
RFC4006 AVPs seems to care about the AVL 'P' bit setting and 'Encr'. 
Since both of these are deprecated in RFC6733 we better say something 
about that.

Another thing, which is outside the LS scope, though, is the CCA CCF. 
Here I am referring to the discussion in Buenos Aires on the answer 
message when 'E' bit is set.

Any thoughts? We have about a week to prepare the reply LS. The due date 
is 23rd May.

- Jouni


5/4/2016, 5:04 PM, Liaison Statement Management Tool kirjoitti:
> Title: LS to IETF for clarification on RFC 4006 for Diameter Base Protocol
> Submission Date: 2016-05-04
> URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1470/
> Please reply by 2016-05-23
> From: "Maryse Gardella" <maryse.gardella@nokia.com>
> To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>,Lionel Morand <lionel.morand@orange.com>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>,Lionel Morand <lionel.morand@orange.com>,Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>,Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>,Diameter Maintenance and Extensions Discussion List <dime@ietf.org>,
> Response Contacts: 3GPPLiaison@etsi.org
> Technical Contacts:
> Purpose: For action
>
> Body:
> Attachments:
>
>      LS to IETF for clarification on RFC 4006 for Diameter Base Protocol
>      https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2016-05-04-3gpp-tsg-sa-wg5-dime-ls-to-ietf-for-clarification-on-rfc-4006-for-diameter-base-protocol-attachment-1.doc
>


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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Use of SourceID AVP in Agent Overload and Load control drafts
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 10:14:34 +0000
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/7zZChkgsJQOA8BM1LXQjUpIO5mY>
Subject: Re: [Dime] Use of SourceID AVP in Agent Overload and Load control drafts
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Hello Lionel, all,

I think there is not a need to define two AVPs, when in fact the purpose of=
 the AVP in both case is the same, i.e. identify the Diameter node that ins=
erts this AVP. Then, that diameter node is considered as the source of the =
Load information (if inserted in Load AVP) or the Overload Information (if =
inserted in OC-OLR AVP).

If the problem you want to solve is the dependency of one draft to another,=
 I will propose to simply progress first the one that we consider is more r=
elevant, according to last emails it seems that Load is progressing faster,=
 then we can simply have the definition of the SourceID AVP in the Load dra=
ft. Then, this definition should be generic enough, to allow a direct appli=
cability to Agent Overload draft.

Would that work for you?
Best regards
/MCruz



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange=
.com
Sent: viernes, 22 de abril de 2016 15:29
To: dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] Use of SourceID AVP in Agent Overload and Load control draf=
ts

Hi,

At the last IETF meeting, we have discussed the interdependence between the=
 load control and the Agent Overload draft regarding the use of the SourceI=
D AVP.

First of all, there is some inconsistency in the agent overload draft. The =
AVP is sometimes named OC-SourceID AVP and sometimes OC-SourcedID. This nee=
ds to be fixed.

Now, if we look at the definition of the OC-SourceID in the agent overload =
draft , we find:

6.3.  OC-SourceID

   The [OC-]SourceID AVP (AVP code TBD2) is of type DiameterIdentity and is
   inserted by the DOIC node that either indicates support for this
   feature (in the OC-Supported-Features AVP) or that generates an OC-
   OLR AVP with a report type of peer.

   It contains the Diameter Identity of the inserting node.  This is
   used by other DOIC nodes to determine if the a peer indicated support
   this feature or inserted the peer report.

This definition is interesting and should be kept from my point of view. I =
think that having an AVP identifying the source of DOIC node is a good poin=
t and this should remain.
I would be then in favor to define two separate AVPs, one identifying a OC =
source, another identifying a Load source.
I propose to keep "OC-SourceID" for the first one and "Load-SourceID" for t=
he second one.

Additional advantage: if this approach is agreed, there is no need to link =
both drafts anymore.

Does it sound acceptable?

I will initiate issues aligned with this proposal. According to the conclus=
ion of this discussion, they can be accepted or rejected later.

Regards,

Lionel



___________________________________________________________________________=
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From nobody Fri May  6 08:50:00 2016
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Use of SourceID AVP in Agent Overload and Load control drafts
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I prefer to fix the definition in the agent overload draft and progress 
it first or in parallel with the load draft.  We need to finish all of 
these drafts and the agent overload draft is the oldest.  This shouldn't 
slow the load draft if we do things in parallel.

Steve

On 5/6/16 5:14 AM, Maria Cruz Bartolome wrote:
> Hello Lionel, all,
>
> I think there is not a need to define two AVPs, when in fact the purpose of the AVP in both case is the same, i.e. identify the Diameter node that inserts this AVP. Then, that diameter node is considered as the source of the Load information (if inserted in Load AVP) or the Overload Information (if inserted in OC-OLR AVP).
>
> If the problem you want to solve is the dependency of one draft to another, I will propose to simply progress first the one that we consider is more relevant, according to last emails it seems that Load is progressing faster, then we can simply have the definition of the SourceID AVP in the Load draft. Then, this definition should be generic enough, to allow a direct applicability to Agent Overload draft.
>
> Would that work for you?
> Best regards
> /MCruz
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of lionel.morand@orange.com
> Sent: viernes, 22 de abril de 2016 15:29
> To: dime@ietf.org
> Subject: [Dime] Use of SourceID AVP in Agent Overload and Load control drafts
>
> Hi,
>
> At the last IETF meeting, we have discussed the interdependence between the load control and the Agent Overload draft regarding the use of the SourceID AVP.
>
> First of all, there is some inconsistency in the agent overload draft. The AVP is sometimes named OC-SourceID AVP and sometimes OC-SourcedID. This needs to be fixed.
>
> Now, if we look at the definition of the OC-SourceID in the agent overload draft , we find:
>
> 6.3.  OC-SourceID
>
>     The [OC-]SourceID AVP (AVP code TBD2) is of type DiameterIdentity and is
>     inserted by the DOIC node that either indicates support for this
>     feature (in the OC-Supported-Features AVP) or that generates an OC-
>     OLR AVP with a report type of peer.
>
>     It contains the Diameter Identity of the inserting node.  This is
>     used by other DOIC nodes to determine if the a peer indicated support
>     this feature or inserted the peer report.
>
> This definition is interesting and should be kept from my point of view. I think that having an AVP identifying the source of DOIC node is a good point and this should remain.
> I would be then in favor to define two separate AVPs, one identifying a OC source, another identifying a Load source.
> I propose to keep "OC-SourceID" for the first one and "Load-SourceID" for the second one.
>
> Additional advantage: if this approach is agreed, there is no need to link both drafts anymore.
>
> Does it sound acceptable?
>
> I will initiate issues aligned with this proposal. According to the conclusion of this discussion, they can be accepted or rejected later.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From nobody Fri May  6 09:04:11 2016
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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All,

I was on jury duty yesterday so I wasn't able to fully engage.

I agree that we are close to resolving issues and I will produce an 
updated draft that addresses IESG review comments, along with one change 
requested by IANA.

I also need to respond to Ben's last email.

My proposal, modulo Ben's comments, is to add the following to the draft:

- Emphasizing that the mechanism only works when one of the following is 
true:

   - Agents only handle a single DRMP application.
   - All Diameter applications that support DRMP used in a Diameter 
network must have consistent and synchronized priority definitions. I'll 
add some words around what is meant by consistent and synchronized.

- Strengthening wording indicating that this mechanism is designed to 
work in trusted environments.  This includes recommending stripping or 
modifying priority settings for requests received from untrusted 
sources.  The determination of what is a trusted and untrusted source 
would be out of the scope of the DRMP draft.

- Adding the other updates that have been agreed to as part of this 
review cycle.

This leaves as future work, should there be a need, the handling 
multiple "priority schemes" within a single network.  This is a very 
hard problem and not a use case that is currently needed by existing 
users of Diameter.

I'll wait for feedback, especially from the Dime working group, before I 
start updating the document.

Regards,

Steve

On 5/5/16 9:39 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> Great. I think we're maybe at the point where pushing out a
> revised I-D that has the fixes we now know we want would be a
> good plan and then we can go back around the discuss holders
> and see where we're at.
>
> Make sense? If not, then please continue the discussion to
> get us there.
>
> Cheers,
> S.
>
> On 05/05/16 15:25, Steve Donovan wrote:
>> I'm okay with this addition.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> On May 5, 2016 8:21:22 AM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 05/05/16 14:19, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>>>> I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in
>>>> order for priority information to be reliably usable in the way that
>>>> use cases 5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and
>>>> consuming it must have pre-established trust relationships of the
>>>> sort described in Section 11.
>>> Sounds reasonable to me. Authors?
>>>
>>> S.
>>>
>>


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Ben,

See my comments inline.

Steve

On 5/4/16 10:58 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> (oops, sent this earlier, but it just went to Steve. Resending to full 
> list)
>
> Thanks for the quick response. Further discussion inline:
>
> Ben.
>
> On 4 May 2016, at 11:25, Steve Donovan wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> DISCUSS:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I have a few concerns that I think need some discussion.
>>>
>>> 1) Priority between applications: The fact that agents can apply 
>>> priority
>>> for messages from multiple applications without knowledge of those
>>> applications seems dangerous. Let's say application A is a critical
>>> infrastructure application, and application B is not. But clients for
>>> application B might set requests to have a higher priority than do
>>> clients for application A.  Further, application B could become a DoS
>>> vector for application A. One potential (and likely half-baked) way to
>>> mitigate this would be to say that nodes that are not "application 
>>> aware"
>>> can only apply priority among messages for the same application.
>> SRD> This is similar to saying that priority setting across 
>> applications need to be set in a consistent way.  We might need to 
>> define the "priority scheme" or some similar concept as sketched out 
>> in my response to Alissa's DISCUSS.
>
> That would probably help. Am I correct in assuming that would require 
> some WG discussion?
> It occurs to me after sleeping on it that, in congestion cases, this 
> would leave things no worse than when a relay agent throttles requests 
> with even less information. But it's a little more worrisome when used 
> in non-congested circumstances, assuming they leave the possibility of 
> throttling or otherwise rejecting requests under normal processing 
> conditions.
SRD> See my proposed changes to the draft sent in a separate email.  I 
think this addresses the above concern and is currently waiting WG 
discussion.
>
>>>
>>> 2) Priority between clients of the same application: If you have 
>>> multiple
>>> clients for the same application, don't they need to use the same
>>> prioritization strategy? How is this to be managed?
>> SRD> It is not directly defined.  This is back to the question of 
>> whether or not the mechanism is constrained to only work in a trusted 
>> environment.
>
> The potential "priority scheme" might help here. But why does a 
> trusted environment matter? Lets say you have trusted clients from 
> vender A and from vendor B, but they select priorities differently?
SRD> They aren't trusted if they aren't using the defined standards.  In 
addition, trusted environment generally means operated by a single 
entity.  That operator has the job of ensuring that what you are 
proposing would not happen.
>
>>>
>>> 3) Out of order requests: The draft explicitly allows agents to 
>>> re-route
>>> and even explicitly re-order messages. Is it safe to have a
>>> non-application aware node change the order of messages?
>> SRD> This mechanism doesn't change the need for Diameter nodes to 
>> handle messages arriving out of order.  This exists in any protocol 
>> that has agents/proxies.
>
> Okay, I will withdraw that part. (How quick one forgets...)
>
>>>
>>> 4) I am nervous about the idea that clients and servers would use a
>>> generic message priority mechanism to manage the allocation of 
>>> resources
>>> that result from a requests and answers. It seems like that should be
>>> based on application specific rules and information. (Now, if the point
>>> is that these same AVPs might be used in an application according to
>>> application specific rules, that might be okay--but then you might run
>>> into issues where application-agnostic agents don't know the 
>>> difference.)
>> SRD> The definition of what different priority levels mean will 
>> reflect the application specific knowledge.  Agents just route 
>> requests and with the introduction of DOIC, sometimes throttle them.  
>> The agent doesn't need anything but the priority value, as long as 
>> the priority values are defined consistently across all applications.
>
> My concern was more about client and server behavior, but it may be 
> impacted by relays. I assume that a relay agent would not be making 
> decisions about resource allocation, at least beyond transactions state.
>
> My concern is twofold: In the case of servers, this seems to give a 
> server leave to send a successful answer, but not allocate any 
> necessary resources to support that success. This seems to lead to 
> circumstances where the server thinks something failed but the client 
> thinks it worked. (I have no problem with saying that a 
> resource-constrained server might include priority as a factor in it's 
> decisions about which requests to reject.)
SRD> DRMP does not change application server behavior.  It just 
influences the order in which requests are processed.  As such, I don't 
see how DRMP would cause the server to falsely send a success response.
>
> In the case of clients, I think we are talking about a client 
> abandoning some task even though the server thinks it worked. I don't 
> see that as a problem per se, but I would expect a server to do that 
> based on some local knowledge of priority. It seems a stretch that it 
> would do so based on a priority value inserted by the server. But even 
> if that makes sense, I understand that this draft allows relay agents 
> with no knowledge of the application semantics to insert, remove, or 
> change priority values in answer messages. (Maybe the answer here is 
> stricter guidance on when relay agents can change priority values, and 
> allowing the client to ignore priority values in answers (especially 
> success answers)
SRD> Clients abandoning things can happen without DRMP.  It's up to the 
application to define the correct behavior when this happens.  DRMP 
doesn't change anything on that front.  As such, I don't see the concern.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> COMMENT:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> General: I approached this assuming prioritization would matter only in
>>> overload scenarios. But I gather you envision using this in 
>>> non-overload
>>> scenarios? (This interacts with my discuss point about the use of 
>>> DRMP to
>>> prioritize resource allocation that result result from successful
>>> diameter transactions.) Use case 5.3 is a bit worrisome in this 
>>> context.
>> SRD> I don't understand the concern.
>
> I'm concerned that this could effectively induce overload for lower 
> priority messages, when the nodes would normally be able to handle all 
> messages. In use case 5.3, does the platinum customer buy the right to 
> cause other customer's requests to fail?
SRD> It is certainly possible that higher priority messages could starve 
lower priority messages.  The only case when this would result in a 
lower priority message not getting service in non congestion scenarios 
is if the lower priority message times out. This is a recognized side 
effect of priority based schemes like this.  An operator offering a 
service like 5.3 would have to take this into consideration.  I would 
expect that in a well thought out priority scheme the percentage of high 
priority messages will be significantly less than low priority messages, 
reducing the probability of starving the low priority messages.  How 
this is done, however, is out side the scope of this document.
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>> -6, list item 4: Are there really use cases for answer senders to set a
>>> different priority on the answer than was on the request? That seems to
>>> add quite a bit of complexity.
>> SRD> This was an explicit conversation within the working group. I 
>> don't recall the specific use case off the top of my head, but this 
>> was changed to the current wording after discussions within the 
>> working group.  I can go back to the email archive to refresh my 
>> memory if necessary.
>
> I am willing to accede to working group consensus on this. But one 
> question: Does this apply to answers that indicate success, as well as 
> failure?
SRD> Yes.
>
>>>
>>> - 6, list item 8: I'm not sure what it means for a client to prioritize
>>> answers to it's own requests.
>> SRD> The client could choose to complete the transaction, and 
>> initiate other dependent actions, based on the priority received in 
>> the answer message.  It is those dependent actions -- setting up a 
>> data channel, authorizing call completion, etc -- that would be 
>> impacted by the priorities received in the answer.
>
> See the comments on item 4 from my discuss.
SRD> See my response.  Is there something else that I'm missing?
>
>>>
>>> -8,  "Diameter nodes SHOULD
>>>     include Diameter routing message priority in the DRMP AVP in all
>>>     Diameter request messages." :
>>> Does that apply to all nodes that touch a request, or just the request
>>> originator?
>> SRD> This statement was meant to apply to the request originator.  
>> The statement should be updated.
>
> Okay.
>
>>>
>>> -- "Diameter nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP
>>> carried in the answer message, if it exists."
>>> The MUST seems odd, since paying attention to the priority in the 
>>> initial
>>> request was only SHOULD.
>> SRD> The wording here is cumbersome.  The full paragraph is as follows:
>>
>>    When determining the priority to apply to answer messages, Diameter
>>    nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP carried in the
>>    answer message, if it exists.  Otherwise, the Diameter node MUST use
>>    the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP of the associated request
>>    message.
>>
>> This is meant to say that a Diameter node receiving an answer message 
>> MUST use the priority value in the answer message when processing the 
>> message.  If there is no DRMP AVP in the answer message then the 
>> receiving node uses the priority that was in the request message.  
>> I'd be happy to re-craft this to be more clear.
>
> Part of my concern is that the MUST vs SHOULD bit is different for 
> requests and answers. statements of the form "If you use the 
> mechanism, you MUST do X" do not mean the same as "SHOULD do X", even 
> if the reasoning behind the SHOULD is that a node might not use the 
> mechanism.
SRD> There are no SHOULD statements in this paragraph.  This requirement 
only applies "When determining the priority to apply to __received__ 
answer messages".  I don't see the conflict.
>
>>>
>>> -- "Another is to use the Proxy-Info
>>>        mechanism defined in [RFC6733].":
>>> That probably needs some elaboration.
>> SRD> A reference to the document that defines Proxy-Info isn't 
>> sufficient?
>
> On a re-read, it's probably good enough, although on reflection, I 
> don't think this draft needs to tell relay agents how to manage 
> transaction state. But it doesn't hurt either way.
SRD> This draft doesn't, it lists two options.  The Proxy-Info qualifier 
was inserted because there was a suggestion that the wording indicate 
the state is stored locally by the agent.


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To: "Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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I'm jumping in here because part of it also relates to some of my 
DISCUSS points:

On 6 May 2016, at 11:03, Steve Donovan wrote:

> All,
>
> I was on jury duty yesterday so I wasn't able to fully engage.
>
> I agree that we are close to resolving issues and I will produce an 
> updated draft that addresses IESG review comments, along with one 
> change requested by IANA.
>
> I also need to respond to Ben's last email.
>
> My proposal, modulo Ben's comments, is to add the following to the 
> draft:
>
> - Emphasizing that the mechanism only works when one of the following 
> is true:
>
>   - Agents only handle a single DRMP application.

What does that mean from a standards perspective? A "relay agent" is 
assumed to be application-agnostic. So in some ways, it supports all 
applications. Even ones that don't exist yet. A proxy, OTOH, is assumed 
to know application semantics--but I don't think that is what we are 
talking about, is it?

Or do this just mean that the operator makes sure that messages from 
only one application traverse the agent? (There's risk that they will 
forget that part when adding a 2nd application down the road.)  (But see 
next comment...)

>   - All Diameter applications that support DRMP used in a Diameter 
> network must have consistent and synchronized priority definitions. 
> I'll add some words around what is meant by consistent and 
> synchronized.

Those would help, but I don't think handling a single DRMP application 
necessarily removes the need for consistent priority definitions.

As with DOIC, you may see cases where vendors and or operators wish to 
apply DRMP to applications even though the specifications for that 
application do not define its use. (or perhaps before the owners of the 
standard for legacy applications get around to doing so.) I'm not sure 
if the intent is to allow that, but if it is, then you need consistent 
policies across nodes.

If the expectation is that DRMP can only be used when documented in the 
"standard" for the application, then it would be good to include some 
high-level detail about what we expect to be documented.

>
> - Strengthening wording indicating that this mechanism is designed to 
> work in trusted environments.  This includes recommending stripping or 
> modifying priority settings for requests received from untrusted 
> sources.  The determination of what is a trusted and untrusted source 
> would be out of the scope of the DRMP draft.
>
> - Adding the other updates that have been agreed to as part of this 
> review cycle.
>
> This leaves as future work, should there be a need, the handling 
> multiple "priority schemes" within a single network.  This is a very 
> hard problem and not a use case that is currently needed by existing 
> users of Diameter.
>
> I'll wait for feedback, especially from the Dime working group, before 
> I start updating the document.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
> On 5/5/16 9:39 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>> Great. I think we're maybe at the point where pushing out a
>> revised I-D that has the fixes we now know we want would be a
>> good plan and then we can go back around the discuss holders
>> and see where we're at.
>>
>> Make sense? If not, then please continue the discussion to
>> get us there.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>> On 05/05/16 15:25, Steve Donovan wrote:
>>> I'm okay with this addition.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 5, 2016 8:21:22 AM Stephen Farrell 
>>> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 05/05/16 14:19, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>>>>> I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in
>>>>> order for priority information to be reliably usable in the way 
>>>>> that
>>>>> use cases 5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and
>>>>> consuming it must have pre-established trust relationships of the
>>>>> sort described in Section 11.
>>>> Sounds reasonable to me. Authors?
>>>>
>>>> S.
>>>>
>>>


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From: "Ben Campbell" <ben@nostrum.com>
To: "Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
Date: Fri, 06 May 2016 15:45:43 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On 6 May 2016, at 14:48, Steve Donovan wrote:


[...]

>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> DISCUSS:
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> I have a few concerns that I think need some discussion.
>>>>
>>>> 1) Priority between applications: The fact that agents can apply 
>>>> priority
>>>> for messages from multiple applications without knowledge of those
>>>> applications seems dangerous. Let's say application A is a critical
>>>> infrastructure application, and application B is not. But clients 
>>>> for
>>>> application B might set requests to have a higher priority than do
>>>> clients for application A.  Further, application B could become a 
>>>> DoS
>>>> vector for application A. One potential (and likely half-baked) way 
>>>> to
>>>> mitigate this would be to say that nodes that are not "application 
>>>> aware"
>>>> can only apply priority among messages for the same application.
>>> SRD> This is similar to saying that priority setting across 
>>> applications need to be set in a consistent way.  We might need to 
>>> define the "priority scheme" or some similar concept as sketched out 
>>> in my response to Alissa's DISCUSS.
>>
>> That would probably help. Am I correct in assuming that would require 
>> some WG discussion?
>> It occurs to me after sleeping on it that, in congestion cases, this 
>> would leave things no worse than when a relay agent throttles 
>> requests with even less information. But it's a little more worrisome 
>> when used in non-congested circumstances, assuming they leave the 
>> possibility of throttling or otherwise rejecting requests under 
>> normal processing conditions.
> SRD> See my proposed changes to the draft sent in a separate email.  I 
> think this addresses the above concern and is currently waiting WG 
> discussion.

