Subject: [Ecrit] New Project Approval Request (PAR) for IEEE 802.21.1 on Emergency Services

From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:32:27 +0200

FYI, the IEEE 802 Plenary meeting which happens this week in San
Francisco has a PAR (equivalent with a WG charter) for approval for an
Emergency Services project. 

http://www.ieee802.org/PARs/2009-07/21-09-0027-06-00es-emergency-service
s-par-and-5c.doc

I think Donald attends the meeting, probably Bernard as well. 

Dan

---

From: "Bernard Aboba" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:59:55 -0700

I am also in San Francisco, in the IEEE 802.21 meeting.   FWIW, Tony Jeffree
(chair of IEEE 802.1) has recently sent in his PAR evaluation, which is
Enclosed below.  My sense is that the PAR could be headed for "rough 
waters" in the IEEE 802 EC. 

====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: IEEE 802.1 list HELP only [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Tony Jeffree
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 7:52 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [802.1 - 6573] Emergency services PAR

This list strips out HTML. For more format and size rules, see "Sending" at
802.1 list help: www.ieee802.org/1/email-pages/rvbkx609.html
-----

Vivek -

I have significant problems with this draft PAR, some of which cannot be
fixed simply by
changing the wording of the draft.

Firstly, the PAR reads like a charter for the working group to boil the
ocean. The problem
that the PAR offers to solve is large, multi-faceted, complex, and will
inevitably involve
expertise across the breadth of 802 technologies, as well as expertise in
the political
and regulatory issues surrounding this area, and the ways in which they
interact with the
technical solutions. A PAR is a charter to write a single standard; given
the scope of the
problem, I don't believe that the solution is going to consist of a single
document;
neither do I believe that the set of documents that would eventually be
needed will be
possible to write within a single working group. So, in short, the scope of
the project is
way too broad, and is consequently unlikely to be achievable in any
realistic timeframe. A
starting point that might have some chance of success would be to develop an
architecture
for emergency services support across 802; a competently written
architecture can (and
should) inform the set of documents that are needed in order to address the
technology
issues, and how they relate to each other. However, that is not what this
draft PAR
proposes.

Secondly, the subject matter of the PAR has no relationship to the current
charter of the
802.21 WG. Simply changing the 802.21 charter to make it "fit" is not, in my
view, the
correct solution here; past experience during the development of the
existing 802.21
standard gives me no confidence either in 802.21's will to develop truly
cross-802
standards or its ability to do so. I believe that the answer to 802.1's
charter issues is
simple; if you are done doing work on the subject matter of your original
standard, then
it is time you did the right thing and closed down the WG, rather than
starting unrelated
work. If there are further topic areas that your members desire to work on,
and that are
not a good fit with your current charter, then the right thing to do is to
create one or
more EC study groups to look at those topics and determine, on an 802-wide
basis, how they
should be tackled. That way, we stand a better chance of getting
participation in the
process by interested parties across 802, and less chance of the activity
becoming either
wireline or wireless centric. Once each EC study group has done its job, the
EC will get
to determine where any work that is proposed should best be done, and
whether there is a
need to create a new WG to tackle it.

So, I will oppose the approval of this PAR on Friday. I will also oppose any
change to
802.21's charter beyond the subject matter of its existing standard and
approved projects.
I would, however, support the establishment of an EC study group to study
what (if
anything) 802 should do about emergency services, should anyone choose to
propose forming
one.

Regards,
Tony
====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald Eastlake [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 7:11 AM
To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
Cc: [email-masked]; The IESG; IAB IAB; Bernard Aboba
Subject: Re: New Project Approval Request (PAR) for IEEE 802.21.1 on
Emergency Services

Yes, I am in San Francisco at the 802 Plenary, although mostly tied up
in 802.11 (Wi-Fi) chairing 802.11s (Mesh Networking), a position I've
held for several years but from which I have resigned effective with
the end of this week. And to the extent I'm not tied up in 802.11,
I'll be in 802.1, particularly the 802.1 Interworking and DCB task
forces...

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-634-2066 (home)
 155 Beaver Street
 Milford, MA 01757 USA
 [email-masked]

---

From: Richard Barnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:34:17 -0400

[Removed IAB, IESG]

Thanks for bringing this up, Dan.

I share many of Tony's concerns, especially under his first heading. 
The scope of the proposed project is very broad, and overlaps 
significantly with existing standards developed at other SDOs (notably 
ECRIT).  I don't know enough about the IEEE organization to know whether 
the concerns about WG structure are valid, but if some organization is 
chartered with this work, they will need to coordinate very closely with 
  the groups that have been working on this problem or a while.

--Richard

Bernard Aboba wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>

---

From: "Bernard Aboba" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:25:22 +0200

After some discussion, it appears that the Emergency Services PAR proposal
is once
again being withdrawn, and replaced with a request to form an Executive
Committee
Study Group (ECSG).  Such a study group, if approved, would take issue a
Call for
Interest within IEEE 802, and would be focused on developing a future PAR,
most
probably outside of IEEE 802.21. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Barnes [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 10:34 PM
To: Bernard Aboba
Cc: 'Donald Eastlake'; 'Romascanu, Dan (Dan)'; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] New Project Approval Request (PAR) for IEEE 802.21.1 on
Emergency Services

[Removed IAB, IESG]

--Richard