From nobody Tue Jan 3 06:01:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnssd@ietf.org Delivered-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC65E1295DC; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 06:01:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.40.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148345208069.27920.8824352835692405072.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 06:01:20 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: dnssd@ietf.org Subject: [dnssd] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnssd-mdns-dns-interop-04.txt X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 14:01:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Extensions for Scalable DNS Service Discovery of the IETF. Title : On Interoperation of Labels Among Conventional DNS and Other Resolution Systems Author : Andrew Sullivan Filename : draft-ietf-dnssd-mdns-dns-interop-04.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2017-01-03 Abstract: Despite its name, DNS-Based Service Discovery can use naming systems other than the Domain Name System when looking for services. Moreover, when it uses the DNS, DNS-Based Service Discovery uses the full capability of DNS, rather than using a subset of available octets. In order for DNS-SD to be used effectively in environments where multiple different name systems and conventions for their operation are in use, it is important to attend to differences in the underlying technology and operational environment. This memo presents an outline of the requirements for selection of labels for conventional DNS and other resolution systems when they are expected to interoperate in this manner. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnssd-mdns-dns-interop/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnssd-mdns-dns-interop-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dnssd-mdns-dns-interop-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jan 12 01:51:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnssd@ietf.org Delivered-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B5E1293F8; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 01:51:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool\"" To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.40.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148421466665.19397.526046657824789532.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 01:51:06 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: dnssd@ietf.org, dnssd-chairs@ietf.org, tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk, terry.manderson@icann.org Subject: [dnssd] dnssd - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 98 X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:51:06 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Tim Chown, a Chair of the dnssd working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Extensions for Scalable DNS Service Discovery Area Name: Internet Area Session Requester: Tim Chown Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 60 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: dane intarea 6lo dbound dprive homenet dnsop 6man saag Second Priority: dhc Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Jan 12 01:53:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622691294C8 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 01:53:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Cc: "session-request@ietf.org" , "dnssd@ietf.org" , "dnssd-chairs@ietf.org" , "terry.manderson@icann.org" Subject: Re: [dnssd] dnssd - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 98 X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." 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X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 03:59:46 -0000 I am writing a small implementation of MDNS and DNS-SD to test the privacy and pairing drafts, and I am puzzled by the IPv4 vs. IPv6 issues. The MDNS spec mentions that queries can be sent to "multicast address 224.0.0.251 or its IPv6 equivalent FF02::FB". That's nice, but it is wonderfully underspecified. Or maybe I am just a bit slow these days, and I just need help... Given a query for some record type in the ".local" namespace, should the implementation: 1) Send queries to both 224.0.0.251 and FF02::FB and merge the results? 