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Tue, 1 Sep 2020 15:34:16 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: The Various Terminology Drafts Thread-Index: AdaAcEyAW6+HRo9gSdS9aNBxhvJYaw== Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 15:34:15 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=419.consulting; x-originating-ip: [86.144.99.78] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: df14573a-9b92-4ff0-323f-08d84e8c7c50 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P265MB1022: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: ZaFaVTu5+G6+tnPmsuooFcIMfvqdSM95t9SAQUXCfayXnPjCcNLM6eQRXc/cRK24Zbzd9zasAlur6MeoQqfWqRciCSFpdVx5Dh1JlX3Fs7mNuDv0ceDN4TOi017zSAP350TjyxBXvDZL40HqlpgWROMeEUMxL263Pw97mAFS7X339brhrC3ljxBHod9GyEYNmUSB1thljuG9x6nAzoCnofxZjqJTtA4b3vDY6DKBf2XUZD5hyeVNeDhkh2i8ysV1Av5FWQWwmB+q/C1AJ+bcuAaSjbfmRymGQqaw4fYBJgd2MlYAP7Vv9CxM5yRwpcQ7Ug2XqkCJO0NbyWb8m2f2qh15gwMOKPK0ao2Y1Zi7jz8NU8lzjwWA7E1YL1QMzCDw x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_LO2P265MB0573C02E7711EA6621402BCAC22E0LO2P265MB0573GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: df14573a-9b92-4ff0-323f-08d84e8c7c50 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Sep 2020 15:34:15.9124 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: iaVKBpLSdqEoB4EuThIAceC9hcIxQcw56a7jD6evDgO6AkKKQHuUImYiaz+QqpWxxC2d2XsU8j+D4ZVZKGZWFSLAteRPmPLqh4I6mhe/jQY= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P265MB1022 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] The Various Terminology Drafts X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 15:34:29 -0000 --_000_LO2P265MB0573C02E7711EA6621402BCAC22E0LO2P265MB0573GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having looked at the current verious of the three drafts focused on termino= logy, my thoughts in advance of the working group virtual meetings are as f= ollows: * Draft-gondwana-effective-terminology-01 seems to be the most promis= ing starting point for a document that could usefully be dispatched, Draft-= knodel-terminology-04.txt the least so, with Draft-moore-exclusionary-langu= age in between the other two. * Draft-gondwana-effective-terminology-01 Is the only ptoposal that l= ooks more broadly than a consideration of exclusionary language, which I be= lieve is helpful and why I belivee it merits consideration for dispatch; Dr= aft-knodel-terminology-04.txt seems to me to be far too narrowly focused, c= iting principally US-centric, English language considerations, and only a s= mall number at that, hence why I believe it is unsuitable. * As an aside, I note that both the Moore and Knodel drafts suggest t= hat the RFC Editor maintains a role in identifying and giving guidance on e= xclusionary language but neither go on to suggest how the RFC Editor might = determine what terms might be deemed to be inappropriate. Barbara Stark pu= t forward an idea on the IETF mailing list (see https://mailarchive.ietf.or= g/arch/msg/ietf/DFstwzLlxCwt5aODAJdDpoQMY0s/) which might be a helpful sta= rting point and would have the benefit of community involvement. This coul= d be a useful way forward for recommendation 4.4 in the Gondwana Draft. * As a second aside, I note that the Moore draft has some specific re= commendations which could usefully be added to the Gondwana draft to streng= then the latter document. No doubt others will have different views, I look forward to our discussoin= s during the virtual meetings and on the list. Andrew --_000_LO2P265MB0573C02E7711EA6621402BCAC22E0LO2P265MB0573GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having looked at the current verious of the three drafts focused on te= rminology, my thoughts in advance of the working group virtual meetings are= as follows:
 
  • Draft-gondwana-effective-terminology-01 seems to be the most promising = starting point for a document that could usefully be dispatched, Draft-knod= el-terminology-04.txt the least so, with Draft-moore-exclusionary-language = in between the other two.
  • Draft-gondwana-effective-terminology-01 I= s the only ptoposal that looks more broadly than a consideration of exclusi= onary language, which I believe is helpful and why I belivee it merits cons= ideration for dispatch; Draft-knodel-terminology-04.txt seems to me to be far too narrowly focused, citing principally US-centric, Englis= h language considerations, and only a small number at that, hence why I bel= ieve it is unsuitable.
  • As an aside, I note that both the Moore and = Knodel drafts suggest that the RFC Editor maintains a role in identifying a= nd giving guidance on exclusionary language but neither go on to suggest ho= w the RFC Editor might determine what terms might be deemed to be inappropriate.  Barbara Stark put forward an idea on the IETF ma= iling list (see https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/ietf/DFstwzLlxCwt5aODAJdDpoQMY0s/)  which might be a helpful starting point and would have the benefit of= community involvement.  This could be a useful way forward for recomm= endation 4.4 in the Gondwana Draft.
  • As a second aside, I note that = the Moore draft has some specific recommendations which could usefully be a= dded to the Gondwana draft to strengthen the latter document.
 
