From nobody Thu Apr 1 07:00:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5AD3A12E6 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 07:00:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZSYGLYrb9ZuY for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 07:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B1583A12E2 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 07:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAF75C00EE for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 10:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 01 Apr 2021 10:00:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=a/MJO4ClOLfesleavXWOmmBqMlREbI6mDQWX78I+k 08=; b=TMgjwt6wu1TiIJGwPJlrurxpv+EAs7tPVLVtxmlv1F4sRNFPeZzHrm+ri bzO53wFTjzEYih8pJsqmpcwvKXuRZMt98IeaMS7gnhgDAYsZstFy2tnzkbCyhZxM PpIYdgvs6E5mTJVjiBN66hkDatOt3i97iD0/LMkVHhENpICfe0mOrSCpURGD5CvQ ZVSNudw7dlIY1g8lw/qmmL+af6DXlzI+UXB2HWlqj81SHSbutSt4Hwhdrive3s+6 Gf0Z2fqACWnkBUVW1Cda8/2FWrQGeg7wxZjClqDQi2KRmCQEvOwz9gR/Vl2VKGV1 h/f9ya91lEX5aO+WEMQojNgYWO3HQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudeigedgieejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepjeefrddu udefrdduieelrdeiudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.30.202] (c-73-113-169-61.hsd1.tn.comcast.net [73.113.169.61]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2266C240067 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 10:00:12 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <6F4EED60-00BD-42DB-95A9-12FC856D7B9A@episteme.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <1e3a893d-9923-f89a-a481-9c99a3314b46@network-heretics.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 10:00:11 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6F4EED60-00BD-42DB-95A9-12FC856D7B9A@episteme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] REMINDER: Terminology-related discussions to terminology@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 14:00:40 -0000 On 3/31/21 3:15 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > I tried to reply mid-thread, but some people seem to have missed it: > > Please move all discussion regarding the terminology documents or TERM > charter over to the terminology@ietf.org list. Gendispatch has > completed its work on this topic and continued discussion on this list > is inappropriate. Pete, since you're not referring to specific messages here it's hard to tell which messages you mean.   But I would argue that a lot of the recent posts to this list are not about terminology, and at best distantly related to the proposed charter of the proposed TERM WG. That doesn't mean, of course, that such messages were necessarily within scope for gendispatch.  But it's hard to tell what is within scope for gendispatch.   Does a topic for potential new work need to be well-scoped before discussion of that topic can begin here? Given that I believe IETF has a Bad Habit of moving discussions as a means of suppressing input on "uncomfortable" topics, or perhaps to steer such discussion in particular directions that might not reflect community consensus, I'm once again concerned that gendispatch seems to be designed specifically for the purpose of doing this. I'm not sure what the remedy is, but if the chairs have specific guidance on what makes a topic legitimate for discussion on gendispatch, I'd like to know what it is. thanks, Keith From nobody Thu Apr 1 11:11:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EADB3A1DC1 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 11:11:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wkKtVXeH4E-D for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 11:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:9831:5c1e:28c3:1a28] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:9831:5c1e:28c3:1a28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0116C3A1DBF for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2021 11:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Lars Eggert X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 21:11:20 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7B6150E0-0814-4EB1-A1F4-064B0AA6FC2B@ietf.org> References: To: GENDISPATCH List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] draft-les-white-intersectional-dots X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 18:11:33 -0000 The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) prides itself on its open = philosophy, where anyone can submit a proposal or comment on work in = progress, regardless of financial resources, industry credentials, race, = gender, sexual orientation, or national origin, without any review by = the organization. Regrettably, sometimes individuals abuse that openness = by submitting texts that are disrespectful of others, in violation of = the IETF Code of Conduct [1] and anti-harassment policy [2]. On 1 April 2021, there were two examples of anonymous proposals that = were both racist and deeply disrespectful, thus violating policy. The = Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG) has accordingly removed these = documents from the IETF website. Lars Eggert IETF Chair, on behalf of the IESG [1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7154.html [2] = https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/anti-harassment-policy/ From nobody Fri Apr 2 19:21:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9510C3A15BA for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 19:21:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xqm9sG4FrrdY for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 19:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35F103A15BB for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 19:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id f5so1997559ilr.9 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 19:21:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5GZRGQ+9EuoFU2qq4k2t3VKjf2IzWpUD5HaY+C6JCWI=; b=t2pDExX3KJVHmc3pi5lPB3O2BBfvKyHgKYDGeL7WSKti6GbEDanlApUCrHCle5DoU4 aKpkHW4f38Mq5flxJjsxR7YtFq3O6AFQG1CJ0T9xzHElA9qVoC7HB6+1SrZ2kqLlD0rd 6k4RTmhWJdvCI5ANBUdjl2ylG6ogUmd/vbnr4IEytYb9H5UGhuEaT1stCYqqNxpBgPOD pJs7yOrwy6BbEaNDLs0aUkTIJc8FhbuvyFEEdoi4jTAW0VmChU+kmiJBdAJDA5tPGrU1 0CwlOW/cmHHdaAYbWwamP0He550NuTOWFXY74jVbJ2fALlAtMyJ1o4K6+cBfdkU5WMDR Ee5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5GZRGQ+9EuoFU2qq4k2t3VKjf2IzWpUD5HaY+C6JCWI=; b=A0xJb/waIUUx0Ou2v8OnxU4arebtmtqa5Sv/CitqjEjkUdZerj3hsLDcaCAM9pmY9Z OXEB47d3I2oDoq/ynji+awaR1xjpntjk/nrFXs/pzDzOdVsaTyaqUe50oSvGjGpJ3nQl yq7gGoF8WvHevcC70KHLXsBfDsg43QoPaYu5Bri3k2kGYgGFGMgHE7wPIAiIjvdddSrK xs9Qji8uGyy1rgbgXiPsH0N7ZfnOcR3LyWi8hiUHbEoEMk79sHkONMHxGcazXWsZjW41 yKHtSHw6W98uYUYxmP1rEbeWGOw/DWbhf/4aYspeYLSweA8kpO3Ygq7xvP4Midg54cBR 0llQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531/LcXQyCTCAoHhpVAWpcypC3pcRa4AvuwRCNGBx5KD42NMggar V7CKl1WO0zwsmQ9vFXVwnPCsb4EaiyQA5f+hoeqJ9PF5siPygA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyTmMuOnUOXaLWJpRRQ85CKZ7MzAqTudlDgRHWZxkyLG1a6L/jqrr22UXx80/2rAor8bZ9CYkJ+OGAIhnSrdCw= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d68c:: with SMTP id p12mr13551488iln.73.1617416485618; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 19:21:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 19:21:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001449e105bf081fe6" Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 02:21:32 -0000 --0000000000001449e105bf081fe6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposing to shut down ietf@ietf.org . At this point, there are many other lists to discuss general IETF issues (last-call@, arch@, gendispatch@, etc). So, the original catch-all purpose of the IETF list is well-handled in many, if not all, cases. What's left on the general IETF list seems to consist of general societal or language issues that the IETF is not well-suited to address. Additionally, some participants seem to be taking advantage of its large audience and the list's IETF affiliation. Many of the posts seem better suited to blog posts, email newsletters, forum posts, other venues where the readers have opted in to such content. I don't want to spend time on this document if I'm going to get flamed into outer space without getting it published, but I think it's time. thanks, Rob --0000000000001449e105bf081fe6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I've been thinking about wr= iting an I-D proposing=C2=A0to shut down i= etf@ietf.org.

At this point, there are many ot= her lists to discuss general IETF issues (last-call@, arch@, gendispatch@, = etc). So, the=C2=A0original catch-all purpose of the IETF list is well-hand= led in many, if not all, cases.

What's left on= the general IETF list seems to consist of general societal or language iss= ues that the IETF is not well-suited to address. Additionally, some partici= pants seem to be taking advantage of its large audience and the list's = IETF affiliation. Many of the posts seem better suited to blog posts, email= newsletters, forum posts, other venues where the readers have opted in to = such content.

I don't want to spend time on th= is document if I'm going to get flamed into outer space without getting= =C2=A0it published, but I think it's time.

tha= nks,
Rob=C2=A0
--0000000000001449e105bf081fe6-- From nobody Fri Apr 2 20:07:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9083A174A for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:07:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 240bDar0gAdk for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com (mail-pg1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 876E13A1747 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id f10so4580436pgl.9 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 20:07:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pi64/8tRcbKfdY1mM4nf/UZWvAnk5v2TzvpV+iQFsZk=; b=XEGB7IhhFYHNLY3E0N1kWSkhPnGBXlhlsYO783BTK+tFVsfZWQn0T5Y0WCGPo/9xVb s4C9C6dKhaklbskyDQ+smsGAKL8BjklrxAHPcGibwqc7T/TRCO2cMnlLRu1p9mIfcCR0 8Is81P9Ee9cEp/ve++ldAn0syYH3ulKtzwHM67ANIoBHziCwewB+qQN4e2u23P5F2dnz l20egxhtgwsSV94NZMP3PMcWXjmxIayo9nN2Ol+vMA4QmxfRSe1IsREYPQTpAflpGvjf w25e0R0M5btVjREcFHmaHQ81UcFdbi4eSdi7CGKUrYFyym0cFQ0b4fHcrSmkdfRPBKf+ HjAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pi64/8tRcbKfdY1mM4nf/UZWvAnk5v2TzvpV+iQFsZk=; b=RFWgEV5veaHPDa3ZELppbj4USAli6THEL6gOfRBi5rFsaZcDihZqNNFcN4TI4RiVYt LUuYrFMCFpo7Wzo1/di0aJQMEfNP6Yo2HXcM6SY8eD0R6DpjD6RxWU6iJ5/A/J5wCDCo EoU0hLia72l9ejpIuDWkmZ0YRhxPO3R9bVSZGSQWtmr5gVJhuerKno/SmTF6KB4012Hf pZv2tC+dr9BqucPfl8ANlZSv/ncT8gJX9GCZ8VPRrjRj82FVYGqPLkZak8QiCSMV6Rp4 lv+CTv9zh3MKz4Agro1JHOp9Tk12NZB2Jal23jQrFULRbY0qMX7JriGgoWwQyJYpBPCe JxBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531GPDGoFWHrB0wFBWyBN6QZcr7HDxNtvhTmUtRA1CJajjyr/OlD pkAtdqBFjHs2i9SrtMrA5YbJXUvPxBhZOg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx5OXUaDHrm6BwFK7WKcvIcM3Xzycl5sm1K4B4re5x/e0M2o1WWpqyYO064uF+WnPtl8Mhjyg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:43c2:: with SMTP id q185mr13976016pga.41.1617419225833; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 20:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l17sm9274274pgi.66.2021.04.02.20.07.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 02 Apr 2021 20:07:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre , gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 16:07:00 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 03:07:13 -0000 Hi Rob, I hope nobody will flame you even a little bit, but I feel we won't readi= ly find consensus to do this. Whereas I strongly support the concept of d= edicated lists, I really don't see how we can manage without a catch-all.= What we do need to do is to make sure that the regime for the catch-all = list is generally acceptable and generally respected. How about "Make peo= ple *want* to be on the ietf@ list" as a goal? If we did drop the list, I fear that *this* list (gendispatch) would soon= become the catch-all. We've already seen warning signs of that. Regards Brian Carpenter On 03-Apr-21 15:21, Rob Sayre wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposing=C2=A0to shut down iet= f@ietf.org . >=20 > At this point, there are many other lists to discuss general IETF issue= s (last-call@, arch@, gendispatch@, etc). So, the=C2=A0original catch-all= purpose of the IETF list is well-handled in many, if not all, cases. >=20 > What's left on the general IETF list seems to consist of general societ= al or language issues that the IETF is not well-suited to address. Additi= onally, some participants seem to be taking advantage of its large audien= ce and the list's IETF affiliation. Many of the posts seem better suited = to blog posts, email newsletters, forum posts, other venues where the rea= ders have opted in to such content. >=20 > I don't want to spend time on this document if I'm going to get flamed = into outer space without getting=C2=A0it published, but I think it's time= =2E >=20 > thanks, > Rob=C2=A0 >=20 From nobody Fri Apr 2 20:19:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B3F3A17BC for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:19:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.917 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7dpnHqu491SL for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 639423A17B9 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7B6CB1 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 23:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 02 Apr 2021 23:19:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=ILpamV GflVbs3heUsCgG8M5NXV5lKzJ8Q0QUCd1CQl0=; b=f38mYXFROl7qW+piT7okU1 +MfmUD0Ya8e/mFmHSiAsWkQ9iULToEJoYkUpawp31feSlRaZs6rpjpBSCI41EWcQ QqLrZQmJM/o4xD9+V/FXqa2WmB5fb/mkS4m2hbRfaxUhyj8bqUpf3zSKpGusayay fxCXDQ8G2dzYjZeMGBKB7rmzEoQ6jU3H5ddn/MT89soJN6rAq1xknlg4gFDIWgcO h33i7ArxE6+d50V/HNE3xcDg9+aK0VJeIz6+cmMAZKnU8K3rj9Zk9OU1a+VYSL5i R63CjDooh8OQwd9CRyoJsIFMI5egCIhBmzNUuADGHoaM3CnTDe/r8A1OPqL7OufA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudeijedgieekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveefteduieegtd elvddvtddufeejjeffvdefteejieeulefgtdfggedtffektedunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.118] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 88281108005F for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 23:19:31 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 23:19:30 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------20F279F7D6BA601CE7F0C707" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 03:19:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------20F279F7D6BA601CE7F0C707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4/2/21 10:21 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposing to shut down > ietf@ietf.org . Count me as strongly opposed to the idea.   The IETF is too fragmented as it is.   We need to build a greater sense of common purpose and common understanding of the problems that we face, not fragment the community even more. Keith --------------20F279F7D6BA601CE7F0C707 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 4/2/21 10:21 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:

I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposing to shut down ietf@ietf.org.

Count me as strongly opposed to the idea.   The IETF is too fragmented as it is.   We need to build a greater sense of common purpose and common understanding of the problems that we face, not fragment the community even more.

Keith


--------------20F279F7D6BA601CE7F0C707-- From nobody Fri Apr 2 20:19:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2013A17C1 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:19:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B7CIZL_b0eQA for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAF983A17BD for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id h7so5991203ilj.8 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 20:19:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JOLl8H5hxG7gq+riDhqzuBbbNazye08BTLIwxGbr4VI=; b=M0GBNdHoHSIS+wn9ZCNZx9GOiH3/AE9wnJeOWsOVBl4yKdR4U83MM8/8mJ36HmL3KZ dTKwOdVInQGhuxgfTR12xWNXmB9FhaZ0qj6Wmc2J5/chvzl9Ube9e6TsOuIzrWSW+N8U 4HnIpdXSyv+y+CK4mzj0QAwKY5uT6SFs88ETz8xs3q/PE/Umlpr9wWb1TwroD0sktlPJ jFADA5h/EpWM4aNcaicx76Fy5dJC7OW+gb/407sQfMbLFVsS6iwfTZUy2lzKalUR9nNs lrKBy+b47j1wV+m6W1u0tA9Ubwq5XLoMe8uBJdU1jbUW1GNxvWs3Vfar1MP3yscCk5qa ERgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JOLl8H5hxG7gq+riDhqzuBbbNazye08BTLIwxGbr4VI=; b=UCOqA/MQ5XCJr75VDl6RUf109goDmCfUEdg/88ijEOxjnEuwOwDqzLLSypxBDVpep0 V+k814awA0iYTHwlGtsCBhF6JjXw190DdRG9sOWvbJ0LwRV1FH6xVsUCtCFQT7jJvHYS LJiSaq7Qg2G/Q/n2T7m8dpMXwZND2OYJZbOdRRCaGVFTpaDS3ecRJOZH5J6XaDsOLB8Q 98Ndas3DzQx2JDu7WU+vADvzedwdGQ1na6v4jktqF3sGxMX8R/vgP+Fd0jt61yARtGr+ NKpy80z/qBRww1IZqktEwAlTlnBeV8yx8clxgxUhURZW4XtvG6Qde+bhy789YLQLJbL8 /E8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5306EhuNtGwQo3z5VM0PJMKeLNGI8WTR9crrywTeQiBQSPMj3m3L pwMXvIyi5D/ETFV7uSPxRVUWH7jCsxNIqnL3fbk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzPI7GQddjqHr5IFGRoFjd68xRSFhwqIKB+CWVOcsfhN0Qkw1Fp7FmFd0SMTZ5wqVKpq3J3B4yMt9SJrUcT1L8= X-Received: by 2002:a92:da12:: with SMTP id z18mr12938082ilm.189.1617419990661; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 20:19:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:19:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ff000c05bf08ef35" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 03:19:54 -0000 --000000000000ff000c05bf08ef35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 8:07 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I hope nobody will flame you even a little bit, but I feel we won't > readily find consensus to do this. Whereas I strongly support the concept > of dedicated lists, I really don't see how we can manage without a > catch-all. That might have been true when I joined the IETF list in 2005 or so (of course many others have been around longer than that), but I've had it. > What we do need to do is to make sure that the regime for the catch-all > list is generally acceptable and generally respected. How about "Make > people *want* to be on the ietf@ list" as a goal? > I agree with this email: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/sYAyAB4z_V71fYFhJ3Wc1_GoPic/ If we did drop the list, I fear that *this* list (gendispatch) would soon > become the catch-all. We've already seen warning signs of that. > That would be bad, but this list is at least structured such that you have to propose some action, like I am doing. The general IETF list provides a venue to carry on about almost anything. I think the issue is that some are using the name of the IETF, and the valuable engineering work that many participants do, to capture an audience. thanks, Rob --000000000000ff000c05bf08ef35 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 8:07 PM Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Rob,

I hope nobody will flame you even a little bit, but I feel we won't rea= dily find consensus to do this. Whereas I strongly support the concept of d= edicated lists, I really don't see how we can manage without a catch-al= l.

That might have been true when I joined = the IETF list=C2=A0in 2005 or so (of course many others have been around lo= nger than that), but I've had it.
=C2=A0
What we do need to do is to make sure th= at the regime for the catch-all list is generally acceptable and generally = respected. How about "Make people *want* to be on the ietf@ list"= as a goal?


If we did drop the list, I fear that *this* list (gendispatch) would soon b= ecome the catch-all. We've already seen warning signs of that.

That would be bad, but this list is at least st= ructured such that you have to propose some action, like I am doing. The ge= neral IETF list provides a venue to carry on about almost anything.

I think the issue is that some are using the name of the = IETF, and the valuable engineering work that many participants do, to captu= re an audience.

thanks,
Rob
<= /div> --000000000000ff000c05bf08ef35-- From nobody Fri Apr 2 20:27:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86343A1803 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:27:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qONKGpkzPPLh for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F27F3A1802 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6540FCB1 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 23:27:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 02 Apr 2021 23:27:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=9QnuJFPfpQXk6z96BQ7WO+EZ4SSyYW3LeRAV9S/76 C8=; b=o938tIo4lA4QNVnix3vd2MyYLGX+UOribS4Ldw9D+k94PGIM6gkXNxG6D DODP21XoP4118CWcDByD0KO9ArnnKwTGQ0df8wiW5G6P2z8bbs7RghCSLIPMZPVC iSHKo8WYK4mdh2mb1fMyJLTHqmzS15wKUO0y9E51E0mcyPnt0DylVSBst50JEyps XBIwRxJfRzib8pWQwiky1KizFWfkYXuVEZfgxXWsGmGleOuatfs4BWLyuASRn0je mgX1jICpAJJx1jnXVPyooha9VFXnlkNKUyCTDHbzwrvif0SXzjixkdiZtbSIZwZp 6E3GQHKPDV4hcfJiqhmWl59hEJLug== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudeijedgjedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekvdeggfelue elkeeuhfffheeghffhkeeuvdduudeihfehudefffdtgfdtkeffgfenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.118] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AEF5F1080057 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 23:27:23 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 23:27:22 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 03:27:33 -0000 On 4/2/21 11:19 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > I think the issue is that some are using the name of the IETF, and the > valuable engineering work that many participants do, to capture an > audience. I think the issue is that IETF is being destroyed by over-fragmentation. From nobody Fri Apr 2 20:54:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBBB3A18CC for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:54:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q3vJw8PFjcvQ for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B59493A18CB for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 20:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id h25so4657417pgm.3 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 20:54:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E2QUX4c1rq1ModxcEZ42Zuvd2rgggjJtZcd2rOvVZZ0=; b=J0zJBSiaH15lApR+tb0gDjp/u/N7ffSqg3+eLU9UMkg2RpBDP6N09xg4qvGp4iuxxp BUb7K5ncwnjdUsVRzqgJ3SvrW0KADMDaNIYs9yRfidIej5rJvuLxz2KE/RGo4oNYVpEI b7AI6NfYqk793BavwnvbofcuqsN9vsxUR9lk46rbGyLQsb8yjpKaU2Pi09OLY3x6+anp 8U82s7MqM8kwcJnoE27CY6mY1ZCgbw42stnj1GsciZBwndI+Yk8fE1yr3ljowDlLwtqi D94sjp6bCvG73TYuqdvqIYuKE8b3QXhjpXQOWi9Fs8gXW2NwCoTSpTGI7aMtaR0qeVzf Sx6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=E2QUX4c1rq1ModxcEZ42Zuvd2rgggjJtZcd2rOvVZZ0=; b=Vlq7K698xfORQ8kZ6NL9OHkOg6Z2UIvkRo/SM0IcQXndUzxACwph2mq2h++Sqq3hPz 471eBW/iau5h/GgcmOw/VKJoIyH3P3Cpd8Iwe9WIgDT9fBo00TsUVVOTsp0iCYCqoT1+ hK0fO31RYemJhLYAFnJbYeWjDF2eHZsYO/WabLe/LQX9LN2XNnZqBnZfkkX3HslTRBK3 RgTlHe2IvsJ0G0GmgxUYe+i976AFK3+mwnjjmQqSuiFZgXpIRy69CqC9nKmgZgAMfa0w by9eUtezpuhhsc/LR2KnSeiYgZwdhs8f5/EltwzhmtY//vJEp8AoD6Tt1vjxUtUe+34Q XRyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330gH4bbTc4wMAOTW0XaPDI8f/UoJZwDEbze+XKFA8RkOGMefz0 BndqnUDFiOu3cl0h4hXwphXn7zvyriSiiA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzR711GBesBu/HMC+QkEcY/WtJu1jJJxLjTrSnf9948J9RzTn13PykToFOe6vT6M2EIZnM0hQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:92cc:0:b029:1fa:515d:808f with SMTP id o195-20020a6292cc0000b02901fa515d808fmr14404884pfd.43.1617422074288; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 20:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j22sm8910866pjz.3.2021.04.02.20.54.32 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 02 Apr 2021 20:54:33 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <2f635c20-eddf-774b-91ac-3bc0e770cd6b@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 16:54:28 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 03:54:40 -0000 On 03-Apr-21 16:27, Keith Moore wrote: > On 4/2/21 11:19 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > >> I think the issue is that some are using the name of the IETF, and the >> valuable engineering work that many participants do, to capture an >> audience. > > I think the issue is that IETF is being destroyed by over-fragmentation. How about a draft covering pros and cons of having ietf@ietf.org, and describing identifiable & quantifiable problems? Like Mark Nottingham, I recall disconnecting from the list after I stepped down from the IAB, and again after I stepped down from the IESG, for a few months respite. But then I joined again: because how else to know what's going on outside the few WGs I can track in detail? ietf-announce@ and last-call@ are generally too late in the game. architecture-discuss@ and gendispatch@ don't cover everything. The price of being on ietf@ is heavy use of the delete button, but that's a price I can pay. Brian From nobody Fri Apr 2 21:09:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852C53A1940 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 21:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RAWxbNXzLFtg for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 21:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D6453A193E for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 21:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18AA310AC for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 00:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 03 Apr 2021 00:09:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=lh7UEv6LS6m5N70/IB9fb62Z6T/pDkSqGno0NNO3h uE=; b=GTWqi2h07T/eO7w+jxoFWQCcwUlbU/xlym1cQCa/DlQJ6AaIkCAMyqC6G EJN5fkoyK61pPq4bqJY43pmW5iWoB1fjSJE2krLxTLMeZVHdIm8cFZUNw4cmI/R8 VYwUaWUdO78yQFGJhlPAr1snEBOOgzuV3Z2DOZvoo9RiogzaPAHwjNTi7VIejKgJ DIO33EbNIKsrOA0jx7WljxS6g4zZlRGt9EZMukOrgOxteD7ZXHwru+Gicf7dkGdX a2yMcbFbqtBnQL6aLrXeINC03ezFOaduZA3V+v3Ao4Mrq0RO/MbShsh7DUQnN3to oM8JzbIIYu/WyB6fAjJo3qggMAnwQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudeijedgjeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekvdeggfelue elkeeuhfffheeghffhkeeuvdduudeihfehudefffdtgfdtkeffgfenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.118] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1D979108005F for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 00:09:03 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <2f635c20-eddf-774b-91ac-3bc0e770cd6b@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <65a66a8d-c82a-b7e9-c530-a0df45675b82@network-heretics.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 00:09:02 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2f635c20-eddf-774b-91ac-3bc0e770cd6b@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 04:09:11 -0000 On 4/2/21 11:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > How about a draft covering pros and cons of havingietf@ietf.org, and > describing identifiable & quantifiable problems? I'd rather look for ways to improve/fix it than assume that it either has to stay just as it is or die. Which is to say, I recognize that a lot of people don't like it the way it is, and a lot of people have already left. I just believe that shutting it down is the worst of all possible solutions. Keith From nobody Fri Apr 2 22:34:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B710C3A1BEF for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 22:34:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OQFqiB9WsGXy for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 22:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96D543A1BEB for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2021 22:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id j26so1979797iog.13 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 22:34:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Hc03YcwH3OJXYMVV/guJYHbtP5Iwwt+5/+/bccQey3k=; b=JFka87+yMlvUVuTcvlOw7i+E3TdqgiK7jV/9mEhR83Ix7JDiG+aW9JZfuJCqN/OrpX 6gRT+QPpLrCD2tIrClzjvLCvq186QPpEFL+RZowUAKHE6RZLOy1z7XVPJlzQFku17Vu3 Lql4POxliX7AMxZXVoDGmmsD+T7QYC6HY/U1jpHl6zghYzw/2bBGGGfnbQgHduhjXaVz P37WQv3H8bY8avdciRfGzHE5dke0FfRW2WwkYMukmdUAT4aNf5OMB5eDVV8sdW3nQFNP ActG4mxFxNScLLLROiPjDpBa8AepzZjYMzNNvJDt3XaqK7+3qv+fLqJd37rqmTNkhL1Z 8G9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Hc03YcwH3OJXYMVV/guJYHbtP5Iwwt+5/+/bccQey3k=; b=iNtSqwFA4tKiv5hXZ5HeM8oDH34H++VPrXiSqS+qYN9BFpIgvfX8UtzyPvHewXgUaq OjvetVINSYTVjo7MNsFm4VqIaOCOjqq9YcJdOiaxC+oLd3OPZaPvtGggJ3R4vM3J1vNx urkwWHsCgrFbPy2mxVB/I3rCvY8kgFCu5CAF5Jekj7IhZUHVDF1HUZ6w2mBUncP9HMjh /ZXcj5WTi4wKcp6rR+bRbgJ1pOZ+eW8WQadfwjQRZY0Ayx7fNb5Q0W+VJ+buG+fGqW1O tZjwfYaFN/y4ZlnQu8eSNYX/zPCaf89MOaNOjlksm9fUMkFLtcOQcleNUE3MFMGjBYJV CLKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531uv+BV6Br8b0FgbHv7Fbe6/HtjL4AmYkHdAd1itjH0NGvnd8yL aWGPI+9PCd/91GqkKMxWRXJ86HtE1Nv4ESYEFzwUhoKP9mM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwq7IEvm0UySiXw36k5bh+e/uYbP5wmf2x4fWb/NJKqf0IhUa1YK0xd2xAzK7jfO/UpI2wk2dL0LMwzuGOo0CY= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9e03:: with SMTP id h3mr13553950ioh.94.1617428043804; Fri, 02 Apr 2021 22:34:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2f635c20-eddf-774b-91ac-3bc0e770cd6b@gmail.com> <65a66a8d-c82a-b7e9-c530-a0df45675b82@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <65a66a8d-c82a-b7e9-c530-a0df45675b82@network-heretics.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 22:33:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Keith Moore Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000000326305bf0ad0b9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 05:34:11 -0000 --00000000000000326305bf0ad0b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 9:09 PM Keith Moore wrote: > On 4/2/21 11:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > How about a draft covering pros and cons of havingietf@ietf.org, and > > describing identifiable & quantifiable problems? > > I'd rather look for ways to improve/fix it than assume that it either > has to stay just as it is or die. > I think I will write a draft that proposes ending new posts to ietf@ietf.org . There have been very valuable messages on that list in the past, but not lately. thanks, Rob --00000000000000326305bf0ad0b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 9:09 PM Keith Moor= e <moore@network-heretics.= com> wrote:
On 4/2/21 11:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:<= br>
> How about a draft covering pros and cons of havingietf@ietf.org, and
> describing identifiable & quantifiable problems?

I'd rather look for ways to improve/fix it than assume that it either <= br> has to stay just as it is or die.

I thi= nk I will write a draft that proposes ending new posts to ietf@ietf.org.

There have been= very valuable messages on that list in the past, but not lately.

thanks,
Rob
--00000000000000326305bf0ad0b9-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 07:49:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC9B3A0928 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 07:49:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jsgZP-xGKh7w for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 07:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 787093A086B for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 07:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 133El6TO012469; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:48:57 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=s/02rfJ/Ajpl3XyuhSS8NvuMNG7nuVzdkdBbhMgmHiY=; b=ZC9E2WRQUAzHm62MRnGOsfIcKH7xdUYG7gPuLyrRgSU9Fak7PxUWXr6IEDihV1Y3JeYO rnoocasJYEnlnv341s/1gVxbexXaaOjE6vxjnqfl2NklyLaQQephhHQIT0m6kSelVd2Q Z6RpTD9CGtaUUXQWNbIeNWrW1srKoiwqJkZ/QRtE0VQetPybuKFKWMW8cQGdfzPtM7Gc NA4IvTjgHcyPqjAMXkrASNWMPBMWBsw/vq0wwW6Ib/y9jR9A33iw9kk53qEIruNgkiex fNom6Rqv/9v2gBqp+h8Pkx0CWGehhKduI9rBszFOhZpPUfk418E5AxunlCqIGJZ5c6Yr qA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 37pfmry7hh-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 03 Apr 2021 15:48:57 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 133EZ8nR002192; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 07:48:56 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 37ppbbgggt-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 03 Apr 2021 07:48:56 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 10:48:55 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.012; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 10:48:55 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHXKDAT+puxFm5+c0mnHgx6RTeegaqi4JCA Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 14:48:55 +0000 Message-ID: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.47.21031401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1CBE58403CAE4EAA9CF2E0FFDAAAA6FDakamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-03_05:2021-04-01, 2021-04-03 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=885 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2103310000 definitions=main-2104030101 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: BsWaxTG4M804jhVPKLdXFMlOwuZwNoiJ X-Proofpoint-GUID: BsWaxTG4M804jhVPKLdXFMlOwuZwNoiJ X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-03_05:2021-04-01, 2021-04-03 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1011 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=816 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2103310000 definitions=main-2104030102 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.60) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 14:49:04 -0000 --_000_1CBE58403CAE4EAA9CF2E0FFDAAAA6FDakamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCiAgKiAgIEkndmUgYmVlbiB0aGlua2luZyBhYm91dCB3cml0aW5nIGFuIEktRCBwcm9wb3Np bmcgdG8gc2h1dCBkb3duIGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc8bWFpbHRvOmlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc+Lg0KDQpT dHJvbmdseSBvcHBvc2VkLg0KDQpQdWJsaWMgZGlzY291cnNlIGlzIG1lc3N5LiAgSHVtYW5zIG9m dGVuIHN1Y2suICBTdWNoIGlzIHRoZSBwcmljZSB3ZSBoYXZlIHRvIHBheS4gU2h1dHRpbmcgZG93 biB0aGlzIHZlbnVlIHdvdWxkIG9ubHkgZm9yY2UgaXQgc29tZXdoZXJlIGVsc2UsIG9yIHBlcmhh cHMgdW5kZXJncm91bmQuDQoNCg== --_000_1CBE58403CAE4EAA9CF2E0FFDAAAA6FDakamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <0A1CA3DCE29D1547B8D0EAE25428C4DB@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6NSAwIDAgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDAg MDt9DQpAZm9udC1mYWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYW1icmlhIE1hdGgiOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0x OjIgNCA1IDMgNSA0IDYgMyAyIDQ7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpDYWxpYnJp Ow0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIgMTUgNSAyIDIgMiA0IDMgMiA0O30NCi8qIFN0eWxlIERlZmluaXRpb25z ICovDQpwLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgbGkuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBkaXYuTXNvTm9ybWFsDQoJe21hcmdpbjow aW47DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJp Zjt9DQphOmxpbmssIHNwYW4uTXNvSHlwZXJsaW5rDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsN Cgljb2xvcjpibHVlOw0KCXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0KcC5Nc29MaXN0UGFy YWdyYXBoLCBsaS5Nc29MaXN0UGFyYWdyYXBoLCBkaXYuTXNvTGlzdFBhcmFncmFwaA0KCXttc28t c3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6MzQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLXRvcDowaW47DQoJbWFyZ2luLXJpZ2h0OjBpbjsN CgltYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4w cHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFpbFN0eWxl MTgNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtcmVwbHk7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGli cmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7DQoJY29sb3I6d2luZG93dGV4dDt9DQouTXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVsdA0KCXtt c28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpleHBvcnQtb25seTsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O30NCkBwYWdlIFdv cmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtzaXplOjguNWluIDExLjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW46MS4waW4gMS4waW4gMS4w aW4gMS4waW47fQ0KZGl2LldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtwYWdlOldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMTt9DQovKiBM aXN0IERlZmluaXRpb25zICovDQpAbGlzdCBsMA0KCXttc28tbGlzdC1pZDoxNjI4NjU3NzE5Ow0K CW1zby1saXN0LXR5cGU6aHlicmlkOw0KCW1zby1saXN0LXRlbXBsYXRlLWlkczotMjAyNzUzMTI5 NCA2NjEwNDQ4MzYgNjc2OTg2OTEgNjc2OTg2OTMgNjc2OTg2ODkgNjc2OTg2OTEgNjc2OTg2OTMg Njc2OTg2ODkgNjc2OTg2OTEgNjc2OTg2OTM7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWwxDQoJe21zby1sZXZl bC1zdGFydC1hdDo0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2 ZWwtdGV4dDrvg5g7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJl ci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5n ZGluZ3M7DQoJbXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IlRpbWVzIE5ldyBSb21hbiI7DQoJbXNv LWJpZGktZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDINCgl7bXNvLWxldmVs LW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Om87DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRh Yi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5k ZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ291cmllciBOZXciO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVs Mw0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674Kn Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246 bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6V2luZ2RpbmdzO30NCkBs aXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNA0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxl dmVsLXRleHQ674K3Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1i ZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6U3lt Ym9sO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7 DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6bzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2 ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LS4yNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFt aWx5OiJDb3VyaWVyIE5ldyI7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw2DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXIt Zm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgqc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9w Om5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0u MjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw3DQoJe21zby1s ZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgrc7DQoJbXNvLWxl dmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRl eHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpTeW1ib2w7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw4 DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDpvOw0K CW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVm dDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNvdXJpZXIgTmV3Ijt9DQpA bGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDkNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1s ZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CpzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVt YmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LS4yNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5Oldp bmdkaW5nczt9DQpvbA0KCXttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjBpbjt9DQp1bA0KCXttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9t OjBpbjt9DQotLT48L3N0eWxlPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0KPGJvZHkgbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiIGxpbms9ImJs dWUiIHZsaW5rPSJwdXJwbGUiIHN0eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdyYXA6YnJlYWstd29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNs YXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPGRpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48 bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjx1bCBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLXRv cDowaW4iIHR5cGU9ImRpc2MiPg0KPGxpIGNsYXNzPSJNc29MaXN0UGFyYWdyYXBoIiBzdHlsZT0i bWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MGluO21zby1saXN0OmwwIGxldmVsMSBsZm8xIj5JJ3ZlIGJlZW4gdGhpbmtp bmcgYWJvdXQgd3JpdGluZyBhbiBJLUQgcHJvcG9zaW5nJm5ic3A7dG8gc2h1dCBkb3duDQo8YSBo cmVmPSJtYWlsdG86aWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZyI+aWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZzwvYT4uPG86cD48L286cD48 L2xpPjwvdWw+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNw OzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPlN0cm9uZ2x5IG9wcG9zZWQuPG86cD48 L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxw IGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPlB1YmxpYyBkaXNjb3Vyc2UgaXMgbWVzc3kuJm5ic3A7IEh1bWFu cyBvZnRlbiBzdWNrLiZuYnNwOyBTdWNoIGlzIHRoZSBwcmljZSB3ZSBoYXZlIHRvIHBheS4gU2h1 dHRpbmcgZG93biB0aGlzIHZlbnVlIHdvdWxkIG9ubHkgZm9yY2UgaXQgc29tZXdoZXJlIGVsc2Us IG9yIHBlcmhhcHMgdW5kZXJncm91bmQuPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9y bWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9k eT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_1CBE58403CAE4EAA9CF2E0FFDAAAA6FDakamaicom_-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 08:13:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568863A0C01 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 08:13:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tcdud.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6qHogWSYt0gy for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 08:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr50133.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.5.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36BDD3A0BFC for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 08:13:10 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=dikFj9XbvPa/AqJ1TYqD0tD70CRD5Wgz8UdvXD/0EmquX8muls3340Mr7qMqP3i5pXY9dYowm24v92cnl375EBBgS/VM64Y95viNtWgPeddSIDA045NPSI+OcxmCCLVFJF6n6dVKi9ll2h8mEfB8LjT1wdxePxwjDxmKSu/hnxnrzzK0w0gK7W5RA7xJmkuBD4ifuNuV2Mx6J48OCokRy8to7j4NzcJrGSPYU2fIgXVIL52v4pmhucRQnxUWbRPcll/crJZokfs9ZX3o+cPqog0t9kl4rqtQHBuKTJJFVYJfNNpZ2l9iDwtzpH5EP68wbcaVz5jCQ03YGeeFQtt6JA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=gWcJBnnc5BMDj8vIOLXIhsJAV0LlEDTUFSYp+yO83DA=; b=XAX/GSX9+tma+lxjBKDVXGEXocaksYWlF+FlVNgiMi7lVO1Ift1gKUxXPDnpjKcY4PHMJHB0h5bIUWRhkh2kLTXt+GJ0hLlvceuz33MWsvJHw64W9XXWY6aGFJXM+i/gUZ98KcezkKom6cBidMc1TymXmM7T9qVSV7D6y+Y4cZWAxglcZxCYxWPDYr2ynfBP+ha8cHc/RMNElxPvIrV1UbKAjdrcR+lLVH2KqcLo7Ewe0fFw1HyDmcUPjWE1c4oAkji5yhQ+2dbSDlXcECqLunPTRlI0lUB9QW84mlNaMOGmrNL6ycBwHdOJ7QDKvmxKoh0TGLICdimBTjLADAvlCw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=TCDUD.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-TCDUD-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=gWcJBnnc5BMDj8vIOLXIhsJAV0LlEDTUFSYp+yO83DA=; b=mdoVqZuIzugKJrpTSsbaqju+pQQRDp5gC0IfbzeZcMjHDfV5iohxbpBDcRfXvSPk9Z9spOXCM1VrWsjhBAuO0QWKoSmTJefjZp+h05CnDtiB1MWOMrBXILvgyjIgh4X0+Mq26869Btw7qoMVgAusd/gzD7lvLdFEmjnQ9wBnQmg= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB9PR02MB6746.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:215::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.29; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:13:07 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.029; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:13:06 +0000 To: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 16:13:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u79ApCWkkhVwc1Ee6nbNQiMl62Q5j3Qlf" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:b413:84c4:ad0c:ebf7] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR0301CA0048.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:54::16) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:b413:84c4:ad0c:ebf7] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:b413:84c4:ad0c:ebf7) by DB6PR0301CA0048.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:54::16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.28 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:13:06 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: a50c5df4-fa80-4cec-0ea6-08d8f6b2fbe6 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB9PR02MB6746: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:115; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(346002)(376002)(366004)(136003)(39860400002)(396003)(21480400003)(2616005)(44832011)(6486002)(83380400001)(53546011)(8676002)(33964004)(316002)(786003)(186003)(2906002)(16526019)(15843345004)(31686004)(36756003)(235185007)(38100700001)(5660300002)(86362001)(8936002)(52116002)(66556008)(66946007)(31696002)(110136005)(66476007)(66616009)(478600001)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?QmJWYlduUk5keUpOT2VKM0xOcEZOb1pFUGt6Tk5uOHcrWkhFQldhd0o4Wndr?= =?utf-8?B?QnBtdHp4OW5vNkhwY000ZjdiYXU2LzVXdFJPQk8wSHpqRHkzNkRhdCtIaVhL?= =?utf-8?B?aHIvaTVOS2owNEtxcW94YUhReFl1bDJJZmxDdGJ4S3Rqd1hKVnZHUkhaTE1V?= =?utf-8?B?NzlGWGhJdmR4UmpaMks3b0tvV1gvREFHOGQrS1p5bm9IN3N1bEFIaVFHcXV2?= =?utf-8?B?RlAwNnBaODIvekRPWTdoaWdtNUtDSEdMVVRHbmlkVitoaUFLNlhoOCt0bi91?= =?utf-8?B?SjUrVlBObnB0T0ZVVW9SOUc1RkhGVmlNdlZuM01UcG41dHVXMEMxTGxtT1FN?= =?utf-8?B?NGZYOHFxeUhlS0VlV3Y2ZHJRRkVCRXR2U1UzamN0V3NaTFdpNVlRMUp2QUV2?= =?utf-8?B?Mk5KbjcweGQ4bEEvRjR6dTQyTmZDZjROSUZ1YW5oNDgxOEw3YldVNXJ2YlJy?= =?utf-8?B?WVhuSjBJWFRXZ0s1azY2dlFPTE1Rb1E1VjlMZ1lua2J4Sit4RUxjS1ppZ2Zs?= =?utf-8?B?cGw5cWJUYWl2ZnpnLzk0YUhRMlJjZHM2Sjl0V1lZeG1QTVJGZ1ZMQXJjd05N?= =?utf-8?B?VXlNYk8rdlNYWDVwdnRDVDlBZUFhTUQzSGtidk1FSmdVa2tjQUNuSWdKME5N?= =?utf-8?B?a0VtUVNwd3pLTmRjVmZDeHVFZUZoRjBONE5CYU5XRFIyRHRFZEU1S3NYWTNa?= =?utf-8?B?SnY3b2RSVXo5T21iTTBRbDlzUk0rYkE4WXcxRlUxcFRjTUxMOVFIbGxPcG5O?= =?utf-8?B?WldQdzJ2VTgzRFZhazd0clhhWTUxb1VLQzh5Vmo0aC9hVDdWR1ZKSS9rVHRt?= =?utf-8?B?SGdlRUlkVXVtdGxZbXg5alZrdDBMaGxFVWZHeXdyemlHTzhKbVdLWlFnTmlu?= =?utf-8?B?YlRVN0xFZG8rejZ3VUxGeXNUbXlqSUVBcWlCUlA2OTI4QVgwbGFraGdsOTNS?= =?utf-8?B?ZHhoaXZoWFVYRU5oMFJWT0xFeHE1Nmw4cjdrUVF1TWxmMExONzc1KzE2L0dn?= =?utf-8?B?WjZSRy9GS2JSaHVZTVFGWW00L1ZqelllSUgwUFRpTmhvUVloWTJzTStSSGph?= =?utf-8?B?Y2h2bk9FQ1liWVg3blZSWi95ZU45OXg4NjJLeEZXZlB3WWJEbC9qcDh6SjVt?= =?utf-8?B?ckRUN0ZkUXEwNkh4Unc2bWlzZmxJL2J5VUk1aFg0bmNPRnRrK3JPRnA3RE5t?= =?utf-8?B?OWhxeWJ3WVRKSDhVWDl6TTh4MFJ1UFJtOHJHdUMrNk5pK2dpb3J2bXAvS2hs?= =?utf-8?B?V0xncWxvK3V1NnVNWjU3cWhqaTRrWHo1YS9ZRnFHVGEvazM5cGkvVUlvT2tq?= =?utf-8?B?aExBcDZWM3BYakxja1MzL1BmTkRPZmdKQ0tueUQyWHhBYUUwVU9YbzI4Umpy?= =?utf-8?B?N3JOcjZJeDNhY3BLSVNQbG1lUWN5Q3piUThHbmZvcWtsK0R1SHpoWTh1dlJv?= =?utf-8?B?MGlhU2JnQmVnekRTSXNmbUZvL3pPMG52WitIby9vNDNSbm9RY1IyVGk3WG0y?= =?utf-8?B?U2pIRVdteDJVOTNkMGpOU1BqUzkxUzlxTmpTVk1CY01VMm4xUE1ST0IrSGNU?= =?utf-8?B?cXBzZzdoRkh4clRzUzU5TUdleGRtK0s5OFNrNHRheDB1d3ozdEZBT1c5VUVK?= =?utf-8?B?K2xJUU9heDUvRHNKdzdMZEdpZUcxa2JqZmYybTV4R2tKS1kwMHBKeExmOGE5?= =?utf-8?B?VGxVTkErd2UzNXk0UytGTGNDYUlxcFE3QTBXdERoWmxFOHdzdVJNOGxqMHBw?= =?utf-8?B?QUJiN3ZxMm10RVlZdFg5SFYyUm4rNFZYeWhtNlJ3Y0F4MjdUdkdIeTJHMmZV?= =?utf-8?B?N1FoK2hBeWpGVnVsV1E5NEx1RW9lZDBvZm5ZVGNNdC9nN3RXaG52Vy9oZy9W?= =?utf-8?Q?R36EMqKgS9kAJ?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a50c5df4-fa80-4cec-0ea6-08d8f6b2fbe6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2021 15:13:06.6733 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: jzJmtdlqpgXbE/m1xA82+NbxnbO0tAWwBmJlDbiuHdku873Zb0dvWJy1PsbAUjG0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB9PR02MB6746 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 15:13:18 -0000 --u79ApCWkkhVwc1Ee6nbNQiMl62Q5j3Qlf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="06AoS0tA1LpCh0VtdtENvn0XnqL4hxEri"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> --06AoS0tA1LpCh0VtdtENvn0XnqL4hxEri Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FF0F3C5C5F0CC810C579A830" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FF0F3C5C5F0CC810C579A830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya. On 03/04/2021 15:48, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 >=20 > * I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposing to shut down > ietf@ietf.org. >=20 > Strongly opposed. Same here. Closing ietf@ietf.org is an awful idea that I hope is quickly dropped. >=20 > Public discourse is messy. Humans often suck. Such is the price we > have to pay. Shutting down this venue would only force it somewhere > else, or perhaps underground. That, and ietf@ietf.org IMO fulfills many purposes, not all written down - just as one minor example, one can often get a useful impression of a posting from the set of previous postings from the same author - I think such "features" would be very likely missed should that list be closed and we'd end up with all sorts of gaps that'd need filling. A few related thoughts: - I don't find it hard to process ietf@ietf.org mails, and anyone can unsubscribe, and I don't find the content to be "toxic" - it's frequently irritating and often boring but not much more than that. - It's a bit sad that people on all sides of most of the non-technical discussion on that list seem to be notably more absolutist than was the case some years back. A bit more tolerance of the imperfections of ourselves and esp. others might help some. - In contrast to absolutism perhaps increasing, I see no change in our collective willingness to re-state opinions and regurgitate arguments over the years - that seems the same since I started reading IETF mails:-) Cheers, S. --------------FF0F3C5C5F0CC810C579A830 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------FF0F3C5C5F0CC810C579A830-- --06AoS0tA1LpCh0VtdtENvn0XnqL4hxEri-- --u79ApCWkkhVwc1Ee6nbNQiMl62Q5j3Qlf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmBohgAFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+pW HQ/6AtTOsQCX3X6drxh3rTwjxsoO848fyL7dsRF+4vIa/8PrfUSCSxGap0fVCDOFnTDmPjJ7bGuB DpBIZ1SqKtfNklUF3bIeaKgYrbn7x1FIsTlrtr2q7ixzul7MyqkfFBEV17gxFPd28YGAhU70Ovjv o0rACRmE1svU/da78FO60DdlAfSgHASbutqU62rV1dZqqXyWTF+GhnhWBNHw+8wVgcxKBAKgijKO JuRUQ73yPvMrM/LjF7j+Adi0njpe0iPvGQcxBFhAOBvFH3ttY5pph5yB6jNWUpmHcPSnu4rE8lV9 ejmXahkbq3dOZ/MO6+dov610Hs6K/xeYeWWkz9LZIPWEpMxQcFK9iEUC7TyZAIsKu1MTXTa7qjag OCgP11S09nUqNkhksKibGBn108JMQlpqxFAqxt8S++iivoFHy+a52QYajMMaIdXGPDJyRLa+pG7C S6bhqFvMHp3GRuzV4aMlhskAJMVR/7aMaiO7oM9p659hdd3opkwtVyqEAt+8fTJyVWKpx9WHsqWa og8yJJZgepModNaf3BpG20G3tRJVsg8rdYwPrsCwvUhSj1+GaKLgrN3j0OSs9JDhVUeTWmteJAlN c9fpUo4Pae1gwik6imIV+qheo28P+mPSJfbzHu6v82V8t0x1QZp0+88m97jx6YnAcLlzU2CUMgBT N78= =1OM5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --u79ApCWkkhVwc1Ee6nbNQiMl62Q5j3Qlf-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 08:23:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC46B3A0CD3 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 08:23:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tGH5aDgJXY7m for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 08:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb29.google.com (mail-yb1-xb29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F191D3A0CCF for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 08:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb29.google.com with SMTP id j2so7981427ybj.8 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 08:23:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=seiDVXta9TutSmtFBWWB8Jcz03wFe0qOiudTnXIPI+8=; b=hRQL5tSleNYjbZvbTCFs3NK1lNvPBRqfzKh1qc3YnB+4QP/lReDrCPlyZSOQbwEz1p t0TG5XJw5Rxs0yh26vYN9nNpkVJk+Cs8pquTuvuebzTzvUyvZlOfTa59u8FazbmKnqWd dfwcx4NMLU8XJic9rbjHC2ZSGzFdPjXpUiZQE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=seiDVXta9TutSmtFBWWB8Jcz03wFe0qOiudTnXIPI+8=; b=cxgtBYrmrA9Nmm7njj0edfmMIxnfypnmo20iaPRFKuXaAb9nckZvToLA2zgQjw/GVi FDsfJaNVyDtPiQCpUcwsszllqXC+cGGS1zhWNo+ktZ0V+veI13WearuvLLotzZGmw5Sh TUKjUYzWJ1cgfPtnGvpW7D6kJ7dYUER4qaHgUDr6DcDUJxEni1OX6/qmCX+xXpMDOTM+ aAoTvClvTEv87LR7Yi+TxoKs+enbKaX0gXJvl0Zv/bMbKvhMxIgxSrYhVwh1SU27Ot8i S8Y0XEaplwebml7NAF0tMhiiEzCN2v+qifdXOP+igavcfT4mbhH7QXEZN0e1/bHaPDtL 9nWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533/gsP75TTEGIybKgNTql5hFipl7DmPgUMhbe8IBH7RF8gbjtUs DrDRlPErbpJNhN1TlWC+kbFsqGkXWUvaitpVgOle/w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwrDIY5Tv2D9eL28TDSu7h5o9578p0liOj/FmaJoES83TLdSgkKfQGhU0j4rRXRiENvCYgPgd3L2G4S0mnlfg= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2605:: with SMTP id m5mr24616255ybm.130.1617463417397; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 08:23:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Kyle Rose Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 11:23:24 -0400 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e73b305bf130c34" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 15:23:45 -0000 --0000000000006e73b305bf130c34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 11:13 AM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > - I don't find it hard to process ietf@ietf.org mails, and > anyone can unsubscribe, and I don't find the content to be > "toxic" - it's frequently irritating and often boring but > not much more than that. > > - It's a bit sad that people on all sides of most of the > non-technical discussion on that list seem to be notably more > absolutist than was the case some years back. A bit more > tolerance of the imperfections of ourselves and esp. others > might help some. > I can't opine on any of this better than Stephen just did, so I'm just going to quote his email with a responding thumbs-up. - In contrast to absolutism perhaps increasing, I see no > change in our collective willingness to re-state opinions > and regurgitate arguments over the years - that seems the > same since I started reading IETF mails:-) > I don't have the long history of IETF involvement that you do, but knowing many of the old-timers I am not at all surprised. Kyle --0000000000006e73b305bf130c34 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 11:13 AM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

- I don't find it hard to process ietf@ietf.org mails, and
anyone can unsubscribe, and I don't find the content to be
"toxic" - it's frequently irritating and often boring but
not much more than that.

- It's a bit sad that people on all sides of most of the
non-technical discussion on that list seem to be notably more
absolutist than was the case some years back. A bit more
tolerance of the imperfections of ourselves and esp. others
might help some.

I can't opine on any of this better than Stephen just d= id, so I'm just going to quote his email with a responding thumbs-up.

- In contrast to absolutism perhaps increa= sing, I see no
change in our collective willingness to re-state opinions
and regurgitate arguments over the years - that seems the
same since I started reading IETF mails:-)

I don't have the long history= of IETF involvement that you do, but knowing many of the old-timers I am n= ot at all surprised.

Kyl= e
--0000000000006e73b305bf130c34-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 09:20:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1206A3A12E5 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:20:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x_kXX-jwzLJM for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7051E3A12E2 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id e186so8072941iof.7 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 09:19:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GHpnmgcbwXxYERLi6MYfzAYisi+vWVgvb8V8FCqXFbw=; b=l/RirVmzIZ9zJ8bTLxYZRO713aw6safPx+CCtzqGIxFnyB2DTaGpY21I8BGAKsr1ai c7IJHzXNzXAb04qrxUdN5eAThj32Dzx8CydGoXDs9RFAdUy9dybCSg+y5nEHilNQQIlD ddM4RgL7Wde96IGY75d6En58BFgwUoLZxnNVFzp4YFVrCxLSMFNdgMt0HXW8P2mLSOb3 HBSQjfD3bX8hJFR/qtYs5pIw57jQ5iLPMsKR/mZrNbDXh4THtswmjRvojbfyw25RNHVJ IdqThPpatHh8HC9yvVDkCgxjdZzpWeXWXOmFXHdtk0QojYk9LgvDSpPzeoxv4/Ax5jS4 JjVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GHpnmgcbwXxYERLi6MYfzAYisi+vWVgvb8V8FCqXFbw=; b=h1NguceB+HZuifvQxXZ6onRl+0RDeNdTPSH2aUCSwVt4wR3h8MIa6a4ogsFpbGrEFW mUpZkJsmNNFmQgy1DJJyyQpBp6xyvTMRWMJm3GeLh2L40wkKtULU37kYeXd/zwkLQ7Tx OYBiVX8P4NU+rNXBpO+5LLAb4jCJ1WlVmNNZfSwZx9h7xpPj28t2BVuhoEXIriQ+udyD keu8zs0f4ivc+cZOd41W4OtSzW0sbvEVrDl+o7EnD28n/IZIYXR+C8OlAQeUsSC3GnxU BcUkBWMYIzIj8ZcblnDBwaaKkBadjge71ZDjfjPD8i3pzET5g4q9DF0T6EO9kqX3b4qf LYWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532yHYTRWBI2dd35MU278oqk7z49Klzlls/kPXgJgmq8vI7Wwk9+ iMQO+5UPXOP4BB+GARxLlTaxF1NUCpI1EMhNZs0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwShzaL1xhOcy8v+iSxtoXPQrXg5NvgxrQbXxAuLxhgj0HMRH3UjVM0uu6WbrFwwS2cXFGZ7NmTHBYV9+KvF0k= X-Received: by 2002:a02:cc1b:: with SMTP id n27mr17049917jap.106.1617466797864; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 09:19:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:19:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ec391a05bf13d50e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 16:20:04 -0000 --000000000000ec391a05bf13d50e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 7:48 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > Shutting down this venue would only force it somewhere else, or perhaps > underground. > That is the goal. The theory is that useful IETF content will find another IETF list, and the rest can be written somewhere else. thanks, Rob --000000000000ec391a05bf13d50e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 7:48 AM Salz, Rich= <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

=C2=A0Shutting down this venue would only for= ce it somewhere else, or perhaps underground.


That is the goal. The theory is that useful = IETF content will find another IETF list, and the rest can be written somew= here else.

thanks,
Rob
--000000000000ec391a05bf13d50e-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 09:55:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D82C3A148E for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:55:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eXT5U5gQC2zd for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46F223A1487 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:54:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2150; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1617468898; x=1618678498; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=dyn8Kd6iNaTaJM6STDJjo9QxkIuAU687LdygJLpxazU=; b=mGy3SGpaJabTqGH+wVKQDSDZ0gPdtJF13EM1GtpzfHdm9Vmjj6dZtPeW KaUz9rRV2fq9SowZQf3BGRGOUBZzY4vIvu9mDGmQuIIkzG19t5gum0IWi tSyObqcRslfl4WyDHo8uLiOCSb4DRyfH1RSujLUh7ck/su4PHorv0bPSD I=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ATAAC3nGhglxbLJq1aGwEBAQEBAQEBBQEBARIBAQEDA?= =?us-ascii?q?wEBAYIBAwEBAQsBg3cBJxIxhEKJBIhLA5xhBAcBAQEKAwEBNAQBAYRQAoF9J?= =?us-ascii?q?jcGDgIDAQEBAwIDAQEBAQEFAQEBAgEGBBQBAQEBAQEBAWiFXYZFAQICASNWB?= =?us-ascii?q?QsZNAICVwYTFIJdAYJmIalWd4EygQGEWIR8EIE5AYFSi3lDgguBOgwQgil0h?= =?us-ascii?q?1c1gisEgkYXbAeBUGtbD51FnQKDFIM6gUWLfYt6Ax+UKpBEGYYlHax6YwGEA?= =?us-ascii?q?QIEBgUCFoFqIoFbMxoIGxU7KgGCPj4SGQ6OOB4YjXw/Ay84AgYBCQEBAwmOa?= =?us-ascii?q?AEB?= IronPort-HdrOrdr: A9a23:Z7wiGq7gVdkagVx7wQPXwErXdLJzesId70hD6mlaQ3VuA6+lvu qpm+kW0gKxtSYJVBgb9eyoFaGcTRrnlKJdzpIWOd6ZNjXOmGztF4166Jun/juIIU3D38pQz7 1pfaQ7KNCYNzVHpOL75AX9LNo62tmA98mT6tv29HtmQQF0Z6wI1W4QYTqzKUF4SBJLApA0Dv Onl696jgC9cncaZNnTPBc4dtXEzue79q7OUFojDx4j5BLmt0LN1JfKVz6FwxwZTzRDhZAl/G StqX2e2oyT99em1xTby2jfq65zpeKk4N5CCMuQ4/JlTQnRtg== X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,302,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="34675268" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 03 Apr 2021 16:54:53 +0000 Received: from [10.61.144.99] ([10.61.144.99]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 133GsqYZ017664 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 3 Apr 2021 16:54:53 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_18CEBC19-06EF-40B9-9775-4DC5FC319C08"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 18:54:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: GENDISPATCH List To: Kyle Rose References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.144.99, [10.61.144.99] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 16:55:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_18CEBC19-06EF-40B9-9775-4DC5FC319C08 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Kyle, > I don't have the long history of IETF involvement that you do, but = knowing many of the old-timers I am not at all surprised. Since I=E2=80=99ve been part of the party since 1988, I think it=E2=80=99s= time for a change. But I would rather it not be hasty (I feel one of = Tolkien=E2=80=99s Ents saying that). Opportunity for all to express a point of view is important in order to = produce the best work, but the IETF list has the added challenge of = being quite general and cross-cutting in nature, and that means that = things tend to meander into the weeds. Simply shutting down the IETF list, however, leaves us less of a = community. We need to figure out how to evolve a plenary function, and = we should be thinking about all the modalities and tooling available to = us. Rather than view this as a complete negative, I suggest that we take = this as a challenge to find an industry-leading way to improve overall = decision making and discourse in an environment where rough consensus = matters, without us getting too=E2=80=A6 rough. Let=E2=80=99s not just allow for new possibilities here; let=E2=80=99s = seek them. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_18CEBC19-06EF-40B9-9775-4DC5FC319C08 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmBondwACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejMQCAgAhCr9amvBag6sql/hWjqUAyQgA5Rd5QnKFLGzdyGjzDOUQbouf4geHvj1 f0TkhGC/7v3NMUn6MjM+7OVwmADq73j72QW8vbrxu8xApp/EtzxN5RBuSJ2YJcbv AooCkTrR9ECRDStKEwnC3Jos4Xt1r6Vpf86u9XMh2OeBJmOrAllKUg6FZyPSupWr E5UJfveiQHglUKay6kKLQCLs/c7FWLtHYzlh1tj52FYRyhl4/Ojvf9cKf7o5stA+ n2ugBXEuYY/LWGCxIW8CnPsO7jjKt90nB6JhmKfWg2KgExczbG0Ovr6m5K/OBQsn Mt4Deim8rQgbYchPvMUfCeVeLd02Ng== =15Wa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_18CEBC19-06EF-40B9-9775-4DC5FC319C08-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 12:47:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7943A11F0 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:47:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WNQlauCAVJRB for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A26E3A11ED for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id k8so5968063iop.12 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 12:47:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0XpI0HlKDBTqMmnvwwttmfsRCqYW57BRhAe6RnKWwC0=; b=DoUe+rJGRgD6qZRQTyTIS7vSbZ4gxhYQpXeAnvEC+5kOuNddNknYcWTcsv27BGibUj Jusm3PLcxtJHeE4GT4ZPikpG0tELM+gB2ZHCgoT0nqRQjP37ThI1rwJEk5VfDL6KkFCY oekxyuieJuyRHv7FzvspC8nppycBr1ofDgIpd8zw2jBxP2x4HXNK7vEAHs1FEAeSJI3m KSMvZfXmHYFgt9hb15+KBlg5JlMfPZnAH6Vb4EHBPQThfoaR4bwj1DsfabozFa+rQZkk 6tsgVhJJVaTobamgHohLCofenqHd0z55R3+Tnc/k5C0L3eNzsI1dvmwlXjTinA1tj+cG XSLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0XpI0HlKDBTqMmnvwwttmfsRCqYW57BRhAe6RnKWwC0=; b=sVa7leUp+d4xO+GQ96h5c/3IxtShWncMSxTebBNuGWD3Pj+feQ/YLSCcrcJ3CS80xN 8tsCjCZAUXHJZhPuo369VxNutgmAQcW2OG72qOKEd004ByHqEkGtqYpC4ZMtL6UgufMU +IE24GdDh6CslSs4nDYbeAiG8T7YpwhFYPzc0TmEaHuEj5pKI7X9XehZNdNZ3auAGsGg vld8h03y+nCYSGe3JozNws9XxuNNpJVTNa3VzWFRNjVPIYmfB1dEXUjsPEC2GHgGcdZj Ri7KtpM7BX3rRWT+Ew0oadElgtuOOKO3RO7YoQ7rCthGf7j5TfIv4gip3ZkXTTkUtu6n LhPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+/O2KALrVwbJnBpUPguCv/0XGxW4Oc3ZfGOdiTEJGeeOyvgAJ Tf7+ULywYKN/xzSHRg0INV5tfhKqFtoMltoQt9UP3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzf/sQnF5J5pUZOwKakrBBNXod3SysyW2YF4pU8KBPBBP0WjkH6JN3g2M8qite+5vEqMVal8w75u+sjkUEJT4s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:e93:: with SMTP id p19mr17627331jas.10.1617479243073; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 12:47:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <161701910454.13044.908232164554537032@ietfa.amsl.com> <55b4e061-f25d-8958-1e75-868bec0c735e@gmail.com> <963ED8F3-712F-4E8D-BF29-A3E7735E4641@mnot.net> <53AB2142-8BC2-43AC-86E7-EC9F1E72D9D3@cisco.com> <71B14C3D-AF8C-4C7F-9C14-03686F499E4D@eggert.org> <0B3C59C9-5057-4DC2-AF1E-CA3216436996@cisco.com> <10400F6C-C9E3-4136-A4FE-D97B83E6F67C@eggert.org> <9134c6cc-8f44-e4e7-c4aa-8a0dd271adf9@gmail.com> <7b5abd62-092a-69c4-f818-d8870a7324b7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7b5abd62-092a-69c4-f818-d8870a7324b7@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:46:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List , Eliot Lear , Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b71b7905bf16bb8c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Large cluster [Re: I-D Action: draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt] X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 19:47:29 -0000 --000000000000b71b7905bf16bb8c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 3:06 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Off topic, but just to clarify my intention: > > On 31-Mar-21 09:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:13 PM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > wrote: > > > ... > > > We can always revise it again, when there is consensus on more > fundamental changes. > > > > Agreed, and that needs a much deeper analysis. And IMNSHO there are > many much more important process issues to resolve than the occasional > unruly threads on ietf@. Just to pick one at random, what can we do to > prevent something like Cluster 238 ever happening again? > > > > > > This is a bit hard to answer without having a clearer statement > > of what went wrong with C238. > > There's a partial analysis at https://www.ietf.org/blog/webrtc-pandemic/ Yes, I've read that. I agree it's right substantively, but it's not clear to me what the ill effects people are most concerned with are. > > I could imagine several objections here: > > > > - We shouldn't have projects which require changes to large > > chunks of the protocol suite. > > > > - We shouldn't have to publish all the documents in those > > projects simultaneously. > > > > - It's hard for the RPC to manage the simultaneous publication > > of all those documents. > > > > - Something else? > > > > It seems like each of these might have different solutions. > > Indeed, and some of them are related to the old question of how to > dynamically document complex standards with components at different > maturity levels. My real question is: are we going to duck the hard > questions about the IETF standards process? > I'm not sure it's so much a matter of ducking the hard questions as having deep disagreements about their nature and the constraints we are operating under. For instance, ISTM that the primary source of this problem is the insistence on immutability of the published documents and therefore of only publishing document X when all its dependencies are published, rather than when it is otherwise "ready" with the expectation that it might be necessary to revise it if issues are found in the dependencies. However, I am aware that many disagree strongly with that position. Hence, it is difficult to make progress. -Ekr --000000000000b71b7905bf16bb8c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 3:06 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
Off topic, but just to clarify my intention:

On 31-Mar-21 09:20, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:13 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co= m <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> We can always revise it again, when there is c= onsensus on more fundamental changes.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Agreed, and that needs a much deeper analysis. And = IMNSHO there are many much more important process issues to resolve than th= e occasional unruly threads on ietf@. Just to pick one at random, what can = we do to prevent something like Cluster 238 ever happening again?
>
>
> This is a bit hard to answer without having a clearer statement
> of what went wrong with C238.

There's a partial analysis at https://www.ietf.org/blo= g/webrtc-pandemic/

Yes, I've read t= hat. I agree it's right substantively, but it's not clear to me wha= t the ill effects people are most concerned with are.


=C2=A0
> I could imagine several objections here:
>
> - We shouldn't have projects which require changes to large
> =C2=A0 chunks of the protocol suite.
>
> - We shouldn't have to publish all the documents in those
> =C2=A0 projects simultaneously.
>
> - It's hard for the RPC to manage the simultaneous publication
> =C2=A0 of all those documents.
>
> - Something else?
>
> It seems like each of these might have different solutions.

Indeed, and some of them are related to the old question of how to
dynamically document complex standards with components at different
maturity levels. My real question is: are we going to duck the hard
questions about the IETF standards process?

=
I'm not sure it's so much a matter of ducking the hard questio= ns as having deep disagreements about their nature and the constraints we a= re operating under. For instance, ISTM that the primary source of this prob= lem is the insistence on immutability of the published documents and theref= ore of only publishing document X when all its dependencies are published, = rather than when it is otherwise "ready" with the expectation tha= t it might be necessary to revise it if issues are found in the dependencie= s. However, I am aware that many disagree strongly with that position. Henc= e, it is difficult to make progress.

-Ekr


--000000000000b71b7905bf16bb8c-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 12:58:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764863A1266 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:58:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.101 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, GB_SUMOF=5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sJkRA5_IVGyO for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr100047.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.10.47]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC9E83A1264 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:58:25 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=c0iPQrFWZ0LbVOtkw4yzycth0z5wNs0L8GeiG7PlzD13R6fUU8mL0avKHBwfRmhKsXbpUzLsjxv2t8TwA12Y3oWX64vMdT1mx9BuUmP2+etB6U5pDJLYWyKpEq4W9HPKkIWxkBXNpLngBIQJey1AZrlFW3vVtvOnSzO+7nl17BSz7+6IUjCDt5/t3KwW9JYJV3Vg8sDQOWSrgXtvgT9ueUz6VR3aiBSn9iZyguJ3yFr9Vlp3OJgPNVPAWt6RMmXKTFUsQmyppm7jRc+R52ss4WFGqZwP2pxufDzmmmBifm4vS4jQQUEQlKGtCwz6pGCzB9IB6Y2xyUf3ryam7rYtfQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=C0cXbi0B0PqgHlniwbnx1xm4h1WLPwTMVeZtH+K+z5E=; b=ad9VrsQdy5rjKTv/roQxdIlDDx4xzHWmDM8qa66sKol5vE9dyvHh1AHx70JYB4s1SAAuGbo33g7dxMJJdwCicB3FzybUDl5E93p8mT0ZUpMVDB6cbJG/8oVlQGq+bPs9a7uy9WTTOyMxIAOx6lh51V+8x60IHcJrb9oK/XZzdDuHZuEYFNjRCLT85bjoRxC9HIjipf9XyRU7mQle3CMU79cN2uVx9igl6oOugLk+D62AuMRcEKwohRvA8bJ6YgUGWUeZYKHN7iXMQTI4SxAi1SSheIKixZKdF975v7PisicuGrQ0qNBFIuoHLUhTYxok+msb0Qe+LROqnkRMIYAKFQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=C0cXbi0B0PqgHlniwbnx1xm4h1WLPwTMVeZtH+K+z5E=; b=rSHtVNOnLJ10ov2nnApZGYgxKNIambP6puDxSzOujGBnlZmjmpu093O9yONrdhxWP1zPxl6vAZeO7n10oFu2fz0Ku/uIqDtJDtsquo0LsnnzrA6Hmiyr3ClsJVz7qOvUGs22OJyJ8FjdK1iTM75Zxh9m5CrAA+YfcyBx9dXWKqs= Received: from LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:67::18) by LO2P265MB1022.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:99::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.32; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:58:23 +0000 Received: from LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::1107:ec3d:f5b3:7520]) by LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::1107:ec3d:f5b3:7520%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:58:23 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: Stephen Farrell , "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHXKJvkltGEHNgpj0ahsWyscIHjNKqjMCjg Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:58:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: cs.tcd.ie; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=none action=none header.from=419.consulting; x-originating-ip: [86.144.96.155] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1b86c49b-b073-4848-1cf1-08d8f6dad642 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P265MB1022: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:3826; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: yYyXmSGTJvx44WXmuF2ZKjFHB+75PWPuV1HNdp7VIbfs58PHC6CAZOb/qJIh5/vdp3wO1f6q7Qa9yHZkiiz8hv9rL/lIfrE1dB6Rfl/p3vcUhrrMqxcYKX1YNjHglVmB6rJ/LT/yOyfhCGyagEHbBdhNL554X/NIEsBt4h5k3xwrtxLxls+jHQ05HetOQ1to1pc2mgzT+6OL4Irjj3t42KeKYF79p8WZwfbzQmjGB/yeS8buTvemAf6Z/YyLlR3FtsMDW1myNAY2o6nc5QVV5L6E7mUUbxzu8f2H3jgasWlkOZPvn7uHSWY5zacahxn1z8xRMQNWiwK2sv/m79kMJnwgBq8ssGYMFbABY80EoDa6NA09Ldn74NUp4R6/ftAIKmUvcy9+4ItQTusYLf/o50HEitA7q19uAykOEii1gJCAJijB5vrv0FCgcvptfrfP6zHtNdI4FENwviz6jLSkKSUdny2K82It/uCioMgYevv/l33FDIgbJGOTfUTIJw7vHxVECqKcMVXIAbOjo4QksgZ7fIhw8Vs0CnUEEbov5Zds4gpD7kIA5dGb9JfWEDMmPgskZZvAjiNubAPc64Kz64vASp3PJI4j7ygXGhmxfkdNM3mmV/BlRadl02gE3s+FWR80ZdB5vfunYuHHP1V52z2sQujpXOt7hSv3+FqUOHDbmTYznTz6XcsDg++vWD5I x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(136003)(376002)(396003)(346002)(366004)(39830400003)(9686003)(478600001)(33656002)(66476007)(6506007)(71200400001)(44832011)(66556008)(64756008)(66446008)(5660300002)(53546011)(66946007)(76116006)(316002)(8676002)(110136005)(296002)(52536014)(83380400001)(38100700001)(26005)(2906002)(8936002)(86362001)(55016002)(7696005)(186003)(46492009); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?utf-8?B?K2ZkeUMvWUNIT1JzNkFQTFZnbG15a0dINERiVWJOMjJURmJLRC83NWxWeU8w?= =?utf-8?B?Z1B4MU1YVDRkcXcrdElyeUcwdE9IZFpyQXRBZk4xWjZIdjZySGZCVXl6RXJQ?= =?utf-8?B?ZzVQMnhyV2RneTVZMS9rQ0lGSkpXQk5BRFVGT3YxZVJjRFZxRGlhT3c3VkU3?= =?utf-8?B?amtWK00wb1JnWlpZeFJBTzdVMWNuS3FJdlVDdjJzWVZJdnZIRElzeWpmRjJ5?= =?utf-8?B?YngrL3F1QzZObFFVTmdzUXRBTW83WDJnY0xBZjFjWUdjY3g2K2x5ZUtFdkoz?= =?utf-8?B?d0VwVHJzYnpmaTBFcXZzMG1RVW9FUkpYc2E0aGkrOXVCQWorTGJwQXdaU0ZS?= =?utf-8?B?aG5hQXN0aVQ2YlM4VXhsZ2R6QjlJK014bTluWjZ6bHNmT0RrLzAxMnppSW44?= =?utf-8?B?M3pkTE54MmlnbWNCL1M0aUphQUI4SWVwelNtNUdzNGw5alg3UUZvUlpub1pu?= =?utf-8?B?akVmcG1jNnppa2JVS210eUkreHZtYndSdXJ1cHpaOFVmQXh6Yzh5Q1pnNUpH?= =?utf-8?B?b3hvN3ZkRjY4YjVxQVMzYkZRNmpiajVUSVhRUkZTejVPMEhDVTVQTjQzZDlD?= =?utf-8?B?UlRuM1gwL3hkRVNiZ0xDTVRvUXFrcFBpUUV4WmtjZEI3UXFwbDZFeDNVOVZs?= =?utf-8?B?ZVJraW9NTWdxWUovWWlqU2lubGxDYmFSd1lJd0lDZjdMRTNWc0pHOWkzV0Np?= =?utf-8?B?djJZaUJ1b3dqYU9zWnVhYzdsRm81RzBzVzJ4cG5GbmlWMVBkdWpNZjJ3TVgx?= =?utf-8?B?Z0kxM29nQXR5ajRjb0lSa21kZ01kMTN0a3FtcWdiNTBKaHhNb0d6UDBPUlJP?= =?utf-8?B?K014dGhHWnhPbU5aMTU4RDFzaVFDUjhmeVZHZ2tZV0VlcDRtb0NQc2xGNG5I?= =?utf-8?B?QUJFcHRSc2VvcEM2alNaMCtPdjF1N3F2ZTRBR0hzT3o2ZkRzbHBYNW9rUVR3?= =?utf-8?B?YXVJYnhsY3NiL05xM1NuR24zd1R2WVdES0xLS0NmUnVUSEJnM0F3SGJlZGZM?= =?utf-8?B?V3c3eFI4RTNjam1EdTRKQjZkb3VPME05WU0yT3JLbzV2S0plZmpMVUw1Mnhm?= =?utf-8?B?cDZZc2lqYXg5b051YUFVUE1HYnppa0RpajVWLzF4SmlnVUYySHJJVVFhT0N3?= =?utf-8?B?eVJaU1lLMTcxNU1FN0JOcndIOGp1SnJZYTdvUVBHL1lQSEpQQi9CQTZFNmJ6?= =?utf-8?B?YlFIanVhdERIOUp6cGsrZ0NjNGV3T2FIbjd4dEVjT0xVUVBLMFN2bVZBZSsx?= =?utf-8?B?RWkxcTNLNjNEbHg2T2Q0a01xVm9MRTZZYkFIZnByWkxacks0ZDI4K1VPd0Rx?= =?utf-8?B?K0dncHk4UVNWMk1LS1B2MmlER0FFSk1XTHpHWXl2U21CckU1VnpFL1RQdmZH?= =?utf-8?B?M09kU0NHOFNlSkkvTEdHb1E1RldvRGt2TUx1SGV2cDhtaW5IYUhYc3VvQnhX?= =?utf-8?B?c0lXOFhuRU9Dbk5kYnF6b1dsRitQSGtaOHNWdmYxeUxPN1pMRzNNMXltUXg5?= =?utf-8?B?WCtVTllzRkxwWXBPK3NFbEYrRnUya1RaK3dDaWpsN0w2VGlnYU9DY3V2VkRj?= =?utf-8?B?dlZGZmpFY2ZGUHVTeEZDMDhlQVY1dDBTWjFoWXB5RUxXZUM5RVR4MTZPNWk1?= =?utf-8?B?SGp1V3F4UVRGRUoyK01jeDJDRTB6c3AraDE0Z2oxMnliQUhlNXZLTFQ3UURa?= =?utf-8?B?RXhQQ2cwNFFmRzF1Nk05QkVtOXlpNTMyTVQ0TjZKYWJLYkUzY09NOGpLTXRV?= =?utf-8?Q?gsMui8gNX8i3q5SK9Y=3D?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1b86c49b-b073-4848-1cf1-08d8f6dad642 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Apr 2021 19:58:22.9816 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: DVIUA/MQKwK1Gk628Vzv7kBKI18RYeVIpvwunKQTMJJy8d0H3nSyS/IcK/noK2Ppzp7Bn2hzWvTyxb1vqh7YLzICTKrl3GyDjvVvWufivCw= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P265MB1022 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 19:58:30 -0000 DQpPbiAwMy8wNC8yMDIxIDE2OjEzLCBTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW4uZmFycmVsbEBj cy50Y2QuaWU+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+IEhpeWEuDQoNCj4gT24gMDMvMDQvMjAyMSAxNTo0OCwgU2Fs eiwgUmljaCB3cm90ZToNCj4+IA0KPj4gDQo+PiAqICAgSSd2ZSBiZWVuIHRoaW5raW5nIGFib3V0 IHdyaXRpbmcgYW4gSS1EIHByb3Bvc2luZyB0byBzaHV0IGRvd24NCj4+IGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc8 bWFpbHRvOmlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc+Lg0KPj4gDQo+PiBTdHJvbmdseSBvcHBvc2VkLg0KPg0KPlNh bWUgaGVyZS4gQ2xvc2luZyBpZXRmQGlldGYub3JnIGlzIGFuIGF3ZnVsIGlkZWEgdGhhdCBJIGhv cGUgaXMgcXVpY2tseSBkcm9wcGVkLg0KPg0KPj4gDQo+PiBQdWJsaWMgZGlzY291cnNlIGlzIG1l c3N5LiAgSHVtYW5zIG9mdGVuIHN1Y2suICBTdWNoIGlzIHRoZSBwcmljZSB3ZSANCj4+IGhhdmUg dG8gcGF5LiBTaHV0dGluZyBkb3duIHRoaXMgdmVudWUgd291bGQgb25seSBmb3JjZSBpdCBzb21l d2hlcmUgDQo+PiBlbHNlLCBvciBwZXJoYXBzIHVuZGVyZ3JvdW5kLg0KPg0KPlRoYXQsIGFuZCBp ZXRmQGlldGYub3JnIElNTyBmdWxmaWxzIG1hbnkgcHVycG9zZXMsIG5vdCBhbGwgd3JpdHRlbiBk b3duIC0ganVzdCBhcyBvbmUgbWlub3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgb25lIGNhbiBvZnRlbiBnZXQgYSB1c2Vm dWwgaW1wcmVzc2lvbiBvZiBhIHBvc3RpbmcgZnJvbSB0aGUgc2V0IG9mIHByZXZpb3VzIHBvc3Rp bmdzIGZyb20gdGhlIHNhbWUgYXV0aG9yIC0gSSB0aGluayBzdWNoICJmZWF0dXJlcyIgd291bGQg YmUgdmVyeSBsaWtlbHkgbWlzc2VkIHNob3VsZCB0aGF0IGxpc3QgYmUgY2xvc2VkIGFuZCB3ZSdk IGVuZCB1cCB3aXRoIGFsbCBzb3J0cyBvZiBnYXBzIHRoYXQnZCBuZWVkIGZpbGxpbmcuDQo+DQo+ IEEgZmV3IHJlbGF0ZWQgdGhvdWdodHM6DQo+DQo+LSBJIGRvbid0IGZpbmQgaXQgaGFyZCB0byBw cm9jZXNzIGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmcgbWFpbHMsIGFuZCBhbnlvbmUgY2FuIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlLCBh bmQgSSBkb24ndCBmaW5kIHRoZSBjb250ZW50IHRvIGJlICJ0b3hpYyIgLSBpdCdzIGZyZXF1ZW50 bHkgaXJyaXRhdGluZyBhbmQgb2Z0ZW4gYm9yaW5nIGJ1dCBub3QgbXVjaCBtb3JlIHRoYW4gdGhh dC4NCj4NCj4tIEl0J3MgYSBiaXQgc2FkIHRoYXQgcGVvcGxlIG9uIGFsbCBzaWRlcyBvZiBtb3N0 IG9mIHRoZSBub24tdGVjaG5pY2FsIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb24gdGhhdCBsaXN0IHNlZW0gdG8gYmUg bm90YWJseSBtb3JlIGFic29sdXRpc3QgdGhhbiB3YXMgdGhlIGNhc2Ugc29tZSB5ZWFycyBiYWNr LiBBIGJpdCBtb3JlIHRvbGVyYW5jZSBvZiB0aGUgaW1wZXJmZWN0aW9ucyBvZiBvdXJzZWx2ZXMg YW5kIGVzcC4gb3RoZXJzIG1pZ2h0IGhlbHAgc29tZS4NCj4NCj4tIEluIGNvbnRyYXN0IHRvIGFi c29sdXRpc20gcGVyaGFwcyBpbmNyZWFzaW5nLCBJIHNlZSBubyBjaGFuZ2UgaW4gb3VyIGNvbGxl Y3RpdmUgd2lsbGluZ25lc3MgdG8gcmUtc3RhdGUgb3BpbmlvbnMgYW5kIHJlZ3VyZ2l0YXRlIGFy Z3VtZW50cyBvdmVyIHRoZSB5ZWFycyAtIHRoYXQgc2VlbXMgdGhlIHNhbWUgc2luY2UgSSBzdGFy dGVkIHJlYWRpbmcgSUVURiBtYWlsczotKQ0KDQoNClRoaXMgaXMgdG8gbm90ZSBmb3IgdGhlIHJl Y29yZCB0aGF0IEknbSBhbHNvIHN0cm9uZ2x5IG9wcG9zZWQgdG8gdGhlIGlkZWEgb2Ygc2h1dHRp bmcgZG93biBpZXRmQGlldGYub3JnLiAgQXMgb3RoZXJzIGhhdmUgc3RhdGVkLCB0aGUgY29tbXVu aXR5IGRvZXMgYXBwZWFyIHRvIGJlIHByZXR0eSBmcmFnbWVudGVkIGFueXdheSBhbmQgY2xvc2lu ZyBkb3duIHRoaXMgbGlzdCB3b3VsZCByZWluZm9yY2UgdGhlIGluY3JlYXNpbmcgc2VwYXJhdGlv biBvZiB0aGUgbWFueSBJRVRGIHNpbG9zLiAgVGhpcyB3aWxsIG1ha2UgaXQgZXZlbiBoYXJkZXIg Zm9yIHBvdGVudGlhbCBuZXcgcGFydGljaXBhbnRzIHRvIGpvaW4gZnVsbHkgYW5kIGVmZmVjdGl2 ZWx5LCBhZGRpbmcgeWV0IGFub3RoZXIgYmFycmllciB0byBpbmhpYml0IHByb2dyZXNzIGluIGlt cHJvdmluZyB0aGUgb3ZlcmFsbCBkaXZlcnNpdHkgb2YgdGhlIGNvbW11bml0eS4gIA0KDQpJZiBh bnl0aGluZyB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIG5lZWQgdG8gY3JlYXRlIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgYXZlbnVlcyBmb3Ig dGhlIGV4Y2hhbmdlIG9mIGlkZWFzIGFuZCBjcm9zcy1mZXJ0aWxpc2F0aW9uIGJldHdlZW4gdGhl IHNpbG9zLiAgV2l0aG91dCBzdWNoIGxpbmthZ2VzLCB5b3UgY291bGQgbWFrZSBhIGNhc2UgdG8g ZGlzYmFuZCB0aGUgSUVURiBhbmQgcmVwbGFjZSBpdCB3aXRoIHNldmVyYWwgc21hbGwgU0RPcywg cG9zc2libHkgYmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgYXJlYXMuICBOQiBJJ20gbm90IGFkdm9jYXRp bmcgdGhpcyBhbmQgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBhIGRpc2FzdHJvdXMgaWRlYSEgIA0K DQpTbyBpbnN0ZWFkIG9mIHNodXR0aW5nIGRvd24gaWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZyBhbmQgaW5jcmVhc2lu ZyB0aGUgc2Vuc2Ugb2Ygc2VwYXJhdGlvbiwgbGV0J3MgY29uc2lkZXIgaG93IHRvIHJlLWVuZXJn aXNlIGNyb3NzLWFyZWEsIGNyb3NzLXdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAgaW50ZXJhY3Rpb25zLiAgVGhlIGxh Y2sgb2YgZmFjZS10by1mYWNlIG1lZXRpbmdzIGZvciB0aGUgbGFzdCB0d2VsdmUgbW9udGhzIGhh cyBoaWdobGlnaHRlZCB0aGUgaW1wb3J0YW50IHJvbGUgdGhhdCB0aG9zZSBtZWV0aW5ncyBwbGF5 IGluIGZvc3RlcmluZyB0aGUgc2Vuc2Ugb2YgY29tbXVuaXR5OyB3aGF0IGVsc2UgY2FuIGJlIGRv bmUgdG8gYXVnbWVudCB0aG9zZSBhbmQgdGhlIGxpc3QgdG8gZW5zdXJlIHRoYXQgdGhlIElFVEYg cmVtYWlucyBtb3JlIHRoYW4gdGhlIHN1bSBvZiBpdHMgcGFydHM/DQoNCg0KQW5kcmV3IA0KDQog DQo= From nobody Sat Apr 3 13:04:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562363A129F for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:04:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SIp8dySqod3l for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 052263A129E for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id l9so1126724ils.6 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 13:04:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dE4GK2tF6m5lZD/wv7v+a6N8VQsaSsOZRIHOE2qYWx4=; b=rSretNsavt+CTgpPvEDC25dFX3NJFm+C7dTq17Dv65g5wqck++8dd3F6dpr4LEVwUC i02sAkcQvYYtitNu1muXYrbCeu+CWDsRpsU1QKkI9UJRFBLunfVe2/DzWxBbvY1ZplFT Vca40wfu8VXX3/zEn0GsBlPhqYcBiiFw9X03CQgmoS6078uG7Mis01ncpx6LxVl2FKtY I4PTp41uIwhYQTNA/uTwObL6TleCUpsdOvcrBpAEIA7KU6LqbnmOWo5WCdDtQu3+LFMM ViM4GvAwXS8cW7DPmpfN6sZmTl27XQ7EWvio67Y2RPuwFVwDZg3GmlV1COOKV97+qX1H SdRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dE4GK2tF6m5lZD/wv7v+a6N8VQsaSsOZRIHOE2qYWx4=; b=fA+mH+yzikHN7b4AhwntlxLOiNVlY3uKwtI5KK8k9KpT8YQDJ7SblNEbu8UKPzzxUp FgduiPsHi5020h0Wp0twXNvcQ8xZzjJZN9tQYDAxaGyoNQAkKH54j5y8NAaCfKzEvwfF GdC2te9pW0jMF2TPhPKbNCtMfD2wir3WFT6AO5iKTt98h8XuCm4Ef09PrKVJcjnvB2YC yltT62pR7uCTZiHasilJXLvANvYNIzMsKMcC+mOG9vZUsg2GwYwZtkpnyfLJe+/TThqX zqo3e6p44xxgX/DJPXRCi73eePhc5ZAdONf6RIT2zrJvLiWwzyFyaoQf3PmtuYUX2czE U0dQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530J3qLTplEF1LTENWqUGGWLESwfbMPgYwnZzDwdwGPRpP2G17PD iaFvJbSuIO9m0wX3TEXKacNatyY4h+ddhEBf4+sNuA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw85agGLuDOktUZ3NZQefqZbrtSSFTbKE1YTiRxKt3bgmBzPHoY2RkyFnAKnuHCsaIET7AzbCIukgIoiQBJJOI= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d5cf:: with SMTP id d15mr14856480ilq.18.1617480265467; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 13:04:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:03:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rob Sayre Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a79eec05bf16f8f0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:04:31 -0000 --000000000000a79eec05bf16f8f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Rob, I share your (and others) negative opinion of the IETF list. However, I think it's also clear from this discussion that there is significant opposition to having no "general" list at all. >From my perspective, a lot of the problem is not so much that the list is general, but that it is largely unmoderated. Long painful experience shows that communities need tending if they are not to descend into a toxic mess, and moderation is an important part of that tending. Our WG lists seem to do better both because they are tightly scoped and because the chairs are empowered to manage the discussion. In that vein, I think what's needed is: - Having alternate venues for all normal business of the IETF, so that nobody needs to subscribe to ietf@ietf.org - Much more active moderation on ietf@ietf.org, with the intent of significantly reducing the level of acrimony and endless arguments. We are well on our way to the first. I recognize the second would require an RFC update, and I would support such a proposal. -Ekr On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 9:20 AM Rob Sayre wrote: > On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 7:48 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > >> Shutting down this venue would only force it somewhere else, or perhaps >> underground. >> > > That is the goal. The theory is that useful IETF content will find another > IETF list, and the rest can be written somewhere else. > > thanks, > Rob > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000a79eec05bf16f8f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rob,

I share your (and other= s) negative opinion of the IETF list. However, I think it's also clear = from this discussion that there is significant opposition to having no &quo= t;general" list at all.

From my perspecti= ve, a lot of the problem is not so much that the list is general, but that = it is largely unmoderated. Long painful experience shows that communities n= eed tending if they are not to descend into a toxic mess, and moderation is= an important part of that tending. Our WG lists seem to do better both bec= ause they are tightly scoped and because the chairs are empowered to manage= the discussion. In that vein, I think what's needed is:

=
- Having alternate venues for all normal business of the IETF, s= o that nobody needs to subscribe to ietf@i= etf.org
- Much more active moderation on ietf@ietf.org, with the intent of significantly reducing t= he level of acrimony and endless arguments.

W= e are well on our way to the first. I recognize the second would require an= RFC update, and I would support such a proposal.

<= div>-Ekr


On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 9:20 AM Rob Sayre <= sayrer@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 7:48 AM Salz, Rich <= rsalz@akamai.com&= gt; wrote:

=C2=A0Shutting down this venue would only for= ce it somewhere else, or perhaps underground.


That is the goal. The theory is that useful = IETF content will find another IETF list, and the rest can be written somew= here else.

thanks,
Rob
--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000a79eec05bf16f8f0-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 13:05:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D653A12A9 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:05:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fq7tmuigABGs for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 000353A12AC for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id z136so8406526iof.10 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 13:05:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EMSP0trjYBV2d/DVNXEv4rFR/jvoMCzYwt1MCbhHjHQ=; b=neDOWVS5uhwtao/tAgHnhxJsGBqQJXRuGJF2q0RKuU6z+ZnMQQYRstfdDjK+tXF6FR 87//hsoYGsVjWaKvjdqpWsanqxnSAMIyU4B5RL7LrY5fO0vG+RUGb9HYXjsHopNiPdpg TqKzXzReOP5wa90XjATrdf3lYxVMuFWgwYdkkeXdqwGFmdrKt2zVJtJNkSWHZwPSB9pc JtlZtRBckOsF1bI9HbiVLXbMgmVhfJW6pIbx2ZYig2q2p3TD/Qx0LTNkYyHA4cZLA1Uw TWrz1oQxHaPawpG5DbY7UkNZX2GmRgHcrWIe8bZklL1dahGwSNQWGqxxhclq9wPivO1o b+5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EMSP0trjYBV2d/DVNXEv4rFR/jvoMCzYwt1MCbhHjHQ=; b=OgAHPfnGdogfcLIrhgn329o09V3lOTXjait24esoiBRcf0qH+eWP6LufHgt/43t+D2 uhUSrp7egjaK5fJOAljdREESGd4sdnYJZFr6QqogzSesNROrX5xNAQqT3ZUXUrdzRPie I/4rCcYRlsM0G5YG4153vlT1nESnK3+8kp1Bq3RjZ8zC1scbHJ/Lp03QZJEdTawOZIhQ TFPzy1hITP01yZU9RJfvS6+24H2OYwGtwwWwtivrJXiLTq/4+1DBPjogYNMsA+A1NQUU o16DkANFl1J98axAEBQUSiiv9o6i9Hv0L6zgI5RbdtOD5n9CsiFAzpIrpUbpWaq15xRb JJbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531xwPwVaYf2ZcKAHrhUZILdQCA4tBI3ToRX3Yiu5jk//s9ycB/P DmNp9VPNyzvaRbKO0W6gfjtzmGx2bh9jtb4gXHI7Dw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxFBy6rnlk7Pf8xtCHFkyrzy628gYnSWPFa+QMIsdLwRCe3RAghwwpm2rX3sgw5Qa2cpBBpR4feI293MXNBbxo= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:4f09:: with SMTP id d9mr14870966iob.60.1617480335957; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:05:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Andrew Campling Cc: Stephen Farrell , "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000db36be05bf16fc9d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:05:44 -0000 --000000000000db36be05bf16fc9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 12:58 PM Andrew Campling wrote: > > On 03/04/2021 16:13, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > Hiya. > > > On 03/04/2021 15:48, Salz, Rich wrote: > >> > >> > >> * I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposing to shut down > >> ietf@ietf.org. > >> > >> Strongly opposed. > > > >Same here. Closing ietf@ietf.org is an awful idea that I hope is quickly > dropped. > > > >> > >> Public discourse is messy. Humans often suck. Such is the price we > >> have to pay. Shutting down this venue would only force it somewhere > >> else, or perhaps underground. > > > >That, and ietf@ietf.org IMO fulfils many purposes, not all written down > - just as one minor example, one can often get a useful impression of a > posting from the set of previous postings from the same author - I think > such "features" would be very likely missed should that list be closed and > we'd end up with all sorts of gaps that'd need filling. > > > > A few related thoughts: > > > >- I don't find it hard to process ietf@ietf.org mails, and anyone can > unsubscribe, and I don't find the content to be "toxic" - it's frequently > irritating and often boring but not much more than that. > > > >- It's a bit sad that people on all sides of most of the non-technical > discussion on that list seem to be notably more absolutist than was the > case some years back. A bit more tolerance of the imperfections of > ourselves and esp. others might help some. > > > >- In contrast to absolutism perhaps increasing, I see no change in our > collective willingness to re-state opinions and regurgitate arguments over > the years - that seems the same since I started reading IETF mails:-) > > > This is to note for the record that I'm also strongly opposed to the idea > of shutting down ietf@ietf.org. As others have stated, the community > does appear to be pretty fragmented anyway and closing down this list would > reinforce the increasing separation of the many IETF silos. This will make > it even harder for potential new participants to join fully and > effectively, adding yet another barrier to inhibit progress in improving > the overall diversity of the community. I find this to be a somewhat surprising suggestion. Subscribing to ietf@ietf.org seems like about the last thing I would advise a new participant to do -- at least if I wanted them to continue to participate -Ekr --000000000000db36be05bf16fc9d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 12:58 PM Andre= w Campling <andrew.campling@419.consulting> wrote:

On 03/04/2021 16:13, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

> Hiya.

