From nobody Thu Oct 1 09:34:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D85993A10E9; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:34:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, francesca.palombini@ericsson.com, alissa@cooperw.in X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.17.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160157007242.10979.206661228223950821@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 09:34:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] gendispatch - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 109 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:34:33 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Francesca Palombini, a Chair of the gendispatch working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: General Area Dispatch Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Francesca Palombini Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: artarea cbor ace core lake quic dprive anima opsawg spring tls wpack webtrans raw secdispatch emailcore Technology Overlap: genarea People who must be present: Pete Resnick Alissa Cooper Francesca Palombini Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Oct 1 09:38:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5B73A10EC for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FhjtjkqBA2kv for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93A863A10F8 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A255BF22451 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:37:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id drcEEshwSRzo for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:37:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.10] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 311D7BF22448 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:37:57 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pete Resnick" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 11:37:56 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5706) Message-ID: <4159D471-9367-49F5-BB8A-8D8E37622E92@episteme.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Quick update X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 16:38:00 -0000 Folks, Just a quick note that I (and not Francesca) have been running behind on getting my part of the summary done. I promised Alissa and Francesca that I'd get them done earlier this week and failed again. But I'm on it and we'll get those to you soon. The meeting minutes are all done and out in the appropriate place (thanks to my co-chair). And as you've just seen, we've requested a slot for 109. Let us know if you have new proposals for the agenda soon. Cheers, pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Thu Oct 1 16:21:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC1A3A0A02 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:21:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=Ftr/n0/r; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=uRJDz4J9 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XPVd7f_AlO2U for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8AA53A0A01 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 16:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2F1C64 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 19:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 01 Oct 2020 19:21:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=cbuDtLw fi+ORPygsJ8DgnXPeo0vTjniZ3/q72LhYNK4=; b=Ftr/n0/rv75wvGuucYlNSwH yy5NUX8wkxfUPVD/SI5dnt+YoImUoWS5lEX4cu1O44XzdDrtA8xXZGGNX5puLxbt C/hlus35Gt75A9bikKpGZqJmyxy3xg9zR8eoi/uPa8XaCW2PMUd+05/c40UMIvZe x0VTIaGGY+vnzNlEjUXLLsB/wX+CeZPs3NHx44r0UnfFYbx2RoC9jY0rDblQRw7c q+l5xt1Y0QB1/Q4Tbx72KDG+CiIf2alzdCEppEIM++Ckm6gvPiDSl2UcsiVeBIfL zY0AKyrNi7NAp3k1EOVw1q82F3ZU8T+2SIgBVqjhJytDQCPGzx88+7KbP9lkW4Q= = DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=cbuDtL wfi+ORPygsJ8DgnXPeo0vTjniZ3/q72LhYNK4=; b=uRJDz4J91WfqvtdW9fB0Hq 0P+xpe/KzbG0NJCxip+Ojng3XtPcLk8VAOXSilW3IDnw2VOa79vL70ZFO5zH6JxA iaTVIvg4sUfs6o3kxai1/fpKLOpSHf/8lYzp4r1k0kvj41aCRe8S122jLRJj1yCW M7eTD5aa6EiqkB4HiV2Gil9PHdzkjx3/uSEhFHrckWXn4jhZBO6XKrXYivfm137r F5z0zuiP1pRxIvA+2Hf1vu8BPZlSQwrs12h2mXVeOoyxbIsEFn9ewvC0ho9cpHu1 r/EjSb3jsPP3nchs8QMvWjMgekePL/e2qPJkvALwBhUS8npJqWM3S6iilBJC344w == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrfeehgddujecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtre erreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhhonhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhgsehf rghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepudetteeiveehle ejgfevhfevkeekieekkedvgeekvefhteettdfgleelheeihedtnecuffhomhgrihhnpegv phhishhtvghmvgdrnhgvthdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghrohhnghesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlthgvrghm rdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1DD0E180201; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 19:21:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-382-ge235179-fm-20200928.002-ge2351794 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <84068b77-fc93-46af-ba52-fe0270e87212@dogfood.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4159D471-9367-49F5-BB8A-8D8E37622E92@episteme.net> References: <4159D471-9367-49F5-BB8A-8D8E37622E92@episteme.net> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 09:20:59 +1000 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=735f3164b016492eaa989125b6879ec2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Quick update X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:21:23 -0000 --735f3164b016492eaa989125b6879ec2 Content-Type: text/plain I have also been running behind on doing a refresh on my draft, so all good for me! It's on my list for next week though. Bron. On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, at 02:37, Pete Resnick wrote: > Folks, > > Just a quick note that I (and not Francesca) have been running behind on > getting my part of the summary done. I promised Alissa and Francesca > that I'd get them done earlier this week and failed again. But I'm on it > and we'll get those to you soon. > > The meeting minutes are all done and out in the appropriate place > (thanks to my co-chair). > > And as you've just seen, we've requested a slot for 109. Let us know if > you have new proposals for the agenda soon. > > Cheers, > > pr > -- > Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ > All connections to the world are tenuous at best > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --735f3164b016492eaa989125b6879ec2 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have also been running behind on doing a refresh on my d= raft, so all good for me!  It's on my list for next week though.

Bron.

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, at 02:37, Pete Resnick wrote:
Fo= lks,

Just a quick note that I (and not Francesca) have be= en running behind on 
ge= tting my part of the summary done. I promised Alissa and Francesca =
that I'd get them done earli= er this week and failed again. But I'm on it 
and we'll get those to you soon.

The= meeting minutes are all done and out in the appropriate place 
=
(thanks to my co-chair).

And as you've just seen, we've requested a slot for 109. Let us = know if 
you have new pr= oposals for the agenda soon.
=
Cheers,