2) Send queries only to 224.0.0.251? 3) Send queries only to FF02::FB? 4) Send to 224.0.0.251 and then try FF02::FB if no response come after a timeout? 5) Or vice versa? 6) Perform some guesswork as to whether the local network prefers IPv4 or IPv6? 7) Do different things if the query is for an A record versus AAAA? Also, is there a different recommendation for one-shot queries and continuous queries? And did we decide on purpose to not document that in the RFC? -- Christian Huitema From nobody Wed Jan 18 08:40:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9278712947A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:40:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.199, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FQ-ygY84bcNu for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-in4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.151.62.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B607129405 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:40:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=apple.com; s=mailout2048s; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@apple.com; t=1484757617; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-id:To:Cc:MIME-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-reply-to:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=K4LKb4l5NDB5j07jSsNHFT9RVFqCAvz4Y2B4A99fwJI=; b=fhhtojIOo+5AALgqM1/nUroD6A7oMPchch0W9cP6fpED5qICaEwIJxuwR875Qg1e tYbqUjVWhR+pkcaYoZzwtj0PASrBJ+UNCpdJQ2p5kBEocYRqZyQHN2r5rg6u0AEU Dhapt4G8UeDEnHOb+0wW0OJIaipookCEJn+dfHyMcH6XP5nc0OZzian09iYEGlUy AGjDxTgWd6nFl7Ul3Hrxn1YDybQhwDLzoYnBm3YHJBkaegwX+OWvTAShp/Qa1tGD FSHFEw12haCG9EeUQjh2FVVaumkLoR5qpksQdlluk7SsEpxyMAMVwAvYCfYCob2Q aANg4LVsl0Ea5wEl01wxTQ==; Received: from relay8.apple.com (relay8.apple.com [17.128.113.102]) by mail-in4.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id 32.BC.12229.17A9F785; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:40:17 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11973e12-811559a000002fc5-17-587f9a71f85d Received: from jimbu (jimbu.apple.com [17.151.62.37]) by relay8.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 27.AF.29380.07A9F785; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:40:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Received: from [17.153.68.24] (unknown [17.153.68.24]) by jimbu.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.0 64bit (built Sep 28 2016)) with ESMTPSA id <0OJZ00IQ9IB4TS60@jimbu.apple.com>; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:40:16 -0800 (PST) Sender: cheshire@apple.com From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: <028501d2713f$32d5b3b0$98811b10$@huitema.net> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:40:15 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <3E69567A-AE2C-47C0-84C4-554A623A2968@apple.com> References: <028501d2713f$32d5b3b0$98811b10$@huitema.net> To: Christian Huitema X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCYpls4qz7CYMJ1bov3S2cxWkxunM3u wORxa8YpFo8lS34yBTBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGW0vNjMVPCSr+LJ/vtMDYyvubsYOTkkBEwk vh64xdLFyMUhJLCPUeJU/25WmMSjPefYQWwhgWWMEktnxILYvAKCEj8m3wNq4OBgFlCXmDIl F6L3G6PE5pMdYPXCAlISr1Z+ZgapEQaac3gGP0iYTUBL4sXnK2wgNqeAlcT9m1/AylkEVCV2 XF0PZjMLCEksuLYFytaWePLuAivEWhuJ7w/nskCcYylxoWM6I4gtAlSzZvY9JoiTZSWenFwE 9ouEQAebxNmpW9gmMArPQnL2LISzZyFZsYCReRWjUG5iZo5uZp6JXmJBQU6qXnJ+7iZGUFhP txPawXhqldUhRgEORiUe3o6i+ggh1sSy4srcQ4zSHCxK4rwHG+sihATSE0tSs1NTC1KL4otK c1KLDzEycXBKNTDK3/WoZHF2fD5V37hUdN6taRqau6MfCp1KjXfjWWBw7bPZXpGpuv2Gp772 rXbltXlx6pDJ0tNmc3JcLCvUJidwrDkrqfCCN/roK81V54V69ffWedbHawkxGKwqX+z4zYXP tN5Qb1lT2ykfB2GXzL3fP1n/+sS+8hjXAt/AyW+0VZ7P2fmx/qUSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgDCa75+ TAIAAA== X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OVbdwVn2EwcF1zBbvl85itJjcOJvd gcnj1oxTLB5LlvxkCmCK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4MpoebGZqeAlX8WT/feZGhhfc3cxcnJICJhI PNpzjh3CFpO4cG89G4gtJLCMUWLpjFgQm1dAUOLH5HssXYwcHMwC6hJTpuR2MXIBlXxjlNh8 sgOsV1hASuLVys/MIDXCQDMPz+AHCbMJaEm8+HwFbCSngJXE/ZtfwMpZBFQldlxdD2YzCwhJ LLi2BcrWlnjy7gIrxFobie8P57JAnGMpcaFjOiOILQJUs2b2PSaIk2UlnpxcxDKBUXAWkktn IVw6C8nUBYzMqxgFilJzEist9BILCnJS9ZLzczcxgsKzoTBtB2PTcqtDjAIcjEo8vB1F9RFC rIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHjZpgOFeFMSK6tSi/Lji0pzUosPMUpzsCiJ817uB0oJpCeWpGanphak FsFkmTg4pRoY01dZJ25xeKoqesqxQf2i3JNn8gsvTwhjq3DX0TKx+lSW/a95y1ZpxpdnFt+P uf7b+erDp1e6ttWbHr56ZcfsT/98FrU973m/aG97xymB3Hpbo1VakkGijvfCb635+onXIkh3 5c19bueSv/5bpey/8tu3s0oW/49fvr/5WYdIyyWp7N4Sl0B/PiWW4oxEQy3mouJEAA6TRdxL AgAA Archived-At: Cc: dnssd@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnssd] When does MDNS/DNS-SD use IPv6? X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 16:40:18 -0000 On 17 Jan 2017, at 19:58, Christian Huitema wrote: > I am writing a small implementation of MDNS and DNS-SD to test the = privacy > and pairing drafts, and I am puzzled by the IPv4 vs. IPv6 issues. The = MDNS > spec mentions that queries can be sent to "multicast address = 224.0.0.251 or > its IPv6 equivalent FF02::FB". That's nice, but it is wonderfully > underspecified. Or maybe I am just a bit slow these days, and I just = need > help... Given a query for some record type in the ".local" namespace, = should > the implementation: >=20 > 1) Send queries to both 224.0.0.251 and FF02::FB and merge the = results? > 2) Send queries only to 224.0.0.251? > 3) Send queries only to FF02::FB? > 4) Send to 224.0.0.251 and then try FF02::FB if no response come after = a > timeout? > 5) Or vice versa? > 6) Perform some guesswork as to whether the local network prefers IPv4 = or > IPv6? > 7) Do different things if the query is for an A record versus AAAA? >=20 > Also, is there a different recommendation for one-shot queries and continuous queries?=20 The Apple open source mDNSResponder implementation sends both queries in = parallel. There are no timeouts in the mDNSResponder APIs. There are no operations = that fail, only operations that haven=E2=80=99t succeeded yet. The = reason the printer doesn=E2=80=99t show up might be that it=E2=80=99s = turned off =E2=80=94 which is a situation the user can remedy. The = client keeps patiently sending queries (with exponential backoff) until = the device gets turned on and responds, or the user decides to cancel. > And did we decide on purpose to not document that in the RFC? Just an oversight, I think. Or perhaps we were optimistically looking = forwards to a future world of all IPv6-only devices where the question = wouldn=E2=80=99t apply. Stuart Cheshire From nobody Wed Jan 18 17:14:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A03812946A for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:14:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.757 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.757 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-1.156, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f8UIGLf2fWFd for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D57F129442 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from xsmtp12.mail2web.com ([168.144.250.177]) by mx43.antispamcloud.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1cU1Ik-0005cE-Ki for dnssd@ietf.org; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 02:14:07 +0100 Received: from [10.5.2.14] (helo=xmail04.myhosting.com) by xsmtp12.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1cU1Ie-0007I4-O8 for dnssd@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 20:14:04 -0500 Received: (qmail 27620 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2017 01:13:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO icebox) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[72.235.151.78]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail04.