> On 03/04/2021 15:48, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>
>>
>> *=C2=A0 =C2=A0I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposin= g to shut down
>> ietf@ietf.org<mailto:ietf@ietf.o= rg>.
>>
>> Strongly opposed.
>
>Same here. Closing i= etf@ietf.org is an awful idea that I hope is quickly dropped.
>
>>
>> Public discourse is messy.=C2=A0 Humans often suck.=C2=A0 Such is = the price we
>> have to pay. Shutting down this venue would only force it somewher= e
>> else, or perhaps underground.
>
>That, and ietf@ietf.= org IMO fulfils many purposes, not all written down - just as one minor= example, one can often get a useful impression of a posting from the set o= f previous postings from the same author - I think such "features"= ; would be very likely missed should that list be closed and we'd end u= p with all sorts of gaps that'd need filling.
>
> A few related thoughts:
>
>- I don't find it hard to process ietf@ietf.org mails, and anyone can unsubscribe, and = I don't find the content to be "toxic" - it's frequently = irritating and often boring but not much more than that.
>
>- It's a bit sad that people on all sides of most of the non-techni= cal discussion on that list seem to be notably more absolutist than was the= case some years back. A bit more tolerance of the imperfections of ourselv= es and esp. others might help some.
>
>- In contrast to absolutism perhaps increasing, I see no change in our = collective willingness to re-state opinions and regurgitate arguments over = the years - that seems the same since I started reading IETF mails:-)


This is to note for the record that I'm also strongly opposed to the id= ea of shutting down ietf= @ietf.org.=C2=A0 As others have stated, the community does appear to be= pretty fragmented anyway and closing down this list would reinforce the in= creasing separation of the many IETF silos.=C2=A0 This will make it even ha= rder for potential new participants to join fully and effectively, adding y= et another barrier to inhibit progress in improving the overall diversity o= f the community.=C2=A0

I find this to be a = somewhat surprising suggestion. Subscribing to ietf@ietf.org seems like about the last thing I would advise a new= participant to do -- at least if I wanted them to continue to participate<= br>

-Ekr
--000000000000db36be05bf16fc9d-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 13:15:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DCE3A1326 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:15:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nS0jVaKzfwev for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr100074.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.10.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 410F43A1315 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:15:22 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Mg8gmnTZpFGYkEutLY47d8iTcI0tJSs5hJ5VnrAqGucKShekLv8JexDAPkLSY/pfVnhLbUCTbiGLvuN1t/LGTN2hzR6ZPp22fWqf7OBqwhxgPRhR6G1nrezkDR34YJv4O18noTvtJzUsoxu85sSbg9pMmh44KZiRSH2UuauwRSCOE9WqMLVhCQCvTagM9CGvxTGII2oTUQQybtCspCUcS1fnU+8alrQcskHNz0xIzAtLgaoSm6dm8kYsJTqqmmkgr95lMayN0R0fJMYdcZu9r3lSCzfK1XjAANTHV8DXUbbsxz0sABPyjnxihz6OqFjAsPzMknU5iqr6IsMexeNECw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=cWsMaMZT9zOmmFnXyOp8dChWVpSfOQuFxD52ztUHfJU=; b=Cy6iuMvlvHtyql7PNLxyGludI8ryO3kLupxIgE/j3i/igZo0qfo0K8HRwkVQu+exEFiewaRy1O+lO21blMO1Wk9TC0TPGUmrWAciH0QJOTRPqKLLFZs0VflakWPtGKSBpUQriaPLVj8cMKWSRkFOimFZGv4iuqaShp2dREMg/mZ8v03K1knThTGiABDAbSKbZ+nXJvEtgzL0rHHB71HO9kPPetW0M5Ekw3CFJkD3ZPmduIuHlqdDhBT/WhBGDgVORn/FA1wT+MyCjw2QhNRZolX1E7oyvXFLmcVSSObH/t5X9b/E0QuAgr8F41gupquLcD1uSegmZXX3jzTKnUXl9g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=cWsMaMZT9zOmmFnXyOp8dChWVpSfOQuFxD52ztUHfJU=; b=n4V4UYWV+eDTAUNo05ntlkN1eWBiKW/4ky87euni3n/NIpSS+F6Izfu0S7fVS27ZXZyu5br9jHE+n5pUXIfDR3WOnuFh5sC0F58r0wrsfx4On5f9m2GuvzpWECPKcPNJn/H+/fWGBTgxRm/ik96NVmQXgOy+9GJ/skoDq+V29/4= Received: from LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.101.18) by LO2P265MB4053.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.242.6.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.32; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:15:17 +0000 Received: from LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::1107:ec3d:f5b3:7520]) by LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::1107:ec3d:f5b3:7520%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:15:16 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: Eric Rescorla CC: Stephen Farrell , "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHXKJvkltGEHNgpj0ahsWyscIHjNKqjMCjggAAH4ACAAAF5oA== Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:15:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: rtfm.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;rtfm.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=419.consulting; x-originating-ip: [86.144.96.155] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f30d29b7-1446-4463-ad96-08d8f6dd326e x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P265MB4053: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 5h51sDc5H1KVxAdmLa7d4YlyAglLafeLTpuY5R/7PB7Ke6FOtOD3yhfNkS1Tk4n+Cl09vvxLTIz/xEc1JkjK2rClBCAV13aL/hif3MoBAYGlLViMEaCwJ/SxBgdE/Mh5uj+F1opUevX+iX4EOQoHjB4OfGI69IxDKD/3nMFVckBoPH114Fci9EN4dDlggIl8/LSoEpdOLtGo0lofWvaXmYta+mzWzl3WOipMKFS1ovWrMv/wvWTLYZS12XTaWrqWdXUFPs4c7cwtDGpJycDFy7z40B72g9A6Caxl+WB0CM3bizJWacTD58gkdquJijyTIhhv548VZDVfnHk/lJrQlaLQcT8gRIb7rCt+XFu2txxjJWjeZIgr85VZluFw4+uSfYJRS9+QXeOPf87sgpIUGfVFIw6C3PwX41oWNAnxoWm4YX5IAkyD3gq5KDgkDWT+vMrMX0UHGoqgUq5XP34HVXpRN9Iu12TaRdZN+N6px+Aoes2H/vCyaJ6PzU6ERGUTk+5sHgGwhmz/7xrUih/l4laOh7k1Vgh2FuEZJdIzCeJv2ig2EZlD60Ggvt8sRi/MuH+2Tz9BLMDfTPv6KntFoH/ywuJfcVhUvAAmC9FxWP1gzPHoTRf0d3WYiMHUCnulrvojFPOETX3Lt7PPQ4MV2924qf5vs58zbW5L8EE80CUTfvZe9QBjDPTX+PUUjo0C x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(346002)(136003)(366004)(39830400003)(376002)(396003)(316002)(52536014)(186003)(5660300002)(54906003)(66476007)(66556008)(4326008)(86362001)(66946007)(64756008)(44832011)(8936002)(2906002)(8676002)(76116006)(9686003)(33656002)(478600001)(6506007)(53546011)(55016002)(6916009)(71200400001)(4744005)(66446008)(7696005)(38100700001)(26005)(46492009); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?utf-8?B?bTBZTzJSMnBON0M3TTZnbUM3L09qZ0J1UWg2R3NDWnZTRTU5SnMwNkJ6ZFVm?= =?utf-8?B?ZDd2cTFPWm9jVXFNUkdZb2tXTHpaQmhOTkFUcXROS0xDeVpzTStrSUFpQ1oy?= =?utf-8?B?WmtCdW81RzBpalVwNDFYUVdVT01QTlhiZzk3ZXhBcEE5OGx2a1EvV0trYWNa?= =?utf-8?B?VTJZQVVvMkZSNEdxY2pHYmcwWXlpSjJRemxpTm8vbXpSaFE2QkR6d3pHOTNK?= =?utf-8?B?Vk5qZml0OERKK2tZeUVUMTRudWx6UmJFS3lVQjNlcU81MEFyUkEzdGdzVTlT?= =?utf-8?B?UElMSFY5c1N4VS94ZWRVeG1IaGxLTUtGT2l6N2pjN1o1cnEwM3NUWVUwU0NK?= =?utf-8?B?Y2RmUi9UaHJyVGd6NlFqcGtBWlVTQ3FDWUREZCtvWW5PbzBiOG1LM0pVK0Nn?= =?utf-8?B?dXBlT2xqcitVOHpmcW44c2JRUHBMdEl4SGtzWDhCcTJva2dHUjJsb2JUQU1p?= =?utf-8?B?NkJjOGlsUWJvMnFLTUUzQ0xFMFFDYkZXWEI5a2laYmlIaXl3eFN6Ky9JdGhz?= =?utf-8?B?WFp5SmhnTWpQS3BXTStrVU5EZkFzRWFwUHJkWTJVMUZJa3RwaURiUEc5ME1Z?= =?utf-8?B?Z3BGMWJnNXRhbkl3VzNjMWx5OVp4ajlJSEgybG5Hb3FzT0FDcEhvOHRNSHU5?= =?utf-8?B?M0ZPeWZQcGJTQXdHUEVWK1ZUb1FvZ1pnK3h3dnowMk1qR0hlWEp2QkpIOUpH?= =?utf-8?B?YkphNDZYRXpFbmhQSFJIWjlVckp3V1pvVUg3dGVQcmlweHFxRmhJSWRDM0w3?= =?utf-8?B?N25oVS9TSDJYMTdMek1kcHpuTjRRQ0FCNUtLaVc3d1hYNmRhSVV0dVE3SWxt?= =?utf-8?B?TXQ0eUR2MjhqWWpZdlRoYmcvSUNzdGlFa2ZjbFFlRk8rZDRnMzZGQjVlVDd6?= =?utf-8?B?c3dQc1JlbEl1c2dmMjJaZm9zRXVYSzMrWFRWUnZtbEpOVEhud2hMYUwyWHBq?= =?utf-8?B?R1RjYTFxWG5RR0h4SEk3dGg0MVVWMEVYck5WWG1qRllRNDF1WFFBYm02L1Rl?= =?utf-8?B?ZnphUitoT0F3Q3ZRT0lMdDZZVG5iMUM4RnJ1Qkp2Vlkxa0F5clRlSWVvdnBi?= =?utf-8?B?eXZvMi9aN1ZTY2lONmtRU0ptc21FbnZLRG1uNVpmSjVCUEQvejRQTkZUYWtx?= =?utf-8?B?YmtsUVdKNzhubGhhQUVJV3pSNU9FY09jN2oxeFhPUXJITzMxSUVUQjk5VEVH?= =?utf-8?B?bGVrbG5EZEZVQXdpYlA1SGFQOGdKeUprWm1KRGdhZzUzUzROU1pvelA2d1hH?= =?utf-8?B?ZC8rM0crZVo2SHEzcitPVEJrcWQ0TTdmckpUNjI1YXpjRlAyc2s3YnJ2bjJu?= =?utf-8?B?djVPY3lOTUluL2ZJVHRuWDVmQzNSdU1pRDk2ZllSalFrbDJUV0w2dkJiSVE0?= =?utf-8?B?V1hFTzRBdkNyRWRkUFdyMHpmUDU4VTZta0N0a0NzWUgrWGtpbVBkSWhSaXNk?= =?utf-8?B?RUZTWm9JUytyNEZYUFVXOFdHdXBBaERDMHFKZXJleEV2NUUzNWRuTDVKTEZT?= =?utf-8?B?S2lvSFlEaUh5K0t0SGpwWGtvVUhzdVpiT1R5T1NnMGVqd2hqdytaajJxVU5l?= =?utf-8?B?TVNOTCtscFFaMkY1Qld0MGdWOE0yS3VuQ0RBQ2Y0L3MyNklLQ2lTdDJaMzlB?= =?utf-8?B?YkRHOFI4QzJ0QkFiS1BFeGhLcjZBaEJFeTByMDRSVG0yWWNVQ011TzlOWFk2?= =?utf-8?B?U09lQ0c1RERubjVzblpUOTZySnhqcHNOUVFPWTNodWZVeGpDd2tqV1dEdlI1?= =?utf-8?Q?UT4Fe9FtJkCWn1mecqs+Ij+hCtRO6j9O4Qhnq2I?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_LO2P265MB039984221DC19ACEEA99A104C2799LO2P265MB0399GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f30d29b7-1446-4463-ad96-08d8f6dd326e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Apr 2021 20:15:16.6245 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: R9x7gNn8A2jc5CXCHFa5RL6/zGu4WQ7ojs+YrT0xLtq1jCaAv7M1LXY52Xb1ECk9dWNnH8czk6u7orrSiThb4AZ+w/MF6rDtQ2rMaGedOsI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P265MB4053 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:15:27 -0000 --_000_LO2P265MB039984221DC19ACEEA99A104C2799LO2P265MB0399GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T24gU2F0LCBBcHIgMywgMjAyMSBhdCAyMTowNSBFcmljIFJlc2NvcmxhIGVrckBydGZtLmNvbTxt YWlsdG86ZWtyQHJ0Zm0uY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiBJIGZpbmQgdGhpcyB0byBiZSBhIHNvbWV3 aGF0IHN1cnByaXNpbmcgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbi4gU3Vic2NyaWJpbmcgdG8gaWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZzxt YWlsdG86aWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZz4gc2VlbXMgbGlrZSBhYm91dCB0aGUgbGFzdCB0aGluZyBJIHdv dWxkIGFkdmlzZSBhIG5ldyBwYXJ0aWNpcGFudCB0byBkbyAtLSBhdCBsZWFzdCBpZiBJIHdhbnRl ZCB0aGVtIHRvIGNvbnRpbnVlIHRvIHBhcnRpY2lwYXRlDQoNClNvIHdoYXQgd291bGQgeW91IHN1 Z2dlc3QgdG8gaW1wcm92ZSB0aGUgd2F5IHRoYXQgaWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86aWV0ZkBp ZXRmLm9yZz4gd29ya3M/ICBIb3cgZWxzZSBjb3VsZCBjb21tdW5pdHkgaW50ZXJhY3Rpb25zIGJl IGltcHJvdmVkPyAgV2hhdCBlbHNlIGNhbiBiZSBkb25lIHRvIG1ha2UgaXQgZWFzaWVyIGZvciBw ZW9wbGUgdG8gYnJvYWRlbiB0aGVpciBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW9uPw0KDQpBbmRyZXcNCg== --_000_LO2P265MB039984221DC19ACEEA99A104C2799LO2P265MB0399GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTUgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPHN0eWxl PjwhLS0NCi8qIEZvbnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 IkNhbWJyaWEgTWF0aCI7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiA0IDUgMyA1IDQgNiAzIDIgNDt9DQpAZm9udC1m YWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNhbGlicmk7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiAxNSA1IDIgMiAyIDQgMyAy IDQ7fQ0KLyogU3R5bGUgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCnAuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBsaS5Nc29Ob3JtYWws IGRpdi5Nc29Ob3JtYWwNCgl7bWFyZ2luOjBjbTsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQt ZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIixzYW5zLXNlcmlmO30NCmE6bGluaywgc3Bhbi5Nc29IeXBlcmxpbmsN Cgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5Ojk5Ow0KCWNvbG9yOmJsdWU7DQoJdGV4dC1kZWNvcmF0aW9u OnVuZGVybGluZTt9DQpzcGFuLkVtYWlsU3R5bGUxOQ0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpwZXJzb25h bC1yZXBseTsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgljb2xvcjp3aW5k b3d0ZXh0O30NCi5Nc29DaHBEZWZhdWx0DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOmV4cG9ydC1vbmx5Ow0K CWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIixzYW5zLXNlcmlmOw0KCW1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdl OkVOLVVTO30NCkBwYWdlIFdvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtzaXplOjYxMi4wcHQgNzkyLjBwdDsNCglt YXJnaW46NzIuMHB0IDcyLjBwdCA3Mi4wcHQgNzIuMHB0O30NCmRpdi5Xb3JkU2VjdGlvbjENCgl7 cGFnZTpXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjE7fQ0KLS0+PC9zdHlsZT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28gOV0+PHhtbD4N CjxvOnNoYXBlZGVmYXVsdHMgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQiIHNwaWRtYXg9IjEwMjYiIC8+DQo8L3htbD48 IVtlbmRpZl0tLT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28gOV0+PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBlbGF5b3V0IHY6ZXh0 PSJlZGl0Ij4NCjxvOmlkbWFwIHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0IiBkYXRhPSIxIiAvPg0KPC9vOnNoYXBlbGF5 b3V0PjwveG1sPjwhW2VuZGlmXS0tPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0KPGJvZHkgbGFuZz0iRU4tR0IiIGxpbms9 ImJsdWUiIHZsaW5rPSJwdXJwbGUiIHN0eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdyYXA6YnJlYWstd29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2 IGNsYXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+T24gU2F0LCBBcHIg MywgMjAyMSBhdCAyMTowNSA8c3BhbiBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyI+RXJpYyBSZXNjb3JsYQ0KPGEgaHJl Zj0ibWFpbHRvOmVrckBydGZtLmNvbSI+ZWtyQHJ0Zm0uY29tPC9hPiA8L3NwYW4+d3JvdGU6PHNw YW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQ7bXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtbGFuZ3VhZ2U6RU4tVVMiPjxv OnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxkaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29O b3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+Jmd0OyBJIGZpbmQgdGhpcyB0byBiZSBhIHNvbWV3aGF0IHN1cnByaXNpbmcgc3Vn Z2VzdGlvbi4gU3Vic2NyaWJpbmcgdG8NCjxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzppZXRmQGlldGYub3JnIj5p ZXRmQGlldGYub3JnPC9hPiBzZWVtcyBsaWtlIGFib3V0IHRoZSBsYXN0IHRoaW5nIEkgd291bGQg YWR2aXNlIGEgbmV3IHBhcnRpY2lwYW50IHRvIGRvIC0tIGF0IGxlYXN0IGlmIEkgd2FudGVkIHRo ZW0gdG8gY29udGludWUgdG8gcGFydGljaXBhdGU8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRp dj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8 ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+U28gd2hhdCB3b3VsZCB5b3Ugc3VnZ2VzdCB0byBp bXByb3ZlIHRoZSB3YXkgdGhhdCA8YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86aWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZyI+DQppZXRm QGlldGYub3JnPC9hPiB3b3Jrcz8mbmJzcDsgSG93IGVsc2UgY291bGQgY29tbXVuaXR5IGludGVy YWN0aW9ucyBiZSBpbXByb3ZlZD8mbmJzcDsgV2hhdCBlbHNlIGNhbiBiZSBkb25lIHRvIG1ha2Ug aXQgZWFzaWVyIGZvciBwZW9wbGUgdG8gYnJvYWRlbiB0aGVpciBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW9uPzxvOnA+ PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZTox Mi4wcHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwi PjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij5BbmRyZXcgPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+ PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_LO2P265MB039984221DC19ACEEA99A104C2799LO2P265MB0399GBRP_-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 13:22:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35FC3A1390 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:22:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tcdud.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7KbfcpcEqnFh for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr140115.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.14.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490B93A138E for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:21:57 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=c19C3y3qcDG8E83OyGXotP1MSWKIwuNp7ACoAJdltWzqFse74AXJqBU7WdzGSUdMW2E6VOJg8G/3NPrOXjFyygPqHxN9JS3gFzARTplpmIQ64Dk8hcZaCdVCEs2ahyem2qMnGSc0p46CTYZ2AmaEB/c5eYT9/sBT2qK8I4QSt5OEPLtMY9JSmdD9sCYABVUrmNNAdYyE3Vb8frcDf27fIQ2935UHDkwbwNdZE4eDzDuvlCBk+upEEGp48B+tjeeMrEBOaJ6imPCHhc5DsYPoD1P7KvCeTt/qLHysrt40GfWkFdaUoRFF724EqaSmHHZ6Lv+WrGFILiNJOsjIPLHakQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ZuUjdQfE6JJCL23LAhLZ6pBpD+SrntgajvBpYOTNr/g=; b=doXxOgcOQlZnvnKX2ZGEKMVlR96Z1VxXNBl9a6MB0WLu4aFFRwyvuVuJb7U0t5lyCRPnW8I4CVVQwwOOO3LV1sjERA0jXN50+alysjOGFMyU3cJDbR7KXVsfz0EZbiirEGBEDFYw+sbeCVKZlXJ/wv+W7KPf2sx2r5EcEvNYWDw0d/4M/CL4eMTW7JTpDX6L62dRvLdG95eapgh2seuLneI4pCJKF/MgoL40ZEeR+J8hIyzoobJBDHZtIQ5U0w4Dm4+z7C1REuxxCaEGkGvrpwj93JoRFs5R9zhKroLuZ7V8fCOM/oZoAEh/BJ9OZXcV+XVg/+9AaGO0n44G/h0PWg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=TCDUD.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-TCDUD-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ZuUjdQfE6JJCL23LAhLZ6pBpD+SrntgajvBpYOTNr/g=; b=Z3CAu7VQAscSLSKZ7YpsJw5lx5a8v8rj2EbME/fJFa1AH7OBgFM+zR61LPFTiGGrpIHhYzvaMOr5oioGuUXxPoiFX2SngFuqgIpCQc9NMuY4ZKYR3LtuY8jM0jZzWGkndrmKysFlZ24FIJnl+5039Qyquy3ILO/oV2LOvHzPg5A= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB9PR02MB7388.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:242::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.29; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:21:52 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.029; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:21:52 +0000 To: Eric Rescorla , Rob Sayre Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <4dfc0034-e8ac-2b9c-2a22-a45449b4473c@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 21:21:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="kbWCp9kgVhduIV7ovSwV2W6vp3FhPuvj8" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:d55e:d7b4:fa0a:ee7b] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB8PR03CA0019.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:be::32) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:d55e:d7b4:fa0a:ee7b] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:d55e:d7b4:fa0a:ee7b) by DB8PR03CA0019.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:be::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.28 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:21:51 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 1d2e7639-fa58-4fd0-9d31-08d8f6de1dd2 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB9PR02MB7388: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:580; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(396003)(366004)(136003)(6486002)(83380400001)(5660300002)(235185007)(86362001)(44832011)(478600001)(52116002)(786003)(316002)(33964004)(186003)(31686004)(16526019)(53546011)(31696002)(21480400003)(38100700001)(54906003)(66946007)(66556008)(66476007)(66616009)(110136005)(2616005)(8936002)(36756003)(4326008)(8676002)(2906002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?ZGs5QkxpYmtvRjN0a1B2NTZLeU9hbFlXTnlXblRCL1VGQW44VlZHSnI1ZkMr?= =?utf-8?B?bnhrNnpCWlgzVFljbm1nUWd6QWhCZXlYSyt0aUZzVjZGQzBaVmFnWnJsZU1E?= =?utf-8?B?UEQrWkgybmZDb2FPc21yd2dlWDBqOGwzc2lpd2lHdGlkVFM5SXYwYnhIQjlE?= =?utf-8?B?eFptR3RGU1RJc2h6OFVZS0hvMzZ6bVRJRXlZSDExKys5R09TRXZJcm9KVHlE?= =?utf-8?B?dWxiNEZUcWUyVkdKV2tBcWxSQWJ5QnJEMTJsc2ZhVEJWcDluaTAxc1p4aS9x?= =?utf-8?B?TmE4YzRtUU4xSzM0R2ZvR1BkaEVlR0ovWE1SR3lxb0MzdE40UTVWOTUwU1Rz?= =?utf-8?B?QzFOUm5ORUEvZHZiMGxyYlVsbkp2OE9Qbk5QUldFOUNmWGZENXlLT2dBOXlR?= =?utf-8?B?VmVSTnorQW5MV3EzcmNNLzlWRHFSWENWbkxVQjdrNE4wTmlZQW81RUFRNnoz?= =?utf-8?B?RVhaRHFqQ253bWFra1pPeGhYalZWL2FKbFpSazNBODlBNzVMWUgwdVFPQlRa?= =?utf-8?B?NFZ3UWdHQ0hvZDMzNzZaTzVYNjNnYVdQZ2ljSTc3Rkx5R3ZzQkNrT2d6cXhn?= =?utf-8?B?cWNsdVI5SlcvMmtBVGVxS0JmWWQ2dis3emhuRzlEN3dPSlNOTXRodi9UTkVQ?= =?utf-8?B?alV6UU9lOVFvZDdwWlhBNGdkVXRDczlZTnFaclZlSU1nUllSNFFwRk9NTDdp?= =?utf-8?B?dXZhemlTUldGYTArL3BsdlRtbEV5bWZiQ2NtV2pwSndYODdZY0pIdkdIWkJy?= =?utf-8?B?RWRaNS9Vdk1ONkRuQjltckVvc1A0OS91Nnc4V3VMWGRhQVovaFFXbUR1M0JW?= =?utf-8?B?N1lReTVNdXhNOWdnVENmS2NGeENaQW5QKyt4Q3d1ZVV5eVpQV3I4Qnk1T0cv?= =?utf-8?B?V2xsRjdUR3BtRnZZMkthNXFvaysxWHNCTVh5Z3Rnd1l3UUtmUTNsemZtUmZv?= =?utf-8?B?UlZPVm52cmhHekNnUkNDZVczV0xZWTlwYVhiNnRZeGVUN3JSc3NvOFRrWllW?= =?utf-8?B?L0QyMGdyanBIRU1oOWZFVkcrMTgrTTZSaGNjYVFNQmtHaHh2ZHpER3pUVjdY?= =?utf-8?B?WFpsUHJIY3F5R3ljZmk5akFrQlhiMzdYeHBwZjNWSFlMQ3lDRDVTaklOa2V5?= =?utf-8?B?cHdONVd4YXNRaDhJZFRrMUU4cFJyaUxsWmR3UlFFeFJmU0RqemYxZnB3WlhH?= =?utf-8?B?cE56VHlkSGhwNmhraWUzMzQwOXFSZHNzY3pmNmNuczVGcTN5V2RkZVB3bXM1?= =?utf-8?B?QVYwL24rbEs2dFRFY1lVYzQ2U29pSFk4ZUt6ZmF6Lzc0RWhldzR5bER6WHRG?= =?utf-8?B?Y3NaRC9MYVVJbCtkRENORjVxMkZSZUZMUWtTWStHVXRxYVdxVXdzb1gvSzJ4?= =?utf-8?B?SU1Nc05ydk1iTWtUS0xwdDhTcXhEemFvd0F4d016RjRZbHltQWR4T1FxRHVD?= =?utf-8?B?VEl1czNPTTh1a2s1RkFvOStrZjNCeTJZT3U3UTgxWUduOFk4aXBjTG1rN2NB?= =?utf-8?B?aVRvSDBZeVdMMG4wbTRzVmNvNHVPZk1Ud1VqTFdKcFFSemtDeVhEWktwbTFM?= =?utf-8?B?OUJUdFF1eHB3YWVmN0RUK2dnL3dtRUJTNlB1bUtFaFVkWWZucUdFdUlDQUh4?= =?utf-8?B?a0kvMmVHT1FsQWhQYjJNQnNLRTFkTlNqdERSQlU1dnA0S0NjenhGSHhqcTRT?= =?utf-8?B?dlNzOS92WjNCUDZyUTBIenpCQmFOUzRqLzI0eDdqdjVNTXZUU2N0TWNHbVQr?= =?utf-8?B?UjJCNFJmbGlTZGhGMW5VZXJrTld2bUxoMVBpeEdGbkd2Z0VXSmlSNjFpTWlE?= =?utf-8?B?T1lMZ0o0QkoxVWVXWTZqblU0QWhzOW9DdUNGblJuK29jN0xwZHRXdnJleFdq?= =?utf-8?Q?KRmz7jj1Whhwi?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1d2e7639-fa58-4fd0-9d31-08d8f6de1dd2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2021 20:21:51.9677 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 15zQ3FIwRgFFDIS3a89G/4eqkTGaQUsxy5F5lRQmMy5TCxWIWpBtJJ0Y0wGhjElt X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB9PR02MB7388 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:22:02 -0000 --kbWCp9kgVhduIV7ovSwV2W6vp3FhPuvj8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="P77viBcuWIIT58i81fSTWjulXoDRwz4q1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla , Rob Sayre Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <4dfc0034-e8ac-2b9c-2a22-a45449b4473c@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: --P77viBcuWIIT58i81fSTWjulXoDRwz4q1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------48C37C91A8F06AC372E2B451" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------48C37C91A8F06AC372E2B451 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I don't at all agree with ekr as to how bad the current state of affairs with ietf@ietf is... On 03/04/2021 21:03, Eric Rescorla wrote: > - Much more active moderation onietf@ietf.org, with the intent of > significantly reducing the level of acrimony and endless arguments. I do think the above would be a good thing - not moderation to censor but to encourage better discussion. Mind you, it's hard to think of a less appealing task to ask someone to take on in an IETF context, so I don't know if that's really feasible;-) S. --------------48C37C91A8F06AC372E2B451 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------48C37C91A8F06AC372E2B451-- --P77viBcuWIIT58i81fSTWjulXoDRwz4q1-- --kbWCp9kgVhduIV7ovSwV2W6vp3FhPuvj8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmBozl4FAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+oO KRAAntQkVuiPnjm7/YqQ8yo1PbiWsg6kw0z8jBZqMzty2X4uU2wQBPteZ6iRKr8znKhoQhtg0GvV hB6XeF6jWidDkLj8Q8g+0y37ykKlLJjKkvpF2a9+ka00tt9Lj8vve9FR9ake2aNDeI0gGsY4y5l7 I7CxI7RLKqPTd+ScSa+XTgIja0pILDHhy/K4QPGYqR3jkx7C3ysoKWuxOTE9IRGnHiR1Ix9hylWR +rPAG65ICEIi9ygBYTSUGD2UheIZtNndwV5bW3RSK2NOmuRvgnhabxJm1A8wluPaXWROCNxMjtdy v+32+mdFPm/VAAD7iBKKM84SmqIOaziE9/3uMTOvKkU6TazuclR+yH1x8LG3ufB6m3sME0xVvHMP vAcIlJYBVV3T5h+mg5n7puk56FUspFMRGw7dPmW+hkzdN65rzuNMTdqKmFDYiC0bqexO9bXgGv5D 8XqEq8m3fR7gWzwkZacLlUlq921IQJrUSwFBuBihcdT2RdVTZrm5OyVSehUDRSM4NiPMCzd1Sa5Z uOmIYsr1oDVCQTYNqnxrJOpvSwveo75+mU9GMJd/Usj0/9ckoIjDtwPbAUHqdvtHMTjXgxy9qWyT Rywg6Zd4+0pF6bf0yzOLlcjMILFaAVd7Nny3tTDiNuIuQ4VL4IAOPqsNctM+0vZfwxM0OGBGlSHC Y/M= =5G3T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --kbWCp9kgVhduIV7ovSwV2W6vp3FhPuvj8-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 13:30:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA9D3A13D1 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:29:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s3Y-sn0DGydh for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88A5B3A13D3 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id x17so8483753iog.2 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 13:29:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fLxH9Ce8S76IBnV2qlbM1MpC6VnjQ/FyK5mU1kefHSc=; b=BTzNgMqyRFZvQMzisgP/7uyyMsCDm0JCt1JnyHTtd3k2XtI+a44KtfCm3SvnTe3Ugy ihPbnNuI+PmsNzUYXxwh4rhlS5daGwJoeXnma3uu/a25rqZDoFC7hj8qpMWrH6N5jzst 1gjEvWAA2la4fONkqQWPWhzuGNvuczCa6J0p4JApQxP52//PwcgMAx9ccqLugpkcpJXs 6F8zKZlSylaL2/sJkQgAxsOIfe5hdBdRnWoKgZYL9GdTN4rFZEsIwoT6GVt+fMvnLdbn s/qYAFNeZHXDvJu7f6/MDKtFpQqStZDJ1j876/goAm283jgBreyUnapaXDwBIrs1heCY BZRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fLxH9Ce8S76IBnV2qlbM1MpC6VnjQ/FyK5mU1kefHSc=; b=D4vkV2R/YjvfnbnJD6zrX3QLuf8005d6WcVFSPLk+p1Ehv0Oq5ogMojWnHqxt4R0BF wo+QADvol++sezkMxS30BTavCWOdioJPbc4MKwWwiRUvrtGgqn+aktCjFTuLK8w9EB0y G4Hr8CrebhykAKwV4uvHMWHT9QD/Nqj9YaCnDPwFHmF4juHIQyyvEimhRUheGJkgUr9M xvF58pcutM2+K6ckiswjIpAgsA15tlgoevTc8ezog1CbdlI6k2Ivz4I+s2zptzmkpamj cO3ZxYYt4qekm5h5IipEuHgYBffmbJEeQRpiHJ+7kkNkbKizY00zEt1FzIZRVumT684g dnsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5315nVGxGbfbIuWJ+ME2qCr1JDtu4rJwE2fHVr+cywN49M/4e1J4 kB+y5YdqVoDEjUYUyovkR+GG5FZZ0jsg6gL17QM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyPEyqUOUC/3kA/O8GMtgJf7Vv51goWt2Nnk4Be5tGRPjSH+P3rtYP5c+uBTfHV7uagiwQMvt3yFy5XTyHSsPQ= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:c809:: with SMTP id y9mr15256690iol.192.1617481792720; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 13:29:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <4dfc0034-e8ac-2b9c-2a22-a45449b4473c@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <4dfc0034-e8ac-2b9c-2a22-a45449b4473c@cs.tcd.ie> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:29:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Eric Rescorla , "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000af91f005bf17537c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:29:59 -0000 --000000000000af91f005bf17537c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:21 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > While I don't at all agree with ekr as to how bad the current > state of affairs with ietf@ietf is... > I think people usually post that irritating picture of the plane with bullet holes at this point. :) > On 03/04/2021 21:03, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > - Much more active moderation onietf@ietf.org, with the intent of > > significantly reducing the level of acrimony and endless arguments. > > I do think the above would be a good thing - not moderation > to censor but to encourage better discussion. > It wouldn't be censorship--people are free to post their thoughts elsewhere. They're not entitled to the IETF list's audience. > Mind you, it's hard to think of a less appealing task to > ask someone to take on in an IETF context, so I don't > know if that's really feasible;-) > Yeah, I don't oppose efforts to make things better, along the lines of what EKR and Eliot suggest. But I am skeptical that anyone will want to do this task, and I am not sure what's worth saving, now that a lot of the technical / last-call discussion has been carved off. That's how I arrived at my so-far unpopular proposal. thanks, Rob --000000000000af91f005bf17537c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:21 PM Stephen Fa= rrell <stephen.farrell@cs.t= cd.ie> wrote:

While I don't at all agree with ekr as to how bad the current
state of affairs with ietf@ietf is...

I= think people usually post that irritating picture of the plane with bullet= holes at this point. :)
=C2=A0
onietf@ietf.org, with the intent of
> significantly reducing the level of acrimony and endless arguments.
I do think the above would be a good thing - not moderation
to censor but to encourage better discussion.

It wouldn't be censorship--people are free to post their thought= s elsewhere. They're not entitled to the IETF list's audience.
=C2=A0
Mind you, it's hard to think of a less appealing task to
ask someone to take on in an IETF context, so I don't
know if that's really feasible;-)

Y= eah, I don't oppose efforts to make things better, along the lines of w= hat EKR and Eliot suggest. But I am skeptical that anyone will want to do t= his task, and I am not sure what's worth saving,=C2=A0now that a=C2=A0l= ot of the=C2=A0technical / last-call discussion has been carved off. That&#= 39;s how I arrived at my so-far unpopular proposal.

thanks,
Rob
--000000000000af91f005bf17537c-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 13:39:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187003A1435 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:39:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jhxahCWd3GX7 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EC613A1432 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id j26so3302824iog.13 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 13:39:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XKffyeVjULOb5LRO8tjxJ8ysg9yJde6RhBrK3XZ/XwI=; b=ZmRTdz89vPHnz2PieaRILEOecItalaFmu6SBH1VzIFCFanVfaPR3+3yB7GEE4XkPRb p8GC7D0yU8Xvs3bv3pY/cZlgR26oFkvXXUgDZ9NOX8HO6pGiUZN+20TMYyqtKxUgVLGn lsSOfbX1h3D2pDUMnhPpfpvaLSd4X3F2a6Gn5pG7c58cHabt0tlLxv195jFu0WIy5SzD uvLi/HQGc7QD/1fRNveFhJRwvVd31mz8TXWdGdM9LGnM8vrBU8tFqkWez5nPZ2HFCciC tfQRaNMZ/U1tX8B3rP0J7J6ZRuQ69M7J+9kOVyBgOBTSmlLIs8yvTa7gojeafU1GRlHW FYuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XKffyeVjULOb5LRO8tjxJ8ysg9yJde6RhBrK3XZ/XwI=; b=Alfu5X2aKUUeoCPKyyPAG6782RBQL2V2Xs/sgpygvYhGUcz7r1Ql+qSaksfwpbZVHE Fw6UYvlc/DQulyByi+1TKZKjT+dMi5z4KRC7QhWbptjSSvpqLzXT4kJX3TIB+KO/3YpW wUKGOz/QNCHlt+Vrl5ABNKgIpaB/ebcpT1+pIDIR1d906FVN2PjGZF5QN+sUJt9DT38A o7bL7ptYrwVyjqjb1zqBj2cB9puHTMjj/FimCPrXXW8AKOxl/Xd2pwzdA37HQoDztBR4 b9Q9UsDXqg/W9bWf73H2+VsvuX55+Yh2EttRgkVlyWSKBILDeILB+cTRILEF3kQMIRer kwTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530OjLnPlVv6CQ4nLpbQriaRj62WRPmVlpIDNYbYA/zaMKpvyBng 32lSgks42dkqRC0p4wwRjBVCdbmw5u8EiARLxqGWlw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJznFDaRVqNxCFLGzDes0l13Bp8fE7DUpH1ow6cZU/ovh21m63LGagCCC4XPImxuqwa2Ddxa6KPxrjGddW5y5wo= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c8ce:: with SMTP id q14mr1767617jao.135.1617482354705; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 13:39:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:38:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Andrew Campling Cc: Stephen Farrell , "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002edb7705bf177577" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:39:21 -0000 --0000000000002edb7705bf177577 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:15 PM Andrew Campling wrote: > On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 21:05 Eric Rescorla ekr@rtfm.com wrote: > > > > > I find this to be a somewhat surprising suggestion. Subscribing to > ietf@ietf.org seems like about the last thing I would advise a new > participant to do -- at least if I wanted them to continue to participate > > > > So what would you suggest to improve the way that ietf@ietf.org works? > Perhaps our emails crossed in transit. I think the primary thing would be for more active moderation, with the moderators given fairly wide discretion to maintain order. How else could community interactions be improved? What else can be done > to make it easier for people to broaden their participation? > > Well, I don't really think of the ietf@ietf.org list as much of an example of broad participation. Rather, it's a generalized discussion list that in my experience mostly is a source of pointless arguing. In my experience most of the broad participation happens in smaller venues, for instance in IAB workshops or when people from one area do work in/with another area. -Ekr --0000000000002edb7705bf177577 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:15 PM Andrew= Campling <andrew.campling@419.consulting> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 21:05 Er= ic Rescorla ekr@rtfm.com w= rote:

=C2=A0

> I find this to be a somewhat surprising suggest= ion. Subscribing to ietf@ietf.org seems = like about the last thing I would advise a new participant to do -- at leas= t if I wanted them to continue to participate

=C2=A0

So what would you suggest to improve the way that ietf@ietf.org works?=C2=A0


Perhaps our emails crossed in transit. I think the p= rimary thing would be for more active moderation, with the moderators given= fairly wide discretion to maintain order.


How else could community interacti= ons be improved?=C2=A0 What else can be done to make it easier for people t= o broaden their participation?


Well, I don't real= ly think of the ietf@iet= f.org list as much of an example of broad participation. Rather, it'= ;s a generalized discussion list that in my experience mostly is a source o= f pointless arguing.

In my experience most of = the broad participation happens in smaller venues, for instance in IAB work= shops or when people from one area do work in/with another area.
=
-Ekr

--0000000000002edb7705bf177577-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 15:58:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878E73A1A38 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:58:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 61JKs90RbA6y for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C8833A1A36 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id h3so1050142pfr.12 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 15:58:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=z0aGJU+g6d+c8+VhdJlI/edhhGh8jRxn31xD5zZblEk=; b=iCwWUm5XDLAC531ZHBp/k5zDEoHaTUBz2DauWOG6Xbp00cqZVAkWNO49TIl2fY7S6F +GFBhRurhJjfRm+fswv4/uXEdL3KsN7botQz2oY0/kl4KM15sF9tdpSLv80p+NqaHlQq gCWWRmFnW4jf7gaZalVKmUGHVtsYsgSDqwmP8JXdJXVTUfdRLBLDveeL8hwgvoppabnv 6y9dorBbAvFJlbqhEyc48uZ8trOu5NynWWZQBBLxlS3ZVyfvLlNASxEBJAOR+TdrHcTb WijwSaRHdmungBmMDwH5u9e1Fg8r1fEttJhJeLPLU4EsqG2Bb7gmNse3cTgI1UKGla14 hXMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=z0aGJU+g6d+c8+VhdJlI/edhhGh8jRxn31xD5zZblEk=; b=JCktXOzhpKVCcliW+g2WD9deNbPlM21cPQTSOKQJdloS9axT2cUl+sM2KQbsDlmkfo mEs5/XaXjk2Z0q0M+hmydDrmrwiHq5FLXsY/J19/HHaI9WpH1rd4UoKzZ7qJh8+wpFzN JOcSICUht5e1Hycv1USh28pVKZsEKN6PG7Gnuep8ARpIQwenw333TtI0reGux1MTfX7L 8iATR0IxQmkNGAOJ8h/syBeGolJkPLsxlteSUWQkbTd6SRtmnrcRcydwD3OoW+wSnIBI oeEIQdcddaMGNzylQirO971EpSNrdwnEdfKqOGPqeDMr2S+DoNWUEVWZpZqOemA7u0Bp Ofwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531D+S/h+we7m4kLbbRy8b497GYkw76grNwfxZP/lUG9KbFo2eDP v8VJDhvmqwXyRSvtZGxnogXO2z81dgI42Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwJlrv1o7isSVP4qPGAfuuLsKZ8GDAuxzu3TntxClULj+UGLYnVW3EVJgGJTHRIgpx593hRgg== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:96aa:0:b029:222:4029:7408 with SMTP id g10-20020aa796aa0000b029022240297408mr17876586pfk.74.1617490690685; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y13sm4090941pgs.93.2021.04.03.15.58.08 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 03 Apr 2021 15:58:09 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <125fe7d6-d90f-9ba8-7dba-f75ea4f04b1d@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 10:58:05 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 22:58:17 -0000 On 04-Apr-21 04:54, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Kyle, >=20 >> I don't have the long history of IETF involvement that you do, but kno= wing many of the old-timers I am not at all surprised. >=20 >=20 > Since I=E2=80=99ve been part of the party since 1988, I think it=E2=80=99= s time for a change. But I would rather it not be hasty (I feel one of T= olkien=E2=80=99s Ents saying that). >=20 > Opportunity for all to express a point of view is important in order to= produce the best work, but the IETF list has the added challenge of bein= g quite general and cross-cutting in nature, and that means that things t= end to meander into the weeds. >=20 > Simply shutting down the IETF list, however, leaves us less of a commun= ity. We need to figure out how to evolve a plenary function, and we shou= ld be thinking about all the modalities and tooling available to us. >=20 > Rather than view this as a complete negative, I suggest that we take th= is as a challenge to find an industry-leading way to improve overall deci= sion making and discourse in an environment where rough consensus matters= , without us getting too=E2=80=A6 rough. >=20 > Let=E2=80=99s not just allow for new possibilities here; let=E2=80=99s = seek them. Not against that, but please let us first clearly understand the purposes= (plural) of such plenary discussions and the problems and benefits of th= e current solution. I think the last 40 years have shown that whether the medium for a discus= sion is a Usenet newsgroup, a majordomo mailing list, or this new-fangled= thing called "the Web", the underlying sociology and risks of time-wasti= ng and abuse are much the same. So is the tension between moderation and = freedom of expression. So a change of technology is certainly not guarant= eed to improve things. Regards Brian From nobody Sat Apr 3 16:35:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 182763A1B73 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 16:35:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nHKlDGvDOmHX for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 16:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E16A23A1B71 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 16:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QR00HRTVHIT1C@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 18:35:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QR00028WHFR98@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 16:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Sat, 03 Apr 2021 16:33:28 -0700 Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 16:35:15 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: Rob Sayre Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <18887e2c-3e58-70b9-9273-4da315dcb58e@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6f9kxsAotlitZeB9+fyRdg)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210330a] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 23:35:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_6f9kxsAotlitZeB9+fyRdg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT On 4/2/21 8:19 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > I agree with this email: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/sYAyAB4z_V71fYFhJ3Wc1_GoPic/ >   Then unsubscribe and you won't have to worry about it any more.   Problem solved!   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_6f9kxsAotlitZeB9+fyRdg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

On 4/2/21 8:19 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:

  Then unsubscribe and you won't have to worry about it any more.

  Problem solved!

  Dan.

-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_6f9kxsAotlitZeB9+fyRdg)-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 17:18:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9F73A1D30 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 17:18:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QNPOgWmgx90H for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 17:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 568823A1D31 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 17:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id j26so3586664iog.13 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 17:18:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qXzdVEQ7SZDgNeEU/PWTyDUl/seZfa4WFNZpL1YdwhY=; b=nZJVeWgD7I21p2wcDVJJNIduR4xFaeJpmpdSmewa4tuY7NXQccWLGp0hTLkbruWarq zB6WSyQTkaG1tGpRsy5NzW/tuvBxnewPnlyKAx/vawnNjlze0daoh6m8HBzavX9kbfbs 3mak4qM1wzwZyVQq/yln7GJPiB5kRJbhwJbLFR3B/VuBJl2gPzKYevtmoKVLQgTArP9w 7KkDvHsioU16FUAQqr5RTb1mDk4JcP2hAsHOvxSibPsrkeTsGd7GUPcJyjSq3SLG/n1n 6m8193QytwnlWJ7xDhdU+/ojFNAoL285Penabu9Me2BiJe3CeO048M8EzKftEMczW52T wYwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qXzdVEQ7SZDgNeEU/PWTyDUl/seZfa4WFNZpL1YdwhY=; b=rMk+osvpS4DbTY8SzDYTqCyCc3X5rArHrUf2Ymx/kcYwbLt2CAEfrkKOHGI42pOTpz C8K4Rcu3TmKu66e93LRggAJQ7S/l9vDB45dViQ2ScTAwiXAMCwNyFMuRFFra04d5tFDg Hpwp0YZdSFRqVDgZR3uDOfnFfEU51Oo1LJwo1et/WYAbciQal6nScgEZYnS/knAl/Gw5 WKpzrqlgwVryWCi1LoTk57Lzsm+rCL9NmaUwxFu4XGtppoN9dV3wBKzyYMfrKZ075sOG zwW2xaP0vDKv16oTCwhWkwN4//Be2bv8cOmm4LfN5cKjVrrTBNugHGfI9vcqI5tyvHBT DI7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532qObbjrMYbXZM4m3D1bhPkePoOQiapoH4KAGkBqc2i3ZLX02IZ PqsXjdy9OPA1DBEjzxigkEyxymkINw+1dn1dsss= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRT/HrsWIL/02ORfXvOl9XmegkLCDiexBNaawetuzEmvj6RI4Lwi+cO10VpvBjfFNKI563xydMX6NgoFmoBYM= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:89d9:: with SMTP id a25mr15510504iot.69.1617495506781; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 17:18:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 17:18:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001b8afc05bf1a8584" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 00:18:34 -0000 --0000000000001b8afc05bf1a8584 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:39 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Well, I don't really think of the ietf@ietf.org list as much of an > example of broad participation. Rather, it's a generalized discussion list > that in my experience mostly is a source of pointless arguing. > >From looking at this list's web archive, rather than what makes it through my mail filters, I can see this phenomenon has been illustrated yet again. thanks, Rob --0000000000001b8afc05bf1a8584 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:39 PM Eric Resco= rla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


Well, I don't real= ly think of the ietf@iet= f.org list as much of an example of broad participation. Rather, it'= ;s a generalized discussion list that in my experience mostly is a source o= f pointless arguing.
=C2=A0
Fr= om looking at this list's web archive, rather than what makes it throug= h my mail filters, I can see this phenomenon has been illustrated yet again= .

thanks,
Rob
--0000000000001b8afc05bf1a8584-- From nobody Sat Apr 3 20:09:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DCD3A1108 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:09:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0mRxjmnRYh_J for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5557B3A1101 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13495C0078 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 23:09:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 03 Apr 2021 23:09:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=1Q5tO0V6Ny67ayhdbtI5M3NUGJpY8VUVUecOT3JnD 6A=; b=E1zkDNhz/sUFl8anMMbi10IFW6XiIXyxHpDk73ApVk8c0Ns1+/foELn0U GQkFGtvddZFrHTyZY40IJHdTEycj8FznbypkDeaZakqh4IucMfPv3HqL4/k+RQdd ZcctuzWHrvmbcegxUCULXf7gobd4wy+uEGucbqF/Dc4dSyDEg7mjBZ3/FkYqhDWz 4UBEr96eZQN7iS3OGmFzBCWZrZTauNqRnW5zMhE3u9ykJy+cQvWMfF5ZKs7IQoit Sz6QxIKDZHam8CIrULRmoKgNlRjKsY7FTRyx512hQggx4zBk1qbAmd3dIUpahdE0 TdOJKrPS2d6UCIpNxJmF1zFrw3Sjw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudeiledgieelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.118] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 275DC1080063 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 23:09:38 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 23:09:37 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 03:09:48 -0000 On 4/3/21 4:03 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > From my perspective, a lot of the problem is not so much that the list > is general, but that it is largely unmoderated. Long painful > experience shows that communities need tending if they are not to > descend into a toxic mess, and moderation is an important part of that > tending. In my opinion, such "moderating" as has been done in recent years by IETF leadership has contributed to making the IETF a considerably more toxic place.   A community in which dissenting views are suppressed, or in which the leadership believes it has the right to squash criticism, cannot credibly claim that it is a consensus-making body. Keith From nobody Sat Apr 3 20:32:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9753A1205 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:32:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QIWhj__sXFSa for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09CAF3A1203 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id kr3-20020a17090b4903b02900c096fc01deso4273511pjb.4 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:32:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XlP98aBvDXzn+OZh7bFrLLi7+bdUZP/JBpcS7SoFiWM=; b=LuWn5IrKzloSCzkMncIXBwX8/G9Am2cYntxpC05IILuOXf+0XuGI8jG5nn3f/lxWCU bW26tfMcgQUeVKKF9Flkp46OogDGwcvmxrhwvZYEf7EpRM3NJig6EoMazwZr25U2G+17 1R7L0cqgzXS+bQc+sVSmeWMNscN6fOr3EXIWkw0Wl+lr+niwm8rlUUquNKsIMhRDokzn 3W/7E93bXCdo/ewXLVNwitjRAWGBIby7SOPQfhoR93dKHNSHVJqVGgYThqK48+cX09E2 1CeUZ3EqU3FV2/UeSx+ex30XCZyBdOmOxnCJqlXBkCutEVdWiCo6otXa2zStqwL3X5O4 RkJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=XlP98aBvDXzn+OZh7bFrLLi7+bdUZP/JBpcS7SoFiWM=; b=SDCOABjVwfBG5EWLeblHKQDF/xp1oMkyLKmel2l/a1gKuNQzdiOAYa6mStPbZu2SU4 gz4WAhCg66zNf1OpnMXH0n+QNuTLcsJPDyjDd+kfoJo2clmnSHcoKIycXiLeuGKy+wVQ WO1wGWeeM8EFxQlKjWW2m1q+YdN4bHQflI30CteXyQA+LElL14hqiKISKKEhqANn7aA0 QGx/Lweu9G2QAVRUFmpWddLxpGBKTm2Pu33KUAFBsERPVVtVNWycSgrpLS+exfaCHCt/ 57k0C5miC6u1faFbGGknQ9DVREUbZ5Oo5GVbVwHtA9fWE2RlXSQL4oRl1FHwN3iuaD1E dugg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533OSistuw8YL3qhOySHbKgaFNUA9GnVe/o4g9xHGq908YCaVtnJ Xr6CX8q9IbWa8ijFF4ineJRoTgcrRIYC1A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxibuRyX4EKIv0sXRimTIPNetUcvhSZB4Silm+bw6Fz/XuG8PN2exII2yLn4Da1eiU32j135A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:780c:b029:e7:11a4:8106 with SMTP id p12-20020a170902780cb02900e711a48106mr18582728pll.57.1617507170241; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y8sm11251503pjb.11.2021.04.03.20.32.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:32:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0e35e268-aab6-042a-665f-a8709a2366c2@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 15:32:45 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 03:32:57 -0000 On 04-Apr-21 15:09, Keith Moore wrote: > On 4/3/21 4:03 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >> >> From my perspective, a lot of the problem is not so much that the list= =20 >> is general, but that it is largely unmoderated. Long painful=20 >> experience shows that communities need tending if they are not to=20 >> descend into a toxic mess, and moderation is an important part of that= =20 >> tending. >=20 > In my opinion, such "moderating" as has been done in recent years by=20 > IETF leadership has contributed to making the IETF a considerably more = > toxic place.=C2=A0=C2=A0 A community in which dissenting views are supp= ressed, or=20 > in which the leadership believes it has the right to squash criticism, = > cannot credibly claim that it is a consensus-making body. Keith, I think you need to show your working... since the list archive is open, we have data. Certainly there is a case for ensuring that the moderation or sergeant at arms activity is performed in a way that is accountable to the community. If there's evidence that moderation has been used inappropriat= ely, let's discuss it. The list charter (BCP 45 =3D RFC 3005) says that compl= aints can be addressed to the IAB. Has that ever happened? We certainly haven't seen a PR Action for a long time now. (For anyone who doesn't know, that's a community process for revoking posting rights in extreme cases; see BCP 83 =3D RFC 3683.) Regards Brian From nobody Sat Apr 3 20:57:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52693A1315 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BO0yuJRXCdL1 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 169703A1313 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDAE5C008F; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 23:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 03 Apr 2021 23:56:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=9DT11ZU3Oc25VSLXBC4go732HY5+BsGawXu333Dzo uQ=; b=RGLdbqWv5hb8z8KrOHfYr/U93Ub7K6jRGBKL/cJrXqr22BG2pEnALe30w sCr79yU6TPciFOnGiyALfWWe1YgrYGhqamUn2zK73EQG0k7iCi3KXNigsF+0adM0 JIa+cCKeL/v0gMkaPVp1aDZgV2Qd8GvVA8YSwGX7pVU6eCPj/Q0PCggxJO/h5nS0 SGqy26+OTk/cwblzrkFmEPajjypEpDcpAGj0sdLl1mE+74t7hFGdlztlzs1S9Z1+ njRtzBNMLNXrZIwLqtyxOTBVpIvdR8hwC6C7+boAHhYXQkjEORs5AqqIJiEmEDal OrC5vxPuVQKl3MPWR3OSDrpTVjPDg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudeiledgjeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgfefgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeef leelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.118] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3B2B61080054; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 23:56:55 -0400 (EDT) To: Brian E Carpenter , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <0e35e268-aab6-042a-665f-a8709a2366c2@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <6f72fbba-8b94-a5fc-6e27-67b23dc865d9@network-heretics.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 23:56:55 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0e35e268-aab6-042a-665f-a8709a2366c2@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 03:57:04 -0000 On 4/3/21 11:32 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Keith, I think you need to show your working... since the list archive > is open, we have data. Given that a lot of the pushback seems to have occurred in private messages, I don't know how much the list archives could help.  But that pushback can still have a chilling effect and undermine trust in those who evaluate our work (if they are also entrusted with deciding which or whose input gets discouraged). It's been suggested to me that the moderators should not take direction from the IETF Chair or IESG, but only from specific criteria that have been approved by IETF Consensus.   IMO this would be a positive step. Keith From nobody Sat Apr 3 21:27:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34AC3A1458 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 21:27:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cZ1aIgCppvKt for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 21:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE4473A1456 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 21:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941C75C0073 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 00:27:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 04 Apr 2021 00:27:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=nBVk65rhgYVFkyXFG1hDlTKhzPh/JcwqmCB65CtOb yc=; b=AXLtH6Qdcuerk+OPtHuO50llvTUBES968MZdkgzKIH15s1oqvgYm6Qv6L 2IqA74H3f4xUmzG8B7STF9lpUn0I3hc0IYngS0M6V8CWbUEYVvBctCeto3UbRdI3 MmjmdhKPY4plD+GvscGhVhleWUby1KoblpajmBbjf9X1heD4pGTfVo1UShpgbE1s qt5MKkiLCkxBQh/VQWQNtjBOJTVcjQDBbwk+SeT/nSMLeAmwOEmI9XB8ZZ+dvvqB k9ohvfuvGj88jy0W4wwG4Jg0aAaXVkPd8jLBRDZqwlfltx/jRIJFS4mD5TTuqo3X gCRMyK2VCsZ5dFlHVCqi9034AgJGA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudeiledgkeeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.118] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 44C81108005C for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 00:27:32 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <072e17a2-17bf-c46d-0131-82a4b9ef3ab8@network-heretics.com> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 00:27:30 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 04:27:39 -0000 On 4/3/21 12:54 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Rather than view this as a complete negative, I suggest that we take this as a challenge to find an industry-leading way to improve overall decision making and discourse in an environment where rough consensus matters, without us getting too… rough. I have been wondering for awhile whether some enhancements to our means of distributing email to subscribers could yield a better experience for ietf@ in particular and perhaps other lists also. Imagine that instead of the list simply sending every message to every subscriber, the list could do per-subscriber filtering according to each subscriber's preferences.   Then a reader who got tired of a certain thread could press a "Don't show me any more messages from this thread" button.  The messages would still be archived so they wouldn't be inaccessible to the reader, but the reader wouldn't be interrupted by seeing such messages arrive or need to bother with deleting. Another possible enhancement would allow a subscriber to follow a thread as it moved from one list to another.   That way, discussions could easily be taken off the "main" list of a particular group and moved to a "side" list.   So when, say, the ietf@ list gets into discussions between a small number of people, the moderator could say "take it off the ietf@ list and report back to us if/when you have reached some sort of agreement".   The discussion could move seamlessly (anyone who had contributed to the thread would automatically start seeing the side list traffic), and anyone else who wanted to follow that traffic could also watch those messages (or stop watching them) with a single button click.   Everything would still get archived with topics retained in the message headers. (really, "lists" in this environment become more like "topics") Another possible enhancement might be "remove me from replies to this thread".   The list software would then remove that subscriber from to/cc headers of messages from that thread that are posted to the list.   This wouldn't keep readers from doing "reply all" to messages they had already received, but it would reduce the number of replies sent to recipients who no longer wanted to be in a particular discussion. Another possible enhancement would be "upvote" / "downvote" in response to a particular message from a list, and readers would see the number of upvotes and downvotes when they (re)read the message from the list or read it in the archive.   This would reduce the number of messages posted for no other reason than to say "+1".   (I've implemented this using tags to point to images of the respective vote counts.   The results certainly weren't perfect, especially since many MUAs don't display images by default, but seemed potentially useful.) One of the main problems with email in general is that it has become the default dumping ground for messages of dubious or marginal relevance from numerous sources.  This isn't just spam but also status messages, reminder messages, "you got a message on this other service (but we won't tell you what it is)" messages, you need to change your password, your disk storage is over quota, etc.   The overall interrupt overhead is too high.  So every extraneous message becomes that much more annoying.  Reducing the number of extraneous messages while still keeping the reader in control of what they see seems like a good idea. I think the hardest part of implementing something like this is that it has to take as input a lot of messages in either plain text or various dialects of HTML and modify each message so that buttons can be added to the version of the message sent to each subscriber.   I've experimented with some of this in the past (e.g. trying to add an upvote/downvote button for each paragraph).   That didn't work nearly so well as I would have liked because it was hard to identify real paragraph boundares in the actual HTML sent in email messages - or for that matter in plain text email - but if the only place we need such buttons is on a per-message basis I think it's doable. Anyway I think experiments along these lines could be fruitful, and I wonder if anyone else would like to help with this. Keith From nobody Sun Apr 4 04:37:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3E93A0ADA; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 04:37:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tt_9srLEM7-9; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 04:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F9B53A0A16; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 04:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0184891.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 134BVVH5027041; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 07:37:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=U77Eb6F9l0CPDwxtJhh64fCY8B9vXSs/l9N5Zm1ZWo4=; b=z8PTZYLiI2NifYqo73zWwOCYKOlvWgdU39w6Md1FW4B6ifrY3sCytYFhX8OuJyUkmkI2 apIg+2ecNfanUfdjbzRFDkp8TvqaXQM2LQyiyLnPLA8a6+pWbANzeufQRxf3zBZLAv3N TInYB6kseTzaj3fQSraujmq/vbaO+sPOer4DLUzkaSpgg05aK8IObcVEoviLZOxd/bUd mPBszdE3LxG9BYY550L/Q5aXCiC+2WTryYG0F4K86INJUdQglraxWg3SFas8xXc62fnG 1Cwe/nqiUazi6XQB3/YKJWKE3h9vpNm1okiVPdv3fElCFTVcu2Psc2FV18jIDDA4qlU6 5g== Received: from copdcexc36.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-po-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.137]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 37q2n4j7tv-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 04 Apr 2021 07:37:44 -0400 Received: from COPDCEXC35.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.134) by COPDCEXC36.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.135) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2106.2; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 05:37:43 -0600 Received: from COPDCEXEDGE01.cable.comcast.com (96.114.158.213) by COPDCEXC35.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.134) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 05:37:43 -0600 Received: from NAM11-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.56.172) by webmail.comcast.com (96.114.158.213) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 05:37:22 -0600 Received: from MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:189::17) by MN2PR11MB4301.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:188::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.28; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:37:17 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c80d:3887:55ee:e89a]) by MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c80d:3887:55ee:e89a%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:37:17 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Eliot Lear , GENDISPATCH List Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) Thread-Index: AQHXKKo9gOg1FjHafkOL0x0YrOx8H6qj+ViA Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:37:17 +0000 Message-ID: <1E9D993E-5B50-4A13-90DD-1302D7AF8CF2@cable.comcast.com> References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.47.21031401 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; x-originating-ip: [2601:41:200:d70:6151:eec1:28f9:1782] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d92fb86f-22e8-47ee-004c-08d8f75e0075 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4301: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(136003)(376002)(39860400002)(346002)(366004)(84050400001)(8676002)(33656002)(186003)(66556008)(6506007)(64756008)(2616005)(53546011)(66476007)(66946007)(110136005)(38100700001)(8936002)(5660300002)(66446008)(6512007)(86362001)(478600001)(2906002)(71200400001)(76116006)(6486002)(316002)(4744005)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?utf-8?B?dlIzMi9mMWFORnM2alFqbVZqcTZCOE0vWmpaaExzQ2lkVVZETlZzSFlCeUc0?= =?utf-8?B?K3I0NDJtejEwd0xkbU8xM2V5Q2JJdzFkbTJ5YUhNbytCRnlJaW5wZVFwNDV4?= =?utf-8?B?SUZ6VUxlbnpJL0MxeTljVEZuTzR2WlJOKzlBcjBodkp6ckRnMW5ZSnBnSWly?= =?utf-8?B?REl1YkFpRTBoSVE5ck9ZRmNTczBQQytsTGhJZzdOQjUzQnJrNkhLSTBEYitV?= =?utf-8?B?WEo3TDBROHEvWFBRY3Y5MUcxdHo3RVJiUHVUTXUxM3h4ZlY5eUlZS0JsQ3U0?= =?utf-8?B?VzRYZXFjNEFlNzNvcUtQbkFjL0RvOVNJUmpIdFJTS2NvSEJXTXp0dEg4Tzhn?= =?utf-8?B?KzhzbEZkT24xMHo2VHFMang3L3UzZnIrQjNhK3I4dUVza3ViRWVOMW5VeGRx?= =?utf-8?B?WWJWSmdmUHJSZWtQOU1CRlFCN1dlcndiWG12Q0cxc0wvY1VNWlVCRSt0eXN1?= =?utf-8?B?M1RnUnVXdFZNeUxwVFRBbkJDQlNwQW1uQ1RheCtaUHdvTWN6N0FGV0xnM1hS?= =?utf-8?B?NE5ncjlYN3B3YmExZUVCRGJnVmxiRzVDY1dVWE12d04xek43TUxIc1I2TDB3?= =?utf-8?B?cDhTM0NLMjNlQWE3NDZhUVp6VldBdVZJbEhGSHZTc3NoVUZvcmxtbFMrODBF?= =?utf-8?B?SHVTTW16c001TnhVYlF3eDVnQ1NyU1pQb2l6YkRwdTZ4KzFVRGU5WlNyc0VB?= =?utf-8?B?RnRBSk8zUW91U096dWN4dXdVN25UYjUxUXZsMlZOUjFiVTFZY01sVGlldWpo?= =?utf-8?B?MGlOMzJvNHZHL2FEMTI4MUViM1JyOXJTMDQrWGR0WXNCY1lPSVNBSzRzUlB2?= =?utf-8?B?U2VENUlrcWFQaUxuL2xVb0JkVUpYSFBYb3dKenZCVXJSL3BqRmkyWmE2elJM?= =?utf-8?B?ZkJWQjZGS2NFNWFkeFYwU1VZMFRURzVzUG9PVnhwR1dhbkRyY0RZMEROSzVs?= =?utf-8?B?N0ZNN1hOYWs4OS93QTRlMDRZVUxrOHB5OUhmckdRcWZBMU0ySTY2WnNtdHdi?= =?utf-8?B?Vi9RUndvRHcwT2dqckl2Wkd4bW5JYldORDNUd2gyNFgrNlM5WGRUU1cxWWRI?= =?utf-8?B?VlRKYVJzTkpjSHRMU2RvWnEzRDF1cHdpeXcvMzBSZ1ZwdmFHZmZUanpackVP?= =?utf-8?B?MXREQ3c0Q0xjOVZGMXVoZ0JHd0YzS0xsV2FmY0QxLzhMNUVybzZ4bzBtSFYw?= =?utf-8?B?MFJrWXNRNUwzVjJJZ3loRFI1ak5jTDQwTmxQTG43VTR2K1Q3amg3MjVpWlpI?= =?utf-8?B?aXE1Ym1yNGdpa1N6N01SMHoxNmVROUpJcGJnN2lRaEVLQXVhaWw1MnkvUmVs?= =?utf-8?B?U1JULzZLN0pDNUU3cDBQYWU5cDBJUlF1dnNYV0p2SVIrMGhTQ0Iyc2tidi9u?= =?utf-8?B?UGR5TG1USXpZZVJqMGlwNlE4alcvaFlJeGRPaGdCNHRVeC9XT3dER3lCV1h4?= =?utf-8?B?VEl0OFJuL1AxTmJ2QUI3aG5SRVlUTW85MkxydXdRbWcxS202UjBZUEJVSUN1?= =?utf-8?B?Z2xTc3hDODBZSzlkN3BXMmFIRTdYcndialJLT3VLVG9aYUZ3WHpGc3l3SlhJ?= =?utf-8?B?VVRTQzFXbEJzWDRHVGtBVFZrZDc1MEZBeUlYenhsaHVmQ3M1Z09sRUdBcDhn?= =?utf-8?B?c1hPeUlGQ1B3UVpRUllYdXJUSGU3c1VRRXVxUFYzeE50aVVLdU5oZ21kakZi?= =?utf-8?B?aGJGRGZ5b29Ic1g2dVpZbnNnUkU2UDRHZU5SNHRheVlFVlhVZnY1WTZsZTM3?= =?utf-8?B?cXFScFk2V3N2R1dHaXA3b1BYZWMzTGVNMFFpOGVsLzhsSmJyem03b0NQZTdT?= =?utf-8?B?YTY1bHh3dDZHYjJXTjhsS0wzRVJ5RGQxd0hOMG9KT2RVaTU0Z3hVVU5RdytZ?= =?utf-8?Q?cs5naZUBYWBNv?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=YKlNirZF0Q9qY9vv18e+jgtCyr9h4ccXKwu3EsvsXden+D16cSyAmntj1412KZgWAthe5obQtOBgvftu4ZHTqPGrd4tfR+dRCt7DD4VeMHNTYMH2ZAx06HMnnLwfwilocHVXj53NLuZ8EIl+PQI2N5yebdqAjgE+2ePZMdny6NoghhRugjQUpygP4Z1M82rdF2BlTXAgQ4jA+cwU3eyc/I1UeEzyCp0hn7tWUBXfxwjIpJGhw3/IKNfpeo7wNbmPZExGgpXfHpUNIHzrt9Th5n3fZhT9dGh2gG+0v/vkvWCpe98eMTsBYgYiHC34qehfsIafVJYyOBXCAKBKustdFA== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=YbH5zNuK36Rhgn+Q/UHGq39hwY+SswMvyeIpLt/N67E=; b=P7sIgrK7k7IS5NpU2vmdQRmX/w7LgJuBhpqWJUIMe3PyexUvddDpPYksp94Z7ggjMbYFLnfPGJkg2rmP3U8Jabu23Ih8Xgh8iXRFhGa0mDamR/yNARZ8fbUvwTNfzwk19YELvqPc6qqxs9WHhKxcOe9hyBMSxElwHzVvYK41lGrd75+ooE7ZBMDSBBzz6/Oj+HU/DID30eAzo0OhAtTbn7L5q8uKDHQHoHeK+abeXQiDeOdkwMwvK73iZqBxiKzdr+cQ/QaveaUQMpjeANZ0DIqYrlIwEyx5KrAcKCrRD++dIwaSwuKEuHV9WFXnWhyqSzHGS7aAWNydV4dt8NqfdA== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: d92fb86f-22e8-47ee-004c-08d8f75e0075 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Apr 2021 11:37:17.7630 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: WwE3FMVLm8zx98XxO+L5q1D2tzJZM2deB0wZOX/PzE7YYyya/4F/Fq63iXQKMO6RaKgZtmrKXdOfh1Fb9SKSwe7AJDXhUuFT9BH0IwPnKgw= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: MN2PR11MB4301 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <95C0F55E8A2A7F448C2AB9B2020AC28E@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWT X-Proofpoint-GUID: tOwOlcWfT5BgHCFBcgKvYqvU0F-cro2G X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: tOwOlcWfT5BgHCFBcgKvYqvU0F-cro2G X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-04_04:2021-04-01, 2021-04-04 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 11:37:53 -0000 T24gNC8zLzIxLCAxMjo1NiBQTSwgIkdlbmRpc3BhdGNoIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBFbGlvdCBMZWFy IiA8Z2VuZGlzcGF0Y2gtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgbGVhcj00MGNpc2Nv LmNvbUBkbWFyYy5pZXRmLm9yZz4gd3JvdGU6DQo+ICAgIFNpbXBseSBzaHV0dGluZyBkb3duIHRo ZSBJRVRGIGxpc3QsIGhvd2V2ZXIsIGxlYXZlcyB1cyBsZXNzIG9mIGEgY29tbXVuaXR5LiAgV2Ug bmVlZCB0byBmaWd1cmUgb3V0IGhvdyB0byBldm9sdmUgYSBwbGVuYXJ5IGZ1bmN0aW9uLCBhbmQg d2Ugc2hvdWxkIGJlIHRoaW5raW5nIGFib3V0IGFsbCB0aGUgbW9kYWxpdGllcyBhbmQgdG9vbGlu ZyBhdmFpbGFibGUgdG8gdXMuDQoNCj4gUmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gdmlldyB0aGlzIGFzIGEgY29tcGxl dGUgbmVnYXRpdmUsIEkgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGF0IHdlIHRha2UgdGhpcyBhcyBhIGNoYWxsZW5nZSB0 byBmaW5kIGFuIGluZHVzdHJ5LWxlYWRpbmcgd2F5IHRvIGltcHJvdmUgb3ZlcmFsbCBkZWNpc2lv biBtYWtpbmcgYW5kIGRpc2NvdXJzZSBpbiBhbiBlbnZpcm9ubWVudCB3aGVyZSByb3VnaCBjb25z ZW5zdXMgbWF0dGVycywgd2l0aG91dCB1cyBnZXR0aW5nIHRvb+KApiByb3VnaC4NCg0KPiBMZXTi gJlzIG5vdCBqdXN0IGFsbG93IGZvciBuZXcgcG9zc2liaWxpdGllcyBoZXJlOyBsZXTigJlzIHNl ZWsgdGhlbS4NCg0KSSBsaWtlIHRoZSBpZGVhIG9mIHNlZWtpbmcgbmV3IHNvbHV0aW9ucywgc3Bl YWtpbmcgcGVyc29uYWxseS4gSSBhbHNvIHRoaW5rIHdlIHVuZHVseSBjb25zdHJhaW4gb3VyIHRo aW5raW5nIHdoZW4gcmVndWxhcmx5IGFzc3VtaW5nIHRoYXQgY29sbGFib3JhdGlvbiAmIGRpc2N1 c3Npb24gcmVxdWlyZXMgZW1haWwgLSB0aW1lIHRvIHBlcmhhcHMgbW92ZSBzb21lIHR5cGVzIG9m IGludGVyYWN0aW9ucyB0byBuZXcgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGZvcm1zLg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Sun Apr 4 04:46:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C11C3A0BD5 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 04:46:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id heSHoxA99aap for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 04:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 823B73A0BCC for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 04:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0156895.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 134Bf697020263; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 07:46:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=Nub0TQeifK5GQjvyHumD+b1LNdKQl6rvDVP1lz/++Nc=; b=VDz1RlubC5QEJGZarZsV3hHisMZC9B8astH4Salk92GqUXsBrnnwRUrHl8gY+t+ygV/Z hAayZUc8nUNiarZK693xSwUSE4JU56/jnplCWdz6FfYKFfLSLRLX0dtPxWAo7/w2bRrt 71KXkwT6TjSNBRXUEmKBvJEWbxp1gF1iAnjFr5RXi0W9hfFS1B2/shsB9cJOxkdBdfmD QrD8MbSSEwlW3X47NblgAMuLtN+nLIONgajcm2+7NCjnYRQauEHwWfcwYoGfdh0uh5jg 0kh/+062FHUi6A2+WP7Qf9JDDpSo+Lt0qPWDv/7J8p/oRa7h0geq84ecAVTT0gWuA4vD uQ== Received: from copdcexc33.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-po-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.137]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 37q2n1aau1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 04 Apr 2021 07:46:20 -0400 Received: from COPDCEXC37.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.136) by copdcexc33.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.132) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2106.2; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 05:46:18 -0600 Received: from copdcexedge02.cable.comcast.com (76.96.35.199) by COPDCEXC37.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.136) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 05:46:18 -0600 Received: from NAM04-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.46.53) by webmail.comcast.com (76.96.35.199) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.792.3; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 07:46:18 -0400 Received: from MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:189::17) by BL1PR11MB5318.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:312::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.27; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:46:17 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c80d:3887:55ee:e89a]) by MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c80d:3887:55ee:e89a%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:46:17 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Keith Moore , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) Thread-Index: AQHXKKo9gOg1FjHafkOL0x0YrOx8H6qjxFEAgAA3iQA= Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:46:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> <072e17a2-17bf-c46d-0131-82a4b9ef3ab8@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <072e17a2-17bf-c46d-0131-82a4b9ef3ab8@network-heretics.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.47.21031401 authentication-results: network-heretics.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;network-heretics.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; x-originating-ip: [2601:41:200:d70:6151:eec1:28f9:1782] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8cce682b-d002-4b86-a428-08d8f75f41e4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL1PR11MB5318: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: DBvWHcxMe5DY4Xb7pdI4lRs74HbpQVvddgNuSpmrtRsODTDh36esEVJoVqkBeGDUX1d8rsCihsUQ1TgPC2GxDkRVmf5MHIG1KkVxMM2eO9/bUe+G8RXeuEcrvr9OXndfjmxt+Rakrwlx4JXtPk5lipem58oRMYleYpBvbYXtB2Bee1VlgBnRTb9ccrzeqm01RwHXh5tKg428nwAgKvsmvrFFxX/F1aO3ApLsnG63TXid1IWEBzp7M8fyJJrykNOiaSFj+N/ltlOF3nOra8aCULL9ImOCDgWovOvn9Bz56ChUXWHKe0Wr8xrkk7eAc8CBCGD/Tq9z8xkjCd+5l64Nco3iHv2U8ONog5xEWt1BeTF1mt1FI1sgG95+t6WS5smgAVHz5hP6OLhblI7b9rjnJ0sLfSuEedqjwoGK0zuny7EzMY9ZPNtNq81z+Aw5eYl+b9foz/SLO7Lhf2CiRS/pa5ixhOBigt+Ho1ZdVOgfLui8woaZRah+TaGl+XluKJu6lxf/4HoGFFB+sHceVhK5pkiIFlqz8cG4wS0z5GiYxe8p0Ma5jkxU7vfKOGT0afJvI37DSTqQEhUO4vXz/PKOhzB7k2/Yb9eVW/nCYZ0AVikfVUl2NC42sxjMLABXfRXtwZ9I2R2yp5bu6MjrZV5UOOgIunvwQz/7JXt8MvD66S1FsTerNOLwSstD+KMIwWCN7v4kft3e2jCT/mXcWY0AQ6SlRZ5o/zGtWQlU8b+2fIVmswo4QvUAYj3LUybZJmy2EwUK+D7k7SLNeMF/9MUGeA== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(366004)(376002)(346002)(136003)(39860400002)(966005)(71200400001)(86362001)(8936002)(5660300002)(110136005)(316002)(2616005)(38100700001)(66556008)(478600001)(66476007)(76116006)(66946007)(186003)(64756008)(66446008)(33656002)(83380400001)(53546011)(6506007)(6512007)(2906002)(6486002)(8676002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?utf-8?B?Ny80aWgzK1JFaDJGMklkS2VvNEpxV1FyUFIzMjU3VExBTlBGeVBGTWtybGxw?= =?utf-8?B?ZmR4TmlodUR1T2pRS1ZCWTk1OHdGYlJJcVdhUklRQmZ3R25raklodkVWWG5Z?= =?utf-8?B?ZVdJdHV5bkZVSEpUenFXcGdIdTZDSzhlQU9qS1lOaXJCa3hwbXVYUURTTkxp?= =?utf-8?B?aHJIM0t2bmhBUEllODBnblREYlhaZDFSekZ5dDNGM2EwSmxFc3B3dTJJTzk0?= =?utf-8?B?c0tjTnEzaEM3eGQ5dDk2Q2huQ05QckZ5VzFTRldrMmpuK0ZPaWtKTnZ2ODlT?= =?utf-8?B?R2w2YjIxMG0zQUYwUyt6SXJQcUtKRWQ0bFpJVTBReHZpN2NYdGJ6L1M2ZjFF?= =?utf-8?B?NkU4RVVPNEc5c2dyL0t3M2hLc29yRlB1dXBOU3QyR1BzNzhJb3V5aGhHelM4?= =?utf-8?B?b05reCtwUE5GRWFvT0ZNTzFxVk1qazl4d3ZvNXkvaHRaenI1Nm5KdkhiWjJY?= =?utf-8?B?UmV5WHNrSm5zelVTeEZ5RXRwcGNNWUZReHV3QnBaSThuM2pKcWN4bmZPaldi?= =?utf-8?B?Y0k0VWVOZDZvZExKQWVnZlpEWDFMRzNyWmdkeDdIcXN4clNaUUhNNGdmY1lr?= =?utf-8?B?QWp4cUczcWJUQWRUVmNuNStjdmFSUXpRMjRTU3dvcEQwMWZVeUxnWWZGQnN1?= =?utf-8?B?NSsreThIaWxod0IxMDArVm9NRUpCZk9DOUhyY3ljZzRKTUpqbWtJL1VWOE0w?= =?utf-8?B?TktrK2h5UzZEcWNRRXB1ajNlVjFUN05MTVNjTVQyZW9yT1ZsVUo1cHpyQTlU?= =?utf-8?B?WnNjNkpYUUM5QXA1T3Y5MzdJTTB6SVc1d1pGTWdaNFR4TFAzaXpGUzB5djda?= =?utf-8?B?NFl4QmV3M1hLdERGNUhmcnRUZWp4aTE1MDM0di9xeXlYa3VUblFJbmdqTDlN?= =?utf-8?B?b090U3VNWmR3QkNyZklYNGRzOXBkeWxscm90MkFCeUUxRVcxYlRIZ1MzekIw?= =?utf-8?B?ZGo3SFIxQjZzZlRsNUc1bGdvRTcvRDBxWEhsNkxKcG93MURJNUxlTXB3azJW?= =?utf-8?B?SUIrdVNURU50TjUrSXVpYWk4TE1qYXIvMmJEU0xvMnRWYUJWVzE3TTVBM3ZC?= =?utf-8?B?cS9SSzVzdENDS095d1IyQ3dYcXdvMzJUekU3K1JxSUk1SjJ0L2tzdjJOTzJT?= =?utf-8?B?V0NkWDA5d3c1bmdIQUVST1ZhemRPQmFveFIrWVpMRWpoSmdjMTI0bmtpZVdF?= =?utf-8?B?YlMyOVpvelRWa0V0NzhpVUM3YjJUdVN1b1Z1L0hUWDRuWDBDUGZhV3pzaEdH?= =?utf-8?B?L3dOWXY3R1JkMmRiaWJZNjlmS0U0aU95OXhIb2VCRGs2Mmt2NksvYytpbzlI?= =?utf-8?B?c1J3dzlYV294eDRrNis1R3UxdDR1bEUyYlBkL1A4SEpKNm1UYXVBOTZmbGRI?= =?utf-8?B?dWEzQ1I4NStac1hMK1d0dDFkaWtVNXpnRFRqM0ZWRTNHekVwMk5sOHhqSTg2?= =?utf-8?B?RHFwTWR4eHNidmIxTVoyQU1CSTdMNVluVFRmUUpMbGlmaXkwb3U3dGVURmRt?= =?utf-8?B?ZTJqTmNOVk5QdUdzaXV2N1pKTmtOSFBuMTRZNEV4RUpsOFlWaUswM3FmSDBZ?= =?utf-8?B?MmEwOXBmVS9QRHEvWGVoYXZjV2pGSTRRM2ZGbklsc3Riak9ZTDdxRHA4bk9q?= =?utf-8?B?ZldIUkM4RjZsQXJTdURTTHI5RjV2MTgvWDZvYUFrK3BkaDhHbnZtRVduQk9B?= =?utf-8?B?MC8vL3lNT0hrVnBlVHp2cC9GSW4xR3hhQWx1THpYN05aSXdkd095aWhmd0Mw?= =?utf-8?B?SzBKeWNldDZFZ2ttUlZ5cUJQUHpkbnJiRk14MzN6YWRwcTVkb2RUOVlCaFM5?= =?utf-8?B?VmhzM1lEWFgrMnBqY0M1NU1OUHphR2FyYXpzdU1VVE45a04rTE5HTndpWEhI?= =?utf-8?Q?tnJekQWK8pv3T?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=e/XJq6qEdF4a2EX1Z8BIxwskmhwii90o7mHOWxOqhBpBP+jRsug1X0umhi5z+u1m0FhFqvbPDVFTdUd1UqXHRFVi3Il8lgb6Kw6EFu7s9PeoPpJk/0Q/hfazF5loanjWMVxpjGP8kqLpsSlM0ggeyobKc+ZZDyCtlcpXcjTuANVmXegT2R0k2I6qEQyxNeoTUrfMm/lqpwznYVw5OrmhARUcBmvoOWhDF7EF7dlaw981vTGCS7lCysGAdO9ucKTB93NFbCR+LcsNlLdCfW2BV74AyMGPXcEsbvqKVb2Hvj+nvOc1gyxeqFJUM9ic9wrs8J7278XmCFBSjYVnN3sYzg== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ZP4Ds5qjT1g+T+haNjshh54KC5S98c9U3Lz7EAuDDrs=; b=DmNA5/HTeheTABbRqdwsMFUKWKbxmISgByQgbSaJRcd6OyFSIZBhP7PkcjEnQCpb0FC1/H1JDn/vqZLV67bliJupYNszKVfkNuD3F+UTRd4CQesVIXfVK8uYg7RC4aakFnZvUD1zgH1nxWyTVGk8Kbu9fL88+f7IYklQJHE7TQGjr+IxUnsBBxGsug0x7lqt7nokWF1Qe4y7kJMNxusX71g0HTNT+OfDUF/9ZwtOrQSFqM2U3ejkPjfmhqV0YJLDfKIRuqzJ609z6VjRiaUVoKUjGbewRdbCDhdnQQPc+tRjDhtLqRNEqGGlzS/wK61InGavpHtMujUIf0/FhQ/mFQ== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 8cce682b-d002-4b86-a428-08d8f75f41e4 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Apr 2021 11:46:17.0103 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: TN9NY3C8UmPvfjFA7XczoLjbRquKvCjOqTb99YkTc72E3SUek8Ucqo5HD57apLBUODm0m73ePaDebhR6uP7jxEQVyF+naG23myObwFmz2Ik= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BL1PR11MB5318 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <78D89961269CCD40ACF024E3AE8C66A1@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWC X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: D6euFUvBrXdd-Ikej0JKUQI2Is3pCwPC X-Proofpoint-GUID: D6euFUvBrXdd-Ikej0JKUQI2Is3pCwPC X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-04_04:2021-04-01, 2021-04-04 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 11:46:32 -0000 VmVyeSBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyBsaXN0IG9mIGRlc2lyZWQgZmVhdHVyZXMgLSBob3BlZnVsbHkgaXQg Z2VuZXJhdGVzIHNvbWUgYnJhaW5zdG9ybWluZyBmcm9tIG90aGVycy4gSSBrbm93IHdlIGFsbCBs aWtlIHRvIHF1aWNrbHkganVtcCB0byBwb3NzaWJsZSB0ZWNobmljYWwgc29sdXRpb25zIGJ1dCB0 aGlzIG1heSBiZSBhIGNhc2Ugd2hlcmUgY29udGludWluZyB0byBkZWZpbmUgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRz L2ZlYXR1cmVzL3Byb2JsZW1zIGFzIGJlbG93IGlzIGJldHRlciB0aGFuIGp1bXBpbmcgYWhlYWQg dG9vIHF1aWNrbHkuIEF0IHNvbWUgcG9pbnQgc29tZSBleHBlcmltZW50cyB3aWxsIGFkZCB2YWx1 ZSB0b28uDQoNCu+7v09uIDQvNC8yMSwgMTI6MjggQU0sICJHZW5kaXNwYXRjaCBvbiBiZWhhbGYg b2YgS2VpdGggTW9vcmUiIDxnZW5kaXNwYXRjaC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBv ZiBtb29yZUBuZXR3b3JrLWhlcmV0aWNzLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCiAgICBPbiA0LzMvMjEgMTI6 NTQgUE0sIEVsaW90IExlYXIgd3JvdGU6DQoNCiAgICA+IFJhdGhlciB0aGFuIHZpZXcgdGhpcyBh cyBhIGNvbXBsZXRlIG5lZ2F0aXZlLCBJIHN1Z2dlc3QgdGhhdCB3ZSB0YWtlIHRoaXMgYXMgYSBj aGFsbGVuZ2UgdG8gZmluZCBhbiBpbmR1c3RyeS1sZWFkaW5nIHdheSB0byBpbXByb3ZlIG92ZXJh bGwgZGVjaXNpb24gbWFraW5nIGFuZCBkaXNjb3Vyc2UgaW4gYW4gZW52aXJvbm1lbnQgd2hlcmUg cm91Z2ggY29uc2Vuc3VzIG1hdHRlcnMsIHdpdGhvdXQgdXMgZ2V0dGluZyB0b2/igKYgcm91Z2gu DQoNCg0KICAgIEkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHdvbmRlcmluZyBmb3IgYXdoaWxlIHdoZXRoZXIgc29tZSBl bmhhbmNlbWVudHMgdG8gb3VyIG1lYW5zDQogICAgb2YgZGlzdHJpYnV0aW5nIGVtYWlsIHRvIHN1 YnNjcmliZXJzIGNvdWxkIHlpZWxkIGEgYmV0dGVyIGV4cGVyaWVuY2UgZm9yDQogICAgaWV0ZkAg aW4gcGFydGljdWxhciBhbmQgcGVyaGFwcyBvdGhlciBsaXN0cyBhbHNvLiBJbWFnaW5lIHRoYXQg aW5zdGVhZA0KICAgIG9mIHRoZSBsaXN0IHNpbXBseSBzZW5kaW5nIGV2ZXJ5IG1lc3NhZ2UgdG8g ZXZlcnkgc3Vic2NyaWJlciwgdGhlIGxpc3QNCiAgICBjb3VsZCBkbyBwZXItc3Vic2NyaWJlciBm aWx0ZXJpbmcgYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIGVhY2ggc3Vic2NyaWJlcidzDQogICAgcHJlZmVyZW5jZXMu ICAgVGhlbiBhIHJlYWRlciB3aG8gZ290IHRpcmVkIG9mIGEgY2VydGFpbiB0aHJlYWQgY291bGQN CiAgICBwcmVzcyBhICJEb24ndCBzaG93IG1lIGFueSBtb3JlIG1lc3NhZ2VzIGZyb20gdGhpcyB0 aHJlYWQiIGJ1dHRvbi4gIFRoZQ0KICAgIG1lc3NhZ2VzIHdvdWxkIHN0aWxsIGJlIGFyY2hpdmVk IHNvIHRoZXkgd291bGRuJ3QgYmUgaW5hY2Nlc3NpYmxlIHRvIHRoZQ0KICAgIHJlYWRlciwgYnV0 IHRoZSByZWFkZXIgd291bGRuJ3QgYmUgaW50ZXJydXB0ZWQgYnkgc2VlaW5nIHN1Y2ggbWVzc2Fn ZXMNCiAgICBhcnJpdmUgb3IgbmVlZCB0byBib3RoZXIgd2l0aCBkZWxldGluZy4NCg0KICAgIEFu b3RoZXIgcG9zc2libGUgZW5oYW5jZW1lbnQgd291bGQgYWxsb3cgYSBzdWJzY3JpYmVyIHRvIGZv bGxvdyBhIHRocmVhZA0KICAgIGFzIGl0IG1vdmVkIGZyb20gb25lIGxpc3QgdG8gYW5vdGhlci4g ICBUaGF0IHdheSwgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgY291bGQNCiAgICBlYXNpbHkgYmUgdGFrZW4gb2ZmIHRo ZSAibWFpbiIgbGlzdCBvZiBhIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgZ3JvdXAgYW5kIG1vdmVkIHRvIGENCiAgICAi c2lkZSIgbGlzdC4gICBTbyB3aGVuLCBzYXksIHRoZSBpZXRmQCBsaXN0IGdldHMgaW50byBkaXNj dXNzaW9ucw0KICAgIGJldHdlZW4gYSBzbWFsbCBudW1iZXIgb2YgcGVvcGxlLCB0aGUgbW9kZXJh dG9yIGNvdWxkIHNheSAidGFrZSBpdCBvZmYNCiAgICB0aGUgaWV0ZkAgbGlzdCBhbmQgcmVwb3J0 IGJhY2sgdG8gdXMgaWYvd2hlbiB5b3UgaGF2ZSByZWFjaGVkIHNvbWUgc29ydA0KICAgIG9mIGFn cmVlbWVudCIuICAgVGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gY291bGQgbW92ZSBzZWFtbGVzc2x5IChhbnlvbmUg d2hvIGhhZA0KICAgIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGVkIHRvIHRoZSB0aHJlYWQgd291bGQgYXV0b21hdGljYWxs eSBzdGFydCBzZWVpbmcgdGhlIHNpZGUgbGlzdA0KICAgIHRyYWZmaWMpLCBhbmQgYW55b25lIGVs c2Ugd2hvIHdhbnRlZCB0byBmb2xsb3cgdGhhdCB0cmFmZmljIGNvdWxkIGFsc28NCiAgICB3YXRj aCB0aG9zZSBtZXNzYWdlcyAob3Igc3RvcCB3YXRjaGluZyB0aGVtKSB3aXRoIGEgc2luZ2xlIGJ1 dHRvbg0KICAgIGNsaWNrLiAgIEV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcgd291bGQgc3RpbGwgZ2V0IGFyY2hpdmVkIHdp dGggdG9waWNzIHJldGFpbmVkIGluIHRoZQ0KICAgIG1lc3NhZ2UgaGVhZGVycy4NCg0KICAgIChy ZWFsbHksICJsaXN0cyIgaW4gdGhpcyBlbnZpcm9ubWVudCBiZWNvbWUgbW9yZSBsaWtlICJ0b3Bp Y3MiKQ0KDQogICAgQW5vdGhlciBwb3NzaWJsZSBlbmhhbmNlbWVudCBtaWdodCBiZSAicmVtb3Zl IG1lIGZyb20gcmVwbGllcyB0byB0aGlzDQogICAgdGhyZWFkIi4gICBUaGUgbGlzdCBzb2Z0d2Fy ZSB3b3VsZCB0aGVuIHJlbW92ZSB0aGF0IHN1YnNjcmliZXIgZnJvbQ0KICAgIHRvL2NjIGhlYWRl cnMgb2YgbWVzc2FnZXMgZnJvbSB0aGF0IHRocmVhZCB0aGF0IGFyZSBwb3N0ZWQgdG8gdGhlDQog ICAgbGlzdC4gICBUaGlzIHdvdWxkbid0IGtlZXAgcmVhZGVycyBmcm9tIGRvaW5nICJyZXBseSBh bGwiIHRvIG1lc3NhZ2VzDQogICAgdGhleSBoYWQgYWxyZWFkeSByZWNlaXZlZCwgYnV0IGl0IHdv dWxkIHJlZHVjZSB0aGUgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHJlcGxpZXMNCiAgICBzZW50IHRvIHJlY2lwaWVudHMg d2hvIG5vIGxvbmdlciB3YW50ZWQgdG8gYmUgaW4gYSBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIGRpc2N1c3Npb24uDQoN CiAgICBBbm90aGVyIHBvc3NpYmxlIGVuaGFuY2VtZW50IHdvdWxkIGJlICJ1cHZvdGUiIC8gImRv d252b3RlIiBpbiByZXNwb25zZQ0KICAgIHRvIGEgcGFydGljdWxhciBtZXNzYWdlIGZyb20gYSBs aXN0LCBhbmQgcmVhZGVycyB3b3VsZCBzZWUgdGhlIG51bWJlciBvZg0KICAgIHVwdm90ZXMgYW5k IGRvd252b3RlcyB3aGVuIHRoZXkgKHJlKXJlYWQgdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2UgZnJvbSB0aGUgbGlzdCBv cg0KICAgIHJlYWQgaXQgaW4gdGhlIGFyY2hpdmUuICAgVGhpcyB3b3VsZCByZWR1Y2UgdGhlIG51 bWJlciBvZiBtZXNzYWdlcw0KICAgIHBvc3RlZCBmb3Igbm8gb3RoZXIgcmVhc29uIHRoYW4gdG8g c2F5ICIrMSIuICAgKEkndmUgaW1wbGVtZW50ZWQgdGhpcw0KICAgIHVzaW5nIDxJTUc+IHRhZ3Mg dG8gcG9pbnQgdG8gaW1hZ2VzIG9mIHRoZSByZXNwZWN0aXZlIHZvdGUgY291bnRzLiAgIFRoZQ0K ICAgIHJlc3VsdHMgY2VydGFpbmx5IHdlcmVuJ3QgcGVyZmVjdCwgZXNwZWNpYWxseSBzaW5jZSBt YW55IE1VQXMgZG9uJ3QNCiAgICBkaXNwbGF5IGltYWdlcyBieSBkZWZhdWx0LCBidXQgc2VlbWVk IHBvdGVudGlhbGx5IHVzZWZ1bC4pDQoNCiAgICBPbmUgb2YgdGhlIG1haW4gcHJvYmxlbXMgd2l0 aCBlbWFpbCBpbiBnZW5lcmFsIGlzIHRoYXQgaXQgaGFzIGJlY29tZSB0aGUNCiAgICBkZWZhdWx0 IGR1bXBpbmcgZ3JvdW5kIGZvciBtZXNzYWdlcyBvZiBkdWJpb3VzIG9yIG1hcmdpbmFsIHJlbGV2 YW5jZQ0KICAgIGZyb20gbnVtZXJvdXMgc291cmNlcy4gIFRoaXMgaXNuJ3QganVzdCBzcGFtIGJ1 dCBhbHNvIHN0YXR1cyBtZXNzYWdlcywNCiAgICByZW1pbmRlciBtZXNzYWdlcywgInlvdSBnb3Qg YSBtZXNzYWdlIG9uIHRoaXMgb3RoZXIgc2VydmljZSAoYnV0IHdlDQogICAgd29uJ3QgdGVsbCB5 b3Ugd2hhdCBpdCBpcykiIG1lc3NhZ2VzLCB5b3UgbmVlZCB0byBjaGFuZ2UgeW91ciBwYXNzd29y ZCwNCiAgICB5b3VyIGRpc2sgc3RvcmFnZSBpcyBvdmVyIHF1b3RhLCBldGMuICAgVGhlIG92ZXJh bGwgaW50ZXJydXB0IG92ZXJoZWFkDQogICAgaXMgdG9vIGhpZ2guICBTbyBldmVyeSBleHRyYW5l b3VzIG1lc3NhZ2UgYmVjb21lcyB0aGF0IG11Y2ggbW9yZQ0KICAgIGFubm95aW5nLiAgUmVkdWNp bmcgdGhlIG51bWJlciBvZiBleHRyYW5lb3VzIG1lc3NhZ2VzIHdoaWxlIHN0aWxsDQogICAga2Vl cGluZyB0aGUgcmVhZGVyIGluIGNvbnRyb2wgb2Ygd2hhdCB0aGV5IHNlZSBzZWVtcyBsaWtlIGEg Z29vZCBpZGVhLg0KDQogICAgSSB0aGluayB0aGUgaGFyZGVzdCBwYXJ0IG9mIGltcGxlbWVudGlu ZyBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSB0aGlzIGlzIHRoYXQgaXQNCiAgICBoYXMgdG8gdGFrZSBhcyBpbnB1 dCBhIGxvdCBvZiBtZXNzYWdlcyBpbiBlaXRoZXIgcGxhaW4gdGV4dCBvciB2YXJpb3VzDQogICAg ZGlhbGVjdHMgb2YgSFRNTCBhbmQgbW9kaWZ5IGVhY2ggbWVzc2FnZSBzbyB0aGF0IGJ1dHRvbnMg Y2FuIGJlIGFkZGVkIHRvDQogICAgdGhlIHZlcnNpb24gb2YgdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2Ugc2VudCB0byBl YWNoIHN1YnNjcmliZXIuICAgSSd2ZSBleHBlcmltZW50ZWQNCiAgICB3aXRoIHNvbWUgb2YgdGhp cyBpbiB0aGUgcGFzdCAoZS5nLiB0cnlpbmcgdG8gYWRkIGFuIHVwdm90ZS9kb3dudm90ZQ0KICAg IGJ1dHRvbiBmb3IgZWFjaCBwYXJhZ3JhcGgpLiAgIFRoYXQgZGlkbid0IHdvcmsgbmVhcmx5IHNv IHdlbGwgYXMgSSB3b3VsZA0KICAgIGhhdmUgbGlrZWQgYmVjYXVzZSBpdCB3YXMgaGFyZCB0byBp ZGVudGlmeSByZWFsIHBhcmFncmFwaCBib3VuZGFyZXMgaW4NCiAgICB0aGUgYWN0dWFsIEhUTUwg c2VudCBpbiBlbWFpbCBtZXNzYWdlcyAtIG9yIGZvciB0aGF0IG1hdHRlciBpbiBwbGFpbg0KICAg IHRleHQgZW1haWwgLSBidXQgaWYgdGhlIG9ubHkgcGxhY2Ugd2UgbmVlZCBzdWNoIGJ1dHRvbnMg aXMgb24gYQ0KICAgIHBlci1tZXNzYWdlIGJhc2lzIEkgdGhpbmsgaXQncyBkb2FibGUuDQoNCiAg ICBBbnl3YXkgSSB0aGluayBleHBlcmltZW50cyBhbG9uZyB0aGVzZSBsaW5lcyBjb3VsZCBiZSBm cnVpdGZ1bCwgYW5kIEkNCiAgICB3b25kZXIgaWYgYW55b25lIGVsc2Ugd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBo ZWxwIHdpdGggdGhpcy4NCg0KICAgIEtlaXRoDQoNCg0KICAgIC0tDQogICAgR2VuZGlzcGF0Y2gg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgR2VuZGlzcGF0Y2hAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICBodHRwczovL3VybGRl ZmVuc2UuY29tL3YzL19faHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9nZW5k aXNwYXRjaF9fOyEhQ1FsM21jSFgyQSFYS2Q2Y3lEMU5RMTNZLWhORWxfMVJfZkxGUnZRcTBzVGw3 dTB6ckxTRFhVQUJfQmRteFdoSG1uWVlKTG9WeVZHWlBCVWhBJA0KDQo= From nobody Sun Apr 4 08:05:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E33B3A166D for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 08:05:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IrHSxjy_CH0f for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 08:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C0CD3A166C for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 08:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 777185C00B5 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 04 Apr 2021 11:04:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=z9QQYq+rd6P8UlqcDXGsvVKrhdc1gOWPBMG3y12IV Gs=; b=Us/7kCXkHAyXitI6aU55LN3JHuUuSld3s9aBALtnaI/7WzciZRqcLOTgN 3WxMud0+p+gBKhA5OsrmcygIVLYVt6ewHrF008KGmL8pLdvCi3F9Mpejbe19C8Za 2hwxkFnz7h34cgUPOH9twh6TuYVf17G44YpFO2l62a48UWb4I29dcJ3yQH+Pmw/R 5Ufj6Bv/ZOLTDvfjt0tOYcrFy0Ru4NWt1vyzTOBR83nL8ITUuIObxg3fvI2IlFTL 5elsSvZLInnUuQvye1urBF6l712AydzZJ34x+hGEI2kYPSuqbYWDnkxUy933/dLB rXo+LY6fckKW+qNZ1amdYjcwoHL7A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejtddgkeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.118] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 73B4F240057 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:04:54 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> <072e17a2-17bf-c46d-0131-82a4b9ef3ab8@network-heretics.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:04:53 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 15:05:03 -0000 On 4/4/21 7:46 AM, Livingood, Jason wrote: > Very interesting list of desired features - hopefully it generates some brainstorming from others. I know we all like to quickly jump to possible technical solutions but this may be a case where continuing to define requirements/features/problems as below is better than jumping ahead too quickly. At some point some experiments will add value too. thanks.   I would also like to see brainstorming from others. In this case I think experiments are low-effort and can be done without disrupting to the existing list software or servers, so there's no particular need to delay them.   As with all user interfaces, this one would need to be repeatedly evaluated and refined based on experience. Keith From nobody Sun Apr 4 08:15:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64183A16C7 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 08:15:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Piarrv5YQueC for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 08:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C074A3A16C6 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 08:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187AB5C0040 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 04 Apr 2021 11:15:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=Jv/hgv ++SuldVVI0MRktq7roNz9yRlPdvUGgAeiEcrI=; b=hpbbkBVjIbOjMy/rSNwX1C EcYub7hRH4BL7HiVM+AYZEjhAi0eFmjjWUQ7e0TTVfVdlUfg9QnnSsdVuHShxiiQ P7K/h11acZbYGwOiqVEzjrvckKb3PI/4W6Or0OdCX5p1xnFV54gL6Kt+f+PwjCDb uUShgss0bGtyf5w0RCnvPyIpTU8wIb8mfMfRB2VV1FWRfFVlTMIHPTUozQXuCjRg CtMR362N8hY91XhmyuavowJZMAk6POz1G1XdqE856iBS1TdtH5ZQ7ZDFBDsOxkzg j4E0a0o4OJcBuDF74t4/7G2RoWofw0Y8n6f/n5FmIAmFPQTs+1YKrgCFFtor8aLQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejtddgkeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveefteduieegtd elvddvtddufeejjeffvdefteejieeulefgtdfggedtffektedunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.118] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DFEE8240057 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:15:34 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> <1E9D993E-5B50-4A13-90DD-1302D7AF8CF2@cable.comcast.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:15:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1E9D993E-5B50-4A13-90DD-1302D7AF8CF2@cable.comcast.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CDF83718B09308CF39C545B2" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 15:15:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CDF83718B09308CF39C545B2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4/4/21 7:37 AM, Livingood, Jason wrote: >> Let’s not just allow for new possibilities here; let’s seek them. > I like the idea of seeking new solutions, speaking personally. I also think we unduly constrain our thinking when regularly assuming that collaboration & discussion requires email - time to perhaps move some types of interactions to new technical forms. As far as I can tell, Dave Crocker and Jon Postel and their colleagues in the late 1980s had a much better handle on effective interpersonal communications than the developers of any of the other excuses for collaborative media that I've experienced to date. At the same time, clearly email doesn't need to be stuck in the late 1990s.   There's room for some improvement in email that takes advantage of better connectivity (in most but not all parts of the world), broader availability of server resources, perhaps ease of management, and so forth. A lot of the effectiveness of an email-based approach depends on what user agents people use, which in turn influence their email reading habits.   For instance, I have no problem ignoring messages from threads that I don't find interesting, whereas other people seem to experience those messages as a huge burden.   I expect that the difference is related to the tools we are each using.   But there's a lot of inertia around the user agents and email systems that people use, and for multiple reasons it's hard for people to change tools. I fully expect that whatever new ideas IETF came up with would eventually need a web interface, so that users would have multiple choices for how to access that system. Keith --------------CDF83718B09308CF39C545B2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 4/4/21 7:37 AM, Livingood, Jason wrote:

Let’s not just allow for new possibilities here; let’s seek them.