pr
<= /div>
-- 
All connections to the world are tenuous at best

--&n= bsp;
Gendispatch mailing list=


--
  Bro= n Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailtea= m.com

--735f3164b016492eaa989125b6879ec2-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 13:17:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 310833A1102 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:17:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3qIkOVOc8a7Z for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E94F3A045E for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49ACBC13DD96 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:17:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cswpQ0Ev-0bS for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:17:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.10] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D4196C13DD88 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:17:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Pete Resnick To: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:17:28 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5726) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:17:45 -0000 Here is a summary of what your chairs have concluded is the result of the two virtual interim meetings we held on the issue of terminology in IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology, draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and draft-moore-exclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a couple of weeks for discussion of these conclusions on the list before we report back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how we think this ought to be dispatched. -- First, we find that there was rough support in both meetings for creating a document containing recommendations on terminology to use in technical work, and that such a document should be Informational status. However, there were concerns about describing motivations in such a document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any significant discussion of motivations ought to be avoided. After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of the first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with a preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was more ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would be better. Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within the meetings was to have a quick-spin WG. There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the terminology, but there were many concerns for how to structure such work in a WG and have it be successful. Several suggestions were made to have the IAB sponsor such work as part of their program on "Diversity, Inclusion, and Growth". The thought was that perhaps a discussion there could generate a path forward for IETF work. We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel has too much controversial discussion to be the basis of a document for the above mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology. There was rough support for recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point. -- We are looking for a two important things in the discussion here on the list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and believe that something was not discussed or that a point was missed by the people at the meeting that would change the conclusions in the above, please speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the outcome of the discussion from the meetings and therefore should have come to a different conclusion, please let us know. Of course, you are also welcome to ask questions about how we came to our summary. However, we don't need to hear "+1" or "I agree with the above" (we'll assume you do if you say nothing) and importantly we do not want to re-litigate discussions that happened during the meeting unless you have new information to contribute. Simply restating arguments isn't going to change the outcome. So please do re-read the minutes of the meetings before posting. Thanks for everyone's participation, Pete and Francesca [1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of that term before: Interminable and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to fall into a messy pit made by a rat. From nobody Tue Oct 13 14:10:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984943A0964 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:10:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4IeVzRA-gfLl for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91B0E3A0954 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:10:02 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.53]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 34389wpnfa-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:10:02 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:10:01 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:10:01 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:10:01 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Pete Resnick , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary Thread-Index: AQHWoZ3tGdNu616y2EqARzxFihxVy6mWBy8A Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 21:10:00 +0000 Message-ID: <0D45063F-5F89-4AF8-8D99-F58415C7C07A@akamai.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.40.20081201 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; 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[73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with UTF8SMTPSA id p65sm1072367ill.23.2020.10.13.14.17.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:17:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Pete Resnick , gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:17:23 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/82.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 21:17:27 -0000 Thank you very much Pete and Francesca for being thoughtful and patient=20 with this topic. I take issue with the negative connotation of the widely shared=20 sentiment that draft-knodel is controversial. It is indeed=20 controversial, because of its substance, and therefore that quality=20 shouldn't reflect upon whether or not it is a suitable basis for the=20 final phase of this work. In fact, I would argue that the draft *aimed*=20 to accurately capture and document the controversy in the context of the = IETF and so if we feel it is, therefore, controversial, then it has done = its job good and well. I'd like us to be brave in the face of this controversy not just to=20 overcome it, but to properly document it (and for some of us to live=20 through it) so that we may grow as a community such that the next=20 controversy doesn't tear us apart nearly so easily. While I want accord, I want more racial equality. And I do not think=20 erasure of discord over the issues of racial inequality in the IETF is=20 an effective way to achieve the latter. The path forward if draft-knodel were to be the basis for a WG is simply = to add to and improve the documentation about why the terminology=20 recommendations exist. Some of that comes from academia and some of it=20 from other corners of the technical community at this moment in time.=20 Niels and I would gladly welcome those improvements. -Mallory On 10/13/20 4:17 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > Here is a summary of what your chairs have concluded is the result of=20 > the two virtual interim meetings we held on the issue of terminology=20 > in IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology,=20 > draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and=20 > draft-moore-exclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a couple=20 > of weeks for discussion of these conclusions on the list before we=20 > report back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how we think = > this ought to be dispatched. > > --=20 > > First, we find that there was rough support in both meetings for=20 > creating a document containing recommendations on terminology to use=20 > in technical work, and that such a document should be Informational=20 > status. However, there were concerns about describing motivations in=20 > such a document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any significant=20 > discussion of motivations ought to be avoided. > > After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of the=20 > first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with a=20 > preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was=20 > more ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would be=20 > better. Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within the = > meetings was to have a quick-spin WG. > > There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader=20 > discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the=20 > terminology, but there were many concerns for how to structure such=20 > work in a WG and have it be successful. Several suggestions were made=20 > to have the IAB sponsor such work as part of their program on=20 > "Diversity, Inclusion, and Growth". The thought was that perhaps a=20 > discussion there could generate a path forward for IETF work. > > We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel has too=20 > much controversial discussion to be the basis of a document for the=20 > above mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology. There was rough support=20 > for recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point. > > --=20 > > We are looking for a two important things in the discussion here on=20 > the list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and=20 > believe that something was not discussed or that a point was missed by = > the people at the meeting that would change the conclusions in the=20 > above, please speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the=20 > outcome of the discussion from the meetings and therefore should have=20 > come to a different conclusion, please let us know. Of course, you are = > also welcome to ask questions about how we came to our summary.=20 > However, we don't need to hear "+1" or "I agree with the above" (we'll = > assume you do if you say nothing) and importantly we do not want to=20 > re-litigate discussions that happened during the meeting unless you=20 > have new information to contribute. Simply restating arguments isn't=20 > going to change the outcome. So please do re-read the minutes of the=20 > meetings before posting. > > Thanks for everyone's participation, > > Pete and Francesca > > [1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of that term before:=20 > Interminable and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to fall=20 > into a messy pit made by a rat. > --=20 Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Tue Oct 13 16:05:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EA13A11F8 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:05:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HYVMJYduRZpP for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9DDD3A11F6 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QI529XAUXGGWW@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:05:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QI500HKCXAZCX@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:01:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:05:02 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [201013a] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 23:05:06 -0000 On 10/13/20 2:17 PM, Mallory Knodel wrote: > Thank you very much Pete and Francesca for being thoughtful and > patient with this topic. > > I take issue with the negative connotation of the widely shared > sentiment that draft-knodel is controversial. It is indeed > controversial, because of its substance, and therefore that quality > shouldn't reflect upon whether or not it is a suitable basis for the > final phase of this work. In fact, I would argue that the draft > *aimed* to accurately capture and document the controversy in the > context of the IETF and so if we feel it is, therefore, controversial, > then it has done its job good and well.   I don't think you're characterizing the controversy accurately. It is not that the topic is controversial and you have captured that in your document, the controversy is the way you describe issues, the fallacious logic, and the baseless accusations you make in your document that are controversial. > I'd like us to be brave in the face of this controversy not just to > overcome it, but to properly document it (and for some of us to live > through it)   Live through it? I'm sorry, have lives been threatened? I missed that. What _exactly_ are you talking about? > so that we may grow as a community such that the next controversy > doesn't tear us apart nearly so easily. > > While I want accord, I want more racial equality. And I do not think > erasure of discord over the issues of racial inequality in the IETF is > an effective way to achieve the latter.   I want racial equality too (and a cure for cancer!). But imposing speech codes and calling people racist is not the way to go about achieving that. The mere existence of a racial disparity (from some idealized "norm") is not evidence of racism, otherwise the NBA is the most racist organization in the USA if not the world given it is nearly 75% black when blacks make up 13% of the population.   It seems that you're suggesting that publication of your draft, and the changing of certain metaphors in RFCs, is an effective way to achieve racial equality in the IETF. That is magical thinking. It's unhinged from reality. > The path forward if draft-knodel were to be the basis for a WG is > simply to add to and improve the documentation about why the > terminology recommendations exist. Some of that comes from academia > and some of it from other corners of the technical community at this > moment in time. Niels and I would gladly welcome those improvements.   I provided comments in email to you and Niels. I gave you comments in an online IEEE 802 meeting when you tried (and failed I should note, in spite of accusations to the contrary made later) to get your draft's recommendations enacted in IEEE 802. And I gave you comments in the gendispatch meeting. You never replied to any of them, either in email or in the meetings. You just ignored me.   Which isn't to say that no changes were made. I complained about how you called a person out, by name, as a racist for a comment made on a blog post 15 years ago. That was most unprofessional and I'm glad you removed it, but the text you replaced it with alleged racism among IETF participants for discussing this matter. You're basically calling me a racist (since I was one of the participants who tried to discuss this matter with you) which is outrageous. You should be glad I'm not the litigious sort.   So your words say "we welcome improvements" and your actions say "if you disagree with us it means you're a racist." That is not the way to form consensus and it's not the way we get things done in the IETF.   I agree with the chairs' observations: draft-gondwana is the way to go.   Dan. > -Mallory > > On 10/13/20 4:17 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: >> Here is a summary of what your chairs have concluded is the result of >> the two virtual interim meetings we held on the issue of terminology >> in IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology, >> draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and >> draft-moore-exclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a couple >> of weeks for discussion of these conclusions on the list before we >> report back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how we >> think this ought to be dispatched. >> >> -- >> >> First, we find that there was rough support in both meetings for >> creating a document containing recommendations on terminology to use >> in technical work, and that such a document should be Informational >> status. However, there were concerns about describing motivations in >> such a document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any significant >> discussion of motivations ought to be avoided. >> >> After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of the >> first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with a >> preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was >> more ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would be >> better. Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within >> the meetings was to have a quick-spin WG. >> >> There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader >> discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the >> terminology, but there were many concerns for how to structure such >> work in a WG and have it be successful. Several suggestions were made >> to have the IAB sponsor such work as part of their program on >> "Diversity, Inclusion, and Growth". The thought was that perhaps a >> discussion there could generate a path forward for IETF work. >> >> We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel has too >> much controversial discussion to be the basis of a document for the >> above mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology. There was rough support >> for recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point. >> >> -- >> >> We are looking for a two important things in the discussion here on >> the list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and >> believe that something was not discussed or that a point was missed >> by the people at the meeting that would change the conclusions in the >> above, please speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the >> outcome of the discussion from the meetings and therefore should have >> come to a different conclusion, please let us know. Of course, you >> are also welcome to ask questions about how we came to our summary. >> However, we don't need to hear "+1" or "I agree with the above" >> (we'll assume you do if you say nothing) and importantly we do not >> want to re-litigate discussions that happened during the meeting >> unless you have new information to contribute. Simply restating >> arguments isn't going to change the outcome. So please do re-read the >> minutes of the meetings before posting. >> >> Thanks for everyone's participation, >> >> Pete and Francesca >> >> [1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of that term before: >> Interminable and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to fall >> into a messy pit made by a rat. >> From nobody Tue Oct 13 17:06:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76A13A1262 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:06:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ctQZ_b8l6nns; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3F963A0CF4; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 13:06:42 +1300 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> To: Dan Harkins X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:06:48 -0000 Dan Noting that I have absolutely no authority in this matter, either = directly or indirectly, but that the emerging consensus is that I should = be free to contribute to areas where I have no authority, I want to = state that I think your message below has crossed a line of tolerable = behaviour, even with a generous interpretation of "robust discourse". = To help you understand why I think that I have annotated your message = below: > On 14/10/2020, at 12:05 PM, Dan Harkins wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 10/13/20 2:17 PM, Mallory Knodel wrote: >> Thank you very much Pete and Francesca for being thoughtful and = patient with this topic. >>=20 >> I take issue with the negative connotation of the widely shared = sentiment that draft-knodel is controversial. It is indeed = controversial, because of its substance, and therefore that quality = shouldn't reflect upon whether or not it is a suitable basis for the = final phase of this work. In fact, I would argue that the draft *aimed* = to accurately capture and document the controversy in the context of the = IETF and so if we feel it is, therefore, controversial, then it has done = its job good and well. >=20 > I don't think you're characterizing the controversy accurately. It = is not that the topic is > controversial and you have captured that in your document, the = controversy is the way > you describe issues, the fallacious logic, and the baseless = accusations you make in your > document that are controversial. "fallacious logic" indirectly but still quite clearly attacks Mallory's = intelligence >=20 >> I'd like us to be brave in the face of this controversy not just to = overcome it, but to properly document it (and for some of us to live = through it)=20 >=20 > Live through it? I'm sorry, have lives been threatened? I missed = that. What _exactly_ are you > talking about? Asking "have lives been threatened" is belittling of Mallory=E2=80=99s = views and personal experience. >=20 >> so that we may grow as a community such that the next controversy = doesn't tear us apart nearly so easily. >>=20 >> While I want accord, I want more racial equality. And I do not think = erasure of discord over the issues of racial inequality in the IETF is = an effective way to achieve the latter. >=20 > I want racial equality too (and a cure for cancer!). "and a cure for cancer" is a rude way of invalidating someone=E2=80=99s = beliefs. > But imposing speech codes and calling people > racist is not the way to go about achieving that. The mere existence = of a racial disparity (from some > idealized "norm") is not evidence of racism, otherwise the NBA is the = most racist organization > in the USA if not the world given it is nearly 75% black when blacks = make up 13% of the population. >=20 > It seems that you're suggesting that publication of your draft, and = the changing of certain > metaphors in RFCs, is an effective way to achieve racial equality in = the IETF. That is magical > thinking. It's unhinged from reality. "magical thinking" and "unhinged from reality" are both rude personal = attacks on Mallory=E2=80=99s intelligence, mental health, skills and = more. >=20 >> The path forward if draft-knodel were to be the basis for a WG is = simply to add to and improve the documentation about why the terminology = recommendations exist. Some of that comes from academia and some of it = from other corners of the technical community at this moment in time. = Niels and I would gladly welcome those improvements. >=20 > I provided comments in email to you and Niels. I gave you comments = in an online IEEE 802 > meeting when you tried (and failed I should note, in spite of = accusations to the contrary > made later) to get your draft's recommendations enacted in IEEE 802. = And I gave you > comments in the gendispatch meeting. You never replied to any of them, = either in email or > in the meetings. You just ignored me. >=20 > Which isn't to say that no changes were made. I complained about how = you called a person > out, by name, as a racist for a comment made on a blog post 15 years = ago. That was most > unprofessional and I'm glad you removed it, but the text you replaced = it with alleged racism > among IETF participants for discussing this matter. You're basically = calling me a racist (since "basically calling me a racist" is a significant misrepresentation that = provides an excuse for a claim that you have been wronged and that then = justifies the threat that follows. > I was one of the participants who tried to discuss this matter with = you) which is outrageous. > You should be glad I'm not the litigious sort. That is a threat and "You should be glad I=E2=80=99m not" does not stop = it from being one. >=20 > So your words say "we welcome improvements" and your actions say "if = you disagree with > us it means you're a racist." That latter claim is also a significant misrepresentation. > That is not the way to form consensus and it's not the way > we get things done in the IETF. In my opinion the only way get consensus is a discourse that does not = prevent participation, whether that prevention is directly through = ferocious personal attacks or indirectly through exclusionary language, = otherwise all you get is consensus among those who could stand to stay = in the room. Jay >=20 > I agree with the chairs' observations: draft-gondwana is the way to = go. >=20 > Dan. >=20 >> -Mallory >>=20 >> On 10/13/20 4:17 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: >>> Here is a summary of what your chairs have concluded is the result = of the two virtual interim meetings we held on the issue of terminology = in IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology, = draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and = draft-moore-exclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a couple of = weeks for discussion of these conclusions on the list before we report = back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how we think this = ought to be dispatched. >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>>=20 >>> First, we find that there was rough support in both meetings for = creating a document containing recommendations on terminology to use in = technical work, and that such a document should be Informational status. = However, there were concerns about describing motivations in such a = document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any significant discussion = of motivations ought to be avoided. >>>=20 >>> After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of the = first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with a = preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was more = ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would be better. = Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within the meetings = was to have a quick-spin WG. >>>=20 >>> There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader = discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the terminology, = but there were many concerns for how to structure such work in a WG and = have it be successful. Several suggestions were made to have the IAB = sponsor such work as part of their program on "Diversity, Inclusion, and = Growth". The thought was that perhaps a discussion there could generate = a path forward for IETF work. >>>=20 >>> We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel has too = much controversial discussion to be the basis of a document for the = above mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology. There was rough support = for recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point. >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>>=20 >>> We are looking for a two important things in the discussion here on = the list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and = believe that something was not discussed or that a point was missed by = the people at the meeting that would change the conclusions in the = above, please speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the = outcome of the discussion from the meetings and therefore should have = come to a different conclusion, please let us know. Of course, you are = also welcome to ask questions about how we came to our summary. However, = we don't need to hear "+1" or "I agree with the above" (we'll assume you = do if you say nothing) and importantly we do not want to re-litigate = discussions that happened during the meeting unless you have new = information to contribute. Simply restating arguments isn't going to = change the outcome. So please do re-read the minutes of the meetings = before posting. >>>=20 >>> Thanks for everyone's participation, >>>=20 >>> Pete and Francesca >>>=20 >>> [1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of that term before: = Interminable and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to fall = into a messy pit made by a rat. >>>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Tue Oct 13 19:17:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466473A13E0 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 19:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.312 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.312 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9gWULXYky4f3 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 19:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x632.google.com (mail-pl1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 417B53A1331 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x632.google.com with SMTP id t18so982146plo.1 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wSHuc9c635d6o6A4IFJx57H2mrZaTRbJoUgY246fv/8=; b=jW+vJkMxuEcQyquJmFWHnoz2r/Al09j/K+iPbw58N8jytce5IMP4Hl5qQUAn/bvNNh srhKvbwlSjUO5ZrDhvIVE49UdKrecZMua//LwXwNMUcer1k38y+KhjDVeHvcGT/YlSel vbjIfJ1gqeRuIA85ifpU5JTsgmEljkY2ZwCFRSvLD3Jv6BX8kO3VTPa4wS8sbAvo1EkG n6AyhOH5VErNqdFBZQkKGaAHYTehuK7ov3d0EiCWpENOQNK+JyfUVozZhAaqVKUqpaFo X6XIISJLGhrOTz21gJV8oajwF7X7PQaOlsUZ68NkNqkp6nX1mlhBtFxd7Z+KOa4Y+Xqj YfBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wSHuc9c635d6o6A4IFJx57H2mrZaTRbJoUgY246fv/8=; b=VYVJzzBlEhs7jhR+SRzajnllQ1fV2O7aUX6WzmYT4sgPw4WlUKq5/+F8upgvans/gR 7PpeS3c9TATqnazC4MQWjXMMpodHifeyYGfFEemCiaR7BKo9E1tYAyZS4XcRtVgFy+r6 AgrkosDUv2Om0vn+2MYL5hmKApOGTSsFilxQ4XmJmdw8iYan+e2CP6S3JJHQF8JyvAdf CV2bRZBF8suyiZTbsMIBo3qgtLXd2tVBgZ/c+aZ7CKM7BY5SZBaRQp7g3SFlN1duzGp2 XbWvqXjN9lmK+hudX/rv1vHPE0spYqhTJY2lUZKNZfOKd38JhttX1MGt3rf9Vjb6SSG0 IRyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Xf7Cq+rPwBTHpasbwLURhxSgYclq/tElTRTSkFrzXc18IcumI NMAcicoq01/QcfXvyDBWUJIIvj0tDixyFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzVXJHWeQTeR5RSh7Sm5JSVV4UzJ5b7EjyO8/Y25wq4/eGiwwF0bgKo96FLx2M7sko+MBLZYw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:309:: with SMTP id ay9mr1229218pjb.39.1602641837134; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 19:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.132.159]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y27sm1080128pfr.122.2020.10.13.19.17.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Oct 2020 19:17:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Mallory Knodel , Pete Resnick , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 15:17:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:17:39 -0000 Hi Mallory, On 14-Oct-20 10:17, Mallory Knodel wrote: > Thank you very much Pete and Francesca for being thoughtful and patient > with this topic. > > I take issue with the negative connotation of the widely shared > sentiment that draft-knodel is controversial. It is indeed > controversial, because of its substance, and therefore that quality > shouldn't reflect upon whether or not it is a suitable basis for the > final phase of this work. In fact, I would argue that the draft *aimed* > to accurately capture and document the controversy in the context of the > IETF and so if we feel it is, therefore, controversial, then it has done > its job good and well. Let's stipulate that this is true, including the past tense. > I'd like us to be brave in the face of this controversy not just to > overcome it, but to properly document it (and for some of us to live > through it) so that we may grow as a community such that the next > controversy doesn't tear us apart nearly so easily. There I disagree, and I agree with Pete's and Francesca's summary. Paraphrasing, there is good reason to believe that we can fairly quickly agree on a document that lists terms to be avoided when reasonably possible, and good reason to believe that we could *not* quickly agree on a document that goes into the wider arguments. Functionally, that isn't much different from what W3C has done, except that they chose to use a web page, which is natural for them, as an RFC is for us. > While I want accord, I want more racial equality. And I do not think > erasure of discord over the issues of racial inequality in the IETF is > an effective way to achieve the latter. I haven't seen discord about gender, racial, national, religious or other kinds of inequality here. I have seen discord about whether language choices do or do not perpetuate inequalities. > The path forward if draft-knodel were to be the basis for a WG is simply > to add to and improve the documentation about why the terminology > recommendations exist. Some of that comes from academia and some of it > from other corners of the technical community at this moment in time. Unfortunately, I think that would be the best way to drag out the discussion for months. The less we say, the sooner we can get a result. Regards Brian Carpenter > Niels and I would gladly welcome those improvements. > > -Mallory > > On 10/13/20 4:17 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: >> Here is a summary of what your chairs have concluded is the result of >> the two virtual interim meetings we held on the issue of terminology >> in IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology, >> draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and >> draft-moore-exclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a couple >> of weeks for discussion of these conclusions on the list before we >> report back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how we think >> this ought to be dispatched. >> >> -- >> >> First, we find that there was rough support in both meetings for >> creating a document containing recommendations on terminology to use >> in technical work, and that such a document should be Informational >> status. However, there were concerns about describing motivations in >> such a document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any significant >> discussion of motivations ought to be avoided. >> >> After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of the >> first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with a >> preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was >> more ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would be >> better. Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within the >> meetings was to have a quick-spin WG. >> >> There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader >> discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the >> terminology, but there were many concerns for how to structure such >> work in a WG and have it be successful. Several suggestions were made >> to have the IAB sponsor such work as part of their program on >> "Diversity, Inclusion, and Growth". The thought was that perhaps a >> discussion there could generate a path forward for IETF work. >> >> We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel has too >> much controversial discussion to be the basis of a document for the >> above mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology. There was rough support >> for recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point. >> >> -- >> >> We are looking for a two important things in the discussion here on >> the list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and >> believe that something was not discussed or that a point was missed by >> the people at the meeting that would change the conclusions in the >> above, please speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the >> outcome of the discussion from the meetings and therefore should have >> come to a different conclusion, please let us know. Of course, you are >> also welcome to ask questions about how we came to our summary. >> However, we don't need to hear "+1" or "I agree with the above" (we'll >> assume you do if you say nothing) and importantly we do not want to >> re-litigate discussions that happened during the meeting unless you >> have new information to contribute. Simply restating arguments isn't >> going to change the outcome. So please do re-read the minutes of the >> meetings before posting. >> >> Thanks for everyone's participation, >> >> Pete and Francesca >> >> [1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of that term before: >> Interminable and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to fall >> into a messy pit made by a rat. >> From nobody Wed Oct 14 09:16:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17AB83A0F75; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:16:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C373B3A00C4 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:22:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mI7TXZVXFGLS for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32e.google.com (mail-ot1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F68C3A011B for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id l4so166000ota.7 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:22:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K0gMQ1XOdZvJe144Sks37NSYEC3AygI4LgvycIdWagg=; b=eiJcqFaP/y2B7K0zxNx5mQt81bsB9+l/HRMAP4xDjRz4YtPZMDzRu7i3u5C5QlRM+G 0oibQYTJuJY+qCKTcnPhxHBG36C7f2ABnaSPoil5Do+V9E3GgQLf6MPW91LGReE7vUkq 4S6LemGPULXDLoKX7quHJWAsOZHDK+o3NOl1K5/uXf0M1ynp1Dr7nDXjVHUKgJ2dwAGf eZX+LkkxTD0Tilk1O1tJOBCXKljahuU7Leb8S7ysFewsgQyMNnTrWFaz9/nq6PiRzfSz JTrkLRsd76kPCj0AKT63BXzA9FJhWvqr3J2l3gM/fyNy2Dg9fxMUZjzYLaDqmSAsGT7a 0eng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K0gMQ1XOdZvJe144Sks37NSYEC3AygI4LgvycIdWagg=; b=fAp1O9Aa9bxb8SWoCfcUoFFVcyccB5+rhx4YXnRnXeOcxkeELGZveARZ+BVe+clNaq WE9EGIb2eAzXPgbML2ybTkR+i4o1FtntuDUAdv9q0h9v7fOKLg4M0tqb5mPBlyFIcqvJ kVyZaVjHv06k/Ion3e/U2RLKg2DJ2nxvqMWxvj0u9IaeFvaqUO5CHTFPw7y+uUgGHb/0 iF9qr+yGgF/A0CBED6gG5/kKBcWutsXaOSO9rFIbXUgHgTErTfZ+4dCiWPuaDqGZ4DEw vCTmn0riQWv0I8zt0+cCnzdDXUi+DlJgRKfeag2FAVzWrIkkBIyCnPx+lO33O3+PHgiy rErQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5322MvcWsW1JQNBTwNRFXB6UNK3xiESMyMsKMaaI7mbjVaosG8WU KZzXzYqV0hoG4N6NXsDzV1hmqD6BYaXVR/IjV10= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzUESCReXvthf2FpkIP1sj2dqSCScFDIOsQO1RA1Wa79xXDY1e2YmEBmZHObClx3qskAZ6xAkbfgXqf/qsY/Uo= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2231:: with SMTP id o46mr2741878ota.278.1602692545668; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:22:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> In-Reply-To: From: Mary Barnes Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:22:14 -0500 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Mallory Knodel , Pete Resnick , gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000de696905b1a3ef6a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 16:22:29 -0000 --000000000000de696905b1a3ef6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I totally agree with Brian's assessment. Regards, Mary. On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:18 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Mallory, > > On 14-Oct-20 10:17, Mallory Knodel wrote: > > Thank you very much Pete and Francesca for being thoughtful and patient > > with this topic. > > > > I take issue with the negative connotation of the widely shared > > sentiment that draft-knodel is controversial. It is indeed > > controversial, because of its substance, and therefore that quality > > shouldn't reflect upon whether or not it is a suitable basis for the > > final phase of this work. In fact, I would argue that the draft *aimed* > > to accurately capture and document the controversy in the context of the > > IETF and so if we feel it is, therefore, controversial, then it has done > > its job good and well. > > Let's stipulate that this is true, including the past tense. > > > I'd like us to be brave in the face of this controversy not just to > > overcome it, but to properly document it (and for some of us to live > > through it) so that we may grow as a community such that the next > > controversy doesn't tear us apart nearly so easily. > > There I disagree, and I agree with Pete's and Francesca's summary. > Paraphrasing, there is good reason to believe that we can fairly quickly > agree on a document that lists terms to be avoided when reasonably > possible, > and good reason to believe that we could *not* quickly agree on a document > that goes into the wider arguments. > > Functionally, that isn't much different from what W3C has done, except > that they chose to use a web page, which is natural for them, as an RFC > is for us. > > > While I want accord, I want more racial equality. And I do not think > > erasure of discord over the issues of racial inequality in the IETF is > > an effective way to achieve the latter. > > I haven't seen discord about gender, racial, national, religious or other > kinds of inequality here. I have seen discord about whether language > choices do or do not perpetuate inequalities. > > > The path forward if draft-knodel were to be the basis for a WG is simply > > to add to and improve the documentation about why the terminology > > recommendations exist. Some of that comes from academia and some of it > > from other corners of the technical community at this moment in time. > > Unfortunately, I think that would be the best way to drag out the > discussion for months. The less we say, the sooner we can get a result. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > > Niels and I would gladly welcome those improvements. > > > > -Mallory > > > > On 10/13/20 4:17 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > >> Here is a summary of what your chairs have concluded is the result of > >> the two virtual interim meetings we held on the issue of terminology > >> in IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology, > >> draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and > >> draft-moore-exclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a couple > >> of weeks for discussion of these conclusions on the list before we > >> report back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how we think > >> this ought to be dispatched. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> First, we find that there was rough support in both meetings for > >> creating a document containing recommendations on terminology to use > >> in technical work, and that such a document should be Informational > >> status. However, there were concerns about describing motivations in > >> such a document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any significant > >> discussion of motivations ought to be avoided. > >> > >> After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of the > >> first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with a > >> preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was > >> more ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would be > >> better. Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within the > >> meetings was to have a quick-spin WG. > >> > >> There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader > >> discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the > >> terminology, but there were many concerns for how to structure such > >> work in a WG and have it be successful. Several suggestions were made > >> to have the IAB sponsor such work as part of their program on > >> "Diversity, Inclusion, and Growth". The thought was that perhaps a > >> discussion there could generate a path forward for IETF work. > >> > >> We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel has too > >> much controversial discussion to be the basis of a document for the > >> above mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology. There was rough support > >> for recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> We are looking for a two important things in the discussion here on > >> the list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and > >> believe that something was not discussed or that a point was missed by > >> the people at the meeting that would change the conclusions in the > >> above, please speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the > >> outcome of the discussion from the meetings and therefore should have > >> come to a different conclusion, please let us know. Of course, you are > >> also welcome to ask questions about how we came to our summary. > >> However, we don't need to hear "+1" or "I agree with the above" (we'll > >> assume you do if you say nothing) and importantly we do not want to > >> re-litigate discussions that happened during the meeting unless you > >> have new information to contribute. Simply restating arguments isn't > >> going to change the outcome. So please do re-read the minutes of the > >> meetings before posting. > >> > >> Thanks for everyone's participation, > >> > >> Pete and Francesca > >> > >> [1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of that term before: > >> Interminable and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to fall > >> into a messy pit made by a rat. > >> > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000de696905b1a3ef6a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I totally agree with Brian's assessment.