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 19 Jan 2017 01:13:58 -0000 From: "Christian Huitema" To: "'Stuart Cheshire'" References: <028501d2713f$32d5b3b0$98811b10$@huitema.net> <3E69567A-AE2C-47C0-84C4-554A623A2968@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <3E69567A-AE2C-47C0-84C4-554A623A2968@apple.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:13:55 -0800 Message-ID: <04ce01d271f1$4f75c160$ee614420$@huitema.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFqMHg/gd45SvujgbB2lnNS3KwtFAGHbTAQogNAkWA= Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: 168.144.250.177 X-SpamExperts-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-SpamExperts-Username: 168.144.250.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=168.144.250.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.08) X-Filter-ID: s0sct1PQhAABKnZB5plbIVbU93hg6Kq00BjAzYBqWlVTHAar8Je/lORhy3PZJU8LERWeKKG4PAQY Nyavp7c49L/N1imVzxQGuMdyq1ILpVFTugiLDom8V25hond3K4RsO76XSTAwtV4mg4i2ouCDa4AU hvIWAV5xUW/+gAh4vXoQVNyV981Hd/9NT5ag7ZvxRcOb18WfxGyg6Om6u4YYm0t13n3chCaF1Fk/ 9PeN8gY5hjoyEb9Oq0NWpyO3vrfYNrJwCbVSZviV1vzVlxiUlT3dKxLhoxcmaInYbR5vlqGudzLe k2TYFBStSOMccbr5Uz0sPgnpAk2KA2vJwMd1uWhCmLzOxTAcQmFWVARhgNqBNFD3an3wiMp49rVr ybSBe34TY+s3lj/RgDQoaICKQxQRCdMNhge1Unb77YyuZq72jwfLcQRDEj+9cHzYRUqWRBdQ80wr wyng3wNtDYr6IWSdEOMftBjsWb6BDQzjSsEw7+KMtoemwN8keIAcPKMBBQ67muZNm3G2c8/Pjjqy k0k0bdVHmDm5y9NcoZdM30MpNkbYYJ8YZ7d5zi74j6F/edseI+0iffshWIcU02XSgP6DwZpjxPTx I2S/vwoydU2Z0wfN9VTx9JdR4F4pphrEJ0EukYkH0+QwgTkvGReJqYh2OsKXXkoVR3vRgp+PhUTh 7upESYb585WZ0BSQoLJUJuEtgNryKqCFJ5h/4J1GJb9VSjPFKmMG+slTmUsw/+D7NlKfHadlY9VB h5JyIzzQ/I1dpLTifeoHWo0A7trCgivvMbIIty1BrdRX3euPU+v6hYCF0D67O+iDK8Lnv/b7w0RO kq5v3Md12tbcPxjzQdpjXhV8g5C9ZVdQH0yPWSY= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine5.antispamcloud.com X-Recommended-Action: accept Archived-At: Cc: dnssd@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnssd] When does MDNS/DNS-SD use IPv6? X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 01:14:11 -0000 On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 8:40 AM, Stuart Cheshire wrote: > On 17 Jan 2017, at 19:58, Christian Huitema = wrote: >> ... Given a query for some record type in the ".local" namespace, = should >> the implementation: >>=20 >> 1) Send queries to both 224.0.0.251 and FF02::FB and merge the = results? >> 2) Send queries only to 224.0.0.251? >> 3) Send queries only to FF02::FB? >> 4) Send to 224.0.0.251 and then try FF02::FB if no response come = after a >> timeout? >> 5) Or vice versa? >> 6) Perform some guesswork as to whether the local network prefers = IPv4 or >> IPv6? >> 7) Do different things if the query is for an A record versus AAAA? >> ... >=20 > > The Apple open source mDNSResponder implementation sends both queries = in parallel. OK. But if we all nodes do that and if all nodes publish their records = on both IPv4 and IPv6, there is going to be a fair amount of duplicate = traffic. More on potential fixes later in this message. > There are no timeouts in the mDNSResponder APIs. There are no = operations that fail,=20 > only operations that haven=E2=80=99t succeeded yet. The reason the = printer doesn=E2=80=99t show up=20 > might be that it=E2=80=99s turned off =E2=80=94 which is a situation = the user can remedy. The client=20 > keeps patiently sending queries (with exponential backoff) until the = device gets=20 > turned on and responds, or the user decides to cancel. OK. >> And did we decide on purpose to not document that in the RFC? > > Just an oversight, I think. Or perhaps we were optimistically looking = forwards to a=20 > future world of all IPv6-only devices where the question = wouldn=E2=80=99t apply. That would be nice, but it will probably not happen for another few = years. In between, I was wondering if there are better ways to do things = than the strict "ships in the night" approach described in the "IPv6 = Considerations" of RFC.