I like the idea of seeking new solutions, speaking personally. I also think we unduly constrain our thinking when regularly assuming that collaboration & discussion requires email - time to perhaps move some types of interactions to new technical forms.

As far as I can tell, Dave Crocker and Jon Postel and their colleagues in the late 1980s had a much better handle on effective interpersonal communications than the developers of any of the other excuses for collaborative media that I've experienced to date.  

At the same time, clearly email doesn't need to be stuck in the late 1990s.   There's room for some improvement in email that takes advantage of better connectivity (in most but not all parts of the world), broader availability of server resources, perhaps ease of management, and so forth.

A lot of the effectiveness of an email-based approach depends on what user agents people use, which in turn influence their email reading habits.   For instance, I have no problem ignoring messages from threads that I don't find interesting, whereas other people seem to experience those messages as a huge burden.   I expect that the difference is related to the tools we are each using.   But there's a lot of inertia around the user agents and email systems that people use, and for multiple reasons it's hard for people to change tools.   

I fully expect that whatever new ideas IETF came up with would eventually need a web interface, so that users would have multiple choices for how to access that system.

Keith


--------------CDF83718B09308CF39C545B2-- From nobody Mon Apr 5 17:18:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B143A2E08 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:18:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E3G2m0lxtw4j for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B72FC3A2E05 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id r17so3812427ilt.0 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2021 17:18:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=u6nDTbV+rEb4XfhNJA5WKgRqEpPWz4uNpjsIZ6R1/FM=; b=VBS21dPIP7c2lJxllmATEbGYydGtTWa1yCNJiI1sUO/u1mb8TI0jVXjevtQiRg1wz8 0jYIYr/kXck06+rBtz950jKfgD6K6euNHI67/dZFFdwsQPZ0yalX4SLG/GCulLM0Y/FZ eh0xsNyArj9x8oW5meGLP8lSpkEhS8HymA6LD0tD5KutrYah68jVJs5VVUsUklRvo9gd iBswteES/Qt3TnFRKnXrc8SzpTYHGdmbdN2rGuFhPiv4FftRqScfnzxhgwHVRdATbQEr l9wO0e0giAk3oNOaaTgNguR05U2JORdgnzVwWR8OPVWZ8JILf1TRgDPGfGBpI0b2Tzl9 DxeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=u6nDTbV+rEb4XfhNJA5WKgRqEpPWz4uNpjsIZ6R1/FM=; b=iQwnvdMAiof88n+6B1xiXqgHv6Yr02zygyhfIqRbbYDqDPAdjQ0GSqePZucOxDUguc XpDs+5pxeYaRSqfeI+L9F1tKDmBZCcraUDONFvNpC1JXH1BcCnw4KNNHYLag4s/BxEIe F2uX2vaOCfVS1XPOeiQhotkSjKqAmU0meAt+9GTwSAVPDEiB8MTFjWL3VahHGv3csh0C 3jLPjbzE6CoR2mMCjjMW/xt26KKMBxrfy5TWIKyyXHQzbB0mNEaLIyzeOF92muapt81o /GWnrWcbKh/OM83xu0ZXkJrnfpxD20Ftmm2ozumtDWIfNm6xVFCxF2IF2J5wTn53M7Wx XHSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Bv5Hd3bJg1FkKXPolruGAMGyvSqlKV5OoH9fZT0zULIK6Qfue 2PCG6yKFcnbCwAEB5yxQWIcJJhOtBdtYlLzEaDQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyGmLoZGkmebbjxMHOXi92mnne2mWRvPbeDndrUXy5jzIQVrrQ0j6NY2312Ulio1M2XIgY788yS/WlydDtUdBI= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d68c:: with SMTP id p12mr22746459iln.73.1617668318429; Mon, 05 Apr 2021 17:18:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:18:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c151305bf42c192" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 00:18:45 -0000 --0000000000007c151305bf42c192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:04 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > Rob, > > I share your (and others) negative opinion of the IETF list. However, I > think it's also clear from this discussion that there is significant > opposition to having no "general" list at all. > I'm going to write this draft anyway. Most of the people that oppose this idea seem to be among the very small population of regular IETF list participants, and the traffic in the past few days has been very depressing. I believe these people should create a blog or something. What they are sending doesn't have much to do with the IETF. thanks, Rob --0000000000007c151305bf42c192 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:04 PM Eric R= escorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
=
Rob,

I share your (and others) negative opinion= of the IETF list. However, I think it's also clear from this discussio= n that there is significant opposition to having no "general" lis= t at all.

I'm going to writ= e this draft anyway. Most of the people that oppose this idea seem to be am= ong the very small population of regular IETF list participants, and the tr= affic in the past few days has been very depressing.

I believe these people should create a blog or something. What they are = sending doesn't have much to do with the IETF.

thanks,
Rob

--0000000000007c151305bf42c192-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 01:16:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3E53A15F9 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 01:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pw2MJr4MVrWf for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 01:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8F3D3A15F6 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 01:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imap.open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx3.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DECC86A273; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:16:42 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1617697002; bh=D2qPGeYOa7txBt35U16u9VuOchnFL32hTkQ78TimI3Q=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=qszDyybIcDNw+AMGOQ9DVUFUWoGbtB0Bqf5ywwJK4RgWjkrldMntqxHQCI+9U9XU5 cBqZl/Uagqv8AzTJNKTfhIvjNxnJKTmb3pWnUBJ/hIA7Y03PH0wlW9hTS/XwpYZWUw E04jrx+gROIMbDz24MmBGstOR+G4jrQ96+bMVNRTyY3mPSGZfnC/qpt2JHuN/PvqZ9 /qUUlyPddheyOI885G+MESf+u/yG6HBG681ISkeG+DCutQmu8lAmaxWOk0Aoj/CrBY 7hlfoAt0xtejm9+HtH8MIziFz1n53f5VGURN+aLVCUki8PGMGPIcELmMZP03cX5jVk Z0z+62fSobRng== Received: from appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com ([10.20.28.82]) by imap.open-xchange.com with ESMTPSA id JfBONuoYbGB3bQAA3c6Kzw (envelope-from ); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 10:16:42 +0200 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:16:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <1275822122.30342.1617697002820@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> <1E9D993E-5B50-4A13-90DD-1302D7AF8CF2@cable.comcast.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30340_848546016.1617697002814" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev8 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 08:16:52 -0000 ------=_Part_30340_848546016.1617697002814 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 04/04/2021 17:15 Keith Moore ha scritto: > > A lot of the effectiveness of an email-based approach depends on what user agents people use, which in turn influence their email reading habits. For instance, I have no problem ignoring messages from threads that I don't find interesting, whereas other people seem to experience those messages as a huge burden. I expect that the difference is related to the tools we are each using. But there's a lot of inertia around the user agents and email systems that people use, and for multiple reasons it's hard for people to change tools. > > I fully expect that whatever new ideas IETF came up with would eventually need a web interface, so that users would have multiple choices for how to access that system. > Should the choice go for an email-based system, there are several open source webmail platforms that the IETF could adopt and customize to whatever UI is desired, like it did with Meetecho. People could still access their IETF email with other tools but the IETF webmail would give them special UI features, including custom email filters and integration with documents and perhaps even with git repos and with RFC tools, and with Meetecho itself. I am not fond of customized tooling but this is indeed a possibility. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_30340_848546016.1617697002814 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 04/04/2021 17:15 Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> ha scritto:

A lot of the effectiveness of an email-based approach depends on what user agents people use, which in turn influence their email reading habits.   For instance, I have no problem ignoring messages from threads that I don't find interesting, whereas other people seem to experience those messages as a huge burden.   I expect that the difference is related to the tools we are each using.   But there's a lot of inertia around the user agents and email systems that people use, and for multiple reasons it's hard for people to change tools.   

I fully expect that whatever new ideas IETF came up with would eventually need a web interface, so that users would have multiple choices for how to access that system.

Should the choice go for an email-based system, there are several open source webmail platforms that the IETF could adopt and customize to whatever UI is desired, like it did with Meetecho. People could still access their IETF email with other tools but the IETF webmail would give them special UI features, including custom email filters and integration with documents and perhaps even with git repos and with RFC tools, and with Meetecho itself. I am not fond of customized tooling but this is indeed a possibility.

-- 
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
------=_Part_30340_848546016.1617697002814-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 04:12:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C64A3A1C64 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 04:12:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.617 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.617 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=EWaGejk3; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=f7T0QddP Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id scKDCke5a7lh for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 04:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40E513A1C60 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 04:12:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=29948; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1617707554; x=1618917154; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=Tug4sXfQuwzrJ041PQlu2NgKo1mVI44j7dYIPuHTCUI=; b=EWaGejk3zF3AVte9dTr25nz1V/IB4yDl+VmYQg+LKiqLKcml1BBNj9wH clFEG/Ws9zq5tD8QqFOjBK9rrGGAbrNiG4TYgoyF8iEmQ75fr5N12pZeY zXPg7gFPAiW1SmCj88GaweHdPpF9d/a36SbyCnFsPeuJOjGPMNomQjcuR 4=; IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3AWf8nnx8+w3TGOP9uWNHoyV9lXQAupqn0MwgJ6?= =?us-ascii?q?5Eul7NJdOG58o//OFDEjd1iiVbIWcPQ7PcXw+bVsqW1X2sG7N7BtX0Za5VDW?= =?us-ascii?q?lcDjtlehA0vBsOJSCiZZP7nZiA3BoJOAVli+XzoPk1cGcK4bFrX8TW+6DcIE?= =?us-ascii?q?UD5Mgx4bu3+Bo/ViZGx0Oa/s53eaglFnnyze7R3eR63tg7W8MIRhNgKFw=3D?= =?us-ascii?q?=3D?= IronPort-HdrOrdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3Aej9uF6xni76uzE82sZKVKrPxdu8kLtp033?= =?us-ascii?q?Aq2lEZdDV8Sebdv9yynfgdyB//gCsQXnZlotybJKycWxrnlKJdybI6eZOvRh?= =?us-ascii?q?PvtmftFoFt6oP+3ybtcheRysd07o0lSaR3DbTLYmRSpczx7BCkV/Mpx9ea+K?= =?us-ascii?q?6l7N2us0tFZwdsdq1m8kNdAgGUDkV5SGB9dOUEPbCb4ddKoCflRGQPYq2Adz?= =?us-ascii?q?Y4dsXgh/mOrpLpZhYaGwUqgTPvsRqE4KP3eiLopis2fChIxd4ZgA34uiz/op?= =?us-ascii?q?6uqvSqjiLbvlWjkqh+vPvE5p99CNeXis4TQw+cxDqAQIh6QbWNsHQUjYiUmS?= =?us-ascii?q?0XueLBqRshIMh/gkm5FgrezHeduHiD7B8U53Dv0lOei3f4yPaJPg4SMdZLho?= =?us-ascii?q?5Sb3Limi0dlex8y65C0ia4sJdaHHr77V3AzuXITB1jmw6Ip2Mjm4co/hpieL?= =?us-ascii?q?YZAYUhybA3zQdwKtMtDSj64IcoHK1FF8fH/stbdluccjTwonRv6MbEZAVzIj?= =?us-ascii?q?62Bmw5/uCF2Tlfm350i2ECwtYEo3sG/JUhD7FZ+uX/NLhynr0mdL5XUYtNQM?= =?us-ascii?q?M6BeenAG3ERhzBdEiIJ078Ka0BM3XR77n6/asy/+PvXJAT1pM9lNDgXTpjxC?= =?us-ascii?q?0PUnOrLffL8IxA8xjLTmn4dy/q0Nti659wvaC5S6HsNSGFVVAyg8qtq/gSGa?= =?us-ascii?q?TgKrOOEaMTJ8WmAXrlGI5P0QG7cYJVM2MiXMocvct+W1/mmLOOFqTa8sjgNN?= =?us-ascii?q?rDLrvkFjgpHknlBGEYYTT1LMJcqkSiWnryhgnNS2rgE3aPuq5YIez/xaw+2Y?= =?us-ascii?q?INPopDvkw+klKi/PyGLjVEr+gxZ0txILTul6uhvmmo9WPU72FkUyAtTHp90f?= =?us-ascii?q?HFaTdntAUKO0T7ffIooNOEY11f23OBO1tiVc/MCRVeoF524KqzKJSVyUkZep?= =?us-ascii?q?SaG1Pfq0FWiGOBTp8alKHG2NzsfYkgCI06HIZrEx/QKhBzkQF2iWtKZQMeXH?= =?us-ascii?q?XDHjf2hajNtu1MOMjvM/1HxCaiO4p9tG/Wv0T0n7BQelIrGxqVFfOxrSlrbT?= =?us-ascii?q?xOnVF1+7IYm9O76EeSAFp6pv85Pl1KYHmQG5RcAm2+Fd1ps4GuXh1sRmGXgj?= =?us-ascii?q?HfrBc/dgPRhh8vr12kCzGIcvfWBVcYgFRk6+LB9VN5cXj1RTMqVllzrZB9GW?= =?us-ascii?q?Paunx6zO+MYe6p33GMb0YZq9ttQA3tcH8cJBhjyMuw0wPQkDGeFW8+zpFrJe?= =?us-ascii?q?DFCq8/GoujkE+FOcmNlascGeVT84sgPNfysvUTWeb3QX7cEBroT+co0ReSvH?= =?us-ascii?q?ArJW19r2Qli+rh3Fng4HKj1HAyRfrUL1IOfcBRH/iMq2zlTe2PypN3kJY8uv?= =?us-ascii?q?axKHz4bpqe0r7MBgQzXS/7sCqzVaUluJpUtaU9uP96GITaSyLB0DVC0A8lJM?= =?us-ascii?q?n5mUsCSM1Akf38E54qe9ZXdzNS/1IvmtjKNkctvwDsCuI1fF0mjRbgTpq0yq?= =?us-ascii?q?uNraBqDlyKpQP2N1Xa7jZU+O3dWTCfkbEdEKA9LA1tGQQBwWUn+PnHcYLeCA?= =?us-ascii?q?+nLb4euFW7N2Kwa79bRuyOH64KohNz/tGPmKuWekPDqXXtlCo+JrgL9WCtBd?= =?us-ascii?q?62CkaLH+VD9tShI1SCgqew+qeI/UHKYCr+b15dnJFPcEwbc99KhTYjhpAmyy?= =?us-ascii?q?TacN2Enms1119FpSx9nlHj2oK68H7WEEFPPwremIhXV1BoQwy1pNWA9/OZ2n?= =?us-ascii?q?T76CVE3peGFF44RKA8J+Qt?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D5BgChQGxg/5RdJa1aHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQGCEoEjMCMuB3daNjEKhDiDSAOFOYhNA5k3gUKBEQNUCwEBAQ0?= =?us-ascii?q?BATICBAEBhFACF4FfAiU4EwIDAQEMAQEFAQEBAgEGBHEThVANhkQBAQEEIwo?= =?us-ascii?q?TAQEmEg8CAQYCEQQBAQ0UBwMCAgIwFAkIAgQBEggMgl6BflcDLwEDjyGQbQK?= =?us-ascii?q?KH3eBMoEBggQBAQaFHRiCEwmBOYJ2g3kOAQGGTSccgUlCgVaCXz6ECwESASM?= =?us-ascii?q?0gmE1giuBWT5PSGsONg4yRgmBDZAuIoM4h2ieWQqDCp0bpHEZhiUdjjqjKQI?= =?us-ascii?q?EAgQFAg4BAQaBayMrPnBwFTuCaVAXAg6OH0+DIYpZczgCBgEJAQEDCXyLPwG?= =?us-ascii?q?BDgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,309,1610409600"; d="scan'208,217";a="855946687" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 06 Apr 2021 11:12:33 +0000 Received: from mail.cisco.com (xbe-aln-003.cisco.com [173.36.7.18]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 136BCXXc009420 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:12:33 GMT Received: from xfe-aln-003.cisco.com (173.37.135.123) by xbe-aln-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.792.3; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 06:12:32 -0500 Received: from xfe-rcd-003.cisco.com (173.37.227.251) by xfe-aln-003.cisco.com (173.37.135.123) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.792.3; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 06:12:32 -0500 Received: from NAM02-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (72.163.14.9) by xfe-rcd-003.cisco.com (173.37.227.251) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.792.3 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 06:12:32 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=lt2NLK1l0k159sV3lXV8xqh+JIOzFadkO1uhTztzl1Kc3Fo90KJFikoEo4HFS9P8h4oKUgurHZoSQD8tjwdPAFh686/zKwbv8fiUvHNT5Pn2dVN09979rvvr7/s4SHnedX9eM9Dt8jRwFgk1x1T5vx40Wko+Nmf55nNDKefg5GgZYY1ZCqkwOB+TlHsOGVQgmlLcoExb5g8arVkXPNv0Zkd9jx3qNvIledWGc52MYU5Ms6Hix9/xfryEJtEy4szqFFmNegA+ByhMLPo0q/rTcSW9vHbS5/03gm6Uzf/bAyQ5j5Bwky5xCKtRUcQavjkW9OufwOhjtEHluAVC2TeaZg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Tug4sXfQuwzrJ041PQlu2NgKo1mVI44j7dYIPuHTCUI=; b=fsd0POCg9VxkHoT0LtbgS61stgqaHMBu/6aMVk2trMgFoWaXCmBCbZeip0DNDjISOnxjyzOx6cOBz6n+5Rf7PbkAAgPdhb6BmAvTARGPRcpIQXm1YP28qKl7Ktn08VGyB6P3qYezIQeiLvlRpEIRTJlLDhNvk3U/udvYDMnKb1j3FWW0gERGnfHi8j6z7AsSPEZwJ9Tz6NJ7BJs/8OSwDVmlSzoj0odvtCF1WfLvNBEObKVpYp80qVb12yzgIwmYzM/sdutotUG3rExKolq+m7KYgqNd8gmm7wHizL1DVvEAzcWj1Pu3NsN4/ASSCuJkbfsOnyZ/oewk6lepOYDcGw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cisco.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cisco.com; dkim=pass header.d=cisco.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-cisco-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Tug4sXfQuwzrJ041PQlu2NgKo1mVI44j7dYIPuHTCUI=; b=f7T0QddPYi6zMibnzET9wFndFzFgYTVVqKnzpJsrkrpYgedUjWfr61PsqOG8r5tzq5s6E53U91jPQ7MXbU5WqenURSa50+Wn5DTfs/UwwtSR9p4Z/TO+YA+twTmj1v8DeM1Ar9tzKlLzjoLuQR3s3sK2PR5kLkYy2aploJwlalE= Received: from MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:190::17) by MN2PR11MB4661.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:26b::16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.27; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:12:31 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::24c4:4c09:f6f0:5510]) by MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::24c4:4c09:f6f0:5510%2]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:12:31 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHXKDAZb3EHkbMB6ESy4NCgKOniGqqlyogQ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:12:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [82.12.233.180] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 227c654c-b270-497d-a36e-08d8f8ecdf3b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4661: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(136003)(376002)(39860400002)(346002)(396003)(366004)(66574015)(7696005)(9686003)(8936002)(76116006)(86362001)(478600001)(2906002)(53546011)(316002)(83380400001)(9326002)(33656002)(8676002)(110136005)(38100700001)(5660300002)(6506007)(55016002)(186003)(71200400001)(66476007)(64756008)(66446008)(26005)(52536014)(66556008)(66946007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?utf-8?B?WW5oeEFKbEVWbG9Fc0gyRXp5TUVIQTVBYkZ5QzQrSHZtbEhzVzNrOXZ0Y01L?= =?utf-8?B?ZWZlK25HMlZTZlJPQ1NxeGl4TEFOZ1hVbFFXeFR5aGRvQ1lxa1JtTi85UUFn?= =?utf-8?B?Wmh0N2hQMm5kWmZlQ0ZCR0pLU0E0c25RZmliTFdOR0ZYQkVzWjA3eDhtM0pi?= =?utf-8?B?YzMrSmk0Ulg0NG5DN0VPM3YvVXpqL09ta0dJSkdZNURrZXkyYmNycXByTzFm?= =?utf-8?B?c3hqNE9LR2FhYkwxVG51bThFeXVHcmJFRnFZY0pncWVvWFozMEpsVmVaYnRZ?= =?utf-8?B?MUZENlg4ZnIvZnBpekcvbWhXVUNRTmp5RUtXait6dENsOHU4WURjekhubml1?= =?utf-8?B?VEorSWNWNU9QY1pjWEp0bkJGYkp0dGcwb3NlNkRXYy84L1hqVXNsZmhabXdK?= =?utf-8?B?Szc3OVN5T01zTmhrM2dGQzlKK0NVazV1M1VIV01GTTRoN2tRbWpFZDhXVzY1?= =?utf-8?B?UWJFR0l4R2hqK2NmL3lSKzJaazFlVlNzZ0VEMHhjQkxwMm9ydUViNHlaaEVO?= =?utf-8?B?WlBqQVVjWDFXTkNJK3o3SkoxMHpSaG1tQ3kxVlZwR0gyVWdTdDIrNkQ5TDBu?= =?utf-8?B?eXVQWENvU1FVTmNCMzdPUCtNMGRySnRtZ1VMQzFzZWhHdENuTlRKbG5iRFhC?= =?utf-8?B?KytrbTFqK0kzeDA5Q2lhVDAyejJ6NnFXQUxSS3pGbmQvVDloS0hZYlNvZytn?= =?utf-8?B?MU1lWGpHUEx3SVJLNzJoM1VBRVVYMjdxUVY1MTNIOGp5bS8zN050L3dwVlF1?= =?utf-8?B?bTBDRDA2YjBqQTdNeUExcXBhNFB4Yk9CanpwVGNpU09GKzJiV2l5TjhpTGlw?= =?utf-8?B?dC9LRVlvY0NjT3VrbzBrUDYrcUVnU1B5dXplNG1PbHJyMXpmMTFjbzB5amV2?= =?utf-8?B?S0FRL3RvU01taW5BMjU5eFR0VHpiUW1LRTVnL2RINm5IKzhNR3libmtiWUl0?= =?utf-8?B?NWE1MkYrd2tDcm8xOFRUZkdSQWE0M3hRcEtubzR3UWltYUFMRGFDNDB4bkZ6?= =?utf-8?B?VjRNWTgzUWtmaFNBNHRtSEFJaHFqcS9rNFpJR3lkQm1TUFlnSlAvWURZSFYw?= =?utf-8?B?TnlXN2FnRExYa0lVaEVSdHlqb0IvUDV6RXBsOVV0anI3SmlKNDdGTDRWb2hm?= =?utf-8?B?aGFoL0doTjNtUU1TTnBmbW1MOG5Zd2lCdEJTT3NMVzB2cGkwaUFoTXVkdGJp?= =?utf-8?B?MDU1ZGhSdGU4VTF3YjJNbUxiSlQ5Q2YxR1JFQ05aaXBGRS9vdWJOUkdjMFlG?= =?utf-8?B?RWVFR3JvWEtSY1d1WGd3aGFydWgrWHAyWG1EdkFPZUE1U0ErMi90L0pVakpG?= =?utf-8?B?aFFYa3lIR1ZFSkltaUR0UG9pS3MyWElSbTcrU1d3a2N3U3hpeWtsMWNIaWEz?= =?utf-8?B?VnJOS2cweExlTVZ1MjVYTGFaaGlxWnU0Q1lsS3dSTlpGTDB0SDRRaXBPdEVJ?= =?utf-8?B?aUx5ZFVhSnlJVm91cUs3N3p4NSs5MWtsS1R1QmZPalhWQ3NiZGdkc040clF4?= =?utf-8?B?dkkrek00U21USnFid0UxZ0QyR01ZZlBQS1REOXZpekczejdjSTdHUE9BMTZX?= =?utf-8?B?eFU2UkdmRTdFY3hBZHlGbTVsRUU3ck9NZDN5QkFOOGNZWWtydVVSVmFTZTBs?= =?utf-8?B?ZWNQd09NeTFTV0NEdjF3ZkNwclJ6aHp4RWRvRTA5YU93bmRDcFhkY0ZLUVBz?= =?utf-8?B?ZXFvTnEydjUwdkpTM1M2SlhuS0hSYVRuNFpMMjZYbUJzMWFTOXNSTDlNMWQ2?= =?utf-8?Q?k2FqsHFU4dW18qqs/Ih4AMW26+e7QuWwPOHQmsq?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB43668B598495DFDD060D33E2B5769MN2PR11MB4366namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 227c654c-b270-497d-a36e-08d8f8ecdf3b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Apr 2021 11:12:31.2843 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: U6+ibWoGiqmyBucZ9hJde+jxsN83ru3sfHspV7krdbgbK1++FZDccwicAF3EGUT/IqlKb4fXaJNotC6g+zv+oQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4661 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.18, xbe-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 11:12:39 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB43668B598495DFDD060D33E2B5769MN2PR11MB4366namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUm9iLA0KDQpMb29raW5nIGF0IChhbmQgZGlyZWN0bHkgcXVvdGluZyBmcm9tKSBSRkMgMzAw NSwgSSB0aGluayB0aGF0IGl0IG1ha2VzIHNlbnNlIHRvIHNwbGl0IGlldGZAIGludG8gc2VwYXJh dGUgZm9jdXNzZWQgbGlzdHMuDQoNCldlIGFscmVhZHkgaGF2ZToNCuKAnGxhc3QtY2FsbEDigJ0g Zm9yIOKAnExhc3QgQ2FsbCBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyBvZiBwcm9wb3NlZCBwcm90b2NvbCBhY3Rpb25z 4oCdDQrigJxpZXRmLWFubm91bmNl4oCdLCBmb3Ig4oCcQW5ub3VuY2VtZW50cyBvZiBjb25mZXJl bmNlcywgZXZlbnRzLCBvciBhY3Rpdml0aWVzIHRoYXQgYXJlIHNwb25zb3JlZCBvciBlbmRvcnNl ZCBieSB0aGUgSW50ZXJuZXQgU29jaWV0eSBvciBJRVRGLuKAnQ0KDQpJbiBhZGRpdGlvbiB0byB0 aGlzLCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgd2UgY291bGQvc2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgZm91ciBtb3JlIGFsaWFzZXM6 DQoNCiAgMS4gIOKAnGlldGYtdGVjaG5pY2FsQOKAnSBmb3Ig4oCcSXQgZnVydGhlcnMgdGhlIGRl dmVsb3BtZW50IGFuZCBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIG9mIEludGVybmV0IHRlY2hub2xvZ3kgdGhyb3Vn aCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9mIHRlY2huaWNhbCBpc3N1ZXMu4oCdIGFuZCDigJxEaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9m IHRlY2huaWNhbCBpc3N1ZXMgdGhhdCBhcmUgY2FuZGlkYXRlcyBmb3IgSUVURiB3b3JrLA0KICAg ICAgYnV0IGRvIG5vdCB5ZXQgaGF2ZSBhbiBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBlLW1haWwgdmVudWXigJ0NCg0K ICAxLiAg4oCcaWV0Zi1tZWV0aW5nc0DigJ0gZm9yIOKAnFF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhbmQgY2xhcmlmaWNh dGlvbnMgY29uY2VybmluZyBJRVRGIG1lZXRpbmdz4oCdLiAgSXQgcHJvYmFibHkgc2hvdWxkIGF1 dG9tYXRpY2FsbHkgcmVjZWl2ZSBlbWFpbHMgZnJvbSB0aGUgbWVldGluZyBzcGVjaWZpYyBsaXN0 cw0KICAyLiAg4oCcaWV0Zi1wb2xpY3lA4oCdIGZvciDigJxJdCBhbHNvIGhvc3RzIGRpc2N1c3Np b25zIG9mIElFVEYgZGlyZWN0aW9uLCBwb2xpY3ksIGFuZCBwcm9jZWR1cmVzLiDigJ0gYW5kIOKA nERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgSUVURiBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2ZSBwb2xpY2llc+KAnQ0KICAzLiAg4oCc aWV0Zi1kaXNjdXNzQOKAnSBmb3Ig4oCcR2VuZXJhbCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gdGhl IElFVEYsIGNvbnNpZGVyYWJsZSBsYXRpdHVkZSBpcyBhbGxvd2Vk4oCdDQoNClRoaXMgY291bGQg bWVhbiB0aGF0IOKAnGlldGZA4oCdIHNob3VsZCBub3QgZXhpc3QsIG9yIHBlcmhhcHMgaXQgY291 bGQgYmUgYSBub24tcG9zdGFibGUgYWxpYXMgZm9yIGEgc3Vic2V0IG9mIHRoZSBsaXN0cyBhYm92 ZSwgZS5nLiwgcGVyaGFwcyBpZXRmLWFubm91bmNlICsgbGFzdC1jYWxsICsgaWV0Zi10ZWNobmlj YWwgKyBpZXRmLW1lZXRpbmdzLg0KDQpUaGlzIG1pZ2h0IGFsbG93IHRoZSBJRVRGIGNvbW11bml0 eSB0byBiZXR0ZXIgdHVuZSBpbnRvIHdoaWNoIGxpc3RzL3RvcGljcyB0aGV5IHdvdWxkIGxpa2Ug dG8gc3Vic2NyaWJlIHRvLiAgSS5lLiwgaWYgc29tZWJvZHkgaXMgb25seSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGlu IElFVEYgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGV5IHdhbnQgdG8gcHJvZ3Jlc3MgdGVjaG5pY2FsIHN0YW5kYXJkcyB0 aGVuIHRoZXkgY2FuIGhvcGVmdWxseSBhdm9pZCBzb21lIG9mIHRoZSB2ZXJib3NlIG5vbi10ZWNo bmljYWwgdGhyZWFkcyB3aGlsc3Qgc3RpbGwgYmUgYWJsZSB0byBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0ZSBpbiBjb25z dHJ1Y3RpdmUgY3Jvc3MgYXJlYSB0ZWNobmljYWwgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMuDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMsDQpS b2INCg0KDQpGcm9tOiBHZW5kaXNwYXRjaCA8Z2VuZGlzcGF0Y2gtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4g T24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFJvYiBTYXlyZQ0KU2VudDogMDMgQXByaWwgMjAyMSAwMzoyMQ0KVG86IGdl bmRpc3BhdGNoQGlldGYub3JnDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbR2VuZGlzcGF0Y2hdIEVuZGluZyBpZXRmQGll dGYub3JnDQoNCkhpLA0KDQpJJ3ZlIGJlZW4gdGhpbmtpbmcgYWJvdXQgd3JpdGluZyBhbiBJLUQg cHJvcG9zaW5nIHRvIHNodXQgZG93biBpZXRmQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzppZXRmQGlldGYub3Jn Pi4NCg0KQXQgdGhpcyBwb2ludCwgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG1hbnkgb3RoZXIgbGlzdHMgdG8gZGlzY3Vz cyBnZW5lcmFsIElFVEYgaXNzdWVzIChsYXN0LWNhbGxALCBhcmNoQCwgZ2VuZGlzcGF0Y2hALCBl dGMpLiBTbywgdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsIGNhdGNoLWFsbCBwdXJwb3NlIG9mIHRoZSBJRVRGIGxpc3Qg aXMgd2VsbC1oYW5kbGVkIGluIG1hbnksIGlmIG5vdCBhbGwsIGNhc2VzLg0KDQpXaGF0J3MgbGVm dCBvbiB0aGUgZ2VuZXJhbCBJRVRGIGxpc3Qgc2VlbXMgdG8gY29uc2lzdCBvZiBnZW5lcmFsIHNv Y2lldGFsIG9yIGxhbmd1YWdlIGlzc3VlcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBJRVRGIGlzIG5vdCB3ZWxsLXN1aXRl ZCB0byBhZGRyZXNzLiBBZGRpdGlvbmFsbHksIHNvbWUgcGFydGljaXBhbnRzIHNlZW0gdG8gYmUg dGFraW5nIGFkdmFudGFnZSBvZiBpdHMgbGFyZ2UgYXVkaWVuY2UgYW5kIHRoZSBsaXN0J3MgSUVU RiBhZmZpbGlhdGlvbi4gTWFueSBvZiB0aGUgcG9zdHMgc2VlbSBiZXR0ZXIgc3VpdGVkIHRvIGJs b2cgcG9zdHMsIGVtYWlsIG5ld3NsZXR0ZXJzLCBmb3J1bSBwb3N0cywgb3RoZXIgdmVudWVzIHdo ZXJlIHRoZSByZWFkZXJzIGhhdmUgb3B0ZWQgaW4gdG8gc3VjaCBjb250ZW50Lg0KDQpJIGRvbid0 IHdhbnQgdG8gc3BlbmQgdGltZSBvbiB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGlmIEknbSBnb2luZyB0byBnZXQg ZmxhbWVkIGludG8gb3V0ZXIgc3BhY2Ugd2l0aG91dCBnZXR0aW5nIGl0IHB1Ymxpc2hlZCwgYnV0 IEkgdGhpbmsgaXQncyB0aW1lLg0KDQp0aGFua3MsDQpSb2INCg== --_000_MN2PR11MB43668B598495DFDD060D33E2B5769MN2PR11MB4366namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTUgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPHN0eWxl PjwhLS0NCi8qIEZvbnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 V2luZ2RpbmdzOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjUgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDA7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0K CXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2IDMg MiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDE1 IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3JtYWws IGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGNtOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZTox MS4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0KYTpsaW5rLCBzcGFu Lk1zb0h5cGVybGluaw0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6OTk7DQoJY29sb3I6Ymx1ZTsNCgl0 ZXh0LWRlY29yYXRpb246dW5kZXJsaW5lO30NCnAuTXNvTGlzdFBhcmFncmFwaCwgbGkuTXNvTGlz dFBhcmFncmFwaCwgZGl2Lk1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5OjM0 Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi10b3A6MGNtOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1yaWdodDowY207DQoJbWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTow Y207DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MzYuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1p bHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFpbFN0eWxlMTgNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxl LXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtcmVwbHk7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7 DQoJY29sb3I6d2luZG93dGV4dDt9DQouTXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVsdA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpl eHBvcnQtb25seTsNCgltc28tZmFyZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFnZTpFTi1VUzt9DQpAcGFnZSBXb3JkU2Vj dGlvbjENCgl7c2l6ZTo2MTIuMHB0IDc5Mi4wcHQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luOjcyLjBwdCA3Mi4wcHQgNzIu MHB0IDcyLjBwdDt9DQpkaXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6V29yZFNlY3Rpb24xO30NCi8q IExpc3QgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBsaXN0IGwwDQoJe21zby1saXN0LWlkOjgyMzU0NDA3MTsN Cgltc28tbGlzdC10eXBlOmh5YnJpZDsNCgltc28tbGlzdC10ZW1wbGF0ZS1pZHM6LTEzMTEzMjE5 MzAgLTIwNzA4NTI0NCAxMzQ4MDc1NzcgMTM0ODA3NTc5IDEzNDgwNzU2NyAxMzQ4MDc1NzcgMTM0 ODA3NTc5IDEzNDgwNzU2NyAxMzQ4MDc1NzcgMTM0ODA3NTc5O30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsMQ0K CXttc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDoiXCglMVwpIjsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCglt c28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MjMuMHB0Ow0KCXRl eHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWwyDQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXIt Zm9ybWF0OmFscGhhLWxvd2VyOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZl bC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDo1OS4wcHQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRl bnQ6LTE4LjBwdDt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDMNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6 cm9tYW4tbG93ZXI7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJl ci1wb3NpdGlvbjpyaWdodDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDo5NS4wcHQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTku MHB0O30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNA0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28t bGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MTMxLjBwdDsNCgl0ZXh0 LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0O30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZv cm1hdDphbHBoYS1sb3dlcjsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwt bnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MTY3LjBwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVu dDotMTguMHB0O30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNg0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpy b21hbi1sb3dlcjsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVy LXBvc2l0aW9uOnJpZ2h0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjIwMy4wcHQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTku MHB0O30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNw0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28t bGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MjM5LjBwdDsNCgl0ZXh0 LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0O30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsOA0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZv cm1hdDphbHBoYS1sb3dlcjsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwt bnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6Mjc1LjBwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVu dDotMTguMHB0O30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsOQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpy b21hbi1sb3dlcjsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVy LXBvc2l0aW9uOnJpZ2h0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjMxMS4wcHQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTku MHB0O30NCkBsaXN0IGwxDQoJe21zby1saXN0LWlkOjk2NjI3Njc3NjsNCgltc28tbGlzdC10eXBl Omh5YnJpZDsNCgltc28tbGlzdC10ZW1wbGF0ZS1pZHM6MTY1NjY1MzQ5OCAtMjA3MDg1MjQ0IDEz NDgwNzU3NyAxMzQ4MDc1NzkgMTM0ODA3NTY3IDEzNDgwNzU3NyAxMzQ4MDc1NzkgMTM0ODA3NTY3 IDEzNDgwNzU3NyAxMzQ4MDc1Nzk7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDE6bGV2ZWwxDQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0 OiJcKCUxXCkiOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXIt cG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoyMy4wcHQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBw dDt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMTpsZXZlbDINCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YWxwaGEtbG93 ZXI7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlv bjpsZWZ0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjU5LjBwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0O30NCkBs aXN0IGwxOmxldmVsMw0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpyb21hbi1sb3dlcjsNCglt c28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOnJpZ2h0 Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0Ojk1LjBwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotOS4wcHQ7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDE6 bGV2ZWw0DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9z aXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoxMzEuMHB0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7 fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDE6bGV2ZWw1DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmFscGhhLWxvd2Vy Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246 bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoxNjcuMHB0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7fQ0KQGxp c3QgbDE6bGV2ZWw2DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OnJvbWFuLWxvd2VyOw0KCW1z by1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246cmlnaHQ7 DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MjAzLjBwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotOS4wcHQ7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDE6 bGV2ZWw3DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9z aXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoyMzkuMHB0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7 fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDE6bGV2ZWw4DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmFscGhhLWxvd2Vy Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246 bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoyNzUuMHB0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7fQ0KQGxp c3QgbDE6bGV2ZWw5DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OnJvbWFuLWxvd2VyOw0KCW1z by1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246cmlnaHQ7 DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MzExLjBwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotOS4wcHQ7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDIN Cgl7bXNvLWxpc3QtaWQ6MTU2NDk1MzA0NTsNCgltc28tbGlzdC10eXBlOmh5YnJpZDsNCgltc28t bGlzdC10ZW1wbGF0ZS1pZHM6MjUyMjQyMzc2IC01OTIwMDgyMDYgMTM0ODA3NTU1IDEzNDgwNzU1 NyAxMzQ4MDc1NTMgMTM0ODA3NTU1IDEzNDgwNzU1NyAxMzQ4MDc1NTMgMTM0ODA3NTU1IDEzNDgw NzU1Nzt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMjpsZXZlbDENCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLXN0YXJ0LWF0OjU7DQoJbXNvLWxl dmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Oi07DQoJbXNvLWxldmVs LXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQt aW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7DQoJbXNv LWZhcmVhc3QtZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMjpsZXZlbDINCgl7bXNvLWxl dmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Om87DQoJbXNvLWxldmVs LXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQt aW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNvdXJpZXIgTmV3Ijt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMjps ZXZlbDMNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0 Ou+CpzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0 aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7 fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDI6bGV2ZWw0DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCglt c28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgrc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVs LW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1p bHk6U3ltYm9sO30NCkBsaXN0IGwyOmxldmVsNQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpi dWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6bzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCglt c28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDsNCglm b250LWZhbWlseToiQ291cmllciBOZXciO30NCkBsaXN0IGwyOmxldmVsNg0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwt bnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674KnOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10 YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWlu ZGVudDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OldpbmdkaW5nczt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMjpsZXZlbDcN Cgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CtzsN Cgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxl ZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpTeW1ib2w7fQ0KQGxpc3Qg bDI6bGV2ZWw4DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwt dGV4dDpvOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9z aXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDb3VyaWVy IE5ldyI7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDI6bGV2ZWw5DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxl dDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgqc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNv LWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9u dC1mYW1pbHk6V2luZ2RpbmdzO30NCkBsaXN0IGwzDQoJe21zby1saXN0LWlkOjE4NzAyMTcyOTI7 DQoJbXNvLWxpc3QtdHlwZTpoeWJyaWQ7DQoJbXNvLWxpc3QtdGVtcGxhdGUtaWRzOi01MDYyNjg5 OTIgNzk2MDM1Mzg2IDEzNDgwNzU3NyAxMzQ4MDc1NzkgMTM0ODA3NTY3IDEzNDgwNzU3NyAxMzQ4 MDc1NzkgMTM0ODA3NTY3IDEzNDgwNzU3NyAxMzQ4MDc1Nzk7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDM6bGV2ZWwxDQoJ e21zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0OiJcKCUxXCkiOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1z by1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0O30NCkBs aXN0IGwzOmxldmVsMg0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDphbHBoYS1sb3dlcjsNCglt c28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7 DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMzpsZXZlbDMNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51 bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6cm9tYW4tbG93ZXI7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNv LWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpyaWdodDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotOS4wcHQ7fQ0KQGxp c3QgbDM6bGV2ZWw0DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1i ZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0O30NCkBsaXN0IGwzOmxldmVs NQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDphbHBoYS1sb3dlcjsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFi LXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRl bnQ6LTE4LjBwdDt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMzpsZXZlbDYNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6 cm9tYW4tbG93ZXI7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJl ci1wb3NpdGlvbjpyaWdodDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotOS4wcHQ7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDM6bGV2ZWw3 DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246 bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0O30NCkBsaXN0IGwzOmxldmVsOA0KCXttc28tbGV2 ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDphbHBoYS1sb3dlcjsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsN Cgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDt9 DQpAbGlzdCBsMzpsZXZlbDkNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6cm9tYW4tbG93ZXI7 DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpy aWdodDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotOS4wcHQ7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDQNCgl7bXNvLWxpc3QtaWQ6MjAx ODM0MTgwMjsNCgltc28tbGlzdC10eXBlOmh5YnJpZDsNCgltc28tbGlzdC10ZW1wbGF0ZS1pZHM6 MjA4OTQyOTQ1MCAxNDg5Njc0ODI2IDEzNDgwNzU1NSAxMzQ4MDc1NTcgMTM0ODA3NTUzIDEzNDgw NzU1NSAxMzQ4MDc1NTcgMTM0ODA3NTUzIDEzNDgwNzU1NSAxMzQ4MDc1NTc7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDQ6 bGV2ZWwxDQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1zdGFydC1hdDo1Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0 OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDotOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0K CW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoyMC41cHQ7DQoJ dGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsN Cgltc28tZmFyZWFzdC1mb250LWZhbWlseTpDYWxpYnJpO30NCkBsaXN0IGw0OmxldmVsMg0KCXtt c28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6bzsNCgltc28t bGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJ bWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6NTYuNXB0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 IkNvdXJpZXIgTmV3Ijt9DQpAbGlzdCBsNDpsZXZlbDMNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3Jt YXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CpzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9u ZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6OTIuNXB0 Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6V2luZ2RpbmdzO30NCkBsaXN0 IGw0OmxldmVsNA0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVs LXRleHQ674K3Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXIt cG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoxMjguNXB0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4w cHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6U3ltYm9sO30NCkBsaXN0IGw0OmxldmVsNQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwt bnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6bzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFi LXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxl ZnQ6MTY0LjVwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDb3VyaWVy IE5ldyI7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDQ6bGV2ZWw2DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxl dDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgqc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNv LWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjIwMC41cHQ7DQoJdGV4 dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDQ6bGV2 ZWw3DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrv grc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlv bjpsZWZ0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjIzNi41cHQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDsNCglm b250LWZhbWlseTpTeW1ib2w7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDQ6bGV2ZWw4DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXIt Zm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDpvOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpu b25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoyNzIu NXB0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNvdXJpZXIgTmV3Ijt9 DQpAbGlzdCBsNDpsZXZlbDkNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1z by1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CpzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwt bnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MzA4LjVwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVu dDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OldpbmdkaW5nczt9DQpAbGlzdCBsNQ0KCXttc28tbGlz dC1pZDoyMDc2NTg4MzE1Ow0KCW1zby1saXN0LXR5cGU6aHlicmlkOw0KCW1zby1saXN0LXRlbXBs YXRlLWlkczo4MjkxNzk3MDQgMTIwOTY5Nzc5MiAxMzQ4MDc1NTUgMTM0ODA3NTU3IDEzNDgwNzU1 MyAxMzQ4MDc1NTUgMTM0ODA3NTU3IDEzNDgwNzU1MyAxMzQ4MDc1NTUgMTM0ODA3NTU3O30NCkBs aXN0IGw1OmxldmVsMQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtc3RhcnQtYXQ6NTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVy LWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6LTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6 bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MjAu NXB0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMt c2VyaWY7DQoJbXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTt9DQpAbGlzdCBsNTpsZXZl bDINCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Om87 DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjps ZWZ0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjU2LjVwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQt ZmFtaWx5OiJDb3VyaWVyIE5ldyI7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDU6bGV2ZWwzDQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1i ZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgqc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1z dG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0 OjkyLjVwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OldpbmdkaW5nczt9 DQpAbGlzdCBsNTpsZXZlbDQNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1z by1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CtzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwt bnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MTI4LjVwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVu dDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OlN5bWJvbDt9DQpAbGlzdCBsNTpsZXZlbDUNCgl7bXNv LWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Om87DQoJbXNvLWxl dmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCW1h cmdpbi1sZWZ0OjE2NC41cHQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToi Q291cmllciBOZXciO30NCkBsaXN0IGw1OmxldmVsNg0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1h dDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674KnOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25l Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoyMDAuNXB0 Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6V2luZ2RpbmdzO30NCkBsaXN0 IGw1OmxldmVsNw0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVs LXRleHQ674K3Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXIt cG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDoyMzYuNXB0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4w cHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6U3ltYm9sO30NCkBsaXN0IGw1OmxldmVsOA0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwt bnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6bzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFi LXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWxl ZnQ6MjcyLjVwdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDb3VyaWVy IE5ldyI7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDU6bGV2ZWw5DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxl dDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgqc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNv LWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjMwOC41cHQ7DQoJdGV4 dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7fQ0Kb2wNCgl7bWFyZ2lu LWJvdHRvbTowY207fQ0KdWwNCgl7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowY207fQ0KLS0+PC9zdHlsZT48IS0t W2lmIGd0ZSBtc28gOV0+PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBlZGVmYXVsdHMgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQiIHNwaWRt YXg9IjEwMjYiIC8+DQo8L3htbD48IVtlbmRpZl0tLT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28gOV0+PHhtbD4N CjxvOnNoYXBlbGF5b3V0IHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0Ij4NCjxvOmlkbWFwIHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0IiBkYXRh PSIxIiAvPg0KPC9vOnNoYXBlbGF5b3V0PjwveG1sPjwhW2VuZGlmXS0tPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0KPGJv ZHkgbGFuZz0iRU4tR0IiIGxpbms9ImJsdWUiIHZsaW5rPSJwdXJwbGUiIHN0eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdy YXA6YnJlYWstd29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9Im1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdlOkVOLVVTIj5IaSBSb2Is PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9 Im1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdlOkVOLVVTIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+ DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0ibXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtbGFuZ3VhZ2U6 RU4tVVMiPkxvb2tpbmcgYXQgKGFuZCBkaXJlY3RseSBxdW90aW5nIGZyb20pIFJGQyAzMDA1LCBJ IHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgaXQgbWFrZXMgc2Vuc2UgdG8gc3BsaXQgaWV0ZkAgaW50byBzZXBhcmF0ZSBm b2N1c3NlZCBsaXN0cy48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFs Ij48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0ibXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtbGFuZ3VhZ2U6RU4tVVMiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9v OnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJtc28tZmFy ZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFnZTpFTi1VUyI+V2UgYWxyZWFkeSBoYXZlOjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwv cD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJtc28tZmFyZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFn ZTpFTi1VUyI+4oCcbGFzdC1jYWxsQOKAnSBmb3Ig4oCcTGFzdCBDYWxsIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zIG9m IHByb3Bvc2VkIHByb3RvY29sIGFjdGlvbnPigJ08bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBj bGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0ibXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtbGFuZ3VhZ2U6RU4tVVMi PuKAnGlldGYtYW5ub3VuY2XigJ0sIGZvciDigJxBbm5vdW5jZW1lbnRzIG9mIGNvbmZlcmVuY2Vz LCBldmVudHMsIG9yIGFjdGl2aXRpZXMgdGhhdCBhcmUgc3BvbnNvcmVkIG9yIGVuZG9yc2VkIGJ5 IHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCBTb2NpZXR5IG9yIElFVEYu4oCdPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0K PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9Im1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdlOkVO LVVTIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48 c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0ibXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtbGFuZ3VhZ2U6RU4tVVMiPkluIGFkZGl0aW9uIHRvIHRo aXMsIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCB3ZSBjb3VsZC9zaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBmb3VyIG1vcmUgYWxpYXNlczo8 bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8b2wgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi10b3A6MGNtIiBzdGFydD0i MSIgdHlwZT0iMSI+DQo8bGkgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4t bGVmdDotMTMuMHB0O21zby1saXN0OmwxIGxldmVsMSBsZm81Ij4NCjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJtc28t ZmFyZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFnZTpFTi1VUyI+4oCcaWV0Zi10ZWNobmljYWxA4oCdIGZvciDigJxJdCBm dXJ0aGVycyB0aGUgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgYW5kIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24gb2YgSW50ZXJuZXQgdGVj aG5vbG9neSB0aHJvdWdoIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGlzc3Vlcy7igJ0gYW5kIOKA nERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGlzc3VlcyB0aGF0IGFyZSBjYW5kaWRhdGVzIGZvciBJ RVRGIHdvcmssPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9saT48L29sPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1h bCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9Im1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdlOkVOLVVTIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsm bmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgYnV0IGRvIG5vdCB5ZXQgaGF2ZSBhbiBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBlLW1h aWwgdmVudWXigJ08bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8b2wgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi10b3A6 MGNtIiBzdGFydD0iMiIgdHlwZT0iMSI+DQo8bGkgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgiIHN0 eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVmdDotMTMuMHB0O21zby1saXN0OmwxIGxldmVsMSBsZm81Ij4NCjxzcGFu IHN0eWxlPSJtc28tZmFyZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFnZTpFTi1VUyI+4oCcaWV0Zi1tZWV0aW5nc0DigJ0g Zm9yIOKAnFF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhbmQgY2xhcmlmaWNhdGlvbnMgY29uY2VybmluZyBJRVRGIG1lZXRp bmdz4oCdLiZuYnNwOyBJdCBwcm9iYWJseSBzaG91bGQgYXV0b21hdGljYWxseSByZWNlaXZlIGVt YWlscyBmcm9tIHRoZSBtZWV0aW5nIHNwZWNpZmljIGxpc3RzDQo8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48 L2xpPjxsaSBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTGlzdFBhcmFncmFwaCIgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0Oi0xMy4w cHQ7bXNvLWxpc3Q6bDEgbGV2ZWwxIGxmbzUiPg0KPHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9Im1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxh bmd1YWdlOkVOLVVTIj7igJxpZXRmLXBvbGljeUDigJ0gZm9yIOKAnEl0IGFsc28gaG9zdHMgZGlz Y3Vzc2lvbnMgb2YgSUVURiBkaXJlY3Rpb24sIHBvbGljeSwgYW5kIHByb2NlZHVyZXMuIOKAnSBh bmQg4oCcRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBJRVRGIGFkbWluaXN0cmF0aXZlIHBvbGljaWVz4oCdPG86cD48 L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9saT48bGkgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJn aW4tbGVmdDotMTMuMHB0O21zby1saXN0OmwxIGxldmVsMSBsZm81Ij4NCjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJt c28tZmFyZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFnZTpFTi1VUyI+4oCcaWV0Zi1kaXNjdXNzQOKAnSBmb3Ig4oCcR2Vu ZXJhbCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIElFVEYsIGNvbnNpZGVyYWJsZSBsYXRpdHVk ZSBpcyBhbGxvd2Vk4oCdPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9saT48L29sPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9Im1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdlOkVOLVVTIj48bzpwPiZu YnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0i bXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtbGFuZ3VhZ2U6RU4tVVMiPlRoaXMgY291bGQgbWVhbiB0aGF0IOKAnGlldGZA 4oCdIHNob3VsZCBub3QgZXhpc3QsIG9yIHBlcmhhcHMgaXQgY291bGQgYmUgYSBub24tcG9zdGFi bGUgYWxpYXMgZm9yIGEgc3Vic2V0IG9mIHRoZSBsaXN0cyBhYm92ZSwgZS5nLiwgcGVyaGFwcyBp ZXRmLWFubm91bmNlICsgbGFzdC1jYWxsICsgaWV0Zi10ZWNobmljYWwgKyBpZXRmLW1lZXRpbmdz LjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxl PSJtc28tZmFyZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFnZTpFTi1VUyI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9w Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9Im1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdl OkVOLVVTIj5UaGlzIG1pZ2h0IGFsbG93IHRoZSBJRVRGIGNvbW11bml0eSB0byBiZXR0ZXIgdHVu ZSBpbnRvIHdoaWNoIGxpc3RzL3RvcGljcyB0aGV5IHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gc3Vic2NyaWJlIHRv LiZuYnNwOyBJLmUuLCBpZiBzb21lYm9keSBpcyBvbmx5IGludGVyZXN0ZWQgaW4gSUVURiBiZWNh dXNlIHRoZXkgd2FudCB0byBwcm9ncmVzcyB0ZWNobmljYWwgc3RhbmRhcmRzDQogdGhlbiB0aGV5 IGNhbiBob3BlZnVsbHkgYXZvaWQgc29tZSBvZiB0aGUgdmVyYm9zZSBub24tdGVjaG5pY2FsIHRo cmVhZHMgd2hpbHN0IHN0aWxsIGJlIGFibGUgdG8gcGFydGljaXBhdGUgaW4gY29uc3RydWN0aXZl IGNyb3NzIGFyZWEgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4N CjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJtc28tZmFyZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFnZTpF Ti1VUyI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+ PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9Im1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdlOkVOLVVTIj5SZWdhcmRzLDxvOnA+PC9v OnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJtc28tZmFy ZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFnZTpFTi1VUyI+Um9iPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9Im1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdlOkVOLVVTIj48bzpw PiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHls ZT0ibXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtbGFuZ3VhZ2U6RU4tVVMiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwv cD4NCjxkaXYgc3R5bGU9ImJvcmRlcjpub25lO2JvcmRlci1sZWZ0OnNvbGlkIGJsdWUgMS41cHQ7 cGFkZGluZzowY20gMGNtIDBjbSA0LjBwdCI+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPGRpdiBzdHlsZT0iYm9yZGVyOm5v bmU7Ym9yZGVyLXRvcDpzb2xpZCAjRTFFMUUxIDEuMHB0O3BhZGRpbmc6My4wcHQgMGNtIDBjbSAw Y20iPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PGI+PHNwYW4gbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiPkZyb206PC9z cGFuPjwvYj48c3BhbiBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyI+IEdlbmRpc3BhdGNoICZsdDtnZW5kaXNwYXRjaC1i b3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnJmd0Ow0KPGI+T24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIDwvYj5Sb2IgU2F5cmU8YnI+DQo8 Yj5TZW50OjwvYj4gMDMgQXByaWwgMjAyMSAwMzoyMTxicj4NCjxiPlRvOjwvYj4gZ2VuZGlzcGF0 Y2hAaWV0Zi5vcmc8YnI+DQo8Yj5TdWJqZWN0OjwvYj4gW0dlbmRpc3BhdGNoXSBFbmRpbmcgaWV0 ZkBpZXRmLm9yZzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFz cz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNv Tm9ybWFsIj5IaSw8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48 bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwi PkkndmUgYmVlbiB0aGlua2luZyBhYm91dCB3cml0aW5nIGFuIEktRCBwcm9wb3NpbmcmbmJzcDt0 byBzaHV0IGRvd24NCjxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzppZXRmQGlldGYub3JnIj5pZXRmQGlldGYub3Jn PC9hPi48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwi PjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1h bCI+QXQgdGhpcyBwb2ludCwgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG1hbnkgb3RoZXIgbGlzdHMgdG8gZGlzY3VzcyBn ZW5lcmFsIElFVEYgaXNzdWVzIChsYXN0LWNhbGxALCBhcmNoQCwgZ2VuZGlzcGF0Y2hALCBldGMp LiBTbywgdGhlJm5ic3A7b3JpZ2luYWwgY2F0Y2gtYWxsIHB1cnBvc2Ugb2YgdGhlIElFVEYgbGlz dCBpcyB3ZWxsLWhhbmRsZWQgaW4gbWFueSwgaWYgbm90IGFsbCwgY2FzZXMuPG86cD48L286cD48 L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpw PjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPldoYXQncyBsZWZ0IG9u IHRoZSBnZW5lcmFsIElFVEYgbGlzdCBzZWVtcyB0byBjb25zaXN0IG9mIGdlbmVyYWwgc29jaWV0 YWwgb3IgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgaXNzdWVzIHRoYXQgdGhlIElFVEYgaXMgbm90IHdlbGwtc3VpdGVkIHRv IGFkZHJlc3MuIEFkZGl0aW9uYWxseSwgc29tZSBwYXJ0aWNpcGFudHMgc2VlbSB0byBiZSB0YWtp bmcgYWR2YW50YWdlIG9mIGl0cyBsYXJnZSBhdWRpZW5jZSBhbmQgdGhlIGxpc3QncyBJRVRGDQog YWZmaWxpYXRpb24uIE1hbnkgb2YgdGhlIHBvc3RzIHNlZW0gYmV0dGVyIHN1aXRlZCB0byBibG9n IHBvc3RzLCBlbWFpbCBuZXdzbGV0dGVycywgZm9ydW0gcG9zdHMsIG90aGVyIHZlbnVlcyB3aGVy ZSB0aGUgcmVhZGVycyBoYXZlIG9wdGVkIGluIHRvIHN1Y2ggY29udGVudC48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwv cD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+ PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+SSBkb24ndCB3YW50IHRv IHNwZW5kIHRpbWUgb24gdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBpZiBJJ20gZ29pbmcgdG8gZ2V0IGZsYW1lZCBp bnRvIG91dGVyIHNwYWNlIHdpdGhvdXQgZ2V0dGluZyZuYnNwO2l0IHB1Ymxpc2hlZCwgYnV0IEkg dGhpbmsgaXQncyB0aW1lLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFz cz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj50aGFua3MsPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBj bGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj5Sb2ImbmJzcDs8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+ DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_MN2PR11MB43668B598495DFDD060D33E2B5769MN2PR11MB4366namp_-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 06:37:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BCC53A2196 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 06:37:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id De0-vXoKRIWU for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 06:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71D583A2193 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 06:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3B55C00C6; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 09:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 09:37:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=7mBjVkTlEoEMjQaL8EEbQfqeThHHitavPtNf5zAdw qM=; b=oub6gN/kHi3wNeBzz1QcR0468S2mqFArsWCe9+IDvFxGEBMKdWk+9bbLZ W00FI5p3bCV7gL7kncH2KkqOHhVPhhnXhe4wKq4c8Jmot1D0OlXOWVi1xHeqfori yWXqP/oSQOJxy/cMGYdaAgEF20UWfNBMG7IImPJELX0PzGmt7lanz9r+SNdmQy+s 4cpGIPZ8Wx9MuXQ2BwERbtWWvDS1tXNgEKUAOI3/u3zSYCUDIZ/qaTerspz8oWq+ AL0DVX4FJL7juTuGHHdQQXFN6LebLVxW9pMgo71c5przXA7OJUibcLDajIN6n5YD AafDpChRGmG9aqn4NKC5mSAVyYASA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejhedgudefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptgfgggfuhfgjfffkfhfvofesrgejmherhhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfdthfffffeuvdefgeeuffekieeugfejkeehvdelueeu leeliedufefffedvtdelnecukfhppedujedvrdehkedrudefiedrhedvnecuvehluhhsth gvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [48.241.231.29] (unknown [172.58.136.52]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 91C02108005F; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 09:37:16 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2714080D-F0F5-4771-B8D0-ED4CC00F04DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Keith Moore In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 09:37:10 -0400 Cc: Rob Sayre , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-Id: <7B5903C7-55DC-4378-A6A5-A914CB23C3B8@network-heretics.com> References: To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18C66) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 13:37:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail-2714080D-F0F5-4771-B8D0-ED4CC00F04DB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Apr 6, 2021, at 7:12 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: >=20 > =20 >=20 > Looking at (and directly quoting from) RFC 3005, I think that it makes sen= se to split ietf@ into separate focussed lists. >=20 I respect and understand to some degree the desire of some IETF participants= to =E2=80=9Cstay in the loop=E2=80=9D on discussions of truly general inter= ests while avoiding some kinds of ratholes, flame wars, or discussion of top= ics they consider irrelevant. But I find IETF discussion already too fragme= nted as it is, and the current divisions between lists seem poorly chosen to= me. For instance, I don=E2=80=99t want to scan through all the messages in= last call or announce, but I would like to be able to watch discussion abou= t particular documents or working groups. Also the endless =E2=80=9Cmove th= e conversation to other list X=E2=80=9D instructions are cumbersome and have= a chilling effect on the discussion- splitting it up and discouraging some p= articipants from following even if they want to. I do think we need some kind of topic filtering but I think we=E2=80=99ve re= ached a point of diminishing returns with separate mailing lists. Keith= --Apple-Mail-2714080D-F0F5-4771-B8D0-ED4CC00F04DB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Apr 6, 2021, at 7:12 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.c= om@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

Looking at= (and directly quoting from) RFC 3005, I think that it makes sense to split i= etf@ into separate focussed lists.

I respe= ct and understand to some degree the desire of some IETF participants to =E2= =80=9Cstay in the loop=E2=80=9D on discussions of truly general interests wh= ile avoiding some kinds of ratholes, flame wars, or discussion of topics the= y consider irrelevant.  But I find IETF discussion already too fragment= ed as it is, and the current divisions between lists seem poorly chosen to m= e.  For instance, I don=E2=80=99t want to scan through all the messages= in last call or announce, but I would like to be able to watch discussion a= bout particular documents or working groups.  Also the endless =E2=80=9C= move the conversation to other list X=E2=80=9D instructions are cumbersome a= nd have a chilling effect on the discussion- splitting it up and discouragin= g some participants from following even if they want to.

I do think we need some kind of topic filtering but I think we=E2=80=99= ve reached a point of diminishing returns with separate mailing lists.
=

Keith
= --Apple-Mail-2714080D-F0F5-4771-B8D0-ED4CC00F04DB-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 07:05:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41D03A2284 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 07:05:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2B-hPoq4N8hL for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 07:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EE593A227D for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 07:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122333.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 136E0SX7026501; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:05:46 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=MXM9Y9DS8pURfw2UqDgucAlfaGDc4hhEtb3zfBjRRIk=; b=RMD1+c7DmpxRWDUj8OXk/npT5DCXvski8RvuglPGOeJGHsUmey4JBjAYIzYDfiEX3l/c sTnDzmhzjNcOLE6oeEZgZy64QY1Bl7PgnXY3q9pkFTitERkBbdXfLkxRnxbcxD1lLwhQ B3ax2UFzn19M0BFyVqVJdEw8jvJCvyHEKiAhJKGL5PB3DqqBm6fn/8peEbG0Dyzr4kFC kXx8+V/i3B+cER35EpSILhE3jMg8JHcjyif71Hpr+oKdp1DiO2mLzn2AEDNdtUMtnQeQ 8fpxG7yGuH+l+uinCziUsybe5fnMebKfGGu0W+qeVac0w0gWx2VDTCsoq5ys7ARonGTc aA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint1 (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [184.51.33.18] (may be forged)) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 37r8f5321q-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:05:46 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 136E4JD3031056; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:05:45 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.33]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 37q2u5phra-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 10:05:45 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:05:44 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.012; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:05:44 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Keith Moore , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" CC: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Rob Sayre Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHXKDAT+puxFm5+c0mnHgx6RTeegaqnnieAgAAoagD//8TsgA== Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:05:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2567A6BF-8628-40E8-991A-8DBE80F11E49@akamai.com> References: <7B5903C7-55DC-4378-A6A5-A914CB23C3B8@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <7B5903C7-55DC-4378-A6A5-A914CB23C3B8@network-heretics.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.48.21040401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2567A6BF862840E8991A8DBE80F11E49akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_03:2021-04-01, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=827 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104030000 definitions=main-2104060099 X-Proofpoint-GUID: rngGGUlq7iDaHOoQLoekfy7b96XL_Hmt X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: rngGGUlq7iDaHOoQLoekfy7b96XL_Hmt X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_03:2021-04-01, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=735 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104030000 definitions=main-2104060098 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.18) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 14:05:53 -0000 --_000_2567A6BF862840E8991A8DBE80F11E49akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PkkgZG8gdGhpbmsgd2UgbmVlZCBzb21lIGtpbmQgb2YgdG9waWMgZmlsdGVyaW5nIGJ1dCBJIHRo aW5rIHdl4oCZdmUgcmVhY2hlZCBhIHBvaW50IG9mIGRpbWluaXNoaW5nIHJldHVybnMgd2l0aCBz ZXBhcmF0ZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3RzLg0KDQpJIGFncmVlLg0KDQpBdCBpdHMgd29yc3QsIGl0IGJl Y29tZXMgYSBraW5kIG9mIHN0aWNrIHlvdXIgZmluZ2VycyBpbiB5b3VyIGVhcnMgYW5kIHNheSDi gJxsYSBsYSBsYSBJIGNhbuKAmXQgaGVhciB5b3Uu4oCdDQo= --_000_2567A6BF862840E8991A8DBE80F11E49akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2 IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToy IDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3Jt YWwsIGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGluOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6 ZToxMS4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFp bFN0eWxlMTgNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtcmVwbHk7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7DQoJY29sb3I6d2luZG93dGV4dDt9DQouTXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVs dA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpleHBvcnQtb25seTsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O30NCkBw YWdlIFdvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtzaXplOjguNWluIDExLjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW46MS4waW4gMS4w aW4gMS4waW4gMS4waW47fQ0KZGl2LldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtwYWdlOldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMTt9 DQotLT48L3N0eWxlPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0KPGJvZHkgbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiIGxpbms9IiMwNTYzQzEi IHZsaW5rPSIjOTU0RjcyIiBzdHlsZT0id29yZC13cmFwOmJyZWFrLXdvcmQiPg0KPGRpdiBjbGFz cz0iV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xIj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48Yj48c3BhbiBz dHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdCI+Jmd0Ozwvc3Bhbj48L2I+SSBkbyB0aGluayB3ZSBuZWVk IHNvbWUga2luZCBvZiB0b3BpYyBmaWx0ZXJpbmcgYnV0IEkgdGhpbmsgd2XigJl2ZSByZWFjaGVk IGEgcG9pbnQgb2YgZGltaW5pc2hpbmcgcmV0dXJucyB3aXRoIHNlcGFyYXRlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dHMuPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48 bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPkkgYWdyZWUuPG86cD48 L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxw IGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPkF0IGl0cyB3b3JzdCwgaXQgYmVjb21lcyBhIGtpbmQgb2Ygc3Rp Y2sgeW91ciBmaW5nZXJzIGluIHlvdXIgZWFycyBhbmQgc2F5IOKAnGxhIGxhIGxhIEkgY2Fu4oCZ dCBoZWFyIHlvdS7igJ08bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8 L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_2567A6BF862840E8991A8DBE80F11E49akamaicom_-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 09:54:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36453A28CC for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 09:54:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wqpNIqS_jfft for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 09:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC9023A28CA for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 09:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7332ADF3F37E; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:54:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iYoCAGLknZ4G; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:54:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.27] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E65DDF3F370; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:54:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Pete Resnick To: Keith Moore Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 11:54:44 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5786) Message-ID: <3260399A-5140-4BE7-A3B8-3A634204C527@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: <072e17a2-17bf-c46d-0131-82a4b9ef3ab8@network-heretics.com> References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> <072e17a2-17bf-c46d-0131-82a4b9ef3ab8@network-heretics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_C13F2EA4-6B33-49E3-94A5-BA3456D89BAB_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 16:54:55 -0000 --=_MailMate_C13F2EA4-6B33-49E3-94A5-BA3456D89BAB_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [Hopefully obvious, but with no hat on.] Some of the things you mention can be done with current tools, though admittedly not all of them are the easiest to use. For example: On 3 Apr 2021, at 23:27, Keith Moore wrote: > On 4/3/21 12:54 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> Rather than view this as a complete negative, I suggest that we take >> this as a challenge to find an industry-leading way to improve >> overall decision making and discourse in an environment where rough >> consensus matters, without us getting too… rough. > > I have been wondering for awhile whether some enhancements to our > means of distributing email to subscribers could yield a better > experience for ietf@ in particular and perhaps other lists also. > Imagine that instead of the list simply sending every message to every > subscriber, the list could do per-subscriber filtering according to > each subscriber's preferences.   Then a reader who got tired of a > certain thread could press a "Don't show me any more messages from > this thread" button.  The messages would still be archived so they > wouldn't be inaccessible to the reader, but the reader wouldn't be > interrupted by seeing such messages arrive or need to bother with > deleting. Two things here: First, you'll note that in the mailman options for every list, there's a box which says: ----- **Which topic categories would you like to subscribe to?** By selecting one or more topics, you can filter the traffic on the mailing list, so as to receive only a subset of the messages. If a message matches one of your selected topics, then you will get the message, otherwise you will not. If a message does not match any topic, the delivery rule depends on the setting of the option below. If you do not select any topics of interest, you will get all the messages sent to the mailing list. ----- The only problem here is that topics are defined by the list admin, which takes some work, and you can only update which topics you want to subscribe to through the web interface, which is a bit of a pain. However, there is a second possibility, and it applies a bit to some of the below: There is now imap.ietf.org running an IMAP server containing all of the IETF list archives. It's all I use now to read my IETF list mail; I have turned off delivery of messages to my Inbox. Not only do most IMAP clients allow you to subscribe to only particular mailboxes (i.e., IETF lists), but most also have a lovely set of filter options such that you can view only messages that match filter criteria you specify on a per mailbox basis (or across mailboxes). I've been recommending to people for some time to move over to reading IETF mail on the IMAP server. > Another possible enhancement would allow a subscriber to follow a > thread as it moved from one list to another.   That way, discussions > could easily be taken off the "main" list of a particular group and > moved to a "side" list.   So when, say, the ietf@ list gets into > discussions between a small number of people, the moderator could say > "take it off the ietf@ list and report back to us if/when you have > reached some sort of agreement".   The discussion could move > seamlessly (anyone who had contributed to the thread would > automatically start seeing the side list traffic), and anyone else who > wanted to follow that traffic could also watch those messages (or stop > watching them) with a single button click.   Everything would still > get archived with topics retained in the message headers. > > (really, "lists" in this environment become more like "topics") Yeah, this one is more interesting. It could be dealt with using mailman topics, but could really use some specific tooling. > Another possible enhancement might be "remove me from replies to this > thread".   The list software would then remove that subscriber from > to/cc headers of messages from that thread that are posted to the > list.   This wouldn't keep readers from doing "reply all" to > messages they had already received, but it would reduce the number of > replies sent to recipients who no longer wanted to be in a particular > discussion. This is the old usenet "kill thread" command; easily implemented in IMAP, somewhat more complicated on the server side. > Another possible enhancement would be "upvote" / "downvote" in > response to a particular message from a list, and readers would see > the number of upvotes and downvotes when they (re)read the message > from the list or read it in the archive.   This would reduce the > number of messages posted for no other reason than to say "+1".   > (I've implemented this using tags to point to images of the > respective vote counts.   The results certainly weren't perfect, > especially since many MUAs don't display images by default, but seemed > potentially useful.) One possibility is of course moving to more of a forum-based messaging service or other non-email-based alternatives. But assuming sticking with email: Something like draft-crocker-inreply-react could be used. When Dave proposed this, I also suggested that it could be done using MDNs in a multipart/report format. Either might make sense here. Of course, again this puts the burden on the client to deal with. I agree with your caveats, but I also agree that this is something worth pursuing. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best --=_MailMate_C13F2EA4-6B33-49E3-94A5-BA3456D89BAB_= Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[Hopefully obvious, but with no hat on.]

Some of the things you mention can be done with current t= ools, though admittedly not all of them are the easiest to use. For examp= le:

On 3 Apr 2021, at 23:27, Keith Moore wrote:

On 4/3/21 12:54 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Rather than view this as a complete negative, I suggest t= hat we take this as a challenge to find an industry-leading way to improv= e overall decision making and discourse in an environment where rough con= sensus matters, without us getting too=E2=80=A6 rough.

I have been wondering for awhile whether some enhancement= s to our means of distributing email to subscribers could yield a better = experience for ietf@ in particular and perhaps other lists also. Imagine = that instead of the list simply sending every message to every subscriber= , the list could do per-subscriber filtering according to each subscriber= 's preferences.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then a reader who got tired of a certain thre= ad could press a "Don't show me any more messages from this thread" butto= n.=C2=A0 The messages would still be archived so they wouldn't be inacces= sible to the reader, but the reader wouldn't be interrupted by seeing suc= h messages arrive or need to bother with deleting.

Two things here:

First, you'll note that in the mailman options for every = list, there's a box which says:

Which topic categories would you like to subscrib= e to?

By selecting one or more topics, you can filter the traff= ic on the mailing list, so as to receive only a subset of the messages. I= f a message matches one of your selected topics, then you will get the me= ssage, otherwise you will not.

If a message does not match any topic, the delivery rule = depends on the setting of the option below. If you do not select any topi= cs of interest, you will get all the messages sent to the mailing list.

The only problem here is that topics are defined by the l= ist admin, which takes some work, and you can only update which topics yo= u want to subscribe to through the web interface, which is a bit of a pai= n.

However, there is a second possibility, and it applies a = bit to some of the below: There is now imap.ietf.org running an IMAP serv= er containing all of the IETF list archives. It's all I use now to read m= y IETF list mail; I have turned off delivery of messages to my Inbox. Not= only do most IMAP clients allow you to subscribe to only particular mail= boxes (i.e., IETF lists), but most also have a lovely set of filter optio= ns such that you can view only messages that match filter criteria you sp= ecify on a per mailbox basis (or across mailboxes). I've been recommendin= g to people for some time to move over to reading IETF mail on the IMAP s= erver.

Another possible enhancement would allow a subscriber to = follow a thread as it moved from one list to another.=C2=A0=C2=A0 That wa= y, discussions could easily be taken off the "main" list of a particular = group and moved to a "side" list.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So when, say, the ietf@ lis= t gets into discussions between a small number of people, the moderator c= ould say "take it off the ietf@ list and report back to us if/when you ha= ve reached some sort of agreement".=C2=A0=C2=A0 The discussion could move= seamlessly (anyone who had contributed to the thread would automatically= start seeing the side list traffic), and anyone else who wanted to follo= w that traffic could also watch those messages (or stop watching them) wi= th a single button click.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Everything would still get archived= with topics retained in the message headers.

(really, "lists" in this environment become more like "to= pics")

Yeah, this one is more interesting. It could be dealt wit= h using mailman topics, but could really use some specific tooling.

Another possible enhancement might be "remove me from rep= lies to this thread".=C2=A0=C2=A0 The list software would then remove tha= t subscriber from to/cc headers of messages from that thread that are pos= ted to the list.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This wouldn't keep readers from doing "reply= all" to messages they had already received, but it would reduce the numb= er of replies sent to recipients who no longer wanted to be in a particul= ar discussion.

This is the old usenet "kill thread" command; easily impl= emented in IMAP, somewhat more complicated on the server side.

Another possible enhancement would be "upvote" / "downvot= e" in response to a particular message from a list, and readers would see= the number of upvotes and downvotes when they (re)read the message from = the list or read it in the archive.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This would reduce the num= ber of messages posted for no other reason than to say "+1". =C2=A0 (I've= implemented this using <IMG> tags to point to images of the respec= tive vote counts.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The results certainly weren't perfect, espe= cially since many MUAs don't display images by default, but seemed potent= ially useful.)

One possibility is of course moving to more of a forum-ba= sed messaging service or other non-email-based alternatives. But assuming= sticking with email: Something like draft-crocker-inreply-react could be= used. When Dave proposed this, I also suggested that it could be done us= ing MDNs in a multipart/report format. Either might make sense here. Of c= ourse, again this puts the burden on the client to deal with.

I agree with your caveats, but I also agree that this is = something worth pursuing.

pr

--
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best

--=_MailMate_C13F2EA4-6B33-49E3-94A5-BA3456D89BAB_=-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 10:18:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BD33A2986 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:18:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ykQEthFMFMX5 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 085E23A2985 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9E95C01A1; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 13:18:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=fZkUsb ldC+7oYtvs9w14EWCdlk8zxQZAr6NVrcYI2GQ=; b=H3W6MIMnQVVzGW2RKKRHO+ eokaqXk6CD9mUDx5uj4d9IhDJsctulfXc9l6+ES2JPUcB7eWkLik/kTgbUiTaqDe qDA2xbM+Y8fBSD5HCwojODy2VoHAMJwwOQo5AAuaH+QpZCNs+qSJmz9T10UzDjeb R/xQ31qYBvRZKyndbTPgyID4Q6pIUI4yRYtRSXkWpxCkr9NnVmYtGsZF/dMscJqj C5XQpA/CYzXpRd2NtSEH4s5TMhXQfhh/rrENutDxhVshL47tFdUeNkzL6T9E/keg ZW/A0cbp+HkhOXiuX+vH43sT/8nimvpr2E7H6CaAeLGJ7SGHUa2hMIs6IZ8JApQg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejhedgheekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtsegrtderredtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhh ucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeduteefkeevveefledtkeffieegleekgfduveegtddvheej gffggfelhfdvueduieenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppeejfedrud dufedrudeiledriedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghi lhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.30.202] (c-73-113-169-61.hsd1.tn.comcast.net [73.113.169.61]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8BE3C240067; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:18:27 -0400 (EDT) To: Pete Resnick Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <1CBE5840-3CAE-4EAA-9CF2-E0FFDAAAA6FD@akamai.com> <94D04C28-AFE8-4969-BF01-27EC68B19FDB@cisco.com> <072e17a2-17bf-c46d-0131-82a4b9ef3ab8@network-heretics.com> <3260399A-5140-4BE7-A3B8-3A634204C527@episteme.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <53a33666-0b27-eb06-f91b-bb23b62aaed5@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:18:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3260399A-5140-4BE7-A3B8-3A634204C527@episteme.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------61C7BE4A15F887901A8EF82B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Let's restore and evolve our plenary function (Re: Ending ietf@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 17:18:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------61C7BE4A15F887901A8EF82B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4/6/21 12:54 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > > [Hopefully obvious, but with no hat on.] > > Some of the things you mention can be done with current tools, though > admittedly not all of them are the easiest to use. For example: > > On 3 Apr 2021, at 23:27, Keith Moore wrote: > > On 4/3/21 12:54 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Rather than view this as a complete negative, I suggest that > we take this as a challenge to find an industry-leading way to > improve overall decision making and discourse in an > environment where rough consensus matters, without us getting > too… rough. > > I have been wondering for awhile whether some enhancements to our > means of distributing email to subscribers could yield a better > experience for ietf@ in particular and perhaps other lists also. > Imagine that instead of the list simply sending every message to > every subscriber, the list could do per-subscriber filtering > according to each subscriber's preferences.   Then a reader who > got tired of a certain thread could press a "Don't show me any > more messages from this thread" button.  The messages would still > be archived so they wouldn't be inaccessible to the reader, but > the reader wouldn't be interrupted by seeing such messages arrive > or need to bother with deleting. > > Two things here: > > First, you'll note that in the mailman options for every list, there's > a box which says: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Which topic categories would you like to subscribe to?* > > By selecting one or more topics, you can filter the traffic on the > mailing list, so as to receive only a subset of the messages. If a > message matches one of your selected topics, then you will get the > message, otherwise you will not. > > If a message does not match any topic, the delivery rule depends on > the setting of the option below. If you do not select any topics of > interest, you will get all the messages sent to the mailing list. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > The only problem here is that topics are defined by the list admin, > which takes some work, and you can only update which topics you want > to subscribe to through the web interface, which is a bit of a pain. > Yeah, I've never found mailman's "topic" feature very useful for the reasons you list, and others.   I was thinking instead of a sort of automatic topic feature, derived from the message subject (removing Re: prefixes and list name, normalizing case and spaces, etc.) and perhaps the transitive closure of replies to other messages with that derived subject. > > However, there is a second possibility, and it applies a bit to some > of the below: There is now imap.ietf.org running an IMAP server > containing all of the IETF list archives. It's all I use now to read > my IETF list mail; I have turned off delivery of messages to my Inbox. > Not only do most IMAP clients allow you to subscribe to only > particular mailboxes (i.e., IETF lists), but most also have a lovely > set of filter options such that you can view only messages that match > filter criteria you specify on a per mailbox basis (or across > mailboxes). I've been recommending to people for some time to move > over to reading IETF mail on the IMAP server. > I'd love to make better use of that, and encourage more use of that, but I've personally spent hours trying to get it work satisfactorily with Thunderbird (recent versions) and have so far been unsuccessful.   Perhaps you or someone else with more insight than myself can improve the documentation of that feature?   I think it's a very good idea, especially since it doesn't require a separate subscription for every list.   Though I wonder if it will ever be generally applicable to the entire set of IETF participants, which is what made me wonder about having the list expander do some of that work. > I agree with your caveats, but I also agree that this is something > worth pursuing. thanks. Keith --------------61C7BE4A15F887901A8EF82B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 4/6/21 12:54 PM, Pete Resnick wrote:

[Hopefully obvious, but with no hat on.]

Some of the things you mention can be done with current tools, though admittedly not all of them are the easiest to use. For example:

On 3 Apr 2021, at 23:27, Keith Moore wrote:

On 4/3/21 12:54 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

Rather than view this as a complete negative, I suggest that we take this as a challenge to find an industry-leading way to improve overall decision making and discourse in an environment where rough consensus matters, without us getting too… rough.

I have been wondering for awhile whether some enhancements to our means of distributing email to subscribers could yield a better experience for ietf@ in particular and perhaps other lists also. Imagine that instead of the list simply sending every message to every subscriber, the list could do per-subscriber filtering according to each subscriber's preferences.   Then a reader who got tired of a certain thread could press a "Don't show me any more messages from this thread" button.  The messages would still be archived so they wouldn't be inaccessible to the reader, but the reader wouldn't be interrupted by seeing such messages arrive or need to bother with deleting.

Two things here:

First, you'll note that in the mailman options for every list, there's a box which says:

Which topic categories would you like to subscribe to?

By selecting one or more topics, you can filter the traffic on the mailing list, so as to receive only a subset of the messages. If a message matches one of your selected topics, then you will get the message, otherwise you will not.

If a message does not match any topic, the delivery rule depends on the setting of the option below. If you do not select any topics of interest, you will get all the messages sent to the mailing list.

The only problem here is that topics are defined by the list admin, which takes some work, and you can only update which topics you want to subscribe to through the web interface, which is a bit of a pain.

Yeah, I've never found mailman's "topic" feature very useful for the reasons you list, and others.   I was thinking instead of a sort of automatic topic feature, derived from the message subject (removing Re: prefixes and list name, normalizing case and spaces, etc.) and perhaps the transitive closure of replies to other messages with that derived subject.

However, there is a second possibility, and it applies a bit to some of the below: There is now imap.ietf.org running an IMAP server containing all of the IETF list archives. It's all I use now to read my IETF list mail; I have turned off delivery of messages to my Inbox. Not only do most IMAP clients allow you to subscribe to only particular mailboxes (i.e., IETF lists), but most also have a lovely set of filter options such that you can view only messages that match filter criteria you specify on a per mailbox basis (or across mailboxes). I've been recommending to people for some time to move over to reading IETF mail on the IMAP server.

I'd love to make better use of that, and encourage more use of that, but I've personally spent hours trying to get it work satisfactorily with Thunderbird (recent versions) and have so far been unsuccessful.   Perhaps you or someone else with more insight than myself can improve the documentation of that feature?   I think it's a very good idea, especially since it doesn't require a separate subscription for every list.   Though I wonder if it will ever be generally applicable to the entire set of IETF participants, which is what made me wonder about having the list expander do some of that work.

I agree with your caveats, but I also agree that this is something worth pursuing.

thanks.

Keith


--------------61C7BE4A15F887901A8EF82B-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 11:56:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137323A2C6E for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:56:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id StN-0DtGNSkQ for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDCF33A2C6B for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id v26so16637924iox.11 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 11:56:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pOQbo44Zm/3/cWNSaHOd+G98V9nEJr7jmJCJC8yiuYo=; b=fBbdq9eCbBu/cZHcQXeVOJD0uoKTP+HSi6vzerFrAIyAkJrXEqIt3rzOUMCVRDD9Nr 4FXvig4HjLf0U+CETMAbv/2nS3IfimJU0BuDaSTM2KSgOgxPKKNahtwHYHQbvpdjr0aY ESGsZmCZcyf+4LOxdtAH8pC9BtFD4385w97h0mSP1QKPpiZmc/Zn0AXjKiXu0ha1De0T 4W783bDdHnFEbCWhA9vc2D+M/pfHqJsgCJOIZScOp4bPO1QOBlwLZ94+4Uyg2M8kLSfi mZcp/ZjjpOqAGvQjk9iCyLxZnhDUBcKAWHSgvMW1GPR4bMDzH5W79GG6ZPejggqUanRQ ulcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pOQbo44Zm/3/cWNSaHOd+G98V9nEJr7jmJCJC8yiuYo=; b=OrdBL9PgyRJIOVcNDa+Mk10RI9PP77y+mYZ5WgzN5AnRkBkZAPj2Zlc5IVNUoLmVua pkv1+tml9J1sRrBhqOKm/lvE0UorUW3Nj2ucxQzSLJKhoJDMnoM9wsmh/W+8VrmaairH LbqPCC/NTJ0+cQooV1Ud6KPZ0b8I5MYtv98Qic4yZZDnwwroBOaG4x7Xz4fssID9d2Tc fyTcSCHFPUdbbGnNCXNsobTw74oGeFBqYp6DdFLUFvTMAkXSvj/Nd8oSqJ7bdFCOW5UO mzIKyiYqSZ3gigiIOLhFzo59+BnElnRqiGRN/wbv0aaxYzMWySTqmxpg5LwTW1fmEq+w Wkfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316ioKNTqXLh84HMOYeGx0gYFVfv7yTWromwgJ8XJK8EkT713px xQT4tQoTFGYfBvMWvPcPByhY75Fi6S4kB0dxgHE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw0ve8j6Z8iurLlZ9mD6cMNIRlmfj0gLDzY1yDGmbrDKnsqMUD51TJ7suXQx6M68Xk+rG+CMx0LMe6Sh4VHses= X-Received: by 2002:a02:cc1b:: with SMTP id n27mr30016086jap.106.1617735397203; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 11:56:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:56:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b0e46e05bf525f49" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 18:56:44 -0000 --000000000000b0e46e05bf525f49 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:12 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > > > This could mean that =E2=80=9Cietf@=E2=80=9D should not exist, or perhaps= it could be a > non-postable alias for a subset of the lists above, e.g., perhaps > ietf-announce + last-call + ietf-technical + ietf-meetings. > Thanks for taking the time to write up this proposal. I might simplify the proposal to: ietf@ietf.org: - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of technical issues that are candidates for IETF wor= k, but do not yet have an appropriate e-mail venue=E2=80=9D - =E2=80=9CQuestions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings=E2=80=9D - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of IETF administrative policies=E2=80=9D ietf-discuss@ietf.org - =E2=80=9CGeneral discussion related to the IETF, considerable latitude is allowed=E2=80=9D It's not so much that I'm offended by what's written on the ietf@ list, although that happens occasionally. I do feel like people are trolling and otherwise taking advantage of the large (but shrinking) audience on the list, though. I don't think the IETF should host "ietf-discuss@ietf.org" at all, but it seems I'm in the rough there. This proposal would make the general IETF list much more tightly moderated. The subscribers of ietf@ietf.org wouldn't be automatically subscribed to ietf-discuss, as they were for last-call@ietf.org. thanks, Rob > *From:* Gendispatch *On Behalf Of *Rob > Sayre > *Sent:* 03 April 2021 03:21 > *To:* gendispatch@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org > > > > Hi, > > > > I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposing to shut down > ietf@ietf.org. > > > > At this point, there are many other lists to discuss general IETF issues > (last-call@, arch@, gendispatch@, etc). So, the original catch-all > purpose of the IETF list is well-handled in many, if not all, cases. > > > > What's left on the general IETF list seems to consist of general societal > or language issues that the IETF is not well-suited to address. > Additionally, some participants seem to be taking advantage of its large > audience and the list's IETF affiliation. Many of the posts seem better > suited to blog posts, email newsletters, forum posts, other venues where > the readers have opted in to such content. > > > > I don't want to spend time on this document if I'm going to get flamed > into outer space without getting it published, but I think it's time. > > > > thanks, > > Rob > --000000000000b0e46e05bf525f49 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:12 AM Rob Wilton (rw= ilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> w= rote:

=C2=A0

This could mean that =E2=80=9Cietf@=E2=80=9D s= hould not exist, or perhaps it could be a non-postable alias for a subset o= f the lists above, e.g., perhaps ietf-announce + last-call + ietf-technical= + ietf-meetings.


Th= anks for taking the time to write up this proposal.

I might simplify the proposal to:

=C2=A0- =E2=80=9CDisc= ussion of technical issues that are candidates for IETF work, but do not ye= t have an appropriate e-mail venue=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0- =E2=80=9CQues= tions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0= - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of IETF administrative policies=E2=80=9D
- =E2=80=9CGeneral discussion related to the IETF, considera= ble latitude is allowed=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=C2=A0

It= 9;s not so much that I'm offended by what's written on the ietf@ li= st, although that happens occasionally. I do feel like people are trolling = and otherwise taking advantage of the large (but shrinking) audience on the= list, though.


tha= nks,
Rob

=C2=A0

From: Gendispatch <gendispatch-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Sayre
Sent: 03 April 2021 03:21
To: gendis= patch@ietf.org
Subject: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposin= g=C2=A0to shut down ietf@ietf.org.

=C2=A0

At this point, there are many other lists to discuss= general IETF issues (last-call@, arch@, gendispatch@, etc). So, the=C2=A0o= riginal catch-all purpose of the IETF list is well-handled in many, if not = all, cases.

=C2=A0

What's left on the general IETF list seems to co= nsist of general societal or language issues that the IETF is not well-suit= ed to address. Additionally, some participants seem to be taking advantage = of its large audience and the list's IETF affiliation. Many of the posts seem better suited to blog posts, email new= sletters, forum posts, other venues where the readers have opted in to such= content.

=C2=A0

I don't want to spend time on this document if I= 'm going to get flamed into outer space without getting=C2=A0it publish= ed, but I think it's time.

=C2=A0

thanks,

Rob=C2=A0

--000000000000b0e46e05bf525f49-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 12:03:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130F93A2C83 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8JkoQL6WtRmE for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7221D3A2CB1 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7867E452 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:02:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=SgffPzCUg5fIadt+heJAZF8E4ZZG7AiuRVxKaLsHO rw=; b=uvImeKpsfJV0b3JqlasairS89io/Kk0Ljn8I7ZO1YOAAESMLk43cuz87v 4v3YwNa/Jo6vWcmMmdWRQmjqATD8e8Z3s3VfHT813wC+BT1HDxsgqfJQc6Qx55Ip 4njblJXJgtdaoVfctWa7YPWBGetsSnM80ymEAm7741IKckx9aHjgowE4YX12BHz2 5PZnBx7zi6OtpPAo6XCN+Hlfgf61mBf8qjehrdPsNsr0ykCekYmbtfXR/Sw9Pfun sIoEO2m8F7sAkv0qWFFZC+Nl9AGN81l/uJVo8HeVle6v8iZX4nDoHBRmnWrRwoKs Oc+xZxScX04NvC0G5ooTLzFKf8RuA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejhedgkedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekvdeggfelue elkeeuhfffheeghffhkeeuvdduudeihfehudefffdtgfdtkeffgfenucfkphepudejvddr heekrddufeelrdeknecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [172.20.10.6] (unknown [172.58.139.8]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BBE5F24005D for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:02:34 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:02:29 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 19:03:14 -0000 On 4/6/21 2:56 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > I do feel like people are trolling and otherwise taking advantage of > the large (but shrinking) audience on the list, though. Just curious, can you be more specific about what you mean by "taking advantage of the...audience on the list"? Keith From nobody Tue Apr 6 12:50:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E473A2E2B for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lyrUNPOYsEOm; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34A563A2E26; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:50:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <0B831660-F016-4B49-BC92-04BDFB138ECF@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_407892B6-67AE-4FBE-B743-568D3893F4F0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 07:50:13 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: Rob Sayre References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 19:50:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_407892B6-67AE-4FBE-B743-568D3893F4F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 7/04/2021, at 6:56 AM, Rob Sayre wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:12 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > =20 >=20 > This could mean that =E2=80=9Cietf@=E2=80=9D should not exist, or = perhaps it could be a non-postable alias for a subset of the lists = above, e.g., perhaps ietf-announce + last-call + ietf-technical + = ietf-meetings. >=20 >=20 > Thanks for taking the time to write up this proposal. >=20 > I might simplify the proposal to: >=20 > ietf@ietf.org :=20 > - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of technical issues that are candidates for = IETF work, but do not yet have an appropriate e-mail venue=E2=80=9D > - =E2=80=9CQuestions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings=E2=80=9D= This one should be admin-discuss@ietf.org. > - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of IETF administrative policies=E2=80=9D This one could be admin-discuss@ietf.org if the other areas with admin = responsibilities agree. I would prefer that to avoid confusion. Jay >=20 > ietf-discuss@ietf.org > - =E2=80=9CGeneral discussion related to the IETF, considerable = latitude is allowed=E2=80=9D =20 >=20 > It's not so much that I'm offended by what's written on the ietf@ = list, although that happens occasionally. I do feel like people are = trolling and otherwise taking advantage of the large (but shrinking) = audience on the list, though. >=20 > I don't think the IETF should host "ietf-discuss@ietf.org = " at all, but it seems I'm in the rough = there. This proposal would make the general IETF list much more tightly = moderated. The subscribers of ietf@ietf.org = wouldn't be automatically subscribed to ietf-discuss, as they were for = last-call@ietf.org . >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 > =20 > From: Gendispatch > On Behalf Of Rob Sayre > Sent: 03 April 2021 03:21 > To: gendispatch@ietf.org > Subject: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org > =20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > =20 >=20 > I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposing to shut down = ietf@ietf.org . >=20 > =20 >=20 > At this point, there are many other lists to discuss general IETF = issues (last-call@, arch@, gendispatch@, etc). So, the original = catch-all purpose of the IETF list is well-handled in many, if not all, = cases. >=20 > =20 >=20 > What's left on the general IETF list seems to consist of general = societal or language issues that the IETF is not well-suited to address. = Additionally, some participants seem to be taking advantage of its large = audience and the list's IETF affiliation. Many of the posts seem better = suited to blog posts, email newsletters, forum posts, other venues where = the readers have opted in to such content. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I don't want to spend time on this document if I'm going to get flamed = into outer space without getting it published, but I think it's time. >=20 > =20 >=20 > thanks, >=20 > Rob=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_407892B6-67AE-4FBE-B743-568D3893F4F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 7/04/2021, at 6:56 AM, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> = wrote:

On Tue, Apr = 6, 2021 at 4:12 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> = wrote:

 

This = could mean that =E2=80=9Cietf@=E2=80=9D should not exist, or perhaps it = could be a non-postable alias for a subset of the lists above, e.g., = perhaps ietf-announce + last-call + ietf-technical + = ietf-meetings.