Regards,
Mary.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:18 PM Brian E= Carpenter <brian.e.carpe= nter@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Mallory,

On 14-Oct-20 10:17, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> Thank you very much Pete and Francesca for being thoughtful and patien= t
> with this topic.
>
> I take issue with the negative connotation of the widely shared
> sentiment that draft-knodel is controversial. It is indeed
> controversial, because of its substance, and therefore that quality > shouldn't reflect upon whether or not it is a suitable basis for t= he
> final phase of this work. In fact, I would argue that the draft *aimed= *
> to accurately capture and document the controversy in the context of t= he
> IETF and so if we feel it is, therefore, controversial, then it has do= ne
> its job good and well.

Let's stipulate that this is true, including the past tense.

> I'd like us to be brave in the face of this controversy not just t= o
> overcome it, but to properly document it (and for some of us to live <= br> > through it) so that we may grow as a community such that the next
> controversy doesn't tear us apart nearly so easily.

There I disagree, and I agree with Pete's and Francesca's summary.<= br> Paraphrasing, there is good reason to believe that we can fairly quickly agree on a document that lists terms to be avoided when reasonably possible= ,
and good reason to believe that we could *not* quickly agree on a document<= br> that goes into the wider arguments.

Functionally, that isn't much different from what W3C has done, except<= br> that they chose to use a web page, which is natural for them, as an RFC
is for us.

> While I want accord, I want more racial equality. And I do not think <= br> > erasure of discord over the issues of racial inequality in the IETF is=
> an effective way to achieve the latter.

I haven't seen discord about gender, racial, national, religious or oth= er
kinds of inequality here. I have seen discord about whether language
choices do or do not perpetuate inequalities.

> The path forward if draft-knodel were to be the basis for a WG is simp= ly
> to add to and improve the documentation about why the terminology
> recommendations exist. Some of that comes from academia and some of it=
> from other corners of the technical community at this moment in time.<= br>
Unfortunately, I think that would be the best way to drag out the
discussion for months. The less we say, the sooner we can get a result.

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter

> Niels and I would gladly welcome those improvements.
>
> -Mallory
>
> On 10/13/20 4:17 PM, Pete Resnick wrote:
>> Here is a summary of what your chairs have concluded is the result= of
>> the two virtual interim meetings we held on the issue of terminolo= gy
>> in IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology, >> draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and
>> draft-moore-exclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a = couple
>> of weeks for discussion of these conclusions on the list before we=
>> report back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how = we think
>> this ought to be dispatched.
>>
>> --
>>
>> First, we find that there was rough support in both meetings for <= br> >> creating a document containing recommendations on terminology to u= se
>> in technical work, and that such a document should be Informationa= l
>> status. However, there were concerns about describing motivations = in
>> such a document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any s= ignificant
>> discussion of motivations ought to be avoided.
>>
>> After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of th= e
>> first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with= a
>> preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there wa= s
>> more ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would= be
>> better. Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within= the
>> meetings was to have a quick-spin WG.
>>
>> There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broade= r
>> discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the
>> terminology, but there were many concerns for how to structure suc= h
>> work in a WG and have it be successful. Several suggestions were m= ade
>> to have the IAB sponsor such work as part of their program on
>> "Diversity, Inclusion, and Growth". The thought was that= perhaps a
>> discussion there could generate a path forward for IETF work.
>>
>> We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel has to= o
>> much controversial discussion to be the basis of a document for th= e
>> above mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology. There was rough supp= ort
>> for recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point. >>
>> --
>>
>> We are looking for a two important things in the discussion here o= n
>> the list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and =
>> believe that something was not discussed or that a point was misse= d by
>> the people at the meeting that would change the conclusions in the=
>> above, please speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the=
>> outcome of the discussion from the meetings and therefore should h= ave
>> come to a different conclusion, please let us know. Of course, you= are
>> also welcome to ask questions about how we came to our summary. >> However, we don't need to hear "+1" or "I agree= with the above" (we'll
>> assume you do if you say nothing) and importantly we do not want t= o
>> re-litigate discussions that happened during the meeting unless yo= u
>> have new information to contribute. Simply restating arguments isn= 't
>> going to change the outcome. So please do re-read the minutes of t= he
>> meetings before posting.
>>
>> Thanks for everyone's participation,
>>
>> Pete and Francesca
>>
>> [1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of that term before:=
>> Interminable and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to f= all
>> into a messy pit made by a rat.
>>

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000de696905b1a3ef6a-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 09:42:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4A93A07F0; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:42:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ta7lwFeFHRXN; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6339D3A07D7; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E7C1C1649BC; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:42:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z99TKPKfB2IQ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:42:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.10] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C845C1649A9; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:42:18 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pete Resnick" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: "Jay Daley" Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:42:17 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5726) Message-ID: <0EE69F2A-6F1B-4F29-94B8-2978BB3E63AD@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 16:42:26 -0000 Replying to Jay's message, but really this is to everyone and applies across WGs: On 13 Oct 2020, at 19:06, Jay Daley wrote: > Dan > > Noting that I have absolutely no authority in this matter, either > directly or indirectly, but that the emerging consensus is that I > should be free to contribute to areas where I have no authority, I > want to state that I think your message below has crossed a line of > tolerable behaviour, even with a generous interpretation of "robust > discourse". Jay, there's nothing in your reply that I can really disagree with. However, when this kind of disruptive behavior happens on the list, the best plan of action is to drop a note to the chairs and let them address it. According to RFC 3934, the normal course of action is for the chairs to first talk to the person privately. Often, people do take it to heart and the behavior stops. (I always hope that doing so not only stops the behavior, but generates a public, "Sorry about that; didn't mean to be disruptive." Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.) Only if the behavior then continues do we get to the public warning or eventual suspension. While I appreciate that others publicly calling out bad behavior does show that others disagree with it too, it can lead to arguments on the list that are equally disruptive to getting work done. Please give your chairs a chance to deal with disruptions on the list (in this WG or any other). I understand that it sometimes takes a bit of time for the chairs to get together to address these things (Francesca and I are in different time zones, so it took more than half a day for us to get our message together and sent out), but dealing with these things is (part of) why your chairs are here. Of course, if your chairs don't respond appropriately, there are other avenues (bringing it to the AD, bringing it to the Ombudsteam if the behavior is a bit more interpersonal) and you should feel free to use them. Doing so also gives the chairs a learning opportunity so they can address these things better in the future. But direct (and public) confrontations by other participants rarely lead to better behavior and work moving forward. Again, I understand the good intentions of sending this sort of note, but in the long run I think having chairs deal with these sorts of incidents leads to better outcomes. Thanks. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Wed Oct 14 11:24:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB263A0FB9 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:24:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h8KTBZ-Xx9ig; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 499DA3A0C4F; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:24:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C7259E0C-1222-4A75-BFF0-F2D625F86268" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 07:24:47 +1300 In-Reply-To: <0EE69F2A-6F1B-4F29-94B8-2978BB3E63AD@episteme.net> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Pete Resnick References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> <0EE69F2A-6F1B-4F29-94B8-2978BB3E63AD@episteme.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 18:24:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C7259E0C-1222-4A75-BFF0-F2D625F86268 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Pete Thank you for explaining that and please accept my apologies for not = leaving this to you and Francesca to address. Jay > On 15/10/2020, at 5:42 AM, Pete Resnick wrote: >=20 > Replying to Jay's message, but really this is to everyone and applies = across WGs: >=20 > On 13 Oct 2020, at 19:06, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >> Dan >>=20 >> Noting that I have absolutely no authority in this matter, either = directly or indirectly, but that the emerging consensus is that I should = be free to contribute to areas where I have no authority, I want to = state that I think your message below has crossed a line of tolerable = behaviour, even with a generous interpretation of "robust discourse". >=20 > Jay, there's nothing in your reply that I can really disagree with. = However, when this kind of disruptive behavior happens on the list, the = best plan of action is to drop a note to the chairs and let them address = it. According to RFC 3934, the normal course of action is for the chairs = to first talk to the person privately. Often, people do take it to heart = and the behavior stops. (I always hope that doing so not only stops the = behavior, but generates a public, "Sorry about that; didn't mean to be = disruptive." Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.) Only if the = behavior then continues do we get to the public warning or eventual = suspension. While I appreciate that others publicly calling out bad = behavior does show that others disagree with it too, it can lead to = arguments on the list that are equally disruptive to getting work done. >=20 > Please give your chairs a chance to deal with disruptions on the list = (in this WG or any other). I understand that it sometimes takes a bit of = time for the chairs to get together to address these things (Francesca = and I are in different time zones, so it took more than half a day for = us to get our message together and sent out), but dealing with these = things is (part of) why your chairs are here. Of course, if your chairs = don't respond appropriately, there are other avenues (bringing it to the = AD, bringing it to the Ombudsteam if the behavior is a bit more = interpersonal) and you should feel free to use them. Doing so also gives = the chairs a learning opportunity so they can address these things = better in the future. But direct (and public) confrontations by other = participants rarely lead to better behavior and work moving forward. >=20 > Again, I understand the good intentions of sending this sort of note, = but in the long run I think having chairs deal with these sorts of = incidents leads to better outcomes. >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > pr > --=20 > Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ > All connections to the world are tenuous at best >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_C7259E0C-1222-4A75-BFF0-F2D625F86268 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Pete

Thank you for = explaining that and please accept my apologies for not leaving this to = you and Francesca to address.

Jay

On = 15/10/2020, at 5:42 AM, Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net> wrote:

Replying to Jay's message, but really this is to everyone and = applies across WGs:

On 13 Oct 2020, at = 19:06, Jay Daley wrote:

Dan

Noting that I = have absolutely no authority in this matter, either directly or = indirectly, but that the emerging consensus is that I should be free to = contribute to areas where I have no authority, I want to state that I = think your message below has crossed a line of tolerable behaviour, even = with a generous interpretation of "robust discourse".

Jay, there's nothing in your = reply that I can really disagree with. However, when this kind of = disruptive behavior happens on the list, the best plan of action is to = drop a note to the chairs and let them address it. According to RFC = 3934, the normal course of action is for the chairs to first talk to the = person privately. Often, people do take it to heart and the behavior = stops. (I always hope that doing so not only stops the behavior, but = generates a public, "Sorry about that; didn't mean to be disruptive." = Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.) Only if the behavior then = continues do we get to the public warning or eventual suspension. While = I appreciate that others publicly calling out bad behavior does show = that others disagree with it too, it can lead to arguments on the list = that are equally disruptive to getting work done.

Please give your chairs a chance to deal with disruptions on = the list (in this WG or any other). I understand that it sometimes takes = a bit of time for the chairs to get together to address these things = (Francesca and I are in different time zones, so it took more than half = a day for us to get our message together and sent out), but dealing with = these things is (part of) why your chairs are here. Of course, if your = chairs don't respond appropriately, there are other avenues (bringing it = to the AD, bringing it to the Ombudsteam if the behavior is a bit more = interpersonal) and you should feel free to use them. Doing so also gives = the chairs a learning opportunity so they can address these things = better in the future. But direct (and public) confrontations by other = participants rarely lead to better behavior and work moving forward.

Again, I understand the good intentions of = sending this sort of note, but in the long run I think having chairs = deal with these sorts of incidents leads to better outcomes.

Thanks.

pr
--
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections = to the world are tenuous at best