=20 One easy fix for example would be the known answer suppression, in which = the list of known answers would be the union of the records received on = IPv4 and IPv6. There may also be a recommendation on random delays, so = the messages on IPv4 and IPv6 arrive at different times. A more complex fix could be to add a flag somewhere in the query, maybe = an EDNS extension, to indicate that this is a duplicate of a particular = query sent on another protocol. Dual stack hosts would then be free to = only provide one set of answers. Any interest for that? -- Christian Huitema From nobody Thu Jan 19 00:16:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216BC12940F for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:16:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.377, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, MISSING_MIMEOLE=1.899, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RJ30AyZB1cRV for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.mailbox.org (mx1.mailbox.org [80.241.60.212]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A43E128B37 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org (smtp1.mailbox.org [80.241.60.240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FE6944E30; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 09:16:45 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.240]) by hefe.heinlein-support.de (hefe.heinlein-support.de [91.198.250.172]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id JHhIJlJY6CmO; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 09:16:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 09:16:35 +0100 Message-ID: <4bbb6dce-3f89-40a6-9028-15d723391da0@email.android.com> X-Android-Message-ID: <4bbb6dce-3f89-40a6-9028-15d723391da0@email.android.com> From: Hagen Paul Pfeifer To: Christian Huitema Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Cc: "cheshire@apple com" , dnssd@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnssd] When does MDNS/DNS-SD use IPv6? X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." 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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:29:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=82fvJ9hEIqI+uOe5VFAYUMaWvNZuEkAU84RvdkNFlNg=; b=S3LaJPHl60aYk7O+r0QjuomzMCdVYkgTE0AV9TVujN990c89nSLr14eWBqiTV5kYo9 Oy6R0M6cumcrywgjoPtXUOqa9eIJo2FjhOlmjuQ9TDVw5BoVOBvZkK8AvAO9XU9G6yBM Wu0Tr+1APKIjNkdH41ys7uRqTec78f3keLAa0rf2dkpvn5HNeR2HzZVYcRdci3OeA8Fh u1LY/Hnv7227GAgd/QPQVRpc5Y56sNmOlFKObB1R0BohFAfxAsyQ2oRzE4BW86F/pXRz bxcE6yBgPdDfCWqCVhzcvK061u7wRl78may+SzKNlghwYioRzGrBUHcTTJihwJ2PG8iU bj/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=82fvJ9hEIqI+uOe5VFAYUMaWvNZuEkAU84RvdkNFlNg=; b=bMf0+WE0o2kWEHwqMA46pFGvbdR00caeSy/YZENDnDz+Jqx/0KDPTcA7R1vMTSQsz6 LpQUkheLL5alil6OFQzc0Ix+mrWyMSXcRihEEKb9ybb3lGwy0KJ3whgcaDcA770Pg+wS uON8VF9BBHeNqXz1EzRt4eHKZdyKqxwlSJ7Dm14CIUGc63c9tJAIcI8QUhCbnkLWqSNN n0mfThv1z6w5mJznYJJji3xLA7UOVzLTYGeIEla6HwNx0+APfjYDWZci+CygCJ5AI5pt aAQRG27eN+BT1RmIPvdAaiMZkqsdDEXWpIoqc0JpT7izsptt8skeTnOp8INl9fJTJHtf +B4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKayVzOQa0lZ+h8MRMYCxHwk/RorGhp6liEel7Ucs+HHESH0MgU40pZrAfjDVfPwAzNzkqE7auHjxN/mGXs X-Received: by 10.223.165.129 with SMTP id g1mr6457319wrc.156.1484814577257; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:29:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.21.69 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:29:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4bbb6dce-3f89-40a6-9028-15d723391da0@email.android.com> References: <4bbb6dce-3f89-40a6-9028-15d723391da0@email.android.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 17:29:16 +0900 Message-ID: To: Hagen Paul Pfeifer Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="94eb2c1cd87c74581d05466e5564" Archived-At: Cc: "cheshire@apple com" , dnssd@ietf.org, Christian Huitema Subject: Re: [dnssd] When does MDNS/DNS-SD use IPv6? X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 08:29:41 -0000 --94eb2c1cd87c74581d05466e5564 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 19 January 2017 at 17:16, Hagen Paul Pfeifer wrote: > > > Am 19.01.2017 02:13 schrieb Christian Huitema : > > >> The Apple open source mDNSResponder