Thanks for taking the time to write up = this proposal.

I= might simplify the proposal to:

ietf@ietf.org: 
 - = =E2=80=9CDiscussion of technical issues that are candidates for IETF = work, but do not yet have an appropriate e-mail = venue=E2=80=9D


 - =E2=80=9CQuestions and clarifications concerning IETF = meetings=E2=80=9D

This one should be admin-discuss@ietf.org.

 -= =E2=80=9CDiscussion of IETF administrative = policies=E2=80=9D

This one could be admin-discuss@ietf.org if the other areas with admin = responsibilities agree.  I would prefer that to avoid = confusion.

Jay



ietf-discuss@ietf.org
- =E2=80=9CGener= al discussion related to the IETF, considerable latitude is = allowed=E2=80=9D  

It's not so much that I'm offended by = what's written on the ietf@ list, although that happens occasionally. I = do feel like people are trolling and otherwise taking advantage of the = large (but shrinking) audience on the list, though.

I don't think the IETF = should host "ietf-discuss@ietf.org" at all, but it seems I'm in the = rough there. This proposal would make the general IETF list much more = tightly moderated. The subscribers of ietf@ietf.org wouldn't be = automatically subscribed to ietf-discuss, as they were for last-call@ietf.org.

thanks,
Rob

 

From: Gendispatch = <gendispatch-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Sayre
Sent: 03 April 2021 03:21
To: gendispatch@ietf.org
Subject: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org

 

Hi,

 

I've been thinking about writing = an I-D proposing to shut down ietf@ietf.org.

 

At this point, there are many = other lists to discuss general IETF issues (last-call@, arch@, = gendispatch@, etc). So, the original catch-all purpose of the IETF = list is well-handled in many, if not all, cases.

 

What's left on the general IETF = list seems to consist of general societal or language issues that the = IETF is not well-suited to address. Additionally, some participants seem = to be taking advantage of its large audience and the list's IETF affiliation. Many of the posts seem better suited to blog posts, email = newsletters, forum posts, other venues where the readers have opted in = to such content.

 

I don't want to spend time on = this document if I'm going to get flamed into outer space without = getting it published, but I think it's time.

 

thanks,

Rob 

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_407892B6-67AE-4FBE-B743-568D3893F4F0-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 13:07:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748E23A2EB8; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:07:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nwbtM-5GEcOm; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D596E3A2EB5; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id x16so16924260iob.1; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 13:07:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g/7MGeXINcK1zJGE1ptfUGqOnyF8NQ/gkRZFMFX8nkQ=; b=oB0MSkPJVD4DABlKuh6GWbYG+tg6R7Vhzw90ULf6t3UsHfnnbGxE9aLfeTBq30GqsL D8ID5xiRtSS2Pf6gHIk3RRQWRug4of0gdOCKh6xMSBD+o2KFhZEY1pt5rtjTdBArWDHJ jfRl4QlW3veuNmaNOOTWW85XpMVWuyZBqWtVEWY8MFlEfjcPrMGLKs3+wDywxCbUNnpy MGNyrHZPycmGuXR7j1wfs6usN+2qHWOK1ERuLJ4+zAStj3k1tKM7YriAkn0Kd849wrsl oin/Ts05xuP2guJ3OCGi01m96e6YlC/12fW5+h6A8B29RyPw+n084bp+5fT4Aadrzi25 TB/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g/7MGeXINcK1zJGE1ptfUGqOnyF8NQ/gkRZFMFX8nkQ=; b=ntnI2vaACgZig0XXAvbZQimYqnuoh9vySbTKCd7PJnMAs1EzfLaccfG3JwDlmI4djO 51DVD3Cr2/pAWInxnkozdq5TV2blSIZs4Iyul59ZI1mQroBvlr8pkM/DNYExKRYuxY/3 VTE+GFHyyzo7SkC5vS+qNRwObFunh3WeUxCuaQzTA0V8haIDUvy/9H/X6N84R1OTToHF ex4dzQZADxi5vTkKzfVh6f4aA/FNMpSMyOpeQtZkQ8ah2TaRT4JNwqgAQ04GnzFH3hyo emy6adEWKZ0h2uG6wlr6p+n9YCoDxokJ5KMZOXzwa3Hi9RgdKwSmuWl9IAirO4n6udsE 08gA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531DT69MSQVLkuvxvNhg36DM2Y4Iv3PaAnZrW/+CQEX1YGU0YZvF 8XQ83WvZd6c8RjPoge7oTvJz84aKongO8AQiAVhEt10HS9Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw3/QuXSucPbggo7g2iVcmBNLV7Dp3cz5UtGSrpXxrqRIQNFzu8W7wN7llsI6tUtnKKgF4nJWOfoo+JDR7/WE8= X-Received: by 2002:a02:230d:: with SMTP id u13mr31127729jau.53.1617739634950; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 13:07:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0B831660-F016-4B49-BC92-04BDFB138ECF@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <0B831660-F016-4B49-BC92-04BDFB138ECF@ietf.org> From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:07:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000047f38505bf535cca" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 20:07:22 -0000 --00000000000047f38505bf535cca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:50 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > I might simplify the proposal to: > > ietf@ietf.org: > - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of technical issues that are candidates for IETF w= ork, but > do not yet have an appropriate e-mail venue=E2=80=9D > > > > - =E2=80=9CQuestions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings=E2=80= =9D > > > This one should be admin-discuss@ietf.org. > > - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of IETF administrative policies=E2=80=9D > > > This one could be admin-discuss@ietf.org if the other areas with admin > responsibilities agree. I would prefer that to avoid confusion. > Those suggestions sound reasonable to me, although it might be a good idea to have that list, last-call, the IESG, the IAB, and the RFC Editor post summaries to ietf@ periodically, much like some WGs do with GitHub activity= . That way, people can track what's going on, but have a place to follow up. All of those areas have (slightly) different norms at the moment, so that actually sounds an improvement to me. I suppose that gets closer to Rob Wilton's suggestion of a read-only alias. I think it might be ok to leave it as a writeable list, though. That way people can ask questions (which will hopefully get swiftly redirected). thanks, Rob --00000000000047f38505bf535cca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:50 PM Jay Daley= <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">

I might simplify = the proposal to:

=C2=A0- =E2=80=9CDiscu= ssion of technical issues that are candidates for IETF work, but do not yet= have an appropriate e-mail venue=E2=80=9D


=C2=A0- =E2=80=9CQuestions and clarifications concern= ing IETF meetings=E2=80=9D

This one should be admin-discuss@ietf.org.

=C2=A0- = =E2=80=9CDiscussion of IETF administrative policies=E2=80=9D


Those suggestions sound reasonable to me, although it might be a good ide= a to have that list, last-call, the IESG, the IAB, and the RFC Editor post = summaries to ietf@ periodically, much like some WGs do with GitHub activity= .

--00000000000047f38505bf535cca-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 13:45:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C773A3009 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:45:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JhHaGn8yO7vw for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3D043A3005 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 136Khscr015332; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:45:29 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=PDp5aAzyATPb1lfTc7meNFJtC8Xk6SDxOou+U8VwmbI=; b=Y+3ixIBKHmKsOiIHVyyLSeKbdZdwGMOUQScijgStKWH2XBklT/DZyOntdOg7hXUmqXfC tdPDD5HZy2i74bXQCcpeuXttXSm7kFowL94gJUI9knRDoE6dwywplFgKhc7+05v3vmGr mNUw0HtdCZiWPwcDSr4k2TyinDZIRE4lkT6kajiE4RZSAyUrvkA92T/0NayOn4ziXhO1 yGl9PHaqoABjVZRjzN1AWrVJZ+s3OGvQVijbEI70xkdn9H/OvylfmXl8ChwwPk8hoxAy 5KikjOifO8oBwHOFs8xch1Mn2UP6WaE5MJJigCHazrXmW4gLRL0ij6evZ9KpgJa5EIgT Bg== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint1 (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [184.51.33.18] (may be forged)) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 37rvqnve0e-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:45:29 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 136KYXTR007330; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 16:45:27 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 37rw08077c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 16:45:27 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 16:45:26 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.012; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 16:45:26 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Rob Sayre CC: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHXKDAT+puxFm5+c0mnHgx6RTeegaqnnieAgACBnID//9toAA== Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:45:26 +0000 Message-ID: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.48.21040401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3D340A9D1A394ADABA27E4E912CA6D03akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_07:2021-04-06, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104060140 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: x3kUtlemkyzAVrnMz_I5DsRc9RgzKQge X-Proofpoint-GUID: x3kUtlemkyzAVrnMz_I5DsRc9RgzKQge X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_07:2021-04-06, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104060142 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.18) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 20:45:35 -0000 --_000_3D340A9D1A394ADABA27E4E912CA6D03akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCiAgKiAgIGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc8bWFpbHRvOmlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc+Og0KDQogICogICAg LSDigJxEaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9mIHRlY2huaWNhbCBpc3N1ZXMgdGhhdCBhcmUgY2FuZGlkYXRlcyBm b3IgSUVURiB3b3JrLCBidXQgZG8gbm90IHlldCBoYXZlIGFuIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIGUtbWFpbCB2 ZW51ZeKAnQ0KDQogICogICAtIOKAnFF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhbmQgY2xhcmlmaWNhdGlvbnMgY29uY2Vy bmluZyBJRVRGIG1lZXRpbmdz4oCdDQoNCiAgKiAgIC0g4oCcRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBJRVRGIGFk bWluaXN0cmF0aXZlIHBvbGljaWVz4oCdDQoNCiAgKiAgIFRoaXMgcHJvcG9zYWwgd291bGQgbWFr ZSB0aGUgZ2VuZXJhbCBJRVRGIGxpc3QgbXVjaCBtb3JlIHRpZ2h0bHkgbW9kZXJhdGVkLg0KDQpT aG91bGQgd2UgdGFrZSBzdGVwcyB0byBlbmNvdXJhZ2UgbW9yZSB3b21lbiBhbmQgdW5kZXItcmVw cmVzZW50ZWQgZ3JvdXBzIG9mIHBlb3BsZSBpbnRvIGxlYWRlcnNoaXA/IFdoZXJlIGFuZCBob3cg ZG8gd2UgZGlzY3VzcyB0aGF0IHF1ZXN0aW9uPyAgQW5kIHRoZW4sIGlmIHRoZSBjb25zZW5zdXMg aXMgeWVzLCB3aGVyZSBhbmQgaG93IGRvIHdlIGRpc2N1c3MgbWVjaGFuaXNtcyB0byBkbyBzbz8g IEhvdyBkbyB3ZSBkaXNjdXNzIHdoZXRoZXIgb3Igbm90IHRvIGhvbGQgYW4gb25saW5lIG1lZXRp bmcgb3IgYSBGMkYgb25lLCBhbmQgaG93IGRvIHdlIGtlZXAgdGhlIGNvbnZlcnNhdGlvbiBmcm9t IGdldHRpbmcgaW50byB0aGUg4oCcVVMgZG9taW5hdGVz4oCdIGRpc2N1c3Npb24/IElzIHRoaXMg bGlzdCBtb2RlcmF0ZWQ/IFdobyBhcHBvaW50cyB0aGUgbW9kZXJhdG9ycz8gV2hlcmUgY2FuIHdl IGNvbXBsYWluIGFib3V0IHRoZSBqb2IgdGhlIG1vZGVyYXRvcnMgYXJlIGRvaW5nPyBXaWxsIHdl IGJlIGFsbG93ZWQgdG8gc3BlY3VsYXRlIG9uIHRoZSB2YWNjaW5lIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGlvbiB3aGVu IGRlY2lkZWQgaWYgTm92ZW1iZXIgaXMgRjJGPyBDYW4gd2UgYmUgY29uc3RyYWluZWQgdG8gZG8g dGhhdCB3aXRob3V0IGNvbXBhcmluZyBzb2NpZXRpZXM/DQoNCg0KICAqICAgSSBkb24ndCB0aGlu ayB0aGUgSUVURiBzaG91bGQgaG9zdCAiaWV0Zi1kaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzppZXRm LWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmc+IiBhdCBhbGwsIGJ1dCBpdCBzZWVtcyBJJ20gaW4gdGhlIHJvdWdo IHRoZXJlLg0KDQpGcm9tIHdoYXQgSSBoYXZlIHNlZW4sIHlvdXIgcHJvcG9zYWwgaXMgaW4gdGhl IHJvdWdoLiAgSSBqdXN0IGxvb2tlZCBhdCB0aGUgNDQgbWVzc2FnZXMgaW4gdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQ7 IHRoZXJlIHdlcmUgdW5kZXIgYSBkb3plbiBwZW9wbGUsIGFuZCBub2JvZHkgc3VwcG9ydGVkIHlv dS4gIChNYXliZSwgaWYgeW91IHNxdWludCwgeW91IGNvdWxkIGNsYWltIFN0ZXBoZW4gZG9lcy4p ICBJIGFzc3VtZSB5b3UgaGF2ZSBwcml2YXRlIGVtYWlsIHRoYXQgd2FzIGluIGZhdm9yLg0KDQo= --_000_3D340A9D1A394ADABA27E4E912CA6D03akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6NSAwIDAgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDAg MDt9DQpAZm9udC1mYWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYW1icmlhIE1hdGgiOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0x OjIgNCA1IDMgNSA0IDYgMyAyIDQ7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpDYWxpYnJp Ow0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIgMTUgNSAyIDIgMiA0IDMgMiA0O30NCi8qIFN0eWxlIERlZmluaXRpb25z ICovDQpwLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgbGkuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBkaXYuTXNvTm9ybWFsDQoJe21hcmdpbjow aW47DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJp Zjt9DQphOmxpbmssIHNwYW4uTXNvSHlwZXJsaW5rDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsN Cgljb2xvcjpibHVlOw0KCXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0KcC5Nc29MaXN0UGFy YWdyYXBoLCBsaS5Nc29MaXN0UGFyYWdyYXBoLCBkaXYuTXNvTGlzdFBhcmFncmFwaA0KCXttc28t c3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6MzQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLXRvcDowaW47DQoJbWFyZ2luLXJpZ2h0OjBpbjsN CgltYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDouNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4w cHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFpbFN0eWxl MTgNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtcmVwbHk7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGli cmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7DQoJY29sb3I6d2luZG93dGV4dDt9DQouTXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVsdA0KCXtt c28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpleHBvcnQtb25seTsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O30NCkBwYWdlIFdv cmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtzaXplOjguNWluIDExLjBpbjsNCgltYXJnaW46MS4waW4gMS4waW4gMS4w aW4gMS4waW47fQ0KZGl2LldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtwYWdlOldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMTt9DQovKiBM aXN0IERlZmluaXRpb25zICovDQpAbGlzdCBsMA0KCXttc28tbGlzdC1pZDoyMTMzMjAyNzY0Ow0K CW1zby1saXN0LXR5cGU6aHlicmlkOw0KCW1zby1saXN0LXRlbXBsYXRlLWlkczotMTcxNjI1NjY4 NCA1Mjk2OTM5MDQgNjc2OTg2OTEgNjc2OTg2OTMgNjc2OTg2ODkgNjc2OTg2OTEgNjc2OTg2OTMg Njc2OTg2ODkgNjc2OTg2OTEgNjc2OTg2OTM7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWwxDQoJe21zby1sZXZl bC1zdGFydC1hdDowOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2 ZWwtdGV4dDrvg5g7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJl ci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5n ZGluZ3M7DQoJbXNvLWZhcmVhc3QtZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IlRpbWVzIE5ldyBSb21hbiI7DQoJbXNv LWJpZGktZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDINCgl7bXNvLWxldmVs LW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Om87DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRh Yi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5k ZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ291cmllciBOZXciO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVs Mw0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674Kn Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246 bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6V2luZ2RpbmdzO30NCkBs aXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNA0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxl dmVsLXRleHQ674K3Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1i ZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6U3lt Ym9sO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7 DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6bzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2 ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LS4yNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFt aWx5OiJDb3VyaWVyIE5ldyI7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw2DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXIt Zm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgqc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9w Om5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0u MjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw3DQoJe21zby1s ZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgrc7DQoJbXNvLWxl dmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRl eHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpTeW1ib2w7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw4 DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDpvOw0K CW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVm dDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNvdXJpZXIgTmV3Ijt9DQpA bGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDkNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1s ZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CpzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVt YmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LS4yNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5Oldp bmdkaW5nczt9DQpvbA0KCXttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjBpbjt9DQp1bA0KCXttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9t OjBpbjt9DQotLT48L3N0eWxlPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0KPGJvZHkgbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiIGxpbms9ImJs dWUiIHZsaW5rPSJwdXJwbGUiIHN0eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdyYXA6YnJlYWstd29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNs YXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPGRpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05v cm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8dWwgc3R5bGU9Im1h cmdpbi10b3A6MGluIiB0eXBlPSJkaXNjIj4NCjxsaSBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTGlzdFBhcmFncmFwaCIg c3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjBpbjttc28tbGlzdDpsMCBsZXZlbDEgbGZvMSI+PGEgaHJlZj0i bWFpbHRvOmlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmciPmlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc8L2E+OiZuYnNwOzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+ PC9saT48L3VsPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHVsIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tdG9wOjBpbiIgdHlw ZT0iZGlzYyI+DQo8bGkgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgiIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tbGVm dDowaW47bXNvLWxpc3Q6bDAgbGV2ZWwxIGxmbzEiPiZuYnNwOy0g4oCcRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiB0 ZWNobmljYWwgaXNzdWVzIHRoYXQgYXJlIGNhbmRpZGF0ZXMgZm9yIElFVEYgd29yaywgYnV0IGRv IG5vdCB5ZXQgaGF2ZSBhbiBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBlLW1haWwgdmVudWXigJ08bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwv bGk+PC91bD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjx1bCBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLXRvcDowaW4iIHR5cGU9 ImRpc2MiPg0KPGxpIGNsYXNzPSJNc29MaXN0UGFyYWdyYXBoIiBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6 MGluO21zby1saXN0OmwwIGxldmVsMSBsZm8xIj4tIOKAnFF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhbmQgY2xhcmlmaWNh dGlvbnMgY29uY2VybmluZyBJRVRGIG1lZXRpbmdz4oCdPG86cD48L286cD48L2xpPjwvdWw+DQo8 L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8dWwgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi10b3A6MGluIiB0eXBlPSJkaXNjIj4NCjxs aSBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTGlzdFBhcmFncmFwaCIgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjBpbjttc28tbGlz dDpsMCBsZXZlbDEgbGZvMSI+LSDigJxEaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9mIElFVEYgYWRtaW5pc3RyYXRpdmUg cG9saWNpZXPigJ08bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvbGk+PC91bD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjx1bCBzdHls ZT0ibWFyZ2luLXRvcDowaW4iIHR5cGU9ImRpc2MiPg0KPGxpIGNsYXNzPSJNc29MaXN0UGFyYWdy YXBoIiBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MGluO21zby1saXN0OmwwIGxldmVsMSBsZm8xIj5UaGlz IHByb3Bvc2FsIHdvdWxkIG1ha2UgdGhlIGdlbmVyYWwgSUVURiBsaXN0IG11Y2ggbW9yZSB0aWdo dGx5IG1vZGVyYXRlZC48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvbGk+PC91bD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwi PjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+U2hvdWxkIHdlIHRh a2Ugc3RlcHMgdG8gZW5jb3VyYWdlIG1vcmUgd29tZW4gYW5kIHVuZGVyLXJlcHJlc2VudGVkIGdy b3VwcyBvZiBwZW9wbGUgaW50byBsZWFkZXJzaGlwPyBXaGVyZSBhbmQgaG93IGRvIHdlIGRpc2N1 c3MgdGhhdCBxdWVzdGlvbj8mbmJzcDsgQW5kIHRoZW4sIGlmIHRoZSBjb25zZW5zdXMgaXMgeWVz LCB3aGVyZSBhbmQgaG93IGRvIHdlIGRpc2N1c3MgbWVjaGFuaXNtcyB0byBkbyBzbz8mbmJzcDsg SG93IGRvDQogd2UgZGlzY3VzcyB3aGV0aGVyIG9yIG5vdCB0byBob2xkIGFuIG9ubGluZSBtZWV0 aW5nIG9yIGEgRjJGIG9uZSwgYW5kIGhvdyBkbyB3ZSBrZWVwIHRoZSBjb252ZXJzYXRpb24gZnJv bSBnZXR0aW5nIGludG8gdGhlIOKAnFVTIGRvbWluYXRlc+KAnSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uPyBJcyB0aGlz IGxpc3QgbW9kZXJhdGVkPyBXaG8gYXBwb2ludHMgdGhlIG1vZGVyYXRvcnM/IFdoZXJlIGNhbiB3 ZSBjb21wbGFpbiBhYm91dCB0aGUgam9iIHRoZSBtb2RlcmF0b3JzIGFyZQ0KIGRvaW5nPyBXaWxs IHdlIGJlIGFsbG93ZWQgdG8gc3BlY3VsYXRlIG9uIHRoZSB2YWNjaW5lIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGlvbiB3 aGVuIGRlY2lkZWQgaWYgTm92ZW1iZXIgaXMgRjJGPyBDYW4gd2UgYmUgY29uc3RyYWluZWQgdG8g ZG8gdGhhdCB3aXRob3V0IGNvbXBhcmluZyBzb2NpZXRpZXM/PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rp dj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwv ZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjx1bCBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLXRvcDowaW4iIHR5cGU9ImRpc2MiPg0KPGxp IGNsYXNzPSJNc29MaXN0UGFyYWdyYXBoIiBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MGluO21zby1saXN0 OmwwIGxldmVsMSBsZm8xIj5JIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIHRoZSBJRVRGIHNob3VsZCBob3N0ICZxdW90 OzxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzppZXRmLWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmciPmlldGYtZGlzY3Vzc0BpZXRm Lm9yZzwvYT4mcXVvdDsgYXQgYWxsLCBidXQgaXQgc2VlbXMgSSdtIGluIHRoZSByb3VnaCB0aGVy ZS4NCjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9saT48L3VsPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJz cDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj5Gcm9tIHdoYXQgSSBoYXZlIHNlZW4s IHlvdXIgcHJvcG9zYWwgaXMgaW4gdGhlIHJvdWdoLiZuYnNwOyBJIGp1c3QgbG9va2VkIGF0IHRo ZSA0NCBtZXNzYWdlcyBpbiB0aGlzIHRocmVhZDsgdGhlcmUgd2VyZSB1bmRlciBhIGRvemVuIHBl b3BsZSwgYW5kIG5vYm9keSBzdXBwb3J0ZWQgeW91LiAmbmJzcDsoTWF5YmUsIGlmIHlvdSBzcXVp bnQsIHlvdSBjb3VsZCBjbGFpbSBTdGVwaGVuIGRvZXMuKSAmbmJzcDtJIGFzc3VtZSB5b3UgaGF2 ZQ0KIHByaXZhdGUgZW1haWwgdGhhdCB3YXMgaW4gZmF2b3IuPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBj bGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8 L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_3D340A9D1A394ADABA27E4E912CA6D03akamaicom_-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 13:54:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D013A306B for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:54:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tcdud.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UUK9QCAN3K0C for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70123.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CB7D3A3068 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:54:32 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=lKdWzrB4X/GLMRb05OL0OeOWqGgcPqXJgy732Ky9NgvxOSnHLs5vpMIJOjTkhIO5qQBykDbLvn+EpvXpvHaV/o5gRBaKcqWFeM6bOWKgN32DIGjdzbtO/GhQt5S2afuu1R1gPgoM7v4IXFWs5Lc9QNUGAET2/GsVuM7SVAZsTmnnKdVMMsxmzE+ThOAwCa8WvahkXwdycqPWO41vGsysqL6TooZ7SR9RwKiFLQUIe5zuFADxVZucKluqrqMLZQFn+p3dI4YXgroYqlTa68YVls7iH7f5M1g8+DLHYUXQJ03WaiMmxBGdkDc3CdckL4L3xpmRnGxxIy44q/eeLjaztg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=YjXFTdxQVnoOSQvBLeaF8kBfb0uHXgyVsUT1la2NkQ8=; b=nKckQlnhQlqH5aE9IDUh5u8pEwpjeylnCEQ78NRPmDZJZIiOodhcVLdOKwq1W+fJfiIkaqp6i5o8sMurbW00uHe9w+aJeFOVNf6NbweYp9+X51D3JyEXyabGK2yh8/GgygQNaf4PBBoM4ltJ/Psp9e/ehc/uzgB4UxOt9h3NAbmmHG17dijfGmY/OWjguPQDEcEXOWLlEtmcCEZxIAuMan6o/UE5iqfxAmF4STY1ML9u+Qz8JVtQyw/EwqC32O5GLkSEmMYE65ghj9W+Kt3UhQN7pFGmSCuPw93Sy0bKKzfWAJNkPhtrfQXDcCwIXV5mOj1NCxQP7qpx/18p6XYa7A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=TCDUD.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-TCDUD-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=YjXFTdxQVnoOSQvBLeaF8kBfb0uHXgyVsUT1la2NkQ8=; b=G8uihTK3c2X3BiO1wkUi4qq8N1gWcN3jO+I2eLqXlLhWoYnefkoVHsDbLQO9bt69VysEv/hsS3paZOVjhQ6OUJoC0GYOKDnmPoiJciHr7wS6Hc01+02Y4uqoBZws+5aEKWvUL6UTgGiAWfD14EMgrey5JlXMtaKkqgLVzzhlWmI= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR0202MB2534.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:26::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.27; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:54:28 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:54:27 +0000 To: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <5cce598c-737f-b76f-7552-36e058a6b8aa@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:54:26 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mSvo9uUX6Xn5hQ5ShIy1kKzdu7aHix3Kl" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:86a9:5f23:70cf:f2cb] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6P18901CA0017.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:4:16::27) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:86a9:5f23:70cf:f2cb] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:86a9:5f23:70cf:f2cb) by DB6P18901CA0017.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:4:16::27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4020.16 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:54:27 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: df621e85-e374-459f-d273-08d8f93e2ab7 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR0202MB2534: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:813; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(136003)(366004)(376002)(346002)(39860400002)(235185007)(21480400003)(5660300002)(33964004)(31696002)(53546011)(52116002)(86362001)(38100700001)(31686004)(6486002)(66946007)(66616009)(66476007)(66556008)(83380400001)(8936002)(8676002)(110136005)(316002)(786003)(2616005)(186003)(2906002)(16526019)(36756003)(44832011)(4326008)(45080400002)(478600001)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?a3JCeklxamR4SXlBd0NueE04WWU3NDFLck5nR3JvN3ptT0NzUFd3clZPQ0FH?= =?utf-8?B?MUtGQU1QUVptbmJsN3dCb1ZYa2V2M3N1MnpUbzNzQllyWmFONlRCaWdWS1lW?= =?utf-8?B?WVduMEsxSmZZeFVyRmdLclpiR1JnWWlsSHV5Nm9QdGVLL0xPV3NtaTFMRlpK?= =?utf-8?B?clloYk1xMEVaYVY2a2FaWnFvNTREcFUxNWs2aG10RlRwNFdWYjBFenE5QVRD?= =?utf-8?B?ZnNnWUtTKy9oTEU5MEhWR0xSOGg4RTNUd1RqdXJldmVEVHY1UEVXU3BzMXBG?= =?utf-8?B?Nyt3SkUwbGVUSEo5TUxFdEZSdDk2U3U1Q0ltUkJMR1JsOVR3dGM4cWNWRDdL?= =?utf-8?B?MnA1OFpmczYyQU1VMm5OdmdWTDJlSUVibG44NXRlT0RmSXZCblExN2dISkFn?= =?utf-8?B?bUQ5c0xRTklnMG0wd0hWUVRvcnJraTVmRWVXcURTMSt4dWE2MXE2OTA1Zmt4?= =?utf-8?B?N01BWk9SZGlaR0haN0IvQ3NnY0c0bGxZeTNKWGRzNS9jVmdDQmtBL0dqNWlw?= =?utf-8?B?VXRWcDFOaUtKTGxQYmJMZmJIWTJIWUQ3bnZnNWcwbHJGa2gyYk1nQ3lsZDBH?= =?utf-8?B?WFhxbHY0cDJrdllzcXFrSE5pZzh5V2FyZ0FTM0UzS2N4WENHY1hPdVFOam9H?= =?utf-8?B?ODFhZmhSaTA4T1pYS2t0cUlrWWxNTkE2MmFpdmE3ZGxBTlBLVlFVWkVGOXFT?= =?utf-8?B?WEFoY2NjZnJXR2o5Z2V6ZngxSlZCaUdJMlp2QXdVanZhcVk0dHlVN2VrY2ht?= =?utf-8?B?KzBGQ3hPUzVvRERqeVNsLzhBbjhncVFSU0NJaGMyKzdvTFBPc1JveVpqVm1v?= =?utf-8?B?Q2N0MVRON1FzU0FGOU1nRUtuN3FoOTl3TWxRSVZGNFprL0gxSWlocE5CMGVN?= =?utf-8?B?SDdyeTM2bEsvUzh5ZldZSVRWL2NzcjNaMEpERTZ0MWFhUWlrV1laVE1jeHNi?= =?utf-8?B?U2E0VWlnT2xBVGRWR24xZlRDdHQ2MG1YbFJncVRIUnFVeklrRGFhWnpKcjdM?= =?utf-8?B?SzhqWWI1ZEltRzlaQndrNHdlc0o0a2thM3dJZWI0bTJtOUZoQzhSQ0dtOWds?= =?utf-8?B?UlFvTERRYUY5UVRVMWN0b2UrbGZPMDJNNm1IYk1TSVlzblhIQWlpM1NhdE5V?= =?utf-8?B?clQrTXFkUjhWM0JEOUdlODM3WUFNVXhpSmRzK1B1OHJDcEtSS3d4ci9ydm5l?= =?utf-8?B?ZG5aaytCVU1CWXBsM0NNZzJrNEtiRzJFMG9RTFdtejJEcEJJcFhMRlBKZTRa?= =?utf-8?B?cEl5NjFYTmc3Tkl0ZXBFaGVaalhQd3Q1djhFcnBOU1ArM3IyLzRDSzVUUkZh?= =?utf-8?B?YmxlV0RZL0dQTWZXclJnWXcrUVhDVWJ0T241NEp3Y1RzS2lJSm5zOGwwMzBZ?= =?utf-8?B?L2JGc3duMWdCUnh2UDVaVEtqZnNocUFwU25JQVl4eEhhM29KeEI2V2VpYWJt?= =?utf-8?B?c2lJYm1OTkNzS20yMDg3QjB3VkdXSi83aHNKUEwzRFhBWWp0b2lsNXZXQ2Fx?= =?utf-8?B?TkhZbElJWFJpMzdnTzJxTWk3SHZ0S0JZMHFTak13QmVDQm5vNitENFE1ZGp4?= =?utf-8?B?OVVSRDFFN25Bbm1SVDVWc3F3UisrQzd6cUNFYnBPNVNsT1hJQVYyc21LQUFQ?= =?utf-8?B?U2hDamtDTjRhd05RZE82WTZWQ1RRaDkzdlZkQTU2cFZlaW5ENFNQNVpHQXND?= =?utf-8?B?YUxQcHNnSElNdm9ZUHVNS1NLV3RYVDBBWmdqcFJmVnI4RlRydVY2bDNlTTZ1?= =?utf-8?B?RWtLQmZYVjFqeXdlTS9OclFIRVRadWlpZjVpcGpkVFdUZE05aDBPY2JZellE?= =?utf-8?B?R2pJT3RJd2VlQjRkVjgxSlhnSFNzSG1SODdaYkgwd1FKd0ZGcG5Tb2YwMld5?= =?utf-8?Q?Tyf37Nset6f8M?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: df621e85-e374-459f-d273-08d8f93e2ab7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2021 20:54:27.7161 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: ksvyfTNs6WqM1gy3f5nlIrIIUws08EriiqX30klIWrvX+8dDbijMBroj7E2/AnlC X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0202MB2534 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 20:54:36 -0000 --mSvo9uUX6Xn5hQ5ShIy1kKzdu7aHix3Kl Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="gGF5l0HD9qlXFPRJCIG4T1Pqb9xWiqUge"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <5cce598c-737f-b76f-7552-36e058a6b8aa@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> --gGF5l0HD9qlXFPRJCIG4T1Pqb9xWiqUge Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8A6DA07C5D66A07B25C9CBFD" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8A6DA07C5D66A07B25C9CBFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/04/2021 21:45, Salz, Rich wrote: > From what I have seen, your proposal is in the rough. I just looked > at the 44 messages in this thread; there were under a dozen people, > and nobody supported you. (Maybe, if you squint, you could claim > Stephen does.) Eh? I think I said it was an awful idea. It still is IMO:-) S. --------------8A6DA07C5D66A07B25C9CBFD Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------8A6DA07C5D66A07B25C9CBFD-- --gGF5l0HD9qlXFPRJCIG4T1Pqb9xWiqUge-- --mSvo9uUX6Xn5hQ5ShIy1kKzdu7aHix3Kl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmBsyoIFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+pB qBAAmloMV2jUnt6yzhmrq9dKKMDZ/RNZemIIBkF6eJwBgtDuM4IykCAeUCvD0zxSM/G4TheElrf8 YMaMwxZr1ZMUXhh/PVH9jPRBhBiPA8bunzKNm78kwjPiQxqlr/RBLObaPsTkNifhwYAiFTB+cysf aqcPakk9o5cya5Za8Zi+/vmfdiMzixfORFaUfDlKWqF/1AQ7iItvg/8umfgCVi0jE9crgYOiEOJb BrEvCWb3/p/KfuiUxySba+pAakWiDRI4aC3K5JdgbBYMxYFjHlBkUx3C2iiNS2Kkp9gX1/mwV+0r LQhXoGRYzFgAmoGCIzdQK85Yw7NoO+TQACu+lX5e6SgqP2NNU9F5RwvOGZRZUOSoju0CsEeCS+/4 UQH5vHUuLAHX4XWWebSJasQa0I+7EFrUqVxRMuT35sERuaY6smfpnffPsF2bF1XP907wkkW5N6lE AR6/XaZfBvpJMHG4kCWN+IJwJILDnkxCYujd1TGm25PEoqFPHVCSmwo3LDzexAJIm43vj/K/TtVJ 1PhPCZ5YlEq+l0jrJHxzsHj80FEMYODJdWXcM7IxooaQHCBCwKrbBq9Fb9moaldMXo9JLB3nKvdE JAU9IbHBRU2RUwE4oAQyQKZJBTqGSKLh93dgx9UpejdJs5Z4XrKxazEgFluGtUY1oTijkmvCTxzg 0bE= =boGa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mSvo9uUX6Xn5hQ5ShIy1kKzdu7aHix3Kl-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 13:56:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E92E3A3079 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:56:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id shatI9Az2tBG for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87C223A3074 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 136KrtVU004038; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:56:03 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=rpvxScPcCmi4ZhKi5q3Vmg5kGAY4CNBn4GzR6FbpEss=; b=pAGjFgTOa9ElpzbfceMmBszsa47WBWAirJ0gZdFu+PMUzGunUHMjO8CNy338tmsr+fUn eRrIF0lM3xijrc9ytUCdPABJRpZch2SPToh9B826ih5Q6SbOH73cBcAXplpri7CsEM/Z yJmpI9Qrs+AI0A4FrQYw7xwJEYqzhLA6ZH3l0NKbJW63yFLV5Mzh7fFaRGrv2iir64am xt9VnBnf3vidiedE+3qQKhCNT4FRDR9+iNGV26qUg1soHkeyh/ssrCJQpPEMVQRzfJNJ UWAW/6Jr8tdKpr46cOQOix+qddhir8XD7SXQeYKLubMARNcjS7AOEh7JwMrAP+X7f22R Fg== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 37rvqnvr13-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:56:03 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 136KnYU1004012; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:56:02 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 37rvqbra6r-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 13:56:02 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 16:56:01 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.012; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 16:56:01 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Stephen Farrell , Rob Sayre CC: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHXKDAT+puxFm5+c0mnHgx6RTeegaqnnieAgACBnID//9toAIAARZEA//+9ZIA= Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:56:01 +0000 Message-ID: <3522983F-5FD1-4589-9330-41974F2BA7AE@akamai.com> References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <5cce598c-737f-b76f-7552-36e058a6b8aa@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <5cce598c-737f-b76f-7552-36e058a6b8aa@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.48.21040401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_07:2021-04-06, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104060142 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: gvPcjJntm1hPpW94MNBdAJCSmLr4yj7z X-Proofpoint-GUID: gvPcjJntm1hPpW94MNBdAJCSmLr4yj7z X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_07:2021-04-06, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104060143 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.60) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 20:56:14 -0000 ICAgID4gYW5kIG5vYm9keSBzdXBwb3J0ZWQgeW91LiAgKE1heWJlLCBpZiB5b3Ugc3F1aW50LCB5 b3UgY291bGQgY2xhaW0NCiAgICA+IFN0ZXBoZW4gZG9lcy4pDQoNCiAgICBFaD8gSSB0aGluayBJ IHNhaWQgaXQgd2FzIGFuIGF3ZnVsIGlkZWEuIEl0IHN0aWxsIGlzIElNTzotKQ0KDQpJIHdhcyB0 cnlpbmcgdG8gZ2l2ZSBSb2IgdGhlIGJlbmVmaXQgb2YgdGhlIGRvdWJ0IGluIGNsYWltaW5nIHN1 cHBvcnQgLCBzaW5jZSB5b3UgZGlkIHRoaW5rIG1vZGVyYXRpb24gY291bGQgYmUgZ29vZCBidXQg bm90IGltcGxlbWVudGFibGUuDQoNClNvcnJ5IGZvciBtaXMtaW50ZXJwcmV0aW5nISENCg0K From nobody Tue Apr 6 13:57:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0297F3A3085 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KKp15rVyZliM for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99F233A3080 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id e8so17030437iok.5 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 13:57:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=G5W0MxnQ+6NVjTUK5NH8w3CIZHlh3NP3CDGghptoOCM=; b=UuzQtdPkODkQ3nKjvfiaoP1z7yjtfEzsR0pWZrJZ3IOoVSL/X88XS+C4Dmext3cl/B 24S8HNco51pyPQxXHkm8DqxvTUggUVPDQN+izPPNQT+3B3wkCu+rtq9czEQqLeLjt/j3 u6pyZKn/D4u2ldZOvhn9p+vh2NPmtIFMzS0VKTUoAPe09ZljEh/5Y63KLQYSpJGBmx0Q sc2spTG7qv5pInh7HB4iNwV6/fuAmjRT/ec8HQB0IThLtI2Xje9kfsotzp9rmdiDloBc e4sAZwyDs6Kt5JijdUs/hRh8uDMukYQRquMlp+m3XCUhFtY+e3KFf2qne7/Fhq/5ygnz odiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=G5W0MxnQ+6NVjTUK5NH8w3CIZHlh3NP3CDGghptoOCM=; b=PVKD8sI0D8PCBusxv70YGYzKI6VK5UcYOfCXLJXmnG5G1vqOggwI1Zos0PZ91zBTQV 11QazA5MI5orLvFXJXqmeemr1pQW0h500SYZiVcFTDhRB63NxOioGJUcOLblBn3G9f7n QoGqEug1MRNqxCfz4BEpsJnG9LOw9H6MywjVXzGpzVGIHGkEeJM059EpC4Z1CQcVAmAi u2eB7O9aCjTzMAbbA/7jJXoTqkYtRa3S5S4wklOP7ZWOnCe67ZcuUSaSPO5IdDuDvl3/ 2FC8zLWeQ0YacPHSMiPcMC95t1CsrfqBC66pfKiQkHnU2rtbTqRCP8bay8MQClhd0WIX Gc8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wIEhUj1I62LV6OV5LVrzW6AaGc3Ep2GvWbdJ9Wprog7jeVdnc WLYMw7y6/15l6vIWMOrPdc0kknn/JEhy3Hjh6loGCqfdj0c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyqoHS8UgxbBp4N/VQRcTQE5TXxIDShbAmcXVU4fZzqnTkSpi3XJBkgkayGzu0/ic507pxE2ENsLSyNnGrRolY= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:89d9:: with SMTP id a25mr25310674iot.69.1617742637121; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 13:57:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <5cce598c-737f-b76f-7552-36e058a6b8aa@cs.tcd.ie> <3522983F-5FD1-4589-9330-41974F2BA7AE@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <3522983F-5FD1-4589-9330-41974F2BA7AE@akamai.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:57:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Stephen Farrell , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003946c505bf540fd1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 20:57:27 -0000 --0000000000003946c505bf540fd1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for the unsolicited consensus call. :) thanks, Rob On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 1:56 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > > and nobody supported you. (Maybe, if you squint, you could claim > > Stephen does.) > > Eh? I think I said it was an awful idea. It still is IMO:-) > > I was trying to give Rob the benefit of the doubt in claiming support , > since you did think moderation could be good but not implementable. > > Sorry for mis-interpreting!! > > --0000000000003946c505bf540fd1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the unsolicited consensus call. :)

thanks,
Rob

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 1:56 PM Salz, Rich= <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >= and nobody supported you.=C2=A0 (Maybe, if you squint, you could claim
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Stephen does.)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eh? I think I said it was an awful idea. It still is IMO:-)
I was trying to give Rob the benefit of the doubt in claiming support , sin= ce you did think moderation could be good but not implementable.

Sorry for mis-interpreting!!

--0000000000003946c505bf540fd1-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 14:10:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73ECD3A315A for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FMaMpH4HrnGj; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 591A73A3145; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:10:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <7FA2090F-8F56-4317-9C41-AD212086238D@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_416EBFD1-B0DB-4A46-8376-FB05BF3C1EA6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:10:33 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: Rob Sayre References: <0B831660-F016-4B49-BC92-04BDFB138ECF@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:10:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_416EBFD1-B0DB-4A46-8376-FB05BF3C1EA6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 7/04/2021, at 8:07 AM, Rob Sayre wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:50 PM Jay Daley > wrote: >>=20 >> I might simplify the proposal to: >>=20 >> ietf@ietf.org :=20 >> - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of technical issues that are candidates for = IETF work, but do not yet have an appropriate e-mail venue=E2=80=9D >=20 >=20 >> - =E2=80=9CQuestions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings=E2=80= =9D >=20 > This one should be admin-discuss@ietf.org = . >=20 >> - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of IETF administrative policies=E2=80=9D >=20 > This one could be admin-discuss@ietf.org = if the other areas with admin = responsibilities agree. I would prefer that to avoid confusion. >=20 > Those suggestions sound reasonable to me, although it might be a good = idea to have that list, last-call, the IESG, the IAB, and the RFC Editor = post summaries to ietf@ periodically, much like some WGs do with GitHub = activity. I would prefer that to be ietf-announce@ietf.org as that list already = has a high volume and a wide range of subjects. Jay >=20 > That way, people can track what's going on, but have a place to follow = up. All of those areas have (slightly) different norms at the moment, so = that actually sounds an improvement to me. I suppose that gets closer to = Rob Wilton's suggestion of a read-only alias. >=20 > I think it might be ok to leave it as a writeable list, though. That = way people can ask questions (which will hopefully get swiftly = redirected). >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_416EBFD1-B0DB-4A46-8376-FB05BF3C1EA6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 7/04/2021, at 8:07 AM, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> = wrote:

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 = at 12:50 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

I might simplify the proposal = to:

ietf@ietf.org: 
 - = =E2=80=9CDiscussion of technical issues that are candidates for IETF = work, but do not yet have an appropriate e-mail = venue=E2=80=9D


 - =E2=80=9CQuestions and clarifications concerning IETF = meetings=E2=80=9D

This one should be admin-discuss@ietf.org.

 -= =E2=80=9CDiscussion of IETF administrative = policies=E2=80=9D

This one could be admin-discuss@ietf.org if the other areas with admin = responsibilities agree.  I would prefer that to avoid = confusion.

Those suggestions sound reasonable to = me, although it might be a good idea to have that list, last-call, the = IESG, the IAB, and the RFC Editor post summaries to ietf@ periodically, = much like some WGs do with GitHub = activity.

I would prefer that to be ietf-announce@ietf.org as that list already has a high = volume and a wide range of subjects.

Jay



That way, people can track what's going = on, but have a place to follow up. All of those areas have (slightly) = different norms at the moment, so that actually sounds an improvement to = me. I suppose that gets closer to Rob Wilton's suggestion of a read-only = alias.

I think = it might be ok to leave it as a writeable list, though. That way people = can ask questions (which will hopefully get swiftly = redirected).

thanks,
Rob

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_416EBFD1-B0DB-4A46-8376-FB05BF3C1EA6-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 14:12:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0583A3115 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:12:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qFbdid1AGl0a for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 245033A3211 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id w2so11450006ilj.12 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 14:11:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0biuCsmRwC/w4KujMDe74Ix508OtsmMyIomzdDi0vX4=; b=ZlT+IDqYiUf0FhUOiwFpDp0XfFOlhpximjOZWumsxPP1MpVExxcqXbi4uWLTp26LEZ dbIyGB4DaPR/1MKYTO5RFco/C5vBhis1CY3VTAa268CWpKkTxycqGScbmnKIGtjcTd2J MOQ7wtSKjRKnUXYw231wertfYCu9/HyjdVXVKJzCbcP0j2ydz7UzNZHZRd7VnG3m1tzI QyX8vGHbpcu2/Lk67Y/eJxwQQtUkUwWG23xRhcUqNRV9u4wckzk1ikWOC76AM5bXPhxF bwJJ3vp9NzypjcbK8R2NLpJzNNq92cQsqbCur4+jtfNPg/agBoAKF0vxP0Gvw1BcMIxA IlPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0biuCsmRwC/w4KujMDe74Ix508OtsmMyIomzdDi0vX4=; b=ZrqS009bwGIEgj7+YZS1qBrxsiurJwSy4HKIfDLRGhLwCow+Ztpy5UbDuRir3FUe8k 4onz4TlWOSTuE2vSiBL2CSzs7C/uq7elfXv0Os4tk5kry+Kws5Z7eh/qUMEO8E+a7Kzo KYokevgLocwfDXeBFrWpYUeZ22mlCY+u/lj5tju0bs66Db/Ka7/tYcJ8HjohTnUYt8zf Nuqs9q9ESgjL9pwJGio1jXwUDrArQd5B3tzV3crfV0ydXiTCKGaH8SeuEOJgJz2b/oh/ 65VBQE3seF8SJXZmW6A0TZ9TDwbUbQD5J7wnspvWR2SpQZk+iNcnos5ZEFnyYdNoS3W8 b2MQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kpsv8/eNfiNf4z+T76u6zQmprplCAJYjrk0ginI3PIPkCI2R0 Ru8FAK9iKLdHN5ifwcnUWxRybi+2gKA4wV3zbw8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJycHU0O75cYNu/BvMY5SXXEWznue5VclISsTurxsgUcBfOTx0jyFPz2hyXl7cw4ltr0bPwr9PZub3UK74dm4w8= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d68c:: with SMTP id p12mr205014iln.73.1617743516332; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 14:11:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <5cce598c-737f-b76f-7552-36e058a6b8aa@cs.tcd.ie> <3522983F-5FD1-4589-9330-41974F2BA7AE@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:11:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Stephen Farrell , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a0f83205bf544388" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:12:53 -0000 --000000000000a0f83205bf544388 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rich, > Should we take steps to encourage more women and under-represented groups of people into leadership? Where and how do we discuss that question? And then, if the consensus is yes, where and how do we discuss mechanisms to do so? Sure, you could make a mailing list or WG for that, but discuss it on the IETF list prior to that. > How do we discuss whether or not to hold an online meeting or a F2F one, and how do we keep the conversation from getting into the =E2=80=9CUS domin= ates=E2=80=9D discussion? I think that would be the admin list Jay mentioned. > Is this list moderated? Who appoints the moderators? Where can we complain about the job the moderators are doing? I think most IETF lists have mechanisms for this. There's no reason to be attached to a solution. > Will we be allowed to speculate on the vaccine distribution when decided if November is F2F? Can we be constrained to do that without comparing societies? This is a good example of a problem the IETF is not well-suited to speculate on or address. I think they'll probably just do whatever the professional event planners and insurance companies recommend. But, I don't organize conferences. > From what I have seen, your proposal is in the rough. I just looked at the 44 messages in this thread; there were under a dozen people, and nobody supported you. I think your message is a good example of something that drives people away from the IETF: some back-and-forth messages you don't agree with, and then the flames start. thanks, Rob On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > Thanks for the unsolicited consensus call. :) > > thanks, > Rob > > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 1:56 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > >> > and nobody supported you. (Maybe, if you squint, you could claim >> > Stephen does.) >> >> Eh? I think I said it was an awful idea. It still is IMO:-) >> >> I was trying to give Rob the benefit of the doubt in claiming support , >> since you did think moderation could be good but not implementable. >> >> Sorry for mis-interpreting!! >> >> --000000000000a0f83205bf544388 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Rich,

> Should we take step= s to encourage more women and under-represented groups of people into leade= rship?=C2=A0Where and how do we discuss that question?=C2=A0 And then, if t= he consensus is yes, where and how do we discuss mechanisms to do so?=C2=A0=

Sure, you could make a mailing list or WG for that= , but discuss it on the IETF list prior to that.

> Ho= w do we discuss whether or not to hold an online meeting or a F2F one, and = how do we keep the conversation from getting into the =E2=80=9CUS dominates= =E2=80=9D discussion?

I think that would be the ad= min list Jay mentioned.

> Is this list moderate= d? Who appoints the moderators? Where can we complain about the job the mod= erators are doing?=C2=A0

I think most IETF lists h= ave mechanisms for this. There's no reason to be attached to a solution= .

> Will we be allowed to speculate on the vacc= ine distribution when decided if November is F2F? Can we be constrained to = do that without comparing societies?

This is a good example of a problem the IETF is not well-suited to specu= late on or address. I think they'll probably just do whatever the profe= ssional event planners and insurance companies recommend. But, I don't = organize conferences.

> From what I have seen, = your proposal is in the rough.=C2=A0 I just looked at the 44 messages in th= is thread; there were under a dozen people, and nobody supported you.
=

I think your message is a good example of something tha= t drives people away from the IETF: some back-and-forth messages you don= 9;t agree=C2=A0with, and then the flames start.

th= anks,
Rob


On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rob = Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrot= e:
Thanks for the unsolicited consensus call. :)

thanks= ,
Rob

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 1:56 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wro= te:
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 > and nobody supported you.=C2=A0 (Maybe, if you squint, you could c= laim
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Stephen does.)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eh? I think I said it was an awful idea. It still is IMO:-)
I was trying to give Rob the benefit of the doubt in claiming support , sin= ce you did think moderation could be good but not implementable.

Sorry for mis-interpreting!!

--000000000000a0f83205bf544388-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 14:15:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FA43A3110 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JNJi_wKLltIr for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 809C93A311A for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 136L0fpj026773; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:15:38 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=s5DJN/bzsfxNxQvF68pidSFs4zRLV+WatXkLVn2TFBs=; b=G9L0w2rj71OOsvv7mHNaMPb/1SPztPofE90k6s3bXePsvBha4e2hsdLaJMFmWK23Gkmy 5XDl36aFbn9Wor7Gum6jTf4DDO2XmjVToms8oLUHqyKQiWVomZ93itG/pBVgprB0nW5m CdA1CCHpQaUdHfOeavhFO+HnDrznIL9rr+KlDBJIwHkjAcwYsQn5rc35pxo60tSAFioQ C7UFT0sU+oWX7Ua7y144kL4P6GtwaGo+2Y66ShlBqRWtyGsNhLzY3seE82kPtreyxSyY zE1BKCi78vLPJjmj9lPM0tLIDBdc01idJjoFGVRIGAXyjbzJD31pUJuWs2uyUtVt7B8f MA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint6 (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [184.51.33.61] (may be forged)) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 37rvktw7gj-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 22:15:38 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 136L3cPn021066; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:15:37 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.34]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 37rvw209jc-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 17:15:36 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:15:35 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.012; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:15:36 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Rob Sayre CC: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHXKDAT+puxFm5+c0mnHgx6RTeegaqnnieAgACBnID//9toAIAARZEA//+9ZICAAENagIAABBmA//++BIA= Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:15:35 +0000 Message-ID: <3098E643-AF15-4D16-BE1B-961C03AC08F7@akamai.com> References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <5cce598c-737f-b76f-7552-36e058a6b8aa@cs.tcd.ie> <3522983F-5FD1-4589-9330-41974F2BA7AE@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.48.21040401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3098E643AF154D16BE1B961C03AC08F7akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_07:2021-04-06, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=554 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104060144 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Awa90UaqKR7g6dm07DPKE-vKYdwE27Gs X-Proofpoint-GUID: Awa90UaqKR7g6dm07DPKE-vKYdwE27Gs X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_07:2021-04-06, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=475 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104060144 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.61) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:15:44 -0000 --_000_3098E643AF154D16BE1B961C03AC08F7akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 ICAqICAgPiBGcm9tIHdoYXQgSSBoYXZlIHNlZW4sIHlvdXIgcHJvcG9zYWwgaXMgaW4gdGhlIHJv dWdoLiAgSSBqdXN0IGxvb2tlZCBhdCB0aGUgNDQgbWVzc2FnZXMgaW4gdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQ7IHRo ZXJlIHdlcmUgdW5kZXIgYSBkb3plbiBwZW9wbGUsIGFuZCBub2JvZHkgc3VwcG9ydGVkIHlvdS4N Cg0KDQogICogICBJIHRoaW5rIHlvdXIgbWVzc2FnZSBpcyBhIGdvb2QgZXhhbXBsZSBvZiBzb21l dGhpbmcgdGhhdCBkcml2ZXMgcGVvcGxlIGF3YXkgZnJvbSB0aGUgSUVURjogc29tZSBiYWNrLWFu ZC1mb3J0aCBtZXNzYWdlcyB5b3UgZG9uJ3QgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCwgYW5kIHRoZW4gdGhlIGZsYW1l cyBzdGFydC4NCg0KQXJlIHlvdSBzdXJlIHlvdSBtZWFuIG1lLCBhbmQgbm90IHlvdXJzZWxmPyAg QXQgYW55IHJhdGUsIEkgYWRtaXJlIHlvdSBzdGlja2luZyB1cCBmb3IgeW91ciBpZGVhIGluIHRo ZSBmYWNlIG9mIHVuaXZlcnNhbCBkaXNsaWtlLg0KDQpJ4oCZbSBwcmV0dHkgc2FuZ3VpbmUgYWJv dXQgd2hhdCB0aGUgb3V0Y29tZSB3aWxsIGJlLg0K --_000_3098E643AF154D16BE1B961C03AC08F7akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <8A81D4FD43E70648825E90AA45AB6131@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6NSAwIDAgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDAg MDt9DQpAZm9udC1mYWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYW1icmlhIE1hdGgiOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0x OjIgNCA1IDMgNSA0IDYgMyAyIDQ7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpDYWxpYnJp Ow0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIgMTUgNSAyIDIgMiA0IDMgMiA0O30NCi8qIFN0eWxlIERlZmluaXRpb25z ICovDQpwLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgbGkuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBkaXYuTXNvTm9ybWFsDQoJe21hcmdpbjow aW47DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJp Zjt9DQpwLk1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgsIGxpLk1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgsIGRpdi5Nc29MaXN0 UGFyYWdyYXBoDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTozNDsNCgltYXJnaW4tdG9wOjBpbjsNCglt YXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6MGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1ib3R0b206MGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0Oi41aW47 DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjt9 DQpzcGFuLkVtYWlsU3R5bGUxOA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpwZXJzb25hbC1yZXBseTsNCglm b250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgljb2xvcjp3aW5kb3d0ZXh0O30NCi5N c29DaHBEZWZhdWx0DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOmV4cG9ydC1vbmx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZTox MC4wcHQ7fQ0KQHBhZ2UgV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3NpemU6OC41aW4gMTEuMGluOw0KCW1hcmdp bjoxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbjt9DQpkaXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6V29y ZFNlY3Rpb24xO30NCi8qIExpc3QgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBsaXN0IGwwDQoJe21zby1saXN0 LWlkOjIwNDMxNjkwNjM7DQoJbXNvLWxpc3QtdHlwZTpoeWJyaWQ7DQoJbXNvLWxpc3QtdGVtcGxh dGUtaWRzOjg5NzMzMTQyNCAxMzkxMjQxMjc0IDY3Njk4NjkxIDY3Njk4NjkzIDY3Njk4Njg5IDY3 Njk4NjkxIDY3Njk4NjkzIDY3Njk4Njg5IDY3Njk4NjkxIDY3Njk4NjkzO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxl dmVsMQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtc3RhcnQtYXQ6MDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpi dWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674OYOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0K CW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47DQoJ bXNvLWFuc2ktZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7DQoJbXNv LWZhcmVhc3QtZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IlRpbWVzIE5ldyBSb21hbiI7DQoJbXNvLWJpZGktZm9udC1m YW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCgltc28tYW5zaS1mb250LXdlaWdodDpib2xkO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxl dmVsMg0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6 bzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9u OmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LS4yNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDb3VyaWVyIE5ldyI7 fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWwzDQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCglt c28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgqc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVs LW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWls eTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw0DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0 OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgrc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7 DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsN Cglmb250LWZhbWlseTpTeW1ib2w7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw1DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1i ZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDpvOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3Rv cDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDot LjI1aW47DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNvdXJpZXIgTmV3Ijt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDYNCgl7 bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CpzsNCglt c28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7 DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LS4yNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OldpbmdkaW5nczt9DQpAbGlzdCBs MDpsZXZlbDcNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10 ZXh0Ou+CtzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBv c2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LS4yNWluOw0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OlN5bWJvbDt9 DQpAbGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDgNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1z by1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Om87DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51 bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0uMjVpbjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToi Q291cmllciBOZXciO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsOQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1h dDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674KnOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25l Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotLjI1aW47 DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6V2luZ2RpbmdzO30NCm9sDQoJe21hcmdpbi1ib3R0b206MGluO30NCnVs DQoJe21hcmdpbi1ib3R0b206MGluO30NCi0tPjwvc3R5bGU+DQo8L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keSBsYW5n PSJFTi1VUyIgbGluaz0iYmx1ZSIgdmxpbms9InB1cnBsZSIgc3R5bGU9IndvcmQtd3JhcDpicmVh ay13b3JkIj4NCjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9IldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMSI+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjx1bCBz dHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLXRvcDowaW4iIHR5cGU9ImRpc2MiPg0KPGxpIGNsYXNzPSJNc29MaXN0UGFy YWdyYXBoIiBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MGluO21zby1saXN0OmwwIGxldmVsMSBsZm8xIj4m Z3Q7IEZyb20gd2hhdCBJIGhhdmUgc2VlbiwgeW91ciBwcm9wb3NhbCBpcyBpbiB0aGUgcm91Z2gu Jm5ic3A7IEkganVzdCBsb29rZWQgYXQgdGhlIDQ0IG1lc3NhZ2VzIGluIHRoaXMgdGhyZWFkOyB0 aGVyZSB3ZXJlIHVuZGVyIGEgZG96ZW4gcGVvcGxlLCBhbmQgbm9ib2R5IHN1cHBvcnRlZCB5b3Uu PG86cD48L286cD48L2xpPjwvdWw+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFs Ij48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjx1bCBzdHlsZT0ibWFyZ2lu LXRvcDowaW4iIHR5cGU9ImRpc2MiPg0KPGxpIGNsYXNzPSJNc29MaXN0UGFyYWdyYXBoIiBzdHls ZT0ibWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6MGluO21zby1saXN0OmwwIGxldmVsMSBsZm8xIj5JIHRoaW5rIHlvdXIg bWVzc2FnZSBpcyBhIGdvb2QgZXhhbXBsZSBvZiBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCBkcml2ZXMgcGVvcGxl IGF3YXkgZnJvbSB0aGUgSUVURjogc29tZSBiYWNrLWFuZC1mb3J0aCBtZXNzYWdlcyB5b3UgZG9u J3QgYWdyZWUmbmJzcDt3aXRoLCBhbmQgdGhlbiB0aGUgZmxhbWVzIHN0YXJ0LjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+ PC9saT48L3VsPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8 cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj5BcmUgeW91IHN1cmUgeW91IG1lYW4gbWUsIGFuZCBub3QgeW91 cnNlbGY/Jm5ic3A7IEF0IGFueSByYXRlLCBJIGFkbWlyZSB5b3Ugc3RpY2tpbmcgdXAgZm9yIHlv dXIgaWRlYSBpbiB0aGUgZmFjZSBvZiB1bml2ZXJzYWwgZGlzbGlrZS48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4N CjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+SeKAmW0gcHJldHR5IHNhbmd1aW5lIGFib3V0IHdoYXQgdGhlIG91dGNvbWUgd2ls bCBiZS48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwv aHRtbD4NCg== --_000_3098E643AF154D16BE1B961C03AC08F7akamaicom_-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 14:19:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8D13A3135; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:19:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3TxSF-fi2NjG; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3536F3A3134; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id o15so10270648ilf.11; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 14:19:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ULHrz3U510pvBQm3tfiYkqSrzEoNPN/6iUFyzJcuaiw=; b=MVVY0vG7mwUypTnfgXh8Dj9vvaKoE55737/WxyufSgwevz7J9xJrIUvkhSj+Zw6FtU +BSBlDTLDI4IhB023ovlkohR54Hj3CK0/AjaUAbFttIbNYI66fup83w70MjpkLw14yWa z8sC5AQF7NnacZ4wcFSCLsG+x+weW7NFrkLn1Gc3U3yT8Oi7YzdHZu4+Lb6bglES2vYt occtEmVws6Oog3GCmvI78Zrj4gIfeik+P8kXJXPTnysUm4FAPFNQ+IIoV2c0Eq52MU04 OqpcEQgbhVPYTloEYHz85ZUSPsEOn41hlkNNU9VLWDkCI/yINb+Nege6OOA5TkAhgaHE +k7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ULHrz3U510pvBQm3tfiYkqSrzEoNPN/6iUFyzJcuaiw=; b=Ko8gyWigaeA6JgCtYnZDgR75vXeT8On+AW57cwk6V76VwCpAuKpxmnX7+7T4IFZMy7 7xJHxWC2qSxd2//3lrfmN6RJilxTRt4Z71+YoKH1HzV2BnNsoExqGhszBNxiR1fQrmf9 ethdj+BqbuYkTP9z1zRSN8Xt+kT+tlUEu74VAfSYvJv8de8744DDN/wZODbQx3sQ1ahN BXdnnESNBwzItY7XtkbUQLGB0aV0KzPkcr1UjDmvbu+Su96sqSsL+NLSaDyG0DIzFtBz ezhi4Zb8FnyHSo65J3AzZ+OgzxNuqp9PWTVgRCmg3gDOxKe0VMo2QsWdOTP2JG2L14YU swZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533MD8kY2BRhPSfvR8zXURI4agJLSpK/ePWRWuEMgeKRlDmSCBow Y4IGUXFB8xF8RU1z14EqQOK8k4jKguluFHYFnL3VfONBoFcJeA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxIpq3XaZKf6uk5KYqwdMG71XiKlKYUDYHPxIxOREJ7Rn1LHRfDo6HcDgfQpqPIthzhw3G1e/XqDq6il0qe38o= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1561:: with SMTP id k1mr224131ilu.254.1617743978882; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 14:19:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0B831660-F016-4B49-BC92-04BDFB138ECF@ietf.org> <7FA2090F-8F56-4317-9C41-AD212086238D@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <7FA2090F-8F56-4317-9C41-AD212086238D@ietf.org> From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:19:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000032ebcc05bf545fa0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:19:46 -0000 --00000000000032ebcc05bf545fa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:10 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > I would prefer that to be ietf-announce@ietf.org as that list already has > a high volume and a wide range of subjects. > I find that one really noisy. For example, I pasted a day I just picked out of the archives. I suppose rolling things up the way I suggest would require some curation, although it may be minimal. Mar 26 2021 * Last Call: (Extended Optional Parameters Length for BGP OPEN Message) to Proposed Standard, The IESG * Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance (avtcore) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-05-24, IESG Secretary * WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term), The IESG * WG Action: Rechartered QUIC (quic), The IESG * IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-07-13, IESG Secretary * IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-06-29, IESG Secretary * IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-06-15, IESG Secretary * IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-06-01, IESG Secretary * IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-05-18, IESG Secretary * IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-05-04, IESG Secretary * IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-04-20, IESG Secretary * IETF 110 post-meeting survey results, IETF Executive Director thanks, Rob --00000000000032ebcc05bf545fa0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:10 PM Jay Daley = <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
=

I would prefe= r that to be ie= tf-announce@ietf.org as that list already has a high volume and a wide = range of subjects.

I find that = one really noisy. For example, I pasted a day I just picked out of the arch= ives. I suppose rolling things up the way I suggest would require some cura= tion, although it may be minimal.

Mar 26 2021
*= Last Call: <draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-11.txt> (Extended Optional = Parameters Length for BGP OPEN Message) to Proposed Standard, The IESG
*= Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance (avtcore) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-= 05-24, IESG Secretary
* WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documen= ts (term), The IESG
* WG Action: Rechartered QUIC (quic), The IESG
* = IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-07-= 13, IESG Secretary
* IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG V= irtual Meeting: 2021-06-29, IESG Secretary
* IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Ar= ea Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-06-15, IESG Secretary
* IPv= 6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-06-01,= IESG Secretary
* IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virt= ual Meeting: 2021-05-18, IESG Secretary
* IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area = Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-05-04, IESG Secretary
* IPv6 o= ver Low Power Wide-Area Networks (lpwan) WG Virtual Meeting: 2021-04-20, IE= SG Secretary
* IETF 110 post-meeting survey results, IETF Executive Dire= ctor

thanks,
Rob
=C2=A0
--00000000000032ebcc05bf545fa0-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 14:53:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC4F3A3259 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:53:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tcdud.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yKs_fw0Rrb5m for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr60092.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.6.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14B083A28CD for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:53:32 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Jtl/tzmAjrSQ8mN8J/UN6qh+/e/vRUL8u1UvatpSogzjeq9+X5R6sZehbWQGYhtIM+HkMFxg40sD7aaI1Bj4+3bAKZkCJIhpEiA+KkXE80amIsud8eeT4EHy6S0e96Ut6J/seodkFlSYc4Tv2XqpuLPi5XVrXFX5j9LaJqTxXod64XyOqcBf/c3edBLuoG6nURhy5uLz15xbzIL2fppLJ0YrheX4UExhjayi40jzO52AzlF+jZ3T/xnRNZaL6ANpE8iVuvU6tWRs5SYC1BtztMU5tfRK4szEMgM2H9YLgxxjV60wZYe/L4JluxIhQIJ14MHcK59KL/ig8TBFsj138Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Nquu/hMucLSXdbGwQMIwXszlf/l09o653j9KhM4UgIQ=; b=M9U2zaqy+jMqn54jYYvOQou79e6nUfO/petGtPGF9G6NjMzGScpRfHW0SK8rm4H7ifHZa3sXRBpPqPvdNF93AaM6Mb56ZBmOA95Jbt3JvGoC2tk0B2cXhcvzsxMWfImuQOSuJvKmSQZPww4xr4nu9+SRnMCEOkwUbChuDY5bE7lIc/PBBHbqIxuu1AboYmCeF7ciyHLW61dJHbMFD04sdWd7Rtuwdh1Lrsw4vMyUNKxLc9t+9RJqqlZDDwxge2c6N3bGlwL39kIYG06qIQ8vui85w5hTYqLFUf0+/gPJihf4oq9VNE1ftoW72K7R/UbP9ORQIaYsv4bdcKWAjYCPOg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=TCDUD.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-TCDUD-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Nquu/hMucLSXdbGwQMIwXszlf/l09o653j9KhM4UgIQ=; b=pCDinbaGwyyXHNPGPIOhNFv6OmeJjxd5PJJFgHsfDGNeGRGfL8bakWnKdFFscZLspbIjSoUGWwo1ZR7lyunGHur/4Jjkk9el9FStJ40WCo5iLcmSBPwGDKC/8FH/1jzL46J52sGnwB+ptp7+v4DQ/EGe87Mk23oL/+99HQOV7uc= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB8PR02MB5754.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:117::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.26; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:53:30 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:53:30 +0000 To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <90645d97-41ef-d09d-aa38-e15a8dddb293@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:53:27 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4yfdvkfp3zEQJshrvnldyybuvYUjOtAAQ" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044] X-ClientProxiedBy: DU2PR04CA0081.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:232::26) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044) by DU2PR04CA0081.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:232::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.27 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:53:29 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 024fbe33-9f92-4aa8-4af1-08d8f9466a65 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB8PR02MB5754: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:6108; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(376002)(136003)(39860400002)(346002)(366004)(38100700001)(8936002)(2906002)(66616009)(66556008)(21480400003)(2616005)(52116002)(83380400001)(86362001)(16526019)(186003)(33964004)(66574015)(5660300002)(44832011)(66946007)(8676002)(786003)(235185007)(316002)(36756003)(45080400002)(478600001)(110136005)(31686004)(53546011)(6486002)(66476007)(31696002)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?bTdGMkNqdGtZOEhyVW1lcURjVlRSUUdEcXlHNEliOGMyRWNHbVBXdU90Z3Qv?= =?utf-8?B?MisrazBlVGFuZFJJN2c2WmZ1Y1lqL3JMVGgzSENaUkk1VkNUR1AvcG9jZ3d4?= =?utf-8?B?SmxBRXRmQlI0THlKTlZvQiszK0hCTDUxR0E0b3FUMzZiNHIzNi9iRmVxVFg5?= =?utf-8?B?NGM4VlVWSmFITnFqRFd0RTRzM1JNN2l2enIvcDE4ZWpreFh3N3hRaWptaVkx?= =?utf-8?B?b1NCVVdlL2pFTWtQdUs3UGppR0s1RXZ1MnNMajh1Ukt5blljOHRHY2dlcG9k?= =?utf-8?B?RmNLb241NGMrRDdSOVJJZXVHV24vYk5mUU5tUzZEL0xGYnN1Z3M0Z0VjVDFG?= =?utf-8?B?em05NTFndGVrYVVWR05LL2c3WDZVZEhzUTA5V3IzTTJEVlZ6VGVzendMQU94?= =?utf-8?B?ZFlwTXJhdkZHbERyYzI4RVkza0lNSHBqdXUzNWFUMlU3bGJqcEhkcWtaZ1FE?= =?utf-8?B?YlV4bUVGOWlQaWZsbnUyRkhWUzdIWXROSmF2anNCZ2hZUm1qZTEyZ1RQZk40?= =?utf-8?B?bzgxNjM5SllqQ0JHc1pyQ28vaDQxRTcrTkZzZjNMVnExLzdTaFB2MGwwSTh2?= =?utf-8?B?NEVOTnQvZFRQRDhiTmJJU0dRSzQzMW1TajJRaU8vSUVaTTlaK1RDaEdoQ012?= =?utf-8?B?ejdlbmkrdEs3R08wYVo3bGNjcDVveERKOVVNKzZVQTlPR0ZrUlZOR2xLVGY0?= =?utf-8?B?OXhIK0UrYm1MUW0wcndGb25raVRqdTRLb28yeTZRalJDMjFWU3hLVmwyUnlP?= =?utf-8?B?a1p6SGg3V1VHUjVrL01nUE1GVGxIaHhhUXhuNURaUEJOM0wzcTRnUmxXazRU?= =?utf-8?B?Y0QySzgwTlM3amR2WlBKQnc0V3Vvcm5IdGI2bnkxcXl5MkErRm5HRmpJMFh4?= =?utf-8?B?Vy9sOHl0eWhQbjBKUWl4WTJ2OWNUQ1pNZVZHbDg4cXo5SlhaMWhCTldaOVZr?= =?utf-8?B?MCtJenJoTnJrbFFJSEZ0MUlsZ1JuY1dvOU95bU5OdWpkYUlvR29icnZmU243?= =?utf-8?B?MnpnSXM0ZS9xejBFK25LS3hacVpEZzR4V01ZSCt1eVM2WXplQXFqejl0WEkz?= =?utf-8?B?LzdnK0xHUmlYWVgzUWN0dmhsc3JVOTVvdUwrbnFMU1F4NW44M3BuRUd0ZXRY?= =?utf-8?B?VmZDdWQ2UXZnMmZQVGJ5S3hzWW0zcy83TVYrekNTanVJanZ2b1M1R0tDY01Z?= =?utf-8?B?RW1nOWtqY00rUHFlT1YzSHBXNDJneEt6dC9Ea2N2ZDN1MWs1ekdyYXlFQmVK?= =?utf-8?B?Y2lQM1MyMUc0Rm9jTnVnZXk3dGI2a3RXUnNzMWFyY3FXNGEvUm1JVk5xdFVB?= =?utf-8?B?ZXN6bEsyNW1DVnNtU0JLWmx1QUlaZm5aVFlTVVFISlNINndPdkRsNGhpVDdp?= =?utf-8?B?b2wyWWoyWFFMZktsZG1SbzNQbkJ5dVZOVGtJUHV1SzM5VFB3cFh1T3p0Z29u?= =?utf-8?B?eHUxS1daeGE2bjFXRG5vTVgzbXpjNGpJVXl1OE43d2N5OURyTzlJR1RLV3BZ?= =?utf-8?B?L0FsSUdBekJTaFZLTS9tUlZqY0lhTDJBbnFWVXd5MDNoLzhhWnE3YkNhblE2?= =?utf-8?B?VTkyRndsM0RyTUhjT1RRZVFLanJpalJtWDhNb1czWkhhWTdWWjNnMmRYYUpi?= =?utf-8?B?eVlTb3k5ZC96R2twUytnS0hHMmUzMng5R2kzbjNUcVd1UEpaUVJDTVV3MnV6?= =?utf-8?B?TTNYdkRMZXJpNkpJSFhjOFBOMlZwZ2hHNGE3bnIrWnY1WXljaTlpY2dna3Bu?= =?utf-8?B?Rm9Ca0JrSmJiL1ptenM4QnJsTDJOSGNYSE5pUDJabGVlUVFpbExBQzVQR3ho?= =?utf-8?B?N3JiK011NlF4eWRpWUNUZzJDWGRQRVJzd3pvRmlzcDcwYSsvMkRpMFplZTgx?= =?utf-8?Q?rfPv8WrR/obAr?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 024fbe33-9f92-4aa8-4af1-08d8f9466a65 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2021 21:53:30.3054 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 2bpwKljVTdq/7G+KaIiLxMflR7vCD/GO6ta9RRk14F90LRHdPwoRzFRLUUgFPxXI X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB8PR02MB5754 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:53:37 -0000 --4yfdvkfp3zEQJshrvnldyybuvYUjOtAAQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="FSOB3y1M20plKrsufJPoUfhu6CJTAqXNw"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <90645d97-41ef-d09d-aa38-e15a8dddb293@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: --FSOB3y1M20plKrsufJPoUfhu6CJTAqXNw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B5135D56AF5FF2C4457FD6D6" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B5135D56AF5FF2C4457FD6D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the avoidance of doubt, I also think this split of lists is not a good plan. 3 of the 4 would be hugely overlapping and we already have manycouches and admin-discuss for the 4th. But my main reason is that proposals like this head us towards more fragmentation at what I think is a moment when we all and the IESG/IAB ought be prioritising more cohesion, as we haven't met f2f for so long and might not for a while yet. So count me as also thinking this an awful idea, at present. (Something along those lines might make sense in more normal times, with a lot more discussion and thought put in first.) Cheers, S. On 06/04/2021 12:12, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > Hi Rob, >=20 > Looking at (and directly quoting from) RFC 3005, I think that it makes = sense to split ietf@ into separate focussed lists. >=20 > We already have: > =E2=80=9Clast-call@=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9CLast Call discussions of prop= osed protocol actions=E2=80=9D > =E2=80=9Cietf-announce=E2=80=9D, for =E2=80=9CAnnouncements of conferen= ces, events, or activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet= Society or IETF.=E2=80=9D >=20 > In addition to this, I think that we could/should have four more aliase= s: >=20 > 1. =E2=80=9Cietf-technical@=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9CIt furthers the d= evelopment and specification of Internet technology through discussion of= technical issues.=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CDiscussion of technical issues t= hat are candidates for IETF work, > but do not yet have an appropriate e-mail venue=E2=80=9D >=20 > 1. =E2=80=9Cietf-meetings@=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9CQuestions and clar= ifications concerning IETF meetings=E2=80=9D. It probably should automat= ically receive emails from the meeting specific lists > 2. =E2=80=9Cietf-policy@=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9CIt also hosts discus= sions of IETF direction, policy, and procedures. =E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CD= iscussion of IETF administrative policies=E2=80=9D > 3. =E2=80=9Cietf-discuss@=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9CGeneral discussion = related to the IETF, considerable latitude is allowed=E2=80=9D >=20 > This could mean that =E2=80=9Cietf@=E2=80=9D should not exist, or perha= ps it could be a non-postable alias for a subset of the lists above, e.g.= , perhaps ietf-announce + last-call + ietf-technical + ietf-meetings. >=20 > This might allow the IETF community to better tune into which lists/top= ics they would like to subscribe to. I.e., if somebody is only intereste= d in IETF because they want to progress technical standards then they can= hopefully avoid some of the verbose non-technical threads whilst still b= e able to participate in constructive cross area technical discussions. >=20 > Regards, > Rob >=20 >=20 > From: Gendispatch On Behalf Of Rob Sayre= > Sent: 03 April 2021 03:21 > To: gendispatch@ietf.org > Subject: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I've been thinking about writing an I-D proposing to shut down ietf@iet= f.org. >=20 > At this point, there are many other lists to discuss general IETF issue= s (last-call@, arch@, gendispatch@, etc). So, the original catch-all purp= ose of the IETF list is well-handled in many, if not all, cases. >=20 > What's left on the general IETF list seems to consist of general societ= al or language issues that the IETF is not well-suited to address. Additi= onally, some participants seem to be taking advantage of its large audien= ce and the list's IETF affiliation. Many of the posts seem better suited = to blog posts, email newsletters, forum posts, other venues where the rea= ders have opted in to such content. >=20 > I don't want to spend time on this document if I'm going to get flamed = into outer space without getting it published, but I think it's time. >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 >=20 --------------B5135D56AF5FF2C4457FD6D6 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------B5135D56AF5FF2C4457FD6D6-- --FSOB3y1M20plKrsufJPoUfhu6CJTAqXNw-- --4yfdvkfp3zEQJshrvnldyybuvYUjOtAAQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmBs2FcFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+rz uQ/8CnAvM/dVgH8EAxXhuZC/vfLFr4OiIfj7W6aKvN7ctNFBrkYaGHIrSn94xoyHcQbPYSuF3/Ss UcZKKHjkcbQseN6MJTWo8gpwo2fGsw8u1ZvXDVjTk2+fzKJNKYF3/MwlEY5RvoKJ+0oDXgHz+9q+ st4s9PX8X0PqwvS/1wyJKEjy0nW/ek0K/Kk9gVrS5JLjDMWBdJooNO+BjA0pEWIreSEbiYgTO5x/ iPkfLhOhcmEJ1F3A/0+xTmM5FRS+JjTkybxwbj/rrKE4iaFSUQSpxkEKa2OhRu/0BrqgjS1qqWMa yINZqtxTHJES9+X2whdzQ8b2T4Adfgs+KBU3dlGpuyvDj444oh77jG2/O/iz8WWFQgqQ5PexgZvm uRZHfZ2QjnhAdu7Y/+i6rdjIbxC8Wze25cw4VamDLTq35eY9ls85n+iGf8cbxnyJaGQ8TWsyPQeJ lmRTRiWtrZ5idH9EknZ+wYrKnuLBXmJQJKKeAEMdhc8USgajh5A1IoN57ATJ4VDiIFQi9vsjRqPi 8wuBpg5QY07kAOlg++bmLHPzt0h9ZLyxDcMwcEWroG1VYLmVFsjUbPJfZWIBl8CJEiAqDHfNCUpK 9oQQ2AtbVam0KMUNKFfSkkl8N2vU+YGbaGgFNH9FDohL7GXpeKB30LxUToGyiyb6uAShn/HoNGTF lro= =1Aw6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4yfdvkfp3zEQJshrvnldyybuvYUjOtAAQ-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 14:55:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2363A3268 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:55:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8V7tnN8i3PCm for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A71D3A3267 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 14:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAAD01338 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:55:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 17:55:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=bgXhDraPh472U1C9PSosrDrBttcbwtfMWfoHqnC/K WU=; b=UOnSlfPiiNXwFbpf/S7IVW6M92uoWHHRNiaiTXjGuvTqRvWvK+3kxfjch YTQC24tueyO+0wpETvQBFAPWTzfnJE5J3j3VQfTgUjzyqFSIZnIFGSmC8GXAHpFw sNlhL5PmCFS+RxZQ3HcC9OX1gWsibeHV7mUEppqtPDNTPPacSwFtXABBAfs18lkS niZPUETvXzFZzwO0XEydCekdH0Y7TzxWvO/7yIuPXSRxvi0nQBP0rNZLRg0LtP9m nf4S8TC0WbbFM9vYrEvgoWbmkNWoExS872Sqc8MQLNw6pc8tEynOUaS5sA8itsfS cmX3VCGkOb111mmScGm2Dzoj4qhPA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejiedgtdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekvdeggfelue elkeeuhfffheeghffhkeeuvdduudeihfehudefffdtgfdtkeffgfenucfkphepjeefrddu udefrdduieelrdeiudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedunecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.30.202] (c-73-113-169-61.hsd1.tn.comcast.net [73.113.169.61]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C9336240065 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:55:19 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <5cce598c-737f-b76f-7552-36e058a6b8aa@cs.tcd.ie> <3522983F-5FD1-4589-9330-41974F2BA7AE@akamai.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <17d221c4-168c-7a18-373d-581a3bdc429f@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:55:19 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:55:28 -0000 On 4/6/21 4:57 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > Thanks for the unsolicited consensus call. :) properly understood, rough consensus is a distributed algorithm. IMO. Keith From nobody Tue Apr 6 15:13:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32853A3316 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VWM7oWpZX5RU for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F05CC3A3314 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id n38so1789162pfv.2 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:13:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=M60/vgOB1B1tRUjL87ouv5Bv9H/3sCdqPG6qRHD0k0Y=; b=Z/d0DjyIiA33HxxOhKJU6l2kZVM9Md72+g0vn4ZyvDlkurfR0DvelICGMWhaBgSenF oSr6NtBsCMRCSxHOEli02e/u3txpQRH2s1/VHQvidrw26+TCJaIj1Il/NCw+1gHQPihy GD0WnnYbHLim7zW5G801eyg3AdS0+0ZXNJTCrjEwGmEaHFBHhw+pBFDzR6wBEquwbXEN HbfKYFmzy5IzgtMP3lfDhdftl0Gs/Eq7Mvqu4UH+hAZqByD1GVTjGBdOlGEwKInuNK8K SotzeHUKR5XYUk/4twokGVF1S7W54tk8tVRHSN9WtTEymey0HOFjcqFEFeuxmuXl9Tbt n2Ig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=M60/vgOB1B1tRUjL87ouv5Bv9H/3sCdqPG6qRHD0k0Y=; b=dSaZO9YK6hhMZc+gO25Y11yiAc5oOD0OaZs6cw5CT7t7OAhdVNJwyo4mWNdHM78dr0 /L8INfcB7VTs92zDaTvPFq0DJ3qUHnIdGonaxgsZJaYCuH8qD3FSOw79wnU3PjE+ewsB SsRQgOq61fR9U7JMdVal07QXnS2eeCmiMLda704ktBk8EK8Yoxdk0rSsa40V9OTe9IkH xx4CKsyQmFvuH8aYW/fWRlQmsVzQE7tJfY6XXV+essvKRC8YWfliQBFFI57NlpktOVxJ qpe+MdFosfaVyi0AD4hFh59+0338KrhSvNw3lrCAVxFmx6E2FgyMATx5CDS5f3ZV8BC5 iwJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530pEpuGNobJ3VkbdyQ4dN2JVrGIOG+aSDA2N7yBOLb64qhgBj3Z e6QGpVKIaqA3EL/zjXLCsxEMXpRGvxEIPw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzyi8NqyqNqN8B2MYKk/ELUTuWYW4G+H+3epHLF2agKCBEyacXYCQuFfwOpWZdQwqizdD8Dng== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:1595:b029:217:49e9:2429 with SMTP id u21-20020a056a001595b029021749e92429mr334395pfk.80.1617747217371; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y194sm19336197pfb.21.2021.04.06.15.13.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:13:36 -0700 (PDT) To: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:13:31 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 22:13:43 -0000 On 07-Apr-21 08:45, Salz, Rich wrote: > =C2=A0 >=20 > * ietf@ietf.org :=C2=A0 >=20 > * =C2=A0- =E2=80=9CDiscussion of technical issues that are candidates= for IETF work, but do not yet have an appropriate e-mail venue=E2=80=9D >=20 > * - =E2=80=9CQuestions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings=E2= =80=9D >=20 > * - =E2=80=9CDiscussion of IETF administrative policies=E2=80=9D As Jay noted, we already have a separate list for that. On the other hand= , we clearly needs a venue for * - Discussion of IETF process issues * - Discussion of IETF participation issues If we don't have those as legitimate issues for a general list, they will= end up in odd places like gendispatch, which is supposed to be for preliminar= y discussion of actual proposals, not a standing BOF. So there you have it: ietf@ietf.org is a permanent BOF, and that needs ac= tive chairing. It's not getting it. The IETF Chair is too busy, and the S= AAs are more like traffic cops than discussion chairs. I think that's the= bug in the system (and has been for many years). > * This proposal would make the general IETF list much more tightly mo= derated. I'd like to say: actively chaired, rather than managed by retroactive bla= me. Regards Brian >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Should we take steps to encourage more women and under-represented grou= ps of people into leadership? Where and how do we discuss that question?=C2= =A0 And then, if the consensus is yes, where and how do we discuss mechan= isms to do so?=C2=A0 How do we discuss whether or not to hold an online m= eeting or a F2F one, and how do we keep the conversation from getting int= o the =E2=80=9CUS dominates=E2=80=9D discussion? Is this list moderated? = Who appoints the moderators? Where can we complain about the job the mode= rators are doing? Will we be allowed to speculate on the vaccine distribu= tion when decided if November is F2F? Can we be constrained to do that wi= thout comparing societies? >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > * I don't think the IETF should host "ietf-discuss@ietf.org " at all, but it seems I'm in the rough there.=20 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > From what I have seen, your proposal is in the rough.=C2=A0 I just look= ed at the 44 messages in this thread; there were under a dozen people, an= d nobody supported you. =C2=A0(Maybe, if you squint, you could claim Step= hen does.) =C2=A0I assume you have private email that was in favor. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Apr 6 15:15:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BD63A331D for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:15:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lrJlZYZxvq04 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A762C3A3326 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id z136so8527945iof.10 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:15:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VjsuzcqWFKwgwZAiGd1fDvXH9rNsIkDsQgpr47LYxWE=; b=HJeMk0gmTo4xE3+Tm9k5cRr75deAU++DmLgNe6n7EET7JepNp8LgE5eo+uw1BLIsKZ JJHthBuiAiB83fPebdSeyg8uKg6jT6dj8C750uYF4KrHe34+NPzXdbb8qCqgh1s58Pfr xfQWhJT35cGu+rmVbC6xs1lCCx2UyiViW1qIgYQ24MrG5kSKjZX3yUQoPxFbAiiLVSsj n6bwY5ic0GsE2x4IbJJ48wxdRnq0ZKEK1wWkIzDshfV/M3D2nYL1vHMQ6gf9DCkR1xys 8vCV3a7UcFFex1t+p+WMejC/wx8rzCvOYxTD5HqXjQ4POGR4A4HV4MvwiQCvM6kWEAqu zdFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VjsuzcqWFKwgwZAiGd1fDvXH9rNsIkDsQgpr47LYxWE=; b=lbYrZlTgfMEkGkbMYIebBHnDuRJK+scRVf09gQ3wHQUFtarKHpUT/xAmKXFbXFWOlN gCdPrdHTy3Af7A1TzwQnZJCr19oIp352LamYFFjuZnCfowZ+Jp0eal+f5qXw8VDI+vfN Si8crbbQxpNGa0MUrNI1Y9q437rQW5XCMVtB8W5KVciXsPcPLbdfs3zC3/2LxQWAqGaT VG7VWEwcQ94bCperM9ZhlP3df/YpFSdhZ23lV5DLz0ONWDcu8HhNSmVJ6t/lZTNG5Q9f Mbe3u0atQMs/+jmp7V1cK4XWbZzF5/EvoAOCUNhz8kS0/MdqkMnObpUXL0xyUobu82nV S8UA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530nC4ZGAvqRHgXrLJ5qR8+0eyuju9NbB6uQlquQSkGJpxqtFbi2 2qZOTEBD9uTSlwGNddtSX0FaIc7xkkhxHP2F9fpfdseqWz4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzka1VaU8fsLVkNgo8ujygVQ/Lnp9Dg7hRViYV1xGcavvUJP/OOLutmkTc0hsBvKohO496pCbcgbfYPV5H9lr4= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:89d9:: with SMTP id a25mr61727iot.69.1617747327756; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:15:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <90645d97-41ef-d09d-aa38-e15a8dddb293@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <90645d97-41ef-d09d-aa38-e15a8dddb293@cs.tcd.ie> From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:15:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ceabc305bf5526b3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 22:15:35 -0000 --000000000000ceabc305bf5526b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:53 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > So count me as also thinking this an awful idea, at present. > (Something along those lines might make sense in more normal > times, with a lot more discussion and thought put in first.) > The opposing argument is that the ietf@ietf.org list is such a terrible place that it is not driving cohesion, and is actively harmful. I don't mind the other proposals on the list (like Eliot's), but I can't believe anyone thinks the past few months of ietf@ are worth fighting for. Maybe it's just the name that is misleading, since last-call@, i-d-announce@, ietf-announce@, admin-discuss@ and other lists are more substantive. Perhaps it should be renamed to considerable-latitude@ietf.org or something like that. I'm sure there would be a bunch of administrative RFCs to update. thanks, Rob --000000000000ceabc305bf5526b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:53 PM Stephen Fa= rrell <stephen.farrell@cs.t= cd.ie> wrote:

So count me as also thinking this an awful idea, at present.
(Something along those lines might make sense in more normal
times, with a lot more discussion and thought put in first.)

The opposing argument is that the ietf@ietf.org list is such a terrible place that it is no= t driving cohesion, and is actively harmful.

I don= 't mind the other proposals on the list (like Eliot's), but I can&#= 39;t believe anyone thinks the past few months of ietf@ are worth fighting = for.

