From nobody Sun Apr 10 09:56:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2693112B043 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 09:56:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=x06YFk8O; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=2BHZ8hIM Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KHa0Rvxqi-td for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 09:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5DD12B02E for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 09:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3AGu16R026251 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 09:56:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1460307369; x=1460393769; bh=X7hvDDMfhuXfhwAx5uRr11jsBUlTymEyULQyC4GCin4=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=x06YFk8O8NtgN0wpZwJX1+uGDmhLehQjwPzy2f2aCPh6fUcD02vux1IG7X++v2uAM dgkMJ0bCqf0kTpksqrwjVBditXPdVdo1MpdgkE22cUh1LKUF7wJp4UBWv4HZ4Fu4YS WCI8udKF9gjm6z3TL1jZ7Ixy1pPP5DtrMAABlLB4= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1460307369; x=1460393769; i=@resistor.net; bh=X7hvDDMfhuXfhwAx5uRr11jsBUlTymEyULQyC4GCin4=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=2BHZ8hIM2E5I7KrOWeKgvme9tGp/7hsehK1LtDY3BEVTv0uO/wiHThkFn1kcFIsk9 08Pvgz81Zr19PJeBFK4qaqxkTRU0Z7HdbKzNXKrG6yENr7WtFMS118YLG5sYKDL5PQ kxFiLuYT5rIyNI/zZjq9qGphCamQjCQe5ulKywqY= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 09:55:12 -0700 To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir From: SM In-Reply-To: <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.c om> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:56:15 -0000 Hi Nalini, At 06:08 10-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >Guys, believe me, I am not for discrimination in any form whatsoever >and of course, it is wonderful if IETFers want to bring their family >with them to locations but isn't it more important for the IETFer >themselves to attend and to not be harassed? Does IETF need to >plan for not just attendees but attendee's families? I'll skip the question. >A lot of us have never said anything but people might want to read >the section that is in Wikipedia on "White Privilege". >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege > >This might help put a different perspective on this discussion. > >I know at least one participant at IETF95 who was searched multiple >times at the same airport because his skin was brown and we suspect >that he was profiled. You may look at compilations which have rank >countries by racist attitudes and in some, the United States comes in first. > >But, you do not hear us talking about this or even complaining or >suggesting that we are getting an unfair deal. We just work harder >and try to support each other. The pie chart of IETF 95 attendees shows that approximately 35% of the attendees were from the United States. It's striking that the attendees who raised issues about IETF meeting venues are usually from the United States. I guess that IETF attendees from the United States are quite vocal about unfair deals. >And, this kind of thing - getting hassled, ignored in restaurants, >possibly physically assaulted if we are in the wrong area, etc.etc. >is for IETF participants. Not, IETFer's bringing their families - >which I will add is not an option for many in the developing world >because it is far too expensive. It is hard enough for the IETFer >himself / herself to attend - much less bring their family. I don't recall reading a lot of complaints about Hawaii being an exotic location or being too far. There are usually complaints when an IETF meeting is held outside Northern America. Do people outside the United States complain about discrimination, being ignored, etc.? A quick look at ietf@ietf.org does not show a significant volume of issues from the 65%. The following is from Paypal: https://www.paypal.com/stories/us/paypal-withdraws-plan-for-charlotte-expansion Will the IETF adopt a similar position about Singapore? >Let's try to work with each other and support each other to bring >the collaborative attitudes and openness that underlie the Internet >and the openness of the IETF to the developing world. I think that >we are agents of change just as the Internet is an agent of >change. Unfortunately, sometimes, there are costs to be borne for >this. We need to look at the greater good. How can that greater good be determined? Would it be based on IETF Consensus? Would it be left to the discretion of the IASA as that body has been given the responsibility for administrative issues? Would it be left to the IETF Chair given that he has been chosen by Eligible Voters? Regards, -sm From nobody Sun Apr 10 10:19:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051CB12D608 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:19:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qdwx5N4Nyh4R for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6449F12B051 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBFEBE25; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:19:14 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3CDesUWirmFh; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:19:12 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.49.100] (unknown [86.46.23.241]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EDADEBDF9; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:19:11 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1460308752; bh=JxgC9jev6txW4P2Yh/ucFr6Hvm2fZ05bAXqLC+EEP5Q=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=oxnnH2WwOl7DqA6vGno3a3W4I66mWhBt4vuk0cYnk3E4yXeklpK+kWdzHMIDu8w2S xFQbyWCxEdZCXc4OZMYaKyH5MnlDbR/9QoV+PYvLSU6U5zspOUQG7V2r3cxWPDmtF2 O1SQdHu3IBU34a0ocxDYuGL3Nqvy2gOeLq54jjhk= To: SM , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:19:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms020705000102050303090707" Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 17:19:19 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020705000102050303090707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi SM, On 10/04/16 17:55, SM wrote: > Hi Nalini, > At 06:08 10-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >> Guys, believe me, I am not for discrimination in any form whatsoever >> and of course, it is wonderful if IETFers want to bring their family >> with them to locations but isn't it more important for the IETFer >> themselves to attend and to not be harassed? Does IETF need to plan >> for not just attendees but attendee's families? >=20 > I'll skip the question. >=20 >> A lot of us have never said anything but people might want to read the= >> section that is in Wikipedia on "White Privilege". >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege >> >> This might help put a different perspective on this discussion. >> >> I know at least one participant at IETF95 who was searched multiple >> times at the same airport because his skin was brown and we suspect >> that he was profiled. You may look at compilations which have rank >> countries by racist attitudes and in some, the United States comes in >> first. >> >> But, you do not hear us talking about this or even complaining or >> suggesting that we are getting an unfair deal. We just work harder >> and try to support each other. >=20 > The pie chart of IETF 95 attendees shows that approximately 35% of the > attendees were from the United States. It's striking that the attendee= s > who raised issues about IETF meeting venues are usually from the United= > States. I guess that IETF attendees from the United States are quite > vocal about unfair deals. I think that's fair. I suspect that the physical size of the US also means that some participants from the US are less used to crossing borders than e.g. those from smaller countries. Though I'm not sure how that affects this specific situation. >=20 >> And, this kind of thing - getting hassled, ignored in restaurants, >> possibly physically assaulted if we are in the wrong area, etc.etc. is= >> for IETF participants. Not, IETFer's bringing their families - which >> I will add is not an option for many in the developing world because >> it is far too expensive. It is hard enough for the IETFer himself / >> herself to attend - much less bring their family. >=20 > I don't recall reading a lot of complaints about Hawaii being an exotic= > location or being too far. =20 Sorry, I think you're wrong there. I do recall such issues being raised by US and non-US participants. > There are usually complaints when an IETF > meeting is held outside Northern America. Do people outside the United= > States complain about discrimination, being ignored, etc.? A quick loo= k > at ietf@ietf.org does not show a significant volume of issues from the = 65%. I don't think that's fair, but I've not counted. Did you do such a count? While our US participants may be the best of us when it comes to complaining they are IMO by no means alone:-) >=20 > The following is from Paypal: > https://www.paypal.com/stories/us/paypal-withdraws-plan-for-charlotte-e= xpansion > Will the IETF adopt a similar position about Singapore? >=20 >> Let's try to work with each other and support each other to bring the >> collaborative attitudes and openness that underlie the Internet and >> the openness of the IETF to the developing world. I think that we are= >> agents of change just as the Internet is an agent of change.=20 >> Unfortunately, sometimes, there are costs to be borne for this. We >> need to look at the greater good. >=20 > How can that greater good be determined? Would it be based on IETF > Consensus? Would it be left to the discretion of the IASA as that body= > has been given the responsibility for administrative issues? Would it > be left to the IETF Chair given that he has been chosen by Eligible Vot= ers? Personally, I don't believe that there is any need for us to establish IETF consensus on every possible venue selection criterion. What I think needs to happen is that the IAOC need to decide that information they process or create will be openly available as the default, while also identifying the specific kinds of information that they do need to keep confidential (e.g. hotel contract details). I think that is how we avoid future situations like this one and how we could get a sense, well ahead of time, as to the issues that affect different venues for f2f meetings. I also think that is a 180-degree change - currently ISTM that the IAOC operate in default-secret mode, whereas they ought swap around to be default-public, with identified exceptions. I think if we focus our energies on getting that change (and checking it's carried out) then I hope that means we won't need to try and probably fail to reach IETF consensus on some of these trickier issues. Cheers, S. >=20 > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity >=20 --------------ms020705000102050303090707 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra 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diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D7B12B05F for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:58:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I_oHfTTI4hhF for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FC0F12B053 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-10-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.10.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3AHvoJi001876 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:57:51 -0700 To: Stephen Farrell , SM , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:57:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 10:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 17:58:02 -0000 On 4/10/2016 10:19 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > What I think needs to happen is that the IAOC need to decide that > information they process or create will be openly available as the > default, while also identifying the specific kinds of information > that they do need to keep confidential (e.g. hotel contract details). That model can and does work for criteria subject to relatively objective and relatively consistent analysis. On matters of political, social and environment concern, the community's concerns and reactions are significantly less predictable. The IAOC (and the Meetings Committee that I participate in) means well and attempts to be diligent, but it simply is not certain (or IMO, likely) to adequately assess these kinds of community concerns well enough. Last week demonstrated that. 'Transparency' is not a magical incantation. The specifics of its nature and timing determine its efficacy. In this case, merely publishing 'criteria' leaves an entire analysis process to be unpredictable; and having everyone inspect that process in real-time -- this is called a fishbowl) is not practical. Having them inspect it post hoc is, at best, inefficient. My own view is that the only way to make sure that a venue is acceptable to the community is to publish a list of candidate venues, as early as possible, and let the community debate any concerns it might have. We already have a repertoire of acceptable venues. IMO, we therefore can afford to be quite cavalier about rejecting new venues. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Apr 10 12:25:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4C812D102 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:25:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DT8KFMsZk1YQ for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEA7A12D0E5 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F52BE2D; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:25:22 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4iGt-A7zGUri; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:25:21 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.49.100] (unknown [86.46.23.241]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 618FCBE25; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:25:20 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1460316321; bh=/pd6zfOKHQ/4ttcY2UK4ndLQjQDVCK6yUtY727DwsdY=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=CWqTQfbkqzNmWD70t2+JPKZWXVLo96B5wCKXdhwy2TD3R8mqQH4UyELinoc7VcfTY xsDw+g/aNyq+8QBd8cC0Z/0cP9aNpC3zeLdldFUeEF04ac6Qc7S6PWDr8F/dxSqBBV lKl/ZqvvhK4PTDTGZ3DXCJFWNtwBzK7QDM61XKsw= To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, SM , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:25:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms050702040906080502090306" Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 19:25:27 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050702040906080502090306 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave, (We're maybe wandering from the direct relevance to this list, but I think many of the right people are subscribed to most of the possible lists so let's continue...) On 10/04/16 18:57, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 4/10/2016 10:19 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> What I think needs to happen is that the IAOC need to decide that >> information they process or create will be openly available as the >> default, while also identifying the specific kinds of information >> that they do need to keep confidential (e.g. hotel contract details). >=20 >=20 > That model can and does work for criteria subject to relatively > objective and relatively consistent analysis. >=20 > On matters of political, social and environment concern, the community'= s > concerns and reactions are significantly less predictable. >=20 > The IAOC (and the Meetings Committee that I participate in) means well > and attempts to be diligent, but it simply is not certain (or IMO, > likely) to adequately assess these kinds of community concerns well > enough. Last week demonstrated that. I do agree, both that folks are well meaning and that we're almost certainly going to have future surprises and issues to tackle no matter what we do. >=20 > 'Transparency' is not a magical incantation. The specifics of its > nature and timing determine its efficacy. =20 Sure. > In this case, merely > publishing 'criteria'=20 That was not at all my suggestion. Sorry if I was unclear. See below. > leaves an entire analysis process to be > unpredictable; and having everyone inspect that process in real-time --= > this is called a fishbowl) is not practical. Having them inspect it > post hoc is, at best, inefficient. >=20 > My own view is that the only way to make sure that a venue is acceptabl= e > to the community is to publish a list of candidate venues, as early as > possible, and let the community debate any concerns it might have. That is one necessary aspect of transparency. But if the IAOC consider that making just this one change is enough to tackle the longer term issue (i.e. things not specific to IETF-100) then we are heading for more failures. Personally, I do not think that making just that one entirely obvious change is anywhere near sufficient - IMO the IAOC needs to re-examine all the things it does that are not open. >=20 > We already have a repertoire of acceptable venues. IMO, we therefore > can afford to be quite cavalier about rejecting new venues. I've no strong opinion on that. But since I apparently was not clear enough before, here's another attempt to say what, in addition to handling IETF-100 specifics, I think the IAOC needs to do now: - Decide to, and announce, that the default position is to be open with all data, email etc. That should happen now. (Or should have happened already perhaps.) - Publicly describe the specific kinds of information that are not handled according to the default-open policy. I think that is mostly hotel-contract specifics and RFPs but maybe there's more. (While that could be a lot of work if attempted at a fine granularity, I hope there's an easy way to get to an accurate coarse grained description.) I reckon a new mailing list would be best for that 2nd bit as it is not all specific to hotels, nor to f2f meetings. And it might take an iteration or two to get right so it's understood and acceptable to the community. I'm quite sure the community will want to discuss the above if/when the IAOC make such statements. I'm equally sure that if the IAOC do not make some such statements about open-ness then the community is likely to demand to discuss that inaction. Lastly, having seen the incremental increases in open-ness that the IESG has made in the last 5 years, and that not one of those has had a bad effect that I can recall, despite some fears each time we opened up more, I think that while some IAOC folks might understandably be a bit afraid of a default-open policy, I reckon doing so is likely to just work, if done well. Cheers, S. >=20 >=20 > d/ --------------ms050702040906080502090306 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra C9F2RjGdQZjNALLcW9C3WKTwYII3wBslobmHuPEYE5JaGItmzuKnAW619R1rD/kfoNWC19N3 rBZ6UX9Cmb9D9exCwYIwVuSwjrCQWGxgCtNQTrwKzCCpI790GRiMTvxvO7UmzmBrCaBLiZW5 R0fBjK5Yn6hUhAzGBkNbkIEL28cLJqH0yVz7Kl92OlzrQqTPEts5m6cDnNdY/ADfeAX18c1r 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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l3jI9wOHGllM for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1529512D0F2 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-10-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.10.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3AJn7YW004030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:49:07 -0700 To: Stephen Farrell , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <570AAE2E.9060000@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:49:02 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 12:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 19:49:14 -0000 Stephen, > (We're maybe wandering from the direct relevance to this list, > but I think many of the right people are subscribed to most of > the possible lists so let's continue...) Actually, we're not. There is a tendency to believe that diversity issues are solved by better awareness, or better documentation, or more diligent attention, or by enforcing well-intentioned-but-artificial membership quotas on committees. None of those suffice for complex and emotional social concerns, of the sort we are currently seeing. So discussion about the best ways to ensure on-going handling of such issues is entirely relevant. >> The IAOC (and the Meetings Committee that I participate in) means well >> and attempts to be diligent, but it simply is not certain (or IMO, >> likely) to adequately assess these kinds of community concerns well >> enough. Last week demonstrated that. > > I do agree, both that folks are well meaning and that we're > almost certainly going to have future surprises and issues > to tackle no matter what we do. What I am advocating -- and I'm not the one who put the idea forward -- /does/ ensure no further surprises about basic venue legal, environmental, political or social acceptability. > But since I apparently was not clear enough before, here's another > attempt to say what, in addition to handling IETF-100 specifics, > I think the IAOC needs to do now: > > - Decide to, and announce, that the default position is to be open > with all data, email etc. That should happen now. (Or should have > happened already perhaps.) > > - Publicly describe the specific kinds of information that are not > handled according to the default-open policy. Stephen, that's an example of magical thinking about transparency. Sounds good but isn't practical for most administrative work or most administrative environments. In ignores costs and inefficiencies and imposes unrealistic burdens on the folk doing the work. (By the way, it also imposes unrealistic burdens on the community, who have to pay very close attention, all the time, to all this new detail being made available...) Further, you are calling for massive operational changes, with only modest direct relationship to the problem at hand. By contrast, the suggestion I'm advocating is simple, cheap, safe, and effective for exactly the kind of issue at hand. > Lastly, having seen the incremental increases in open-ness that the > IESG has made in the last 5 years, and that not one of those has had > a bad effect that I can recall, despite some fears each time we opened > up more, I think that while some IAOC folks might understandably > be a bit afraid of a default-open policy, I reckon doing so is likely > to just work, if done well. I'm in favor of a great deal of openness. And I concur that the IESG steps have been a Good Thing. But IMO venue administrative work is quite different. At the least, the politics of turning down a venue and/or a host involves far more delicacy than is possible with a fishbowl operational model. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Apr 10 13:14:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A637812D12A for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 13:14:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=yrvggcnU; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=zOHqou1m Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FED5teuLoEP8 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1C012D0B6 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3AKEVYd021960 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 13:14:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1460319279; x=1460405679; bh=vmapoUc7k0DZHOL5lBPz8/ZOmi8fmt6QtCHgJCTljAM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=yrvggcnUi8Q+35yBnV0NK/7AiPj1PiORcbcDmacJzR0rhWiQA9Edx3P6ZggYokaxr rY+HHJrBv7iHBAbWWgbfr1NuueGgvlLU4VNdgHwsmlhxSc1ES689aHtS/PsXM0sIU5 wrbRYTmNPguwmRQqocZxkOwnNaeaZq21I5K5/8gs= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1460319279; x=1460405679; i=@resistor.net; bh=vmapoUc7k0DZHOL5lBPz8/ZOmi8fmt6QtCHgJCTljAM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=zOHqou1mlWgZ0wCa/TxnX4ObsQH6qpM6Ra3PCRG851D0e4+oSvic/0+teJM6EpBH+ F3RN+jcLWMsfYqLy9HEvN0CRGzyT+feHbkmE+qnhG1pIbylmGNc+f+JODcN+fi3w5U bWXb7yH8KNMpxssT5HwtVmoRLu/QxEUfno4137Sk= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410104617.0e49b7a8@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 13:14:13 -0700 To: Stephen Farrell , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir From: SM In-Reply-To: <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:14:54 -0000 Hi Stephen, At 10:19 10-04-2016, Stephen Farrell wrote: >I suspect that the physical size of the US also means that some >participants from the US are less used to crossing borders than >e.g. those from smaller countries. Though I'm not sure how that >affects this specific situation. Yes. >Sorry, I think you're wrong there. I do recall such issues being >raised by US and non-US participants. Ok. >I don't think that's fair, but I've not counted. Did you do such >a count? While our US participants may be the best of us when it >comes to complaining they are IMO by no means alone:-) I complain sometimes. :-) I did not do a count of the participants commenting about those issues. I'll attempt an unscientific count of http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg97604.html Asia 3 Europe 20 North America 25 South America 0 There is a similar pattern in most written discussions with participants from the United States in the lead. I could rationalize this by using cultural differences as an explanation. >Personally, I don't believe that there is any need for us to >establish IETF consensus on every possible venue selection criterion. The following is from 2004 ( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg30826.html ): "I think the venue selection process is somehow obscure and not democratic". >What I think needs to happen is that the IAOC need to decide that >information they process or create will be openly available as the >default, while also identifying the specific kinds of information >that they do need to keep confidential (e.g. hotel contract details). > >I think that is how we avoid future situations like this one and how >we could get a sense, well ahead of time, as to the issues that affect >different venues for f2f meetings. I'll pick something from the above: get a sense well ahead of time of the possible issues. >I also think that is a 180-degree change - currently ISTM that the >IAOC operate in default-secret mode, whereas they ought swap around to >be default-public, with identified exceptions. I think if we focus our >energies on getting that change (and checking it's carried out) then I >hope that means we won't need to try and probably fail to reach IETF >consensus on some of these trickier issues. During the MTGVENUE BoF there was a comment about transparency in the IAOC. That issue has been simmering since a long time and there hasn't been any significant discussion about it. The initial response by IAOC members to the concern was an embarrassment. The concern was raised by a person who is a member of the IAB. Should that have happened when the IAB already has two members on the IAOC? Stepping back a little, and going off-topic, the issue of a few years ago was diversity in the IESG. The current issue is diversity in the IAOC. It highlights a cultural insensitivity within the IETF. Regards, -sm From nobody Sun Apr 10 14:01:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F1DF12B03B for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:01:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=eJKDhk3G; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=u0884e8T Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mkT-E_f1F-9u for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6230A12B038 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3AL0btN023625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:00:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1460322045; x=1460408445; bh=QViSgnMScO6IAZJgzwzaVbwdUNnkajjny86A4IjEqiM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=eJKDhk3GmdV5Sm9le91Pae6vcQDAcI+GwUiIwPf57eEiNfC8eSmj/jmucg9hY8vSL cfzmXomt77Cag4O3R6ipt0UUC8hm7bG2GTszXxr1+q5MAHAIA2U9h6xtfp61sFHuIr og+WqKT1lhIIlzYlqW/jpdLoMPDTvWEqJDb0wtUo= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1460322045; x=1460408445; i=@resistor.net; bh=QViSgnMScO6IAZJgzwzaVbwdUNnkajjny86A4IjEqiM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=u0884e8Thd2Lck5Natk/5YZrzAcRWmyGp/7/J2vK5Eu35lwT3Ei2QlD4AlFMDp74S KUiSwtbqeYnxlPdFMF8rmL82wWQM80eQ41D5FRTfoTl5GWjzBqgG5d9HNUQagKGs3U B16HpHxmltUsyj+SIUw1hc90E2uKXQ1wjBOKYVBw= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410131603.0e1cf078@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 13:59:40 -0700 To: Stephen Farrell , dcrocker@bbiw.net From: SM In-Reply-To: <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com Subject: [Diversity] On-going handling of such issues (was: Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 21:01:05 -0000 Hi Stephen, Dave, At 12:49 10-04-2016, Dave Crocker wrote: >Actually, we're not. There is a tendency to believe that diversity >issues are solved by better awareness, or better documentation, or >more diligent attention, or by enforcing >well-intentioned-but-artificial membership quotas on >committees. None of those suffice for complex and emotional social >concerns, of the sort we are currently seeing. > >So discussion about the best ways to ensure on-going handling of >such issues is entirely relevant. [snip] >Stephen, that's an example of magical thinking about transparency. >Sounds good but isn't practical for most administrative work or most >administrative environments. In ignores costs and inefficiencies >and imposes unrealistic burdens on the folk doing the work. (By the >way, it also imposes unrealistic burdens on the community, who have >to pay very close attention, all the time, to all this new detail >being made available...) > >Further, you are calling for massive operational changes, with only >modest direct relationship to the problem at hand. By contrast, the >suggestion I'm advocating is simple, cheap, safe, and effective for >exactly the kind of issue at hand. There is indeed a high cost for handling complex social concerns. Does transparency help? I believe so as everyone can judge for himself/herself whether the decision taken favored a group of persons or whether the concerns of a minority group were ignored during the decision-making. Another way is to have representivity where there are quotas for each group. Either way, it is a substantive change. Regards, -sm From nobody Sun Apr 10 14:05:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7FF12D124 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:05:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uB2KDSsv2VHV for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4293C12D121 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-10-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.10.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3AL51EA008630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:05:02 -0700 References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410131603.0e1cf078@resistor.net> To: SM , Stephen Farrell , dcrocker@bbiw.net From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <570ABFF8.5070608@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:04:56 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410131603.0e1cf078@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com Subject: Re: [Diversity] On-going handling of such issues X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 21:05:08 -0000 On 4/10/2016 1:59 PM, SM wrote: > There is indeed a high cost for handling complex social concerns. Does > transparency help? I believe so as everyone can judge for > himself/herself whether the decision taken favored a group of persons or > whether the concerns of a minority group were ignored during the > decision-making. Another way is to have representivity where there are > quotas for each group. Either way, it is a substantive change. SM, Hi. Again, the specific application of 'transparency' is extremely important, if the operation is to be practical and the results useful. The same applies to enforced diversity. Some transparency is easy and useful. Quite a bit is neither, but it makes up for it by also crippling the operation... And enforced diversity for small groups is usually not practical. It winds up creating representation for a tiny number of special interests and continues to ignore many others. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Apr 10 14:51:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24E112D167 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:51:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GzMUR2h5nJsU for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D753A12D164 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 14:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B5CBDF9; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 22:51:10 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AeTU8GgeQkBp; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 22:51:08 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.49.100] (unknown [86.46.23.241]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 66932BDCF; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 22:51:06 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1460325068; bh=EIkI7Bl/FaM8awr8C4lfi+DoYTRsVB4Bd+ciu7BnEL8=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=MlndfGBwY7zdrgwXlXqcZE6c/u3SpnmyxiPDjI0FJC4rCQdMffNB04dRLRWbLs168 58fJqtwghirAgI8RGQhWRKK4xSKhtqCfYb2xXalwB7T5msrXRGdSyylxqUvMnEvhBl L8yObmKVZ2eVXKrXeB8xN0vic7W7pUlCot1NQJ54= To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> <570AAE2E.9060000@dcrocker.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <570ACAC9.5070008@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 22:51:05 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570AAE2E.9060000@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms020005000908040602000100" Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 21:51:14 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020005000908040602000100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, I think you and I just disagree about the requirement for the IAOC (not just f2f arrangements folks) to reform itself or be reformed. That, or else I'm just not explaining myself at all well, presumably leading you to your clearly dismissive reference to magical thinking. In contrast, I think the current fiasco is just one in an ongoing sequence of mostly minor screw-ups by well meaning folks, all or almost all of which would likely have been easier to handle or less likely to happen if the IAOC and it's subcommittees made much better use of what is the IETF's standard modus operandi: open-ness. And before you again mis-characterise me as implying that every detail of every hotel contract be open, that is clearly not what I am proposing. If you take that to be my proposal either the writer or the reader or both are at significant fault. S. On 10/04/16 20:49, Dave Crocker wrote: > Stephen, >=20 >=20 >> (We're maybe wandering from the direct relevance to this list, >> but I think many of the right people are subscribed to most of >> the possible lists so let's continue...) >=20 > Actually, we're not. There is a tendency to believe that diversity > issues are solved by better awareness, or better documentation, or more= > diligent attention, or by enforcing well-intentioned-but-artificial > membership quotas on committees. None of those suffice for complex and= > emotional social concerns, of the sort we are currently seeing. >=20 > So discussion about the best ways to ensure on-going handling of such > issues is entirely relevant. >=20 >=20 >>> The IAOC (and the Meetings Committee that I participate in) means wel= l >>> and attempts to be diligent, but it simply is not certain (or IMO, >>> likely) to adequately assess these kinds of community concerns well >>> enough. Last week demonstrated that. >> >> I do agree, both that folks are well meaning and that we're >> almost certainly going to have future surprises and issues >> to tackle no matter what we do. >=20 > What I am advocating -- and I'm not the one who put the idea forward --= > /does/ ensure no further surprises about basic venue legal, > environmental, political or social acceptability. >=20 >=20 >> But since I apparently was not clear enough before, here's another >> attempt to say what, in addition to handling IETF-100 specifics, >> I think the IAOC needs to do now: >> >> - Decide to, and announce, that the default position is to be open >> with all data, email etc. That should happen now. (Or should have >> happened already perhaps.) >> >> - Publicly describe the specific kinds of information that are not >> handled according to the default-open policy. >=20 > Stephen, that's an example of magical thinking about transparency. > Sounds good but isn't practical for most administrative work or most > administrative environments. In ignores costs and inefficiencies and > imposes unrealistic burdens on the folk doing the work. (By the way, i= t > also imposes unrealistic burdens on the community, who have to pay very= > close attention, all the time, to all this new detail being made > available...) >=20 > Further, you are calling for massive operational changes, with only > modest direct relationship to the problem at hand. By contrast, the > suggestion I'm advocating is simple, cheap, safe, and effective for > exactly the kind of issue at hand. >=20 >=20 >> Lastly, having seen the incremental increases in open-ness that the >> IESG has made in the last 5 years, and that not one of those has had >> a bad effect that I can recall, despite some fears each time we opened= >> up more, I think that while some IAOC folks might understandably >> be a bit afraid of a default-open policy, I reckon doing so is likely >> to just work, if done well. >=20 > I'm in favor of a great deal of openness. And I concur that the IESG > steps have been a Good Thing. But IMO venue administrative work is > quite different. >=20 > At the least, the politics of turning down a venue and/or a host > involves far more delicacy than is possible with a fishbowl operational= > model. >=20 > d/ >=20 --------------ms020005000908040602000100 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra 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diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D2112D189 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:10:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=YpvrQKW1; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=hl1qBehE Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tMbxIROYjvkQ for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5518712D104 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3AM4NAK021933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:04:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1460325872; x=1460412272; bh=Km7F112sHAV8oiJwzucaHzGeMtt0Ap9A/8wgtb6i/58=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=YpvrQKW1mJHgEPRzPSY9BRw4Sdfp9kLrRUu8PyuPpRjPphxAjgY1DHhsJqgNSJnjw YPsS66O0vhgcK+n9JZ4/JtoBrcW6x/Q3O3LSh+Tam4CkdI/KMLgTfnviY3cQRyTpEP rUMUBrTmMTPZm9bISyaKQNM+ioMYDF4dYyp1lHHo= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1460325872; x=1460412272; i=@resistor.net; bh=Km7F112sHAV8oiJwzucaHzGeMtt0Ap9A/8wgtb6i/58=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=hl1qBehEWaUBS1dle43dKx11i9aDOQENqz7XOQal+wyaWJuZ4Bqe1696UkIHa4vk6 BsTGL6SztDuUS/1FQLVx/uFzNlFrT1Gq1dTmtfcWZTXGjZwngDnNx2VIPeGGqnZiBY xldfEv6/cHvGDeKnOp+Sy3iFNKbk+NUUD29sYKGw= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410141359.1089b720@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:04:28 -0700 To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, diversity@ietf.org From: SM In-Reply-To: <570ABFF8.5070608@dcrocker.net> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410131603.0e1cf078@resistor.net> <570ABFF8.5070608@dcrocker.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: Andrew Allen , Stephen Farrell , Yoav Nir , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com Subject: Re: [Diversity] On-going handling of such issues X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 22:10:07 -0000 Hi Dave, At 14:04 10-04-2016, Dave Crocker wrote: >Again, the specific application of 'transparency' is extremely >important, if the operation is to be practical and the results useful. > >The same applies to enforced diversity. > >Some transparency is easy and useful. Quite a bit is neither, but >it makes up for it by also crippling the operation... > >And enforced diversity for small groups is usually not practical. It >winds up creating representation for a tiny number of special >interests and continues to ignore many others. As it is now, I have to take the word of the members of the IAOC that they are doing a terrific job and that nothing should be changed as the operation is practical and the results useful. I don't see any accountability in that. The IETF will end up with enforced diversity if it does nothing. Regards, -sm From nobody Sun Apr 10 15:32:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A1812D0E2 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:32:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xDiwzfq-X-y1 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A831A12D0AC for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 15:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6929BE25; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:32:29 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rqVQ3oKHnWBA; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:32:25 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.49.100] (unknown [86.46.23.241]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01B44BDF9; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:32:24 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1460327545; bh=nBNI+GZCnntAR2AV+avbCkb6Cm74ZG7OaUU+aYDRbYQ=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ETAkrOdLa73JbeE4rhhBwYBjmzOSKo4ZFvxzGj/LMDyJIRFxrtZt3RMRik/CxXzZK p2YsdF8rD1JTcfvjqB/ln3M8GE8mpSlVfuB/MmZGsIiu5qKuO1cVIk6dlSc3nIIUOj ke0R6KxRJJLXQsP6FoieJPhlvqAK7zos7E56Yt+A= To: SM , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410104617.0e49b7a8@resistor.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <570AD478.4040606@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:32:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410104617.0e49b7a8@resistor.