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_C7259E0C-1222-4A75-BFF0-F2D625F86268-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 17:21:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721A93A117C; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:21:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KolAU-5uLvnL; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B47A03A117D; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QI72DKD4VNOC8@wwwlocal.goatley.com>; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 19:21:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QI7006H3VI22Z@trixy.bergandi.net>; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:18:03 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:21:22 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <3333F8FD-E193-4168-8CC5-30F525B3CE16@ericsson.com> To: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" Message-id: <076cbd66-7ade-4106-c828-b8071801bc01@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> <3333F8FD-E193-4168-8CC5-30F525B3CE16@ericsson.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [201013b] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 00:21:27 -0000   Hi Francesca,   Yes, it was disruptive and included too many bombastic adjectives which could be taken personally. I regret hitting send. It would've been better had I just waited for Brian's much more sober response that I could've, as Mary did, given a "+1". For the record, I do agree with Brian's assessment (and your interpretation of consensus for that matter).   regards,   Dan. ---- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius On 10/14/20 9:16 AM, Francesca Palombini wrote: > Dan, > > The chairs discussed your message last night / early this morning. > Even if some of the content is on point and some of your complaints > might be reasonable (e.g. "I tried to work with you but you never > replied to me"), that does not excuse the personalized accusations and > characterizations in the rest of your message. It is disruptive to > getting work done in this group and will not be tolerated. This sort > of thing has already been discussed with you privately. Consider this > your public warning. Your behavior must change or your posting > privileges will be suspended. > > Pete and Francesca > > On 14/10/2020, 01:05, "Gendispatch on behalf of Dan Harkins" wrote: > > > On 10/13/20 2:17 PM, Mallory Knodel wrote: > > Thank you very much Pete and Francesca for being thoughtful and > > patient with this topic. > > > > I take issue with the negative connotation of the widely shared > > sentiment that draft-knodel is controversial. It is indeed > > controversial, because of its substance, and therefore that quality > > shouldn't reflect upon whether or not it is a suitable basis for the > > final phase of this work. In fact, I would argue that the draft > > *aimed* to accurately capture and document the controversy in the > > context of the IETF and so if we feel it is, therefore, controversial, > > then it has done its job good and well. > > I don't think you're characterizing the controversy accurately. It is > not that the topic is > controversial and you have captured that in your document, the > controversy is the way > you describe issues, the fallacious logic, and the baseless accusations > you make in your > document that are controversial. > > > I'd like us to be brave in the face of this controversy not just to > > overcome it, but to properly document it (and for some of us to live > > through it) > > Live through it? I'm sorry, have lives been threatened? I missed > that. What _exactly_ are you > talking about? > > > so that we may grow as a community such that the next controversy > > doesn't tear us apart nearly so easily. > > > > While I want accord, I want more racial equality. And I do not think > > erasure of discord over the issues of racial inequality in the IETF is > > an effective way to achieve the latter. > > I want racial equality too (and a cure for cancer!). But imposing > speech codes and calling people > racist is not the way to go about achieving that. The mere existence of > a racial disparity (from some > idealized "norm") is not evidence of racism, otherwise the NBA is the > most racist organization > in the USA if not the world given it is nearly 75% black when blacks > make up 13% of the population. > > It seems that you're suggesting that publication of your draft, and > the changing of certain > metaphors in RFCs, is an effective way to achieve racial equality in the > IETF. That is magical > thinking. It's unhinged from reality. > > > The path forward if draft-knodel were to be the basis for a WG is > > simply to add to and improve the documentation about why the > > terminology recommendations exist. Some of that comes from academia > > and some of it from other corners of the technical community at this > > moment in time. Niels and I would gladly welcome those improvements. > > I provided comments in email to you and Niels. I gave you comments in > an online IEEE 802 > meeting when you tried (and failed I should note, in spite of > accusations to the contrary > made later) to get your draft's recommendations enacted in IEEE 802. And > I gave you > comments in the gendispatch meeting. You never replied to any of them, > either in email or > in the meetings. You just ignored me. > > Which isn't to say that no changes were made. I complained about how > you called a person > out, by name, as a racist for a comment made on a blog post 15 years > ago. That was most > unprofessional and I'm glad you removed it, but the text you replaced it > with alleged racism > among IETF participants for discussing this matter. You're basically > calling me a racist (since > I was one of the participants who tried to discuss this matter with you) > which is outrageous. > You should be glad I'm not the litigious sort. > > So your words say "we welcome improvements" and your actions say "if > you disagree with > us it means you're a racist." That is not the way to form consensus and > it's not the way > we get things done in the IETF. > > I agree with the chairs' observations: draft-gondwana is the way to go. > > Dan. > > > -Mallory > > > > On 10/13/20 4:17 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > >> Here is a summary of what your chairs have concluded is the result of > >> the two virtual interim meetings we held on the issue of terminology > >> in IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology, > >> draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and > >> draft-moore-exclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a couple > >> of weeks for discussion of these conclusions on the list before we > >> report back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how we > >> think this ought to be dispatched. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> First, we find that there was rough support in both meetings for > >> creating a document containing recommendations on terminology to use > >> in technical work, and that such a document should be Informational > >> status. However, there were concerns about describing motivations in > >> such a document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any significant > >> discussion of motivations ought to be avoided. > >> > >> After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of the > >> first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with a > >> preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was > >> more ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would be > >> better. Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within > >> the meetings was to have a quick-spin WG. > >> > >> There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader > >> discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the > >> terminology, but there were many concerns for how to structure such > >> work in a WG and have it be successful. Several suggestions were made > >> to have the IAB sponsor such work as part of their program on > >> "Diversity, Inclusion, and Growth". The thought was that perhaps a > >> discussion there could generate a path forward for IETF work. > >> > >> We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel has too > >> much controversial discussion to be the basis of a document for the > >> above mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology. There was rough support > >> for recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> We are looking for a two important things in the discussion here on > >> the list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and > >> believe that something was not discussed or that a point was missed > >> by the people at the meeting that would change the conclusions in the > >> above, please speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the > >> outcome of the discussion from the meetings and therefore should have > >> come to a different conclusion, please let us know. Of course, you > >> are also welcome to ask questions about how we came to our summary. > >> However, we don't need to hear "+1" or "I agree with the above" > >> (we'll assume you do if you say nothing) and importantly we do not > >> want to re-litigate discussions that happened during the meeting > >> unless you have new information to contribute. Simply restating > >> arguments isn't going to change the outcome. So please do re-read the > >> minutes of the meetings before posting. > >> > >> Thanks for everyone's participation, > >> > >> Pete and Francesca > >> > >> [1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of that term before: > >> Interminable and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to fall > >> into a messy pit made by a rat. > >> > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > From nobody Thu Oct 15 09:01:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7474E3A08B2 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 09:01:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, 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16:01:10 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: Mallory Knodel , "gendispatch@ietf.org" CC: Pete Resnick Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary Thread-Index: AQHWoZ3vZ10msGo4rUO/cJV0chHlp6mWCUCAgALt1YA= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 16:01:10 +0000 Message-ID: <9335241E-FF63-41ED-A747-BAC05F9693CE@ericsson.com> References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> In-Reply-To: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.40.20081000 authentication-results: cdt.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cdt.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [158.174.219.143] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3e9dc281-d893-4e3f-b3d0-08d8712388b7 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VI1PR0701MB6958: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 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c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Eg0SDprSC3U9b2gdCAVp5G4YhY+lXqjI3fch0H1z1 Sk=; b=j3qoNrXbkLIBdkWvn3qqNqSe8gHMc4IeijKiGL0N3t7TFXc4qkdiWKs1P eiPgbdirMKwZLZsyBxukJ0MoF6q7ifNf2z+dXgDu58tgGZoopA64XwG8DGpgRgxY qFGLvvvf+/x5f9ZvG8fXYPeZt0o1ayM39MH0HiCNW4LwzOphH6nQmxy27RMQez+F ZkC1r2vDvk6xpJsqutQi9UI5krCJsXnnoVOGftTpmZ5n/NHKTuSrzd2/WwURomxl zXpQxWDJVNkf0CExPdJkHi5LR8H+Oy3MecH2XhxZR8wdMfbwNauarkEF5rmNBY0z Qzaui1X1XLgXf20W91Jplm+QAjlzw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrieefgdduuddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.85] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8562E3064674 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:16:23 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> <3333F8FD-E193-4168-8CC5-30F525B3CE16@ericsson.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <20c6d542-800c-6583-4b20-c15b464f3032@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:16:22 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3333F8FD-E193-4168-8CC5-30F525B3CE16@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:16:28 -0000 I respectfully disagree with the chairs' statement.   In general, if a document makes false or misleading statements, lacks support, shows prejudice, etc. it should be considered appropriate to point that out, or at least to state where there is disagreement about those things.   Criticizing a document is not a personal attack, and it is disruptive to try to shut down constructive criticism. Keith Moore On 10/14/20 12:16 PM, Francesca Palombini wrote: > The chairs discussed your message last night / early this morning. > Even if some of the content is on point and some of your complaints > might be reasonable (e.g. "I tried to work with you but you never > replied to me"), that does not excuse the personalized accusations and > characterizations in the rest of your message. It is disruptive to > getting work done in this group and will not be tolerated. This sort > of thing has already been discussed with you privately. Consider this > your public warning. Your behavior must change or your posting > privileges will be suspended. From nobody Thu Oct 15 10:23:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B833A083A for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4FDqKJjUO_7z for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A6DC3A07F0 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43500F49 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:23:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:23:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=k7IRDo pLWakHscWk325XBoYGWO9wCVhaWoYxY0PQzlE=; b=lgcaGUkVRUYo2Q4AWYMbIS WrPTzt1I5i1j1C31yegEYj7xkn2nqFuDLEqDlko4M82JUyjK3X1JA8natNtKSB8b Mk/iRlNzkA/qQcbx23+AKVHlG1qiwElB13NH2Ue4p4YvmKwya01+p+2tzrBd7rIn zjZhrV1DGp4zs+aXK0/eR6ms4OIQ7Ou1fQ04sKzBfepYCAIG6pli2DKMZGtog9er 0/or6uvAJPT5cUxd5YAD27uvfdpJJrmLNYYfui4USXvaJiGlDvsbTQPppvWecxre V2al/oqJrAou01NUKZisu7AecVpsUq+kKAYz/zVPdabRTnTiWNvmECwlgDfbqLsg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrieefgdduudduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveefteduieegtd elvddvtddufeejjeffvdefteejieeulefgtdfggedtffektedunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.85] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 365153280059 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:23:27 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> <0EE69F2A-6F1B-4F29-94B8-2978BB3E63AD@episteme.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <50832940-50d3-e406-67cd-aa377ad8b235@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:23:26 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0EE69F2A-6F1B-4F29-94B8-2978BB3E63AD@episteme.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EE313B5F175E44F5442FA1F4" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:23:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EE313B5F175E44F5442FA1F4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10/14/20 12:42 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > Jay, there's nothing in your reply that I can really disagree with. > However, when this kind of disruptive behavior happens on the list, > the best plan of action is to drop a note to the chairs and let them > address it. I will respectfully disagree with this also, as a broad generalization.   Rules of conduct have to be at least partially enforced by the group and not left entirely to appointed leaders to adjudicate in private. It's like my observation that the US Constitution only works to the extent that American citizens are aware of what it says, which powers each branch of government has, and which it does not.   If one branch exceeds its powers and nobody calls them out on it, or nobody can tell who is right about whether the accusation is true, the Constitution basically has no effect at all.   (We're dangerously close to this point in the US, which may be why this example comes so readily to my mind.) So while I agree that /often/ the best plan is to drop a note to the chairs, I disagree that one should always leave such matters to the chairs to enforce in a vacuum.   There needs to be some transparency, some visibility, into the chairs' actions. Keith --------------EE313B5F175E44F5442FA1F4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 10/14/20 12:42 PM, Pete Resnick wrote:

Jay, there's nothing in your reply that I can really disagree with. However, when this kind of disruptive behavior happens on the list, the best plan of action is to drop a note to the chairs and let them address it.

I will respectfully disagree with this also, as a broad generalization.   Rules of conduct have to be at least partially enforced by the group and not left entirely to appointed leaders to adjudicate in private.  

It's like my observation that the US Constitution only works to the extent that American citizens are aware of what it says, which powers each branch of government has, and which it does not.   If one branch exceeds its powers and nobody calls them out on it, or nobody can tell who is right about whether the accusation is true, the Constitution basically has no effect at all.   (We're dangerously close to this point in the US, which may be why this example comes so readily to my mind.)

So while I agree that often the best plan is to drop a note to the chairs, I disagree that one should always leave such matters to the chairs to enforce in a vacuum.   There needs to be some transparency, some visibility, into the chairs' actions.

Keith


--------------EE313B5F175E44F5442FA1F4-- From nobody Thu Oct 15 13:36:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C654A3A02BC for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:36:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5PALtZYthOvI for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 279B73A017E for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F25C190517; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:36:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FcPLbvaYnrbo; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:36:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.10] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D59AC19050C; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:36:11 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pete Resnick" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:36:10 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5726) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20c6d542-800c-6583-4b20-c15b464f3032@network-heretics.com> References: <0a2b6e3e-648f-ceec-90dd-9fd2487ab6db@cdt.org> <3333F8FD-E193-4168-8CC5-30F525B3CE16@ericsson.com> <20c6d542-800c-6583-4b20-c15b464f3032@network-heretics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_F7EF3D95-81EF-4F5A-8AE4-A16320286B70_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 20:36:21 -0000 --=_MailMate_F7EF3D95-81EF-4F5A-8AE4-A16320286B70_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please do not misconstrue what the chairs said in their note regarding the 3934 public notice. We did not in any way claim that expressing disagreement with points made by a participant or in a document is inappropriate, and in fact we explicitly note in our message that some of the content of the note in question may be on point and some of the complaints may be reasonable. We absolutely are not shutting down constructive criticism. It is only the personalized accusations and characterizations made that were problematic; they are not constructive and are certainly disruptive. So you are simply not disagreeing with the statement that the chairs in fact made. Having said that: While pointing out "false or misleading statements" is absolutely in scope for criticism, commenting that a document "lacks support" (other than expressing that *you* don't support the document) is not useful; the consensus call *is* a duty of the chairs and individuals prematurely trying to make a call of how much support a document has is inappropriate. (Questioning a call after it is made is quite reasonable, but that's aimed at the chairs, not the group.) As for "shows prejudice", while carefully limiting such a claim to criticism of the content is reasonable, it is very easy for such criticism to slip into a personal attack on the motivations of the author, so it must be done with care. pr On 15 Oct 2020, at 12:16, Keith Moore wrote: > I respectfully disagree with the chairs' statement.   In general, if > a document makes false or misleading statements, lacks support, shows > prejudice, etc. it should be considered appropriate to point that out, > or at least to state where there is disagreement about those > things.   Criticizing a document is not a personal attack, and it is > disruptive to try to shut down constructive criticism. > > Keith Moore > > On 10/14/20 12:16 PM, Francesca Palombini wrote: >> The chairs discussed your message last night / early this morning. >> Even if some of the content is on point and some of your complaints >> might be reasonable (e.g. "I tried to work with you but you never >> replied to me"), that does not excuse the personalized accusations >> and >> characterizations in the rest of your message. It is disruptive to >> getting work done in this group and will not be tolerated. This sort >> of thing has already been discussed with you privately. Consider this >> your public warning. Your behavior must change or your posting >> privileges will be suspended. -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best --=_MailMate_F7EF3D95-81EF-4F5A-8AE4-A16320286B70_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please do not misconstrue what the chairs said in their n= ote regarding the 3934 public notice. We did not in any way claim that ex= pressing disagreement with points made by a participant or in a document = is inappropriate, and in fact we explicitly note in our message that some= of the content of the note in question may be on point and some of the c= omplaints may be reasonable. We absolutely are not shutting down construc= tive criticism. It is only the personalized accusations and characterizat= ions made that were problematic; they are not constructive and are certai= nly disruptive. So you are simply not disagreeing with the statement that= the chairs in fact made.

Having said that: While pointing out "false or misleading= statements" is absolutely in scope for criticism, commenting that a docu= ment "lacks support" (other than expressing that you don't suppo= rt the document) is not useful; the consensus call is a duty of = the chairs and individuals prematurely trying to make a call of how much = support a document has is inappropriate. (Questioning a call after it is = made is quite reasonable, but that's aimed at the chairs, not the group.)= As for "shows prejudice", while carefully limiting such a claim to criti= cism of the content is reasonable, it is very easy for such criticism to = slip into a personal attack on the motivations of the author, so it must = be done with care.

pr

On 15 Oct 2020, at 12:16, Keith Moore wrote:

I= respectfully disagree with the chairs' statement.=C2=A0=C2=A0 In general= , if a document makes false or misleading statements, lacks support, show= s prejudice, etc. it should be considered appropriate to point that out, = or at least to state where there is disagreement about those things.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Criticizing a document is not a personal attack, and it is disrupt= ive to try to shut down constructive criticism.

Keith Moore

On 10/14/20 12:16 PM, Francesca Palombini wrote:

The chairs = discussed your message last night / early this morning.
Even if some of the content is on point and some of your complaints
might be reasonable (e.g. "I tried to work with you but you never
replied to me"), that does not excuse the personalized accusations and characterizations in the rest of your message. It is disruptive to
getting work done in this group and will not be tolerated. This sort
of thing has already been discussed with you privately. Consider this
= your public warning. Your behavior must change or your posting
privileges will be suspended.

--
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best

--=_MailMate_F7EF3D95-81EF-4F5A-8AE4-A16320286B70_=-- From nobody Fri Oct 16 06:02:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40CD3A0F22 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 06:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=j7wQC+ZZ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=mfJZw9YT Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g8_-RriyYD4x for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 06:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AFF13A0F1C for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 06:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2069B5C00CE for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:02:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=0JoBBU3 84RdDADtyUAOkhCK5LO5YrugWG31HNgRraEs=; b=j7wQC+ZZukVp+pXyWUTQ7ba FbmYSWVp3bINfwzag95Ozx4ch2VcPIod6kdg7j25uIgH/4fkWpRHeAMsKTOXgELH oGxcC0zeOOIgsHQ4htZ12QTHnASxj1VoO7RbOezEhBmgLSt8FQLvhRy0D2y/siD4 D6UfMUC+sNpGBRagOEFAuc/PhNiHtIGQgSjrLD2TZA0ImrLS++716AJVsGxMypzN oMx6QTQzErrx27KfCdk6agJpXxUazfD27yNVlSSshtI7sxkhEB2ky/nwXMwBHrXn d+voSwP4LnNbT2a8EL/j6L3fe/IwEHknU7zPZEezQT/IfbmmWq7/bNqciaK2FdA= = DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=0JoBBU 384RdDADtyUAOkhCK5LO5YrugWG31HNgRraEs=; b=mfJZw9YTiKh3LPLHLRQ3Se 3E856dzIvXOQV/Ynrf4LvX6gh+hmyEpiSd//E9hg5386g5sdF1rW/s4RoIiYWI8P dFOuOwHAh6O2B35qtI1zI7suPbPog3nuI9tdRR94QeAp0BN9RH6NFyFXEIeWWCiD X+ZNVDBjAInXHTRt0qCc3XQ8aSIzG850MhXSfanXZf6wCRpZqwddoaRgk3xMS9ZL nOLSQIuTkJuMXBW/7S6nV8pOokM1UVIKKzjluwoLE3L7FDsdpbSc9JjPqxMZbXsH vXaQ4jojWtcReQ91he9+GYgbTC+kvkRfWlByFYcpFhtC6r97Qgd7mHtDixN/+2qg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrieehgdeitdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtre erreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhhonhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhgsehf rghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffevfeeigfejve etheehleegteelteevgeeutdfhhefghfdtjefhvdehhfdtkefgnecuffhomhgrihhnpehi vghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpegsrhhonhhgsehfrghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id A601D1800E5; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:02:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-489-gf39678d-fm-20201011.001-gf39678d0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 00:02:22 +1100 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=32c9767a71f9421ca61d9a22c68b27b8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:02:47 -0000 --32c9767a71f9421ca61d9a22c68b27b8 Content-Type: text/plain Oh I'm glad I missed this the other day in my "jetlag" induced stupor (I've been attending CalConnect virtual conference from 2-6am Melbourne time this week), so I didn't get dragged in at the time. I was very disappointed that the key question that I think needs to be answered by the community, and particular by those who favour draft-knodel, didn't have time for proper discussion at the last gendispatch meeting. *Does the IETF have confess to some "sins"?* I believe this is the core issue underlying much of the disagreement. I feel that there's not consensus on whether we have something to apologise for. There's also a sub issue hidden under that, which is this question: *Is the IETF systemically racist?* Systemic racism is a somewhat poorly defined and amorphous term which is at the same time both unfalsifiable and yet gets conflated across to broader racism which is a very strong accusation of awfulness. There is broad agreement that the IETF does not have a racial makeup (or even a nationality makeup) that equally represents the various groups of people on the planet. I do not see consensus that this is due to the IETF systemically denying access to any particular group. I have observed, and I'm sure that many would agree, that the IETF is systemically "people from organisations willing to spend a lot of money on this project". Certainly Fastmail pays for me and a few others to attend IETF meetings in order to work on protocols - and the way I sell that investment to the rest of the company is "defense against future walled gardens". Reading Rich's very excellent public work made this even more clear. Akamai is willing to not only pay for a ton of travel (when that's happening again) and meeting fees, but also pay his salary to do what is basically a full time job supporting the IETF. Alissa clearly has a similar situation going on with Cisco. That's gotta be strongly correlated with a bunch of cultural norms around the types of companies that would make these investments. And if I wanted to get snarky (without hopefully going to the extent that would get me told off) I would point out that despite the fact that many of the companies who invest heavily in the IETF claim to want to improve diversity along the usual suspect axes (among all the ways in which humans differ) - they largely spend their money sending white, college educated, western middle class technocrats along to the IETF. *Iterating my draft* I would hope to produce a document which is positive statements about where we want to be, and how we want to encourage representation in the IETF for all stakeholders in the internet - including the RFC8890 end users - with a diverse representation of life experience. This - as I commented in the last session, does NOT mean that we want more people who went to the same colleges but just happen to have more melanin in their skin, or a different set of chromosomes, or a different haircut. More specifically, we don't want to bring people into the IETF just to grant them equity in terms of representation in the IETF. We want people who are willing to do the work. Ideally people with a sponsor (see above where I singled out Rich - sorry Rich: IETF participation is not cheap, even if we reduce the other costs, time is money[tm]). And we don't need equal numbers of human bodies from each group in order to have them represented - we just need a voice in the room who understands their needs and challenges so that we don't forget about them when assessing work. *We want people who share the values which matter to the IETF*: Rough consensus, running code, not breaking the existing structures we have built. There's no room for diversity on these things - encouraging people who disagree on the fundamentals will harm the IETF. Conversely,* we want a diversity of all the things that are not essential* to the operation of the IETF, including political alignments, geographic locations, educational background, credentials... and of course: gender, race, sexuality, etc. That's my dream for a document which could get consensus. If that is not possible, them I'm not your (pale, male and a little bit stale) guy. If that is something that could get consensus, then I'm happy to work with anyone on it. I specifically said in the second meeting that I'd be happy to work with the authors of draft-knodel as well, because you don't get consensus and diversity by excluding people that you don't agree on everything with! Cheers, Bron. On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, at 07:17, Pete Resnick wrote: > Here is a summary of what your chairs have concluded is the result of > the two virtual interim meetings we held on the issue of terminology in > IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology, > draft-gondwana-effective-terminology, and > draft-moore-exclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a couple of > weeks for discussion of these conclusions on the list before we report > back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how we think this > ought to be dispatched. > > -- > > First, we find that there was rough support in both meetings for > creating a document containing recommendations on terminology to use in > technical work, and that such a document should be Informational status. > However, there were concerns about describing motivations in such a > document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any significant discussion > of motivations ought to be avoided. > > After extensive discussion, there were objections by the end of the > first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsored, with a > preference for a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was more > ambivalence as to whether AD-sponsored or quick-spin WG would be better. > Putting this together, we think the rough consensus within the meetings > was to have a quick-spin WG. > > There was rough support in both meetings for recommending a broader > discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the terminology, > but there were many concerns for how to structure such work in a WG and > have it be successful. Several suggestions were made to have the IAB > sponsor such work as part of their program on "Diversity, Inclusion, and > Growth". The thought was that perhaps a discussion there could generate > a path forward for IETF work. > > We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel has too much > controversial discussion to be the basis of a document for the above > mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology. There was rough support for > recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point. > > -- > > We are looking for a two important things in the discussion here on the > list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and believe > that something was not discussed or that a point was missed by the > people at the meeting that would change the conclusions in the above, > please speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the outcome of > the discussion from the meetings and therefore should have come to a > different conclusion, please let us know. Of course, you are also > welcome to ask questions about how we came to our summary. However, we > don't need to hear "+1" or "I agree with the above" (we'll assume you do > if you say nothing) and importantly we do not want to re-litigate > discussions that happened during the meeting unless you have new > information to contribute. Simply restating arguments isn't going to > change the outcome. So please do re-read the minutes of the meetings > before posting. > > Thanks for everyone's participation, > > Pete and Francesca > > [1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of that term before: > Interminable and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to fall > into a messy pit made by a rat. > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --32c9767a71f9421ca61d9a22c68b27b8 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oh I'm glad I missed this the other day in my "jetlag" ind= uced stupor (I've been attending CalConnect virtual conference from 2-6a= m Melbourne time this week), so I didn't get dragged in at the time.
=