No doubt others will have different views, I look forward to our discu= ssoins during the virtual meetings and on the list. 
 <= /div>
 <= /div>
Andrew
&nb= sp;
 <= /div> --_000_LO2P265MB0573C02E7711EA6621402BCAC22E0LO2P265MB0573GBRP_-- From nobody Tue Sep 1 10:28:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA8F13A0BA9 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xowwKEXh4jy7 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 10:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beige.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (beige.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E68983A0B9D for ; 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Tue, 1 Sep 2020 10:28:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=jvUEFfYLJZuET5 MKT3C7ntsGuDQ=; b=xkQmYSDaHiRpDG5JbA/zprdlVaWL9MmBVGBwLzh2hcu4No qoaWR4w3sk3/7xc2XHO43OHwxcbuGrzHmVKI255PQB2taI+BoZxhMvL3WfuE50Vk ++GLVK+jaTcoIPPKzDO4DAVu8j9uPCQzP+sCtTJweoct7MgwxYs3/GMPFeITg= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a37.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 84A57844C1; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 10:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 12:28:13 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a37 From: Nico Williams To: Andrew Campling Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200901172811.GV3100@localhost> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudefjedguddugecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffdtkeethfeuteeviefgfeegjeetjedvhfehgfdvtdefueejheelgeeuhffghffgnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] The Various Terminology Drafts X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 17:28:21 -0000 On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 03:34:15PM +0000, Andrew Campling wrote: > Having looked at the current verious of the three drafts focused on > terminology, my thoughts in advance of the working group virtual > meetings are as follows: [replying slightly out of order] > * Draft-gondwana-effective-terminology-01 Is the only ptoposal that > looks more broadly than a consideration of exclusionary language, > which I believe is helpful and why I belivee it merits consideration > for dispatch; Draft-knodel-terminology-04.txt seems to me to be far > too narrowly focused, citing principally US-centric, English > language considerations, and only a small number at that, hence why > I believe it is unsuitable. I'm happy to see publication of any and even all of these as Informational (not least because only the IESG could stop that, and the IESG surely wouldn't), and eventually for one of them to advance to BCP. That seems like a very reasonable position. Publication as Information is essentially what I've meant in the past by "no prior restraint" (which, for the benfit of our non-American participants, is a legal term of art in the U.S.). Even without publication of any of these, we can be certain that "master/slave" -for example- will never again be allowed in RFCs simply by social pressure and convention. I.e., no action is actually required to achieve the desired effect. > * As an aside, I note that both the Moore and Knodel drafts suggest > that the RFC Editor maintains a role in identifying and giving > guidance on exclusionary language but neither go on to suggest how > the RFC Editor might determine what terms might be deemed to be > inappropriate. [...] That might be because there is no consensus on methodology for doing that. We have some scholarship of varying quality about the subject, but not any real evidence for the proposition that certain terms are exclusionary -- actually establishing that with some certainty would require hard work. There is 'critical theory', for example, but that's not the only theory we might find useful. A complete survey of theories and methodologies will take time to collate, and actual surveys of people and statistical analysis will also take time to collect and perform. Academic research of this type does not get done within our likely time constraints (approx. two months now?). > * Draft-gondwana-effective-terminology-01 seems to be the most > promising starting point for a document that could usefully be > dispatched, Draft-knodel-terminology-04.txt the least so, with > Draft-moore-exclusionary-language in between the other two. draft-knodel-terminology-04 essentially says the community is full of racists -a disqualifying ad hominem-: | There is harm in protracted discussion about the validity IETF | participants and their experiences with exclusionary terminology. Perhaps there is harm in protracted discussion of anything, but claiming that there is about just this one particular topic is just so much a "shut up!" argument. | The racism in the community that has been surfaced as a result of | this larger debate among technologists pushed away participants and Perhaps Ms. Knodel might like to name names. Though she might want to consult a lawyer first, as those she names might be able to sue her for slander (if named on list) or libel (if named in an I-D). I myself have shied away from "master/slave" in my documents for decades, and I use "local policy" instead of any *list in my IETF documents. I will continue to not use those terms even if we should end up not publishing any documents on the matter. But perhaps Knodel means simply objecting to any part of her proposal makes one a racist? Can we get a clarification? | observers. This illustrates the need to, as Graves is cited above as | saying, continue to raise awareness within our community for | eventual, lasting change on the continued front of struggle against | the racists amongst us. Yet we recommend a living stylesheet, rather | than repeated RFCs, be used as a mechanism for monitoring | exclusionary language in IETF documents [Terminology]. A stylesheet! Earlier I had proposed -tongue-in-cheek- an IANA registry, perhaps with a FCFS registration policy. I hadn't expected that suggestion to be taken seriously! Yet here we are. What is the difference between a "living stylesheet" and an IANA registry? An IANA registry would be better than a "living stylesheet" in that at least IANA has the mechanisms and staff to host such a thing and in that we have a pre-defined set of IANA registration policies for us to choose from. No, we'd not use FCFS, but probably Expert Review. We even have mechanisms for selection of Experts. Perhaps it would be fine if the RSE were to maintain a style guide, provided that there be a way to address controversies that arise in the process. The IETF is nothing if not about process. Among other flaws, draft-knodel-terminology-04's claims that "man-in- the-middle" is not a standard term, and that "on-path attacker" is a suitable substitute, are both completely incorrect. Some two years ago when I semi-seriously proposed that MITM could be re-acronymed as Mallory-in-the-middle I got an off-list email from one of you asking what prompted that 'horrible attack' on Knodel. At the time I didn't even know who Knodel was! But Mallory, like Alice, Bob, Eve, Trent, and others, is part of the standard cast of characters used in the cryptography literature, and of those Mallory is the one who performs MITM attacks. Some in our community are being much too quick to see evil intent in others. "On-path" is not a suitable replacement for MITM because the "middle" is logical, not necessarily physical. One can mount an MITM attack w/o being on-path if one can cause a redirection, for example. Conversely, being on-path does not necessarily enable MITM attacks at network layers of interest, unless the network layers of interest are susceptible to MITM attacks. Nor does being on-path mean the attacker is necessarily mounting an active attack -- they could merely be eavesdropping. Thus "on-path" is simply not a suitable replacement for MITM. Furthermore, have any men have felt excluded by "man-in-the-middle"? Because "MITM" has been so widely used for so long and, like the similar MITB, so useful in conveying its central idea, it would be best to re-acronym it rather than replace it should we really believe that men feel excluded because of our use of it. Nico -- From nobody Fri Sep 4 17:00:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAABF3A0DE0 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 17:00:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1lo3y_ZX5fQ4 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 17:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C78143A0DDE for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 17:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBABBBB559BB for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:00:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Il4isW99eqa2 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:00:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.6] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 19383BB559AA for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:00:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pete Resnick" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 19:00:05 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5706) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_MailMate_A472E6A7-4204-48A4-BC3C-743F7A4C9D60_=" Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Draft meeting minutes and summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 00:00:17 -0000 --=_MailMate_A472E6A7-4204-48A4-BC3C-743F7A4C9D60_= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_B8AA4753-FBFD-4EA0-9296-73AC16016CCA_=" --=_MailMate_B8AA4753-FBFD-4EA0-9296-73AC16016CCA_= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Greetings all, You will find the minutes of the first session attached, including the summary I made on the spot at the bottom. Francesca and I discussed (with the assistance of Alissa), and here are our top-level conclusions after session 1: (Please note that these are my words, as I ran out of time today for Francesca to review. She or Alissa may feel free to correct me if I screwed it up.) - People in the room started from "probably AD sponsored", but there was a shift as the session went on and things were starting to lean towards a BoF or, with even a bit more support, a WG. - There were still a few people who thought the work should not progress. - We did not get a good sense for which of the choices (reject, AD-sponsored, BoF/WG) people felt, "I definitely want this one and I can't live with the others" vs. "this is my preference, but I can live with this other one". We'll be listening for those comments on Monday, and on the list after we post the summary of Monday's session. - The opinions were quite varied on the particular documents. It seems that everybody had some complaints about each document, and that most people had some support for some sections of all of the documents. We are going to want to suss out what recommendation the group is going to make for which document(s) to start with (if any) if the consensus is for the work to move forward. - There was a good deal of support for some other kinds of activities (IAB program, other discussion venues), but those seemed independent of the document-related issues above. Let us know if we have mischaracterized any of that, or if there are any corrections that need to be made to the minutes. Talk to you on Monday. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best --=_MailMate_B8AA4753-FBFD-4EA0-9296-73AC16016CCA_= Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings all,

You will find the minutes of the first session attached, = including the summary I made on the spot at the bottom. Francesca and I d= iscussed (with the assistance of Alissa), and here are our top-level conc= lusions after session 1:

(Please note that these are my words, as I ran out of tim= e today for Francesca to review. She or Alissa may feel free to correct m= e if I screwed it up.)

  • People in the room started from "probably AD sponsore= d", but there was a shift as the session went on and things were starting= to lean towards a BoF or, with even a bit more support, a WG.

  • There were still a few people who thought the work sh= ould not progress.

  • We did not get a good sense for which of the choices = (reject, AD-sponsored, BoF/WG) people felt, "I definitely want this one a= nd I can't live with the others" vs. "this is my preference, but I can li= ve with this other one". We'll be listening for those comments on Monday,= and on the list after we post the summary of Monday's session.

  • The opinions were quite varied on the particular docu= ments. It seems that everybody had some complaints about each document, a= nd that most people had some support for some sections of all of the docu= ments. We are going to want to suss out what recommendation the group is = going to make for which document(s) to start with (if any) if the consens= us is for the work to move forward.

  • There was a good deal of support for some other kinds= of activities (IAB program, other discussion venues), but those seemed i= ndependent of the document-related issues above.

Let us know if we have mischaracterized any of that, or i= f there are any corrections that need to be made to the minutes.

