From nobody Mon Nov 4 08:06:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6C0120B3E for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:06:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VDsM_svQprSy for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17755120B65 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476HjD75jxz1x0KF for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:06:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1572883585; bh=arJ6jApZ+eVMt4oQd/2KcsVlWqaSUk+H/ff9aiii5Ro=; h=Subject:References:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=fg4U+HkXY1lKQjh97j0Vj8xiYnive0gz3EKnb8DmZ72m1AiD3s8f0+GM7Al4ZOZxR +1gh323AE/jKM04QulZBtF0893jfctg3LceGu3X+i5NxydBcUNjSBTZt3o5fgz1tKs PMiMNWNTRh9BWROFdHtE9lo/xRCWgQs2n2tfOwjU= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 476HjD41BGz1x0K7 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:06:24 -0800 (PST) References: <157288324460.16605.5041963394720082043@ietfa.amsl.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org From: Joel Halpern X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <157288324460.16605.5041963394720082043@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <0ac10485-1b45-f034-5dc5-efc7289b7579@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:06:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <157288324460.16605.5041963394720082043@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 16:06:30 -0000 Eric and I have put together a very short draft making a very small update to RFC 2026. If the chairs consider it useful, I would be happy to stand up for a few minutes to explain why we are proposing this and answer questions. Thank you, Joel -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00.txt Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 08:00:44 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : IETF Stream Documents Require IETF Rough Consensus Authors : Joel M. Halpern Eric K. Rescorla Filename : draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00.txt Pages : 4 Date : 2019-11-04 Abstract: This document proposes that the IETF never publish any IEtF stream RFCs without IETF rough consensus. This updates RFC 2026. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Mon Nov 4 10:28:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165D112004A for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:28:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RhMaLk4wSukU for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 270C6120C37 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0249311950; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:28:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xiz5C7RVOMP1; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:28:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from [172.16.1.10] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A65A9311947; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:28:32 -0600 (CST) From: "Pete Resnick" To: "Joel Halpern" Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 12:28:31 -0600 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0ac10485-1b45-f034-5dc5-efc7289b7579@joelhalpern.com> References: <157288324460.16605.5041963394720082043@ietfa.amsl.com> <0ac10485-1b45-f034-5dc5-efc7289b7579@joelhalpern.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 18:28:40 -0000 On 4 Nov 2019, at 10:06, Joel Halpern wrote: > Eric and I have put together a very short draft making a very small > update to RFC 2026. If the chairs consider it useful, I would be > happy to stand up for a few minutes to explain why we are proposing > this and answer questions. That seems like a perfectly good item for the agenda. Consider it added. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Mon Nov 4 14:48:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F086C1200C4 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:48:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zBYfQPQbL64P for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACCC6120072 for ; Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id z24so7971639pgu.4 for ; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 14:48:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=j5wkbirnA+GXgNE5yACc49tlN36VzJBtwcFP5E0qvvE=; b=skg1qQ6OVBitjsL6D/+VBcu8Jntgl5fxBgiE+j5D1tlQKpZ7n+yZkOh7UGo34bAVom mxsI60I+u+eP55mMnnPLtJ24tRbsDDjUvAvsL8YEku7vYN+PVkyagLhnit2vD+R4xrCj UMPhSxuoleHCz1nxFT9lb/r1KLr6cKbD+BiKLToCaQmRRZcC5yMTMbU2u3PpoJiV9RzS Mjpy5kAeAJjMQ7yVEaYIdfSnuHHjcJynn+tDiEq8TJNI7BPSO1VbZny91AWVvd/T97Pi R+s6zJzDQrmQq4YUIOSiBq53smj9K0fyA7EYIEjb+8RrkJmuMovuQTZNE/iQthTsq1JX 5TnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=j5wkbirnA+GXgNE5yACc49tlN36VzJBtwcFP5E0qvvE=; b=rR+WkLj2aJ/LW+ouJ6YtU6jrMjaLhxL2VisMMEMkhPaWD0nb+7aJZXqkyTkOmRPTjI +H5K4We16Bf6sXBSCISOgTQQSSks/PMAYwWUVEohnICfEFyqSfZou0v1KHH1OmlWtbyj +RFTQZinOmxbjkQCHHjmUEyAMnRm0YMXqGythbn9jN7YIOx9b+1Blgg4G87TadnoVoP0 fnFNsnG3Z0M4qWTkfbdqIRte8bzltzW6na6FvrhoVWL5115Nkjl/Xj9eAg8Ikwe0/xvn XgqDGmbKYOvY0NOO7bzkPcdx3fJTxa2xRt4A58jR1a8/jFn0CFSTYr+7keurZNrlHQOs Eu7w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXcTm6Z1YagK2gFQPTwtAkndqSdEYZ9nSQA2JV51n7nx5ltqP60 dAplvJvAotPHeEyUrJ2vhmJL0OuU0Ms= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzmnM9q7HOVe/Q0md6UdBVYEN3r3MwcQBh+Vc9qjYFDR5wM95PMC2CAEBvENzSMqy8GsNo/Mw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:2942:: with SMTP id x2mr1992371pjf.119.1572907706627; Mon, 04 Nov 2019 14:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.216.38.14] (sc-cs-567-laptop.uoa.auckland.ac.nz. [130.216.38.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r24sm12111152pgu.46.2019.11.04.14.48.25 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Nov 2019 14:48:26 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:48:23 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 22:48:30 -0000 Hi, First a major nit: I-D expiry is mandated by RFC2026: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.1.2 The mention in RFC2418 is incidental. Then: > Forced expiration serves no purpose that is not adequately served by > the publication date on the document. A date of publication alone does not communicate that a draft is a draft and that, as BCP9 says: > * Under no circumstances should an Internet-Draft * > * be referenced by any paper, report, or Request- * > * for-Proposal, nor should a vendor claim compliance * > * with an Internet-Draft. * While the choice of 6 months might seem arbitary, the defined date of expiry IMHO helps to communicate to readers that a draft is only a draft. And it also acts as a signal that there might be a lack of momentum behind a proposal, if a draft has expired without being updated. Regards Brian On 05-Nov-19 11:27, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : Internet-Drafts Don't Expire > Author : Martin Thomson > Filename : draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt > Pages : 4 > Date : 2019-11-04 > > Abstract: > The long-standing insistence that Internet-Drafts carry expiration > dates is a concept that is no longer necessary. This document > removes requirements for expiration for Internet-Drafts from RFC > 2418/BCP 25. > > Note to Readers > > Discussion of this document takes place on the GENDISPATCH Working > Group mailing list (gendispatch@ietf.org), which is archived at > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/gendispatch/ [1]. > > Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at > https://github.com/martinthomson/no-expiry [2]. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > From nobody Tue Nov 5 15:14:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C82C12087A for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 15:14:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gidmm7rKhcLV for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 15:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4472A120C0E for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 15:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F18E933F67A; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 17:14:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3TIGG1VOv6zw; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 17:14:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from [172.16.1.18] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 149D0933F66F; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 17:14:22 -0600 (CST) From: "Pete Resnick" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, mt@lowentropy.net Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 17:14:17 -0600 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 23:14:36 -0000 Given that Martin isn't subscribed to the gendispatch list, I expect he'll need to be Cc'ed to see this. I have now done so. Martin, shall I take this to mean that you'd like agenda time in Singapore? pr On 4 Nov 2019, at 16:48, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > First a major nit: I-D expiry is mandated by RFC2026: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.1.2 > The mention in RFC2418 is incidental. > > Then: > >> Forced expiration serves no purpose that is not adequately served by >> the publication date on the document. > > A date of publication alone does not communicate that a draft is > a draft and that, as BCP9 says: > >> * Under no circumstances should an Internet-Draft * >> * be referenced by any paper, report, or Request- * >> * for-Proposal, nor should a vendor claim compliance * >> * with an Internet-Draft. * > > While the choice of 6 months might seem arbitary, the defined > date of expiry IMHO helps to communicate to readers that > a draft is only a draft. And it also acts as a signal that > there might be a lack of momentum behind a proposal, if a > draft has expired without being updated. > > Regards > Brian > > On 05-Nov-19 11:27, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> >> >> Title : Internet-Drafts Don't Expire >> Author : Martin Thomson >> Filename : draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt >> Pages : 4 >> Date : 2019-11-04 >> >> Abstract: >> The long-standing insistence that Internet-Drafts carry expiration >> dates is a concept that is no longer necessary. This document >> removes requirements for expiration for Internet-Drafts from RFC >> 2418/BCP 25. >> >> Note to Readers >> >> Discussion of this document takes place on the GENDISPATCH Working >> Group mailing list (gendispatch@ietf.org), which is archived at >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/gendispatch/ [1]. >> >> Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at >> https://github.com/martinthomson/no-expiry [2]. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry/ >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> I-D-Announce mailing list >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Tue Nov 5 16:17:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9C01200E9 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 16:17:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mJ9DLKOKtggB for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 16:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 406B81200C3 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 16:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id w11so5483151pga.12 for ; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 16:17:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vPko5XQ83HPzyFG3gQbEvyaLTr5l9+PRFN6e37kuYBE=; b=GBJ15ApoFpED5sB3s+9qHU8xtPTN+/Xn4/z23TbcTmh9mMFk18dZjUK+sDX4Cpjsn/ JhZpO2Hn2FzPJcwfSNTDOklf5uhdqkNlnlt3ByXByzKzS3V4Od7HzZW0ZCZRmA2sUNFq LrgPkTklUGahkGE8KW1PYKHCAUPXnK0Vqu+GD4LxCarktAS6uyBqOPofJkd3g6Ccw5CX ewJX4Y6ybdqS14vTSxXJZE7mP4+G2oAA6FWHI7npc5jXPmYEhiDEBot873+oz4RxMtJk Dddfccux1bqCSYYtw3zobR6LHukTDOWLytJfiBPFYjLfpqXzh2QsOekH+zoBkXcyQ6lQ 4oQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vPko5XQ83HPzyFG3gQbEvyaLTr5l9+PRFN6e37kuYBE=; b=jMG31odKfK5Zsz+qDkicxSyfhSkoOkhgEdT1VE9WxayxpZnxZWdjsgroranXG3B8gb 2C+BRrw0SzDOUxRnMKzT2JyxQ9BHkXBZNTiUkQ6FFz0dFBSxDSg8YGXco6QX4cPdPX5o nxzJPZD99i6seh8fmzITI2CX+k5f2ICbGF/93MJ+QUoo3WqusaF7fmaXpi3Zm6UVXuaD a88/WpMiO9NnxtfVJ6MOZaEGZ1P29rWZHZw+ggJo/vQzcpnCvbOdt4jpWSJ/mXRl5Rtq jfRlyXvFS7CLTz0l4NLli79EsSfOt4Jdgvltt0CykdfH58xeMJOf9cd1FTna1O5U7mt5 zNmA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXqkNg/AGPDhTmIUxpS6XwHbCByR3AqIQCZj5c0aiRzoovZ1FJQ n6WQqTDd24oWtkZ9y+flB0ZlVPGV X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxDHIagrIKKDEsoCPGEJc7lognbSb8X/Q7Z+1EZkgR4BDOgWoY5XKIqsgpALmd8twNfGXRXZg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:1914:: with SMTP id 20mr39230390pfz.68.1572999457393; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 16:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z7sm24683222pfr.165.2019.11.05.16.17.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Nov 2019 16:17:36 -0800 (PST) To: Joel Halpern , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <157288324460.16605.5041963394720082043@ietfa.amsl.com> <0ac10485-1b45-f034-5dc5-efc7289b7579@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <41336810-0405-c27b-abe5-cdac827c3a0b@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:17:34 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0ac10485-1b45-f034-5dc5-efc7289b7579@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 00:17:40 -0000 1. > The IETF MUST NOT publish RFCs on the IETF stream without IETF rough > consensus. Yes. I think that's become the de facto practice, and it certainly seems correct. 2. Do we want to start a trend of small updates for single items in RFC2026, or do we want to start a wider effort? I ask because, if we do start publishing one-sentence fixes like this one, there are liable to be a lot of them. Regards Brian On 05-Nov-19 05:06, Joel Halpern wrote: > Eric and I have put together a very short draft making a very small > update to RFC 2026. If the chairs consider it useful, I would be happy > to stand up for a few minutes to explain why we are proposing this and > answer questions. > > Thank you, > Joel > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00.txt > Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 08:00:44 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : IETF Stream Documents Require IETF Rough > Consensus > Authors : Joel M. Halpern > Eric K. Rescorla > Filename : draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00.txt > Pages : 4 > Date : 2019-11-04 > > Abstract: > This document proposes that the IETF never publish any IEtF stream > RFCs without IETF rough consensus. This updates RFC 2026. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-halpern-gendispatch-consensusinformational-00 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > From nobody Tue Nov 5 20:17:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D33120A63 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:17:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=ct+auZj/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=isO+xwkk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ObnJR1IKnaZ for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FF75120C11 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9161B21391; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 23:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 05 Nov 2019 23:17:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=glgyqnhssxyNPaIHj3MbWqtjWvfQ JSkvV6UgEXbi2Js=; b=ct+auZj/q3ot0JFJ0sjvGjw365w+G3hyVHD4ELfEDw9V muULFEtH7dOjtzbwVtGvQn5eOlonZYyBXg0yDJmV7Jvrg+EFb9/RT1YNaCqc5Y15 vjb9ENFPhcPSXZCOTNbbyrykC47y/yl5nLx9s06vuf1IfF+tIX8xbZebGNyT+7RN RjzMeU4QKOT6aCjAKb8R2NKf2BZ6Fz7P4M253DnUMErZMZNy0BLHpHcEz0s9fODb S4FIC0UUtYor+w54qzEusQ4VUy+2STMcZVcKFhNsroK44hLTWBx46AejDMQpqSsl HkQC8wzk3z9xEFbos/i3hFE/5oWAmhlxL8EBe4y3kA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=glgyqn hssxyNPaIHj3MbWqtjWvfQJSkvV6UgEXbi2Js=; b=isO+xwkk7BGYShIyOUfwVk iJs9LEdlQXOPQr3MGTpGxY4VhoQ0vGSwIM0eT0veppwqyJTPR0pbBlv6WQHODdc3 J4Wj/CuoaqkKCu+uqz+HrmW1q/0x/kgobpmLUu2+0NqRVWfHhKmp8YG/ToH/xJ89 x25B8d9YpnMcVglmNGpIz+3rKMZjwOpCslIVMsj4ESMYrxhy4Uf3b81aOiIqJb2z jlTKhmkiSV0qmmGIdTFcbXHkgZURVS2WVEpCqvQJ8qovAKyLOxTKyJo3vaOt2Zid 4/xyl/iO+L39hUTsN+pyVBE8qDrfZrEpdE/d0EYkZehoA5lilogkCPZ2k5Rk6VgA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduiedgieelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuff homhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id BA5A2E00A3; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 23:17:36 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-509-ge3ec61c-fmstable-20191030v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 15:17:16 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Pete Resnick" , "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] =?utf-8?q?I-D_Action=3A_draft-thomson-gendispatch-?= =?utf-8?q?no-expiry-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 04:17:44 -0000 On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, at 10:14, Pete Resnick wrote: > Given that Martin isn't subscribed to the gendispatch list, I expect > he'll need to be Cc'ed to see this. I have now done so. > > Martin, shall I take this to mean that you'd like agenda time in > Singapore? Sure, and thanks Pete. I thought that I was already subscribed. An error on my part. > On 4 Nov 2019, at 16:48, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > First a major nit: I-D expiry is mandated by RFC2026: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.1.2 > > The mention in RFC2418 is incidental. Section 6.1.2 talks about standards actions, duration of last calls, etc.. I couldn't find a single mention of draft expiration. Section 6.1.1 says: > It shall remain as an Internet-Draft for a period of time, not less than two weeks, [...] Which I guess could be read to infer an expiry time. If so, then I guess that this *could* update that too. It's a little too oblique to bother with. That period of time could be interpreted as "until the IETF is no more", without invalidating 2026 at all. > > While the choice of 6 months might seem arbitary, the defined > > date of expiry IMHO helps to communicate to readers that > > a draft is only a draft. And it also acts as a signal that > > there might be a lack of momentum behind a proposal, if a > > draft has expired without being updated. Is it not sufficient for the draft to indicate that it is a draft? I'm not proposing that we remove that notice. From nobody Tue Nov 5 20:38:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947741201EA for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:38:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DvI7U6L8_8cI for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA1FF12006F for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id k13so4936189pgh.3 for ; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 20:38:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PzoI9zVAprHVJxZLYYtdLdGLwCvo9Hzmf8vF2pOcVjc=; b=jA/UtZuqOnUppZ6L9wHwoQ8Hl+Wr3+Bd8Ipiam59vmGGgOLOmcNsjadFtIYMlmEy/B iD6m0fNrHxTv/f0llt43iWR8SPdYFg6O5eMtLf1DqqzQIQPhV8TAVzRJgFXf0gZ88J80 43nxBmYwz/y4pSEh4zvqIPAwWVB1Uu7QgrnpuqtZHs1fdRytgwPWIZdTHcKX6RfZvsbw SHUFBzanu6gVZ9xhDRw/xXWkBOCB4L+8u66exMoHeSPbypPhM+PxnmKEaLNcAjHFj3fJ km3fjlBzgttyCzRVlrQ+jVTzs04fgQDno+PdyOteG2L1Qb/ZKnYyKjlp4hV7Hu6QAHHl Dm+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=PzoI9zVAprHVJxZLYYtdLdGLwCvo9Hzmf8vF2pOcVjc=; b=jUsl3S2w3Pfd4oMC2mh0XV/D/wMcVzZOVb7JegjBmAisMSYEst7e8m4pLzLDuruZsc PvG3j/5LSsHmVOh+2uKdXnInH/OKSol4oH+AXvlQvTwOZTOS782IGmvC7hsH4C0j9qfO RmSCEdi1/b/HVI9cstHhmYSURtDx56n18I4RoFkGBrISA89ixIUt6gXwYIyb0euuUm/b /OmZ/K7OmycIi4DhoRgWmrqydoBpqeG3XpH4OZvgxXXwTGtzGS8hzM5cg3gwERjuY45v 8gIzTWWLB5MjyqQ6F+O06bjZv9z1bsVzfFx0VtL1QvdOxQIVFsxSkurux6aRgaMcDbmj yBqw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXMzp+P7BwHtim2O9O3EnsBF9fe7sz3RYoqTAAeajESX29q8WZr NTquu9R2D9JEe9UcZmYoo5oTaZGM X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy/qbonDGVKsPB0hbxzJhgCrhwE3uKoC15RRkWeeHz6XNBqS7lfOzn/LuFgPRd0ilZ6K9TRFA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:2d81:: with SMTP id t123mr575085pgt.306.1573015115862; Tue, 05 Nov 2019 20:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w62sm24102564pfb.15.2019.11.05.20.38.