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms080003030102010403020007" Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 22:32:33 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080003030102010403020007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 10/04/16 21:14, SM wrote: >=20 > I complain sometimes. :-) =20 Heh - maybe if we include skillful obliqueness and "I'm not quite sure if this is a complaint or not" as a category you'd win a category prize:-) > I did not do a count of the participants > commenting about those issues. I'll attempt an unscientific count of > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg97604.html >=20 > Asia 3 > Europe 20 > North America 25 > South America 0 Those numbers don't convince me that IETF complaining is a US-specific thing, for various reasons, including the date-range, topics in-play, and lack of counts per thread to name just a few. There may be such a case to be made, but so far we don't have good evidence for it I think. I'm also not convinced that arguing such a case is really productive. I think if we want to name a subset of IETF participants as being more or less culpable for some bad thing, then we really should base that on better numbers, if those actually exist. Or else, we shouldn't make the claim, which I think is usually better. Cheers, S. PS: As in many things, the US population includes sets of people who embody both the best and the worst on these topics - I reckon that's mainly characteristic of their state being the 20th century's behemoth and has not much deeper significance. --------------ms080003030102010403020007 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra 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+0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: Stephen Farrell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , SM , Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir , Nalini Elkins Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:35:04 -0000 On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi SM, > > On 10/04/16 17:55, SM wrote: >> Hi Nalini, >> At 06:08 10-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >>> Guys, believe me, I am not for discrimination in any form whatsoever >>> and of course, it is wonderful if IETFers want to bring their family >>> with them to locations but isn't it more important for the IETFer >>> themselves to attend and to not be harassed? Does IETF need to plan >>> for not just attendees but attendee's families? >> >> I'll skip the question. >> >>> A lot of us have never said anything but people might want to read the >>> section that is in Wikipedia on "White Privilege". >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege >>> >>> This might help put a different perspective on this discussion. >>> >>> I know at least one participant at IETF95 who was searched multiple >>> times at the same airport because his skin was brown and we suspect >>> that he was profiled. You may look at compilations which have rank >>> countries by racist attitudes and in some, the United States comes in >>> first. >>> >>> But, you do not hear us talking about this or even complaining or >>> suggesting that we are getting an unfair deal. We just work harder >>> and try to support each other. >> >> The pie chart of IETF 95 attendees shows that approximately 35% of the >> attendees were from the United States. It's striking that the attendees >> who raised issues about IETF meeting venues are usually from the United >> States. I guess that IETF attendees from the United States are quite >> vocal about unfair deals. > > I think that's fair. > > I suspect that the physical size of the US also means that some > participants from the US are less used to crossing borders than > e.g. those from smaller countries. Though I'm not sure how that > affects this specific situation. I think India and China are quite big too both in terms of area and significantly bigger in terms of people. However we do not see participants from these countries complaining incessantly about minor infractions and (sadly) sometimes even significant discrimination. I think participating in the IETF and improving the Intenet is a privilege a lot of IETF participants (especially from the US) take for granted. If the IETF is serious about being more inclusive, I would suggest just one problem to solve which affect a lot of participants from non-US/European countries and that is visa. The IETF has done a very lousy job of helping participants get visa (such as advisories or getting Visa letters). There is a lot of lip service paid to this but no action on the ground. I think the recent meeting is a good example of this mess. >>> And, this kind of thing - getting hassled, ignored in restaurants, >>> possibly physically assaulted if we are in the wrong area, etc.etc. is >>> for IETF participants. Not, IETFer's bringing their families - which >>> I will add is not an option for many in the developing world because >>> it is far too expensive. It is hard enough for the IETFer himself / >>> herself to attend - much less bring their family. >> >> I don't recall reading a lot of complaints about Hawaii being an exotic >> location or being too far. > > Sorry, I think you're wrong there. I do recall such issues being > raised by US and non-US participants. >> There are usually complaints when an IETF >> meeting is held outside Northern America. Do people outside the United >> States complain about discrimination, being ignored, etc.? A quick look >> at ietf@ietf.org does not show a significant volume of issues from the 65%. > > I don't think that's fair, but I've not counted. Did you do such > a count? While our US participants may be the best of us when it > comes to complaining they are IMO by no means alone:-) I would love to see this argument backed by data. I am fairly sure the list is quite skewed. >> The following is from Paypal: >> https://www.paypal.com/stories/us/paypal-withdraws-plan-for-charlotte-expansion >> Will the IETF adopt a similar position about Singapore? >> >>> Let's try to work with each other and support each other to bring the >>> collaborative attitudes and openness that underlie the Internet and >>> the openness of the IETF to the developing world. I think that we are >>> agents of change just as the Internet is an agent of change. >>> Unfortunately, sometimes, there are costs to be borne for this. We >>> need to look at the greater good. >> >> How can that greater good be determined? Would it be based on IETF >> Consensus? Would it be left to the discretion of the IASA as that body >> has been given the responsibility for administrative issues? Would it >> be left to the IETF Chair given that he has been chosen by Eligible Voters? > > Personally, I don't believe that there is any need for us to > establish IETF consensus on every possible venue selection criterion. > > What I think needs to happen is that the IAOC need to decide that > information they process or create will be openly available as the > default, while also identifying the specific kinds of information > that they do need to keep confidential (e.g. hotel contract details). > > I think that is how we avoid future situations like this one and how > we could get a sense, well ahead of time, as to the issues that affect > different venues for f2f meetings. > > I also think that is a 180-degree change - currently ISTM that the > IAOC operate in default-secret mode, whereas they ought swap around to > be default-public, with identified exceptions. I think if we focus our > energies on getting that change (and checking it's carried out) then I > hope that means we won't need to try and probably fail to reach IETF > consensus on some of these trickier issues. A said and done, there is a lot more scope for the IAOC to be transparent. The IAOC does a tough job but it does not behoove well for the IETF and IAOC to be so secretive for possible venues. If nothing else, a possible list of venues under consideration would definitely be a good start and would help to avoid the fiasco we saw with Singapore. I think the community can help the IAOC in such issues and avoid it being blind-sided. I think "Trust us we are doing the right thing" argument has run it's course. Thanks Vinayak From nobody Sun Apr 10 16:40:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83AD12D719 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:40:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7jBhCLPuuC5Z for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22e.google.com (mail-wm0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3940312D1B1 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 191so67139813wmq.0 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:40:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=IsACpxx9lVvpn/PA+DZi46hO8XdC1iohOtj2E9Kvysg=; b=jD8UoGwMDS5kbA8uYyDyl2bD2QTSHpnCF3heyIClCZtJI8Ocjv1XlWKpz+ho3wATWK PIFTIqDUX703Db0aSD5gi/Q24TfF/n9sz7Ul93tUU7ruMvak9M85MESxJvtESBUfJaES ocHoJUXAfIYj+NaLU4d0nP44NV8yV3/HvU75T+wqQtVOC/EhEJ0oq/dWk/tV5j7ciZLz E1jyY66FgcKjJnkJ6KVfI24vgy8LQGbkFKp1fcyIJAPtQJLVSmqNzc/A84NzFcCkDg3T xODcXLL6luRMgprBjDGPsTZ4AQpIAU09gWvMD9M/qUeXd9KDDPNDgqdU/eAEORWad3us 5aGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=IsACpxx9lVvpn/PA+DZi46hO8XdC1iohOtj2E9Kvysg=; b=O/QsfJiuc4Y9wE19T/dv1ReLJ9mvgvGQEsKSHuNzbOQuGkQM4t51U0SztgvNt5ezxp u75u3GOG/7Vj16ABJwnf4cTGz3NRQlvY9ZkJUPnO3HV4S5sv/q2ppUgojUq6b0bYl05W Dbx1erS77vCCCGq0ruopYxPlBw/oRvxYd0+n7q9DzqFQ4Ai3LCXCNM29sCC6hJ/DFutl 6WBfHaF8KVpqcXHlmDqFNF5VeYoD07MRgMH1iiq5stSY3nNEX0dYo2CFFHFzmmXtIZWo +8WLnmczcyF4X9cVy80GSiQN3FM5/qxl4t6dfw7J4VJMnqbD4c1ALg74raIK2dTPahve v7/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKLotm2wRhuXHNxRl9srF1CB+mBbo7LkPGlW9Ai5dENooKqTGAI9NIKT+nT21MC+hHg3VFzAB8R4jCPYg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.192.106 with SMTP id hf10mr19689541wjc.134.1460331640660; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.133.99 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:40:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 05:10:40 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Andrew Allen , Nalini Elkins , Yoav Nir , "diversity@ietf.org" , SM , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:40:44 -0000 On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 11:27 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 4/10/2016 10:19 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> What I think needs to happen is that the IAOC need to decide that >> information they process or create will be openly available as the >> default, while also identifying the specific kinds of information >> that they do need to keep confidential (e.g. hotel contract details). > That model can and does work for criteria subject to relatively objective > and relatively consistent analysis. > > On matters of political, social and environment concern, the community's > concerns and reactions are significantly less predictable. > > The IAOC (and the Meetings Committee that I participate in) means well and > attempts to be diligent, but it simply is not certain (or IMO, likely) to > adequately assess these kinds of community concerns well enough. Last week > demonstrated that. +100 > 'Transparency' is not a magical incantation. The specifics of its nature > and timing determine its efficacy. In this case, merely publishing > 'criteria' leaves an entire analysis process to be unpredictable; and having > everyone inspect that process in real-time -- this is called a fishbowl) is > not practical. Having them inspect it post hoc is, at best, inefficient. > > My own view is that the only way to make sure that a venue is acceptable to > the community is to publish a list of candidate venues, as early as > possible, and let the community debate any concerns it might have. +100 > We already have a repertoire of acceptable venues. IMO, we therefore can > afford to be quite cavalier about rejecting new venues. I am not so sure about being cavalier about rejecting new venues. Especially since the US internet population is now dwarfed by other countries and regions like LATAM, China and India. The meeting venues should reflect that atleast fairly (if not in representative fashion). Thanks Vinayak From nobody Sun Apr 10 16:56:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6485912D6FE for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:55:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0YqIi1Wf9FEs for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1499612D6E5 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 191so67303206wmq.0 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:55:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=QOhlTdju7F+s9IQK3yl0cI6DCzHwllNpuAks4L0UiFQ=; b=P3esX04e20fEqFxvGswwXCHOEW6hCjkGgtcTuvZP6OHsxebtHreRqaKQ51i5iWidFn 42U4Lwi7KdLhcP0rc+m19iIDttkHgAxeQiKMrmYAZFo44X1XUqg4C1IpeJMRyUiIx6mv nKPIfJQr3V9eMa9TpDmaTIIBRPPoznwWbumwTcqcHq0ECITV2GFzi+Z6RufnEhjJd7Gc Q+ST8Q3cn/UBtbXsfYtUc5lr0HwdTQ+OKjeZICO+3jUaxxvkVrHWAbGAVhn2IHAmUF2G fYBH8PIWQ3YG7fnly7JNWdAlphxxeTXhWhSxqeF1ASF/NBcC5ylAIS2/3u92vVlVfoqQ edLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=QOhlTdju7F+s9IQK3yl0cI6DCzHwllNpuAks4L0UiFQ=; b=PjzvZv3EiICUepUIkCJ44YDLa2JSqQKwG26sFKgxE8AeusR1XHdvHoK9EbWy0gf3++ aAEthY/TkMZrupz2lZJ3QwGIrxjWpQZhnVGkQy9jqR2nL7rEN9tSdQs8wiDzV8LkWpC/ qXthqs4nfghnSLSrl9tdGkcogV2y8m3N3AAnwq3QQiYiQmZDXHjJOFRH2rwj/u9SeBkw eQUx0UNGr+dHV9LDpbLYOKI0IQjRrBegRfqB5qPTx5TGsj2JCJZurjimgPcx50gzYIr6 zn0EyHj/VCf6y983s0yJA6bBrW2HO+O34fpUy2OaW4Q7KrEifJG1b8cPepm8lDhKvOks Y9Zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKnuFG0k4vsZDAP9fRHDBVqNY6dpIVaT3qsfysGaFczRj1XGH7xHbV1tBFO8/Zveo7R98oNSGXdv+b4sQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.78.83 with SMTP id z19mr20294547wjw.5.1460332555616; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.133.99 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:55:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410104617.0e49b7a8@resistor.net> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410104617.0e49b7a8@resistor.net> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 05:25:55 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: SM , Fernando Gont Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Andrew Allen , Nalini Elkins , Yoav Nir , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:55:59 -0000 On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 1:44 AM, SM wrote: > During the MTGVENUE BoF there was a comment about transparency in the IAOC. > That issue has been simmering since a long time and there hasn't been any > significant discussion about it. The initial response by IAOC members to > the concern was an embarrassment. The concern was raised by a person who is > a member of the IAB. Should that have happened when the IAB already has two > members on the IAOC? > > Stepping back a little, and going off-topic, the issue of a few years ago > was diversity in the IESG. The current issue is diversity in the IAOC. It > highlights a cultural insensitivity within the IETF. +100 I have said this elsewhere on this thread but visa issues which affect a lot of participants from non-US/Non-EU countries do not make it on the radar. Probably because participants from these countries do not complain loudly enough. I am guilty of this too but we just accept it as part of the package. So we have lots of people complaining vainly about AC temperature in Hotels but not issues which actually prevent people from coming to the IETF. Please talk to some of the ISOC fellows and participants from other countries from Asia, LATAM and Africa about the amount of documentation needed for applying for visa and/or the hurdles they face to receive funding. cc-ing Fernando on this thread from LATAM (Argentina) who has also raised these concerns about funding. I find it laughable and disingenuous that people from the developed world talk about the cost of visiting different countries and time taken to travel but at the same time ask "Where is the participation from these developing countries ? We should go to countries from where there is a lot of participation" -- Vinayak From nobody Sun Apr 10 17:31:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D4112D9D6 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 17:31:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7qbT5t-VGQ2z for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 17:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm22-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm22-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C31E12D920 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 17:31:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1460334685; bh=iXA1s1p3FZiw2O+j5H72OpRJn79YZnpOgLGwHPwcuZc=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=q5ICcv+uQCJHdHoOYIwKLXqr+8yqtjlS5WWt8EQ/nkhYJlEwbJ2OElW4IUfThrHMSE9A/K4k2QVtW/ATRluZh8DMp/o5VIeFg7nM1xCd5KX54UMylFgCmG+hwpCA8YGn9X6xbIzaKUZo0jHrMaNLjVr0jMH/oi/rGe/U/pmHlVHwHoCNY1jAriZJ37MkKIigNGt648eP1NpDJx3Ag+l0ClgPfAsKrsPBpK64sGwz3Ttzhd+/0tvLmxU4lTvrNT9BvJ084hWNX3t8V30m6jl2WbiKi7ltGpjgIcvswjTZCtL09IVWytcIRs0uuw8Y+Dv6YltbAC0cUkrZWdRXPCkOBA== Received: from [98.138.100.114] by nm22.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Apr 2016 00:31:25 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.165] by tm105.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Apr 2016 00:31:25 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1066.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Apr 2016 00:31:25 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 803674.94337.bm@omp1066.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: B3h_hJYVM1lg9dCDXzNbkCxKcb3hHwLpQVc4lJ.odASy8xR7LlAn_iZyS6rXJzQ BQpjEX2PNLpYUJK5dXkKgMkuBL2.PcQWyDQXc3JgWQ_QB8Ew0QqNCpQvR5hpH9S8..2R6kg_QDjC 2387d8rsC.tRb5N6YTtEu6oQcJQc..yW8qt4H8gzCmvL9ZYP4iYaXwkbTo1QLpBV1O4Mukd.gzQr dpTehmvaQl5U60aNcaq1iM5XId9R1WmcLmWfLyPK5rBBaWmgHHNDvC4mBrf09p9wy3RG7jYSlcyT UjvIoRzs4wqf.tZgXXHpga3.RTfp_vs2ArukfRfu997rpn2vkj0FpdfmEPGswOTl7fP.h4E0ZkQs 4.rzb9K2q7Gm2Tp_K1cwTX2d7aPXRFNBIK.8A_4A0dbD3mSXe98h9E795_AtFetbT8Gt04HtXAyZ gPRw6EZDXAuZcJZ2usmBJdNnWWvcfCVcEz8TiGPHRHB8JeYUbLetShYCFz5D4J.GeVvDSooa8eEU tQsne0ri7hOoEHmQ0V0ue88Q- Received: by 98.138.105.203; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:31:25 +0000 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:30:42 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Vinayak Hegde , SM , Fernando Gont Message-ID: <704605888.359174.1460334642318.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 00:31:28 -0000 > > Stepping back a little, and going off-topic, the issue of a few years ago > was diversity in the IESG. The current issue is diversity in the IAOC. It > highlights a cultural insensitivity within the IETF. +100 Guys, I want to put together some thoughts (for whatever they are worth) about what IMHO is really going on. The venue issue is the canary in the coal mine that is highlighting some fundamental transitions that are taking place in the world. The IETF is not immune from the changes that it itself has helped to create: that is the Internet and the power shifts that are taking place as a result. Now, again IMHO, we can do this the hard way (try to really understand the problem, really listen to each viewpoint & try to understand each other's reality) or we can do it the harder way (ignore the fundamental problem, focus on details, and be non-transparent). Naturally, once the "harder" way does not work, we will be back to the first. When I was in my mid-twenties, I spent two of the happiest years of my life as a Peace Corps volunteer living at the edge of the bush in West Africa under a military dictatorship, with no free speech, no running water, and intermittent electricity. The reason the time was happy was because of the generosity, warmth and kindness of the people who welcomed a stranger into their lives. The reality of many parts of the world is very unfamiliar to people in the western world, and seems even "wrong". IMHO, this is a part of what we are seeing with the whole "Singapore" issue. People at the IETF have talked about wanting "diversity" for quite a while. Well, it is coming quickly. The reality of it demands changes and flexibility from all. I feel that the IETF with its tradition of transparency and collaboration is uniquely equipped to handle this challenge. If it can't work here, it can't work anywhere. And, I think it can work at the IETF. But the "how" may require some innovation in how we go about this. I will write my thoughts up (again, if they can be of any help to the community). But, I just got home & I am brain dead & exhausted. So, after wrapping up a few other email thread, I am going on radio silence for a week or so. Nalini From nobody Sun Apr 10 18:09:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDAD12DC0E for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:09:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SVbliCR_WM8u for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D5AA12DC0D for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-10-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.10.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3B18pKT020728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:08:54 -0700 References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> To: Vinayak Hegde , Dave Crocker From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <570AF91D.4080706@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:08:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: Andrew Allen , Nalini Elkins , Yoav Nir , "diversity@ietf.org" , SM , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 01:09:04 -0000 On 4/10/2016 4:40 PM, Vinayak Hegde wrote: >> We already have a repertoire of acceptable venues. IMO, we therefore can >> >afford to be quite cavalier about rejecting new venues. > I am not so sure about being cavalier about rejecting new venues. Especially > since the US internet population is now dwarfed by other countries and > regions like > LATAM, China and India. The meeting venues should reflect that atleast fairly > (if not in representative fashion). Point taken. I was, perhaps, being a bit too cavalier about our being cavalier... I'll suggest a refinement: For the regions that we've been visiting regularly over the years, we already have a repertoire of acceptable venues. For these, we can readily reject a new venue, if there is significant community objection to going there. (That's what I /meant/ about being cavalier.) When the goal is to visit a new region and/or make a new region part of the regular circuit, choices are more complicated and need to be made more cautiously. FWIW, I think that early disclosure of candidate cities is useful in both cases. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Apr 10 19:30:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF9712D7F9 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 19:30:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=tKPKOdRC; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=qnJ+cke8 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nRxRviyrNV5x for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 19:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6BE12E059 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 19:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3B2TtPO029051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 19:29:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1460341802; x=1460428202; bh=gevfFJFO2FFtAVjb+sxYpaTDk5L80em4KYs5dyopBJk=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=tKPKOdRC5+XAAKxOwgm8pVslAIZlDUo4X09rjEc4CsR8InN5nq1bSmKsvoRdOsd+B tAYaIq9F0aYA16cPeSyZWKTXwesbOzKuuCXLnSfoMvHd5gTYLUsvLVc63p9gI2YQ9W P9f68HXxzIWjPnxt4MmPEIEdM7RrlOvy3aeLH2wk= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1460341802; x=1460428202; i=@resistor.net; bh=gevfFJFO2FFtAVjb+sxYpaTDk5L80em4KYs5dyopBJk=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=qnJ+cke88FNPv9sAFS6weH4E8+QzdGfcs4qvg1y5yJ0rImmTCxjBNrQ9zxzdGvFnD nC+MMna13xVIvVb0yID8YQY8kcpvfmW2JdoC1Wnzi0JAkN6i0Y93lbJuNHS1F7IhYy b6+ngxg9469QkkXGDIwTXbviUdIDhuGp+LEbrXgE= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410181307.0e06c5f0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 18:58:39 -0700 To: Stephen Farrell , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir From: SM In-Reply-To: <570AD478.4040606@cs.tcd.ie> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410104617.0e49b7a8@resistor.net> <570AD478.4040606@cs.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 02:30:16 -0000 Hi Stephen, At 15:32 10-04-2016, Stephen Farrell wrote: >Heh - maybe if we include skillful obliqueness and "I'm not quite sure >if this is a complaint or not" as a category you'd win a category >prize:-) Ok. :-) >Those numbers don't convince me that IETF complaining is a US-specific >thing, for various reasons, including the date-range, topics in-play, >and lack of counts per thread to name just a few. There may be such a >case to be made, but so far we don't have good evidence for it I think. I agree that the dataset is not a good example. Regards, -sm From nobody Sun Apr 10 20:11:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027B512DA67 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8HHiBNUMUZ-X for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7845A12D9C2 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-10-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.10.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3B3BS9X022945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:11:28 -0700 References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> <570AAE2E.9060000@dcrocker.net> <570ACAC9.5070008@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell , dcrocker@bbiw.net, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <570B15DA.4010302@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:11:22 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570ACAC9.5070008@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 03:11:36 -0000 On 4/10/2016 2:51 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Dave, > > I think you and I just disagree about the requirement for the IAOC > (not just f2f arrangements folks) to reform itself or be reformed. There are always folk putting forward that view. Including now, of course. And there are obvious ways to pursue such views, by specifying details and gather community consensus. On the average, problem solving at such a basic level is aided by very clear specification of the problems being solved. Anyhow, perhaps you can achieve a critical mass of community consensus for that. More importantly there is nothing about that effort that needs to be in the critical path of responding directly to the very specific problem that surfaced last week. And putting it into the critical path almost certainly means that responding to that specific problem will be delayed. > That, or else I'm just not explaining myself at all well, presumably > leading you to your clearly dismissive reference to magical thinking. My dismissal of your brief proposal was far more specific than just using that label. Your proposal is of a type that often comes up when decision-making is delegated and anyone in the community is dissatisfied with how things are operating. And I responded rather specifically about the problems with the approach. Fishbowl operation can have its uses, but it also can have severe drawbacks. By way of a small and frankly classic example, yes, having the IESG call be public is quite nice. But the problem is that IESG members still have private conversations. Since the requirement is for the IESG to be open, do we need to prohibit those conversations being private? > In contrast, I think the current fiasco is just one in an ongoing > sequence of mostly minor screw-ups by well meaning folks, all or > almost all of which would likely have been easier to handle or > less likely to happen if the IAOC and it's subcommittees made much > better use of what is the IETF's standard modus operandi: open-ness. Oh. Ok. It would be helpful to see a compendium of these screw-ups, in order to be able to attempt to analyze them. Openness about problems begins by being clear about what they are. > And before you again mis-characterise me as implying that every > detail of every hotel contract be open, that is clearly not what I > am proposing. If you take that to be my proposal either the writer > or the reader or both are at significant fault. Actually I did not think, say, or imply anything like that. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Sun Apr 10 20:21:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C2312E13E for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:21:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T0iX5BkR1K5a for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22d.google.com (mail-wm0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D8E112DD21 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id f198so127750893wme.0 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:21:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=pF+4PE/Wv4Turf2PQv/EO/+/KyglzJ64FhsvTQJoO0E=; b=d8/QuZNAZXeZwswIdooWG78Gd6SaHx9MTneH7N8qMqt8pevRrUKby+n2YAe1OoTT4e 3YJ2NgC/6TWDDTUg8xY66qzmpEw1x+azy7/S2xY1Mz1drMahhq5q9eKnOEOotSCanW2N FH7UYakAZf9O+TF8ik5Z2pYuREdqR09wwZOfS1Sua1R+bN4baG8tnIYGfPmwMfcGdI70 3js57z98oJ0CsxVt2FFp1JP/9muP//ZSyfhUG4q3SL8YPAaXbpUIvU9e0c8R3gr5gko8 8km6MoamIbYD5RFZawFYV28DbxLCMFuOGPA471/FWTZT/GlsgBDMiKIYemR5qm6j3QWR F/6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=pF+4PE/Wv4Turf2PQv/EO/+/KyglzJ64FhsvTQJoO0E=; b=nHuxR1k4UCdcSMV6/I8slpIXs7TT/aOTl7y5xKLICQy9oL6PXocQeBF98quSmTimZJ 63r4OA38KW2gk6bSc8ORT8kvbUa9jOrBDCw4ZaIgMMvi+bRKLUUeJe01T73JJhwz+/zn Hu9LM6UgLsKtNZxEdz34gf5hOctpjuU4YctjwSV/ZotSXkvJ4OM8QClKRLVI18k34qIR AGaPToe3hlMqwrUSjor9PF7Sxyf+3tL8HeQQ3nmLtov7exJUgIHYmwNWFO4yhsxSmzIl b+GPXQaBgtOShJWIJBTwNzNiqN2+iP7TB7HuaNcrGJvRoiev2ViKVAQkCMGE3yzZmtYf fIug== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJIutOjUXg7WT3+rGt2O8qmS2Z6G54wpQBMY5TTA1g976VjEZt3pxbWutSZSuYAdUPK5g6+WWK7iQ+Mgg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.78.83 with SMTP id z19mr20807488wjw.5.1460344862798; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.133.99 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:21:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <570B15DA.4010302@dcrocker.net> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> <570AAE2E.9060000@dcrocker.net> <570ACAC9.5070008@cs.tcd.ie> <570B15DA.4010302@dcrocker.net> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 08:51:02 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Andrew Allen , Nalini Elkins , Yoav Nir , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 03:21:07 -0000 On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 8:41 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: >> In contrast, I think the current fiasco is just one in an ongoing >> sequence of mostly minor screw-ups by well meaning folks, all or >> almost all of which would likely have been easier to handle or >> less likely to happen if the IAOC and it's subcommittees made much >> better use of what is the IETF's standard modus operandi: open-ness. > > > Oh. Ok. It would be helpful to see a compendium of these screw-ups, in > order to be able to attempt to analyze them. Openness about problems begins > by being clear about what they are. +1 on that. Dave to be fair, Fred did share an analysis how past venues did against a set of criteria that we have now in the mtgvenue draft. Thanks Vinayak From nobody Sun Apr 10 20:44:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCB412E269 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:44:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=BCTJezv2; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=a+O+8M3x Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qXrhPQJ38uzo for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADFD612E263 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3B3ijw7011372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:44:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1460346291; x=1460432691; bh=RNFRLVjkJ8cLuOYSRNrLa/bP9Dr5MLzFW4TuXPayJkU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=BCTJezv2vPBW3g5Z1YhSqbnVG4M+YKN5e5zAmnfmvXEIBiKOaudYysMPEF7QKlDbW qzFetHY6m76o8LIzklT/umHykvncl2adX8NSGgN1vDrbyw1zXp4nQMVa30IZ3vlDNz lT2+qXyGes6kdlsIYxtzxXvUoNpMwJsODi1Nn09M= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1460346291; x=1460432691; i=@resistor.net; bh=RNFRLVjkJ8cLuOYSRNrLa/bP9Dr5MLzFW4TuXPayJkU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=a+O+8M3xC16iPMubXOm1KLiq912AqUgXyaneNDf2cbmmIzSpnMbtATvFUSTlx66ae gvCI7hsSYwyaH2GOYU8Ip8LozaNAbWpQtDlhaQUXkrBKLMy8dd7VrTdxvs5wgQNSQk b6pdqlnrdvU1YgFxYPnPiro5Fh9NuNNqAlgOrITQ= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160410193111.0e8baa80@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:29:21 -0700 To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, diversity@ietf.org From: SM In-Reply-To: <704605888.359174.1460334642318.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.c om> References: <704605888.359174.1460334642318.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 03:44:53 -0000 Hi Nalini, At 17:30 10-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >Guys, I want to put together some thoughts (for whatever they are >worth) about what IMHO is really going on. The venue issue is the >canary in the coal mine that is highlighting some fundamental >transitions that are taking place in the world. The IETF is not immune Yes. > from the changes that it itself has helped to create: that is the > Internet and the power shifts that are taking place as a result. That's what is happening. >Now, again IMHO, we can do this the hard way (try to really >understand the problem, really listen to each viewpoint & try to >understand each other's reality) or we can do it the harder way >(ignore the fundamental problem, focus on details, and be non-transparent). > >Naturally, once the "harder" way does not work, we will be back to the first. :-) >The reality of many parts of the world is very unfamiliar to people >in the western world, and seems even "wrong". IMHO, this is a part >of what we are seeing with the whole "Singapore" issue. People at >the IETF have talked about wanting "diversity" for quite a >while. Well, it is coming quickly. The reality of it demands >changes and flexibility from all. The talk started in March 2013. Regards, -sm From nobody Sun Apr 10 23:33:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C8112E69A for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:33:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nRP5k4_J0i8o for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A45212E694 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088C0BDF9; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:33:47 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p2OFSnwSQuhK; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:33:45 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.49.100] (unknown [86.46.23.241]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0316EBDCC; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:33:44 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1460356425; bh=1rwm5p5FxHklrKeH/UmLxW06KnQ5x+2K1WQKA3iwQM4=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Da8FpDBQYgzAkHjZ7s2VRHkpWvwjJ/VYDFHhYMF3UrqSL/5smvIkIkV4/e82eS+0a JeJwMX9iq+7VOw2Q7wEQwCwAgkYP+OY/ZzIpK7r6B7zVWB1DY74+OdvAyolfEHWbgH 2tTujR9FK7D3FX9T2RYWtYMkBUFzBelNhm1FWCRg= To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> <570AAE2E.9060000@dcrocker.net> <570ACAC9.5070008@cs.tcd.ie> <570B15DA.4010302@dcrocker.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <570B4546.7020907@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:33:42 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570B15DA.4010302@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms000909070601040608050008" Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 06:33:53 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000909070601040608050008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/04/16 04:11, Dave Crocker wrote: >=20 > More importantly there is nothing about that effort that needs to be in= > the critical path of responding directly to the very specific problem > that surfaced last week. And putting it into the critical path almost > certainly means that responding to that specific problem will be delaye= d. I agree with that. If the IAOC were taking the path I'd like to see 'em take, they'd just announce that they plan to move to default-open with a list of exceptions to be published/discussed after they're done sorting out the issues related to IETF-100. I would hope that ought not affect their handling of IETF-100. If they even said that they planned to revisit their level of open-ness more generally after sorting out IETF-100, that'd help. At no time did I make any statement about critical paths, but it is fair to ask about that. It seems to be not fair to assert that I was "putting it into the critical path" as you've done, but then again perhaps part of the magical thinking you detected was me thinking things I'd not said:-) S. --------------ms000909070601040608050008 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra 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diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B8A12E711 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:49:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3nfLduOYUNRj for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB99712E710 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 23:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38467BDF9; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:49:02 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8DDXWd283bOX; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:49:00 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.49.100] (unknown [86.46.23.241]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F420DBDCC; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:48:59 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1460357340; bh=07rqaB5shruINnZod4BcdwLO3kB5+mA2JdNsTXxZmDs=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=MwE+uxGUsohnRzKjxqzktOm8UMBw7tAUCJrGnktAElpB02VCuY72BjqXblVWnBA5L 3NrhD1otboVC/PiOs2Az8A8AGDk4q+ubTENJvC9wognweto0Qg6EP9Dykx6OugXhvJ KIpTz/dC9HP+eJuNgALPCr/gRKHcryG2hvRjsgKk= To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Vinayak Hegde , SM , Fernando Gont References: <704605888.359174.1460334642318.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <570B48DB.4040806@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 07:48:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <704605888.359174.1460334642318.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms040403040303080502070601" Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 06:49:05 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040403040303080502070601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/04/16 01:30, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > Now, again IMHO, we can do this the hard way (try to really > understand the problem, really listen to each viewpoint & try to > understand each other's reality) or we can do it the harder way > (ignore the fundamental problem, focus on details, and be > non-transparent). >=20 > Naturally, once the "harder" way does not work, we will be back to > the first. Nicely put and I agree with you. As Dave points out, the IAOC do need to sort out IETF-100 in the meantime, so for now perhaps the immediate best they can do is to recognise they are on the hard and not harder path. 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Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 02:28:21 -0000 --001a114158c2f9455b0530406979 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 This may sound like I'm arguing with you, but I'm agreeing on your meta-issue. On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > > If the IETF is serious about being more inclusive, I would suggest just > one problem to solve which affect a lot of participants from > non-US/European countries and that is visa. > > The IETF has done a very lousy job of helping participants get visa > (such as advisories or getting Visa letters). There is a lot of lip > service paid > to this but no action on the ground. I think the recent meeting is a > good example of this mess. I worked at Huawei from 2005 to 2015 (so, from IETF 63 to IETF 93). I had co-workers who requested US visas for IETF 65 in Dallas (March 2006), and got their visas just in time for IETF 67 in San Diego (November 2006), or in some cases, just in time for IETF 69 in Chicago (July 2007). Chinese folk were hardly the only IETFers affected, but those were the ones I heard about most often, because I worked with a lot of Chinese folk who were affected. Yeah, we had to complain, and complain loudly, but if you check out http://www.ietf.org/meeting/proceedings.html, you'll see a lot more IETF meetings in Canada, especially during the worst times. There would likely have been even more meetings in Canada, except for hosts who wanted IETF meetings in specific places in the US (which is fair, because those specific places were easier for them to support). The Secretariat started opening registration earlier, so people could register and request visa letters earlier. I don't know if it ever happened, but there was talk about letting people register for more than one meeting, so they could request a visa letter for IETF N+1 before IETF N had even happened. When three Nomcom members were delayed getting visas for Honolulu, my understanding is that IETF/ISOC folk were making personal calls to the US State Department to see what could be done to expedite that. I can't judge effectiveness, and I don't know what could have been done, that wasn't done, but what I saw for ten years, was a lot of "action on the ground". Now, if you read what I've said so far, you'll notice that even working for a large multinational that routinely sends dozens of participants who require visas to IETF meetings, and spending five years on the IAB and IESG, I don't know very much about the state of play here. I've got a lot of "I heard"s, and a lot of "I don't know X, but"s. So, if your meta-issue is that more transparency would be awesome, I'd agree wholeheartedly! Because one of the side effects of translucence, or even opacity, is that people work their asses off, and most of us never hear about it, even if we would benefit by knowing about what they had done. And having spent a fair amount of time just last week benefitting from that hard work, I'd love for all of us to know more about what's going on. Spencer --001a114158c2f9455b0530406979 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This may sound like I'm arguing with you, but I'm = agreeing on your meta-issue.