I was very disappointed that the key question that I think n= eeds to be answered by the community, and particular by those who favour= draft-knodel, didn't have time for proper discussion at the last gendis= patch meeting.

Does the IETF have confess to some "sin= s"?

I believe this is the core issue underlying much of t= he disagreement.  I feel that there's not consensus on whether we h= ave something to apologise for.

There's also a sub issue = hidden under that, which is this question:

Is the IETF= systemically racist?

Systemic racism is a somewhat poorl= y defined and amorphous term which is at the same time both unfalsifiabl= e and yet gets conflated across to broader racism which is a very strong= accusation of awfulness.
There is broad agreement that t= he IETF does not have a racial makeup (or even a nationality makeup) tha= t equally represents the various groups of people on the planet.  I= do not see consensus that this is due to the IETF systemically denying = access to any particular group.

I have observed, and I'm = sure that many would agree, that the IETF is systemically "people from o= rganisations willing to spend a lot of money on this project".  Cer= tainly Fastmail pays for me and a few others to attend IETF meetings in = order to work on protocols - and the way I sell that investment to the r= est of the company is "defense against future walled gardens".
=

Reading Rich's very excellent public work made this even more clea= r.  Akamai is willing to not only pay for a ton of travel (when tha= t's happening again) and meeting fees, but also pay his salary to do wha= t is basically a full time job supporting the IETF.  Alissa clearly= has a similar situation going on with Cisco.  That's gotta be stro= ngly correlated with a bunch of cultural norms around the types of compa= nies that would make these investments.

And if I wanted t= o get snarky (without hopefully going to the extent that would get me to= ld off) I would point out that despite the fact that many of the compani= es who invest heavily in the IETF claim to want to improve diversity alo= ng the usual suspect axes (among all the ways in which humans differ) - = they largely spend their money sending white, college educated, western = middle class technocrats along to the IETF.  

<= b>Iterating my draft

I would hope to produce a document w= hich is positive statements about where we want to be, and how we want t= o encourage representation in the IETF for all stakeholders in the inter= net - including the RFC8890 end users - with a diverse representation of= life experience.

<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">This - as I commented in the last sessi= on, does NOT mean that we want more people who went to the same colleges= but just happen to have more melanin in their skin, or a different set = of chromosomes, or a different haircut.

More specifically= , we don't want to bring people into the IETF just to grant them equity = in terms of representation in the IETF.  We want people who are wil= ling to do the work.  Ideally people with a sponsor (see above wher= e I singled out Rich - sorry Rich: IETF participation is not cheap, even= if we reduce the other costs, time is money[tm]).  And we don't ne= ed equal numbers of human bodies from each group in order to have them r= epresented - we just need a voice in the room who understands their need= s and challenges so that we don't forget about them when assessing work.=

We want people who share the values which matter to t= he IETF: Rough consensus, running code, not breaking the existing st= ructures we have built.  There's no room for diversity on these thi= ngs - encouraging people who disagree on the fundamentals will harm the = IETF.

Conversely, we want a diversity of all the thin= gs that are not essential to the operation of the IETF, including po= litical alignments, geographic locations, educational background, creden= tials... and of course: gender, race, sexuality, etc.

Tha= t's my dream for a document which could get consensus.  If that is = not possible, them I'm not your (pale, male and a little bit stale) guy.=   If that is something that could get consensus, then I'm happy to = work with anyone on it.  I specifically said in the second meeting = that I'd be happy to work with the authors of draft-knodel as well, beca= use you don't get consensus and diversity by excluding people that you d= on't agree on everything with!

Cheers,

Bron.

On Wed, Oct 14, 202= 0, at 07:17, Pete Resnick wrote:
Here is a summary of w= hat your chairs have concluded is the result of 
the two virtual interim meetings we held on the= issue of terminology in 
IETF technical work generally, and draft-knodel-terminology, 
=
draft-gondwana-effective-termino= logy, and 
draft-moore-e= xclusionary-language specifically. We'll allow a couple of 
weeks for discussion of these conclu= sions on the list before we report 
back to Alissa the group's final recommendation on how we th= ink this 
ought to be di= spatched.

--
<= br>
First, we find that there was= rough support in both meetings for 
creating a document containing recommendations on terminolo= gy to use in 
technical = work, and that such a document should be Informational status. 
=
However, there were concerns abo= ut describing motivations in such a 
document for fear of "ratholing"[1], and so any significant= discussion 
of motivati= ons ought to be avoided.

=
After extensive discussion, ther= e were objections by the end of the 
first meeting to making the output of this work AD-sponsore= d, with a 
preference fo= r a quick-spin-up WG. In the second meeting, there was more 
ambivalence as to whether AD-sponso= red or quick-spin WG would be better. 
Putting this together, we think the rough consensus withi= n the meetings 
was to h= ave a quick-spin WG.

There was rough support in both meet= ings for recommending a broader 
discussion and resulting document on inclusivity beyond the ter= minology, 
but there wer= e many concerns for how to structure such work in a WG and 
have it be successful. Several sugge= stions were made to have the IAB 
sponsor such work as part of their program on "Diversity, Incl= usion, and 
Growth". The= thought was that perhaps a discussion there could generate 
a path forward for IETF work.

We found a clear outcome in both meetings that draft-knodel ha= s too much 
controversia= l discussion to be the basis of a document for the above 
=
mentioned quick-spin WG on terminology= . There was rough support for 
recommending the use of draft-gondwana as a starting point.

--

We are looking for a two important things in= the discussion here on the 
list. First, if you have read the minutes of the meetings and belie= ve 
that something was n= ot discussed or that a point was missed by the 
people at the meeting that would change the conc= lusions in the above, 
p= lease speak up. Second, if you think we misinterpreted the outcome of&nb= sp;
the discussion from the m= eetings and therefore should have come to a 
different conclusion, please let us know. Of course= , you are also 
welcome = to ask questions about how we came to our summary. However, we 
=
don't need to hear "+1" or "I ag= ree with the above" (we'll assume you do 
if you say nothing) and importantly we do not want to = re-litigate 
discussions= that happened during the meeting unless you have new 
information to contribute. Simply restati= ng arguments isn't going to 
change the outcome. So please do re-read the minutes of the meeting= s 
before posting.

Thanks for everyone's participation,

Pete and F= rancesca

[1] In case you haven't seen the IETF use of tha= t term before: 
Intermin= able and often useless or off-topic discussion, as if to fall 
<= /div>
into a messy pit made by a rat.

-- 
Gendis= patch mailing list


--
  Bron Gondwana, C= EO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fast= mailteam.com


--32c9767a71f9421ca61d9a22c68b27b8-- From nobody Fri Oct 16 06:38:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEAB3A0F3D for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 06:38:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GmfsfzvGy7b1 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 06:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9631D3A0A50 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 06:38:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7812; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1602855515; x=1604065115; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=IYbXNRuwqpGdLKn9mAOg4SLhtTQ28uEfAuK0AFwruJQ=; b=eZL0wPRPrClnDwvXDXleXIPdhiRvTrB/W1eu/dEReqmKBKEeUjcc73cF dWN4UJSxFky2DE7ncy5Hv81NxP1WLgxfGn7iLrxOBurmsl/aCbj83dFbV PUA9tqOwQexkOdG7HOFuEVO2E/jhDWGiheYPkyxHD1Nv/6utdtFeox7lL s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CnDgBloYlf/xbLJq1gHQEBAQEJARI?= =?us-ascii?q?BBQUBgg8CgSGCTAEgEiyEPYkFh3ImlAuGHoF8CwEBAQ0BAS8EAQGESgKCCyY?= =?us-ascii?q?6BA0CAwEBCwEBBQEBAQIBBgRthWiFcgEBAQECASNFEQULCxgqAgJXBhMUgxK?= =?us-ascii?q?CXSCtI3aBMoVXhQiBOI1RggCBOAwQghg1PodUM4IsBJAFp3SCdIMWl1kDH5I?= =?us-ascii?q?8jlc6r3yDXgIEBgUCFYFtASCBVzMaCBsVZQGCPj4SGQ2caD8DMDgCBgEJAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?DCY5IAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.77,383,1596499200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="30350604" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 16 Oct 2020 13:38:31 +0000 Received: from [10.61.193.11] ([10.61.193.11]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 09GDcUAj003585 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:38:31 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <37C4EBD5-F9FC-4814-98F5-6926E2D4A66A@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_59A3A581-3F29-4CA7-9DA2-662CC7B71939" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:38:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Bron Gondwana References: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.193.11, [10.61.193.11] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:38:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_59A3A581-3F29-4CA7-9DA2-662CC7B71939 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Bron, > On 16 Oct 2020, at 15:02, Bron Gondwana = wrote: >=20 > Oh I'm glad I missed this the other day in my "jetlag" induced stupor = (I've been attending CalConnect virtual conference from 2-6am Melbourne = time this week), so I didn't get dragged in at the time. >=20 > I was very disappointed that the key question that I think needs to be = answered by the community, and particular by those who favour = draft-knodel, didn't have time for proper discussion at the last = gendispatch meeting. >=20 > Does the IETF have confess to some "sins"? With regard to language, it seems good to recognize that there are = phrases that we should avoid. But I don=E2=80=99t know if that is the = same as a confession, or that we have to beat our backs on one to = address language. >=20 > I believe this is the core issue underlying much of the disagreement. = I feel that there's not consensus on whether we have something to = apologise for. >=20 > There's also a sub issue hidden under that, which is this question: >=20 > Is the IETF systemically racist? Is that the effort or is the effort to correct language? The above = question seems to me a great opportunity to rathole forever. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_59A3A581-3F29-4CA7-9DA2-662CC7B71939 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Bron,


On 16 Oct 2020, at 15:02, Bron Gondwana = <brong@fastmailteam.com> wrote:

Oh I'm glad I = missed this the other day in my "jetlag" induced stupor (I've been = attending CalConnect virtual conference from 2-6am Melbourne time this = week), so I didn't get dragged in at the time.

I was very disappointed that the key question that I = think needs to be answered by the community, and particular by those who = favour draft-knodel, didn't have time for proper discussion at the last = gendispatch meeting.

Does = the IETF have confess to some = "sins"?

With regard to language, it seems good to recognize that = there are phrases that we should avoid.  But I don=E2=80=99t know = if that is the same as a confession, or that we have to beat our backs = on one to address language.


I believe this is the core issue underlying much of = the disagreement.  I feel that there's not consensus on whether we = have something to apologise for.

There's also a sub issue hidden under that, which is = this question:

Is = the IETF systemically racist?


Is that the effort = or is the effort to correct language?  The above question seems to = me a great opportunity to rathole forever.

Eliot




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Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:45:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:45:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Bron Gondwana , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <924470957.25906.1602855940871@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> References: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_25904_904122228.1602855940850" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev10 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] The actual issues (was Re: Meetings summary) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:45:46 -0000 ------=_Part_25904_904122228.1602855940850 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 16/10/2020 15:02 Bron Gondwana ha scritto: > > > Does the IETF have confess to some "sins"? > > I believe this is the core issue underlying much of the disagreement. I feel that there's not consensus on whether we have something to apologise for. > > There's also a sub issue hidden under that, which is this question: > > Is the IETF systemically racist? > One of the problems I have with this entire discussion (and with the way draft-knodel framed it - and I said this to Mallory and Niels already when they brought its first version up in HRPC, over two years ago) is that it focuses only on African-Americans, and only on the use of certain words in standards. Personally, I think that the IETF is not racist. But I think that it is often "exclusionary", in the sense that it actively (culturally) makes participation by certain groups harder or less influential upon the final outcomes. These groups include, in no particular order: - newbies / outsiders - people that work in certain sectors of the industry (e.g. ISPs) - non-technical stakeholders that are affected by the technical direction taken by the Internet, starting with governments - anyone not having English as their mother tongue Then, there are also groups that are underrepresented because of a broader issue in the tech sector, such as participants from developing countries and from ethnic minorities in developed countries (including African-Americans). These would benefit from proactive inclusion and capacity building programs. Moreover, in all these cases, the wording of certain technical concepts in standards is not the primary reason for the disadvantage that these people have in participating - possibly not even one of the top five. I think that this entire discussion would produce much deeper effects in the long term if it started with a broader analysis of what can be a disadvantaging factor for each of many different groups. It's not even a new discussion; ICANN in 2000 was culturally much like the IETF is in 2020 and while I am in no way suggesting that the IETF should become like ICANN is today (actually that would be an utter disaster), perhaps there are lessons to be learnt from what other Internet organizations did to address this category of problems. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_25904_904122228.1602855940850 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 16/10/2020 15:02 Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> ha scritto:


Does the IETF have confess to some "sins"?

I believe this is the core issue underlying much of the disagreement.  I feel that there's not consensus on whether we have something to apologise for.

There's also a sub issue hidden under that, which is this question:

Is the IETF systemically racist?
One of the problems I have with this entire discussion (and with the way draft-knodel framed it - and I said this to Mallory and Niels already when they brought its first version up in HRPC, over two years ago) is that it focuses only on African-Americans, and only on the use of certain words in standards.

Personally, I think that the IETF is not racist. But I think that it is often "exclusionary", in the sense that it actively (culturally) makes participation by certain groups harder or less influential upon the final outcomes. These groups include, in no particular order:
- newbies / outsiders
- people that work in certain sectors of the industry (e.g. ISPs)
- non-technical stakeholders that are affected by the technical direction taken by the Internet, starting with governments
- anyone not having English as their mother tongue

Then, there are also groups that are underrepresented because of a broader issue in the tech sector, such as participants from developing countries and from ethnic minorities in developed countries (including African-Americans). These would benefit from proactive inclusion and capacity building programs.

Moreover, in all these cases, the wording of certain technical concepts in standards is not the primary reason for the disadvantage that these people have in participating - possibly not even one of the top five.

I think that this entire discussion would produce much deeper effects in the long term if it started with a broader analysis of what can be a disadvantaging factor for each of many different groups. It's not even a new discussion; ICANN in 2000 was culturally much like the IETF is in 2020 and while I am in no way suggesting that the IETF should become like ICANN is today (actually that would be an utter disaster), perhaps there are lessons to be learnt from what other Internet organizations did to address this category of problems.