implementation sends both queries in >> parallel. > > OK. But if we all nodes do that and if all nodes publish their records on > both IPv4 and IPv6, there is going to be a fair amount of duplicate traffic. > More on potential fixes later in this message. > > > Fair amount of what? DNS, OK, but considering all traffic it is probably > neglicable. As always: it is a compromise between implementation complexity, > already deployed software, new extensions, new bugs and other factors. And > hoping that in a not so far future IPv6 only networks exists. On networks with even moderate numbers of hosts it can be quite a lot of traffic. This is frequently a concern for battery impact (to those devices that are primarily battery powered). (We see bug reports about this stuff.) --94eb2c1cd87c74581d05466e5564 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIS3wYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIS0DCCEswCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg ghBFMIIEXDCCA0SgAwIBAgIOSBtqDm4P/739RPqw/wcwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwZDELMAkGA1UE BhMCQkUxGTAXBgNVBAoTEEdsb2JhbFNpZ24gbnYtc2ExOjA4BgNVBAMTMUdsb2JhbFNpZ24gUGVy c29uYWxTaWduIFBhcnRuZXJzIENBIC0gU0hBMjU2IC0gRzIwHhcNMTYwNjE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMjEw NjE1MDAwMDAwWjBMMQswCQYDVQQGEwJCRTEZMBcGA1UEChMQR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBudi1zYTEiMCAG A1UEAxMZR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBIViBTL01JTUUgQ0EgMTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCC AQoCggEBALR23lKtjlZW/17kthzYcMHHKFgywfc4vLIjfq42NmMWbXkNUabIgS8KX4PnIFsTlD6F GO2fqnsTygvYPFBSMX4OCFtJXoikP2CQlEvO7WooyE94tqmqD+w0YtyP2IB5j4KvOIeNv1Gbnnes BIUWLFxs1ERvYDhmk+OrvW7Vd8ZfpRJj71Rb+QQsUpkyTySaqALXnyztTDp1L5d1bABJN/bJbEU3 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from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5C41293EE for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 02:24:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.377, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, MISSING_MIMEOLE=1.899, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J_6FZvExQZEu for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 02:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.mailbox.org (mx1.mailbox.org [80.241.60.212]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01023128B37 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 02:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org (smtp1.mailbox.org [80.241.60.240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06ECF45626; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 11:24:23 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.240]) by gerste.heinlein-support.de (gerste.heinlein-support.de [91.198.250.173]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id pZIYXfXpKZYE; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 11:24:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 11:24:13 +0100 Message-ID: X-Android-Message-ID: From: Hagen Paul Pfeifer To: Erik Kline Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Cc: "cheshire@apple com" , dnssd@ietf.org, Christian Huitema Subject: Re: [dnssd] When does MDNS/DNS-SD use IPv6? 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X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 05:19:27 -0000 On Thursday, January 19, 2017 2:24 AM, Paul Pfeifer wrote: > Am 19.01.2017 09:29 schrieb Erik Kline : > >> On networks with even moderate numbers of hosts it can be quite a lot = >> of traffic. This is frequently a concern for battery impact (to = those=20 >> devices that are primarily battery powered). (We see bug reports=20 >> about this stuff. > > Ack, from a power consumption point of view it is beneficial if the = time span between both=20 > transmitted packets are as short as possible to wake the CPU one time = and not two. So=20 > reducing C state transitions into C0 and friends. If we believe that modern platforms all do IPv6 & IPv4, then the = optimization for the common case would be something like "try IPv6 = first; collect results; after a short timer, repeat query on IPv4, = filling the list of known answers with what was learned over IPv6; = collect results; on subsequent timers, alternate repeat on IPv6 and = IPv4, with the list of known answers collecting everything received so = far through either v4 or v6." That would reduce overhead, while still = allowing for some IPv6 only or IPv4 only hosts. -- Christian Huitema =20 From nobody Fri Jan 20 00:31:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnssd@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4EF7129AAB for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:31:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.377, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, MISSING_MIMEOLE=1.899, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IjbPdwvWZqoK for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx2.mailbox.org (mx2.mailbox.org [80.241.60.215]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7814F129AAA for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org (smtp1.mailbox.org [80.241.60.240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx2.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32B8044DC9; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 09:31:11 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.240]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by spamfilter03.heinlein-hosting.de (spamfilter03.heinlein-hosting.de [80.241.56.117]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTPS id MUcofJ6we3sD; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 09:31:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 09:31:03 +0100 Message-ID: X-Android-Message-ID: From: Hagen Paul Pfeifer To: Christian Huitema Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Cc: "cheshire@apple com" , 'Erik Kline' , dnssd@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnssd] When does MDNS/DNS-SD use IPv6? X-BeenThere: dnssd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of extensions to DNS-based service discovery for routed networks." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:31:16 -0000 PGRpdiBkaXI9J2F1dG8nPjxkaXY+PGJyPjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWlsX2V4dHJhIj48ZGl2IGNs YXNzPSJnbWFpbF9xdW90ZSI+MjAuMDEuMjAxNyA2OjE5IHdyb3RlICZuYnNwO0NocmlzdGlhbiBI dWl0ZW1hICZsdDtodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0Jmd0Ozo8YnIgdHlwZT0iYXR0cmlidXRpb24i PjxibG9ja3F1b3RlIGNsYXNzPSJxdW90ZSIgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbjowIDAgMCAuOGV4O2JvcmRl ci1sZWZ0OjFweCAjY2NjIHNvbGlkO3BhZGRpbmctbGVmdDoxZXgiPjxwIGRpcj0ibHRyIj48YnI+ CklmIHdlIGJlbGlldmUgdGhhdCBtb2Rlcm4gcGxhdGZvcm1zIGFsbCBkbyBJUHY2ICZhbXA7IElQ djQsIHRoZW4gdGhlIG9wdGltaXphdGlvbiBmb3IgdGhlIGNvbW1vbiBjYXNlIHdvdWxkIGJlIHNv bWV0aGluZyBsaWtlICJ0cnkgSVB2NiBmaXJzdDsgY29sbGVjdCByZXN1bHRzOyBhZnRlciBhIHNo b3J0IHRpbWVyLCByZXBlYXQgcXVlcnkgb24gSVB2NCwgZmlsbGluZyB0aGUgbGlzdCBvZiBrbm93 biBhbnN3ZXJzIHdpdGggd2hhdCB3YXMgbGVhcm5lZCBvdmVyIElQdjY7IGNvbGxlY3QgcmVzdWx0 czsgb24gc3Vic2VxdWVudCB0aW1lcnMsIGFsdGVybmF0ZSByZXBlYXQgb24gSVB2NiBhbmQgSVB2 NCwgd2l0aCB0aGUgbGlzdCBvZiBrbm93biBhbnN3ZXJzIGNvbGxlY3RpbmcgZXZlcnl0aGluZyBy ZWNlaXZlZCBzbyBmYXIgdGhyb3VnaCBlaXRoZXIgdjQgb3IgdjYuIiBUaGF0IHdvdWxkIHJlZHVj ZSBvdmVyaGVhZCwgd2hpbGUgc3RpbGwgYWxsb3dpbmcgZm9yIHNvbWUgSVB2NiBvbmx5IG9yIElQ djQgb25seSBob3N0cy4mbmJzcDs8YnI+PC9wPjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48L2Rp dj48ZGl2IGRpcj0iYXV0byI+PGJyPjwvZGl2PjxkaXYgZGlyPSJhdXRvIj5ZZXMsIHRoaXMgc291 bmRzIHJlYXNvbmFibGUuIEEgZ29vZCBjb21wcm9taXNlIGJldHdlZW4gdjQvdjYgY29ubmVjdGl2 aXR5LCBvdmVyaGVhZCAoaW5jbCBwb3dlciBjb25zdW1wdGlvbikgYW5kIHNvZnR3YXJlIGNvbXBs ZXhpdHkuPC9kaXY+PGRpdiBkaXI9ImF1dG8iPjxicj48L2Rpdj48ZGl2IGRpcj0iYXV0byI+SGFn ZW48L2Rpdj48ZGl2IGRpcj0iYXV0byI+PGRpdiBjbGFzcz0iZ21haWxfZXh0cmEiPjxkaXYgY2xh c3M9ImdtYWlsX3F1b3RlIj48YmxvY2txdW90ZSBjbGFzcz0icXVvdGUiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW46 MCAwIDAgLjhleDtib3JkZXItbGVmdDoxcHggI2NjYyBzb2xpZDtwYWRkaW5nLWxlZnQ6MWV4Ij48 cCBkaXI9Imx0ciI+PC9wPjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj4=