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Vinayak Hegde <vinayakh@gmail= .com> wrote:

If the IETF is serious a= bout being more inclusive, I would suggest just
one problem to solve which affect a lot of participants from
non-US/European countries and that is visa.

The IETF has done a very lousy job of helping participants get visa
(such as advisories or getting Visa letters). There is a lot of lip service= paid
to this but no action on the ground. I think the recent meeting is a
good example of this mess.

I worked at Huaw= ei from 2005 to 2015 (so, from IETF 63 to IETF 93).

I had co-workers who requested US visas for IETF 65 in Dallas (March 2006= ), and got their visas just in time for IETF 67 in San Diego (November 2006= ), or in some cases, just in time for IETF 69 in Chicago (July 2007).
=

Chinese folk were hardly the only IETFers affected, but= those were the ones I heard about most often, because I worked with a lot = of Chinese folk who were affected.

Yeah, we had to= complain, and complain loudly, but if you check out=C2=A0http://www.ietf.org/meeting/proceed= ings.html, you'll see a lot more IETF meetings in Canada, especiall= y during the worst times. There would likely have been even more meetings i= n Canada, except for hosts who wanted IETF meetings in specific places in t= he US (which is fair, because those specific places were easier for them to= support).

The Secretariat started opening registr= ation earlier, so people could register and request visa letters earlier. I= don't know if it ever happened, but there was talk about letting peopl= e register for more than one meeting, so they could request a visa letter f= or IETF N+1 before IETF N had even happened.

When = three Nomcom members were delayed getting visas for Honolulu, my understand= ing is that IETF/ISOC folk were making personal calls to the US State Depar= tment to see what could be done to expedite that.

= I can't judge effectiveness, and I don't know what could have been = done, that wasn't done, but what I saw for ten years, was a lot of &quo= t;action on the ground".

Now, if you read wha= t I've said so far, you'll notice that even working for a large mul= tinational that routinely sends dozens of participants who require visas to= IETF meetings, and spending five years on the IAB and IESG, I don't kn= ow very much about the state of play here. I've got a lot of "I he= ard"s, and a lot of "I don't know X, but"s.
So, if your meta-issue is that more transparency would be awes= ome, I'd agree wholeheartedly! Because one of the side effects of trans= lucence, or even opacity, is that people work their asses off, and most of = us never hear about it, even if we would benefit by knowing about what they= had done.

And having spent a fair amount of time = just last week benefitting from that hard work, I'd love for all of us = to know more about what's going on.

Spencer
--001a114158c2f9455b0530406979-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 01:15:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F2512DD11 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 01:15:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=KCiQKfeo; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=oT8ccCRH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IPr8S8zrcZiY for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 01:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8676912DBF5 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 01:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3C8F6tF008546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Apr 2016 01:15:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1460448912; x=1460535312; bh=5aKeltWpY5GirN+JxF2WUEG6i6kPlzcZA6UpKG3YOVY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=KCiQKfeopmUSMc/jZck8XPo1NQthOOwZnCG999igpJYUEqVJVDqFi1FysTKkl2GK5 h/5In19EB/GiKxT/hQxC/1exph30JIS/QJW3tNjny6Fyo0BtlL1J19rx8NhfgI1UUT cjzCiUh4E4jiLDE0OGV7mnYsrJHvZVr+kFPGw0Bg= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1460448912; x=1460535312; i=@resistor.net; bh=5aKeltWpY5GirN+JxF2WUEG6i6kPlzcZA6UpKG3YOVY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=oT8ccCRHReZk9ElqpNiJ1QnMwX0ePKvQQw34QYK1zfdD6V3ppimxRMOqYGDu09CVr KtaK9/nNmPzH43k7DMHMGe9Kk1oQ1k5Sz21xe1o2WFMn3J3XQQ94jfUbV0mbFrnhiU 6mcS25HLCJeWMs3LDuhXKbmASEFZ1kL2+0R5m1zY= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160411230601.0f95daf0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 01:08:44 -0700 To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Vinayak Hegde , diversity@ietf.org From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 08:15:18 -0000 Hi Spencer, Vinayak, At 19:28 11-04-2016, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >This may sound like I'm arguing with you, but I'm agreeing on your meta-issue. [snip] >Now, if you read what I've said so far, you'll notice that even >working for a large multinational that routinely sends dozens of >participants who require visas to IETF meetings, and spending five >years on the IAB and IESG, I don't know very much about the state of >play here. I've got a lot of "I heard"s, and a lot of "I don't know X, but"s. > >So, if your meta-issue is that more transparency would be awesome, >I'd agree wholeheartedly! Because one of the side effects of >translucence, or even opacity, is that people work their asses off, >and most of us never hear about it, even if we would benefit by >knowing about what they had done. Would I believe a "I heard" or "I don't know X but"? I might do so the first time. As I experience the problem again and again I might wonder whether the "good people" understand the problem I am facing. When I see IETF attendees complaining about a room temperature problem I wonder whether that is what the IETF Community considers as the priority. I read the minutes of proceedings of the last plenary. There was the following comment: "An important venue selection principle is that it is inclusive". I don't see that in the IAOC slides (2013) about venue selection. Do I need to attend an IETF meeting to know about that principle? Is that transparency? Regards, -sm From nobody Tue Apr 12 05:14:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522D812EC10 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3WanjFz0QQ8v for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CE0012EC09 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3CCEccE023018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:14:38 -0700 References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Vinayak Hegde From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <570CE6A7.6050707@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:14:31 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 12 Apr 2016 05:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:14:42 -0000 On 4/11/2016 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > Yeah, we had to complain, and complain loudly, but if you check out > http://www.ietf.org/meeting/proceedings.html, you'll see a lot more IETF > meetings in Canada, especially during the worst times. There would > likely have been even more meetings in Canada, except for hosts who > wanted IETF meetings in specific places in the US (which is fair, > because those specific places were easier for them to support). Is it fair? If we know of a pattern of problems with getting participants to be able to attend, shouldn't that be more important than host convenience (as long as we have the choice of an alternate venue)? The goal of a meeting is to get work done. Choosing a venue that makes it difficult for participants to attends works against that basic goal. > The Secretariat started opening registration earlier, so people could > register and request visa letters earlier. I don't know if it ever > happened, but there was talk about letting people register for more than > one meeting, so they could request a visa letter for IETF N+1 before > IETF N had even happened. > > When three Nomcom members were delayed getting visas for Honolulu, my > understanding is that IETF/ISOC folk were making personal calls to the > US State Department to see what could be done to expedite that. Every country carries some kinds of problems, given the diversity of IETF attendance. But some countries are notably more problematic. Is it reasonable to hold our meetings in places that require this sort of special action? If so, why? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 12 07:34:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BB712DB86 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:34:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p9h6wLncyonr for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x234.google.com (mail-yw0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D05FB12DAD3 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x234.google.com with SMTP id o66so26249666ywc.3 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:34:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=Oyn3sZmiPjF/TngT9RzHbuwhX8ZRUSN7M3KfoAL0mso=; b=BGtwbGE7Zege5cK0KtVbXbwRIgx3f6fgtPuA3oi7OBSQiR3Q2NxCrz3LJjOFlL1VZI 8uWTL1Cljg8m56fXzkn9kgp4LURIVWgMfRePbybgE/zHpLsmRp5uEZ3crxoYtfZ4khAu bsR8mcC2H1MW2AnGNG1Clk8kdzw3SM5JwMgKT2YMUVVw+Lu2sg0CUHod7x0vfKzIBVC5 wg8Th1R8VEYlUsiVq3T1xnHQhJ6uoBJD8mEOq7E3fy/mgTHKQ1nWRuYkGmvmlaaKqEjo 73FUte6x0JRhwN1Er+4tnoHSomAu1cQSu9WT5Jc5Q9u6iPmZLX/VLTR8ZV7PZQfOfJFO qPmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=Oyn3sZmiPjF/TngT9RzHbuwhX8ZRUSN7M3KfoAL0mso=; b=jSiY3zOwRdhDXy9rw9OOAIeJweQ076EdiLcnIXNAlTM48KtfUpbHCdr70fDQukh/F7 dRKzoAEjC/092WG1j/GYVcwccMs6zxXBThOQBYhwemcsVTNkueFsJnKAPbbruVSfzuYy PZiMdn1N9PVKPmdF5cuQ7C5lV/P630EIlHCVr16luP2nBHE92LI/P4LqI7XtY3PbjRMN nIGJM/fPfmq5gprn+kATWgSN7Ky95V4yDR1aA4LH7WOQfI+Qh34RHNDYw4Tcoo4VHS0J RoexqMCrzrmtVInmMby5pP65mYmhMT8+MT9E10CTehM+VG1TCgjY+LWGMChneQOmwp/K 6XLg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUQV2lTGQSFZRorfoSIGWUhBXCvMh+Xlh+i4u0luBv9YVPMfM09TshleySK3htnoELuvm/fYPDsg/fTfQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.37.50.151 with SMTP id y145mr1793963yby.98.1460471650090; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.207.211 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:34:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <570CE6A7.6050707@dcrocker.net> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570CE6A7.6050707@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 09:34:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113572f8e885f305304a8de9 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 14:34:12 -0000 --001a113572f8e885f305304a8de9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, Dave, On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:14 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 4/11/2016 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > >> Yeah, we had to complain, and complain loudly, but if you check out >> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/proceedings.html, you'll see a lot more IETF >> meetings in Canada, especially during the worst times. There would >> likely have been even more meetings in Canada, except for hosts who >> wanted IETF meetings in specific places in the US (which is fair, >> because those specific places were easier for them to support). >> > > Is it fair? > > If we know of a pattern of problems with getting participants to be able > to attend, shouldn't that be more important than host convenience (as long > as we have the choice of an alternate venue)? The goal of a meeting is to > get work done. Choosing a venue that makes it difficult for participants > to attends works against that basic goal. I'd say that if our deal with hosts is that they are giving us hundreds of thousands of dollars to host a meeting, and they can do that without spending even more money on stuff that's hard in one location, and easier in another, we can't be surprised that they want to do it in the easy location. If that doesn't work for us, we should tell them, and go from there. But that's up to us. Speaking only as a meeting attendee, on this one, of course. > > The Secretariat started opening registration earlier, so people could >> register and request visa letters earlier. I don't know if it ever >> happened, but there was talk about letting people register for more than >> one meeting, so they could request a visa letter for IETF N+1 before >> IETF N had even happened. >> >> When three Nomcom members were delayed getting visas for Honolulu, my >> understanding is that IETF/ISOC folk were making personal calls to the >> US State Department to see what could be done to expedite that. >> > > Every country carries some kinds of problems, given the diversity of IETF > attendance. But some countries are notably more problematic. > > Is it reasonable to hold our meetings in places that require this sort of > special action? If so, why? I suspect that there are other special actions taken when we meet in other places, that haven't gone through episodes of difficulty for Chinese attendees - but honestly, that's what I know most about, from spending ten years at Huawei, especially early on (say, 2005 to 2008), so I don't know what else has been required for other people in other places. I can't comment on "reasonable". Spencer --001a113572f8e885f305304a8de9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Dave,

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:14 AM, Dave Crocker &l= t;dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On 4/11/2016 7:28 = PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
Yeah, we had to complain, and complain loudly, but if you check out
http://www.ietf.org/meeting/proceedings.html, you= 9;ll see a lot more IETF
meetings in Canada, especially during the worst times. There would
likely have been even more meetings in Canada, except for hosts who
wanted IETF meetings in specific places in the US (which is fair,
because those specific places were easier for them to support).

Is it fair?

If we know of a pattern of problems with getting participants to be able to= attend, shouldn't that be more important than host convenience (as lon= g as we have the choice of an alternate venue)?=C2=A0 The goal of a meeting= is to get work done.=C2=A0 Choosing a venue that makes it difficult for pa= rticipants to attends works against that basic goal.

<= /div>
I'd say that if our deal with hosts is that they are giving u= s hundreds of thousands of dollars to host a meeting, and they can do that = without spending even more money on stuff that's hard in one location, = and easier in another, we can't be surprised that they want to do it in= the easy location.

If that doesn't work for u= s, we should tell them, and go from there. But that's up to us.=C2=A0

Speaking only as a meeting attendee, on this one, o= f course.
=C2=A0

The Secretariat started opening registration earlier, so people= could
register and request visa letters earlier. I don't know if it ever
happened, but there was talk about letting people register for more than one meeting, so they could request a visa letter for IETF N+1 before
IETF N had even happened.

When three Nomcom members were delayed getting visas for Honolulu, my
understanding is that IETF/ISOC folk were making personal calls to the
US State Department to see what could be done to expedite that.

Every country carries some kinds of problems, given the diversity of IETF a= ttendance.=C2=A0 But some countries are notably more problematic.

Is it reasonable to hold our meetings in places that require this sort of s= pecial action?=C2=A0 If so, why?

I suspect = that there are other special actions taken when we meet in other places, th= at haven't gone through episodes of difficulty for Chinese attendees - = but honestly, that's what I know most about, from spending ten years at= Huawei, especially early on (say, 2005 to 2008), so I don't know what = else has been required for other people in other places.=C2=A0
I can't comment on "reasonable".

<= /div>
Spencer
--001a113572f8e885f305304a8de9-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 07:36:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05EF812E4CF for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:36:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VfRT4u8lJe-Y for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 123EA12E399 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3CEaE4d027411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:36:14 -0700 References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570CE6A7.6050707@dcrocker.net> To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <570D07D7.5040000@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:36:07 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 12 Apr 2016 07:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 14:36:17 -0000 On 4/12/2016 7:34 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > I'd say that if our deal with hosts is that they are giving us hundreds > of thousands of dollars to host a meeting, and they can do that without > spending even more money on stuff that's hard in one location, and > easier in another, we can't be surprised that they want to do it in the > easy location. > > If that doesn't work for us, we should tell them, and go from there. But > that's up to us. > > Speaking only as a meeting attendee, on this one, of course. The issue isn't what hosts prefer. I issue is the IETF making choices that benefit hosts, to the detriment of participant attendance. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 12 13:17:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CF712EAE2 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 13:17:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sc6DsUEUJfgU for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 13:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22f.google.com (mail-yw0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B707612EA9C for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 13:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id d68so40363237ywe.1 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 13:17:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=Vpo5XPRob3RxFaqkBHtMCrWD+OL8j3sX4730AJrd2dU=; b=nN9MIBDlfdzsEeRnuopAJzNa5arEOUAz6KLKa7mMA8A/cRpFhwumSIKrUs+VRkQqB0 ThDp/uNZjgc3f3fbDHiSxWD9RSrHkAPbXiiGI1zeC8wWVeCh+CBKB1PrtdIvJdVS08Ya 08bIqMHj20n1LhM9fN6WocEGTjBKD1bU5nzPebgB6uLVe32sLkJUkonl3WnSSqdLT4+z 8oIqX1iTdsIaXtQUbCG2ubssmQozyQtohz1HSlzfFbquWyZpjqgDfeybF7/BBEVikLI6 6avymZRJzbOPXp1d5m+qaswBgLvMy6f6dLHcRS9Fp80yYwRL32kUG4GhCzhSEn+YRCr/ unDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=Vpo5XPRob3RxFaqkBHtMCrWD+OL8j3sX4730AJrd2dU=; b=BpcOYNqfqtDIbibBASCmqi3nWwZmQ9Ct3ruSnzm0fXCBLPCXkoYR2mxJ4X+AlA82rL 3s0jOPORUIynC8vFyXXFwbvG4iaNagjXDLkggl4TpYGwv3nvg3EcZQFGWVQyI8wHWcwX 2if8BsbZhOsq+yjmGE3rFP7QII8M/4+TTB3Az66Z+si3jRH5eOJR6B3o6GEkotS57THL B5eMoUKuU2tB+v/j8+HRl0pMyxl0RLqtSKMbI57KOwGihbhyC43i19JEiOwhLCqPSC1I voM+oTXEHxEv9G4Sle3gqTa+tuoi7WmGcazefWNuzD4WFaCdNqhjy7UzsuenFAfE82iW tNig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXl05KBJD1NFu5vz75d83isQAoCSPywVDlLMNRE1S3diPkrBrqG4tc43lR707dVYmGmqApXj1JIkAcCYg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.46.69 with SMTP id u66mr2747504ywu.143.1460492263021; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 13:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.207.211 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 13:17:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <570D07D7.5040000@dcrocker.net> References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570CE6A7.6050707@dcrocker.net> <570D07D7.5040000@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:17:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114073be88ed3f05304f5af3 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:17:45 -0000 --001a114073be88ed3f05304f5af3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 4/12/2016 7:34 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > >> I'd say that if our deal with hosts is that they are giving us hundreds >> of thousands of dollars to host a meeting, and they can do that without >> spending even more money on stuff that's hard in one location, and >> easier in another, we can't be surprised that they want to do it in the >> easy location. >> >> If that doesn't work for us, we should tell them, and go from there. But >> that's up to us. >> >> Speaking only as a meeting attendee, on this one, of course. >> > > > > The issue isn't what hosts prefer. I issue is the IETF making choices > that benefit hosts, to the detriment of participant attendance. Emphasizing that I've never been on IAOC, or on the meeting planning subcommittee of the IAOC, and was only peripherally involved in internal discussions about meetings Huawei did and did not host, other people can comment on whether the right tradeoffs were made (on any particular meeting, or series of meetings), but I don't have enough information about what other options were available to comment further. Spencer > d/ > > -- > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > --001a114073be88ed3f05304f5af3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2016 = 7:34 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
I'd say that if our deal with hosts is that they are giving us hundreds=
of thousands of dollars to host a meeting, and they can do that without
spending even more money on stuff that's hard in one location, and
easier in another, we can't be surprised that they want to do it in the=
easy location.

If that doesn't work for us, we should tell them, and go from there. Bu= t
that's up to us.

Speaking only as a meeting attendee, on this one, of course.



 The issue isn't what hosts prefer.=C2=A0 I issue is the IETF making cho= ices that benefit hosts, to the detriment of participant attendance.

Emphasizing that I've never been on IAOC, or = on the meeting planning subcommittee of the IAOC, and was only peripherally= involved in internal discussions about meetings Huawei did and did not hos= t, other people can comment on whether the right tradeoffs were made (on an= y particular meeting, or series of meetings), but I don't have enough i= nformation about what other options were available to comment further.

Spencer
=C2=A0
d/

--

=C2=A0 Dave Crocker
=C2=A0 Brandenburg InternetWorking
=C2=A0 bbi= w.net

--001a114073be88ed3f05304f5af3-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 13:22:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DAA12DEFF for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 13:22:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lWuBBMlPwiXW for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 13:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B81D012E19C for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 13:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9B4BE33; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:22:00 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ydE6YOe_-ODE; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:21:59 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.49.100] (unknown [86.42.21.187]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B2837BE2F; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:21:58 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1460492519; bh=BgV1mwvjDrHJZdQYjW+3NLAwmCNVoNaD8rOzhMG6nhU=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=pMOuM5qWRHKO9ZpxTl2PyyzpaV44Y3WnUCE5KoSJpxaO/d+tvvCPWmhlgwPGro3j+ Zh3Iv/lGMXJ8bC5LQUQFo+m/+tY545DMpO8KFvlioolyu8nQ31VC1Jqq/7yZegNo+t vINCQJ7NYGYngtH7esv9awL3ns/WUdy7tl1vR7yE= To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Dave Crocker References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570CE6A7.6050707@dcrocker.net> <570D07D7.5040000@dcrocker.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <570D58E6.9050304@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:21:58 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms020802000201030900070901" Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:22:07 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020802000201030900070901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/04/16 21:17, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > I don't have enough information about > what other options were available to comment further. Isn't that a part of the problem that the IAOC constantly face and cause? The community doesn't have enough information about what the IAOC is doing. 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multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114073be7c939e05304f7536 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:25:17 -0000 --001a114073be7c939e05304f7536 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, Stephen, On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 12/04/16 21:17, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > > I don't have enough information about > > what other options were available to comment further. > > Isn't that a part of the problem that the IAOC constantly face > and cause? The community doesn't have enough information about > what the IAOC is doing. I agreed with that, upthread, but, yeah. Spencer --001a114073be7c939e05304f7536 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Stephen,

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Stephen Farrell <step= hen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


On 12/04/16 21:17, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
>=C2=A0 I don't have enough information about
> what other options were available to comment further.

Isn't that a part of the problem that the IAOC constantly face and cause? The community doesn't have enough information about
what the IAOC is doing.

I agreed with that,= upthread, but, yeah.=C2=A0

Spencer=C2=A0
--001a114073be7c939e05304f7536-- From nobody Mon Apr 18 07:12:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B53512D10C for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 13:16:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p16_pPgShQnT for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 13:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm5-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm5-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35D4A12D0C2 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 13:16:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1460319416; bh=SIIPoJ7QbyM5q3ScE42W2Y0gb1DWXf6tBQCIDDA3hM0=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=ZqzLFXsvXV7ZA8WzrWz4bAlgcCYWTGObpk9J7aEBzPYRPvF2GET7tlDwvcfbe+dOMx+zXF5LTlliUrLLHjheGTP/edAw8V7zBrCzRsms5iFQRYQ5Qk2JMbYWHdAirGew2teSShS8o+7p6S/ZeMo2cW1nub5rmogdS/u5i0HMelmn+vXDuuK/gjbMipIGc0Mt4INwCeS4aXgXz1UvOxqZgJYXNjGmREYChDrVw6YoG1Xo9d9STwmd4TZkxJncHYzfXjsgqNs1aFUXX+WyUXtMhNQktMY4z3XMDyLALW0MReQQ9FXr+/2qAIg3PJIIBjk4R3YwOuytAq/AbJvQDi6Dsg== Received: from [98.138.101.132] by nm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2016 20:16:56 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.239] by tm20.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2016 20:15:56 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1039.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2016 20:15:56 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 469782.69239.bm@omp1039.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: h9utWv0VM1kucHoCu3i2vHSxqnby5a8lepKTiNkaAFytWF.4lVWcqjxe9U61gZf .Q9ymkuSHV2Dgt9uwvzoZqkc4qimEYkiex0g21pU8jSWEDhBOzFWQIPtWcCMtJpe0XRwwZ021390 WmSsrWHUhHZl91ZZWRzp5TL4_FGNhR_UlRsqq1DQCO5ZqB5A3gk6BfaV42PghVN_u3uJxCHlB4aB 2LpBUWNiHgUVZJS5vR5kCDLxzbnrI4Mh8vNqrtOX682.OuE9njZUXvQfrnvb55MVtQgo5Rm9r9VP 6UjxUF7L_KA4r7NDrrFTGEUf5.4VewnqHUx_zS2zHNRPyDWeOOE_7wUwllS7p18NEA8iNO9ophz2 AoxoIRowvOlgXeKQZC_ZuzNKPlVci9LZDOGEoqyI25DYpBL13swMvkfkb_mcknA2NuTbqAtymbYs BT.kboJM8RKm.j2H6N50xpKwNkJeBbXOrwOiabVZaBaIEQualTFX17avsAcUcKP8KoN5JemSx0ME 8pgJBCYtgIfyq14hUS2YS6i49iM5A._eNcdA.q6N9H141wNGA1Y9lFYe1 Received: by 98.138.105.250; Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:15:56 +0000 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:15:55 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Stephen Farrell , SM , Andrew Allen , Yoav Nir Message-ID: <1533058755.276287.1460319355623.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> References: <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 07:12:08 -0700 Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 20:16:58 -0000 > >> And, this kind of thing - getting hassled, ignored in restaurants, >> possibly physically assaulted if we are in the wrong area, etc.etc. is >> for IETF participants. Not, IETFer's bringing their families - which >> I will add is not an option for many in the developing world because >> it is far too expensive. It is hard enough for the IETFer himself / >> herself to attend - much less bring their family. > > I don't recall reading a lot of complaints about Hawaii being an exotic > location or being too far. >Sorry, I think you're wrong there. I do recall such issues being >raised by US and non-US participants. Actually, I was talking about complaining about pervasive racism not about the venue being too far or whatever. Just to clarify. Nalini From nobody Tue Apr 19 03:12:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F8312E0CE for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:12:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=PoYKtNXb; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=BgvXgedU Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PLVL9h_1Lmnu for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D5FC12DEB5 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3JA5FCj025066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 03:05:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1461060325; x=1461146725; bh=DMfl3WZHfUnlkx0iixvppHVdvqRlu8gJTKxLX+Z66dA=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=PoYKtNXbGaZM0osmVZdIdM7wnQs4st+Lazx+8gLATyn66W1Cmf99pa8QoBkoqXgdJ nU0RkAV3JgDS/CYv/sZ9ZuAn4IuZ/cGOHpPbIoF9pIe9a/RdewEvu2TJgfnV84uhV+ 2sL3Zh3ZKejmL1oL0S8dFHcuebZeNJwscHBrAAVw= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1461060325; x=1461146725; i=@resistor.net; bh=DMfl3WZHfUnlkx0iixvppHVdvqRlu8gJTKxLX+Z66dA=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=BgvXgedUgJFHCXSfnD0BAd29rV6eKJ/L9VAUyf1pwUqQY4SIaNtFJ26vV+w7sf6WY Pebt2YbXR2YeAi/t74UKR2iY2OgFGwO+zk5gcZFh56KbzzvUo2BrurhP6c9bjEM6uU oksr7VX929QS6Ary92tibEn/lp/25+k1INXN1QUY= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 01:58:54 -0700 To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, diversity@ietf.org From: SM In-Reply-To: <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo. com> References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Christian O'Flaherty , Vinayak Hegde , Alvaro Retana Subject: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:12:30 -0000 Hi Nalini, At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF >work before from other regions because there was no structured way >to start participating and language insensitivity. (BTW, there is a >new member of the Mentoring Team from Latin America, that I met in >Buenos Aires who will translate the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that. A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meeting policy: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people from other regions to start participating except for the meeting training sessions. A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a higher learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there has not been more active participation before. Regards, -sm From nobody Tue Apr 19 04:12:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2111012ED8E for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 04:12:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lF_CDHlvhj0C for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 04:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60A5C12ED8D for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 04:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id u206so23415708wme.1 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 04:12:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=37ah8guJzcZgzih6E2mn+gsKsClF92LoUBO5DLgx5EA=; b=M3fdw8g9m8EqRMFsBRS7da6OvaqX60EG4CoyK5WUxEXCH8ZphqUFDW3BN83mtkQhDf 6EJbgwJGAqOpw6OJ5yPfuS6nokGhXFDLcFYOgy6VsCv6q+9/AK3MKu0eCec1gb8pBGY/ pzZQhfcPdZ+XEFDBsot+WSYVsXLug52yjcRTDSZa3n+WOgcnrXChcx8rLI5iS9DZAXYH 8jk6rrYytxhfwrKG4y106MQNl+5Q0q2uwLE/vcYCMG2o2RFAGhnkxFCXKkwKi9pgJBcQ wZCQjR8h2JDbpDj0oqe4LWPU4dxglBPwRPmhvDo4Dwgua5Uci99xIL5cARAlq7HophLS Q5Bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=37ah8guJzcZgzih6E2mn+gsKsClF92LoUBO5DLgx5EA=; b=WI2wtQaidqcpagQTeC4qT644Vn9E6pqjqw6T9jD0uNG9pz/7XkX4nIEMhQ0Kutvkj/ vXNsizLmBu7GLBMHbgjHnixwBtHZ3fuAUBS+TmcpFzpzBHgt4S6TSffUG6eZsLWW6Ijz BZdMdQ3RkStDvbB/itUSNznZr5qTqtkib+PvIujD0lA7T/RzrNX1sMMUVcXHVnwyHtQ2 cN74zbXrWEx1jC2ULpQAOt/2aCQ22beOmQqiJ2PkvoixKdOVc12I+oxvEXsBj9g7sqiK h8tJ3U53D4ed8bsPBB5ar55zvNxE+oKn3VGmZfwMNfwzp5Fhct/IqoICGn1cPtv7tKPu 5cpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUKf3S8P+dtH6zUHtqaz41sTtmxvfIIjpXkECN/xabqSy4wDslcNNyLNRCPTemi8W46on/E0K+2o18tLQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.231.104 with SMTP id tf8mr2486933wjc.5.1461064329884; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 04:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.133.99 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 04:12:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:42:09 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: SM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Nalini Elkins , "diversity@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana , Christian O'Flaherty Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:12:14 -0000 Hi SM, English is generally not as much as a problem for India as it is for China or LATAM. As India was a English colony before independence, English has been adopted as a language by elites. A decently large part of our education in urban centres is in English. A majority of the people who are likely to contribute to the IETF (Graduate and PG academia, researchers, Network engineers and programmers) already know English. Alongwith Hindi, English is one of the link languages. In fact, much of the business (and research) is carried out in English. Unlike most other countries, it is not uncommon in India for people to know 5-6 languages (two most common being Hindi and English). The most common barriers to IETF contribution in India are 1. Awareness 2. Funding (for the meetings) and time spent. Thanks Vinayak On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 2:28 PM, SM wrote: > Hi Nalini, > At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >> >> I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work >> before from other regions because there was no structured way to start >> participating and language insensitivity. (BTW, there is a new member of >> the Mentoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will >> translate the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) > > > Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The > IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that. A > few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meeting > policy: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf > > There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people > from other regions to start participating except for the meeting training > sessions. A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a higher > learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. > > The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there > has not been more active participation before. > > Regards, > -sm From nobody Tue Apr 19 06:14:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23CD12DAB0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:14:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SN-4-whWFMuU for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22b.google.com (mail-yw0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D18DB12DA2B for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id o66so16239562ywc.3 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=9MFCDtKd/KiRcVBSx9xpVueq4VN6jCL2iYtOSVHKtE4=; b=dxhajNnQfaPnWL5RoIfeoed7HjcVMbaO+24J3JhzZfDTBOLulVVWRvCHJebLdybzFo cDIzRPp424tJtVQ1cDttTVdr3imYfXxkHkzIt2FSYE0BG5vJVQRE7qmI+08/a+/wbKFi cCYI9ZO0Ue78xZ7vtNCWneomFZs+eTDlVbnm2FcwBeYrOPDK55x82G/nKz81eUL6fDpG OHRgvtvkaA610y7tGA4gQsC4A56Vjz8Cfu85gzOMvv6ZX03KWQjZi1jrTm+pZEf6g32o v5lQeHD/Ivn5fs0w4XjDBF+QzFp66qbUWwpL4S2u+BhxuZavB8hnj23Ix3gJCQVEWQk4 N6yQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=9MFCDtKd/KiRcVBSx9xpVueq4VN6jCL2iYtOSVHKtE4=; b=Rrwm75iki8j5XQW7Xv/F/iWPwAqdqTyfZpX8s2iV6D3uIVMS1r4YfUC2QCCXEjkWV0 wuU1E3YI/vErrymMz0ztoJSArWnj88/FPk/3IxLhGGL0SOIvl29ylHJz6gt9S6cRvcbp rHNHYACpT9CJxAoCmVsDAWNGU+d7+dD/v2xc13iVTA9XHUm6NWHyI1WPRNk6floZZvbu CSYFo4O2q4hbt0BJrZOGDXisFr2rVODXKMtYPK4/Np+COKQIPRG/pf3am05dyZ114fAp ZLore6Nsk6z9gw1vBungBPXsdNLVswXQpXtbfQfnnlUDiYcBp51SOMKR3BMxV7KhBUk3 0yUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FX6LW8qpPFnhdAK8qjmtGhtFPJWCb7HoI0Qvd+srn9nah+HlmQCgzp8VScq6uBMsSLgkjEqtYJInsDTwg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.37.203.2 with SMTP id b2mr1610363ybg.148.1461071664037; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.224.212 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:14:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:14:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: SM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c06b65c86c4a80530d641d0 Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Nalini Elkins , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:14:29 -0000 --94eb2c06b65c86c4a80530d641d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I'd like to thank you folks for continuing to look at this. On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 3:58 AM, SM wrote: > Hi Nalini, > At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > >> I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work >> before from other regions because there was no structured way to start >> participating and language insensitivity. (BTW, there is a new member of >> the Mentoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will >> translate the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) >> > > Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. > The IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about > that. A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the > meeting policy: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf > > There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people > from other regions to start participating except for the meeting training > sessions. A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a higher > learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. I joined Huawei in 2005, just as they began to ramp up participation in IETF, and in Paris, I was talking with a Chinese co-worker who had done a presentation in one of the RTG working groups, and asked, "so, was this the first time you've done a presentation like this in English?" It was, but it was also the first time he'd done "a presentation like this" at all. That wasn't a thing, at his university, probably two decades ago (I'm guessing). At least back then, teachers talked, and students listened. He also said, in his meeting report, "understanding questions in English after your presentation is the short stave in the water bucket" (that was the show-stopper, at least for him). I've developed a lot of respect for IETF participants who are working outside their first language ... and in an unfamiliar culture. Spencer --94eb2c06b65c86c4a80530d641d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'd like to thank you folks for continuing to look at = this.

On Tue, Apr = 19, 2016 at 3:58 AM, SM <sm@resistor.net> wrote:
Hi Nalini,
At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.=C2=A0 (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.)

Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.=C2= =A0 A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https://www.ietf.org= /mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf

There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train peop= le from other regions to start participating except for the meeting trainin= g sessions.=C2=A0 A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a= higher learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia.

I joined Huawei in 2005, just as they began to ramp = up participation in IETF, and in Paris, I was talking with a Chinese co-wor= ker who had done a presentation in one of the RTG working groups, and asked= , "so, was this the first time you've done a presentation like thi= s in English?"

It was, but it was also the fi= rst time he'd done "a presentation like this" at all. That wa= sn't a thing, at his university, probably two decades ago (I'm gues= sing). At least back then, teachers talked, and students listened.

He also said, in his meeting report, "understanding q= uestions in English after your presentation is the short stave in the water= bucket" (that was the show-stopper, at least for him).

=
I've developed a lot of respect for IETF participants who ar= e working outside their first language ... and in an unfamiliar culture.