Maybe it's just the name that is misleadi= ng, since last-call@, i-d-announce@, ietf-announce@, admin-discuss@ and oth= er lists are more substantive. Perhaps it should be renamed to considerable-latitude@ietf.org or= something like that. I'm sure there would be a bunch of administrative= =C2=A0RFCs to update.

thanks,
Rob
<= div>

=C2=A0
--000000000000ceabc305bf5526b3-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 15:18:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE6F3A3337 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:18:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tcdud.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id efClcWdCXtdZ for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr10094.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.1.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C93CB3A3339 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:18:29 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=KSg7pTLzAjlqYdTp4umkN9twSagh4Ghm8YhFtGTwZFjpoVzjRYZ2cVpvHev20D3/9ajRiqvzjRTyZQG4OYZ953qGYg7XhQv32r6BTAVyub80RFNpX9CqnzNrrZ8r0Y7gWVN75c/32ScVDUlkFFTVChBvrkJzF93A/5UJDYWJuHlx18pIvYpNn4ZC9yfJOqndZqqPO0mKPUTGJYx4IOt4szYBQy2I0kbG9dBcr+cRu+LSbxHwd0nEP1K6cV1MSaeIJNW7pW9MHmTKEtUlnCo+z004drck/93HpmdOM94hPrppX+cBbOKDv9NgSTzMxJ115d4PH5NnAmmtXVj7wXHYxA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=zHmbc1v6OGgqiM2ajkBZe05A+hpH/tjOz6lBR1skHgQ=; b=L95bLdv9GP+Mh+WZOINgIW5q5iHNecBlklY3UK3RdMXsdVUTtneMIJjfjyZWnP+izXlZPh8qh+MXQqVrvIEfKoOkE459PF8jClyO3WyAEcrLjrjPNeG0kYIHYpFEXYPMeyQdV7RpL/bGXxpg4KMD4HjEmcfcn4SmhTdRLtWTUTPNf8eqp/OzYPaZ3yMjMPsI/19YSVrxmbZCqqB8FSzI2EGHjYOHmBOgedQrA2gpRLU2opsAjW0360mUcflAXVal2UOce0KtZqHewmubxeILlbpuA4hKs3Eg/WBUsemoXi2XoKanGpPqdNCc2F+CeycIWAKRCHMXKQ6goecmBEHPmw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=TCDUD.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-TCDUD-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=zHmbc1v6OGgqiM2ajkBZe05A+hpH/tjOz6lBR1skHgQ=; b=d1rwLLZKoZGgdO8N+dXwS+3/z/y9Cz2p+wuZvazWrond/pGO6NVJqVzIdUkc3IMFIJiE8LIyhQ/biEgdBSf5OPcw4cz+WDtmtrfiFVbblEtIsvkSwQIZPRuveUrywIRpLyh/MKkRuHT9xdHV77cFdbq3o97jNXlWBhu7cwx7SRQ= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB3PR0202MB3449.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:8:d::29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.29; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:18:24 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:18:24 +0000 To: Rob Sayre Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <90645d97-41ef-d09d-aa38-e15a8dddb293@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <39f3d687-ea21-29bb-20a9-5b64bd279397@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 23:18:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="MIzeKiZ61H8tmcjvpyAR2MCUnWHCwZk7D" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR07CA0118.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2c::32) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044) by DB6PR07CA0118.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2c::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4020.8 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:18:23 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 0c9ebedf-9b19-465c-55ad-08d8f949e4c9 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB3PR0202MB3449: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:469; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(346002)(366004)(396003)(39860400002)(136003)(6916009)(36756003)(478600001)(4326008)(31696002)(38100700001)(44832011)(186003)(21480400003)(316002)(2906002)(235185007)(2616005)(53546011)(31686004)(786003)(33964004)(86362001)(66556008)(66476007)(52116002)(66946007)(8936002)(54906003)(8676002)(16526019)(5660300002)(45080400002)(83380400001)(66616009)(6486002)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?djM1VzhFQmFhQlI0UjRZS3lYS2JIODNVdUZwOHg3M0pXaStaRDAvblJsKys4?= =?utf-8?B?TDZTY2d3YkdEN1Q1OCtmTHR2RnF6a08zcFRRQWs4NjJ2b0RIcm9nOVBmSmhU?= =?utf-8?B?eStYT0Y0eFpBRGNvYnZneFdNZElsdlI3TmdBTitLOTNOcG1md1kycTFoalBx?= =?utf-8?B?M0k5d2RWS0hhU3FEcG1OUk5VdVdra1htdEM1VHVoUFpwL3FPMDBla2Z4LzBx?= =?utf-8?B?RFJnZWVCUVhFSlBrMjR5RURZajdlWXkyWjFRdlFoR1ZKS1lQN3h0dUdPVCtI?= =?utf-8?B?c01wQTVGMzZBNXdzbm01cDdKZDFNZWFWbzZHbVZkZHlFeXZPT1dRYUEraUty?= =?utf-8?B?SitSZXVqZ1pKYnJENWQ1aUhmcXRXdFg2QjFRM3dlVGNRek9BakhQRSs2U0Uw?= =?utf-8?B?b1BxeGxHZkNPeVNFdU9kYjBCeHBYNHZaMm10VkJyRncwck5WM3htaHloeU94?= =?utf-8?B?dmRuTlk2c2JxdXpkTG1KSDc4NFNIN29TaHJXU0xoUXVSVmhNaC8ydkRkMGQ2?= =?utf-8?B?Z0hNeGorODJOZDh1MTdkSkFjV1hNZkRmVjBQcjdWeFpPQmhwM2dXWGpISXBy?= =?utf-8?B?WFo0REcvcDNZL1YvRWI2KzkvME12d2RuRDg0bjc3eXlUVy9JYnUxanVjTzQy?= =?utf-8?B?RHhlS2tRK1F6eXV6K0c3WUQ2QWJ1MW82aXZpMzB6a0Vra1lIUDZ2SHBkWXJn?= =?utf-8?B?M3pWdlRyeXZhc01wZzMyaXNnZGU2NXcvZ3FxWk1VdjZSTVhvVDJONW9yV1JE?= =?utf-8?B?YzlCc3NlOS91b3BqY295MlZHazVta1RGanNobmVpcHhqdzYyR1MrOVRvdEJP?= =?utf-8?B?eTUxSXVKUjh2ZDY2ekFBYnY5Q3FjUGZ4QTJlZitzR3JrZ0pkKzgwVEpmb3VI?= =?utf-8?B?anczNEtyNS9Hdk9saFM2MW9Pc0doZzd5bmp2QmpxRHg4Sk5GcUw2eTNka3FG?= =?utf-8?B?UVhmWmRKT20rYkFUR0Nqd242NVVKbnQxaU5zTHorZ1p5MmdkUEp4T0lCd2pT?= =?utf-8?B?THdBWksvV3Rxb1dZM0tZeXJVRmlTdmFJdWR3ZEs4UHFuVEVWYWRWZVR5Yk9Q?= =?utf-8?B?eFo4UkVFNVFGUEVMdHhwVlJjVWpGakd1KzFZR1ZsVVdCS2xuMHdaV3pMSGJr?= =?utf-8?B?ZnFjblN1Nm0rSDNqdFMxdXFhdkFqSWhKR1FsUjdTWDBzQTJvRnR4UGU2SHp3?= =?utf-8?B?b0kvVFJGNFA3YkpuQlhMMGlTZGxFOU1RaDI0VkJEOTF5MzVBQ2ZJeWJ6YlMv?= =?utf-8?B?QSt5Mkx2K3Z1R2ZNejRaOVVjZHRDWDJjWHBlOUdOUlNhNlQ2VEJ5LzM1dWVk?= =?utf-8?B?TUZ1VGJJaDJzSzMrcU94RmJ6YmUxTmVSS0VGa2pyR3VYU01ob0FzU3k4ZHZW?= =?utf-8?B?ZHpOVDY3U1RaYm9pMXZubm9HV0h1VWgrd2h1SWY4N1RYaU1XR0JzRGxNSGJl?= =?utf-8?B?LzhPUTdSVFBvT1djbVdFYWpnNDF3VzNkNlh5cUovUWZMMW9idURrcGY1dElm?= =?utf-8?B?cWltWUdWTE9Xb0dRcithYXRydy83eFVHa0lqcVdEOVdzU2d3T0NYZjhRVW5W?= =?utf-8?B?bm04M1RNOEdOUmZoN0Z4eVRBZUtVelRVY3ZvNzhNd3dmZVE0OWFxMm01Ulpj?= =?utf-8?B?UWM4ZGwwcEZZWS9jNkxwK2FzaWZVdWM3Vk1zUnUwVlFXczBxdG9aSlBZQnlU?= =?utf-8?B?d0daWFpsY3h4aVc0VllLM0tBMkhmZG9vN0RydG5XNVVzcjh1cXJuZllLWDNT?= =?utf-8?B?Mnd0Yk9FQlhUbEIvbGYzeGdBTjNaS0tZSFQvY2M4b0QyOWwxTVVrZ1pYZGhk?= =?utf-8?B?QkNjT1NubkZrclQvdW5iZjJBSWE3L3MrMEFzWUFUZ2k1anpEbnpPaGNEeVh3?= =?utf-8?Q?inwWVxNQIbtR4?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0c9ebedf-9b19-465c-55ad-08d8f949e4c9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2021 22:18:24.3841 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: tMeCbTMYoD9xpYy52itVrv1HZ++KNxOXN3VXEq3KyMbVVJLGRB12IAd1Hioi3nwl X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3PR0202MB3449 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 22:18:35 -0000 --MIzeKiZ61H8tmcjvpyAR2MCUnWHCwZk7D Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="mwmZrZwr2aevFUwvrkR29a8uOIQVNoWPF"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Rob Sayre Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <39f3d687-ea21-29bb-20a9-5b64bd279397@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org References: <90645d97-41ef-d09d-aa38-e15a8dddb293@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --mwmZrZwr2aevFUwvrkR29a8uOIQVNoWPF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0841F418BBEDFEE6945E2D31" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0841F418BBEDFEE6945E2D31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/04/2021 23:15, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:53 PM Stephen Farrell > wrote: >=20 >> >> So count me as also thinking this an awful idea, at present. >> (Something along those lines might make sense in more normal >> times, with a lot more discussion and thought put in first.) >> >=20 > The opposing argument is that the ietf@ietf.org list is such a terrible= > place that it is not driving cohesion, and is actively harmful. I've already stated my opinion of the list and made clear that I do not agree with those who assert that the list is "toxic" or a "terrible place." It's fine that you don't agree with me but please don't assume that your description is correct or complete. S. >=20 > I don't mind the other proposals on the list (like Eliot's), but I can'= t > believe anyone thinks the past few months of ietf@ are worth fighting f= or. >=20 > Maybe it's just the name that is misleading, since last-call@, i-d-anno= unce@, > ietf-announce@, admin-discuss@ and other lists are more substantive. > Perhaps it should be renamed to considerable-latitude@ietf.org or somet= hing > like that. I'm sure there would be a bunch of administrative RFCs to up= date. >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 --------------0841F418BBEDFEE6945E2D31 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------0841F418BBEDFEE6945E2D31-- --mwmZrZwr2aevFUwvrkR29a8uOIQVNoWPF-- --MIzeKiZ61H8tmcjvpyAR2MCUnWHCwZk7D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmBs3i0FAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qz lw/8CC3BnxhLMv1QqvbxI4gmLooeB6sMy2oxmgVyN3+tXonm/Eo/Q58Rn1gU4BxtUA6298MUKvFm JgABtZ/D4ohywWY4W+M+W4gIxy5C5SqkNd6RTSf36Aoen0y0gvv14ce+lwJEZCTTfeTxahIJi1Oc jqzlDvfLYQ9CikP5hL3WZcD3Z1kH3X40TnXzQkw5D3ZReHEBTMx1OrEXSGahaZHoTWOEdYAJx3TX kiNDo9yAOPka9t5vT9E/dDRxFgRKnckxs1UMQDfAnHoMU9ubI6v4jbr0IFdSh53TcB9qCQYde1nO Rk6VNFe0WZZtIqdhJcePWZ8kYcr5g2h9HoqDU7dbUrruxwnHgsxG18EuFDhPl9RIttpFjCdhGjlw uZ8kX1Inyk3oRTZuoxxTZy1UQ6kVDFJ7h+VrFIqvLHMUw1KlU6MIuviDnsVSjzXaFHF6IxSU6/1K A78Sjkp/6miIDotiflQxO5kOa6VcqNCGIxGIVTd2DDrfrZzywYaYpAahvc70diEyenBC1MuMlp4e pOivx+zmaOts2LJluRH8AlqfjtEQKs9mL8p2kpyEZ1By4fHsaK/HINmeq1vL+TmYWPiRNy9hLmu9 lancAE5oR7wA/mA9xJu5UIixCSbxzQCjBiJVy3PAdCKYCUHiTz1ZUAhQ954E6jwG882GUblRdAuS pzo= =CwPX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --MIzeKiZ61H8tmcjvpyAR2MCUnWHCwZk7D-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 15:19:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AE13A3346 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:19:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bU96nSAMg4oq for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4740D3A3336 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id p8so10170852ilm.13 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:19:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=P6QqiqfN6jJtVZ1toRZ9d7r0hYIKoB44dOqgd3AjlYU=; b=gvkefPWhZHiEGIQ/tL7YYOYL6vfF6IqwK3gohDLd+7JONUJgGAKOrtzMHNSNS/JPL1 Tbs6+AqZeDGuO5cAdNelFrEkjTikg3S2Gck7q4AMfQqk2EoNv6/o9NpU3i+5L3b0Ld7N R2bOrM6H/9BYnYLd7igdiNOANuPJdQOK4sxDwGkM36OM8sxfWBwQh+pUGV0iZm1KHVwi aPh8AiCT2vFQO441e4TxcDPWmECGVARe9rKo/1azu//StbztjJc5ucxcXxZn3vQ4aqgt DT2rUMbb4RFQvvgj+mHZtYWOcnDffnF1og+n117WkHR8CmE8HqoYeyNrVQ/tb4m1GMXA d9Uw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=P6QqiqfN6jJtVZ1toRZ9d7r0hYIKoB44dOqgd3AjlYU=; b=cYzAw2mM33JgINJCvMLStTYw8hXItPXRmyq7pBcbmhiQgE2bHWBsa4DT2T7/mezOtC VvmxUUH0gEjOD0L2OxEneRYue85ysHXtvp/X4+gqV8+Twh7Zr6F6D6eAPBBfYjirxicn BiarnMFV2HKOWWwlmjUIi8A6Qd8VJFOO6MMWdtVA9XDp6qP6xPBNzLcBji0GC6f7vlhT S5dkCgVq4Nd9/Rsht+4SPvZ/x/ST7Wgkk8WvOJqjXQekVo2tx4d2PUQMQPHJqaX08WtL 69sKinxJlUV8cGomBX8Jro3Kzf2G4NXiWfty93flctadOx/ZNw3m5TqpeAl0Tnnkq7n9 HUIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532aWfhVsQyKvXYVbGRD6d1wFoeZ9N3K1J31OmPVyvjJx7erGJxB vcNePwLX2W0ptimz5BVoF0EcwEEVYQCeeAx1qhqtmw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw3/+01t38sOku9GQgG/3Gbl+H1scO4lGAiC761fKTuy9WNbnAb9fdeQZHcslbysWd1pd9kzJ+ks6O01wFIDwo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1a24:: with SMTP id g4mr364275ile.56.1617747586793; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:19:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:19:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003f5cb005bf553659" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 22:19:53 -0000 --0000000000003f5cb005bf553659 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:13 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > * This proposal would make the general IETF list much more tightly > moderated. > > I'd like to say: actively chaired, rather than managed by retroactive > blame. > I want to second this comment from Brian. I think that that would go a long way. -Ekr Regards > Brian > > > > > > > > Should we take steps to encourage more women and under-represented > groups of people into leadership? Where and how do we discuss that > question? And then, if the consensus is yes, where and how do we discuss > mechanisms to do so? How do we discuss whether or not to hold an online > meeting or a F2F one, and how do we keep the conversation from getting in= to > the =E2=80=9CUS dominates=E2=80=9D discussion? Is this list moderated? Wh= o appoints the > moderators? Where can we complain about the job the moderators are doing? > Will we be allowed to speculate on the vaccine distribution when decided = if > November is F2F? Can we be constrained to do that without comparing > societies? > > > > > > > > * I don't think the IETF should host "ietf-discuss@ietf.org ietf-discuss@ietf.org>" at all, but it seems I'm in the rough there. > > > > > > > > From what I have seen, your proposal is in the rough. I just looked at > the 44 messages in this thread; there were under a dozen people, and nobo= dy > supported you. (Maybe, if you squint, you could claim Stephen does.) I > assume you have private email that was in favor. > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --0000000000003f5cb005bf553659 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:13 PM Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* This proposal would make the general IETF= list much more tightly moderated.

I'd like to say: actively chaired, rather than managed by retroactive b= lame.

I want to second this comment fro= m Brian. I think that that would go a long way.

-Ekr

ietf-discuss@ietf.org &= lt;mailto:ietf-d= iscuss@ietf.org>" at all, but it seems I'm in the rough the= re.
>
> =C2=A0
>
> From what I have seen, your proposal is in the rough.=C2=A0 I just loo= ked at the 44 messages in this thread; there were under a dozen people, and= nobody supported you. =C2=A0(Maybe, if you squint, you could claim Stephen= does.) =C2=A0I assume you have private email that was in favor.
>
> =C2=A0
>
>

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--0000000000003f5cb005bf553659-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 15:22:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889F13A335D for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:22:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tcdud.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hCowWElY7Noc for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr50103.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.5.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F9173A335C for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:22:18 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=dzsSu/IBy0ev+RrpEu6g5r8ELEHTtujlyGD8ZxGFYwS0q1T+mP2z/o3e0EOgWsksbOrGHIJC8hk6p1yHsmy8g+4rF5fWnc701ouwcZyFXdhxSiJ5O3HZyW09vU3tjnEZBEfYy0dOZ96BAqNPD6CzIMLHa8uVK22WF9oEq8lzBkrA9V5Ddzu4MjUzCon9wjRNbKAJuKzsbY90QwIM9BiDlIe4Dn7ElaF6+5TlVJrUFQWKK1AQJoXgKqDZo1iCcWnTMNPder1r/sGxRZYBfzwFTNpcRPIVz1VRi3OmR3RwbwD8BBgHw1BE6FCuAG+2HcAyqYu2pLWRYM/HHWDpumBwZA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1mu5345XvO76Twb7YgeNySHyzLUsLr/v2pkpUMMlZDU=; b=RBv5sNFFwAz8i2LjLH7yKAmYV0Pw68oJFjEQ34HcdzUa3K40nwNZ6tguioxICvSYK30Zgi6Av+JJS/1QPsjlP12UZ7/9VlTGiLGwokXkA5Sv1KeffXE96243vU79JTMwUuUHAiqLgJ0mQMRFwqmmnCnQ+UPBbNn6m2rPf2v2RlzaeFDJDnz5Ant+OTRRAbfVQg5FOnGMamNkE3lRUc7wMEc05FVsYr/zP69mrK5mNRz6C7NJgAoUUSTeloiJeJuLv/hslGbQwe+QrjqfiNUA48ehO6Sd4SYR74nT0pOnY9bDOrurflWxyDed1eFnpeBL0VytuHl818P6Kx0eLHzp0g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=TCDUD.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-TCDUD-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1mu5345XvO76Twb7YgeNySHyzLUsLr/v2pkpUMMlZDU=; b=o7vKKyaLuTqeHW34WbZXJA6rC23EduBuu1vzdNZX1osNRATmmdstCuY/UXa+2BmkDlLDmqprNq0m0RocrNOEE/sm5u41zdDIIzIo1sgD9Isq++8laR+aaIBZFfrcllE80jjLQUqPYwrNyq4VaVWYJGpl1JzUwyQsf1TPx91hUIw= Authentication-Results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB7PR02MB3835.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:5:12::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.27; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:22:15 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:22:15 +0000 To: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 23:22:13 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="o2ZOorSdsLPBoNdRIxBhFOtONbzRtEsrV" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB8PR06CA0002.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:100::15) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044) by DB8PR06CA0002.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:100::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4020.16 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:22:15 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: b322c89a-5a20-4c7e-54f5-08d8f94a6ea3 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB7PR02MB3835: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:5797; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(346002)(136003)(396003)(39860400002)(366004)(45080400002)(6486002)(186003)(31686004)(16526019)(53546011)(52116002)(66946007)(86362001)(8936002)(38100700001)(316002)(2906002)(786003)(66556008)(33964004)(83380400001)(44832011)(2616005)(110136005)(36756003)(54906003)(66616009)(66476007)(5660300002)(21480400003)(8676002)(4326008)(31696002)(966005)(235185007)(478600001)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?aXRYTzJhSzBScFV5cHJ4a0hscTlreWNmS0hFeE9WcEVERDk5OEEzUjNWRjlu?= =?utf-8?B?THRHejZMeWF0cXRoMkN1MUNLbUUvY1VTMzNRN24ra3NyNnZ2Y3ZsbW4wMWha?= =?utf-8?B?K3BETnBINzMxdDF3NkduaTA0emNMN05qSEI2WG1ESWlOcDlOVlpkRTh4cGNL?= =?utf-8?B?NGE1clQwUXFTbzVGMStkS0hyUGkxZjAwVTRZU1FEQVdlMmJ2RTFZeWszcG9M?= =?utf-8?B?eVdITENhVGhlVmVEdWs0STZlV3hvdEZ0V3B5bW9RSVBqME9vL3lmUDhMbHU5?= =?utf-8?B?K3FMZGJWM2FURkpXWG83YWhTRWNuVUl2YXZYZ0Q1Slc0RmsvYWliUnI5OG9z?= =?utf-8?B?TFNsVldvN1B3TTYyZ0hDUXo5MG04VlArWHRyMURFZUtLeVRrQ2dsZ0YzU0cr?= =?utf-8?B?M01KVU5EYjJWc2FUSWhORnViQmluR2JROTI5dUpNNzdnNVo1c1VSY0ttMmdF?= =?utf-8?B?dzc1RjF6QzJEWkF2Z0Z1eVBRWEplODZvQm9FdklxTll4a1ZDQ2liSHFLWGRs?= =?utf-8?B?UHVNa0RucmZyU0RJU1lWV09DYlREdXVlZFh1YzBncWpsOWduUFFZUVR3NEd0?= =?utf-8?B?NDl0Zk9CS3VsSFp1NFU0Q2pmUnJCM0x1M3J4ejVwaC84ajhIaFdTSlptaERY?= =?utf-8?B?UjZLZUwyb2QyNHBSMTQwaDZzWGFsK2ZIR2o5K2ptWER3dHpDcmVCZU1VcWx4?= =?utf-8?B?UEtPUmtVMWszc24xR0MrcFljN3pzbU1iOEMwem9DenZkb0ptZUtTVnhvdDJs?= =?utf-8?B?U2g0c2RrTmJxUnNxU3FTZ1Y4dVVDVGlnV3hNak9WQjhnUzB6WVZlZ1JOZW5j?= =?utf-8?B?SENQK2VVUWVRM1MySWRMN054V2hyRU5rSHlGbWFmUkI0bDE5ZUsydWgzM1Rs?= =?utf-8?B?SE1iaVR2WXdtMnM1TlM0TGExTnBHdGFCZURhMU9xOXZYZHVJWHdMcjhCckZ0?= =?utf-8?B?R3c5M1hxTS9RbFZiZk1uZVl4eDZtUzB0V09yTm1QcUJtT0tqL0x3ZHdBQzJn?= =?utf-8?B?K1hSaWNwR0V1SnQzeWhVWGp0clEzaWNkaXNmcHBpNkJad0d6RmdUSm93c0VC?= =?utf-8?B?SzVDRE54MEpud1Q1cnpMUGFQZldFeXBUMVcwb3VqYW1aNjZ1RTc2UjZjL2Zt?= =?utf-8?B?S1AxRGdsbElZT0ljZ2FYTnpjZndmYnZIU0k1bzFFYmh0bFo1YjRFMHFOSXJQ?= =?utf-8?B?TXVreXowMTZLT2pESkxYbU9sYko5dThCWWVSRFNwZDFBZ0NScS9IdEllN0xy?= =?utf-8?B?RUxPZ2hGa2NOSVFEY3Nueko1MkVPbEMzZG1mZmllR0xMRERZUlY4cWMyZmdP?= =?utf-8?B?Wk94bWpRbVh2YzNlSjhEdE9GZ3BGOTVvRzEzdmFoZTUrR05hVnlDZ2cvWUpk?= =?utf-8?B?ZFg3aXV3TkVDNmpPVUt2RTVDSEZ4NWlBTENRWjlybCtQeG9BZTFSa3Z3UDZC?= =?utf-8?B?RzFneEV6QVdQQTFUR3ExNTduN1FtVVU5TXpBY21HSVJ5TUZnenFyN2l4eU8v?= =?utf-8?B?dVVaSHpZaCtPOXFGa0J3dm9Lb2lhMFR3VGRwVkRaVVF2S3Q4ZGVwczlnaE5X?= =?utf-8?B?RXhxRFh5WDZ5ZnU2WUxrRENvSmUyakhpQ3lNNGZqVWhScUMxeFVoU1ljYjJY?= =?utf-8?B?SlA4aWwzRzRTbFVBNFRPa0w3Q0Rub2dmRFY3T244QWlKcEVrUjZaOURtZ0hj?= =?utf-8?B?UHpsaDRGRzRYdlpRcmkvMytyODVaUFhmQlZDbHh0V3ZKWEVFWCtFbWVjOWl6?= =?utf-8?B?KzUvVHRuR0k5U1FxdUZyN01JZm02ajY4Ujh6SGFwbmVIdGMzNXA5YnllUTZ2?= =?utf-8?B?ekVsNWJSdHNGeHFnZVlFTHFnMHE4dzdHcG8zRjhFWmJ3SlhOS1F2ZVZ0c3Ar?= =?utf-8?Q?83klW2Uk3wnc6?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b322c89a-5a20-4c7e-54f5-08d8f94a6ea3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2021 22:22:15.3178 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: cUzx1FKhN/aFTsDWSCnTLJ15eygOfU2pATgBmZJaFJBBQpu4PYJbEfMg1N5hqQnk X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR02MB3835 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 22:22:26 -0000 --o2ZOorSdsLPBoNdRIxBhFOtONbzRtEsrV Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="N75TDq9MwK11ReNJNfOQ8L2quZRmhvMjq"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre Message-ID: <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --N75TDq9MwK11ReNJNfOQ8L2quZRmhvMjq Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7BC9B06998620EABB0CDAAEE" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7BC9B06998620EABB0CDAAEE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/04/2021 23:19, Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:13 PM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >=20 >>> * This proposal would make the general IETF list much more tightly= >> moderated. >> >> I'd like to say: actively chaired, rather than managed by retroactive >> blame. >> >=20 > I want to second this comment from Brian. I think that that would go a = long > way. Me too, though as before I dunno how the IETF chair/IESG will manage to hoodwink some people into taking that on;-) S. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 > Regards >> Brian >>> >>> >>> >>> Should we take steps to encourage more women and under-represented >> groups of people into leadership? Where and how do we discuss that >> question? And then, if the consensus is yes, where and how do we disc= uss >> mechanisms to do so? How do we discuss whether or not to hold an onli= ne >> meeting or a F2F one, and how do we keep the conversation from getting= into >> the =E2=80=9CUS dominates=E2=80=9D discussion? Is this list moderated?= Who appoints the >> moderators? Where can we complain about the job the moderators are doi= ng? >> Will we be allowed to speculate on the vaccine distribution when decid= ed if >> November is F2F? Can we be constrained to do that without comparing >> societies? >>> >>> >>> >>> * I don't think the IETF should host "ietf-discuss@ietf.org > ietf-discuss@ietf.org>" at all, but it seems I'm in the rough there. >>> >>> >>> >>> From what I have seen, your proposal is in the rough. I just looked= at >> the 44 messages in this thread; there were under a dozen people, and n= obody >> supported you. (Maybe, if you squint, you could claim Stephen does.) = I >> assume you have private email that was in favor. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> >=20 >=20 --------------7BC9B06998620EABB0CDAAEE Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------7BC9B06998620EABB0CDAAEE-- --N75TDq9MwK11ReNJNfOQ8L2quZRmhvMjq-- --o2ZOorSdsLPBoNdRIxBhFOtONbzRtEsrV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmBs3xUFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qM iA/+LtyOM94XHMMeJVWqP7K9A2TTCrzd8hARO5RjRolBBfFxWsZgxGjVFoivVFf+2UCEKVs8FCQG tEeLqSyQ2KnFFE6OmvI0U0WJaVa7jjUWkrE72W7jdhbCegCA1gG8N4S5D5quRDQl4QbxR/ea6+Ay 6IxFlMbkM96liXsYcA7wZLVqLhtg7hmr4o3fiXzma+AKVzDp7UyWJFN/V4ysDNlMWKOWmvADAaBV Mk8Qeym0OYnL14+0XkKAx88GcuLkFHiYeXWb60OqNdUOA4Sw7k4RNOvfLRf6drVX5Fv69w8Iy0yw GBIHauzPkyajgaNNhZ94oSmdrqnQErJTFL2Obs1EBnZMdLHVT0kMTiuUTMEUciR/RInNLsFYx0IN uih+25AF/bKvYamnP6SpmbKr8Hlzihue/OkxVS5DF7jpnJkvudOgMYODIt1mt52YdI3UviEcGTG6 9JyJUEVeUU03w3OABJxJvBFo7qcQD4PBsTfHdCn4J1aZOfU2AHyIV3v1JJ+sCUnKIt/HkNGq+vds VBOUAs1r6ktJvFG6KxQSTVFg+2rL1wEMivUqBJl5WpNY7OZFRKAsNbNhtfMUo1Xrmz2mokWgdvFp HAtL2gCYzLn0SnOQ3lmw+YoTwQpK6KG04/+S9w/rfUmuWd8IKXgD6DDYLLNTj5wB8XRNAeJtrvCh c5Y= =Bgfi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --o2ZOorSdsLPBoNdRIxBhFOtONbzRtEsrV-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 15:45:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84EF93A342E for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:45:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JxBtulMPU5iD for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 271263A342C for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id k8so14837368iop.12 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:45:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BfufwlFDR+2hzUaF1fOVt3kgob38DrbxJxQnVeas8Dg=; b=sjcj6SMp4hXnxcYclxXQnJnKB+il6gulv0EkH4fNmWHTauSacLTdN34MiW6Yim3O8f lPTWFqTO6b+/Hz9xUqhngmawT/+nLVkHhCmD1GGhLLnKkCQZ9mbAoExaurI6QvqlNaqb w3pfSycGwX2O8Oo5u26CaTkR79VgGRRQnjeNgXJ4EMWe7gNNsiiDZGd7MT6lwUhHXqZk CN8Ji0pAmpDGeVeKbYFcCN6DIHv9AVNOWn+zZ5wZ60liLuEGQwZalETrmtgBtRUtaUtY xLtUWlkMPg73TZW5gRRc3lLChw0nmkoSG/1xjQOO31dtAasQUQZpXUimXumZA814GiJj MTmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BfufwlFDR+2hzUaF1fOVt3kgob38DrbxJxQnVeas8Dg=; b=Owedtt+6j1TgW5ydoXrUfzFtvpVq6vCHqwIZZXomXXIaYC3Wc+RWXHflPiO5X/+6D8 PksiJfHC4b+w+CVR0Nry8VDxgznyVr526QpMhUT9bb2C18rilVmahyySbXhGUfVQMNr0 LXGDVlDfjsn9JF3be1G+JsWKbDHfx74L4/ZJN5HcXFs+OBv7B5iYKYp8AD+X1QYoO1Gz 0xc/sBwlGaFUt5jo3EL6+MSfNRs9Qwoba+s7QKGL3DC8zHnylkP1v/ygKiRYmCmn+OmK +cCJhguGkDcPG56ywAaWMbVr9m3UrdITFo+JfXr/2+dozCYT7Rg/C0TmgEte1kL+6x0a 4R+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532EAf/48mKbT+9uBa8eErMsl7yg42zoW7KfznFd8BgDHyaQYvcO RkJdTjxho9TTqeSTB3+KT86J2iGyvnGHS0d7EO8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQdGjPP4Unoh2lsG6zQnbC6ArrSNwBJpjHtU8LAtY9VeGLWxbY2ECmuABa2jInXwYFhttcgLFUPDq/Pc9zCO4= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9e03:: with SMTP id h3mr156155ioh.94.1617749141927; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 15:45:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:45:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f0bbfe05bf559229" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 22:45:49 -0000 --000000000000f0bbfe05bf559229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:22 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 06/04/2021 23:19, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:13 PM Brian E Carpenter < > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>> * This proposal would make the general IETF list much more tightly > >> moderated. > >> > >> I'd like to say: actively chaired, rather than managed by retroactive > >> blame. > >> > > > > I want to second this comment from Brian. I think that that would go a > long > > way. > > Me too, though as before I dunno how the IETF chair/IESG will > manage to hoodwink some people into taking that on;-) > I think the last message you sent to ietf@ was this one: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/VGxz5-hlsBrSHjUCn1MOTB7M21A/ where someone decided to compare "Diversity and Inclusion" with "Disagreements about Encryption". I am not sure why you think that is a productive list to engage with, or even have, although I agree with what you wrote in that ietf@ message. thanks, Rob --000000000000f0bbfe05bf559229 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:22 PM Stephe= n Farrell <stephen.farrell@= cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


On 06/04/2021 23:19, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:13 PM Brian E Carpenter <
> brian= .e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * This proposal would make the general IETF list = much more tightly
>> moderated.
>>
>> I'd like to say: actively chaired, rather than managed by retr= oactive
>> blame.
>>
>
> I want to second this comment from Brian. I think that that would go a= long
> way.

Me too, though as before I dunno how the IETF chair/IESG will
manage to hoodwink some people into taking that on;-)
=
I think the last message you sent to ietf@ was this one:


where someone = decided to compare "Diversity and Inclusion" with "Disagreem= ents about Encryption".

I am not sure why you= think that is a productive list to engage with, or even have, although I a= gree with what you wrote in that ietf@ message.

th= anks,
Rob

--000000000000f0bbfe05bf559229-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 17:19:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0183A3738 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:19:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tcdud.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02n7m-ZfVurJ for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr80093.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.8.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A3A33A373A for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:19:34 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Mqxxx7zcVD+yDlw8A/W28W3cHvoE0zhE81Ht9Sa29FxTaXfCvk/l9LTx5J+OYpW2i1kbFd2Ith8kkHaCgiOo/ogC5cF/L4vOiujSoLR59hwC9efWD2f2tXzpGCwQ75C/pnldyr6CKdS0vuTCVHyHXZxr8W0UIYLk0zo+Bm7/EBTshHYKumIj1txf0mN2hPlk6J1wyEHTnuK41Wb1sWVeztm20nMLCIST+2nXeD8cnu1l3mnhyM3y1pP6t5RXoY8PWwh0qKotnOZHYWjgTX2CJU2E+Ip0D76Iv3YJfFMxpPlYAxJR4AX06N4/vIyIfUT4gyg0FF/hxx8XUhNxmVpIGQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=BalOxCa+5vxWjsW0ZAvWqWb8GaEUKh64r0Wf5Sj5KeM=; b=Isn752nWBfZjrKkLsRhQo0kgfz3ZLl5kCO0br5yAed9HlCAj70wK6XfU1XgHHG7DUg6qcFYLa5Mn0wT1F9FOQ1ttA1jqRfuHR0Bjqh+rwRz8Kbw+vDKrvFaXRiAZ5hHoLUVBVG5My1DXjC6wuJQGkJToRCR9Ic7SQGgh26V+wR6Ht17TnAsWP0hCx2ADXYgoL5KjUPWdRfTVUi+ThuTeC3BZ/JUzsH1nfI3DzRsHiWCfOGTejRwAN/+W4qw89ocyWzaINLHGqSdO0++k4ibwCABABXW+97fpIuDUxumgVT6P1MjkXxH6baM6r1sYORI1jbNjS3xgpg1Wd4wD54NVAg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=TCDUD.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-TCDUD-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=BalOxCa+5vxWjsW0ZAvWqWb8GaEUKh64r0Wf5Sj5KeM=; b=XYrSUSEm+lhB0Y1AUf/JHOoCuvOvbpcvk8QiEErD5ckzo1qnzlAEGhdzLpnao9HZ5rwwfQNN7x5SuCnK/JD2r9piWUYKN3+uhKeeIzCwh19E+DcOxVoplRpBhNLsMBg42yieDQHHhQv/XrVDexGnh5YJnik3nLH5iX6k2Mfwvhk= Authentication-Results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR02MB3080.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:1a::29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3999.26; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 00:19:31 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 00:19:31 +0000 To: Rob Sayre Cc: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:19:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qOuiLUfg1JOxSmreeX9CCOvPIHhr5gcyt" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB8PR06CA0012.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:100::25) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9a42:8685:7f6c:8044) by DB8PR06CA0012.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:100::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4020.16 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 00:19:30 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: d25d5196-7b98-43f2-9d9a-08d8f95ad02a X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR02MB3080: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:1332; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(136003)(396003)(346002)(376002)(366004)(39840400004)(478600001)(16526019)(38100700001)(186003)(45080400002)(4326008)(83380400001)(86362001)(21480400003)(235185007)(6916009)(66574015)(8676002)(8936002)(5660300002)(31696002)(54906003)(44832011)(36756003)(2906002)(53546011)(2616005)(66946007)(66616009)(31686004)(66476007)(66556008)(52116002)(6486002)(786003)(316002)(33964004)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?TzdwTzRYdFQ0NHM3bUpOOFdiaWpKQS9hQzI2MHBXLzRpMy9jeHpEZFlmSFFV?= =?utf-8?B?Mk1tK2JzQy9Yc1hyd0E4c2hZVTNKY0JCQTM1Z1N6UW1sbjhyZWVVNDdid2Vt?= =?utf-8?B?aDJlTHRFaCt3bnUyNTlJS1k3MXVzQ0k1VWtYanNIdnllc2U4U3U1T3dKbS81?= =?utf-8?B?MXR5K3phbS9uNzQxUzhiQzZnZzBVb096T1VrMmh3RVJEbWhWa2tUOWloSGkz?= =?utf-8?B?ZHRVS1FVZTY3S2s1SXZIcjRzNWN6cHVRcTJKMkIrSEtjZU4xT2hYNHZIRlhO?= =?utf-8?B?TFVpVldPb2F2Z1ppVHJtanVhNksvemROQ1N3ZTVBa09jVzl1NW9SS2dWcDcx?= =?utf-8?B?YXIvOWRiZGoyRVBPU3RBTFhEVjFTNHp6YS81cU4wU3ozMHZGN3pBd1V4aGRO?= =?utf-8?B?a0FCbVRkanlabVQzaW9iYzQ1Y3l2NXVhbDJHVkw1SVVTOE5TV2NxR21IbXIx?= =?utf-8?B?cmgvaVJwbkNMdUdWMnNVQk1kdE1wNWgyOGJXZ0lFOGRqVHdzL0pQOWVEdUpO?= =?utf-8?B?ZWp2UGxyTW51eVNpRTJIeHBaMmkrRnppdzU1Z0JkYlBOcDRBVUV0UzR5L3Bn?= =?utf-8?B?eUMzdWx3WTFqcnJvS1VyMGgyWnVDOHRCRFN3TWpMQ3lWN1BSallmMEhiMUpN?= =?utf-8?B?aEhSd0NtalJ1Z01KYXFZcTM2S2Z0U2hLK3hzTUZiVnNiYjFVdk9kckJXMjI3?= =?utf-8?B?YnhvOW9QdDVsdUpXb1hrSmJzRk5neTV3aWg5K0JPSVVGSkZHeFAvQXlzTFZG?= =?utf-8?B?cDNQOEJZcE5ja2dSaWRqZzViU1VFNHlPRXRieUladzhFVy9kM1UwRDM5Ymd5?= =?utf-8?B?ZHdXcEI0Vm94bVFISnBnWGljV0tPQzBkOEZDUXNrSHBLa3U1YWxkMFkxWVVF?= =?utf-8?B?MmR4czFKZ1R3eHhoTG1tNTJ2ZmlUL2duMFcvYnc3QkRsVU83ZkxhRnhGM1hn?= =?utf-8?B?WGg2ay84WXZoajE4TDROckJ0RlN2T1NhdmdFUkJoMk4zd1pPelRmb045TWJh?= =?utf-8?B?NVNTZkhMUFZNSGZ2QkFIVnJJZXRCUEcvZEQ3cjVSMVJSQmVwMEZ6c3l6Wklv?= =?utf-8?B?RFQrQW5pYzJJU1NHMnNyRUpPclpVN1E2a0pEdlJqNEZHV3VGU1NzRHhieUN5?= =?utf-8?B?R1o3dGl5bkRjMHI3VUViRU5Bc2dGRFpodEd3UDh4dzhodEFBdEhMREhlelVM?= =?utf-8?B?SExxR0dHckVrekRRSjk3Q1d1MXBOUEoyNmQ1SDVVZDNhSzlJRGM5by9jb21L?= =?utf-8?B?eEJpbzFTeWwrZTRNd2QxbkFJK1pFd01iQ3IwRjZ3bzlLYVNQZkQ3UWIzQzBQ?= =?utf-8?B?d3NPTEpURUFYMUxUOXhQRXh4ajl6YXo3UURITVJ6RFlNaXZzbHRyMWV3c29D?= =?utf-8?B?TzJidi9qTnY0YjRWYTZhTElZSE1GUFZkYjlMa3BkVDJ1SFpubkVRblJkdEdw?= =?utf-8?B?VXhpVXhRS0cyeG05bEN6ZjRwWlRQbVdxQUJNRkZXVlpDQi9VSURPS0F6ZWFY?= =?utf-8?B?eU1OcFVjOHFNUkd6MXJ0dDRRZmwzQnMwbnhtd3FrcngwK3ZRdGI5Ny9PQmRv?= =?utf-8?B?UzIrL0VoaktNTHpOZGp1T0JuNGtDaStsMUkyM3dZcXFqVjJlSS9HS2hTNUNk?= =?utf-8?B?MGJKVWRyKzlBSW5NclR5OW0reGlXbkU5dWtnQnFMZmZLNk00SnYzN0lVdFRW?= =?utf-8?B?bmp5cXJKa2VTT0k0bVBjZ3ZzMEZPNk94blVnTzNZMUozRDkyeHZZOWhyYjA1?= =?utf-8?B?aFNMN1R3ait0K1VocnhDSkREYk9RdC9lNUYwUlA1aVg3eGZpbjVlbkhXdDdX?= =?utf-8?B?MUhWQktORW81T0JqV3h4RHFERWFva0xla05qb0YxMXJYTXREZDF6VHcweERE?= =?utf-8?Q?87uI5jmQx7Sth?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d25d5196-7b98-43f2-9d9a-08d8f95ad02a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Apr 2021 00:19:31.0929 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: U0GKkgMbFPpYHEEe7L8XQ79xIJ5LmspozM8a1lCY5mnX29ca+bMvWAfSY5xlMsBP X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR02MB3080 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 00:19:38 -0000 --qOuiLUfg1JOxSmreeX9CCOvPIHhr5gcyt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qbxJVRu0IEE00fdgfZ1FaXcSwxLevmGvm"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Rob Sayre Cc: Eric Rescorla , Brian E Carpenter , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" Message-ID: <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --qbxJVRu0IEE00fdgfZ1FaXcSwxLevmGvm Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B44393C16A7952C738A46893" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B44393C16A7952C738A46893 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 06/04/2021 23:45, Rob Sayre wrote: > I am not sure why you think that is a productive list to engage with, It's not a problem that some things in the world are less easily understood than others - or at least I've grown to accept my lack of understanding of many things:-) I think there's value in a set of technically capable people who have more or less nothing else in common working on making the Internet better because that's what they want to do. IMO that inherently requires that parts of the discussion are very noisy and very annoying. I figure that is necessary otherwise we'd need to start requiring that we have other things in=20 common, thereby falsifying the 2nd axiom above. Attempting to avoid that noise and annoyance seems to me to be missing a significant part of the point of the whole thing. And yes, I also expect, and am happy, that the above is not universally accepted amongst the set of people involved. And sure, the above is also idealistic and reality is messier, but that's also ok IMO. Cheers, S. --------------B44393C16A7952C738A46893 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------B44393C16A7952C738A46893-- --qbxJVRu0IEE00fdgfZ1FaXcSwxLevmGvm-- --qOuiLUfg1JOxSmreeX9CCOvPIHhr5gcyt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmBs+pEFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+rg iQ/8C2K02f7ie1dpQc7OWkZT2Dg87cqQCBfK+xe/x+P/BERv//dPkHInnDIfGA6G9tpBVzz2uGy5 hQnHbcmsrI/sdgOq9XhS6rRDTDuDqUINczHgGc5p7H376s/6h9chM7OBVR7xVS2tDzyzCj8hDuzQ vnjULhXFDT0iqzugQljJfDd4/P2Y7zjeSMLwrGpsxppYMOzaFVuKb9yOsQBCTzBr/Qotj12yEHSb ylhs2beLpjZZJ08oTI4rJkmawyj0fkqtqE0wZR9/CDwfy3LW4N448yKSNBDhCWCNzJeg6ILp8EO9 0k2qdsqit9YQMVZ3TduuPlxbZ/CIBEa/crpXAaOeAo5O5M5izs6MbC7SeQv343DUyDoJUKCZmc5w MwyGtaN5EHszbiRF3il4akQMgYQUwxQZSSR0Mbh7yPkb4bBWCO76t3aZBKxdFfOZS63PYa3WViBR ZVWdPteRgyV71rVUoQamz6eiWVB1mj78AI3N9GdNfEgPqv6QyPK2wLvdkwIOV8K6Y3LvZb/fNfju 8/4a6F40xHyTTFQoY+HxQTmn+bUTwJv1JRG8qV2AECj6pATye6Q67RPHlyzAgyGBxm2UH5H9IueZ 4O2t7jyRH2/woFrO4T+Sq/RQu1qBgMkVfqlbD7fGt/A9ADuebwJZ1TgE7+Hjf/HmHNGTbHnIibyr 23g= =tJIw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qOuiLUfg1JOxSmreeX9CCOvPIHhr5gcyt-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 17:23:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791F33A3757 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:23:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=AThVW/79; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=JS2MV81B Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2OsiVUcCCcaZ for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD7AC3A3754 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939905C01D3 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 20:23:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; s=fm2; bh=BCX48BBMWa fZ/QPTD59rIVOuKQzi8iHo6gk9HVjMyEY=; b=AThVW/79qSBEio+8UjRxODipGm ldT9j7tqmsZ+q5vKHR+AEn1kghhl2KMNSh87+ciGO5o/SPRYTUioYuEzhlvfMjyl ZCx3XFMpC36ReXI4lvXpqGh0McXwX81ufwgTEqpOu6ritkjBpWXvwWSC0M6gJLsQ KP+yFD9q5+cgvNk0STIC+YqmZklD1ODrzwv6ihFuN+DhosvDosEIBCX/gVF5L04a fRAGQ30e6Kdv9zwHao8d+9WVxsJZnmoB2q2nYzPqGXhJx9XKGnJZSeC+VIOIZSvP T675cnC1vFT/cJeXKvORwPeNELXZeatKvrdjGVi+OPBHYsr1jiltSzHOEeNA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=BCX48BBMWafZ/QPTD59rIVOuKQzi8iHo6gk9HVjMy EY=; b=JS2MV81BuCucRnljQZuprS427pdonZuPh9cXKvpd4vn1jo4/uxchA1/xE E2oJLvdfTxmfzgTMPe/QlzJayQU4i46patxxugD+KSWYI6e/XZnxLOg4Ziphj99E 8l4PnYmtLAuuoAWqgqRLHIybKmtuWIi9yO9ceJlGcraRxcT+1MWTaBcrTqw3ndux Adz6Ha4wUDV623GZJRWAVN8cvia3zRu5OumUO7mnUlQA9QBKYbUwpTZPOgHHMz06 WSFLBJfYRkfPuDVhhbAhGSIO8t5AmoJ9BAnxb78FcjcGnDU5jIVClnOCGsD0yF2/ Z3d2Wde3Ma7Hj7Jc504NAWJahJq1g== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejiedgfeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhtgfgggfuffhfvfgjkffosehtqh hmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfehjeehkeekgfeiuddtkeffvefhgf fghedtledvhfefueektdekuddvkeffheeunecuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthen ucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 93E1924005C for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:23:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:23:28 +1000 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the dispatch question X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 00:23:41 -0000 Remembering that *this* is not a general discussion list, perhaps we = could focus on the dispatch question here. Rob says he's going to produce a draft; I made a different proposal on = the subject a while back. Others have come up with yet different = approaches. How should the IETF make a decision about what to do with ietf@? There's = clearly *some* amount of desire to make changes in the community, but = it's also clearly contentious in the details. I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after community = consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying = "IESG, you might want to look at this..."? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Apr 6 17:46:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF393A37FD for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:46:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QTI83tSkkgNE for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 692413A37FE for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id c3so6640881ils.2 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 17:46:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OW+htRmA2JHE8Eq8M3urwHOMRtkSdKAz4tUDTa7iTpo=; b=sL11AF+cV5TvFr8u29xdbZMfYH/bL3CuBtcrB5lCTHjJSj9hke9faaNTr/jgHwQviy iWypJa13/ScIah9ljsNAb61Iw+ZXk7DbuW8x5WvOxPGWoIh+Y3yt5vOEZSMMETA7Cprt rjg6PNXpVhsVdglOZLXk8PQIyoZmGqQZ04KMcWqmpAjxOrngqmGF54Ftkb2QPXV5ZyKw xguLPsbGyktvO8sHoxREqJ9+7A5SijJ9U7GMel8NGSzxShSDqGBCQFGTHdYFKPn1Nxsa pGzRK7qXNJfnrjqDNVmb8fxwfOwGM6OgljKz4D6E9wKDc/l/8rAIjxM2XqyLlewILou2 4ctQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OW+htRmA2JHE8Eq8M3urwHOMRtkSdKAz4tUDTa7iTpo=; b=teI4KRZVOFjTS1f5yl9EymoiGj3ilss7gQwUIA2hVZL1iHukcDSKclzha/GFvQcNh4 DDyjhHHXS2wcUErjjvl/uTXl0e5tkpm7f7Z1N7O8BlUV0AhMhoKmJALn7m5EW+K5s54x ANb4bSO1vOSjY1CIYrBhi37qOT7VTY48pCJKxXF6F8b/qXUw77pcghiYWIVXO0bL9C7C md01cLUpKe/4FH9wEUYm1ZFA8Llmn6gjtk9fZs2dq3GTwMEunOBnf6ioTwwuauw5HjC1 Be5uZRbrgI0YdZ0F+2gVvJ1w63TiV4cOwdb85OH7EKzis7KmXdnhUzarq7NpQuaZ9Bnt oQzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5318b5b0+eNhaiZ1gbWx9aoxj16rdbr13dub2U7EmZA2uPr0Yqy0 qulmHkE+q9hbeP9P0NjQUhz4us9qfj4a3xs4spYG/sdtwZA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLMItuIO1OB5P3wkQ8dMCOSJTk3KBPBfVr+B4Pni1EwZrh/Y39DpjG7QstpBV72+eZ4+8IHSI0USgzy6/IJqg= X-Received: by 2002:a92:da12:: with SMTP id z18mr709136ilm.189.1617756378960; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 17:46:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:46:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004d1a0505bf574259" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the dispatch question X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 00:46:26 -0000 --0000000000004d1a0505bf574259 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 5:23 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after community > consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying "IESG, > you might want to look at this..."? > That would be preferable, I think. It's only bubbling up here because nothing has been done for several years. thanks, Rob --0000000000004d1a0505bf574259 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 5:23 PM Mark Notti= ngham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after community = consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying "I= ESG, you might want to look at this..."?

That would be preferable, I think. It's only bubbling up here be= cause nothing has been done for several years.

tha= nks,
Rob
--0000000000004d1a0505bf574259-- From nobody Tue Apr 6 18:29:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7093A3939 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:29:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RbBjyAALx1k1 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0F493A3937 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 1371OY94026042; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 02:29:31 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=Yl17QSHgUyeygUXf4wKsnKomSs8nPi8VFxK8Ij8l7qw=; b=RtyIV1/+BrBu4jlu4ZiB78EialXgrG6wCFbOr0A9yXQeub6BrXD/k/fGIhllTiqZ/6bM GqNCgj37KdV0Frcd6AlCBVTiruU3xGk7GKqvJ5l54YBTfCYHgc6w4P3Aj7HxlxkrGUTx 5q/oUQWhC9hvPKlZjcVr+1zqx5kVxsjj42hqQtVm34YC/hiRwk5TEbNYB7EMJkXKXZIj S5iqOhaGndS3vKFe8YJcTI/cUNmnwg+/uuEoBuoHD3y6tn87lsws063hxPMQw3UyE4JB qCAlatfamObFnQEhx//GumkiMwAHJGXu0+iGSwzm/cDwb42A8eoDYP/OcHkVa4CB/Ozl NA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint1 (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [184.51.33.18] (may be forged)) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 37rw60sd1e-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 02:29:31 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 1371KOAd030227; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:29:30 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 37rw080ru8-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:29:30 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:29:30 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.012; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:29:30 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Stephen Farrell CC: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org Thread-Index: AQHXKDAT+puxFm5+c0mnHgx6RTeegaqnnieAgACzE4CAAAYYAIAAAN2A///yWIA= Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:29:29 +0000 Message-ID: <2B7128FB-6B80-41DA-94CC-B1B8DA21C489@akamai.com> References: <90645d97-41ef-d09d-aa38-e15a8dddb293@cs.tcd.ie> <39f3d687-ea21-29bb-20a9-5b64bd279397@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <39f3d687-ea21-29bb-20a9-5b64bd279397@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.48.21040401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <435E46562EE73140AE42E65A486D6EB4@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_09:2021-04-06, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=885 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104070006 X-Proofpoint-GUID: l8s6yjoPr0YrQAgRUdXQBnhKTXrehehx X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: l8s6yjoPr0YrQAgRUdXQBnhKTXrehehx X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_09:2021-04-06, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=823 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104070007 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.18) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 01:29:43 -0000 PiAgICBJJ3ZlIGFscmVhZHkgc3RhdGVkIG15IG9waW5pb24gb2YgdGhlIGxpc3QgYW5kIG1hZGUg Y2xlYXINCiAgICB0aGF0IEkgZG8gbm90IGFncmVlIHdpdGggdGhvc2Ugd2hvIGFzc2VydCB0aGF0 IHRoZSBsaXN0DQogICAgaXMgInRveGljIiBvciBhICJ0ZXJyaWJsZSBwbGFjZS4iIEl0J3MgZmlu ZSB0aGF0IHlvdSBkb24ndA0KICAgIGFncmVlIHdpdGggbWUgYnV0IHBsZWFzZSBkb24ndCBhc3N1 bWUgdGhhdCB5b3VyIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9uDQogICAgaXMgY29ycmVjdCBvciBjb21wbGV0ZS4NCg0K aWV0ZkAgaXMgbGlrZSB0aGUgcGFyYWJsZSBvZiB0aGUgYmxpbmQgbWVuIGFuZCB0aGUgZWxlcGhh bnQ/DQoNClNocnVnLg0KDQpJIGFncmVlIHdpdGggd2hhdCBTdGVwaGVuIHdyb3RlLiAgSXQncyBu b3Qgb3B0aW1hbCBmb3IgYWxtb3N0IGFueW9uZS4gIFBlb3BsZSByYXJlbHkgYXJlLg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Apr 6 18:32:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708883A394E for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:32:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16ACyvK3TGog for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E9A63A3947 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8282B11F4 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:32:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=j7HqsNjTM6CUUZxufheWn6v4x1ncjpZSTxHQ4xh+L 6M=; b=wl0wvu/bir3xLE95ny1DqVOeUvW69kQxsw8BwaCfvBmfBKIJoPPWdW8Tn 9+y+zWKx93iVvmjP8DB0TQ/o9sOc4Q0rbILSju+oZq/uRT/ddBAAGGWpsfoEnvEJ xuwARO210sjvXqwqn3dqpvHLH4yr7LzqbvVkX53QvAC/RMDmnpFtkhTMpa/7mmjt m//jH0+um4otRp5EMU2S8ON+M18ieRwueaL+tEA/Yc8RXX5d7kS7Zmgqa4J6u7si qLMkqAtwvW6YT9SFLbOguLF2GJGridhhQH8UPh94aleEwbeOQQYAhX9ZSTWwLfnO rvp5uCgx16uSEGZUmYUKL2EaFg7vA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejiedggeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucfkphepvdefrddu vdegrddutddrudejtdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.69] (23-124-10-170.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [23.124.10.170]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AC74E108005F for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:32:17 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <72437d53-3fd1-cfc0-e0b8-52d29d0f5a14@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:32:16 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 01:32:27 -0000 On 4/6/21 8:19 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > I think there's value in a set of technically capable people > who have more or less nothing else in common working on > making the Internet better because that's what they want to > do. IMO that inherently requires that parts of the discussion > are very noisy and very annoying. I figure that is necessary > otherwise we'd need to start requiring that we have other things in > common, thereby falsifying the 2nd axiom above. > > Attempting to avoid that noise and annoyance seems to me > to be missing a significant part of the point of the whole > thing. > > And yes, I also expect, and am happy, that the above is not > universally accepted amongst the set of people involved. And > sure, the above is also idealistic and reality is messier, > but that's also ok IMO. +1 The more I read of this thread, the more I think that the most toxic aspect of the ietf@ list is the people who incessantly complain about the toxicity of the ietf@ list to anyone (and to any list) they think will listen. I'm sort of inclined to think there should be a new rule for the ietf@ list - you subscribe to this list voluntarily, and you can unsubscribe at any time.   You might not like it, but some people do find it valuable even with all of its warts, and believe that the list would be less valuable if only posts that nobody could possibly find objectionable were allowed. The rule for being on the ietf@ list should be this: No complaining about the content on the ietf@ list, and no complaining about what you're missing out on by not being on the ietf@ list. (If it's absolutely necessary to rename the list to something else so that people won't feel like they are somehow required to be on the list, I suggest ietf-nocomplain@ietf.org) Keith From nobody Tue Apr 6 18:34:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472143A394D for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:34:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dwDBsVG20xC1 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C498B3A3956 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01EC3118E for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 06 Apr 2021 21:33:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=LGND5IFVxvvwgEhKE8Z8qQ83wVklpkaxrgAzoQb/W fY=; b=HAZ/VT9Deuylrz8NBzDDlajCRsG1FLh/9buetUDsCkdcphP+qqhTBD3Od ioJNuOceKj19fvrbXSJBXqEhT7e9NEbmc+DYo0ggyt5xVyWOox7xasWI1sNym6b/ MW7oxXDkr4VgdSV10SnaEBeh8nW6mpEEVvTUa88oGKxjvkIL6RgbP7wjvt6S/RIs O+I/NIjIwC+8VEj6cjmTa2S4BF2i3cBhV/zQVrvpJRBSV8iIPUDW3evY94ORCVyB pmSK0onXGedw/ZSUe91drZYww6NYc+uxbQkU7aj/q/YWKgk0Rz3ZYieY5QHMc55m uEiIZJuZZ5rIbqJcBCUVhgno27qpw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejiedggeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekvdeggfelue elkeeuhfffheeghffhkeeuvdduudeihfehudefffdtgfdtkeffgfenucfkphepvdefrddu vdegrddutddrudejtdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.69] (23-124-10-170.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [23.124.10.170]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3A2821080064 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:33:57 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <90645d97-41ef-d09d-aa38-e15a8dddb293@cs.tcd.ie> <39f3d687-ea21-29bb-20a9-5b64bd279397@cs.tcd.ie> <2B7128FB-6B80-41DA-94CC-B1B8DA21C489@akamai.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <4d3f265d-c18c-8113-5025-16ae8c18dc56@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:33:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2B7128FB-6B80-41DA-94CC-B1B8DA21C489@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 01:34:04 -0000 On 4/6/21 9:29 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > ietf@ is like the parable of the blind men and the elephant? IMO IETF would be a much more effective organization if more of its participants were aware of that parable. Keith From nobody Tue Apr 6 21:26:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D063A3E59 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:26:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ni4B83NQFIS5 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bird.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (bird.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 224543A3E58 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:26:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4EF7482B33; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:26:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a23.g.dreamhost.com (100-101-162-28.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.101.162.28]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3E8B5482E12; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:26:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a23.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.101.162.28 (trex/6.1.1); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 04:26:40 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Minister-Bubble: 122ba8d5596a5cfc_1617769600516_3983768619 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1617769600516:2363297288 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1617769600516 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a23.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a23.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D183387586; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:26:37 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=uGGGXdxEaO97Ub AHrtr7bA6Tjso=; b=mCcbTk/NDIyi/69Flj42kPCEaqYICC1+fQCuejx/Jb8kkH CUpAUlLqxVmF09G0AOIS4tUTQGVLqe7P8rs+SOAA9/LfC77V9cIe+fwE47HrTICd /RSfmWTSFASRsF3V+kjPxF/fhQzRmLPnVpNiGYp69C58Es31OMRoXMu7p5Jx0= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a23.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 218CF87585; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:26:35 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 23:26:33 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a23 From: Nico Williams To: Rob Sayre Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210407042530.GV3828@localhost> References: <90645d97-41ef-d09d-aa38-e15a8dddb293@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 04:26:47 -0000 On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 03:15:16PM -0700, Rob Sayre wrote: > The opposing argument is that the ietf@ietf.org list is such a terrible > place that it is not driving cohesion, and is actively harmful. You keep saying this. The subtext I hear is that you find specific individuals (or what they say) harmful. There isn't a very large plausible list of such individuals for you to so dislike, so I think this is pretty close to a personal attack on them (us??). Please tell me I'm wrong. So this is how it is. Attacking a group of unidentified participants is OK. Naming the people one is attacking, is not OK. Except that if the group of unidentified participants being attacked is small enough and easy enough for anyone who cares to to identify, then that has to be violating the spirit of the rules if not the letter of the rules. And also probably committing libel. Once people start losing jobs or business, we'll have several participants here having incurred civil liability for libel, to say nothing of the IESG and ISOC -- let's not even think of reaching that stage. Henceforth I will call out every instance of name calling, implicit or explicit, that I find on these threads. I've already started, as you've seen. I've had enough. No more implying that Viktor, Dan, myself, or any others who disagree with you are bigots, racists, or whatever. Stop it. No more bullying. No more name calling. No more intimidation. Nico -- From nobody Tue Apr 6 21:42:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F2F3A3ED4; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:42:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17SdN7WlUC-5; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FDAD3A3ED1; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.129] (unknown [186.19.8.47]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A46A28032A; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:42:35 +0000 (UTC) To: admin-discuss@ietf.org, IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <161660510071.20924.3099658409030112551@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:42:21 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <161660510071.20924.3099658409030112551@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [admin-discuss] IETF LLC Statement on OFAC Compliance Questions X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 04:42:45 -0000 Hello, Jason, Your note on the IETF blog says: > That said, we think it unlikely that OFAC rules would meaningfully > inhibit participation in IETF activities by individuals from > sanctioned countries, or ever have in the past, as a general matter. and: > We have no data to suggest OFAC rules have ever prevented any > individual from participating in and contributing to the technical > work of the IETF. We predict this will remain true in the future. > OFAC rules thus do not appear to be a factor that will lead to a > negative impact on the diversity and inclusiveness of the IETF. May I ask what's the basis on which you've arrived to such conclusion? For instance, do we have a long list of participants or I-D/RFC authors that implicitly probe that OFAC compliance are not an issue? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Apr 7 06:41:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EDAA3A14CE for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 06:41:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QyTfAaAJE2pP for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 06:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B7403A12CE for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 06:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B0FDF65838; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 08:41:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x06bTtzEIx2e; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 08:41:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.27] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3DAADF65809; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 08:41:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Pete Resnick To: Mark Nottingham Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 08:41:17 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5786) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_64EA0EF4-F402-4424-A3CC-87B86043CE68_=" Embedded-HTML: [{"plain":[274, 76], "uuid":"98DB9004-E9D0-44E4-8251-F5460A05BA81"}] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the dispatch question X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 13:41:30 -0000 --=_MailMate_64EA0EF4-F402-4424-A3CC-87B86043CE68_= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown On 6 Apr 2021, at 19:23, Mark Nottingham wrote: > I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after community > consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying > "IESG, you might want to look at this..."? Yep, that's on the list in the charter: - Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the work. Nonetheless, I think the IESG would appreciate a draft to look at. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best --=_MailMate_64EA0EF4-F402-4424-A3CC-87B86043CE68_= Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= p dir=3D"auto">On 6 Apr 2021, at 19:23, Mark Nottingham wrote:

I'd observe that last-call@ was int= roduced by the IESG after community consultation. Is that a potential pat= h for dispatch -- i.e., saying "IESG, you might want to look at this..."?=

Yep, that's on the list in the charter:

- Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC co= nsider taking up the work.

Nonetheless, I think the IESG would appreciate a draft to= look at.

pr
-- =
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best

--=_MailMate_64EA0EF4-F402-4424-A3CC-87B86043CE68_=-- From nobody Wed Apr 7 06:46:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08C13A192A; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 06:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qStS9NjgQWN1; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 06:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.145.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09A553A1897; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 06:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0184892.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 137DZctt030067; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:46:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=pJ2kR9gp9rU1WfsYBU65KZAppsoez2pztOXM9ajNb/g=; b=3J9OfEbcljMktWiZWlZuCuGDIsHetq2HNUW+BnrGBe/7JTUvoYoiB74FH1ooZ7mdDGXE f/TllnmuXO8AaXtHoqnTq+dNjef6NHSQc5RVwMxDX10EIe8S9QOJ5GupGDo1N4timUC6 EVh/H1fX+HfKQoU9cI9I5+LoD5mIYVNGbsXzDOP7U7pyBlqpf94FJR1/uWG/XM3hNAlB DCTMGH1lYmd/bCzTnTNBgQxs1yzcyQ0bmEK0SR12Cd9J09lxoPF6sdPbR8ACUXNZSMHX Pn9Qi0JubbXJG77O3BSspgQiKkne/gphNwrvWHBgbAFDbMv6NSadN07x08RSqMx1oZaX HQ== Received: from pacdcex53.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-wc-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.136]) by mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 37rve5epp9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 09:46:32 -0400 Received: from PACDCEX49.cable.comcast.com (24.40.2.148) by PACDCEX53.cable.comcast.com (24.40.2.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:46:30 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXEDGE01.cable.comcast.com (76.96.78.71) by PACDCEX49.cable.comcast.com (24.40.2.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:46:30 -0400 Received: from NAM10-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.58.105) by webmail.comcast.com (76.96.78.71) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:46:30 -0400 Received: from MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:189::17) by BL0PR11MB3315.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:6c::33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4020.16; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:46:29 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c80d:3887:55ee:e89a]) by MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c80d:3887:55ee:e89a%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.032; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:46:29 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Fernando Gont , "admin-discuss@ietf.org" , IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair CC: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [admin-discuss] IETF LLC Statement on OFAC Compliance Questions Thread-Index: AQHXK2h+5vvSB9sk1k663HsFiX4kuqqozvIA Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:46:28 +0000 Message-ID: <4F0D3310-8BC8-4AD7-8CF7-4CEC1A8FBB85@cable.comcast.com> References: <161660510071.20924.3099658409030112551@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.47.21031401 authentication-results: si6networks.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;si6networks.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; x-originating-ip: [2601:41:200:d70:1d8b:887c:108:8ceb] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7761cd16-f651-40b3-6732-08d8f9cb8bbd x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR11MB3315: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7219; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(396003)(39860400002)(346002)(136003)(366004)(8936002)(66946007)(478600001)(71200400001)(38100700001)(76116006)(66476007)(4326008)(66556008)(83380400001)(54906003)(8676002)(6512007)(2906002)(5660300002)(86362001)(186003)(6486002)(6506007)(53546011)(316002)(110136005)(64756008)(66446008)(2616005)(33656002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?utf-8?B?ditKcnJjREp1S0V0MlN2WjlERytYc1RldCsvaDY1WVgzSE9TTElpSURvMlFF?= =?utf-8?B?WjR3UGEvaWg5NlFKb01nZEp0QVg1U3AwaUFJY1QyVVhzQ0wyL0NwQ216OGdG?= =?utf-8?B?Y200LzNkSUFyUlBDa2k1ei95Ulkra1p3a3N4RC9sZmtMVHB0THBLS1lQU3Vn?= =?utf-8?B?VXJXeDUvaGhYdkFkY1lrQlZDdUR5UmgzTWc2VHIrRXkrSVZzM1hacU1oRkx3?= =?utf-8?B?S0g1TDgwVmxKYnZpOEZ0SFltVzlFV2ZQOTh5cXRvd0VUTlQ5K3F2dlFrNEYr?= =?utf-8?B?azQwTzkvTzBnY0syei9uU2FxZTNJM0pSQVh3NnlWL1ZJL0hLTzM3WmxDY0Iv?= =?utf-8?B?WVpidkphYjZRWCt3d2xyUitGbWdTam53ZkpSY29ZWUp4cXZLVG16Vkt0ZkQr?= =?utf-8?B?eEI4bmRmVmloRXZ6dlZFSHdQb1A1TENoVzRBa3RHdForeldSU1c3ODJwdzBW?= =?utf-8?B?TkpJdUNGV0FLVSsvRmtPUUN4SEZMODhHdGRYU0pSTFZYeXNmSU5Ubkd0TGox?= =?utf-8?B?SjVPVXhnSnQydERlYmF2VFJEc3VJQjJxWElFaXZ6N3JuTGJHVDVpVmJ3c0hj?= =?utf-8?B?QWd2RCtoZjdmbUtlL1JlOEZzdFR1UnBDNTViWDBwdVVlSkJpSEw2MGR0blBN?= =?utf-8?B?aW84QVZjN0NYRDJ3OGtxeVY1UDhJZk83aEM2WFUwU0F1SWVWaDQ0SWZXTUdu?= =?utf-8?B?dXFYVGpvZkxWR2tTM1ZNUkxWeE9vR0hOWFVyOTJrUlhwdUF1aEthUjlLcjMy?= =?utf-8?B?ekNBd0w1UksxSFZ6aXR4ZjVJSVZ4emR5ODNjblZQcE5qOG82c3VpcFpjeFBx?= =?utf-8?B?RWNzN3NXUllyZENrUStNS3JsTkRtRkdiQmFvYllCQVpTS2pzOW9VVzRieDBQ?= =?utf-8?B?THdFaFlzUEtoV2ZxZFMvNXdESlQ3QW1PRUc4VDUwWEx0RUdlanprMzRIWkhk?= =?utf-8?B?cS9GZ2xCWWV2Smo5MUxkbE5NTFdqZkdDNXNIeDArOG5xMWYrT3BvWmNseUNP?= =?utf-8?B?RWQ0bHY3UkdZSGphRG5DdkVzcHZtL2JSclA1SHhvbnhWZGVkeExUZ3dSQlVZ?= =?utf-8?B?V0xzc291dzBIeE1GZzQ2a1ZCQWZFOGZqSEtMWndyd0NsT0tXeExUZGxHRFlK?= =?utf-8?B?eXVXeGxRRlpRU2FkanR6b1hWaEJTRVlBek5zRzVFUWRqS3lNQ3Z2QjRRNzMz?= =?utf-8?B?cVVCVXZKK21KZmE4eGJwcHJXZXRmbENTcm50Nk1QOGRLWUl4Y3pvbGVRNFQx?= =?utf-8?B?V1pNZGpzVThzaVVRQk45eGJwL25qekk0Sm1acEdkT25EQm53R2IwZUFjMjU1?= =?utf-8?B?aERkUnpRNkJwaVAvNld0cWxERWhOZnd5QlM5NnFCL0RzbEFOaUdSdzVhSFI3?= =?utf-8?B?MVhsT3FXUThrcVNacUI2OGU5UGRhZXUxVWpRNStNSXh0Z011bXhsVXF5WTYx?= =?utf-8?B?elZtOXlGNk5aS1RucWRkempNcHNTaEgrNjRsLzcwVXNtRlJLYjZCT0NsVkVQ?= =?utf-8?B?enJLcHEzZHhsazVtWDVEOCtGVjhDYk81RU1KcVJsNFJvbmZxcXRqK2E0elhu?= =?utf-8?B?MTk1cGJVb3Y4em4xWW9ManVQam90TnZ3UlZSOXVxZFRERTI3anRYY1hKdW1R?= =?utf-8?B?cFpFbkJEWXJ3NFhoS0M3ZWlOYSt1SllyNEQrNUl2ZkxnL25rWitYanpwVVg1?= =?utf-8?B?SXl5eElxa25oSDZidGd0UHJBTFFLZjBtRmcxczN4V28wT0cwM3I5UTMydlI0?= =?utf-8?B?dEsxdHdQbVJwdUtZMGZTNlF4QWJrcXVJbzFQRDJENzExbnQ1RWswNytVSTBW?= =?utf-8?B?OUlrTHR1NXdVNU53Q0xIcC9xWFRxck40UmFJWW0va3VUbE9OT0FoZ2tyWjd5?= =?utf-8?Q?JfX+aIQsLXgEE?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=ZMrbrKtBOT6eOzbK9pxY+CsdyqkRrkWdQnlDECG+2QdB2o+3Eq5HwzPdDivdw7qVN1J/NeLlpjTSzlud8W7/TMVwEagKBKyVZYn2Fa+eg6HV8cc1t5hmKmdaSxwDbbQiZ3/l3L6kZ16PpjpM54T6pTrbK5eytChv+/5TKKfruLqNBzps+FIYKK3vAbCiYf8DAFlGvPG5CDxYCoyF564vxo8dXPAsKMeB/3lkCH++Am+7kYbxpj7lYBulslBr2OA6BFDKY+OwtNRwPb8aLNx2iyYmCFbYmlOJu80Gf0E4u6CBe2vwcXLsOwGt8BJ+QXo0oyyo37ZCiy1rHsVm/8vLXg== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Ec/6mEwtnpNuxYGeGE+npyiYyPfDvQFeY1NS0j70HRs=; b=MCpEYjiywIj7A+jNAcIiV73O79jiRm5u7f83KqgcDRdNt0vG/88YVI7jxi3lOmn+bJpKDDWaZzK4gbx9pRPuo7RFajmCbbRfq1SFIua9AD60de4R5xn0cak6L+QVVGReWxdmN007OeX3uEVaR76saZbShuJwCpiXlt87Y4Pi47+HYxU5dxhEZhqultf381/mQstObn8EFWVNZ6S3WN/MIaYQFnwOUgnqMj5ZkhM3FLz4hb5Jyej/2T9x/DKBrzyvPkOJSbrNPrq7UIdepKfEsGtSwWR9R6208q4fUvd4Vb/7xbfBVe45rODzLXg3J6SMKTkMfcxzMEoXeAzZxRVZBA== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB4287.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 7761cd16-f651-40b3-6732-08d8f9cb8bbd x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Apr 2021 13:46:28.9629 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: KJiC0Nys8jx8NOMOZIpcTUZ8PO6IIu4Uxok0itES47HsnWxFUtsaWUjBEKA6HbgjmZUBk9dVxCLyu4TbcVPf5zE9sAQEyox9o+A8/tz5vfo= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BL0PR11MB3315 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <93114DA53084724B825A58DC8EE06ADD@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWB X-Proofpoint-GUID: Jiv7e2n-ePVKZAG4yGQFPNBY1Z-W5QiH X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Jiv7e2n-ePVKZAG4yGQFPNBY1Z-W5QiH X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-07_08:2021-04-07, 2021-04-07 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [admin-discuss] IETF LLC Statement on OFAC Compliance Questions X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 13:46:39 -0000 T24gNC83LzIxLCAxMjo0MyBBTSwgImFkbWluLWRpc2N1c3Mgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIEZlcm5hbmRv IEdvbnQiIDxhZG1pbi1kaXNjdXNzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIGZnb250 QHNpNm5ldHdvcmtzLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCiAgICA+PiBXZSBoYXZlIG5vIGRhdGEgdG8gc3Vn Z2VzdCBPRkFDIHJ1bGVzIGhhdmUgZXZlciBwcmV2ZW50ZWQgYW55DQogICAgPj4gaW5kaXZpZHVh bCBmcm9tIHBhcnRpY2lwYXRpbmcgaW4gYW5kIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGluZyB0byB0aGUgdGVjaG5pY2Fs DQogICAgPj4gd29yayBvZiB0aGUgSUVURi4gV2UgcHJlZGljdCB0aGlzIHdpbGwgcmVtYWluIHRy dWUgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZS4NCiAgICA+PiBPRkFDIHJ1bGVzIHRodXMgZG8gbm90IGFwcGVhciB0 byBiZSBhIGZhY3RvciB0aGF0IHdpbGwgbGVhZCB0byBhDQogICAgPj4gbmVnYXRpdmUgaW1wYWN0 IG9uIHRoZSBkaXZlcnNpdHkgYW5kIGluY2x1c2l2ZW5lc3Mgb2YgdGhlIElFVEYuDQoNCiAgICA+ IE1heSBJIGFzayB3aGF0J3MgdGhlIGJhc2lzIG9uIHdoaWNoIHlvdSd2ZSBhcnJpdmVkIHRvIHN1 Y2ggY29uY2x1c2lvbj8NCiAgICA+IEZvciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgZG8gd2UgaGF2ZSBhIGxvbmcgbGlz dCBvZiBwYXJ0aWNpcGFudHMgb3IgSS1EL1JGQyBhdXRob3JzDQogICAgdGhhdCBpbXBsaWNpdGx5 IHByb2JlIHRoYXQgT0ZBQyBjb21wbGlhbmNlIGFyZSBub3QgYW4gaXNzdWU/DQoNCltKTF0gVGhl IGJhc2lzIHdhcyBzdHVkeWluZyB3aGV0aGVyIHRoZSBvcmdhbml6YXRpb24gaGFzIHJlY2VpdmVk IHJlcG9ydHMgZnJvbSBpbmRpdmlkdWFscyB0aGF0IE9GQUMgcnVsZXMgcHJldmVudGVkIHRoZWly IHBhcnRpY2lwYXRpb24sIGluY2x1ZGluZyBjb25zdWx0YXRpb24gd2l0aCB0aGUgU2VjcmV0YXJp YXQgYW5kIG91ciBsZWdhbCBjb3Vuc2VsLiBBcyBub3RlZCBiZWZvcmU6ICJPRkFDIHJ1bGVzIHRo dXMgZG8gbm90IGFwcGVhciB0byBiZSBhIGZhY3RvciB0aGF0IHdpbGwgbGVhZCB0byBhIG5lZ2F0 aXZlIGltcGFjdCBvbiB0aGUgZGl2ZXJzaXR5IGFuZCBpbmNsdXNpdmVuZXNzIG9mIHRoZSBJRVRG LiIgSW4geW91ciBlZmZvcnQgdG8gZG9jdW1lbnQgYW55dGhpbmcgdGhhdCBhY3R1YWxseSBvciBl dmVuIHBvdGVudGlhbGx5IGFmZmVjdHMgcGFydGljaXBhdGlvbiwgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gcmVhc29u IHRvIGJlbGl2ZSBPRkFDIHJ1bGVzIGFyZSBvbmUgb2YgdGhvc2UgdGhpbmdzIG9yIHdpbGwgYmUg b25lIGluIHRoZSBmdXR1cmUuDQoNCg0K From nobody Wed Apr 7 09:35:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCBB3A203F for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:35:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G5VxUo8566Kv for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 427D93A203D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id c4so19374774qkg.3 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 09:35:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=BFgQwfrISjuRjYM+aknF/eDgY/7gibqmxQKhoXzFzIA=; b=Q5xc7jeV4PZU9Bk8wIWsQe4s05VNmqgXzdaZMcCLSBnJyHKD5CPePaSHxzcmL9FOYo B9VlB9TJcZB4rQC8MpnipyTmfqX2afFjROicVi4PvEXFJvHqV33GzRDNYntZdSTgIzmc yhf2BhrdNPt9bj6e+h64zRuAkxqJ/HKmFwTS7Ljw9fc/rtJlsYZBIRbx+nxuOqg9q5rc zevosR6gu+g7E1+uuHMMej5ak3vt6LBWrCwxDNr3EeDnD6lf0ku+hwhSI9FgKoDteL46 6ANBVYySLntFIouVP+FwtCZSIEeu5xdc/snx5OcDny1Q6tG71gLeQ+cDscR5keUfwlom bC+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=BFgQwfrISjuRjYM+aknF/eDgY/7gibqmxQKhoXzFzIA=; b=agaUSf/319AbQhmZ/SXdUPA6WmWx3Dmd/19oWAa9HuTHfYP9iwDtUgpjEZxYfqzjPj OBi6jaow/c3Cjugm5KQipxBbXJQD9J9xg0TyCRiNWg7A4Q6ASjaDa/nh1KVqyQ3ywnl8 FOMF2TCuzFf41cZlnLXuSeCfThuEvplbWxaweqR/sBqVSS7Y6Qk+Rlb3EEGU/Mo8fuCG Kd3+UAufi1Azph2NZYOVu8soPqUSahP2hyq64nPwpVWll9WWks/kInFpGLih7BY1HHHS Co07sPkGgPCLNGECTgJf+Safk8P3ltnKlamS/WyV/+wri/9Oh3zdN9gFjuEghg4GxfF/ hxsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533EhbOXSYSXIcqrM0pPuYdyG4hkYMAMlQ4L22aOzoF4cDXK1Out cdbBkzpugX212DpmUYAjjIZ6ego5XUEB2w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwTfNObPfdBrSKBQupF9Ln2sfh9/oTDs3LbOEaMbAY5z0b8GNOWeJ0T+yqGPjmvdQ0HGDL0eg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a38e:: with SMTP id m136mr4013866qke.250.1617813319272; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 09:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.249] (pool-70-106-222-98.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.222.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f12sm17219445qti.63.2021.04.07.09.35.18 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 09:35:18 -0700 (PDT) To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> From: Tony Rutkowski Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:35:17 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------67DDF163F2CC1559FE7539C8" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 16:35:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------67DDF163F2CC1559FE7539C8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Having watched dozens of standards bodies like the IETF try to assess themselves for the past forty plus years - generally not well - this list seems to follow the norm.  There are a relative handful of people on this list, and the participation is highly skewed.  3/4 of the posts are from just 21 people who are almost all insiders perpetuating status. Perhaps the most significant issue facing the IETF was raised by Phil on 31 March - namely that the lack of transparency of interest is an increasing challenge to the organisation - especially with anticompetitive behavior becoming the subject of regulatory scrutiny and litigation.  The metrics of this list underscores the challenge - the principal proponents and decision shapers/makers lack attribution. During Steve Lukasik's last years, he viewed the IETF as one of his principal failures.  It was a great idea when he signed off on its initial precursor formation to get out-of-the-box collaboration among the researchers that DARPA was funding. Attribution as well as collaboration incentives existed through the funding mechanisms.  However, when it was cut loose in the 1990s, any sense of attribution of individual contributors and decision shapers was lost.  As Phil notes, it opened the door was opened for all kinds of mischief; and in contrast to almost all other standards bodies, the IETF is alone in avoiding attribution. Getting the LLC to buy more liability insurance has its limits. The IETF's diversity challenge is also tied into the lack of transparency.  If you crunch the numbers and examine how relatively few registrants for IETF meetings continue their participation, the organization is effectively self-distilling around a set of hardy perennials who are motivated by un-attributed factors to stick with the organization to pursue some obscure objectives.  Indeed, the IETF's substantial insularity and institutional self-aggrandisement coupled with a set of rapidly evolving technologies progressed in other far more active and effective bodies, does not bode well. So all of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse list is probably a good thing.  --tony r Posts %/posts accum % From attribution ? 76 10.1% 10.1% Keith Moore network-heretics.com 68 9.0% 19.0% Brian E Carpenter gmail.com 61 8.1% 27.1% Fernando Gont gont.com.ar 42 5.6% 32.7% Dan Harkins lounge.org 41 5.4% 38.1% Pete Resnick episteme.net 40 5.3% 43.4% Salz, Rich akamai.com 24 3.2% 46.6% Francesca Palombini ericsson.com 24 3.2% 49.7% Rob Sayre gmail.com 20 2.6% 52.4% Alissa Cooper cooperw.in 20 2.6% 55.0% Eliot Lear cisco.com 18 2.4% 57.4% Lars Eggert eggert.org 18 2.4% 59.8% Niels ten Oever digitaldissidents.org 16 2.1% 61.9% Eric Rescorla rtfm.com 16 2.1% 64.0% Mark Nottingham mnot.net 16 2.1% 66.1% Stephen Farrell cs.tcd.ie 15 2.0% 68.1% Bron Gondwana fastmailteam.com 15 2.0% 70.1% Joel M. Halpern joelhalpern.com 12 1.6% 71.7% Christian Huitema huitema.net 12 1.6% 73.3% John Levine taugh.com 11 1.5% 74.7% Jay Daley ietf.org 11 1.5% 76.2% Livingood, Jason comcast.com --------------67DDF163F2CC1559FE7539C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Having watched dozens of standards bodies like the IETF try to assess themselves for the past forty plus years - generally not well - this list seems to follow the norm.  There are a relative handful of people on this list, and the participation is highly skewed.  3/4 of the posts are from just 21 people who are almost all insiders perpetuating status. 

Perhaps the most significant issue facing the IETF was raised by Phil on 31 March - namely that the lack of transparency of interest is an increasing challenge to the organisation - especially with anticompetitive behavior becoming the subject of regulatory scrutiny and litigation.  The metrics of this list underscores the challenge - the principal proponents and decision shapers/makers lack attribution.

During Steve Lukasik's last years, he viewed the IETF as one of his principal failures.  It was a great idea when he signed off on its initial precursor formation to get out-of-the-box collaboration among the researchers that DARPA was funding.  Attribution as well as collaboration incentives existed through the funding mechanisms.  However, when it was cut loose in the 1990s, any sense of attribution of individual contributors and decision shapers was lost.  As Phil notes, it opened the door was opened for all kinds of mischief; and in contrast to almost all other standards bodies, the IETF is alone in avoiding attribution. Getting the LLC to buy more liability insurance has its limits.

The IETF's diversity challenge is also tied into the lack of transparency.  If you crunch the numbers and examine how relatively few registrants for IETF meetings continue their participation, the organization is effectively self-distilling around a set of hardy perennials who are motivated by un-attributed factors to stick with the organization to pursue some obscure objectives.  Indeed, the IETF's substantial insularity and institutional self-aggrandisement coupled with a set of rapidly evolving technologies progressed in other far more active and effective bodies, does not bode well.

So all of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse list is probably a good thing.  --tony r


Posts %/posts accum % From attribution ?
76 10.1% 10.1% Keith Moore network-heretics.com
68 9.0% 19.0% Brian E Carpenter gmail.com
61 8.1% 27.1% Fernando Gont gont.com.ar
42 5.6% 32.7% Dan Harkins lounge.org
41 5.4% 38.1% Pete Resnick episteme.net
40 5.3% 43.4% Salz, Rich akamai.com
24 3.2% 46.6% Francesca Palombini ericsson.com
24 3.2% 49.7% Rob Sayre gmail.com
20 2.6% 52.4% Alissa Cooper cooperw.in
20 2.6% 55.0% Eliot Lear cisco.com
18 2.4% 57.4% Lars Eggert eggert.org
18 2.4% 59.8% Niels ten Oever digitaldissidents.org
16 2.1% 61.9% Eric Rescorla rtfm.com
16 2.1% 64.0% Mark Nottingham mnot.net
16 2.1% 66.1% Stephen Farrell cs.tcd.ie
15 2.0% 68.1% Bron Gondwana fastmailteam.com
15 2.0% 70.1% Joel M. Halpern joelhalpern.com
12 1.6% 71.7% Christian Huitema huitema.net
12 1.6% 73.3% John Levine taugh.com
11 1.5% 74.7% Jay Daley ietf.org
11 1.5% 76.2% Livingood, Jason comcast.com
--------------67DDF163F2CC1559FE7539C8-- From nobody Wed Apr 7 09:55:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4946A3A20FE for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:55:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRFWdC4iukwi for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B48113A20F8 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635DA5C0090 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 12:55:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=dXRpXWlm3CR0Vc4TjxjTluR3bcqBTXaCAbA+ueBM7 nc=; b=lAnpBY2bgB6G4Gpwcs9AFEW2B47vCg87g9aM0tNo/wE7t4rBnUGWGs2OC UFjYSzK/zOQ3tC/AdAwrg1Q2dM8Gxe6vULf8D7m0xjodTLt0/O2F3t2fgGcPRYNE gDbQCINjVHUehyWLkC7/KaRpV4/zE26UoDHBg54y3llQ8vuwWno8rSdVALm6KA3e HNBnUVw2vRhNew7yGjkN/Ydl5Y6Ywo045idreQKCfGMqmdVeyh7fJTHr8/a7aq3+ q56h94OzApyKkats/n6vWALvxlZYsbH3yqI+WSkDeSvJ2pnJA+jprLIqaPSlfBuG VCQixF/0gHT9EjnUp8IlaIyl15wxg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejjedguddtjecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedthe efgfefgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppeejfedr uddufedrudeiledriedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.30.202] (c-73-113-169-61.hsd1.tn.comcast.net [73.113.169.61]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 853F8240066 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:55:03 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <2f524ba8-ff4c-60ad-12da-045416a48005@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:55:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 16:55:10 -0000 Tony, An email address is not attribution, and you know it. Furthermore IETF participants are supposed to represent their own technical views as to what is best for the Internet as a whole, NOT represent some company that in your mind might make them seem "attributed".   This is a feature. Keith On 4/7/21 12:35 PM, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > > Having watched dozens of standards bodies like the IETF try to assess > themselves for the past forty plus years - generally not well - this > list seems to follow the norm.  There are a relative handful of people > on this list, and the participation is highly skewed.  3/4 of the > posts are from just 21 people who are almost all insiders perpetuating > status. > > Perhaps the most significant issue facing the IETF was raised by Phil > on 31 March - namely that the lack of transparency of interest is an > increasing challenge to the organisation - especially with > anticompetitive behavior becoming the subject of regulatory scrutiny > and litigation.  The metrics of this list underscores the challenge - > the principal proponents and decision shapers/makers lack attribution. > > During Steve Lukasik's last years, he viewed the IETF as one of his > principal failures.  It was a great idea when he signed off on its > initial precursor formation to get out-of-the-box collaboration among > the researchers that DARPA was funding. Attribution as well as > collaboration incentives existed through the funding mechanisms.  > However, when it was cut loose in the 1990s, any sense of attribution > of individual contributors and decision shapers was lost.  As Phil > notes, it opened the door was opened for all kinds of mischief; and in > contrast to almost all other standards bodies, the IETF is alone in > avoiding attribution. Getting the LLC to buy more liability insurance > has its limits. > > The IETF's diversity challenge is also tied into the lack of > transparency.  If you crunch the numbers and examine how relatively > few registrants for IETF meetings continue their participation, the > organization is effectively self-distilling around a set of hardy > perennials who are motivated by un-attributed factors to stick with > the organization to pursue some obscure objectives.  Indeed, the > IETF's substantial insularity and institutional self-aggrandisement > coupled with a set of rapidly evolving technologies progressed in > other far more active and effective bodies, does not bode well. > > So all of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse > list is probably a good thing.  --tony r > > From nobody Wed Apr 7 10:30:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA5E3A2248 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:30:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fNTNUMBGyTyM for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E159A3A2247 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id x14so19540280qki.10 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 10:30:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=zoT/X8vF/Rlz25ryO7RdFlCfALyi98Cg9eWejs2ex7Q=; b=pYMd9UkX4CkNJjG2XUPZQyPr5dTaKRoBXXOgDy2j3YMYnthh/trn2ncwWEhKnnzTes oF8Q90AAaO+kwX5DzSf6ckpw0+ikYt+10Zv6sSk8KqxsAPckobYnGYuenAi9S67i/eCT MwuWfTyfrAyWxuKp0HK3RyTawqCh7OrgF5ktFKgN9MyGu4ATUHF2lGt6lHVvdUoSV8je qMCnKV9E1RmvvdmUhPfI+H+2WQ7hcVg/LcdxYunzLmFVx9OoWlrqQ+YxWSVOTIppJ21X hjOjUvygPTeL0IgNowA/SUMXQOzPMhbmJp33nZtNeITYeHaJU2ahiiOm4GXGeRjYR20T YSgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=zoT/X8vF/Rlz25ryO7RdFlCfALyi98Cg9eWejs2ex7Q=; b=TwDmQiAwPKnDbQChHDhI5aQg6+34DRPlwEKYRNPjW0TCfRB+Y+pXwOPJGFSL0d1rtQ QY5HXWQYhB1guoc+cK44kky3q50YZtihsn8EBPfX844TWAyMEsufwPKlp/cRGx/uBwJW YmctokAgP8Woh8KKixa0zPWyoC4zEYsF4FpjXn6kpIdfy4PV93/DrJFl0AxTF/4MuU3h m45rLbbquWUMvEjXA+JZW3Q3a/+NKpxgt0Bydsf6zyMOkTKOh6TrQ69lz+NYKhc7cxdA d/IZ76ABaUYgY6t6iKBrzpIPeusNT0zPN3p1zkP99wfa0pmMZ0g5uQtecaFUcHj18DvY Tesg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533y6053pqmQ+PJW2rjuCY0nh9fKci6FnwAiOLvBY4rmxDuo/cy4 FyE7fgtfrp+W4dgzSSzknQ630jxVHGWBbw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFiFkfsNdTMWSKieBBmQaSav9eIjONeKVJc8BMlJ19JcB19lcVzewW+Trj6MRItviqp7NboQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:7985:: with SMTP id u127mr4293040qkc.333.1617816648716; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 10:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.249] (pool-70-106-222-98.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.222.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d24sm18375208qko.54.2021.04.07.10.30.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 10:30:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <2f524ba8-ff4c-60ad-12da-045416a48005@network-heretics.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Message-ID: <95eea532-e6a5-994f-aec5-13185e3e5807@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:30:47 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2f524ba8-ff4c-60ad-12da-045416a48005@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 17:30:55 -0000 Hi Keith, The email based attribution helps, and many standards bodies enforce their use for attribution. You have to buy into the religion to believe the existence of "the Internet" and "represent their own technical views" mantras. It has been one of the IETF's principal liabilities since assuming religious status in the early 1990s.  It rather resembles QAnon, or maybe the Tooth Fairy.  You have to buy into the shtick to be part of the group.  Most people do not - which is why they just leave as apostates. As an agnostic who has participated in innumerable groups over the decades, they all admittedly have their quirks.  They are effectively clubs of like minded individuals who share common objectives.  Because many if not most of them are insular, they tend to seem themselves as the center of their mini-worlds. They IETF has had a lucky ride courtesy of the Clinton Administration.  That's not going to last much longer; and how the organization gets out of the box will be a challenge.  In the meantime, there is some value in mining the intelligence and IPR flowing through it. --tony r (just an agnostic analyst) ps. In the long arc of history, arguably the IETF did it's best work in the mid to late 1980s. On 07-Apr-21 12:55 PM, Keith Moore wrote: > Tony, > > An email address is not attribution, and you know it. > > Furthermore IETF participants are supposed to represent their own > technical views as to what is best for the Internet as a whole, NOT > represent some company that in your mind might make them seem > "attributed".   This is a feature. > > Keith > > On 4/7/21 12:35 PM, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >> >> Having watched dozens of standards bodies like the IETF try to assess >> themselves for the past forty plus years - generally not well - this >> list seems to follow the norm.  There are a relative handful of >> people on this list, and the participation is highly skewed.  3/4 of >> the posts are from just 21 people who are almost all insiders >> perpetuating status. >> >> Perhaps the most significant issue facing the IETF was raised by Phil >> on 31 March - namely that the lack of transparency of interest is an >> increasing challenge to the organisation - especially with >> anticompetitive behavior becoming the subject of regulatory scrutiny >> and litigation.  The metrics of this list underscores the challenge - >> the principal proponents and decision shapers/makers lack attribution. >> >> During Steve Lukasik's last years, he viewed the IETF as one of his >> principal failures.  It was a great idea when he signed off on its >> initial precursor formation to get out-of-the-box collaboration among >> the researchers that DARPA was funding. Attribution as well as >> collaboration incentives existed through the funding mechanisms.  >> However, when it was cut loose in the 1990s, any sense of attribution >> of individual contributors and decision shapers was lost.  As Phil >> notes, it opened the door was opened for all kinds of mischief; and >> in contrast to almost all other standards bodies, the IETF is alone >> in avoiding attribution. Getting the LLC to buy more liability >> insurance has its limits. >> >> The IETF's diversity challenge is also tied into the lack of >> transparency.  If you crunch the numbers and examine how relatively >> few registrants for IETF meetings continue their participation, the >> organization is effectively self-distilling around a set of hardy >> perennials who are motivated by un-attributed factors to stick with >> the organization to pursue some obscure objectives.  Indeed, the >> IETF's substantial insularity and institutional self-aggrandisement >> coupled with a set of rapidly evolving technologies progressed in >> other far more active and effective bodies, does not bode well. >> >> So all of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse >> list is probably a good thing.  --tony r >> >> > From nobody Wed Apr 7 10:35:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FE33A2268 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:35:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WMLbsYswesck for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 373E83A2265 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841DB5C00A4 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 13:35:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=JBDn/uP6dSnCyXYlSTvl0lO3mnd/ZLYZbJVHrXzsN gs=; b=KUe/pWbDkCAOFcYkmanx/taRgvdj3XGBMp9avKF+H5nmQLXQ7mXbmv396 3twkZbZ8wwyZ087enO8E03XteAbKFgIb43frLfZtbeWwRGuoOicV2abjeI9Vh30Y 6uglw57miHyBYWL82NV+GHRm2yvL3Dd6jrAcLrQwTUTsKSmlBjl1w+ni7dqOzm7M fwmc9BhQ7yNp2AMkAfAV/WrS7jK2JUW5CnIMeEysMgtO/sYmnJ2yZ9QkLuxFoIMO eWnBiRcughl1uL70xOPvo7BUW6KwhZLerUuUdsSnAIG9vAMUtGpa1jR+2h6c+M5D mitFNd0Bkiz9JYvfBzxZ6fmSEOOdg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejjedgudduiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedthe efgfefgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppeejfedr uddufedrudeiledriedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.30.202] (c-73-113-169-61.hsd1.tn.comcast.net [73.113.169.61]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3111824005D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:35:29 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <2f524ba8-ff4c-60ad-12da-045416a48005@network-heretics.com> <95eea532-e6a5-994f-aec5-13185e3e5807@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <5983441d-ec49-450f-0f7e-783fc09a60be@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:35:28 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <95eea532-e6a5-994f-aec5-13185e3e5807@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 17:35:40 -0000 On 4/7/21 1:30 PM, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > > The email based attribution helps, and many standards bodies enforce > their use for attribution. That's their choice.  It doesn't apply to IETF. Keith From nobody Wed Apr 7 11:23:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EACA3A23C8 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 11:23:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LjZ1kseI6hc8 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 11:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3882A3A23CC for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 11:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id e8so20449185iok.5 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 11:23:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=72Gn83FvxfoYqOIUDfT7zIOqG4GeIG+sNdnJdEu3kag=; b=jw4HcQLMxD2JNJbcIXh95XFScquSLbqg5KCet6kTtrvPflbRNVTlTWxuUomTBtvxm6 FTAlFLy6OLHSxDseNKdKnwFwOq6XwmIfPf5ISCoRT6+vgyOqEsuwrzwuFWAjFM85ImVO 5sL/vUTikCjW1wA9eopEJSzo+ez5iBs8VQ+z/ShIjem0E0X6fNefxVXxsNR6apgxIR2f 7wlr7CF1Tw0WQekxJE0BUcndecHPufMGrWYHEqXI2jLx4PcczH44Z36DFQMK3jZTVNwc S5vHFcJ2tOOjE1G5EALy9LkidS+nIOktIOqj/qdlhpNfPy184GJUwA/ra3nFcTyvAJde 4seA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=72Gn83FvxfoYqOIUDfT7zIOqG4GeIG+sNdnJdEu3kag=; b=tz7KAucxzJRyMEAHfbIorkYBCS1jBbPzvPK+2x0An2Qa+BDJI0Tc8gNz+P4UGdA/pe 3LomTx4T+1tlNAJih5ikKmUYxQpo2ZNbCJpwqxg4YJ62XWMF1OIu9FEBfgIxr32fTlQt xWka4C+JYN686ihsUYApI1nV+oOqiFdric4eY1CR8L0zbIU1hlgrEiTKlaIrfRfH2BT6 K6IkjK+09KUXBByi+LXhuXMl3bZi49wwct1zAkH4vy26WgZrcQIDO0yTIRChaa5sVV5N KFK/8bL1bmiyjSKxvJ72tPEuziCQawWffCxoR7ucIap99vzQRJJyhGqHLDivA6ICn0iW Cj0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532gkWHLPwgdeW1FYLF4hSo4oBz8JDW6eyz//+8i7iSYS+aAn1FV axrG9T99YZYJo+IyId0t2YWKl7ese6RJGSttx3g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxXvGpgVyjtarl1HLJQcW17pi0EUsSjXDFOXm9zHJbt7WwqZCFqet71LoqxMlDlI5zLbG/k1a0Lo/0hrJuYNpY= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9e03:: with SMTP id h3mr3616664ioh.94.1617819793525; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 11:23:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 11:23:02 -0700 Message-ID: To: Pete Resnick Cc: Mark Nottingham , gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a93ae05bf660645" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the dispatch question X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 18:23:19 -0000 --0000000000001a93ae05bf660645 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 6:41 AM Pete Resnick wrote: > On 6 Apr 2021, at 19:23, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after community > consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying "IESG, > you might want to look at this..."? > > Yep, that's on the list in the charter: > - Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the work. > > Nonetheless, I think the IESG would appreciate a draft to look at. > I don't feel the need to drive here. If Mark wants to, that's fine with me. This problem seems to be a bit of a hot potato. But I'll put on my flame-retardant pants and write the I-D if necessary. :) thanks, Rob --0000000000001a93ae05bf660645 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 6:41 AM Pete Resni= ck <resnick@episteme.net>= wrote:

On 6 Apr 2021, at 19:23, Mark Nottingham wrote:

I'd observ= e that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after community consultation. = Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying "IESG, you might= want to look at this..."?

Yep, that's on the list in the charter:

- Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking = up the work.

Nonetheless, I think the IESG would appreciate a draft to l= ook at.


I don't f= eel the need to drive here. If Mark wants to, that's fine with me. This= problem seems to be a bit of a hot potato.