Talk to you on Monday.

pr
--
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best

--=_MailMate_B8AA4753-FBFD-4EA0-9296-73AC16016CCA_=-- --=_MailMate_A472E6A7-4204-48A4-BC3C-743F7A4C9D60_= Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=minutes-1.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable # Gendispatch Interim = Tuesday 2020-09-01 20:00 UTC Chairs: Francesca Palombini, Pete Resnick Recordings: https://youtu.be/VRfvPWeI1xs Jabber Log: https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/gendispatch/2020-09-01.html Minute takers: Francesca Palombini, Rob Wilton ## Bluesheet = (39 participants) 1. Francesca Palombini, Ericsson 2. Pete Resnick, Episteme 3. Keith Moore, Network Heretics 4. Mallory Knodel, Center for Democracy & Technology 5. Adam Roach, Independent 6. Mirja K=C3=BChlewind, Ericsson 7. Robert Sparks, AMS 8. Brian Carpenter, U of Auckland 9. Colin Perkins, University of Glasgow 10. Niels ten Oever, Texas A&M University - University of Amsterdam 11. Jay Daley, IETF Administration LLC 12. Bron Gondwana, Fastmail 13. Alissa Cooper, Cisco 14. John Border, Hughes 15. Joel Halpern, Ericsson. 16. Rich Salz, Akamai Technologies 17. Russ Housley, Vigil Security LLC 18. John Levine, Standcore 19. Melinda Shore, Fastly 20. Xavier de Foy, Interdigital 21. Alvaro Retana, Futurewei Technologies 22. Nick Doty, UC Berkeley 23. Eliot Lear, Cisco Systems 24. Andrew Campling, 419 Consulting 25. Jim Fenton, Altmode Networks 26. Eric Rescorla, Mozilla 27. Nicolas Williams 28. Bob Hinden, Check Point Software 29. Martin Duke, F5 Networks 30. Shivan Sahib, Salesforce 31. Barbara Stark, AT&T 32. Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works 33. Rob Wilton, Cisco 34. Viktor Dukhovni 35. Kyle Rose, Akamai ## Agenda & Minutes Agenda bashing - no comments - Chair intro (5 minutes) * Reminder: we are looking to answer the dispatch question. - The discussion on content should be kept on the lines of if/what th= e IETF should work on, as that impacts the "where". - We are not trying to solve the problem, we are trying to figure out= what part of this area the IETF should work on. - Helpful: what would be a satisfactory output to the discussion (BCP= , informational, updates to the RFC Style Guide, changes to the idnits tool, Gen-Art r= eview guidelines, something similar to W3C manual of style: https://w3c.g= ithub.io/manual-of-style/#inclusive, ...) - we have gone through minutes [1], jabber logs [2], and gendispatch = mailing list discussion (including the thread starting at [3]) and tried = to summarize the discussion here (see below) Elliot Lear: to the chairs: what are our options, if we are not able to d= iscuss content? PR: we can discuss content as long as the dispatch question is in mind. Alissa Cooper: Please can you clarify the relationship between this meeti= ng and next? PR: discussion for this meeting will be summarized to the list and fed in= to next week (for whoever couldn't make it, or if additional issues come = up). - Terminology proposals: * Terminology, Power, and Inclusive Language in Internet-Drafts and RFCs= - Mallory https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-knodel-terminology-04 [- slides](https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/interim-2020-gendispatch-= 01/slides/slides-interim-2020-gendispatch-01-sessa-draft-knodel-terminolo= gy-00) = * Effective Terminology in IETF drafts - Bron https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gondwana-effective-terminology-01 [- slides](https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/interim-2020-gendispatch-= 01/slides/slides-interim-2020-gendispatch-01-sessa-draft-gondwana-effecti= ve-terminology-00.pdf) = * Avoiding Exclusionary Language in RFCs - Keith https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moore-exclusionary-language-00 [- slides](https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/interim-2020-gendispatch-= 01/slides/slides-interim-2020-gendispatch-01-sessa-draft-moore-exclusiona= ry-language-00) = MCR: Can we file an errata against existing RFCs for offensive terms? Keith: could be an option, another option is "moving forward we are not = going to use these terms". Don't want the rippling effect of revisions. Bron Gondwana: changing terminology is easy in documents, but a lot is i= n code as well. Andrew Campling: Search and replace might be problematic. What is your = view on quoting offensive terms in documents? Keith: You need a good reason to change existing terminology. Wouldn't m= ake a broad recommendation about that. Subject matter experts are best p= laced to choose the appropriate terminology. PR: Comments should be aimed as dispatching rather than how specific doc= uments should be fixed. * Summary from IETF108: - there is difference of opinion between the problem this draft wants= to solve and the draft itself (we are trying to dispatch the problem as = well as the draft) - there were different opinions between the problem this draft wants = to solve and the draft itself (we are trying to dispatch the problem as w= ell as the draft) - there was support on the statement that IETF should address the pro= blem this draft brings forward - sense of the room that draft-knodel-terminology is not a good start= ing point - there needs to be more discussion on content to understand what wou= ld be a good starting point - there exist several options for the discussion on content to take p= lace. The sense of the room was that discussion on ietf@ietf mailing list= was not productive. Options: * Consensus on need for a dedicated mailing list + virtual meetings = (/interims) (note: some content discussion was started on gendispatch, in= the meantime) * AD sponsored (which would remove the overhead of creating a new WG= ) - where to have the f2f discussion? * dispatch to a new WG, which would give a clearer place to build co= nsensus and have discussion * dispatch to BOF for discussion * IAB program * Brian Carpenter summary of outputs [4] (not complete, does not list IA= B program, BOF, ...): 1. Recommend that it be dropped from IETF consideration... 1.1. ...and referred to the Independent stream 1.2. ...and referred to the RFC Editor 1.3. ...and forgotten 2. Recommend that a WG on this topic be formed... 2.1. ...and asked to use the draft as a starting point 2.1. ...and asked to start a completely new draft 3. Recommend that a sponsoring AD be found... 3.1. ...and that the draft be used as a starting point 3.2. ...and that the AD solicits a completely new draft 4. Recommend that the issue be handled solely by the IESG 5. Recommend that the issue be handled solely by the RFC Editor [1] https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/minutes/minutes-108-gendispatch-= 01 [2] https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/gendispatch/2020-07-30.html [3] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/zsIVefDQLzKQ2WF4KuK= yPm1_mFI/ [4] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/ne7FQEBQeHmbz_7y62w= pJuAR9NA/ ### Discussion Jim Fenton: Concerned about how this discussion is being seen from the ou= tside as an official IETF position. Mallory draft has been cited. Also = looking at the github repo and it looks like an official IETF position. PR: Yes this is a problem, please try and be careful. Viktor Dukhovni: re:dispatch 1. we don't have to ban language that is on = the process of going away naturally. Not convinced that any of these draf= ts need to progress. 2. In some way IETF is quite exclusionary, not in th= e ways that these drafs are aiming to address, but primarily on the energ= y and time that one needs to be able to afford to engage (but few can aff= ord), also because participants are funded by major market participants. = In conclusion: these drafts should not go any further. John Levine: Viktor said what I wanted to say. RFCEd would not be a good = dispatch, this should not be their problem. Style guide would be fine. D= ecision still should be kept in the WG (editors, chairs etc). Of the 3 dr= afts, Bron's is the best to move forward. But question whether we should= spin up process for this work. Dan Harkins: Second what Jim said. Re:dispatching - agree with Viktor, bu= t so many people support it so it might not be possible. BOF and WG may n= ot work well. Probably best option AD sponsored draft. Best of the 3 pro= bably Bron's. Section 3.2 especially is missing from the other 2. Bron Gondwana: Part of this document isn't for the IETF, but is to be ref= erenced by the outside world. Need to be careful that we don't do somethi= ng that doesn't help IETF's mission, and avoid fighting the world's battl= es. = Michael Richardson: BoF would be a real problem. Keith and Bron produce a= n AD sponsored document. Mallory Knodel: Without the original draft, the other 2 don't make a lot = of sense. In 2018 there were a lot of people questioning if the harm was = legitimate, this draft came from those questions. It summarizes the discu= ssion. Bron's reads as the most reactionary, but alone it does not make s= ense. I don't think it fits as BCP. The reason for including the statemen= t that the discussion created harm is important, which is why it's includ= ed. I am happy to make changes, I think it needs to advance. Nico Williams: Re:dispatch - I stopped using this language long ago based= on the precautionary principle. We could publish these (any particular d= raft or all of them) as Informational initially based also on the precaut= ionary principle, then perhaps progress to BCP. The effect has been had w= hether we even publish one, let alone three or five. Given that the effec= t has been had, I don't think there is any urgency to see any publication= =2E Informational followed by BCP is good. Could go via ISE, otherwise do= n't know where (BoF, WG) they should really go. Agree that RPC (RFC Production Center) cannot do it. RSE can do it provi= ded there is a process for it. Regarding exclusionary policies of IETF - ISOC used to have a program for= inclusivity, but apparently it has ended. An inclusivity program, possib= ly sponsoring attendance by participants with limited resources, is a ver= y productive thing that we could be doing. Better to focus on inclusion where we can be productive than exclusionary= language that we won't be using any more anyway and where there is not e= nough certainty as to whether it actually excludes. Barbara Stark: I would like to see an RFC published that creates and mant= ain a list of terms to be cautious about using. Language changes over ti= me, people around the world may not be aware about language that is no lo= nger acceptable, hence good to have references. Conclusion: I support having something published, but concerned about goi= ng the AD route. Keith Moore: to Viktor's point: emphatically disagree. In IETF we try to = find rough agreement between people with different perspective. We are ac= tually more inclusive than other groups. I would not want to publish any = of the docs in the current form. A document needs to be produced out of t= his. Skeptical about AD sponsored. Needs to have more visibility, even if= more difficult. Niels ten Oever: IETF does not look like the rest of the world. Differen= t meeting styles, text tools. IETF has not diversified, perhaps we shoul= d take the norms into account, not just of the people who are already her= e, but also people who should be here. Our infrastructure has a great im= pact on society, but it is not just technical. Perhaps we could find an outside group of people who could advise the AD = on how to move forward. Bob Hinden: These documents are a bit like architecture documents that ar= e hard to get consensus on and get published. Like what has been put on = github, and think that we could get consensus around. Having a document = that points to an external list (e.g., github) would be just fine. Don't= need a WG to achieve this. AD sponsored would be fine. Martin Duke: Concur with Barbara. Not strong opinion on AD sponsored or W= G. I like parts of all three drafts but think it's very important to have= at least a few actionable terms that the industry is converging on (like= the -knodel draft). Do authors have fundamental disagreement or could th= ey work together to merge these 3 drafts? Or are there differences that w= ould make that difficult? PR: If the document was dispatched to a WG then the WG chairs might appoi= nt an editor. Martin Duke: maybe there is some common ground. Keith (from chat): Not sure, to discuss offline. Eliot Lear: Thanks all three authors. If we dispatch to AD and then need= a long last call debate then that will not go well. Hence, maybe better = to have a WG with a particular modality: Perhaps dispatch to a WG that is= focused on just a single draft, doesn't meet in person, but does have in= terims. Have a preference for Bron's draft as a starting point, but don'= t want to lose the work that Mallory and Niels have done, but perhaps tha= t shouldn't be in a BCP, but as referenced extra information. As Barbara= said, do we have the right expertise in the room? Viktor Dukhovni: Just wanted to clarify. IETF is by far the most inclusiv= e group in terms of the ability to participate. But the ability to partic= ipate is no guarantee that one's views not end up in the rough. Though th= e IETF is not exclusionary, it is not possible to make it *representative= *. Best outcome is acknowledge that the language is changing naturally, w= ithout any supervisory input, not publish any of these drafts, and move o= n. Example of "man-in-the-middle" from Knodel draft: the term is widely u= sed in books (e.g. Applied Cryptography), and widely understood. Most of = these things are fishing for problems where there is none. Andrew Campling: Agree on Barbara's comment about cautious. Maybe this is= a relatively small part on the issue of inclusion. Something needs to be= published. Bron's document seems like the right starting point, to build= from. Should not be a US centric document. It could be a serie of docume= nts on inclusion. Brian Carpenter: re:dispatch - review teams in IETF. Don't remember a sin= gle case where reviewer has said "you might want to change term X to term= Y". We need to make sure that review teams are aware. PR: early vs late review issue. Do you think it could be a problem if lat= e review is where these comments could happen? Brian: it's possible. Early review is even better, but we don't need a ea= rly review team. Nico Williams: Second what Brian just said. Don't need early review. We s= aw a lot of debate on this. Publishing as informational seems like the ri= ght thing to do. It causes friction to ask for prior restraint. I am not = objecting to publication of any of the three drafts, as informational, es= pecially if problematic language is softened. Waiting a few weeks might a= ctually help. About expertise: yes we do lack expertise on social issues,= in general, as a group. Mallory Knodel: I agree with publishing other drafts beside ours. But I f= ind Keith and Bron's draft to be odd in the vacuum. If we want to pare it= down, I'm fine. It's not outsider that are coming in. There is expertise= within the community. Nick Doty: I think it is important that we talk about non-goals, in terms= of inclusion or participation. Re:dispatch - update to the style guide? PR: BCP that says you should consult the style guide, would this be accep= table? Nico Williams: We can use informative language, I am a lot more comfortab= le with that. = Colin Perkins: Wonder what the goal of this work would be from this group= =2E Raccomendation on language use? Or longer term problem, and that we a= re trying to be more inclusive? One of the things I like from Mallory and= Niel's draft is that we need to pay attention to ways we do our work. Rich Salz: Concerned about the cost of us doing nothing, in terms of perc= eption. The larger problem of inclusivity and growth is a real problem fo= r IETF. Re:dispatch - IAB to start an inclusivity and diversity program a= nd this draft go there. Viktor Dukhovni: About inclusivity - one has to be careful about whom "in= clusivity" excludes. We don't want to exclude IETF participants who would= chafe at policing of words. = Joel Halpern: I hope we can get to a point where we get "people should av= oid these terms", and not policing. (...) No an IAB program should not do= this. Maybe a serie of BoFs? To craft the initial document in a communit= y fashion. PR: Elliot mentioned quick spin up-spin down, loosely chartered, would th= at be acceptable instead of BoFs? Joel: sometime they work, sometime they don't. Bron Gondwana: RFC3539 mission statement for IETF, does not specify diver= sity. Any effort should be added to the mission statement. Barbara Stark: Joel said much of what I was thinking. To me one of the pr= imary reason to avoid words like these is that everybody knows (that they= are exclusive). List of these words would be helpful for people not unkw= nowingly using them. PR: Conclusion (to check with Alissa and Francesca + minutes): we need to= do something. Good support for not AD sponsored, more BoF or short-lived= WG. About documents, pieces missing and things people objective to all o= f the 3 documents. Bron: we might not want to decide at the end of this meeting, but wait fo= r second meeting. PR: Yes, we will summarize the discussion today and feed it as input to s= econd meeting. Second meeting will be summarized and posted to the mailin= g list. Elliot: only thing to add to summary: important to capture the comment Co= lin made about scope. Francesca: this could be part of the charter discussion. Mallory: Don't think there is clarity in what needs to be changed in the = document. Chairs please put the github in the agenda. Robert Sparks: There was support for AD sponsored. Alissa Cooper: difference about AD sponsored and WG, it's about the diffe= rence in the way the community can participate on. Do people want an RFC = or not? What other activity do people want? PR: Not only consensus document, BCP or anything else. Francesca: Support for Rich's idea of IAB program in the jabber. *[PR]:Pete Resnick --=_MailMate_A472E6A7-4204-48A4-BC3C-743F7A4C9D60_=-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 04:03:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9EE3A0B15 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 04:03:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KBwWVbmJxw4a for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 04:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A36B3A0BA3 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 488b5a33f748713be529de57fa847022 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Draft meeting minutes and summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 11:03:49 -0000 Thanks for this summary Pete, I had the second interim meeting on my agenda for today (Tuesday September 8) - but clearly I have made a calendar mistake. Hope the meeting was productive, am looking forward to the minutes. Best, Niels On 9/5/20 2:00 AM, Pete Resnick wrote: > Greetings all, > > You will find the minutes of the first session attached, including the summary I made on the spot at the bottom. Francesca and I discussed (with the assistance of Alissa), and here are our top-level conclusions after session 1: > > (Please note that these are my words, as I ran out of time today for Francesca to review. She or Alissa may feel free to correct me if I screwed it up.) > > * > > People in the room started from "probably AD sponsored", but there was a shift as the session went on and things were starting to lean towards a BoF or, with even a bit more support, a WG. > > * > > There were still a few people who thought the work should not progress. > > * > > We did not get a good sense for which of the choices (reject, AD-sponsored, BoF/WG) people felt, "I definitely want this one and I can't live with the others" vs. "this is my preference, but I can live with this other one". We'll be listening for those comments on Monday, and on the list after we post the summary of Monday's session. > > * > > The opinions were quite varied on the particular documents. It seems that everybody had some complaints about each document, and that most people had some support for some sections of all of the documents. We are going to want to suss out what recommendation the group is going to make for which document(s) to start with (if any) if the consensus is for the work to move forward. > > * > > There was a good deal of support for some other kinds of activities (IAB program, other discussion venues), but those seemed independent of the document-related issues above. > > Let us know if we have mischaracterized any of that, or if there are any corrections that need to be made to the minutes. > > Talk to you on Monday. > > pr > -- > Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ > All connections to the world are tenuous at best > > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate - DATACTIVE Research Group - University of Amsterdam Postdoctoral Scholar (abd) - Communications Department - Texas A&M University Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Tue Sep 8 04:31:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5CF43A102B for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 04:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LPBveSzsLMQk for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 04:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31D153A1023 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 04:31:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=806; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1599564701; x=1600774301; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rR/PLU6Ntq8SoXt8/nOhs4qB+ktkNtQS0AsVCaGQT24=; b=TXlwZHLM+nxHb5WHKopHMv3rq0pQ03CSF+IU9GaqhVBl4oAa2MZKJuLU ddz272kCf85S6q19dKyea5udIYW6p4GaGWyVGwz4ByLgmIOzviqJIyMYO tN5Jy/xOkHPuLFLKyysbGvNa7I5v+KdSUS7CCn5snR5cYLYJryCXE6Kpw A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C1AAAwaldf/xbLJq1fHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFAgT4EAQELAYNuASAShGSJAog3nBwLAQEBDAEBLwQBAYRLAoI?= =?us-ascii?q?SJTcGDgIDAQELAQEFAQEBAgEGBG2FaIVzAQQBI1YFCwsaAiYCAlcGgzmCXSC?= =?us-ascii?q?xN3aBMoVThG2BDioBjUSCAIE4HIIfLj6EPYMXM4ItBLZqgm+DDZclAx6SA45?= =?us-ascii?q?TrlCDWAIEBgUCFYFqJIFXMxoIGxVlAYI/PRIZDY4rF44mPwNnAgYBCQEBAwm?= =?us-ascii?q?PeQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.76,405,1592870400"; d="scan'208";a="29417335" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 08 Sep 2020 11:31:37 +0000 Received: from [10.61.235.105] ([10.61.235.105]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 088BVa56030532 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Sep 2020 11:31:36 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 13:31:36 +0200 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Pete Resnick X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.235.105, [10.61.235.105] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Draft meeting minutes and summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 11:31:43 -0000 Hi Pete, Under the heading of corrections and clarifications... The minutes report that I said: > Have a preference for Bron's draft as a starting point, but don't want = to lose the work that Mallory and Niels have done, but perhaps that = shouldn't be in a BCP, but as referenced extra information. =20 I think I said (or attempted to say) something closer to the below: Yes, I have a preference for Bron=E2=80=99s draft as a starting point. = And I see value in finding a way to also keep Mallory=E2=80=99s and = Niels=E2=80=99 work alive. However, I don=E2=80=99t quite know what = venue should manage its development, because I share Barbara=E2=80=99s = concerns that we may not have enough of the right people in the room to = provide for proper review. Thanks, Eliot= From nobody Tue Sep 8 04:38:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31093A1058 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 04:38:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, SPOOFED_URL=0.001, SPOOFED_URL_HOST=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A1gKUT7N3flJ for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 04:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 548473A1053 for ; 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name="ATT00001.txt" Content-Description: ATT00001.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATT00001.txt"; size=330; creation-date="Tue, 08 Sep 2020 11:38:17 GMT"; modification-date="Tue, 08 Sep 2020 11:38:17 GMT" Content-ID: <8D1546A964F4A24AB95799C75726584A@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NClNwYXNtIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KU3Bhc21AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5wcm9vZnBvaW50 LmNvbS92Mi91cmw/dT1odHRwcy0zQV9fd3d3LmlldGYub3JnX21haWxtYW5fbGlzdGluZm9fc3Bh c20mZD1Ed0lDQWcmYz05NlpiWlpjYU1GNHcwRjRqcE42TFpnJnI9NExNMEdiUjBoOUZ2eDg2RnRz S0ktdyZtPWgzdlBHSG5FcmNGU1Q4VXlsSWRiTG9oY2w0alFHY0xYbGdyNklfNWpwd2smcz14bG1Z aUNqRXRSRG1ZZXRUY0hibUNEVFlDSjJuVlRuMTZzazRLbHh3ZlpvJmU9IA0K --_004_759A0AD6B1434D719CEC2C94C5A87E3Aakamaicom_-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 05:40:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 058853A0C8E for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="p3jvXOXxDKypSMs6tF4JebP6OgMI9vZ6I" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] another possibly problematic word X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:40:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --p3jvXOXxDKypSMs6tF4JebP6OgMI9vZ6I Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="H3D7hblZtuCkLiHpSudiKQ00mV4TSihEy"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <7d54db54-5060-b43b-865b-411a901ba36e@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] another possibly problematic word References: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> --H3D7hblZtuCkLiHpSudiKQ00mV4TSihEy Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7BDED18B82E4E97C127EFE8F" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7BDED18B82E4E97C127EFE8F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08/09/2020 12:38, Salz, Rich wrote: > This was news to me. FYI I believe it's archaic slang, that wasn't ever very common and perhaps only commonly used before the 1960's but that's just my impression from general reading and listening and could well vary from place to place, and time to time, the word being slang. I'm currently unconvinced by that one tbh. And not that convinced that curated lists of dodgy words is a good way to handle this. (*) S. (*) That may be due to also originating from a place where censorship was still somewhat common in my youth - in our case the censors were mainly interested in religion and maintaining their ideas of the good bits of the social status quo. One of their last gasps was banning "the life of Brian" movie;-) >=20 > From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" =E2= =80=A6 A > separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of the > word/term =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D. In British English this term is sla= ng for a > paedophile, > https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce > > I=E2=80=99m not saying that we should necessarily change this, but we = might > want to consider whether there is an alternative equivalent term that > could be used instead. =E2=80=A6 >=20 >=20 --------------7BDED18B82E4E97C127EFE8F Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 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b=i5K6eQWlOBuaNBpyTUD2pa6YkMNKIRFsoRjxbB9vJpvv6aKgHhu4ny5c+zHhtsjDdy2bqh7im7PV9ZrhoNsdqrXiAfF5E9Zzi156Seh7ybmXwLM9s9WPvCSH4BVXMBZVls+KhlRaXPFSH2ntRFRa+oZqalv2Le2q7nXEafRk1a7lvQAvkLo9yxFWruVZnP6rAAVg5G1fKY/ygByEfJ59YWLdRbJy/p9MtwPB8Wqmnz8AC631xF0IKEsTpWGGhDhQAczvAD/T9ILPU9odvJwU1uWRWlDIA3RNkWDmS+AJs0PgmsV9e9QYYuxvOAwqMamJsQybDrFXSxMBPt2N9bQK2Q== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 08 Sep 2020 16:20:57 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id C5169200521D; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 12:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: 8 Sep 2020 12:20:56 -0400 Message-Id: <20200908162056.C5169200521D@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: rsalz@akamai.com In-Reply-To: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] another possibly problematic word X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 16:21:16 -0000 In article <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> you write: >A separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of the word/term “nonce”. In British English this >term is slang for a paedophile, There is an unlimited supply of slang words and idioms that mean different things in different varieties of English, and we could spend an unlimited amount of time rooting* them out. It seems to me we need to consider the context and whether it plausibly would offend or demean people. For example, the US and UK meanings of to knock someone up are utterly different, but people invariably find that amusing, not offensive. R's, John * - I hear that in the Antipdes, "root" is a fairly vulgar slang sexual term, leading to some care in one's pronunciation of "router." But I don't see any need to change our terminology for the node at the top of a tree of data. From nobody Tue Sep 8 10:19:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F7EE3A0AFF for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 10:19:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B_2I6EL_ZFQL for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 10:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 334253A0AA9 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 10:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id s12so652wrw.11 for ; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:19:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=CiCah/AN6P6kMgmhoSacPH0inXDb6EGS0FGF5mc9Rws=; b=UG0xDALNyBdmSr7MpjA7rts1+bIyjapQ1osRNgVGWGSOx9/ANS/eAse+uDyw1YXgvl HYwDrEtNygZqA4HQkznw4WAHjCL7505J5NAV1CQJ9UODoTJ27SzBOijpPRI22A47jrW9 bF+vrohlKa27+ptHGCe0Yrh25dfPpX8D4UR0TnRMoI9StPdtC29JmeEHjZlOz+71t4VU p4BpOWLxQCt6uRiNyaThg/ZK6Im7zhrS+kHNeTYioaFcs2GGyWQ2JPeKsMAqKVuD4Bgv mnNGLTwtkvTVkJNHD1U1brGHCZ5iJpI7QNts2PUsY9d785+4euYCPunaYYIO4iax/EpO P7Hg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=CiCah/AN6P6kMgmhoSacPH0inXDb6EGS0FGF5mc9Rws=; b=La9sgdZ7vOMaS949kkgy3FCeZP1hGi8YO+lAcqxdtmts8x3fpPXu1I+pXXGTjoJfJd AfibezVQ8HHc8CvT5o/pWGItHAx338yizfX1cPM36Dumsbx8l2nHBh3ksPpXaY+iNalT Rl4ZLFzjzFzqk42JqC/zsWGG8YpD/6Vs7P5H06aLGQ7Yp4lUJXoUyVSAtwiSHgHVE2OR /TkXSm+2qVP7/Ro2E3sOXcq04YZJ8nnMbvBPJ/NzNCxOhDhHqCMjKrtdNt9USmNXrnmr tnKif5j45+uo5TIM5DPfZB1jrI8CpV5nJZjRzvkBGplwpG0taBpgpJ0d4U8R8KsXRl6X h/sw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334/Hv7N0GAZMS8tAREsbS2gdM4CYh8oSp1jYCcjFudY6UxLiDI asRSyuulKhzX8HZEqFI/tW8Cn4FqgI6HtQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyAovf9+Dp6bb7NUxmLkfsC+v2V+EG4c2Q+4BYOXfDMobvqMJUUMGnMGdqkL48ucG6Xnm1uIQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e6c8:: with SMTP id y8mr693127wrm.229.1599585586650; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:a473:eb4e:1195:7861? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:a473:eb4e:1195:7861]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b1sm152621wru.54.2020.09.08.10.19.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4D5B8748-0EBC-4B12-8B42-E3219217469E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 10:19:36 -0700 In-Reply-To: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: "Salz, Rich" References: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] another possibly problematic word X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 17:19:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4D5B8748-0EBC-4B12-8B42-E3219217469E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It does show up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonce Seem to me if it is being used in the context of security it=E2=80=99s = not an issue. Bob > On Sep 8, 2020, at 4:38 AM, Salz, Rich = wrote: >=20 > This was news to me. FYI >=20 > From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" > =E2=80=A6 > A separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of the = word/term =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D. In British English this term is = slang for a paedophile, = https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not saying that we should necessarily change this, but we = might want to consider whether there is an alternative equivalent term = that could be used instead. > =E2=80=A6 > _______________________________________________ > Spasm mailing list > Spasm@ietf.org > = https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma= n_listinfo_spasm&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3D4LM0GbR0h9Fvx86= FtsKI-w&m=3Dh3vPGHnErcFST8UylIdbLohcl4jQGcLXlgr6I_5jpwk&s=3DxlmYiCjEtRDmYe= tTcHbmCDTYCJ2nVTn16sk4KlxwfZo&e=3D > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_4D5B8748-0EBC-4B12-8B42-E3219217469E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl9XvSgACgkQrut0EXfn u6jq1Qf/Z0kWLbdjf2nbVCChzgdH8nZQyaQioG8/X8eeeF/Nf5S6vXdA2fIObQSz 0LUE4O2PCyK9oBcNmOwu893esinsYy7TzCidcR0DkNsX2oIFeDaWOM8vue3HdrRt HXDhzg9XyY3BlvTfACRajmhvWbT9gDDLwKWEmlG5XfngHri6RxzFQJJoseyV3G65 7cXj3fp61YWjb06Hyma3f+kbffm0W2LOo5NkXt09v+XTF2CSbEbo08ZhHH8hbCxn apyPQMy+It8+3R0UFprgjLFnjmQj97k3SDgNjtyAWjexWIjej3hq+mtKORENmWAP 94y/NeELiNfE5sXJSsjTyrElCLBo5A== =qfih -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4D5B8748-0EBC-4B12-8B42-E3219217469E-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 11:24:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB043A0C30 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 11:24:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 958XsPSQkNKJ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 11:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4AD123A0C29; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 11:24:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F63C89EA-597C-4A05-B26D-10D641C2AB61" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 06:24:46 +1200 In-Reply-To: <7d54db54-5060-b43b-865b-411a901ba36e@cs.tcd.ie> Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: Stephen Farrell References: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> <7d54db54-5060-b43b-865b-411a901ba36e@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] another possibly problematic word X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 18:24:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F63C89EA-597C-4A05-B26D-10D641C2AB61 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I haven't lived in the UK for over 10 years but when I was there this = was not archaic but was sort of regional (London and surrounding area + = criminal culture such as prisons, gritty TV shows) and common parlance = in that context. I was surprised when I discovered the security usage = in my 20s but I=E2=80=99ve never considered there to be much chance of = confusion between the two communities that use the word differently. Jay > On 9/09/2020, at 12:40 AM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 08/09/2020 12:38, Salz, Rich wrote: >> This was news to me. FYI >=20 > I believe it's archaic slang, that wasn't ever very common > and perhaps only commonly used before the 1960's but that's > just my impression from general reading and listening and > could well vary from place to place, and time to time, the > word being slang. >=20 > I'm currently unconvinced by that one tbh. And not that > convinced that curated lists of dodgy words is a good way > to handle this. (*) >=20 > S. >=20 > (*) That may be due to also originating from a place where > censorship was still somewhat common in my youth - in our > case the censors were mainly interested in religion and > maintaining their ideas of the good bits of the social > status quo. One of their last gasps was banning "the life > of Brian" movie;-) >=20 >>=20 >> From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" = =E2=80=A6 A >> separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of the >> word/term =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D. In British English this term is = slang for a >> paedophile, >> = https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m not saying that we should necessarily change this, but we = might >> want to consider whether there is an alternative equivalent term that >> could be used instead. =E2=80=A6 >>=20 >>=20 > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_F63C89EA-597C-4A05-B26D-10D641C2AB61 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = haven't lived in the UK for over 10 years but when I was there this was = not archaic but was sort of regional (London and surrounding area + = criminal culture such as prisons, gritty TV shows) and common parlance = in that context.  I was surprised when I discovered the security = usage in my 20s but I=E2=80=99ve never considered there to be much = chance of confusion between the two communities that use the word = differently.

Jay

On 9/09/2020, at 12:40 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:



On 08/09/2020 12:38, Salz, Rich wrote:
This was news to me. =  FYI

I believe it's = archaic slang, that wasn't ever very common
and perhaps = only commonly used before the 1960's but that's
just my = impression from general reading and listening and
could = well vary from place to place, and time to time, the
word = being slang.

I'm currently unconvinced by = that one tbh. And not that
convinced that curated lists of = dodgy words is a good way
to handle this. (*)

S.

(*) That may = be due to also originating from a place where
censorship = was still somewhat common in my youth - in our
case the = censors were mainly interested in religion and
maintaining = their ideas of the good bits of the social
status quo. One = of their last gasps was banning "the life
of Brian" = movie;-)


From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> =E2=80=A6 A
separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of = the
word/term =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D.  In British = English this term is slang for a
paedophile,
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce<ht= tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dictionary.cambridge.= org_dictionary_english_nonce&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3D4LM0GbR0h9Fvx86FtsKI-w&m=3Dh3vPGHnErcFST8UylIdbLohcl4jQGcLXlg= r6I_5jpwk&s=3D4NlmGbVCeTGF1CWzghVwoa1yDT9sIiWHbnji9xdIlzE&e=3D>=

I=E2=80=99m not saying that we should = necessarily change this, but we might
want to consider = whether there is an alternative equivalent term that
could = be used instead. =E2=80=A6


<0x5AB2FAF1= 7B172BEA.asc>--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_F63C89EA-597C-4A05-B26D-10D641C2AB61-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 21:36:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E7D3A0C79 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 21:36:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tyj8ae5qsg2e for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 21:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D522C3A0C74 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 21:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1kFrqE-0009Kl-L3 for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 00:36:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 00:36:12 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <279382A4B58065EA453877E5@PSB> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Monday's interim meeting, inclusiveness, and strategy X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 04:36:21 -0000 I'm going to try to keep this short enough for people to read, meaning that some details I'd explain in a longer note will get left out. It probably will still not be short enough; the topic is complex. If the result is confusing, please speak up. After thinking about the meeting discussion and some of the recent list postings, I think we are thinking about the issue in very different ways. That may be leading to some difficulty in communications and some options getting lost. I see general agreement that improving the IETF's openness and inclusivity is a good idea and that our being more sensitive to language is part of that, as are properly implemented anti-harassment policies and policies that mitigate against control of technical decision-making by a small cluster of companies and their employees and consultants. Where I'm seeing differences are around "why?" (e.g., is this mainly about inclusion or mainly about responding to industry or public trends to keep up (or improve) our image?). If it is the former, then I believe we need to think about it in the context of our other efforts to educate, encourage good behavior, and discourage bad behavior. In particular, we should be looking at the terminology and language problem with the approach taken in RFC 7776, i.e., that while we can and should state general principles, individual documents and phrasing are much more like harassment and bullying situations: while there are patterns that repeat across people and groups, each case is a little bit different. From that point of view, we don't have bad documents except as a result of people making decisions about what terminology to use... perhaps out of ignorance or perhaps after careful consideration of alternatives. We should be concentrating on more quiet, private, education, and counseling at least up to the point of someone saying "that usage was a considered decision" and then we should view the language as an integral part of a technical specification, one that is dealt with in the same ways as we try to reach consensus about other aspects of such specifications. Being more specific about particular terms and rules just invites the sorts of debates about linguistic and cultural principles about which the IETF has repeatedly proven to be very poor (and demonstrating that at great length). best, john From nobody Wed Sep 9 13:12:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1BA3A0D9C for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 13:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5bjgoIXLGNJt for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 13:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9B6B3A0D94 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 13:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QGE0412VQS7PA@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:12:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QGE004AHQRDK8@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 13:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Wed, 09 Sep 2020 13:11:38 -0700 Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 13:12:05 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-id: <2067f9b3-2452-fa2c-9c01-ee7aed0d75ec@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_aWDvN/tmOWwMjSytBinmKQ)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [200907] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] another possibly problematic word X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 20:12:09 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_aWDvN/tmOWwMjSytBinmKQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT   Well I was looking at some Android code the other day and came across the following:   "native int functionName();" This is highly problematic. I believe "indigenous" would be much preferred but I don't know how to go about addressing this egregious offense.   Dan. On 9/8/20 4:38 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > This was news to me.  FYI > > *From: *"Rob Wilton (rwilton)" ** > > … > > A separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of the > word/term “nonce”.  In British English this term is slang for a > paedophile, https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce > > > I’m not saying that we should necessarily change this, but we might > want to consider whether there is an alternative equivalent term that > could be used instead. > > … > > --Boundary_(ID_aWDvN/tmOWwMjSytBinmKQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
  Well I was looking at some Android code the other day and came across
the following:

  "native int functionName();"

This is highly problematic. I believe "indigenous" would be much preferred
but I don't know how to go about addressing this egregious offense.

  Dan.

On 9/8/20 4:38 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:

This was news to me.  FYI

 

From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>

…

A separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of the word/term “nonce”.  In British English this term is slang for a paedophile, https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce

 

I’m not saying that we should necessarily change this, but we might want to consider whether there is an alternative equivalent term that could be used instead.

…



--Boundary_(ID_aWDvN/tmOWwMjSytBinmKQ)-- From nobody Wed Sep 9 14:29:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2077D3A0EDA for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 14:29:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qmqWDWCbKJR8 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 14:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb31.google.com (mail-yb1-xb31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F6183A0EA5 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 14:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb31.google.com with SMTP id h20so2703371ybj.8 for ; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 14:29:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/forrJgxLc6+69R55tZAJkIQLM/zPe8LfITsOymSAl4=; b=A8YAsOktzj7vu7Nmdj+goP6Br6b37ydT1LPHWZwTv1Gr5Dtld6vIBZ7COzCAsh5gyN ghRfl6g6AJi23rBmh/ioAf/Y4FDUbOqNILgR5h6/DaNVsFRcRCLLeztUvPUgG04bNfwz TV3autP8ihhetv+ndeDvGE2tkqvI4+HectOl4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/forrJgxLc6+69R55tZAJkIQLM/zPe8LfITsOymSAl4=; b=lKJjl4ZIX4+XP8YAOgH1lk+ziJqF9O+XEg/VqVOKGuIGMgckBPQI5Ffj+asl0VPpFj NU1vXDo9t62kUxzxXJvdNuIhQ2uPi/GsuB9F6Ic+xXL2c5hqJv2T6V25UTySjfESeCft iLYvcc0kgchjRmOze3rNZ5CUmwRMRkpJPhpRByjuoqqgZdB2DH1fVVYgYVzIvDk4rXy4 N59al/2Lirr79CpmAGeR2VjjFhYmy6sH2aeneRYfoowztZyzDcBrG/rqMOLbrvNT09de dr4AELS7lNXxynGsm6yu3yJrOLb9827ys2bmTfX+hgnrTWs7w/IoJKTOx0z/bI16xhLc 1M6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533wezm3+T9wNGrlB3LlFseNuxB1ut1Sz72I9utJMhkf47CC/QyQ 4EidA6ke5Xta9kPJ3QyeWOwow5m82xquyo+X3hSh6g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZPE1xySYZvQwR4X5cK97yCcz874oNkAc3BSGWHjtG0aehwDvflWzSmkdkKcakc5D7I8kYqIdfDDnXmLykwIY= X-Received: by 2002:a25:aca3:: with SMTP id x35mr9183453ybi.248.1599686954105; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 14:29:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> <2067f9b3-2452-fa2c-9c01-ee7aed0d75ec@lounge.org> In-Reply-To: <2067f9b3-2452-fa2c-9c01-ee7aed0d75ec@lounge.org> From: Kyle Rose Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 17:29:02 -0400 Message-ID: To: Dan Harkins Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a6d50c05aee8245d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] another possibly problematic word X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 21:29:17 -0000 --000000000000a6d50c05aee8245d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As someone who is nonetheless sympathetic to your implication about the practicality of word policing, I think we could use less sarcasm/snark on IETF mailing lists in general. Let's not have a repeat of the ietf list thread. Kyle On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 4:12 PM Dan Harkins wrote: > > Well I was looking at some Android code the other day and came across > the following: > > "native int functionName();" > > This is highly problematic. I believe "indigenous" would be much preferre= d > but I don't know how to go about addressing this egregious offense. > > Dan. > > On 9/8/20 4:38 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > This was news to me. FYI > > > > *From: *"Rob Wilton (rwilton)" > > > =E2=80=A6 > > A separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of the > word/term =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D. In British English this term is slang= for a paedophile, > https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce > > > > > I=E2=80=99m not saying that we should necessarily change this, but we mig= ht want > to consider whether there is an alternative equivalent term that could be > used instead. > > =E2=80=A6 > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000a6d50c05aee8245d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As = someone who is nonetheless sympathetic to your implication about the practi= cality of word policing, I think we could use less sarcasm/snark on IETF ma= iling lists in general. Let's not have a repeat of the ietf list thread= .

Kyle

On We= d, Sep 9, 2020 at 4:12 PM Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

=C2=A0 Well I was looking at some Android code the other day and ca= me across
the following:

=C2=A0 "native int functionName();"

This is highly problematic. I believe "indigenous" would be= much preferred
but I don't know how to go about addressing this egregious offense.

=C2=A0 Dan.

On 9/8/20 4:38 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
=20 =20 =20

This was news to me.=C2=A0 FYI

=C2=A0

From: "Rob W= ilton (rwilton)" <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>

=E2=80=A6

A separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of the word/term =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D.= =C2=A0 In British English this term is slang for a paedophile, https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m not saying that we should necess= arily change this, but we might want to consider whether there is an alternative equivalent term that could be used instead.=

=E2=80=A6



--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000a6d50c05aee8245d-- From nobody Fri Sep 11 03:44:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32CE53A0E48; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 03:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3D8zsrSzDiq9; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 03:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FFC93A0E37; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 03:44:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=//PgbziIUwKqYDRytDaiY+ZPkGT3ue5OwNEE86yj/7Q=; b=ApFrzIhG/rKNZIanrrDMvstOCG hGUQnlAYNdZZkpZx0HswKfqcDtQvdi1nGe9NQ/8cVXXQrCLv0xR+0jLXfHJiIeQRU8p0e9hbu75hs tpRqYtANryKDwkJnuaj0UFwZ+hFV1poLvwpFQVcrdLXzHF/Z8mJ5XCiMNQ5sVRS+Ari3VE5RUp4nU I3x9HaMPqQYxMSpnS585UfzcKROsN73aw0h0mfJQdZWnruSta2/9P3Jl72FYAqNF6Ail+SVlmJve2 D35V40lhyRTLRdAmZXu4BUKHC6wU/jXAdBLgvfNkmiQn5hbvvvnSwYVxpYYHg/zyCpo2/7sT4U4Ge aGUMeDuQ==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=34206 helo=[192.168.0.80]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1kGgXs-0000aX-Ba; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 11:44:45 +0100 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: <2280E614-38D7-48AE-8BF7-EB6B362B534A@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1E0C8403-FEFE-4D5E-A1C5-4C9E742A2443" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 11:44:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Stephen Farrell , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: Jay Daley References: <759A0AD6-B143-4D71-9CEC-2C94C5A87E3A@akamai.com> <7d54db54-5060-b43b-865b-411a901ba36e@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] another possibly problematic word X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 10:44:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1E0C8403-FEFE-4D5E-A1C5-4C9E742A2443 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 This matches my understanding as someone who grew up in, and currently = lives in, the UK. I=E2=80=99ve had people react negatively to the term. Colin > On 8 Sep 2020, at 19:24, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > I haven't lived in the UK for over 10 years but when I was there this = was not archaic but was sort of regional (London and surrounding area + = criminal culture such as prisons, gritty TV shows) and common parlance = in that context. I was surprised when I discovered the security usage = in my 20s but I=E2=80=99ve never considered there to be much chance of = confusion between the two communities that use the word differently. >=20 > Jay >=20 >> On 9/09/2020, at 12:40 AM, Stephen Farrell > wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 08/09/2020 12:38, Salz, Rich wrote: >>> This was news to me. FYI >>=20 >> I believe it's archaic slang, that wasn't ever very common >> and perhaps only commonly used before the 1960's but that's >> just my impression from general reading and listening and >> could well vary from place to place, and time to time, the >> word being slang. >>=20 >> I'm currently unconvinced by that one tbh. And not that >> convinced that curated lists of dodgy words is a good way >> to handle this. (*) >>=20 >> S. >>=20 >> (*) That may be due to also originating from a place where >> censorship was still somewhat common in my youth - in our >> case the censors were mainly interested in religion and >> maintaining their ideas of the good bits of the social >> status quo. One of their last gasps was banning "the life >> of Brian" movie;-) >>=20 >>>=20 >>> From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" > =E2=80=A6 A >>> separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of the >>> word/term =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D. In British English this term is = slang for a >>> paedophile, >>> = https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce = >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99m not saying that we should necessarily change this, but = we might >>> want to consider whether there is an alternative equivalent term = that >>> could be used instead. =E2=80=A6 >>>=20 >>>=20 >> <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--=20 >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ --Apple-Mail=_1E0C8403-FEFE-4D5E-A1C5-4C9E742A2443 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 This = matches my understanding as someone who grew up in, and currently lives = in, the UK. I=E2=80=99ve had people react negatively to the term.

Colin



On 8 Sep = 2020, at 19:24, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

I haven't lived in the = UK for over 10 years but when I was there this was not archaic but was = sort of regional (London and surrounding area + criminal culture such as = prisons, gritty TV shows) and common parlance in that context.  I = was surprised when I discovered the security usage in my 20s but I=E2=80=99= ve never considered there to be much chance of confusion between the two = communities that use the word differently.

Jay

On = 9/09/2020, at 12:40 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:



On 08/09/2020 12:38, Salz, Rich wrote:
This was news to me. =  FYI

I believe it's = archaic slang, that wasn't ever very common
and perhaps = only commonly used before the 1960's but that's
just my = impression from general reading and listening and
could = well vary from place to place, and time to time, the
word = being slang.

I'm currently unconvinced by = that one tbh. And not that
convinced that curated lists of = dodgy words is a good way
to handle this. (*)

S.

(*) That may = be due to also originating from a place where
censorship = was still somewhat common in my youth - in our
case the = censors were mainly interested in religion and
maintaining = their ideas of the good bits of the social
status quo. One = of their last gasps was banning "the life
of Brian" = movie;-)


From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> =E2=80=A6 A
separate issue that we may want to consider relates to use of = the
word/term =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D.  In British = English this term is slang for a
paedophile,
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nonce<ht= tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dictionary.cambridge.= org_dictionary_english_nonce&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3D4LM0GbR0h9Fvx86FtsKI-w&m=3Dh3vPGHnErcFST8UylIdbLohcl4jQGcLXlg= r6I_5jpwk&s=3D4NlmGbVCeTGF1CWzghVwoa1yDT9sIiWHbnji9xdIlzE&e=3D>=

I=E2=80=99m not saying that we should = necessarily change this, but we might
want to consider = whether there is an alternative equivalent term that
could = be used instead. =E2=80=A6


<0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch



-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/




= --Apple-Mail=_1E0C8403-FEFE-4D5E-A1C5-4C9E742A2443--