Spencer
--94eb2c06b65c86c4a80530d641d0-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 06:26:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F91412EC81 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:26:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uiL1g6io8cBT for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04B2B12EC7C for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.3.102] (192-174-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.174.192]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F0EB800CC; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:26:24 +0200 (CEST) To: SM , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, diversity@ietf.org References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> From: Fernando Gont X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <571631EA.9010706@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:26:02 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Vinayak Hegde , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:26:34 -0000 On 04/19/2016 05:58 AM, SM wrote: > Hi Nalini, > At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >> I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work >> before from other regions because there was no structured way to start >> participating and language insensitivity. (BTW, there is a new member >> of the Mentoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires >> who will translate the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) > > Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. > The IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about > that. A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify > the meeting policy: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf Well, that's kind of a chicken and egg problem, right? The IETF meets mostly in Europe and North America, because that's where most contributors reside, and hence meeting elsewhere might prevent such contributors from attending the meeting. Obviously, with the same logic in mind, it would be virtually impossible to encourage participation from developing regions, where participants are usually less funded, or not funded at all. > There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train > people from other regions to start participating except for the meeting > training sessions. A person who is not used to discussing in English > faces a higher learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. That's only part of the problem. The cost of attending meetings, and the fact that in practice attending is more important than in theory ;-), are another important part of it. > The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why > there has not been more active participation before. So... I have the short, politically-correct and easy-to-digest list of possible reasons, and the real one. Pick one. :-) Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Apr 19 06:40:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA7B12DB62 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IaxoCEmtKGRG for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECC4412DB1C for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3JDeZrX013551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:40:35 -0700 References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> <571631EA.9010706@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont , SM , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, diversity@ietf.org From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <5716354B.6030106@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:40:27 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <571631EA.9010706@si6networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Christian O'Flaherty , Vinayak Hegde , Alvaro Retana Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:40:48 -0000 On 4/19/2016 6:26 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: > The IETF meets mostly in Europe and North America, because that's where > most contributors reside, and hence meeting elsewhere might prevent such > contributors from attending the meeting. > > Obviously, with the same logic in mind, it would be virtually impossible > to encourage participation from developing regions, where participants > are usually less funded, or not funded at all. If the IETF did most or all of its work at face to face meetings, your assessment would be correct. But it doesn't. Or at least, it is not supposed to. Since we are supposed to do our primary work on mailing lists, the actual model has the simple premise that increasing participation from a region warrants extending the range of regions we hold meetings at. That is, to get the IETF to come a region, there first needs to be more people from that region actively contributing through working group mailing lists. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 19 06:50:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5700E12DBEF for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:50:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j6ZZ9-rBbxzH for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm30-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm30-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.90.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 075BD12DB66 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:50:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461073844; bh=M58WtgkatmrxPO17sTlWTD1XEaKGNo/3wdSqMRUm45s=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=ghBT38YGnid3jujwS3eKC3k33N4z+P8edkrItpk27rDAp/s21ELK4MWYKdwS7Q73UJPsXGQ2PTlnp+A3wlTEAqrOibbShYyyyv4ELp51xb0qRE3wcIfzqzV5bYvNRyX073l/D3cskFZqFGTB787HaBMm9/DVccMBekuk/IfqxYz2pGPIpGPJj1xotN+yl2P59/phx4ScQRIYSgmwHZEuO9HGHSk2CiGjDJboLZQPNvqn8YiC78J3Bd+1QxumzxJ0nEoSfXGn6YQOGhbQvm8fV9HMZgcxeivyLLJEVA63tpdFjRps4S5Hgz73vp2GA59ZAoFyYLgwYE3+L3xE/riPhg== Received: from [98.138.226.176] by nm30.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 13:50:44 -0000 Received: from [98.138.87.3] by tm11.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 13:50:44 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 13:50:44 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 501603.26429.bm@omp1003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: X7VN4rUVM1k7KqiTNX4OI9WYvRLPaFy9ERpdREqgh30auW_SlUPOyzTLfFN51Ev jUg53ZoVhbP2PVZSgIY3rreHve9nM9S0LHsLI9ldCJ60B8Y1yORWAikg1SYIdqpOA9A1Vd25Lhk_ HbB4sjjfpsmz9IBxexmzZxH6kioYbSsWrUPilfp_OLLQR8wP0L6QhYhV7BLU6NrV5VwMyudMxocD hssuRuQeo8cH7FAENyPiEdlrjQiRx96xehpfxGN9hcSOetCTmatAnHiVhNtO2ZpfY9nQAZhJIHL5 rpx90kCpc1jAR961pQ_pIBWBIfKro_.WLYU8nbDO44YDhunUv8UiDdeRsQpq_0X9x.YqrC0ubRX8 HfWWyt3Y9Ky5xXEQW3iyHsUOQehHsBN_Iw0FRnWcN70QmYC9rJsOSdWmtUzsPI_eR__B1LI9FuZj gP8I0.j.xsFlhWRrqoK9FvxUw83ZX6GTDt_AoMh35rJskqRHnI5EpKZv_Kp0Gz8yRK7D4xPS1PAP 0klQdlfSiocAHrQO31OMNWbI- Received: by 98.138.105.253; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:50:44 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:50:43 +0000 (UTC) From: To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , Fernando Gont , SM , "diversity@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1622780532.2650368.1461073843345.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5716354B.6030106@dcrocker.net> References: <5716354B.6030106@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2650367_2050807202.1461073843341" Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Christian O'Flaherty , Vinayak Hegde , Alvaro Retana Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:50:47 -0000 ------=_Part_2650367_2050807202.1461073843341 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Since we are supposed to do our primary work on mailing lists, the=C2=A0 >actual model has the simple premise that increasing participation from a= =C2=A0 >region warrants extending the range of regions we hold meetings at.=C2=A0 >That is, to get the IETF to come a region, there first needs to be more=C2= =A0 >people from that region actively contributing through working group=C2=A0 >mailing lists.=C2=A0Yes, of course. =C2=A0But, it is a bit more nuanced th= an that. =C2=A0 I think it is difficult to get a real sense of the IETF & t= he excitement & purpose unless you attend live & get involved. There was one young mentee I talked to at IETF95 whose eyes were as big as = saucers. =C2=A0He was saying, "this is it! =C2=A0This is where it is all ha= ppening. =C2=A0I want to be a part of this!" =C2=A0 (Then, of course, he wa= nted to me to help him get funding to come again - which I wish I could do!= ) But, I believe he will be a part of a draft review team & then, I think as = we get more & more such people, we can point to well thought out contributi= ons from new people from various regions of the world on the WG email lists= . =C2=A0 BTW, if anyone is interested in commenting, I have made up a structure for = how the Internet Draft review teams (guided by a remote mentor) will work. = =C2=A0I can post the instructions and structure to the list & would love co= mments from anyone. =C2=A0 We are in alpha test!=C2=A0Nalini ------=_Part_2650367_2050807202.1461073843341 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Since we a= re supposed to do our primary work on mailing lists, the 
>actual model has the simple = premise that increasing participation from a 
>region warrants extending the range of r= egions we hold meetings at. 
>That is, to get the IETF to come a region, there first ne= eds to be more 
>people from that region actively contributing through working group&nb= sp;
>mailing li= sts.
 
Yes, of course.  But, it is a bit more nuanced than that.   I = think it is difficult to get a real sense of the IETF & the excitement = & purpose unless you attend live & get involved.

There was one young mentee I talked to at= IETF95 whose eyes were as big as saucers.  He was saying, "this is it= !  This is where it is all happening.  I want to be a part of thi= s!"   (Then, of course, he wanted to me to help him get funding to com= e again - which I wish I could do!)

But, I believe he will be a part of a draft review= team & then, I think as we get more & more such people, we can poi= nt to well thought out contributions from new people from various regions o= f the world on the WG email lists.  

BTW, if anyone is interested in comme= nting, I have made up a structure for how the Internet Draft review teams (= guided by a remote mentor) will work.  I can post the instructions and= structure to the list & would love comments from anyone.   We are= in alpha test!
 
Nalini
------=_Part_2650367_2050807202.1461073843341-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 06:57:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6F812D4FD for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:57:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cYfFTR6gSC_F for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0466212D7EB for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3JDvntH013927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:57:49 -0700 References: <20160410063603.6283348.44889.10575@blackberry.com> <459690655.171220.1460293717474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160410074445.0de30c68@resistor.net> <570A8B0E.5060505@cs.tcd.ie> <570A9419.5090009@dcrocker.net> <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <57163956.5020902@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:57:42 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <570AA89F.5050302@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 06:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] Concerns about Singapore X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:57:56 -0000 Meant to respond to this back when it was posted, but there is a basic point that still is worth pursuing... On 4/10/2016 12:25 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> My own view is that the only way to make sure that a venue is acceptable >> to the community is to publish a list of candidate venues, as early as >> possible, and let the community debate any concerns it might have. > > That is one necessary aspect of transparency. But if the IAOC > consider that making just this one change is enough to tackle > the longer term issue (i.e. things not specific to IETF-100) > then we are heading for more failures. Personally, I do not > think that making just that one entirely obvious change is > anywhere near sufficient - IMO the IAOC needs to re-examine > all the things it does that are not open. I specified a single, narrow issue and offered a specific approach that responds to it. My personal view is that with respect to the concern about whether a city is acceptable for an IETF meeting, the approach is sufficient. No one has suggested that this one action resolves larger concerns about community insight into IAOC activities. No one, that is, until you introduced it here, as a strawman. My understanding is that the IAOC is, in fact, looking at the larger issues more broadly. My own view is that the larger issues should be decoupled from the basic question of assessing whether a city is acceptable, first because the latter has become a more immediate issue, second because (IMO) it is relatively simple to resolve, and third because the larger issues are significantly more complicated to resolve well. > But since I apparently was not clear enough before, here's another > attempt to say what, in addition to handling IETF-100 specifics, > I think the IAOC needs to do now: > > - Decide to, and announce, that the default position is to be open > with all data, email etc. That should happen now. (Or should have > happened already perhaps.) As you have phrased it, in my view, that's an entirely irresponsible starting point, given the nature of the administrative work the IAOC does. Having a goal of sharing as much as is reasonable certainly makes sense. But the downsides of disclosing the wrong information or disclosing information at the wrong time are too high to have a 'default open' model be practical. This is a topic that requires some nuance and simplistic rules don't suit it. However the pressure to be more open is good and I hope the dialogue about it continues. > Lastly, having seen the incremental increases in open-ness that the > IESG has made in the last 5 years, and that not one of those has had > a bad effect that I can recall, despite some fears each time we opened > up more, I think that while some IAOC folks might understandably > be a bit afraid of a default-open policy, I reckon doing so is likely > to just work, if done well. If the work covered the same range of sensitivities, then yes, using the same model would make sense. Since it doesn't, it doesn't. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 19 07:02:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772DD12D9DA for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:02:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C4ElCr5gAp-z for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5483C12D9E0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3JE1xPO014002 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:02:00 -0700 References: <5716354B.6030106@dcrocker.net> <1622780532.2650368.1461073843345.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Fernando Gont From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <57163A51.4080600@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:01:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1622780532.2650368.1461073843345.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:02:07 -0000 On 4/19/2016 6:50 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >>Since we are supposed to do our primary work on mailing lists, the >>actual model has the simple premise that increasing participation from a >>region warrants extending the range of regions we hold meetings at. >>That is, to get the IETF to come a region, there first needs to be more >>people from that region actively contributing through working group >>mailing lists. > Yes, of course. But, it is a bit more nuanced than that. I think it > is difficult to get a real sense of the IETF & the excitement & purpose > unless you attend live & get involved. There certainly is a major difference between participating only over email, versus also going to meetings. But note that even if the meetings start coming to a region, this means that folk in that region need to be able to attend meetings in other regions. > But, I believe he will be a part of a draft review team & then, I think > as we get more & more such people, we can point to well thought out > contributions from new people from various regions of the world on the > WG email lists. The review team effort is an excellent idea and I hope it goes well. > BTW, if anyone is interested in commenting, I have made up a structure > for how the Internet Draft review teams (guided by a remote mentor) will > work. I can post the instructions and structure to the list & would > love comments from anyone. Yes, please! d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 19 07:13:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FBA712DEB8 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mJq1mApB75mC for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm21.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm21.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.90.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C62E612DDB0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:13:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461075217; bh=IlRmKBvwoX4zUKXxtZztBTakGa8XibsLoP0VpnsvhuQ=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=HSm0LUBAOfcrYzFWCkOUPTs309UcEsuFa04TNRR/eJ7UK0K3glFySK4iB7M+VSoOwTaqfUIxkE8zu74YOE4JQx6rFgPHjhzyJLaMdgEj6N1+cmnzr+LbW4l4b08kRTEo/nrXWhFOIVsyQOa4Q0mQfQ5/Ew9EX08UbHrZd9DABmC04wG/Ob7Pz21K/xY1rZhP8CqwZpCo/SuXVZCAdURpEOYu8gktiNa7E7/vVdg53iVx3s4NjYIqHP4QJUidsW10ajzd1u/kX56KhLFE5fm39u5lHbIKimDHYpY0vaBCq7bpKdvGMHDYJdlC0Jen8Ua3SgDI3LLFgFtjSNA2UY4Jmg== Received: from [98.138.100.111] by nm21.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 14:13:37 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.252] by tm100.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 14:13:37 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1044.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 14:13:37 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 280773.65868.bm@omp1044.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 3lpylGQVM1mZ1mWGQ.yQA7hG0VRxid8Vw_xiSy5Ft3tLanjyU6.bkYRHmRP2HMo NBOFHMRgTHoh0DGc.EGaNFGwmdeW9yP6gbp_xZerV9AbDh4l3M6DS3ojLXD89qwRQn7jnjkuYCGV zhrvwuh_KY2JMG1p1XXFvN2tIBD3BRaTYnxxvOTC1H80ulRgybpqBbn7acBkuRONTXpVqE75Qart FbYMLqwmf29Hn.zZI_Bfp7Vq7LJa8GNwwV7pWzxd5qtOyDAzWQvwoc0yEw34xIOUd69Z2hTN2r4B UFIsnHJEkR8LYu6g3JY36cZisSlCLPlk9xha5F2UiisrpQ0UdRhOcHJNW.yhNAyzParSnK5RHJdL EjjqJwSLIYSX38xSWIQDWPG7FPvoI0NVw3qUEcJFXZhqLP7dIeNnoXz9zjxF9ptoI.lB1QkeXWnT SUgU_QfcLh64sp_WpyMGhe3LMiqc8J79WHiBDM_ahdg4i1veZR_grX0wKUO2dmoOShzgkaeOBGfT FCxIk.dj.BpV02cfxtCgOvyg- Received: by 98.138.105.196; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:13:36 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:13:36 +0000 (UTC) From: To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , Fernando Gont Message-ID: <218955600.2663956.1461075216217.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <57163A51.4080600@dcrocker.net> References: <57163A51.4080600@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2663955_580882324.1461075216208" Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , Vinayak Hegde Subject: [Diversity] Instuctions for Internet Draft Review Teams was: Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:13:39 -0000 ------=_Part_2663955_580882324.1461075216208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> BTW, if anyone is interested in commenting, I have made up a structure >> for how the Internet Draft review teams (guided by a remote mentor) will >> work.=C2=A0 I can post the instructions and structure to the list & woul= d >> love comments from anyone. >Yes, please! Thanking you guys in advance for your thoughtful consideration!=C2=A0 The following are the instructions for the team. Procedures for Internet Draft Review Teams---------------------------------= ------------------------- 1. =C2=A0Via email: - Decide what draft to review- Decide what language to use for discussions (I will also be assigning you a remote mentor to work with you. =C2=A0 Plea= se decide on the draft and language first & then I can ask for a mentor fro= m that WG. =C2=A0 The job of the mentor will be to help answer questions & = to keep the discussions on track. =C2=A0 Each mentor will participate for o= ne meeting. =C2=A0This is to be respectful of their time. =C2=A0 People are= busy. =C2=A0But, quite a few will volunteer for one hour or so.) - Decide what time works for a web based live discussion (Skype, Google Han= gout, etc). =C2=A0 The people involved are your team and your mentor. (I will discuss what should happen in the discussion in a moment) 2. =C2=A0Things to consider in choosing a draft The first time your team meets, find a small draft to review. =C2=A0 Your t= eam needs to learn to work together before you handle longer / more complic= ated drafts. =C2=A0Ideally, this is a draft that can be completely discusse= d in one meeting. You will each read the draft and make up 5 questions about the draft. =C2= =A0Send these to the mentor before the meeting. =C2=A0 Do not copy the othe= r people on the team so that they can have their own thoughts and not be "c= ontaminated" by questions that another person asks. =C2=A0 You will be disc= ussing the questions all together in the live web meeting. =C2=A0=C2=A0 The questions can be about something you don't understand about what the au= thors are saying, something you think is wrong, will not work, or could be = better explained. =C2=A0 Please include a section number and the original t= ext in the question to make it easier to discuss. The mentor will organize everyone's questions in order by section. 3. =C2=A0The discussion itself The mentor will lead the discussion. =C2=A0If there are concepts that are n= ot well understood by the team, the mentor will explain. The end result of the discussion should be: - much better understanding of the draft because of the discussion - questions to pose to the email list of the WG for things that are not cle= ar in the draft or are seen as incorrect - one person in the team should post these to the email list. =C2=A0 Please= include that this is coming from the review team & the members. =C2=A0 Wor= k with the team (and the mentor) by email to properly phrase your question 4. =C2=A0After the discussion. Some teams may want to stay together and discuss a new draft. =C2=A0This is= wonderful. =C2=A0 There may be some people who want to stop. =C2=A0That is= perfectly fine as well. =C2=A0 Some people may want to join a different gr= oup to discuss with different people & get new perspectives. =C2=A0This is = also great. I may also have new people who want to join a team. So, at the end of the discussion, I will send a survey to you to find out w= hat you want to do. 5. =C2=A0Please copy me on all emails, I want to see how this is going to w= ork out. =C2=A0After it becomes a well defined procedure, then I can be cop= ied only for problems. Nalini ------=_Part_2663955_580882324.1461075216208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


>> BTW, if anyone is interested in commenting, I ha= ve made up a structure
>> for how the Internet Draf= t review teams (guided by a remote mentor) will
>> = work.  I can post the instructions and structure to the list & wou= ld
>> love comments from anyone.
=
>Yes, please!

Thanking you guys in = advance for your thoughtful consideration!
 

The following are the instructi= ons for the team.


Procedures for Internet Draft Review Teams
----------------------------------------------------------

1.  Via email:

- Decide what draft to= review
- Decide what language to use= for discussions

(I will also be assigning you a remote mentor to work w= ith you.   Please decide on the draft and language first & then I = can ask for a mentor from that WG.   The job of the mentor will be to = help answer questions & to keep the discussions on track.   Each m= entor will participate for one meeting.  This is to be respectful of t= heir time.   People are busy.  But, quite a few will volunteer fo= r one hour or so.)

- Decide what time works for a web based live discus= sion (Skype, Google Hangout, etc).   The people involved are your team= and your mentor.

(I will discuss what should happen in the discussion= in a moment)


2. &= nbsp;Things to consider in choosing a draft

The first time your team meets, find a small draft t= o review.   Your team needs to learn to work together before you handl= e longer / more complicated drafts.  Ideally, this is a draft that can= be completely discussed in one meeting.

You will each read the draft and mak= e up 5 questions about the draft.  Send these to the mentor before the= meeting.   Do not copy the other people on the team so that they can = have their own thoughts and not be "contaminated" by questions that another= person asks.   You will be discussing the questions all together in t= he live web meeting.   

The questions can be about something you do= n't understand about what the authors are saying, something you think is wr= ong, will not work, or could be better explained.   Please include a s= ection number and the original text in the question to make it easier to di= scuss.

The mentor will organize everyone's questions in order by section.


3.  The= discussion itself

The mentor will lead the discussion.  If there are concepts = that are not well understood by the team, the mentor will explain.

The end result of the discussion should be:

- = much better understanding of the draft because of the discussion

- questions to pose to the email list of the WG for things that are no= t clear in the draft or are seen as incorrect

- one person= in the team should post these to the email list.   Please include tha= t this is coming from the review team & the members.   Work with t= he team (and the mentor) by email to properly phrase your question


4.  After the discussi= on.

Some teams may want to stay together and discuss a new d= raft.  This is wonderful.   There may be some people who want to = stop.  That is perfectly fine as well.   Some people may want to = join a different group to discuss with different people & get new persp= ectives.  This is also great.

<= /div>
I may also have new peopl= e who want to join a team.

So, at the end of the discussion= , I will send a survey to you to find out what you want to do.


5.  Please copy me on all e= mails, I want to see how this is going to work out.  After it becomes = a well defined procedure, then I can be copied only for problems.


Nalini
=
------=_Part_2663955_580882324.1461075216208-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 07:20:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5AD12E3B6 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QVSIsyGlhCbO for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm3-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm3-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA22812E15A for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:20:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461075648; bh=3Dkc3OMaBZuLOAFWcwItK8W+US6fhiiDCNtxazcwMJg=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=RTkCyhNHTzKLnc53QGVF2X3lz3q1fNo9KPtSCyNGEZwSgjqLdwNYU2M7I9QyDTZBA/SkMifdPjUsdrjL2EGGy2KGybPUssBqmygK7zPf0iRbqWXsElsKrE5D/p2YwIc7QD0thjHpC+8I5POrN303U3WmOUyR1bdsl1mxvCuify0EzLGziPxeX/lM2BENVDwzS1cIiveaWIYyVgSRZRy2yszcFddXSuYFOlWhd60dSxWrGjAEsnxSYqkW3ugQkyK/tRw79VAoJmksrvRqm4ObkyHt8c7KZwUOmG2qwIfTNzXvfwVRChWb7TBFiE6VPuPQRbFGCUm8jACZKH5H/wJ6BA== Received: from [98.138.226.179] by nm3.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 14:20:48 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.160] by tm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 14:20:48 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1061.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 14:20:48 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 153887.24185.bm@omp1061.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: iTM_x00VM1m7VmURNkr76Yb2yJCgrIWtNu0jZ_pRocNN59DPnbePOjoUEmvNNOW .upSEv8w5ZWl622g8Lo6irgVAAlXbiKLVBRAXhSqFXlXU6gupbbr0v98dUpMp4d323kMHplwaNu5 KBnu1OvKsfVu9RCd9qklPRliB.EvbXLFiu6Fkh7A0ezAzEV1fElsrhgT3VX4KYbp6n93_mHTyjJr ovcj00sXLgSyQQjyzzIGkpspPwGj606uV2QAAN7ewOirBKLL_fgUAqaHDhRjcEtGlW6B9FsoZOXs e7FVB0mgxR6IBQ4MfkGJ_YSqbWoY3Bt3wX0KIOGOrn4lHrrwEV20zLwLu1.dDkBocINtBkm_3m0h wPBzkZ2kjcavZIZ2A_zgKfsFTKDQXnFjg7dl56cmb6NJmFc8ZGSDVX2Un99Xf3hDeUKEZF.6y5R7 BdJ3.ss_0JFe_QCoD4AwaqppTISM4zVd1Bke.9V87c.n1MxTmTx3UN.hniRfzqQ4fPnC0OvsXNTP VS1BXo4scwk9ao9EU0EXjRsPF0lVzlqSUf8NkC9an7Ii1Mbxc9hbftf7H4WiJ6UskfuWeGR7MSaq EiS_FxF0LOhB_2A-- Received: by 98.138.105.193; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:20:47 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:20:46 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , SM Message-ID: <1387245435.2572474.1461075646671.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2572473_551245305.1461075646665" Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:20:51 -0000 ------=_Part_2572473_551245305.1461075646665 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.=C2=A0 (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.=C2= =A0 A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_= 5.pdf There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people f= rom other regions to start participating except for the meeting training se= ssions.=C2=A0 A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a hig= her learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. >I joined Huawei in 2005, just as they began to ramp up participation in IE= TF, and in Paris, I was talking with a Chinese co-worker who had done a pre= sentation in one of the RTG working >groups, and asked, "so, was this the f= irst time you've done a presentation like this in English?" >It was, but it was also the first time he'd done "a presentation like this= " at all. That wasn't a thing, at his university, probably two decades ago = (I'm guessing). At least back then, teachers >talked, and students listened= . >He also said, in his meeting report, "understanding questions in English a= fter your presentation is the short stave in the water bucket" (that was th= e show-stopper, at least for him). >I've developed a lot of respect for IETF participants who are working outs= ide their first language ... and in an unfamiliar culture. Yes. =C2=A0Indeed. I see three initiatives which fall under mentoring where we can help. =C2= =A0I want to do this slowly and carefully. =C2=A0One initiative per IETF in= terval. =C2=A0Make that initiative work, then go on to the next. 1. =C2=A0Internet draft review teams (already started) 2. =C2=A0Internet draft writing teams (will start next time.) =C2=A0 Help p= eople form a group around an idea so they can write a draft together. 3. =C2=A0Internet draft critique teams (will start time after next!) =C2=A0= Help people who have a draft make it better. =C2=A0Do dry runs. =C2=A0 Have= people ask really hard questions so the person is prepared. =C2=A0First in= native language (if appropriate) then in English. =C2=A0 Improve your PPT. All of these will need remote mentors. Nalini ------=_Part_2572473_551245305.1461075646665 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.co= m wrote:
I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.  (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.)

Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.&nb= sp; A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https:/= /www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf

There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people f= rom other regions to start participating except for the meeting training se= ssions.  A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a hig= her learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia.
<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1461074133115_20391">
<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1461074133115_20389">>I joined Huawei in 200= 5, just as they began to ramp up participation in IETF, and in Paris, I was= talking with a Chinese co-worker who had done a presentation in one of the= RTG working >groups, and asked, "so, was this the first time you've don= e a presentation like this in English?"

>It was, but it was also the first time he'd done "a= presentation like this" at all. That wasn't a thing, at his university, pr= obably two decades ago (I'm guessing). At least back then, teachers >tal= ked, and students listened.

>He also said, in his meeting report, "understanding questions i= n English after your presentation is the short stave in the water bucket" (= that was the show-stopper, at least for him).

>I've developed a lot of respect for IETF part= icipants who are working outside their first language ... and in an unfamil= iar culture.


Yes.  Indeed.

I see three initiatives wh= ich fall under mentoring where we can help.  I want to do this slowly = and carefully.  One initiative per IETF interval.  Make that init= iative work, then go on to the next.

1.  Internet draft review teams (already sta= rted)
2. &n= bsp;Internet draft writing teams (will start next time.)   Help people= form a group around an idea so they can write a draft together.

3.  Internet dr= aft critique teams (will start time after next!)  Help people who have= a draft make it better.  Do dry runs.   Have people ask really h= ard questions so the person is prepared.  First in native language (if= appropriate) then in English.   Improve your PPT.

All of these will need remote = mentors.

Na= lini



------=_Part_2572473_551245305.1461075646665-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 07:31:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A71712E6D1; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:31:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u6NYDeHrsu9o; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 041EC12E633; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3JEUvRi014903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:30:57 -0700 From: Dave Crocker References: <1387245435.2572474.1461075646671.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <5716411B.7070206@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:30:51 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1387245435.2572474.1461075646671.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:31:00 -0000 On 4/19/2016 7:20 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > 1. Internet draft review teams (already started) .. > 3. Internet draft critique teams (will start time after next!) Help > people who have a draft make it better. Nalini, Can you clarify the difference between these two activities? In the IETF, 'review' usually involves critical analysis. My guess is that you intend the two efforts to come at different times and to have people who differ in their relationship to the document development process. But that's just a guess and it's not very specific. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 19 07:50:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A932012E901 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBQMNhh2wB6B for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm11-vm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm11-vm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.90.159]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA30912E8E0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:37:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461076624; bh=6TN9J76v7g4SKQdsmp3wJR7DTqBx4xd31QPI0IV5qnQ=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=pgmhiq51mxUiujSsMHTRnvhk0QsipoRVGemvdahoXkSqWrWDmz1d5ie0mAdgapI6nNlk3TUgkxF1+/x0Rno0hbv6SKSxnzD5kJGOXx2L2BYLA8uy+8mck+BYWjmttgNCSjr9h8j3TrZiNm10TyZ+S3nWtTuxTYfKZ8/WkB6jqHBk33A1w2Pbx65ND0zvY5G9iNRFnhAVTSfxmQvo+AscsGjfoscZq477HT1oILPTNbXGaI56KTII4cBdT9Yww5YiWG7A/4ZHCtLOD0d7h3Gw0TYln83mKDKY7dXLVNwwnfNJiLJ3AAnLCQ6SoFgWamZpfO/i6n2RH270D+qs+yfLHg== Received: from [98.138.100.112] by nm11.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 14:37:04 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.171] by tm103.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 14:37:04 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1027.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 14:37:04 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 505750.36443.bm@omp1027.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: BeVR4J0VM1nq848pcsQyxAbsom0uBBvMmxH8PuYazOjXRkE4vZosILiCaJSJEA7 Lnoa.6MACD7LepmjyGJSagxyupMJ0.Bh.z7aqPc997u2xAD8i1rhs1tzjDEfRkCv8dvls2i.ZyMW ksStS2WH47V79huYpZU12hrCv02HSUSjXuWicuNvbaWgdg_Nuh9Tfohm2lw7hFwBTohAC3yiRKOi C021nVxGv534YewuA7C7oK3H346DQsxYrNK9LWIg09SXJy9yYUHalI0iD5Cko0DhC6WUfhmXnMhe 9ZWXh93j5j8oigLRyMShfPD.bK1tMlOdLUFAO51MGAkE5kHUvELhWVH_nQE7aQWghuoPLTuF69rG ulz9PBZEXTU1MC6lEcEEaV.3rF_ofnFVakja4mQIarnADu2Rkw7a9abLxmW1AUVHyEQAVfZZwvnK Yehb2TpKqK3dieLjWFSsRbgR__6wJp2ElRsBSYJI5Vuu5mZWzEqvhFmB7pWl7P2ehW3tBFjY4Ww6 TOxZwQAfUv_N.mFqh_GNEPlVqSZI2TF37zdx0UihiJyute_K0BfY- Received: by 98.138.105.193; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:37:03 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:37:03 +0000 (UTC) From: To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , SM Message-ID: <1396443756.2719869.1461076623226.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <571640D4.4020102@dcrocker.net> References: <571640D4.4020102@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2719868_848608608.1461076623221" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:50:28 -0700 Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:37:08 -0000 ------=_Part_2719868_848608608.1461076623221 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=A0Dave =20 On 4/19/2016 7:20 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > 1.=C2=A0 Internet draft review teams (already started) .. > 3.=C2=A0 Internet draft critique teams (will start time after next!)=C2= =A0 Help > people who have a draft make it better. >Nalini, >Can you clarify the difference between these two activities?=C2=A0 In the= =20 >IETF, 'review' usually involves critical analysis. >My guess is that you intend the two efforts to come at different times=20 >and to have people who differ in their relationship to the document=20 >development process.=C2=A0 But that's just a guess and it's not very speci= fic. =C2=A0Yes. =C2=A0I think I need a different name for the activity #3. What I was thinking is: 3. =C2=A0Internet Draft Author Assistance: =C2=A0The team will help an auth= or who is due to present at an upcoming IETF. =C2=A0etc, etc. But, as I think more, we probably need a step in between, as in: 3. =C2=A0Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1: =C2=A0The team will hel= p an author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot. =C2=A0The gro= up will help the author solidify his / her ideas, see where there are holes= in the logic, etc. 4. =C2=A0Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 2: =C2=A0The team will hel= p an author who is due to present at an upcoming IETF. =C2=A0etc, etc Nalini ------=_Part_2719868_848608608.1461076623221 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Dave
=


On 4/19/2016 7:20 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
> 1.  Internet draft review teams (already started)
..
> 3.  Internet draft critique teams (will = start time after next!)  Help
> people who have a= draft make it better.


>Nalini,

>Can you clarify th= e difference between these two activities?  In the
= >IETF, 'review' usually involves critical analysis.
>My guess is that you intend the two efforts to come at= different times
>and to have people who differ in th= eir relationship to the document
>development process= .  But that's just a guess and it's not very specific.
 
Yes.  I think I need a different name for the activity= #3.

What I was thinking is:

= 3.  Internet Draft Author Assistance:  The team will help an auth= or who is due to present at an upcoming IETF.  etc, etc.


But, as I think more, we= probably need a step in between, as in:

3.  Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1:  The team= will help an author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot. &nbs= p;The group will help the author solidify his / her ideas, see where there = are holes in the logic, etc.

4= .  Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 2:  The team will help= an author who is due to present at an upcoming IETF.  etc, etc

Nalini



------=_Part_2719868_848608608.1461076623221-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 07:50:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E25F12B04D; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:49:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n8ltq2KGtpDM; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x229.google.com (mail-yw0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7972012DA28; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x229.google.com with SMTP id t10so19676973ywa.0; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:49:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=mmOxdbJ7Nt5/55KCFFnOgjoKtxkxaKJwXczk/yR1hMk=; b=m8+0TZw7oj1I2lrYn7RGb++riCtd1QwW5lIF149QU8Na22sS6e2OrsvFsPXe+rLDIR B7o7Jy5TyM6SeCMFD+59DBWOVsASEOGFxC7c6TVh+fyGy95G+cK2c9terGZAFqQ1aHQE dZ8QfE3dYIcUCIXZBz8RUnZkd3N+lFTMzBVgj+n5vKfR7aHUSG/iHawN8GIB9rPkY/2C sNO7GCUlnsDqsk7fLfiUh8zfGpKHS4Lm6IyOaHHuVAG0sv0e9StqfmBeZuGzJAPRkANe gOvQK61gjYB5csfRz+j1DIVA21X6PxZTpVPF1cBjkyTli09CcX7rbRQsOdhaFUrmd+J1 b6XQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=mmOxdbJ7Nt5/55KCFFnOgjoKtxkxaKJwXczk/yR1hMk=; b=fHlmDjD/cllw8OMzpKo1PoqoDpKaVxvH+sBYwT03Vo0lWwIaRtIfDGRQoGnbNoRZcV l6vo4IfMS96IwEC7bS/WKRSwqRrnJyMUTM9tixKmpusfiWqyNNKLBEtEtszk+yvx3dfb 7oiLL8HyIHNs/gurxFYFQvXrcXjsJUeCU7WfiSW9WvUlStHF8YWf3d08HOh++iwnwKDz kLTdBtrHRVGh7U3tuDOoP+nBbKFZ5vw/PcSBIKGuB3IWK3RIFNrfV0WRgI6StCwfG/p4 V2nqM4T997cUCzXWgXai6kQdh32oT2TTtCXmyDBgihW8Farxto4Aif1A7grrTigbUFda cWYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FV/0zSDlJMAIJgl8j8Da80Aga9k68YXkQmdgpZhsYhrhK9i3yIaMAzUHzechytGynixq9YBUdfRX+NITQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.13.226.211 with SMTP id l202mr1959473ywe.294.1461077391698; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.224.212 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:49:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1396443756.2719869.1461076623226.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <571640D4.4020102@dcrocker.net> <1396443756.2719869.1461076623226.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:49:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Nalini Elkins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114fa634ebf7150530d796d7 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:50:28 -0700 Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , Alvaro Retana , SM , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:49:57 -0000 --001a114fa634ebf7150530d796d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 You folks are doing just fine with this, but ... On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:37 AM, wrote: > Dave > > > > On 4/19/2016 7:20 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > > 1. Internet draft review teams (already started) > .. > > 3. Internet draft critique teams (will start time after next!) Help > > people who have a draft make it better. > > > >Nalini, > > >Can you clarify the difference between these two activities? In the > >IETF, 'review' usually involves critical analysis. > > >My guess is that you intend the two efforts to come at different times > >and to have people who differ in their relationship to the document > >development process. But that's just a guess and it's not very specific. > > Yes. I think I need a different name for the activity #3. > > What I was thinking is: > > 3. Internet Draft Author Assistance: The team will help an author who is > due to present at an upcoming IETF. etc, etc. > > > But, as I think more, we probably need a step in between, as in: > > 3. Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1: The team will help an > author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot. The group will > help the author solidify his / her ideas, see where there are holes in the > logic, etc. > Could I suggest that you focus on something like "hasn't attracted the attention of a working group", rather than "does not have an agenda slot"? If the working group doesn't pay attention, the draft isn't going anywhere, whether you have an agenda slot or not. There are working group chairs who give agenda slots to drafts that don't have the attention of a working group, just because they have time available (after dealing with all chartered items, of course). That isn't nearly as significant as presenters think it is. Helping people who have the attention of a working group prepare for presentations is, of course, fine. Spencer > 4. Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 2: The team will help an > author who is due to present at an upcoming IETF. etc, etc > > Nalini > > > > --001a114fa634ebf7150530d796d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You folks are doing just fine with this, but ...