Bu= t I'll put on my flame-retardant pants and write the I-D if necessary. = :)

thanks,
Rob

--0000000000001a93ae05bf660645-- From nobody Wed Apr 7 12:37:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD2B3A2699 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:37:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EFCWqFYpBW-D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42E633A2701 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com with SMTP id iu14so9639362qvb.4 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 12:37:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=WWVByQGUW7zmnlh855AaoReIjkB5w+epPpA6z12Mg7E=; b=al1slDtJ7njbT2ihFBLu0//lMU9i/w7XW9vzMRYH0NzMxcTI2FRcNiyXoH2KHteVvT AE5kIBJ7EB4FLHHLICEMtUhzG2QhjRvuM1WzIntsDz1Wd2bxjjhRB/FOanO/AQa2zUBp cp8HJk6G1iFG+cE0Sd9FxpVS0h/0x4pvhmmkInH2Q3/xRx41jjHB6MI0H/mPwSXhGoJ8 Zohdwp7CYppguV6hCDw6IElLh6yUg3qKjDwfSeaoO30935Zlk/2jyJ8vjVKI/aPU7JSa /34urq1nBwIBC+pfNxJBBCO5bl2xAKNeX2uFWXV3Rokdhmf+LOOQo+xxAipVKSwYYuZe H4xg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=WWVByQGUW7zmnlh855AaoReIjkB5w+epPpA6z12Mg7E=; b=HzacRN/6MSPfN/NVISuE0oF7jkody17mntQbJJPDzqm5uoyTen/VaVWzoQwtUN//64 woqgHUpbLr+Ba5Pnk+tN2qv0F5VY+wQCw8umhxOoajN/gIF87mwHIuN2hESmOvcCDSlT Y5GzMNkwSYfGL6GS9wlZxQhd+FRLb/9c/WfDycZyRh+a9l7t+BEAwrYBmSsSj4HeQKh5 bqDzi/aqn2OUj0lDN3BYGIIZTBaUI+L7cT06OPsDXcJsZmUP/uy92OeYSOrOzOzhPRvS g8oa0ADl+VMjdexRH6rokfUoo7j9Cg9WjOarZ5bj4ek/j0wmPf3Kh2GEFqcmX1lVC9+I CrsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533mDGWeish2VqSBayqiFPmWU7dzBDnISEP6bDGXN8/OJO3M8ZEf 4OgZSH4VRy+JCwOG0D15AeV5oDr3tZBIKw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjZdZbykBBgcAjMNTxlVZ6bYx4bIzNy6beaTr6o43tbZR3l1FAqsjsZnKwdv85H1GIZlLQ8w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:2628:: with SMTP id gv8mr5098443qvb.19.1617824238465; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 12:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.249] (pool-70-106-222-98.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.222.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 8sm19094458qkc.32.2021.04.07.12.37.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 12:37:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <2f524ba8-ff4c-60ad-12da-045416a48005@network-heretics.com> <95eea532-e6a5-994f-aec5-13185e3e5807@gmail.com> <5983441d-ec49-450f-0f7e-783fc09a60be@network-heretics.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Message-ID: <9162f39d-9eaf-cad0-93cb-92b30ccd8f99@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 15:37:17 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5983441d-ec49-450f-0f7e-783fc09a60be@network-heretics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 19:37:32 -0000 Hi Keith, Of course.  The point is that the IETF during the transition from its DARPA/NSF instantiation to a more public one, failed to give attention to the pernicious effects of a lack of definitive participant attribution which was well known in other standards bodies, and adopted a children's myth of doing good for the internet mantra.  It is like the Sydney Powell defense - no rational person would believe the myth. The lack of attribution transparency creates both significant antitrust exposure, as well as incentives for extremists to control the organisation.  That was papered over with lots of liability insurance, substantially increased patent filings, and an equally opaque, a byzantine faux approval mechanism that obfuscate responsibility and dampen diversity.  The ultimate determinant - what gets adopted in the networking marketplace - also controls the behaviour. In a kind of Back to the Future scenario, the IETF will probably have a place for attracting academic activists and mining their ideas and participant intelligence during the 70s and 80s.  If it wants to do more in the future, however, it needs to clean up its institutional act and implement effective transparency mechanisms. --tony (apostate analyst and not afraid of going to internet hell) On 07-Apr-21 1:35 PM, Keith Moore wrote: > On 4/7/21 1:30 PM, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > >> >> The email based attribution helps, and many standards bodies enforce >> their use for attribution. > > That's their choice.  It doesn't apply to IETF. > > Keith > > From nobody Wed Apr 7 12:53:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32FD3A273D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:53:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TrYIszpSAvY1 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 365D13A2739 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F645C00C9 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 15:53:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 15:53:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=iIR1LNcV+ku3CT51OCn5/egqX+ti625lUvOd+PQV4 dI=; b=qdRJQ/W8JU+3SEaZ1BJ52QJ22HyuhJD9tI0sw+cTTGy7V7oQgbg/TWfsV 6ryU22wkHV3OuVe21BvJb+uxOqEVl7koWnJu64gQq3ATJJ0zY1G+7o3/sOWe+0O7 R00Tps6tp9goW9Uq8E+Y+Pv3PPoPsbPOFGtPa/ePqqo8Rbc+TpLFtFrmDFh3igs9 nhlxu58KrNeY/V+nF3BOVZ4A9FvzAI+kUcHCHn4J6tKG/8xrxPmSGiWIE9WxBN9p DxcaT5qiVcx4o5qNnA5vD5woyMlHRMwcII4fe9ekUk1HZfBRvjWbQrNURDYxUgYi 6Zf1oVHvq6ketrKWZ1ARBqEf7qpgg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejjedgudeggecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkedvgefgle euleekuefhffehgefhhfekuedvudduiefhhedufefftdfgtdekfffgnecukfhppeejfedr uddufedrudeiledriedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.30.202] (c-73-113-169-61.hsd1.tn.comcast.net [73.113.169.61]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B795024005A for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 15:53:17 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <2f524ba8-ff4c-60ad-12da-045416a48005@network-heretics.com> <95eea532-e6a5-994f-aec5-13185e3e5807@gmail.com> <5983441d-ec49-450f-0f7e-783fc09a60be@network-heretics.com> <9162f39d-9eaf-cad0-93cb-92b30ccd8f99@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <23789860-1ced-7b85-bb5a-608adc156367@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 15:53:16 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9162f39d-9eaf-cad0-93cb-92b30ccd8f99@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 19:53:28 -0000 Tony, Whatever. Keith From nobody Wed Apr 7 17:08:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 881B53A2F78 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:08:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=FvVTE8BN; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ZW9JDVS2 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WIb9W0Es33P9 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A073F3A2F83 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DDB5C00E0; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 20:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 07 Apr 2021 20:07:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=E gN0hymSH4ZZ6skKb1k2OeNPx9M49uUdINWWiyIoIyc=; b=FvVTE8BN1vvbJb+zu v2qCfa8vDQoQStxKKLaEAueJXnZCY7ZwYfM97bGouKp8iboHRrqXsAKC+Oq+iBZ3 6M3BNMVXmrN9fpDtX5daEfHFmwwYEeg8inLIQfT0B9cT5bJC9pr/DecnU28zdeg4 jjpAKe/+lS6WY4DnIR5/8sNlMkgom5ECXz8Rh3P3a0fAr9+w+Md0oj3Cd1KN0K82 W2jn2fSwhhI658QgEnW96rnNlJf3Uw7qhnUvptyYlJ946iDkQzHov5JH/Jbcxo3F WhXO/soi/dLkSytKBRb5HJ9cl2YT1kxw4e1Id336PKi0IqG/6i2D8V1j2XbMpNNz Qkehw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=EgN0hymSH4ZZ6skKb1k2OeNPx9M49uUdINWWiyIoI yc=; b=ZW9JDVS2VXc0Maw6RDGF+zNOS8qAHji80bd3zYEBKU/CfL8pvdD3W9yze ygmfFA9kfDVPOyecWBVl0uGEK+NWgC3FDObs/7hQsnSQw7iOHcD/HNuDYktGD03f JbrH9fBvyNvVqBlPz8nCDNWUwSBttqxrLeQA72XeJRLKtWTDAe/R8y/GOZPSMm1d J0gqjdtLCjdJJ5JiBConpzQNbYXIuOd63/VXoOA4uYbS0SR+Nnsbk+f4cTLpnDlr XsOvlWYFpGnWJlmYLY7LB1vmFeoNI6aMVnlr/yWUOxeus4CT9BJ6rRSsmmPPhf66 l599VWgsTv3faD6i+g4GmnMCQfYUw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejkedgfeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne goufhushhpvggtthffohhmrghinhculdegledmnecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfv ofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnh hothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeejleefkedvtdeghfeujeek geffuddvhefhvdeuuefghfdufedvkeehgfelvedvveenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuh gsrdhiohdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvdehudenucev lhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmh hnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 29CA0240057; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 20:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 10:07:33 +1000 Cc: Pete Resnick , gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <61B3D1AF-235A-4C12-87E5-9584E549AA5F@mnot.net> References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> To: Rob Sayre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the dispatch question X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 00:08:17 -0000 My position is still best summarised here: https://mnot.github.io/I-D/discussion-recharter/ Cheers, > On 8 Apr 2021, at 4:23 am, Rob Sayre wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 6:41 AM Pete Resnick = wrote: > On 6 Apr 2021, at 19:23, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after community = consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying = "IESG, you might want to look at this..."? >=20 > Yep, that's on the list in the charter:=20 > - Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the = work. > Nonetheless, I think the IESG would appreciate a draft to look at. >=20 >=20 > I don't feel the need to drive here. If Mark wants to, that's fine = with me. This problem seems to be a bit of a hot potato. >=20 > But I'll put on my flame-retardant pants and write the I-D if = necessary. :) >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Apr 7 17:11:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B193A2FA7 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:11:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gIkOWN4Z2_oi for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 015503A2FA6 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id k8so305276iop.12 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 17:11:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0NhziouHPBHOhze+c9DR5c1qu75bNZbH+wZq8VqxhEk=; b=a3RBLEf90XF4dsGAcj92qMsNHDOl6KQKT44Mr71iSWDXBqHFxVI0BwDJYyl8PUTFcN 17qg5DFLRrT5ziNFzk0zUWmIMDIhYiZVISqpQ4P3E1KPYGv2lk+BUo6zUiTX5pBDMg0q PZY1fYMAr6qzL/ZGQ8B/wAaokhScGyVXxAWYhk/7zyVtPiTdX2rAmgkji5dfilg9a+VG LTpdzRUCjvxyHvAW50RKRfglkJXnAB9EUaahEn5X7vVXfHHdnANgzEXAtNko6f8GWeZI xfz8nPrJrR9HflW9OQWfiiZ7LGhLuzIZL2Jxcg7yx2877TnYgpw6pT3BTGp7QEG86FdG E1PA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0NhziouHPBHOhze+c9DR5c1qu75bNZbH+wZq8VqxhEk=; b=E7KEZ1IvZcJezPsTaTf+kapcPtmH2S9mnSg2eyD8cTrIcgsKSK5HXmRQPTcnocspI4 EbkSvXmYzFqgC0uL4aYvzguarHtPBQ6hyt40O6d4dia6lYJ3r3CQU4q7IKck/oQIM3if oxoHGmdG18pa+ZPPGvI0tu7SgbudLtwbiOtsJTey9eLLEWCHbmA6M19ZHTVeJbPKul3p sDJjqRyvvOOIc6zn4vVqxYc/3L+n8KgdOt/xrD0NfcZXyktjORU9ZoTcd8kcJgmsF7oN zb88vbreRcSxg6WJJ57A2IZcPAfcs6VwWQl+JZZwm19nyBhwT20YV+WRu6GJCqmKR5Vt 0ZrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5312NF8YsUPuVPRQRpzKKGgL/yfT4SJXSXSBUwJ0F1f4xEF7XejQ FDhkg3QDP2wTNyjoMC6Z/0kWeerk+R5ClAfdL9g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVi/yTNiEFhQPFn21f95lItAfU2J6/scTg5QtpDCy2U1kIzANJeQUXwFAxGDQiq9toNrxlR8iUzxMpcxDMgu0= X-Received: by 2002:a02:cc1b:: with SMTP id n27mr6039239jap.106.1617840694611; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 17:11:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <61B3D1AF-235A-4C12-87E5-9584E549AA5F@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <61B3D1AF-235A-4C12-87E5-9584E549AA5F@mnot.net> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:11:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Pete Resnick , gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e7d12605bf6ae320" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the dispatch question X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 00:11:42 -0000 --000000000000e7d12605bf6ae320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:07 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > My position is still best summarised here: > https://mnot.github.io/I-D/discussion-recharter/ Ah, I've read this draft before, and I agree with what it says, as far as it goes. I'll think about combining this and R. Wilton's ideas. thanks, Rob > > On 8 Apr 2021, at 4:23 am, Rob Sayre wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 6:41 AM Pete Resnick > wrote: > > On 6 Apr 2021, at 19:23, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > > I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after community > consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying "IESG, > you might want to look at this..."? > > > > Yep, that's on the list in the charter: > > - Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the > work. > > Nonetheless, I think the IESG would appreciate a draft to look at. > > > > > > I don't feel the need to drive here. If Mark wants to, that's fine with > me. This problem seems to be a bit of a hot potato. > > > > But I'll put on my flame-retardant pants and write the I-D if necessary. > :) > > > > thanks, > > Rob > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > --000000000000e7d12605bf6ae320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:07 PM Mark Notti= ngham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
=
My position is still best summarised here:
=C2=A0 https://mnot.github.io/I-D/discussion-rechart= er/

Ah, I've read this draft before= , and I agree with what it says, as far as it goes.

I'll think about combining this and R. Wilton's ideas.
=
thanks,
Rob


=C2=A0
> On 8 Apr 2021, at 4:23 am, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 6:41 AM Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net> wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2021, at 19:23, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>
> I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after commu= nity consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying &q= uot;IESG, you might want to look at this..."?
>
> Yep, that's on the list in the charter:
> - Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the = work.
> Nonetheless, I think the IESG would appreciate a draft to look at.
>
>
> I don't feel the need to drive here. If Mark wants to, that's = fine with me. This problem seems to be a bit of a hot potato.
>
> But I'll put on my flame-retardant pants and write the I-D if nece= ssary. :)
>
> thanks,
> Rob
>

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--000000000000e7d12605bf6ae320-- From nobody Wed Apr 7 22:02:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476523A3962 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 22:02:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.82 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.82 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=UQzJ5sH0; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=SNFwQYKy Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VVXkh0XPYMhr for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 22:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3D3C3A3961 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 22:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841BC5C010E; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 01:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 08 Apr 2021 01:02:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=Q 0tO9/Lry3a+gRYRVv0eQgt088cxCDXmx9SE63a2YdY=; b=UQzJ5sH0fUD67AfM4 aqHY0qLVC0aj9i8NcXEhKZO2Gm0V0ENg3XtyNCPdrvraSPU5qV9BeM994lglsuMM HnJGbLeSo56Gem3KsaZuW9bJ9HXOGpi5Wqtv8GubWGwAF0ilGgb/dBGUYW03HKg3 CKesYVJg5EtExt5JAnZhK3gr5zpw241uEioOCEkg+VLJvwR8j77rdO9uV2Sh1aPP keP8Szesez6utrPSyhyhXmzEzF5roUjVwglNLfFVg+8RZrm2t7PUj2Rauf+gUTs2 xxjWVy1F7Bky9vRVBRffgltFlJxZNjx4DELwXpEJnRYCXrHl7we15IlfTAcu9qVN 1g9ow== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=Q0tO9/Lry3a+gRYRVv0eQgt088cxCDXmx9SE63a2Y dY=; b=SNFwQYKy9q2pmaJ7wH6BlDTF49iRMYUUadkgMZ2wG+zif5geu2ypzYaPY x2Jn25NTJ+VTgxwDQEs3KNG+Yiw1Dv2pUPlXjZnzPauHIXSZxfYAqbo/5v/VC7UP F33QGtK/sET0RmrSY9WoLtCEbz1K1rk14C08HQHfvL5/XUzNTbtfUVK+t00VT0zd p6vIGyAIMH6OleBlbwEKp5SbvCG5Aku/29MFJ99GLDi8YUg9Kqd6NloXjVcjCMJa 0f9VISd3nmN+cVi1iPojbWDK0BKGyKBdjUt4zWemj5lM/UuHFqmlohCxrw4SEeW1 725VsRQNGkyi61RV3yo0dRBiMhC+A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudejkedgleduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutdehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueet teenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvd ehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehm nhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7537424005A; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 01:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 15:02:20 +1000 Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> To: Tony Rutkowski X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 05:02:36 -0000 Tony, At the risk of going wildly off-topic, I feel compelled to respond with = my perspective. > On 8 Apr 2021, at 2:35 am, Tony Rutkowski = wrote: >=20 > Having watched dozens of standards bodies like the IETF try to assess = themselves for the past forty plus years - generally not well - this = list seems to follow the norm. There are a relative handful of people = on this list, and the participation is highly skewed. 3/4 of the posts = are from just 21 people who are almost all insiders perpetuating status. = =20 If you want to make a claim like 'insiders perpetuating status', please = support it; on the face, it seems more rhetorical than factual. > Perhaps the most significant issue facing the IETF was raised by Phil = on 31 March - namely that the lack of transparency of interest is an = increasing challenge to the organisation I don't agree that it's the most significant issue, by a long shot. As = Kieth says, the ability for people to act as individuals here is a = feature, not a bug. Furthermore, the cultural issues we're experiencing = eclipse that issue easily. > - especially with anticompetitive behavior becoming the subject of = regulatory scrutiny and litigation. =20 You seem to be claiming that the IETF's policy of individual = participation, rather than company representation, is inadequate to = prevent anti-competitive behaviour -- specifically the kinds that are = currently under investigation, as widely reported in the news -- and = therefore the IETF is somehow potentially liable. This connection is = worth digging into, because this is not the first attempt to leverage = the current headlines about competition law activity to argue for change = in SDOs (see recent discussions in the W3C, for example). EU and US competition law (statutory and case) as well as regulatory = guidance documents have a lot to say about standards bodies regarding = cartel behaviour (e.g., exclusion, price fixing). They also extensively = cover abuse of dominance regarding IPR (patent ambush / = standard-essential patents). However, they have very little to say (to = date) regarding other forms of abuse of dominance in connection with = SDOs -- and that's the focus of the activity that you reference. So it's not yet clear what the relationship of standards bodies to these = abuses should be. In particular, while personally I'd argue that = standards are a factor that a competition regulator should take into = account when considering this type of enforcement action, it isn't yet = established that something becoming a standard offers any defence for = abuse of dominance. Furthermore, a _responsibility_ for SDOs (and other = horizontal agreements) to prevent these other theories of abuse has not = been established.=20 Given that, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that it would be premature = for the IETF (or any other SDO) to reconfigure itself or change = participation rules in reaction to these mere complaints (which may be = resolved by courts in a variety of ways) and in absence of specific = guidance from competition regulators. Instead, I'd very much like to see = the IETF (and the W3C) enter into a dialogue with competition regulators = to see if we can identify the attributes that they might find useful in = standards and standards processes in making such determinations. But ignoring all of that, let's say that Google (using them only as an = example, since they're one of the focal points in these discussions) = employees make some proposals without identifying themselves as such, = and somehow no one notices that a) they come from Google, and b) they = advantage Google over its competitors in a relevant market (noting that = there's some latitude in how the effected market is connected to their = power) without resorting to IPR abuse. I'd argue that the IETF's lack of recognition for affiliation at worst = has no effect on the outcome, and may even balance _against_ abuse of = dominance in this circumstance. This is because proposals need to gain a = rough consensus of all participants based upon technical merit (_not_ = straight up/down voting), without regard to affiliation. Adding = affiliation would only marginally increase visibility for any ex post = enforcement action; if the process is properly run, it should not have = great effect on the standards outcome itself. Of much greater concern would be a potential abuse of dominance with = effect upon a market that isn't well-represented in the IETF -- an issue = which we tried to raise in RFC8890. Even then, linking the abusive = effect to the market where the standard is operative could be quite = problematic. > The metrics of this list underscores the challenge - the principal = proponents and decision shapers/makers lack attribution. While your metric of attribution on this list is interesting, your claim = about the leadership is simply not true; the IAB and IESG identify their = members' affiliations on their respective home pages, and the NOMCOM is = known to affiliation into account when selecting nominees. WG Chairs are = selected with affiliation in mind and widely known, in my experience. = Furthermore, proposals in the form of Internet-Drafts carry affiliation = information; for example, it was very obvious and widely known that QUIC = was a proposal from Google. > During Steve Lukasik's last years, he viewed the IETF as one of his = principal failures. It was a great idea when he signed off on its = initial precursor formation to get out-of-the-box collaboration among = the researchers that DARPA was funding. Attribution as well as = collaboration incentives existed through the funding mechanisms. = However, when it was cut loose in the 1990s, any sense of attribution of = individual contributors and decision shapers was lost. As Phil notes, = it opened the door was opened for all kinds of mischief; and in contrast = to almost all other standards bodies, the IETF is alone in avoiding = attribution. Getting the LLC to buy more liability insurance has its = limits. >=20 > The IETF's diversity challenge is also tied into the lack of = transparency. If you crunch the numbers and examine how relatively few = registrants for IETF meetings continue their participation, the = organization is effectively self-distilling around a set of hardy = perennials who are motivated by un-attributed factors to stick with the = organization to pursue some obscure objectives. Indeed, the IETF's = substantial insularity and institutional self-aggrandisement coupled = with a set of rapidly evolving technologies progressed in other far more = active and effective bodies, does not bode well. Again, 'substantial insularity and institutional self-aggrandisement' = seems more rhetorical than a basis for useful discussion. > So all of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse = list is probably a good thing. --tony r=20 That is a *huge* leap -- can you show us your workings? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Apr 7 23:06:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7DA33A3B4D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 23:06:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWdP-vGZtRMW for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 23:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80E233A3B46 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 23:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id v26so992527iox.11 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 23:06:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OzdP4nanvpRJlIPs0DLKTyLIiZ8gdeu5yrowep4J7KE=; b=Ifh+vv/89lCuQWGxo9iu1NH4XX8K+DU3mRZa1DbipPF0n4cMubDsV0jYPebCrdzd1D AL1GArq5MxSjrVUDoT9iM8wE6t+NOzX93XyqSk/exmJUJX/oDUg7KyGWGpRSut6+qgCa 3siAX6w0d/yqx1THxtPs8P1v/s9x7v/W/WRItDnwubzvE9ZLuLlLYGAwN0yaE8ZUgtm1 sbadq2VISw5dAAG9k5+1JhoFELBfony8Coj43DFSoIEDiuckyK6lpBR2+DBJYNN8VhkV 4C5C5HXGhSBj9ws3iXTu4onfnLhIUIfuAsmmCSezKgBw/iAFc8ovtpozQA5Bi0Eci6ix g9KQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OzdP4nanvpRJlIPs0DLKTyLIiZ8gdeu5yrowep4J7KE=; b=bdzjTmVZasP61mvrkOmv1o0NfNT17VrucPcem+WqTdKQ37aIaqYpgSfdYaCcLuWSMj aDie/8hbX7oX4Ut47zOkCe3PQIc9rrRt4V9G991Xzja57V+OOwUnNthWIpIqlSdRdS1c JAQIo7KnA7u6bFwQFxvqEYvz5k1ytEMQrQucKS/f06JS/iohlp3B/KrWqR516//CbYmI 9KyrybJy1emMe5JeHB9dsc3LBz6c96fFRg9wdZDgHV6oZ4ggVG8Nlct2GFyksbN2kcaC XFKp53q6ncNBy0rthTWXm+7AMEPfS1fZB3POVNQ0vXTl8P6bsaK+JE/ibAgXx1fc3cti Wgyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531wouw7T29OCD6+fkMKxUdRbeYAZSzKJMTVNHhYL8Q7DvfKxWIr 0qCbGWyq3yhWJKkb46MGE8ywdUaTShV3Y9j7zfQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbxDdjZtsMhhTK/o8PspUwTegjFg8D0vo4VowCKhldo+tTf3tz1jIBnQj+UkXc/m0VLDU1c7PuLo37DzBuXsM= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:89d9:: with SMTP id a25mr5494744iot.69.1617861967592; Wed, 07 Apr 2021 23:06:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 23:05:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Tony Rutkowski , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dfbf0c05bf6fd700" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 06:06:14 -0000 --000000000000dfbf0c05bf6fd700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 10:02 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 8 Apr 2021, at 2:35 am, Tony Rutkowski > wrote: > > > > Having watched dozens of standards bodies like the IETF try to assess > themselves for the past forty plus years - generally not well - this list > seems to follow the norm. There are a relative handful of people on this > list, and the participation is highly skewed. 3/4 of the posts are from > just 21 people who are almost all insiders perpetuating status. > > If you want to make a claim like 'insiders perpetuating status', please > support it; on the face, it seems more rhetorical than factual. > Seems like a strange claim, indeed. I don't even know what that "status" would be. For my part, I just have my email client ignore anyone that is a pain, and I don't work for anyone. :) thanks, Rob --000000000000dfbf0c05bf6fd700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 10:02 PM Mark Nott= ingham <mnot@mnot.net= > wrote:
> On 8 Apr 2021, at 2:35 am, Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com> wrot= e:
>
> Having watched dozens of standards bodies like the IETF try to assess = themselves for the past forty plus years - generally not well - this list s= eems to follow the norm.=C2=A0 There are a relative handful of people on th= is list, and the participation is highly skewed.=C2=A0 3/4 of the posts are= from just 21 people who are almost all insiders perpetuating status.=C2=A0=

If you want to make a claim like 'insiders perpetuating status', pl= ease support it; on the face, it seems more rhetorical than factual.

Seems like a strange claim, indeed. I don'= ;t even know what that "status" would be. For my part, I just hav= e my email client ignore anyone that is a pain, and I don't work for an= yone. :)

thanks,
Rob

--000000000000dfbf0c05bf6fd700-- From nobody Thu Apr 8 05:05:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37AED3A1450 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:05:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tcdud.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQjk_9dv-FxW for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2102.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F73D3A145C for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:05:48 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=R8Ht19n9f30fp3ZCESOClxem3a0pi/LIa78b1Tm+4Dv/RApTjgRL4wHkFgUP46jAUagrpRDz8GXcHyeomiEPORn1JBWX87M6Xfnz1tRmPNhjWCNGzawvOHUFhKGhQC74onQ0UAbHbW1XhV5APWlu0pi+c8RLTKNMYn3ZsOqRKyCb3Ib4TesDaJJJjgMhg7llSMi+WhHfkwa5pXDWSbhgHdtfkaERkt91gU2PXfyKWikNy1IB8mLmn0ff14wFeaSDIKcZ3J3q9uX4Wuw8F3hfg0jc5RzlGjccwsGbdC95nM5DALFU2k4/Ch9R6SPl91UBndmuO+rZMtm3dxQn1JTy8Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=89SDPZxFeeSqpw+bi1Vpyjk6mIdmaC14xcSZB/JB8i0=; b=HfsKI4zETakRTrocTRtjGkqu5nZkhuCQ4r5WZ2JL5pg6rj8IaOfE6wTSByhx8sYuPLQRFT9K7HlTmKuUejA8kOTZo+hs7QjVKXgv7DJM577MM6TGp4OtbSPv0vJ8KRAh+0HR9od0QeGX4uzv+qhEKC7cSXbVVZgvZtZeSg5YiHAbyszRRJrI8EnMB7G86TuT54aNfq7XAxtny6JwQgN25XDn2ibfiTOQVk8jcj2+ujBZFfR4FUBQmM5fbadyLynT+5nGrnU0GxHv3De0mcmf9gYeBtjPcBJDeAy4B5FWJeH1D04E3NQ9ZVabifWEKNHYsaR5SSnjZJeU5fEijuCEJw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=TCDUD.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-TCDUD-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=89SDPZxFeeSqpw+bi1Vpyjk6mIdmaC14xcSZB/JB8i0=; b=cMBbFqldTIRslwUKDvAeZRBBfPWrZDH8ZrtntabFOIcH0hvJESeE5WAPRMBw/JVXSfSf+L2StJXxOGzxSWF6StBCImNKyrLRKlyE/mrbEM+wfr6Od6RO7x5O1cIW9fLphY4beA85hKTlpFB5h5t3RongFW1c2Wil7YNMVQ1I3UE= Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR0201MB2085.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:44::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4020.17; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 12:05:45 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3999.033; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 12:05:45 +0000 To: Mark Nottingham , Tony Rutkowski Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <5e41c83c-c750-4ce0-5bef-05e16fc184f5@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:05:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YEFee8VJPTm3ufKZ7vGdOMgEQHy09gKw1" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:3897:3e66:909e:c58e] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR07CA0089.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2b::27) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:3897:3e66:909e:c58e] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:3897:3e66:909e:c58e) by DB6PR07CA0089.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2b::27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4042.6 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 12:05:44 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: b4e3b098-28b5-49dd-657c-08d8fa86a391 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR0201MB2085: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:164; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(39860400002)(376002)(366004)(346002)(396003)(136003)(8936002)(8676002)(6486002)(2906002)(66946007)(36756003)(86362001)(21480400003)(66556008)(5660300002)(66616009)(66476007)(235185007)(31696002)(186003)(16526019)(44832011)(478600001)(38100700001)(786003)(2616005)(316002)(564344004)(31686004)(4326008)(33964004)(83380400001)(110136005)(53546011)(52116002)(45080400002)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?NjgwZUcxMkVpM1RKd05SQ3ladjFqbkFoTnQwK1lBaklDRjk4MTJrZTdFRDNy?= =?utf-8?B?NGpyWWRKaFhrUkJBaVJnTklud3kyT2lGRzJYc2NBMFROZHk5MFVzODliaHcr?= =?utf-8?B?aUREdWJTU3FmOUUrRmUvczY5bXlaWVYxSDcveXNTSElib3g2aW5SRVo0VGx0?= =?utf-8?B?OWtJUDNqK3FBamNFVGsxamxOOTNMV3JzdjRhQm1ucXFxMTh2Rmxnak13bVFE?= =?utf-8?B?N3pMNEl0Z1VTOS82RmZCNjIvbGhqOEt2aSt2T2dGZzIzazlhZlc4NDJZL0RT?= =?utf-8?B?Ukh5S2RYM1haditwZTcyVEsvNGdFeDkvM1EwSTFMdVpEWUdhZXR1VXNpNnhJ?= =?utf-8?B?K003ZmZ1K3VLK3F5YVowNDE1b1orN0J6UUptYzFsMTRWZnQwQUJONmpSOC9H?= =?utf-8?B?endFVEFucFBNeGwyOWJyNUNZTThqVCtObCtUckdFRk0yVk9CNTNlTWRZMjBx?= =?utf-8?B?RVhpYTM1Tkw0NnkvTDU0YW80MW9ZT1RsVlRDQTI0bG1hTEFYWmVDOVdpNDRs?= =?utf-8?B?anp5Qk9ZQWJaR2p5Zi9nZVNVZHI1WEdQS1MzVzk2WDJIUTVJc1BUY2xKSW1O?= =?utf-8?B?bTJsTkdZNWZ1cFpqVjFYS1hMQnV1UHBiSGZhTjJjazJnNk16dWkyQUVObzQx?= =?utf-8?B?dmN2azR1ZlFCTmY1aDBRV3dvaGZIL2xFWDNqMkxybUxQRS9POFI0MWFaZlhS?= =?utf-8?B?Vk9LWjVhK3VPMGd2NEtTTUZSTExUOXltSTNNZmU1STNPTXQ5UXEzK29sdGhq?= =?utf-8?B?WHNaQnQyc2ljSFBrQkVWR2hubEZSeWhsVS9ZOHY5YTkxU3VyVmg1QU1ZOTBP?= =?utf-8?B?bWtUUlI0Z25rVi92c3hRTU1YMFZkdUNtMStkOUpZcnMyS200eG5acXJ2M0dD?= =?utf-8?B?dVEyUjZoL2J3SHFkeUg4NUU3anVhZ2hqTDh3VWQvZTRzRWpSWHh5ZnZvcC9m?= =?utf-8?B?THRqY25TSW9OclAvbGhNYjZkY0ZCZEx0enl6T3NwTFJKUitaZW9ld3VrdEsx?= =?utf-8?B?WUhJejY5c1Yya3Y1d0F4NStMK1A2K0IreUEwTG5DV1Z1WFhZcUVydW5BeXlW?= =?utf-8?B?U2RUUDArUzdYWFY4Z29Bd1Z1aHZiV2xWdWc4S2JtRmVHRm5RQ0xRT1pTOFll?= =?utf-8?B?bVJtMlIwZC9ieHlscHF0V1BkUEQ3TE5sYkR0S3hsTHRiZzgxeGlSMW1ublVY?= =?utf-8?B?c1FKWmVjL3RGR2o0SWozcm9VWUFyaENnbkNaUHc0VzRWWk8wTzdkVnBtazFh?= =?utf-8?B?bmVlK1R3QThPUDJDKy9aQjdUOHdndVRMdm5qVmNTYjZqMWhpaHdOSTIvZU16?= =?utf-8?B?L3NhMEM4NkdBNVorTTZCMk9rVEFxTDU1UE9QM1BZZXRRZ244MnN0SW1TbndY?= =?utf-8?B?L0M2YmRUUDkxNGRqM1JQUDBSVWRDNEdEZVBMTm0ySnMvUDJ4ZGZvZGE4RkJZ?= =?utf-8?B?eUxic2FtVWtBbzNQUFpyVllaVE11aHN1ckxnNlRtZ0xxdW9xc2dNamdmMTUz?= =?utf-8?B?YVpFSTNpMFVheFZNVnJRQWZ6empsNmxtaG53UzZuTnRvcmxyMldCSkQwZTJP?= =?utf-8?B?eEkyQmcrM1NNTjlHeUxxVFM0NzlmSTlnbGpIYktveTFzWXo2OHlveTg1anNZ?= =?utf-8?B?Mi9KSUtoemx5Y2VjaWw5UE1ZMVMvYTZYb0gyL2JDNjJHeWRMRzBmN0dMSVNh?= =?utf-8?B?MVVLbXo1ZWNHUTdsdW1WTE1hNHY4cytWdThJT2k3N09OZkZ3TFpNOXlqdHd3?= =?utf-8?B?WmZIWk1tb0YxbFdkVW9odkhqNjc2bGVZU01qcy93bTFRQlZ5ZmlkbDFxVWJU?= =?utf-8?B?TGZtWDJBWU5vWU1lR1BIVnIxalNwbHg4TXptSFk3UWhhSTlaYzdBdVRuK292?= =?utf-8?Q?4x41oxzyQUq8z?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b4e3b098-28b5-49dd-657c-08d8fa86a391 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Apr 2021 12:05:45.1250 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: QMJxZDkkLN3A6UWw/1ogavC6VWkq7Ct2WH8JlPgcWNOK9JklfLjGZFElF8VbcBPq X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0201MB2085 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 12:05:52 -0000 --YEFee8VJPTm3ufKZ7vGdOMgEQHy09gKw1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="2CXA32HnU2LjNFBci7IfK0anaUd9bd1R4"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Mark Nottingham , Tony Rutkowski Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <5e41c83c-c750-4ce0-5bef-05e16fc184f5@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --2CXA32HnU2LjNFBci7IfK0anaUd9bd1R4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7D5BD649330A17CB54A10E94" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7D5BD649330A17CB54A10E94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08/04/2021 06:02, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Tony, >=20 > At the risk of going wildly off-topic, I feel compelled to respond with= my perspective. Well said. Thanks, S. --------------7D5BD649330A17CB54A10E94 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------7D5BD649330A17CB54A10E94-- --2CXA32HnU2LjNFBci7IfK0anaUd9bd1R4-- --YEFee8VJPTm3ufKZ7vGdOMgEQHy09gKw1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmBu8ZcFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qz TxAAtjQL9NgGuBUbPqb4Z6D8EeXtBKV6L9Boe/7rLdIuyPOI/AhdmB4mMIIjaF/mNIKnI/AqVGvH fZx+l1QHXCENb6pqePxfkoiXN05J6VdLOohZSCfH6plQ7i90bU1HLQmjiGa3VcYInffOAWOn8EWJ cfBMMCh3W8gs8hedc1Q248Vth6ucrviQrvpRFmvC759xZpILlFKidCVsxpJgZUFTxYhUxKx9Hsdb 4kR4f+afp9buD/vXahVtqIzmJDv7URWMRfD4VMm6pCQKQhE+0yz3t7k7Win+/QW+2/0ZL678tgDv CjKNchQqznzAPHqf+/1mRZ+weABzxy25/InzrMhJZVpQBHHOUflJYvddgA8pKbvlRm1We5BRjvaV XG9Vczpof1ShMsXfKNlzqUDymmijtDE7G0yuHDYvl9wM4jr5Ah+ujTwoILAuc8XH6J9i+jRMOwKP ZgsOFEnI802GAZLr532fj4JFWkrPue2L2vkuVg1hEC6qfud/n97EQU3F+n6G6Z5amxOMwkduEE/n oJABHYxgHRSCaE6DaPsmeAuwsLU70VH97fMaWlFBkl5FEGcnE2hln040vSm8PA6cIjgQYc+BoZRl fejz4XulgNyn+4p0ttkmwav4YSColJmvDEiTTPb7m6F1lQWwM3NVf1HCpb7c99cstBWAe0Is0z/N vuc= =0U0F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YEFee8VJPTm3ufKZ7vGdOMgEQHy09gKw1-- From nobody Thu Apr 8 17:01:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21143A226F for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 17:01:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L4XQVD9YLV9A for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 17:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2888C3A226E for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 17:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id 7so1632767ilz.0 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 17:01:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xAGIDdLtPGaV9aREopiGesi1MQxWyoXsxG0SYwGTfXc=; b=BaYQC5I0iCIczz01XSA0lz+hFZU7cW4owpJO6THw6FUd/W2NWIOsAq9lukW0L7Pcs+ iqYCl3n81KCIyjWtF+3BssLo+XjWDIttdfPCbGBfz80TfpnNwJbx0hRU22Zj8EbInvtP RjiRK1XWg0Y+CWblQEVq92OpS5DqDXUJLZ1f/Tr4uV5dCmAYRUIuu1ANCkN6a24SGpv0 gmA9rq4vstZRdsoC/Ts/VI5c4AIw/4SW+N3NxZvOgte/UYQ0xiyZFOiaUINaj2zNvf9D 88qFnJ3KjOUhbN4jtqrgAH7jLbtdrvIg6iyubeH7APXuGNOvS4qP57Be0mP22T46Ipuh 7psQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xAGIDdLtPGaV9aREopiGesi1MQxWyoXsxG0SYwGTfXc=; b=BiFKZ/dDqoNhhD52UuLESPszkrcdbUDo1x1pDcZqE0sSBQ4FcR+pD5EZLBurwFRrhO iBBwp250edQgQZxdXVU0vXAkIyerR1IEpwFmixZxe6+2SPRKfB76H/D0zbv5nKHnNaP+ JEl9jTBLz49ZjbppUtnVFSnuZ/PolT0g6xaCZ5ql0XPmDJ+ZhSuj4atM+8vZPXLjHNfv JyGkrNTrKWH8oygTbGEHr3SbUonn3KileLP/Hsk77uGHxU5hukfRUxyUAlohNV4nPXlD tk9LuEaCp38lWzu/4ZY22BPDH5PvZFY861ZPdCJiMsg9nvlq+fTNr6p67lFZsuH+ohLw YtsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533XN2KYiLzP9DRkUtnCFCO8Q8B7MlKHvCULIWVgSD40SRJpoJd2 /O+0nKaxs/KFz6sFEKOtkSPvOaJq1l/SR2DvzDc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVKjA+/q9Dz93LijepoaVVueh/BJv/M9+zFTXb/t53PBaD7LLJGcZAgeLCjNy3L9QAjOza07ZpEUJsSP+eexI= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d68c:: with SMTP id p12mr9319040iln.73.1617926461595; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 17:01:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <61B3D1AF-235A-4C12-87E5-9584E549AA5F@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 17:00:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Pete Resnick , gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000004244105bf7edc2c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the dispatch question X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:01:08 -0000 --00000000000004244105bf7edc2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I looked into this a bit more, and re-read RFC 3005 (which does not seem to be being followed). Mark's draft is useful, and correctly describes many issues, but I think a document that obsoletes RFC 3005 is what's required. I wrote this as a first draft: ## Charter for the General IETF Mailing List The general IETF mailing list, ietf@ietf.org, exists to communicate the activities of the IETF as a whole. While discussion is permitted, the list is not intended to host lengthy discussions on any topic. As this is the most general IETF mailing list, participants SHOULD first seek more appropriate venues before sending a message. If that effort fails, asking questions about where or how to address an issue is OK. The general IETF list also distributes brief summaries from related organizations, such as the IESG, IAB, ISE, the RFC Editor, and the IETF Administrative function. These updates SHOULD contain recommendations on the correct venue for discussion. Other lists, such as i-d-announce@ietf.org and ietf-announce@ietf.org contain more detailed records, such as specific dates for interim WG meetings. Advertising, whether to solicit business or promote employment opportunities, falls well outside the range of acceptable topics, as do discussions of a personal nature. ## Charter for ietf-misc-discuss@ietf.org Historically, the general IETF list allowed more free-flowing discussion. In order to respect the time of the IETF's many participants, these discussions now reside at ietf-misc-discuss@ietf.org. This list furthers the development and specification of Internet technology through discussion of technical issues. It also hosts discussions of IETF direction, policy, meetings, and procedures. As this is the IETF mailing list with the most general charter, considerable latitude is allowed. [...recommendations from Mark's draft...] Advertising, whether to solicit business or promote employment opportunities, falls well outside the range of acceptable topics, as do discussions of a personal nature. ## Obsoleting RFC 3005 Since RFC 3005 does not distinguish between ietf@ietf.org and ietf-misc-discuss@ietf.org, there must be a process that creates the distinction. The policies outlined above for ietf@ietf.org will become effective when this draft becomes a BCP. Participants will not be automatically subscribed to ietf-misc-discuss@ietf.org, but the IETF Chair will post a notification when this change policy becomes effective, and will do so on a montly basis for six months. thanks, Rob On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:11 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:07 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> My position is still best summarised here: >> https://mnot.github.io/I-D/discussion-recharter/ > > > Ah, I've read this draft before, and I agree with what it says, as far as > it goes. > > I'll think about combining this and R. Wilton's ideas. > > thanks, > Rob > > > > >> > On 8 Apr 2021, at 4:23 am, Rob Sayre wrote: >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 6:41 AM Pete Resnick >> wrote: >> > On 6 Apr 2021, at 19:23, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> > >> > I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after community >> consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying "IESG, >> you might want to look at this..."? >> > >> > Yep, that's on the list in the charter: >> > - Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the >> work. >> > Nonetheless, I think the IESG would appreciate a draft to look at. >> > >> > >> > I don't feel the need to drive here. If Mark wants to, that's fine with >> me. This problem seems to be a bit of a hot potato. >> > >> > But I'll put on my flame-retardant pants and write the I-D if >> necessary. :) >> > >> > thanks, >> > Rob >> > >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> --00000000000004244105bf7edc2c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I looked into this a bit more, and re-read RFC 3005 (which= does not seem to be being followed). Mark's draft is useful, and corre= ctly=C2=A0describes=C2=A0many issues, but I think a document that obsoletes= RFC 3005 is what's required.

I wrote this as a firs= t=C2=A0draft:


## Charter for the Ge= neral IETF Mailing List

The general IETF mailing list, ietf@ietf.org, exists to communicate the activities= of the IETF as a whole. While discussion is permitted, the list is not int= ended to host lengthy discussions on any topic. As this is the most general= IETF mailing list, participants SHOULD first seek more appropriate venues = before sending a message. If that effort fails, asking questions about wher= e or how to address an issue is OK.

The general IETF list also distr= ibutes brief summaries from related organizations, such as the IESG, IAB, I= SE, the RFC Editor, and the IETF Administrative function. These updates SHO= ULD contain recommendations on the correct venue for discussion. Other list= s, such as i-d-announce@ietf.org and ietf-announce@ietf.org= contain more detailed records, such as specific dates for interim WG meeti= ngs.

Advertising, whether to solicit business or promote employment = opportunities, falls well outside the range of acceptable topics, as do dis= cussions of a personal nature.

## Charter for ietf-misc-discuss@ietf.org

Historically,= the general IETF list allowed more free-flowing discussion. In order to re= spect the time of the IETF's many participants, these discussions now r= eside at ietf-misc-discuss@ie= tf.org. This list furthers the development and specification of Interne= t technology through discussion of technical issues. It also hosts discussi= ons of IETF direction, policy, meetings, and procedures. As this is the IET= F mailing list with the most general charter, considerable latitude is allo= wed. [...recommendations from Mark's draft...]

Advertising, whet= her to solicit business or promote employment opportunities, falls well out= side the range of acceptable topics, as do discussions of a personal nature= .

## Obsoleting RFC 3005

Since RFC 3005 does not distinguish = between ietf@ietf.org and ietf-misc-discuss@ietf.org, there mus= t be a process that creates the distinction. The policies outlined above fo= r ietf@ietf.org will become effective = when this draft becomes a BCP. Participants will not be automatically subsc= ribed to ietf-misc-discuss@ie= tf.org, but the IETF Chair will post a notification when this change po= licy becomes effective, and will do so on a montly basis for six months.


thanks,
Rob
<= br>

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:11 PM Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:07 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
My position is still best summarised here:
=C2=A0 https://mnot.github.io/I-D/discussion-rechart= er/

Ah, I've read this draft before= , and I agree with what it says, as far as it goes.

I'll think about combining this and R. Wilton's ideas.
=
thanks,
Rob


=C2=A0
> On 8 Apr 2021, at 4:23 am, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 6:41 AM Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net> wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2021, at 19:23, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>
> I'd observe that last-call@ was introduced by the IESG after commu= nity consultation. Is that a potential path for dispatch -- i.e., saying &q= uot;IESG, you might want to look at this..."?
>
> Yep, that's on the list in the charter:
> - Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the = work.
> Nonetheless, I think the IESG would appreciate a draft to look at.
>
>
> I don't feel the need to drive here. If Mark wants to, that's = fine with me. This problem seems to be a bit of a hot potato.
>
> But I'll put on my flame-retardant pants and write the I-D if nece= ssary. :)
>
> thanks,
> Rob
>

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--00000000000004244105bf7edc2c-- From nobody Thu Apr 8 17:16:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03DB3A22F4 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 17:16:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rvEsXgbSeZGN for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EFB33A22F5 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id a11so2057563ioo.0 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ykj3soAb4hWPFeOWuEL48GCg4aHlJmnDXT+yOYgO7j4=; b=OvgX/1HS3sb7jAQV9SsrA20BE59CDI9rPig1m78vObfc3TYF9FIftIpzEeN87CUKXF AYeNbM84Qhd0/vvWGNUdZ8uu1Yi4B/hO7O9pWkRo0Q+eLBZPLaveCncapS2V2tjn0ETR ZKdYGme7wcBESPBFfTQHTdWfMrAE3kD+X9Ja6DHdmV+J9p/paK3WG/xBMnH2TqK6cLLA yTKrSOX+tSwtMAf0flnCEORTfscxML+FPw4mKfxtPp5DXiIWFMDbfVxvJyhhTmIZIMnJ ISnGI6R+oscZY5fiZiX8PcSrA7fxvj4FiusvOq5uS8jfto9bp5TyY5aMM0CGQydgn1Xw AvCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ykj3soAb4hWPFeOWuEL48GCg4aHlJmnDXT+yOYgO7j4=; b=UXoTU8Nus+cJpSPgAYsWkdCPlPtzFg2QpWkP2QeuEYPlBTHgr4T8nD81+AUtuy+5mH LHoJGToOTFXwR1BqjbS0rm8EijnXtNSrmIL5dIFC8bsB3M1XK7B46O1dK22RtcqaRhUz RRUu0opD+vMms9qB5bHU9rtDw7mLl8Ljmq2lXqtUHRLL7/yn1crQpi3/trpiMPe44vKy hSys+WdFhZMKh7mwGU7P8mCkH8pW/FbVEga6piyejTJEjsHZ1IPZu7nLe0G0NuNIER24 GSvyIqAIFaK3tj9aZxpTTIvUvZLYL7/szXn4uWOq0fjIrFbz+VogL4DpUGcLlkiDCD2b Umbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530mj2wV1PENwX8TdnAlQf8Oq6BqBruvZRPkY3G1DGKK+4JQ3foQ S1tLd8yYPoAbG2+hbghgqF6R9x355TBUN5OEobs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz0nLF3stippC8VjR/BiTT5XKlF5+u16mVFjnXYLwn4TGTDWWaD+012EIIJ1OGx8k7eThhNpCwsXwwUxoWuMlw= X-Received: by 2002:a02:caac:: with SMTP id e12mr841878jap.131.1617927380668; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 17:16:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <61B3D1AF-235A-4C12-87E5-9584E549AA5F@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 17:16:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Pete Resnick , gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cc15b805bf7f12aa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the dispatch question X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:16:27 -0000 --000000000000cc15b805bf7f12aa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 5:00 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > the IETF Chair will post a notification when this change policy becomes > effective, and will do so on a montly basis for six months. > Oof, messy last sentence. Should be: "...when this change [in] policy becomes effective, and will do so on a mont[h]ly basis for six months." thanks, Rob --000000000000cc15b805bf7f12aa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 5:00 PM Rob Sayre = <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0the IETF Chair will post a notification= when this change policy becomes effective, and will do so on a montly basi= s for six months.

Oof, messy la= st sentence. Should be:

"...when this change = [in] policy becomes effective, and will do so on a mont[h]ly basis for six = months."

thanks,
Rob

=
--000000000000cc15b805bf7f12aa-- From nobody Thu Apr 8 18:31:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166693A256D for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:31:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OJ3ii9HvZLr9 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A8DB3A2568 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id k25so4275180iob.6 for ; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 18:31:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t7Pl9kBfyDNIKooDoENRzyCc/OuxUo3eis12nTXEiN4=; b=ZqJ/13fucoa7F/iLnhB9KU7XNCDsqDhmMpW9+5vyVcz8EHFZcUARQW/9XmnrkGxIpY zqU/Umawi2HFhb0ms9mNNVx+RXp67x8fztnGUhQP30q8SotLDC8xVJpqSXtFZI9GRNQO AguH1oC7of8yIxVj/hvcxwA8L/wm90a83buSFLEgfO+0zgpTcLDrneeWynjar4SlQSxa Kfsijtq4fiVbcTmUC2Yz+SwMK7FGq2OIABvtNCuQe2WKX8430mey0uIWkxGp2/HsosEz YxiDaZhKBNsqLUu/1otMKQe4Nx6olZczh+8WI+zjrK2enP9m8edXFAqHsYNS+vifF1FV l6LA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t7Pl9kBfyDNIKooDoENRzyCc/OuxUo3eis12nTXEiN4=; b=lltJgcMp0+gwC6NoHor+IaUDJljTY0XElx3fNz9XX+T1bCB0ON5DHxH/X4QO/57yK1 CGx2gHyXBnHBwPQcqldvjFodNbvaHnEPNuz07wLNC8Yqfv/Q5tdpQ2X8gU8Wlr7MrirB O93xhvgnnM/7u35LwVne8citWuFD9+ytrDD3WP3YfJfrMiFymplfj0LOa7wv0+8FfwEg nKEJnVfnweuf+jDAu31friB+bw2bZYH5F7PcyWw/GCd5i0cIJLtNkxLfnZj1rJ3DsSzb Of3AvLa/w6iMtblRjLUJyGkF7v7kD+UZM9jeoQPqS2ye6uIQm1Q8NW9Zv1xzopW515M+ qBYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532wI56xAfGesXg49qY1P858OwBQZylIhkCv1uJdAgpHy2UXQS54 27Ow38t/97jOIe22UJU7rUGTqcbQObDTx2HJud0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwDfdWmDYDEV5HJkafeMRkA8F4KzdyLvEoKkl6eHE5Y6SdCNXLhWfhuTpYtQ19djwz1CqWa+bQKEN3XGNM8HhQ= X-Received: by 2002:a02:caac:: with SMTP id e12mr1109869jap.131.1617931877991; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 18:31:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <61B3D1AF-235A-4C12-87E5-9584E549AA5F@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:31:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Pete Resnick , gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dbc61c05bf801ed1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Ending ietf@ietf.org <-- the dispatch question X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 01:31:22 -0000 --000000000000dbc61c05bf801ed1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 5:00 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > I looked into this a bit more, and re-read RFC 3005 (which does not seem > to be being followed). Mark's draft is useful, and correctly describes many > issues, but I think a document that obsoletes RFC 3005 is what's required. > > I wrote this as a first draft: > Well, I definitely got some off-list feedback about this one. I'll write it up as a real I-D (fixing the typos), and then let the chairs decide what happens next. A lot of the feedback was negative, which I think is fine. That means the text is at least addressing issues people care about. thanks, Rob --000000000000dbc61c05bf801ed1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 5:00 PM Rob Sayre = <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
=
I looked into this a bit more, and re-read RFC 300= 5 (which does not seem to be being followed). Mark's draft is useful, a= nd correctly=C2=A0describes=C2=A0many issues, but I think a document that o= bsoletes RFC 3005 is what's required.

I wrote this a= s a first=C2=A0draft:

Well, I d= efinitely got some off-list feedback about this one. I'll write it up a= s a real I-D (fixing the typos), and then let the chairs decide what happen= s next. A lot of the feedback was negative, which I think is fine. That mea= ns the text is at least addressing issues people care about.

=
thanks,
Rob
--000000000000dbc61c05bf801ed1-- From nobody Fri Apr 9 12:56:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E19233A09DF for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:56:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, MONEY_NOHTML=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GFmyphISt-Sp for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B5E33A09D8 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id c123so2245899qke.1 for ; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 12:56:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=x0F6TrdLz5QCIgNAi3u4JgzsCBH+9EUosG2ldvcoe4M=; b=ckF2IQ7UXS4iCsrPy/xns9GMHGFrud+kUdhRSTvpYIlXm2zQ/mzeauH9c3/TGX1BEX eOaGUyLDol2kLDFNq5yx8VeX9+E1krPBxzKe2GBJO/o09UVJoseHGrvEQUkVQ5cMF/IZ XRxqilOJqLeV9Vxiiqs28zc52VsJV7xnBlpJLXOug2pOdZe2GnsNhNB+pcQCgWRmf0s6 RsHPgnclPWT8+T3KRaPlTmuWBUcAXouYc8YY0w0xkz9K8hq+vzYTITDu06hCIcT6yR+a 8GBs3izOrKq89GKH4HKnGxKgE34qx2UkMciBSCqZAzyLUlQkusEJquRHO0qnhlVZoL9X 6VCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=x0F6TrdLz5QCIgNAi3u4JgzsCBH+9EUosG2ldvcoe4M=; b=Gz/N3YT7lgnNFSV0LOLiwH6RRsRCi+PwpxTc3Y7Wcf8z2INbpbzGUPBb4cVYYGKz7g 59ywG7rkxBUmRG6WT+qC2avT6lrzirtwwNzxYBx5wsYqGrmsFxg2Q7uNzf32GXBOjSSa Sy8P6gxqye6vpJz3DoxiSnGRCA9rtLk1rWhRuU3hSCJ6z4YWFz9Qj707bi/LViaANBP8 U6FGkGHxeKQsEIuuETYE6OZL1WUoztkuFRsMgMO/QKhEvpb1rv57Jeu8L1V4m3+JybAZ EiCwX6xWjV5nS6+en05KoyPLx+qT+Hkn9iKYMVrUmlh4LuWKfAu863td2LBM8xKJ8clm LETg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532d13/8K7/QQL533JGg4onqA0cmelKLzPMIPDfX7npp/gcOCL/x IZ3vtZT+/CFP1oHkF0wgyERAReTvFCc+RQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwprODBJu3eiG2AOpr8K8LkNPrgCgon4VyedTPyAx6Gqhz4QnFupJJKUUGMDb9lTnJOr4oRRw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:152f:: with SMTP id n15mr8177217qkk.129.1617998198805; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 12:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.249] (pool-70-106-222-98.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.222.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v11sm2457133qtx.79.2021.04.09.12.56.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 12:56:38 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> From: Tony Rutkowski Message-ID: <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:56:37 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 19:56:42 -0000 Hi Mark, It was good to see a recognition that the IETF has a potentially significant antitrust exposure and willingness to increase the transparency mechanisms as a first step.  The exposure here is not new.  The first major independent analysis of the topic occurred in 1994 by an external lawfirm.  I know, because I signed the check, and then signed for the liability insurance.  Over the years and especially during the past decade, almost all significant standards bodies individually and collectively have engaged in activities to diminish the exposure and develop related sets of organisational practices.  The IETF has been largely a non-participant outlier, ignoring the problems; although the relatively recent formation of the LLC and work of legal counsel have made some improvements. The IETF has long been "easy pickings" for antitrust behaviors because of the lack of transparency and other organisational practices which enable the adoption of a IETF standards that enable a company to acquire significant market share for a product or service.  I believe there was testimony in recent litigation that an IETF specification was worth about $4 million.  Continuing participation in the IETF is very costly and the number of participants attributed to a few specific companies or (as noted by Phil H-B, unattributed operatives) at meetings is a testament to beneficiaries. The observation that the IETF's problems today extend well beyond anticompetitive behavior seems spot on.  The participant and work item metrics show that major contemporary specification development and engagement today have shifted rather massively to venues like 3GPP.  The IETF remains stagnant.  Large numbers of academics flow in and out to mine ideas and advance their academic studies.  Few companies want to pursue anything there anymore except for a comparative handful trying to leverage a few more years and dollars out of legacy technologies. The tendencies in the IETF to be abusive and intolerant - especially to people who are apostates - has unfortunately been standard practice in the IETF in the past few decades.  If you reject the religious mandates of the IETF, you are declared "off topic," or fail to get a group started, or told to go elsewhere - often in abusive ways.  The intolerant behavior is especially difficult for those in many non-Western cultures.  These are the bigger problems of the IETF. All organisations are largely incapable of analysing themselves and understanding their strengths and weakness in the larger ecosystem.  The tendency is to reject criticism - even when it is essential.  It seems worth not only maintaining a generic discourse list, but to encourage dissident and critical participation without dismissing commentarity as rhetorical and pile-on behavior.  Occasional good humour would also help. best, tony r (working as an agnostic analyst who admittedly preferred the IETF circa 1970-1992) On 08-Apr-21 1:02 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > So all of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse list is probably a good thing. --tony r > That is a *huge* leap -- can you show us your workings? > From nobody Fri Apr 9 15:11:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6523A13C3 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:11:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5bQDAnu8uUMp for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragonfly.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (dragonfly.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA84B3A13C4 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:11:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938DB121069; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 22:11:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a92.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-133-83.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.133.83]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 40D70121B2C; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 22:11:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a92.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.133.83 (trex/6.1.1); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 22:11:43 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Keen-Reign: 342c3595015d538a_1618006303392_2983820275 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1618006303391:973366423 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1618006303391 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a92.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a92.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034D38A9FB; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:11:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=luo0vnz5iU7+Ea+lTk97xTpPpPY=; b=Zkbnh8wM3h5 Q/3gbRdIS618DmUw0XA26O4FlG44sMVLgdpgAcr3dnIROrFCCwUCB5kuL5ATe40c puATwW6GJ5ETzgDLrwsiKl4wDWossQLQbvwB4TsUTET7ItQGTmvtBRptT+TNO/w+ 9wWNLvJy8XAkh1s7pc3wk0KdBorFWjw0= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a92.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CC40688409; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 17:11:36 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a92 From: Nico Williams To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20210409221135.GD9612@localhost> References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 22:11:50 -0000 On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 03:56:37PM -0400, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > The observation that the IETF's problems today extend well beyond > anticompetitive behavior seems spot on.=A0 The participant and work ite= m > metrics show that major contemporary specification development and > engagement today have shifted rather massively to venues like 3GPP.=A0 = The > IETF remains stagnant.=A0 Large numbers of academics flow in and out to= mine > ideas and advance their academic studies.=A0 Few companies want to purs= ue > anything there anymore except for a comparative handful trying to lever= age a > few more years and dollars out of legacy technologies. Maybe we should close the IETF. Those participants who think we should close the general list might well agree with that. > The tendencies in the IETF to be abusive and intolerant - especially to > people who are apostates - has unfortunately been standard practice in = the > IETF in the past few decades.=A0 If you reject the religious mandates o= f the > IETF, you are declared "off topic," or fail to get a group started, or = told > to go elsewhere - often in abusive ways.=A0 The intolerant behavior is > especially difficult for those in many non-Western cultures.=A0 These a= re the > bigger problems of the IETF. Yes. For example, forming BTNS WG was painful in that way. The new DANISH mailing list might lead to a DANISH WG, and I expect it too would run into bullying. You should see the TLS DANE extension sturm und drang of a couple of years ago -- it was awful, and it set everyone involved back quite a bit. And that's *tehcnical* disagreements. What we see in this instance is that maxim that debate is all the more acrimonious as the stakes go down. Because... nothing will change if we adopt a terminology BCP, we can and do argue the most strenuously about it. If draft-knodel-terminology were published, I'd be upset for reasons I've given (most notably that casting aspersions on the community is way over the line), but in fact nothing at all of note would change, and world peace would be as elusive as ever. It should not be surprising then that this has been the most acrimonious debate at IETF in a long time. Maybe we should all just move to OASIS and pay to have our protocols standardized without an IESG around and without much opposition because anyone who thinks something should be done differently can pay to have their variation standardized. > All organisations are largely incapable of analysing themselves and > understanding their strengths and weakness in the larger ecosystem.=A0 = The > tendency is to reject criticism - even when it is essential.=A0 It seem= s worth > not only maintaining a generic discourse list, but to encourage disside= nt > and critical participation without dismissing commentarity as rhetorica= l and > pile-on behavior.=A0 Occasional good humour would also help. Corporate and military organizations can do it, if they get lucky, because all it takes is someone at the top with the right vision, skills, and will power. We're not such an organization. We have egos in the way. Nico --=20 From nobody Fri Apr 9 16:42:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A833A174B for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 16:42:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JdYkQEXRoPVN; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 16:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1645E3A1749; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 16:42:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <5B3F15AE-CF7A-4D36-9ECB-B7340E03E1DC@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_28AEBA70-A83A-47EF-8DA3-265289F3D7FA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:42:12 +1200 In-Reply-To: <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> Cc: Mark Nottingham , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: Tony Rutkowski References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 23:42:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_28AEBA70-A83A-47EF-8DA3-265289F3D7FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 (Apologies for continuing the increasingly off-topic conversation but I = need to respond to some points here) Tony, > On 10/04/2021, at 7:56 AM, Tony Rutkowski = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mark, >=20 > It was good to see a recognition that the IETF has a potentially = significant antitrust exposure and willingness to increase the = transparency mechanisms as a first step.=20 I clearly read Mark's message very differently from you. > The exposure here is not new. The first major independent analysis of = the topic occurred in 1994 by an external lawfirm. I know, because I = signed the check, and then signed for the liability insurance. Over the = years and especially during the past decade, almost all significant = standards bodies individually and collectively have engaged in = activities to diminish the exposure and develop related sets of = organisational practices.=20 The following two sentences are a significant misrepresentation of the = true state of affairs. > The IETF has been largely a non-participant outlier, ignoring the = problems; although the relatively recent formation of the LLC and work = of legal counsel have made some improvements. >=20 > The IETF has long been "easy pickings" for antitrust behaviors because = of the lack of transparency and other organisational practices which = enable the adoption of a IETF standards that enable a company to acquire = significant market share for a product or service.=20 For a correct picture please see = https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ The tl;dr is that the following characteristics of the IETF put us in a = very strong position, quite different from many other organisations: * IETF participation is free and open to all interested individuals.=20 * Participants engage in their individual capacity, not as company = representatives.=20 * A wide range of perspectives is represented, reflecting interests from = multiple industry sectors, academia, government and non-governmental = organizations (NGOs), from around the globe.=20 * IETF procedural rules, which include robust appeal options, are = well-documented in public materials, and rigorously followed.=20 * IETF activities are conducted with extreme transparency, in public = forums.=20 * Decision-making requires achieving broad consensus via these public = processes.=20 * IETF=E2=80=99s disclosure-focused intellectual property rights = policies carefully and transparently balance the interests of standards = contributors and standards adopters.=20 * Fundamentally, =E2=80=9CIETF participants use their best engineering = judgment to find the best solution for the whole Internet, not just the = best solution for any particular network, technology, vendor, or = user.=E2=80=9D[RFC 7154] This is not to say that more could be done, and it is true that in some = cases there has been resistance to simple improvements, but that should = not be confused with the overall position. Jay > I believe there was testimony in recent litigation that an IETF = specification was worth about $4 million. Continuing participation in = the IETF is very costly and the number of participants attributed to a = few specific companies or (as noted by Phil H-B, unattributed = operatives) at meetings is a testament to beneficiaries. >=20 > The observation that the IETF's problems today extend well beyond = anticompetitive behavior seems spot on. The participant and work item = metrics show that major contemporary specification development and = engagement today have shifted rather massively to venues like 3GPP. The = IETF remains stagnant. Large numbers of academics flow in and out to = mine ideas and advance their academic studies. Few companies want to = pursue anything there anymore except for a comparative handful trying to = leverage a few more years and dollars out of legacy technologies. >=20 > The tendencies in the IETF to be abusive and intolerant - especially = to people who are apostates - has unfortunately been standard practice = in the IETF in the past few decades. If you reject the religious = mandates of the IETF, you are declared "off topic," or fail to get a = group started, or told to go elsewhere - often in abusive ways. The = intolerant behavior is especially difficult for those in many = non-Western cultures. These are the bigger problems of the IETF. >=20 > All organisations are largely incapable of analysing themselves and = understanding their strengths and weakness in the larger ecosystem. The = tendency is to reject criticism - even when it is essential. It seems = worth not only maintaining a generic discourse list, but to encourage = dissident and critical participation without dismissing commentarity as = rhetorical and pile-on behavior. Occasional good humour would also = help. >=20 > best, > tony r (working as an agnostic analyst who admittedly preferred the = IETF circa 1970-1992) >=20 >=20 > On 08-Apr-21 1:02 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> So all of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse = list is probably a good thing. --tony r >> That is a *huge* leap -- can you show us your workings? >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_28AEBA70-A83A-47EF-8DA3-265289F3D7FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 (Apologies for continuing the increasingly off-topic = conversation but I need to respond to some points here)
Tony,

On = 10/04/2021, at 7:56 AM, Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi = Mark,

It was good to see a recognition that = the IETF has a potentially significant antitrust exposure and = willingness to increase the transparency mechanisms as a first = step. 

I = clearly read Mark's message very differently from you.

The exposure here is not new.  The first major = independent analysis of the topic occurred in 1994 by an external = lawfirm.  I know, because I signed the check, and then signed for = the liability insurance.  Over the years and especially during the = past decade, almost all significant standards bodies individually and = collectively have engaged in activities to diminish the exposure and = develop related sets of organisational practices.  =

The following = two sentences are a significant misrepresentation of the true state of = affairs.

The IETF has been largely a non-participant = outlier, ignoring the problems; although the relatively recent formation = of the LLC and work of legal counsel have made some improvements.

The IETF has long been "easy pickings" for = antitrust behaviors because of the lack of transparency and other = organisational practices which enable the adoption of a IETF standards = that enable a company to acquire significant market share for a product = or service. 


The tl;dr is that the = following characteristics of the IETF put us in a very strong position, = quite different from many other organisations:

* IETF participation is free and open to all = interested individuals. 
* Participants engage in their = individual capacity, not as company representatives. 
* A = wide range of perspectives is represented, reflecting interests from = multiple industry sectors, academia, government and non-governmental = organizations (NGOs), from around the globe. 
* IETF = procedural rules, which include robust appeal options, are = well-documented in public materials, and rigorously = followed. 
* IETF activities are conducted with extreme = transparency, in public forums. 
* Decision-making = requires achieving broad consensus via these public = processes. 
* IETF=E2=80=99s disclosure-focused = intellectual property rights policies carefully and transparently = balance the interests of standards contributors and standards = adopters. 
* Fundamentally, =E2=80=9CIETF participants = use their best engineering judgment to find the best solution for the = whole Internet, not just the best solution for any particular network, = technology, vendor, or user.=E2=80=9D[RFC 7154]

This is not to say that more could be done, and it = is true that in some cases there has been resistance to simple = improvements, but that should not be confused with the overall = position.

Jay

I believe there was testimony in recent litigation that an = IETF specification was worth about $4 million.  Continuing = participation in the IETF is very costly and the number of participants = attributed to a few specific companies or (as noted by Phil H-B, = unattributed operatives) at meetings is a testament to beneficiaries.

The observation that the IETF's problems today = extend well beyond anticompetitive behavior seems spot on.  The = participant and work item metrics show that major contemporary = specification development and engagement today have shifted rather = massively to venues like 3GPP.  The IETF remains stagnant.  = Large numbers of academics flow in and out to mine ideas and advance = their academic studies.  Few companies want to pursue anything = there anymore except for a comparative handful trying to leverage a few = more years and dollars out of legacy technologies.

The tendencies in the IETF to be abusive and intolerant - = especially to people who are apostates - has unfortunately been standard = practice in the IETF in the past few decades.  If you reject the = religious mandates of the IETF, you are declared "off topic," or fail to = get a group started, or told to go elsewhere - often in abusive = ways.  The intolerant behavior is especially difficult for those in = many non-Western cultures.  These are the bigger problems of the = IETF.

All organisations are largely = incapable of analysing themselves and understanding their strengths and = weakness in the larger ecosystem.  The tendency is to reject = criticism - even when it is essential.  It seems worth not only = maintaining a generic discourse list, but to encourage dissident and = critical participation without dismissing commentarity as rhetorical and = pile-on behavior.  Occasional good humour would also help.

best,
tony r (working as an = agnostic analyst who admittedly preferred the IETF circa 1970-1992)


On 08-Apr-21 1:02 AM, Mark = Nottingham wrote:
So = all of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse list = is probably a good thing.  --tony r
That is a *huge* = leap  -- can you show us your workings?


--
Gendispatch = mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_28AEBA70-A83A-47EF-8DA3-265289F3D7FA-- From nobody Fri Apr 9 21:25:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D4353A212C; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 21:25:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6mrYrmG_Cw4Y; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 21:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f170.google.com (mail-yb1-f170.google.com [209.85.219.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE1603A2126; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 21:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f170.google.com with SMTP id l9so8888429ybm.0; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 21:25:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4XTqehWkiZLAVV4EcBDfAuYGO/AS26cUIhseXQPo8f8=; b=BUX02ucvhDPqgwBsXN/PQgyZyXm5KZQJyf8TZxh6ySOR0M8/OvlSYbNGbchOR+4JxE HPOf+mYiNfV375hUogYJ5tRwri/FBNEg3tE7jPMqOAv8xb1N9PU53CCVgMxMeN00TvBF HljErOP9PID9HZNbe+/UNvkaFp/J5PGtFM2QCHcjfwJqqcQiJRPt9gh0sknExsauAi48 1pzjHxJkP0Sh8POB7f+91qK0J9ebOOs0jZWSrAkjaKsVAeEHHXxAd5gXYUNhYweMJe0R 108d/TxZ+y+pddhvQTAVFUePpTbKpPHKrlsEZ3ao1JLQCkrKrHyqn49EAtICZkknLDg/ B78A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53205DMjXT/l+2AibrPe9V7CAK/Hb7xgs/+g4PTFlWoPtbtlxhzm REOi6NC36dLEMoeEfjTULiA9IkbXYQKdjF0ejEdLWMa7HmM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwQ0IzH4GNP+DHxtERk1rPSfuJq3CdXIG/nJe70j2oy1d2VItxTxf1j2M7khTEThB+zzuPy2u91nUvZbGYB+eo= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:585:: with SMTP id l5mr22917721ybp.213.1618028714046; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 21:25:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> <5B3F15AE-CF7A-4D36-9ECB-B7340E03E1DC@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <5B3F15AE-CF7A-4D36-9ECB-B7340E03E1DC@ietf.org> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 00:25:02 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Tony Rutkowski , Mark Nottingham , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bcb9de05bf96aa26" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 04:25:18 -0000 --000000000000bcb9de05bf96aa26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To clarify, my concerns are not so much for direct IETF legal liability as the risk of IETF work becoming one of the battle grounds in the coming storm. Until the pandemic, there was bipartisan interest in addressing 'the issue' of 'big tech' in both the EU and US. 14 months later, Big Tech has only gotten even bigger and more concentrated. I rather doubt the issue has been forgotten by these people. All I am really saying is don't say anything in a WG meeting that you would not want repeated in front of a House Hearing. Most folk who participate in IETF are not authorized to speak on behalf of their company. I was the rare exception in that I was an official press contact for VeriSign which since it was a public company at the time meant I had to be aware of all sorts of legal requirements some of which had serious consequences for saying the wrong thing. It would be well for a lot of folk to bear in mind that the polite fiction we do not speak for our employers is going to be roughly as effective as a firewall is in stopping Internet breaches - it's not nothing but it isn't going to stop bullets or congressional subpoenas. On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 7:42 PM Jay Daley wrote: > (Apologies for continuing the increasingly off-topic conversation but I > need to respond to some points here) > > Tony, > > On 10/04/2021, at 7:56 AM, Tony Rutkowski > wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > It was good to see a recognition that the IETF has a potentially > significant antitrust exposure and willingness to increase the transparen= cy > mechanisms as a first step. > > > I clearly read Mark's message very differently from you. > > The exposure here is not new. The first major independent analysis of th= e > topic occurred in 1994 by an external lawfirm. I know, because I signed > the check, and then signed for the liability insurance. Over the years a= nd > especially during the past decade, almost all significant standards bodie= s > individually and collectively have engaged in activities to diminish the > exposure and develop related sets of organisational practices. > > > The following two sentences are a significant misrepresentation of the > true state of affairs. > > The IETF has been largely a non-participant outlier, ignoring the > problems; although the relatively recent formation of the LLC and work of > legal counsel have made some improvements. > > The IETF has long been "easy pickings" for antitrust behaviors because of > the lack of transparency and other organisational practices which enable > the adoption of a IETF standards that enable a company to acquire > significant market share for a product or service. > > > For a correct picture please see > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ > > The tl;dr is that the following characteristics of the IETF put us in a > very strong position, quite different from many other organisations: > > * IETF participation is free and open to all interested individuals. > * Participants engage in their individual capacity, not as company > representatives. > * A wide range of perspectives is represented, reflecting interests from > multiple industry sectors, academia, government and non-governmental > organizations (NGOs), from around the globe. > * IETF procedural rules, which include robust appeal options, are > well-documented in public materials, and rigorously followed. > * IETF activities are conducted with extreme transparency, in public > forums. > * Decision-making requires achieving broad consensus via these public > processes. > * IETF=E2=80=99s disclosure-focused intellectual property rights policies > carefully and transparently balance the interests of standards contributo= rs > and standards adopters. > * Fundamentally, =E2=80=9CIETF participants use their best engineering ju= dgment to > find the best solution for the whole Internet, not just the best solution > for any particular network, technology, vendor, or user.=E2=80=9D[RFC 715= 4] > > This is not to say that more could be done, and it is true that in some > cases there has been resistance to simple improvements, but that should n= ot > be confused with the overall position. > > Jay > > I believe there was testimony in recent litigation that an IETF > specification was worth about $4 million. Continuing participation in th= e > IETF is very costly and the number of participants attributed to a few > specific companies or (as noted by Phil H-B, unattributed operatives) at > meetings is a testament to beneficiaries. > > The observation that the IETF's problems today extend well beyond > anticompetitive behavior seems spot on. The participant and work item > metrics show that major contemporary specification development and > engagement today have shifted rather massively to venues like 3GPP. The > IETF remains stagnant. Large numbers of academics flow in and out to min= e > ideas and advance their academic studies. Few companies want to pursue > anything there anymore except for a comparative handful trying to leverag= e > a few more years and dollars out of legacy technologies. > > The tendencies in the IETF to be abusive and intolerant - especially to > people who are apostates - has unfortunately been standard practice in th= e > IETF in the past few decades. If you reject the religious mandates of th= e > IETF, you are declared "off topic," or fail to get a group started, or to= ld > to go elsewhere - often in abusive ways. The intolerant behavior is > especially difficult for those in many non-Western cultures. These are t= he > bigger problems of the IETF. > > All organisations are largely incapable of analysing themselves and > understanding their strengths and weakness in the larger ecosystem. The > tendency is to reject criticism - even when it is essential. It seems > worth not only maintaining a generic discourse list, but to encourage > dissident and critical participation without dismissing commentarity as > rhetorical and pile-on behavior. Occasional good humour would also help. > > best, > tony r (working as an agnostic analyst who admittedly preferred the IETF > circa 1970-1992) > > > On 08-Apr-21 1:02 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > So all of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse lis= t > is probably a good thing. --tony r > That is a *huge* leap -- can you show us your workings? > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000bcb9de05bf96aa26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To = clarify, my concerns are not so much for direct IETF legal liability as the= risk of IETF work becoming one of the battle grounds in the coming=C2=A0st= orm.=C2=A0

=
Until the pand= emic, there was bipartisan interest in addressing 'the issue' of &#= 39;big tech' in both the EU and US. 14 months later, Big Tech has only = gotten even bigger and more concentrated. I rather doubt the issue has been= forgotten by these people.

All I am really saying is don't say anything in a WG meeting that yo= u would not want repeated in front of a House Hearing.

Most folk who participate in IETF are not aut= horized to speak on behalf of their company. I was the rare exception=C2=A0= in that I was an official press contact for VeriSign which since it was a p= ublic company at the time meant I had to be aware of all sorts of legal req= uirements some of which had serious consequences for saying the wrong thing= . It would be well for a lot of folk to bear in mind that the polite fictio= n we do not speak for our employers=C2=A0is going to be roughly=C2=A0as eff= ective as a firewall is in stopping Internet breaches - it's not nothin= g but it isn't going to stop bullets or congressional subpoenas.
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">


On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 = at 7:42 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org&g= t; wrote:
(Apologies for continuing the increasin= gly off-topic conversation but I need to respond to some points here)
<= br>
Tony,

On 10/04/202= 1, at 7:56 AM, Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com> wrote:

=
Hi Mark,

It was good to see a recognition that the IETF has a p= otentially significant antitrust exposure and willingness to increase the t= ransparency mechanisms as a first step.=C2=A0
=
I clearly read Mark's message very differently from you.=

The exposure here is not new= .=C2=A0 The first major independent analysis of the topic occurred in 1994 = by an external lawfirm.=C2=A0 I know, because I signed the check, and then = signed for the liability insurance.=C2=A0 Over the years and especially dur= ing the past decade, almost all significant standards bodies individually a= nd collectively have engaged in activities to diminish the exposure and dev= elop related sets of organisational practices.=C2=A0

The following two sentences are a significant misrep= resentation of the true state of affairs.

The IETF has been largely a non-participant outlier, ignoring t= he problems; although the relatively recent formation of the LLC and work o= f legal counsel have made some improvements.

The IETF has long been = "easy pickings" for antitrust behaviors because of the lack of tr= ansparency and other organisational practices which enable the adoption of = a IETF standards that enable a company to acquire significant market share = for a product or service.=C2=A0

For a correct picture please see=C2=A0https://www.= ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/

=
The tl;dr is that the following characteristics of the IETF put = us in a very strong position, quite different from many other organisations= :

* IETF participation is free and open to all int= erested individuals.=C2=A0
* Participants engage in their individ= ual capacity, not as company representatives.=C2=A0
* A wide rang= e of perspectives is represented, reflecting interests from multiple indust= ry sectors, academia, government and non-governmental organizations (NGOs),= from around the globe.=C2=A0
* IETF procedural rules, which incl= ude robust appeal options, are well-documented in public materials, and rig= orously followed.=C2=A0
* IETF activities are conducted with extr= eme transparency, in public forums.=C2=A0
* Decision-making requi= res achieving broad consensus via these public processes.=C2=A0
*= IETF=E2=80=99s disclosure-focused intellectual property rights policies ca= refully and transparently balance the interests of standards contributors a= nd standards adopters.=C2=A0
* Fundamentally, =E2=80=9CIETF parti= cipants use their best engineering judgment to find the best solution for t= he whole Internet, not just the best solution for any particular network, t= echnology, vendor, or user.=E2=80=9D[RFC 7154]

Thi= s is not to say that more could be done, and it is true that in some cases = there has been resistance to simple improvements, but that should not be co= nfused with the overall position.

Jay

I believe there was testimony in recent l= itigation that an IETF specification was worth about $4 million.=C2=A0 Cont= inuing participation in the IETF is very costly and the number of participa= nts attributed to a few specific companies or (as noted by Phil H-B, unattr= ibuted operatives) at meetings is a testament to beneficiaries.

The = observation that the IETF's problems today extend well beyond anticompe= titive behavior seems spot on.=C2=A0 The participant and work item metrics = show that major contemporary specification development and engagement today= have shifted rather massively to venues like 3GPP.=C2=A0 The IETF remains = stagnant.=C2=A0 Large numbers of academics flow in and out to mine ideas an= d advance their academic studies.=C2=A0 Few companies want to pursue anythi= ng there anymore except for a comparative handful trying to leverage a few = more years and dollars out of legacy technologies.

The tendencies in= the IETF to be abusive and intolerant - especially to people who are apost= ates - has unfortunately been standard practice in the IETF in the past few= decades.=C2=A0 If you reject the religious mandates of the IETF, you are d= eclared "off topic," or fail to get a group started, or told to g= o elsewhere - often in abusive ways.=C2=A0 The intolerant behavior is espec= ially difficult for those in many non-Western cultures.=C2=A0 These are the= bigger problems of the IETF.

All organisations are largely incapabl= e of analysing themselves and understanding their strengths and weakness in= the larger ecosystem.=C2=A0 The tendency is to reject criticism - even whe= n it is essential.=C2=A0 It seems worth not only maintaining a generic disc= ourse list, but to encourage dissident and critical participation without d= ismissing commentarity as rhetorical and pile-on behavior.=C2=A0 Occasional= good humour would also help.

best,
tony r (working as an agnosti= c analyst who admittedly preferred the IETF circa 1970-1992)


On = 08-Apr-21 1:02 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
So a= ll of the above suggest that maintaining a generic IETF discourse list is p= robably a good thing. =C2=A0--tony r
That is a *huge* leap =C2=A0-- can = you show us your workings?


--
Gendispatch maili= ng list
Gendis= patch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatc= h

--=C2=A0
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000bcb9de05bf96aa26-- From nobody Sat Apr 10 11:21:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC91A3A0C87 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:21:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxYZdeNQvHNr for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5BD83A0C86 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id j7so6794133qtx.5 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:21:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=4sSbyFMXADLnFoaCwttsh+SVl+peNmbCwb22b8z85nQ=; b=Do5CgsWknFWd2LDk6uJ1nJvh51vfFoFbr5RacnQCqlkGnO2Xxszk4LakqRXaua/+WA Zndfag9oK7B2rIni/xjGBAq3Mp28vRp0ic2owrund8tyJY0Acoa/ID/q9SWyTfuDBEwD akr4zzWwHZOB7eOXQU7hQV7MgRKav0syi9gbhMR8Xvizfa+PUP5Q9Qvtk28jvVf428g3 OILFyvVcs4/wO3I/YReRultvgRhD9vZu0YW9huJmGDPYeZLwul6hJ1tTtSixigo1v5JQ nEyGca/nwWC9aVxVQrSpTBRZYVMRUEsq/flICSK/qAt9CsuxZf3oEOSt9A2HfYstNnaK MErQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=4sSbyFMXADLnFoaCwttsh+SVl+peNmbCwb22b8z85nQ=; b=r+qYBfQS/9hMCnqat3k0Qb46zx7AizZuOKLHcn/t4XGR6JJ20ypzTn6JUJfP3XU0dO koBLQR4r9zIoGfo6roSKhftvM0nYwvnT0YFAWcjmTW7Q0DESr4x7y8lt+Xvj4MEWywgK 5T9UC6KeJdLiKsWUez8V6Ni9/vzj2dI0ZDXd8gTn2w/M2huaOKSxUOFDK2a1nEg8YPs4 U1Dc7TYBkg3F3Xm6Phfa9QN4VNwjrRi+lr+EeBM4jiMKcTmB3mwB2SvokX+pK4KrZ0Zq mrOKwtLgiMJyLELxctxGNmRPNp8uMRUZ8i/1sHLrxBihThaStT6kzjvv/bx0arV9t1BX XcmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533YxHFiL7MpXtfUwqhnNJhaa2Y06QbvD4zBYrRkpssNBEtRV2NG YZ7V0wFDRrVXhTVnSw2mquf8l+fnGF3ONA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzHrLwnXu76bGvUsVoowjdcNDsIuXf5mn8TCWcAnBWbSBy20ess2rA1fvLUE1bxwuQc9bnZFQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:14d4:: with SMTP id u20mr18657887qtx.185.1618078894450; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.249] (pool-70-106-222-98.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.222.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e2sm4258759qto.50.2021.04.10.11.21.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:21:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Nico Williams Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> <20210409221135.GD9612@localhost> From: Tony Rutkowski Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 14:21:33 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210409221135.GD9612@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 18:21:40 -0000 Hi Nico, There is actually effective solace in many if not most industry standards bodies today where those with a common interest and collaborative style do well - frequently embellished with good wine and food.  Courtesy of Google Patents, however, we can all see that the world of standards bodies is surrounded by the vast "dark matter" of proprietary standards threaded through vendor products and services.  Only some of the IPR makes it into industry bodies to advance market strategies.  All standards bodies tend to persist in the delusion of being in control of some perceived turf. Over the past 45 years, I've been in most of them - mapping and analyzing them, and pushing occasional work here and there.  They all have their own proclivities.  Some like the ISO or ATIS, I still disdain and eschew for multiple detractions - not the least of which is selling off someone else's IPR as standards. Hopefully, Karl Malamud will prevail in his EUCOJ litigation. The IETF in the 80s and early 90s had hope, but became a cult with religious views - propped up by entities who earn massive revenues from what was once called Silicon Snake Oil.  It was always amazing how pushing bits around was turned into a religion and community, only to ultimately burp out alt-universe wonders like QAnon.  There is life on the outside. Enuf said.... cheers, tony On 09-Apr-21 6:11 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > Corporate and military organizations can do it, if they get lucky, > because all it takes is someone at the top with the right vision, > skills, and will power. We're not such an organization. We have egos > in the way. From nobody Sat Apr 10 20:13:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138173A26B8; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 20:13:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ck2aIVYmPK4z; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 20:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B3FC3A26B7; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 20:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id d5so501407iof.3; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 20:13:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iaGZGLf+N2jbLNQnfdcwjaVk9/xqcU4fHtv+igZmK3E=; b=EtqUEPbmXVjkp5X22XoLboCZJ9rPf7EnM2cqaBD1K4F0Tc26dXPb/wcyOrJzUgyN0Y tZoEYeUAWC30y84y9WV5LhpTkGnywFAwXUrq8X0Pm4tc9w+v8MU5k4TNwox7J/XaQO7t g/Y1/eLiMJDaF5BHHKacJPTcaoIHWUn3gmqg31MrLOwgV6mv6eX5NgYbahCMo0TpJhyO xGoB3qr0YhEAuqrW/RebNzXc8J7UGRntKuULWyE//DEi2ZiAgVT0VDqJ/GCwlIGHXV+M 2FABgsYEOTfX4TY+uyphOP7uncNDZbZkjJQgOVtbVLwikkPTjpCnJZiZkkQPmnWA6bau xTsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iaGZGLf+N2jbLNQnfdcwjaVk9/xqcU4fHtv+igZmK3E=; b=jjc/AgkHCTyjoWvA34B8+5b5L3NlW/CP7T0YvFcEajm1OSAwSzDYaBqdQE3ytfpfiF BEb0ocjvnS1ps3vCJnvA/Txu7qR9o3BEm8tZ4VK8vO4A6XsAA5RwGWUzimiRVSqxoqcL ZhoQf7I1Ifd6Am41TVBeJF4oHKvbFZNd4yw3+VKaFDPvP4LYKl4wHmpdcWLSfI9KHrTr Cd2VNN8aGuEMml0gAolS54r7OLC3zx4M/Au1MC6+defa8Yp0JHutotDZvNKjk3hOJGx2 XhVIEBZ5HT82iNlnUbjVU9ZuZt9ras5CW9HfseE54qmn5N0puM05zyjoyj6MrJnGxgK8 gu2A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310LKO3Nss/pQ0g1aqD6TQtJkMIK9FFbZBn7hcyiWVlr2jhr+Fp QRCDi4ETsmkX+Z1+OcM8h65NnAu7AOzqTY17hRA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+IRSK34gl54FUifiDCkp3T55wIrSldhWGMZU+lB4aVDlC45tmkk8RxMMwNr5ZFMXNISIyk/cFqs3qvGGhvAc= X-Received: by 2002:a02:8817:: with SMTP id r23mr3034731jai.30.1618110813659; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 20:13:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> <5B3F15AE-CF7A-4D36-9ECB-B7340E03E1DC@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 20:13:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: Jay Daley , Mark Nottingham , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Tony Rutkowski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000041641f05bfa9c81d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 03:13:40 -0000 --00000000000041641f05bfa9c81d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:25 PM Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > To clarify, my concerns are not so much for direct IETF legal liability as > the risk of IETF work becoming one of the battle grounds in the > coming storm. > > On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 7:42 PM Jay Daley wrote: > >> (Apologies for continuing the increasingly off-topic conversation but I >> need to respond to some points here) >> > This conversation does appear to be off-topic. What kind of new work is being proposed? From the charter: Options for handling new work include: - Directing the work to an existing WG. - Developing a proposal for a BOF. - Developing a charter for a new WG. - Making recommendations that documents be AD-sponsored (which ADs may or may not choose to follow). - Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the work. - Deferring the decision for the new work. - Rejecting the new work. thanks, Rob --00000000000041641f05bfa9c81d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To clarify, my concerns are not so much for direct IETF legal liability a= s the risk of IETF work becoming one of the battle grounds in the coming=C2= =A0storm.=C2=A0

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 7:42 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
<= /div>
(Apologies for = continuing the increasingly off-topic conversation but I need to respond to= some points here)

This conversation does appear to be off-topic. What kind of new work is be= ing proposed? From the charter:

Options for handli= ng new work include:
- Directing the work to an existing WG.
- Developing a proposal for a BOF.
- Developing a charter f= or a new WG.
- Making recommendations that documents be AD-sponso= red (which ADs may or may not choose to follow).
- Requesting tha= t the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the work.
- Def= erring the decision for the new work.
- Rejecting the new work.

thanks,
Rob
--00000000000041641f05bfa9c81d-- From nobody Sun Apr 11 02:53:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8083A3577 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 02:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.618 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.618 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aLHlc1A5NMUu for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 02:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE7F03A3575 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 02:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424EB5C013E for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 05:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 11 Apr 2021 05:52:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=wkid4u nh+E+a8XzYgl2r7bpBU10P7wmAe0MDuvt3hek=; b=HiS3+QBWTz6kyKqT/mmkre Ab6UJn8atXKQJDuhsQoVxcdxp87u7hcd4x3G3Ge9Lh2gKfEgf+eJ2jo0oxVqaXJq GxGP/9gWWTYGeSdM9E+15XScCr89KDe3yMp3/hOJAihYIxFkoqfdjYjmKjO5K6QR Xs86K9GicgK7WnnNwVDYHaYl4wBr0PdZC7OsUceekfYEDWbqGt24Y0QOteNAIJPA 7bIY3zku+u5MQ0D79Fs+XDYKkJTVVjBfu9fglwnqE/DveU7i7OlAdP7to0AdWBW6 LX/U9SWS3Waxmf82WDmaUrdC55BnK1Q/Vurg590w7MctmWKw1rqGY8gYt4bml7VQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudekgedgudehtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtsegrtd erredtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevfeetudeige dtledvvddtudefjeejffdvfeetjeeiueelgfdtgfegtdffkeetudenucfkphepvdefrddu vdegrddutddrudejtdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.25.71] (23-124-10-170.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [23.124.10.170]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 82EC8240057 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 05:52:51 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> <5B3F15AE-CF7A-4D36-9ECB-B7340E03E1DC@ietf.org> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 05:52:51 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------101B2E95DBF9C63932B2E0D4" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 09:52:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------101B2E95DBF9C63932B2E0D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4/10/21 11:13 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:25 PM Phillip Hallam-Baker > > wrote: > > To clarify, my concerns are not so much for direct IETF legal > liability as the risk of IETF work becoming one of the battle > grounds in the coming storm. > > On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 7:42 PM Jay Daley > wrote: > > (Apologies for continuing the increasingly off-topic > conversation but I need to respond to some points here) > > > This conversation does appear to be off-topic. What kind of new work > is being proposed? From the charter: > > Options for handling new work include: > - Directing the work to an existing WG. > - Developing a proposal for a BOF. > - Developing a charter for a new WG. > - Making recommendations that documents be AD-sponsored (which ADs may > or may not choose to follow). > - Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the > work. > - Deferring the decision for the new work. > - Rejecting the new work. And this is the problem with gendispatch in a nutshell - its focus is restricted to things for which a new WG or document actually make sense, and the range of problems in the "general" area of IETF are much broader than that.   Meanwhile, gendispatch is the latest in many efforts to DoS the IETF list where general discussion used to take place. Keith --------------101B2E95DBF9C63932B2E0D4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 4/10/21 11:13 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:25 PM Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> wrote:
To clarify, my concerns are not so much for direct IETF legal liability as the risk of IETF work becoming one of the battle grounds in the coming storm. 

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 7:42 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
(Apologies for continuing the increasingly off-topic conversation but I need to respond to some points here)

This conversation does appear to be off-topic. What kind of new work is being proposed? From the charter:

Options for handling new work include:
- Directing the work to an existing WG.
- Developing a proposal for a BOF.
- Developing a charter for a new WG.
- Making recommendations that documents be AD-sponsored (which ADs may or may not choose to follow).
- Requesting that the the IESG or the IETF LLC consider taking up the work.
- Deferring the decision for the new work.
- Rejecting the new work.

And this is the problem with gendispatch in a nutshell - its focus is restricted to things for which a new WG or document actually make sense, and the range of problems in the "general" area of IETF are much broader than that.   Meanwhile, gendispatch is the latest in many efforts to DoS the IETF list where general discussion used to take place. 