See my comment in that thread. For the record, I think the proposal is 
on the right track, but may still need some tweaks.

>>
>>>>
>>>> 2) Priority between clients of the same application: If you have 
>>>> multiple
>>>> clients for the same application, don't they need to use the same
>>>> prioritization strategy? How is this to be managed?
>>> SRD> It is not directly defined.  This is back to the question of 
>>> whether or not the mechanism is constrained to only work in a 
>>> trusted environment.
>>
>> The potential "priority scheme" might help here. But why does a 
>> trusted environment matter? Lets say you have trusted clients from 
>> vender A and from vendor B, but they select priorities differently?
> SRD> They aren't trusted if they aren't using the defined standards.

What standard? The application specification? (See my question in 
Alissa's thread about whether DRMP can be applied to legacy applications 
that don't (yet) define it's use.)

> In addition, trusted environment generally means operated by a single 
> entity.  That operator has the job of ensuring that what you are 
> proposing would not happen.

I can accept if that is the case, but it's not a very satisfying answer. 
It leads to having profiles for each operator. (I realize that the 
primary users of Diameter have always had operator-specific profiles of 
standards, so maybe there's nothing to do here.) This might at least 
imply a requirement that priority definitions need to be configurable.

[...]

>>
>>>>
>>>> 4) I am nervous about the idea that clients and servers would use a
>>>> generic message priority mechanism to manage the allocation of 
>>>> resources
>>>> that result from a requests and answers. It seems like that should 
>>>> be
>>>> based on application specific rules and information. (Now, if the 
>>>> point
>>>> is that these same AVPs might be used in an application according 
>>>> to
>>>> application specific rules, that might be okay--but then you might 
>>>> run
>>>> into issues where application-agnostic agents don't know the 
>>>> difference.)
>>> SRD> The definition of what different priority levels mean will 
>>> reflect the application specific knowledge.  Agents just route 
>>> requests and with the introduction of DOIC, sometimes throttle them. 
>>>  The agent doesn't need anything but the priority value, as long as 
>>> the priority values are defined consistently across all 
>>> applications.
>>
>> My concern was more about client and server behavior, but it may be 
>> impacted by relays. I assume that a relay agent would not be making 
>> decisions about resource allocation, at least beyond transactions 
>> state.
>>
>> My concern is twofold: In the case of servers, this seems to give a 
>> server leave to send a successful answer, but not allocate any 
>> necessary resources to support that success. This seems to lead to 
>> circumstances where the server thinks something failed but the client 
>> thinks it worked. (I have no problem with saying that a 
>> resource-constrained server might include priority as a factor in 
>> it's decisions about which requests to reject.)
> SRD> DRMP does not change application server behavior.  It just 
> influences the order in which requests are processed.  As such, I 
> don't see how DRMP would cause the server to falsely send a success 
> response.

I agree, but I thought the language in DRMP seemed to allow for it. 
Maybe, rather than saying that a server could use DRMP to decide whether 
the allocate resources for a request, it would be better to say the 
server could use DRMP to decide whether to process or fail a request.

>>
>> In the case of clients, I think we are talking about a client 
>> abandoning some task even though the server thinks it worked. I don't 
>> see that as a problem per se, but I would expect a server to do that 
>> based on some local knowledge of priority. It seems a stretch that it 
>> would do so based on a priority value inserted by the server. But 
>> even if that makes sense, I understand that this draft allows relay 
>> agents with no knowledge of the application semantics to insert, 
>> remove, or change priority values in answer messages. (Maybe the 
>> answer here is stricter guidance on when relay agents can change 
>> priority values, and allowing the client to ignore priority values in 
>> answers (especially success answers)
> SRD> Clients abandoning things can happen without DRMP.  It's up to 
> the application to define the correct behavior when this happens.  
> DRMP doesn't change anything on that front.  As such, I don't see the 
> concern.

I think that's fine if only application-aware nodes are involved (and 
the application defines how to use DRMP). My concern is that a relay 
agent is allowed to change the priority. So imagine a client sends a 
request with a high priority, and gets back a successful answer with a 
low priority. Section 8 says it MUST use the priority in the answer over 
it's local idea of what the priority was. How does it know a relay 
didn't change the priority in the answer.

(Even if nothing changes the answer en route, is it really reasonable 
for the server's idea of priority to always override the client's?)
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> COMMENT:
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> General: I approached this assuming prioritization would matter 
>>>> only in
>>>> overload scenarios. But I gather you envision using this in 
>>>> non-overload
>>>> scenarios? (This interacts with my discuss point about the use of 
>>>> DRMP to
>>>> prioritize resource allocation that result result from successful
>>>> diameter transactions.) Use case 5.3 is a bit worrisome in this 
>>>> context.
>>> SRD> I don't understand the concern.
>>
>> I'm concerned that this could effectively induce overload for lower 
>> priority messages, when the nodes would normally be able to handle 
>> all messages. In use case 5.3, does the platinum customer buy the 
>> right to cause other customer's requests to fail?
> SRD> It is certainly possible that higher priority messages could 
> starve lower priority messages.  The only case when this would result 
> in a lower priority message not getting service in non congestion 
> scenarios is if the lower priority message times out. This is a 
> recognized side effect of priority based schemes like this.  An 
> operator offering a service like 5.3 would have to take this into 
> consideration.  I would expect that in a well thought out priority 
> scheme the percentage of high priority messages will be significantly 
> less than low priority messages, reducing the probability of starving 
> the low priority messages.  How this is done, however, is out side the 
> scope of this document.

It's probably worth mentioning in the draft text that a naive approach 
to priority can introduce transaction failure in cases where all 
transactions might have succeeded without it, and that operators and 
implementers need to consider that.

[...]

>>
>>>>
>>>> -- "Diameter nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP
>>>> carried in the answer message, if it exists."
>>>> The MUST seems odd, since paying attention to the priority in the 
>>>> initial
>>>> request was only SHOULD.
>>> SRD> The wording here is cumbersome.  The full paragraph is as 
>>> follows:
>>>
>>>    When determining the priority to apply to answer messages, 
>>> Diameter
>>>    nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP carried in 
>>> the
>>>    answer message, if it exists.  Otherwise, the Diameter node MUST 
>>> use
>>>    the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP of the associated request
>>>    message.
>>>
>>> This is meant to say that a Diameter node receiving an answer 
>>> message MUST use the priority value in the answer message when 
>>> processing the message.  If there is no DRMP AVP in the answer 
>>> message then the receiving node uses the priority that was in the 
>>> request message.  I'd be happy to re-craft this to be more clear.
>>
>> Part of my concern is that the MUST vs SHOULD bit is different for 
>> requests and answers. statements of the form "If you use the 
>> mechanism, you MUST do X" do not mean the same as "SHOULD do X", even 
>> if the reasoning behind the SHOULD is that a node might not use the 
>> mechanism.
> SRD> There are no SHOULD statements in this paragraph.  This 
> requirement only applies "When determining the priority to apply to 
> __received__ answer messages".  I don't see the conflict.

So this may be down to a nit--but the text as written says that the 
receiver of a _request_ "SHOULD" use the included priority, but the 
receiver of a response "MUST" use the priority. Now, maybe these are 
just different ways of encoding the idea that the node may not implement 
DRMP. But the former seems to allow the node to override the priority in 
the message if it has good reason, but the latter does not allow the 
same for a response.

As I mention in the discussion about my last discuss point, it seems odd 
that a client cannot choose it's own idea of priority over the servers 
if it thinks it has a good reason.

[...]


From nobody Sun May  8 05:12:43 2016
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To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 14:09:51 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with COMMENT)
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Ben,
> I will jump in on one point, since this is related to the discussion 
> on whether nodes need a common approach to selecting/interpreting 
> priority values:
>
> On 4 May 2016, at 12:02, Benoit Claise wrote:
>
>>
>> -
>>
>>  1.  Request sender - The sender of a request, be it a Diameter Client
>>        or a Diameter Server, determines the relative priority of the
>>        request and includes that priority information in the request.
>>
>> Question: what is the risk of DMRP ending up as the DSCP, i.e.
>> Every end point changes the value to best service, and in the end, it's
>> useless, and uniquely set by the operator.
>
> I think there's a trusted network assumption here, which would include 
> an assumption that trusted clients do not intentionally game the 
> system. (in contrast with _accidentally_ gaming the system by using a 
> different scheme to set priority values.)
>
> However, I think that this sort of assumption should be explicitly 
> mentioned. 
I believe so.
> IIRC, DOIC included some guidance about crossing trust boundaries; 
> perhaps DRMP should do the same.
Yes.
That makes me think. I wonder how the following two statements are 
interoperable?

    Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
    that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.

    Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
    value.


Shouldn't the last SHOULD be a MUST?

Let me explain: a Diameter node wants to send Diameter messages with 
priority above average, so PRIORITY = 12 (because his default is 10). 
Along the path (potentially crossing a boundary), a Diameter node 
doesn't support the DRMP AVP. The next node, which does, sets his 
default priority. The default priority on that node has been configured 
as 13. And now, my Diameter messages will be treated as below average.
Do I miss anything?

Regards, Benoit

>
> (And I guess that does make it a bit like DSCP ;-)  )
>
> Ben.
> .
>


From nobody Tue May 10 06:26:56 2016
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To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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See inline.

On 5/6/16 3:03 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> I'm jumping in here because part of it also relates to some of my 
> DISCUSS points:
>
> On 6 May 2016, at 11:03, Steve Donovan wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> I was on jury duty yesterday so I wasn't able to fully engage.
>>
>> I agree that we are close to resolving issues and I will produce an 
>> updated draft that addresses IESG review comments, along with one 
>> change requested by IANA.
>>
>> I also need to respond to Ben's last email.
>>
>> My proposal, modulo Ben's comments, is to add the following to the 
>> draft:
>>
>> - Emphasizing that the mechanism only works when one of the following 
>> is true:
>>
>>   - Agents only handle a single DRMP application.
>
> What does that mean from a standards perspective? A "relay agent" is 
> assumed to be application-agnostic. So in some ways, it supports all 
> applications. Even ones that don't exist yet. A proxy, OTOH, is 
> assumed to know application semantics--but I don't think that is what 
> we are talking about, is it?
>
> Or do this just mean that the operator makes sure that messages from 
> only one application traverse the agent? (There's risk that they will 
> forget that part when adding a 2nd application down the road.)  (But 
> see next comment...)
SRD> It means that the network is set up so the relay, be it an agent or 
a proxy, only handles a single application.
>
>>   - All Diameter applications that support DRMP used in a Diameter 
>> network must have consistent and synchronized priority definitions. 
>> I'll add some words around what is meant by consistent and synchronized.
>
> Those would help, but I don't think handling a single DRMP application 
> necessarily removes the need for consistent priority definitions.
>
> As with DOIC, you may see cases where vendors and or operators wish to 
> apply DRMP to applications even though the specifications for that 
> application do not define its use. (or perhaps before the owners of 
> the standard for legacy applications get around to doing so.) I'm not 
> sure if the intent is to allow that, but if it is, then you need 
> consistent policies across nodes.
SRD> The consistency mentioned above is across applications.  A nodes 
adherence to standards or operator policy addresses consistency across 
nodes.
>
> If the expectation is that DRMP can only be used when documented in 
> the "standard" for the application, then it would be good to include 
> some high-level detail about what we expect to be documented.
SRD> This is reasonable.  Although its not going to be much more than 
documenting what priority to use in which situations.
>
>>
>> - Strengthening wording indicating that this mechanism is designed to 
>> work in trusted environments.  This includes recommending stripping 
>> or modifying priority settings for requests received from untrusted 
>> sources.  The determination of what is a trusted and untrusted source 
>> would be out of the scope of the DRMP draft.
>>
>> - Adding the other updates that have been agreed to as part of this 
>> review cycle.
>>
>> This leaves as future work, should there be a need, the handling 
>> multiple "priority schemes" within a single network.  This is a very 
>> hard problem and not a use case that is currently needed by existing 
>> users of Diameter.
>>
>> I'll wait for feedback, especially from the Dime working group, 
>> before I start updating the document.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 5/5/16 9:39 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>> Great. I think we're maybe at the point where pushing out a
>>> revised I-D that has the fixes we now know we want would be a
>>> good plan and then we can go back around the discuss holders
>>> and see where we're at.
>>>
>>> Make sense? If not, then please continue the discussion to
>>> get us there.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> S.
>>>
>>> On 05/05/16 15:25, Steve Donovan wrote:
>>>> I'm okay with this addition.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 5, 2016 8:21:22 AM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 05/05/16 14:19, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>>>>>> I think the gap is in Section 5, where it should be noted that in
>>>>>> order for priority information to be reliably usable in the way that
>>>>>> use cases 5.1 and 5.2 call for, the Diameter nodes sending and
>>>>>> consuming it must have pre-established trust relationships of the
>>>>>> sort described in Section 11.
>>>>> Sounds reasonable to me. Authors?
>>>>>
>>>>> S.
>>>>>
>>>>


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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See inline.

On 5/6/16 3:45 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> On 6 May 2016, at 14:48, Steve Donovan wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>
>>>>> DISCUSS:
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a few concerns that I think need some discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Priority between applications: The fact that agents can apply 
>>>>> priority
>>>>> for messages from multiple applications without knowledge of those
>>>>> applications seems dangerous. Let's say application A is a critical
>>>>> infrastructure application, and application B is not. But clients for
>>>>> application B might set requests to have a higher priority than do
>>>>> clients for application A.  Further, application B could become a DoS
>>>>> vector for application A. One potential (and likely half-baked) 
>>>>> way to
>>>>> mitigate this would be to say that nodes that are not "application 
>>>>> aware"
>>>>> can only apply priority among messages for the same application.
>>>> SRD> This is similar to saying that priority setting across 
>>>> applications need to be set in a consistent way.  We might need to 
>>>> define the "priority scheme" or some similar concept as sketched 
>>>> out in my response to Alissa's DISCUSS.
>>>
>>> That would probably help. Am I correct in assuming that would 
>>> require some WG discussion?
>>> It occurs to me after sleeping on it that, in congestion cases, this 
>>> would leave things no worse than when a relay agent throttles 
>>> requests with even less information. But it's a little more 
>>> worrisome when used in non-congested circumstances, assuming they 
>>> leave the possibility of throttling or otherwise rejecting requests 
>>> under normal processing conditions.
>> SRD> See my proposed changes to the draft sent in a separate email.  
>> I think this addresses the above concern and is currently waiting WG 
>> discussion.
>
> See my comment in that thread. For the record, I think the proposal is 
> on the right track, but may still need some tweaks.
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Priority between clients of the same application: If you have 
>>>>> multiple
>>>>> clients for the same application, don't they need to use the same
>>>>> prioritization strategy? How is this to be managed?
>>>> SRD> It is not directly defined.  This is back to the question of 
>>>> whether or not the mechanism is constrained to only work in a 
>>>> trusted environment.
>>>
>>> The potential "priority scheme" might help here. But why does a 
>>> trusted environment matter? Lets say you have trusted clients from 
>>> vender A and from vendor B, but they select priorities differently?
>> SRD> They aren't trusted if they aren't using the defined standards.
>
> What standard? The application specification? (See my question in 
> Alissa's thread about whether DRMP can be applied to legacy 
> applications that don't (yet) define it's use.)
SRD> I mean application specification or operator policy.  DRMP can 
apply to legacy applications in two ways.  First, the default priority 
applies if no priority is explicitly included in the message.  Second, 
operators can define their own priority scheme.
>
>> In addition, trusted environment generally means operated by a single 
>> entity.  That operator has the job of ensuring that what you are 
>> proposing would not happen.
>
> I can accept if that is the case, but it's not a very satisfying 
> answer. It leads to having profiles for each operator. (I realize that 
> the primary users of Diameter have always had operator-specific 
> profiles of standards, so maybe there's nothing to do here.) This 
> might at least imply a requirement that priority definitions need to 
> be configurable.
SRD> I don't see that it means a profile per operator.  3GPP is likely 
to create a profile that spans all of its applications and could be used 
by all operators following the 3GPP standards.
>
> [...]
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) I am nervous about the idea that clients and servers would use a
>>>>> generic message priority mechanism to manage the allocation of 
>>>>> resources
>>>>> that result from a requests and answers. It seems like that should be
>>>>> based on application specific rules and information. (Now, if the 
>>>>> point
>>>>> is that these same AVPs might be used in an application according to
>>>>> application specific rules, that might be okay--but then you might 
>>>>> run
>>>>> into issues where application-agnostic agents don't know the 
>>>>> difference.)
>>>> SRD> The definition of what different priority levels mean will 
>>>> reflect the application specific knowledge. Agents just route 
>>>> requests and with the introduction of DOIC, sometimes throttle 
>>>> them.  The agent doesn't need anything but the priority value, as 
>>>> long as the priority values are defined consistently across all 
>>>> applications.
>>>
>>> My concern was more about client and server behavior, but it may be 
>>> impacted by relays. I assume that a relay agent would not be making 
>>> decisions about resource allocation, at least beyond transactions 
>>> state.
>>>
>>> My concern is twofold: In the case of servers, this seems to give a 
>>> server leave to send a successful answer, but not allocate any 
>>> necessary resources to support that success. This seems to lead to 
>>> circumstances where the server thinks something failed but the 
>>> client thinks it worked. (I have no problem with saying that a 
>>> resource-constrained server might include priority as a factor in 
>>> it's decisions about which requests to reject.)
>> SRD> DRMP does not change application server behavior.  It just 
>> influences the order in which requests are processed.  As such, I 
>> don't see how DRMP would cause the server to falsely send a success 
>> response.
>
> I agree, but I thought the language in DRMP seemed to allow for it. 
> Maybe, rather than saying that a server could use DRMP to decide 
> whether the allocate resources for a request, it would be better to 
> say the server could use DRMP to decide whether to process or fail a 
> request.
SRD> OK.
>
>>>
>>> In the case of clients, I think we are talking about a client 
>>> abandoning some task even though the server thinks it worked. I 
>>> don't see that as a problem per se, but I would expect a server to 
>>> do that based on some local knowledge of priority. It seems a 
>>> stretch that it would do so based on a priority value inserted by 
>>> the server. But even if that makes sense, I understand that this 
>>> draft allows relay agents with no knowledge of the application 
>>> semantics to insert, remove, or change priority values in answer 
>>> messages. (Maybe the answer here is stricter guidance on when relay 
>>> agents can change priority values, and allowing the client to ignore 
>>> priority values in answers (especially success answers)
>> SRD> Clients abandoning things can happen without DRMP.  It's up to 
>> the application to define the correct behavior when this happens.  
>> DRMP doesn't change anything on that front.  As such, I don't see the 
>> concern.
>
> I think that's fine if only application-aware nodes are involved (and 
> the application defines how to use DRMP). My concern is that a relay 
> agent is allowed to change the priority. So imagine a client sends a 
> request with a high priority, and gets back a successful answer with a 
> low priority. Section 8 says it MUST use the priority in the answer 
> over it's local idea of what the priority was. How does it know a 
> relay didn't change the priority in the answer.
>
> (Even if nothing changes the answer en route, is it really reasonable 
> for the server's idea of priority to always override the client's?)
SRD> I don't see the negative impact of having the transaction priority 
changed by either the server or the agent.  If it truly breaks something 
then we could go back to having priority applying to a transaction but I 
don't see what breaks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>
>>>>> COMMENT:
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> General: I approached this assuming prioritization would matter 
>>>>> only in
>>>>> overload scenarios. But I gather you envision using this in 
>>>>> non-overload
>>>>> scenarios? (This interacts with my discuss point about the use of 
>>>>> DRMP to
>>>>> prioritize resource allocation that result result from successful
>>>>> diameter transactions.) Use case 5.3 is a bit worrisome in this 
>>>>> context.
>>>> SRD> I don't understand the concern.
>>>
>>> I'm concerned that this could effectively induce overload for lower 
>>> priority messages, when the nodes would normally be able to handle 
>>> all messages. In use case 5.3, does the platinum customer buy the 
>>> right to cause other customer's requests to fail?
>> SRD> It is certainly possible that higher priority messages could 
>> starve lower priority messages.  The only case when this would result 
>> in a lower priority message not getting service in non congestion 
>> scenarios is if the lower priority message times out. This is a 
>> recognized side effect of priority based schemes like this.  An 
>> operator offering a service like 5.3 would have to take this into 
>> consideration.  I would expect that in a well thought out priority 
>> scheme the percentage of high priority messages will be significantly 
>> less than low priority messages, reducing the probability of starving 
>> the low priority messages. How this is done, however, is out side the 
>> scope of this document.
>
> It's probably worth mentioning in the draft text that a naive approach 
> to priority can introduce transaction failure in cases where all 
> transactions might have succeeded without it, and that operators and 
> implementers need to consider that.
SRD> OK
>
> [...]
>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- "Diameter nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP
>>>>> carried in the answer message, if it exists."
>>>>> The MUST seems odd, since paying attention to the priority in the 
>>>>> initial
>>>>> request was only SHOULD.
>>>> SRD> The wording here is cumbersome.  The full paragraph is as 
>>>> follows:
>>>>
>>>>    When determining the priority to apply to answer messages, Diameter
>>>>    nodes MUST use the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP carried in 
>>>> the
>>>>    answer message, if it exists.  Otherwise, the Diameter node MUST 
>>>> use
>>>>    the priority indicated in the DRMP AVP of the associated request
>>>>    message.
>>>>
>>>> This is meant to say that a Diameter node receiving an answer 
>>>> message MUST use the priority value in the answer message when 
>>>> processing the message.  If there is no DRMP AVP in the answer 
>>>> message then the receiving node uses the priority that was in the 
>>>> request message.  I'd be happy to re-craft this to be more clear.
>>>
>>> Part of my concern is that the MUST vs SHOULD bit is different for 
>>> requests and answers. statements of the form "If you use the 
>>> mechanism, you MUST do X" do not mean the same as "SHOULD do X", 
>>> even if the reasoning behind the SHOULD is that a node might not use 
>>> the mechanism.
>> SRD> There are no SHOULD statements in this paragraph.  This 
>> requirement only applies "When determining the priority to apply to 
>> __received__ answer messages".  I don't see the conflict.
>
> So this may be down to a nit--but the text as written says that the 
> receiver of a _request_ "SHOULD" use the included priority, but the 
> receiver of a response "MUST" use the priority. Now, maybe these are 
> just different ways of encoding the idea that the node may not 
> implement DRMP. But the former seems to allow the node to override the 
> priority in the message if it has good reason, but the latter does not 
> allow the same for a response.
>
> As I mention in the discussion about my last discuss point, it seems 
> odd that a client cannot choose it's own idea of priority over the 
> servers if it thinks it has a good reason.
SRD> Thanks for bearing with me on this one.  I see your point now and 
agree it should be reworded to include allowing for local policy to 
override what is carried in the message.
>
> [...]


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Mirja KÃ¼hlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: Discuss

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I fully agree with all discuss comments made by Ben and Alissa. However,
the summary here might be that this information might simply be not very
useful for the uses cases described. And there might be other mechanisms
that do not require any trust and that can address the uses cases easier
and more appropriate such a simply prioritization of a certain
application in the request handler/request agent or relative priorities
within one application (on sent-out). 

However, the one part that does actually concern me is:
"When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
   default priority for transactions that do not have priority specified
   in a DRMP AVP."
This part could lead to starvation of requests that do not define a
priority, e.g. because there are not supporting it (yet). However these
starved requests could effectively have a higher priortiy than the
request that they get starved by.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you need 15 different priority levels? Wouldn't be two enough for
all or your use cases?



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Hi all,

sorry for my late reply.

I think the part with the two queues was a little confusing. Sorry for =
that as well. I originally meant to describe this to illustrate the =
problem rather than describing a solution. However, using two queues =
(which fully is an implementation detail) does not even match the =
problem correctly that I wanted to describe=E2=80=A6 the actually point =
would be about the scheduling that one would need to implement to serve =
the queues. Here my thinking was that, instead of implementing a strict =
priority scheduling, you could also implement a scheme that guarantees a =
certain minimum serving rate for the non-priority-defined requests to =
avoid full starvation. However, I don=E2=80=99t want to confuse you even =
more here. So let me try to phase my concern again (I=E2=80=99ve also =
edited my discuss text):

I don=E2=80=99t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority to =
non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traffic =
that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be starved =
by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range priority. I =
don=E2=80=99t think that is what you want to achieve.

I think this point is even more true with respect to the discussion that =
went on with Alissa and Ben. There, you said, you=E2=80=99d need to =
define a priority scheme for a certain application before you could use =
it. Given that it does not make sense to define a default priority value =
to for all uses because depending of with priority range you select to =
use in your scheme, the default might be a low, high, or midrange value.

To make it even more clear I would like to propose the following text =
change in the doc:

OLD:
   Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
   that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.

   Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
   value.

NEW:
   Diameter nodes MAY set a default priority to apply to transactions
   that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP if it is
   known that the transactions that define a higher priority than the =
default
   are always higher priority than the transactions that do not define=20=

   a priority explicitly. The default value will depend on the used =
priority=20
   range in a given deployment setup.=20

   Diameter node SHOULD not assign
   a default priority if no additional information about the transaction
   that do not define an explicit priority is known. In this case the
   diameter node SHOULD provide a minimum serving rate for transaction =
that do
   not define an explicit priority to avoid full starvation of these
   transactions the may or may not have a higher priority than other=20
   transactions that provide information about their priority.

I hope that makes sense to you. Please propose edits (if not)!

Mirja=20

=20
> Am 05.05.2016 um 08:32 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,
>=20
> On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 04:50 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>> Hi Janet,
>>=20
>> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
>>=20
>> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving =
two
>> queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) =
solutions to this
>> problem as well.
>>=20
>> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my point =
of
>> view and can actually hurt the systems.
>=20
> I hope this will help to clarify things:
>=20
> One point of assigning default priority is that as this is an =
extension,
> there is a desire to avoid upgrading all clients on the network, as =
that
> would be effectively trying to deploy a new protocol. Consider a =
network
> where proxies and servers understand this extension and none of the
> clients do. Then default priority would be assigned to all traffic and
> the behaviour of the system is unchanged from the case when the
> extension is not deployed. The default priority only makes a =
difference
> if there is a mixture of clients implementing this extension and =
clients
> that don't.
>=20
> Best Regards,
> Alexey
>=20
>> Mirja
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
>>>=20
>>> My comment below.
>>> Janet
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja =
Kuehlewind (IETF)
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
>>> To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; =
dime@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on =
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>=20
>>> Hi Alexey,
>>>=20
>>> see below.
>>>=20
>>> The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower =
priority, you are okay to be starved. However, if you don=E2=80=99t =
indicate anything (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is =
possible to do so), you might have the same or even a higher priority, =
and in this case it=E2=80=99s not okay to be starved.
>>>=20
>>> Mirja
>>> <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system which =
serves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific =
mechanisms)you have two options
>>> 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
>>> 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this arbitrary =
value the "default priority")
>>>=20
>>> You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what =
that arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different =
sytems/applications might have different "default values".
>>>=20
>>> But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message =
comes in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
>>>=20
>>> </JPG>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>=20
>>> This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA =
that may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The =
information in this message is intended only for use by the =
individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If you believe you have received =
this message in error, please contact me immediately and be aware that =
any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of the contents of this =
message is strictly prohibited. NOTE: Regardless of content, this email =
shall not operate to bind CSRA to any order or other contract unless =
pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative =
expressly permitting the use of email for such purpose.
>>=20
>=20


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Hi Mirja,

> On May 10, 2016, at 10:46 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) =
<ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I don=E2=80=99t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority =
to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority =
traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be =
starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range =
priority. I don=E2=80=99t think that is what you want to achieve.

I think your concern is quite valid, and my apologies if I missed =
something in the thread, but I think one thing that hasn=E2=80=99t been =
brought up is the notion of local policy and its separation from labels =
or priority values.  A number of years ago, the IETF community had some =
significant back and forth on the topic in the context of Emergency =
Telecommunications Service.  Specifically, in RFC-3689 we stated the =
following:

   3) Policy

      Policy MUST be kept separate from label(s).  This topic has
      generated a fair amount of debate, and so we provide additional
      guidance from the following:

      A set of labels may be defined as being related to each other.
      Characteristics (e.g., drop precedence) may also be attributed to
      these labels.  [11] is an example of a related set of labels based
      on a specific characteristic.

      However, the mechanisms used to achieve a stated characteristic
      MUST NOT be stated in the definition of a label.  Local policy
      determines mechanism(s) used to achieve or support a specific
      characteristic.  This allows for the possibility of different
      mechanisms to achieve the same stated characteristic.

      The interaction between unrelated labels MUST NOT be embedded
      within the definition of a label.  Local policy states the actions
      (if any) to be taken if unrelated labeled traffic merges at a
      node.

      Finally, labels may have additional characteristics added to them
      as a result of local policy.

Hence, the local policy associated with priority(s) *may* state that a =
weighted round robin in the servicing of queues *must* be used to ensure =
that no queue is ever starved.  Or, a more draconian position could be =
taken that does allow starvation.  It would be up to the =
operator/manager of the service to decide on the what is the local =
policy.  This is the way its been implemented and deployed in a few =
systems that I=E2=80=99m aware of that support prioritization.

-ken

(qualifier: just expressing my own personal opinion.  YMMV, consult =
doctor before use :-)


--Apple-Mail=_004FBBB6-49DF-4723-B787-4E4A0B84033B
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi Mirja,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On May =
10, 2016, at 10:46 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net" class=3D"">ietf@kuehlewind.net</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t =
think it is a good idea to assign a default priority to =
non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traffic =
that does not support this extension (yet)&nbsp;this traffic could be =
starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range =
priority. I don=E2=80=99t think that is what you want to achieve.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think =
your concern is quite valid, and my apologies if I missed something in =
the thread, but I think one thing that hasn=E2=80=99t been brought up is =
the notion of local policy and its separation from labels or priority =
values. &nbsp;A number of years ago, the IETF community had some =
significant back and forth on the topic in the context of Emergency =
Telecommunications Service. &nbsp;Specifically, in RFC-3689 we stated =
the following:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;3) Policy</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Policy MUST be kept separate from =
label(s). &nbsp;This topic has</div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; generated a fair amount of debate, and =
so we provide additional</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; guidance from the following:</div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A set of labels may be defined as being =
related to each other.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; Characteristics (e.g., drop precedence) may also be =
attributed to</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; these labels. &nbsp;[11] is an example of a related set of labels =
based</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; on =
a specific characteristic.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; However, the mechanisms used to achieve a stated =
characteristic</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; MUST NOT be stated in the definition of a label. &nbsp;Local =
policy</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
determines mechanism(s) used to achieve or support a =
specific</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
characteristic. &nbsp;This allows for the possibility of =
different</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; mechanisms to achieve the same stated =
characteristic.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; The interaction between unrelated labels MUST NOT be =
embedded</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
within the definition of a label. &nbsp;Local policy states the =
actions</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
(if any) to be taken if unrelated labeled traffic merges at =
a</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
node.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; Finally, labels may have additional characteristics added to =
them</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; as =
a result of local policy.</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Hence, the local policy associated with =
priority(s) *may* state that a weighted round robin in the servicing of =
queues *must* be used to ensure that no queue is ever starved. &nbsp;Or, =
a more draconian position could be taken that does allow starvation. =
&nbsp;It would be up to the operator/manager of the service to decide on =
the what is the local policy. &nbsp;This is the way its been implemented =
and deployed in a few systems that I=E2=80=99m aware of that support =
prioritization.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">-ken</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">(qualifier: just expressing my own personal opinion. =
&nbsp;YMMV, consult doctor before use :-)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue May 10 09:49:54 2016
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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I'm going to clear the discuss at this point--I wanted discussion to 
happen and it is happening. More inline:

On 10 May 2016, at 9:38, Steve Donovan wrote:

> See inline.
>
> On 5/6/16 3:45 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> On 6 May 2016, at 14:48, Steve Donovan wrote:
>>
>>

[...]

>>>>
>>>> The potential "priority scheme" might help here. But why does a 
>>>> trusted environment matter? Lets say you have trusted clients from 
>>>> vender A and from vendor B, but they select priorities differently?
>>> SRD> They aren't trusted if they aren't using the defined standards.
>>
>> What standard? The application specification? (See my question in 
>> Alissa's thread about whether DRMP can be applied to legacy 
>> applications that don't (yet) define it's use.)
> SRD> I mean application specification or operator policy.  DRMP can 
> apply to legacy applications in two ways.  First, the default priority 
> applies if no priority is explicitly included in the message.  Second, 
> operators can define their own priority scheme.

Okay. That seems to imply a need for configurability, but I'll leave it 
to you whether that should be a standard requirement, or a market 
requirement.

>>
>>> In addition, trusted environment generally means operated by a 
>>> single entity.  That operator has the job of ensuring that what you 
>>> are proposing would not happen.
>>
>> I can accept if that is the case, but it's not a very satisfying 
>> answer. It leads to having profiles for each operator. (I realize 
>> that the primary users of Diameter have always had operator-specific 
>> profiles of standards, so maybe there's nothing to do here.) This 
>> might at least imply a requirement that priority definitions need to 
>> be configurable.
> SRD> I don't see that it means a profile per operator.  3GPP is likely 
> to create a profile that spans all of its applications and could be 
> used by all operators following the 3GPP standards.

Sure, but it still _might_ require per-operator profiles, right? Even 
3GPP networks tend to have operator specific "flavors" of protocols.

But I recognize this is not unusual for most (if not all) of the 
environments that Diameter is used in.

[...]

>> So this may be down to a nit--but the text as written says that the 
>> receiver of a _request_ "SHOULD" use the included priority, but the 
>> receiver of a response "MUST" use the priority. Now, maybe these are 
>> just different ways of encoding the idea that the node may not 
>> implement DRMP. But the former seems to allow the node to override 
>> the priority in the message if it has good reason, but the latter 
>> does not allow the same for a response.
>>
>> As I mention in the discussion about my last discuss point, it seems 
>> odd that a client cannot choose it's own idea of priority over the 
>> servers if it thinks it has a good reason.
> SRD> Thanks for bearing with me on this one.  I see your point now and 
> agree it should be reworded to include allowing for local policy to 
> override what is carried in the message.
>>
Thanks--I realize my first round of comments obscured the point a bit 
:-)


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Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: No Objection

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COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for engaging on my previous DISCUSS points and comments.



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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Mirja,

Please see my comments inline.

Regards,

Steve

On 5/10/16 9:46 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> sorry for my late reply.
>
> I think the part with the two queues was a little confusing. Sorry for that as well. I originally meant to describe this to illustrate the problem rather than describing a solution. However, using two queues (which fully is an implementation detail) does not even match the problem correctly that I wanted to describeâ€¦ the actually point would be about the scheduling that one would need to implement to serve the queues. Here my thinking was that, instead of implementing a strict priority scheduling, you could also implement a scheme that guarantees a certain minimum serving rate for the non-priority-defined requests to avoid full starvation. However, I donâ€™t want to confuse you even more here. So let me try to phase my concern again (Iâ€™ve also edited my discuss text):
>
> I donâ€™t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range priority. I donâ€™t think that is what you want to achieve.
SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an requirement 
that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated even if it 
results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of lower 
priority messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>
> I think this point is even more true with respect to the discussion that went on with Alissa and Ben. There, you said, youâ€™d need to define a priority scheme for a certain application before you could use it. Given that it does not make sense to define a default priority value to for all uses because depending of with priority range you select to use in your scheme, the default might be a low, high, or midrange value.
SRD> I don't understand the statement that it doesn't makes sense to 
define a default priority value.  When defining a priority 
scheme/profile to be used within a Diameter network, all applications 
will need to take the "universal" default value into consideration.  
That default value will then be used in the handling of requests where 
either the application does not yet have a defined priority scheme or 
when the node originating the messages does not yet support the 
applications priority scheme.
>
> To make it even more clear I would like to propose the following text change in the doc:
>
> OLD:
>     Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
>     that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.
>
>     Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>     value.
>
> NEW:
>     Diameter nodes MAY set a default priority to apply to transactions
>     that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP if it is
>     known that the transactions that define a higher priority than the default
>     are always higher priority than the transactions that do not define
>     a priority explicitly. The default value will depend on the used priority
>     range in a given deployment setup.
SRD> One of the goals of the default priority value is to keep nodes 
like Diameter relays from needing to understand application semantics.  
This requirement would break those Diameter relays as application level 
knowledge is required to know if a message without an explicit priority 
value is of a higher priority.

SRD> In addition, there is only one priority range, as defined in the 
document.  It is important that the range be the same across all 
applications for the mechanism to work, especially in nodes handling 
messages for multiple applications.
>
>     Diameter node SHOULD not assign
>     a default priority if no additional information about the transaction
>     that do not define an explicit priority is known. In this case the
>     diameter node SHOULD provide a minimum serving rate for transaction that do
>     not define an explicit priority to avoid full starvation of these
>     transactions the may or may not have a higher priority than other
>     transactions that provide information about their priority.
SRD> This is explicitly NOT a requirement.  It is acceptable to starve 
lower priority messages.
>
> I hope that makes sense to you. Please propose edits (if not)!
SRD> I don't yet see a reason to change the original wording.
>
> Mirja
>
>   
>> Am 05.05.2016 um 08:32 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>
>> Hi Mirja,
>>
>> On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 04:50 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>>> Hi Janet,
>>>
>>> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
>>>
>>> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving two
>>> queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
>>>
>>> Iâ€™m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) solutions to this
>>> problem as well.
>>>
>>> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my point of
>>> view and can actually hurt the systems.
>> I hope this will help to clarify things:
>>
>> One point of assigning default priority is that as this is an extension,
>> there is a desire to avoid upgrading all clients on the network, as that
>> would be effectively trying to deploy a new protocol. Consider a network
>> where proxies and servers understand this extension and none of the
>> clients do. Then default priority would be assigned to all traffic and
>> the behaviour of the system is unchanged from the case when the
>> extension is not deployed. The default priority only makes a difference
>> if there is a mixture of clients implementing this extension and clients
>> that don't.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Alexey
>>
>>> Mirja
>>>
>>>
>>>> Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
>>>>
>>>> My comment below.
>>>> Janet
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
>>>> To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; dime@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja KÃ¼hlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>>
>>>> Hi Alexey,
>>>>
>>>> see below.
>>>>
>>>> The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower priority, you are okay to be starved. However, if you donâ€™t indicate anything (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is possible to do so), you might have the same or even a higher priority, and in this case itâ€™s not okay to be starved.
>>>>
>>>> Mirja
>>>> <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system which serves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific mechanisms)you have two options
>>>> 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
>>>> 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this arbitrary value the "default priority")
>>>>
>>>> You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what that arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different sytems/applications might have different "default values".
>>>>
>>>> But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message comes in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
>>>>
>>>> </JPG>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> DiME@ietf.org
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>>>>
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Comments inline...

Steve

On 5/10/16 11:49 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:
> I'm going to clear the discuss at this point--I wanted discussion to 
> happen and it is happening. More inline:
>
> On 10 May 2016, at 9:38, Steve Donovan wrote:
>
>> See inline.
>>
>> On 5/6/16 3:45 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>> On 6 May 2016, at 14:48, Steve Donovan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>
> [...]
>
>>>>>
>>>>> The potential "priority scheme" might help here. But why does a 
>>>>> trusted environment matter? Lets say you have trusted clients from 
>>>>> vender A and from vendor B, but they select priorities differently?
>>>> SRD> They aren't trusted if they aren't using the defined standards.
>>>
>>> What standard? The application specification? (See my question in 
>>> Alissa's thread about whether DRMP can be applied to legacy 
>>> applications that don't (yet) define it's use.)
>> SRD> I mean application specification or operator policy. DRMP can 
>> apply to legacy applications in two ways.  First, the default 
>> priority applies if no priority is explicitly included in the 
>> message.  Second, operators can define their own priority scheme.
>
> Okay. That seems to imply a need for configurability, but I'll leave 
> it to you whether that should be a standard requirement, or a market 
> requirement.
SRD> I don't see the need to make configurability a standards level 
requirement.
>
>>>
>>>> In addition, trusted environment generally means operated by a 
>>>> single entity.  That operator has the job of ensuring that what you 
>>>> are proposing would not happen.
>>>
>>> I can accept if that is the case, but it's not a very satisfying 
>>> answer. It leads to having profiles for each operator. (I realize 
>>> that the primary users of Diameter have always had operator-specific 
>>> profiles of standards, so maybe there's nothing to do here.) This 
>>> might at least imply a requirement that priority definitions need to 
>>> be configurable.
>> SRD> I don't see that it means a profile per operator.  3GPP is 
>> likely to create a profile that spans all of its applications and 
>> could be used by all operators following the 3GPP standards.
>
> Sure, but it still _might_ require per-operator profiles, right? Even 
> 3GPP networks tend to have operator specific "flavors" of protocols.
SRD> Per operator profiles can exist.  This mechanism certainly doesn't 
mandate them.
>
> But I recognize this is not unusual for most (if not all) of the 
> environments that Diameter is used in.
>
> [...]
>
>>> So this may be down to a nit--but the text as written says that the 
>>> receiver of a _request_ "SHOULD" use the included priority, but the 
>>> receiver of a response "MUST" use the priority. Now, maybe these are 
>>> just different ways of encoding the idea that the node may not 
>>> implement DRMP. But the former seems to allow the node to override 
>>> the priority in the message if it has good reason, but the latter 
>>> does not allow the same for a response.
>>>
>>> As I mention in the discussion about my last discuss point, it seems 
>>> odd that a client cannot choose it's own idea of priority over the 
>>> servers if it thinks it has a good reason.
>> SRD> Thanks for bearing with me on this one.  I see your point now 
>> and agree it should be reworded to include allowing for local policy 
>> to override what is carried in the message.
>>>
> Thanks--I realize my first round of comments obscured the point a bit :-)


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Subject: Re: [Dime] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with COMMENT)
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Benoit,

Please see my comments inline.

Regards,

Steve

On 5/8/16 7:09 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Ben,
>> I will jump in on one point, since this is related to the discussion 
>> on whether nodes need a common approach to selecting/interpreting 
>> priority values:
>>
>> On 4 May 2016, at 12:02, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>>  1.  Request sender - The sender of a request, be it a Diameter Client
>>>        or a Diameter Server, determines the relative priority of the
>>>        request and includes that priority information in the request.
>>>
>>> Question: what is the risk of DMRP ending up as the DSCP, i.e.
>>> Every end point changes the value to best service, and in the end, it's
>>> useless, and uniquely set by the operator.
>>
>> I think there's a trusted network assumption here, which would 
>> include an assumption that trusted clients do not intentionally game 
>> the system. (in contrast with _accidentally_ gaming the system by 
>> using a different scheme to set priority values.)
>>
>> However, I think that this sort of assumption should be explicitly 
>> mentioned. 
> I believe so.
>> IIRC, DOIC included some guidance about crossing trust boundaries; 
>> perhaps DRMP should do the same.
> Yes.
> That makes me think. I wonder how the following two statements are 
> interoperable?
>
>    Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
>    that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.
>
>    Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>    value.
>
>
> Shouldn't the last SHOULD be a MUST?
SRD> The reason it is a SHOULD is to allow for an operator to define a 
priority scheme with a different value, much as you outline below.
>
> Let me explain: a Diameter node wants to send Diameter messages with 
> priority above average, so PRIORITY = 12 (because his default is 10). 
> Along the path (potentially crossing a boundary), a Diameter node 
> doesn't support the DRMP AVP. The next node, which does, sets his 
> default priority. The default priority on that node has been 
> configured as 13. And now, my Diameter messages will be treated as 
> below average.
> Do I miss anything?
SRD> Yes, as described, this would be an issue.  This is one of the 
reasons that the DISCUSS threads have focused on the need to emphasize 
that this mechanism only works if a consistent priority scheme is 
applied to all messages and that it only works within a trusted 
environment.  This implies that priority values received from other 
Diameter networks likely can't be trusted.

SRD> It may be necessary to add a requirement that the priority value 
MUST be the same for all nodes within the Diameter network using a 
defined priority scheme.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>>
>> (And I guess that does make it a bit like DSCP ;-)  )
>>
>> Ben.
>> .
>>
>


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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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See below.

> Am 10.05.2016 um 17:04 schrieb Steve Donovan =
<srdonovan@usdonovans.com>:
>=20
> Mirja,
>=20
> Please see my comments inline.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 5/10/16 9:46 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> sorry for my late reply.
>>=20
>> I think the part with the two queues was a little confusing. Sorry =
for that as well. I originally meant to describe this to illustrate the =
problem rather than describing a solution. However, using two queues =
(which fully is an implementation detail) does not even match the =
problem correctly that I wanted to describe=E2=80=A6 the actually point =
would be about the scheduling that one would need to implement to serve =
the queues. Here my thinking was that, instead of implementing a strict =
priority scheduling, you could also implement a scheme that guarantees a =
certain minimum serving rate for the non-priority-defined requests to =
avoid full starvation. However, I don=E2=80=99t want to confuse you even =
more here. So let me try to phase my concern again (I=E2=80=99ve also =
edited my discuss text):
>>=20
>> I don=E2=80=99t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority =
to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority =
traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be =
starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range =
priority. I don=E2=80=99t think that is what you want to achieve.
> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an requirement =
that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated even if it =
results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of lower =
priority messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.

I think we are still talking past each other. If you explicitly assign a =
priority, starvation might be okay. However, if you don=E2=80=99t have a =
priority explicitly signaled, the transaction might have a very high =
priority but you just don=E2=80=99t know and by assigning a random =
mid-range priority this important request could get starved.

Mirja


>>=20
>> I think this point is even more true with respect to the discussion =
that went on with Alissa and Ben. There, you said, you=E2=80=99d need to =
define a priority scheme for a certain application before you could use =
it. Given that it does not make sense to define a default priority value =
to for all uses because depending of with priority range you select to =
use in your scheme, the default might be a low, high, or midrange value.
> SRD> I don't understand the statement that it doesn't makes sense to =
define a default priority value.  When defining a priority =
scheme/profile to be used within a Diameter network, all applications =
will need to take the "universal" default value into consideration.  =
That default value will then be used in the handling of requests where =
either the application does not yet have a defined priority scheme or =
when the node originating the messages does not yet support the =
applications priority scheme.
>>=20
>> To make it even more clear I would like to propose the following text =
change in the doc:
>>=20
>> OLD:
>>    Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to =
transactions
>>    that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.
>>=20
>>    Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>>    value.
>>=20
>> NEW:
>>    Diameter nodes MAY set a default priority to apply to transactions
>>    that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP if it is
>>    known that the transactions that define a higher priority than the =
default
>>    are always higher priority than the transactions that do not =
define
>>    a priority explicitly. The default value will depend on the used =
priority
>>    range in a given deployment setup.
> SRD> One of the goals of the default priority value is to keep nodes =
like Diameter relays from needing to understand application semantics.  =
This requirement would break those Diameter relays as application level =
knowledge is required to know if a message without an explicit priority =
value is of a higher priority.
>=20
> SRD> In addition, there is only one priority range, as defined in the =
document.  It is important that the range be the same across all =
applications for the mechanism to work, especially in nodes handling =
messages for multiple applications.
>>=20
>>    Diameter node SHOULD not assign
>>    a default priority if no additional information about the =
transaction
>>    that do not define an explicit priority is known. In this case the
>>    diameter node SHOULD provide a minimum serving rate for =
transaction that do
>>    not define an explicit priority to avoid full starvation of these
>>    transactions the may or may not have a higher priority than other
>>    transactions that provide information about their priority.
> SRD> This is explicitly NOT a requirement.  It is acceptable to starve =
lower priority messages.
>>=20
>> I hope that makes sense to you. Please propose edits (if not)!
> SRD> I don't yet see a reason to change the original wording.
>>=20
>> Mirja
>>=20
>> =20
>>> Am 05.05.2016 um 08:32 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 04:50 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>>>> Hi Janet,
>>>>=20
>>>> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
>>>>=20
>>>> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving =
two
>>>> queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
>>>>=20
>>>> I=E2=80=99m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) =
solutions to this
>>>> problem as well.
>>>>=20
>>>> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my =
point of
>>>> view and can actually hurt the systems.
>>> I hope this will help to clarify things:
>>>=20
>>> One point of assigning default priority is that as this is an =
extension,
>>> there is a desire to avoid upgrading all clients on the network, as =
that
>>> would be effectively trying to deploy a new protocol. Consider a =
network
>>> where proxies and servers understand this extension and none of the
>>> clients do. Then default priority would be assigned to all traffic =
and
>>> the behaviour of the system is unchanged from the case when the
>>> extension is not deployed. The default priority only makes a =
difference
>>> if there is a mixture of clients implementing this extension and =
clients
>>> that don't.
>>>=20
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Alexey
>>>=20
>>>> Mirja
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P =
<Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> My comment below.
>>>>> Janet
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja =
Kuehlewind (IETF)
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
>>>>> To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
>>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; =
dime@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on =
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Alexey,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> see below.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower =
priority, you are okay to be starved. However, if you don=E2=80=99t =
indicate anything (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is =
possible to do so), you might have the same or even a higher priority, =
and in this case it=E2=80=99s not okay to be starved.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Mirja
>>>>> <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system =
which serves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific =
mechanisms)you have two options
>>>>> 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
>>>>> 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this =
arbitrary value the "default priority")
>>>>>=20
>>>>> You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what =
that arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different =
sytems/applications might have different "default values".
>>>>>=20
>>>>> But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message =
comes in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> </JPG>
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This electronic message transmission contains information from =
CSRA that may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or =
confidential. The information in this message is intended only for use =
by the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If you believe you have =
received this message in error, please contact me immediately and be =
aware that any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of the contents =
of this message is strictly prohibited. NOTE: Regardless of content, =
this email shall not operate to bind CSRA to any order or other contract =
unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative =
expressly permitting the use of email for such purpose.
>=20


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Hi Lionel,

all you say makes much more sense to me, however, it is not well =
reflected in the doc. See further below.

> Am 10.05.2016 um 20:34 schrieb lionel.morand@orange.com:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,
>=20
> I think that we need to go back to the initial requirement.
> Today, it is not possible to give a priority handling to any Diameter =
message, except if there is an explicit handling defined by the =
application using the commands or by operator policies and this specific =
handling can only be applied by clients, proxies and servers, not by =
relays.
>=20
> With the proposed solution, it is possible to include a explicit =
priority indication in Diameter messages that can be used by any node, =
whatever the type, as soon as they are upgraded to support this priority =
mechanism.
>=20
> Now, in heteregenous networks, it is required to handle any type of =
message, with or without priority indication. Messages without priority =
indication will be handled as today, without any specific priority =
handling except defined otherwise (as described above).=20

This should be stated moe clearly in the doc.

>=20
> In this context, defining a default priority handling for the messages =
without explicit priority indication makes sense. If it is required that =
some messages have a higher priority handling, it will be required to =
upgrade the clients to enable them to include the priority indication. =
Otherwise, it will be understood that these messages could be =
deprioritized compared to others with explicit priority indication.

Not fully sure here because if you don=E2=80=99t know that this =
extension exists, how can you =E2=80=9E[understand] that these messages =
could be reprioritized=E2=80=9C?

>=20
> Moreover, the priority handling will be applied ONLY when needed, when =
not all the messages can be handled. So, in normal situation, no =
difference will be made between messages with or without priority =
indication. And when required to prioritize the messages, it is normal =
to take into account =E2=80=9Cin priority=E2=80=9D the priority =
indication included in the messages when available. Messages with =
priority indication will be handled with a best-effort approach when =
nothing else is defined (by application or operator policy).

Yes, you can and should take the priority indication into account but =
you still should not completely starve traffic that does not have a =
priority indication.

>=20
> For the record, the value 10 is not =E2=80=9Cassigned=E2=80=9D to =
message without priority indication. The node receiving these messages =
will behave as if the messages include a priority indication set to the =
value 10.

Okay, that is also not stated super clearly but important. And this =
still does not give an argument for specifying a random default value in =
this doc=E2=80=A6 Why is it important that all nodes apply the same  =
default priority handling?

Mirja


>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Lionel
>=20
> Envoy=C3=A9 depuis Surface
>=20
> De : Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
> Envoy=C3=A9 : =E2=80=8Emercredi=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8E11=E2=80=8E =
=E2=80=8Emai=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8E2016 =E2=80=8E00=E2=80=8E:=E2=80=8E01
> =C3=80 : Steve Donovan
> Cc : draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org, Alexey Melnikov, =
dime-chairs@ietf.org, dime@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org
>=20
> See below.
>=20
> > Am 10.05.2016 um 17:04 schrieb Steve Donovan =
<srdonovan@usdonovans.com>:
> >=20
> > Mirja,
> >=20
> > Please see my comments inline.
> >=20
> > Regards,
> >=20
> > Steve
> >=20
> > On 5/10/16 9:46 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>=20
> >> sorry for my late reply.
> >>=20
> >> I think the part with the two queues was a little confusing. Sorry =
for that as well. I originally meant to describe this to illustrate the =
problem rather than describing a solution. However, using two queues =
(which fully is an implementation detail) does not even match the =
problem correctly that I wanted to describe=E2=80=A6 the actually point =
would be about the scheduling that one would need to implement to serve =
the queues. Here my thinking was that, instead of implementing a strict =
priority scheduling, you could also implement a scheme that guarantees a =
certain minimum serving rate for the non-priority-defined requests to =
avoid full starvation. However, I don=E2=80=99t want to confuse you even =
more here. So let me try to phase my concern again (I=E2=80=99ve also =
edited my discuss text):
> >>=20
> >> I don=E2=80=99t think it is a good idea to assign a default =
priority to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high =
priority traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic =
could be starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range =
priority. I don=E2=80=99t think that is what you want to achieve.
> > SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an =
requirement that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated =
even if it results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of =
lower priority messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>=20
> I think we are still talking past each other. If you explicitly assign =
a priority, starvation might be okay. However, if you don=E2=80=99t have =
a priority explicitly signaled, the transaction might have a very high =
priority but you just don=E2=80=99t know and by assigning a random =
mid-range priority this important request could get starved.
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
> >>=20
> >> I think this point is even more true with respect to the discussion =
that went on with Alissa and Ben. There, you said, you=E2=80=99d need to =
define a priority scheme for a certain application before you could use =
it. Given that it does not make sense to define a default priority value =
to for all uses because depending of with priority range you select to =
use in your scheme, the default might be a low, high, or midrange value.
> > SRD> I don't understand the statement that it doesn't makes sense to =
define a default priority value.  When defining a priority =
scheme/profile to be used within a Diameter network, all applications =
will need to take the "universal" default value into consideration.  =
That default value will then be used in the handling of requests where =
either the application does not yet have a defined priority scheme or =
when the node originating the messages does not yet support the =
applications priority scheme.
> >>=20
> >> To make it even more clear I would like to propose the following =
text change in the doc:
> >>=20
> >> OLD:
> >>    Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to =
transactions
> >>    that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.
> >>=20
> >>    Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this =
default
> >>    value.
> >>=20
> >> NEW:
> >>    Diameter nodes MAY set a default priority to apply to =
transactions
> >>    that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP if it =
is
> >>    known that the transactions that define a higher priority than =
the default
> >>    are always higher priority than the transactions that do not =
define
> >>    a priority explicitly. The default value will depend on the used =
priority
> >>    range in a given deployment setup.
> > SRD> One of the goals of the default priority value is to keep nodes =
like Diameter relays from needing to understand application semantics.  =
This requirement would break those Diameter relays as application level =
knowledge is required to know if a message without an explicit priority =
value is of a higher priority.
> >=20
> > SRD> In addition, there is only one priority range, as defined in =
the document.  It is important that the range be the same across all =
applications for the mechanism to work, especially in nodes handling =
messages for multiple applications.
> >>=20
> >>    Diameter node SHOULD not assign
> >>    a default priority if no additional information about the =
transaction
> >>    that do not define an explicit priority is known. In this case =
the
> >>    diameter node SHOULD provide a minimum serving rate for =
transaction that do
> >>    not define an explicit priority to avoid full starvation of =
these
> >>    transactions the may or may not have a higher priority than =
other
> >>    transactions that provide information about their priority.
> > SRD> This is explicitly NOT a requirement.  It is acceptable to =
starve lower priority messages.
> >>=20
> >> I hope that makes sense to you. Please propose edits (if not)!
> > SRD> I don't yet see a reason to change the original wording.
> >>=20
> >> Mirja
> >>=20
> >> =20
> >>> Am 05.05.2016 um 08:32 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
> >>>=20
> >>> Hi Mirja,
> >>>=20
> >>> On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 04:50 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> >>>> Hi Janet,
> >>>>=20
> >>>> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
> >>>>=20
> >>>> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: =
hhaving two
> >>>> queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
> >>>>=20
> >>>> I=E2=80=99m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) =
solutions to this
> >>>> problem as well.
> >>>>=20
> >>>> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my =
point of
> >>>> view and can actually hurt the systems.
> >>> I hope this will help to clarify things:
> >>>=20
> >>> One point of assigning default priority is that as this is an =
extension,
> >>> there is a desire to avoid upgrading all clients on the network, =
as that
> >>> would be effectively trying to deploy a new protocol. Consider a =
network
> >>> where proxies and servers understand this extension and none of =
the
> >>> clients do. Then default priority would be assigned to all traffic =
and
> >>> the behaviour of the system is unchanged from the case when the
> >>> extension is not deployed. The default priority only makes a =
difference
> >>> if there is a mixture of clients implementing this extension and =
clients
> >>> that don't.
> >>>=20
> >>> Best Regards,
> >>> Alexey
> >>>=20
> >>>> Mirja
> >>>>=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>>> Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P =
<Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> My comment below.
> >>>>> Janet
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja =
Kuehlewind (IETF)
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
> >>>>> To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
> >>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; =
dime@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on =
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> Hi Alexey,
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> see below.
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower =
priority, you are okay to be starved. However, if you don=E2=80=99t =
indicate anything (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is =
possible to do so), you might have the same or even a higher priority, =
and in this case it=E2=80=99s not okay to be starved.
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> Mirja
> >>>>> <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system =
which serves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific =
mechanisms)you have two options
> >>>>> 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
> >>>>> 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this =
arbitrary value the "default priority")
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on =
what that arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different =
sytems/applications might have different "default values".
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a =
message comes in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> </JPG>
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> DiME mailing list
> >>>>> DiME@ietf.org
> >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> >>>>>=20
> >>>>> This electronic message transmission contains information from =
CSRA that may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or =
confidential. The information in this message is intended only for use =
by the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If you believe you have =
received this message in error, please contact me immediately and be =
aware that any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of the contents =
of this message is strictly prohibited. NOTE: Regardless of content, =
this email shall not operate to bind CSRA to any order or other contract =
unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative =
expressly permitting the use of email for such purpose.
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20


From nobody Wed May 11 03:51:54 2016
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To: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Mirja,

On 10 May 2016, at 22:47, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrot=
e:

>> Moreover, the priority handling will be applied ONLY when needed, when no=
t all the messages can be handled. So, in normal situation, no difference wi=
ll be made between messages with or without priority indication. And when re=
quired to prioritize the messages, it is normal to take into account =93in p=
riority=94 the priority indication included in the messages when available. M=
essages with priority indication will be handled with a best-effort approach=
 when nothing else is defined (by application or operator policy).
>=20
> Yes, you can and should take the priority indication into account but you s=
till should not completely starve traffic that does not have a priority indi=
cation.

This can only happen where there is a flood of messages and when it does, th=
is is by design. The whole point of this is that when a flood of messages ha=
ppens, lower priority messages get less preferential treatment, as opposed t=
o random messages (as it is now without this extension) getting less prefere=
ntial treatment.

>> For the record, the value 10 is not =93assigned=94 to message without pri=
ority indication. The node receiving these messages will behave as if the me=
ssages include a priority indication set to the value 10.
>=20
> Okay, that is also not stated super clearly but important. And this still d=
oes not give an argument for specifying a random default value in this doc=85=
 Why is it important that all nodes apply the same  default priority handlin=
g?

Because one would want consistent behaviour across the whole system. Which l=
ooks like a desired property.



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From: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
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To: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Mirja,

On 10 May 2016, at 17:59, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrot=
e:

>>> I don=92t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority to non-pr=
iority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traffic that does n=
ot support this extension (yet) this traffic could be starved by lower prior=
ity traffic when assigning a middle range priority. I don=92t think that is w=
hat you want to achieve.
>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an requirement tha=
t messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated even if it results=
 in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of lower priority messag=
es is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>=20
> I think we are still talking past each other.

Most definitely :-).

> If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. However, if=
 you don=92t have a priority explicitly signaled, the transaction might have=
 a very high priority

So some agent in the system needs to decide that a transaction is important.=

> but you just don=92t know and by assigning a random mid-range priority thi=
s important request could get starved.

Here I disagree with you, because the way to know that a transaction is impo=
rtant is to upgrade client to explicitly assign high priority to it. So defa=
ult priority is a backward compatibility mechanism, that would work for most=
 common cases. You seem to be suggesting that when this extension is deploye=
d all clients need to be updated at the same time. This is not realistic.



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From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
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Okay let me go for an example here and see if that can be a use case =
that we are talking about.

You have a system where some clients run a communication service for =
emergency doctors as well as for firefighters and then there are also =
=E2=80=9Anormal=E2=80=98 users that run some kind of communication =
service.

Now you actually have an emergency: some part of the system is down and =
the number of request is high such that the system is overloaded.

Both the emergency doctors have would have two different priority =
classes, one for important message about instruction (what and where =
people should do something) and one for communication between the =
doctors/firefighters which has still higher priority than any other =
communication of the other people (as you assume doctors and =
firefighters are more responsible to not misuse this communication =
channel).

Now only the emergency doctors communication service was upgraded to use =
this extension, but the firefighter=E2=80=99s administrations is just =
too slow or they currently have not enough money because they have =
specialized expensive hardware and software that is not easy to change.

Is it okay in this situation that the private chat of two doctors about =
their last ski-holidays starves requests to access the network to send =
instructor message to the firefighters?

(And how do i make sure that that all other other requests actually =
select a lower priority than 10=E2=80=A6? But that=E2=80=99s a different =
question=E2=80=A6)

Mirja


> Am 11.05.2016 um 06:59 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,
>=20
> On 10 May 2016, at 17:59, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) =
<ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>=20
>>>> I don=E2=80=99t think it is a good idea to assign a default =
priority to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high =
priority traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic =
could be starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range =
priority. I don=E2=80=99t think that is what you want to achieve.
>>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an =
requirement that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated =
even if it results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of =
lower priority messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>>=20
>> I think we are still talking past each other.
>=20
> Most definitely :-).
>=20
>> If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. =
However, if you don=E2=80=99t have a priority explicitly signaled, the =
transaction might have a very high priority
>=20
> So some agent in the system needs to decide that a transaction is =
important.
>> but you just don=E2=80=99t know and by assigning a random mid-range =
priority this important request could get starved.
>=20
> Here I disagree with you, because the way to know that a transaction =
is important is to upgrade client to explicitly assign high priority to =
it. So default priority is a backward compatibility mechanism, that =
would work for most common cases. You seem to be suggesting that when =
this extension is deployed all clients need to be updated at the same =
time. This is not realistic.
>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Mirja,

See my comments inline.

Steve

On 5/10/16 9:47 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Hi Lionel,
>
> all you say makes much more sense to me, however, it is not well reflected in the doc. See further below.
>
>> Am 10.05.2016 um 20:34 schrieb lionel.morand@orange.com:
>>
>> Hi Mirja,
>>
>> I think that we need to go back to the initial requirement.
>> Today, it is not possible to give a priority handling to any Diameter message, except if there is an explicit handling defined by the application using the commands or by operator policies and this specific handling can only be applied by clients, proxies and servers, not by relays.
>>
>> With the proposed solution, it is possible to include a explicit priority indication in Diameter messages that can be used by any node, whatever the type, as soon as they are upgraded to support this priority mechanism.
>>
>> Now, in heteregenous networks, it is required to handle any type of message, with or without priority indication. Messages without priority indication will be handled as today, without any specific priority handling except defined otherwise (as described above).
> This should be stated moe clearly in the doc.
SRD> This is normal Diameter behavior.  A node that doesn't recognize an 
AVP ignores it but, in the case of agents (relays and proxies) leaves 
the AVP in the message when it passes the message on to the next node.

SRD> I can add a reminder to the document that normal Diameter behavior 
applies to this AVP, this just didn't seem needed.
>
>> In this context, defining a default priority handling for the messages without explicit priority indication makes sense. If it is required that some messages have a higher priority handling, it will be required to upgrade the clients to enable them to include the priority indication. Otherwise, it will be understood that these messages could be deprioritized compared to others with explicit priority indication.
> Not fully sure here because if you donâ€™t know that this extension exists, how can you â€ž[understand] that these messages could be reprioritizedâ€œ?
SRD> It is understood by the operator of the network that is adding DRMP 
to some but not all clients.  That operator will need to determine which 
nodes get upgraded to support DRMP and in what order.  It is reasonable 
to think that the operator not upgrade a set of clients if they are 
never involved in emergency traffic.  The operator can then know that 
traffic from those clients will get default priority.  If the operator 
wants messages from that client to have a different priority then the 
client must be upgraded to support DRMP.
>
>> Moreover, the priority handling will be applied ONLY when needed, when not all the messages can be handled. So, in normal situation, no difference will be made between messages with or without priority indication. And when required to prioritize the messages, it is normal to take into account â€œin priorityâ€ the priority indication included in the messages when available. Messages with priority indication will be handled with a best-effort approach when nothing else is defined (by application or operator policy).
> Yes, you can and should take the priority indication into account but you still should not completely starve traffic that does not have a priority indication.
SRD> Under normal loads starving won't happen.  Under heavy loads 
starving can happen.  Not only can it happen, it should happen if there 
is enough high priority traffic.  Having the default priority allows the 
operator to put a priority scheme in place that will starve a set of 
messages that the operator considers lower priority than default, giving 
that operator more control.
>
>> For the record, the value 10 is not â€œassignedâ€ to message without priority indication. The node receiving these messages will behave as if the messages include a priority indication set to the value 10.
> Okay, that is also not stated super clearly but important. And this still does not give an argument for specifying a random default value in this docâ€¦ Why is it important that all nodes apply the same  default priority handling?
SRD> I'll add clarification to this point.
>
> Mirja
>
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Lionel
>>
>> EnvoyÃ© depuis Surface
>>
>> De : Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
>> EnvoyÃ© : â€Žmercrediâ€Ž â€Ž11â€Ž â€Žmaiâ€Ž â€Ž2016 â€Ž00â€Ž:â€Ž01
>> Ã€ : Steve Donovan
>> Cc : draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org, Alexey Melnikov, dime-chairs@ietf.org, dime@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org
>>
>> See below.
>>
>>> Am 10.05.2016 um 17:04 schrieb Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>:
>>>
>>> Mirja,
>>>
>>> Please see my comments inline.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 5/10/16 9:46 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> sorry for my late reply.
>>>>
>>>> I think the part with the two queues was a little confusing. Sorry for that as well. I originally meant to describe this to illustrate the problem rather than describing a solution. However, using two queues (which fully is an implementation detail) does not even match the problem correctly that I wanted to describeâ€¦ the actually point would be about the scheduling that one would need to implement to serve the queues. Here my thinking was that, instead of implementing a strict priority scheduling, you could also implement a scheme that guarantees a certain minimum serving rate for the non-priority-defined requests to avoid full starvation. However, I donâ€™t want to confuse you even more here. So let me try to phase my concern again (Iâ€™ve also edited my discuss text):
>>>>
>>>> I donâ€™t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range priority. I donâ€™t think that is what you want to achieve.
>>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an requirement that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated even if it results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of lower priority messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>> I think we are still talking past each other. If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. However, if you donâ€™t have a priority explicitly signaled, the transaction might have a very high priority but you just donâ€™t know and by assigning a random mid-range priority this important request could get starved.
>>
>> Mirja
>>
>>
>>>> I think this point is even more true with respect to the discussion that went on with Alissa and Ben. There, you said, youâ€™d need to define a priority scheme for a certain application before you could use it. Given that it does not make sense to define a default priority value to for all uses because depending of with priority range you select to use in your scheme, the default might be a low, high, or midrange value.
>>> SRD> I don't understand the statement that it doesn't makes sense to define a default priority value.  When defining a priority scheme/profile to be used within a Diameter network, all applications will need to take the "universal" default value into consideration.  That default value will then be used in the handling of requests where either the application does not yet have a defined priority scheme or when the node originating the messages does not yet support the applications priority scheme.
>>>> To make it even more clear I would like to propose the following text change in the doc:
>>>>
>>>> OLD:
>>>>     Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
>>>>     that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.
>>>>
>>>>     Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>>>>     value.
>>>>
>>>> NEW:
>>>>     Diameter nodes MAY set a default priority to apply to transactions
>>>>     that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP if it is
>>>>     known that the transactions that define a higher priority than the default
>>>>     are always higher priority than the transactions that do not define
>>>>     a priority explicitly. The default value will depend on the used priority
>>>>     range in a given deployment setup.
>>> SRD> One of the goals of the default priority value is to keep nodes like Diameter relays from needing to understand application semantics.  This requirement would break those Diameter relays as application level knowledge is required to know if a message without an explicit priority value is of a higher priority.
>>>
>>> SRD> In addition, there is only one priority range, as defined in the document.  It is important that the range be the same across all applications for the mechanism to work, especially in nodes handling messages for multiple applications.
>>>>     Diameter node SHOULD not assign
>>>>     a default priority if no additional information about the transaction
>>>>     that do not define an explicit priority is known. In this case the
>>>>     diameter node SHOULD provide a minimum serving rate for transaction that do
>>>>     not define an explicit priority to avoid full starvation of these
>>>>     transactions the may or may not have a higher priority than other
>>>>     transactions that provide information about their priority.
>>> SRD> This is explicitly NOT a requirement.  It is acceptable to starve lower priority messages.
>>>> I hope that makes sense to you. Please propose edits (if not)!
>>> SRD> I don't yet see a reason to change the original wording.
>>>> Mirja
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>> Am 05.05.2016 um 08:32 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 04:50 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Janet,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving two
>>>>>> queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Iâ€™m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) solutions to this
>>>>>> problem as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my point of
>>>>>> view and can actually hurt the systems.
>>>>> I hope this will help to clarify things:
>>>>>
>>>>> One point of assigning default priority is that as this is an extension,
>>>>> there is a desire to avoid upgrading all clients on the network, as that
>>>>> would be effectively trying to deploy a new protocol. Consider a network
>>>>> where proxies and servers understand this extension and none of the
>>>>> clients do. Then default priority would be assigned to all traffic and
>>>>> the behaviour of the system is unchanged from the case when the
>>>>> extension is not deployed. The default priority only makes a difference
>>>>> if there is a mixture of clients implementing this extension and clients
>>>>> that don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>> Alexey
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mirja
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My comment below.
>>>>>>> Janet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
>>>>>>> To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
>>>>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; dime@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja KÃ¼hlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Alexey,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> see below.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower priority, you are okay to be starved. However, if you donâ€™t indicate anything (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is possible to do so), you might have the same or even a higher priority, and in this case itâ€™s not okay to be starved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mirja
>>>>>>> <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system which serves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific mechanisms)you have two options
>>>>>>> 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
>>>>>>> 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this arbitrary value the "default priority")
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what that arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different sytems/applications might have different "default values".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message comes in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> </JPG>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA that may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The information in this message is intended only for use by the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If you believe you have received this message in error, please contact me immediately and be aware that any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. NOTE: Regardless of content, this email shall not operate to bind CSRA to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of email for such purpose.
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Please see my comments inline.

Steve

On 5/10/16 4:59 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> See below.
>
>> Am 10.05.2016 um 17:04 schrieb Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>:
>>
>> Mirja,
>>
>> Please see my comments inline.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On 5/10/16 9:46 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> sorry for my late reply.
>>>
>>> I think the part with the two queues was a little confusing. Sorry for that as well. I originally meant to describe this to illustrate the problem rather than describing a solution. However, using two queues (which fully is an implementation detail) does not even match the problem correctly that I wanted to describeâ€¦ the actually point would be about the scheduling that one would need to implement to serve the queues. Here my thinking was that, instead of implementing a strict priority scheduling, you could also implement a scheme that guarantees a certain minimum serving rate for the non-priority-defined requests to avoid full starvation. However, I donâ€™t want to confuse you even more here. So let me try to phase my concern again (Iâ€™ve also edited my discuss text):
>>>
>>> I donâ€™t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range priority. I donâ€™t think that is what you want to achieve.
>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an requirement that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated even if it results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of lower priority messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
> I think we are still talking past each other. If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. However, if you donâ€™t have a priority explicitly signaled, the transaction might have a very high priority but you just donâ€™t know and by assigning a random mid-range priority this important request could get starved.
SRD> And if this is why DRMP is needed.   The only method to insure 
these messages get higher priority treatment, including avoiding getting 
starved, is to mark the messages with a priority.
>
> Mirja
>
>
>>> I think this point is even more true with respect to the discussion that went on with Alissa and Ben. There, you said, youâ€™d need to define a priority scheme for a certain application before you could use it. Given that it does not make sense to define a default priority value to for all uses because depending of with priority range you select to use in your scheme, the default might be a low, high, or midrange value.
>> SRD> I don't understand the statement that it doesn't makes sense to define a default priority value.  When defining a priority scheme/profile to be used within a Diameter network, all applications will need to take the "universal" default value into consideration.  That default value will then be used in the handling of requests where either the application does not yet have a defined priority scheme or when the node originating the messages does not yet support the applications priority scheme.
>>> To make it even more clear I would like to propose the following text change in the doc:
>>>
>>> OLD:
>>>     Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
>>>     that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.
>>>
>>>     Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>>>     value.
>>>
>>> NEW:
>>>     Diameter nodes MAY set a default priority to apply to transactions
>>>     that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP if it is
>>>     known that the transactions that define a higher priority than the default
>>>     are always higher priority than the transactions that do not define
>>>     a priority explicitly. The default value will depend on the used priority
>>>     range in a given deployment setup.
>> SRD> One of the goals of the default priority value is to keep nodes like Diameter relays from needing to understand application semantics.  This requirement would break those Diameter relays as application level knowledge is required to know if a message without an explicit priority value is of a higher priority.
>>
>> SRD> In addition, there is only one priority range, as defined in the document.  It is important that the range be the same across all applications for the mechanism to work, especially in nodes handling messages for multiple applications.
>>>     Diameter node SHOULD not assign
>>>     a default priority if no additional information about the transaction
>>>     that do not define an explicit priority is known. In this case the
>>>     diameter node SHOULD provide a minimum serving rate for transaction that do
>>>     not define an explicit priority to avoid full starvation of these
>>>     transactions the may or may not have a higher priority than other
>>>     transactions that provide information about their priority.
>> SRD> This is explicitly NOT a requirement.  It is acceptable to starve lower priority messages.
>>> I hope that makes sense to you. Please propose edits (if not)!
>> SRD> I don't yet see a reason to change the original wording.
>>> Mirja
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Am 05.05.2016 um 08:32 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 4, 2016, at 04:50 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>>>>> Hi Janet,
>>>>>
>>>>> there are clearly more options than the two mention below.
>>>>>
>>>>> E.g. one option is the one explained in my initial comment: hhaving two
>>>>> queues, that are both served with a certain rate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Iâ€™m sure there are more (and potentially more complex) solutions to this
>>>>> problem as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Assigning an arbitrary priority is not the right option from my point of
>>>>> view and can actually hurt the systems.
>>>> I hope this will help to clarify things:
>>>>
>>>> One point of assigning default priority is that as this is an extension,
>>>> there is a desire to avoid upgrading all clients on the network, as that
>>>> would be effectively trying to deploy a new protocol. Consider a network
>>>> where proxies and servers understand this extension and none of the
>>>> clients do. Then default priority would be assigned to all traffic and
>>>> the behaviour of the system is unchanged from the case when the
>>>> extension is not deployed. The default priority only makes a difference
>>>> if there is a mixture of clients implementing this extension and clients
>>>> that don't.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Alexey
>>>>
>>>>> Mirja
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 04.05.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Gunn, Janet P <Janet.Gunn@csra.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My comment below.
>>>>>> Janet
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 10:31 AM
>>>>>> To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
>>>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org; dime-chairs@ietf.org; dime@ietf.org; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dime] Mirja KÃ¼hlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Alexey,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> see below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is, if you explicitly indicate that you have a lower priority, you are okay to be starved. However, if you donâ€™t indicate anything (maybe just because you have not been aware that it is possible to do so), you might have the same or even a higher priority, and in this case itâ€™s not okay to be starved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mirja
>>>>>> <JPG> If a message comes in without a priority, into a system which serves messages based on priority (regardless of the specific mechanisms)you have two options
>>>>>> 1- Discard the message (Not a good idea in most systems)
>>>>>> 2 - Assign the message an ARBITRARY priority (we call this arbitrary value the "default priority")
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can (and probably will) argue 'til the cows come home on what that arbitrary/default value SHOULD BE.  And different sytems/applications might have different "default values".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I don't think there should be any argument that, if a message comes in without a priority, you need to assign it a priority.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> </JPG>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> DiME mailing list
>>>>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA that may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The information in this message is intended only for use by the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If you believe you have received this message in error, please contact me immediately and be aware that any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. NOTE: Regardless of content, this email shall not operate to bind CSRA to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of email for such purpose.


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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 08:06:40 -0500
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Inline...

On 5/11/16 5:52 AM, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Hi Mirja,
>
> On 10 May 2016, at 22:47, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>
>>> Moreover, the priority handling will be applied ONLY when needed, when not all the messages can be handled. So, in normal situation, no difference will be made between messages with or without priority indication. And when required to prioritize the messages, it is normal to take into account “in priority” the priority indication included in the messages when available. Messages with priority indication will be handled with a best-effort approach when nothing else is defined (by application or operator policy).
>> Yes, you can and should take the priority indication into account but you still should not completely starve traffic that does not have a priority indication.
> This can only happen where there is a flood of messages and when it does, this is by design. The whole point of this is that when a flood of messages happens, lower priority messages get less preferential treatment, as opposed to random messages (as it is now without this extension) getting less preferential treatment.
>
>>> For the record, the value 10 is not “assigned” to message without priority indication. The node receiving these messages will behave as if the messages include a priority indication set to the value 10.
>> Okay, that is also not stated super clearly but important. And this still does not give an argument for specifying a random default value in this doc… Why is it important that all nodes apply the same  default priority handling?
> Because one would want consistent behaviour across the whole system. Which looks like a desired property.
SRD> +1
>
>


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To: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>, Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 08:21:35 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Mirja,

Today, without DRMP, all of the traffic is treated the same by relays as 
relays do not, by design, have application level knowledge.  In many 
cases, servers do not have enough context to determine the priority of a 
message.  In general, the Diameter client is the only one who has that 
knowledge.

You are correct that if the firefighters traffic does not get priority 
marked then the firefighters traffic is thrown into the default bucket 
with all of the other non emergency traffic.

The only way to avoid this is to upgrade the firefighters system. There 
is no way, without a client marking a requests priority, for an agent to 
understand the priority of a message.  Agents don't have application 
level knowledge.  Your proposal of having Diameter nodes understand the 
intrinsic priority of a message without an implicit priority marking is 
not possible in Diameter.  This is why the working group decided on the 
DRMP mechanism.

Steve

On 5/11/16 6:07 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Okay let me go for an example here and see if that can be a use case that we are talking about.
>
> You have a system where some clients run a communication service for emergency doctors as well as for firefighters and then there are also â€šnormalâ€˜ users that run some kind of communication service.
>
> Now you actually have an emergency: some part of the system is down and the number of request is high such that the system is overloaded.
>
> Both the emergency doctors have would have two different priority classes, one for important message about instruction (what and where people should do something) and one for communication between the doctors/firefighters which has still higher priority than any other communication of the other people (as you assume doctors and firefighters are more responsible to not misuse this communication channel).
>
> Now only the emergency doctors communication service was upgraded to use this extension, but the firefighterâ€™s administrations is just too slow or they currently have not enough money because they have specialized expensive hardware and software that is not easy to change.
>
> Is it okay in this situation that the private chat of two doctors about their last ski-holidays starves requests to access the network to send instructor message to the firefighters?
>
> (And how do i make sure that that all other other requests actually select a lower priority than 10â€¦? But thatâ€™s a different questionâ€¦)
>
> Mirja
>
>
>> Am 11.05.2016 um 06:59 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>
>> Hi Mirja,
>>
>> On 10 May 2016, at 17:59, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> I donâ€™t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range priority. I donâ€™t think that is what you want to achieve.
>>>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an requirement that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated even if it results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of lower priority messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>>> I think we are still talking past each other.
>> Most definitely :-).
>>
>>> If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. However, if you donâ€™t have a priority explicitly signaled, the transaction might have a very high priority
>> So some agent in the system needs to decide that a transaction is important.
>>> but you just donâ€™t know and by assigning a random mid-range priority this important request could get starved.
>> Here I disagree with you, because the way to know that a transaction is important is to upgrade client to explicitly assign high priority to it. So default priority is a backward compatibility mechanism, that would work for most common cases. You seem to be suggesting that when this extension is deployed all clients need to be updated at the same time. This is not realistic.
>>
>>


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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: (with COMMENT)
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On 5/10/2016 5:16 PM, Steve Donovan wrote:
> Benoit,
>
> Please see my comments inline.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
> On 5/8/16 7:09 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Ben,
>>> I will jump in on one point, since this is related to the discussion 
>>> on whether nodes need a common approach to selecting/interpreting 
>>> priority values:
>>>
>>> On 4 May 2016, at 12:02, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>>  1.  Request sender - The sender of a request, be it a Diameter Client
>>>>        or a Diameter Server, determines the relative priority of the
>>>>        request and includes that priority information in the request.
>>>>
>>>> Question: what is the risk of DMRP ending up as the DSCP, i.e.
>>>> Every end point changes the value to best service, and in the end, 
>>>> it's
>>>> useless, and uniquely set by the operator.
>>>
>>> I think there's a trusted network assumption here, which would 
>>> include an assumption that trusted clients do not intentionally game 
>>> the system. (in contrast with _accidentally_ gaming the system by 
>>> using a different scheme to set priority values.)
>>>
>>> However, I think that this sort of assumption should be explicitly 
>>> mentioned. 
>> I believe so.
>>> IIRC, DOIC included some guidance about crossing trust boundaries; 
>>> perhaps DRMP should do the same.
>> Yes.
>> That makes me think. I wonder how the following two statements are 
>> interoperable?
>>
>>    Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
>>    that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.
>>
>>    Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>>    value.
>>
>>
>> Shouldn't the last SHOULD be a MUST?
> SRD> The reason it is a SHOULD is to allow for an operator to define a 
> priority scheme with a different value, much as you outline below.
>>
>> Let me explain: a Diameter node wants to send Diameter messages with 
>> priority above average, so PRIORITY = 12 (because his default is 10). 
>> Along the path (potentially crossing a boundary), a Diameter node 
>> doesn't support the DRMP AVP. The next node, which does, sets his 
>> default priority. The default priority on that node has been 
>> configured as 13. And now, my Diameter messages will be treated as 
>> below average.
>> Do I miss anything?
> SRD> Yes, as described, this would be an issue.  This is one of the 
> reasons that the DISCUSS threads have focused on the need to emphasize 
> that this mechanism only works if a consistent priority scheme is 
> applied to all messages and that it only works within a trusted 
> environment. 
BC> This assumption should be spelled out.
> This implies that priority values received from other Diameter 
> networks likely can't be trusted.
>
> SRD> It may be necessary to add a requirement that the priority value 
> MUST be the same for all nodes within the Diameter network using a 
> defined priority scheme.
BC> That would help yes.

regards, B.

>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>
>>>
>>> (And I guess that does make it a bit like DSCP ;-)  )
>>>
>>> Ben.
>>> .
>>>
>>
>
> .
>


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To: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Mirja,

> On 11 May 2016, at 07:07, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wr=
ote:
>=20
> Okay let me go for an example here and see if that can be a use case that w=
e are talking about.

Yes, this is helpful.
>=20
> You have a system where some clients run a communication service for emerg=
ency doctors as well as for firefighters and then there are also =82normal=91=
 users that run some kind of communication service.
>=20
> Now you actually have an emergency: some part of the system is down and th=
e number of request is high such that the system is overloaded.
>=20
> Both the emergency doctors have would have two different priority classes,=
 one for important message about instruction (what and where people should d=
o something) and one for communication between the doctors/firefighters whic=
h has still higher priority than any other communication of the other people=
 (as you assume doctors and firefighters are more responsible to not misuse t=
his communication channel).
>=20
> Now only the emergency doctors communication service was upgraded to use t=
his extension, but the firefighter=92s administrations is just too slow or t=
hey currently have not enough money because they have specialized expensive h=
ardware and software that is not easy to change.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do that..." - "Don't do that!"

I don't think this would be a common deployment case.

I agree that there is an issue in the scenario you specified. Default priori=
ty helps with a single application + normal (unupgraded) traffic. I do think=
 it helps with the most common case. So instead of having lots of SHOULDs an=
d MAYs, I suggest we add text describing possible issues and when multiple D=
IAMETER applications are deployed we either recommend that all clients are u=
pgraded to support this extension at the same time or at least deployments s=
pecify compatible policies for different applications.

I can suggest some text.

> Is it okay in this situation that the private chat of two doctors about th=
eir last ski-holidays starves requests to access the network to send instruc=
tor message to the firefighters?