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e5244700-c7f8-48a0-3b13-08d871e06b49 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Oct 2020 14:33:15.8110 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: +MlUMdSVypRPnk0Bk7x/yNpOoxAmia16u9bMkPIew6pB+z07PXFsme4o6fK3RsaiyaL3SfyowiL5VW2w9zUA+DIGVsgNtD4AU29bZW1uHBI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P265MB2717 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:33:21 -0000 T24gMTAvMTMvMjAgMjI6MTcsIE1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIHdyb3RlOiANCg0KPiBXaGlsZSBJIHdh bnQgYWNjb3JkLCBJIHdhbnQgbW9yZSByYWNpYWwgZXF1YWxpdHkuIEFuZCBJIGRvIG5vdCB0aGlu ayBlcmFzdXJlIA0KPiBvZiBkaXNjb3JkIG92ZXIgdGhlIGlzc3VlcyBvZiByYWNpYWwgaW5lcXVh bGl0eSBpbiB0aGUgSUVURiBpcyBhbiBlZmZlY3RpdmUgd2F5IA0KPiB0byBhY2hpZXZlIHRoZSBs YXR0ZXIuDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIGRpdmVyc2l0eSB0aGF0IHRoZSBJRVRGIG5lZWRzIGlzIGRp dmVyc2l0eSBvZiB0aG91Z2h0LCBpdCdzIGNlcnRhaW5seSBhIGxvdCBicm9hZGVyIHRoYW4gcmFj aWFsIGVxdWFsaXR5IC0geW91IGNhbid0IG5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IGRldGVybWluZSByYWNlLCBnZW5k ZXIgZXRjIGZyb20gaW50ZXJhY3Rpb24gb24gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0cywgeW91IGNhbiBkZXRlY3Qg ZGlmZmVyZW5jZXMgb2Ygb3Bpbmlvbi4gIEFuZCBub3R3aXRoc3RhbmRpbmcgdGhhdCwgYWNyb3Nz IHRoZSB0d28gaW50ZXJpbSBzZXNzaW9ucyB0aGVyZSBjZXJ0YWlubHkgYXBwZWFyZWQgdG8gbWUg dG8gYmUgcm91Z2ggc3VwcG9ydCBmb3IgcmVjb21tZW5kaW5nIHRoZSB1c2Ugb2YgZHJhZnQtZ29u ZHdhbmEgYXMgdGhlIGJlc3Qgc3RhcnRpbmcgcG9pbnQuICANCg== From nobody Fri Oct 16 08:43:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A993A0FAC for ; 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Fri, 16 Oct 2020 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.18] (helo=xmail08.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTRtE-0008El-Fa for gendispatch@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 08:43:32 -0700 Received: (qmail 23643 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2020 15:50:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.107]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.139]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail08.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 16 Oct 2020 15:50:47 -0000 To: Bron Gondwana References: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXtavGxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA1ou9A5MHTP9N3jfsWzlDZ+jPnQkusmc7sfLmWVz1Rmu0 J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEw3G4 Nwi4QEpAAXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwMFCQlmAYAFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgEC F4AACgkQELAmqKBYtJQbMwD/ebj/qnSbthC/5kD5DxZ/Ip0CGJw5QBz/+fJp3R8iAlsBAMjK r2tmyWyJz0CUkVG24WaR5EAJDvgwDv8h22U6QVkAuDgEXtavGxIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEHQJoM 6MUAIqpoqdCIiACiEynZf7nlJg2Eu0pXIhbUGONdAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEEw3G4Nwi4QEpA AXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQELAmqKBYtJRm2wD7BzeK5gEXSmBcBf0j BYdSaJcXNzx4yPLbP4GnUMAyl2cBAJzcsR4RkwO4dCRqM9CHpVJCwHtbUDJaa55//E0kp+gH Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 08:43:33 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.5 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.5/32 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.5/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.12) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0ZXzIHSbE2lF8iY6Od2jmSypSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVi5ESHZsgjrsl HCsANYB+RETNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDtLSXJfCfZOnWpXE1/I0nj9Xt FNSzkMWnDricnMrpFJqDMNm5TuDgTWnV8wEBvVl2QVFPFt+4EqMnp4CTDhVg0lKlzDUUdXZXKiJE 9FAeBYpBbCpe79Kozx0nomzoHNuEctpg1HI4dz8j28/Gmqa7mO42Vki7412dpbhrD2d47zbC3VvU djSCswikK/licfX+oIF6uBSWByrPG2Vxuo/vVPllrFEbCkMryfcYCsgMUJObfBQoU3roWy2GH1DY sAiH3gousbgNfxi2R3uFLvZP/HBXvrLBlKCVRjjdPbjQ4HnBNho1Lszw5OO01yYoll8q2UgzFF+j HNSbIoW1Q++Wvj3dKxLhoxcmaInYbR5vlqFg3eKzPG9E5MikC2dVXWcpK172i/E5sOgbaCtBiSIx 1XwCY8vmv+JqOVJamBHfOGVwjn7Xut/lXagsodd5qqODTFiwcpU4fyz75jxpU98RPGiH1Wgh6RAe nBR+licROGb39x3Pp0qQsqDkbqmcZOiQQeTuedWGKCkiycacAVsopusgsGdpZGw1R8SVyG2ctS4r cuyeNztZhTczEttfN8GcdQdstwoCBzan0lY1cJm4XnuXCC1A5Cukky0WFo38JXT3Y80OmAux3oN1 3+ztUzneZ9/v8sMcz3XFgbe5z9pgL07JPy9twDyaj6un7qWOkNfEqrwjxkNMaV67wJBJN70rd3nP H+BvbQJz74K5CedYK2QWWVrR3JV1wNwZBbrvJPnhRlxnmWI1XzgsXIEdLsEB9R/2gMGq0KWAzmMf +ibVDpdplkxcBm4XM6d7s4Bx3w1WbaUe4g0kgaInvdEp64qlVpe//bVkg87Xe61e30HXuSERbInM iTBIUBbQ/Dy6Ip4D1rnEhdYtY/lMQX5s39oH5ijcGdSK77ViXbmzTYWgl82XucjoLWQ7++7jcUS/ T5w= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:43:41 -0000 On 10/16/2020 6:02 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > Systemic racism is a somewhat poorly defined and amorphous term which > is at the same time both unfalsifiable and yet gets conflated across > to broader racism which is a very strong accusation of awfulness You may want to walk that back. You have done a good job of producing a document that sticks to practical issues and avoids unnecessary controversy, but here you are somewhat gratuitously digging into the people using the "systemic racism" language. Believe it or not, but there are definitely issues, at least in the USA, that contribute to "keeping down" a fraction of the population. There is a fair amount of good research about this, for example the documentation of the effects of "redlining" in "The Color of Law" by Richard Bronstein. Downplaying all that as "unfalsifiable" or "an accusation of awfulness" is not going to help bring IETF consensus. Your summary would be much better if you just removed that paragraph altogether, or replaced it with something much more neutral. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Fri Oct 16 10:33:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F43E3A0A22 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WhJ8OGJxEtpj for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 702163A0A1F for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807A35C00D0 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:32:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=lmgJCM 7331Etxu/KLK7116uYaVimO2YK1jZDTGNn6Iw=; b=abhDmX5E+l23DWhtf4nM3e I3aZ33lTHT5Czx+cn4kEjB+ex/0LrCKsVi/o4EZCCtN54E2vxx8glgbaoaKBU7ru sXdsPMIqApoSK0i3Ez88Jlv5ubKNuM2YdWewzdG8klXkVtS3Fr4AU7g7sdDIUPmb OUjxkz5z7MHhqAEo2a4RCtapUii/S6UVl1mGQaVIDDgtSIZ6brs4BRXqgORMamcw tmaQkgIajPHbeg0zwHEiMIJKi5FxgkptPS5zrZ4TP4Jln7DFY4VINE8fRVwAuwEQ 6NLqFfdf2JfLMKsVNFnp491o7pC9ZY1u8CnVsBbHDb6XJKrpB2eb/c8dWFujXJXg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrieehgdduudehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefvhffukffffgggtgfgsehtkeertd dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhr khdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeetfeevhedufeelvd eikeefjedtvdehhfejhfdtheehfedvtdelgeeugfefuedtueenucfkphepuddtkedrvddv uddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.85] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CB4A2328005A for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:32:54 -0400 (EDT) To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <179f96b8-4989-667d-d2a8-e0e5b3d05f4e@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:32:53 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] on the response of gendispatch chairs to Dan Harkins email X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 17:32:58 -0000 Ok, I read Dan Harkins email of 13 October once again and in less haste than last time. His email could be worded better, to seem more like criticism of the document and less like personal criticism.   But I do not find it inappropriate.  Rather, I find the chairs' actions concerning for multiple reasons. Most of Dan's email could be interpreted, and I believe should be interpreted, as criticism of the draft-knodel document.   Where Dan's email borders on personal criticism, I don't find it inappropriate given the history and context of this discussion. Yes, Dan's email could be accused of straying into ridicule ("I'm sorry, have lives been threatened?") and even insult ("This is magical thinking.  It's unhinged from reality.")   But his criticism is still about the document and the logic that really does appear to be behind it.   Slight differences in wording in Dan's email might have created a bit more light and a bit less heat, but in my judgment probably not by much.  And there's absolutely nothing wrong with his questioning the reasoning behind draft-knodel.  And this discussion is in the context of a document that was originally arguably insulting to IETF participants and in violation of its conduct guidelines.  On balance, I don't think Dan's response was anywhere nearly as far out-of-line as the original document, and I don't see why Dan's email should be subjected to pushback when draft-knodel seems to have been actively encouraged by the WG chairs and/or IETF leadership. ---- I think WG chairs now find themselves in a conflicting position whenever there's enough heat around a discussion to cause tempers to flare.  Fundamentally the chairs should be there to ensure fairness - that all well-informed views are able to be presented, that the process is followed, that any declared consensus (or lack thereof) is visible and therefore uncontroversial.  But chairs are also expected to push back on abusive input from participants. Done properly, this serves the same purpose of making sure that all well-informed views can be presented. But visibility is essential.   When the chairs take it upon themselves to privately push back on participants who in the chairs' judgment have spoken inappropriately, this creates multiple problems.   One is that this can (and in the past has been) a way for chairs to put their thumbs on the scale, to bias the discussion in a way that discourages a participant from contributing their point of view, and more generally have a chilling effect on group discussion.   Particularly with controversial topics, it's easy for chairs (even those who are sincerely dedicated to IETF's principles of consensus and openness), to let their own biases color their judgment about what is or is not appropriate speech. When such pushback is done publicly, there is a chance for other participants to observe the chairs' actions and call them out (or appeal) if they believe the chairs have acted unfairly.   This transparency thus provides some protection to the community against inappropriate biases on the part of chairpersons.   But when the pushback is done privately, it not only unfairly biases against the participants whom the chairs have criticized, it also encourages distrust in the IETF process. Also, if the chairs are sending warnings as required by disciplinary process, in response to a participant's speech, when more serious disciplinary action might result in the future from similar speech, those warnings should be clearly labeled as process messages.   They should include specific references to the supposedly-offending speech and the rules which are allegedly violated by such speech.   It's much better for such warnings to be clear, than for them to be ambiguous.   Such a warning should not appear friendly and informal when it's actually a shot over the participant's head.   Participants need a clear understanding of where the process facilitators believe the boundaries are, both so they can observe them, but also so they can challenge them. I'm not saying that it's never appropriate for chairs to send informal private feedback, but such informal private feedback should not be considered part of a disciplinary process and should probably be used only rarely. And making such feedback public has the effect of "raising the bar" for such feedback, since the chairs don't want to seem petty in public.   And that in turn requires a somewhat greater tolerance for heated speech and controversy on the part of group participants than might otherwise be the case.  This, IMO, is a Good Thing. ---- Back to thumbs on the scale.   The chairs (and IETF management also, I believe) gave draft-knodel an airing despite arguably abusive content in that document.  I don't fault them for that - I'm not a big fan of prior restraint - but I do think it was inappropriate of the chairs to push back on multiple people for criticizing that document even though the criticisms seemed less offensive and less in violation of IETF conduct guidelines than the document itself. So yeah, I think the chairs acted inappropriately, and I hope they see fit to retract their pushback. Keith From nobody Fri Oct 16 13:13:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5253A0AD6 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:13:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5DE7mwha2Onz for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A6A53A0ACD for ; 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WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37C4EBD5-F9FC-4814-98F5-6926E2D4A66A@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 20:13:07 -0000 On 17-Oct-20 02:38, Eliot Lear wrote: > Bron, >=20 >=20 >> On 16 Oct 2020, at 15:02, Bron Gondwana > wrote: >> >> Oh I'm glad I missed this the other day in my "jetlag" induced stupor = (I've been attending CalConnect virtual conference from 2-6am Melbourne t= ime this week), so I didn't get dragged in at the time. >> >> I was very disappointed that the key question that I think needs to be= answered by the community, and particular by those who favour draft-knod= el, didn't have time for proper discussion at the last gendispatch meetin= g. >> >> *Does the IETF have confess to some "sins"?* >=20 > With regard to language, it seems good to recognize that there are phra= ses that we should avoid. =C2=A0But I don=E2=80=99t know if that is the s= ame as a confession, or that we have to beat our backs on one to address = language. >=20 >> >> I believe this is the core issue underlying much of the disagreement.=C2= =A0 I feel that there's not consensus on whether we have something to apo= logise for. >> >> There's also a sub issue hidden under that, which is this question: >> >> *Is the IETF systemically racist?* >=20 >=20 > Is that the effort or is the effort to correct language? =C2=A0The abov= e question seems to me a great opportunity to rathole forever. That's the point. We can knock off the issue of words that are better avo= ided quite quickly. Tackling all the isms (not just racism) is a much har= der issue, and IMNSHO is one that the IETF *cannot* tackle on its own, be= cause we don't control the demographics of the people who participate in = the IETF. I take it as a given that once people participate in the IETF, = our rules and guielines disallow any form of discrimination, so it's hard= to see how writing an RFC can help much anyway. In fact there is already an RFC that makes things pretty clear: > Open process - any interested person can participate in the work, > know what is being decided, and make his or her voice heard on the > issue. =2E.. > The Internet is a global phenomenon. The people interested in its > evolution are from every culture under the sun and from all walks of= > life. The IETF puts its emphasis on technical competence, rough > consensus and individual participation, and needs to be open to > competent input from any source. [RFC3935, BCP95] Yes, of course, there may be prejudiced people among our participants, an= d there is certainly unconscious bias among our participants. We should p= robably have a plan for dealing with this, beyond the anti-harassment pol= icy and ombudsteam, but I don't think that plan necessarily includes an R= FC. Regards Brian =20 From nobody Fri Oct 16 13:51:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3B53A0B06 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:51:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DrhWixyy2V3q for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE6A83A09D5 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id d20so5518269iop.10 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:51:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=to:references:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=Jp6hjBqBJKcS12ykkWhufBeKun1MVQW7P8tSqcHB1K8=; b=Fpkf2idYls0wYtFI7gjDTQ/YKM/SHXmaVXD4Sr5280RLHfMzLqDsu3cFqCLH9CniIA bobCH+FNwb5AbYSOpn/A/vfwsp9ZE3osi9G1Mud/V1FBRcG4B9w8CVGNkuihiZ1lCjJC uj5h2WZYtokQNaeey+jHPjfrahXEddnxhk+bbvLepjguu/FDH8/mzKH4PWMLZiU8Dpnc LzuIlN+2weCtsOEy10zVIXxoFC5SZgBui9L0kvMKOAVodX1bQ2+rTETh4YpvYfX7yzZp RkUgBoDBV37JB82lG/rRzoSVy/vlR45xCuq/iNeKHncBboly8+JS9T4oD3X5UMnsHKia 05iQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:references:from:subject:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=Jp6hjBqBJKcS12ykkWhufBeKun1MVQW7P8tSqcHB1K8=; b=c+87httQWJ7NQXjo8jnWHghvb7BOk5tWgGiG2VsFEh+NkiihZv7qiCHvXkeFf+S3jq pBpWVQqeZCUUJLjwYeYvcb4PFA2VOERPutqkx/5Kh7VVSzmd6onk4SYZM8EVOWJ0NOPM DnmEPLIqO1taV6Mq9A1/jhgkZl/zjEDok5TdL3nCRuWtcbFPtAcm2cRwlSUJvAm3qaAw NTc11Hcrg9BfHcHou2PLRMBr+XarpIjMs057iReOoERkPzZ+4A5ufcJXrOFws6LZqj7M D3FM9ru9jmbSPNcmnGF2BcLrrINlbheQ4e81vj/lc8nwusPZi93usMuDPnJxSZgGrOM4 4eLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ZZVBvyu8mXfPdIpCIsShwTnyKJxn7+zxkq+a6JCU9gbDMXiKX LIUc/p4oUo9701gXPfQ8Cl4a5X9jrt7g4xf1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw3IwytP+4jUP9i+ytGIPDoKqPnefsa9W7hWSTdLqJA2icmTZsf5wX4OUvHMn582h/u7qJbsg== X-Received: by 2002:a02:8606:: with SMTP id e6mr4279650jai.111.1602881505406; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local (c-73-163-188-207.hsd1.dc.comcast.net. [73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with UTF8SMTPSA id n138sm2908788iod.40.2020.10.16.13.51.44 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:51:44 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> <37C4EBD5-F9FC-4814-98F5-6926E2D4A66A@cisco.com> <01b9d36a-1857-d824-5c6f-c1ddf403ff26@gmail.com> From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: <27d69d82-9ea4-8255-dfb7-63966cd244ea@cdt.org> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 16:51:44 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/82.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01b9d36a-1857-d824-5c6f-c1ddf403ff26@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 20:51:48 -0000 This is a top post because it's general observations about the=20 discussion over the last day or so. While I am very appreciative of the current discussion for its calm and=20 considered comportment and, above all, our collective willingness to=20 consider the larger and complex diversity issues in the IETF, that is,=20 again, not what draft-knodel is meant to do. Niels and I set about with what we considered a small task: provide=20 guidance and rationale to authors when thinking carefully about their=20 use of two specific metaphors that are now outmoded in the wider=20 community for explicitly political, not technical, reasons. I would=20 cherish the opportunity to participate in an ad hoc WG to handle this=20 particular question with two clear outputs: a comprehensive list of=20 terms and a rationale, eg a draft/RFC/BCP of some kind. We're getting=20 close to that and I'm grateful for the chairs driving us there. However I didn't think the proposed WG was meant to handle the bigger=20 issue of diversity. That is a much bigger task. It's not even a task;=20 it's an entire, unending process. Should the IETF take that on?=20 Absolutely. It would be a WG or an IAB programme or another kind of=20 group (EDU subteam?) that would produce many drafts, take on many tough=20 questions and be an asset to all of our efforts, from diversifying=20 identity to diversifying thought. Perhaps the ad hoc WG is established to handle this slice. And depending = on its success-- as Francesca says we really need to get community=20 support, if not full and broad consensus-- morph it into something more=20 long term. Like Eliot, I don't want endless ratholing but I am desperate = for the next right step. Thanks everyone, -Mallory On 10/16/20 4:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 17-Oct-20 02:38, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Bron, >> >> >>> On 16 Oct 2020, at 15:02, Bron Gondwana > wrote: >>> >>> Oh I'm glad I missed this the other day in my "jetlag" induced stupor= (I've been attending CalConnect virtual conference from 2-6am Melbourne = time this week), so I didn't get dragged in at the time. >>> >>> I was very disappointed that the key question that I think needs to b= e answered by the community, and particular by those who favour draft-kno= del, didn't have time for proper discussion at the last gendispatch meeti= ng. >>> >>> *Does the IETF have confess to some "sins"?* >> With regard to language, it seems good to recognize that there are phr= ases that we should avoid. =C2=A0But I don=E2=80=99t know if that is the = same as a confession, or that we have to beat our backs on one to address= language. >> >>> I believe this is the core issue underlying much of the disagreement.= =C2=A0 I feel that there's not consensus on whether we have something to = apologise for. >>> >>> There's also a sub issue hidden under that, which is this question: >>> >>> *Is the IETF systemically racist?* >> >> Is that the effort or is the effort to correct language? =C2=A0The abo= ve question seems to me a great opportunity to rathole forever. > That's the point. We can knock off the issue of words that are better a= voided quite quickly. Tackling all the isms (not just racism) is a much h= arder issue, and IMNSHO is one that the IETF *cannot* tackle on its own, = because we don't control the demographics of the people who participate i= n the IETF. I take it as a given that once people participate in the IETF= , our rules and guielines disallow any form of discrimination, so it's ha= rd to see how writing an RFC can help much anyway. > > In fact there is already an RFC that makes things pretty clear: > >> Open process - any interested person can participate in the work, >> know what is being decided, and make his or her voice heard on the= >> issue. > ... >> The Internet is a global phenomenon. The people interested in its= >> evolution are from every culture under the sun and from all walks = of >> life. The IETF puts its emphasis on technical competence, rough >> consensus and individual participation, and needs to be open to >> competent input from any source. > [RFC3935, BCP95] > > Yes, of course, there may be prejudiced people among our participants, = and there is certainly unconscious bias among our participants. We should= probably have a plan for dealing with this, beyond the anti-harassment p= olicy and ombudsteam, but I don't think that plan necessarily includes an= RFC. > > Regards > Brian > > > =20 > > > --=20 Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Fri Oct 16 14:05:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80FDA3A0B02 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bU2K8GQIhVSy for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 961573A0B08 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QIB04R1LBX5M7@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 16:05:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QIB00ACRBRAKU@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:01:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:05:27 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <37C4EBD5-F9FC-4814-98F5-6926E2D4A66A@cisco.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qP2QtNALTcom8d2vylHcuQ)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> <37C4EBD5-F9FC-4814-98F5-6926E2D4A66A@cisco.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [201016] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 21:05:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_qP2QtNALTcom8d2vylHcuQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT   Hello, On 10/16/20 6:38 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Bron, > >> On 16 Oct 2020, at 15:02, Bron Gondwana > > wrote: >> >> Oh I'm glad I missed this the other day in my "jetlag" induced stupor >> (I've been attending CalConnect virtual conference from 2-6am >> Melbourne time this week), so I didn't get dragged in at the time. >> >> I was very disappointed that the key question that I think needs to >> be answered by the community, and particular by those who favour >> draft-knodel, didn't have time for proper discussion at the last >> gendispatch meeting. >> >> *Does the IETF have confess to some "sins"?* > > With regard to language, it seems good to recognize that there are > phrases that we should avoid.  But I don’t know if that is the same as > a confession, or that we have to beat our backs on one to address > language. > >> >> I believe this is the core issue underlying much of the >> disagreement.  I feel that there's not consensus on whether we have >> something to apologise for.   I agree with that. Individually many of us may have things to apologize for but organizationally, no, I don't think so. >> There's also a sub issue hidden under that, which is this question: >> >> *Is the IETF systemically racist?* > > > Is that the effort or is the effort to correct language?  The above > question seems to me a great opportunity to rathole forever.   "correct language" for what reason and to what end? Addressing the short-comings of  the English language are not in the IETF's bailiwick. We should strive to use clear metaphors that can be understood by people from different cultures and who do not have English as a first language. I think there is consensus on that. "Correcting" language in order to address a demographic issue that some people have raised is another matter though.   It's not clear that our use of language is the cause of any demographic issue we may have and it's not clear that "correcting" our language would have any impact whatsoever on the demographic issue.   For instance, replacing a commonly accepted cryptographic term of art like "master key" with something like "main key" will, IMHO, have absolutely no effect on systemic racism or any demographic imbalance in the IETF. Why do it then? Why are we having this exercise?   regards,   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_qP2QtNALTcom8d2vylHcuQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
  Hello,