Keith


--------------101B2E95DBF9C63932B2E0D4-- From nobody Sun Apr 11 03:00:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171DD3A35A5 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 03:00:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ht9mLh48wfqw for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 03:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 953643A35A6 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 03:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 94562 invoked by uid 100); 11 Apr 2021 10:00:07 -0000 Date: 11 Apr 2021 09:59:43 -0000 Message-ID: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 10:00:14 -0000 Count | Bytes | Who ------------+----------------+------- 16 (25.4%) | 136348 (18.2%) | Rob Sayre 12 (19.0%) | 94680 (12.6%) | Keith Moore 6 ( 9.5%) | 158934 (21.2%) | Stephen Farrell 5 ( 7.9%) | 54720 ( 7.3%) | Salz, Rich 5 ( 7.9%) | 51967 ( 6.9%) | Tony Rutkowski 3 ( 4.8%) | 46615 ( 6.2%) | Livingood, Jason 3 ( 4.8%) | 43988 ( 5.9%) | Jay Daley 3 ( 4.8%) | 27743 ( 3.7%) | Mark Nottingham 2 ( 3.2%) | 22743 ( 3.0%) | Pete Resnick 2 ( 3.2%) | 14829 ( 2.0%) | Nico Williams 1 ( 1.6%) | 44891 ( 6.0%) | Rob Wilton (rwilton) 1 ( 1.6%) | 21280 ( 2.8%) | Phillip Hallam-Baker 1 ( 1.6%) | 9947 ( 1.3%) | Vittorio Bertola 1 ( 1.6%) | 9446 ( 1.3%) | Eric Rescorla 1 ( 1.6%) | 7683 ( 1.0%) | Brian E Carpenter 1 ( 1.6%) | 3766 ( 0.5%) | Fernando Gont From nobody Sun Apr 11 11:47:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9894A3A192D for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 11:47:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sVsEY_ioFN-t for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 11:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D02E13A192C for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 11:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3236AE02B28A; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:47:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HWpnFxTZjLJF; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:47:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.27] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 13021E02B27B; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:47:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Pete Resnick To: John Levine Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:47:33 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5786) Message-ID: <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 18:47:44 -0000 John, You were requested last Augst not to post these to the gendispatch list. What caused it to be sent again? pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Sun Apr 11 12:17:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F0B3A1A42 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 12:17:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=cYStlINt; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Zkcdlj3E Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JAbKuZGNFVda for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 12:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDC803A1A41 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 12:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11244 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2021 19:17:40 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=2bea.60734b54.k2104; bh=I4Eu1UJUathXHRitlnnJCTzv9U+D/9O7Tf4o8/xdkS0=; b=cYStlINtP1ff0nWcI+GIQZVM0fHhp9u9dDAQrTj4rSxUrTpkrOCc5uWwPsKyqRBbV8CFx5MG/7CUGSZlwBsBckT9MN7RaAqU9twiR6JDEVTKrCcBIIoMk+7SfgL2ZQNF/rSVvnRucfGQP6tOnvpHCftD8I0gquHXNjiQCQHYVbpxLVcOP97qCsnhibmZhyZa/TWtRCQmlW1GQrlAmw8o5+R7ybFQmvOqOJSlxUwbp0b4yjsI6mXlwnB6Of3zyEX6P5T5fK8dvahabvIAX8XfveEp0G1AtJTICIRHrVpRolCejWpwGgHaqaTWUzVmCRzSksvrzbl5lybsq1mK7zkeXA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=2bea.60734b54.k2104; bh=I4Eu1UJUathXHRitlnnJCTzv9U+D/9O7Tf4o8/xdkS0=; b=Zkcdlj3EWnMJpnzzFGV75WcJjPgOUCxOcYrHb1BH6r5o+X9HszHc6g7JWRtUnmg3dAT95LQs/LfvWp2PvHvKrgWv6i3S6y6AGETNRoOtyP3aL0evqjGPS20ExGYabk8VkaoIXmmLB8ZoCUc8oTdGR21Fx4tEsm0SnUqYmSP3BTFa1Ecq7YCEMUYkyjinUJuAeCWytd3hqlFarutv9OW9syhgSjeDWcxS/aA/5rtNr8wxl/zkxn5laEXifqdw+VlOjMrsEH2wZ0DNZVGjmDGiUmSoCSzM2/WdOQCPvRz6qyQSILjsRSUKf+OBcQwcDcSnTf7AiQDoSqAMg7CDFwTrfw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 11 Apr 2021 19:17:40 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 320B372B1677; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 15:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id B309772B1657; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 15:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: 11 Apr 2021 15:17:38 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Pete Resnick" Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 19:17:50 -0000 On Sun, 11 Apr 2021, Pete Resnick wrote: > You were requested last Augst not to post these to the gendispatch list. What > caused it to be sent again? I moved some files around and missed one. Sorry. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Mon Apr 12 14:19:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D3E3A0E26; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:19:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O6Jgw9ToXm_i; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr100048.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.10.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 856AF3A0DF1; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:19:30 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=L/AZ9H5ovlfXRhcA/7cjQz5eDefa8Yv3vBVkY2LgN81yh+bcNzKDm4SI5btyJEqxcdQZzSFKQDJDn8dc5CHIHRbpI1siIEWowH4g6Jb/lP76BHIB8zTmicEnuq0HLYFYqgjqJauzlFqAyJQpgyKOpUSSQW/hmmIu/1cFC2guvDqC/TkVWhkcXUaPUrHE64GeWqB3sCgYJq78T+HAYm4guMULoiY2f7imY/oQGdW3ut729GxrfXsFzm95XCxkfjg/nwt/awgLJASWly2NV6lvorTUsaZNhEHy9gUIcZetLuQE3ApPnfzKtQ3Gs1Pjx+qrYjECM5tT7HkTzRs3AZbhIg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=aSOUf+qwJ3GnJrukDJ+yWxfRRZr8mMfy69xYKzxO9Kk=; b=Uu3bVQp+LsfGqw510K8TEp1v1PI/hvOTVRItg3BxsfuLT++NHxBLcJgFRoVux2WkPofQMsXafHzZyQVNkxcC054+DOhH3ybl93uLSUKcdfPc+AdAif1VKMlKkmGyAxgTr+S6AhWFbTD8SnBa/QwxUzUobl+/FnYTxRPflG4HZ0iStEXhjrY8wCH6dJOVumX8V6e+sTWlh+CXTOrTvcIIHwkweb77hfrdI2jgwnYjtry4H4vfie3YY3jlDFjQw8zf0WPOAbO9rkZZ4unajnOI5tNfxb1I7tHKrwrYEq1O2go4N/Etth3PXAd5wYFfChByj0Hsg4zOKoBU+GEk6qb80Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=aSOUf+qwJ3GnJrukDJ+yWxfRRZr8mMfy69xYKzxO9Kk=; b=C3zCu0L9eCHveQv+W3e1F7Rd/9s4+6Rg1kX/jm7LWo8lAaOChMx0Ywd128etEaAfuK/oZW3le0/v1Kek26kbxQxiakujrg0MCRzcj0BT1LKj1mtIFzPDF0G3pzCOz4NdXEicBTZpTFFhxL+KU72C347OTk9UGEAcpOkzXpEJ5Hk= Received: from LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:67::18) by LO0P265MB3305.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:187::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4020.22; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:19:28 +0000 Received: from LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::3cdc:773c:a0:88f7]) by LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::3cdc:773c:a0:88f7%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4020.022; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:19:28 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: Jay Daley , Tony Rutkowski CC: Mark Nottingham , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity Thread-Index: AQHXLZoD6UkZBwxFME2NexNPPP17/aqxYbKA Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:19:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3D340A9D-1A39-4ADA-BA27-E4E912CA6D03@akamai.com> <8d9a6f04-4d6d-288a-e901-aa17c42a5886@gmail.com> <65aec12d-715d-9447-65ae-70b14bbab717@cs.tcd.ie> <2dfc430a-be5c-507d-1f63-9df7f71c9588@cs.tcd.ie> <32ab9a0e-d105-6861-7b46-c438bb5547bc@gmail.com> <5B3F15AE-CF7A-4D36-9ECB-B7340E03E1DC@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <5B3F15AE-CF7A-4D36-9ECB-B7340E03E1DC@ietf.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=419.consulting; x-originating-ip: [185.16.207.40] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b0e357e4-8b6e-43cc-31c6-08d8fdf8a7ce x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO0P265MB3305: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(39830400003)(376002)(396003)(136003)(346002)(7696005)(38100700002)(4326008)(5660300002)(86362001)(66574015)(71200400001)(83380400001)(52536014)(53546011)(6506007)(9686003)(110136005)(44832011)(8936002)(54906003)(33656002)(66476007)(2906002)(316002)(64756008)(66946007)(186003)(26005)(76116006)(66556008)(66446008)(478600001)(55016002)(8676002)(46492009); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?utf-8?B?MTQyVXB4U2g4a3RoTzNxaGplSlF5MHpVL3BOdWlieWhrSXRqTTRZNWZzNzRi?= =?utf-8?B?YW8xc3B6eHVYYXRSVHgrbXpqMkZkalNyaXRMY3FDQjY3Qlp1aXpTVm5lam1J?= =?utf-8?B?aDJmNzBaL1ZHMnZKRy9WZFB2bXl6bW9jTzVTaEZHVkFIMXNVelNQbmw4Q3Yx?= =?utf-8?B?QWN2NUtNV2k4YVhZbnRyMjEycmxoNmdrK1UreUNtR0VsUlBkRUdsWGVNVEdu?= =?utf-8?B?VGZMT1pUNDdyVW52dTNBSis4b2NRcFVIMnplWG0vaks3RjcwVVE0bS9wbWta?= =?utf-8?B?azQwWmZtYXhlNDBNYWVISmZ3UkRpYzRyWGxQK2F4dGpweTVxTnJiQmxzV1FN?= =?utf-8?B?Z0IvdlIxb0h1Y2FyejJiMTNhT2ZyekRZNkRTclhrdGVOUG1nOGhwMHdESnI4?= =?utf-8?B?T2kzYUJEcjQ1NGlLdnhrZnR4ZnJ0czJaamhiT0k0VEptcU5vNk5nelh6Zjk2?= =?utf-8?B?ZnFLYVU2U0dFQUhVZHpGMkkyRDlxVFBHZ1ZEcHc5ZUlwaVZOU2ZhRHdlRWNK?= =?utf-8?B?YTFBd3J3eXVxT2puekxpL1NJWG5Sd2NtSko1eEFLMWZhbXlidWIveGhOK3Uz?= =?utf-8?B?ZU0wUVN0cy8yYzhIeS9vK3dJOFIwcHp0ajFOcjFkOE00M1BLclN1VHpFaDR3?= =?utf-8?B?d3BoRkZqYjlyNXk1eDBVemphbVZvVDVFL3NJMW15UTc5NGo4cG5CV1NrNXZ2?= =?utf-8?B?a25KWFF1T29iS3hTUHFsYjBObDlJSFRVbmRvTlVhVGRtVTJPV1hDcTNJeG1r?= =?utf-8?B?SzJPK3lsQkJ0MnlVREliVG9JQ2c0dHhMYzNBTDNHbnFXQVJFcWI5RXA1dHE5?= =?utf-8?B?QWU2MjE1REd2Y3BCanFkbUs1aWR2TUdlR2dEaVhWeVpIdUY2QjVCRlRiUG5l?= =?utf-8?B?VnA2clBBWjByNDZncHEvWDRvUExFMnJmbTFCbU1oS2paaU1lUlFJZTk4RVpY?= =?utf-8?B?d2J3YWVKa0U5c2h6M2xkL0xNeG5IMmNCV3Zkc1o4ejBXREpJZEZmZ1hkT2dj?= =?utf-8?B?QkhpUmJUZmZYT0dudkYyeGhMVzZhTVFBNkdOaG5uT2pIRmpXNWlhRXhpSzFO?= =?utf-8?B?c1IvOWI2R0VFZzVPYUszUkVCaHhJT1JoUVF3Wk1mazg3SkRYa290R2N6Q25i?= =?utf-8?B?dFVPS3ptT2pudXBoRTNEK0Y4UXNkOVFDL2NEeHlzSE9qdmYvSHVYRGE3K3BI?= =?utf-8?B?enV4ZjZzV0R5RWZBaFB6RzQrM0lVUzQ3ZG5UbHYzcnlJY0h1bjlML1BNWTVZ?= =?utf-8?B?aTRnRWhVRUpoZVY0MWtQZFJuZmpONW53eFRHMUUycnpraHBGb0JvWDZZaTJ0?= =?utf-8?B?S0JFZVVrL1Nqb1RNdkZJeUtTejQvN2d2RVpMWE9iUnk3Um4rTiswR2NWZFpU?= =?utf-8?B?ejl6dzhGS2hTemMzVEJuSDVIWXZqbU5DR29mTTNTMnJWUS9MdmdONmYyT21Y?= =?utf-8?B?bkU5dUhjWWlRTGR0K1RxTzZCNUNKOG1OK2ZPcjBtY0psMkUwaFowTGRjbG1F?= =?utf-8?B?QW1aQjcxNkw3UHFzQmZ4MG1HVzg0K0RxWW1nS0ZUQjIvY1R0UmxwaWsxT0hm?= =?utf-8?B?ejdKVjdOekdiajVBcFQxYlFRRG5vd05vYTZBcms4S1BHdTBxRytlTVdoVWFo?= =?utf-8?B?V1k4RldiL3hFTkViREI2Y29zN0p5dThWeDhCK3BJWWJheVpyc3Nra2s0eUJi?= =?utf-8?B?dmZ1eS9haEFBK3J1QWVtRVlOL1pFdTdWTmltU2VjOXlqMXAwSndCNXhzOXpj?= =?utf-8?Q?WT2e3qAbXNGNAg82MoJsNmRh0tQxZmiobtTphE1?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_LO2P265MB03999128D66BB9DC34636BADC2709LO2P265MB0399GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P265MB0399.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b0e357e4-8b6e-43cc-31c6-08d8fdf8a7ce X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Apr 2021 21:19:28.0630 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8ypnyjkox4ird4Cng0BzD+22PinuWltvo33dlWjfgfqjMvqHhFudrYMlFwFt1jjxLOHhSIrWzH11S6MVSl54wlOjjnnxjkcvlgOdWHzI7SE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO0P265MB3305 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF transparency and diversity X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:19:39 -0000 --_000_LO2P265MB03999128D66BB9DC34636BADC2709LO2P265MB0399GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T24gMTAvMDQvMjAyMSwgYXQgMDA6NDIsIEpheSBEYWxleSA8amF5QGlldGYub3JnPiB3cm90ZToN Cg0KPiBUaGUgdGw7ZHIgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIGNoYXJhY3RlcmlzdGljcyBvZiB0 aGUgSUVURiBwdXQgdXMgaW4gYSB2ZXJ5IHN0cm9uZyBwb3NpdGlvbiwgcXVpdGUgZGlmZmVyZW50 IGZyb20gbWFueSBvdGhlciBvcmdhbmlzYXRpb25zOg0KDQo+ICogSUVURiBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW9u IGlzIGZyZWUgYW5kIG9wZW4gdG8gYWxsIGludGVyZXN0ZWQgaW5kaXZpZHVhbHMuDQo+ICogUGFy dGljaXBhbnRzIGVuZ2FnZSBpbiB0aGVpciBpbmRpdmlkdWFsIGNhcGFjaXR5LCBub3QgYXMgY29t cGFueSByZXByZXNlbnRhdGl2ZXMuDQo+ICogQSB3aWRlIHJhbmdlIG9mIHBlcnNwZWN0aXZlcyBp cyByZXByZXNlbnRlZCwgcmVmbGVjdGluZyBpbnRlcmVzdHMgZnJvbSBtdWx0aXBsZSBpbmR1c3Ry eSBzZWN0b3JzLCBhY2FkZW1pYSwgZ292ZXJubWVudCBhbmQgbm9uLWdvdmVybm1lbnRhbCBvcmdh bml6YXRpb25zIChOR09zKSwgZnJvbSBhcm91bmQgdGhlIGdsb2JlLg0KPiAqIElFVEYgcHJvY2Vk dXJhbCBydWxlcywgd2hpY2ggaW5jbHVkZSByb2J1c3QgYXBwZWFsIG9wdGlvbnMsIGFyZSB3ZWxs LWRvY3VtZW50ZWQgaW4gcHVibGljIG1hdGVyaWFscywgYW5kIHJpZ29yb3VzbHkgZm9sbG93ZWQu DQo+ICogSUVURiBhY3Rpdml0aWVzIGFyZSBjb25kdWN0ZWQgd2l0aCBleHRyZW1lIHRyYW5zcGFy ZW5jeSwgaW4gcHVibGljIGZvcnVtcy4NCj4gKiBEZWNpc2lvbi1tYWtpbmcgcmVxdWlyZXMgYWNo aWV2aW5nIGJyb2FkIGNvbnNlbnN1cyB2aWEgdGhlc2UgcHVibGljIHByb2Nlc3Nlcy4NCj4gKiBJ RVRG4oCZcyBkaXNjbG9zdXJlLWZvY3VzZWQgaW50ZWxsZWN0dWFsIHByb3BlcnR5IHJpZ2h0cyBw b2xpY2llcyBjYXJlZnVsbHkgYW5kIHRyYW5zcGFyZW50bHkgYmFsYW5jZSB0aGUgaW50ZXJlc3Rz IG9mIHN0YW5kYXJkcyBjb250cmlidXRvcnMgYW5kIHN0YW5kYXJkcyBhZG9wdGVycy4NCj4gKiBG dW5kYW1lbnRhbGx5LCDigJxJRVRGIHBhcnRpY2lwYW50cyB1c2UgdGhlaXIgYmVzdCBlbmdpbmVl cmluZyBqdWRnbWVudCB0byBmaW5kIHRoZSBiZXN0IHNvbHV0aW9uIGZvciB0aGUgd2hvbGUgSW50 ZXJuZXQsIG5vdCBqdXN0IHRoZSBiZXN0IHNvbHV0aW9uIGZvciBhbnkgcGFydGljdWxhciBuZXR3 b3JrLCB0ZWNobm9sb2d5LCB2ZW5kb3IsIG9yIHVzZXIu4oCdW1JGQyA3MTU0XQ0KDQpXaGlsc3Qg SSB0ZW5kIHRvIGFncmVlIHdpdGggbXVjaCBvZiB0aGUgcG9zdCB0aGF0IHRoZSBhYm92ZSBsaXN0 IGlzIGV4dHJhY3RlZCBmcm9tLCBJIHF1ZXN0aW9uIHRoZSB0aGlyZCBidWxsZXQgcG9pbnQgKOKA nEEgd2lkZSByYW5nZSBvZiBwZXJzcGVjdGl2ZXMgaXMgcmVwcmVzZW50ZWQsIHJlZmxlY3Rpbmcg aW50ZXJlc3RzIGZyb20gbXVsdGlwbGUgaW5kdXN0cnkgc2VjdG9ycywgYWNhZGVtaWEsIGdvdmVy bm1lbnQgYW5kIG5vbi1nb3Zlcm5tZW50YWwgb3JnYW5pemF0aW9ucyAoTkdPcyksIGZyb20gYXJv dW5kIHRoZSBnbG9iZSkuICBNYW55IG9mIHRoZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyB0aGF0IEnigJl2ZSBwYXJ0 aWNpcGF0ZWQgaW4gYXJlIGRvbWluYXRlZCBieSBlbmdpbmVlcnMgZnJvbSBhIHJlbGF0aXZlbHkg c21hbGwgc2V0IG9mIHRlY2ggY29tcGFuaWVzLCB3aXRoIGxpdHRsZSBvciBubyByZXByZXNlbnRh dGlvbiBmcm9tIGluZHVzdHJ5IHNlY3RvcnMg4oCTIGluZGVlZCBpbiBtYW55IGNhc2VzLCB0aGVy ZSBpcyBhbHNvIHJlbGF0aXZlbHkgbGltaXRlZCBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW9uIGZyb20gdGVjaCBjb21w YW55IGVuZ2luZWVycyB3aXRoIGEgZGVlcCBrbm93bGVkZ2Ugb2YgbWFya2V0cyBvdXRzaWRlIG9m IE5vcnRoIEFtZXJpY2EuICBHb3Zlcm5tZW50LCBhY2FkZW1pYSBhbmQgTkdPIHBhcnRpY2lwYXRp b24gaXMgcHJldHR5IGxpbWl0ZWQgaW4gdGhvc2UgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgdG9vLg0KDQpJcyB0aGlz IGEgcHJvYmxlbT8gIFdlbGwsIGl0IGRvZXMgbWVhbiB0aGF0IHRoZSBkaXZlcnNpdHkgb2YgdGhv dWdodCBpcyBmYXIgbW9yZSByZXN0cmljdGVkIHRoYW4gaXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGFuZCBpdCBsZWFk cyB0byBzaXR1YXRpb25zIHdoZXJlIHByb3Bvc2FscyBhcmUgYWR2YW5jZWQgdG8gZG8gdGhpbmdz IHdoZXJlIHRoZSBwcm9wb25lbnRzIGFyZSBlaXRoZXIgdW5hd2FyZSBvciB1bmludGVyZXN0ZWQg aW4gdGhlIHJlYWwgd29ybGQgb3BlcmF0aW9uYWwgaW1wYWN0cyBvZiB0aGVpciBhY3Rpb25zLiAg SXQgY291bGQgYmUgYXJndWVkIHRoYXQgc29tZSBvZiB0aGVzZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyB3b3VsZCBi ZSBvZiBkaXJlY3QgY29tbWVyY2lhbCBiZW5lZml0IHRvIG9uZSBvciBtb3JlIHRlY2ggY29tcGFu aWVzIGV2ZW4gdGhvdWdoIHRoZSBzYW1lIGFjdGl2aXRpZXMgd291bGQsIGF0IHRoZSB2ZXJ5IGxl YXN0LCBpbmNvbnZlbmllbmNlIGEgZ3JlYXQgbWFueSBvdGhlciBvcmdhbmlzYXRpb25zLg0KDQpX aGV0aGVyIHRoaXMgc2l0dWF0aW9uIGFtb3VudHMgdG8gYW55IGZvcm0gb2YgZXhwb3N1cmUgdG8g YW50aXRydXN0LXJlbGF0ZWQgY2hhbGxlbmdlcyBmb3IgZWl0aGVyIHRoZSBJRVRGIG9yIGl0cyBw YXJ0aWNpcGFudHMgaXMgYSBtYXR0ZXIgZm9yIG90aGVycyB0byBqdWRnZS4gIElycmVzcGVjdGl2 ZSBvZiB0aGF0LCBob3dldmVyLCBpdCBkb2VzIHNlZW0gdG8gbWUgdG8gYmUgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRo YXQgbmVlZHMgdG8gYmUgYWRkcmVzc2VkIGlmIG1lYW5pbmdmdWwgcHJvZ3Jlc3MgaXMgdG8gYmUg bWFkZSBib3RoIHdpdGggZGl2ZXJzaXR5IGFuZCB3aXRoIGJyaW5naW5nIFJGQyA4ODkwIHRvIGxp ZmUuDQoNCg0KQW5kcmV3DQoNCg== --_000_LO2P265MB03999128D66BB9DC34636BADC2709LO2P265MB0399GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTUgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPHN0eWxl PjwhLS0NCi8qIEZvbnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 V2luZ2RpbmdzOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjUgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDA7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0K CXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2IDMg MiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDE1 IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3JtYWws IGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGNtOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZTox MS4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFpbFN0 eWxlMTkNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtcmVwbHk7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNh bGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7DQoJY29sb3I6d2luZG93dGV4dDt9DQouTXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVsdA0K CXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpleHBvcnQtb25seTsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O30NCkBwYWdl IFdvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtzaXplOjYxMi4wcHQgNzkyLjBwdDsNCgltYXJnaW46NzIuMHB0IDcy LjBwdCA3Mi4wcHQgNzIuMHB0O30NCmRpdi5Xb3JkU2VjdGlvbjENCgl7cGFnZTpXb3JkU2VjdGlv bjE7fQ0KLyogTGlzdCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGxpc3QgbDANCgl7bXNvLWxpc3QtaWQ6ODQ2 MDE4MTQ4Ow0KCW1zby1saXN0LXR5cGU6aHlicmlkOw0KCW1zby1saXN0LXRlbXBsYXRlLWlkczoz NDcyMjQwNDIgMTUzMjI0MDcwMCAxMzQ4MDc1NTUgMTM0ODA3NTU3IDEzNDgwNzU1MyAxMzQ4MDc1 NTUgMTM0ODA3NTU3IDEzNDgwNzU1MyAxMzQ4MDc1NTUgMTM0ODA3NTU3O30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxl dmVsMQ0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtc3RhcnQtYXQ6MDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpi dWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674OYOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0K CW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0Ow0K CWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OldpbmdkaW5nczsNCgltc28tZmFyZWFzdC1mb250LWZhbWlseToiVGltZXMg TmV3IFJvbWFuIjsNCgltc28tYmlkaS1mb250LWZhbWlseTpDYWxpYnJpO30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxl dmVsMg0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ6 bzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9u OmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ291cmllciBOZXci O30NCkBsaXN0IGwwOmxldmVsMw0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJ bXNvLWxldmVsLXRleHQ674KnOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZl bC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFt aWx5OldpbmdkaW5nczt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDQNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3Jt YXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CtzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0b3A6bm9u ZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6LTE4LjBw dDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpTeW1ib2w7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw1DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1u dW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDpvOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWIt c3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVu dDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDb3VyaWVyIE5ldyI7fQ0KQGxpc3QgbDA6bGV2ZWw2 DQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXItZm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgqc7 DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjps ZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6V2luZ2RpbmdzO30NCkBs aXN0IGwwOmxldmVsNw0KCXttc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLWZvcm1hdDpidWxsZXQ7DQoJbXNvLWxl dmVsLXRleHQ674K3Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10YWItc3RvcDpub25lOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1i ZXItcG9zaXRpb246bGVmdDsNCgl0ZXh0LWluZGVudDotMTguMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OlN5 bWJvbDt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDgNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0 Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Om87DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9wOm5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxl dmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0xOC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1m YW1pbHk6IkNvdXJpZXIgTmV3Ijt9DQpAbGlzdCBsMDpsZXZlbDkNCgl7bXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJl ci1mb3JtYXQ6YnVsbGV0Ow0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC10ZXh0Ou+CpzsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGFiLXN0 b3A6bm9uZTsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtbnVtYmVyLXBvc2l0aW9uOmxlZnQ7DQoJdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6 LTE4LjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpXaW5nZGluZ3M7fQ0Kb2wNCgl7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTow Y207fQ0KdWwNCgl7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowY207fQ0KLS0+PC9zdHlsZT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBt c28gOV0+PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBlZGVmYXVsdHMgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQiIHNwaWRtYXg9IjEwMjYi IC8+DQo8L3htbD48IVtlbmRpZl0tLT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28gOV0+PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBl bGF5b3V0IHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0Ij4NCjxvOmlkbWFwIHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0IiBkYXRhPSIxIiAvPg0K PC9vOnNoYXBlbGF5b3V0PjwveG1sPjwhW2VuZGlmXS0tPg0KPC9oZWFkPg0KPGJvZHkgbGFuZz0i RU4tR0IiIGxpbms9ImJsdWUiIHZsaW5rPSJwdXJwbGUiIHN0eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdyYXA6YnJlYWst d29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+ PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQiPk9uIDEwLzA0LzIwMjEsIGF0IDAwOjQyLCA8 L3NwYW4+DQo8c3BhbiBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQiPkpheSBE YWxleSAmbHQ7amF5QGlldGYub3JnJmd0OyA8L3NwYW4+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZTox Mi4wcHQiPndyb3RlOjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxkaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4N CjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxiPjxzcGFuIGxhbmc9IkVOLVVTIiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1z aXplOjEyLjBwdCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9iPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRp dj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij4m Z3Q7IFRoZSB0bDtkciBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgY2hhcmFjdGVyaXN0aWNzIG9mIHRo ZSBJRVRGIHB1dCB1cyBpbiBhIHZlcnkgc3Ryb25nIHBvc2l0aW9uLCBxdWl0ZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQg ZnJvbSBtYW55IG90aGVyIG9yZ2FuaXNhdGlvbnM6PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9k aXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZTox Mi4wcHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNs YXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij4mZ3Q7ICogSUVU RiBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW9uIGlzIGZyZWUgYW5kIG9wZW4gdG8gYWxsIGludGVyZXN0ZWQgaW5kaXZp ZHVhbHMuJm5ic3A7PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xh c3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQiPiZndDsgKiBQYXJ0 aWNpcGFudHMgZW5nYWdlIGluIHRoZWlyIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgY2FwYWNpdHksIG5vdCBhcyBjb21w YW55IHJlcHJlc2VudGF0aXZlcy4mbmJzcDs8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4N CjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBw dCI+Jmd0OyAqIEEgd2lkZSByYW5nZSBvZiBwZXJzcGVjdGl2ZXMgaXMgcmVwcmVzZW50ZWQsIHJl ZmxlY3RpbmcgaW50ZXJlc3RzIGZyb20gbXVsdGlwbGUgaW5kdXN0cnkgc2VjdG9ycywgYWNhZGVt aWEsIGdvdmVybm1lbnQgYW5kIG5vbi1nb3Zlcm5tZW50YWwgb3JnYW5pemF0aW9ucyAoTkdPcyks IGZyb20gYXJvdW5kIHRoZSBnbG9iZS4mbmJzcDs8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rp dj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEy LjBwdCI+Jmd0OyAqIElFVEYgcHJvY2VkdXJhbCBydWxlcywgd2hpY2ggaW5jbHVkZSByb2J1c3Qg YXBwZWFsIG9wdGlvbnMsIGFyZSB3ZWxsLWRvY3VtZW50ZWQgaW4gcHVibGljIG1hdGVyaWFscywg YW5kIHJpZ29yb3VzbHkgZm9sbG93ZWQuJm5ic3A7PG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9k aXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZTox Mi4wcHQiPiZndDsgKiBJRVRGIGFjdGl2aXRpZXMgYXJlIGNvbmR1Y3RlZCB3aXRoIGV4dHJlbWUg dHJhbnNwYXJlbmN5LCBpbiBwdWJsaWMgZm9ydW1zLiZuYnNwOzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwv cD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250 LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij4mZ3Q7ICogRGVjaXNpb24tbWFraW5nIHJlcXVpcmVzIGFjaGlldmluZyBi cm9hZCBjb25zZW5zdXMgdmlhIHRoZXNlIHB1YmxpYyBwcm9jZXNzZXMuJm5ic3A7PG86cD48L286 cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4g c3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQiPiZndDsgKiBJRVRG4oCZcyBkaXNjbG9zdXJlLWZvY3Vz ZWQgaW50ZWxsZWN0dWFsIHByb3BlcnR5IHJpZ2h0cyBwb2xpY2llcyBjYXJlZnVsbHkgYW5kIHRy YW5zcGFyZW50bHkgYmFsYW5jZSB0aGUgaW50ZXJlc3RzIG9mIHN0YW5kYXJkcyBjb250cmlidXRv cnMgYW5kIHN0YW5kYXJkcyBhZG9wdGVycy4mbmJzcDs8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8 L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXpl OjEyLjBwdCI+Jmd0OyAqIEZ1bmRhbWVudGFsbHksIOKAnElFVEYgcGFydGljaXBhbnRzIHVzZSB0 aGVpciBiZXN0IGVuZ2luZWVyaW5nIGp1ZGdtZW50IHRvIGZpbmQgdGhlIGJlc3Qgc29sdXRpb24g Zm9yIHRoZSB3aG9sZSBJbnRlcm5ldCwgbm90IGp1c3QgdGhlIGJlc3Qgc29sdXRpb24gZm9yIGFu eSBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIG5ldHdvcmssIHRlY2hub2xvZ3ksIHZlbmRvciwgb3IgdXNlci7igJ1bUkZD DQogNzE1NF08bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0i TXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286 cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFu IHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij5XaGlsc3QgSSB0ZW5kIHRvIGFncmVlIHdpdGggbXVj aCBvZiB0aGUgcG9zdCB0aGF0IHRoZSBhYm92ZSBsaXN0IGlzIGV4dHJhY3RlZCBmcm9tLCBJIHF1 ZXN0aW9uIHRoZSB0aGlyZCBidWxsZXQgcG9pbnQgKOKAnEEgd2lkZSByYW5nZSBvZiBwZXJzcGVj dGl2ZXMgaXMgcmVwcmVzZW50ZWQsIHJlZmxlY3RpbmcgaW50ZXJlc3RzIGZyb20gbXVsdGlwbGUg aW5kdXN0cnkNCiBzZWN0b3JzLCBhY2FkZW1pYSwgZ292ZXJubWVudCBhbmQgbm9uLWdvdmVybm1l bnRhbCBvcmdhbml6YXRpb25zIChOR09zKSwgZnJvbSBhcm91bmQgdGhlIGdsb2JlKS4mbmJzcDsg TWFueSBvZiB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgdGhhdCBJ4oCZdmUgcGFydGljaXBhdGVkIGluIGFyZSBk b21pbmF0ZWQgYnkgZW5naW5lZXJzIGZyb20gYSByZWxhdGl2ZWx5IHNtYWxsIHNldCBvZiB0ZWNo IGNvbXBhbmllcywgd2l0aCBsaXR0bGUgb3Igbm8gcmVwcmVzZW50YXRpb24gZnJvbQ0KIGluZHVz dHJ5IHNlY3RvcnMg4oCTIGluZGVlZCBpbiBtYW55IGNhc2VzLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBhbHNvIHJlbGF0 aXZlbHkgbGltaXRlZCBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW9uIGZyb20gdGVjaCBjb21wYW55IGVuZ2luZWVycyB3 aXRoIGEgZGVlcCBrbm93bGVkZ2Ugb2YgbWFya2V0cyBvdXRzaWRlIG9mIE5vcnRoIEFtZXJpY2Eu Jm5ic3A7IEdvdmVybm1lbnQsIGFjYWRlbWlhIGFuZCBOR08gcGFydGljaXBhdGlvbiBpcyBwcmV0 dHkgbGltaXRlZCBpbiB0aG9zZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucw0KIHRvby4mbmJzcDsgPG86cD48L286cD48 L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZTox Mi4wcHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwi PjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij5JcyB0aGlzIGEgcHJvYmxlbT8mbmJzcDsg V2VsbCwgaXQgZG9lcyBtZWFuIHRoYXQgdGhlIGRpdmVyc2l0eSBvZiB0aG91Z2h0IGlzIGZhciBt b3JlIHJlc3RyaWN0ZWQgdGhhbiBpdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgYW5kIGl0IGxlYWRzIHRvIHNpdHVhdGlv bnMgd2hlcmUgcHJvcG9zYWxzIGFyZSBhZHZhbmNlZCB0byBkbyB0aGluZ3Mgd2hlcmUgdGhlIHBy b3BvbmVudHMgYXJlIGVpdGhlcg0KIHVuYXdhcmUgb3IgdW5pbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIHRoZSByZWFs IHdvcmxkIG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsIGltcGFjdHMgb2YgdGhlaXIgYWN0aW9ucy4mbmJzcDsgSXQgY291 bGQgYmUgYXJndWVkIHRoYXQgc29tZSBvZiB0aGVzZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyB3b3VsZCBiZSBvZiBk aXJlY3QgY29tbWVyY2lhbCBiZW5lZml0IHRvIG9uZSBvciBtb3JlIHRlY2ggY29tcGFuaWVzIGV2 ZW4gdGhvdWdoIHRoZSBzYW1lIGFjdGl2aXRpZXMgd291bGQsIGF0IHRoZSB2ZXJ5IGxlYXN0LA0K IGluY29udmVuaWVuY2UgYSBncmVhdCBtYW55IG90aGVyIG9yZ2FuaXNhdGlvbnMuJm5ic3A7IDxv OnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJm b250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0i TXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdCI+V2hldGhlciB0aGlzIHNp dHVhdGlvbiBhbW91bnRzIHRvIGFueSBmb3JtIG9mIGV4cG9zdXJlIHRvIGFudGl0cnVzdC1yZWxh dGVkIGNoYWxsZW5nZXMgZm9yIGVpdGhlciB0aGUgSUVURiBvciBpdHMgcGFydGljaXBhbnRzIGlz IGEgbWF0dGVyIGZvciBvdGhlcnMgdG8ganVkZ2UuJm5ic3A7IElycmVzcGVjdGl2ZSBvZiB0aGF0 LCBob3dldmVyLCBpdCBkb2VzIHNlZW0NCiB0byBtZSB0byBiZSBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCBuZWVk cyB0byBiZSBhZGRyZXNzZWQgaWYgbWVhbmluZ2Z1bCBwcm9ncmVzcyBpcyB0byBiZSBtYWRlIGJv dGggd2l0aCBkaXZlcnNpdHkgYW5kIHdpdGggYnJpbmdpbmcgUkZDIDg4OTAgdG8gbGlmZS4mbmJz cDsNCjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0 eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBj bGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdCI+PG86cD4mbmJz cDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZv bnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQiPkFuZHJldyA8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0i TXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286 cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_LO2P265MB03999128D66BB9DC34636BADC2709LO2P265MB0399GBRP_-- From nobody Mon Apr 12 21:17:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E0943A136E for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:17:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DkBca5fCF-Wx for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B324D3A136C for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id c3so6898979ils.5 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:16:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UbV5rc4QDuEebTYcPWDDCqSn2yL8nBCJMtf8yKkJmqE=; b=m4GoBPOoW2XI/6ijCO5muf8PntMaT4e4c4pk2hflrIWK4W9Jvx3zFj29d7j2qlBON6 9Jlg1vBxpB5xJztCRaPtR2HFulVkAXDuUJnmVhQjdyq/891GfmE8AXbrNIyKl5/fJCP4 eucZHMTOKi4EN788qw7XOr2RivlQhZKOgo53qR8r4VXGMtqdd7/8iFrBCVqOcXE7B2tA IBI6sOp+MxKfttDEmq2oQddGBVChjj1m5cKEnYfD5DQftv56NkoLgQU52pu9sIXFWx5A p0NtYL54TEwQN9X67YDzmHrz5PYiK76BdxY3cfHfN74GEObs2KOfSlLykNpG6UnwAYSz B79g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UbV5rc4QDuEebTYcPWDDCqSn2yL8nBCJMtf8yKkJmqE=; b=aCbPL657hdy/m0LUKJXLoHP64ablXK+c9dwo7UCy0fOpDnpvXNvj3jgvx9UQosOiUC BR0M8g+Ytmv20YYzAV5U034SGus4PcNO/dIVxAXJS0gdHSSOdxwJZUlIvYGdKDkDM8KU IEKvocr3kE2BwjdGASKZtd5UqT38NecP/NmU4dpXsvctqMVm2Ygzdv36b6gRYzy4NLCN lq1n6hoi0Rw9jaU7RRgEYtkB9vUog3L0niHVE74fuif6Ogp1IEZsARalobaorOBHAkiK uMGCRO32dDq7sRP+/6Y6/yeIE31G8UdtM1H1wMvkcj5tlwIDPQrIYxpF/qz5ZZAEzupp yN+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5302dO5311crUskXsxac8OUce6snpG5FXpTERpM57IUVOloj1giG /t04nG+YsK45f/J2C8RmKTw+sQ4YRBrs7XKI+Bg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzUYQCCej/JVJrH+I+ElbUc6I/7SR/P6nge6KZWYgf7t8yoRtITyZIRzFCaCdhs2UCVmCpkS1oh1lQwF1D4uBo= X-Received: by 2002:a92:ca0a:: with SMTP id j10mr2483758ils.73.1618287415891; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:16:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:16:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: Pete Resnick Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000919e2b05bfd2e608" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 04:17:02 -0000 --000000000000919e2b05bfd2e608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, This exchange is actually kind of helpful. I think I might add "self-appointed stats keeper" messages to the list of unwelcome messages in my draft. If a community decides they want those messages, that's fine too. thanks, Rob On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 11:47 AM Pete Resnick wrote: > John, > > You were requested last Augst not to post these to the gendispatch list. > What caused it to be sent again? > > pr > > > -- > Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ > All connections to the world are tenuous at best > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000919e2b05bfd2e608 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

This exchange is actually kind of h= elpful. I think I might add "self-appointed stats keeper" message= s to the list of unwelcome messages in my draft. If a community decides the= y want those messages, that's fine too.

thanks= ,
Rob


On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 11:47 AM Pete R= esnick <resnick@episteme.net= > wrote:
John= ,

You were requested last Augst not to post these to the gendispatch list. What caused it to be sent again?

pr


--
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000919e2b05bfd2e608-- From nobody Tue Apr 13 14:53:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78953A1189; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:53:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZvUiXaIjVbei; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A5123A1187; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id y16so12340973pfc.5; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QoZHYGBosE/fqnJCzG437QhALV5oDzTgCAZZgdl4Nzw=; b=qkeA/wX7lmB+gOiqpEoMmOdXI+9IHJnrvm1EzmQA/n765DPhTqcvYh+jy3IO1uk5q9 RYfN3ax+XRvKk4UVQPNxAOuBIWSRTU5mxiEZ7DQs/pCfr/oCqX6zkg9cZ5QpsUAvdU23 f+B7PoJtqymwdg0HpM44l2P4R9/Kc5cLnFVXQTFCkK95MzrYUDxUSm3W6tnvvUxsihMM k8FVOUdQ7FNuLFG8e9ij1aoPONifS+X/EfDaEZfysJfGpz+DUcIA9NcyCms3Zmc8pUzF qlI2CDiVbjkfF5cMHMpMcaxBgiUKSHJS6/716hbwHMK08idws/LszqdbgmE5CAM55BwQ tJDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QoZHYGBosE/fqnJCzG437QhALV5oDzTgCAZZgdl4Nzw=; b=U4BcGeQN2Ma/Prw0WFVph4VW6CkljcWLXvtGc87waTDMlIQzmC+UHVGegIdArIUrGG wy1BFCbrFyWi1ulB8loZo/ABmKKx+xvwMPHLRXGiDRBYs/8j/XGnuunhB6enJdZJyLrz tHmFkjvmzxgYwIo/2eTweRY7U2/YRmKkdImrzewNgPkWOIOelmNN8ewrIP7sjlRI+eyx Nf5efr/gz3RJM9xU3puCUy4nBStR6d8GabAUlAEj8ikQGfs/BT6JOBeTcs964HpPS7dq N74MmHkz/nJWm8HUcr/rly/DXurDREqfp8/p/DSR5tT5sNtSpTDqziFkWiOwl7HlME2S w8VQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533B7NOfuGQlRbxK6TukQ7PTX5PDLL3M7aFv/C7QJlXu0I8mtX5V eLyVm2FeludCUFwfFqdf11g/EwIXie7YNA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxZXadjKUOQ/ncLNiS7W5NbcQMX6oEFbqGMWbHjByh6mOBKY/qP9q3dagEAwKRP7HFbXrLpoQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:74c:: with SMTP id 73mr34057805pgh.200.1618350791971; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b21sm3170744pji.39.2021.04.13.14.53.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:53:11 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <20210413200128.D5C3472D2739@ary.qy> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:53:07 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210413200128.D5C3472D2739@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 21:53:19 -0000 On 14-Apr-21 08:01, John Levine wrote: > It appears that Salz, Rich said: >> -=-=-=-=-=- >> I believe it is important for the IETF to say something that has the force of IETF consensus behind it. Instructions to the RFC Editor have not, and I would >> be against doing so in this case because the lack of consensus makes the editorial changes less well-justified. >> >> If the consensus is that we should not do this, I would be highly disappointed, but I would accept it as a consensus decision. > > Language policing is not part of the RFC Editor's job. That may be true today, but when we have a new regime for the RFC Series model it might change, or at least, this whole issue might become part of the style guide. > If the IETF wants to set language standards, that is fine, s/standards/guidelines/ > but it is up to the IETF itself to follow and if need be enforce those standards, not anyone else. I hope you would apply that statement to all RFC streams, not just the IETF stream. Regards Brian From nobody Tue Apr 13 15:10:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186CD3A1259 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:10:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hSXHgrioA8rz for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AA9D3A1257 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBB8E0900B1; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 17:10:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NtQp6ANN8ugZ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 17:10:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.27] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A8724E0900A8; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 17:10:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Pete Resnick To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 17:10:40 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5786) Message-ID: <96204CB3-C9E8-4EBB-BBB2-EB59E2F316F3@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20210413200128.D5C3472D2739@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:10:48 -0000 [Removing ietf@ietf.org] Was there a particular reason you copied GENDISPATCH on your message? Did you perhaps intend the terminology list? pr On 13 Apr 2021, at 16:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 14-Apr-21 08:01, John Levine wrote: >> It appears that Salz, Rich said: >>> -=-=-=-=-=- >>> I believe it is important for the IETF to say something that has the >>> force of IETF consensus behind it. Instructions to the RFC Editor >>> have not, and I would >>> be against doing so in this case because the lack of consensus makes >>> the editorial changes less well-justified. >>> >>> If the consensus is that we should not do this, I would be highly >>> disappointed, but I would accept it as a consensus decision. >> >> Language policing is not part of the RFC Editor's job. > > That may be true today, but when we have a new regime for the RFC > Series model it might change, or at least, this whole issue might > become part of the style guide. > >> If the IETF wants to set language standards, that is fine, > > s/standards/guidelines/ > >> but it is up to the IETF itself to follow and if need be enforce >> those standards, not anyone else. > > I hope you would apply that statement to all RFC streams, not just the > IETF stream. > > Regards > Brian -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Tue Apr 13 15:27:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615DA3A12E7 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:27:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gnEtkDYZnYll for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 452983A1341 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id i81so18597578oif.6 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:26:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=O9LHG08UokX7YyclBFX8nEFR8hAVeV8IHsWEaEASGM8=; b=R75TTK83Pyvc6VPztt9MI+W8rBCWvu/xXlmue/VEE3xO8KcduecoteCez0sNG3GtXd Jtquj45FEpuVNnhJy7AwCtZB57yIEmVyDIwc8ShE5mW+nMCqUdLUgSt/xx4THgqfM4Rc 4y6xzDywS9AnWehczkpUExBaypitI723Au+N0FQ8/pC9t2C77U3hr0maQzTjwEo+RbCX rRxRsTuJAiqAXufFXrlQFGfmCZza6Hi4UexIuvQqPPSmGoHTBc1Owz+0ePUKBd6p1FMB WeSF81K59PGkZG16fDH3Xy66PIkSHIO1zn8iJIrHWuv/WLHMViKa85lbe1quWu8/+Hq0 B0jw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=O9LHG08UokX7YyclBFX8nEFR8hAVeV8IHsWEaEASGM8=; b=uSYkXg89UPBGtuojx2izAwtGnKaYKSX91n8yETyjzs6JUnOoPz10cap9Z14xMksTgS FY4IQRAN26U4D72R/WdXz6AWFwBKvjA/f48emDVR1QAxuvfgp39Z/rMrD9Ch9ArGFOWe 2Zoo2rarFuD5FOe59mhNkDaV8y8GF8gWJaBM5Ss6UZc58KjzBZwVsOdgIScHjelB/Pgr BgHj/AAVunhNDAbsBthB+kTtEK/0W28OMV1aRW4IVVvJcU5Q1hN15E0iJYhxzmTJcfdh ijcfwb4kbxQHR5cGiIfbC68wrzhijEQyiZZYP5DWVE6fKApYaTVuxmoik48qmkvHvdGN 8Nog== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kY/CRiYD4aiChV9RrFxHa35o0/dVhcB8EFLAKstzXdPezQnck gLxeKYpsd8/sXd2yi+i4fCqGoHBqnAvH5Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzgGaoyFObHYhobWs8s/1krTyptn8YzZennl+wqz70m/dS6vR/WlZBE9D+BSEEV7XY+v7iAKQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1914:: with SMTP id mp20mr21335pjb.180.1618352451219; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s9sm12939790pfc.192.2021.04.13.15.20.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Apr 2021 15:20:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Pete Resnick Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <20210413200128.D5C3472D2739@ary.qy> <96204CB3-C9E8-4EBB-BBB2-EB59E2F316F3@episteme.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <6af53861-1819-383c-8b72-abd18454da79@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 10:20:46 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <96204CB3-C9E8-4EBB-BBB2-EB59E2F316F3@episteme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 22:27:07 -0000 I did Reply All. Sorry, should have checked. Regards Brian On 14-Apr-21 10:10, Pete Resnick wrote: > [Removing ietf@ietf.org] > > Was there a particular reason you copied GENDISPATCH on your message? > Did you perhaps intend the terminology list? > > pr > > On 13 Apr 2021, at 16:53, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> On 14-Apr-21 08:01, John Levine wrote: >>> It appears that Salz, Rich said: >>>> -=-=-=-=-=- >>>> I believe it is important for the IETF to say something that has the >>>> force of IETF consensus behind it. Instructions to the RFC Editor >>>> have not, and I would >>>> be against doing so in this case because the lack of consensus makes >>>> the editorial changes less well-justified. >>>> >>>> If the consensus is that we should not do this, I would be highly >>>> disappointed, but I would accept it as a consensus decision. >>> >>> Language policing is not part of the RFC Editor's job. >> >> That may be true today, but when we have a new regime for the RFC >> Series model it might change, or at least, this whole issue might >> become part of the style guide. >> >>> If the IETF wants to set language standards, that is fine, >> >> s/standards/guidelines/ >> >>> but it is up to the IETF itself to follow and if need be enforce >>> those standards, not anyone else. >> >> I hope you would apply that statement to all RFC streams, not just the >> IETF stream. >> >> Regards >> Brian > > From nobody Tue Apr 13 18:30:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DE73A105A; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 18:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UeyC7pHn5Dc9; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 18:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A0AA3A1057; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 18:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1lWUMB-000BUQ-8m; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 21:30:15 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 21:30:09 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter , gendispatch@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <38A512EFDED56AD84451586D@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <20210413200128.D5C3472D2739@ary.qy> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 01:30:23 -0000 --On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 09:53 +1200 Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> If the consensus is that we should not do this, I would be >>> highly disappointed, but I would accept it as a consensus >>> decision. >> >> Language policing is not part of the RFC Editor's job. > > That may be true today, but when we have a new regime for the > RFC Series model it might change, or at least, this whole > issue might become part of the style guide. Actually, Brian, putting "language policing" aside and instead discussing control of the vocabulary used in RFCs, that has always been part of the RFC Editor's job. If we were now going to say "the RFC Editor is responsible for choices about technical terminology consistent with the rest of the Series, for the difference between British and American English, for consistency of decisions about sentence structure and punctuation choices, etc., but not for any words the TERM WG might choose to put on its list... well, we could do that but I fear it could lead us into a silly state, especially if, as your other note suggested, the vocabularies were not coordinated across the Series. For that reason, I see it as much more plausible if any of this becomes advice to the community (for sorting out terminology and vocabulary before things go over the wall to the RFC Editor) but leaving finsl text in the hands of the RFC Editor Function... and ultimately getting whatever guidance is adopted into the style manual seems just right. john From nobody Wed Apr 14 15:56:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CD63A236B for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:56:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oQjrHUlEUu_4 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE7EF3A2365 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id k25so22312676iob.6 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:55:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1a1i47Qb4g5Xe7fWfU0R5xlGoA2KGsfppK89Pwc28Rg=; b=qN6B/UeTRxFfXfzXEp0u9faIjx7hHUSZV7BQnbmEYeSjUinUauzGRHyRZpReyx1QIG bASjE0TxJynvw5Z3lg0ILet5Jegt/vYjYkixCrp1XsGivIiUDNaJuFqjUCvQka2NKSU0 ipCgr77ZE9Q3PauJbj1Ss8I9MXUUDaGlzeZd68J6e6YmZsabTUsOAdG8+Z42uwH539xP qb8clM/Va18u5EQy8q6cD6JMFaxPlcwmJIfX3+R2haVW2VpWnZRIi0e6U0QCK2jPjHq3 iki7t7Ede8id6Znn1kCoFNU4sJnNlTmII1hwMb6INOV/xzG8q/8F3+pqKvxFbDwrEVuh pBYQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1a1i47Qb4g5Xe7fWfU0R5xlGoA2KGsfppK89Pwc28Rg=; b=CQkeqq+3DmZgMn7eOzTXgvMpMefQVD7dfZ3J+g0u5ORKbxWnjRQO8fYjSSgOgQuUAP h68vi646NBExtxeA+Ae+Xb97iR5XPjciTUz53HPKS2xQXYWUP9II4FanWQwwCegTd84o nFLUlDLbOuivRscBQD6sL/bRXghSvLcHljjoKApg5XCzTWTsjwjySJs+RhH9WOgax8mY PaKD+LtRESwUo42guDD198fCrKdeBGLYGqP7FdBSs9pGW1r2Vai5LNrie+Ns/NF1tZTD bK51X/69QOuZTZrBjDphR7uXovZstuyg0NC3NGHTkVuCShFK4kkRCJTFDvFSWF+jOfar zE5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530PK5Y1qMsQaVmfcdZd42Fday/xl453SHFhZrUv+xKceSROgpu3 FCiZ0TPzcPxJEfjIkygYZR+XQ8025/PA30kQPBg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxMVnDtZTATnMCvKyJMUdeRCO4fHC5ZulGpDgpJHuEjfLoAn1Tg/20Cuy3Vr4Kbhu8RmzTbpuckzbahnfUOZag= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:d4e:: with SMTP id d14mr224834jak.103.1618440956212; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:55:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:55:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: Pete Resnick Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048f7a105bff6a6e0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 22:56:03 -0000 --00000000000048f7a105bff6a6e0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I also found the recent traffic on the IETF general list instructive. I think those that participated feel that anonymous comments on a NY Times article represent something one can determine consensus from, or at least something substantive to argue about. To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference it is now (as suggested in other drafts). thanks, Rob On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 9:16 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > Hi, > > This exchange is actually kind of helpful. I think I might add > "self-appointed stats keeper" messages to the list of unwelcome messages in > my draft. If a community decides they want those messages, that's fine too. > > thanks, > Rob > > > On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 11:47 AM Pete Resnick > wrote: > >> John, >> >> You were requested last Augst not to post these to the gendispatch list. >> What caused it to be sent again? >> >> pr >> >> >> -- >> Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ >> All connections to the world are tenuous at best >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > --00000000000048f7a105bff6a6e0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I also found the recent traffic on the IETF general l= ist instructive. I think those that participated feel that anonymous commen= ts on a NY Times article represent something one can determine consensus fr= om, or at least something substantive to argue about.

<= div>To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference it= is now (as suggested in other drafts).

thanks,
Rob


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 9:16 PM Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hi,
<= br>
This exchange is actually kind of helpful. I think I might ad= d "self-appointed stats keeper" messages to the list of unwelcome= messages in my draft. If a community decides they want those messages, tha= t's fine too.

thanks,
Rob
=

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 11:47 AM Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net> wro= te:
John,

You were requested last Augst not to post these to the gendispatch list. What caused it to be sent again?

pr


--
Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--00000000000048f7a105bff6a6e0-- From nobody Wed Apr 14 16:27:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504173A2453 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:27:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f7CH-suwTQQj for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0689F3A2450 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QRK05X24UH27M@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 18:27:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QRK00L5KUG7HS@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:26:31 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:27:00 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: Rob Sayre Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210414] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 23:27:06 -0000 On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > I also found the recent traffic on the IETF general list instructive. > I think those that participated feel that anonymous comments on a NY > Times article represent something one can determine consensus from, or > at least something substantive to argue about.   Well then you think wrong because that's not what people were saying. What they were saying was that if even the NYT readership (or at least those who bother enough to write comments) do not have a consensus view on the matter then it is reasonable to assume that there is not broad consensus on the matter (the opposite case was noted to be invalid, that being that if there was consensus among the NYT readers it would not, necessarily, imply broad consensus. A subtle but obvious difference).   As a mental exercise, s/New York Times/Fox News/g and try it again. See how that works? If some self-selected group of homogeneous thinkers don't agree.... > > To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference > it is now (as suggested in other drafts).   To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a draft to cancel the IETF list.   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Fri Apr 16 16:36:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B510C3A3A93 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 16:36:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TRRkt6o_lnNx for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 16:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1392B3A3A8F for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 16:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id v123so22430067ioe.10 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 16:36:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jQqz0FZk5W2Kmu/bxBKSosnTFfin1Brm0x9xRvUbK5k=; b=Tl5u0tDiPMFBIyQpjpWfeCuyulMjuYMRpIiVnsGgBNd6TjQYI3XeHuMNWdHLAVdCt8 JThDU4xvmk8al6vtApTDlp6ZunK2sWoLyNH4MiZ9822KNHI0UoNhFmvEAGPXqHCv+D7Z CRzRUqAj+KmXXdA++wdurw7BMKUyAPJg3tkTjRn/AU5AwSQwY2bu4CNEgTXqU4UhEk2A i0JfTJpognluPuSIyHJPRRijMtI94VRE+H4zGMmeCJbMKtPvKTQL5+hR6CMxtCOaKRcF 3au146SkIAGzzLwfIXYJhbSAG0WeVAZIu3WK70jgW0Xbm6mnoIZy/17c4FwP2hYEBNzr OiKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jQqz0FZk5W2Kmu/bxBKSosnTFfin1Brm0x9xRvUbK5k=; b=on6+WB82YcBcDcSyc7hdq9bKeE/N21b6cMzqQXvJ79sB7OLTJrV9tiiocVwSOtWkXt qc4vQukJfR9oYyogB+2FALzAS5HEer7hPQYHbPZH41xwmT1Qw4H2cejijvcEnlnzalIC bNlpKRDW8PHWu4OQIBOAsukYMOrcZhLlhMV+QvaSwgxnFz7Zd3+h6+BXc9Y+2xIbpSc6 332k80arTaYhSQ/d5FN9dUOA6CHRrMqsRH66hboXXh15oECWgrIC0lpITkjLWON5YoLf phttjuydlRamjhNUA6V1yFwrJc5SZl+dmm6ZLLpHVutjtxBZH3n7EIplAdAhnB4DfyT/ eUGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532tTh6Nw62q3Gr13x6wMRSGEkxoExMHcbOflYMmYN2cQ2OJfVPY t/TDdM628Lv8LhD9w75xQt9NN/ers35VgocB4yc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxeXHq7WCQffiztsCQkPJt/QqfhfpCjb2UchRVqI5Xsdj16htWfa52l7XiUphOo/SQ0Genjzbzgi7Im6U9vej4= X-Received: by 2002:a02:230d:: with SMTP id u13mr6390769jau.53.1618616201748; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 16:36:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 16:36:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dan Harkins Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bba4e505c01f73d1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 23:36:49 -0000 --000000000000bba4e505c01f73d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 4:27 PM Dan Harkins wrote: > > As a mental exercise, s/New York Times/Fox News/g and try it again. > See how that works? If some self-selected group of homogeneous thinkers > don't agree.... > The general idea to focus on is that the comments are anonymous. They could be mostly from the same person, for instance. thanks, Rob --000000000000bba4e505c01f73d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=C2=A0=C2=A0 As a mental exercise, s/New York Times/Fox News/g and try it a= gain.
See how that works? If some self-selected group of homogeneous thinkers
don't agree....

The general idea to= focus on is that the comments are anonymous. They could be mostly from the= same person, for instance.

thanks,
Rob<= /div>

--000000000000bba4e505c01f73d1-- From nobody Fri Apr 16 18:01:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6B03A0922 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 18:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=WgC3sy+W; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=pH0KP/N4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lxWVMZwKHvST for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 18:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91BA93A091F for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 18:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10785 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2021 01:01:01 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=2a1d.607a334d.k2104; bh=yjuhDy+UBRAn6O0E9tt8q2nsLeVGy33TBAlIaH8BN+s=; b=WgC3sy+WM9lJgezeghzoLsyVKSUEngr+s1HI2ckx7dcYdxEa0R46W28b6Mg/UK67HScluNC1QpsSetXJS2UaI29zGTRDUssSprAuMMMPgvqA+UCQHQrJRPT7ZXBlAMY0nhNeHM2JsqumwnMWYVBSKcAo85vewXCVaFmWOkGig9KUaBGMnPXHkCk9O5Ow1L2fuJl8ePqjg5/y8xi60VuXJp4fzsSo6XwaItPkae+QDPuiL0MzEF0nd5pFK/l81lsM8YAt10JimYh+e46oQ4fBwsdYZcvz1fSMYqkt0+3utYccFQaD/lHa1edHaAHe+kIZd9dKJgDU35a+4OKH2sYzLg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=2a1d.607a334d.k2104; bh=yjuhDy+UBRAn6O0E9tt8q2nsLeVGy33TBAlIaH8BN+s=; b=pH0KP/N49g6iM47OyWcDGCj4RuRCQEFl6KFxWLtLBjkySAEJoKGwQ8ocJ3fff2Hwl1+vAm0rH7CVXfqYi/siPICLzKqG67lbDeERDy6a1QG+8DLtMyIO/uFwss/ykUXl0qpzxohTK7+swriSwvlXyM7nHKc5HkS4879oer9eSzcWUh7s4xsiauYk6la2LAWsm83PN+idzCB9Rh7GXWpH20g5p9RAXeOrtuqQNWbk+ZHagat9VzOrP6ac0gN8rwokxYNi55nPVnqAGM4laR7bh4B4a+CpoMswjFxnRPiFzpmZ7/R+8jWxY5j1+E6qq7y4iQ0ofJe05ABkD/HrF7qOOw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 17 Apr 2021 01:01:01 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id CC8E1737DA60; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 21:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: 16 Apr 2021 21:00:59 -0400 Message-Id: <20210417010100.CC8E1737DA60@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: sayrer@gmail.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] all those people who commented on the NYT story X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 01:01:09 -0000 It appears that Rob Sayre said: >The general idea to focus on is that the comments are anonymous. They could >be mostly from the same person, for instance. FWIW, NY Times comments are only semi-anonymous. You have tp create an account with a working e-mail address. I recognize some of the frequent commenters from pther places I've met them. They're manually moderated to keep out the spam. This doesn't mean they're representative of any group other than people who like to comment on newspaper stories, but they are not just a bunch of trollbots. I think, though, that the IETF should make up its own mind about what it wants to do. R's, John From nobody Mon Apr 19 10:13:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5113A3B42 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 10:13:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_GOV_DKIM_AU=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ncsc.gov.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sbPeXpaRTfRH for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 10:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-CWL-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr110128.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.11.128]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86F193A3B4F for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 10:13:32 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=HXqyTSTEW3N9d7gmkwLtrUMdQuRsN6x10vcraBIyIwrKcA2bOe6oCq+y4ADNLGTwrb2xUS2wI6JGST+mvDDw6ibZYNdPDY3dtWOrM4voN3IMc9r6m5wuveI1a1mUgy/uZWHsK06PCNUQSSWc/ORyT/d3VY7LQuC9sdT7SnX/W7gEEseI8eotwsptHAGGTgmLbY8lkVHQk3a+AU9KNoxgj35apKD1yfpYlcGm3O/OOIGVQjpp0yX8d708vpkzY9t0x+wRTdCzzNFqQLtMtMfHby3VedWf2r7d6GewOhy+12iJH+6NnGYnzQn9U2HTJYdjW+HTYs71OH6FvyU8v8PElg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=3YeCAflt3OGB/aH1g2ql+/iN3mekPLNu04ZzC4pMKpA=; b=IFwtUi4KYL2ZYkLoJLKEXfHOMg+28Psoquljx6XGh0vvbyorp5mIQ59pMU7jPLGnC81TgUuEQrbnYbaQFIlRldcfwHMc9hQW22ByPOow9+08Z9mK/pTAR16AEvF9XeXjCU4E0jS8Xwb6h/mmxaB/yTIV/LTZUoF4nEFE3iDe+iE3ficrc902jwzUkrByHKl576NofI8QRmvgeRiVuea8wtIgkAlsdmpZxEHoXef76Lmw5jSggpOfqAwwQoyVI8OXdWaRxGMBm20gs/mkhRE8WYwkvnOVut9hTrMvJykLL5uB8vyZm/b2DGhayZbXz/RFjAu4pRn7FAGWntfZHcx8YQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ncsc.gov.uk; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ncsc.gov.uk; dkim=pass header.d=ncsc.gov.uk; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ncsc.gov.uk; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=3YeCAflt3OGB/aH1g2ql+/iN3mekPLNu04ZzC4pMKpA=; b=j0arkcUBZ0CxFxiGz0eXBSi+MTpwoAFPGGE4ZHQquSQJAUeWerhpwE4bzSfhpyoYRWMR7WcKIV5wMhnD11JJ5Mg7eHrpoXTAGcppF0+fZg8b37rEg8Yflq/bjyVor1RGOiV6L1/uwVoe7KiIE/jqh6KIb+W2LH66aRhKU5CUWpQ/sqftY7S3pXEg0PCY2anApOjjMy8O/LoNxqtnPmT9I1u5vf48tVXJ0mQ9coA1BknCQO4rPToAbTDoXYKCOc51QNjLOK4MYS2T1zqVikNqoq2Qip7XIPYByNbqoFJpwK0bssk3DIScU48sDzkaPk5ANyV2CNVE9qmczyoOS84Dlw== Received: from LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:12c::10) by LO4P123MB4670.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:1cc::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4042.24; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 17:13:28 +0000 Received: from LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::d1dd:5a6f:a08e:6b23]) by LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::d1dd:5a6f:a08e:6b23%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4042.024; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 17:13:28 +0000 From: Kirsty P To: Dan Harkins CC: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Final public warning (Was: Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021) Thread-Index: AQHXNT9QgJUpzbLJgEiAH265aSMTyA== Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 17:13:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: lounge.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;lounge.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ncsc.gov.uk; x-originating-ip: [20.49.216.123] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0a638f07-41bd-4240-1afd-08d903567340 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO4P123MB4670: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(136003)(39850400004)(366004)(346002)(396003)(71200400001)(5660300002)(52536014)(316002)(186003)(38100700002)(9686003)(26005)(122000001)(19627405001)(15650500001)(83380400001)(33656002)(166002)(86362001)(66446008)(66556008)(66946007)(53546011)(4326008)(6916009)(55016002)(7696005)(64756008)(8676002)(6506007)(66476007)(2906002)(966005)(8936002)(76116006)(478600001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?iso-8859-1?Q?zvbc2sNhbAwE9qUPMPL6IFFjXStlde/buIOS/vVb0Rsx/wGYyoPvslb+r1?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Wp93pDnog4W460yFAzLfcVwpmUlTN7JfKvNchAM7jGlmkGS6Fc/iWZwsBw?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?HnA27Wehaej/CLtu8SgBJBcIBxMde1drf6YetWaoXynVMvGrxmqMd1xRe4?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?hoYTgUQb1UOoNe3cy3GLUEH9EnyEepsi36g3a2bM5YDeiOpmYxkrmfkXPC?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?cAY6EdK0hV0+t3/xZCu7P0HIS0y5okCiYcl60C8rRkyxJiFrkWlYqgrhlf?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?xx3xHFAlfwKX0cTzw4AEnl4qNi3thhsVNPvvgsIygrldb1yeobnJTtBsYV?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?4fGpPhvvqELudx/QYi+FyQU7Tpu9NPOuRrhKA5fPlnCxuj5tkeUvRmij5Z?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?jCYb0Gv9Fdclqg2ncXqlw6m6xDYbuHpMPjz6ITmeFsEe4Sigmj3pV6Pp5B?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?5f0VaWW7+ZVUoiO4ZgzKRXYLu1kN5Jw2o1mxEDJQZqOhZNzs8z2USz8+qG?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?uNcdo8KmS5oCYqyAfXWGx86yuVPpgmhuPNtGexi1PgdgUMaMwGuw13Mtlb?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?elschCcT9eF7BVL40/SDKh5yrWSyROPP/4Frqv9Ewi7bfXv7sLCNuwxl3I?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OsVjplAnOwLghvjsVP9Cr59hPEJKhkAoEdABYTqDNdN/wMYyu3s70QKU/p?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?za0/gWorvHWAgmeJ64Nsh8GI9de+fOidizyGX6wGQx5VcSyfo8ZCq/luji?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?fi1qCYJNzIlLUv0hdsWLECsci8VfiReZdB1wC1ZQP0VZjoZq3/Kkuc0qDi?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ug+DBzl5plu5s/bH0ZERpXs8NOPZMYHcJ9gB0eMvdWtSprAki34P+ncRdr?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?aT35rEt4deiOddVDGNArmSHGzxrgap+bwr2noL0LzQKbgZxFJzhOti4HEh?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?QuaVCEW0yDkHepbt74fyoWm9LhEQrteSFy4x1vt1EKuA8PktyHQh9oFrAX?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?mxVIrfnXv1DaWuP77i1xKXVRCv+8UWV2+Cut2T67dyUoADo8uc4QroZM+k?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Q9gmYr4YPsUIHj0x6AZvzvExqLMzh3xGoT9dr+2OVaWScGXMzggqdcq3sG?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?FaCFa+xJZSP0C3Vmn1ihgOSuJ5tkUUqTPY2d8ZX6NKV5GTam4CnXVZ5MW0?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?DGYEuNBPNBg4hyWz3Yr9i6lQSXdBTwOLF4Egl9wiLQpSVtGF3SNjkkE1Ss?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?E/6sChf/7nM2B8aXRJrnNaDobwnaauZoyPvO4r7DwgCX8dOMyBJi7gsblp?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?dNTsIHBNuOPizNLK/kPwOdAoVTN/0+drvBIQyv6dLSk/qlFL3ySR9zJCJI?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?bX4WOltnSx?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_LO2P123MB35998692C0C1962C09E780A7D7499LO2P123MB3599GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ncsc.gov.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0a638f07-41bd-4240-1afd-08d903567340 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Apr 2021 17:13:28.4580 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 14aa5744-ece1-474e-a2d7-34f46dda64a1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dTcgb0/bJgayTh4mjMiYdqI+SO9V/aygjPJ9k4s7EdpZ0oria/HYB87Q3e7IhcKta9rNHyrwi2uVhde+0RbHTg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO4P123MB4670 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 17:13:38 -0000 --_000_LO2P123MB35998692C0C1962C09E780A7D7499LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote: >On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >> >> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference >> it is now (as suggested in other drafts). > To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a > draft to cancel the IETF list. Dan, That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly. While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning (RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public warning on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last October[1][2], w= e are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be tolerated and your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens again. Kirsty and Pete [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUM= Gn94SQ [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3Dt= E0gfOs This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 --_000_LO2P123MB35998692C0C1962C09E780A7D7499LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrot= e:

>On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
>>
>> To me, it shows that the IETF lis= t should not be given the deference
>> it is now (as suggested in other = drafts).

>   To me it shows that you'r= e probably not the right person to write a
> draft to cancel the IETF list.=


Dan,&= nbsp;

That = comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant
on the list. You've been warne= d about this sort of message repeatedly.

While the chairs are under no = obligation to give you a public warning
(RFC 3934 only says "the = WG chair should send at least one public
warning on the WG mailing list= "), given the events of last October[1][2], we
are inclined to give you this = one final public warning: Such
chara= cterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be
tolerated and your posting pri= vileges will be suspended if it happens
again.

Kirsty and Pete

[1]&n= bsp;https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUM= Gn94SQ
[2]&n= bsp;https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3Dt= E0gfOs





This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 --_000_LO2P123MB35998692C0C1962C09E780A7D7499LO2P123MB3599GBRP_-- From nobody Mon Apr 19 13:17:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DAF3A4251 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:17:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-DYioFC4QEv for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91A6D3A4250 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QRT0DE2BV1GQN@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 15:17:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QRT0099YUZXMX@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:16:46 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:17:39 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: Kirsty P Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UWrFuDJLT3T5qYJ6TEQcIg)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210414] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 20:17:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_UWrFuDJLT3T5qYJ6TEQcIg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT   You know what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some vague legalesey footer.   You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone (what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA request! Is that a joke?   Dan. On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirsty P wrote: > On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote: > > >On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > >> > >> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference > >> it is now (as suggested in other drafts). > > >  To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a > > draft to cancel the IETF list. > > > Dan, > > That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant > on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly. > > While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning > (RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public > warning on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last > October[1][2], we > are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such > characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be > tolerated and your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens > again. > > Kirsty and Pete > > [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUMGn94SQ > [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3DtE0gfOs > > > > > > This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 > (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer > any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown > Copyright © > -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_UWrFuDJLT3T5qYJ6TEQcIg) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
  You know what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some
vague legalesey footer.

  You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone
(what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA request! Is
that a joke?

  Dan.

On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirsty P wrote:
On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote:

>On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
>>
>> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference
>> it is now (as suggested in other drafts).

>   To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a
> draft to cancel the IETF list.


Dan, 

That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant
on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly.

While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning
(RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public
warning on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last October[1][2], we
are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such
characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be
tolerated and your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens
again.

Kirsty and Pete

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUMGn94SQ
[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3DtE0gfOs





This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright © 

-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_UWrFuDJLT3T5qYJ6TEQcIg)-- From nobody Tue Apr 20 03:00:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EDB3A1B2C for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 03:00:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=EbWHgmBN; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=LxP5pYCs Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U_BdzW_vAHM2 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 03:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F9FD3A1B20 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 03:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28325C0167; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:00:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:cc:subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=2NUt E+khcvYV6YpA6UNA6oqPDDdAoEjpIzjcF+eKCzA=; b=EbWHgmBNf3jDzetYn0iZ 49o5ehUH4mOjdMLePAvSC9gkun47vBwtF/RUvlNj9S+wEW/ie+LoczT+lNBXUa03 GhYbpvBTt91TvSPT4KF4zoF8At1Vx+Mp1WSj7VwQK/R+aBPK+McGUqr5tHJLtn3r U+hfa0SbTilDPZG6oYVxR4JTDH3qExr+Sakqa+6HDpKeKlJxxxDGmJy/xs2epjF2 arAViG5a7u1BvXUEnyQ9fmTh0Nc3LgMPS3bqO0Pnwd/1X+JZuxARJLNb8TvUxs7O 2L63VnH9QTzmTOPOUwY8ORFr8uM/DTJ8SXy8+5wwvU7CrL+nEdD/uZbq9DFq+uLp 8Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=2NUtE+ khcvYV6YpA6UNA6oqPDDdAoEjpIzjcF+eKCzA=; b=LxP5pYCsvqOFxqgjB+2l+g qcFYjUvQnpsJwLE074asfRLK+1raTlHj1OBrxXqFM5Rl5lv5va8ETxDi6YSHQiRd xlocvxvZq5udbc3UddKw2MMte/BdO+ziWaF3UPEfCWfbgHftNspXKf6tadX4/AG2 YiTxTJkus5Yso4V4Zax9tNuu9LmaoJ26v0QlycYUgQynVAZZKQLSJd4DCsOMHXlo mxriUgiDV2p0kthn9P7KsN6LVUHKVwJEH5CjeVdGfwfPgzjPUWGJCe5wFxxwbf8K 3gDjp4m6ePAACgl2mB/cCh+S2Ir9VnPZ6gH8YhPHXvsj1NfDjkSlqqImmdTI/MdQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddtiedgvdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtreerreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhho nhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhgsehfrghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffdvkeefgeelieeutedttdffheevvefffeekuddvtddt keeigfejuddvhfdvudelnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegsrhhonhhgsehfrghsthhm rghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id EDAE6260005F; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:00:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-403-gbc3c488b23-fm-20210419.005-gbc3c488b Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <54b8da6b-a6a6-4785-89f1-3050d9eff438@dogfood.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:00:12 +1000 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: "Dan Harkins" , "Kirsty P" Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=3f610c0f53424c13a20be2eeb2b05abe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] =?utf-8?q?Final_public_warning_=28Was=3A_Messages_?= =?utf-8?q?from_the_gendispatch_list_for_the_week_ending_Sun_Apr_11_06=3A0?= =?utf-8?q?0=3A06_2021=29?= X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:00:50 -0000 --3f610c0f53424c13a20be2eeb2b05abe Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Damn it Dan, being a jerk doesn't help your cause any or make it easier = to support any good points you make. This email was straight up jerk. She works at an organisation which enforces such crap on all outbound em= ail. Boo hoo, sucks to be her - but that's what pays the bills and ther= e are other things about working there which are less awful, I'm sure. You're pounding on the table. Please desist for the sake of everyone el= se in this conversation. It makes it look like the facts and the law ar= en't on your side. Regards, Bron. On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 06:17, Dan Harkins wrote: >=20 > You know what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some > vague legalesey footer.=20 >=20 > You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone > (what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA request! Is > that a joke? >=20 > Dan. >=20 > On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirsty P wrote: >>=20 >> On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote:=20 >>=20 >> >On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >> >> >> >> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deferen= ce >> >> it is now (as suggested in other drafts). >>=20 >> > To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write= a >> > draft to cancel the IETF list. >>=20 >>=20 >> Dan,=20 >>=20 >> That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant >> on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly= . >>=20 >> While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning= >> (RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public >> warning on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last October[1]= [2], we >> are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such >> characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not = be >> tolerated and your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens= >> again. >>=20 >> Kirsty and Pete >>=20 >> [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9j= L2blUMGn94SQ >> [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0= h-b3DtE0gfOs >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 = (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer a= ny FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Cop= yright =C2=A9=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --3f610c0f53424c13a20be2eeb2b05abe Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Damn it Dan, being = a jerk doesn't help your cause any or make it easier to support any good= points you make.

<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">This email was straight up jerk.

She works at an organisation which enforces such crap on all ou= tbound email.  Boo hoo, sucks to be her - but that's what pays the = bills and there are other things about working there which are less awfu= l, I'm sure.

You're pounding on the table.  Please d= esist for the sake of everyone else in this conversation.  It makes= it look like the facts and the law aren't on your side.

= Regards,

Bron.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 06:17, Dan Harkins wrote:=

=
  You kn= ow what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some
vague legalesey footer.

  = You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone
(what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA= request! Is
that a joke?

  Dan.

On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirst= y P wrote:

On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote:
<= span style=3D"">

>On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
&= gt;>
>> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference
>> it is now (as suggested in other drafts).<= br>

>   To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a
> draft to cancel the IETF list.


Dan,&nb= sp;

That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant
on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly.

While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning
(RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public
warning= on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last October[1][2], we
are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such
characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be
tolerated a= nd your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens<= /span>
ag= ain.

Kirsty and Pete

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2y= W8ltVLD9jL2blUMGn94SQ
[2] http= s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3DtE0gfO= s





This information= is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.g= ov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =C2=A9 


--=20
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
-- 
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org

--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com


<= /html> --3f610c0f53424c13a20be2eeb2b05abe-- From nobody Wed Apr 21 21:13:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE2B3A08EA for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:13:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9J-3QpwQ1y_j for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4F3D3A095E for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QRY0KC8J6DFOY@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:12:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QRY00GEY6BKFP@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:11:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:12:50 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <54b8da6b-a6a6-4785-89f1-3050d9eff438@dogfood.fastmail.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <966a3b8b-9733-f518-f345-fa05431172af@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_bwx5IPg9OWIgaYgsdyTb/g)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> <54b8da6b-a6a6-4785-89f1-3050d9eff438@dogfood.fastmail.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210420] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 04:13:09 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_bwx5IPg9OWIgaYgsdyTb/g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT   Hi Bron, On 4/20/21 3:00 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > Damn it Dan, being a jerk doesn't help your cause any or make it > easier to support any good points you make. > > This email was straight up jerk.   Yes, you're right. It was jerk. I can, and should, do better. > She works at an organisation which enforces such crap on all outbound > email.  Boo hoo, sucks to be her - but that's what pays the bills and > there are other things about working there which are less awful, I'm sure.   Well, there are plenty of free email accounts to use. No requirement to succumb to the whims of someone in legal. > You're pounding on the table. Please desist for the sake of everyone > else in this conversation.  It makes it look like the facts and the > law aren't on your side.   Point very well taken. I do think facts are on my side and I do think I have been obscuring that with my, as you put it, straight up jerk email.   Facts are:     - There was nothing in my email that "characterized another participant        on the list". I did not make reference to anyone's distinctive features        which is what "characterize" means. I said someone is probably not the        right person to write a draft and Kirsty snipped the reasoning. Yes, I        probably could've said that with more tact but snipping an email to        make it look worse in order to justify a public notice is...well, not really        right.     - Kirsty makes it look like there were two issues in the past but they're        both references to the same post of mine that resulted in an        admonishment by Pete and Francesca.     - And as I said to Pete and Francesca in a zoom call at the time, I did        nothing wrong. They were criticizing me for doing things others did        that got no public notice. It was/is viewpoint discrimination and that's        not right. Pete, at the time excused his viewpoint discrimination because        he said I was trolling. His reasoning for that? I had to be, because I was        being given a public notice, he just asserted it must be true because it        justified his behavor. It was the most circular of reasoning. These are not legitimate reasons to remove my posting privileges.   Dan. > Regards, > > Bron. > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 06:17, Dan Harkins wrote: >> >>   You know what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some >> vague legalesey footer. >> >>   You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone >> (what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA request! Is >> that a joke? >> >>   Dan. >> >> On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirsty P wrote: >>> >>> On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> >>> >On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >>> >> >>> >> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference >>> >> it is now (as suggested in other drafts). >>> >>> >   To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a >>> > draft to cancel the IETF list. >>> >>> >>> Dan, >>> >>> That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant >>> on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly. >>> >>> While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning >>> (RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public >>> warning on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last >>> October[1][2], we >>> are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such >>> characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be >>> tolerated and your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens >>> again. >>> >>> Kirsty and Pete >>> >>> [1] >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUMGn94SQ >>> >>> [2] >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3DtE0gfOs >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 >>> (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. >>> Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk >>> . All material is UK Crown Copyright © >>> >> >> -- >> "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to >> escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> >> > > -- >   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd >   brong@fastmailteam.com > > > -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_bwx5IPg9OWIgaYgsdyTb/g) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
  Hi Bron,

On 4/20/21 3:00 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote:
Damn it Dan, being a jerk doesn't help your cause any or make it easier to support any good points you make.

This email was straight up jerk.

  Yes, you're right. It was jerk. I can, and should, do better.

She works at an organisation which enforces such crap on all outbound email.  Boo hoo, sucks to be her - but that's what pays the bills and there are other things about working there which are less awful, I'm sure.

  Well, there are plenty of free email accounts to use. No requirement
to succumb to the whims of someone in legal.

You're pounding on the table.  Please desist for the sake of everyone else in this conversation.  It makes it look like the facts and the law aren't on your side.

  Point very well taken. I do think facts are on my side and I do think I have
been obscuring that with my, as you put it, straight up jerk email.

  Facts are:
    - There was nothing in my email that "characterized another participant
       on the list". I did not make reference to anyone's distinctive features
       which is what "characterize" means. I said someone is probably not the
       right person to write a draft and Kirsty snipped the reasoning. Yes, I
       probably could've said that with more tact but snipping an email to
       make it look worse in order to justify a public notice is...well, not really
       right.
    - Kirsty makes it look like there were two issues in the past but they're
       both references to the same post of mine that resulted in an
       admonishment by Pete and Francesca.
    - And as I said to Pete and Francesca in a zoom call at the time, I did
       nothing wrong. They were criticizing me for doing things others did
       that got no public notice. It was/is viewpoint discrimination and that's
       not right. Pete, at the time excused his viewpoint discrimination because
       he said I was trolling. His reasoning for that? I had to be, because I was
       being given a public notice, he just asserted it must be true because it
       justified his behavor. It was the most circular of reasoning.

These are not legitimate reasons to remove my posting privileges.

  Dan.

Regards,

Bron.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 06:17, Dan Harkins wrote:

  You know what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some
vague legalesey footer.

  You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone
(what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA request! Is
that a joke?

  Dan.

On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirsty P wrote:

On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote:

>On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
>>
>> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference
>> it is now (as suggested in other drafts).

>   To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a
> draft to cancel the IETF list.


Dan, 

That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant
on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly.

While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning
(RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public
warning on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last October[1][2], we
are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such
characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be
tolerated and your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens
again.

Kirsty and Pete

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUMGn94SQ
[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3DtE0gfOs





This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright © 


-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
-- 
Gendispatch mailing list


--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com




-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_bwx5IPg9OWIgaYgsdyTb/g)-- From nobody Fri Apr 23 02:26:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419F13A1374 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:26:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_GOV_DKIM_AU=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ncsc.gov.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2yE6Pu2-MRjc for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-CWL-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr110122.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.11.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 404FB3A1370 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:26:36 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Kz2O8Hr/0qO5qQHxzlToy0FtLGB8gATzi2NL9MAKSFXiV4vZwolaqRLzq8qwV4i5fyiTKj6n6Qf7hcqao/KlSxmmVK73lStUAeoyQIWRV+TWkgulYe3MUbWXpsQ6HRLWVKq3O0rsFmXaAHSaql84PXDKrr9pTMnoDcKYqPgKvd+s1SSOrs5MR714BBS5Kuvl84M0qjniKjARXBV6wocYzR3a6RSSisSQ+t6RN5a/hMduDh4znSGIqrzRMLAsTrD27c4NCnJMe1Os1oEaaGfgx4FnzocHqamkXz9UlOhEAE41oSFRjQcrlsIy4otjs3R6RnD0WOy0Yk6xvivF1PVllg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=L0IaQ0gvPsOzKDPnqxxae5T6G+TbfuTDWVaaUl6dT7M=; b=mcOqjk1A3+rEXHsjoUqSO+/bs5w9P5jIDP3G0h8sBAlWRWcgndkEmNmUVtkiPc7+MFv+vnQ9DFVQ1NmMoCnEW9hIO7lWQoZ7YIoXDtajREKYaLbM5QsCpIDwP+r4mdjpBMyiV+748loBcIMEoJ69eR9/cR8ZdbbroN4O1X6X5ZLjzHWUtqVGsE5FGPJOKsV1tVa2r0Rm0snX7tXNyfx0NikG+Qcr4yDb9Ub3hxMiyoqYlAEpdvCjhIKx0gwHAyhQMH6gMadts5geaUoD8Gv7BtbChmiuByV+f7VN/osZ+03JPiYKFzv0M1e6sHj4K2Pokil0MG8Ts6henol+qGjZyw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ncsc.gov.uk; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ncsc.gov.uk; dkim=pass header.d=ncsc.gov.uk; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ncsc.gov.uk; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=L0IaQ0gvPsOzKDPnqxxae5T6G+TbfuTDWVaaUl6dT7M=; b=YCIe88ULembuI1oYbx1dpOAZv/ed0ah9Y3jb49+dUsDohETX9jSp0sGAXOcMoJKCioHdKRglJ+q6J7dXd9AUl0upr8VqYB80LecDt6a6pXWhU/cHuYpbTBqMJ/EKXA8uvfTKxRZ5ZqpZk3isokR6X3RMGAioQCPRW+JJwvJwknlXyKiOTID4MN3Cvw4nAW9nw4vHBYAXruXM+deykCasjZZeYDbA4GeTx5wi3HjwBA3sJNEuMrf1VlYwQVZ5YAc/g4h5Yj63+xy929BC5+XAHMyiFavM1SNOaWRnR83JNeljKNlslWYvwUT0gKLn3I5kWhOuakXeKXEL8cnuxB6iBA== Received: from LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:12c::10) by LO2P123MB3869.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:146::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4042.24; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:26:33 +0000 Received: from LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::d1dd:5a6f:a08e:6b23]) by LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::d1dd:5a6f:a08e:6b23%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4042.025; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:26:33 +0000 From: Kirsty P To: Dan Harkins , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021) Thread-Index: AQHXNT9QgJUpzbLJgEiAH265aSMTyKq8R5iAgADl0QCAAsOcAIAB6WIf Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:26:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> <54b8da6b-a6a6-4785-89f1-3050d9eff438@dogfood.fastmail.com>, <966a3b8b-9733-f518-f345-fa05431172af@lounge.org> In-Reply-To: <966a3b8b-9733-f518-f345-fa05431172af@lounge.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: lounge.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;lounge.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ncsc.gov.uk; x-originating-ip: [20.49.216.123] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e0b484f6-f938-40dd-1588-08d90639e2d8 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P123MB3869: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:747; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(346002)(39850400004)(366004)(376002)(136003)(53546011)(122000001)(19627405001)(966005)(478600001)(186003)(8676002)(66946007)(66446008)(316002)(166002)(7696005)(52536014)(5660300002)(66476007)(71200400001)(64756008)(66556008)(76116006)(83380400001)(8936002)(55016002)(26005)(2906002)(38100700002)(110136005)(9686003)(33656002)(15650500001)(6506007)(86362001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?iso-8859-1?Q?NL31DEKQl+xf+/lphHNc+5ORi+rd9IPbMl5T2AJjPIJbIet46181kkEaDd?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?8EKOyvXfaLR0y14UE1R/QUO4K7lRtK1LTCZ/VtDHeCjG9eOBdS8UHqJdOn?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?YKYyakBJduyOTmDfWQRsUOLZN9rKiwPQqD9/ja9yibYBRhkFynxH6CkCiq?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?6uU/Fykf3FAyVaHWDKrgFYMkt2Zf2bt6hL0rJTVcdZyoUDuQ92vUwebo82?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Q2BQTJi6wJYLwSkR7I7Fa0NEcjtQI2BspxgagHZLFrGtUsFtKZzkN0W8mi?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?qPSmZ1vyniI5/cyry2kRvbM6pXB29h05J6qtN6GmZEaL3mlDUu7VB+r1+f?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?LrtCnYpLs5Lp+WTsyts5ARjfU5twAQDv6wz9KW4Q+xW/g9xmJnKCwVLpXD?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Y27uVSfPT9bJL/asJNMQdq6y3o9MIL9yqlDYIn/t5WMvBwBOzfbKqBIGj8?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?jYn84dFnQIXf+rUw4644WBUqigKoTd5aMvkqM7OnWsMX/ZFVR8GWNVOLhn?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Qb9TRe8lPBPlR6UN6/DuRFpiQsrtpXR2i0FyjEcvoECBXeigiIKXSBBOVK?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?2at+8FLqqzp/wMJCZAWTob6c+6qTr7dkp6Bv0zsrYQ6OmgD132CkZ+Z1jK?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?bpoKuCRyggmO23I83mtgySySXpnV7bF+w4G5r1E8deGU9AlkH6NfpbTD22?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?m74nT5n+igySggak04KZjljOWjFk6Ej7J0MyFYuh/xnucZAvEgT5+Apeq7?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Am+veE+isrlu58oS4VB6c3cIIO0r+rH3Kk1AC2VbSzi9pXziK7hPrvE39O?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?45GuEHsNApNeUa7JZNIPMidA5mQ9GG71EkK7ImNvErA5HPu1rhuUW2SgEv?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?3eYvwK/mmPSL0KjFT3n8RiP5+dqpZx0ga3OskO3dXVPHvyDxUrq5DINJ8F?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?9W/z9o0Bu4zrr3Ul7Nj5eycmQ96FVtLZQ0dVyXML5aB3B8ZFH6JMmsv/pe?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ts02vV4O/pWiytleL3PvFANJ+ClRxot6E9xdLUjOtOBy1HgxK1R6r6ti48?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?k95ioteXcQnDX2IgFsg6fZAwx4++yZTg5HXg9diKOXJ4Q8yGj38xwAAEp1?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?CxT4EgwWbZQ8NGcV6OooAIQKWvGqTofy/YprK803C7POhTJDb4n1jd1+Yw?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?G+P5FzUX3jo7ZVzg7MzEuL9JICCSkpoIRkg1WmggkmBqjlBJ2NwsYzkQcx?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?4m6NYOvhECclmhQbCGnvgOTsEGcgceV/GPPZdANmplVx9s30WGw+cPYeYr?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?8ZfUwy5ABdX4xNhKxF2Xrvd27vSfpmJ0v8/i8CQnAY/WvNIIbcCNfyuSlX?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?7hpBTstTSp?= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_LO2P123MB35993CE40CD0A089998F89B7D7459LO2P123MB3599GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ncsc.gov.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P123MB3599.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e0b484f6-f938-40dd-1588-08d90639e2d8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Apr 2021 09:26:33.7982 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 14aa5744-ece1-474e-a2d7-34f46dda64a1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: VvF67GOm2u75RLZvyJs6lBJkzS/9lqzjNPyQQ6FzWS/1XTcVnZUm3nrQ7axbjXMPxtkGY6OEsk6tIH0K/3M6VA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P123MB3869 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:26:42 -0000 --_000_LO2P123MB35993CE40CD0A089998F89B7D7459LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dan, The previous warning was jointly written by Kirsty and Pete as co-chairs, a= s is this email. What is most important here is that we're trying to maintain productive, no= n-aggressive and on-topic discussion on the list and however that is achiev= ed, it works for us. For example, continuing a discussion about Kirsty's auto-appended disclaime= r (instead of dropping it) is continuing off-topic discussion that isn't he= lpful to the list. So we'd encourage you not to focus intensely on the definitions of words (b= y characteri[sz]ing, we mean "depicting (often in a negative light)") but t= ry to understand the bigger picture that is being conveyed which is: we'd l= ike to you participate, to discuss ideas and messages, without attacking pe= ople - however, the way you sometimes participate disengages others unfairl= y, so it needs to shift or we'll inevitably have to postpone your privilege= s and we'll lose your insights on the topic being discussed. Which is not a= great outcome for anyone. To be clear, you would need to commit another infraction before your postin= g privileges would be suspended for 30 days, as detailed in RFC3934 [1]. However, like all other WG chair decisions, any suspension of posting privi= leges is subject to appeal, as described in RFC 2026 [2]. You are most welc= ome to invoke that procedure should you wish to, if we get to that point (l= et's hope we don't). Kirsty and Pete ________________________________ From: Gendispatch on behalf of Dan Harkins <= dharkins@lounge.org> Sent: 22 April 2021 05:12 To: gendispatch@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from the gen= dispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021) Hi Bron, On 4/20/21 3:00 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote: Damn it Dan, being a jerk doesn't help your cause any or make it easier to = support any good points you make. This email was straight up jerk. Yes, you're right. It was jerk. I can, and should, do better. She works at an organisation which enforces such crap on all outbound email= . Boo hoo, sucks to be her - but that's what pays the bills and there are = other things about working there which are less awful, I'm sure. Well, there are plenty of free email accounts to use. No requirement to succumb to the whims of someone in legal. You're pounding on the table. Please desist for the sake of everyone else = in this conversation. It makes it look like the facts and the law aren't o= n your side. Point very well taken. I do think facts are on my side and I do think I h= ave been obscuring that with my, as you put it, straight up jerk email. Facts are: - There was nothing in my email that "characterized another participant on the list". I did not make reference to anyone's distinctive featu= res which is what "characterize" means. I said someone is probably not t= he right person to write a draft and Kirsty snipped the reasoning. Yes,= I probably could've said that with more tact but snipping an email to make it look worse in order to justify a public notice is...well, no= t really right. - Kirsty makes it look like there were two issues in the past but they'= re both references to the same post of mine that resulted in an admonishment by Pete and Francesca. - And as I said to Pete and Francesca in a zoom call at the time, I did nothing wrong. They were criticizing me for doing things others did that got no public notice. It was/is viewpoint discrimination and th= at's not right. Pete, at the time excused his viewpoint discrimination be= cause he said I was trolling. His reasoning for that? I had to be, because= I was being given a public notice, he just asserted it must be true becaus= e it justified his behavor. It was the most circular of reasoning. These are not legitimate reasons to remove my posting privileges. Dan. Regards, Bron. On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 06:17, Dan Harkins wrote: You know what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some vague legalesey footer. You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone (what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA request! Is that a joke? Dan. On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirsty P wrote: On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote: >On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >> >> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference >> it is now (as suggested in other drafts). > To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a > draft to cancel the IETF list. Dan, That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly. While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning (RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public warning on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last October[1][2], w= e are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be tolerated and your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens again. Kirsty and Pete [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUM= Gn94SQ [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3Dt= E0gfOs This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All mate= rial is UK Crown Copyright =A9 -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius -- Gendispatch mailing list Gendispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --_000_LO2P123MB35993CE40CD0A089998F89B7D7459LO2P123MB3599GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi= Dan,

The previous warning was jointly = written by Kirsty and Pete as co-chairs, as is this email.

What is most important here is th= at we're trying to maintain productive, non-aggressive and on-topic discuss= ion on the list and however that is achieved, it works for us.

For example, = ;c<= span style=3D"margin:0px;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Segoe UI", &= quot;Helvetica Neue", sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont">ontinuing a discussion about Kirsty's auto-appended disclaimer (instead of dropping = it) is continuing off-topic discussion that isn't helpful to the list.


So we'd encourage= you not to focus intensely on the definitions of words (by characteri[sz]i= ng, we mean "depicting (often in a negative light)") but try to understand the bigger picture tha= t is being conveyed which is: we'd like to you participate, to discuss ideas and messages, without attacking = people - however, the way you sometimes participate disengages others unfai= rly, so it needs to shift or we'll inevitably have to postpone your privile= ges and we'll lose your insights on the topic being discussed. Which is not a great outcome for anyone.


To be clear, you = would need to commit another infraction before your posting privileges woul= d be suspended for 30 days, as detailed in RFC3934 [1].


However, like all= other WG chair decisions, any suspension of posting privileges is subject = to appeal, as described in RFC 2026 [2]. You are most welcome to invoke that procedure should you wish to, if we get to that poi= nt (let's hope we don't).


Kirsty and Pete



From: Gendispatch <gendi= spatch-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.or= g>
Sent: 22 April 2021 05:12
To: gendispatch@ietf.org <gendispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from = the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021)
 

  Hi Bron,

On 4/20/21 3:00 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote:
Damn it Dan, being a jerk doesn't help you= r cause any or make it easier to support any good points you make.

This email was straight up jerk.

  Yes, you're right. It was jerk. I can, and should, do better.

She works at an organisation which enforce= s such crap on all outbound email.  Boo hoo, sucks to be her - but tha= t's what pays the bills and there are other things about working there whic= h are less awful, I'm sure.

  Well, there are plenty of free email accounts to use. No requirement=
to succumb to the whims of someone in legal.

You're pounding on the table.  Please= desist for the sake of everyone else in this conversation.  It makes = it look like the facts and the law aren't on your side.

  Point very well taken. I do think facts are on my side and I do thin= k I have
been obscuring that with my, as you put it, straight up jerk email.

  Facts are:
    - There was nothing in my email that "characterized= another participant
       on the list". I did not make refe= rence to anyone's distinctive features
       which is what "characterize"= means. I said someone is probably not the
       right person to write a draft and Kirs= ty snipped the reasoning. Yes, I
       probably could've said that with more = tact but snipping an email to
       make it look worse in order to justify= a public notice is...well, not really
       right.
    - Kirsty makes it look like there were two issues in the= past but they're
       both references to the same post of mi= ne that resulted in an
       admonishment by Pete and Francesca.     - And as I said to Pete and Francesca in a zoom call at = the time, I did
       nothing wrong. They were criticizing m= e for doing things others did
       that got no public notice. It was/is v= iewpoint discrimination and that's
       not right. Pete, at the time excused h= is viewpoint discrimination because
       he said I was trolling. His reasoning = for that? I had to be, because I was
       being given a public notice, he just a= sserted it must be true because it
       justified his behavor. It was the most= circular of reasoning.

These are not legitimate reasons to remove my posting privileges.

  Dan.

Regards,

Bron.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 06:17, Dan Harkins wrote:

  You know= what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some
vague legalesey footer.

  You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone (what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA request! I= s
that a joke?

  Dan.

On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirsty P wrote:

On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote:

>O= n 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
>&= gt;
>&= gt; To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference
>&= gt; it is now (as suggested in other drafts).

>&= nbsp;  To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to wri= te a
> = draft to cancel the IETF list.


Dan, 

Tha= t comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant
on the list. You've been warned about this s= ort of message repeatedly.

While the chairs are under no obligation to = give you a public warning
(RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair shoul= d send at least one public
warning on the WG mailing list"), given= the events of last October[1][2], we
are inclined to give you this one final publ= ic warning: Such
cha= racterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be=
tolerated and your posting privileges will b= e suspended if it happens
again.

Kirsty and Pete

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUMGn9= 4SQ
[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3D= tE0gfOs





This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (= FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any F= OIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 


--=20
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
-- 
Gendispatch mailing list


--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com




--=20
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius=
--_000_LO2P123MB35993CE40CD0A089998F89B7D7459LO2P123MB3599GBRP_-- From nobody Fri Apr 23 07:43:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 985B73A0BAB; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:43:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RoeRxEa8_yzY; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F09B63A0888; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:111a:ae16:2b19:6db2] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:111a:ae16:2b19:6db2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B5834600342; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 17:43:16 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1619188996; bh=bem+mgKEXK7NXBa5XJXr66WA3iZr5tWjO3ol3DpyWbs=; h=Subject:From:Date:Cc:Reply-To:References:To; b=mMzGYkjCax8uzuwEfDku5Jal+jQFXTdwHaGM3VNqGOFxenzLFyJZS97E54gS2cOAS jKJIN4h8oxa54JvFpyR3g5PORobAYD0wUM4lceZpct1gV0kL7AJkThXctG7sztFOZo WIEu1KtD+94DDOIn59um+KazXBm5XRHGF8RgyZJM= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_63819CCE-7BBD-488A-94B8-E2CFD375DA9D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Lars Eggert Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 17:43:16 +0300 Cc: ietf@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org Reply-To: terminology@ietf.org Message-Id: <2563B42A-20A4-4A9F-B9CA-518A72A0A095@eggert.org> References: <161918836800.7390.6996403788262551415@ietfa.amsl.com> To: terminology@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-MailScanner-ID: B5834600342.A6265 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 14:43:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_63819CCE-7BBD-488A-94B8-E2CFD375DA9D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_06519235-E84B-4432-86BA-5FAA0FFFADAB" --Apple-Mail=_06519235-E84B-4432-86BA-5FAA0FFFADAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, the latest version of the charter for TERM just went out for IETF-wide = review. This is the second such review cycle, which I deemed necessary = due to the number of changes to the charter text the first review = resulted in. Please send constructive comments on the charter for the proposed WG to = terminology@ietf.org , or privately to the = IESG or even only to me as the responsible AD. To make sure that your feedback is taken into account on this latest = version of the charter text, I encourage you to send comments even if = you commented during the last IETF review cycle, or when the charter was = earlier discussed in GENDISPATCH. Thanks, Lars >=20 > A new IETF WG has been proposed in the General Area. The IESG has not = made > any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and = is > provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to = the > IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2021-05-03. >=20 > Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Current status: Proposed WG >=20 > Chairs: > TBD >=20 > Assigned Area Director: > Lars Eggert >=20 > General Area Directors: > Lars Eggert >=20 > Mailing list: > Address: terminology@ietf.org > To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology > Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/terminology/ >=20 > Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/term/ >=20 > Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-term/ >=20 > The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 is to produce high = quality, > relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, = use, and > manage the Internet. Contributions to the IETF, including = Internet-Drafts and > RFCs, are most understandable and effective when they use terminology = that is > clear, precise, and widely accessible to readers from varying = backgrounds and > cultures. This maximizes the benefits the IETF derives from its = central > principles, such as its open process and volunteer core. >=20 > In the years leading up to the chartering of this working group, there = has > been discussion in the IETF, in other standards organizations, and in = the > broader technology industry about the use of certain terms of art in > technical writing and whether those and other terms have an = exclusionary > effect. While opinions vary among IETF participants about this topic, = there > is widespread agreement that the IETF community would benefit from = advice > about using effective terminology that would improve clarity and > approachability. >=20 > The TERM working group is therefore chartered to produce an = Informational RFC > containing guidance to IETF participants on the use of effective = terminology > that also minimizes exclusionary effects. The RFC will express general > principles for assessing when language is effective. The principles = should be > derived considering input from a broad set of IETF participants. The = WG will > identify and recommend external, independently updated resources = containing > examples of potentially problematic terms and potential alternatives = to IETF > participants for their consideration, to align its efforts with = broader > activities by the technology industry. >=20 > The TERM working group is a focused group aiming to produce a single > deliverable. It is designed to complement other efforts at fostering > inclusivity in the IETF and will liaise with appropriate external = groups, > such as other SDOs or industry initiatives, to coordinate. >=20 > The output of this WG will provide guidance to IETF participants and = will not > restrict the type or content of contributions that can be made to the = IETF > standards process. The output of this WG may inform a potential future > activity by the RFC Editor to establish terminology guidance for the = overall > RFC series, but does not constrain any such future action. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > Jun 2021 - Adopt draft providing informational terminology = recommendations >=20 > Dec 2021 - Submit informational terminology recommendations to IESG --Apple-Mail=_06519235-E84B-4432-86BA-5FAA0FFFADAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi,

the = latest version of the charter for TERM just went out for IETF-wide = review. This is the second such review cycle, which I deemed necessary = due to the number of changes to the charter text the first review = resulted in.

Please send constructive comments on the charter for the = proposed WG to terminology@ietf.org, or privately to the IESG or even = only to me as the responsible AD.

To make sure that your feedback is = taken into account on this latest version of the charter text, I = encourage you to send comments even if you commented during the last = IETF review cycle, or when the charter was earlier discussed in = GENDISPATCH.

Thanks,
Lars


A new IETF WG has been proposed in the = General Area. The IESG has not made
any determination yet. = The following draft charter was submitted, and is
provided = for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the
IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2021-05-03.

Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term)
---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
Current status: Proposed WG

Chairs:
 TBD

Assigned Area Director:
 Lars Eggert = <lars@eggert.org>

General = Area Directors:
 Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>

Mailing list:
 Address: terminology@ietf.org
 To subscribe: = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology
 Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/terminology/

Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/term/

Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-term/

The mission of the IETF as specified in BCP 95 = is to produce high quality,
relevant technical documents = that influence the way people design, use, and
manage the = Internet. Contributions to the IETF, including Internet-Drafts and
RFCs, are most understandable and effective when they use = terminology that is
clear, precise, and widely accessible = to readers from varying backgrounds and
cultures. This = maximizes the benefits the IETF derives from its central
principles, such as its open process and volunteer core.