We can't prevent all problems like this, as the above is really a social pro=
blem combined with misconfiguration. But we can warn about it.
>=20
> (And how do i make sure that that all other other requests actually select=
 a lower priority than 10=85? But that=92s a different question=85)
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
>> Am 11.05.2016 um 06:59 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>=20
>> Hi Mirja,
>>=20
>> On 10 May 2016, at 17:59, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.net> w=
rote:
>>=20
>>>>> I don=92t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority to non-=
priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traffic that doe=
s not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be starved by lower pr=
iority traffic when assigning a middle range priority. I don=92t think that i=
s what you want to achieve.
>>>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an requirement t=
hat messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated even if it resul=
ts in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of lower priority mess=
ages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>>>=20
>>> I think we are still talking past each other.
>>=20
>> Most definitely :-).
>>=20
>>> If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. However, i=
f you don=92t have a priority explicitly signaled, the transaction might hav=
e a very high priority
>>=20
>> So some agent in the system needs to decide that a transaction is importa=
nt.
>>> but you just don=92t know and by assigning a random mid-range priority t=
his important request could get starved.
>>=20
>> Here I disagree with you, because the way to know that a transaction is i=
mportant is to upgrade client to explicitly assign high priority to it. So d=
efault priority is a backward compatibility mechanism, that would work for m=
ost common cases. You seem to be suggesting that when this extension is depl=
oyed all clients need to be updated at the same time. This is not realistic.=

>=20


From nobody Wed May 11 10:34:26 2016
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Mirja KÃ¼hlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: No Objection

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for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I still think this part needs further clarification mostly regarding
applicability and maybe a warning as it could lead to starvation of
requests that do not define a priority, e.g. because there are not
supporting it (yet) while effectively having a higher priortiy than the
requests that they get starved by:
"When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
   default priority for transactions that do not have priority specified
   in a DRMP AVP."



From nobody Wed May 11 10:46:33 2016
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From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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To: Alexe Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Alexey,

yes, please provide some text and maybe a warning.

I=E2=80=99ve cleared my discuss as no actual changes to the spec are =
needed based on the common understand we have now, however, I would =
still like to see further text in the doc about points that came up in =
this discussion.

Thanks!
Mirja


> Am 11.05.2016 um 13:13 schrieb Alexe Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,
>=20
>> On 11 May 2016, at 07:07, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) =
<ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> Okay let me go for an example here and see if that can be a use case =
that we are talking about.
>=20
> Yes, this is helpful.
>>=20
>> You have a system where some clients run a communication service for =
emergency doctors as well as for firefighters and then there are also =
=E2=80=9Anormal=E2=80=98 users that run some kind of communication =
service.
>>=20
>> Now you actually have an emergency: some part of the system is down =
and the number of request is high such that the system is overloaded.
>>=20
>> Both the emergency doctors have would have two different priority =
classes, one for important message about instruction (what and where =
people should do something) and one for communication between the =
doctors/firefighters which has still higher priority than any other =
communication of the other people (as you assume doctors and =
firefighters are more responsible to not misuse this communication =
channel).
>>=20
>> Now only the emergency doctors communication service was upgraded to =
use this extension, but the firefighter=E2=80=99s administrations is =
just too slow or they currently have not enough money because they have =
specialized expensive hardware and software that is not easy to change.
>=20
> "Doctor, it hurts when I do that..." - "Don't do that!"
>=20
> I don't think this would be a common deployment case.
>=20
> I agree that there is an issue in the scenario you specified. Default =
priority helps with a single application + normal (unupgraded) traffic. =
I do think it helps with the most common case. So instead of having lots =
of SHOULDs and MAYs, I suggest we add text describing possible issues =
and when multiple DIAMETER applications are deployed we either recommend =
that all clients are upgraded to support this extension at the same time =
or at least deployments specify compatible policies for different =
applications.
>=20
> I can suggest some text.
>=20
>> Is it okay in this situation that the private chat of two doctors =
about their last ski-holidays starves requests to access the network to =
send instructor message to the firefighters?
>=20
> We can't prevent all problems like this, as the above is really a =
social problem combined with misconfiguration. But we can warn about it.
>>=20
>> (And how do i make sure that that all other other requests actually =
select a lower priority than 10=E2=80=A6? But that=E2=80=99s a different =
question=E2=80=A6)
>>=20
>> Mirja
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Am 11.05.2016 um 06:59 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>=20
>>> On 10 May 2016, at 17:59, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) =
<ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>>> I don=E2=80=99t think it is a good idea to assign a default =
priority to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high =
priority traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic =
could be starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range =
priority. I don=E2=80=99t think that is what you want to achieve.
>>>>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an =
requirement that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated =
even if it results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of =
lower priority messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think we are still talking past each other.
>>>=20
>>> Most definitely :-).
>>>=20
>>>> If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. =
However, if you don=E2=80=99t have a priority explicitly signaled, the =
transaction might have a very high priority
>>>=20
>>> So some agent in the system needs to decide that a transaction is =
important.
>>>> but you just don=E2=80=99t know and by assigning a random mid-range =
priority this important request could get starved.
>>>=20
>>> Here I disagree with you, because the way to know that a transaction =
is important is to upgrade client to explicitly assign high priority to =
it. So default priority is a backward compatibility mechanism, that =
would work for most common cases. You seem to be suggesting that when =
this extension is deployed all clients need to be updated at the same =
time. This is not realistic.
>>=20
>=20


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Thanks Mirja and all for the discussion.

Authors - if you're ready, please do go ahead now and update
the draft based on all the discussion to date and we can then
check back with the various ADs who've commented. (I think
Alexey said he'd suggest a bit of text to address Mirja's
concern, so please do check with him as you prepare the
revision.)

Cheers,
S.

On 11/05/16 18:34, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: No Objection
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this=

> introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht=
ml
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> I still think this part needs further clarification mostly regarding
> applicability and maybe a warning as it could lead to starvation of
> requests that do not define a priority, e.g. because there are not
> supporting it (yet) while effectively having a higher priortiy than the=

> requests that they get starved by:
> "When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
>    default priority for transactions that do not have priority specifie=
d
>    in a DRMP AVP."
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20


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I am in the process of updating the draft.  I hope to have a new version 
for review early next week.

Regards,

Steve

On 5/11/16 12:49 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> Thanks Mirja and all for the discussion.
>
> Authors - if you're ready, please do go ahead now and update
> the draft based on all the discussion to date and we can then
> check back with the various ADs who've commented. (I think
> Alexey said he'd suggest a bit of text to address Mirja's
> concern, so please do check with him as you prepare the
> revision.)
>
> Cheers,
> S.
>
> On 11/05/16 18:34, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>> Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: No Objection
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I still think this part needs further clarification mostly regarding
>> applicability and maybe a warning as it could lead to starvation of
>> requests that do not define a priority, e.g. because there are not
>> supporting it (yet) while effectively having a higher priortiy than the
>> requests that they get starved by:
>> "When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
>>     default priority for transactions that do not have priority specified
>>     in a DRMP AVP."
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DiME mailing list
> DiME@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


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<html>
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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    I am in the process of updating the draft.  I hope to have a new
    version for review early next week.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    <br>
    Steve<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/11/16 12:49 PM, Stephen Farrell
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:573370AC.9050408@cs.tcd.ie" type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Thanks Mirja and all for the discussion.

Authors - if you're ready, please do go ahead now and update
the draft based on all the discussion to date and we can then
check back with the various ADs who've commented. (I think
Alexey said he'd suggest a bit of text to address Mirja's
concern, so please do check with him as you prepare the
revision.)

Cheers,
S.

On 11/05/16 18:34, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this 
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/</a>



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I still think this part needs further clarification mostly regarding
applicability and maybe a warning as it could lead to starvation of
requests that do not define a priority, e.g. because there are not
supporting it (yet) while effectively having a higher priortiy than the
requests that they get starved by:
"When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
   default priority for transactions that do not have priority specified
   in a DRMP AVP."


_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
</pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DiME@ietf.org">DiME@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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On 11/05/16 23:03, Steve Donovan wrote:
> I am in the process of updating the draft.  I hope to have a new versio=
n
> for review early next week.

Great,
S

>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Steve
>=20
> On 5/11/16 12:49 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>> Thanks Mirja and all for the discussion.
>>
>> Authors - if you're ready, please do go ahead now and update
>> the draft based on all the discussion to date and we can then
>> check back with the various ADs who've commented. (I think
>> Alexey said he'd suggest a bit of text to address Mirja's
>> concern, so please do check with him as you prepare the
>> revision.)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>> On 11/05/16 18:34, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
>>> draft-ietf-dime-drmp-05: No Objection
>>>
>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all=

>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut th=
is
>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Please refer to
>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>
>>>
>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>>> COMMENT:
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>>>
>>> I still think this part needs further clarification mostly regarding
>>> applicability and maybe a warning as it could lead to starvation of
>>> requests that do not define a priority, e.g. because there are not
>>> supporting it (yet) while effectively having a higher priortiy than t=
he
>>> requests that they get starved by:
>>> "When using DRMP priority information, Diameter nodes MUST use the
>>>     default priority for transactions that do not have priority
>>> specified
>>>     in a DRMP AVP."
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DiME mailing list
>>> DiME@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DiME mailing list
>> DiME@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime
>=20
>=20


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AAAAAAAA
--------------ms090305040905010904050704--


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To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 16 May 2016 11:37:41 -0700
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Subject: [Dime] end to end security solution..
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Folks,

In IETF95 we visited graveyard and reincarnated the discussion on e2e 
security. We do have one proposal on table: 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-korhonen-dime-e2e-security-03

Putting aside the JSON vs. CBOR/COSE topic (i.e., forget the encoding 
method), I'd like to have the discussion whether the framework presented 
in the draft is actually acceptable and could serve as a starting point 
for the WG solution. Yes, this means you actually need to read the draft.

Regards,
	Jouni


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Subject: [Dime] [Errata Verified] RFC6733 (4615)
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The following errata report has been verified for RFC6733,
"Diameter Base Protocol". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=6733&eid=4615

--------------------------------------
Status: Verified
Type: Technical

Reported by: Lionel Morand <lionel.morand@orange.com>
Date Reported: 2016-02-05
Verified by: Benoit Claise (IESG)

Section: 7.1.5

Original Text
-------------
   DIAMETER_AVP_UNSUPPORTED 5001

      The peer received a message that contained an AVP that is not
      recognized or supported and was marked with the 'M' (Mandatory)
      bit.  A Diameter message with this error MUST contain one or more
      Failed-AVP AVPs containing the AVPs that caused the failure.

Corrected Text
--------------
   DIAMETER_AVP_UNSUPPORTED 5001

      The peer received a message that contained an AVP that is not
      recognized or supported and was marked with the 'M' (Mandatory)
      bit.  A Diameter message with this error MUST contain one 
      Failed-AVP AVP containing the AVPs that caused the failure.

Notes
-----
The RFC6733 has clarified that only one instance of Failed-AVP AVP can be present in the command answer. One Failed-AVP AVP is enough because this AVP is defined as Grouped AVP that can contain multiple AVPs. In the present case, each of the nested AVPs in the Failed-AVP AVP are the AVPs that caused the failure.

--------------------------------------
RFC6733 (draft-ietf-dime-rfc3588bis-33)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Diameter Base Protocol
Publication Date    : October 2012
Author(s)           : V. Fajardo, Ed., J. Arkko, J. Loughney, G. Zorn, Ed.
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Diameter Maintenance and Extensions
Area                : Operations and Management
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


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To: lionel.morand@orange.com, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, "jouni.nospam@gmail.com" <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "srdonovan@usdonovans.com" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>, "joelja@bogus.com" <joelja@bogus.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)
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Dear all,

Can someone update the justification, so that this errata can be verified.
Alternatively, send me the correct justification text.

Regards, B.
> The errata is correct but not the justification. The overloaded realm is obviously the one identified as source of the command, whatever the type (request or answer). So it must be the Origin-Realm of the command.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lionel
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : RFC Errata System [mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org]
> Envoyé : mardi 1 décembre 2015 18:59
> À : jouni.nospam@gmail.com; srdonovan@usdonovans.com; ben@nostrum.com; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; bclaise@cisco.com; joelja@bogus.com; jouni.nospam@gmail.com; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN
> Cc : jkayser@netnumber.com; dime@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
> Objet : [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)
>
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7683, "Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7683&eid=4549
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Technical
> Reported by: Jan Kayser <jkayser@netnumber.com>
>
> Section: 4.3
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> The overloaded realm is identified by the Destination-Realm AVP of the message containing the OLR.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> The overloaded realm is identified by the Origin-Realm AVP of the message containing the OLR.
>
> Notes
> -----
> OLRs (OC-OLR AVPs) are sent exclusively in answer messages and not in requests. Therefore, the OLR message (answer) does not include a Destination-Realm AVP, but only a Origin-Realm AVP.
>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC7683 (draft-ietf-dime-ovli-10)
> --------------------------------------
> Title               : Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance
> Publication Date    : October 2015
> Author(s)           : J. Korhonen, Ed., S. Donovan, Ed., B. Campbell, L. Morand
> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> Source              : Diameter Maintenance and Extensions
> Area                : Operations and Management
> Stream              : IETF
> Verifying Party     : IESG
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
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>
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> Thank you.
>
> .
>


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To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, "jouni.nospam@gmail.com" <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "srdonovan@usdonovans.com" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>, "joelja@bogus.com" <joelja@bogus.com>
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Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 10:05:37 +0000
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References: <20151201175847.12786181B3D@rfc-editor.org> <24274_1449136067_56600FC3_24274_506_1_6B7134B31289DC4FAF731D844122B36E01D7CF60@OPEXCLILM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <573AD5EA.6050108@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)
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Hi Benoit,

I think that the note could just say:=20

"When the overload report is of type "REALM_REPORT", the overloaded realm i=
s identified by the Origin-Realm AVP of the Diameter command i.e. the realm=
 of the originator of the Diameter command with the overload report."

Is it OK for you, Jan?

Regards,

Lionel

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 17 mai 2016 10:27
> =C0=A0: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; RFC Errata System; jouni.nospam@gmail.com;
> srdonovan@usdonovans.com; ben@nostrum.com; joelja@bogus.com
> Cc=A0: jkayser@netnumber.com; dime@ietf.org; Kathleen Moriarty; Stephen
> Farrell
> Objet=A0: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Can someone update the justification, so that this errata can be verified.
> Alternatively, send me the correct justification text.
>=20
> Regards, B.
> > The errata is correct but not the justification. The overloaded realm is
> obviously the one identified as source of the command, whatever the type
> (request or answer). So it must be the Origin-Realm of the command.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Lionel
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : RFC Errata System [mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org]
> > Envoy=E9 : mardi 1 d=E9cembre 2015 18:59
> > =C0 : jouni.nospam@gmail.com; srdonovan@usdonovans.com;
> ben@nostrum.com;
> > MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; bclaise@cisco.com; joelja@bogus.com;
> > jouni.nospam@gmail.com; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc :
> > jkayser@netnumber.com; dime@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Objet
> > : [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)
> >
> > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7683, "Diameter
> Overload Indication Conveyance".
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > You may review the report below and at:
> > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D7683&eid=3D4549
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > Type: Technical
> > Reported by: Jan Kayser <jkayser@netnumber.com>
> >
> > Section: 4.3
> >
> > Original Text
> > -------------
> > The overloaded realm is identified by the Destination-Realm AVP of the
> message containing the OLR.
> >
> > Corrected Text
> > --------------
> > The overloaded realm is identified by the Origin-Realm AVP of the messa=
ge
> containing the OLR.
> >
> > Notes
> > -----
> > OLRs (OC-OLR AVPs) are sent exclusively in answer messages and not in
> requests. Therefore, the OLR message (answer) does not include a
> Destination-Realm AVP, but only a Origin-Realm AVP.
> >
> > Instructions:
> > -------------
> > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use
> "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a
> decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the =
status
> and edit the report, if necessary.
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > RFC7683 (draft-ietf-dime-ovli-10)
> > --------------------------------------
> > Title               : Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance
> > Publication Date    : October 2015
> > Author(s)           : J. Korhonen, Ed., S. Donovan, Ed., B. Campbell, L=
. Morand
> > Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> > Source              : Diameter Maintenance and Extensions
> > Area                : Operations and Management
> > Stream              : IETF
> > Verifying Party     : IESG
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> ____________
> > ___________________________________________________
> >
> > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,
> > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message
> > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi
> > que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles
> > d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si
> > ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci
> >
> > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
> > privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be
> distributed, used or copied without authorization.
> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete
> this message and its attachments.
> > As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable i=
f this
> message was modified, changed or falsified.
> > Thank you.
> >
> > .
> >


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


From jkayser@netnumber.com  Tue May 17 03:23:44 2016
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From: Jan Kayser <jkayser@netnumber.com>
To: "lionel.morand@orange.com" <lionel.morand@orange.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, "jouni.nospam@gmail.com" <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "srdonovan@usdonovans.com" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>, "ben@nostrum.com" <ben@nostrum.com>, "joelja@bogus.com" <joelja@bogus.com>
Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)
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Subject: Re: [Dime] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)
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Hi Lionel,



yes, that=92s perfectly fine with ne.



Best regards,
Jan Kayser

Product Manager
NetNumber, Inc.

Email: JKayser@netnumber.com
Mobile: +49 171 410 18 16



Von: lionel.morand@orange.com<mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Mai 2016 12:05
An: Benoit Claise<mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>; RFC Errata System<mailto:rfc-e=
ditor@rfc-editor.org>; jouni.nospam@gmail.com<mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com=
>; srdonovan@usdonovans.com<mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com>; ben@nostrum.c=
om<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>; joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com>
Cc: Jan Kayser<mailto:jkayser@netnumber.com>; dime@ietf.org<mailto:dime@iet=
f.org>; Kathleen Moriarty<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>; Stephen=
 Farrell<mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Betreff: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)



Hi Benoit,

I think that the note could just say:

"When the overload report is of type "REALM_REPORT", the overloaded realm i=
s identified by the Origin-Realm AVP of the Diameter command i.e. the realm=
 of the originator of the Diameter command with the overload report."

Is it OK for you, Jan?

Regards,

Lionel

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 17 mai 2016 10:27
> =C0 : MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; RFC Errata System; jouni.nospam@gmail.com;
> srdonovan@usdonovans.com; ben@nostrum.com; joelja@bogus.com
> Cc : jkayser@netnumber.com; dime@ietf.org; Kathleen Moriarty; Stephen
> Farrell
> Objet : Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)
>
> Dear all,
>
> Can someone update the justification, so that this errata can be verified=
.
> Alternatively, send me the correct justification text.
>
> Regards, B.
> > The errata is correct but not the justification. The overloaded realm i=
s
> obviously the one identified as source of the command, whatever the type
> (request or answer). So it must be the Origin-Realm of the command.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Lionel
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : RFC Errata System [mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org]
> > Envoy=E9 : mardi 1 d=E9cembre 2015 18:59
> > =C0 : jouni.nospam@gmail.com; srdonovan@usdonovans.com;
> ben@nostrum.com;
> > MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; bclaise@cisco.com; joelja@bogus.com;
> > jouni.nospam@gmail.com; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc :
> > jkayser@netnumber.com; dime@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Objet
> > : [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)
> >
> > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7683, "Diameter
> Overload Indication Conveyance".
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > You may review the report below and at:
> > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D7683&eid=3D4549
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > Type: Technical
> > Reported by: Jan Kayser <jkayser@netnumber.com>
> >
> > Section: 4.3
> >
> > Original Text
> > -------------
> > The overloaded realm is identified by the Destination-Realm AVP of the
> message containing the OLR.
> >
> > Corrected Text
> > --------------
> > The overloaded realm is identified by the Origin-Realm AVP of the messa=
ge
> containing the OLR.
> >
> > Notes
> > -----
> > OLRs (OC-OLR AVPs) are sent exclusively in answer messages and not in
> requests. Therefore, the OLR message (answer) does not include a
> Destination-Realm AVP, but only a Origin-Realm AVP.
> >
> > Instructions:
> > -------------
> > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please us=
e
> "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a
> decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the =
status
> and edit the report, if necessary.
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > RFC7683 (draft-ietf-dime-ovli-10)
> > --------------------------------------
> > Title               : Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance
> > Publication Date    : October 2015
> > Author(s)           : J. Korhonen, Ed., S. Donovan, Ed., B. Campbell, L=
. Morand
> > Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> > Source              : Diameter Maintenance and Extensions
> > Area                : Operations and Management
> > Stream              : IETF
> > Verifying Party     : IESG
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> ____________
> > ___________________________________________________
> >
> > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,
> > exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message
> > par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi
> > que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles
> > d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si
> > ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci
> >
> > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
> > privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be
> distributed, used or copied without authorization.
> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete
> this message and its attachments.
> > As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable i=
f this
> message was modified, changed or falsified.
> > Thank you.
> >
> > .
> >


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.