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:3= 7 AM, <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wro= te:
=C2= =A0Dave



On 4/19/2016= 7:20 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
> 1.=C2=A0 Internet draft review teams (already started)
..
> 3.=C2=A0 Internet draft critique teams = (will start time after next!)=C2=A0 Help
> people who = have a draft make it better.


>Nalini,

>Can you clar= ify the difference between these two activities?=C2=A0 In the
>IETF, 'review' usually involves critical analysis.

>My guess is that you intend the two effo= rts to come at different times
>and to have people wh= o differ in their relationship to the document
>devel= opment process.=C2=A0 But that's just a guess and it's not very spe= cific.
=C2=A0
Yes.=C2=A0 I think I need = a different name for the activity #3.

What I was t= hinking is:

3.=C2=A0 Internet Draft Au= thor Assistance: =C2=A0The team will help an author who is due to present a= t an upcoming IETF. =C2=A0etc, etc.


But, as I think more, we probably need= a step in between, as in:

3.=C2=A0 Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1: =C2=A0The team will he= lp an author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot.=C2=A0 The gr= oup will help the author solidify his / her ideas, see where there are hole= s in the logic, etc.
<= br>
Could I suggest that you focus on something like "hasn&#= 39;t attracted the attention of a working group", rather than "do= es not have an agenda slot"?=C2=A0

If the wor= king group doesn't pay attention, the draft isn't going anywhere, w= hether you have an agenda slot or not.

There are w= orking group chairs who give agenda slots to drafts that don't have the= attention of a working group, just because they have time available (after= dealing with all chartered items, of course). That isn't nearly as sig= nificant as presenters think it is.

Helping people= who have the attention of a working group prepare for presentations is, of= course, fine.

Spencer
=C2=A0
4.=C2=A0 Internet Draft A= uthor Assistance: Phase 2: =C2=A0The team will help an author who is due to= present at an upcoming IETF. =C2=A0etc, etc

Nalini

=



--001a114fa634ebf7150530d796d7-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 07:54:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A99712D0BA; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:54:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xa93FPTzZ9Xy; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53A6612D0B1; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3JEsmwr015358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:54:48 -0700 References: <571640D4.4020102@dcrocker.net> <1396443756.2719869.1461076623226.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> To: "diversity@ietf.org" , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <571646B2.2000109@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:54:42 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 07:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:54:51 -0000 On 4/19/2016 7:49 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > Could I suggest that you focus on something like "hasn't attracted the > attention of a working group", rather than "does not have an agenda slot"? +1 d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 19 08:04:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6ED126D74; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:04:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 95-e5XGcWF0d; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 241BD12DA24; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3JF4Gxg015632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:04:16 -0700 From: Dave Crocker References: <571640D4.4020102@dcrocker.net> <1396443756.2719869.1461076623226.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> To: "diversity@ietf.org" , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <571648EA.1040703@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:04:10 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1396443756.2719869.1461076623226.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:04:24 -0000 On 4/19/2016 7:37 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > > 1. Internet draft review teams (already started) > .. > > 3. Internet draft critique teams (will start time after next!) Help > > people who have a draft make it better. ... > >My guess is that you intend the two efforts to come at different times > >and to have people who differ in their relationship to the document > >development process. But that's just a guess and it's not very specific. > Yes. I think I need a different name for the activity #3. > > What I was thinking is: > > 3. Internet Draft Author Assistance: The team will help an author who > is due to present at an upcoming IETF. etc, etc. Oh. Yeah, that sounds extremely useful. > But, as I think more, we probably need a step in between, as in: > > 3. Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1: The team will help an > author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot. The group will > help the author solidify his / her ideas, see where there are holes in > the logic, etc. > > 4. Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 2: The team will help an > author who is due to present at an upcoming IETF. etc, etc So, there's a challenge in designing an overall approach this is simple and useful. It will help quite a bit to create a careful list of the different kinds of help that might be provided, but I suspect the actual work needs to be divided into only a small number of of different groups. My immediate thought is that you might want something like: 1. Document Development Mentors These are the folk who help an author create a readable and useful document and help them interact with the working group. They have continuing 'context' for the work. I suspect they also would help the author prepare for a presentation. 2. Document Reviewers These would be outside readers who would comment informally. In effect, they would augment the commentary of the document mentors. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 19 08:05:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C3A12DEC4; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:02:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYLMoNMib1Qk; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 349D012DF66; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3JF2idY015550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:02:44 -0700 References: <571640D4.4020102@dcrocker.net> <1396443756.2719869.1461076623226.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , SM From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <5716488E.1090906@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:02:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1396443756.2719869.1461076623226.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:05:06 -0700 Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:02:52 -0000 On 4/19/2016 7:37 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > > 1. Internet draft review teams (already started) > .. > > 3. Internet draft critique teams (will start time after next!) Help > > people who have a draft make it better. ... > >My guess is that you intend the two efforts to come at different times > >and to have people who differ in their relationship to the document > >development process. But that's just a guess and it's not very specific. > Yes. I think I need a different name for the activity #3. > > What I was thinking is: > > 3. Internet Draft Author Assistance: The team will help an author who > is due to present at an upcoming IETF. etc, etc. Oh. Yeah, that sounds extremely useful. > But, as I think more, we probably need a step in between, as in: > > 3. Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1: The team will help an > author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot. The group will > help the author solidify his / her ideas, see where there are holes in > the logic, etc. > > 4. Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 2: The team will help an > author who is due to present at an upcoming IETF. etc, etc So, there's a challenge in designing an overall approach this is simple and useful. It will help quite a bit to create a careful list of the different kinds of help that might be provided, but I suspect the actual work needs to be divided into only a small number of of different groups. My immediate thought is that you might want something like: 1. Document Development Mentors These are the folk who help an author create a readable and useful document and help them interact with the working group. They have continuing 'context' for the work. I suspect they also would help the author prepare for a presentation. 2. Document Reviewers These would be outside readers who would comment informally. In effect, they would augment the commentary of the document mentors. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 19 08:05:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A312112DF97 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:03:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rbTEwDr2JI1k for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm15-vm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm15-vm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1005312D767 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:03:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461078243; bh=M3epQtW0YRB4iQUTGb4ewYfWq2xxPX3UKOZBqSzkIU8=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=QUrPee02grox1bpAY18mwy5rNwQEXuwg9ylYzfQ3fiM/nQ+FHpJ/rLvi6QXhVu98GNxq6NtyBnfbjMNWMUvWhCPdGG3a2AhwBchYzRWypTf3udx3IcE7/33OBLvhzrYjEpq3L7wcTKcSAHnbXDHtsuzjNAsuoxvlJUla9JckDSeaau6jtfCfdQZHcLjkTznbUHcriwroxPa9OFKiGTsB5YYYP8vim2tx2oa8yEVAd0AcYk3EFFvh2l9DD228F2WUIi9uktpAjoi+QBbU1P6BVcIqiLjdp5BP63XxlIpa855kJYFqAvQp6hdaW70iqUzK3APq8LZ4XwoPrZVWjyckGw== Received: from [98.138.100.113] by nm15.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 15:04:03 -0000 Received: from [98.138.87.4] by tm104.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 15:03:42 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 15:03:42 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 488015.57197.bm@omp1004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 2XMCfv4VM1lQfPlp5dKG8iOD8jeahTDLkNhg_DWL21qSVUeb5QtUYXn6J0oZxZn 56OwveEcUio3i6t9Qw3jtyJDOOhNoU1hwMlOM1WjJT8M8VbaShIzcZ8kXmymjAEzmWXPxG0zcf.w 2AHtffHk_AoFq8Em7PpiNxtra2aJXGCp59ztmlQqaMADjlIsn8HA.N6vtwFqmNPjIQsp._wSlQn9 NabaUk0STGZqgpR2ylyGRPzdKrbWjE4P7glrmwkVuSfgsoifxvv2BoDwIAhrXHVtvJZXN3vhttwG riLZ_h_HYM3m_9dbqVzEBk4r70r6g13KARXblsKEFE.gyjB8xKn21vuJxqoMCCCQTOJ.Jnaeu6Ti d12TUwQf6cwUgt89gAXdUjMCXeMC_aCjQA6irgH6ior7A745S1Ks4aM.XvIoKVjp1SEISTY9caau LU_4G2lT41BcrQa1LGQ5M6EdDWarZaJB.P9.kZQqw51cxqNum7dJIotcF7sBq.pIFus13WK2nloI BlZlpl.KAJUIArLVE2KI_Llw- Received: by 98.138.101.176; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:03:42 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:02:57 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Message-ID: <303102305.2610836.1461078178024.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2610835_1083035457.1461078178021" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:05:06 -0700 Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Vinayak Hegde , "diversity@ietf.org" , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , SM , Alvaro Retana , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty Subject: Re: [Diversity] [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:03:44 -0000 ------=_Part_2610835_1083035457.1461078178021 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3.=C2=A0 Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1: =C2=A0The team will hel= p an author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot.=C2=A0 The gro= up will help the author solidify his / her ideas, see where there are holes= in the logic, etc. >Could I suggest that you focus on something like "hasn't attracted the att= ention of a working group", rather than "does not have an agenda slot"?=C2= =A0 >If the working group doesn't pay attention, the draft isn't going anywhere= , whether you have an agenda slot or not. >There are working group chairs who give agenda slots to drafts that don't = have the attention of a working group, just because they have time availabl= e (after dealing with all chartered >items, of course). That isn't nearly a= s significant as presenters think it is. >Helping people who have the attention of a working group prepare for prese= ntations is, of course, fine. Yes. =C2=A0I think that is very good. =C2=A0There are multiple reasons why = a draft doesn't attract the attention of a working group. =C2=A0 That could= be a very fruitful conversation. But, I what I actually meant is that the draft was written but not really r= eady for "prime time", if you will. =C2=A0 Just in my experience, it seems = that once you have a network of people within the IETF, then if you have a = draft that you are not quite ready to post to the WG email list, you ask pe= ople privately if they will review. =C2=A0 And others ask you. =C2=A0I am d= oing that right now for someone else before they post. But for people who don't have a network, then this is to help them. =C2=A0 = I think it is very good to ask for private review first. =C2=A0So, maybe we= call it that: As in: 3. =C2=A0Internet Draft Author: Private Review: Prior to posting to the pub= lic email list for your WG. You actually bring up the topic of "problems progressing your draft", I thi= nk. =C2=A0A big topic. Nalini ------=_Part_2610835_1083035457.1461078178021 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


3.  Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1:  The tea= m will help an author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot.&nbs= p; The group will help the author solidify his / her ideas, see where there= are holes in the logic, etc.

>Could I suggest th= at you focus on something like "hasn't attracted the attention of a working= group", rather than "does not have an agenda slot"? 

>If the working group doesn't pay= attention, the draft isn't going anywhere, whether you have an agenda slot= or not.

>There= are working group chairs who give agenda slots to drafts that don't have t= he attention of a working group, just because they have time available (aft= er dealing with all chartered >items, of course). That isn't nearly as s= ignificant as presenters think it is.

>Helping people who have the attention of a working gr= oup prepare for presentations is, of course, fine.


Yes.  I think that is very good.  There are multiple= reasons why a draft doesn't attract the attention of a working group. &nbs= p; That could be a very fruitful conversation.

But, I what I actually meant is that th= e draft was written but not really ready for "prime time", if you will. &nb= sp; Just in my experience, it seems that once you have a network of people = within the IETF, then if you have a draft that you are not quite ready to p= ost to the WG email list, you ask people privately if they will review. &nb= sp; And others ask you.  I am doing that right now for someone else be= fore they post.

But for people who don't have a network, then this is to help them. &= nbsp; I think it is very good to ask for private review first.  So, ma= ybe we call it that:

As in:

3.  Internet Draft Author: Private Review: Prior to posting to t= he public email list for your WG.

You actually bring up the topic of "problems progres= sing your draft", I think.  A big topic.

Nalini
------=_Part_2610835_1083035457.1461078178021-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 08:13:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C1F12DB8D for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:13:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EZ4gBau_QV0h for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm22-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm22-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22BDA12E71D for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:13:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461078786; bh=P5G4QnwMK/HYlPA82vK71cNUtIyRixB4cfAhgrPDbXQ=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=bFNGw8aLbIoCFRGWpQSxxJL/V0+CUz+RlJ5K7N6FWxfzuzSFu5I1k6syNxS6L95ZDW9RP/VTpE4KtxHJSs+GLnkvRaB2yQ51byncoaFnhZNvmZrzmivGmmWeBh+Sm1GpuJtVaO7K4+RLKNAT0DHdgW4xkp90RZJbhrGP0upIr6ljJys6dU8os0ixBTFe9tLyOQSpJFLeaGxteo05kZsiWKLt8xL79Z3S92lJy0t6TrCs5kHz9CuBqlGbEIa+4EsaJ1VMdlg7UZWm0+JckUvLjnw6chVd2Xbl6ez/7gUJ5yWW7fSg/Yv4yxWZBIWo7HESsGb7oJpurjcJsAgVikdC7Q== Received: from [98.138.100.111] by nm22.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 15:13:06 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.246] by tm100.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 15:13:06 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1060.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 15:13:06 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 12901.64486.bm@omp1060.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: oglpyEsVM1md.g0u2yv5AQ4kpj5Hz66WMxNmK2zGXbvD0eSzEL8KLagz1fbc1HC Z0Yn7G0oo9_0E1zpmasuMxiwiminZbg3UVWIQkFQrJ.ZXeyJZwnRtNUtuPTaoWOoAkUOEczLKerc JyBT8WUSbAaObLZciSsU_.zdft_2rHPDtionF0cJhV0p_f48r8W_TkOf3Nx22glz9Huj15XZ0DF3 pJpM5jp3c9AfqcVxf0VJ9FnK7fbVTcgHDDxY6XxxbiQwq2yA4kUC0NGyTtWoMS3.tfYzr3NV7xxf 2pBkcJFqNaEu3hzzJMOUeJa1CyGFAtWtQifI8vjC.JJaDUWxHivGVFB0RFm_SLSoSXVDM1_TemZG WFdxXIlqVcnM1yXYwOBVejpdU7yuY8aVOahDxvDGkegnoZrZjCa5jKokkgHLbxWonrQp.P8Q9R4g xFBj.S5tw5cbfIvG51jgwms2e9UP7BdiJ4weHy.EDrT._V1PIrT7nSXE7u7Nj0Nin7HEDEVcNHkn LaXRFekY_CA1Quaplzrf_.EI- Received: by 98.138.105.212; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:13:05 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:13:00 +0000 (UTC) From: To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , SM Message-ID: <320147208.2707625.1461078780566.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5716488E.1090906@dcrocker.net> References: <5716488E.1090906@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2707624_1042926728.1461078780562" Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Vinayak Hegde , Alvaro Retana , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty Subject: Re: [Diversity] [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:13:09 -0000 ------=_Part_2707624_1042926728.1461078780562 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=A0 > But, as I think more, we probably need a step in between, as in: > > 3.=C2=A0 Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1:=C2=A0 The team will h= elp an > author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot.=C2=A0 The group = will > help the author solidify his / her ideas, see where there are holes in > the logic, etc. > > 4.=C2=A0 Internet Draft Author Assistance: Phase 2:=C2=A0 The team will h= elp an > author who is due to present at an upcoming IETF.=C2=A0 etc, etc >So, there's a challenge in designing an overall approach this is simple=20 >and useful.=C2=A0 It will help quite a bit to create a careful list of the= =20 >different kinds of help that might be provided, but I suspect the actual= =20 >work needs to be divided into only a small number of of different groups. >My immediate thought is that you might want something like: > =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Document Development Mentors > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 These are the folk who help an author create a reada= ble and=20 >useful document and help them interact with the working group. They have= =20 >continuing 'context' for the work.=C2=A0 I suspect they also would help th= e=20 >author prepare for a presentation. > 2. Document Reviewers > =C2=A0 These would be outside readers who would comment informally.=C2=A0= In=20 >effect, they would augment the commentary of the document mentors. Dave, I like this approach a lot. =C2=A0 I think the document development m= entors should be of two types : 1. =C2=A0in native language (if needed) 2. English I also think that if people wanted help in making their draft more readable= - I am just talking about the English part of it, then maybe we need: 1.5 =C2=A0English Review Mentors These are people who will just review for grammar, sentence construction, r= eadability, etc. The idea is that before you even post, you have done a lot of homework & re= view. =C2=A0I think a nicely written, well-thought out draft, is more likel= y to attract the attention of the WG. =C2=A0Putting your best foot forward,= as it were! Nalini =C2=A0 ------=_Part_2707624_1042926728.1461078780562 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

=
> But, as I think more, we probably need a step in b= etween, as in:
>
> 3.  Inter= net Draft Author Assistance: Phase 1:  The team will help an
> author who has a draft but does not have an agenda slot.&nbs= p; The group will
> help the author solidify his / her= ideas, see where there are holes in
> the logic, etc.=
>
> 4.  Internet Draft Auth= or Assistance: Phase 2:  The team will help an
> = author who is due to present at an upcoming IETF.  etc, etc

>So, there's a challenge in designing an ov= erall approach this is simple
>and useful.  It w= ill help quite a bit to create a careful list of the
>= ;different kinds of help that might be provided, but I suspect the actual <= br clear=3D"none">>work needs to be divided into only a small number of = of different groups.

>My immediate = thought is that you might want something like:

>    1. Document Development Mentors

>       These are the folk who help= an author create a readable and
>useful document and= help them interact with the working group. They have
&g= t;continuing 'context' for the work.  I suspect they also would help t= he
>author prepare for a presentation.


> 2. Document Reviewers

>   These would be outside readers w= ho would comment informally.  In
>effect, they w= ould augment the commentary of the document mentors.


<= /div>
Dave, I like this approach a lot.   I think the document develop= ment mentors should be of two types :

1.  = ;in native language (if needed)

2.= English

I also think that if peop= le wanted help in making their draft more readable - I am just talking abou= t the English part of it, then maybe we need:

<= div class=3D"y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1461078249407_15892" = dir=3D"ltr">
1.5  English Review Mentors

These are people who will just review for= grammar, sentence construction, readability, etc.


The idea is that before you even po= st, you have done a lot of homework & review.  I think a nicely wr= itten, well-thought out draft, is more likely to attract the attention of t= he WG.  Putting your best foot forward, as it were!
=
Nalini


 
------=_Part_2707624_1042926728.1461078780562-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 08:24:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F8512DD6A; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:24:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K7ImCfJkOZ2v; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BC1212DBC8; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3JFOiFM016009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:24:45 -0700 References: <5716488E.1090906@dcrocker.net> <320147208.2707625.1461078780566.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <57164DB6.4020607@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:24:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <320147208.2707625.1461078780566.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:24:47 -0000 On 4/19/2016 8:13 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > I also think that if people wanted help in making their draft more > readable - I am just talking about the English part of it, then maybe we > need: > > 1.5 English Review Mentors > > These are people who will just review for grammar, sentence > construction, readability, etc. Well, my experience for such documents is that the mentor needs to get deeply into the substance of the document and the process needs to be extended. In my experience, simple language help is easy, but frankly not that common or at least not really different from what drafts by 'native' English speakers need. The real challenge is developing an adequate understanding of what the author /intends/ and then helping to figure out how to write that well. And for reference, it's not uncommon to have a draft from a 'native' English speaker that also needs this sort of help... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 19 09:35:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4FA12E0CC for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:35:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rGWJDM-HbH3o for ; 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19 Apr 2016 16:35:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1058.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 16:35:23 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 848683.16771.bm@omp1058.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: xPVVcN8VM1nfdEC_G9wRYkG1E701TLdr2ZcDyP6YYtiG4DlqNNbFikcTE1Wm57A N7cmqWvbp3l54e.T7vVFzitce7oNqVYb7UgEv8lDNj0moMJy2n883Nl_SUutW2ovR77FHFHChIXF oM.1my90zzoqZYlVsJQVWi4BL1n83bTHZ1ip4iVThkj1wQGhQZsbzHBVpbitEBoLAqPtFodBAvXX E1KxTnuWiFBk.VhsjyJFAIrKvOWMiKVwxyW8T140XubjSJ_e2r5spsMsvybC0NQWyOJsiJht8yCe YJGKT5drmev.b0A2SqKPkD3e.etaivcgHMHcANROowhb2AHKQhyiBw_TpfjzPcuJIu_5OhS8J23s 95aCC4BsDmPPSmOD6jPMFWeUYonh2ETOrf.E7goF_t4P04KoN6TgermWdaBI6f.QqkJ5HaYkNll4 5s14QgHm9R0Dnen7I5KM18UdpxFGtnm3JW0iZW9wDSdczPvxvqbsDGKHjP10FJJS02d9fMbreoVl qLj6h9GPHjmTJ0d1VzomleHPTLfQee6xnKrgxhVvPYdQ7kBHYky4- Received: by 98.138.101.171; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:35:23 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:35:22 +0000 (UTC) From: To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Message-ID: <1808515581.2704032.1461083722718.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <57164DB6.4020607@dcrocker.net> References: <57164DB6.4020607@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2704031_2007292368.1461083722713" Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:35:28 -0000 ------=_Part_2704031_2007292368.1461083722713 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=A0 =20 On 4/19/2016 8:13 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >> I also think that if people wanted help in making their draft more >> readable - I am just talking about the English part of it, then maybe we >> need: >> >> 1.5=C2=A0 English Review Mentors >> >> These are people who will just review for grammar, sentence >> construction, readability, etc. >Well, my experience for such documents is that the mentor needs to get=20 >deeply into the substance of the document and the process needs to be=20 >extended. >In my experience, simple language help is easy, but frankly not that=20 >common or at least not really different from what drafts by 'native'=20 English speakers need. >The real challenge is developing an adequate understanding of what the=20 >author /intends/ and then helping to figure out how to write that well. >And for reference, it's not uncommon to have a draft from a 'native'=20 >English speaker that also needs this sort of help... =C2=A0I think you are right on all counts. =C2=A0I have seen some very horr= ible prose from native English speakers. But, the mentoring program is not just for non-native English speakers. =C2= =A0It is for all IETFers. Having said all this, this is a great discussion but really better to be ha= d close to IETF97 when such mentoring programs will start. =C2=A0 I will ke= ep all these notes but we have some immediate issues with the current Inter= net Draft Review teams. So far we have 25 people signed up. =C2=A0So far, so good. =C2=A0But the is= sue is that I can only form 2 teams out of these. =C2=A0These are formed: = =C2=A0 1) Spanish : DNSOP 2) English: 6lo / 6tisch Now, I have told the teams to go off & decide what drafts they want to revi= ew. =C2=A0Great. But, the problem is that I am left with a bunch of singletons, as it were. = =C2=A0That is, one person who wants to speak Spanish & work on TLS, for exa= mple. =C2=A0 So, I need a bigger pool to get more matches. =C2=A0(Why do I = feel like eharmony?) I think that if the people leading the remote hubs could publicize the init= iative, then we would probably get more people. =C2=A0Any other ideas? =C2= =A0 I think we are probably good for a week or so, but then pool size will = become the problem preventing expansion. Nalini ------=_Part_2704031_2007292368.1461083722713 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

<= br>
=

On 4/19/2016 8:13 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestac= k.com wrote:
>> I also think that if people wan= ted help in making their draft more
>> readable - I= am just talking about the English part of it, then maybe we
>> need:
>>
>> 1.= 5  English Review Mentors
>>
>> These are people who will just review for grammar, sentence
>> construction, readability, etc.

>Well, my experience for such documen= ts is that the mentor needs to get
>deeply into the s= ubstance of the document and the process needs to be
>= ;extended.

>In my experience, simpl= e language help is easy, but frankly not that
>common= or at least not really different from what drafts by 'native'
English speakers need.

>The = real challenge is developing an adequate understanding of what the
>author /intends/ and then helping to figure out how to write= that well.

>And for reference, it'= s not uncommon to have a draft from a 'native'
>Engli= sh speaker that also needs this sort of help...

 I think you are right on all counts.  I have seen some= very horrible prose from native English speakers.

But, the = mentoring program is not just for non-native English speakers.  It is = for all IETFers.

Having said all this, this is a great discu= ssion but really better to be had close to IETF97 when such mentoring progr= ams will start.   I will keep all these notes but we have some immedia= te issues with the current Internet Draft Review teams.

So far we have 25 people signed up.  So far, so good.  B= ut the issue is that I can only form 2 teams out of these.  These are = formed:  

1) Spanish : DNSOP

2) English: 6lo / 6tisch

Now, I have told the teams to go off & decide= what drafts they want to review.  Great.

<= div class=3D"y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1461083125175_6843" d= ir=3D"ltr">But, the problem is that I am left with a bunch of singletons, a= s it were.  That is, one person who wants to speak Spanish & work = on TLS, for example.   So, I need a bigger pool to get more matches. &= nbsp;(Why do I feel like eharmony?)

I think that if the people leading the remote hubs could publicize the in= itiative, then we would probably get more people.  Any other ideas? &n= bsp; I think we are probably good for a week or so, but then pool size will= become the problem preventing expansion.

Nalini

= ------=_Part_2704031_2007292368.1461083722713-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 09:38:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECAF12E1AC; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:38:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x-EQpairSSiV; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4F4712DEC0; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3JGcskC017891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:38:55 -0700 References: <57164DB6.4020607@dcrocker.net> <1808515581.2704032.1461083722718.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <57165F18.4030404@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:38:48 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1808515581.2704032.1461083722718.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" Subject: [Diversity] early mentoring for /any/ draft (was - Re: [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:38:57 -0000 On 4/19/2016 9:35 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > think you are right on all counts. I have seen some very horrible prose > from native English speakers. > > But, the mentoring program is not just for non-native English speakers. > It is for all IETFers. Nalini, There is an appealingly subversive possibility in this: Getting "outside" people to review work much earlier in its lifecycle. We have long lamented the fact that we do reviews late in the cycle, after a great deal of energy has been expended and people have become entrenched. Getting others to review the work early it its development could do considerably more than improve its writing... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Apr 19 09:52:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35DD12E92A for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:52:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C8R7XgqT96Eg for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm18-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm18-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B91612E119 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:52:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461084768; bh=fA4NrEEgwe7CX6QUGG3uU+Sn8ZpVZ3JqwXShk+mrab8=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=efPBZbksblGiqxYRp3PuATOgLn3XoQfJ6Ui3oHqlsZ+Ry3B13Wmrx8sTzV8hxf3JSdWy+WjW4Zadk09nFO+KdPfIneUN95wILAzWQm/VyRf6gddAAW+j0CjKgUo3GW0CNqBWWiW9ENq1BCZwFRONCvCf3J/dBEhZBBFRYBOTBP1NNWyNIiAbm0gNffSQzCiZSDHg/97WDDe3hnvVi9+A3LPOMheufOGQajLRqXMLsEn4z9B21hg1sTZvhIoZzyfFKv21/il7Xqkqnx90zYYI4eLXb61eYYdIDcpsKCG19sIaCS4yZPsvVzKynyoEJooDya+pJJzE/7KRAiOePDgrkA== Received: from [98.138.226.178] by nm18.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 16:52:48 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.168] by tm13.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 16:52:48 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1069.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 16:52:48 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 841527.65965.bm@omp1069.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 5eq0t8YVM1ldrdmXu0I2PQmOurvgltDadlmmm32Uz.snJPD3QlVm7Z9KN6KTADb jWEBtVKurQs5TjRdGe1bS3VEzl8dDwFWWITCtv8RlvIau3MbCGdVs21Z843QUJVLaazcsqtwHCPb _WWw17EXlkFHo13.eEF0QV4SYcOaleaq5nXQorFh9sxBblw.ME41ljqe8S4GfT.Zij.iUEGLElKv EOJ8FGj98EVvCBq.bzpgCgZhTLpwpzeYcjM8AEBMjwx.dawGAud_aReLkUX16eqf90nCF3RZFHnh HqvpazFhrDxNSYqYTbxsQ2UBPcms2K1NAqVHVjzZR_vhNAUfptTBUUQ9Oq.BeNbBFqTNQZw8mSLI Sz4aOJODV_P.BxgF2FRgE7p4Do10PXzujJjc9j8iQUzIZCxt2a1UTMKtCAj72joMz9.X_MahQLpP CQXoqUxirilTZ0geijoMdYCJjHePyeDyDrzqULtJjdCBJOJJOS9r41tBUI8H9HXdRwOE9FkKJBRP 87KKJJP2yO6ejT7DHx.36BWc5eDFGL66dDVJFy4veCfxToM0O6Kc- Received: by 98.138.105.204; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:52:48 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:52:38 +0000 (UTC) From: To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Message-ID: <1010651043.2778485.1461084758891.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <57165F18.4030404@dcrocker.net> References: <57165F18.4030404@dcrocker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2778484_2098327377.1461084758887" Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Diversity] early mentoring for /any/ draft (was - Re: [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:52:53 -0000 ------=_Part_2778484_2098327377.1461084758887 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/19/2016 9:35 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >> think you are right on all counts.=C2=A0 I have seen some very horrible = prose >> from native English speakers. >> >> But, the mentoring program is not just for non-native English speakers. >>=C2=A0 It is for all IETFers. >There is an appealingly subversive possibility in this:=C2=A0 Getting=20 >"outside" people to review work much earlier in its lifecycle.=C2=A0 We ha= ve=20 >long lamented the fact that we do reviews late in the cycle, after a=20 >great deal of energy has been expended and people have become=20 >entrenched.=C2=A0 Getting others to review the work early it its developme= nt=20 >could do considerably more than improve its writing... Indeed. The mentoring initiative I want to start after Berlin is for people to soli= cit a team to work with them to co-author a draft. =C2=A0That is, person x = has an idea (but no draft), he / she gets 5 minutes & 2 foils to present th= e idea in a webinar. =C2=A0 Others on the webinar ask questions for another= 5-10 minutes. =C2=A0 Then, if people would like, they can tell person x th= at they would be interested in being a co-author. If person x gets no takers as far as co-authors, he / she may wish to draw = the inevitable conclusion. Of course, if person x feels that they have not fairly represented themselv= es, they can have a second chance. =C2=A0But, after the second time, and st= ill no takers .... BTW, no third chances. Nalini ------=_Part_2778484_2098327377.1461084758887 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 4/19/2016 9:35 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
>= > think you are right on all counts.  I have seen some very horribl= e prose
>> from native English speakers.
>>
>> But, the mentoring program is= not just for non-native English speakers.
>> = It is for all IETFers.

>There is = an appealingly subversive possibility in this:  Getting
>"outside" people to review work much earlier in its lifecycle.&nbs= p; We have
>long lamented the fact that we do reviews= late in the cycle, after a
>great deal of energy has= been expended and people have become
>entrenched.&nb= sp; Getting others to review the work early it its development
>could do considerably more than improve its writing...

Indeed.

The mento= ring initiative I want to start after Berlin is for people to solicit a tea= m to work with them to co-author a draft.  That is, person x has an id= ea (but no draft), he / she gets 5 minutes & 2 foils to present the ide= a in a webinar.   Others on the webinar ask questions for another 5-10= minutes.   Then, if people would like, they can tell person x that th= ey would be interested in being a co-author.

If person x gets no takers as far as co-authors, he / she may wi= sh to draw the inevitable conclusion.

Of course, if person x feels that they have not fairly represented them= selves, they can have a second chance.  But, after the second time, an= d still no takers ....

BTW, no thi= rd chances.

Nalini



=
------=_Part_2778484_2098327377.1461084758887-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 10:14:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48EF912D731 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=pQs1d9uB; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=pu6DBaBC Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 33E5Z0FZSW71 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF7212D0C1 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3JHEU2Z029074 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:14:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1461086081; x=1461172481; bh=Q9OIe3fQ7egAPsimTIruoGHHdZx4CMUPh9gRobHqLbk=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=pQs1d9uB+vkTOk2Dua87rez1KM7wjAAfeeslIkHWJaH2711eD5HTMUiOhWKlC63eb 6RWAR4kgqXA2AeUrtMCwbfoemSfG17s1VukXP0Zb+GVwG32hWABsijV7ww547JRMkj 99sv/vk0dCCNJ3sXkjDFBHJzKvAgYwcCMSRJE/ng= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1461086081; x=1461172481; i=@resistor.net; bh=Q9OIe3fQ7egAPsimTIruoGHHdZx4CMUPh9gRobHqLbk=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=pu6DBaBCK/sC5vNooS+2SbovP1IOlNCqyz8WYWSHGkQVS1i4Xrhyn2BClw6nIdY6+ O83ZERiX+nxuXrZY5VYUfKSy9fGHU+e2XJ6oQW54M3zInPTl78RUYi4TdJiI6E2/Q1 32v/Z/tsehQ7BVLqogfCf8Du4BqdKyMMis+XYyl8= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160419082036.0eadf038@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:33:23 -0700 To: Vinayak Hegde , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Fernando Gont , dcrocker@bbiw.net, Nalini Elkins , diversity@ietf.org From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:14:53 -0000 Hi Vinayak, Spencer, Fernando, Dave, Nalini, At 04:12 19-04-2016, Vinayak Hegde wrote: >English is generally not as much as a problem for India as it is for >China or LATAM. As India was a English colony before independence, >English has been adopted as a language by elites. A decently large >part of our education in urban centres is in English. A majority of >the people who are likely to contribute to the IETF (Graduate and PG >academia, researchers, Network engineers and programmers) already know >English. [snip] >The most common barriers to IETF contribution in India are 1. >Awareness 2. Funding (for the meetings) and time spent. Thanks for the above. At 06:14 19-04-2016, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >It was, but it was also the first time he'd done "a presentation >like this" at all. That wasn't a thing, at his university, probably >two decades ago (I'm guessing). At least back then, teachers talked, >and students listened. The last sentence is about learning by observing. >He also said, in his meeting report, "understanding questions in >English after your presentation is the short stave in the water >bucket" (that was the show-stopper, at least for him). > >I've developed a lot of respect for IETF participants who are >working outside their first language ... and in an unfamiliar culture. Ok. At 06:26 19-04-2016, Fernando Gont wrote: >Well, that's kind of a chicken and egg problem, right? Yes. >The IETF meets mostly in Europe and North America, because that's where >most contributors reside, and hence meeting elsewhere might prevent such >contributors from attending the meeting. > >Obviously, with the same logic in mind, it would be virtually impossible >to encourage participation from developing regions, where participants >are usually less funded, or not funded at all. It is usually a funding problem. >That's only part of the problem. The cost of attending meetings, and the >fact that in practice attending is more important than in theory ;-), >are another important part of it. In other words, an important part of participation in active IETF work means attending meetings even though that is not what is written in IETF documents (the theory). At 06:40 19-04-2016, Dave Crocker wrote: >Since we are supposed to do our primary work on mailing lists, the >actual model has the simple premise that increasing participation >from a region warrants extending the range of regions we hold >meetings at. That is, to get the IETF to come a region, there first >needs to be more people from that region actively contributing >through working group mailing lists. The North America region is mostly the U.S. Most of the attendees from Asia are from China. If the approach is to "share the pain", IETF meetings would regularly be held in China as that is the case for the U.S. At 06:50 19-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >Yes, of course. But, it is a bit more nuanced than that. I think >it is difficult to get a real sense of the IETF & the excitement & >purpose unless you attend live & get involved. It's difficult to get a sense of the IETF by attending one meeting. There are people who have attended several meetings and did not get involved in active IETF work. Is the main problem the difficulty to get funding to attend IETF meetings and does that have an impact on active IETF work? Regards, -sm From nobody Tue Apr 19 11:03:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AC412E431 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BDZVT002MBsG for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm3-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm3-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.225]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE1D812E430 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:03:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461089001; bh=LrbRg1xY9es0zrTFO0ms8Tdz/grtgmfyPEQbutStXX0=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=G21naYYldlNT5/pI6/qU7oQv8ZazBYjiQbK1oO/kaPbNluyZxViEmTYQNu1Ue8PQpNbGKGSvYozyNWx7YgcJYxbsVGaTcrEwu11Cpkv1dFXvqQiUSgojdaN/SBgcvbv22VLL2sWZCMXW53xWUjtl3cNRPszfo63WW8ivhN/dkZRgLlpDnLvby3AXIZjpYckUhUlXikEkQyeNzbrh7XEq/lrnt1/i6GsSwfrgvzo1VVgBkTORhPpM8PPWCO3O7dNxfRT/FQZoAaptzhrRstPw28FaLV1yPCw6NKd356nFb4S+oSCFUdw8GV5qiiyDps1Sqs8axu+pMIuL9mig8hVtGg== Received: from [98.138.100.115] by nm3.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 18:03:21 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.245] by tm106.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 18:03:21 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1059.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2016 18:03:21 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 746909.76215.bm@omp1059.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 2HEBzvcVM1mpJWiW1zjMBnCRqosXv6QoXJV74uptXz.obKbluFLMSeF.UqrQK4n uRMvlfjZKfxrmGkrrsc4Kfh5Pwbwf2B6WWQNHauraZG5giUPpuHKiJC0M_a9B0co5QzdPV61mxTS DeY7gQ4FP7MDJ8HYYrl_2dCNcrm6JClxa0e8SegblNjQlS0O_a7aU1e6ESZU9hp5ioh1UogO_jPt 1EYO7fogH2.RP_pG.yL1XCIN5k2m_Hi2BcDwWZdDT6hVFUnc_liElDQrbzmDch8NfSYRgelNLnsN _4RCkvN8x95EQXAcWDx3j_bTuo8dA8NMP6bNeh89iYezf3CRkASYrHt_tpm7O_CkPFqummxGmPm7 M1QvdbK4SgkmHyE2Q5hKbWgh102x3jH8ZHjACMfHAgHl49OOmwK01KtmpA8XcXKk0imp8P0QeLWt 41kHZbZQj8YD5iqVT1Ic.nNhwJyruwmtbDMY7Lj5ewhmp0LwiERKj7ZbxSbjAU5y_mPfRXkqA6jV gRskn6Wp.lvrSaO8JGsdn0jXCjYDFBi7OmLZOGtA- Received: by 98.138.105.216; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:03:21 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:03:06 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Ted Lemon , Christian O'Flaherty Message-ID: <876171588.2793946.1461088986149.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2793945_1897585121.1461088986144" Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , ietf Subject: Re: [Diversity] Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:03:25 -0000 ------=_Part_2793945_1897585121.1461088986144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=A0 >It should be pretty easy for the IAD to measure this by comparing the list= of newcomers in Argentina to the list of participants in Berlin, for examp= le. =C2=A0 I am fairly sure that they already do >this, and possibly may ev= en have made presentations about it from time to time at the plenary... :) We have been having a discussion in the Diversity about this. =C2=A0=C2=A0 Some stats that I have for Latin America: 8 newcomers signed up for Internet Draft Review teams 1 newcomer participating in IPPM But, that is only what I know via personal information. =C2=A0I don't know = how to do this automatically. =C2=A0 I suspect that these newcomers are not= likely to get funding to participate in Berlin. =C2=A0But, we can get them= to be active on email lists (as a start). Nalini On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Christian O'Flaherty wrote: > On Apr 18, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Melinda Shore wrot= e: > > On 4/18/16 9:09 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: >> But >> I think these issues should be balanced with the overall benefit >> that the IETF World Tour provides. > > As I've said repeatedly, I don't think the world tour actually > does bring much benefit.=C2=A0 I'm very hopeful that some of the > South Americans who attended their first IETF meeting because > it was held in Buenos Aires will continue to participate (as in: > bring in work and participate in ongoing work, and not as in: sit > in meetings) but historically that has not been the case. BTW=E2=80=A6 if there=E2=80=99s a way to keep track and measure that additi= onal active participation from Latin America I=E2=80=99ll be happy to do it= . I=E2=80=99m open to suggestions on how it can be than. Christian > I also > think that the world tour tends to have the unintended side-effect > of overemphasizing the importance of meetings to our process. > > Also, note that a large number of regulars opted to skip the meeting > in Buenos Aires.=C2=A0 Granted, there are those who might see that as > a benefit. > > Melinda > ------=_Part_2793945_1897585121.1461088986144 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

=
>It should be pretty easy for the IAD to measure this by compari= ng the list of newcomers in Argentina to the list of participants in Berlin= , for example.   I am fairly sure that they already do >this, and p= ossibly may even have made presentations about it from time to time at the = plenary... :)

We have been having a discussion in the Diversity about this.  &nbs= p;

<= /div>
Some sta= ts that I have for Latin America:

8 newcomers signed up for Internet Draft Review team= s

1 newcome= r participating in IPPM

But, that is only what I know via personal information.  = I don't know how to do this automatically.   I suspect that these newc= omers are not likely to get funding to participate in Berlin.  But, we= can get them to be active on email lists (as a start).

Nalini


On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Christian O'Flaherty <christian.oflaherty@gmail.com> wr= ote:

> On Apr 18, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> wrote= :
= >
> On 4/18/16 9:09 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:
>> But
>> I think these issues should be balanced with the overall benefit >> that the IETF World Tour provides.
>
> As I've said repeatedly, I don't think the world tour actually
> does bring much benefit.  I'm very hopeful that some of the
> South Americans who attended their first IETF meeting because
> it was held in Buenos Aires will continue to participate (as in:
> bring in work and participate in ongoing work, and not as in: sit
> in meetings) but historically that has not been the case.


BTW=E2=80=A6 if there=E2=80=99s a way to keep track and measure that= additional active participation from Latin America I=E2=80=99ll be happy t= o do it.

I=E2=80=99m open to suggestions on how it can be than.

Christian




> I also
> think that the world tour tends to have the unintended side-effect
> of overemphasizing the importance of meetings to our process.
>
> Also, note that a large number of regulars opted to skip the meeting > in Buenos Aires.  Granted, there are those who might see that as<= br clear=3D"none"> > a benefit.
>
> Melinda
>




------=_Part_2793945_1897585121.1461088986144-- From nobody Tue Apr 19 12:05:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75ADE12E4A7 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:05:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sBOLAixqFJFO for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22e.google.com (mail-wm0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6282212E045 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id v188so174833619wme.1 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=h6feaiSHryRyrlqUN1VG09UKrt6hANnnpBEeKiN7eKQ=; b=MfZyq1sMigfXpCDsGSuwUwXTV/VTk4ZYEuKAMD0CLIdaQsAKRSTqIC0d2NavyyYRZ1 V2naZ6CMrNHlhHoTDprcNMyAJnJzwTsZvaGqskJ/UnLwv5U8kfL95QV+o1sGeMd5N5Sd cdfcr8EuljRJlkWnBYSLctjO6sSZ2Xjbov/y8XEQ+FUk2Hbqt3XQDKkmbqx45mBxAw6x EROoIYFXAcYnowSd86YxN6L9eX3L0MH8OhPWYu5Og7iAf7LrQ08IZZEw2Xi6fih5IEwB 3o6Qs7tDK3toG6v2Gr9CJv9E8H6eQDWeFhpY+SctD95b1iXZt+DVH1y1I+zN2T05/mRa a0Gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=h6feaiSHryRyrlqUN1VG09UKrt6hANnnpBEeKiN7eKQ=; b=DWBFfAwFiwL/aBWPgZcyVvNSex3ZthUL8ugZzZ1vgduhovoXTk/1Pe2j71erA6BAPM 3IphbQpr4JcWmWzNzCUA2tRJGOQ8m1Adia3NQIIK6oQDILsUWH7TLNg/SxnOjYR66+5P G1BZNEh72q8fNhQPps4fEwSXgXGq5Up7Rl6xhA912/i6jMxQ1cMOGbW38le8n8uSggGv /I6Iwq7M/czdexpfHeWWhjG32Ll64opyhd97oPeIz8ia0bnEo10W0DzsL6wg/aEOCv1w itf9BBIhTPFagnkdBHmv/uZu1cQQdMY5xxjqL5v6YtzvcBYXtK1WlDzjLa+RCUEm38kd yzdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FX87b3wgU7lAZ3N/gqVt0mmrSoY4aQQo4RFTjl2dI7wNjKx/WfC5E2T+2YJ46YKTHSnavIr0/CFt5tNJg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.192.106 with SMTP id hf10mr4563469wjc.134.1461092731370; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.133.99 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:05:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160419082036.0eadf038@resistor.net> References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20160419082036.0eadf038@resistor.net> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:35:31 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: SM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Fernando Gont , Nalini Elkins , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 19:05:46 -0000 On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:03 PM, SM wrote: > At 06:50 19-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >> >> Yes, of course. But, it is a bit more nuanced than that. I think it is >> difficult to get a real sense of the IETF & the excitement & purpose unless >> you attend live & get involved. > > It's difficult to get a sense of the IETF by attending one meeting. There > are people who have attended several meetings and did not get involved in > active IETF work. > > Is the main problem the difficulty to get funding to attend IETF meetings > and does that have an impact on active IETF work? Yes & No. YMMV everyone is different. Some people are very happy contributing remotely and physical meetings might not matter as much to them. But this subset is small. I would guess for most people a physical meeting still helps a lot. On the other end of the spectrum there might be people who have come multiple times and have not contributed much or are not as active. I think it is getting easier to contribute (for someone who wants to), thanks to meetecho, remote presentations, wider diversity of meeting venues (due to 1:1:1:1*) and various trainings and mentoring that is available now. But all said and done IMHO, being at a meeting still is a quite different experience (due to physical presence, bumping into people - serendipity, focus and facetime) -- Vinayak From nobody Tue Apr 19 13:31:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E7DD12E1C1 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=lx1rLBDN; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=hGE+jIz6 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K11pG3Phpcm8 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A96712D615 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3JKVNft013599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1461097893; x=1461184293; bh=lXSVxw4+/U3WrfSXLQyXtIa3bOmsCuEzLjnaeT2l6tw=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=lx1rLBDN69o+FTRebRsAlm0y9frFbAV3LORZpK3wGtm7QNP0O3BxO9A3dHTqyUc0y Qqm7gXlTUL3usZKcgEUmxKVeQyz1+pt45H3ZA8YwI0aMU0Ogqwh0qniKGFcFgihAoY CAhmx85+rGiHIKBz9VwTLyadXA0bDGiRPrnFAvNY= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1461097893; x=1461184293; i=@resistor.net; bh=lXSVxw4+/U3WrfSXLQyXtIa3bOmsCuEzLjnaeT2l6tw=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=hGE+jIz68s/F3nA2+RLALNMbFJ7erqLAuPQqxFEPKTds0ZWlKzui/XaICfpITISFI ulRy2CbZLubN0SStu7E6Opp3Uo1qYNwabUoszWt392rI9LH0Pklt2vzu/0n+P9JwXY JplO+L921YwMFoRD66e+NVljKdDewXD3FyJksbc4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160419123834.10702b38@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:31:10 -0700 To: Vinayak Hegde , diversity@ietf.org From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20160419082036.0eadf038@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: Fernando Gont , Nalini Elkins , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:31:47 -0000 Hi Vinayak, At 12:05 19-04-2016, Vinayak Hegde wrote: >Yes & No. YMMV everyone is different. Some people are very happy >contributing remotely and physical meetings might not matter as much >to them. But this subset is small. I would guess for most people a >physical meeting still helps a lot. On the other end of the spectrum >there might be people who have come multiple times and have not >contributed much or are not as active. > >I think it is getting easier to contribute (for someone who wants to), >thanks to meetecho, remote presentations, wider diversity of meeting >venues (due to 1:1:1:1*) and various trainings and mentoring that is >available now. But all said and done IMHO, being at a meeting still is >a quite different experience (due to physical presence, bumping into >people - serendipity, focus and facetime) I read your answer as meaning that non-participation from developing countries (or non-participation from people who do not work for large companies) does not affect IETF work. A meeting in, for example, Europe, allows a participant in Europe to present his/her draft. I don't know whether that (type of) participant sees remote presentation facilities (meetecho) as a workable alternative. I could not find any first-hand information about Africa, Asia or South America. Please comment if you are residing in any of those regions and you tried to attend an IETF meeting to present a draft. I agree that for most people, attending a meeting in person helps a lot. There is the funding problem which affects people from developing countries. If, for example, we compare this with the ITU, national governments provide funding to attend ITU meetings. Regards, -sm From nobody Tue Apr 19 13:43:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43FC12E03D for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id otXfv9W55vVj for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8E3612DD1B for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id n3so49916111wmn.0 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=qrbzQhte/ewRoAZwSu/pXH5r8LBwGOMStUN4emFz4AI=; b=Mw5GbDkjofEAxveYP0bjIGhiyRGYaQjFEiJqRHpqPTscHSQoD1xwd+l4P8KCV9O5kG QLQx2t/9h457zXdtB1w4XqHTrRjROSTaSh/IoytXzBhZWE6p0VGbp5/awE8Uszdwtv8a 9Hs36FjwK0HqCiadFN+tUSupCgHapt4Qh23RYcL1P0qGJ0WaNN89osbIrQ/FYGzS2CGg iyFwJVG+13zMIxsQkoBjNDIbftVI6ndYq3slFMql673mQYz7EzmmemlsMmb31grhAr3l zAq7pGoN2dIzW1y3DdyvjURyCnrujw9oVbG9kuP1mxe3gMSTgoSX8YkHOTi//tLWn9NE 7n/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=qrbzQhte/ewRoAZwSu/pXH5r8LBwGOMStUN4emFz4AI=; b=mVIWxVqad8DCemUGzL4nsxDcixIykfjhv9a7PazSrbxwylchW8KBQdY9q3GMHZsvmd lBI2W33iBNFaswv1+ZD1+AUb6OBM059U00mCFaJy5zLH+BEgQJ5DouXUk5RHp2XmxRmX JmrkP4vrM37VK61rg4GoGUGP15ZvQw5vrhN87Sg5MClJtBdAoLfdRc5qEPhuT4CxOUZx zDMI//ZYLzJZ5xVq/rPIXS4emuZXOZX5LcRrAcmFYIYoSjvGrrXyPLWQ6dQkkMvD+UE9 knQqlG8drDY7A8gqvYdct51hrlGBBTQ+bRILW8nhTCekwAKsSPFE2YdjyqEfRBDEKjyv XsQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVo8DixmudIYaeBmQ7UFa2I2DFD9E9pGuO+OjwdiNkqhSfzTUZrnvYGNbzYNd3/hSkQm/OvC6Yww36HhQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.192.106 with SMTP id hf10mr4860749wjc.134.1461098625461; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.133.99 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:43:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160419123834.10702b38@resistor.net> References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20160419082036.0eadf038@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20160419123834.10702b38@resistor.net> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 02:13:45 +0530 Message-ID: From: Vinayak Hegde To: SM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , Nalini Elkins , Dave Crocker , Fernando Gont Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:43:50 -0000 Replies inline On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:01 AM, SM wrote: > Hi Vinayak, > At 12:05 19-04-2016, Vinayak Hegde wrote: >> >> Yes & No. YMMV everyone is different. Some people are very happy >> contributing remotely and physical meetings might not matter as much >> to them. But this subset is small. I would guess for most people a >> physical meeting still helps a lot. On the other end of the spectrum >> there might be people who have come multiple times and have not >> contributed much or are not as active. >> >> I think it is getting easier to contribute (for someone who wants to), >> thanks to meetecho, remote presentations, wider diversity of meeting >> venues (due to 1:1:1:1*) and various trainings and mentoring that is >> available now. But all said and done IMHO, being at a meeting still is >> a quite different experience (due to physical presence, bumping into >> people - serendipity, focus and facetime) > > I read your answer as meaning that non-participation from developing > countries (or non-participation from people who do not work for large > companies) does not affect IETF work. Nope I am arguing the opposite. But I am saying it is becoming easier to contribute remotely (if you have attended a few meetings or sometimes even if you haven't). > A meeting in, for example, Europe, allows a participant in Europe to present > his/her draft. I don't know whether that (type of) participant sees remote > presentation facilities (meetecho) as a workable alternative. I could not > find any first-hand information about Africa, Asia or South America. Please > comment if you are residing in any of those regions and you tried to attend > an IETF meeting to present a draft. Yes. I reside in India (Asia). Attending a meeting does help you present and progress your draft. In Yokohama - IETF 94, I tried presenting remotely and the experience was unexpectedly good. Yes. Attending meeting is always preferable and funding is a challenge. > I agree that for most people, attending a meeting in person helps a lot. > There is the funding problem which affects people from developing countries. > If, for example, we compare this with the ITU, national governments provide > funding to attend ITU meetings. Yeah. -- Vinayak From nobody Tue Apr 19 23:51:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26A212E245 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 23:51:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=dlI9Kxcf; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=vipsh6fr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wi3DZAF-tr2e for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 23:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D7912E19E for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2016 23:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3K6plc5013817 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Apr 2016 23:51:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1461135113; x=1461221513; bh=B/2iNfbzevv5tlLCwHvUK8EFupXJko5mlym3m6jBXP0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=dlI9Kxcf0ma/vhpAYrZPz4Z+1Ec3kk4WRRaJjHOVe8pJTZV+UAQn7+ncehLlTvoeD 82+oC+7lSHTRUOudYm1anHS8+UHpQCQouH0RLS2GUxvZiVMkvPHsNwGZTG6QATuplO 0MoLGwyyGqVeqbW+CyvJsoyzXaf+kAYwwaMjzvok= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1461135113; x=1461221513; i=@resistor.net; bh=B/2iNfbzevv5tlLCwHvUK8EFupXJko5mlym3m6jBXP0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=vipsh6frKc8dws3129INt6/FXhlbZTCxrLHjMMAwIpjSzvlYgyNcwdnWq00Uhp+97 7MPXHXZNSI1J7ztxc4iguY0olO+EBi/GRGUOqLKW6UemThvE3+tGWfaGYYe7lutPva ll2606m0GCDDJkbrr1/CxuQIvsa5hSMVeMDVEPfk= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160419174939.0e7c4fd0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:37:36 -0700 To: Vinayak Hegde , diversity@ietf.org From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20160419082036.0eadf038@resistor.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20160419123834.10702b38@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 06:51:58 -0000 Hi Vinayak, At 13:43 19-04-2016, Vinayak Hegde wrote: >Nope I am arguing the opposite. But I am saying it is becoming easier >to contribute remotely (if you have attended a few meetings or sometimes >even if you haven't). Sorry about that. If I were to say: non-participation from developing countries (or non-participation from people who do not work for large companies) affects IETF work, I would be asked how that affects IETF work. Regards, -sm From nobody Wed Apr 20 07:59:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B23312B006 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4hVJeoRHey0b for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22d.google.com (mail-qg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0B2512D5C9 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id f74so26683299qge.2 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:59:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=5GgA6D1UKt08DZUJtiPDPr3F+hf2lXePNU8OSZJS0vM=; b=RbbTYQNX/Vbf7nznIhQGGM7e7rcT8M9lDR2wDB64hTOQM4yyIsFjNgzdj+gKX6/3If +1nBZtugzPrO41H8WY0CvbMBIBjX7jZFlO+DywsHLktJ6q9pwSU4BpsRGPsLAAAS7MDh 2We7B85huBgXIzIzO5toYEM5b/IiiBtNHCq2mFLyR8wBj75gLidMupzqp4RrQzmWZCN2 C5FpCEcJX2WMNRFVsPJWq2oJtsl3DTfajMCnx+v/UBEDWiJSGFIZRAfU+wYnrNqLpGkg l+V/fjbMJ/98zvShDfzePaOFy0XRvGJulrMz8DcsG8OmNRrfvSPYEmLmkTtlscP4QbF/ /ArA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=5GgA6D1UKt08DZUJtiPDPr3F+hf2lXePNU8OSZJS0vM=; b=dXCx6wXps5VWkGiXaQDshiizyQPdIBKhZYX2bQyvufdN285xokRi5z6jW0VaZpBEXu EdTOkb1QHyjLNduulZQYepEB7Ng1wqSeqww2zieW+Njdql9q/8VZha6HXWuJFV8vw5Sh Ra+WBsbApJXUhFtQWe9U0Lj+9en9i0N1Z5s62UH+NyQACG+FsR+eojmmS6aYpFC6tU9n 5qdOEJW84w8EWhkC5zc3SIPw5R4KavxbYm81VJaRKv6NerU8SPioss/UHx7LDVbmlUXf D65HrTJ/EhkhjPdlWEEdIKO00l2Nx4jHO8l9SBbJy1TpIkdQr9on/kdVkW0euhxeLC2K raiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWvEx1xFiv50Bkfuf7jqZWMwDTT+wN2I33fjCp8dqRa7GeYnqdrNYlsgI35cGWxHIpk9SMYrd1v1M0SGw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.35.115 with SMTP id m106mr11129447qgm.13.1461164359160; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.43.131 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:59:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 16:59:19 +0200 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: SM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c038e0961f920530ebd6b4 Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:59:26 -0000 --001a11c038e0961f920530ebd6b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi SM, Thanks for your email. My opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder on these issues. IMHO, the problem is mainly that mentors are still in few numbers, and the IETF needs to look into the IETF culture or better to say their WG culture. I recommend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so the mentor MUST not be the Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a participant in that WG (better if he/she was a Chair before). AB On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM wrote: > Hi Nalini, > At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > >> I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work >> before from other regions because there was no structured way to start >> participating and language insensitivity. (BTW, there is a new member of >> the Mentoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will >> translate the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) >> > > Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. > The IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about > that. A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the > meeting policy: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf > > There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people > from other regions to start participating except for the meeting training > sessions. A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a higher > learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. > > The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there > has not been more active participation before. > > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > --001a11c038e0961f920530ebd6b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi SM,

Thanks for your email. My op= inion is that the IETF needs to work harder on these issues. IMHO, the prob= lem is mainly that mentors are still in few numbers, and the IETF needs to = look into the IETF culture or better to say their WG culture. I recommend w= e need one or two mentors for each WG, so the mentor MUST not be the Chair = or AD, the mentor MUST be a participant in that WG (better if he/she was a = Chair before).

AB

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM <sm@resistor.net= > wrote:
Hi Nalini,
At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.=C2=A0 (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.)

Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.=C2= =A0 A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https://www.ietf.org= /mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf

There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train peop= le from other regions to start participating except for the meeting trainin= g sessions.=C2=A0 A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a= higher learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia.

The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there h= as not been more active participation before.

Regards,
-sm
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diversity@ietf.org<= /a>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity

--001a11c038e0961f920530ebd6b4-- From nobody Wed Apr 20 08:04:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F4E12DEEB; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y4YAlmPYJD4y; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5633212DA6D; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id x7so15186636qkd.3; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:04:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=r6VHtL7A0COvUJhKvrC3jJsVBsSP29h5G5ntnmLk1Gk=; b=aSndT4zjeP/fp9mJusVJJwZdWxJVuRik2sQ2T9vZGuOFlLfxJMvQXHuta62toQ6niY QP7rsNeHvkcwjy9yMe3a2wL/3Tqp1p673/JxXemOa9zXcKOcaKFIVWSM+kVIbRXyYWYI TjGzT9p1JdQZ9KIi6dcUcsDzATHUU3v8tKV1OfHJAN4dYSTa1UL5lCTd0kac7EmAoB4f 9k334ijvpM/t7Aon6TkQmdKVRPSKp2s7O+xL2waQS6BE+dbibXhzsz2t/75ejKJEhigh vEmcsxgiBC+251jMRLxYRvszGLLQf9hG+U0NUkpvMiV3Co3tZIn5nyBBlrDA6FTSyQMW S70A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=r6VHtL7A0COvUJhKvrC3jJsVBsSP29h5G5ntnmLk1Gk=; b=hIx2c8lJlpj8wxHE0LhT9HP5JmbaFdGr1gH5yRrVgoaVKVQeAdU7a/x1wVxRmYQpan ZPDYQL+mUPnpKlERjUcMsMzyDhaHyr6CGC7w44fLolTX867CvOkEj64uDkqbWqG1CmM6 6Wqoh3N4VYhCUw7HUs+4OSfKowGCW26t42oeMrr99KIDAotvjrdIoVJSDFPus45XC+Fb PtJztR1oENMNXzom7KTF/GxbyRP98/R+AJ/2t14+wd7oC5i2yCi3MrJDaxUOI/Aed7Pu FIvjANyizfon1R9V8P6yD2Vdx6Y6tTn2FPa+GpcJeF7LNVVTOKQxjOYbnhVcZ+vKxvsW JD0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXk0mfV2lg99dMASDNU7aK9+Is7R0QyOdWVydSks123xIXeQ9tTvqniWCu3tdLBXhyz2+W3NAyQjlyTag== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.80.86 with SMTP id e83mr11887358qkb.91.1461164692427; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.43.131 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:04:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1010651043.2778485.1461084758891.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <57165F18.4030404@dcrocker.net> <1010651043.2778485.1461084758891.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 17:04:52 +0200 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114a6a96735c470530ebea10 Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Subject: Re: [Diversity] early mentoring for /any/ draft (was - Re: [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:04:56 -0000 --001a114a6a96735c470530ebea10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Nalini, I agree with you, but I will add that there are many people want to participate in IDs but there are problems with some of the WG culture, no secret. So The is a language of argument and discussion that new people may not get use to, which is needed in such WG culture. AB On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:52 PM, wrote: > > > > On 4/19/2016 9:35 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > >> think you are right on all counts. I have seen some very horrible prose > >> from native English speakers. > >> > >> But, the mentoring program is not just for non-native English speakers. > >> It is for all IETFers. > > >There is an appealingly subversive possibility in this: Getting > >"outside" people to review work much earlier in its lifecycle. We have > >long lamented the fact that we do reviews late in the cycle, after a > >great deal of energy has been expended and people have become > >entrenched. Getting others to review the work early it its development > >could do considerably more than improve its writing... > > Indeed. > > The mentoring initiative I want to start after Berlin is for people to > solicit a team to work with them to co-author a draft. That is, person x > has an idea (but no draft), he / she gets 5 minutes & 2 foils to present > the idea in a webinar. Others on the webinar ask questions for another > 5-10 minutes. Then, if people would like, they can tell person x that > they would be interested in being a co-author. > > If person x gets no takers as far as co-authors, he / she may wish to draw > the inevitable conclusion. > > Of course, if person x feels that they have not fairly represented > themselves, they can have a second chance. But, after the second time, and > still no takers .... > > BTW, no third chances. > > Nalini > > > > > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > --001a114a6a96735c470530ebea10 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Nalini,

I agree with you, but I = will add that there are many people want to participate in IDs but there ar= e problems with some of the WG culture, no secret. So The is a language of = argument and discussion that new people may not get use to, which is needed= in such WG culture.

AB
On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:52 PM, <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote:



On 4/19/2016 9:35 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com = wrote:
>> think you are right on all counts.=C2=A0 = I have seen some very horrible prose
>> from native= English speakers.
>>
>> Bu= t, the mentoring program is not just for non-native English speakers.
>>=C2=A0 It is for all IETFers.

>There is an appealingly subversiv= e possibility in this:=C2=A0 Getting
>"outside&q= uot; people to review work much earlier in its lifecycle.=C2=A0 We have >long lamented the fact that we do reviews late in the c= ycle, after a
>great deal of energy has been expended= and people have become
>entrenched.=C2=A0 Getting ot= hers to review the work early it its development
>cou= ld do considerably more than improve its writing...

Indeed.

The mento= ring initiative I want to start after Berlin is for people to solicit a tea= m to work with them to co-author a draft.=C2=A0 That is, person x has an id= ea (but no draft), he / she gets 5 minutes & 2 foils to present the ide= a in a webinar. =C2=A0 Others on the webinar ask questions for another 5-10= minutes. =C2=A0 Then, if people would like, they can tell person x that th= ey would be interested in being a co-author.

If person x gets no takers as far as co-authors, he / sh= e may wish to draw the inevitable conclusion.

Of course, if person x feels that they have not fairly = represented themselves, they can have a second chance.=C2=A0 But, after the= second time, and still no takers ....

BTW, no third chances.

Nalini




_________= ______________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity

--001a114a6a96735c470530ebea10-- From nobody Wed Apr 20 08:07:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA5C12E3C8 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:07:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1cl1CLkxy0BM for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm23-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm23-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.116]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D482912E2B2 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:07:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461164820; bh=DfKr463jBou6rEp0nxAqjvt8NUbmgQl6w2E4klJ+598=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=bDzbi1fGlAhl45k16sF7c6syxKF3AUwCMehKwNKBc2QlOEYNKwnBnxaB1tjPsu6h72spAsVpu9bSGt1TE6DfnHRRV83DCpQa5gH9PAnkZrRx4BXpdt5+7AVnbFMnQXnGX8IY4mWhSbsr/j/SQUlooo7By6TXQyOyRRoSKbbmRKnnmEmPPWw+9sMeswwPYU9lc9pqBv5+lvNqMiO32kwcu6t8ZiVdHGGz93w8v9wgVcqWATiv5GUQEilibd4cX6DFaUBtPvH3DYaNqlBI+Ujul3MD4m1gq3zxo3yGIDSBGGfsRz13Tz7ib6Qx+hvAVwY2bupl6MNyd9UomjSG6nHYHg== Received: from [98.138.101.130] by nm23.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:07:00 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.164] by tm18.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:07:00 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1065.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:07:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 161924.43141.bm@omp1065.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: wEJcDOIVM1mOOE3.u0aR70ZYPZFkM07WaFg.7KFhMFfedkk_xtCeMgT2DWMLSRS PG5pT3EDVgnPDKfEsp6lVQv52zjdMJxhOQo7ea5sJgpYxBORtWt_I2X1g9wFL7v_2CB__XFs94qU 37SblnEAAJaMAo.8CG4iFf8GyWxweImatBLahoXTJLtcnkh4hCIVk2FgUyOXRDMqfP7EocF.bYzh G3dtz544IMEF0W4_fjLXSPSytFHjgOnXWT8zFDqVcYApAcwF64RLDcyIqJ57ihAx46C.umQ1D9uD M.83eqT5XnsHwtCv7SQW_pn6IctQgnRjegYxg78DL.o076D9cYjVn_EbE_dR1IGtywhzAhTGIWh5 ztNdry5xuKzxqLbE.lSP.13qULf95ZImHq4lgu_xD7WhN1hpJdioQuQ8X313PFQ7D_ncgmSJjdp6 909Gblio3aTVt26ey1QVLPPl_Q3K7G9bD2b_fAo1WniJ.q7vWKqu._TjPbq0Q3l6DXlXIduqjgIe OZoTqwMPx2fZ3q3H80sJoCeLFjyrtui6H Received: by 98.138.105.223; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:06:59 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:06:58 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Abdussalam Baryun , SM Message-ID: <1856471603.3379727.1461164818950.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3379726_324697370.1461164818947" Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:07:03 -0000 ------=_Part_3379726_324697370.1461164818947 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Thanks for your email. My opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder on= these issues. IMHO, the problem is mainly that mentors are still in few nu= mbers, and the IETF needs to look >into the IETF culture or better to say t= heir WG culture. I recommend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so the= mentor MUST not be the Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a >participant in t= hat WG (better if he/she was a Chair before). =C2=A0Abdussalam, thanks for your comments. =C2=A0As head of the IETF Mento= ring Team, we actually have quite a few mentors. =C2=A0 In fact, far more m= entors than mentees. =C2=A0Also, if we need mentors from a particular Worki= ng Group, I ask the WG and people are very generous with their time. =C2=A0= (For which, I thank everyone!) Are you speaking of remote mentors or regional mentors? What would you like the mentoring program to do? =C2=A0 We welcome suggesti= ons! =C2=A0 NaliniIETF Mentoring Team On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM wrote: Hi Nalini, At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.=C2=A0 (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.=C2= =A0 A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_= 5.pdf There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people f= rom other regions to start participating except for the meeting training se= ssions.=C2=A0 A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a hig= her learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there h= as not been more active participation before. Regards, -sm=20 _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity ------=_Part_3379726_324697370.1461164818947 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1461164512430_6962">>Thanks for your email. = My opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder on these issues. IMHO, the= problem is mainly that mentors are still in few numbers, and the IETF need= s to look >into the IETF culture or better to say their WG culture. I re= commend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so the mentor MUST not be t= he Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a >participant in that WG (better if = he/she was a Chair before).
 
Abdussalam, thanks for your com= ments.  As head of the IETF Mentoring Team, we actually have quite a f= ew mentors.   In fact, far more mentors than mentees.  Also, if w= e need mentors from a particular Working Group, I ask the WG and people are= very generous with their time.   (For which, I thank everyone!)
=

Are you speaking o= f remote mentors or regional mentors?

What would you like the mentoring program to do? &= nbsp; We welcome suggestions!  

Nalini
IETF Mentoring Team



On Tue, Apr 19, 201= 6 at 10:58 AM, SM <sm@resistor.net> wrote:
Hi Nalini,
At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.c= om wrote:
I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.  (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.)

Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.&nb= sp; A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https:/= /www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf

There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people f= rom other regions to start participating except for the meeting training se= ssions.  A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a hig= her learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia.

The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there h= as not been more active participation before.

Regards,
-sm
_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/di= versity



------=_Part_3379726_324697370.1461164818947-- From nobody Wed Apr 20 08:20:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22E612F041 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:20:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kJG9kl_APxyO for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22b.google.com (mail-qg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 872B812EF7B for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id v14so30538127qge.0 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:16:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=oDYpG4lLyrhJQQNSmdDfBfDIhfF4hB95spXs0emieHI=; b=egbg0HNx4d1nFqjVTwhXahuTnErj3aT6mgKKf3pJr/q5cp3pi+MC/cwgceyJHY7NTA Vd5+THBDdYvFEdtz7YnnL1NoML2irZL/g8X/qaIZFF0HhS8mcDSlmonSkRpYT6ZE9nbr sGy1KHit57hQRnps89S/QW7pIFAz4phBXucZBilgoSj+0hQkd1uhyWTb0PS46a8da9/7 dgXIY+v8wuXzNPy5ScHvka80D2He6Z+92QuEKGkUmvUel5KhTCAX4FvdhcemshGAvYsL dIFPLKHgOx2v8Ll72wZFYQse3IQg0uG5HmSUJhyYSE5z9rn/RA96MSURoJY/x/qyDQ4m gsAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=oDYpG4lLyrhJQQNSmdDfBfDIhfF4hB95spXs0emieHI=; b=CkRIb6B7ivUrnmrWP74FvPyQhL8rAGPKexhlCSHFi2RjmbZVK0zzoAZZS8YC7mjGSv S7LFCNwS7V/38AVpfSE/tdq6JuUEpzGPV1xMk27DjdiGKB6pIbMgRBWdVvvG4R2wVVf7 XANxDmiEOIQv0crTbpYioX5tcf5QqAamBuWg7sk6SFYXjUJsT6YQakUhLZimWvgO+VMQ c1tFCqKgLB2bpaetjO2V9/OzHNUM04hMF6GGtSfmwfpHeZJqQb5bvf3TAW5EMQ9sJhcc jauFXocT4HSvbw4QIwejkFSfcFpRM/0Pn9dvSjvzHJhWFMqXmph8proQ2s7EL0w/0iO1 QaZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWGQU1v6nS5T/BaCcLJPffBeerDgh5Us1KmFakFzPwROAEP8go6snST1PSBXOP+2pm9r+ny04B54qAJGg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.28.36 with SMTP id 33mr11591376qgy.47.1461165373678; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.43.131 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:16:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1856471603.3379727.1461164818950.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1856471603.3379727.1461164818950.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 17:16:13 +0200 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a9a640e70a90530ec13bd Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , SM , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:20:40 -0000 --001a113a9a640e70a90530ec13bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Nalini Thanks alot. I had a great mentor (mentoring remotely) in 2013. I had started in IETF discussions remotely from about 4 or 5 years (before the mentoring program) it was a disaster but I kept good discussions. The problem I faced was that I needed a mentor that is a participant in the WG I am working in and I found that the best practical solution is having mentors per WG not per region. However, I am happy we have mentors per region which is good and I will work that we have mentors per WG as well. I hope the IETF general area looks into this issue as well. Best Regards, AB On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:06 PM, wrote: > > > > >Thanks for your email. My opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder > on these issues. IMHO, the problem is mainly that mentors are still in few > numbers, and the IETF needs to look >into the IETF culture or better to say > their WG culture. I recommend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so > the mentor MUST not be the Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a >participant > in that WG (better if he/she was a Chair before). > > Abdussalam, thanks for your comments. As head of the IETF Mentoring Team, > we actually have quite a few mentors. In fact, far more mentors than > mentees. Also, if we need mentors from a particular Working Group, I ask > the WG and people are very generous with their time. (For which, I thank > everyone!) > > Are you speaking of remote mentors or regional mentors? > > What would you like the mentoring program to do? We welcome suggestions! > > > Nalini > IETF Mentoring Team > > > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM wrote: > > Hi Nalini, > At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > > I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work > before from other regions because there was no structured way to start > participating and language insensitivity. (BTW, there is a new member of > the Mentoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will > translate the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) > > > Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. > The IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about > that. A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the > meeting policy: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf > > There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people > from other regions to start participating except for the meeting training > sessions. A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a higher > learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. > > The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there > has not been more active participation before. > > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > > > > --001a113a9a640e70a90530ec13bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Nalini

Thanks alot. I had a= great mentor (mentoring remotely) in 2013. I had started in IETF discussio= ns remotely from about 4 or 5 years (before the mentoring program) it was a= disaster but I kept good discussions. The problem I faced was that I neede= d a mentor that is a participant in the WG I am working in and I found that= the best practical solution is having mentors per WG not per region. Howev= er, I am happy we have mentors per region which is good and I will work tha= t we have mentors per WG as well. I hope the IETF general area looks into t= his issue as well.

Best Regards,

AB

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016= at 5:06 PM, <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote:



>Thanks= for your email. My opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder on these = issues. IMHO, the problem is mainly that mentors are still in few numbers, = and the IETF needs to look >into the IETF culture or better to say their= WG culture. I recommend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so the men= tor MUST not be the Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a >participant in th= at WG (better if he/she was a Chair before).
=C2=A0
=
Abdussalam, thanks for your comments.=C2=A0 As head= of the IETF Mentoring Team, we actually have quite a few mentors. =C2=A0 I= n fact, far more mentors than mentees.=C2=A0 Also, if we need mentors from = a particular Working Group, I ask the WG and people are very generous with = their time. =C2=A0 (For which, I thank everyone!)
Are you speaking of remote mentors or regional ment= ors?

What would you like t= he mentoring program to do? =C2=A0 We welcome suggestions! =C2=A0

Nalini
IETF M= entoring Team



On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM <sm@resistor.net> wrote:
Hi Nalini,
At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.=C2=A0 (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.)

Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.=C2= =A0 A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https:/= /www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf

There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train peop= le from other regions to start participating except for the meeting trainin= g sessions.=C2=A0 A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a= higher learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia.

The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there h= as not been more active participation before.

Regards,
-sm
_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/di= versity



--001a113a9a640e70a90530ec13bd-- From nobody Wed Apr 20 08:21:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321FF12F048 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:21:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KbRP24fEyxlX for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm26-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm26-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F95212EF8D for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:16:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461165387; bh=x2rqQ1kiJhr89jRIy115ozSEE9UkdKp37ZGATxW0yNw=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=UR6ErmDSNguN3q7anx1GLumfDvcwYdxh2jPzkwtSyPI9J0XAg+ixX3JUGc68dEUVIYt4L1zhgfwVkqLZAwXIdxRfqqwvDUTq1xwBTw/OotxMnS2xKXYGrzoMZPsycgcTLcMqroOfL20nfIrlfvn42yHvTI7kVIPYVIkcgB+QMte5xnC3ktScYCrD/HvpzIGq2/oMcTaykwFQM749Bi86xTvaoiG8V2FzVlV860PyQMcdNnbtQELGmEJEGY/AGtSFLm5NEULv7u1hce4O0P208VEdHBO2irgX+nspsDXanUtutyNNwT/mrwTYB8JjM1NOh2ufyyQXu8Pqk1EBUfBnGA== Received: from [98.138.101.128] by nm26.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:16:27 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.232] by tm16.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:16:27 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1032.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:16:27 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 644200.51627.bm@omp1032.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 4qJMx3QVM1lht.OWWIgmL4ekKq4Ijv76tbCyTMUbz5rkonSptVydLSbYcgIJZHV rWewcCDJP39V0AwuP7sN.G6abhZbbQJfGwVDTu07yW0R37tPtAHM8.ajZ1cB_U8rZ085QU6aUFJ_ tByngGOt61doAIDWl9EJ5LRwD8G3mkyq3IAgHliEs7xiJTXqKrEJ.EIQT5SUjgzZaHwThlt41.Tt 3dSSh1hX7O8HuSAaFCMI.c_q7rzd.eGaimlngZcWTmEyBZUU3pJxFWAAoE._x2F36cD1qajxc6z0 XFSfNdYMh.SJMhV6SdG3TqGqoDnS7vUDTFNz1xgeBOcuTa5FT9oovLpVzR7qVMJ7u9IUakctIoA2 A4bYvocx7xDkhlc7ZKygfYcz13oN8coLANXQF9mMlQdOCFUguBffAdaVEAcw_lUiB1qrTDlk1BjQ 329icuPbHC7FNq5Z4CxhWHxETd4rodHXg68aNaIFlMTBHAIPXx6J5K6keHs2WqwYI62Ae7.oXkJj vLWOOXN19cEjcGbc6hXnPxOw1d0ZOi5aJ Received: by 98.138.105.207; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:16:27 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:16:26 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Abdussalam Baryun Message-ID: <205095632.3364415.1461165386596.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "diversity@ietf.org" , "mentoring-coordinators@ietf.org" , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Subject: Re: [Diversity] early mentoring for /any/ draft (was - Re: [Mentoring-coordinators] Participation in active IETF work) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:21:40 -0000 >I agree with you, but I will add that there are many people want to participate in IDs but there are problems with some of the WG culture, no secret. So The is a language of argument and >discussion that new people may not get use to, which is needed in such WG culture. Abdussalam, Yes, the IETF culture has its strengths and drawbacks. In fact, you may want to take a look at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-ietf-unwritten-rules-values/ This is a presentation that we have started doing for new people at IETF. It seems to have been quite well received. So far, I am talking to people from Japan, China, & Latin America to translate into their own languages. You may also wish to look at: https://www.ietf.org/tao.html I suspect that the discussion style of "very frank" feedback may be what you are referring to? Am I correct? If I might, the goal of discussions is to have the best engineering solution come out. And, I know sometimes people get passionate in their arguments and give feedback maybe a bit more directly than is considered normal in a number of cultures. In my opinion, passion is good. We need to care and care a LOT about what we do. That is what will make the work good. Definitely, people need to be kinder and more sensitive in how they give their feedback. Is this what you are talking about? I wonder if we should have mentoring workshops on "How to Give and Receive Feedback". Just trying to get from you what you are thinking. Nalini On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:52 PM, wrote: > > > > >On 4/19/2016 9:35 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >>> think you are right on all counts. I have seen some very horrible prose >>> from native English speakers. >>> >>> But, the mentoring program is not just for non-native English speakers. >>> It is for all IETFers. > >>There is an appealingly subversive possibility in this: Getting >>"outside" people to review work much earlier in its lifecycle. We have >>long lamented the fact that we do reviews late in the cycle, after a >>great deal of energy has been expended and people have become >>entrenched. Getting others to review the work early it its development >>could do considerably more than improve its writing... > >Indeed. > > >The mentoring initiative I want to start after Berlin is for people to solicit a team to work with them to co-author a draft. That is, person x has an idea (but no draft), he / she gets 5 minutes & 2 foils to present the idea in a webinar. Others on the webinar ask questions for another 5-10 minutes. Then, if people would like, they can tell person x that they would be interested in being a co-author. > > >If person x gets no takers as far as co-authors, he / she may wish to draw the inevitable conclusion. > > >Of course, if person x feels that they have not fairly represented themselves, they can have a second chance. But, after the second time, and still no takers .... > > >BTW, no third chances. > > >Nalini > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >diversity mailing list >diversity@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity From nobody Wed Apr 20 08:36:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394FE12E480 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:36:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Si_gsx7_JVjJ for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm24-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm24-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.90.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FFE712EF92 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:22:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461165745; bh=VwhIA9XuJLulLtjlMsXqSW+NFF75IVjEhxM+GyXcasE=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=PLWSehofFquJ0RelnbthRSJOZENBLkFQ8UsKCP5foagw5cJ8JqKF7m9bTrmYME6mk6HfxVVutWUo66r7SG9VQVIE2ioFLUijwICJ8bNPqmpnHRJwgg0cR5osmn4ORCFl0E+rrlygH9Jgfg+9vlKlOGDRAW3vPQgd4ht6KqYRqU4OIyvk8MeOLd1FMajhSlmOMhXvjjRGGdFLmcAMQm9Hjq5NzQZamTi7MPEv41LUxSKjs2xiATHQI37ZmFwQP62jX9HnVT1lADGekumRAAgmH4y/ZgvNBvo0pm7qOdHZiYhcslUHqQykTEp0vocZxYJB+GV3XUyZSX2BjeckUilKjQ== Received: from [98.138.101.131] by nm24.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:22:25 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.197] by tm19.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:21:25 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1055.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:21:25 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 524640.51974.bm@omp1055.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: jDjMPksVM1lcH8rTAb8PjZaXeZBrPgJ0A5pd69L.4QU5eBhz0UXL7lQ7be5RMwu 3BiQw5R7q175hvKJXS.uiES4n0MXynjVNh08lapcKCDFsG5T0E.UENiAp3HRn7DPT8flj.ak0NeB 8Jov.J56RdHWjnehrtrh21wjjxAzrVXv9V0DkA18sKhLNUVnsNPkhu.a6pwdjKmxKI_sdj.tVnNe BmN2oQn6JHOErm9yg.iSl.x7r3oka6wFsJtbp7X.1ks6Bna82apV_KuVdmqFcazsUzozi1eOaYhJ tHHFlnWYLO_uHvoblGfmGUcV.WTesIWnlZcQubplmJXV4pJXr29XY9u1SQ7GtS1_tW3GtDiKqePJ wmIFskpFSg.28VT6wHvaVgOtc40AaBCcHJjIq3gXKwQCO6tFIbYvi0YTR5kHGhyPiW5CTqK7uKya IrS02KXagXg_g4qs9rctJtwsJaRLiuTg2.vCorIG8xqxeL1hMI1F6VozX5SNGNMJZL9hpLW5uyWi y.4uwuorYC899dstI6.3Osx4vtWuqy8V5 Received: by 98.138.105.205; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:21:25 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:21:20 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Abdussalam Baryun Message-ID: <1670559497.3250764.1461165680965.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3250763_2100600564.1461165680957" Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , SM , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:36:05 -0000 ------=_Part_3250763_2100600564.1461165680957 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=A0 >Thanks alot. I had a great mentor (mentoring remotely) in 2013. I had star= ted in IETF discussions remotely from about 4 or 5 years (before the mentor= ing program) it was a disaster but I >kept good discussions. The problem I = faced was that I needed a mentor that is a participant in the WG I am worki= ng in and I found that the best practical solution is having mentors per WG= >not per region. However, I am happy we have mentors per region which is g= ood and I will work that we have mentors per WG as well. I hope the IETF ge= neral area looks into this issue as >well. We DO have mentors per WG. =C2=A0 When we get a mentee who expresses intere= st in a certain WG, then I ask mentors if they can help for that WG. =C2=A0I think the confusion may be that we are still developing our remote = mentoring. =C2=A0I feel that remote mentoring is probably best done via the= Internet Draft Review Teams & such initiatives. =C2=A0We have tried indivi= dual remote mentor / mentees before & it was not very successful. If you need a mentor for a particular WG, please email me directly & I will= see if I can find one. Nalini =C2=A0 On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:06 PM, wrote: >Thanks for your email. My opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder on= these issues. IMHO, the problem is mainly that mentors are still in few nu= mbers, and the IETF needs to look >into the IETF culture or better to say t= heir WG culture. I recommend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so the= mentor MUST not be the Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a >participant in t= hat WG (better if he/she was a Chair before). =C2=A0Abdussalam, thanks for your comments.=C2=A0 As head of the IETF Mento= ring Team, we actually have quite a few mentors. =C2=A0 In fact, far more m= entors than mentees.=C2=A0 Also, if we need mentors from a particular Worki= ng Group, I ask the WG and people are very generous with their time. =C2=A0= (For which, I thank everyone!) Are you speaking of remote mentors or regional mentors? What would you like the mentoring program to do? =C2=A0 We welcome suggesti= ons! =C2=A0 NaliniIETF Mentoring Team On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM wrote: Hi Nalini, At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.=C2=A0 (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.=C2= =A0 A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_= 5.pdf There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people f= rom other regions to start participating except for the meeting training se= ssions.=C2=A0 A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a hig= her learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there h= as not been more active participation before. Regards, -sm=20 _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity =20 ------=_Part_3250763_2100600564.1461165680957 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

=

>Thanks alot. I had a great mentor (men= toring remotely) in 2013. I had started in IETF discussions remotely from a= bout 4 or 5 years (before the mentoring program) it was a disaster but I &g= t;kept good discussions. The problem I faced was that I needed a mentor tha= t is a participant in the WG I am working in and I found that the best prac= tical solution is having mentors per WG >not per region. However, I am h= appy we have mentors per region which is good and I will work that we have = mentors per WG as well. I hope the IETF general area looks into this issue = as >well.

We DO have= mentors per WG.   When we get a mentee who expresses interest in a ce= rtain WG, then I ask mentors if they can help for that WG.

 I think the confusion= may be that we are still developing our remote mentoring.  I feel tha= t remote mentoring is probably best done via the Internet Draft Review Team= s & such initiatives.  We have tried individual remote mentor / me= ntees before & it was not very successful.

If you need a mentor for a particular W= G, please email me directly & I will see if I can find one.

Nalini
 

On Wed, A= pr 20, 2016 at 5:06 PM, <nalini.el= kins@insidethestack.com> wrote:



=
>Thanks for your email= . My opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder on these issues. IMHO, t= he problem is mainly that mentors are still in few numbers, and the IETF ne= eds to look >into the IETF culture or better to say their WG culture. I = recommend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so the mentor MUST not be= the Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a >participant in that WG (better i= f he/she was a Chair before).
 
Abdussalam, thanks for your comments.  As head of the IETF Mentoring= Team, we actually have quite a few mentors.   In fact, far more mento= rs than mentees.  Also, if we need mentors from a particular Working G= roup, I ask the WG and people are very generous with their time.   (Fo= r which, I thank everyone!)

=
Are you speaking of remote mentors or regional mentors?

What would yo= u like the mentoring program to do?   We welcome suggestions!  

Nalini
=
IETF Mentoring Team


=
On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM <sm@resistor.net> wrote:
Hi Nalini,
At 12:50 18-04-2016, n= alini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.  (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.)

Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.&nb= sp; A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https:/= /www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf

There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people f= rom other regions to start participating except for the meeting training se= ssions.  A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a hig= her learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia.

The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there h= as not been more active participation before.

Regards,
-sm
_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/di= versity






<= /div>
------=_Part_3250763_2100600564.1461165680957-- From nobody Wed Apr 20 08:39:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A39012DB1A for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:39:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JQTJdQ2bA4Pm for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x234.google.com (mail-qg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84BB912F087 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x234.google.com with SMTP id c6so30665343qga.1 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:31:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=KJ4/SQVf9qc3dtiqh+zXq4A/cxXeQetZcScv/xK87n4=; b=J133L66SI6RYGUedLhFPjjJsJKbLPRwJn02GUImNQXV5sE7tRAEnQKkAyS2LGNSMlq Pq9LscfK6qrdqOv0zn+xIU5drpd5yqpt24TGTnCCuYobaOYwK29+vFAmlF7pgvwDmfUF tAGuX72CY5zXNBc4x1OUy8pG4Men9ejFs2W/i3290knbNIWU+TolcPEUXX+i5W4LKd8G wrjVxxwwLkDTVisCDJZDKac1b0iI9k/7UMtFtmyEWPNq2DXc0hnasr2CG/Jkh3eR0FYt Br/C7eJCDK+JwCKkxEIOEPWO3qyJEuMmcWLIscYtL4JIfB6XNMBqKG0jDtakbYRAc8T+ 0jig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=KJ4/SQVf9qc3dtiqh+zXq4A/cxXeQetZcScv/xK87n4=; b=Q7LtpJL7BNv74O3M5zQM+tmtPKuez0wc1pw6fWgDnjWvuSiuVv753FVHphVMQZ8W56 TB/qO7mJh/mbmIqFVV/ToOf/GIxvT60Nnb9Q92CgP3RkkPpN9pCLo9dgq6ysrHfOTZHW jBFusno9ZVrNUwOXjorW3jan/0ospO28UwAo1/MaIngxzbKN92XzdpRvMwZeTGqubYr4 Ny+Wwlwn0EqL1HAHKPbIO/jfMdT9P7YdjcuzWkUCaNMdeNalYnudfD7kevieb1bi/aw4 ukDxf1KAvL7SvQfg2moQa/FFDBwgI4SVHm9YVtpV8LSJydN+MaX1FwZHWKZr7w/BCTiT L0mg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUV5oBUs9uO57wCHVbAc6r/vWtuQPJ5AM8xY+pTWDivBNWY+w2t22U/xqOymUU7Ga7MH+g/zABhDdL7Fg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.169.132 with SMTP id p126mr12300979qhp.71.1461166275618; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.43.131 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:31:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1670559497.3250764.1461165680965.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1670559497.3250764.1461165680965.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 17:31:15 +0200 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Nalini Elkins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113b31b2d0f4a10530ec48e1 Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , SM , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:39:42 -0000 --001a113b31b2d0f4a10530ec48e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Nalini, Even though I am participating for long but still see that I am new, just because I don't attend meetings or did not write a draft that got acceptance. Yes we need a mentor in MANET WG, I think many need that. This group is dynamic or mobile, but I still participate, I hope I get a mentor participating, I asked the AD before but we did not find. Mainly we (new participants) need a mentor in the IETF general Area, because it is a difficult group as well, you can see when you discuss on the IETF list you see it is a disaster. However, I think with your team and help we can solve many issues. AB On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, wrote: > > > > > >Thanks alot. I had a great mentor (mentoring remotely) in 2013. I had > started in IETF discussions remotely from about 4 or 5 years (before the > mentoring program) it was a disaster but I >kept good discussions. The > problem I faced was that I needed a mentor that is a participant in the WG > I am working in and I found that the best practical solution is having > mentors per WG >not per region. However, I am happy we have mentors per > region which is good and I will work that we have mentors per WG as well. I > hope the IETF general area looks into this issue as >well. > > We DO have mentors per WG. When we get a mentee who expresses interest > in a certain WG, then I ask mentors if they can help for that WG. > > I think the confusion may be that we are still developing our remote > mentoring. I feel that remote mentoring is probably best done via the > Internet Draft Review Teams & such initiatives. We have tried individual > remote mentor / mentees before & it was not very successful. > > If you need a mentor for a particular WG, please email me directly & I > will see if I can find one. > > Nalini > > > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:06 PM, wrote: > > > > > >Thanks for your email. My opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder > on these issues. IMHO, the problem is mainly that mentors are still in few > numbers, and the IETF needs to look >into the IETF culture or better to say > their WG culture. I recommend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so > the mentor MUST not be the Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a >participant > in that WG (better if he/she was a Chair before). > > Abdussalam, thanks for your comments. As head of the IETF Mentoring Team, > we actually have quite a few mentors. In fact, far more mentors than > mentees. Also, if we need mentors from a particular Working Group, I ask > the WG and people are very generous with their time. (For which, I thank > everyone!) > > Are you speaking of remote mentors or regional mentors? > > What would you like the mentoring program to do? We welcome suggestions! > > > Nalini > IETF Mentoring Team > > > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM wrote: > > Hi Nalini, > At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > > I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work > before from other regions because there was no structured way to start > participating and language insensitivity. (BTW, there is a new member of > the Mentoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will > translate the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) > > > Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. > The IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about > that. A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the > meeting policy: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf > > There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people > from other regions to start participating except for the meeting training > sessions. A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a higher > learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. > > The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there > has not been more active participation before. > > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ > diversity mailing list > diversity@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > > > > > > > --001a113b31b2d0f4a10530ec48e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Nalini,

Even though I am partici= pating for long but still see that I am new, just because I don't atten= d meetings or did not write a draft that got acceptance. Yes we need a ment= or in MANET WG, I think many need that. This group is dynamic or mobile, bu= t I still participate, I hope I get a mentor participating, I asked the AD = before but we did not find. Mainly we (new participants) need a mentor in t= he IETF general Area, because it is a difficult group as well, you can see = when you discuss on the IETF list you see it is a disaster. However, I thin= k with your team and help we can solve many issues.

AB

On Wed, Apr 20= , 2016 at 5:21 PM, <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com&g= t; wrote:
=C2=A0



>Thanks alot. I had a great mentor (men= toring remotely) in 2013. I had started in IETF discussions remotely from a= bout 4 or 5 years (before the mentoring program) it was a disaster but I &g= t;kept good discussions. The problem I faced was that I needed a mentor tha= t is a participant in the WG I am working in and I found that the best prac= tical solution is having mentors per WG >not per region. However, I am h= appy we have mentors per region which is good and I will work that we have = mentors per WG as well. I hope the IETF general area looks into this issue = as >well.

We DO have mentors= per WG. =C2=A0 When we get a mentee who expresses interest in a certain WG= , then I ask mentors if they can help for that WG.
=C2=A0I think the confusion may be that we are sti= ll developing our remote mentoring.=C2=A0 I feel that remote mentoring is p= robably best done via the Internet Draft Review Teams & such initiative= s.=C2=A0 We have tried individual remote mentor / mentees before & it w= as not very successful.

If= you need a mentor for a particular WG, please email me directly & I wi= ll see if I can find one.

= Nalini
=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:06 PM, <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote:


>Thanks for your email. My opinion is that th= e IETF needs to work harder on these issues. IMHO, the problem is mainly th= at mentors are still in few numbers, and the IETF needs to look >into th= e IETF culture or better to say their WG culture. I recommend we need one o= r two mentors for each WG, so the mentor MUST not be the Chair or AD, the m= entor MUST be a >participant in that WG (better if he/she was a Chair be= fore).
=C2=A0
Abdussalam, thanks fo= r your comments.=C2=A0 As head of the IETF Mentoring Team, we actually have= quite a few mentors. =C2=A0 In fact, far more mentors than mentees.=C2=A0 = Also, if we need mentors from a particular Working Group, I ask the WG and = people are very generous with their time. =C2=A0 (For which, I thank everyo= ne!)

Are yo= u speaking of remote mentors or regional mentors?
What would you like the mentoring pr= ogram to do? =C2=A0 We welcome suggestions! =C2=A0
Nalini
IETF M= entoring Team



On Tue, Apr 19, 20= 16 at 10:58 AM, SM <sm@resistor.net><= /span> wrote:
Hi Nalini,
At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.=C2=A0 (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.)

Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.=C2= =A0 A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https:/= /www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf

There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train peop= le from other regions to start participating except for the meeting trainin= g sessions.=C2=A0 A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a= higher learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia.

The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there h= as not been more active participation before.

Regards,
-sm
_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/di= versity






<= /div>

--001a113b31b2d0f4a10530ec48e1-- From nobody Wed Apr 20 08:43:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5678B12D722 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:43:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2gc2VR7QO49 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.90.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4A6E12E8E3 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:41:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1461166884; bh=IwUUIDh1kORhvh7bjcSgwqE0xqXNVBK+VS2nbZfd9m4=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=D91UAS+HA2MKhEw6c64dHU5m59Y0zfVIrV/KSU7XTIxHdLeI5QQFb0UycLkrgLRJK9s87AYpzCX/6O6j0Tf2HAqAO+gl6heE6Gc79vJhrHJWmsXp1TSHg2Bo8p8Z6Lk2SoyACRRBvECJiEH9wZm8aHv+02hTkl4+3gs6/CwwKeRWILRULDCqdvw5J3gchr4XPBzzk9FnMe95NKysJixyyynL9lzxNzlIehQvzKuD0naBfSswRS8HGEDUIwzML3I8sxiCNb5WaEfIHpFxyNqPV4FSrtR6u4YuoE630I/8lFVrzrQgdtVtw9cs4bUAK9gi1IUtbz1gFfxsdk3pJ52cYQ== Received: from [98.138.100.118] by nm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:41:24 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.251] by tm109.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:41:24 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1043.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2016 15:41:24 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 941140.32676.bm@omp1043.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: osCyp2cVM1lX3r1KvF6gt92Pq3M_FvzZdOJr6GameViJeUkWQLpSExBIJALNaGg B8LRnWpweIkWVrf4MJ2JgKin.c0QG9JHhdnXicm72YiIQW7WzoBAQvZ9OH_mc60dXFsLsDV83x7G e85rWI0EEVvmS1dnXxbPk.A08N8uRLjq6zfqZaKCPGLD.4ZIx0fO6mabf8tF1Ch7MH6hy4T1JOtR lLvP1hbhzvEhOAteUoHpyR3hI.Nd3Z1aVYFUfiKFnfbasN34Uy0Zq57neFfQW_LOewa9KrM04oJ. be.OcL3zTt66dVajl1fJxeToxYgI.b5Ad_FYPRGm864VTnDlfa0BJy5YEX5qBA2oimwhowSxSVgJ 6GVc6NDAdUWEUjGSF7LLdPnu954TJj5jkUVkZLtUXhrJOJBURSEl86.RgDUyZcGIm_VLcSOBpufr .hbb44.Bv2dzZ4bMv8sGmBibBswd9qmXdfzoQ5Gt8_4FF7piIq87WjY.VNUxpVd_YBEE_zRNHJHZ DlysIeFrf5sWETo4A99wZvlhYmDanltAe Received: by 98.138.105.252; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:41:24 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:41:22 +0000 (UTC) From: To: Abdussalam Baryun Message-ID: <13158432.3404974.1461166882195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3404973_1894135934.1461166882184" Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , "diversity@ietf.org" , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana , SM , Vinayak Hegde Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:43:46 -0000 ------=_Part_3404973_1894135934.1461166882184 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=A0Abussalam, =C2=A0let's continue this conversation privately & let's s= ee if I can get you talking to the right people. =C2=A0 When you write back= , please drop the diversity list & others from the CC list. =C2=A0 I think = this has now become a specific conversation and not of one dealing with gen= eral issues. >Even though I am participating for long but still see that I am new, just = because I don't attend meetings or did not write a draft that got acceptanc= e.=C2=A0 Can you point me to the draft you have written in the past that did not get= acceptance? >Yes we need a mentor in MANET WG, I think many need that. This group is dy= namic or mobile, but I still participate, I hope I get a mentor participati= ng, I asked the AD before but we did >not find.=C2=A0 I know some wonderful people in the MANET group that I can connect you with= . =C2=A0The more I know about your interests, the better for all. >Mainly we (new participants) need a mentor in the IETF general Area, becau= se it is a difficult group as well, you can see when you discuss on the IET= F list you see it is a disaster.=C2=A0 I am trying to understand what you are saying here. =C2=A0You mean a mentor= who will help you understand how the IETF works as a whole? =C2=A0 I can c= ertainly find you more than one mentor. >However, I think with your team and help we can solve many issues.=C2=A0 Thank you for your kind words. =C2=A0I hope so. =C2=A0I hope that together = with my team & the kind mentors that we can make you into a productive (and= happy!) IETF participant. =C2=A0 Let's continue to talk privately. =C2=A0B= TW, if you can tell me what language(s) you feel most comfortable with, if = not English, then, that will be quite helpful as well. Nalini =C2=A0 On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, wrote: =C2=A0 >Thanks alot. I had a great mentor (mentoring remotely) in 2013. I had star= ted in IETF discussions remotely from about 4 or 5 years (before the mentor= ing program) it was a disaster but I >kept good discussions. The problem I = faced was that I needed a mentor that is a participant in the WG I am worki= ng in and I found that the best practical solution is having mentors per WG= >not per region. However, I am happy we have mentors per region which is g= ood and I will work that we have mentors per WG as well. I hope the IETF ge= neral area looks into this issue as >well. We DO have mentors per WG. =C2=A0 When we get a mentee who expresses intere= st in a certain WG, then I ask mentors if they can help for that WG. =C2=A0I think the confusion may be that we are still developing our remote = mentoring.=C2=A0 I feel that remote mentoring is probably best done via the= Internet Draft Review Teams & such initiatives.=C2=A0 We have tried indivi= dual remote mentor / mentees before & it was not very successful. If you need a mentor for a particular WG, please email me directly & I will= see if I can find one. Nalini =C2=A0 On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:06 PM, wrote: >Thanks for your email. My opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder on= these issues. IMHO, the problem is mainly that mentors are still in few nu= mbers, and the IETF needs to look >into the IETF culture or better to say t= heir WG culture. I recommend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so the= mentor MUST not be the Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a >participant in t= hat WG (better if he/she was a Chair before). =C2=A0Abdussalam, thanks for your comments.=C2=A0 As head of the IETF Mento= ring Team, we actually have quite a few mentors. =C2=A0 In fact, far more m= entors than mentees.=C2=A0 Also, if we need mentors from a particular Worki= ng Group, I ask the WG and people are very generous with their time. =C2=A0= (For which, I thank everyone!) Are you speaking of remote mentors or regional mentors? What would you like the mentoring program to do? =C2=A0 We welcome suggesti= ons! =C2=A0 NaliniIETF Mentoring Team On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM wrote: Hi Nalini, At 12:50 18-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.=C2=A0 (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.) Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.=C2= =A0 A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_= 5.pdf There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people f= rom other regions to start participating except for the meeting training se= ssions.=C2=A0 A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a hig= her learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia. The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there h= as not been more active participation before. Regards, -sm=20 _______________________________________________ diversity mailing list diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity =20 =20 ------=_Part_3404973_1894135934.1461166882184 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 Abussalam,  let's continue this conversation priv= ately & let's see if I can get you talking to the right people.   = When you write back, please drop the diversity list & others from the C= C list.   I think this has now become a specific conversation and not = of one dealing with general issues.

>Even though I am participating for long but still see that I am ne= w, just because I don't attend meetings or did not write a draft that got a= cceptance. 

Can you point me to the draft you have written in the past t= hat did not get acceptance?

&g= t;Yes we need a mentor in MANET WG, I think many need that. This group is d= ynamic or mobile, but I still participate, I hope I get a mentor participat= ing, I asked the AD before but we did >not find. 

I know some wonderful people in the MANET group that I can con= nect you with.  The more I know about your interests, the better for a= ll.

=
>Mainly we (new partici= pants) need a mentor in the IETF general Area, because it is a difficult gr= oup as well, you can see when you discuss on the IETF list you see it is a = disaster. 

I am trying to u= nderstand what you are saying here.  You mean a mentor who will help y= ou understand how the IETF works as a whole?   I can certainly find yo= u more than one mentor.

<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1461166334204_17015" dir=3D"ltr">
>Ho= wever, I think with your team and help we can solve many issues. 


=

Thank you for your kind wo= rds.  I hope so.  I hope that together with my team & the kin= d mentors that we can make you into a productive (and happy!) IETF particip= ant.   Let's continue to talk privately.  BTW, if you can tell me= what language(s) you feel most comfortable with, if not English, then, tha= t will be quite helpful as well.

Nalini

 

On Wed, A= pr 20, 2016 at 5:21 PM, <nalini.el= kins@insidethestack.com> wrote:
 


=

>Thanks alot. I had a great mentor (mentoring remotely) in 2= 013. I had started in IETF discussions remotely from about 4 or 5 years (be= fore the mentoring program) it was a disaster but I >kept good discussio= ns. The problem I faced was that I needed a mentor that is a participant in= the WG I am working in and I found that the best practical solution is hav= ing mentors per WG >not per region. However, I am happy we have mentors = per region which is good and I will work that we have mentors per WG as wel= l. I hope the IETF general area looks into this issue as >well.

We DO have mentors per WG.   When we get a mentee who ex= presses interest in a certain WG, then I ask mentors if they can help for t= hat WG.

&nb= sp;I think the confusion may be that we are still developing our remote men= toring.  I feel that remote mentoring is probably best done via the In= ternet Draft Review Teams & such initiatives.  We have tried indiv= idual remote mentor / mentees before & it was not very successful.

If you need a m= entor for a particular WG, please email me directly & I will see if I c= an find one.

Nalini
 

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:06= PM, <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote:
<= div>


>Thanks for your email. M= y opinion is that the IETF needs to work harder on these issues. IMHO, the = problem is mainly that mentors are still in few numbers, and the IETF needs= to look >into the IETF culture or better to say their WG culture. I rec= ommend we need one or two mentors for each WG, so the mentor MUST not be th= e Chair or AD, the mentor MUST be a >participant in that WG (better if h= e/she was a Chair before).
 
A= bdussalam, thanks for your comments.  As head of the IETF Mentoring Te= am, we actually have quite a few mentors.   In fact, far more mentors = than mentees.  Also, if we need mentors from a particular Working Grou= p, I ask the WG and people are very generous with their time.   (For w= hich, I thank everyone!)

Are you speaking of remote mentors or regional mentors?
=

What would you l= ike the mentoring program to do?   We welcome suggestions!  

Nalini
IETF Mentoring Team

<= br clear=3D"none">

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:58 AM, SM <sm@resistor.net> wrote:
Hi Nalini,
At 12:50 18-04-2016, n= alini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
I wonder if there has not been more participation in active IETF work befor= e from other regions because there was no structured way to start participa= ting and language insensitivity.  (BTW, there is a new member of the M= entoring Team from Latin America, that I met in Buenos Aires who will trans= late the Mentoring emails into Spanish.)

Attendance figures were used as a substitute for Participation figures. The= IETF Community did not show much interest in doing anything about that.&nb= sp; A few years ago, an IAOC Chair posted the following to justify the meet= ing policy: https:/= /www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/pdfgakgOuij_5.pdf

There wasn't any formal effort (as the one you are doing) to train people f= rom other regions to start participating except for the meeting training se= ssions.  A person who is not used to discussing in English faces a hig= her learning curve in comparison with someone from Australia.

The regional mentors (in the Cc) might be able to comment about why there h= as not been more active participation before.

Regards,
-sm
_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
diversity@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/di= versity






<= br clear=3D"none">


------=_Part_3404973_1894135934.1461166882184-- From nobody Wed Apr 20 12:40:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D49312E4DA for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=asHgHLuG; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=resistor.net header.b=REfKkoCz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5LY4NFH6JnYL for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD2A12E4D0 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.resistor.net (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3KJel8v021976 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:40:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1461181254; x=1461267654; bh=hNxm68g0g2Wb1ZfoyZow6AQSdRVOtPLuqEfxP6dZgao=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=asHgHLuGA2t6Jy+VwgCrQLBSUfLZNsoYjQFeXdVaf7InoSvwWxhhGRjZ6nQ2JpdtJ aHh/nneiPli4R69daTCmhWEdjOt7ZbvXY83U4n8zQjcKf0mw4of9r1oS4fzOM/N7hL FVBoilc/35amsqoBZfY2+WIOTjjtj2g+952q128Y= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1461181254; x=1461267654; i=@resistor.net; bh=hNxm68g0g2Wb1ZfoyZow6AQSdRVOtPLuqEfxP6dZgao=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=REfKkoCzf8bazkBS0koJHI8hNLojE+BO1OrkpeU/pUNdBMSTWw+9bGjUtupPQAcV+ p2ZPA8nQChQyrz41fyco3K6JnarL95CLaMN9gFCsVhfk530tBH9hv9IVsfYZjaJi0j m7xCT041bq8XHiSg5OemDTGoj++eoES3UZS7KQ7w= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160420114737.10531cd0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:28:56 -0700 To: Stephan Wenger , John Levine , diversity@ietf.org From: SM In-Reply-To: <159A682B-3124-4ABC-9108-B7A6F9B49C52@stewe.org> References: <57175E85.2030804@alvestrand.no> <20160420150226.17377.qmail@ary.lan> <159A682B-3124-4ABC-9108-B7A6F9B49C52@stewe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [Diversity] Physical participation from folks in developing countries (was: Interim step on meetings site feedback for sites currently under active consideration) X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 19:40:56 -0000 Hi Stephan, John, At 08:25 20-04-2016, Stephan Wenger wrote: >done below $3000, which would be a quarter of their annual >income. To me, that sounds like self-sponsored trips are probably >out of question even to the most enthusiastic, unless they have >personal wealth well above average. And I somewhat doubt that local >companies swim in money either. Yes. >Generalizing that: expecting large scale physical participation from >folks in developing countries is naive, IMO, except when you meet in >that region. The return for our investment in traveling to BA has >to be measured on other scales. The fact that so many locals showed >up physically at the meeting already speaks in favor. If that is >followed up by remote/mailing list participation over the next few >years, that would be enough for me. Anyone saying that he/she is expecting large scale physical participation from folks in developing countries would appear insincere. However, participants residing in developing countries are likely afraid to say anything about that. If the IETF would like to have some physical participation from developing countries, it would have to take responsibility for the funding issue. Otherwise, it can only expect token physical attendance from developing countries. There is the following from Stephen Farrell [1]: "Yes, we can participate via mailing lists. And we need to do better in encouraging folks to do that. And we need to do that over and over so that newer and older participants really get it." Although it does not address physical participation problem, it can be a positive step. Regards, -sm 1. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg97929.html From nobody Mon Apr 25 01:00:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7151712D1E0 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:00:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=c2On5n9/; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=eapK5ITN Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SVqNeD99p1TD for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A467412B069 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3P80BxI023533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 25 Apr 2016 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1461571223; x=1461657623; bh=puXo+/UQOKsNKVa2G5DfQed9ihQ4lJ53R7Vg58s8/I8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=c2On5n9/sDICkcYSfKXc1l3PiRWVJVGNMtMCzhwjJZYKfuxcwLpP5/5Z5JGOhILJp izoCYvFkyraYT2uo4/Rxq5mimD2bD+5QY5/KEWiDDOi2gSWqUD5Pg2OSAuYAaHX6C9 elqrx3z5hkD115PEKlxC5XkVgdCZtrsy2/VT9hVc= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1461571223; x=1461657623; i=@elandsys.com; bh=puXo+/UQOKsNKVa2G5DfQed9ihQ4lJ53R7Vg58s8/I8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=eapK5ITNI6bxtN0iRqIlR3sAdsHsh0Pw61NUi8GwZV86nVCzMgJS+jAmfYs9hfMHC h3rMTtvyX43fq3fjnNICEsBd42G9jPQcmuzcWWjgvmpFaGz5ZfoJysbqj2sApf/PLf IaWQOX98Lc7NAM2+0fsMTr/8V8Q9HEJuye3BSoWg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160424172553.09bf31a0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 00:11:48 -0700 To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, Jari Arkko , Alia Atlas , Avri Doria , Tobias Gondrom , Olaf Kolkman , Steve Olshansky , Benson Schliesser From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <2003316287.716228.1461427040919.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo. com> References: <1389181485.681559.1461426902202.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <2003316287.716228.1461427040919.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: diversity@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-arkko-ietf-trends-and-observations-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:00:53 -0000 Hello, At 08:57 23-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: >The Impact of Diversity >------------------------ >Diversity and culture need much more discussion. These are among >the most important issues facing us if we want to navigate this >transition gracefully. I live in the United States in the State of >California. There is no racial group that has over 50% in California. > >http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/distribution-by-raceethnicity/ > >In California, we are all minorities. This is likely to be where >the IETF is going. Is California an adequate comparison or is it better to compare the IETF with the tech industry? The figures for the tech industry do not reflect the distribution in California ( http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/02/03/465270938/intel-discloses-diversity-data-challenges-tech-industry-to-follow-suit ). >So, what does this mean? > >The IETF has a culture, which IMHO, works quite well to support >innovation. Having said that, the IETF culture is redolent of the >culture of Berkeley in the 1970s (with some of the political >correctness of Northern California in 2016 thrown in for good >measure!). Some of us (esp. those of us who live in Northern >California) find that familiar and feel quite comfortable in that >culture. Others, not so much. The following is one of the concluding thoughts of the authors: "As the IETF changes, improving its cultural diversity and seeing the motivation for participation increasingly based on business interests, it remains important that we as an organization and a community take steps toward maintaining some key cultural values". The message says that the IETF has a culture which is close to the one of North California. Is that one of the key cultural values which the authors of draft-arkko-ietf-trends-and-observations-00 would like to maintain? >We have much experience with issues of diversity in >California. Battles over what language(s) will be spoken in >schools, dress codes and other issues are constantly on the ballots >in local elections. As is the inevitable backlash over the sharing >of power that is entailed. Hence, the Trump reality show disguised >as a primary contest. > >Obviously, this issue is not unique to California or the United >States. Consider Germany with their generosity and kindness in >taking many, many refugees. They are now dealing with the impacts >of their generosity. > >To truly deal with diversity, requires sensitivity and awareness as >well as having the right people be a part of that >conversation. Moving forth, sensitivity about culture, language, >food preferences, what is "affordable", venue, etc, will become more >and more important. I would submit that this actually requires a >draft co-authored by a number of people on how best to navigate these waters. According to the authors, "First, creating an environment that is good for diverse participants is the right thing to do". Is there any institutional bias? If so, how does creating an environment help to address that? There is a draft from 2013 in which a change was proposed ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moonesamy-nomcom-eligibility-01 ). There was a polite unfavorable response to the proposal even though the draft did not discuss about sensitive issues. The impact of diversity is that it became a problem in the IETF when it turned into a problem for the tech industry in the United States. The impact of diversity on the IETF is that it has a negative impact on the IETF brand as a body in which there is supposed to be equal opportunity. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Mon Apr 25 19:30:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD5212D0F8 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:30:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l6IjDd9RqugA for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x230.google.com (mail-ob0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4241012D096 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-x230.google.com with SMTP id n10so563273obb.2 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:29:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=9LbmJohT2ZzFifryd81Rnq0I3BWq0r3OX/+9k/SthNQ=; b=k46VsY2uCcnw9Z9Ssqpdq1Z5h/qyTFieFji/U+Un5XAAyq2RHcSg48dOvTOlk4F6uR HPkUGVrLYZhUb7QewuNfH3+Q2ILFvOuJqr/Zh5QZuTv39QNJaS01t6vDU7NsJrUXY7Ah 4+XITeo6GZpk2Wzc4IrhMWqkBIvmxvTltKLfuUqyeR1BgTSclJQCHuxLHeDMiUdMX/Fa v/uRr3dFPlG19y4Fjskzqa/a/Yz0/5J5/x8CxYE7z42hOND7m0OUzksos2lN0TiQTDM6 E27SUoKnhigcFWBOXadZ0YkW7RTWvP7RHQiBP79ZzDAGtfL7X1KR0QdwwVR4Yuf6sbb1 UQFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=9LbmJohT2ZzFifryd81Rnq0I3BWq0r3OX/+9k/SthNQ=; b=LPVy957L0KusKW0xz/WAXaZJemyGSMYz3j4vp3XiLn+OeUAXcl1QvS4j6oY+LwEVm+ OXkwpnHD5wvfv8y9O3PPlMVUZIvs5kerN1JuqnlqaN6YvV65NOzX4d/L5I9K38QJerla mqiQPCi6kCpWargv3DVVQgNS7ETvFIhiqk9DQ9rQYXbBliwFCn5Xz/wn+41a/ypFy6Of OFaXZHYMddtPURO4C+M03uxppAaWTTTg/PfSgRyVg/V8/68IL2qyt3n51kmDT50UcYnQ tV4JifMI6bNvnX4opqX7DT58JgmXSsbN9ODHRy96s8L4sCU4MCFmFcNzEane1Gu0SKfz WVMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXwZax/pMyupW7rc3z+sME9zRDEYlVjpVn3c4AbISfAoxa19/IpBmcGj5FnkaKZ3JpIrngnDix9QWvCxw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.62.6 with SMTP id u6mr19746oer.35.1461637796503; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.115.168 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2016 19:29:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160424172553.09bf31a0@resistor.net> References: <1389181485.681559.1461426902202.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <2003316287.716228.1461427040919.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160424172553.09bf31a0@resistor.net> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 22:29:56 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: S Moonesamy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e015384bea6aa8605315a1155 Archived-At: Cc: Benson Schliesser , Tobias Gondrom , Nalini Elkins , Olaf Kolkman , Avri Doria , "diversity@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko , Steve Olshansky Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-arkko-ietf-trends-and-observations-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 02:30:00 -0000 --089e015384bea6aa8605315a1155 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 3:11 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hello, > At 08:57 23-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > >> The Impact of Diversity >> ------------------------ >> Diversity and culture need much more discussion. These are among the >> most important issues facing us if we want to navigate this transition >> gracefully. I live in the United States in the State of California. There >> is no racial group that has over 50% in California. >> >> http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/distribution-by-raceethnicity/ >> >> In California, we are all minorities. This is likely to be where the >> IETF is going. >> > > Is California an adequate comparison or is it better to compare the IETF > with the tech industry? The figures for the tech industry do not reflect > the distribution in California ( > http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/02/03/465270938/intel-discloses-diversity-data-challenges-tech-industry-to-follow-suit > ). > > So, what does this mean? >> >> The IETF has a culture, which IMHO, works quite well to support >> innovation. Having said that, the IETF culture is redolent of the culture >> of Berkeley in the 1970s (with some of the political correctness of >> Northern California in 2016 thrown in for good measure!). Some of us >> (esp. those of us who live in Northern California) find that familiar and >> feel quite comfortable in that culture. Others, not so much. >> > > The following is one of the concluding thoughts of the authors: "As the > IETF changes, improving its cultural diversity and seeing the motivation > for participation increasingly based on business interests, it remains > important that we as an organization and a community take steps toward > maintaining some key cultural values". The message says that the IETF has > a culture which is close to the one of North California. Is that one of > the key cultural values which the authors of > draft-arkko-ietf-trends-and-observations-00 would like to maintain? Speaking personally, I think it is helpful to more clearly articulate what we as a community feel are key cultural values that support and allow the IETF to accomplish our mission of making the Internet work better with the Internet Standards Process which has goals of " Technical excellence, Prior implementation and testing, Clear, concise, and easily understood documentation, Openness and fairness, and Timeliness." [ https://www.ietf.org/about/standards-process.html ] Personally, I think that how we accomplish these goals based on community values - like using rough consensus to capture all technical concerns, engineering practical solutions that consider operations to real problems, participating as trustworthy individuals, being inclusive because we understand that different perspectives find different technical issues and solutions, encourage improving from experience based on early implementations, and so on - is useful to talk about. When and if we talk about what are community values are, I personally think it is useful to confine ourselves to where we are likely to find common ground to support the IETF's mission. As I know we're all aware, IETFers participate from many different cultures and perspectives - but we all care about the Internet. Personally, I don't think that we are talking about the culture of North California or the limited diversity seen in Silicon Valley. The IETF has participants well beyond that tiny geography. > We have much experience with issues of diversity in California. Battles >> over what language(s) will be spoken in schools, dress codes and other >> issues are constantly on the ballots in local elections. As is the >> inevitable backlash over the sharing of power that is entailed. Hence, the >> Trump reality show disguised as a primary contest. >> >> Obviously, this issue is not unique to California or the United States. >> Consider Germany with their generosity and kindness in taking many, many >> refugees. They are now dealing with the impacts of their generosity. >> >> To truly deal with diversity, requires sensitivity and awareness as well >> as having the right people be a part of that conversation. Moving forth, >> sensitivity about culture, language, food preferences, what is >> "affordable", venue, etc, will become more and more important. I would >> submit that this actually requires a draft co-authored by a number of >> people on how best to navigate these waters. >> > > According to the authors, "First, creating an environment that is good for > diverse participants is the right thing to do". Is there any institutional > bias? If so, how does creating an environment help to address that? There > is a draft from 2013 in which a change was proposed ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moonesamy-nomcom-eligibility-01 ). > There was a polite unfavorable response to the proposal even though the > draft did not discuss about sensitive issues. > I have read the recent more nuanced discussion about NomCom eligibility; I don't think that is the only or major criteria for creating an environment for diverse participants. Having been through only a tiny bit of corporate bias training, I expect that the IETF does have some institutional bias - as do we all - particularly when busy juggling work and deciding whom to listen to. I know that I, personally, would very much like to figure out how to encourage folks who have been active for a year or so and want to do more - as well as encouraging folks to think about stepping forward to help productively steer discussion and learn how to get things done in the IETF process. For instance, in Routing, we have about 15 new WG chairs in the last 2 years - about 1/3 of the total WG chairs - and it is important that we are growing people to be able to take over WG chair roles as well as shepherding, leading design teams, and the like. The impact of diversity is that it became a problem in the IETF when it > turned into a problem for the tech industry in the United States. The > impact of diversity on the IETF is that it has a negative impact on the > IETF brand as a body in which there is supposed to be equal opportunity. > Perhaps we remember different parts of the past differently, but I certainly recall when there was lots of grumbling about the lack of European participation in the IETF. Now, we have significant European participation and a noticeable amount of Asian participation. For the IETF, diversity matters in matters beyond those considered in the tech industry. For instance, it is really important to have folks participating from different parts in the technology life-cycle, if you will, from researchers, vendors, developers, operators, policy-influencers, and so on. Certainly, as the Internet has become critical to the lives of so many people and the businesses and economies of so many places, there is also a reasonable focus on how the IETF gets things done and who participates. For IETF culture and environment, I would ask - what aspects of the IETF must not change for the IETF to be able to stay true to our mission? Regards, Alia Regards, > S. Moonesamy > --089e015384bea6aa8605315a1155 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 3:11 AM, S Moonesamy <<= a href=3D"mailto:sm+ietf@elandsys.com" target=3D"_blank">sm+ietf@elandsys.c= om> wrote:
Hello,
At 08:57 23-04-2016, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
The Impact of Diversity
------------------------
Diversity and culture need much more discussion.=C2=A0 These are among the = most important issues facing us if we want to navigate this transition grac= efully.=C2=A0 I live in the United States in the State of California.=C2=A0= There is no racial group that has over 50% in California.

http://kff.org/other/state-indica= tor/distribution-by-raceethnicity/

In California, we are all minorities.=C2=A0 This is likely to be where the = IETF is going.

 Is California an adequate comparison or is it better to compare the IETF wi= th the tech industry?=C2=A0 The figures for the tech industry do not reflec= t the distribution in California ( htt= p://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/02/03/465270938/intel-discl= oses-diversity-data-challenges-tech-industry-to-follow-suit ).

So, what does this mean?

The IETF has a culture, which IMHO, works quite well to support innovation.= =C2=A0 Having said that, the IETF culture is redolent of the culture of Ber= keley in the 1970s (with some of the political correctness of Northern Cali= fornia in 2016 thrown in for good measure!).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Some of us (esp. t= hose of us who live in Northern California) find that familiar and feel qui= te comfortable in that culture.=C2=A0 Others, not so much.

 The following is one of the concluding thoughts of the authors: "As th= e IETF changes, improving its cultural diversity and seeing the motivation = for participation increasingly based on business interests, it remains impo= rtant that we as an organization and a community take steps toward maintain= ing some key cultural values".=C2=A0 The message says that the IETF ha= s a culture which is close to the one of North California.=C2=A0 Is that on= e of the key cultural values which the authors of draft-arkko-ietf-trends-a= nd-observations-00 would like to maintain?

= Speaking personally, I think it is helpful to more clearly articulate what = we as a community feel are key cultural values that support and allow the I= ETF to accomplish our mission of making the Internet work better with the I= nternet Standards Process which has goals of " Technical excellence,= =C2=A0Prior implementation and testing, Clear, concise, and easily understo= od documentation, Openness and fairness, and=C2=A0Timeliness." =C2=A0[= =C2=A0https:/= /www.ietf.org/about/standards-process.html ]

P= ersonally, I think that how we accomplish these goals based on community va= lues - like using rough consensus to capture all technical concerns, engine= ering practical solutions that consider operations to real problems, partic= ipating as trustworthy individuals, being inclusive because we understand t= hat different perspectives find different technical issues and solutions, e= ncourage improving from experience based on early implementations, and so o= n - is useful to talk about. =C2=A0

When and if we= talk about what are community values are, I personally think it is useful = to confine ourselves to where we are likely to find common ground to suppor= t the IETF's mission.=C2=A0 As I know we're all aware, IETFers part= icipate from many different cultures and perspectives - but we all care abo= ut the Internet.

Personally, I don't think that we are talking= about the culture of North California or the limited diversity seen in Sil= icon Valley.=C2=A0 The IETF has participants well beyond that tiny geograph= y.
=C2=A0
We have much experience with issues of diversity in California.=C2=A0 Battl= es over what language(s) will be spoken in schools, dress codes and other i= ssues are constantly on the ballots in local elections.=C2=A0 As is the ine= vitable backlash over the sharing of power that is entailed.=C2=A0 Hence, t= he Trump reality show disguised as a primary contest.

Obviously, this issue is not unique to California or the United States.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Consider Germany with their generosity and kindness in taking man= y, many refugees.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They are now dealing with the impacts of thei= r generosity.

To truly deal with diversity, requires sensitivity and awareness as well as= having the right people be a part of that conversation.=C2=A0 Moving forth= , sensitivity about culture, language, food preferences, what is "affo= rdable", venue, etc, will become more and more important.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= I would submit that this actually requires a draft co-authored by a number = of people on how best to navigate these waters.

 According to the authors, "First, creating an environment that is good= for diverse participants is the right thing to do".=C2=A0 Is there an= y institutional bias?=C2=A0 If so, how does creating an environment help to= address that?=C2=A0 There is a draft from 2013 in which a change was propo= sed ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/d= raft-moonesamy-nomcom-eligibility-01 ).=C2=A0 There was a polite unfavo= rable response to the proposal even though the draft did not discuss about = sensitive issues.

=C2=A0I have read the= recent more nuanced discussion about NomCom eligibility; I don't think= that is the only or major criteria for creating an environment for diverse= participants.=C2=A0 Having been through only a tiny bit of corporate bias = training, I expect that the IETF does have some institutional bias - as do = we all - particularly when busy juggling work and deciding whom to listen t= o.=C2=A0 I know that I, personally, would very much like to figure out how = to encourage folks who have been active for a year or so and want to do mor= e - as well as encouraging folks to think about stepping forward to help pr= oductively steer discussion and learn how to get things done in the IETF pr= ocess.=C2=A0 For instance, in Routing, we have about 15 new WG chairs in th= e last 2 years - about 1/3 of the total WG chairs - and it is important tha= t we are growing people to be able to take over WG chair roles as well as s= hepherding, leading design teams, and the like.

The impact of diversity is that it became a problem in the IETF when it tur= ned into a problem for the tech industry in the United States.=C2=A0 The im= pact of diversity on the IETF is that it has a negative impact on the IETF = brand as a body in which there is supposed to be equal opportunity.
=C2=A0
Perhaps we remember different parts of the p= ast differently, but I certainly recall when there was lots of grumbling ab= out the lack of European participation in the IETF.=C2=A0 Now, we have sign= ificant European participation and a noticeable amount of Asian participati= on.=C2=A0 For the IETF, diversity matters in matters beyond those considere= d in the tech industry.=C2=A0 For instance, it is really important to have = folks participating from different parts in the technology life-cycle, if y= ou will, from researchers, vendors, developers, operators, policy-influence= rs, and so on. =C2=A0 Certainly, as the Internet has become critical to the= lives of so many people and the businesses and economies of so many places= , there is also a reasonable focus on how the IETF gets things done and who= participates.

For IETF culture and environment, I= would ask - what aspects of the IETF must not change for the IETF to be ab= le to stay true to our mission?

Regards,
Alia

Regards,
S. Moonesamy=C2=A0

--089e015384bea6aa8605315a1155-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 03:20:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E38812D139 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:20:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=1MlKV03p; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=hki4Vwr2 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2eo5Wb-ApfQt for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EA212B050 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com (IDENT:sm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u3QAKNlj004772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:20:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1461666034; x=1461752434; bh=S0dzjnTQ78o6JFwxRUluAEqV7OTwHKTHkeDNmJa5lcQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=1MlKV03pTdV6l4CJnjLEu0KwdgN25IH7tiH6EOch3rp4Pk2booCEAt2AV+kXA12kv r3fVbcaDUoMx15rzw4mpTnPYcodG6/M+nrGp2D9ZLAQkhdkzBIClY4hbrTdS2198Pa ih9+dht17lURrht1oZctzsYzr+yk0+TzW2dA7TfM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1461666034; x=1461752434; i=@elandsys.com; bh=S0dzjnTQ78o6JFwxRUluAEqV7OTwHKTHkeDNmJa5lcQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=hki4Vwr2viAjejHCyPyLdjjub1e8PBV1zKtSQzije3XEBjPf7aRKkQ0QNEQhTIHPr d4cMV/q3J1jB22L+GIQ535BkdPK1FWyrMxdyahXGnBcqnY2yGDvizDNAja83MwDOFP BI6PC5F2pZ4fddDyUirry76Nm0sRoTxvnDNnpbak= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160426011853.10d60810@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 02:32:23 -0700 To: Alia Atlas From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <1389181485.681559.1461426902202.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <2003316287.716228.1461427040919.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160424172553.09bf31a0@resistor.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: Benson Schliesser , Tobias Gondrom , Nalini Elkins , Olaf Kolkman , Avri Doria , diversity@ietf.org, Jari Arkko , Steve Olshansky Subject: Re: [Diversity] draft-arkko-ietf-trends-and-observations-00 X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:20:48 -0000 Hi Alia, At 19:29 25-04-2016, Alia Atlas wrote: >For IETF culture and environment, I would ask - what aspects of the >IETF must not change for the IETF to be able to stay true to our mission? Our interpretation of the word "culture" is different. I'll use the "IETF culture" to mean social behavior of IETF participants (or attendees) as a group. The mission is take on a problem and reach a conclusion within the constraints documented as IETF procedures. If I had to look at the next 30 years I would leave the constraints open for discussion instead of setting a "must not change". Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Tue Apr 26 03:50:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6FA12D12D for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e4gIkTn9HcoQ for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F40412D107 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 03:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1av0ZI-00039T-70; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:50:12 +0200 To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, Fernando Gont , SM , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, diversity@ietf.org References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> <571631EA.9010706@si6networks.com> <5716354B.6030106@dcrocker.net> From: Pranesh Prakash Organization: Centre for Internet and Society Message-ID: <571F47DF.8070603@cis-india.org> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 16:20:07 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5716354B.6030106@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oTRjAtBKq28kUuWq1cGXwAaDmH5KioKim" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: d58e29c6f4e42f76447094ef3ccb23d2 Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Vinayak Hegde , Christian O'Flaherty , Alvaro Retana Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 10:50:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --oTRjAtBKq28kUuWq1cGXwAaDmH5KioKim Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="FFWQx6k9FObeLcXdIVb3rPpnukNCrOhoB" From: Pranesh Prakash To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, Fernando Gont , SM , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, diversity@ietf.org Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Christian O'Flaherty , Vinayak Hegde , Alvaro Retana Message-ID: <571F47DF.8070603@cis-india.org> Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> <571631EA.9010706@si6networks.com> <5716354B.6030106@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: <5716354B.6030106@dcrocker.net> --FFWQx6k9FObeLcXdIVb3rPpnukNCrOhoB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave Crocker [2016-04-19 06:40:27 -0700]: > If the IETF did most or all of its work at face to face meetings, your > assessment would be correct. But it doesn't. Or at least, it is not > supposed to. It would be great if the theory could be put to the test by cancelling=20 all IETF meetings for two years and seeing if that impacts IETF work. If IETF work would hardly be affected, then yes, the theory holds. If=20 that is not true, perhaps it is time we revised the theory? --=20 Pranesh Prakash Policy Director, Centre for Internet and Society http://cis-india.org | tel:+91 80 40926283 sip:pranesh@ostel.co | xmpp:pranesh@cis-india.org https://twitter.com/pranesh --FFWQx6k9FObeLcXdIVb3rPpnukNCrOhoB-- --oTRjAtBKq28kUuWq1cGXwAaDmH5KioKim Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXH0fgAAoJEE0qlBAVWSN1z5YP/jGwv/A8CCv/bL8htmyTxCpv fheRJm+70UmmrUa4/pSSZXsoPz0uvw183WZkCISenIsV9zjx/NTT14lpNJkITOOR lVq4KHciRXhlEA+FH0YbU394vMwgS1EWWrbmiZwR3PAnrnQ/T7GymrgBcelMTg8p Q4qmkyOe3H/IrgWxTo5Jxcfy/1sodhr9HAKM0Z38JWoXlelOavwyw4YxKvHRRIXx mE33LjMSspTCXDcjaj9Uh9Zlv5cbBziupDmLxRBsMGveNK/J97jYIsqXDvDWtFN3 Y0pwIA0X64i3GlIcs64RLXfcMeu3pbYuQxaqFvQ8iUmVpZwWw2XrezCzbjvz74dn 7URa+SlsrVSmvOFnyOwj6scbs1nnfEG+vsGzBWzEJC2a/PLsn4anMmN3YjhqLKNj caBZRsR23aO/5VflELWkGMGQquqDJCK/Uy1KhteyXD6dEmIEnG9OLHSqpMGJfS9k VshYWEdYe2o4Lr+k+rDi9cv/W+oWDND/JDT4YZoVyYoAQN6Gr5i8rZY3Bix9I+cT U3z/dhbm0uaTcu4U7MOAm+d4Gd3aKajxYf+GImOsqYD/CDEuJVRSefqIAMhxwTdG 6uwpwH1Laj47mZRDGPNGUs1pTRMalWIoZa1TjXZBW1jiaB39G2NNxogz26uzUQUQ w69Hex1wWLIMZuBekIjG =On4w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oTRjAtBKq28kUuWq1cGXwAaDmH5KioKim-- From nobody Tue Apr 26 05:50:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: diversity@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E682812D1B3 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:50:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ttdlbcGGk-vU for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2AC412D1BA for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3QCnuYd022372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:49:56 -0700 To: Pranesh Prakash , Fernando Gont , SM , nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, diversity@ietf.org References: <57151C55.30206@gmail.com> <746128222.2295531.1461009032633.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20160418172423.1071c670@resistor.net> <571631EA.9010706@si6networks.com> <5716354B.6030106@dcrocker.net> <571F47DF.8070603@cis-india.org> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <571F63EC.6080204@bbiw.net> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:49:48 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <571F47DF.8070603@cis-india.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 26 Apr 2016 05:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: Hui Deng , Dhruv Dhody , Christian O'Flaherty , Vinayak Hegde , Alvaro Retana Subject: Re: [Diversity] Participation in active IETF work X-BeenThere: diversity@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Diversity open mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 12:50:09 -0000 On 4/26/2016 3:50 AM, Pranesh Prakash wrote: > Dave Crocker [2016-04-19 06:40:27 -0700]: >> If the IETF did most or all of its work at face to face meetings, your >> assessment would be correct. But it doesn't. Or at least, it is not >> supposed to. > > It would be great if the theory could be put to the test by cancelling > all IETF meetings for two years and seeing if that impacts IETF work. > > If IETF work would hardly be affected, then yes, the theory holds. If > that is not true, perhaps it is time we revised the theory? That does not test the theory, since the theory is about 'most', not 'all'. The real test is to peruse existing working group mailing lists and compare the extent of substantive work done there, compared against the ground covered during the working group's face to face meetings. There has always been need of face to face meetings, to augment the work on the mailing list. It permits far more efficient exchanges for exploring and resolving barriers to progress. It also facilitates cross-communication among different efforts, albeit informally. The question is about balance, not about eliminating any one form of meeting. d/ d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net