On 10/16/20 6:38 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Bron,

On 16 Oct 2020, at 15:02, Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> wrote:

Oh I'm glad I missed this the other day in my "jetlag" induced stupor (I've been attending CalConnect virtual conference from 2-6am Melbourne time this week), so I didn't get dragged in at the time.

I was very disappointed that the key question that I think needs to be answered by the community, and particular by those who favour draft-knodel, didn't have time for proper discussion at the last gendispatch meeting.

Does the IETF have confess to some "sins"?

With regard to language, it seems good to recognize that there are phrases that we should avoid.  But I don’t know if that is the same as a confession, or that we have to beat our backs on one to address language.


I believe this is the core issue underlying much of the disagreement.  I feel that there's not consensus on whether we have something to apologise for.

  I agree with that. Individually many of us may have things to apologize for but
organizationally, no, I don't think so.

There's also a sub issue hidden under that, which is this question:

Is the IETF systemically racist?


Is that the effort or is the effort to correct language?  The above question seems to me a great opportunity to rathole forever.

  "correct language" for what reason and to what end? Addressing the
short-comings of  the English language are not in the IETF's bailiwick. We
should strive to use clear metaphors that can be understood by people
from different cultures and who do not have English as a first language.
I think there is consensus on that. "Correcting" language in order to
address a demographic issue that some people have raised is another
matter though.

  It's not clear that our use of language is the cause of any demographic
issue we may have and it's not clear that "correcting" our language would
have any impact whatsoever on the demographic issue.

  For instance, replacing a commonly accepted cryptographic term of art
like "master key" with something like "main key" will, IMHO, have
absolutely no effect on systemic racism or any demographic imbalance
in the IETF. Why do it then? Why are we having this exercise?

  regards,

  Dan.
-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_qP2QtNALTcom8d2vylHcuQ)-- From nobody Fri Oct 16 15:02:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED5E3A0B7B for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:02:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=gbxiLSUT; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=fe1ZOqff Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QSmi_uWb0vbr for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E4BB3A0869 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 62168 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2020 22:02:45 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=f2d5.5f8a1885.k2010; bh=V+f2IqZ8pW619S/acKpt0l/Y46IUG1EdHR+zxMRj850=; b=gbxiLSUTIwYRc3NCeDSx/1HZMUA/r7OlysT+82CnbgVRRLcK9jwafGrqpMw89WZrYMJ8ML9u3m7lgjjTPsVMlgbHCUNzXLXFMz8qyn/lHfQkMN0SlX7iF6XJXdHMCbsWCYmopajOvVXIqCiDktnYUeD+0OmN8qnKmBLnhGgmMwqst6EAwIPhjLiNBLirl5BZ6Zty1C17NG4i2d9jEnaJPF7w2XNBPzWkZuI4rTALg+U4yJ1iR6QgadTbVuTg4UJgDk50JkI2ijl1Izj8XCuNtu9Iduwp59ir2Nhp2cgZjIUZ6LiVNwCXghF7iSN0mI547d5RkMLyKj8ZCaV9LyC/Sw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=f2d5.5f8a1885.k2010; bh=V+f2IqZ8pW619S/acKpt0l/Y46IUG1EdHR+zxMRj850=; b=fe1ZOqff2O+ig+Aej987S3pSO4XDDUMxSP00zPFrJI5jfpUfRTdeVs5kPdXIloxQW8P3RJcfKYOIayMaR6prYZ4+VvrCpYRZKL6iWdehqR0GAsOMhIWkRdY1dpUXNB4fPONKe4ylPJMn2Y7mcf5johOD++LSUNUeWgOmy7M0GiTwuaR78YfPAhk4AYX4mnelomA1feUPHFy62NwyeDaevthDeYzbplPWD17NBvjOVGVmO3ToNW7tc6dYmdqyD5bIn8Q69yyZjE4acw1X0GKvRC8edU8cBusuCtfwwm8Gk6MDclMpBIyvyhqu4mmw9XTqqEDyJ4Mi8bKbreOJrFLn7A== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 16 Oct 2020 22:02:45 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9C5682387FB7; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 18:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: 16 Oct 2020 18:02:44 -0400 Message-Id: <20201016220244.9C5682387FB7@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: mknodel@cdt.org In-Reply-To: <27d69d82-9ea4-8255-dfb7-63966cd244ea@cdt.org> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] what are we doing here, Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 22:02:50 -0000 In article <27d69d82-9ea4-8255-dfb7-63966cd244ea@cdt.org> you write: >While I am very appreciative of the current discussion for its calm and >considered comportment and, above all, our collective willingness to >consider the larger and complex diversity issues in the IETF, that is, >again, not what draft-knodel is meant to do. I think the message here is that yes, we understand that, but the group sets its agenda. I don't see any interest in dealing with racist language without also at least looking at other language issues. >Niels and I set about with what we considered a small task: provide >guidance and rationale to authors when thinking carefully about their >use of two specific metaphors that are now outmoded in the wider >community for explicitly political, not technical, reasons. I found that that the discussion of "blacklist", asserting that it is bad because it uses the word black, and ignoring its history in political and labor repression, severely undermined the argument you say the document tried to make. Many of us remember who Dalton Trumbo was. R's, John From nobody Mon Oct 19 05:27:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47AFC3A0BFF for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 05:27:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=kKtjyrMZ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Q3VT9Oq2 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SzjPHwKRtJhJ for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 05:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 870CB3A0BF7 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 05:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ADE9825; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:27:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:cc:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=cMEV mnjsgP5Km/r9M3Uq5fpBd3l6FuPQ5ge4VkWBH0Y=; b=kKtjyrMZzX3gwhKwTOpR g4H6Xfp2aIJQSg35nm1YJE5PiD4Y1mY9eUOXikg7qRhm9GOj8xXzRXE3GHWiOYME NLzoatx3S8oqHtyAV5F/Dr6SVfU2VnVqD+vnxaydKhhyS0wjWJPsG7HNOWUYPv/G 1IDbFaBok+gAW01OmLCIDkJlpx9wJcL1rseX5LyjgQOt+VtjfDRIF5fwf1RMc6bL J/VohJQFYOIcEOj4mdGNbxmMIlYXk1nSoHdevRXAVTNe+yyZdYrMQZvmIlDPlFLs jMSgdJ+AglmstCBZO2JrQF7JKpxHsOQiTAF2AVSNWm3iabQtPCHr2vgn5Y0qIm2u uQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=cMEVmn jsgP5Km/r9M3Uq5fpBd3l6FuPQ5ge4VkWBH0Y=; b=Q3VT9Oq2z8JTGcHS1y0sTW to2KkHE4A27wkePcry17QEiQdOx7fGvHv4k6IQ9mbMdSwIjnCoeMSYL5AyTOG1f7 Kii6ysbEGJx91WaxMeltqYSUFGG7sMDj0HDt527tMNBUcB7HQyBuJ/3obRWnSSyV VHwfNNKd/LHtUcUkMBD/WnY/hRelhGondrSckNiJXeKulIVx/lotkVHjf+aMvzy9 aJ+p5nLBV7jEhYFaMnvvbl3/qbqP7WFqVFrwoG16q20MIivnqP7Jnng9CmY5i+4U mhCUWR/w343iKEma1DLO5F4kB6ZKKuDjEnj0Rvmx4rTcpa1b2hiu51gzztpW8elA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrjedugdehfecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsegrtderreerredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfuehrohhn ucfiohhnugifrghnrgdfuceosghrohhnghesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlthgvrghmrdgtohhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeffveefiefgjeevteehheelgeetleetveeguedthfehgffh tdejhfdvhefhtdekgfenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghrohhnghesfhgrshhtmhgr ihhlthgvrghmrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id C654A180160; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:26:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-502-gfef6c88-fm-20201019.001-gfef6c888 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3570e27f-74bc-4ff6-98f2-20dea534f6af@dogfood.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:26:33 +1100 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: "Christian Huitema" Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=78e1156bd63947508bcbbb75ac485e59 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:27:03 -0000 --78e1156bd63947508bcbbb75ac485e59 Content-Type: text/plain On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, at 02:43, Christian Huitema wrote: > > On 10/16/2020 6:02 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > > Systemic racism is a somewhat poorly defined and amorphous term which > > is at the same time both unfalsifiable and yet gets conflated across > > to broader racism which is a very strong accusation of awfulness > > > You may want to walk that back. You have done a good job of producing a > document that sticks to practical issues and avoids unnecessary > controversy, but here you are somewhat gratuitously digging into the > people using the "systemic racism" language. Believe it or not, but > there are definitely issues, at least in the USA, that contribute to > "keeping down" a fraction of the population. There is a fair amount of > good research about this, for example the documentation of the effects > of "redlining" in "The Color of Law" by Richard Bronstein. Downplaying > all that as "unfalsifiable" or "an accusation of awfulness" is not going > to help bring IETF consensus. Yes, you're right - I phrased that badly, putting in both an important question which I believe is at the key of a lot of the disagreement, and a bunch of off-the-cuff commentary which did nothing to help. Thanks for bringing up redlining and similar laws, which could certainly make the case of there being systemic racism in the past of the USA. It's good to have that as an example. I do think we need to decide, as a community, the answers to some questions though: * * *1) has the IETF ever been systemically racist?** * * * *2) if so, is the IETF systemically racist now?* I ask this largely because this term was used in an earlier discussion to dismiss a question about whether an accusation of racism in the community was out of order: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/bn97uhBVuD5hTvyR4SsUDq-Q5tc/ I think this question is at the heart of a lot of disagreement (along with questions about the effectiveness of any particular policies, the severity of possible side effects, and whether the biggest missing area of diversity in our community is college educated western middle class people who aren't also cis-whiteish-hetroish males). The major objection against my draft is a strong one: it doesn't do anything valuable and doesn't say anything valuable - it's just whish-washy motherhood statements that everyone agrees with. So I'm trying to probe to some extent so see if there's more here or if that's a worthwhile stepping stone towards where the IETF should be going. I'm all in favour of incremental steps, but I'm keen to make sure they're grounded in the IETF's purpose and grounded in agreement about what the IETF is and why it exists and succeeds. Cheers, Bron. -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --78e1156bd63947508bcbbb75ac485e59 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, at 02:43, Christian Huitema wrote:

On 10/16/2020 6:02 AM, B= ron Gondwana wrote:
> Syst= emic racism is a somewhat poorly defined and amorphous term which
> is at the same time both unfal= sifiable and yet gets conflated across
> to broader racism which is a very strong accusation of aw= fulness


You may= want to walk that back. You have done a good job of producing a
document that sticks to practical is= sues and avoids unnecessary
c= ontroversy, but here you are somewhat gratuitously digging into the
<= /div>
people using the "systemic racism= " language. Believe it or not, but
there are definitely issues, at least in the USA, that contribute = to
"keeping down" a fraction = of the population. There is a fair amount of
good research about this, for example the documentation = of the effects
of "redlining"= in "The Color of Law" by Richard Bronstein. Downplaying
all that as "unfalsifiable" or "an accusatio= n of awfulness" is not going
= to help bring IETF consensus.

Yes, you're ri= ght - I phrased that badly, putting in both an important question which = I believe is at the key of a lot of the disagreement, and a bunch of off= -the-cuff commentary which did nothing to help.

Thanks fo= r bringing up redlining and similar laws, which could certainly make the= case of there being systemic racism in the past of the USA.  It's = good to have that as an example.

I do think we need to de= cide, as a community, the answers to some questions though:

1) has the IETF ever been systemically racist?

2) if so, is the IETF systemically racist now?

I ask this largely because this term was used in an ea= rlier discussion to dismiss a question about whether an accusation of ra= cism in the community was out of order:


I think this question is at the heart of a l= ot of disagreement (along with questions about the effectiveness of any = particular policies, the severity of possible side effects, and whether = the biggest missing area of diversity in our community is college educat= ed western middle class people who aren't also cis-whiteish-hetrois= h males).

The major objection against my draft is a stron= g one: it doesn't do anything valuable and doesn't say anything valuable= - it's just whish-washy motherhood statements that everyone agrees with= .  So I'm trying to probe to some extent so see if there's more her= e or if that's a worthwhile stepping stone towards where the IETF should= be going.