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	{color:#954F72;
	text-decoration:underline}
.x_MsoChpDefault
	{}
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	{}
-->
</style>
<div lang=3D"DE" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"x_WordSection1">
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi </span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
">Lionel,</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">yes, that=92s perfectly fine =
with ne.</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Best regards,<br>
Jan Kayser<br>
<br>
Product Manager<br>
NetNumber, Inc.<br>
<br>
Email: JKayser@netnumber.com<br>
Mobile: &#43;49 171 410 18 16</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none; padding:0cm"><b>Von: </b><a =
href=3D"mailto:lionel.morand@orange.com">lionel.morand@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Gesendet: </b>Dienstag, 17. Mai 2016 12:05<br>
<b>An: </b><a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">Benoit Claise</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org">
RFC Errata System</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com">jouni.nosp=
am@gmail.com</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:srdonovan@usdonovans.com">srdonovan@usdonovans.com</a>; <=
a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">
ben@nostrum.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:joelja@bogus.com">joelja@bogus.com</=
a><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:jkayser@netnumber.com">Jan Kayser</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:dime@ietf.org">
dime@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">Kath=
leen Moriarty</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">Stephen Farrell</a><br>
<b>Betreff: </b>RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">Hi Benoit,<br>
<br>
I think that the note could just say: <br>
<br>
&quot;When the overload report is of type &quot;REALM_REPORT&quot;, the ove=
rloaded realm is identified by the Origin-Realm AVP of the Diameter command=
 i.e. the realm of the originator of the Diameter command with the overload=
 report.&quot;<br>
<br>
Is it OK for you, Jan?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Lionel<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Message d'origine-----<br>
&gt; De&nbsp;: Benoit Claise [<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">mailto:b=
claise@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Envoy=E9&nbsp;: mardi 17 mai 2016 10:27<br>
&gt; =C0&nbsp;: MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; RFC Errata System; jouni.nospam@gmai=
l.com;<br>
&gt; srdonovan@usdonovans.com; ben@nostrum.com; joelja@bogus.com<br>
&gt; Cc&nbsp;: jkayser@netnumber.com; dime@ietf.org; Kathleen Moriarty; Ste=
phen<br>
&gt; Farrell<br>
&gt; Objet&nbsp;: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Can someone update the justification, so that this errata can be verif=
ied.<br>
&gt; Alternatively, send me the correct justification text.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards, B.<br>
&gt; &gt; The errata is correct but not the justification. The overloaded r=
ealm is<br>
&gt; obviously the one identified as source of the command, whatever the ty=
pe<br>
&gt; (request or answer). So it must be the Origin-Realm of the command.<br=
>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Lionel<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Message d'origine-----<br>
&gt; &gt; De : RFC Errata System [<a href=3D"mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.o=
rg">mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Envoy=E9 : mardi 1 d=E9cembre 2015 18:59<br>
&gt; &gt; =C0 : jouni.nospam@gmail.com; srdonovan@usdonovans.com;<br>
&gt; ben@nostrum.com;<br>
&gt; &gt; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN; bclaise@cisco.com; joelja@bogus.com;<br>
&gt; &gt; jouni.nospam@gmail.com; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN Cc :<br>
&gt; &gt; jkayser@netnumber.com; dime@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org O=
bjet<br>
&gt; &gt; : [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7683 (4549)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7683, &quot=
;Diameter<br>
&gt; Overload Indication Conveyance&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --------------------------------------<br>
&gt; &gt; You may review the report below and at:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D7683=
&amp;eid=3D4549">http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D7683&amp=
;eid=3D4549</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --------------------------------------<br>
&gt; &gt; Type: Technical<br>
&gt; &gt; Reported by: Jan Kayser &lt;jkayser@netnumber.com&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Section: 4.3<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Original Text<br>
&gt; &gt; -------------<br>
&gt; &gt; The overloaded realm is identified by the Destination-Realm AVP o=
f the<br>
&gt; message containing the OLR.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Corrected Text<br>
&gt; &gt; --------------<br>
&gt; &gt; The overloaded realm is identified by the Origin-Realm AVP of the=
 message<br>
&gt; containing the OLR.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Notes<br>
&gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; OLRs (OC-OLR AVPs) are sent exclusively in answer messages and no=
t in<br>
&gt; requests. Therefore, the OLR message (answer) does not include a<br>
&gt; Destination-Realm AVP, but only a Origin-Realm AVP.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Instructions:<br>
&gt; &gt; -------------<br>
&gt; &gt; This erratum is currently posted as &quot;Reported&quot;. If nece=
ssary, please use<br>
&gt; &quot;Reply All&quot; to discuss whether it should be verified or reje=
cted. When a<br>
&gt; decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change t=
he status<br>
&gt; and edit the report, if necessary.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --------------------------------------<br>
&gt; &gt; RFC7683 (draft-ietf-dime-ovli-10)<br>
&gt; &gt; --------------------------------------<br>
&gt; &gt; Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance<br>
&gt; &gt; Publication Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : October 2015<br>
&gt; &gt; Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; : J. Korhonen, Ed., S. Donovan, Ed., B. Campbell, L. Morand<br>
&gt; &gt; Category&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; : PROPOSED STANDARD<br>
&gt; &gt; Source&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Diameter Maintenance and Extensions<br>
&gt; &gt; Area&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Operations and Management<br>
&gt; &gt; Stream&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : IETF<br>
&gt; &gt; Verifying Party&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : IESG<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; __________________________________________________________<br>
&gt; ____________<br>
&gt; &gt; ___________________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des information=
s<br>
&gt; &gt; confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffu=
ses,<br>
&gt; &gt; exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce messa=
ge<br>
&gt; &gt; par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ai=
nsi<br>
&gt; &gt; que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant suscepti=
bles<br>
&gt; &gt; d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilit=
e si<br>
&gt; &gt; ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This message and its attachments may contain confidential or<br>
&gt; &gt; privileged information that may be protected by law; they should =
not be<br>
&gt; distributed, used or copied without authorization.<br>
&gt; &gt; If you have received this email in error, please notify the sende=
r and delete<br>
&gt; this message and its attachments.<br>
&gt; &gt; As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be li=
able if this<br>
&gt; message was modified, changed or falsified.<br>
&gt; &gt; Thank you.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; .<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________<br>
<br>
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<br>
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<br>
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<br>
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.<br>
<br>
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;<br>
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<br>
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.<br>
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
</div>
</span></font>
</body>
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The following errata report has been verified for RFC7683,
"Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7683&eid=4549

--------------------------------------
Status: Verified
Type: Technical

Reported by: Jan Kayser <jkayser@netnumber.com>
Date Reported: 2015-12-01
Verified by: Benoit Claise (IESG)

Section: 4.3

Original Text
-------------
The overloaded realm is identified by the Destination-Realm AVP 
of the message containing the OLR.

Corrected Text
--------------
The overloaded realm is identified by the Origin-Realm AVP
of the message containing the OLR.

Notes
-----
When the overload report is of type "REALM_REPORT", the overloaded realm is identified by the Origin-Realm AVP of the Diameter command i.e. the realm of the originator of the Diameter command with the overload report.

--------------------------------------
RFC7683 (draft-ietf-dime-ovli-10)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Diameter Overload Indication Conveyance
Publication Date    : October 2015
Author(s)           : J. Korhonen, Ed., S. Donovan, Ed., B. Campbell, L. Morand
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Diameter Maintenance and Extensions
Area                : Operations and Management
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


From nobody Wed May 18 11:31:33 2016
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Diameter Maintenance and Extensions of the IETF.

        Title           : Diameter Routing Message Priority
        Author          : Steve Donovan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dime-drmp-06.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2016-05-18

Abstract:
   When making routing and resource allocation decisions, Diameter nodes
   currently have no generic mechanism to determine the relative
   priority of Diameter messages.  This document addresses this by
   defining a mechanism to allow Diameter endpoints to indicate the
   relative priority of Diameter transactions.  With this information
   Diameter nodes can factor that priority into routing, resource
   allocation and overload abatement decisions.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-drmp/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-drmp-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dime-drmp-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com>
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Subject: [Dime] New version of DRMP draft
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--------------4B478905A350D4EB3DF41D03
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All,

I've posted the updated version of the DRMP draft, reflecting changes 
agreed to resulting from the IESG review of the document.

I've attached a diff file that shows the changes made between version 
-05 and version -06.

Regards,

Steve


--------------4B478905A350D4EB3DF41D03
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Subject: [Dime] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Diameter Maintenance and Extensions of the IETF.

        Title           : Diameter Agent Overload and the Peer Overload Report
        Author          : Steve Donovan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2016-05-19

Abstract:
   This specification documents an extension to the Diameter Overload
   Indication Conveyance (DOIC) [RFC7683] base solution.  The extension
   defines the Peer overload report type.  The initial use case for the
   Peer report is the handling of occurrences of overload of a Diameter
   agent.

Requirements

The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Thu May 19 08:58:49 2016
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Subject: [Dime] New version of Agent Overload (Peer report) I-D
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--------------7E952F8A3BCFA22B2B8CB750
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All,

I have posted version -05 of the Agent Overload draft.  The only change 
is to clean up the SourceID AVP name and description.

I have attached a diff file to this email.

This should make the draft ready for WGLC.

Regards,

Steve


--------------7E952F8A3BCFA22B2B8CB750
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From: "Bertz, Lyle T [CTO]" <Lyle.T.Bertz@sprint.com>
To: "jouni.nospam@gmail.com" <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
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Cc: Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>, "3GPPLiaison@etsi.org" <3GPPLiaison@etsi.org>
Subject: Re: [Dime] New Liaison Statement, "LS to IETF for clarification on RFC 4006 for Diameter Base Protocol"
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Jouni,

I'll take the ball on 4006.

Lyle

-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jouni Korhonen
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:43 PM
To: dime@ietf.org
Cc: Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>; 3GPPLiaison@etsi.org
Subject: Re: [Dime] New Liaison Statement, "LS to IETF for clarification on=
 RFC 4006 for Diameter Base Protocol"

Folks,

Have a look at the LS we recently received from the 3GPP SA5. Looking at ou=
r charter and what we have discussed recently updating RFC4006 is not likel=
y.. unless someone volunteers to take a ball on it asap.

I have not read RFC4006 for a long time so my memory might serve me wrong. =
The immediate things to look into when responding to this LS (assuming we w=
ould only give recommendations) relate to security.
RFC4006 AVPs seems to care about the AVL 'P' bit setting and 'Encr'.
Since both of these are deprecated in RFC6733 we better say something about=
 that.

Another thing, which is outside the LS scope, though, is the CCA CCF.
Here I am referring to the discussion in Buenos Aires on the answer message=
 when 'E' bit is set.

Any thoughts? We have about a week to prepare the reply LS. The due date is=
 23rd May.

- Jouni


5/4/2016, 5:04 PM, Liaison Statement Management Tool kirjoitti:
> Title: LS to IETF for clarification on RFC 4006 for Diameter Base
> Protocol Submission Date: 2016-05-04 URL of the IETF Web page:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1470/
> Please reply by 2016-05-23
> From: "Maryse Gardella" <maryse.gardella@nokia.com>
> To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>,Lionel Morand
> <lionel.morand@orange.com>
> Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>,Lionel Morand
> <lionel.morand@orange.com>,Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>,Jouni
> Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>,Diameter Maintenance and Extensions Dis=
cussion List <dime@ietf.org>, Response Contacts: 3GPPLiaison@etsi.org Techn=
ical Contacts:
> Purpose: For action
>
> Body:
> Attachments:
>
>      LS to IETF for clarification on RFC 4006 for Diameter Base Protocol
>
> https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2016-05-04-3gpp-
> tsg-sa-wg5-dime-ls-to-ietf-for-clarification-on-rfc-4006-for-diameter-
> base-protocol-attachment-1.doc
>

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To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Dime] Fwd: NomCom 2016-2017 Call for Volunteers
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FYI


-------- VÃ¤litetty viesti / Fwd.Msg --------
Aihe: NomCom 2016-2017 Call for Volunteers
PÃ¤ivÃ¤ys: Thu, 19 May 2016 12:03:42 -0700
LÃ¤hettÃ¤jÃ¤: NomCom Chair 2016 <nomcom-chair-2016@ietf.org>
Vastausosoite: ietf@ietf.org
Vastaanottaja: IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>

Subject: NomCom 2016-2017 Call for Volunteers

The IETF nomcom appoints folks to fill the open slots on the IAOC, the 
IAB, and the IESG.

Ten voting members for the nomcom are selected in a verifiably random 
way from a pool of volunteers. The more volunteers, the better chance we 
have of choosing
a random yet representative cross section of the IETF population.

The details of the operation of the nomcom can be found in RFC 7437, and 
BCP10/RFC3797 details the selection algorithm.

Volunteers must have attended 3 of the past 5 IETF meetings.  As 
specified in RFC 7437, that means three out of the five past meetings up 
to the time this email announcement goes out to start the solicitation 
of volunteers. The five meetings out of which you must have attended 
*three* are:

IETF = 91 (Honolulu)      \
        92 (Dallas)         \
        93 (Prague)          -*** ANY THREE!
        94 (Yokohama)       /
        95 (Buenos Aires)  /


If you qualify, please volunteer. Before you decide to volunteer, please 
remember that anyone appointed to this Nomcom will not be considered as 
a candidate for any of the positions that the 2016 - 2017 Nomcom is 
responsible for filling.

Some 229 people have already volunteered by ticking the box on the IETF 
95 registration form. 131 of these have been verified as eligible. I 
will contact all of these shortly. Thank you for volunteering!

The list of people and posts whose terms end with the March 2017 IETF 
meeting, and thus the positions for which this nomcom is responsible, are

IAOC:

     Lou Berger

IAB:

     Ralph Droms
     Russ Housley
     Robert Sparks
     Andrew Sullivan
     Dave Thaler
     Suzanne Woolf

IESG:

     Jari Arkko (GEN)
     Deborah Brungard (RTG)
     Ben Campbell (ART)
     Spencer Dawkins (TSV)
     Stephen Farrell (SEC)
     Joel Jaeggli (OPS)     Terry Manderson (INT)
     Alvaro Retana (RTG)


All appointments are for 2 years. The ART and Routing areas have 3 ADs 
and the General area has 1; all other areas have 2 ADs. Thus, all areas 
(with the exception of GEN) have at least one continuing AD.

The primary activity for this nomcom will begin in July 2016 and should 
be completed in January 2017.   The nomcom will have regularly scheduled 
conference calls to ensure progress. There will be activities to collect 
requirements from the community, review candidate questionnaires, review 
feedback from community members about candidates, and talk to candidates.

While being a nomcom member does require some time commitment it is also 
a very rewarding experience.

As a member of the nomcom it is very important that you be able to 
attend IETF97
(Seoul) to conduct interviews. Being at IETF96 (Berlin) is useful for 
orientation.  Being at IETF98 is not essential.

Please volunteer by sending me an email before 23:59 UTC June 20, 2016, 
as follows:

To: nomcom-chair-2016@ietf.org
Subject: Nomcom 2016-17 Volunteer

Please include the following information in the email body:

Your Full Name: __________
     // as you write it on the IETF registration form
Current Primary Affiliation:
     // Typically what goes in the Company field
     // in the IETF Registration Form
Emails: _______________
    // All email addresses used to register for the past 5 IETF meetings
    // Preferred email address first
Telephone: _______________________
     // For confirmation if selected

You should expect an email response from me within 5 business days 
stating whether or not you are qualified.  If you don't receive this 
response, please re-send your email with the tag "RESEND"" added to the 
subject line.

If you are not yet sure if you would like to volunteer, please consider 
that nomcom members play a very important role in shaping the leadership 
of the IETF.
Questions by email or voice are welcome. Volunteering for the nomcom is 
a great way to contribute to the IETF!

You can find a detailed timeline on the nomcom web site at:
     https://datatracker.ietf.org/nomcom/2016/

I will be publishing a more detailed target timetable, as well as 
details of the randomness seeds to be used for the RFC 3797 selection 
process, within the next few weeks.

Thank you!

Lucy Lynch
llynch@civil-tongue.net
nomcom-chair-2016@ietf.org


From nobody Sat May 21 06:29:14 2016
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From: D'Alessandro Rosalia <rosalia.dalessandro@it.telecomitalia.it>
To: "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: handling of unexpected direction of the messages  
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Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 13:29:07 +0000
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Subject: [Dime] FW: handling of unexpected direction of the messages
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Dear All,
TIM would like to submit a question on how to handle the conditions when a =
Diameter node receives an unexpected message from another Diameter peer ent=
ity.
The specific scenario we are addressing is when a node named A gets a Diame=
ter message which is correct from the protocol viewpoint but shall not be s=
ent to this node A because this node A is not expected to receive the messa=
ge but to send it from the application viewpoint. As an example this happen=
s when the receiving node A is the legitimate sender of the message. Conseq=
uently this node A should expect an answer for this message and not a reque=
st.

In our opinion, if an entity receives a request that it should not receive =
because, in the protocol, it should send the request and wait for the answe=
r, this is clearly an error case. The request should not be processed and t=
he result-code to use could be "DIAMETER_COMMAND_UNSUPPORTED"  (command cod=
e not supported by the receiver) or alternatively, DIAMETER_UNABLE_TO_COMPL=
Y.

It seems that in the current version of the RFC 6733 this condition is not =
clearly addressed and we would like to include this case.
What is your opinion?

Looking forward to your reply,

Rosalia d=92Alessandro

------------------------------------------------------------------
Telecom Italia Information Technology
Rosalia d=92Alessandro
Technical Security.SecurityLab
G.Reiss Romoli, 274, 10148 Torino
+39 011 228 8217
+39 3316001152



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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Jouni Korhonen, a Chair of the dime working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Diameter Maintenance and Extensions
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Jouni Korhonen

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 35
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: stir abfab v6ops 6man oauth radext dmm detnet




Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: [Dime] WGLC #1 for draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05
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Folks,

This email starts the WGLC #1 for draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05. 
Please, review the document, post your comments to the mailing list and 
also insert them into the Issue Tracker with your proposed resolution.

WGLC starts: 5/23/2016
        ends: 6/6/2016 EOB PDT

- Jouni & Lionel


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Subject: [Dime] WGLC #1 for draft-ietf-dime-load-02
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Folks,

This email starts the WGLC #1 for draft-ietf-dime-load-02. Please, 
review the document, post your comments to the mailing list and also 
insert them into the Issue Tracker with your proposed resolution.

WGLC starts: 5/24/2016
        ends: 6/7/2016 EOB PDT

- Jouni & Lionel


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Subject: [Dime] WGLC #1 draft-ietf-dime-doic-rate-control-03
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Folks,

This email starts the WGLC #1 for draft-ietf-dime-doic-rate-control-03. 
Please, review the document, post your comments to the mailing list and 
also insert them into the Issue Tracker with your proposed resolution.

WGLC starts: 5/25/2016
        ends: 6/8/2016 EOB PDT

- Jouni & Lionel


From nobody Fri May 27 05:30:40 2016
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From: Maria Cruz Bartolome <maria.cruz.bartolome@ericsson.com>
To: "jouni.nospam@gmail.com" <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "dime@ietf.org" <dime@ietf.org>, "Lionel.morand@orange.com" <Lionel.morand@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dime] WGLC #1 for draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05
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Subject: Re: [Dime] WGLC #1 for draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05
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Hello all,

I would like to provide some questions, proposed changes and typos, see in =
different sections to ease reading.
Best regards
/MCruz


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D  SOME QUESTIONS =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D:

1. Clause 2
Why for the definition of Diameter Node and Endpoint there is an specific m=
ention of the RFC6733?

2. Clause 5.2.3
  "In all cases, if the reacting node is a relay then it MUST strip the
   OC-OLR AVP from the message."

   But, will the relay react against the overload report received? i.e. is =
it a "reacting node" or it is just relaying the message?



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D PROPOSED CHANGES =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D:

1. Clause 2:
   Reacting Node
      A DOIC Node that receives and acts on a Diameter overload report.

  Proposed:
      A DOIC Node that receives and acts on a DOIC overload report.
 =20
2. Clause 3:

Now:
   This section outlines representative use cases for the peer report
   used to communicate agent overload.
   There are two primary classes of use cases currently identified,
   those involving the overload of agents and those involving overload
   of Diameter endpoints (Diameter Clients and Diameter Servers) that
   wish to use an overload algorithm suited controlling traffic sent
   from a peer.

Proposed:
   This section outlines representative use cases for the peer report
   used.
   There are two primary classes of use cases currently identified,
   those involving the overload of agents and those involving overload
   of Diameter endpoints that
   wish to use an overload algorithm that requires controlling traffic sent
   towards peers.

Reasoning:
  For the second use case considered the peer report does not communicate a=
gent overload, but Diameter server overload.
  Diameter Endpoint is already defined.
 Last sentence as it is, it is a bit difficult to understand.

3. Clause 3.1.1

Now:
This will result in the throtting of the abated traffic
   that would have been sent to the agent, as there is no alternative
   route, with the appropriate indication given to the service request
   that resulted in the need for the Diameter transaction.

Proposed:
  This will result in the queuing (temporally at least) and/or the throttli=
ng of the abated traffic
   that would have been sent to the agent, as there is no alternative
   route.

Reasoning:
   Traffic could be queued, at least temporally, before being throttled.
   I do not think it is required to inform about what is sent back to the o=
riginator of the initial request.=20


4. Clause 3.1.2

Now:
The second case, in Figure 4, illustrates the case where the
   connections to the agents are both actively used.  In this case, the
   client will have local distribution policy to determine the
   percentage of the traffic sent through each client.

Proposed:
The second case, in Figure 4, illustrates the case where the
   connections to the agents are both actively used.  In this case, the
   client will have local distribution policy to determine the
   traffic sent through each client.

Reasoning:
Avoid using "percentage of traffic" since it seems to imply that the "selec=
tion" of each agent is based in an algorithm that bases the distribution in=
 traffic percentages, what is just a particular case.


5. Clause 3.1.2

"In the case where one of the agents in the above scenarios become
   overloaded, the client should reduce the amount of traffic sent to
   the overloaded agent by the amount requested. "

This paragraph only applies to Figure 4, it does not apply to the Active/St=
andby case.=20


6. Clause 3.1.2

   In the case where both agents are reporting overload, the client may
   need to start decreasing the total traffic sent to the agents.  This
   would be done in a similar fashion as discussed in section *3.1.*

   *3.1* should be *3.1.1*

7. Clause 3.1.3

"Another example of this type of
   deployment is when there are multiple sets of servers, each
   supporting a subset of the Diameter traffic."

  This example does not include an "agent chain", since for each Client-Ser=
ver connection there is only one single Agent in the chain, right?


8. Clause 4

"Any messages that survive throttling due
   to host or realm reports should then go through abatement for the
   peer overload report."

  There is an interaction between PEER and HOST reports. The reduction of t=
raffic towards a HOST reduces as well the traffic through the agents in the=
 path. This should be taken into account when applying reduction for that p=
articular PEER. However, depending on the routing schema it may not be stra=
ight forward to identify what is the reduction for each agent path when red=
ucing traffic towards a HOST.


9. Clause 5.1.2
 Now: =20
 The following are indications that the peer does not support the
   OC_PEER_REPORT feature:

      The request does not contain an OC-Supported-Features AVP.

      The received request contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP with no
      OC-Feature-Vector.

      The received request contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP with a
      OC-Feature-Vector with the OC_PEER_REPORT feature bit cleared.

      The received request contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP with a
      OC-Feature-Vector with the OC_PEER_REPORT feature bit set but with
      a SourceID AVP with a DiameterIdentity that does not match the
      DiameterIdentity of the peer from which the request was received.

Proposal
	(remove)

Reasoning
   This explanation is not required, this is covered by the following parag=
raph:
   "The peer supports the OC_PEER_REPORT feature if the received request
   contains an OC-Supported-Features AVP with the OC-Feature-Vector with
   the OC_PEER_REPORT feature bit set and with a SourceID AVP with a
   Diameter ID that matches the DiameterIdentity of the peer from which
   the request was received."


10. Clause 5.2

  Now
	5.2.  Peer Report Overload Report Handling

Proposed:
	5.2.  Peer Overload Report Handling


11. Clause 5.2.1.1
Now:
   If different abatement specific contents are sent to each peer then
   the reporting node MUST maintain a separate *peer* node peer report OCS
   entry per peer to which a peer overload report is sent.

Proposed:
   If different abatement specific contents are sent to each peer then
   the reporting node MUST maintain a separate *reporting* node peer report=
 OCS
   entry per peer to which a peer overload report is sent.


12. Clause 5.2.1.2
Is any reason why "Validity Duration" is not included as possible informati=
on?

13. Clause 5.2.2
Now:  =20
A reporting node SHOULD create a new Reporting Node Peer Report OCS
   entry Section 5.2.1.1 in an overload condition *and* sending a peer
   overload report to a peer for the first time.

Proposed:=20
   A reporting node SHOULD create a new Reporting Node Peer Report OCS
   entry Section 5.2.1.1 in an overload condition *when* sending a peer
   overload report to a peer for the first time.




=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D TYPOS=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D:
1. Clause 2:
Reporting Node
      A DOIC Node that sends *and* overload report in a Diameter answer
      message.
   =20
    *and* should be *an*  =20

2. Clause 2:
*DIOC* Node
*DIOC* should be *DOIC*

3. Clause 3.1.1
This will result in the *throtting* of the abated traffic

4. Clause 3.1.3
   The handling of peer overload reports is similar to that discussed in
   section *2.2*. =20
  *2.2* is incorrect, not sure though which is the right section.

5. Clause 5.1.1
      Note: The sender of a request can be a Diameter Client or Diameter
      Server that originates the *Diamter* request or a Diameter Agent
      that relays the request.

6. Clause 5.1.1
    Supported-Features AVP, a DOIC node that *supuports* the OC_PEER_REPORT

7. Clause 5.2.5
If the request matches *and* active OCS then

8. Clause 5.2.5
meaning that *it* the reporting node

9. Clause 6.3
In the case of peer reports, the SourceID AVP indicates the node that
   support *for* this feature



-----Original Message-----
From: DiME [mailto:dime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jouni Korhonen
Sent: lunes, 23 de mayo de 2016 21:13
To: dime@ietf.org; Jouni; Lionel.morand@orange.com
Subject: [Dime] WGLC #1 for draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05

Folks,

This email starts the WGLC #1 for draft-ietf-dime-agent-overload-05.=20
Please, review the document, post your comments to the mailing list and als=
o insert them into the Issue Tracker with your proposed resolution.

WGLC starts: 5/23/2016
        ends: 6/6/2016 EOB PDT

- Jouni & Lionel

_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list
DiME@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dime


From nobody Fri May 27 13:42:24 2016
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Kathleen Moriarty has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-dime-e2e-sec-req-04: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Radia raised some very good questions in her SecDir review and I don't
see a response yet, so I'm guessing you didn't see her message.
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/secdir/current/msg06573.html

I'd like to see her questions addressed.

Is her second question the result of a typo or does air interface refer
to a wireless interface or diameter term?

I'll switch to a yes after these are addressed.  thanks.



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Hi,
Finally getting back to this.

I think authors did a good job in the latest version by adding sections
1.1 (Applicability) and 10 (Considerations When Defining Application
Priorities).

I would like to suggest the following clarification:

In Section 8:

Unchanged:
   Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
   that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.

OLD:
   Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
   value.

NEW:
   In order to guaranty consistent handling of messages from nonupgraded
   Diameter clients,
   Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
   priority value. PRIORITY_10 is a mid range priority that corresponds
   to "normal" traffic and thus would be a suitable default for most
   deployments,
   while still allowing different Diameter applications to designate
   other
   priorities for lower and higher priority traffic.

Best Regards,
Alexey

On Wed, May 11, 2016, at 06:39 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Hi Alexey,
>=20
> yes, please provide some text and maybe a warning.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve cleared my discuss as no actual changes to the spec are need=
ed based
> on the common understand we have now, however, I would still like to see
> further text in the doc about points that came up in this discussion.
>=20
> Thanks!
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
> > Am 11.05.2016 um 13:13 schrieb Alexe Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
> >=20
> > Hi Mirja,
> >=20
> >> On 11 May 2016, at 07:07, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.net=
> wrote:
> >>=20
> >> Okay let me go for an example here and see if that can be a use case t=
hat we are talking about.
> >=20
> > Yes, this is helpful.
> >>=20
> >> You have a system where some clients run a communication service for e=
mergency doctors as well as for firefighters and then there are also =E2=80=
=9Anormal=E2=80=98 users that run some kind of communication service.
> >>=20
> >> Now you actually have an emergency: some part of the system is down an=
d the number of request is high such that the system is overloaded.
> >>=20
> >> Both the emergency doctors have would have two different priority clas=
ses, one for important message about instruction (what and where people sho=
uld do something) and one for communication between the doctors/firefighter=
s which has still higher priority than any other communication of the other=
 people (as you assume doctors and firefighters are more responsible to not=
 misuse this communication channel).
> >>=20
> >> Now only the emergency doctors communication service was upgraded to u=
se this extension, but the firefighter=E2=80=99s administrations is just to=
o slow or they currently have not enough money because they have specialize=
d expensive hardware and software that is not easy to change.
> >=20
> > "Doctor, it hurts when I do that..." - "Don't do that!"
> >=20
> > I don't think this would be a common deployment case.
> >=20
> > I agree that there is an issue in the scenario you specified. Default p=
riority helps with a single application + normal (unupgraded) traffic. I do=
 think it helps with the most common case. So instead of having lots of SHO=
ULDs and MAYs, I suggest we add text describing possible issues and when mu=
ltiple DIAMETER applications are deployed we either recommend that all clie=
nts are upgraded to support this extension at the same time or at least dep=
loyments specify compatible policies for different applications.
> >=20
> > I can suggest some text.
> >=20
> >> Is it okay in this situation that the private chat of two doctors abou=
t their last ski-holidays starves requests to access the network to send in=
structor message to the firefighters?
> >=20
> > We can't prevent all problems like this, as the above is really a socia=
l problem combined with misconfiguration. But we can warn about it.
> >>=20
> >> (And how do i make sure that that all other other requests actually se=
lect a lower priority than 10=E2=80=A6? But that=E2=80=99s a different ques=
tion=E2=80=A6)
> >>=20
> >> Mirja
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>> Am 11.05.2016 um 06:59 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.f=
m>:
> >>>=20
> >>> Hi Mirja,
> >>>=20
> >>> On 10 May 2016, at 17:59, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.ne=
t> wrote:
> >>>=20
> >>>>>> I don=E2=80=99t think it is a good idea to assign a default priori=
ty to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traff=
ic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be starved=
 by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range priority. I don=E2=
=80=99t think that is what you want to achieve.
> >>>>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an requireme=
nt that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated even if it =
results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of lower priorit=
y messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
> >>>>=20
> >>>> I think we are still talking past each other.
> >>>=20
> >>> Most definitely :-).
> >>>=20
> >>>> If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. Howev=
er, if you don=E2=80=99t have a priority explicitly signaled, the transacti=
on might have a very high priority
> >>>=20
> >>> So some agent in the system needs to decide that a transaction is imp=
ortant.
> >>>> but you just don=E2=80=99t know and by assigning a random mid-range =
priority this important request could get starved.
> >>>=20
> >>> Here I disagree with you, because the way to know that a transaction =
is important is to upgrade client to explicitly assign high priority to it.=
 So default priority is a backward compatibility mechanism, that would work=
 for most common cases. You seem to be suggesting that when this extension =
is deployed all clients need to be updated at the same time. This is not re=
alistic.
> >>=20
> >=20
>=20


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From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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References: <20160504111323.8242.20592.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A8821F45-B9BA-4ACF-8EBF-01B64C100359@fastmail.fm> <B4F433FB-B2A2-4EDA-8ECF-5812BCB7517A@kuehlewind.net> <1462363396.2794286.597809745.0662E7A7@webmail.messagingengine.com> <033661D5-7963-4726-81C0-854E25C659D3@kuehlewind.net> <e6d1ab6472f14ec3b4b6b024563150ff@CSRRDU1EXM025.corp.csra.com> <F0C35A63-ADCA-4502-AC3B-C2DF5FA6EDFD@kuehlewind.net> <1462451530.3147432.598960497.7062C294@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4B86AEB1-415C-4AE3-82F7-368C38B19560@kuehlewind.net> <57324CE8.6040109@usdonovans.com> <74E6ECC0-283D-4A14-AF19-66E76EBAA743@kuehlewind.net> <B348BA8A-5A92-4E44-8ECA-76E4F3E03426@fastmail.fm> <6EF5DC36-1BEF-47EE-BB3B-83BE5E115AE3@kuehlewind.net> <993A9C1D-1B91-4A6D-B7DA-F5E829763E17@fastmail.fm> <A37DCA0E-8C6D-4056-9B0C-63A25C6C37DA@kuehlewind.net> <1464524906.507204.621875065.5A6A91A2@webmail.messagingengine.com>
To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi all,

thanks for adding the Applicability and later Considerations sections! =
That makes things much more clear to me.

May I propose one tiny edit for the Applicability section, just do make =
it super clear. If you don=E2=80=99t think this is useful, please =
withdraw.

OLD:
In order for the DRMP mechanism to work, the=09
priorities defined for all messages across all applications used in a=09
Diameter administrative domain must be defined in a consistent and=09
coordinated fashion.

NEW:
In order for the DRMP mechanism to work, the=09
priorities defined for all messages across all applications used in a=09
Diameter administrative domain must be defined in a consistent and=09
coordinated fashion, taking the default priority into account.

Thanks,
Mirja


> Am 29.05.2016 um 14:28 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>=20
> Hi,
> Finally getting back to this.
>=20
> I think authors did a good job in the latest version by adding =
sections
> 1.1 (Applicability) and 10 (Considerations When Defining Application
> Priorities).
>=20
> I would like to suggest the following clarification:
>=20
> In Section 8:
>=20
> Unchanged:
>   Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
>   that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.
>=20
> OLD:
>   Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>   value.
>=20
> NEW:
>   In order to guaranty consistent handling of messages from =
nonupgraded
>   Diameter clients,
>   Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>   priority value. PRIORITY_10 is a mid range priority that corresponds
>   to "normal" traffic and thus would be a suitable default for most
>   deployments,
>   while still allowing different Diameter applications to designate
>   other
>   priorities for lower and higher priority traffic.
>=20
> Best Regards,
> Alexey
>=20
> On Wed, May 11, 2016, at 06:39 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>> Hi Alexey,
>>=20
>> yes, please provide some text and maybe a warning.
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99ve cleared my discuss as no actual changes to the spec are =
needed based
>> on the common understand we have now, however, I would still like to =
see
>> further text in the doc about points that came up in this discussion.
>>=20
>> Thanks!
>> Mirja
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Am 11.05.2016 um 13:13 schrieb Alexe Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>=20
>>>> On 11 May 2016, at 07:07, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) =
<ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Okay let me go for an example here and see if that can be a use =
case that we are talking about.
>>>=20
>>> Yes, this is helpful.
>>>>=20
>>>> You have a system where some clients run a communication service =
for emergency doctors as well as for firefighters and then there are =
also =E2=80=9Anormal=E2=80=98 users that run some kind of communication =
service.
>>>>=20
>>>> Now you actually have an emergency: some part of the system is down =
and the number of request is high such that the system is overloaded.
>>>>=20
>>>> Both the emergency doctors have would have two different priority =
classes, one for important message about instruction (what and where =
people should do something) and one for communication between the =
doctors/firefighters which has still higher priority than any other =
communication of the other people (as you assume doctors and =
firefighters are more responsible to not misuse this communication =
channel).
>>>>=20
>>>> Now only the emergency doctors communication service was upgraded =
to use this extension, but the firefighter=E2=80=99s administrations is =
just too slow or they currently have not enough money because they have =
specialized expensive hardware and software that is not easy to change.
>>>=20
>>> "Doctor, it hurts when I do that..." - "Don't do that!"
>>>=20
>>> I don't think this would be a common deployment case.
>>>=20
>>> I agree that there is an issue in the scenario you specified. =
Default priority helps with a single application + normal (unupgraded) =
traffic. I do think it helps with the most common case. So instead of =
having lots of SHOULDs and MAYs, I suggest we add text describing =
possible issues and when multiple DIAMETER applications are deployed we =
either recommend that all clients are upgraded to support this extension =
at the same time or at least deployments specify compatible policies for =
different applications.
>>>=20
>>> I can suggest some text.
>>>=20
>>>> Is it okay in this situation that the private chat of two doctors =
about their last ski-holidays starves requests to access the network to =
send instructor message to the firefighters?
>>>=20
>>> We can't prevent all problems like this, as the above is really a =
social problem combined with misconfiguration. But we can warn about it.
>>>>=20
>>>> (And how do i make sure that that all other other requests actually =
select a lower priority than 10=E2=80=A6? But that=E2=80=99s a different =
question=E2=80=A6)
>>>>=20
>>>> Mirja
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> Am 11.05.2016 um 06:59 schrieb Alexey Melnikov =
<aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 10 May 2016, at 17:59, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) =
<ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I don=E2=80=99t think it is a good idea to assign a default =
priority to non-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high =
priority traffic that does not support this extension (yet) this traffic =
could be starved by lower priority traffic when assigning a middle range =
priority. I don=E2=80=99t think that is what you want to achieve.
>>>>>>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an =
requirement that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated =
even if it results in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of =
lower priority messages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I think we are still talking past each other.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Most definitely :-).
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. =
However, if you don=E2=80=99t have a priority explicitly signaled, the =
transaction might have a very high priority
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So some agent in the system needs to decide that a transaction is =
important.
>>>>>> but you just don=E2=80=99t know and by assigning a random =
mid-range priority this important request could get starved.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Here I disagree with you, because the way to know that a =
transaction is important is to upgrade client to explicitly assign high =
priority to it. So default priority is a backward compatibility =
mechanism, that would work for most common cases. You seem to be =
suggesting that when this extension is deployed all clients need to be =
updated at the same time. This is not realistic.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20


From nobody Mon May 30 07:54:00 2016
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To: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dime/-y_CM-NvyiiUVThetOXUri4XA0A>
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Subject: Re: [Dime] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?ime-drmp-05=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Mirja,

> On 30 May 2016, at 12:34, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wr=
ote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> thanks for adding the Applicability and later Considerations sections! Tha=
t makes things much more clear to me.
>=20
> May I propose one tiny edit for the Applicability section, just do make it=
 super clear. If you don=92t think this is useful, please withdraw.
>=20
> OLD:
> In order for the DRMP mechanism to work, the   =20
> priorities defined for all messages across all applications used in a   =20=

> Diameter administrative domain must be defined in a consistent and   =20
> coordinated fashion.
>=20
> NEW:
> In order for the DRMP mechanism to work, the   =20
> priorities defined for all messages across all applications used in a   =20=

> Diameter administrative domain must be defined in a consistent and   =20
> coordinated fashion, taking the default priority into account.

I think something like this is a good idea.

> Thanks,
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
>> Am 29.05.2016 um 14:28 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:
>>=20
>> Hi,
>> Finally getting back to this.
>>=20
>> I think authors did a good job in the latest version by adding sections
>> 1.1 (Applicability) and 10 (Considerations When Defining Application
>> Priorities).
>>=20
>> I would like to suggest the following clarification:
>>=20
>> In Section 8:
>>=20
>> Unchanged:
>>  Diameter nodes MUST have a default priority to apply to transactions
>>  that do not have an explicit priority set in the DRMP AVP.
>>=20
>> OLD:
>>  Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>>  value.
>>=20
>> NEW:
>>  In order to guaranty consistent handling of messages from nonupgraded
>>  Diameter clients,
>>  Diameter nodes SHOULD use the PRIORITY_10 priority as this default
>>  priority value. PRIORITY_10 is a mid range priority that corresponds
>>  to "normal" traffic and thus would be a suitable default for most
>>  deployments,
>>  while still allowing different Diameter applications to designate
>>  other
>>  priorities for lower and higher priority traffic.
>>=20
>> Best Regards,
>> Alexey
>>=20
>>> On Wed, May 11, 2016, at 06:39 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>>> Hi Alexey,
>>>=20
>>> yes, please provide some text and maybe a warning.
>>>=20
>>> I=92ve cleared my discuss as no actual changes to the spec are needed ba=
sed
>>> on the common understand we have now, however, I would still like to see=

>>> further text in the doc about points that came up in this discussion.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks!
>>> Mirja
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Am 11.05.2016 um 13:13 schrieb Alexe Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>:=

>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 11 May 2016, at 07:07, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.net=
> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Okay let me go for an example here and see if that can be a use case t=
hat we are talking about.
>>>>=20
>>>> Yes, this is helpful.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> You have a system where some clients run a communication service for e=
mergency doctors as well as for firefighters and then there are also =82norm=
al=91 users that run some kind of communication service.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Now you actually have an emergency: some part of the system is down an=
d the number of request is high such that the system is overloaded.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Both the emergency doctors have would have two different priority clas=
ses, one for important message about instruction (what and where people shou=
ld do something) and one for communication between the doctors/firefighters w=
hich has still higher priority than any other communication of the other peo=
ple (as you assume doctors and firefighters are more responsible to not misu=
se this communication channel).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Now only the emergency doctors communication service was upgraded to u=
se this extension, but the firefighter=92s administrations is just too slow o=
r they currently have not enough money because they have specialized expensi=
ve hardware and software that is not easy to change.
>>>>=20
>>>> "Doctor, it hurts when I do that..." - "Don't do that!"
>>>>=20
>>>> I don't think this would be a common deployment case.
>>>>=20
>>>> I agree that there is an issue in the scenario you specified. Default p=
riority helps with a single application + normal (unupgraded) traffic. I do t=
hink it helps with the most common case. So instead of having lots of SHOULD=
s and MAYs, I suggest we add text describing possible issues and when multip=
le DIAMETER applications are deployed we either recommend that all clients a=
re upgraded to support this extension at the same time or at least deploymen=
ts specify compatible policies for different applications.
>>>>=20
>>>> I can suggest some text.
>>>>=20
>>>>> Is it okay in this situation that the private chat of two doctors abou=
t their last ski-holidays starves requests to access the network to send ins=
tructor message to the firefighters?
>>>>=20
>>>> We can't prevent all problems like this, as the above is really a socia=
l problem combined with misconfiguration. But we can warn about it.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (And how do i make sure that that all other other requests actually se=
lect a lower priority than 10=85? But that=92s a different question=85)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Mirja
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Am 11.05.2016 um 06:59 schrieb Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.f=
m>:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 10 May 2016, at 17:59, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.ne=
t> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> I don=92t think it is a good idea to assign a default priority to n=
on-priority-defined requests at all. If you have high priority traffic that d=
oes not support this extension (yet) this traffic could be starved by lower p=
riority traffic when assigning a middle range priority. I don=92t think that=
 is what you want to achieve.
>>>>>>>> SRD> Actually, this is what we want to achieve.  It is an requireme=
nt that messages explicitly marked as high priority get treated even if it r=
esults in starving lower priority messages.  The starving of lower priority m=
essages is not an problem, it is a requirement.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I think we are still talking past each other.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Most definitely :-).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> If you explicitly assign a priority, starvation might be okay. Howev=
er, if you don=92t have a priority explicitly signaled, the transaction migh=
t have a very high priority
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> So some agent in the system needs to decide that a transaction is imp=
ortant.
>>>>>>> but you just don=92t know and by assigning a random mid-range priori=
ty this important request could get starved.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Here I disagree with you, because the way to know that a transaction i=
s important is to upgrade client to explicitly assign high priority to it. S=
o default priority is a backward compatibility mechanism, that would work fo=
r most common cases. You seem to be suggesting that when this extension is d=
eployed all clients need to be updated at the same time. This is not realist=
ic.
>=20


From nobody Mon May 30 14:40:14 2016
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From: =?utf-8?Q?Dan_Garc=C3=ADa_Carrillo?= <dan.garcia@um.es>
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Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 23:40:03 +0200
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Subject: [Dime] Diameter LoRaWAN Application
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Dear all,

We have uploaded a draft to show an initiative towards the integration =
of AAA infrastructures into LP-WAN. This document show an example of how =
the LoRaWAN join procedure can be used with Diameter.

Comments are welcome.=20

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-garcia-dime-diameter-lorawan/


Best Regards,
Dan.


From nobody Tue May 31 20:37:47 2016
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From: "Alissa Cooper" <alissa@cooperw.in>
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Cc: draft-ietf-dime-drmp@ietf.org, dime-chairs@ietf.org, dime@ietf.org
Subject: [Dime] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-dime-drmp-06: (with COMMENT)
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Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-dime-drmp-06: No Objection

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COMMENT:
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Thank you for resolving the issues I raised.