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Nov 2019 20:38:35 -0800 (PST) To: Martin Thomson , Pete Resnick Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <5544f9b3-8768-f164-ea07-fd2d8b789ef9@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:38:32 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 04:38:38 -0000 On 06-Nov-19 17:17, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, at 10:14, Pete Resnick wrote: >> Given that Martin isn't subscribed to the gendispatch list, I expect >> he'll need to be Cc'ed to see this. I have now done so. >> >> Martin, shall I take this to mean that you'd like agenda time in >> Singapore? > > Sure, and thanks Pete. I thought that I was already subscribed. An error on my part. > >> On 4 Nov 2019, at 16:48, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> First a major nit: I-D expiry is mandated by RFC2026: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-6.1.2 >>> The mention in RFC2418 is incidental. > > Section 6.1.2 talks about standards actions, duration of last calls, etc.. I couldn't find a single mention of draft expiration. My stupid error, sorry. Try https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-2.2: An Internet-Draft that is published as an RFC, or that has remained unchanged in the Internet-Drafts directory for more than six months without being recommended by the IESG for publication as an RFC, is simply removed from the Internet-Drafts directory. That's where the expiry thing originated. > > Section 6.1.1 says: > >> It shall remain as an Internet-Draft for a period of time, not less than two weeks, [...] > > Which I guess could be read to infer an expiry time. If so, then I guess that this *could* update that too. It's a little too oblique to bother with. That period of time could be interpreted as "until the IETF is no more", without invalidating 2026 at all. > >>> While the choice of 6 months might seem arbitary, the defined >>> date of expiry IMHO helps to communicate to readers that >>> a draft is only a draft. And it also acts as a signal that >>> there might be a lack of momentum behind a proposal, if a >>> draft has expired without being updated. > > Is it not sufficient for the draft to indicate that it is a draft? I'm not proposing that we remove that notice. Well, one of our chronic problems is that nobody reads the boilerplate anyway. Either way, I still like the expiry date but of course we need more than just your and my opinion. Brian > From nobody Tue Nov 5 22:09:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEEBF120122 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:09:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=krNe9NfR; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Hn4Mb7kA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O-kvBrJDakcJ for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:09:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491E2120809 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:09:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6645F3E5; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 01:09:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=X17p87DccJaiTjjSjf9pksun38Mf bc2lZBttoyOpq9w=; b=krNe9NfRkOxLt7EyhLKkFJRGvFUq1mbBvbCCQCEy/sO/ Vw2OwY5HLd/+QHJt9BXwMAkoL2VhGkqNeKIeFeVDc1ajjdiNdCSF3AgSChyhrv44 vpz6EqyIif80gjdR3DHiIef5nwy502GBb+J/ODVhSBLQPpqPjvs5T0LTkTMgNIjN IdWN9g0gm7U1KNg8pG3pIzg4MgMPFnvCd7FJrjtOut+flbgOnyaNwUppLZYmzhXs OOHgAEBD40GRFQJq7qwZAMkR+sEXzy0E+hk9WG7SAMbwP5CTgJfBYXHgKXIUfnrz yKARkIyZBfLG/ECiQYnwgP4qjP3vbep5/ZeDdqrYsw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=X17p87 DccJaiTjjSjf9pksun38Mfbc2lZBttoyOpq9w=; b=Hn4Mb7kAqsvra5DvvxNL9A fdpdXxx6PvZtys9vl69171Bvdnae17ha5TYoTCXnIgFm0/rQiH6o5aT7q6ANjysT S7HjK4zpIe/1UnCYvcvfHyPdDciNfeoNlZ6S2YLvV2tBXuXng3b3WBhTCPeay7IY zcsJ7cAlnxiKwx2galVsc0GEyricd8tSjyqC3WBxI2YS0yR+EnrC2N2dZxgAWL09 1HOTqAoH+ZMHxJeI+5ptUDyKZwctCPA40zygGjsO9oiMa+SpvIycRzfhC0Cptfr6 NvEYRn0Ou8KwUSHFxVQJbd3gg6x9T5prW1ynQhWvcRPYo9VO3ib66ZbCfxRPXdvg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduiedgledvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuff homhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id A35D9E00A3; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:09:07 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-509-ge3ec61c-fmstable-20191030v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <7885d8fb-18a7-484d-87a8-44bd45aa6e14@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5544f9b3-8768-f164-ea07-fd2d8b789ef9@gmail.com> References: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> <5544f9b3-8768-f164-ea07-fd2d8b789ef9@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:08:47 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , "Pete Resnick" Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] =?utf-8?q?I-D_Action=3A_draft-thomson-gendispatch-?= =?utf-8?q?no-expiry-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:09:11 -0000 On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, at 15:38, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > My stupid error, sorry. Try https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2026#section-2.2: > > An Internet-Draft that is published as an RFC, or that has remained > unchanged in the Internet-Drafts directory for more than six months > without being recommended by the IESG for publication as an RFC, is > simply removed from the Internet-Drafts directory. > > That's where the expiry thing originated. Ahh, I somehow managed to miss that in multiple searches. Yes, that is an oversight. > Well, one of our chronic problems is that nobody reads the boilerplate > anyway. Either way, I still like the expiry date but of course we need > more than just your and my opinion. Sure. I appreciate that. Maybe having a few minutes to discuss this will help us decide whether or not holding to our positions is worthwhile. BTW, part of my motivation is a (small) reduction in the size of the boilerplate. I can probably find more aggressive edits if people were amenable to further changes. "THIS IS A DRAFT" might be small enough to be noticed. But I wanted to test the waters more than anything else. From nobody Tue Nov 5 22:29:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F5312087C for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:29:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Wl_hI8GGAb6 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9A90120B05 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF29523; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 01:29:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ObnSUfdb/WuQlkoG/i/vSbi6ufAzqgLqYocPxzrfz bM=; b=IShCqjJavZAWoAIqXqpL6dGtL2hZhtjU7Ycqb0En+vbGCMRYt84ASwtny PGM2QfkFsFHCsCgDVhdPT7Y/L1zdiSD9WfLrr+iNLI9Zj1V5hXeoeCDab/NoKF/j dwtWe81i2ydB2PFdB1cv6fGq9+jcvwWs96m3xj8+LJS7v820KJ4T4+NJCGJhNAuL L6zeHLOgJKw+UBk2Iw0YDm9uzFXja8vv1rpXUVmz0LOf2KFouxktNEH2ohY49WTw E9i2OOEv7U5vaa1SF2Bban75hVmSSCMdaehzRyb3mfbq+uQC+jwtiKTDh5lZyVSd RU1+jlKp5E4WxWka8q35bWFGvLd+w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduiedgleeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 56E4F80059; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:29:48 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> <5544f9b3-8768-f164-ea07-fd2d8b789ef9@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <5a4db692-a5b5-9bd2-e71d-629010e7a303@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:29:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5544f9b3-8768-f164-ea07-fd2d8b789ef9@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:29:52 -0000 On 11/5/19 11:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Well, one of our chronic problems is that nobody reads the boilerplate anyway. Either way, I still like the expiry date but of course we need more than just your and my opinion. I like the expiry date also.   At the very least it helps people see, to a rough approximation, which internet-drafts are being maintained and which are not. I also think that if one is searching for a particular (current) I-D, the default search results shouldn't be flooded with drafts that are arbitrarily old.  But maybe that's the only purpose that an expiry date serves any more.    If a WG wants to adopt a draft that's > 6 months old, I don't see why they shouldn't do so. Keith From nobody Tue Nov 5 22:33:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B70D8120CEF for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:32:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=HKvT2IUb; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=OAs4eotl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5WlFfUaG0Mh2 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA771120D30 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF703E0 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 01:32:46 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=yKvp3 S1qSokuA2zyrMqOtWK9COt6j9zOZbLx6XhWtQ4=; b=HKvT2IUb+zm7R1Dj9GPbY RTShMipm5fL0QUDc4XKcSUc69BZpnxydReHtQ0nf/FMYmdsNyjsq22vxdoXbfvZH +Ys2F2FQ860/vRGGRVhHE6ucadg7LEEBLO4xY3Wx/p/AXoJBuvlUpfmKpL4ccKYA VXG4HMrPnkGPXb5fjesHZZcVccudTe3oDAmCEI0bygwN7bmZ8Xn97ose9GyDO2Fk BnxECGW5v0oDPATO1lxTmgZKdvGeFu3YxmJiIFkCJHJRuo95pMRBFX3o7Ed6waK0 4/cHGEpdc4Wy7X/0VQfT39hnD0sc/8DDxbbooXj+Oodv9OMlBLUdXZgTdRuaX0VT Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=yKvp3S1qSokuA2zyrMqOtWK9COt6j9zOZbLx6XhWt Q4=; b=OAs4eotlkplzgfmPXxuTJoK5SD4bs3Ku29icB2zFidXboGh84zc9dMZ75 qayQeRYEvw+X+G9g6s51iGe8AcDdA/Jw9b+3TEJbn5ZsrCHuGV5IFQt2fquoZFWp h0JaSymIVadS7pLnGxhhP5gHqo+OxNkRbK9u16zt11AxE+H9JAYzqbVv3rip6xuY KBsyaiZHZ1vhLd2lary21Ddsh5CYrz3JplEODXFAlu2kRiBatbBnbyRudUlkEnPh 6AUuMpdXqzFNYrfNYyr5neWZQ3ekEgTqDe56BXyaxFaS+lXCmLRwgFeKFk+MKCxD X4SLnAOFxp78xREc0WyjTO0i444cQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduiedgleejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesth hqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslh hofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 683C0E00A3; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:32:45 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-509-ge3ec61c-fmstable-20191030v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <98531b31-ce02-4b5f-a0ba-f42c71bc19d0@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5a4db692-a5b5-9bd2-e71d-629010e7a303@network-heretics.com> References: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> <5544f9b3-8768-f164-ea07-fd2d8b789ef9@gmail.com> <5a4db692-a5b5-9bd2-e71d-629010e7a303@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:32:25 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] =?utf-8?q?I-D_Action=3A_draft-thomson-gendispatch-?= =?utf-8?q?no-expiry-00=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:32:59 -0000 On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, at 17:29, Keith Moore wrote: > I like the expiry date also.=C2=A0=C2=A0 At the very least it helps pe= ople see, to=20 > a rough approximation, which internet-drafts are being maintained and=20= > which are not. >=20 > I also think that if one is searching for a particular (current) I-D,=20= > the default search results shouldn't be flooded with drafts that are=20= > arbitrarily old.=C2=A0=20 How is the date of publication not sufficient for both of those use case= s? From nobody Tue Nov 5 22:51:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BA71208D7 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:51:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U_FbdtvKeakq for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:51:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 504BA12002F for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:51:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD244AB; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 01:51:46 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=0SlAdS0MponsjRwvWVuQ4IFjw5l3ALPHQ/my5B9p7 DU=; b=Yv/ZqlCTEYtFl4aANSbeinMhofobYjmfgaMc42g0egN6uVQ7ISoF2yQDY 9Dy1tObiExp/f2MJAoojJRSHm2FuYKZ07BMv1apeKK3CbprPow8ra7JPzIemAY0A 5SgwsdhjdV1r/OVaEXCWI1wwwwQbF4frcR5cYtsc3v2V/yW6cjOQapUeCK8oBm1m aaFGsRRfAfteZUtixIoYBNoxazRyEXurhH4io2CRmgWHNTSTp/QiwIrkkGOMaG0k Zv6VeeFaX/I6KlS4nBsXVJ0Jw8Ewv/uzyOGisULfz3fkbS48SUQW9aiAx3Gz+haU D2mQrBGNlItyCP8dxt+FGAoC4MMlw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudduiedguddttdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrd duheenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgv rhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 587C28005A; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:51:45 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> <5544f9b3-8768-f164-ea07-fd2d8b789ef9@gmail.com> <5a4db692-a5b5-9bd2-e71d-629010e7a303@network-heretics.com> <98531b31-ce02-4b5f-a0ba-f42c71bc19d0@www.fastmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 01:51:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <98531b31-ce02-4b5f-a0ba-f42c71bc19d0@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 06:51:49 -0000 On 11/6/19 1:32 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, at 17:29, Keith Moore wrote: >> I like the expiry date also.   At the very least it helps people see, to >> a rough approximation, which internet-drafts are being maintained and >> which are not. >> >> I also think that if one is searching for a particular (current) I-D, >> the default search results shouldn't be flooded with drafts that are >> arbitrarily old. >> >> How is the date of publication not sufficient for both of those use cases? Maybe I don't understand the question.   As I see it, since we stopped actually making drafts inaccessible after six months, six months became just a convention for whether a draft is being actively maintained and for whether it's reported in default search results.   I think it's a useful convention for those purposes, but one could certainly implement it without actually having (for example) separate repositories. On the other hand, if the only change you're proposing is to remove one line from the I-D header (and associated metadata) and change the boilerplate, I frankly don't think it's worth the expenditure of energy on the part of IETF, IESG, RFC editor, tools team, etc., that would be required to do that.   There doesn't seem to be an obvious benefit to justify doing that work, and it sort of looks like change for the sake of change.  (otherwise known as "action bias").   The -00 I-D also leaves unstated whether there's any significance at all to the six month figure and that seems like an undesirable ambiguity. Keith From nobody Wed Nov 6 11:30:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483C61208BB for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:30:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rg31znded8mo for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:30:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52c.google.com (mail-pg1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7B6012089B for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id l24so17820147pgh.10 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 11:30:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KlKSshCz0iItEaNNINXqCeLadAjZZr4imhehO+Vy9PM=; b=cgBqbInzA02BSgfxPkGJx/6/o/zKlNmXIsUSzWA6iHs6es8sdcXzrKM6HiI3GS17kZ ESeD0jtd1eKC0tcaC/9k3/b86BppyAhFxXioCsfCt7kyeqYsBywTjX0v4NyRvTVCUXAX pdYOhyz71w1G6jpz5My6oMJCzZ7XnSi2NnvgurerOFZqQ14mEW5fY2MO5Qa0tJyKVqKQ +uRvkqvFm8rZjLrYKgXqnhkaxlnNyRGu9H2ocFL8iXjHe3Z7R2lOWv4+n2UtEiEeshtF 8m+FAuL99DTlVUxYUfC1RkP4rXgX4lpyxGEVe4NVcbF8rsDqcRmMmyK19JHWn9ahzMkB 2qFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KlKSshCz0iItEaNNINXqCeLadAjZZr4imhehO+Vy9PM=; b=eskzXSfa4UIzOYfue5y8KAw2I5/vdJ9W0jbIrhQNURbn4A7LtYqyIDgpW+GCJVMj/R 4wveQgFjRvFLlDmj7m3QWM1jJUiwLHGshTrBqYkWShfubiXqVC/FJdxxauy6vuIi6aE1 k6pP5HhJ9RAFv3p0ydkoi5mO5wrE9UcKPVR/Ycw1cQbWXN847GSOCz1eQMH+yWAwU6xb qYSp1uLPnzADxKypHRLivKbeEqngfmkoMu41iJjYcWqSfv4C3D8q9+uWeKKLLRJM668/ iMh5uTF10hfhsjal9c+OoVVjiy9ldx09oYpAQ2kfQ41JtNCaH1bfPH/5H15BEzxDrz3h I+5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV8aKwbdfGF9qFm/kzuX6rVw9OfskC7eFacaiz4crfiTSJBBtrR 1Twz4zWOa87hH8Anftm/HvjUmEZI X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz1rY1xJtDCAve7ffz0QM7LAwiF1XcQSNVcmiiYhZ9QIoAOaGCc+k6oBV4u8lk89cTqH8LtGQ== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9a86:: with SMTP id w6mr5351542pfi.169.1573068645194; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 11:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r11sm3595324pjp.14.2019.11.06.11.30.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 11:30:44 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <157290645420.13916.12275765354821078575@ietfa.amsl.com> <5544f9b3-8768-f164-ea07-fd2d8b789ef9@gmail.com> <5a4db692-a5b5-9bd2-e71d-629010e7a303@network-heretics.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <683e304c-fa5c-bb42-19a1-855c3d61fb4f@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:30:43 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5a4db692-a5b5-9bd2-e71d-629010e7a303@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:30:51 -0000 On 06-Nov-19 19:29, Keith Moore wrote: > On 11/5/19 11:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 >> Well, one of our chronic problems is that nobody reads the boilerplate= anyway. Either way, I still like the expiry date but of course we need m= ore than just your and my opinion. >=20 > I like the expiry date also.=C2=A0=C2=A0 At the very least it helps peo= ple see, to=20 > a rough approximation, which internet-drafts are being maintained and=20 > which are not. >=20 > I also think that if one is searching for a particular (current) I-D,=20 > the default search results shouldn't be flooded with drafts that are=20 > arbitrarily old.=C2=A0=20 Yes, that's an important practical point. I regularly make use of the 3rd= radio button in the tracker's "Additional search criteria ", namely "Internet-Draft (expired, replaced or withdrawn)". If there was no standa= rd expiry lifetime, I'd need an "older than..." button instead. More work fo= r the tools team... > But maybe that's the only purpose that an expiry date=20 > serves any more.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If a WG wants to adopt a draft that'= s > 6 months=20 > old, I don't see why they shouldn't do so. Indeed, although current practice seems to be to ask the authors to post an updated version. Brian From nobody Mon Nov 18 02:51:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C98D120915 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:51:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qi6FeXROc4Ys for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ve1eur02on061f.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe06::61f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AA5E120916 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 02:51:46 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=JN5pRggzOy+ypJDBY6pB3//1JBfcJfFC4KU2cWk97VS/a02h+VmhHUBEbRwU6/ZTOqmpJgwiy3V5FmHJYeUIhooBy7PiTozer7dqV/v6dHoDbDEnXcew+pArB9VMCiEh04qE7Jo/t4vrAnVWHX7LFtjHyCnGDSyzdM9C+xpE77IRkothAdG4rrNGVdefwxftwIU3jEFRSZ2m/Tgbt4utzGiNcFIrOK6JsFTF9geCnaRyVLwxh/ssTGjLm7BY6n7qQlb0EUgQ3znBzyX5ONA3+HMlig1VJEkw0Vi58Le7avhJqVpirNk+x1/U98aqLRLUhiKPXMeUIiGiiJZszVz5jg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=BDO7bwEJJOEnd2eQJ90aJVAYTOSeeTgkHJfUnsii5rI=; b=TWvOTFCAB+WuxYlgom+xeplf+0ZdY+F2NNeKhNLBlPXm3riQpS/aCWx+y+0oIXd+CXBKp+mG9AOrkuSFEai+TrSon4ZAAFJznXgeCs8gWSgbKEAVIop/m5VNOKusVnW7RyuPdTf5sB60zcqK+IKeh6DaJnqdAsNuASSMIcMx91kBsgQrWS/SvDvk9YQhk/W5fj1fkyju8qewAFsIrm+X9/36T5tjzwrgheJIcDUgTKoFGhXOFCKdJ30/uP/6gAoPqwEC7+ZtBdfukQmHgtkhPCSHceFZw6CR0iV7JtmKailfBrR0jXR1OrslzAcj83s9YEmKaOLMjNz7WKPNTVpWiw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=BDO7bwEJJOEnd2eQJ90aJVAYTOSeeTgkHJfUnsii5rI=; b=fQ20AKBUaBVjz7OrUI9xxK/C35FzWAspSSfDKwLR2Wf8vuPBjxH9f3SDq2FjTDPeXFjt04Qsj5Gle3mNgYSJlkjgQeMFpqNBjf0URYlEKiUSKaNLt67+wE4Pt7At+BCSLylsOI3rUxNEJ/OkBtu/4f00Q33umKxMjLocs5JS93E= Received: from HE1PR07MB4169.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.176.165.153) by HE1PR07MB3131.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.170.245.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2474.13; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:51:44 +0000 Received: from HE1PR07MB4169.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::21e5:eaae:99ed:41ac]) by HE1PR07MB4169.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::21e5:eaae:99ed:41ac%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2474.012; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:51:44 +0000 From: John Mattsson To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHVnf4qbc36RtaU3ke4xySjs0UqpQ== Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:51:44 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1e.0.191013 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=john.mattsson@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [31.133.150.156] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6331d4c5-1e91-47bf-edec-08d76c154d7c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR07MB3131: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0225B0D5BC x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(376002)(346002)(366004)(136003)(39860400002)(199004)(189003)(5660300002)(6116002)(99286004)(66066001)(3846002)(186003)(5640700003)(58126008)(86362001)(6512007)(316002)(478600001)(476003)(6506007)(6246003)(486006)(44832011)(6486002)(25786009)(2906002)(26005)(229853002)(33656002)(561944003)(6436002)(2351001)(66476007)(66946007)(6916009)(91956017)(66556008)(102836004)(76116006)(64756008)(66446008)(81156014)(81166006)(8936002)(14444005)(2616005)(256004)(71190400001)(1730700003)(71200400001)(8676002)(7736002)(305945005)(14454004)(36756003)(66574012)(2501003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:HE1PR07MB3131; H:HE1PR07MB4169.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: KS8OljZ/n52QSyY9Z1dgwK4UEd6gB7vu7PpJZoLEUIDsZuBQ/tP4MDqs/FIMRaU+GTz3244Amx7/xcPnVHN6F3awsgoVyWZv6w5slcpL1RSNFdrZB681n7pz8fCjoUIaSjyYDdXaKGKxP1JvzdiCcWD6tM4fGSAxnwrouEiiqx1D72V090gpncOOThfuBPap436/GPlyRiWxGz7lpCCYsIxfKeoX4eMqyF6pu2FTQ6rptkfi3QeikMqhZtkeJZwUof5Z8q5lCGKutYxM8/P7DbY/YnN1f1tuqHlElyihqUJ8Yy78tB7T/cHV5199gXQ6u9bD3R3+jRHflKyfWlC0NZ3gNRsPapxTekVgULfn0ogB0VXPPxMH2zPHClw65/vD8jSAR2xIBg6r0oiMMRpXtXBq+OV5wyg/OM+onCxOljMxUdNfSi/eV+kU4LTdDsGF x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <5B8572F243418B40B541EC1A8C508C7E@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6331d4c5-1e91-47bf-edec-08d76c154d7c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2019 10:51:44.5131 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: J6U/4csJdyLDFkm+9FzwzsnNpsxgx1o4fBGiScozUW3FR3VU6EHRDZb/gYJX4DNr/QW4LpC8lDk9iDHucwbWExIsXyHA5f3z6tb1brRlmsM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB3131 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:51:53 -0000 SSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBhcmd1bWVudHMgcHV0IGZvcndhcmQgaW4gdGhpcyBkcmFmdC4gSSBh Z3JlZSB0aGF0IGV4cGlyeSBzaG91bGQgYmUgcmVtb3ZlZCwgYW55IG5lZ2F0aXZlIHNob3J0Y29t aW5ncyBvZiB0aGlzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBzb2x2ZWQgYnkgdXBkYXRlcyB0byB0aGUgdG9vbHMuIElm IGEgZHJhZnQgdW5kZXIgc3BlY2lhbCBjb25kaXRpb25zIGRvZXMgbm90IGV4cGlyeSBhbHJlYWR5 IHRvZGF5LCBoYXZpbmcgYW4gZXhwaXJ5IGRhdGUgaW4gdGhlIGFjdHVhbCBkcmFmdCBpcyBldmVu IHdyb25nIChpdCBpcyB0aGVuIG1vcmUgZXhwZWN0ZWQgZXhwaXJ5KS4NCg0KU29tZSBjb21tZW50 cyBvbiB0aGUgTkVXIHRleHQgKHRoZSBjb21tZW50cyBhcmUgbW9yZSByZWxhdGVkIHRvIFJGQyAy NDE4IHRoYW4gZHJhZnQtdGhvbXNvbi1nZW5kaXNwYXRjaC1uby1leHBpcnkpDQoNCiAgICJORVc6 DQoNCiAgICAgIEludGVybmV0LURyYWZ0cyBhcmUgZHJhZnQgZG9jdW1lbnRzIHRoYXQgbWF5IGJl IHVwZGF0ZWQsIHJlcGxhY2VkLA0KICAgICAgb3Igb2Jzb2xldGVkIGJ5IG90aGVyIGRvY3VtZW50 cyBhdCBhbnkgdGltZS4gIEl0IGlzIGluYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUNCiAgICAgIHRvIHVzZSBJbnRlcm5l dC1EcmFmdHMgYXMgcmVmZXJlbmNlIG1hdGVyaWFsIG9yIHRvIGNpdGUgdGhlbSBvdGhlcg0KICAg ICAgdGhhbiBhcyAid29yayBpbiBwcm9ncmVzcy4iDQoNClRoZSB0ZXh0IG9uIGNpdGluZyBzZWVt cyB0byBub3QgYWxpZ24gd2l0aCB0aGUgdGV4dCBpbiBSRkMgMjQxOA0KDQogICAgICIqICAgVW5k ZXIgbm8gY2lyY3Vtc3RhbmNlcyBzaG91bGQgYW4gSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnQgICAgKg0KICAgICAg KiAgIGJlIHJlZmVyZW5jZWQgYnkgYW55IHBhcGVyLCByZXBvcnQsIG9yIFJlcXVlc3QtICAgICoN CiAgICAgICogICBmb3ItUHJvcG9zYWwsIG5vciBzaG91bGQgYSB2ZW5kb3IgY2xhaW0gY29tcGxp YW5jZSAqDQogICAgICAqICAgd2l0aCBhbiBJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdC4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgKiINCg0KQWxzbyB0aGUgd29yZGluZyAidXBkYXRlZCwgcmVwbGFjZWQsIG9y IG9ic29sZXRlZCIgY2FuIGVhc2lseSBiZSBjb25mdXNlZCB3aXRoIHRoZSB0ZXJtaW5vbG9neSAi dXBkYXRlcyIgYW5kICJvYnNvbGV0ZXMiIHRoYXQgYXJlIHVzZWQgZm9yIFJGQ3MuIA0KDQovSm9o bg0KDQo= From nobody Mon Nov 18 16:04:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D572E12012E for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:04:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BwMp6lggjJFG for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0E2112012A for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id r18so10378484pgu.13 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:04:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=99H3O11M4SIu4PGG03ZWBezM/YhHhD0Z1cs8B2tr540=; b=a1Nbg8jJXwpjAuQW8A9t1baSiTRZtjtL5KySarw/QVNzSngEUdxYlH6j/4d0ol/qeo OUVcxb9CdsTRlkmKhVFA+Ei/kF8buepps+Ig1x8woPY/EFGLzzMivnKuo9VAbjG+FBUW l6hMrJQ8Kwdztt83WLaRwA3Dap2Jxipv7vUG83EUZaFfk9NSvyxD1Cbq0z7Iv7mvBWY6 yx6/tPZPWy+vZCaXvT1grliHVEeTIisbO3Sc6DByq4GRMQBJaVvlpCnCsR6z60zKvH6I zl9OSDzE1/GAfYwVK3FtJ2lCCxMy1Wdx+8A/sxTmaoswlOGw0B0RIX6xjkcOEUONj/ET WJtw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=99H3O11M4SIu4PGG03ZWBezM/YhHhD0Z1cs8B2tr540=; b=uJKYp2uvr6p8mdrPQXasDPjd1xkNCy+sLQkYjW1Z/KlAi0hEhgxYl21mPk3fpFauK1 badbZ/Ea+ognqssDLZ/DwQHNdQR95eh+U+nhxG7bLKjyorKY/VmoURCZn0SL3WKH3yxa EqVtgafrF83Lygl/jJ7MhhDiaB6QS3PvgrLxDJ0lrBHLn9rfbLk7NEACG3Ucf2aNRQEE T6LjSPn3gTKfxop4L7NBunjhb65p/GfVvZ01GLz5avB4jS1+gn6f3lUqvhlmhHP3aJgF vmkejHP/9j26O9v6QFAf1PJSdS2fFrBflW7ptmpUM0XpELqzjW0lOuOQlwCs0mTXSU1L Otgg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXYomnSjqPyVBUhgqhabxaO3P88O9BtSj3694l0Y+For6l55i2+ FZ5xz8yyDgjWAV/yu62FXIHT79WC X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzSVt8p36Dc7A8i8E5FXnkaHn6H6nOFErCG+GKFprviyntW+Yluxd81FkcE1xP5Ijn8D9C0eg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:1624:: with SMTP id w36mr2028377pgl.404.1574121876147; Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [31.133.158.74] (dhcp-9e4a.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.158.74]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o15sm26789320pgf.2.2019.11.18.16.04.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:04:35 -0800 (PST) To: John Mattsson , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <446ac4ec-69f3-def5-0cc7-7267c84ae213@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 13:04:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:04:39 -0000 John, On 18-Nov-19 23:51, John Mattsson wrote: > I agree with the arguments put forward in this draft. I agree that expiry should be removed, any negative shortcomings of this should be solved by updates to the tools. That doesn't come free. I don't see the alleged harm done by the expiry date as serious enough to be worth fixing (for real $$). In particular, this from earlier discussion: >>> I also think that if one is searching for a particular (current) I-D, >>> the default search results shouldn't be flooded with drafts that are >>> arbitrarily old. >> >> Yes, that's an important practical point. I regularly make use of the 3rd >> radio button in the tracker's "Additional search criteria ", namely >> "Internet-Draft (expired, replaced or withdrawn)". If there was no standard >> expiry lifetime, I'd need an "older than..." button instead. More work for >> the tools team... > If a draft under special conditions does not expiry already today, having an expiry date in the actual draft is even wrong (it is then more expected expiry). Well, it's not really *wrong* - it's more of a reminder that the IETF is really slow in progressing its work sometimes. > Some comments on the NEW text (the comments are more related to RFC 2418 than draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry) > > "NEW: > > Internet-Drafts are draft documents that may be updated, replaced, > or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate > to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other > than as "work in progress." > > The text on citing seems to not align with the text in RFC 2418 > > "* Under no circumstances should an Internet-Draft * > * be referenced by any paper, report, or Request- * > * for-Proposal, nor should a vendor claim compliance * > * with an Internet-Draft. *" I don't see an inconsistency; the boilerplate is a summary. BTW that text is in RFC 2026, not 2418. > Also the wording "updated, replaced, or obsoleted" can easily be confused with the terminology "updates" and "obsoletes" that are used for RFCs. Huh? They are perfectly valid words with the same meaning in both cases. Regards Brian From nobody Tue Nov 19 19:22:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58140120236 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:22:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=Ard8LdA/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=J8Nbh5X/ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QwgEKuPVS3Y5 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38C9E12002E for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01BAC427 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 22:22:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Nov 2019 22:22:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=30IqMMoZ1RW62XbyK7PT1ZyqVGLXGSho+miJ36/DeVY=; b=Ard8LdA/ ZBnuxcsX8vmORXfieinbtSUtRFBdTd/eD9W2UI9Jwc59+dIj8q06sM9Te1uCA5YO Lu3V4NHOecwFijNxfer4myKpRGGmZLT9K7wnSCapO11mjcf4wsogAKl6pnjvW5Nl gJGaNPLDLC/oFkjZ2InBf9qsL1+yLD8JiUOVlBVVVZhzcY0TeW5o6wDOZJuxNbt6 s3YMHO3F5JdEyioL7O5cSdk/R1+CD9N449/jxVOhJWaBpj4oW80tA7X2NzCNn991 9LtdC2Q+CXmpcH5QhPeh/QyhPtx99oTHfdkGT+XV/MMKa/hqGxmSpnGawX2gtWDS fITh3oqTTwud9Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=30IqMMoZ1RW62XbyK7PT1ZyqVGLXG Sho+miJ36/DeVY=; b=J8Nbh5X/vccPDtdHAiD9zEGXjmtZWQ2lm5LnzD+HnKKte yP2n7Hlpp/JQr6Siz9LmVm0kN/53F2IqROO2w+A8vx8NslPsJ0fBf4pbuT0T729G 3cSZXIG9CvryrgXdqEk50Kub8EhbvuHLeiuofMy2wN7aiOS+4/eCJsLJZHs2BI1s AtOIu39nt/+iZeDmt1RFwI/0XRo9WCWyBfSc5kaRhvzGwyOO0/5MrkPyklrMQOXQ 1iRXKid3FLM8laHmvr68N+8uBmAd8brQrksHZhK6MAmXgGtie9m/c9fz8D4wTxpk qsoRieSpaKDwSHoGYMmAvqo38L+o4wqgrnsQowfgg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudegledgheekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfffhffvufgtsehttdertd erredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigv nhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvg hnthhrohhphidrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6D395E00A3; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 22:22:42 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-578-g826f590-fmstable-20191119v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 11:22:09 +0800 From: "Martin Thomson" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Feedback on removing draft expiration X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 03:22:46 -0000 I talked to stream managers and RSE. From those people acting as stream managers, there was no reason to object to a change like this. That said, as individuals, those same people expressed sentiments ranging from "doesn't matter at all" to "terrible idea". I'm going to ask for wider feedback (IRSG, IAB, and ISEB in particular), but believe that it is appropriate for the IETF to make this decision. As ekr observed, the boilerplate clearly identifies drafts as working documents of the IETF, even when they are clearly intended for IRTF discussion, IAB program input, or submitted for independent submission. The draft needs a minor revision anyway; I intend to do that prior to asking for feedback. From nobody Tue Nov 26 05:45:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2591200FF; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:45:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8S2Xs1zlM1YM; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:45:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70084.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F18B12009C; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:45:25 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Zel50Tj0X5K10QBK65IQdlrkH70kgrqW6NVqYyAvAaDIF/Z8gfIZZOYhZGy0kjQrAmYBeRnUA2y9IZI7wgNa4zXhW3cc5KivDCoS7leNuz0MQARFCE8EJjpGQJGGw2Tu3Sdh5dgu9CDQGLL4AxndjNwUhHG+oD26MGaIrJaAlJ6S0URcEjLbQnp7oPiogoIFbWVYGomzZbh4bTaEziZCkiggyx3UUOXCKL3zZYYylCnAn8GJQjpbc5QteLpteqjNwSn5ntgizspCmfiQ7VxXADoNlA+RCYV6KADOgftkBgnVII4HGSYGfNHyq9LMosAnwNfBaITiroE0ZHvPp0Jrjg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=5+N8MZwnUHVRsFdMH1wAMWL5SVQqPwAK3vOeiKQTJJ0=; b=nTa/8Zpwev9j8H0jH0Dt7IyTK54aSjN6E+CEyylsx4Xw9wMo9T/jskW2xJgFDRuwKXn6rF+bh7r4o/VDweK+i8UvTPBhNMS3iZLU+NqZHHlyei/cXr4qe9D28KEY5LwRFsaBxAn4HzM6mPxL8pXmPMm4VnXdM6KudcRtKIBp1rFz9ou7fec7rPhfj5Ulf9EzS3Xeb7ilXIsNFodqaHfodw5ODJuTVZRKL4iP9IN/I2MEOCX0byCa76z/TzxTuICXfowBaTd1KyAxeNeCiaHMDW/mHh4M6JETUrz7tGBA744lTp4k6uZ0OQxuPOzX1K2GfUE6eJ0TZ+1jUpExHSVCKA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=5+N8MZwnUHVRsFdMH1wAMWL5SVQqPwAK3vOeiKQTJJ0=; b=D6R/X78Md7pAMCdPtQwDBX5yWcwr0RxErzn6INKnsjiBqxmjr4f4nHRR9I3j7aDUjeRFeikRzynTTu7RIk0Cexpo2+v9wE72KgC5pe0zI6WgTWV+sfDjkFX69nENWY33ncuogpP8bSSzmCwStgYjWAPc+UU/PdH35GVyAb54Zqo= Received: from AM0PR07MB5460.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.22.87) by AM0PR07MB5489.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.22.212) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2495.10; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:45:23 +0000 Received: from AM0PR07MB5460.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::95b8:d2ab:36fc:a1cc]) by AM0PR07MB5460.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::95b8:d2ab:36fc:a1cc%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2495.014; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:45:23 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" CC: "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IETF 106 minutes Thread-Index: AQHVpF/AjLKMsSzcHUC/jXE1MAGOAA== Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:45:23 +0000 Message-ID: <8B113F12-F90C-4E32-8186-183F767A0C2B@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=francesca.palombini@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.84] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 63241e33-d0e0-4fec-3ef4-08d77276e2fd x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM0PR07MB5489: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0233768B38 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(346002)(39860400002)(376002)(136003)(366004)(396003)(189003)(199004)(53754006)(99286004)(66476007)(66556008)(2906002)(6116002)(7116003)(8936002)(81166006)(81156014)(8676002)(86362001)(33656002)(7736002)(6916009)(6512007)(6306002)(25786009)(6486002)(4744005)(54896002)(5640700003)(2501003)(66946007)(316002)(6436002)(71190400001)(71200400001)(2351001)(478600001)(236005)(4326008)(450100002)(256004)(966005)(606006)(3846002)(14454004)(2616005)(26005)(66066001)(102836004)(44832011)(5660300002)(6506007)(1730700003)(64756008)(76116006)(66446008)(36756003)(186003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM0PR07MB5489; H:AM0PR07MB5460.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: rbNOcE2vwA9l6HCyvWGawe7hzUCiq/700QfO5U4Xr2DhjJ2KcSLtq9ZJcJZoYqGwX2lXaDAYiskc++ej+YI3eXiRj8I+vSK1BVmblVEINBmUS+Qb+mlR57UEeqED4Ozl+8IUNBYMnZxVC5jNZJlhh4rrKsaY/Db1rCDPd4bz7xC22YEbD/NEoPyRq15/Uaf0El6xuKb388Hre8yXgfT+fUugYvlQOn7W0ryPyFyG5KMyKA9XKHBA9hP1sqGmnIHE8Bw8NzFYCVx/qLHkmexZdN3VDBSrsNEi3X4tVbfC/zPDWVltVdRRN1GC2ff6h/uXjZf2tJpW+2xm3lqVy6ml8nFhDSk5Cc8QFIr0hUIB7Z1gxrcGZcwN5biGDmIKZhypI69CF15tyzLz8Zn/dlGDY8dAHnJDdv+2Vl6KFOaikXsck5ndmxYrK+L9MfBvPHaAEFBtgjiLzo9P1hqWXkmL0MESvU2kw1cLcRGnsDU3Lpg= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8B113F12F90C4E328186183F767A0C2Bericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 63241e33-d0e0-4fec-3ef4-08d77276e2fd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Nov 2019 13:45:23.5639 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vzmPzgMCD2PG3TmGLFYgsRWS1DkWWheYFybqQwKY8N9PGkiYPhRlfNNzbNhMs8+cw0hxXV345jIRAgxiadFoSuykOcoqgjxHp4VMXwdnf2HWNvfBGzUiy5z1ErZAAf/H X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR07MB5489 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] IETF 106 minutes X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:45:28 -0000 --_000_8B113F12F90C4E328186183F767A0C2Bericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpJIGp1c3QgcG9zdGVkIHRoZSBtaW51dGVzIGZyb20gSUVURiAxMDYuIFRoYW5r IHlvdSBCZW4gZm9yIGJlaW5nIG91ciBtaW51dGUgdGFrZXIhDQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNr ZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWVldGluZy8xMDYvbWF0ZXJpYWxzL21pbnV0ZXMtMTA2LWdlbmRpc3BhdGNo LTAwDQoNCkZZSSwgdGhlIG1pbnV0ZXMgaW5jbHVkZSB0aGUgbGluayB0byB0aGUgc2Vzc2lvbuKA mXMgeW91dHViZSByZWNvcmRpbmc6DQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnlvdXR1YmUuY29tL3dhdGNoP3Y9 V09HemFqZ2V3d0kNCg0KQWxsIHRoZSBwYXJ0aWNpcGFudHMsIHBsZWFzZSBtYWtlIHN1cmUgeW91 ciBjb21tZW50IHdhcyBjYXB0dXJlZCBjb3JyZWN0bHksIGFuZCBpZiB0aGVyZSBpcyBhbnl0aGlu ZyB5b3XigJlkIGxpa2UgcmV2aXNlZCBwbGVhc2UgbGV0IHRoZSBjaGFpcnMga25vdy4NCg0KVGhh bmtzLA0KRnJhbmNlc2NhDQo= --_000_8B113F12F90C4E328186183F767A0C2Bericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7D54C10F22C0D74C92256292A81D5202@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2 IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToy IDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3Jt YWwsIGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGNtOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1i b3R0b206LjAwMDFwdDsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJp IixzYW5zLXNlcmlmOw0KCW1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdlOkVOLVVTO30NCmE6bGluaywgc3Bh bi5Nc29IeXBlcmxpbmsNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5Ojk5Ow0KCWNvbG9yOiMwNTYzQzE7 DQoJdGV4dC1kZWNvcmF0aW9uOnVuZGVybGluZTt9DQphOnZpc2l0ZWQsIHNwYW4uTXNvSHlwZXJs aW5rRm9sbG93ZWQNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5Ojk5Ow0KCWNvbG9yOiM5NTRGNzI7DQoJ dGV4dC1kZWNvcmF0aW9uOnVuZGVybGluZTt9DQpzcGFuLkVtYWlsU3R5bGUxNw0KCXttc28tc3R5 bGUtdHlwZTpwZXJzb25hbC1jb21wb3NlOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIixzYW5zLXNl cmlmOw0KCWNvbG9yOndpbmRvd3RleHQ7fQ0KLk1zb0NocERlZmF1bHQNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5 cGU6ZXhwb3J0LW9ubHk7DQoJbXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtbGFuZ3VhZ2U6RU4tVVM7fQ0KQHBhZ2UgV29y ZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3NpemU6NjEyLjBwdCA3OTIuMHB0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbjo3Mi4wcHQgNzIuMHB0 IDcyLjBwdCA3Mi4wcHQ7fQ0KZGl2LldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtwYWdlOldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMTt9 DQotLT48L3N0eWxlPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0KPGJvZHkgbGFuZz0iRU4tR0IiIGxpbms9IiMwNTYzQzEi IHZsaW5rPSIjOTU0RjcyIj4NCjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9IldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMSI+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0i TXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBsYW5nPSJTViIgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPkhpIGFs bCw8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBsYW5n PSJTViIgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwv cD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ij5J IGp1c3QgcG9zdGVkIHRoZSBtaW51dGVzIGZyb20gSUVURiAxMDYuIFRoYW5rIHlvdSBCZW4gZm9y IGJlaW5nIG91ciBtaW51dGUgdGFrZXIhPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMC41cHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9v OnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNp emU6MTEuMHB0Ij48YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL21lZXRpbmcv MTA2L21hdGVyaWFscy9taW51dGVzLTEwNi1nZW5kaXNwYXRjaC0wMCI+aHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJh Y2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9tZWV0aW5nLzEwNi9tYXRlcmlhbHMvbWludXRlcy0xMDYtZ2VuZGlzcGF0 Y2gtMDA8L2E+PGJyPg0KPGJyPg0KPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPkZZSSwgdGhlIG1pbnV0ZXMg aW5jbHVkZSB0aGUgbGluayB0byB0aGUgc2Vzc2lvbuKAmXMgeW91dHViZSByZWNvcmRpbmc6PG86 cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZv bnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJN c29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ij48YSBocmVmPSJodHRwczov L3d3dy55b3V0dWJlLmNvbS93YXRjaD92PVdPR3phamdld3dJIj5odHRwczovL3d3dy55b3V0dWJl LmNvbS93YXRjaD92PVdPR3phamdld3dJPC9hPg0KPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAg Y2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPjxicj4NCkFs bCB0aGUgcGFydGljaXBhbnRzLCBwbGVhc2UgbWFrZSBzdXJlIHlvdXIgY29tbWVudCB3YXMgY2Fw dHVyZWQgY29ycmVjdGx5LCBhbmQgaWYgdGhlcmUgaXMgYW55dGhpbmcgeW914oCZZCBsaWtlIHJl dmlzZWQgcGxlYXNlIGxldCB0aGUgY2hhaXJzIGtub3cuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0K PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPjxvOnA+ Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxl PSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ij5UaGFua3MsPGJyPg0KRnJhbmNlc2NhPC9zcGFuPjxvOnA+PC9v OnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_8B113F12F90C4E328186183F767A0C2Bericssoncom_-- From nobody Tue Nov 26 08:37:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7385B121031 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 08:37:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.244, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ALV5-n13IjhZ for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 08:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f54.google.com (mail-ot1-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AA90121030 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 08:37:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f54.google.com with SMTP id n23so16399296otr.13 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 08:37:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=0i0LTtU3oAGo62MApInSy6VD8QGoNqaDmZBi5ceK060=; b=L8GOb6Ch+4XHvpyhPEtnzFL++/LwN8rtVws4mzPPVuzdyFKPzTuTd5vqixwGOZqRcx cyzMvQoSOfI9lPTK/xYKBxkJunca8wI0bQTnu8G/ulNsyuDNHLeN9VutHvL9vpJF0AIn xUZ1u1zv4B/EbAQjKRghImUvtQ8ZXu5CZ2c1XbKFYzzUBoiuycEB0H3TcvsN0PhVKrzw dvKGr66sC5itSacFqSFrvGmgKYflV1UTXR7bo3i05dJfSa+BzQPfR/8Vg1xWqqTjVkCn Igki1u2gyKvdjNO+4YFn6CXDphe9xeEBf1B6Xf8Oot2YUDkjZUfCsSX2cU0HVYB915jp Qiow== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUt/5rebFoalwVcngCNgM/sRysAUeVmJVU7gDZVDUOJow808uv+ IzcpEVXa7Ll4byNFU3B8wM13KZqqv/GMdoD7moDczszNCl4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyJ5mM/RUifsFUaeF9iOcYAw831lXOYFL6ZotqyXhURM0KhjwMCJD1DCoiYT2QQArbRcb1cEcKJDOm36FtYspM= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4c17:: with SMTP id l23mr24016783otf.112.1574786253794; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 08:37:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:37:23 -0500 Message-ID: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004133b40598427f72" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Internet-Drafts Don't Expire X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 16:37:36 -0000 --0000000000004133b40598427f72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thinking the issues through since the meeting, I think this could potentially save a huge amount of time at all levels in the IETF. The question that came to me on the plane back was 'how many documents have to be put through IETF process purely to stop them expiring?' Steve Crocker's original concept for the RFC series was that it would be a kitchen sink of rough thoughts and design sketches capturing as much information as possible. But RFCs started tracking operational details such as port assignments and link info which required editorial consideration. The tensions between these two notions had led to the IEN series being spun out in 1977 as an attempt to separate the streams. Publication of RFC821/2 kind of put paid to the 'design sketch' as a sustainable notion. RFC became a brand. The EIN series was discontinued as Jon did not want to edit two different streams. We can argue about the history if people must. But my main point here is that the Internet has completely changed our concept of publication since. Back in the 1980s, the concept of publication was embedded in a set of cultural values that I and others of my generation understand but are completely alien to the youngsters. They are natives to this land we have created, we are the immigrants. The biggest objection made to ending expiry of IDs was that it might lead to a reduction in draft quality as people might not bother submitting their drafts for processing by IESG etc. Is that really an objection though? Reducing the number of drafts the IESG is required to read could be the ideal outcome if it is the right drafts that are dropped. It is my belief that design considerations have no place in a normative document. They result in confusion and ambiguity. See: 'A well regulated militia'. It is important to capture use cases and requirements but they should not be presented in a normative document. Test vectors are another tricky area. When writing code, the more test vectors I have, the better. But unless the IESG are going to implement the spec and run the test vectors for themselves, they are really not going to be able to review them. I believe that there is a wealth of supporting material that could be captured in the IETF process that really has no need of a document shepherd or IETF review. Of course, there is always the risk that someone might try to pass off an ID as an IETF standard because that is already happening. If this is a concern, we should have a rule that only drafts accepted as AD Sponsored or WG drafts can be listed as 'Standards Track'. But that really doesn't worry me very much because the only standards that matter are the ones people use. There are plenty of IETF standards that have been published as RFCs that have died the death and there are plenty of folk out there on the net who have found that a project has morphed into a de-facto standard that they do not have either the means or the motivation to maintain. Consider what might have happened if one of the early markdown efforts had been written up and published as a permanent Internet draft early on. It might not have prevented the needless proliferation of markdown schemes but it would have allowed those people who wanted to try to avoid divergence to do so. So what some people are presenting as nightmare scenario looks more like a beneficial situation to me. The document author gets to hand off change control. The IETF gets the option to take it up should it choose to do so. --0000000000004133b40598427f72 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thi= nking the issues through since the meeting, I think this could potentially = save a huge amount of time at all levels in the IETF.

The question that came to me on the plane back= was 'how many documents have to be put through IETF process purely to = stop them expiring?'

= Steve Crocker's original concept for the RFC series was that it would b= e a kitchen sink of rough thoughts and design sketches capturing as much in= formation as possible. But RFCs started tracking operational details such a= s port assignments and link info which required editorial consideration. Th= e tensions between these two notions had led to the IEN series being spun o= ut in 1977 as an attempt to separate the streams. Publication of RFC821/2 k= ind of put paid to the 'design sketch' as a sustainable notion. RFC= became a brand. The EIN series was discontinued=C2=A0as Jon did not want t= o edit two different streams.

We can argue about the history if people must. But my main point here = is that the Internet has completely changed our concept of publication sinc= e. Back in the 1980s, the concept of publication was embedded in a set of c= ultural values that I and others of my generation understand but are comple= tely alien to the youngsters. They are natives to this land we have created= , we are the immigrants.

=
The bigges= t objection made to ending expiry of IDs was that it might lead to a reduct= ion in draft quality as people might not bother submitting their drafts for= processing by IESG etc.

= Is that really an objection though? Reducing the number of drafts the IESG = is required to read could be the ideal outcome if it is the right drafts th= at are dropped.

It is my = belief that design considerations have no place in a normative document. Th= ey result in confusion and ambiguity. See: 'A well regulated militia= 9;. It is important to capture use cases and requirements but they should n= ot be presented in a normative document.

Test vectors are another tricky area. When writing code, th= e more test vectors I have, the better. But unless the IESG are going to im= plement the spec and run the test vectors for themselves, they are really n= ot going to be able to review them.

I believe that there is a wealth of supporting material that cou= ld be captured in the IETF process that really has no need of a document sh= epherd or IETF review.

Of course, there is always the risk that someone might try to pass off an= ID as an IETF standard because that is already happening. If this is a con= cern, we should have a rule that only drafts accepted as AD Sponsored or WG= drafts can be listed as 'Standards Track'.

But that really doesn't worry me very much b= ecause the only standards that matter are the ones people use. There are pl= enty of IETF standards that have been published as RFCs that have died the = death and there are plenty of folk out there on the net who have found that= a project has morphed into a de-facto standard that they do not have eithe= r the means or the motivation to maintain.=C2=A0

Consider what might have happened if one of the ear= ly markdown efforts had been written up and published as a permanent Intern= et draft early on. It might not have prevented the needless proliferation o= f markdown schemes but it would have allowed those people who wanted to try= to avoid divergence to do so. So what some people are presenting as nightm= are scenario looks more like a beneficial situation to me. The document aut= hor gets to hand off change control. The IETF gets the option to take it up= should it choose to do so.
--0000000000004133b40598427f72-- From nobody Tue Nov 26 11:26:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941351209A4 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:26:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iDqfvNd2r8ft for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x444.google.com (mail-pf1-x444.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::444]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6015120A87 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x444.google.com with SMTP id s18so1091542pfd.8 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:26:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SUMRxq7DVm7Z1ZuqMQ8v7ybJDmRdMKz6HJfQ9ycM85o=; b=D17mSu+CFh+ikxURac2jAlTUEMtx/1/QE70kPROjJiqo4AjSSJtvSUtvXxp9e00WWS g0XgADDIr/2QKWgkWmpnb4yD6tOVJX8gS/1anwdWQtNKBXtm34tp/Wf9HMtfJrlGiSNh dpgUh5SXWTGV+qzyia0G9r43RJkU2ZCpNHz4Tui7Mx6XzsoCELxV/wY2wfpoixLbWNZ2 U3kMM8qBOh49f7+iStdbwA1TC5kyuqSPjsyugFqO3zM2B2TW5KetkiEwPel53OvQbwZX bGAtoYGG6o+zLwvLrJor2nSIxXj3sda0FWkuH0mJNqE6BXN9Uhw7V/BhAzCbkW984yPG H3VQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SUMRxq7DVm7Z1ZuqMQ8v7ybJDmRdMKz6HJfQ9ycM85o=; b=b9pQA92ysYledQWBQDk1RJsOS9WaNeu7NdVK1yqrmYCinIhzezX/XCtlmn//ImcCaz hXk/MNSHIKezBP8Pjm2jB73sW7IcudyQpgPfnpC7JyoW18OAMOzDAKeihKiyGRatugQQ EPOu+YBkcZZnzBBfS1uMXhOX9Dm/OCgXX3ECUoVuDSEvGkVtRBLgQO5R6Hj6J4izkITU 2uxvwlwlDHGgsAA/vBc/rOkoszvTkF8dlXOIXXcx8cwD5lTHvcMSJ/U2Hj4hjHdrE/bT Rn6MjfhcMQRDZ/zsbMPBjdnzbem/DJxXY8F394UQGQ0YTUSRKPGMQW2r6qJkmIFTRJMa dg2A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWmiY6ePYI8kAtS90cpotHsv7Hhgz2le91Z+xItMKp1aABRUTh3 qVO6b0tf8XczSuIczWNIOvxY1j48 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwVGWH8+7c3EmshrcICG/nV7CYKphRJZ0sI9NNgQ2gmiSI9dq8TA95a9lEM3bjNpV3EIMdF1g== X-Received: by 2002:a63:f64:: with SMTP id 36mr174101pgp.16.1574796378040; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t8sm3980135pjr.25.2019.11.26.11.26.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:26:17 -0800 (PST) To: Phillip Hallam-Baker , gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <95bf9a55-805e-db7d-1bf5-23d9daaa25ec@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 08:26:14 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Internet-Drafts Don't Expire X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:26:21 -0000 > The question that came to me on the plane back was 'how many documents have to be put through IETF process purely to stop them expiring?' None. Since expired documents are available for ever, there is absolutely no point in "refreshing" a draft with no changes except the date. People do so, but I'm not sure why. I quite often cite https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-aeiou-00 when people propose alternatives to IPv6, as an example of a failed solution. Regards Brian From nobody Tue Nov 26 11:34:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E09120A87 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:34:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kjueQSQzWbYY for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29662120A84 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47MvHD0dpDz2dLyt; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:34:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1574796872; bh=7pPiZdJK2TCONcFlrZ2n/dKRUSvXBn7DuVuX6AEIUEg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=In+Bru211TWRvFzN/SLl2bKxQaO0owLryXDitT1I+q04SxZE4Omoh42VDtd0tXmmD gvacWk0AkJJxn48cW1Ogf7icmiWWDTIs1CGL83Tk3cQFuLf903BAsSfFZ8g/Gdfaa8 xtXYdjM6zkge6Mwar1qJV4pSKktuWRzNXtizN5t8= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47MvHC31Shz2dLyV; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:34:31 -0800 (PST) To: Brian E Carpenter , Phillip Hallam-Baker , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <95bf9a55-805e-db7d-1bf5-23d9daaa25ec@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <3248945d-0d75-98d0-ea0a-7f94c4a44c80@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:34:29 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <95bf9a55-805e-db7d-1bf5-23d9daaa25ec@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Internet-Drafts Don't Expire X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:34:34 -0000 As a working group chair, I do expect the editors of WG drafts to refresh them. This tells me that they are continuing to participate, and I do not need to find a new editor (or, conversely, that I do need to find a new editor.) Yes, I could set calendar reminders and send email of my own. For WG drafts, I think the expiration is useful to help folks get a more accurate image from the WG page. Yours, Joel On 11/26/2019 2:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> The question that came to me on the plane back was 'how many documents have to be put through IETF process purely to stop them expiring?' > > None. Since expired documents are available for ever, there is absolutely no point in "refreshing" a draft with no changes except the date. People do so, but I'm not sure why. I quite often cite https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-aeiou-00 when people propose alternatives to IPv6, as an example of a failed solution. > > Regards > Brian > From nobody Tue Nov 26 13:46:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5171200D6 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:46:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vpsSzwX17IE2 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1043.google.com (mail-pj1-x1043.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1043]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3457B1200C1 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1043.google.com with SMTP id a16so8894477pjs.13 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:46:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WX3f8O+nJK2xsZVtxsaM1do1QlfcVEbrROQpEc9lrGQ=; b=QRnY20u7KmAPkCWVdn3eHeV4IQSU1Wut+I+A3Wp3LOAIQqSm6f306/YdlO2GbHguR4 d/i11AYoF7C8oMnwqkJ3sy5PktR5PCbT/BOTFlGc8WDHO7Ot6gMXs14qbMMy+2pKdk3l CZWNmDBAmi1zcgX0+rpRNkSN3oVEg+3jmNC5TORJ/1nuqmfFvB14eG5fdNrnqFsTK1ZH PQadzNORhJ4zCvpPibGxPYSDXoygFCZ7eSK04aKq1XV+EPCx7M1KRaJGoFlZdIA0zbEM wijxd1J0aZBltOLVpq+aKvMvUnV1Y6XXJFIvdLHq4o6U2jvJnbztHLM2AeJZ3E+aiGtE p2xw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WX3f8O+nJK2xsZVtxsaM1do1QlfcVEbrROQpEc9lrGQ=; b=NNf+ITeLm2NxWlLQsbx9UT2fU/EvZx6CoHzEsExG0GGvBj00i3gCB3JVSasJUN5mcR +8BJ71CwxXykmKr/U7WQRBjHfMqUGyCzT25xai792LCY29VBqhk+3VDF+/QoCmuy/R53 6cLhvdohqcR9ThsXDhXxX2hAfcC1s09LN9wu9LOup50MWLDTZVhf4vrwW0skpJq1X61D KYeWf2KhdbyFByjpMsBsHdCjEAALEC8gW7jx7p9EDLcEiYW62W9KiJo9yi89/Vcz6fDY wBGymPZ9G/cY2G6fWZzWfzJTrlnL1LGRi9LJHLaoP8/VARn+9R0IC0ru2TAjuWkaYbHp fg0g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWmSKLktDhhd9gDRseYfjW12ou4+QdQMz+YagKzDWOy+YjVHv9O SW1vmsFs8ADJ7f/WuiasJn2xmqij X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyQoGdRWIY685G3J+Qi509QSbRUSDnFA3jHsMpfomVq11A+QO/JDMqcDSdhwrfqiZ1IOOH+Ww== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7c12:: with SMTP id x18mr496463pll.195.1574804759327; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (8.166.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.166.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s11sm13589381pgo.85.2019.11.26.13.45.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:45:58 -0800 (PST) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <95bf9a55-805e-db7d-1bf5-23d9daaa25ec@gmail.com> <3248945d-0d75-98d0-ea0a-7f94c4a44c80@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <62135886-4c5a-be8a-4a87-c18da9ef87a2@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:45:57 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3248945d-0d75-98d0-ea0a-7f94c4a44c80@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Internet-Drafts Don't Expire X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:46:02 -0000 Joel, To be clear, I'm in favour of applying "ain't broke, don't fix" to this. I agree that 6 months of inactivity is a useful trigger. However, an update where *only* the date changes isn't much use, IMHO. It tells you that the editor is still active, but it adds no value to the draft. Regards Brian On 27-Nov-19 08:34, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > As a working group chair, I do expect the editors of WG drafts to > refresh them. This tells me that they are continuing to participate, > and I do not need to find a new editor (or, conversely, that I do need > to find a new editor.) Yes, I could set calendar reminders and send > email of my own. For WG drafts, I think the expiration is useful to > help folks get a more accurate image from the WG page. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/26/2019 2:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> The question that came to me on the plane back was 'how many documents have to be put through IETF process purely to stop them expiring?' >> >> None. Since expired documents are available for ever, there is absolutely no point in "refreshing" a draft with no changes except the date. People do so, but I'm not sure why. I quite often cite https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-aeiou-00 when people propose alternatives to IPv6, as an example of a failed solution. >> >> Regards >> Brian >> > From nobody Tue Nov 26 14:31:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B1A120AFE for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:31:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fRgl1gT-nbUj for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF0B3120AFA for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41453769; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:31:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Cv4khRk3ttEdQw8Elm+apQ/b3bSWVVQzJQERTksuI LE=; b=P+3GXrJTyO6OtlVSiWgnIQtaGfh6DZDA5RL1goB9xCT+UqOpLLkIxQRja zX3sX3CCNMuPHtkCtvCnGM00tcEXBuLUZCbovu9cJ2YRR1qZ/A9nLrV5zGosY35Z p9eVA5tH0umo4BS2l9wMSvk3irZXLM9QJXlb6wy/fs00CUGzioUjvzh2eZaUT8O7 buzj0rL/p+ZROEKpQRBZ56b6kJKAFwsYW/esGWR7VoPulisv3TT0pFHDEfJEAuiM yiJXwZpuvg3BwOTwrsZB1s+hEvRcr/5b/mkSTjMED7v8NLLhtHOpYnoQIDoi7Mvt Hc7qvbUR2GAiUJ7qRnfXZs67ekPvg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrudeifedgudeifecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrd duheenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgv rhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4020E306005F; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:31:54 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <95bf9a55-805e-db7d-1bf5-23d9daaa25ec@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <7a445ede-6dfb-9642-218d-952f0ac4511a@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:31:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <95bf9a55-805e-db7d-1bf5-23d9daaa25ec@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Internet-Drafts Don't Expire X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 22:31:57 -0000 On 11/26/19 2:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > None. Since expired documents are available for ever, there is absolutely no point in "refreshing" a draft with no changes except the date. It's been my experience that expired I-Ds are not taken as serious proposals; that renewing an I-D even with minor changes provides some indication that a draft is still being maintained; and that this is a useful if somewhat imprecise metric. So I'm opposed to eliminating expiration dates on I-Ds.   I think it's an example of action bias that requires a significant amount of work to accomplish nothing useful. Keith p.s. OTOH, if we had the idea to set up some new kind of document that is a living document, subject to continuous modification, but with a mechanism to take snapshots and cite them, I might be in favor of that.   Even better would be if such documents were editable via an etherpad-like mechanism, and authors/editors never had to deal with xml2rfc.