In the years leading up to the chartering of = this working group, there has
been discussion in the IETF, = in other standards organizations, and in the
broader = technology industry about the use of certain terms of art in
technical writing and whether those and other terms have an = exclusionary
effect. While opinions vary among IETF = participants about this topic, there
is widespread = agreement that the IETF community would benefit from advice
about using effective terminology that would improve clarity = and
approachability.

The TERM = working group is therefore chartered to produce an Informational RFC
containing guidance to IETF participants on the use of = effective terminology
that also minimizes exclusionary = effects. The RFC will express general
principles for = assessing when language is effective. The principles should be
derived considering input from a broad set of IETF = participants. The WG will
identify and recommend external, = independently updated resources containing
examples of = potentially problematic terms and potential alternatives to IETF
participants for their consideration, to align its efforts = with broader
activities by the technology industry.

The TERM working group is a focused group = aiming to produce a single
deliverable. It is designed to = complement other efforts at fostering
inclusivity in the = IETF and will liaise with appropriate external groups,
such = as other SDOs or industry initiatives, to coordinate.

The output of this WG will provide guidance to IETF = participants and will not
restrict the type or content of = contributions that can be made to the IETF
standards = process. The output of this WG may inform a potential future
activity by the RFC Editor to establish terminology guidance = for the overall
RFC series, but does not constrain any = such future action.

Milestones:

 Jun 2021 - Adopt draft providing = informational terminology recommendations

=  Dec 2021 - Submit informational terminology recommendations to = IESG

= --Apple-Mail=_06519235-E84B-4432-86BA-5FAA0FFFADAB-- --Apple-Mail=_63819CCE-7BBD-488A-94B8-E2CFD375DA9D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmCC3QQACgkQVLXDCb9w wVftlw/+LZ1527KtRegAqOnX6xs5UrcN6BgvgKlihA7OBcqLEVKxs7IHIaUye6KT o2OHIuY1VNCmZShRbrAXVv9OSpqkDCFBRs8w37ykxoKAfF3TKedcgP9A/fdXCgTR OOFrFoSucsWJb+b1Zd7n46y02zmqSMeTbwDRtisAkEU7zVR/MtthdBQsr1W3W7um 1U5+dbTm5JbpIyUkRf+DOqIKW8HSbMw7GhPVja0hZTOxv2iGVjNiNPwwDitLyiLo 5sGBiGRYjHRx1wuuzxjEiMq1nnIVoQikw6NlF0ToyYTTpz8HoMkr2tf9j09b/YVK OAEFQkd3EvFoEld5CiyDpzkjQ/19lPdTbWJXD0MWEEeTfEXLexBUuLsRQOLZiGNz JdOcRDKQ3LXgDUMoxuTcj9K6CurkXMYpTqAs9t0DV9ZBC2j9KAqiMj7kXCDEwBsH eTc6qwn9oEGaITuOqE7b07rIRxlVC+nQ1TjgHA/Y/hRBIJHkpSRbersyM5ehL+wy s1C/RItdQ5UteqSZTE5vaX8aU9e3/XU8QDgHkmM7pyUluueAbnKYIE9U4fidQARB fLI2MmBI882t2qaCIceHSkqw3CULKzDUUYN8PsoQouw4BsyHPo3p1nqDbTQ1tLzF +MRBglpL0tt1TCHYeowOA24HVhDh7Cm+TnEvuixxuA1ouUGXTRA= =W6BM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_63819CCE-7BBD-488A-94B8-E2CFD375DA9D-- From nobody Fri Apr 23 08:01:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF06E3A10CB; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:01:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wNsbva04vhSL; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B4003A0E73; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FRcv217Pbz102k; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 17:01:34 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2563B42A-20A4-4A9F-B9CA-518A72A0A095@eggert.org> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 17:01:33 +0200 Cc: GENDISPATCH List , ietf@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 640882893.746574-a286809f5522b683e8dcfbd0ac6e1759 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9E29CE4C-B2C8-4A85-9134-F3529EE919F2@tzi.org> References: <161918836800.7390.6996403788262551415@ietfa.amsl.com> <2563B42A-20A4-4A9F-B9CA-518A72A0A095@eggert.org> To: terminology@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:01:42 -0000 On 2021-04-23, at 16:43, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 >> The WG will >> identify and recommend external, independently updated resources=20 I=E2=80=99d add =E2=80=9Ca small set of=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 this list is = not intended to be exhaustive, but useful for authors (and the kitchen = sink isn=E2=80=99t). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Apr 23 08:03:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531FE3A10DF; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:03:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E-dRbSDUILj4; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2126.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.126]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B85843A10D4; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:03:11 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=j6DS+8m/WCrAdim3OLn8GSOqHXrh5HRUtbfj4PH7XjrAIaiPjZ8KFerz4NStl2c2Wgr+2z79FRLx8m6wWmTPAxZmAemj0DqbdHwwiF9flesfX9qbD0AbuKItFecVCZ+VeCSnO/ETef2neJAgifMdfb9f48K+FqaxXgJ4rmaTewVtMWff/OjBTTg8jIrqd5fIdYiYkVQkUkfqiSMM05y9jZPBT40xYHW5YQS72qLaD8xUza3cN27OgW9RLI2AQZwO7/NMDvqHdjYsGXEGATfweBH4tjckoC7D9rp+9Q7R6aEk1DaGyVAoQaaFTzz0TDkBlztfW3jNXNCWP7etvIZU7Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=GAkKulfnfmc13XObghOEAdAS7J603XEp0wU3iHC1GP4=; b=gejHCZ+3/YkUgXjDwqJESRBDg+AplTlOnvjlpTGPanxsY0sz3d2M+8BwwNr4TpPM6Lgla62Tk7/Vdd+4DJiUX8YdW2fMSLHGUdAlmfc8QHtKza/54ypMZcg9oBV+8u6fK6YC0pzPOdXiqQPeAIIvtd8VzMWCQlh5LovWqI+Ncinee5kEAFdIzmCBIRA4hLSkmIvpAdwzu6XQZahlkhUrcNlQOCdm/XD3jjg/aP1No0Zp+UL1Jy1AmnxLSkXIRqB4XNuQ53USODa3usGZQo0/0l2ia1AlBHaHwUKPAf0X1Hgg2DUdzP0Q2b48gVS/m1MLn6FdxMmUVIp4C19/o0p+ew== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=GAkKulfnfmc13XObghOEAdAS7J603XEp0wU3iHC1GP4=; b=TTbjb09giB9mv8db9G2JsRvc/25ape91+/Vst8sGRzITWOevKMSZ29aQ5odvJgre/NufH+pXs4ELiEkpH5/BOuPMVxl/ZjwuqaTNz6GQPXAqnugFB8R9zZlSxgcucmPnRsfUHhjuDnNossl5E9Rwaz/DWY1BDzX2OP24pYp5qaTOzdLVAfwt//kJFZmhMdWkrBU9epgf3njBUcoKCsYiK/+j+TKUxy/x8lSpTlR5jZeO/n8eU/CrdDLyb2yzJE00UmHRGS1rDrjBnlPhr4KDI02V2/B608VNlhque5DwzSAKOfHe5wdajENwSAYib97cSMH+5Og+JnqXAHW5ftK54w== Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB7PR02MB5289.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:30::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4042.18; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:03:08 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4065.024; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:03:08 +0000 To: terminology@ietf.org Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <161918836800.7390.6996403788262551415@ietfa.amsl.com> <2563B42A-20A4-4A9F-B9CA-518A72A0A095@eggert.org> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:03:05 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: <2563B42A-20A4-4A9F-B9CA-518A72A0A095@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eUb1FLL3mFQ4cwOfXPO9QXugtXyCy6K3Q" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:69d0:8e4e:3184:616c] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR07CA0098.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2c::12) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:69d0:8e4e:3184:616c] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:69d0:8e4e:3184:616c) by DB6PR07CA0098.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2c::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4087.15 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:03:07 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 86a0bcad-cd09-41c6-fe62-08d90668e75b X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB7PR02MB5289: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:323; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(39850400004)(136003)(346002)(366004)(376002)(83380400001)(66476007)(44832011)(8936002)(31696002)(66946007)(66556008)(66616009)(6916009)(4326008)(16526019)(33964004)(316002)(186003)(36756003)(21480400003)(2616005)(86362001)(2906002)(450100002)(235185007)(5660300002)(53546011)(6486002)(478600001)(31686004)(8676002)(52116002)(38100700002)(786003)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?UWpTcUFYOGR4bWFPTlVDcXpiSHNDSmVVYVpBcmtMT1ZWS1orem1CU29nS1FE?= =?utf-8?B?YWNzWktIeXJaaVN2YTV4RVN5eVRMbzlVS0NOQVFCNmV0WWQyeGtDQXZJV1Z3?= =?utf-8?B?ZzI5UkdhaWlseUtqRWZUd2V1VmVvRUJKYkVEQW5mQ1JsdVI5YUlmVXJKdkl1?= =?utf-8?B?Z2tVTys2SjRxaUxNZmh3VG41UnJ2TzI3dnVibVdJRFIyemZRNFFiNmpkaGx6?= =?utf-8?B?UnRTY2xVYnRTa2RUdjJROHc1UnlmYTlUSkdlVHQwODQvY2VYQzJFdkZqNi9G?= =?utf-8?B?Z3BhMW5LV1dTVjNKZ3BDbFhNOHA2R2FyZC8rM09PQ1pQM1hJdUllWFhaSWlt?= =?utf-8?B?NmV4Mko1SWZaaExQSkMrL3VGUmNESE9NYTFpWWM4Mk50Q1BYcHN4ZnloTjk3?= =?utf-8?B?ZHErNXZ5ZnY5ZnZSR0NiYjY2c2laVFA5VXd0RTA4NHI3K1AvK0hxdndNelgz?= =?utf-8?B?MWlSK0tNUi9aRFg5YzY0WTJiQ2xncWNYRGVTNm5VVTdsNzN4ZWh4am5USHJV?= =?utf-8?B?ZVdWeVYzbkpjMDlOVngzTVRUNEo1ZitDLzQyb2JLMFpCTytKZFJNOVJXVE90?= =?utf-8?B?UklFZVZOdjRKTWpFa0lORXBpd0Y4a013TWVwTy9nTXRlNkJVMmtJZFZia2RF?= =?utf-8?B?TkpZSC94YkVDclBJZG1tQ3llRTh1TktHTlBmQXh2NEpjd0NaT1orNEpjc0N2?= =?utf-8?B?WEJXdU5yM0VnOTExdUg1Wk02Q0t4RDNqM0k5V1dmeURyY0VUUTNqcU0wdnBt?= =?utf-8?B?WWlEdzlrWkJBcEkwSUx4VVJaaXhuQ2VUYTI4bXA5SGd2SGtoRFh5VStMQUhG?= =?utf-8?B?SzViY29WR0J6QVVLaWRKMFU2dXJSbytqMEthN3FmTG1hVlQvY1VOMDNTcmdQ?= =?utf-8?B?SjBUeHdUYWphYlUxeFJqU0pUMEhyZmdlUW0zUjJrN1YwQm40UWVkZGRUaTdG?= =?utf-8?B?T2RweGRkdkE2a1JqTFZjbHdzZ1lQZDRJTDAzNlBpazNoQlBVaktmYUxHRGIr?= =?utf-8?B?OWZMcGMwOWRYRXBQSnBQWjdEV2E5S3NaRHplV2dZVDZEY2VHL2w0WEkxOUpD?= =?utf-8?B?N2dvYjV6a2FMQ3NuNzhOZlRmTGlNODBmSTJiRGlmRmlBL1JBTitrTDhZRmJ1?= =?utf-8?B?NXhQYmFwb2FKY0VWSGVsbjYxZWozVENsUWs1WGtzbUJuc0NidWhpdTdrOExt?= =?utf-8?B?d0hHcUIvNCtRNk9aMmp6bk9vZzlRZXNPMkFYNTg0K0dOdkpiTnlQcU5zVlpD?= =?utf-8?B?NGdEdTZ5b3NCeXZKNEIreEdWbFliUWNwTk1YUmZ0U0FhL3dzdVI3alY1Wm50?= =?utf-8?B?eEF2R0w5SHhWSVNxR3JpUlNFb2dlMTEyMnp1OXVqaE9ZNmFlKzRLcmtUV0VJ?= =?utf-8?B?WDlmUGwvL0JBZ09qWldXcWc2RzhWVzIzNG1NREdrZ05xeERBak1Fa0k2cE12?= =?utf-8?B?dU8xa3BKNjJBcG1ydTIyU1g3aG84ZGFNaVk4ZlNFeEZUclExUmpqZXlEVG5k?= =?utf-8?B?Qkw0am5VcEhINzd1dXlxWTRTK3YwaFVmQnpZVHlteS84K1AvTEpBcjkyaWhm?= =?utf-8?B?NzNYRXZSdFZRMmpqQm51c0QrZ0xORXQ0QnVvbURGTzFHRHNxOFNpc0UzUUU2?= =?utf-8?B?K0pBTktCdUV3WEwwa28zQ1dJMS9GR2c5WEhrQ3lZbW9qREtvMEtxWjdEOVRv?= =?utf-8?B?UC9hbDJWNlgyZmthRnN5QVdQSkFncDNGUzYrK09MM0tQazdZNTlSV0Z2Ylkv?= =?utf-8?B?R1o0QTBjLzVOY3J6d1hwclJDckFKL2lkNEY4MHZ5NVZXZDcrazdwN1k2UEh4?= =?utf-8?B?Q3VMN2VGV2RmdkMxZXJHR3VTQkZFZnRnSEQ1ek5tcHBZUGEwa1pGaS9qYmxz?= =?utf-8?Q?dIjEFobkQU9jE?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 86a0bcad-cd09-41c6-fe62-08d90668e75b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Apr 2021 15:03:07.9196 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: quvZLfCYU0eViKpReBpXeQWSnCPzpP9K5vwjD6wPGeT9m3+3D5Cpw+Mkr99YAJno X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR02MB5289 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:03:17 -0000 --eUb1FLL3mFQ4cwOfXPO9QXugtXyCy6K3Q Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="n2q8gbA378y9KGDruFR9g98MuGUT5kmaj"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: terminology@ietf.org Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) References: <161918836800.7390.6996403788262551415@ietfa.amsl.com> <2563B42A-20A4-4A9F-B9CA-518A72A0A095@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <2563B42A-20A4-4A9F-B9CA-518A72A0A095@eggert.org> --n2q8gbA378y9KGDruFR9g98MuGUT5kmaj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7C19869EF3239F850714757E" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7C19869EF3239F850714757E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, In general I support this. I think it's a mistake to craft or point at a curated list of bad terms as I've said before but I seem to be in the rough on that, which is ok. One related nit though: On 23/04/2021 15:43, Lars Eggert wrote: > The WG will > identify and recommend external, independently updated resources contai= ning > examples of potentially problematic terms and potential alternatives to= IETF > participants for their consideration, to align its efforts with broader= > activities by the technology industry. The "will" there seems wrong. Even if the WG does identity a perfect external resource for this, that resource could disappear or become lots less perfect over time. Maybe s/will identify and recommend/will consider and potentially recommend/ or something like that? Cheers, S. --------------7C19869EF3239F850714757E Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------7C19869EF3239F850714757E-- --n2q8gbA378y9KGDruFR9g98MuGUT5kmaj-- --eUb1FLL3mFQ4cwOfXPO9QXugtXyCy6K3Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmCC4akFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qV XA/+PmOf1QOgdWQga7msoFPw4nqJSzq0Nn/ky97OzoDcE7yOGfiaJu15OH1MCRpkxufv2n0+nUhi 8yp4bwnhZO7VAUje/7XZWTQSMQl3AG27wyktMMjKi8HOYVTo77SuxNLpfUWBnc3UN2DeZhoINeTQ kOQr5JSBCZ8amV2ExxK4YwETrbwPoEvG/mzm6vdX5tFVg5nin4urUzs6vPUAjxbrKo/+8R1MwZec zmkwMOLOmP7xntFdlALhORmBPqxTtGsZU/v81gQPXb1yoLDADoSisadB+i7Tc/Y8DvI0e1+CXIms hXG0hwoIrHOwi5JxlD8wbrGEwYzdwqlgKvS89bHX1QNJKcOkcke3Qq9/dvs8+hbQsmsxQMpGnzwB Xajlez4sghbFn9P6iJ/8ltqLh8/khUJN0F7snVFeRDW11n8xT/B87hCq6cw5bP3pwU053m8ABZBb xcUeFF+yCyp1c/rz2TCtnjYFtoaGl4mUWoFujpW5xYmeO0upGvrXo5aitfGaTzRZk+AGrszbK6kZ V5F0KfwhCGGOrd6XYP/zE1ntwVMbpR6G+gnGHfJHvZx0bpukxSvmeuGtrQhpHWQR40VcJPcCiOFi jh8Yt7e7M/jFC2r5pcSbuA/sajiX7ZzSwq+YDA/6jz3YF1caPQQ+lN1oRwzs8DM5sBXLsLDzUbTW Tk4= =mGz6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eUb1FLL3mFQ4cwOfXPO9QXugtXyCy6K3Q-- From nobody Fri Apr 23 11:54:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33FC3A1A2A for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:54:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zfH8SekvE6aC for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1743E3A1A27 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QS10QZ945UFED@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 13:54:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QS100H835SCNX@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:53:01 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:54:13 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: Kirsty P , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-id: <0cfcab95-c984-8e92-03e4-56ff04e9b7bd@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_F8Q/9OlAqQQDm+SiLGSEcg)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <20210411095943.94541.qmail@submit.iecc.com> <7BFD0381-6280-4C9D-9887-48B4572684DA@episteme.net> <54b8da6b-a6a6-4785-89f1-3050d9eff438@dogfood.fastmail.com> <966a3b8b-9733-f518-f345-fa05431172af@lounge.org> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210420] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 18:54:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_F8Q/9OlAqQQDm+SiLGSEcg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT   Hi Kirsty,   If you're going to threaten people (and saying my posting privileges can be suspended is a threat-- communicated intent to inflict loss on another) then the words you use to justify your actions are very important. Don't focus so intently on the definitions, you say? I focus on them because you're using them in a way that can adversely affect me. If you mean something else then say something else. If that something else doesn't jive with the policy you're trying to enforce then that should tell you something.   If you want to tell someone that they should be more tactful and less aggressive in email then that's a message that can be received and processed. For instance, you could say, "You might've not meant to come across that way but your response was curt and the implied tone could easily be misinterpreted." Again, a message that can be received and processed that would result in what you seem to want better than a threat that has trouble being justified.   regards,   Dan. On 4/23/21 2:26 AM, Kirsty P wrote: > Hi Dan, > > The previous warning was jointly written by Kirsty and Pete as > co-chairs, as is this email. > > What is most important here is that we're trying to maintain > productive, non-aggressive and on-topic discussion on the list and > however that is achieved, it works for us. > > For example, continuing a discussion about Kirsty's auto-appended > disclaimer (instead of dropping it) is continuing off-topic discussion > that isn't helpful to the list. > > > So we'd encourage you not to focus intensely on the definitions of > words (by characteri[sz]ing, we mean"depicting (often in a negative > light)") but try to understand the bigger picture that is being > conveyed which is: we'd like to you participate, to discuss ideas and > messages, without attacking people - however, the way you sometimes > participate disengages others unfairly, so it needs to shift or we'll > inevitably have to postpone your privileges and we'll lose your > insights on the topic being discussed. Which is not a great outcome > for anyone. > > > To be clear, you would need to commit another infraction before your > posting privileges would be suspended for 30 days, as detailed in > RFC3934 [1]. > > > However, like all other WG chair decisions, any suspension of posting > privileges is subject to appeal, as described in RFC 2026 [2]. You are > most welcome to invoke that procedure should you wish to, if we get to > that point (let's hope we don't). > > > Kirsty and Pete > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Gendispatch on behalf of Dan > Harkins > *Sent:* 22 April 2021 05:12 > *To:* gendispatch@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from > the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021) > >   Hi Bron, > > On 4/20/21 3:00 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote: >> Damn it Dan, being a jerk doesn't help your cause any or make it >> easier to support any good points you make. >> >> This email was straight up jerk. > >   Yes, you're right. It was jerk. I can, and should, do better. > >> She works at an organisation which enforces such crap on all outbound >> email.  Boo hoo, sucks to be her - but that's what pays the bills and >> there are other things about working there which are less awful, I'm >> sure. > >   Well, there are plenty of free email accounts to use. No requirement > to succumb to the whims of someone in legal. > >> You're pounding on the table.  Please desist for the sake of everyone >> else in this conversation.  It makes it look like the facts and the >> law aren't on your side. > >   Point very well taken. I do think facts are on my side and I do > think I have > been obscuring that with my, as you put it, straight up jerk email. > >   Facts are: >     - There was nothing in my email that "characterized another > participant >        on the list". I did not make reference to anyone's distinctive > features >        which is what "characterize" means. I said someone is probably > not the >        right person to write a draft and Kirsty snipped the reasoning. > Yes, I >        probably could've said that with more tact but snipping an email to >        make it look worse in order to justify a public notice > is...well, not really >        right. >     - Kirsty makes it look like there were two issues in the past but > they're >        both references to the same post of mine that resulted in an >        admonishment by Pete and Francesca. >     - And as I said to Pete and Francesca in a zoom call at the time, > I did >        nothing wrong. They were criticizing me for doing things others did >        that got no public notice. It was/is viewpoint discrimination > and that's >        not right. Pete, at the time excused his viewpoint > discrimination because >        he said I was trolling. His reasoning for that? I had to be, > because I was >        being given a public notice, he just asserted it must be true > because it >        justified his behavor. It was the most circular of reasoning. > > These are not legitimate reasons to remove my posting privileges. > >   Dan. > >> Regards, >> >> Bron. >> >> On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 06:17, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> >>> You know what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some >>> vague legalesey footer. >>> >>>   You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone >>> (what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA request! Is >>> that a joke? >>> >>>   Dan. >>> >>> On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirsty P wrote: >>>> >>>> On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote: >>>> >>>> >On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference >>>> >> it is now (as suggested in other drafts). >>>> >>>> >   To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a >>>> > draft to cancel the IETF list. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dan, >>>> >>>> That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant >>>> on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly. >>>> >>>> While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning >>>> (RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public >>>> warning on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last >>>> October[1][2], we >>>> are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such >>>> characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be >>>> tolerated and your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens >>>> again. >>>> >>>> Kirsty and Pete >>>> >>>> [1] >>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUMGn94SQ >>>> >>>> [2] >>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3DtE0gfOs >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act >>>> 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information >>>> legislation. Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk >>>> . All material is UK Crown Copyright © >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to >>> escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius >>> -- >>> Gendispatch mailing list >>> Gendispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >>> >>> >> >> -- >>   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd >> brong@fastmailteam.com >> >> >> > > -- > "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to > escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius > -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_F8Q/9OlAqQQDm+SiLGSEcg) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
  Hi Kirsty,

  If you're going to threaten people (and saying my posting privileges can be
suspended is a threat-- communicated intent to inflict loss on another) then
the words you use to justify your actions are very important. Don't focus so
intently on the definitions, you say? I focus on them because you're using
them in a way that can adversely affect me. If you mean something else then
say something else. If that something else doesn't jive with the policy you're
trying to enforce then that should tell you something.

  If you want to tell someone that they should be more tactful and less
aggressive in email then that's a message that can be received and processed.
For instance, you could say, "You might've not meant to come across that way
but your response was curt and the implied tone could easily be misinterpreted."
Again, a message that can be received and processed that would result in what
you seem to want better than a threat that has trouble being justified.

  regards,

  Dan.

On 4/23/21 2:26 AM, Kirsty P wrote:
Hi Dan,

The previous warning was jointly written by Kirsty and Pete as co-chairs, as is this email.

What is most important here is that we're trying to maintain productive, non-aggressive and on-topic discussion on the list and however that is achieved, it works for us.

For example, continuing a discussion about Kirsty's auto-appended disclaimer (instead of dropping it) is continuing off-topic discussion that isn't helpful to the list.


So we'd encourage you not to focus intensely on the definitions of words (by characteri[sz]ing, we mean "depicting (often in a negative light)") but try to understand the bigger picture that is being conveyed which is: we'd like to you participate, to discuss ideas and messages, without attacking people - however, the way you sometimes participate disengages others unfairly, so it needs to shift or we'll inevitably have to postpone your privileges and we'll lose your insights on the topic being discussed. Which is not a great outcome for anyone.


To be clear, you would need to commit another infraction before your posting privileges would be suspended for 30 days, as detailed in RFC3934 [1].


However, like all other WG chair decisions, any suspension of posting privileges is subject to appeal, as described in RFC 2026 [2]. You are most welcome to invoke that procedure should you wish to, if we get to that point (let's hope we don't).


Kirsty and Pete



From: Gendispatch <gendispatch-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>
Sent: 22 April 2021 05:12
To: gendispatch@ietf.org <gendispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Final public warning (Was: Messages from the gendispatch list for the week ending Sun Apr 11 06:00:06 2021)
 

  Hi Bron,

On 4/20/21 3:00 AM, Bron Gondwana wrote:
Damn it Dan, being a jerk doesn't help your cause any or make it easier to support any good points you make.

This email was straight up jerk.

  Yes, you're right. It was jerk. I can, and should, do better.

She works at an organisation which enforces such crap on all outbound email.  Boo hoo, sucks to be her - but that's what pays the bills and there are other things about working there which are less awful, I'm sure.

  Well, there are plenty of free email accounts to use. No requirement
to succumb to the whims of someone in legal.

You're pounding on the table.  Please desist for the sake of everyone else in this conversation.  It makes it look like the facts and the law aren't on your side.

  Point very well taken. I do think facts are on my side and I do think I have
been obscuring that with my, as you put it, straight up jerk email.

  Facts are:
    - There was nothing in my email that "characterized another participant
       on the list". I did not make reference to anyone's distinctive features
       which is what "characterize" means. I said someone is probably not the
       right person to write a draft and Kirsty snipped the reasoning. Yes, I
       probably could've said that with more tact but snipping an email to
       make it look worse in order to justify a public notice is...well, not really
       right.
    - Kirsty makes it look like there were two issues in the past but they're
       both references to the same post of mine that resulted in an
       admonishment by Pete and Francesca.
    - And as I said to Pete and Francesca in a zoom call at the time, I did
       nothing wrong. They were criticizing me for doing things others did
       that got no public notice. It was/is viewpoint discrimination and that's
       not right. Pete, at the time excused his viewpoint discrimination because
       he said I was trolling. His reasoning for that? I had to be, because I was
       being given a public notice, he just asserted it must be true because it
       justified his behavor. It was the most circular of reasoning.

These are not legitimate reasons to remove my posting privileges.

  Dan.

Regards,

Bron.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 06:17, Dan Harkins wrote:

  You know what's inappropriate? Copyrighting your email with some
vague legalesey footer.

  You chastising my reference to the distinctive features of someone
(what "characterizing" means) is not subject to a FOIA request! Is
that a joke?

  Dan.

On 4/19/21 10:13 AM, Kirsty P wrote:

On 14 Apr 2021, at 18:27, Dan Harkins wrote:

>On 4/14/21 3:55 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
>>
>> To me, it shows that the IETF list should not be given the deference
>> it is now (as suggested in other drafts).

>   To me it shows that you're probably not the right person to write a
> draft to cancel the IETF list.


Dan, 

That comment is inappropriate, characterizing another participant
on the list. You've been warned about this sort of message repeatedly.

While the chairs are under no obligation to give you a public warning
(RFC 3934 only says "the WG chair should send at least one public
warning on the WG mailing list"), given the events of last October[1][2], we
are inclined to give you this one final public warning: Such
characterizations or other disruptive behaviour on the list will not be
tolerated and your posting privileges will be suspended if it happens
again.

Kirsty and Pete

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/fjyO2yW8ltVLD9jL2blUMGn94SQ
[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/CnaOc7y8s6L77z0h-b3DtE0gfOs





This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright © 


-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
-- 
Gendispatch mailing list


--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com




-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius


-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_F8Q/9OlAqQQDm+SiLGSEcg)-- From nobody Fri Apr 23 13:53:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6397B3A0B69 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 13:53:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XNwJfIW5XgRK for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 13:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6D703A0B63 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 13:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC5B5C0066 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:52:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=sW0CuSgV2yRQ3XHHQpllDBdJAXH6ypQkkBsqsHv7r Vo=; b=qcxsLAQMS8KgoFbyUyWwKP81NLcQjwqJUyDE0QQ/woySWDSntSEIku9g1 YfbJiJknrv3Hf/gNABhrYcuSij9eZ2MI3XQHNKieEqp3SMe2n3yPP9JySXa/goh0 MgV/6XGdWjGdahXTsa9fxjcoEd6pJgxqhTa9FYU1dnzcZR48aE5fHGiajviLwb0/ UeVoV+PuKgg9GmxpCp+WuFUzJy3v8ZZQViQ+UeWF5gL44yaUb2y8NIQYvtS9xHtS TW5cGEEyCTN/oqb6YfQGDxAhE1aU1JRy5v+gnefynUALJPjIjbMMlvENih5jMu+E zmC9jF6DpRqRitB/4oHZociNJEVHA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvdduvddgudehfecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedthe efgfefgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedvfedr uddvgedruddtrddujedtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.69] (23-124-10-170.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [23.124.10.170]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 15BA5108005C for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:52:58 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <161918836800.7390.6996403788262551415@ietfa.amsl.com> <2563B42A-20A4-4A9F-B9CA-518A72A0A095@eggert.org> <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 16:52:57 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 20:53:04 -0000 On 4/23/21 11:03 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > I think it's a mistake to craft or point at a curated > list of bad terms as I've said before FWIW, I agree.   Or at least, if this turns into an effort to find as many "bad" terms as possible, or an effort to signal more and more "virtue" by excising more and more terms from IETF's vocabulary, IMO that would be a Bad Thing. Keith From nobody Sat Apr 24 01:31:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE843A16BC for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 01:31:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.co.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QIlJr-HqLAjY for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 01:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ABB93A1654 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 01:31:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s2048; t=1619253091; bh=ujiV0yvFxz6XtteayHk6RPcZu7gsI4V9rwxx1+Y135k=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Cc:Date:References:To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=t5yJJVGrtKJNTfnbDiITxGY9IkeA6MfbyYqQE8j5rxytehHNsKl/lvG/Chx2ZyMaKIxrcXxXQ5znzirCRg0gAtjlNDqcU1xCgO4Pg8iZ4WH6kAkaOsHEhNYIK+k95pHEMrf89l3M8ftMjP5SVK31SV+Egimp+6hqPLlQ4Ct1vK6aRS45oTbjdMur4DR+HpaWS/eC5HYIslHTxpUY2Nc77p0f0dk3EpV9MVv/PZDFe7+yb0dy6lDpXWu7xkSUu1vOne6lusqwDTUUgUytQKlK3IYefpXMJpxtxP6DCFhZdECHcuDzabuWCKpqses7F+wiTk4NetC+tJqgIgVP0bCAQw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1619253091; bh=hMjnQDpxoWUE5Qpl784E3cnluFFOSGo8aUvRjlTvq2G=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Subject:From:Date:To:From:Subject; b=l3BKuaHlPrzt0m2Fhw5gOkX1kM7wTgK0wynml9ejXdXPebLY74gGhFwKADboHvQINUYJmrj9/ftwTZYSZNVOjY/mOmoquz+SfSfxJJzgFfpo7yP/3Fz2ztog4ewCDTTwGwg0N2LJcaBZL2dgCrufGDDc1Pbx/PQ8fhLh46xjTItITdaBSXM7aC0NkgTHPOVfgRUOaZBGNzl2SIZMpOoPlVPX9CHEb52/sF+BR1Rsx1gOPABktUC8W1oT1WP5qzI21bcBTVkaXtHt50vuqKfYPorNJI1cDW7L4upfNQlQiCqD2v5XJGsWS8iXgDION12GAJLkOHaScNoQ0xx5pB8CfA== X-YMail-OSG: 2h57L8EVM1kDQ9rmV1DkpEzSLD.8EZfXAnvWXi5_mvHphdbvJAIprz5vUC0q9FG x5AU4xj5muhIO0z7SlAeDSQ_lYITjUi6Oflt9JsRTxkWqzcP_GeayWDEGCgzdUjN8Y75hXXTG8rM F8lINy_uiPAoD7FhOAJKXcZvlsWKULWBJwUfRjlg4_5JIH1m09iWlmAEwS_qx_A562uX7f02KdCQ Pv1MnDmUAp6Eqgx64doAkjH78U3EGWN.Pf6C47MddQOCYiGFGL2N3E9HDPSTFFdxlGWplnREhVgn YFAqw6BENFBmDD1jQ_nmWddRftG3cB7aEJDbIUUVIe9vqEhHfs8UdanxA5KLwFyz2l0WPbMvhQ1e 8vtoeuhE_fdHAznSDLu6bikayQpHccn64OgF.Rqvc3g9dhuu8Vi7hUjUkoba2RZoYUkGRiYXwt7c ZlAl64S1IThYEttRhpcUkRJr.I1UOEwF9wLbKeKtGhR0A1..zuPPbaRCoEIS7kK7NHDezjgl84O. VurlD9KxpsTcDKPPiXPB.86JCtBhmtGB8B4XQNPBJhPDnI4VVFLpVNY5uKjfBCRTikxUSV0rYbvC hxu6liHw_Qt4rpCyH73F7abxKAAAY9_rUaJ3wve_5gtwm3REcgGjFwfVFA8yVarc8WW8W2zAq2DO G9kUPcx.zH5qmZJJZ_2fv5w2jF4JGCkHkOWX9o9qGw6AteLgwE4zqYkttvArn3.8yFxj5hGhznIj jBP0m4b9.kBEGgdV7aA2I7IAQFdqw83Fps8F0sAF02hPaq.RIsrk4UcsMBZX7zdX5Gh4K4hMG77q q2xnpoywqr1iBbsz9Wd7kRj7ObKvOVxdlonSzJL1wYR5dFjirmtdleBvO2WvCls0eDuIoLyf.Yw5 Aj52gp9ozeDPBvWk3IR17KBwlmEhRyIrkcc8PV1dVm2ObL0.RVpsXBb64BOkHPEbXNwKNuLvxjKB MWeNZU2O694LW13QeshO0iSn6FieZ3gkQKKfeE4hcJzRRz37bg25Ha7ugzTqO6TmZtBujawe8l5m eankbr5rZnYMtecrAg_GEFXYoqYunJe7Zmf3FIE9ZsS4aaatKOuqDKTDPRabnusWYMdhNHMe39.Z Uh_TjCQrT0s59hd5Z2vLAMRlwduJtsi_xO11iOBZEpJrKX9X64227hWKftAck2BBRXk_FMrWhw6c QF9zyN0EC2LWbOYVpC3z4TBQVX1crKu.mzeiozyE7LPyPhR_GuZVvHISrEpIPg1ju9wkc6e.DHCm 6tPc4CUfan0TdJuYYG5tCTn3xrkLoCBTTKkkJPKVjHRqtWwrnveXfj73ILMd0_0bNEqJiXQeOZZ6 EgJNrexNKJYacOLgkV2jICNU0nmvOw5zd6Ral1BoUTFLW9ymJCupFD.uxkisI5TgnA5bkVgyODzX 3pe9zlksx9o.ilRrBUu9Cn.4stMWfzWMDWi9.2JkDfKku7MZFUvcJOnJMDcl94Ta8K1rsyCkIJEq d6d.3IkSE4_zwVXphoRGpvTFFVOWXtBzDXkLb7NgGjVZqBaiVnWsHFjGjYHYljZWhhz0IPtrSdeK zqoJnxgOzx3QOuJfcbkXHFYyop_qatpcu3PprUKBfpYrLypSsRrkdCtGbQTrhtxOh4j2vQ9oOhr0 le1Fv4fzh_CLNXqqrWJgHJynnF7qz81deMrHtMcU.Gz8_t3WGqWjhgfSZZLgHQAPDIhs4CWyvXso 5vBXK_bmW75cTTJUiKnwvbC5PFtWFuGQyJ9FdOSTwoCsjpGt9PorRDigkLHL3Z4aQRoKGsml2_Qk ypIbvUtecknPwQUjBvG2.7ugFk9epPx7DfL_M9UiYl68sXdcL_ILYRlkaSwh9cd35TSd4BQPnx.w ZmcqQD4RGBCS9XhOCDTbDS0twTBrjg2qLLZxVbUwq3uUcEhFykTKBhuW38NoOZsf9nz6tbZqV1CI 1hlh6F7pkkOwQj._I0NXpT1.TlEGG8m4AWTCwngmSXjrQrmEa1YCCU_b4mf6DwLeNwciPio55mYK l1lVmM6ldnm9e9.Jn_gYW9KWjU1CkNiwxtcfJD2hezU29ctl9bs1bwKd.dNVu7949k.cCdJn9YrH ccnU1MJNxDLtoEfT_em0MQJb6zrbNx249g0qGl3F686dhcMyWQCc4_Rrd9Q6ePqIIN5GFpxZCheL vldrw4J1ygG3dnZPuP2dJ_omCDp2MPhK6XpUquPscCeqyW0NPkdd9jYzm5Up7_e1.Lg0765.qS4n AvG6b3dYCJl5IsGa5NkBPHh9LvH3Z9Neub.PosL1pGBgbkDTZb6yZ0DpZBXnU3aaeGfCoMh_7FGD 23OJ7HIP5Wy23smK0VJzfVXFAgxG2ZXnOxv7Y0Yfhlm.h9JQyGkynwBl8ZrmVC7DdUCF1wBfFzB1 V8j8Yvi3MTN95coP3wkOZfezidQbEqvvDtkqeD4Z8N66i_D4eIMLI8Acg1kaM.YXMs4pVvPRbhZO MUeYtuxzSv3ASHq8Pu06dEiouu4KSmNJwKDTjPf4l_ufDGAkHuAE3Y_.jPx5fRRWb4I7fi_NAb52 5X0IvF1B5.J.wW.3OZROZVoBk8vDVyneXHoesSH0jBD3wWWLk7J5At4cmG.WFlc3f1.L1nTTnL4e 738zLFb6W16eZsoKc_X7DxpQcmCjTkVS8ZV1jvv6BPIUdu3ohmtE51om.FA-- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:31:31 +0000 Received: by kubenode564.mail-prod1.omega.gq1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ea4180c559ea79de43fff93c2259e6b2; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:31:24 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Lloyd W In-Reply-To: <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> Cc: terminology@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:31:21 +1000 Message-Id: References: <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18D70) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [Terminology] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:31:39 -0000 Stephen how can you support this if you think a list of bad terms is a mistake, whic= h means that you don't support this? Can you actually clearly articulate your position? thanks, Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk I support the war in general, just not any of the actions that the war requi= res. > On 24 Apr 2021, at 01:03, Stephen Farrell wrot= e: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hiya, >=20 > In general I support this. >=20 > I think it's a mistake to craft or point at a curated > list of bad terms as I've said before but I seem to be > in the rough on that, which is ok. From nobody Sat Apr 24 13:25:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD8E3A1DE8; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 13:25:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aGvVlH19aERf; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 13:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr30110.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.3.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 390443A1DE7; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 13:25:39 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=YAbL9KurnUEpRuTkz3xBGIqGhZZcXHreP6DzAtQGbDLpWqVuz6a7zP36bz/zzHX4Cxicb29XtJefyRHdk4ME9+2dRNmty1rpm3OInXoJi3AbQ5OPBn4SprZkCSjS+iZjvOydIri7xh583lHUkGHz0xan/dobBsluHgclkEy/NcJQptnxVkMheAmooy/epeM1ul4ajkUb6aKwShUslS4Ox9bh9YepwVXYr76nl7R8vHja6jzKfNKrbWrN95OwQIx1HX0kJEsJBZaPTodCpcJ07eEnRbvlFfMtwoRL0io/xsji+0hughD504g1FOVY5T76LA0Oqgd5DgZzq9Rx/mpvdg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1m7SxObaK6IHcy+LELN/akcOWgjfsI+AETOEJzdRuqQ=; b=lbAV312i3ovtEc0y75VyFrGUsYJxzdvuXYayJtGhEPEbhjR4hRPvuCJIMqUuA4OBTdrSpj5SZeuz31XVd1xXCSZ/+oYj9a0pu5DKwLOBr/dkhlFljXH5bUFIq/Jbn1KOu11fV9NHFB91FmkSnvpYy01iG00KG/Mgl+yjkQ0daP3pMXqcPW6aK7nR1fLEfMrO0ICuQOir2RXvI90uq1N8FThqlo864v3CUS15Kvtq17DDrIQ21ErKY7gC7pwUPrYQN+m3HzzEpTcrBF1JcfID8ybyJ3KrW6JHwPaCVh9ldVuN2ldebSSLuAsI+6bV//HefkbAlxIdrVOJHV2aR+kFog== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1m7SxObaK6IHcy+LELN/akcOWgjfsI+AETOEJzdRuqQ=; b=XxCeO0o8qve7WGqTfGDOEeix11sMShpyVlAuZQm+HwYxSCfsXQR+cePRZvvLH1Yf6UHVQqgrRLW38Du/K9LXVavncmpdh6dRnKZdy1km87bbso5G4IQRmn4XHnRPO4fYEVwyEtBgoujHgI9HiKbJOiSOK0oWV4+W2N7eFgmOaDETl58ldfmzE60tn+Ahkf4ZfM1IuXIH+M9FgbYRdUUWh1d0u+doFQaOUhowMFfs5C2hg4tig4EVM8tn59/fzmyDW9vwNOeJSWbXTQH2Hbqx17UXZ7NiSQprrVbrInv5+Oi/E1XJ2yHKh7dhIBgMwmBzFbGOXEGwOKlnXTWwzs/1dg== Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB6PR02MB3221.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:19::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4042.16; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:25:36 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4065.025; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:25:36 +0000 To: Lloyd W Cc: terminology@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org References: <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <76310f57-0637-c5e0-c715-ee25785c7f11@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 21:25:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZDQ7zOZXsbYx1AFb0KUS2sN23CU1N4VZi" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:c1e8:917c:6299:927] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB9PR01CA0013.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:10:1d8::18) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:c1e8:917c:6299:927] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:c1e8:917c:6299:927) by DB9PR01CA0013.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:10:1d8::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4065.20 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:25:35 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 4e20bf5e-6092-4ea4-7eeb-08d9075f1e22 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR02MB3221: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:3044; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(346002)(366004)(396003)(39860400002)(136003)(8936002)(44832011)(53546011)(31686004)(52116002)(83380400001)(5660300002)(4326008)(186003)(38100700002)(2616005)(66476007)(6916009)(66556008)(2906002)(8676002)(31696002)(316002)(786003)(66616009)(478600001)(6486002)(16526019)(86362001)(66946007)(33964004)(21480400003)(36756003)(235185007)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?WE1rMmdZVGhrenVFRTlBUUVqdmV2N1J6ZnRGQ0pNSzJzVk41Z1hJbmluZlJ5?= =?utf-8?B?NGc2ZVh2K1ZlcUh3ZENlNE14aWRGT3A4TjU1MWdGOU5XTElCa0lkYU95cG5I?= =?utf-8?B?VExvRXo0RmFGM1hQMUZWZlRKZ3Z2dUVmeTFFdnA4eXFySjkzc1FkeW81RlRJ?= =?utf-8?B?clhMbThEbG5YRzVmY0w3MTg2YnNib0kyUmZWVUFZc0ZiMW0zbjFhT0dOV3lh?= =?utf-8?B?ZEEvSnYwTVNzNWRETUh4V0Y5ZHhNRlJiZUV0N2hvY3ExdEp5SEFYbDUyOStT?= =?utf-8?B?VEgvZm1kUWlrajVVZDZXSDV0ajc2ckpoUFJZSTJjR0k2blp1MmZ3RWk3MmQ4?= =?utf-8?B?VUNaVTFpVlg0QjZmOGlTQ1VLUVRLbFVyZm5aa1lyUit1ZUpFQWYyZWhFU09D?= =?utf-8?B?dXlLRkN0Tm5pd0NDczlYbk5vdU1ZcmdDWmhyaU4xVU5JNXZZblZpa2xaODRT?= =?utf-8?B?d0cyQThOc09DNG1ENlFkaHRudHljZUNuem9raWxSMzhRYUhlOGkrS2NqNnQv?= =?utf-8?B?dnZOcVY4NHlqMkhoTnZIRStvZlFrVGYvRXZxMzRFY2pzMmxlL3AwdVpBQzky?= =?utf-8?B?ekpIb0dOc1lManM1SVZ6eXZlblVFSXM2RXhacE9aVlNDbkJjNmRxc0pXZENv?= =?utf-8?B?emlpOGM4Rmw3NDRFcXhYcWQ0WWJrbmlQLzQ3MWowT3hnSENVazh0TWtZcldD?= =?utf-8?B?NXRkbXN6VG9rRGJ4V2dwQittZnI2Q1NkT2ErUUdYV29vc3dGNnd6TEY2SXBP?= =?utf-8?B?MWxrbHhqRDBaNm5HdlRTckdoQ3Ntdkk3TjhVcW5JMWtzdnE2T3NnZEU5djFG?= =?utf-8?B?YzVCOHBEU2V5WURQSFl4SHpucUpNa2k0ZXdFYUpGNjh4RElaYWpRSWhnL1ZO?= =?utf-8?B?VnlmVkhRY3dhSXZBd09MdkUrSkZ6cGt1SnRTRW9SZEZLVFVSdCs0QlJlMjJ0?= =?utf-8?B?ZFF5UmJxK0JkZHJ2d1h6akhWckZJYzNhU1hRMXhoK3dpUndPc3ZCM3JUYWs2?= =?utf-8?B?RmZMbDFmeGFacStMbDNhazBBVE5UdVBlRkRlemRPODlrL05vTTZMZmY1b2kr?= =?utf-8?B?dEYxR1RpL0VVMnlOWnEvK0dhQmJRQTJyUy8ybTU1MGpJckthZFdkNklNQzRS?= =?utf-8?B?MWk4a0d3NnFBbGd0bFNiT2dLTExFZUZOdC8yUjJWSmpBTHlYbjErald3Qzhy?= =?utf-8?B?TlNNdC9zQVZNY3J4UVZPTDJpdTZLQlpKaGxFRjJ6d1ZxN2FRMzhHOE5BVTFy?= =?utf-8?B?YnB6RjhYTWdSSmRqMGo4SkNEb1kyblF2U0gwcS9PYkE1bW1RMHdJRWdqanJq?= =?utf-8?B?Q29rRm4rMGxVSk9JWUZ1NjFQNDJJYmg1NXZvKzJaRzBjdEUrcWY0MFArYWo4?= =?utf-8?B?SS9ndDVhc3dNTkpMcDB0OGg0bDRJRyt3ZDRUNUxETGtGL05jc20xbm1Kbi9Y?= =?utf-8?B?SGxSUms5dVIyNTIranlEZkJBQi9lUHJ6bi9iVUZUd1ltVkFjYkxpMGxoOXdW?= =?utf-8?B?enNiN0RtTFk1b09xRklJWEpjZmk3eXM2STZ6N2NGZDNIN3hMdmFucCtMZHlX?= =?utf-8?B?ODJZOUpSalFTeDVac2c1QlZ2L2pna2lEUFZYUGN3TjYyMnZJUnZIN1ZmRnRm?= =?utf-8?B?VFYrcUlsdW5tT1RKeUFlbEo0WWtJOEhGWVdGYkZyWmRXdE9wcEUxd2ZtV2w5?= =?utf-8?B?NUZuZ0JuMW9XcHVHczlpdDFvNS9xekNJcEpDamZGbVRGYXNMRm56Z0Y0Ty90?= =?utf-8?B?dHhpblliQkhSenF0aGc4enc3MWdJMm9ZUmlRS0s4bXlsK01zN1Z2ZlpvZXMv?= =?utf-8?B?Q0hCWXJkREtQekhWS2dJWEtHZi82eVhXOVNVVkFqc0dhbzIwcGltR0RsVVU2?= =?utf-8?Q?4h5tsy/W9a63/?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4e20bf5e-6092-4ea4-7eeb-08d9075f1e22 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2021 20:25:36.0739 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: K/HdCbLLewvCWZ3eExUGFBxv3qJUZD/0EwJwQRMJDlbM72fGpU75pueWXavSegW1 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR02MB3221 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [Terminology] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:25:46 -0000 --ZDQ7zOZXsbYx1AFb0KUS2sN23CU1N4VZi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="TgKNZrSIVaY0UNG8WaJhGq5SYgwk9yMLe"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Lloyd W Cc: terminology@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <76310f57-0637-c5e0-c715-ee25785c7f11@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Terminology] [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) References: <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --TgKNZrSIVaY0UNG8WaJhGq5SYgwk9yMLe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------98904C42F13019FEA08C96FB" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------98904C42F13019FEA08C96FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 24/04/2021 09:31, Lloyd W wrote: > Stephen >=20 > how can you support this if you think a list of bad terms is a > mistake, which means that you don't support this? No that's not correct. The list is only one aspect of the overall charter. I'm fine with a WG crafting an informational RFC that gives us better guidance as to how to write better drafts, and am ok that that includes a few examples of terms that are now considered less good. I think a curated list of bad terms is a mistake because it threatens to prolong and occasionally re-ignite controversies around terminology. Secondly, no matter what opinion one holds on any specific term, the risk exists that the list's then curators have the opposite opinion at some future date. So, I think it's a mistake to consider such a list from any starting position. Cheers, S. >=20 > Can you actually clearly articulate your position? > > thanks, >=20 > Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >=20 > I support the war in general, just not any of the actions that the > war requires. >=20 >> On 24 Apr 2021, at 01:03, Stephen Farrell >> wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF Hiya, >>=20 >> In general I support this. >>=20 >> I think it's a mistake to craft or point at a curated list of bad >> terms as I've said before but I seem to be in the rough on that, >> which is ok. >=20 --------------98904C42F13019FEA08C96FB Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------98904C42F13019FEA08C96FB-- --TgKNZrSIVaY0UNG8WaJhGq5SYgwk9yMLe-- --ZDQ7zOZXsbYx1AFb0KUS2sN23CU1N4VZi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmCEfr4FAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+pw kA//Zo7Xw4CQMC6ac8vxF9WIR7ElHsAz8pBhvP7vLxdZ/kz38P2uiP/UWvQItRajtNewTBiBHPs+ o1ZFivCr3KZaAZif5y6JwziLPI/Xw8NR3mapHJdUPdrC0f/zRnSLj0+hUch69aYvM/dlpI0XRzG7 0PySnyarCeoRrF1U5JOgertYtOd0Dr/kUqn8iw9KNXfM2dqNHo5dEO+xK+H10RfFxBzZ8SDAV5fN 1JeOOADqWDYmbMeJcjTI0sPX7dPR9ovuwrc9ckAaaMt2KpISSiglMolNh429BGn0udIX+pkwm8DE CCx1oKu5xJH0C7hJCoM8Lx5iftruxXgct2P6Gz3frzzi6rGfwyQ0daEwtg9/ES7RfiMv+vDFXXZU utHzUSgjBbixxPlNCBse9UfBlQ9dbL1TEIgevhkFCLMgqoDC9cHfRlDun3FwIJxml+DRVlf/UZi5 9QdLSDQeXxno5MWvh923+IeTVLh3GUS5iGVRNGMeAqMmTzxIDS69GFnu3Q6hDLnTFYUsSNzl4X0n NbTJqTU+MtA8OIRGYo3JIVCSWaD+RnqpdvjcSurbVG6jVy04t5yhTZezfdpK09dZuhnaSAxnDh0+ B+FZqWECYzDe/L53zb4l7HwRR5ePGQmzJMd/ZeH1NSI5DfdWMxnfbwETK+O5WkJeOgBa8RoFZqui 2v4= =1dgJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZDQ7zOZXsbYx1AFb0KUS2sN23CU1N4VZi-- From nobody Sat Apr 24 17:07:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC70F3A26BA for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 17:07:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.co.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VPaAn7ThzMbh for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 17:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic303-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic303-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98AE93A2665 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 17:07:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s2048; t=1619309246; bh=ahAMdHH7KkXMuoliHx9SZx633ghv0JI4PXd1LUmvMNo=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Cc:Date:References:To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=IBASeyrtPswuVRGgspiqh1fZUaRioJ7OeJzDUuPZaiOv0nfMDk14WPjjMR8HsmFX2rwmAxSxfqWReoK9uVo6fw0x4b7yl0bZaujMvVXbNlb0xMovNICO65Dj1xrfMYEd8GrNxFbE3ZPI4ghwKwJPWafMxWqtL/PbU4JzZ5qviThTUzj8wPLJ7XGS/DdLJt58aba5Lz56UwCMN+Gy/jRZxmFmqxt+V+/82pVMDI7L78uN1J+ZZg/SDIHVTzfLj+Y+1mNadZ0HcwmR0D+5yKV7OGgKCQ898e/easgGRs7200tb0tKD9lpwRnQP/zwqwsXhfCKBm4TmprfEX8pjcSE9YQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1619309246; bh=/PHrlFbCxAGYV/ySHPyeIRnGt+6UNxd3t2AX5SK7o5N=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Subject:From:Date:To:From:Subject; b=t+DbaWuESVIruuJ8kXWg/Lfv88wxEEPBJeYkALmERvN835KwgL8K6kQ05a3Lkr1BMVJqV7EvOEpvk1r98I6wVqR6gyhlkr8Bo/R4gDwSa4PCyAPUhIhpSQMa3Ni4Zyusmg/TCOU17iPSdwN/iDFwFtTt3XDA6HIV6X5U3fAVX1QB553cXU+DQ58WumTRCaTsWxOJG7/e3QRqWf8xHl2OlHLUz+R0g1yrl7ZNofeFLIGRSIpCSQLBgBTs1CZ93yZ0KNUXc0jASrNao4jTDX3m5/LlSbYbmlqbKMEh1KbaMxvkY2z6KvYYoQfmKG2lFZhL9McF3tovUq+E0kLmnWZ+wQ== X-YMail-OSG: kkkZewMVM1lI5uw8KXHS0lc_EVYddP8xsJsstJmGLnQrIA_ThySDSaEGsIehoDs QeoXvMEbMLD6mUw3iwpZUAi0Tyxp7J8ERsX9lSX.feZbcls0qdlVhGPY1XIoBHytxqWd8ACByEtg 26N4oMRYeFM.hrGOtPOFgHAeCurjyYz_bk.h0hUf44tOFHyVBtc8_zfkXf1bnFnTahidyOtbFxbf Debf6c2_nOs4I5PPoP1t3qn899SK.S9G7tcd7UiuLVQqRUlD2qAsli6rWuJHxI7Ksq6W.aBZtXOG MDTyxwxSYwYKFVsLTtDW1kYTqTsGAUaaLARzUPm5ARdckWAJh7PSK6KcnK6BK6eYsitwpWBJSMFt _0_sHgTqcppyN4TGMVxSto2dStwaBIU3.8UuSS3.fKRL3T2Xy7z7KZ7iYtHNctI2ZIJZVIp.L0b2 I2ecDpICgUg671WT.tLMxxG2M6FCfhzSlmni7HLE7uXQ5L0THkTxGr0R7jSoep1r4tEuqJ3an.Kl 8ZIZTnCYd1tVn23TPa6LAX2nY1hzPwwE9orjG2BhjzI.EbBBeboVbReyaRSkGm2KzovuJOJZ2FN3 cGViEFfE898HjKeSsp7bRpP6BrLJWtKG70NZIb6KyTILgfKI4MEGpKjQdbxyS4JG81KdGPfxdJJ3 24ff7.2IzPjo48G_wvnhB4faUtzJePjToBq461W9l3MFd7O2zpr2AKtSVUtwaPEaDI1V.ISSIcgd wXCyJCarZGbH2BBxR09I8OS4Gu8c3GESipfCiH5MGdUl5a36vrhtzO8cPvUtjcGByVfL1NthOFmF 9Ha4NpwFn4RZT8D7Cp_SP3edmQfKpxcaao0uapP3oHvPH_zhc_rhQNO8tkbQICEj.tjtfi8e_LkL QOI4u1o_003hN.Vulr1M8gRA2NGjmksrvO46mUlczR3qaTLD.xU6DsWt8UrBoeMnxsSRZBJZhyTH t.JTXAWkPRghChXtR2zOHiZbaK0JP7XMeaam5TdiYjoxvd8jJd7p3Cq8OgEIz5z0sSw8wrL8tYaU YgsJjyBA80jpScMCe0pR1Pb5seTC11uNKrndPRUt_mhM6dcR_Q3MuM9reTWfS2YU_oKBraJH1FmG mq4tmjerQuZnHgT6hSulzkxcic3xAwY8bxOlfqctDuJZZSV0_iJtzvGPz1z81SHpF8IOlWl.HmwR g9ulirxltl8.d9a.y5zEvnMRVh.bs_PHgaggFhT9S2XRoPaKGSXBE4Kog9.PC4egFgYnhbdLLfMz zUeAVE9isXlfsM.jzjAWDJy97BUBMeydiqB.ANLsxvR1SpQHjAZzUr4tnULkK8t9G3EIm_zcc7x7 KinaFX8hgTmtP50eNEhbzK1CDVial.MfJ5cM6HwLdEBF_HFcOcLWmb8b4_m0MC1vvoSFI7nluwwi X0i7MmAf2wZsWt7di97hO4OV7gclWeYh_Uw7GGyYKD.v1BRuQwgvSEmxlK3iLXRZ6sApSPcKi3xX NrhuOWHy3eW6UWhwSN7mc0DjwPD7ja9F8k6UFQUQ3NR3mPj18x5TJmqgb6.pNGIwhrKIU4DD8aPI T0RWkCd4g9zTou2cecud_keuy82wYHy80DcoE4E.c44iFPxw_PEMDjHtaznes2yt05l.GCS0QaoA 51sst9MacyP4lUWqKZp00yoRBIIhcYxO4ohenoPJqduUP8rf7XbFIo13kVQrrkvBTpwRfEfgszvT RCCPmPoUpA8HPu1F1eiLWaoWhGqn51ycMycVU60YPLMfXYeto0MeL1thkKngSMv1hqxVVww0T5o8 sm9Ebb_TCsSk8yMBGAsFFUYNMb0tFFV7aRvJihzRH2vfXjFF1vQ56xffHFaiTx2msH9wN90qZ15L X1TNiwJ4ikbV92qDtznwG_bUdARX2BND2LjYSPsW4ZPzUPTOR2DNam18ycYfbvEefT1NhZdEIbIG Gg_u4lBMba4uYXUXLCmDxy7N0i7aqVV7R2w53h0oyrS5W2gxEuMBP3LkM2PUC0HQs.pIvo_hsoRI GAm5ve_V6Ga5n6Q5zIPqHykQmhmVtM.3Q_xqwAMH4mV339aJqyjaO.25NQXtPY_dY4yWbPzFnjZs uXKwQK4GBg57QUxxQgf_I7UcdR7a4ZCFfddk1OF7EzivuWhUCIOLYaUh6Q_7TmrgY0bi9IlhI4ME F3S68FkBG_T7ImhtbWmgD6QrK25ijVjDawEuxQgTCY.oQXKKhKvdTBKJzxhe3otU2LDxw3GHf21m cb4FoU3P4ey289RwG_G1L.gOKXob0nYgwODARZ9fIK0M1z_JBWvXvs7mg3Belm8GqWnMNRsf7A8x nyOPh_iPnPEPlTZlTlYi84n9o3z0FGXPRvVQKq1BusZVYyKpKNwhlxkUIgleAqAGBX5ZKOM4dQRV KErJhPFxKbUTJx.S0oqydYRKshFIM_o17_bZrcRWFgKnjvaMoVYxAGkOiWiB25oiSz9vYobBtMwL pzB6S5vJPXBcac0jytA9LsDgcfd6EeFwrYcpRXTuj7tI3R8Qm0Qj4b.TJllTGaylWnZHHHyMDbbJ zHyVpGjW4mMIYvgOCHDd7lmp5_CjrXnDh6hck2K_9JtSLAEf1mfB4GhQREKahXYmb_jdU.MeEpV7 YDEORH5l85z6_s3sE7UYSqZ8sd6_nrfdLFsPNOyAvvckpzcOmwMA4OKPsew-- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 00:07:26 +0000 Received: by kubenode549.mail-prod1.omega.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c2a148b26803969f0ab78ea2f94f47e5; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 00:07:23 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-E087FDD3-8AA3-43A0-8541-CD3211C5B4ED Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Lloyd W In-Reply-To: <76310f57-0637-c5e0-c715-ee25785c7f11@cs.tcd.ie> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, terminology@ietf.org Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 10:07:20 +1000 Message-Id: <1FCA1A6C-169F-4DD1-AB51-504DC3D027B3@yahoo.co.uk> References: <76310f57-0637-c5e0-c715-ee25785c7f11@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18D70) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [Terminology] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 00:07:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail-E087FDD3-8AA3-43A0-8541-CD3211C5B4ED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen, an informational RFC including 'a few examples of terms' in itself constitut= es a curated list, set in stone. Who decides and crafts that initial list? S= lippery slope, that. The controversies start well before that RFC is done. And, with that in mind, that's why I wrote https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wood-term-modest-proposal/ https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wood-term-modest-proposal-annotations-00 just to call out some problems that I could see with the list idea (and incl= ude better terminology than 'less good'j. And after those drafts were published, 00-04 of the terminology charter was p= roduced, which handily removed any mention of two terms for the list -- beca= use a document without any list of terms is so much more palatable than a do= cument with a list. (and two items IS a list.) yes, the curators of this hypothetical list (or lists) may change their mind= s at a future date. But the trend is to more authoritarianism, not less. Ter= ms that are added to the list clearly should always have been on the list an= d will always be on the list, and who are we, or they, to question that? I think we're long past the point of 'just be sensible and apply best engine= ering judgement'. Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk for my next inspired-by-the-modern-classics draft I will be drawing upon Joy= ce and Ulysses. Seems utterly pointless. But I do have until Bloomsday. > On 25 Apr 2021, at 06:25, Stephen Farrell wrot= e: > =EF=BB=BF >=20 > On 24/04/2021 09:31, Lloyd W wrote: >> Stephen >> how can you support this if you think a list of bad terms is a >> mistake, which means that you don't support this? >=20 > No that's not correct. The list is only one aspect of the > overall charter. >=20 > I'm fine with a WG crafting an informational RFC that gives > us better guidance as to how to write better drafts, and am > ok that that includes a few examples of terms that are now > considered less good. >=20 > I think a curated list of bad terms is a mistake because it > threatens to prolong and occasionally re-ignite controversies > around terminology. Secondly, no matter what opinion one > holds on any specific term, the risk exists that the list's > then curators have the opposite opinion at some future date. > So, I think it's a mistake to consider such a list from any > starting position. >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 >> Can you actually clearly articulate your position? > >> thanks, >> Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >> I support the war in general, just not any of the actions that the >> war requires. >>> On 24 Apr 2021, at 01:03, Stephen Farrell >>> wrote: >>> =EF=BB=BF Hiya, >>> In general I support this. >>> I think it's a mistake to craft or point at a curated list of bad >>> terms as I've said before but I seem to be in the rough on that, >>> which is ok. > > --=20 > Terminology mailing list > Terminology@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminology --Apple-Mail-E087FDD3-8AA3-43A0-8541-CD3211C5B4ED Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stephen,
an informational RFC including 'a few examples of terms' in its= elf constitutes a curated list, set in stone. Who decides and crafts that in= itial list? Slippery slope, that. The controversies start well before that R= FC is done.

And, with that in mind, that's why I wr= ote


just to call o= ut some problems that I could see with the list idea (and include better ter= minology than 'less good'j.

And after those drafts w= ere published, 00-04 of the terminology charter was produced, which handily r= emoved any mention of two terms for the list -- because a document without a= ny list of terms is so much more palatable than a document with a list. (and= two items IS a list.)

yes, the curators of this hy= pothetical list (or lists) may change their minds at a future date. But the t= rend is to more authoritarianism, not less. Terms that are added to the list= clearly should always have been on the list and will always be on the list,= and who are we, or they, to question that?

I think= we're long past the point of 'just be sensible and apply best engineering j= udgement'.

Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wo= od@yahoo.co.uk

for my next inspired-by-the-modern-c= lassics draft I will be drawing upon Joyce and Ulysses. Seems utterly pointl= ess. But I do have until Bloomsday.

On 25 Apr 2021, at 06:25, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farr= ell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

On 24/04/= 2021 09:31, Lloyd W wrote:
Stephen=
how can you support t= his if you think a list of bad terms is a
mistake, which means that you don't support this?

No that's not correct. The list is o= nly one aspect of the
overall charter.

I'm fine with a WG crafting an informational RFC that gives
us better guidance as to how to write better drafts, and am
ok that that includes a few examples of terms that are now
considered less good.

I think a c= urated list of bad terms is a mistake because it
threatens t= o prolong and occasionally re-ignite controversies
around te= rminology. Secondly, no matter what opinion one
holds on any= specific term, the risk exists that the list's
then curator= s have the opposite opinion at some future date.
So, I think= it's a mistake to consider such a list from any
starting po= sition.

Cheers,
S.
Can you actually clearly a= rticulate your position? >
thanks,
Lloy= d Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
I support the war in general, just not any of the actions that the<= /span>
war requires.<= br>
On= 24 Apr 2021, at 01:03, Stephen Farrell
=
<stephen.farrel= l@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF Hiya,
In g= eneral I support this.
I think it's a mistake to craft or po= int at a curated list of bad
terms as I've said before but= I seem to be in the rough on that,
which is ok.
<OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>
= --
Terminology mailing list
Terminolo= gy@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/terminolog= y
= --Apple-Mail-E087FDD3-8AA3-43A0-8541-CD3211C5B4ED-- From nobody Sat Apr 24 18:02:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C87103A27E6; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:01:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id knKsQWUa_VU5; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db8eur05on2113.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.20.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94CE33A27E4; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:01:54 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=kNm9GA/GF72VeyUh2NAiosyUQLpNKleR9o/an2wdgvMv8r59bVuIy4mFe/xtmEKQdQ33pbSB0n1R4aA6XuaLnDABoeig4D4FG/m5ZUit4KQXfBwC1nKXqiptFN+h15SHvCdAFUiqlV4EKOpRs4huvScEIeU4rj4ZfN408XQ8cFISqZ/kLdaSaA5r2y2N9X7nvA9ehA9CMaEBzFlEZBYfu32twKk4/biZcBuJRQ8EtWFJmayDSq8lKiLyIx6J4ucdZKxWHhMOJlntOq1jQ2RsBrq4DZPVoIbUz6XbFUKulagEgBlEJB4kft4ZgFwTFxBh5VocFfDHS7pYOwXxrPU6LA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=810sV5AHtURqiCcAk7G9VX3zEoaryy1rvjAcz4uMpOI=; b=nIeEVpQOdaeFn1KG/5a6urqomuLHApE+msP0PQ/N62X2Dz+FPLRBFz30X4OuPRxJkVBXaCMUQRqkPgnUTEUeUdgacyd/suIi9imE8ZWh5LoVmmlqzZhALhrxWITyaw+JkqkRudEAQUPpV4dTyC/cjTAEm40Cou3RVZCRySg/Ug9JJjg/U4hz3/pK1lYRZTbRCr0hjLPOF8xVZdxDPyFu59M5WDvLm4v6jD9AYtDWI19esxwr3CQRJgcS4JV0QruhrStG4woZCAmwgxVS8IJNnf7322YheAqEdyr0noJKJnD4kaBZfBBAOa3zgM7PtmJcCL6Ok7e0cL/xGnujRMeNyg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=810sV5AHtURqiCcAk7G9VX3zEoaryy1rvjAcz4uMpOI=; b=pYk6tlGbN1izkYiBME5NKx26EVmANOcv8aLUT5jf/HZ1TjZPtE0VAT4jRxoc38IX6RJg/yTruLmNqq3aF0EFD3tKDTgxymXcUCNvrlfBLfEdT1qpx1LVCucqbGPcuHbLdHqljuGDGn3lWtdRAQE+WmsjtFdY+IE8opCXB8So/L3BkeJuSfCfaqT2FpBJMZ4U9xVpzrKnFSxpOdtJ3BRcrLoG65J8wJ5ZuP2Du5d+mvsBIC2hgfUNAs9jwHPvsVAPeHaND4jWQk5bmK9rro7/S3M2fPrHosUxJs9Rdm2mN0BgvhES32Gc5kYP5rgssKoxCQj6lkga6iYUBlK6mciv5A== Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB7PR02MB4492.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:6c::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4065.23; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:01:50 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d8d:9193:d3f3:6cc6%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4065.025; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:01:50 +0000 To: Lloyd W Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, terminology@ietf.org References: <76310f57-0637-c5e0-c715-ee25785c7f11@cs.tcd.ie> <1FCA1A6C-169F-4DD1-AB51-504DC3D027B3@yahoo.co.uk> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 02:01:48 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 In-Reply-To: <1FCA1A6C-169F-4DD1-AB51-504DC3D027B3@yahoo.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cgnlIxgVtkf51Wb1OBTgoxnFj4ghzFKXx" X-Originating-IP: [2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:c1e8:917c:6299:927] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6P18901CA0024.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:4:16::34) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:c1e8:917c:6299:927] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:c1e8:917c:6299:927) by DB6P18901CA0024.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:4:16::34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4065.20 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:01:49 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 15e86df8-ad59-4a76-ec6f-08d90785b521 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB7PR02MB4492: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:4714; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(376002)(366004)(346002)(396003)(39860400002)(136003)(38100700002)(83380400001)(33964004)(52116002)(44832011)(235185007)(8936002)(31686004)(36756003)(5660300002)(21480400003)(316002)(2906002)(16526019)(8676002)(31696002)(186003)(66556008)(6486002)(2616005)(66946007)(66616009)(86362001)(53546011)(786003)(4326008)(6916009)(478600001)(66476007)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: =?utf-8?B?QWViZStIcElUbnM2RW45TEpaMFR1a3g2a3VxRkVYUzNDZ2xjcjdnMUIvd0w0?= =?utf-8?B?K01RY3pSNlNOd09NclNKM0FBSFZqTmM2dm11U1hqQjJteGJRTVpmblozbWhP?= =?utf-8?B?TkR0NzhxeWtsUFAzWWhZdGkvZEdxVWRidjhBeFBCQXhTK2RhQ3dYWEJ0Qnpj?= =?utf-8?B?eDZSMGJNaTlNSk5BVEpyZ2pTYjRPRDhQZ1FRTmluTVRXenRBdzFDOWVyV2FC?= =?utf-8?B?WmRmcVZIc1JJTzVXRDdtd0JUcGExOGVTQTdUbU5ab28zcEs0em9vQkt1Tmc2?= =?utf-8?B?a21FVE5mcDNUQ09sYkhTcllzcVdxeCt5cVhJbkhNak94QmZPVjJwNDVCQyt0?= =?utf-8?B?MXZLaEsxNHQvNlZRUFAwbnMrbXpXbi9EOHFJVjlxQ2FKUDRHWE5qYm16NnZh?= =?utf-8?B?dis5bUpxQUwzclVIa1R0SEhwZXY4ZkwwQjM5NmVlWWNSZ2haUnZuK3JOVlNZ?= =?utf-8?B?VklJR25PNEtvazNiajZFOGVWb2x1SGNHRGZ0ckJPTTZhV3d1dTFtQlZxbmR1?= =?utf-8?B?ZnNSTFRnN2pGTWpzK3JvQ1BTZjNWbXB6UFRjNjNKT0pIbStFOWhZYnl6TG9Z?= =?utf-8?B?UmZMWTNQMzdGaGFYZnFmSmdObnBUSEhhV0ZvbFVPTTY3dmRPSjVnZFlPUkpY?= =?utf-8?B?N0pKaGg4MFE4bFVKNzhabFl1b1Zzd3Jvb2ltRFJjb2xlc1ZZYkFCcWZaWUg4?= =?utf-8?B?MGhkMFFPb3dPaE5ta3ZtbzRIV1dYM1k3ZmpFb0pueURKYk44S0QrZG52dmtM?= =?utf-8?B?V3duMm1UYitTcmx5dkhjdkZZRlI2bHpVL2dtUFVQQzdyaUtuUmFUUTJ5cDNi?= =?utf-8?B?RGluVzJGNFQ1VWZIK3diTlBFc2NvYjdHc2NRRFlUcnhXdUdJaEw5aGNmZENn?= =?utf-8?B?d0VYL2YzcHRJWUxlU3pqblVwc0JiUXEwZnIrUnZPR3FQbzVFaC9zdy8xV0lZ?= =?utf-8?B?dGx3RmNqbHFNQnd1aFpBR3dHOHVBR21TWHJWRkhEZEZyTENBWTBEMXoxdEti?= =?utf-8?B?cmUzMWNpbHJreUNLVUo0SUNBeHVpVTNpVzI1NUE4R3JEdjZTZmV2YS9kODJ4?= =?utf-8?B?T05WbWhWVnBZd1Fnc2ZvU0RBYXlIblBhRERxeEsxY1gxYWZlTHBIN1ZXR2hY?= =?utf-8?B?bEhCcHBVTU5lUmxUS250S2VnZ2d3N1ZERkx4VnNaVTRFWWtDbnFNV1VxT2hN?= =?utf-8?B?UGwyRVdwZ3VvVGQzdFdNcnYvRTlOREJPcVFvUFY2RUhlM3B0aTF0YWVIWVZa?= =?utf-8?B?NTQwMmt5dG9EWlM2VjhyWFdGV1BZSUN2RXRVUXRYc0o5K3VDaEFoL0hLWnJj?= =?utf-8?B?Y1FLVFNMZkl6K0F2UTBCaWJaWHRoNXBld09XRjhISE8rNEhVY2ZLTlVIR092?= =?utf-8?B?T1pZQ2l2TzJydWdqUVFwWlNpOHFpUGZwTzJ5UXBLTEVkbTRsa1FqK0VPaXRt?= =?utf-8?B?Ri9vWkNkWmJVaHQwdm5HcHlBT2NIUys1NXFqc2hjb29idTNOYlp0WlRQUjJ1?= =?utf-8?B?R2o4Y3pDMDJZNzdnWEhQNS93TGpXU0hTeFJFNGRnYUo2MUllL0QrQ3drOWlx?= =?utf-8?B?RjY3S3hjekp1RFdNR1EwelZZaUxaRmpiQ3RPekp0a0hxWnFJRWhPdnpZTXVy?= =?utf-8?B?aVA0S29uZ3pzVE10ZUZWamJrUkcydmt6b3d5d20zakVhMk9GZzhVVWZuWU56?= =?utf-8?B?VGRMTWRvOGRxL1pRaDJ3a2ducGZ0dk13cmFQa3ZheEhqMjJ0bWhqVVZGcmF6?= =?utf-8?B?b0d6dlNrMGhFWGJ0UXdQeGFSN1M0ZkpxQk0rR2ZIdnQ3RVFrTzNhMmgzVXVR?= =?utf-8?B?MzdlT3N6MXdXVnE1QnpuUHErNG1aeElyUklxQkdrMmNyMTNlUWtudmx2dE9z?= =?utf-8?Q?F9ndZWWxgipvQ?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 15e86df8-ad59-4a76-ec6f-08d90785b521 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Apr 2021 01:01:50.3987 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: W4puJVXu2Y2oCOsPOyIacMl/V4UkXeY220AriRoP+4DGR4lrm2cbx+qMVyOLLEJ0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR02MB4492 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [Terminology] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:02:00 -0000 --cgnlIxgVtkf51Wb1OBTgoxnFj4ghzFKXx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="05va5F2rYkzhI9F4mxLMrX4rV8FL2hUwU"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Lloyd W Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, terminology@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Terminology] [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) References: <76310f57-0637-c5e0-c715-ee25785c7f11@cs.tcd.ie> <1FCA1A6C-169F-4DD1-AB51-504DC3D027B3@yahoo.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <1FCA1A6C-169F-4DD1-AB51-504DC3D027B3@yahoo.co.uk> --05va5F2rYkzhI9F4mxLMrX4rV8FL2hUwU Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------98F4F0013F9CAA45AE9720CB" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------98F4F0013F9CAA45AE9720CB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 25/04/2021 01:07, Lloyd W wrote: > Stephen, >=20 > an informational RFC including 'a few examples of terms' in itself > constitutes a curated list, set in stone. I don't agree. Set-in-stone !=3D curated. E.g., I have no problem if we emit an RFC that recommends that blocklist is currently considered better than blacklist in almost all cases. > Who decides and crafts that > initial list?=20 The WG, followed by IETF LC. All normal stuff. Hopefully the draft/RFC will have additional positive guidance and not just a couple of examples of what to not do. But my comment on the charter was more to the effect that considering that an "initial" list would be a mistake, for (at least) the reasons stated in my mail in response to yours. =2E..snip... > yes, the curators of this hypothetical list (or lists) may change > their minds at a future date. But the trend is to more > authoritarianism, not less.=20 Who knows what'll happen in future? My imperfect guess is that we'll mostly lose interest once the fuss dies down TBH;-) Personally, I'll oppose attempts to create any curated list of prohibited terms, but I'm fine with doing that later, if/as needed. (I'm sanguine about having to oppose that even if the charter text says it "will" be done, as I'm fairly sure the proponents of that will see that it's a bad plan later if not sooner - another level of indirection may be good CompSci practice in general, but likely isn't the right plan here:-) Cheers, S. --------------98F4F0013F9CAA45AE9720CB Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER= 8la 5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzSFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT7CwX0EE= wEI ACcFAlo9UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qGC= xAA pYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKkrRl8beJ7j1CWX= Az9 +VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBrsjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPL= F+X +degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZsdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4= g1U QAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpGnvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advre= k3U P71CKxpgtPmkd3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2= niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBGFEZYJGuaL= 4Nw tBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wVN3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m= 6vt ZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8vovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7= +8A CcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozvtEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQ= LvC wFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8= rpK o9OkCz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqmuKhYr= qJs CcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMTAAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVa= W/r KSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQIAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TG= gMW rkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3u= rqR 1cLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/= 0A9 J9nrnBMqZpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5hc= JBD EN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPpMyEs04zvsbsl4= vrp 2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouBur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGA= xvK dcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQyoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaK= xlf tjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjg= Uky o1s4vjUOY8DyI+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIO= aHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg2YVf0izSp= yyz JeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc/MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZ= uLE FraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5w= sDc BBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer= 3UM TVQg10vpa7pmqOGhjIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCP= jt5 uAxmbBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6+uWyK= 171 RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMR= Lpg RKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6KLChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuov= wza tM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0= zG3 6VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ56jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQ= eah r2ez3DRBg3qsHEjBV80yU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQ= GNz LnRjZC5pZT7CwYAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlo+o= 3cC GQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeOM3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKo= w5o DSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3h= Rcs RvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s/69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmC= Y98 iD+EeiIMAWBjMw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jd= h2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSlAblGjwZe4= EIk CXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNgvDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZ= DIJ pdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/rwWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4= tvy a7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4= ul3 qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKAxo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIc= G9g ivQd8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8TCwFwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6NXEGt= w/r 1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYcJf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZ= Jaf 3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbYtWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u1= 4Q0 7+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGf= qtu Sw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7EDuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/C= gHw 26293tlve2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKC= wIE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiPGYnh/CXxIF8eL= rfb e5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dTMrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWF= etu O01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8= v39 +qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZXripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr= 1oD 3RxYNhuWgyGFL64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Pr= m2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCbhrC3+yoby= y/A UOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10MSU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxO= jao P0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXtGKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYz= leL Z7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC= 2X4 pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jsLBcwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g= 1MS BQJbtySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/l//34= YT0 auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sb= edD Sgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF3= 1qG /aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZjCROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcV= YW6 R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DRGd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg= 4Im VOLGqsUgVm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGxm= qyH eLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88zllsqhZAFQjNx= qnk SzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJ= Esc YyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezIz60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n= 2Hw xyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqrZ0tIwsDcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4F= eIY jlIXGghFWzsB4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8E= AuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwlvpNwiiBr4= 2AY R751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGkbPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXH= X5v aT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joBp823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1q= Csw Y/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tq= yA4 3niUMy2n6q690of3berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7m= Eer 0rCL3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP80uU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsI= Dxz dGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPsLBfQQTAQgAJwUCWj1RWgIbAwUJCZQmAAULC= QgH AgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jscEADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZ= i0B igofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhn= i9g OJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7hqVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTy= sIg pMw0bA1yBU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1n= 66v xxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIqhCljJ9x40Fkn/= 3r2 BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjM= YtU N1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nYm2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr= 5iW XO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/= zek ZyXRdS/oDKrBLUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78b= a0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdMLAXAQQAQgABgUCWj1SoAAKCRAvP= Ic2 gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6= XE6 i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I1= 16u /HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWkmfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/J= G9a SSYvk3lznNiH41x9M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IW= OMq N2woDjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBwsFzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcKBFyEz= 0YO K3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4= vYl zkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQOJSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLx= nNb KDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrhB+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+= 5HN HltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgBKVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq= 4hn l5+VC/48ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPwn= Zbg JO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2MvoolsW08FiZh3Ej4d= nJj j25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJlMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8= WLI aGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilc= dPC Yk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0KdAlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTX= o4+ Ira2JUErL2cYzQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YvCwNwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsRO= Tyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04fZ2Ry4nF9= hZM 0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4NkC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5= P3f WYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOosp= cL2 lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbk= etP GRmWvx5xUvb2ALFBBdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3= zRq k3mttto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+QgevYE0= 20q pKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7vxflUEDuzsFNBFo9U= DIB EAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuBHmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x= /nL PCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHE= hOV fBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5MsK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1D= VI9 DYo2D/zE4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7PbT= uW/ eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3vDUew1h5QU1yD= aWT 3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcmoazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q6= 1df mr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r+oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8= MAv 2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22fQ0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOA= HZR 5iCunYghx8b7Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQo= qj1 gwARAQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF6TeR83xD6= Mas qXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfdn3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxi= RkM dNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx252HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB= ++/ KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjNJIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lX= xMD rvKnXMkjseQ2oKjwrIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrf= ZtA ZAGsokRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqYo3pcN= 2OE 0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQkd0YjcqlB1E0svODHT= zcS oRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmUyXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7= IKP 3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhkvMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeW= Iys s6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3D40Nd -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------98F4F0013F9CAA45AE9720CB-- --05va5F2rYkzhI9F4mxLMrX4rV8FL2hUwU-- --cgnlIxgVtkf51Wb1OBTgoxnFj4ghzFKXx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmCEv3wFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+rI pA//ftls9qFGEcXNJW9zyAIZCQZmms5jcVqt8vWlPj6+OTrL/bFmBwvWcHUOlfVXLDWL3vJZ8fpa /zjwOn+SJgG8q9wtW0jECCP9xOqsCco4+/2Q62wwebHzwMgqxdiK3Rpo4O/A8CsMFIdy+psBl37l dHRRn4RkEsRPJc8/TYz7onVHxhx+Jtyz+nii6C0ZQCCvnEsLDin3VKzniEqHt5woDhDG6LW32Zr+ x5FPhZSX4d3pJdkWnC0r4WjSSNqVWk7cK2pbJdl/hj+K4FiZDI0yqD6Xn/J8prbUTdBvfWomYvy1 9KVdNT76YnOQBcxnAqQEvQ+zGLZWmMTKwf+QmXNlGU2CoKAaJblFHL2dRHo+7vy/fyxOXHelqPUg cu3ixijpFEXJa09I/WZXjIPUveUVpDSLDxWj+vsSw1jz+Yl7iwuiRgEeLdRh4HIPx9z7T32xnb8x QdjZhbsqgxa26gFPYYW3ZALp9h5PtHW1IugIeCqGP0zvXq92lV85ut8M5AkM7pOSdIrF0/MCeB6r PoLbgzPiUoEG1+XDkkbBZtulJ6hKAmctn5ueJ8H8W0BuKYow3tCf6x+ORksauSjtLPHbJ1tRZKck oGxTDrm652RghJmIPwyN4LR3GnkhcSQKv3G4BNH2Z5ylNRKPvK00XLmwVEATrut4KHxZAYpNzj44 HH8= =ti9B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cgnlIxgVtkf51Wb1OBTgoxnFj4ghzFKXx-- From nobody Sat Apr 24 19:42:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19E03A2AF5 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.868 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.868 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.co.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b-dP4MiboYX8 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic310-12.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic310-12.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBC813A2AF2 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:42:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s2048; t=1619318563; bh=CR8HejMX1fdktCJw1MlibXhvUyCZOzhpY120I5qXd3U=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=f8tSh93NquqRVM4h5Aipdx7egsehzgKV4kU9mdK0WBADnTjGNYhRcLPf2NLk8rINEAK7R8pm/jggNBXAqa33lO+UZd72RZYnhYGWEWRnSHEDqBe5pG+HaPaeMDt0Z+gVUE4h7AwbZ3SL3TzsuxL8CwJLgWkVSrbVFdI4MXO12z3+elxBjrna/wi/MfcUM/pgOneOgFpYcfqQbIOCI2/3zUavCxnCTDseoO8/ViwnkInxMN1mVP9JUwuTKOxY/I37jCDf3fcyR/pEQa6NjotqlfcAAT3uzVhY4sslbH7y87l17oFFLHGGOT9ASDFY3E7JZ0F6u9sYEbK/AyLAHmHIeg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1619318563; bh=1jhffx+IIwAOalAhGaKBiRxissiyXgGDDJ325IJfzeM=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:Subject:Date:To:From:Subject; b=sowglounuG5UqOkDRbYy9UGHbwao6sIgvORU0kv/PKyNgU5a+Vvf1a/uMAIi0CZp+IWEwULqEHp5kuGIZkOorlkMGU3+AUgla7ruPzXzMTlescHw6f72jcNcIISda2/1J8aPohxKepImjh8fGNFZ3VPyBywYdGE4i1PflemCAG+0y1XtzFi/OFj2VVsJPBH3AaibgflUtAQH1VRHEQ3LzL00zl4zBMQhflxmJ7vmdzzPIOMVbKRN3ppf4uPzdNHy0MtQBTpaW0G5UCeKHLAP3f2aOePJ4m3Fp5Rq2WB9yH98268LG5bfuNeTuUtVeQGLmpJyJ78rCKI1KliA2Y4mCw== X-YMail-OSG: szGX9uAVM1k3d_p9T1H91ofMBc7jsxpNweqztFlEXIW.Oue.UUVfvqot6C0u.vT eLZLRG.1.QnfoVF68X7aCX1q8M_6Ot3r72r6BIodN2utcvv.c74wz55gxUZuIZW22EVIzbBRW.ui s1ohqR3Cy532Z7raPwwK4uoePorMbxqwPHd3Hc.hnl2uwgoRAw7QFXDQM8O5jS01KMg8MP7xL9aC q4Sm2627aSNQaJMOmEh37fzpzXrpiUxgoIjytV4yMSSiZBE1whSxb7EcR2WCNkrqKwQ63WsUC5cs vSQt0FXtA8HkWmSj2H.IAhzVJDJ.KznaeqfOdyqqELszSxMwqQuty1a43QcT6ES5Nc6ZoNhbE9HV h3nUg4oB4NM7prCCedf4hIOCruVESZzLbWGREbVhj_nOe.DSX38eByD4CbB8HpkZpY6FipeZf1sD 8Z3LfyImTFxZR_A1bYxCHAU0ChBY.d3q2AhpaZSYMkR1BXnk4zfRKd5m9oPkwNETWaQBh3jtxm58 hvtXzYsO_Bz2DIlIUnmoJu7_kAVk4_WgnybdLe_gppjUr9UHwNqHSSgYBt1WROtl4ahmlhnIS9k9 eZAQ6LJF9TMNcKlKuUGcRPMx3TgnseuYScHrWFRzyPGP.jbsGltS7ksW4b8tP8tptSq5DtxAucJy iqHrRVSHQcHKTu3y9vwJNQDz_ArMDAvKVycQKQkv4UD2Xhnv0bJKu4Sye94tsVON29lyuy7TfZ32 JEVSB1eIUHHymmfwO_iLXoXBwaFnwUuqzi7VPA09QoxZ_hViSvgwK3PWCfSDRSxujlFFTO6dOKhi p2sFnRYiUHjWIwA8MyUImyNJFATUmCm0OmSGyUcdXzLh.GHqkBxYLs72WGRFUrr001lgjg9E2TB6 vUQBg3JzictsHDuE.0AjrtMQf8biwANlcgsmyfE9FWo5h5RXfmOuIqWskcT5AnzFe8ij64EVqRAK 0KZxwnopRYNWkNvyy38vpO89qp201PiR3e1L_OoMgtFlsR6IjAoARXivrpBUJVxU.su6B7hbjQ2d rpjymgo3P9gB7hNP0yZJihp2hIsfpan0cuwRdB1FRGt.NyqWx5m3aUmMvBJ554VrAClo_f82tcAQ nuIq2wmSCK_bLqS794NCzihP0ptabMnt82gYznREr4GSYqPu9VVKg1iXeBVBFeYcFwOgJPi5kpqn OyLdET7yTUVHPwWvwaLoj5bA.9bzkEamTk.ZeoOLEXLwUsuVzDlAx.wdtL4kiEdcNjmR5HD4QELB dPOiQqAJhyPDJwTG.ACfqapgP1mS7gtMpN4CdP8Y0BYe8noHNppZZV1l.3ptsf0ylGKdju2hcv9s eTQ2.YVKE4pIzZBAZ4w.q.knqnITG_ahpPhy1kQN_eQ01dqG_bLTvYaGKJjWEhuiIlyuS0jWuvyd rIYQ8VQ.kTqsSX1ZHHnZcv78qWVV5HhcIsH_WG56TPeKGkErqxzgRDBK4ptm_l7AQKdX.6g.TGvl hw9RW7WtZQUSxSBhTn6v9Lp3EAWwRLDsd.jamHkONNrqMCBkPsc6wIAfgFZTyGxaSQvzsoKKosoR e5qSjCNZn1GpWGVjixi4eewTVrB0vfabDs86kNFBQ6rjKTZi_ewKp8wdr6Dlni.fqowfTI8RKU.w hnr7pw8jJIxOy7fedha0CnkuwCZZJsMegwhR35q8hT3sEdCd6UTDniDz3NaSkjrzOghVM9mbLStO wc16J81TzWUGiYA5nwe_o9hwSLFFpiWz64NCxWiR3MlBLps9w8cV4T1NkvC3Njxbw4hNB28SA9iL M_a8pSsag8BRqbBxTPXtUnkTpfSiLc8P2Jvw7OQjQ6KfAZ17ojcY964Ydz78UILomXuB8DHJWENm CdabmybdglsnW1fMeEiemlQulA0_oJ.IWkI8NikWqU4Hsg8SWVPamB7syOQctwGuJzy5lFfWLthS nfbTXBKpD2SaPWQMQesrhbOciciuk7Df_xeKyKnf22kMuM53zxXpqTGddYERZV5KiCLcPCQDsh6g 4H4ioXW8PeLiNMRm5kjYkEwAxn3kJAudljSCGorYtVd_EIwQ9NWx.yCb3gVvyEaHBb9BX0CUb25o aYKkCvXAtdLxMVYSRse7YyCq9TC64V_yx7IcOcefquBecCLVGhcsKXEsZApNqABkZ4VaNT1fnGuK aZuYLKkCrR4_v40CWNLC9D2ysJacGH8H7tpql6TfOgFco.RmbcSrNCaqg4D.PcoxCm5is1coK1Tr 7UgKatipUos80_i4oyVC8AZge9gmTfqEIdWS3evvTcSjY8eW5o_D4r4TbHR2u_tzr_4VJwULtzjJ IB2ZGRh7So65oDFYYKz9KAYzZUhIaRBJ6tOxCbNE7X.fj0UXQkAMfPKCik7XrFSZWsfrhfWsYr2u .QWkQETWFHMspDpFRPD6BKuc4rKpeXILCsULssSiI3b_e2LZCrxYOGcl2dNpvs129r_dxNKICK6z uMx3d6V9lgIlDmMeNbxDBMirYJuvwZQ6yyP.DtQ232BKI1WKITTiQqX8Rdd1u81nocROiWPrVSPl 7Ym2nZp_4q2G0QJ6JjFSOxlpFl0u.GdR1wJRjX4PhmQxLuoVenvbUtAaUanDK_G9CJCWAPo0zedr rfz8B_cK9jyA.gcyUAA1DbMX1ZCUF5HSnOi56p9dVKyrKGwudSg0C5xBrIXg- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 02:42:43 +0000 Received: by kubenode549.mail-prod1.omega.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ec484c72d9f30ffdde2d509ce7f3fba6; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 02:42:40 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lloyd W Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 12:42:36 +1000 Message-Id: References: Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, terminology@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18D70) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [Terminology] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 02:42:51 -0000 Stephen, "RFC 10984 on inclusive terminology obsoletes RFC 9184 on inclusionary termi= nology. This new product of the TERMINATOR (formerly TERM) workgroup specifi= cally adds the following terms, which are now discouraged from use: exclusive (and variants) fnord (not fjord! fjord is fine! [At this time.]) huxleyan (and variants) I'll be blocked orwellian (and variants) poison attack timestamp crank..." etc. curation for RFCs is not strictly set in stone, as you say. But with RFCs, t= he published list curation and modification process is rather more drawn out= , carefully thought out, and tedious, which is arguably a good thing, at lea= st until you're in the middle of arguing the next round of changes to be pub= lished. It's rather like trying to engrave one's own headstone. with a spoon= . If you start with any list, anyhow, that list will only grow. can someone please tell the RFC Ed to reserve RFC 9184 for TERM... Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > On 25 Apr 2021, at 11:02, Stephen Farrell wrot= e: >=20 >> On 25/04/2021 01:07, Lloyd W wrote: >> Stephen, >> an informational RFC including 'a few examples of terms' in itself >> constitutes a curated list, set in stone. >=20 > I don't agree. Set-in-stone !=3D curated. E.g., I have > no problem if we emit an RFC that recommends that > blocklist is currently considered better than blacklist > in almost all cases. From nobody Sat Apr 24 20:40:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2563A25A5; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:48:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.917 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4oinPv51SnJt; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www3.webmail.pair.com (www3.webmail.pair.com [66.39.3.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D44C3A25A0; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rc.webmail.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www3.webmail.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28A32C2EB9; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:48:00 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:48:00 -0400 From: reynolds@cogitage.pairsite.com To: Stephen Farrell Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, terminology@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <76310f57-0637-c5e0-c715-ee25785c7f11@cs.tcd.ie> References: <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> <76310f57-0637-c5e0-c715-ee25785c7f11@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.4.11 Message-ID: X-Sender: reynolds@cogitage.pairsite.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:40:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [Terminology] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:48:04 -0000 (I am a new subscriber, so I apologize in advance if I break any conventions. Thanks.) A couple of points concerning a list, I would think that any list of good words would have to say the bad words with which the good correlate. Otherwise one is in the position of a person trying to guess from contextuual clues what a redacted word might be. Which is common in living languages, but is difficult without some amount of shared context. But including the bad words leads to the problem of auto-filtering eliminating the list; which leads to the need for a special status by which bad words can be identified as being merely written about. (This is the usual problem of confusing meaningful use of a word versus merely talking about the word as a word, ie mentioning it. There is a lot of philosophy and logic about this. The usual solution is to distinguish mention cases by identifying with some or other quote mark--including finger quotes--any occurrence of a word being mentioned.) As for having a list, I think any occurrence can be taken to be a list, eg a singleton word-pair can be taken to be a one-member list, normal in computing. If the example is in regular prose writing, there is more context than there is for the usual idea of the efficiency of the list form. A hybrid could be a list entry being a word-pair plus a brief example usage. As for controversy, these are controversial times. If IETF wants some internal advice people--internal or exteral--can refer to, why not try to do one's part to help. Cheers. Tom On 24.04.2021 16:25, Stephen Farrell wrote: > On 24/04/2021 09:31, Lloyd W wrote: >> Stephen >> >> how can you support this if you think a list of bad terms is a >> mistake, which means that you don't support this? > > No that's not correct. The list is only one aspect of the > overall charter. > > I'm fine with a WG crafting an informational RFC that gives > us better guidance as to how to write better drafts, and am > ok that that includes a few examples of terms that are now > considered less good. > > I think a curated list of bad terms is a mistake because it > threatens to prolong and occasionally re-ignite controversies > around terminology. Secondly, no matter what opinion one > holds on any specific term, the risk exists that the list's > then curators have the opposite opinion at some future date. > So, I think it's a mistake to consider such a list from any > starting position. > > Cheers, > S. . . . From nobody Sat Apr 24 20:40:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053C43A2CB1; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:39:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HzmqcNsSt5yz; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme.net (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D2543A2CB0; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D96E29DD4B; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:39:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from episteme.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (episteme.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OXWSDnWO91iR; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:39:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [172.16.1.27] (episteme.net [216.169.5.102]) by episteme.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 19273E29DD14; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:39:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Pete Resnick To: Stephen Farrell Cc: terminology@ietf.org Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:39:23 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5795) Message-ID: <14001D13-CBFA-4A5A-9F15-933D02BFC6D5@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> References: <161918836800.7390.6996403788262551415@ietfa.amsl.com> <2563B42A-20A4-4A9F-B9CA-518A72A0A095@eggert.org> <219fd089-1d7c-88f9-c3c6-80872fd86319@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:40:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] WG Review: Effective Terminology in IETF Documents (term) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 03:39:35 -0000 [Chair hat] I'd really appreciate if people would remove gendispatch from the Cc line (or at least move it to a Bcc) unless you really think gendispatch needs to be part of this discussion. The TERM charter is not a gendispatch topic. Cheers, pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Tue Apr 27 09:55:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E07B3A16FA; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:55:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, kirsty.p@ncsc.gov.uk, lars@eggert.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.28.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <161954253397.19689.8487530975922152981@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:55:33 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] gendispatch - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 111 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 16:55:34 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Kirsty Paine, a Chair of the gendispatch working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: General Area Dispatch Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Kirsty Paine Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: artarea quic dispatch shmoo genarea Technology Overlap: secdispatch Key Participant Conflict: tcpm People who must be present: Pete Resnick Lars Eggert Kirsty Paine Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Apr 27 13:00:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C8A3A1E4B; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 13:00:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org, resnick@episteme.net X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.28.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <161955365346.16631.10358083452072363105@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 13:00:53 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] gendispatch - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 111 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 20:00:54 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Pete Resnick, a Chair of the gendispatch working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: General Area Dispatch Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Pete Resnick Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: genarea shmoo dispatch quic artarea emailcore iabopen term Technology Overlap: secdispatch Key Participant Conflict: tcpm People who must be present: Pete Resnick Lars Eggert Kirsty Paine Resources Requested: Special Requests: ---------------------------------------------------------