I'm all in favour of incremental steps, but I'= m keen to make sure they're grounded in the IETF's purpose and grounded = in agreement about what the IETF is and why it exists and succeeds.
<= /div>

Cheers,

Bron.

--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com
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X-Received: by 2002:a02:8661:: with SMTP id e88mr1160961jai.43.1603133655654; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mallorys-Air.hq.cdt.org ([50.239.129.122]) by smtp.gmail.com with UTF8SMTPSA id t12sm528255ilq.76.2020.10.19.11.54.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:54:15 -0700 (PDT) To: John Levine , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <20201016220244.9C5682387FB7@ary.qy> From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: <6e6b9f7b-e856-cfd8-11a7-fdb8dbadd946@cdt.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 14:54:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:82.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/82.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201016220244.9C5682387FB7@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] what are we doing here, Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:54:26 -0000 On 10/16/20 6:02 PM, John Levine wrote: > In article <27d69d82-9ea4-8255-dfb7-63966cd244ea@cdt.org> you write: >> While I am very appreciative of the current discussion for its calm and >> considered comportment and, above all, our collective willingness to >> consider the larger and complex diversity issues in the IETF, that is, >> again, not what draft-knodel is meant to do. > I think the message here is that yes, we understand that, but the > group sets its agenda. I don't see any interest in dealing with racist > language without also at least looking at other language issues. And we agree then, because I think we should look at other language issues, too. And I think we should look at diversity issues as a whole. I agree so much, that I would support making deep and lasting work out of each of these issues, individually, and not try to cram everything into one draft. That was my only point, -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Mon Oct 19 23:41:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F3F3A1068 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:41:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J3IVs6gykZLf for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF9CD3A1064 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QIH0H364MLVT6@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 01:41:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QIH00I2IMFKSJ@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:38:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:41:53 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <27d69d82-9ea4-8255-dfb7-63966cd244ea@cdt.org> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <0e67b2a4-df1f-56c5-1eac-b10f7c1adf4c@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <76d19c8b-68d3-465f-b869-c18a9db7504f@dogfood.fastmail.com> <37C4EBD5-F9FC-4814-98F5-6926E2D4A66A@cisco.com> <01b9d36a-1857-d824-5c6f-c1ddf403ff26@gmail.com> <27d69d82-9ea4-8255-dfb7-63966cd244ea@cdt.org> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [201019a] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 06:41:57 -0000 On 10/16/20 1:51 PM, Mallory Knodel wrote: [snip] > However I didn't think the proposed WG was meant to handle the bigger > issue of diversity. That is a much bigger task. It's not even a task; > it's an entire, unending process. Should the IETF take that on? > Absolutely. It would be a WG or an IAB programme or another kind of > group (EDU subteam?) that would produce many drafts, take on many > tough questions and be an asset to all of our efforts, from > diversifying identity to diversifying thought.   Yes, that is a much bigger task. The work necessary to effect such diversity would be all-encompassing and never ending (as you note), since any natural process outside of IETF control that re-unequalizes the distribution would require another intervention to correct that result. Maybe that's why you see it as some larger effort-- IAB programme, taking on tough questions, involving itself (as "an asset", natch) in other efforts.   There is a name for such a system of over-arching centralized control and direction of outcome: totalitarianism. A totalitarian system for the diversification of identity and thought... No. Hard no.   Since the plan would be to look into past behavior, language, and thought in a quest for problematics, the old joke comes to mind:   "In Soviet IETF the future is certain, it's the past that's in doubt."   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Thu Oct 22 02:30:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3523A3A03F8; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 02:30:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham 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8D5113A118B; Fri, 23 Oct 2020 14:15:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, alissa@cooperw.in X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.20.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160348775156.5087.13662122349976542277@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 14:15:51 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] gendispatch - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 109 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 21:15:55 -0000 Dear Francesca Palombini, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. gendispatch Session 1 (2:00 requested) Thursday, 19 November 2020, Session I 1200-1400 Room Name: Room 2 size: 502 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/sessions/gendispatch.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: General Area Dispatch Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Francesca Palombini Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: artarea cbor ace core lake quic dprive anima opsawg spring tls wpack webtrans raw secdispatch emailcore Technology Overlap: genarea People who must be present: Pete Resnick Alissa Cooper Francesca Palombini Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Oct 28 08:16:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 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by VI1PR07MB5997.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:d8::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3499.6; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 15:15:57 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB4477.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d9ad:72f6:f14b:40ef]) by VI1PR07MB4477.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d9ad:72f6:f14b:40ef%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3499.018; Wed, 28 Oct 2020 15:15:57 +0000 From: Francesca Palombini To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" CC: "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" , "gendispatch-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Meetings summary Thread-Index: AQHWoZ3vZ10msGo4rUO/cJV0chHlp6mtR/8A Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 15:15:56 +0000 Message-ID: <2948A6C1-B92B-4AE5-9C84-7080A0873B34@ericsson.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.42.20101102 authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; 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smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j15sm3700382pgn.32.2020.10.29.17.41.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Oct 2020 17:41:03 -0700 (PDT) References: <160401761404.24133.4355923694089900378@ietfa.amsl.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Cc: draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis@ietf.org X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <160401761404.24133.4355923694089900378@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <039b0557-74a3-ba6a-40e3-8f7e8e186a64@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 13:40:59 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <160401761404.24133.4355923694089900378@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 00:41:08 -0000 Hi, This draft replaces draft-carpenter-gendispatch-draft-adoption. The 00 version is essentially identical to RFC 7221, as a basis for comparison. The 01 version adds in new material (from draft-carpenter-draft-adoption) but as informative text (not BCP-style text). So the diffs (URL below) show what we are proposing to change. Comments most welcome. Brian + co-authors -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01.txt Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 17:26:54 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Handling and Adoption of Internet-Drafts by IETF Working Groups Authors : Adrian Farrel Dave Crocker Brian E. Carpenter Fernando Gont Michael Richardson Filename : draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-10-29 Abstract: The productive output of an IETF working group is documents, as mandated by the working group's charter. When a working group is ready to develop a particular document, the most common mechanism is for it to "adopt" an existing document as a starting point. The document that a working group adopts and then develops further is based on initial input at varying levels of maturity. An initial working group draft might be a document already in wide use, or it might be a blank sheet, wholly created by the working group, or it might represent any level of maturity in between. This document discusses how a working group typically handles the formal documents that it targets for publication. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Thu Oct 29 18:07:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADCC3A0B16; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:07:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.345 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.345 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xnFrh-idQ36M; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x532.google.com (mail-pg1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BC983A0B02; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x532.google.com with SMTP id r186so3810942pgr.0; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:07:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=65p0SRMGED2oSWNgt1xfmHHikJ2SOe8SXhyAUfysRkk=; b=gXkix6LYglY3WIr4F0VtVgxE4zL1ZFXCV+I+rFJKbh8MXa4dl3gBcMv2duK9EbjcvD DMNbvd6BVWqbCcs+Ux31sRAp6sBd0ZLkHlxSx0lT+gI1qnUPvmkX9IwsBedxIjIkTmYI j6/sK0/iSrIy5rF7csDnk3pzcjRDoR/LY23pLhIRw9NUsmLBgKAJbNAbZewXKSqR1ZMr jgeK2Q3AbJbGHt3HGwFW1JzyANezPVqj61ziUNs6/K5ICFiONFTjLXRx5pSK41L9xhSD qRt/H+arJlDnqkfk2F4sRG6HWCt/sRGiqFUrfB9Q+fibygChqbIVTpgqhy749+2/qTYq iKNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=65p0SRMGED2oSWNgt1xfmHHikJ2SOe8SXhyAUfysRkk=; b=oHJNzCav8C/9r6Bl2J9EhfFumkr7rtWwnDEXWGpVT+He1UhidQvFsvKfsbL53wP4lm wLrJclqUkJXVvzPXYXdZzDjYYBRsVBi+H49NPCEIuVdb7iI3/yCmj98h1dXTNmA6r15B t44Cc6srBOo9bdoA53H43mPETpcsG9SmFZLppFxQKcCsxpN4vGgjqJaZncYPzgzyutwU Mz11mdLq7jLSEyiBxL5LRy7GeHGksJlGYiMjs3ZLmR1SQy2psIsZ89X3rZFePto4Lz4+ T/q5I/S8x+fRuKdudpzHfADZWNlXd6dtZe1I3g6JxSlGG/NzgzYIeVrVfXB7dv8jCVdJ x+3w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5312NVjIazdac5j1GmFxgg3PPXyx99i/tmTVMU7lZVHai1LB2Iob RTVK6ErCNb3EV0HAx30DFw5yb4SYaSU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxs7YrAADSFMVS6ocgKiVWQmLj/pv/7HPEqIDFPWrJtZyZ4HKOCOu+g6SR8FQGGbDQKWkAKiQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:c502:: with SMTP id k2mr1522020pjt.41.1604020054356; Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.130.0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j20sm3755811pgh.15.2020.10.29.18.07.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Oct 2020 18:07:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Francesca Palombini , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4d070b01-9ff3-421d-52df-7d57d000ac59@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 14:07:29 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Call for agenda items Gendispatch IETF 109 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 01:07:37 -0000 Hi, I haven't yet studied the schedule, but I'm sure one of the co-authors wi= ll be available to discuss this: >> (1) pointers to a draft(s) draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01 (about draft adoption by WGs) Especially see the diffs at https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bi= s-01 >> (2) pointers to ongoing/prior discussions Discussion on this list in May/June... e.g. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/KiHUckAeq5MQ5Y0Z-9= SiaHxF6YM/ >> (3) pointers to any other background materials >> (4) desired next steps Is there an AD willing to sponsor this? >> (5) desired time for discussion 10 min. Regards Brian Carpenter On 29-Oct-20 22:51, Francesca Palombini wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > Gendispatch has been scheduled to have an all virtual meeting on Thursd= ay, 19 November 2020, 12:00-14:00 ICT (UTC +7). >=20 > The session will happen over Meetecho, and you will need to register to= IETF to participate. For more information on how to participate: https:/= /ietf.org/how/meetings/109/session-participant-guide/=20 >=20 > We are looking for agenda items for this session. If you would like tim= e on the agenda, send your request to the mailing list. Helpful items to= include in your request (if known/applicable) are: >=20 > (1) pointers to a draft(s) > (2) pointers to ongoing/prior discussions > (3) pointers to any other background materials > (4) desired next steps > (5) desired time for discussion >=20 > If needed, precedence in the meeting will be given to documents that ha= ve demonstrated interest in the form of active drafts and mailing list di= scussion. If you have questions, please reach out to the chairs. >=20 > Thanks, > Francesca >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 23/10/2020, 23:16, ""IETF Secretariat"" w= rote: >=20 > Dear Francesca Palombini, >=20 > The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. > Below is the scheduled session information followed by > the original request.=20 >=20 >=20 > gendispatch Session 1 (2:00 requested) > Thursday, 19 November 2020, Session I 1200-1400 > Room Name: Room 2 size: 502 > --------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/sessions/gendis= patch.ics >=20 > Request Information: >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------- > Working Group Name: General Area Dispatch > Area Name: General Area > Session Requester: Francesca Palombini >=20 >=20 > Number of Sessions: 1 > Length of Session(s): 2 Hours > Number of Attendees: 150 > Conflicts to Avoid:=20 > Chair Conflict: artarea cbor ace core lake quic dprive anima opsaw= g spring tls wpack webtrans raw secdispatch emailcore > Technology Overlap: genarea >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > People who must be present: > Pete Resnick > Alissa Cooper > Francesca Palombini >=20 > Resources Requested: >=20 > Special Requests: >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Oct 30 09:38:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42723A03FC; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:38:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hAKqpYqexz_Y; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta5.iomartmail.com (mta5.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FDC73A03EC; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta5.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 09UGc1HD006082; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 16:38:01 GMT Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90ED32204C; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 16:38:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.248]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 725B622048; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 16:38:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (81-174-211-216.pth-as4.dial.plus.net [81.174.211.216]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 09UGc0Zt020689 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Oct 2020 16:38:00 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , References: <039b0557-74a3-ba6a-40e3-8f7e8e186a64@gmail.com> <958c786e-0d7f-230d-f213-7daf02818e04@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <958c786e-0d7f-230d-f213-7daf02818e04@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 16:37:59 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <08c701d6aedb$07b14fe0$1713efa0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGiRYfN43vQVwvSDncfKDFkhYMhTAOYxi75qfxIOLA= Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 81.174.211.216 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25758.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--17.355-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--17.355-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25758.001 X-TMASE-Result: 10--17.354800-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 8HTFlOrbAtFor4mPA3EMtnFPUrVDm6jtiRPU6vvejXJIXJo+eGm+FHgj VdZjIv+OwY+poHaHe2tcliZU8mzTfbotpw4iUQe/nMQdNQ64xfeN+W0gaFoavUamD+dkC4n9PmW b5UMEjgTzkBlbRTt6FF67JkP1vE5rd98JYrpgriKHov5mQmFcLqUB+KILVUD9FujNgNeS9UCw0F FGdeCd9mNBNfthd7lZvhXF6DgVgcpBcgMMsc1Jl1kxnoxnQfVSwrYQhEVEN5yYBF1C0J2QPm4RZ q5Bvfozd2qJTA1so2dTwt84z3cOmjbEiIqf1l7P9FQh3flUIh4XzWofJu0ojfkuQv9PIVnN6BSs oHGi6wXU3Z85+nuk4qyAquKVIreqGnqsZ8sRr2JCOHkvZleP7Km9/6ObPjnDgOlK2zN496mtu/y ZyQkV0AwwV1wJtrC2kgcVmYkANiDuJxPf+Tp+5LlRS/TbY0kCZAGtCJE23YitdcycjeMJ90rq9G o/uoBcHl54kr1k/IaBlGjitp/rD0lZOTqttGG5E9L0HNvKzVGx2AbjyiiRkMfe+CaE5F2yqyraW LXtXr2dnACYv2gRRiD/oAP6ceYOIj9ezUu2g5WBDL96LgyuMbyJYQldnYebyg26n7adX9cAyJo0 3cXZxAA780CD5KomenYmT4OgJT7H76oc4VKV72lO3nte6oxzOv6sRN4VQ68cI/pZs+xxL9XXTau mdzZnJfT0+HYUOodbYqrl7nxpmyKSpG+tIlC/J0wXS4PN4/9Q5PwW4q+XxnJJhm3A0BYf88PcKq OpBma85r4QqDmAMmpFBVSMFIuPR6TsXnaGMdaeAiCmPx4NwFkMvWAuahr8i2QFaYS1v20qtq5d3 cxkNQwWxr7XDKH8lExlQIQeRG0= X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 16:38:07 -0000 Hi, Thanks Brian for posting this update. I thought it might be worth speaking up as, an original author of 7221, = to say what I think the new contributing authors want to see added = (although, perhaps this is obvious from the diffs). Section 2.1 expands on the brief statements in 1.1 and 1.2 as to what it = means to be an adopted draft. One point that needs clarification, in = this section is, I think where it says " all future substantive changes = to the draft require WG consensus and are no longer at the authors' sole = discretion" and "substantive changes must be referred to the WG and = require WG rough consensus, consistently with [RFC2418]." This is = absolutely true, but it might be taken to imply that the changes need to = be approved with rough consensus before the document is edited. In = practice, the editor may discuss the concepts in advance, but will often = make edits into the document and then discuss them to see whether = consensus can be reached, modifying the text in future revisions as = necessary. (Oh, and s/consistently/consistent/) Section 2.2 adds some clarity on the formality and necessity of a call = for adoption as part of the process. Section 5.2 adds, IMHO, far too much process detail for what is a = relatively rare corner case where a WG abandons a draft it has = previously been adopted. The original text was, perhaps, a little = sparse, but this new text seems a bit much. Whatever, the final bullet = should observe that the document name should change to something that = does not imply WG ownership. The rest of the changes are fairly minor clarifications. But I think an = important point is added (Section 2.4) that WG chairs should consider = "Is the work in conflict with work elsewhere in the IETF?" This is, of = course, not always going to be clear to WG chairs who operate in the = comfort of their own WG, so it might be helpful to note that the = responsible AD should be able to help with this question. Best, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Brian E Carpenter =20 Sent: 30 October 2020 01:09 To: draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis@ietf.org Subject: Fwd: Fwd: I-D Action: = draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01.txt This is a resend. Apparently the alias was not valid when I sent it the = first time. Please direct any reply to gendispatch@ietf.org Brian -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01.txt Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 13:40:59 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland To: gendispatch@ietf.org CC: draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis@ietf.org Hi, This draft replaces draft-carpenter-gendispatch-draft-adoption. The 00 version is essentially identical to RFC 7221, as a basis for = comparison. The 01 version adds in new material (from = draft-carpenter-draft-adoption) but as informative text (not BCP-style = text). So the diffs (URL below) show what we are proposing to change. Comments most welcome. Brian + co-authors -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01.txt Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 17:26:54 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. Title : Handling and Adoption of Internet-Drafts by = IETF Working Groups Authors : Adrian Farrel Dave Crocker Brian E. Carpenter Fernando Gont Michael Richardson Filename : draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-10-29 Abstract: The productive output of an IETF working group is documents, as mandated by the working group's charter. When a working group is ready to develop a particular document, the most common mechanism is for it to "adopt" an existing document as a starting point. The document that a working group adopts and then develops further is based on initial input at varying levels of maturity. An initial working group draft might be a document already in wide use, or it might be a blank sheet, wholly created by the working group, or it might represent any level of maturity in between. This document discusses how a working group typically handles the formal documents that it targets for publication. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bis-01= .html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-carpenter-gendispatch-rfc7221bi= s-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt